My Only Regret, My Only Request

[Leon]

My Only Regret, My Only Request (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6152)

And so, it is entirely understandable that so many of the messages to Rachel Barka'i, and so many of the messages from abroad that I have received, have been from the Jews in the Diaspora who have said that hearing of my experience has discouraged them from making Aliyah. Countless correspondents over these last nine months have made remarks to the effect that only a fool or a masochist would make Aliyah or even visit Israel; that Jews are safer outside of Israel - after all, in the last decade, more Jews have been murdered in Israel than the rest of the world; that Israel is the only country that legally forbids Jews from living in certain areas just because they are Jews; that the Israeli media is more anti-Jewish than any media in the West.

All this is true.

But my one regret is that so many Jews in exile are using my personal story as an excuse not to come home, that so many good Jews have conceded defeat to the anti-Jewish junta that rules in Israel.

Of course, if Germany or France or Iraq become hostile to Judaism, become corrupt, make life miserable for Jews, collaborate with Arab terrorists - that is a reason for Jews to cut off contact with those countries.

And when this happens in Israel, in the one country on G-d's Earth that we can call home - that is all the more reason for Jews to come to Israel, to return home, to do tikkun. When someone else's home is filthy, that is a reason to leave; when your own home is filthy, you clean it thoroughly. And, when necessary, you throw out the scoundrels who are responsible for the filth. But you don't abandon your home to those scoundrels.

Now, more than ever, we need to do serious Pesach cleaning in our national home. And we need Jews - Jews in the millions - to help us. We need Jews from the USA, from Britain, from everywhere - Jews who have lived as minorities and can therefore appreciate how precious it is to be a Jew, how precious our Jewish State is. We need a massive influx of Jews from the free world who have experienced life in democratic regimes, who will protest - here at home, not abroad - against the abuses of power.

And so, my one request of any Jew who has been disgusted by the Israeli establishment: take that disgust and channel it into Aliyah. That will be your personal contribution to sweeping the filth out of our collective home. That will be your personal victory over evil. One family - even one single Jew - who makes Aliyah will do more to cleanse Israel than all the protests from America.

One final thought. "If you see oppression of the poor, and justice and righteousness trampled in a country, do not be astounded," said King Solomon (Ecclesiastes 5:7). Corruption happens: it is human nature. The test of the individual is how he or she reacts to that corruption. Do you surrender or do you defeat it?

More than that. The Talmud tells us that "anyone who mourns for Jerusalem will merit to see it rejoicing" (Ta'anit 30A), which Rabbi Yosef Caro brings as practical Halacha (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 554:25). How much greater, then, will be the rejoicing of those who actively worked to rebuilt Jerusalem in justice?

The door is open, and we are waiting for you to come home.

[Jewscout]

Amen!:D

[Mishpacha]

:confused:
"Israel is the only country that legally forbids Jews from living in certain areas just because they are Jews"

Can someone clarify this?

[Hebrew Swede]

:confused:
"Israel is the only country that legally forbids Jews from living in certain areas just because they are Jews"

Can someone clarify this?

I think it means that the Jews of the West Bank are being removed by Israel from non-Israeli soil. What gives Israel this right?

[tzanchan]

I think it means that the Jews of the West Bank are being removed by Israel from non-Israeli soil. What gives Israel this right?
Better to leave them there minus the army/electricity/water/healthcare

[minusthejihad]

Better to leave them there minus the army/electricity/water/healthcare

So you want to see the same Jews die that your parents once begged to settle the land? Great. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Toga]

I think it means that the Jews of the West Bank are being removed by Israel from non-Israeli soil. What gives Israel this right?


The culture of the European simpletons/aka haters of Jews/Israel does not seem to change much.

The Judean and Samarian lands (West Bank) are the Jewish areas. There has never been a Palestinian Arab sovereignity. However, there had been a Jewish sovereignity over that area. Even the Hashemite family abdicated its sovereignity to Judea and Samaria. The Arabs who claim the Jewish land came to the area in search of employment opportunities to get the money from the Jewish businesses/feed their families. It is not any different migrant worker movement than the one of the Turks to Germany or the Moroccans to Belgium. Even today 1000s of Arabs cross the border into Israel to get work. The Jewish success in developing businesses and employing the Arabs is the Israeli demographic time bomb. It does not matter whether it is Samaria or Tel Aviv. Those who multiply demand the ownership of the land. While the Jews are good at creating welfare they are too busy and bad at producing more babies. The Arab claim to the land is highly disputed as the land is not legally determined. Even the UN, NOT a friend of Israel, recognizes that land as disputed. In the absense of legal determination of the land both Jews and Arabs have at least the same legal claim to the land.

[tzanchan]

So you want to see the same Jews die that your parents once begged to settle the land? Great. Thanks for clearing that up.
We begged for a state which we achieved. All of eretz yisrael was not necessary. Gaza is not in the state of Israel. You complain when the army moves them back into Israeli territroy so they wont die in Gaza without an army, and you also complain if we were to leave them at their own peril....

[tzanchan]

The culture of the European simpletons/aka haters of Jews/Israel does not seem to change much.

The Judean and Samarian lands (West Bank) are the Jewish areas. There has never been a Palestinian Arab sovereignity. However, there had been a Jewish sovereignity over that area. Even the Hashemite family abdicated its sovereignity to Judea and Samaria. The Arabs who claim the Jewish land came to the area in search of employment opportunities to get the money from the Jewish businesses/feed their families. It is not any different migrant worker movement than the one of the Turks to Germany or the Moroccans to Belgium. Even today 1000s of Arabs cross the border into Israel to get work. The Jewish success in developing businesses and employing the Arabs is the Israeli demographic time bomb. It does not matter whether it is Samaria or Tel Aviv. Those who multiply demand the ownership of the land. While the Jews are good at creating welfare they are too busy and bad at producing more babies. The Arab claim to the land is highly disputed as the land is not legally determined. Even the UN, NOT a friend of Israel, recognizes that land as disputed. In the absense of legal determination of the land both Jews and Arabs have at least the same legal claim to the land.If Israel wants legal claim of the territories, then they have to give legal citizenship to the palestinians of the territories. If Israeli doesnt want another million arab citizens, then it has no right to declare their land Israeli territory.

[physics]

If Israeli doesnt want another million arab citizens, then it has no right to declare their land Israeli territory.

Of course Israel doesn't need another million Arab citizens. But the territory changed hands, and Israel is the generous party in this case, because it considers giving most of it back.

BTW, i'd like to comment on your signature. Einstein didn't live long enough to see what the Arabs have done to Israel over the years. He'd realize that these aren't people of peace.

[Shangalla]

Your family ,your kin, your country.In that progression. I am not about to endanger the life of my family for a country that won't even give me a chance to defend myself. If Israel continues on the track it's on it will be annihilated and every woman and child in it exterminated.People that keep on screetching about how we all should move there and yet won't even open their yappers to try and change it to something that might survive make me sick.
Frag the alliah--let's talk about keping our children alive instead.

[Leon]

We begged for a state which we achieved. All of eretz yisrael was not necessary. Gaza is not in the state of Israel.

Neither is your little nest of Tel Aviv, according to your enemies. And thats what will keep this conflict going.

[Leon]

If Israel wants legal claim of the territories, then they have to give legal citizenship to the palestinians of the territories. If Israeli doesnt want another million arab citizens, then it has no right to declare their land Israeli territory.

No they don't. All what you need to do is transfer your hatred - directed at your own brothers - to the Arabs and ethnically cleanse them instead. Problem solved.

[CoinToss]

Did I ever told you about the OneBankOnePeople peace plan ? :O

[tzanchan]

No they don't. All what you need to do is transfer your hatred - directed at your own brothers - to the Arabs and ethnically cleanse them instead. Problem solved.
I have no hatred against any ethnicity. And in addition dont support ethnic cleansing.......

[mbczion]

We have a biblical/historical connection to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and Gaza....

Tel-Aviv is a man made city that was built at the beginning of last century.

If Gaza is not part of Israel, then neither is Tel-Aviv (even without taking into account the fact that to the Arabs all of Eretz Yisrael is really "occupied Palestine").

[Mediocrates]

It's representative of nothing but the first occurrence of a town named Tel Aviv is in Mesopotamia.

[Leon]

I have no hatred against any ethnicity. And in addition dont support ethnic cleansing.......

in other words, (even though you believe that "Gaza is not part of Israel") you were against the pull out?

[tzanchan]

We have a biblical/historical connection to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and Gaza....

Tel-Aviv is a man made city that was built at the beginning of last century.

If Gaza is not part of Israel, then neither is Tel-Aviv (even without taking into account the fact that to the Arabs all of Eretz Yisrael is really "occupied Palestine").
Having a 'bibilical connection' to gaza doesnt mean much in an area with over a million arabs living there for numerous generous generations that dont actually believe in the bible. It is unrealistic to request from them to live in a stateless territory dotted with israeli authority where Jews are present.

Tel-aviv---like every other city on earth-- is a man made city. It falls within Israels internationally accepted borders, demographically acceptable borders, and does not create any problem of dotting israeli authority in the middle of millions of non israel arabs.

[tzanchan]

in other words, (even though you believe that "Gaza is not part of Israel") you were against the pull out?
Being for the pull out does not equate hatred for any ethnicity. If supporters of the pull out hated Jews, they would have left them there without army and government support rather than spending millions of dollars to pull them out.

[Leon]

Harassment of Gush Katif Evictees Continues
16:41 Apr 23, '06 / 25 Nisan 5766
by Hillel Fendel

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=102358

Two former Gush Katif farmers say they're sick of unfulfilled government promises, and have decided to spend four hours a day holding a protest sign at a busy intersection.



"Olmert, the Disengagement has turned me into a vegetable," their sign says.

The two men, Avraham Ben-Hamu and Herzl Elazri, owned farms in the community of Bdolach (Crystal), just a few kilometers south of N'vei Dekalim. "I had 25 workers under me," Elazri told Arutz-7 today, "with 15 dunams [almost four acres] of a special type of yellow cherry tomato grown for export to Europe and the U.S. My wife also worked. And now? - there is no work, no solutions, and no one wants to talk to us. It's one thing to be thrown out of your home - but we could live with that, if only they would make good on their promise to give us back our livelihood."

Elazri said many of his Bdolach neighbors are in the same situation as him:
"We are living here in Nitzan, just south of Ashkelon, and yet the government
has offered us plots of land all the way down in the Halutza Sands area [along Israel's border with Sinai, south of the Gaza Strip]. In Bdolach, we worked two minutes away from home. At age 48, I can't start a totally new business from scratch in a place that's 45 minutes away!"

Elazri said that he has received a portion of his government-promised compensation payments, "but it's not anything near what we were promised. I need something to do! Our monthly expenses are very high, including buying totally new furniture and kitchen equipment, and yet I spend my days doing absolutely nothing. It's terrible for me, and it's bad for my children to see me this way."

Elazri's partner, Avraham Ben-Hamu, said he hopes that other displaced residents will join them in their initiative to stand in protest at the intersection.

Elazri said he is even considering writing to UNRWA - the United Nations Relief and Works Agency - to ask for its help in alleviating his suffering as a refugee.

Another family, thrown out of Moshav Katif and slated to live in Amatzia, was told to split up into two caravans. Contrary to promises given by the government's Sela [Aid to Gaza Evacuees] Administration, the family was assigned a 75-square-meter [807-square foot] caravan - instead of the 110 meters to which they are eligible. The mother of the family, Tammy, told Katif.net, "When we refused to take the 75-meter caravan, they wanted us to split up into two - half the family should sleep in one caravan, and half in the other."

This offer was made on the eve of the Passover holiday, when the family was told it had to leave the Shalom Hotel in Jerusalem. The family had been housed there for the past several months. After predictably refusing the split-up offer, the family was told it had to move to the Gold Hotel, "where we received three small rooms, with no place to put our stuff. We asked for another room, but were refused."

Tammy said that the government has "promised us that they will start enlarging our caravan this week; we have been promised many things, and can only hope that they will really finish it within a month and that our whole family will be able to spend the night together in one place."

Atty. Yossi Fuchs, of the Land of Israel Legal Forum that has been volunteering its legal services on behalf of the uprooted residents for more than a year, said in response:
"The State is not fulfilling its promise to provide temporary quarters for the evicted residents until their permanent homes are ready. The government is already talking about plans for another uprooting, but is unable to deal properly with those it uprooted the first time."

Meanwhile, after a short delay caused by the government's failure to live up to contractual agreements with Kibbutz Ein Tzurim, construction on temporary housing for evicted Netzer Hazani residents in Ein Tzurim continues. Some 60 families from N'vei Dekalim have already moved into the site, and several dozen more from Netzer Hazani are hoping to move in within a month or so. "We were promised that it would be ready for Passover, and now they're saying it will be before Shavuot," former Netzer Hazanite Aviel Tucker told Arutz-7. "Maybe this time it really will be ready."

Tucker said that he and his neighbors hope to build their permanent community outside Yesodot. "We will be pretty close to Yad Binyamin," he said, "where there is a large concentration of former Gush Katif residents, and Chafetz Chaim - where the uprooted residents of Ganei Tal hope to settle - is also close by. In addition, a larger bloc of new settlements of former Gush Katif people will be built in the Lachish region, near Kiryat Gat - and we hope that the new Highway 6 will be extended southward to that area so that we will be just a few minutes' drive away. But that's all for the future..."

[Leon]

I see, it wasn't ethnic cleasning, because you did them a "favor" for forcebully throwing them out of their homes (based on their ehtnicity and religion) & destroying their livliehoods.

You are sick.

[Leon]

Daniel Pinner Released from Prison
18:39 Apr 27, '06 / 29 Nisan 5766
by Hillel Fendel

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=102677


Daniel Pinner, serving 2 years in prison for firing in self-defense at an Arab mob, was released from prison today. High Court Justice Edna Arbel ruled that his appeal is "likely to succeed."


Pinner, 38, was sentenced just three weeks ago, after having sat in prison since last June. Today marks his first time out of prison since then, except for several trips to court hearings at the Be'er Sheva District Court.

"G-d's salvation comes in the twinkling of an eye," a thankful and jubilant Pinner told Arutz-7 as he left the prison. "I am so very grateful to all those people, Jews and Noachides, who prayed and said Psalms for me, and to my attorney Baruch Ben-Yosef for doing the impossible in getting me out, and to all those who wrote me letters and gave me support. My release today is in the merit of all of you!"

Daniel was convicted earlier this year of having injured an Arab in Gush Katif by shooting in the air when an Arab mob attacked him with rocks. A licensed electrician, Pinner was in Gush Katif at the time to volunteer his services in the refurbishing of the Palm Beach Hotel for new families. He was taking a walk on the beach when he was attacked by the mob, explaining later that his life was "clearly in danger." He fired in the air, and was arrested four days later on charges of having wounded one of the Arabs.

Following his sentencing earlier this month, Pinner's lawyer Baruch Ben-Yosef, hired by the Honenu Civil Rights Organization, filed both an appeal and a request for "stay of execution." Ben-Yosef explained to Arutz-7 that he was afraid that by the time the appeal might be heard, "Daniel's prison sentence might be over already... It is not common, but a judge who feels that the appeal has a good chance of succeeding can order the person freed until the appeal is heard."

To the lawyer's happy surprise, Justice Arbel not only agreed, but essentially ruled that the conviction was faulty on several counts - as Pinner and his lawyer had claimed all along.

Ben-Yosef, who now has three weeks to complete filing the appeal and its reasoning, said, "It turned out for the best on several counts, because if he had been freed several months ago before the conviction, he would have been held under house arrest - and then could still have faced two full years in prison."

Waiting outside the prison to greet Daniel were the Director of Honenu, Shmuel Medad, and Daniel's sister Dina, with whom he headed for Jerusalem. He plans to spend the night in his home in Kfar Tapuach in the Shomron, where he can expect a festive welcoming ceremony.

[physics]

Tel-aviv---like every other city on earth-- is a man made city. It falls within Israels internationally accepted borders, demographically acceptable borders, and does not create any problem of dotting israeli authority in the middle of millions of non israel arabs.

Your damm right! So We'd all appreciate it if you can tell that to the Palestinians, that majority of Israelis have legal a.k.a internationally approved claims to modern state Israel.

[physics]

Tzanchan, I think it's more important to convince Palestinians that 5 million Jews have legal claims to modern state Israel RATHER than trying to convince Israelis that Israel is absoutely not entitled to parts of West Bank.

[tzanchan]

I see, it wasn't ethnic cleasning, because you did them a "favor" for forcebully throwing them out of their homes (based on their ehtnicity and religion) & destroying their livliehoods.

You are sick.
That is what you support doing to the arabs isnt it?


In any case, I dont support throwing them out of their house. We could have just cut off Israeli services and stopped guarding them, and see how long they last. Would that be better for you?

[physics]

Hey guys, what do you think of Israel demolishing Palestinian terrorist homes?

I like the idea, it makes the sick bomber think about his family's future, and it makes the family think about preventing their sick child! cuz the $10,000's the families receives from terrorists orgs wont last long!:mad:

[Leon]

That is what you support doing to the arabs isnt it?

No actually its not, but when it comes to crunch time and I had to chose between the two, I know exacrtly who I would throw out.

What an irony, that those who propose ethnically cleansing a very hostile and muderous arab population, are condemned as inhumane extremists by the very same people who ethnically cleanse their own people - other Jews.



In any case, I dont support throwing them out of their house. We could have just cut off Israeli services and stopped guarding them, and see how long they last. Would that be better for you?

As oppossed to cutting off Israeli services - free electricity, free gas, free water, etc - that the hostile Arab population in the same area get? Not to mention the US$1 billon a year they get from Israel with all the free weapons they use to murder Jews? Free electricity to make more rockets and bombs?

Gee some of you Israelis are just so bright!

[tzanchan]

Hey guys, what do you think of Israel demolishing Palestinian terrorist homes?

I like the idea, it makes the sick bomber think about his family's future, and it makes the family think about preventing their sick child! cuz the $10,000's the families receives from terrorists orgs wont last long!:mad:
I would support it if it worked. However, studies from the army have shown that this tactic does not reduce the motivations of terrorist bombings, but the opposite. For every one potential terrorist who may be deterred by such a tactic, more terrorists are motivated to fight. Similar to the death penalty in the states, at the time of the crime, the punishment is not a significant thought and thus does not act as a deterrent.

[tzanchan]

No actually its not, but when it comes to crunch time and I had to chose between the two, I know exacrtly who I would throw out.

What an irony, that those who propose ethnically cleansing a very hostile and muderous arab population, are condemned as inhumane extremists by the very same people who ethnically cleanse their own people - other Jews.




As oppossed to cutting off Israeli services - free electricity, free gas, free water, etc - that the hostile Arab population in the same area get? Not to mention the US$1 billon a year they get from Israel with all the free weapons they use to murder Jews? Free electricity to make more rockets and bombs?

Gee some of you Israelis are just so bright!



First provide a source for where Israel gives arabs free electicity, gas and water otherwise I have no reason to respond to your lies. Palestinians do not recieve free electricity, free gas, or free water. Even the pro Israel CAMERA site claims that Israel sells Palis water at the same price as Israelis. In addition, all permits for digging wells in gaza goes through Israel, so they dont really have a choice but to go through Israel.... Though there wasnt any mention of gas and electricty on CAMERA, I would be interested to see where you pulled these other fibs from.

[Womble]

First provide a source for where Israel gives arabs free electicity, gas and water otherwise I have no reason to respond to your lies. Palestinians do not recieve free electricity, free gas, or free water. Even the pro Israel CAMERA site claims that Israel sells Palis water at the same price as Israelis.
Theoretically. In practice, the Palestinians aren't paying squat, and Israel cannot stop supplying them because of humanitarian considerations. I've posted a story about it here a while ago. There you go (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3208477,00.html). And there (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1138622518665):

Unmentioned in our public discourse, however, are the vast funds owed by the PA to Israel. This situation antedates all recent upheavals. No sooner was the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement signed in September 1995 did PA violations of economic relations protocols began to appear. Over time these breaches only grew until they reached anarchic proportions.

The Israel Electric Corporation's case, though not unique, is perhaps the most glaring. IEC supplies power to the PA both in the Gaza Strip and in Judea and Samaria. Its crews were assured safe passage throughout the territories in the 1995 protocols, but this was not guaranteed in practice. Hence IEC maintains the grid up to the entrance to Palestinian cities, and from there PA crews take over. Local officials are likewise responsible for directly billing customers.

Most Palestinians don't pay their bills and the PA doesn't pay IEC. The bottom line is that IEC, in effect, supplies power for free, though this power - including fuel, equipment, manpower and services - is unquestionably expensive. At this juncture, the PA's debt to IEC alone is a whopping NIS 220 million - the highest ever.

[tzanchan]

Theoretically. In practice, the Palestinians aren't paying squat, and Israel cannot stop supplying them because of humanitarian considerations. I've posted a story about it here a while ago. There you go (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3208477,00.html). And there (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1138622518665):

Unmentioned in our public discourse, however, are the vast funds owed by the PA to Israel. This situation antedates all recent upheavals. No sooner was the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement signed in September 1995 did PA violations of economic relations protocols began to appear. Over time these breaches only grew until they reached anarchic proportions.

The Israel Electric Corporation's case, though not unique, is perhaps the most glaring. IEC supplies power to the PA both in the Gaza Strip and in Judea and Samaria. Its crews were assured safe passage throughout the territories in the 1995 protocols, but this was not guaranteed in practice. Hence IEC maintains the grid up to the entrance to Palestinian cities, and from there PA crews take over. Local officials are likewise responsible for directly billing customers.

Most Palestinians don't pay their bills and the PA doesn't pay IEC. The bottom line is that IEC, in effect, supplies power for free, though this power - including fuel, equipment, manpower and services - is unquestionably expensive. At this juncture, the PA's debt to IEC alone is a whopping NIS 220 million - the highest ever.


This is probably why we should leave gaza, take the debts from Pali confiscated tax money, and let the Palis run their own grid lines and water as opposed to requiring them to go through Israel....

[physics]

I would support it if it worked. However, studies from the army have shown that this tactic does not reduce the motivations of terrorist bombings, but the opposite. For every one potential terrorist who may be deterred by such a tactic, more terrorists are motivated to fight.

Terrorists are motivated by other things than home demolitions....and their motivations truly reveal their stupidity and lack of care for human lives and even their own families...these are real sick people. If they want to fight, fine, they'll all be homeless soon.

[physics]

Suicide Bombers are true retards, they let some fanatic militans brainwash them enough to lack care of their family's future. There is no way to punish the bomber, but there are ways of punishing it's supporters.

[tzanchan]

Terrorists are motivated by other things than home demolitions....and their motivations truly reveal their stupidity and lack of care for human lives and even their own families...these are real sick people. If they want to fight, fine, they'll all be homeless soon.
No they wont, the practice was abolished after it proved to be a non deterrant.

[physics]

No they wont, the practice was abolished after it proved to be a non deterrant.

Ohhh, That's too bad. :(

So now that home demolition is abolished, terrorists still cotinue to target Israel, the families keep their house & get $10,000 from terror organizations...the Palestinian terrorists don't pay a price, while Israel gets bloody streets every once in a while.

[Leon]

First provide a source for where Israel gives arabs free electicity, gas and water otherwise I have no reason to respond to your lies. Palestinians do not recieve free electricity, free gas, or free water. Even the pro Israel CAMERA site claims that Israel sells Palis water at the same price as Israelis. In addition, all permits for digging wells in gaza goes through Israel, so they dont really have a choice but to go through Israel.... Though there wasnt any mention of gas and electricty on CAMERA, I would be interested to see where you pulled these other fibs from.


Its a fact that they get these services - especially eletcricity, free of charge. Its not something I pulled out of the air and no I didn't have any online sources to back me, and so I thank Womble for posting the articles.

They cant pay for the services that Israel supplies to them (in addition to the US$1 billion they get a year), so Israel gives it to them for free. And these services - alonging with the arms and funding that the ingenious past and present Israeli governments have given them - are essential elements needed in their mass genocide of the Jews.

[Leon]

This is probably why we should leave gaza, take the debts from Pali confiscated tax money, and let the Palis run their own grid lines and water as opposed to requiring them to go through Israel....

Yeh such a quick fix, band aid solution is really going to work. It only adds fuel to the fire and you think its water.

Mind you the Israeli govt has no intention of cutting any off any of those supplies - not any time soon anyway. Even if the tax money is confiscated, knowing how Israelis work under international pressure and how Palestinians conduct themselves, that money will find its way to the Hamas terrorist authority.

[tzanchan]

Yeh such a quick fix, band aid solution is really going to work. It only adds fuel to the fire and you think its water.

Mind you the Israeli govt has no intention of cutting any off any of those supplies - not any time soon anyway. Even if the tax money is confiscated, knowing how Israelis work under international pressure and how Palestinians conduct themselves, that money will find its way to the Hamas terrorist authority.


Better to force them to use the services of Israel-- a state which they are not citizens of-- and then complain that they wont pay their bills....

[Leon]

Better to force them to use the services of Israel-- a state which they are not citizens of-- and then complain that they wont pay their bills....

Better to force them to use free services (which aids them in accomplashing their genocidal goals) and than complain?

You really are a genius. You should be in the Israeli government, you will fit right in.

[physics]

So what is the real deal about electricity for Palestinians? is it free? if it is, then Palestinians have some nerve to continue their ideology.

Threatening to cut off electricity every once in a while could be a good tactic to make Palestinians think twice about their actions. In fact, Israel should not provide them at all, let them develop their own electricity or get it from someone else!:mad:

[physics]

Let Hamas provide electricity to their people, let's see how this genius group can handle real affairs...

[CoinToss]

Let Hamas provide electricity to their people, let's see how this genius group can handle real affairs...Breaking News
Hamas invented a new source of ecologic energy.
The "martyr power plant".
Thousand of volunteers to martyrdom are gathered from all over Occupied Territories of Palestine(piss be upon it). Fastened with explosive belts and let them explode. The Martydom Energy(ME) is converted to common electric energy and broadcasted in every home.
Iran is willing to give 40.000 volunteers for the cause.

[physics]

Haha, Cointoss!:D

But seriously, Israel should let Palestinians provide their own electricity. I wouldn't offer my services to people who send rockets and suicide bombers to my cities, people who hate me. I wouldn't take the blood money, and certainly not provide services for free. :rolleyes:

[tzanchan]

So what is the real deal about electricity for Palestinians? is it free? if it is, then Palestinians have some nerve to continue their ideology.

Threatening to cut off electricity every once in a while could be a good tactic to make Palestinians think twice about their actions. In fact, Israel should not provide them at all, let them develop their own electricity or get it from someone else!:mad:
We should let them run their own electicity. But to do this they need to have access to the power grid which is in their area. They do not have any access to the electric lines, though one can not expect them to run their own affairs. In addition they do not need to 'develop electricity'. There was electricity in the area before the state of Israel. It is not an Israeli brought invention.

[tzanchan]

Better to force them to use free services (which aids them in accomplashing their genocidal goals) and than complain?

You really are a genius. You should be in the Israeli government, you will fit right in.
Right better to cut off water, electricity and gas to a civilian population comprising a few million people....

[tzanchan]

if palestinians get gas for free like Leon claims, how come they have their gas cut off when they dont pay their bills? Could it be another lie from Leon?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-05-10-gas-palestinians_x.htm?csp=34

[KettleWhistle]

Right better to cut off water, electricity and gas to a civilian population comprising a few million people....

YES! So that they are forced to leave our land.

[tzanchan]

YES! So that they are forced to leave our land.
gaza city is not our land........

[KettleWhistle]

gaza city is not our land........

It was, and it should've been. And if since it's not, there ought to be no electricity, water, or fuel supply from Israel to that area.

[tzanchan]

It was, and it should've been. And if since it's not, there ought to be no electricity, water, or fuel supply from Israel to that area.
it was our land 2000 years ago which is of no consequence today.


now it is not our land and then by that same logic we should give them control of the electricity, water, and fuel supply to that area, which we do not.... The Palestinians did not choose to have Israel as the only source to these resources.

[KettleWhistle]

It is of great consequence today because that land is a part of our native land, the place where our blood was brewed. It is like a part of France to the French, or a part of Germany to the Germans. Except that it was taken over by foreigners.

And, I agree, Israel should cut off all the utilities, and the let the Arabs do whatever they want.

[tzanchan]

It is of great consequence today because that land is a part of our native land, the place where our blood was brewed. It is like a part of France to the French, or a part of Germany to the Germans. Except that it was taken over by foreigners.

And, I agree, Israel should cut off all the utilities, and the let the Arabs do whatever they want.
we were not native to Israel. We conquered it 2000 years ago from the now extinct phillistines.

Again, you continue posting as if it is axiomatic that a 'nation' retains eternal ownership over a certain land for all of eternity. Most peoples these days dont live on the land of their ancestors, and it is not a moral right to retake these lands.

[KettleWhistle]

we were not native to Israel. We conquered it 2000 years ago from the now extinct phillistines.

We didn't conquer anything 2000 years ago from Philistines.


Again, you continue posting as if it is axiomatic that a 'nation' retains eternal ownership over a certain land for all of eternity. Most peoples these days dont live on the land of their ancestors, and it is not a moral right to retake these lands.
It is axiomatic. And most people these days do live on their ancestoral lands. Perhaps not on all of their ancestoral lands, but on most. The Land of Israel is our ancestoral land. We have no other. And when we gain control of it, like we did with Gaza and Judaea and Samaria, it is our moral duty to expel the foreigners and do whatever we can to retain it for its native population--us. It is axiomatic.

[Mediocrates]

The Palestinians did not choose to have Israel as the only source to these resources.


They had about 60 years to get prepared. Even by Hurricane Katrina standards of inefficiency and graft, that's a lot. This truly speaks to their key failure, or success as it were. Failure is their success.

[tzanchan]

We didn't conquer anything 2000 years ago from Philistines..You are right, the phillistines came after. In any case, point still stands:

"The Hebrews migrated into Canaan circa 1200 BCE, a time when the great powers of the region were neutralized by troubles of various kinds. In their initial attacks under Joshua, the Hebrews occupied most of Canaan,"

Whatever you call the original canaanites, they werent hebrew. We moved there, and defeated the 'natives'. This directly contradicts your axiomatic theory of native lands.



It is axiomatic. And most people these days do live on their ancestoral lands. Perhaps not on all of their ancestoral lands, but on most. The Land of Israel is our ancestoral land. We have no other. And when we gain control of it, like we did with Gaza and Judaea and Samaria, it is our moral duty to expel the foreigners and do whatever we can to retain it for its native population--us. It is axiomatic.
The canaanites are the native occupants of this land. We migrated to here 2000 years ago. Migration is not immoral. And saying that we have a right to live on our ancestral lands as an axiom is rubbish. There is no moral basis for this. Before migrating to canaan, my ancestors were in egypt.
Americans do not live on their native lands.South africans dont live on their native lands. In addition, much of europe does not consist of ethnic germans living in germany, ethnic brits in england, ethnic french un french...

[tzanchan]

They had about 60 years to get prepared. Even by Hurricane Katrina standards of inefficiency and graft, that's a lot. This truly speaks to their key failure, or success as it were. Failure is their success.
electricity, water lines, and gas existed in gaza before Israel took over. The fact that we dont allow them to run these resources does not make it their 'failure'

[KettleWhistle]

You are right, the phillistines came after. In any case, point still stands:

"The Hebrews migrated into Canaan circa 1200 BCE, a time when the great powers of the region were neutralized by troubles of various kinds. In their initial attacks under Joshua, the Hebrews occupied most of Canaan,"

Whatever you call the original canaanites, they werent hebrew. We moved there, and defeated the 'natives'. This directly contradicts your axiomatic theory of native lands.


The canaanites are the native occupants of this land. We migrated to here 2000 years ago. Migration is not immoral. And saying that we have a right to live on our ancestral lands as an axiom is rubbish. There is no moral basis for this. Before migrating to canaan, my ancestors were in egypt.
So? It is the same for every nation. A people comes in, displaces, kills, or interbeeds with the locals, and then settles there. We settled in the Land of Israel. That's how our nation was born. We lived here for some 1500 years. That's where and how our nation matured. This is axiomatic and needs no other explanation. Unless you believe that the French have to be expelled from France because some Muslims don't like their culture.


In addition, much of europe does not consist of ethnic germans living in germany, ethnic brits in england, ethnic french un french...Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Russians, Czecs, Slovaks, Serbs, Bosnians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Portugese, and pretty much every other European ethnicity live on their native land, in their sovereign. If you are not educated enough to comprehend the process of birth and maturity of nations, go do some reading.

[Mediocrates]

The Midianites were probably Herbews. So you may have a claim the region around Eilat going back to the time of Abraham. In case you were wondering......But I see your point. Basically it just comes down to practical realities. Do you have an advantage holding on to that shrub or this rock? But be very very very careful lest you start standing on the same mushy moralistic grounds as your enemies. They have the same reasoning as this, it's only their timescale that's different. Make sure you don't make yourselves גֵּרְשֹׁם , stranger. Do you see?

[Mediocrates]

electricity, water lines, and gas existed in gaza before Israel took over. The fact that we dont allow them to run these resources does not make it their 'failure'


It sort of does. The argument that big bad Jews won't let us, tends to sound foolish in the real world. There's always a way to do something other than fail. Failure is something societies choose even if it's nonrational.

For a good reference: Jared Diamond has a great deal to say about societies that make suicidally bad decisions.

[Mediocrates]

South africans dont live on their native lands.


Neither do Palestinians either. Live by the sword, die by the what' good for the gander, I always say.

[tzanchan]

So? It is the same for every nation. A people comes in, displaces, kills, or interbeeds with the locals, and then settles there. We settled in the Land of Israel. That's how our nation was born. We lived here for some 1500 years. That's where and how our nation matured. This is axiomatic and needs no other explanation. Unless you believe that the French have to be expelled from France because some Muslims don't like their culture..So, Israel was not our native land. You said it was axiomatic to live on out native land.....What you say justifies the palis goals. If they displace/kill the jews and survive long enough they will have the land they want and build their nation....



Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Russians, Czecs, Slovaks, Serbs, Bosnians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Portugese, and pretty much every other European ethnicity live on their native land, in their sovereign. If you are not educated enough to comprehend the process of birth and maturity of nations, go do some reading.

You left out north america.... The native americans dont have an axiomatic right to form a state on america.

[tzanchan]

The Midianites were probably Herbews. So you may have a claim the region around Eilat going back to the time of Abraham. In case you were wondering......But I see your point. Basically it just comes down to practical realities. Do you have an advantage holding on to that shrub or this rock? But be very very very careful lest you start standing on the same mushy moralistic grounds as your enemies. They have the same reasoning as this, it's only their timescale that's different. Make sure you don't make yourselves גֵּרְשֹׁם , stranger. Do you see?
We conquered canaan. What is considered 'native' land is just dependent on kettlewhistle's/ hamas' start of history. Similarly what is considered an axiomatic moral right is just kettlewhistle claiming on an internet forum 'it is our right to live on our native land'

[tzanchan]

It sort of does. The argument that big bad Jews won't let us, tends to sound foolish in the real world. There's always a way to do something other than fail. Failure is something societies choose even if it's nonrational.

For a good reference: Jared Diamond has a great deal to say about societies that make suicidally bad decisions.
The power grid is connected to Israel. Oil imports are controlled by Israel. Water sources are controlled by Israel. Tax money is controlled by Israel. The fact that they went through Israel for all these sources is not necessary the result of failing as opposed to losing the wars. In any case without a state it is difficult to run these services.

[KettleWhistle]

So, Israel was not our native land. You said it was axiomatic to live on out native land.....What you say justifies the palis goals. If they displace/kill the jews and survive long enough they will have the land they want and build their nation....
Exactly! Because this is how it works for every single nation out there.


You left out north america.... The native americans dont have an axiomatic right to form a state on america.Yes, they do. They just don't have neither people nor desire to do that.

[Mediocrates]

We conquered canaan. What is considered 'native' land is just dependent on kettlewhistle's/ hamas' start of history. Similarly what is considered an axiomatic moral right is just kettlewhistle claiming on an internet forum 'it is our right to live on our native land'


Then it's not their right either, is it? It's something you negotiate.

[Mediocrates]

The power grid is connected to Israel. Oil imports are controlled by Israel. Water sources are controlled by Israel. Tax money is controlled by Israel. The fact that they went through Israel for all these sources is not necessary the result of failing as opposed to losing the wars. In any case without a state it is difficult to run these services.


Then all the more reason not to rise up and kick over the beehives. For 50 years we've heard they won't talk, won't act, only kill kill kill. Ok, that's why many of those infrastructure problems you list exist.

[tzanchan]

Exactly! Because this is how it works for every single nation out there. .So you are saying that like it there is a moral equivalent between the hebrews conquering canaan 2000 years ago and the palestinians trying to conquer now to similarly develop a nation?



Yes, they do. They just don't have neither people nor desire to do that.

So you wouldnt see anything wrong with the native americans demanding americans move back to their 'native lands'?

[tzanchan]

Then it's not their right either, is it? It's something you negotiate.
exactly. But kettle thinks that there is no need to negotiate because it is 'axiomaticly' hebrew land.

[Mediocrates]

Need and possible are two different things. I submit if there really is no one to negotiate with then you can whip up whatever rationale you want. It really doesn't matter. Jews have been wandering the earth for 2000+ years and now they have a home. Does it matter 'when' they left the first time? No. Nor does it matter in the least whether it was one day or 1000 years either. They're there now and that's that. If they believe that it's theirs and they can effectively hold on to Yesha or most of it or a part of it then fine, that's what they will try to do. If not? Then you've got to figure out what to do next because all of these arguments about the moral highground are just ludicrous and silly. It matters not at all what you think you're entitled to or even what you're NOT entitled to. It matters what you can hold and develop and make something of. You could retreat all the way back to the 1948 lines and it wouldn't matter in the least to the Palestinians who think of 'their homeland' as having existed from Cairo to Baghdad the day before Israel was created. See their timescale is just different. You look back 2000 years they look back 50. Makes no difference either way - one is no more "moral" whatever the hell that means, than the other. And the Palestinians know this.

[tzanchan]

Need and possible are two different things. I submit if there really is no one to negotiate with then you can whip up whatever rationale you want. It really doesn't matter. Jews have been wandering the earth for 2000+ years and now they have a home. Does it matter 'when' they left the first time? No. Nor does it matter in the least whether it was one day or 1000 years either. They're there now and that's that. If they believe that it's theirs and they can effectively hold on to Yesha or most of it or a part of it then fine, that's what they will try to do. If not? Then you've got to figure out what to do next because all of these arguments about the moral highground are just ludicrous and silly. It matters not at all what you think you're entitled to or even what you're NOT entitled to. It matters what you can hold and develop and make something of. You could retreat all the way back to the 1948 lines and it wouldn't matter in the least to the Palestinians who think of 'their homeland' as having existed from Cairo to Baghdad the day before Israel was created. See their timescale is just different. You look back 2000 years they look back 50. Makes no difference either way - one is no more "moral" whatever the hell that means, than the other. And the Palestinians know this.


"Moral" is what is considered the right thing to do for humanity. Kettlewhistle considers it a moral right for the jews to live on their 'native land'. In addition most here on IF consider the Jewish side much more "moral" than the other. In the end it makes a great difference who is morally right. If not, then why need Israel? We could have all abandoned our moral customs of Judiasm, assimilated into european/american/arab society and have no real reason for the state, let alone Israel forum....

[KettleWhistle]

"Moral" is what is considered the right thing to do for humanity. Kettlewhistle considers it a moral right for the jews to live on their 'native land'. In addition most here on IF consider the Jewish side much more "moral" than the other. In the end it makes a great difference who is morally right. If not, then why need Israel? We could have all abandoned our moral customs of Judiasm, assimilated into european/american/arab society and have no real reason for the state, let alone Israel forum....

We need Israel for the same reason as to why the Russians need Russia, Turks need Turkey, Germans need Germany, etc... It is our people's homeland. That's why. It has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with survivability and normality.

[tzanchan]

We need Israel for the same reason as to why the Russians need Russia, Turks need Turkey, Germans need Germany, etc... It is our people's homeland. That's why. It has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with survivability and normality.


Every ethnic turk, russian, german does not need to live on their 'ethnic homelands' to survive. Ethnic homeland is a meaningless phrase depending on where you start history. You constantly pull it out to defend your extremist unethical nationalist rhetoric: Settlers attacked arabs-- "good it will get them off our ethnic homeland; Jew killed prime minister-- "good he gave away our ethnic homeland." In reality these are despicable acts, and if used in any other 'ethnic homeland', they would be equally ridiculous.... For example, ethnic russians in russia attacking 'non natives' for the sake of the 'ethnic motherland'.

50,000 years ago my ancestors were not living in Canaan yet. Is that my ethnic homeland? Or does history only start 2000 years ago. In any case, it is certainly not prerequisitethat all people live in this 'ethnic homeland'. If an ethnic turk was born and raised in germany, it is as much as his right to live there as it is for an ethnic german.

[tzanchan]

It has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with survivability and normality.


Morality is a concept to preseve our survivability and normality. It is immoral to kill because our survivablity depends on the idea that one can not kill freely.

[KettleWhistle]

Every ethnic turk, russian, german does not need to live on their 'ethnic homelands' to survive. Ethnic homeland is a meaningless phrase depending on where you start history. You constantly pull it out to defend your extremist unethical nationalist rhetoric: Settlers attacked arabs-- "good it will get them off our ethnic homeland; Jew killed prime minister-- "good he gave away our ethnic homeland." In reality these are despicable acts, and if used in any other 'ethnic homeland', they would be equally ridiculous.... For example, ethnic russians in russia attacking 'non natives' for the sake of the 'ethnic motherland'.

Yep, you're just a troll. You can go on saying "why" to every single axiomatic statement, like a four year old, but unless you are in fact four years old, you are trolling.

I never said that ALL people have to live on their ancestoral homeland. But nations have every right to do so. Your claims about your ancestors not living on the Land of Israel 50,000 years ago are just absurd. There was no Russia 900 years ago. So what? It is there now. Their nation exists, evil as it may be. It is their right to defend their homeland against any foreigners that try to take over it. Likewise there was no Italy 500 years ago. There was no Germany. There was no France 800 years ago. So according to you these states have no right to maintain their territorial integrity just because they started at some point in past by some warring tribes coming in and expelling whomever.

[Leon]

Right better to cut off water, electricity and gas to a civilian population comprising a few million people....

No better supply an entire murderous hostile population in their bid to kill you...

Like I said your a genius. Now go work for the government.

[Leon]

if palestinians get gas for free like Leon claims, how come they have their gas cut off when they dont pay their bills? Could it be another lie from Leon?
Contact: Henry Greener
Email: henry@camelogue.com.au
Phones: (03) 9509 8241 Mobile: 0419 519 607



When I said "gas," I didn't mean gas as in petrol (as Americans like to refer it to):

From wikipedia:

The term "gas station" is mostly particular to the United States and Canada, where petrol is known as "gas" or "gasoline." Elsewhere in the English-speaking world the form "petrol station," "petrol pump," or the old-fashioned term "petrol garage" is used. In the United Kingdom the single noun garage is still commonly used, even though the petrol station may have no service/maintenance facilities which would justify this description. Similarly, in Australia, the term service station ("servo") describes any petrol station. In some regions of America, filling stations usually have a mechanic on duty, but this is uncommon in other parts of the world.


I refered to the gas which you use to power your stove, hot water and heating. I never mentioned petrol.

[tzanchan]

Yep, you're just a troll. You can go on saying "why" to every single axiomatic statement, like a four year old, but unless you are in fact four years old, you are trolling.

I never said that ALL people have to live on their ancestoral homeland. But nations have every right to do so. Your claims about your ancestors not living on the Land of Israel 50,000 years ago are just absurd. There was no Russia 900 years ago. So what? It is there now. Their nation exists, evil as it may be. It is their right to defend their homeland against any foreigners that try to take over it. Likewise there was no Italy 500 years ago. There was no Germany. There was no France 800 years ago. So according to you these states have no right to maintain their territorial integrity just because they started at some point in past by some warring tribes coming in and expelling whomever.


And you could go on calling every statement you are unable to defend an axiom.

In any case it is a very jewish trait to ask 'why', in addition to ethics, another jewish trait absent to you.

Right, there was no russia, italy, and france x number of years ago, but eventually they migrated and birthed there. Now they have a right to live there. Similarly arabs migrated and birthed in the area of Canaan/ Israel/Palestine, and now they also have a right to live there, without being considered 'foreigners'.

"So according to you these states have no right to maintain their territorial integrity just because they started at some point in past by some warring tribes coming in and expelling whomever"

No, I said they dont have the right to expel preset day residents in the name of preserving territorial integrity.

[tzanchan]

No better supply an entire murderous hostile population in their bid to kill you...

Like I said your a genius. Now go work for the government.
Better to label a population numbering a few million as entirely murderous.

[KettleWhistle]

No, I said they dont have the right to expel preset day residents in the name of preserving territorial integrity.

They do, and they have. Plenty of Germans were kicked out of neighboring countries at the end of WWII. It is normal and accepted for everyone, except for the Jews.

[tzanchan]

They do, and they have. Plenty of Germans were kicked out of neighboring countries at the end of WWII. It is normal and accepted for everyone, except for the Jews.
No we accepted kicking out arabs in 48 in war. In 2006 when Israelis are more at risk from israeli drivers then an arab village, it is not acceptable. I dont see any nation-states kicking out foreigners nowadays either.

[KettleWhistle]

I don't see any nation-states having large numbers of foreign populations living within their historical borders either.

[CoinToss]

No we accepted kicking out arabs in 48 in war. In 2006 when Israelis are more at risk from israeli drivers then an arab village, it is not acceptable. I dont see any nation-states kicking out foreigners nowadays either.You are a real axhole.
Lebanon was dedicated to be a majoritarily christian state. Muslims were 45% of the population. Nowadays, there is 70% of muslims and counting. I know many lebanese christians who fled their country because of that.

DO YOU WANT THE SAME FORE ISRAEL ?
DO YOU WANT ANOTHER MUSLIM STATE ?
DO YOU WANT THE JEWS TO WANDER AGAIN ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_people#Religious_Population_Statistics

[tzanchan]

I don't see any nation-states having large numbers of foreign populations living within their historical borders either.


European nation states have large numbers of immigrants from their colonial past living in their countries. There are large numbers of moroccans/ tunisians in france, etc. I have citizenship to germany. If I so chose to live there,they would not be justiifed to expel me.

[tzanchan]

You are a real axhole.
Lebanon was dedicated to be a christian state. Muslims were a 25% minority.
Nowadays, there is 60% of muslims and counting. I know many lebanese christians who fled their country because of that.

DO YOU WANT THE SAME FORE ISRAEL ?
DO YOU WANT ANOTHER MUSLIM STATE ?
DO YOU WANT THE JEWS TO WANDER AGAIN ?

Use of ad hominem attacks to further your argument...well done....

So you dont want another muslim state, but support annexing large amounts of territory which has been under arab control with an arab majority for hundreds of years (nablus, tulkarem, jericho, gaza)?

[CoinToss]

Use of ad hominem attacks to further your argument...well done....

So you dont want another muslim state, but support annexing large amounts of territory which has been under arab control with an arab majority for hundreds of years (nablus, tulkarem, jericho, gaza)?
If the palos get their own state, I want no arab(or very little) in Israel.
That's my point.

[tzanchan]

If the palos get their own state, I want no arab(or very little) in Israel.
That's my point.
If the arabs want israeli citizenship that is their choice. If the settlers also want pali citizenship that is their choice. You have no right to expel one born on the land if they are willing to accept citizenship of the controlling state.

[CoinToss]

If the arabs want israeli citizenship that is their choice. If the settlers also want pali citizenship that is their choice. You have no right to expel one born on the land if they are willing to accept citizenship of the controlling state.As soon as a palestinian state will be declared, millions of descendants of refugees, born in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt and whose nationality have never accepted will be expelled.

Israel must expell the arabs exactly the same way.
Being democratic does not mean getting screwed.
2 countries=2people. One jewish and one arab. The rest is wanking.

[tzanchan]

As soon as a palestinian state will be declared, millions of descendants of refugees, born in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt and whose nationality have never accepted will be expelled.

Israel must expell the arabs exactly the same way.
Being democratic does not mean getting screwed.
2 countries=2people. One jewish and one arab. The rest is wanking.


So you want to lower yourself to the level of the arabs....

[KettleWhistle]

So you want to lower yourself to the level of the arabs....

It is not "lowering" to anyone's level. It is called "being pragmatic."


European nation states have large numbers of immigrants from their colonial past living in their countries. There are large numbers of moroccans/ tunisians in france, etc. I have citizenship to germany. If I so chose to live there,they would not be justiifed to expel me.
First of all, it not nearly that many immigrants. Secondly, they don't try to take over parts of the country to establish their own state because they lost some war in the middle of the 20th century. And lastly, if you were threatening German security, national identity, and/or territorial integrity, they could revoke your citizenship.

[CoinToss]

So you want to lower yourself to the level of the arabs....Yes pliz. Let's lower.

Even lowered, we won't kill, we won't maim, we won't rape, we won't ever be as low as the arabs. Keep cool, we have some margin ^^

[tzanchan]

It is not "lowering" to anyone's level. It is called "being pragmatic."


First of all, it not nearly that many immigrants. Secondly, they don't try to take over parts of the country to establish their own state because they lost some war in the middle of the 20th century. And lastly, if you were threatening German security, national identity, and/or territorial integrity, they could revoke your citizenship.
Expelling one native born to a land, because their ancestors hundreds of years ago were migrants to the land is lowering oneself to the level of arabs. Since not all arab israelis are acting against the state, one cannot revoke their citizenship...

[CoinToss]

Expelling one native born to a land, because their ancestors hundreds of years ago were migrants to the land is lowering oneself to the level of arabs. Since not all arab israelis are acting against the state, one cannot revoke their citizenship...
You don't want to expell an arab, but you say nothing when a jew is expelled.
Eat sheet, u bastard.

My parents were expelled from Tunisia, all their properties have been stolen. Jews were in Tunisia long before the arabs.
Now, I want a jewish state with no arab, I want jews to have a home forever and you can just STFU !

[tzanchan]

You don't want to expell an arab, but you say nothing when a jew is expelled.
Eat sheet, u bastard.

My parents were expelled from Tunisia, all their properties have been stolen. Jews were in Tunisia long before the arabs.
Now, I want a jewish state with no arab, I want jews to have a home forever and you can just STFU !
Blacks commited crimes against whites in america. Now I want to commit crimes against blacks......Good logic you got there, Arabs in tunisia commited a crime, so we could commit a crime against unrelataed arabs in Israel for spite...

Oh wait, my argument is not as strong as yours because I didnt incluide "eat sheet, u bastard and STFU!!!!!!!!

[CoinToss]

Blacks commited crimes against whites in america. Now I want to commit crimes against blacks......Good logic you got there, Arabs in tunisia commited a crime, so we could commit a crime against unrelataed arabs in Israel for spite...

Oh wait, my argument is not as strong as yours because I didnt incluide "eat sheet, u bastard and STFU!!!!!!!!YOU are short of argument.
My arguments were so strong that they collapsed your little neurones.
Reading your post, it becomes obvious that you are intellectually limited.

Jews like you are one of the causes of the Holocaust.
Suicide yourself if you want, but don't drag your brothers into the grave.

[tzanchan]

YOU are short of argument.
My arguments were so strong that they collapsed your little neurones.
Reading your post, it becomes obvious that you are intellectually limited.

Jews like you are one of the causes of the Holocaust.
Suicide yourself if you want, but don't drag your brothers into the grave.
This post is not an argument. "STFU, you axehole" is not an argument. I want to kick out all palestinian arabs from israel because tunisians kicked out jews is an argument, just not a very good one.

[physics]

Look, Israel must remain a state of Jews, and needs to have a tight grip on the Arabs, whether good or bad. If Palestinian state is created, i'd wouldn;t mind the Israeli Arabs leaving.

[physics]

If Pal state is created, then I would prefer Israeli Arabs to leave for that new state.

Israeli Arabs can't be true citizens, because they can't ever sing Hatikva with emotions. Face it, Israeli Arabs may be satisfied with the material aspects of Israel, but certainly not the emotional.

[CoinToss]

This post is not an argument. "STFU, you axehole" is not an argument. I want to kick out all palestinian arabs from israel because tunisians kicked out jews is an argument, just not a very good one.
Your conception leads to 23 arabs countries and no jewish country.
My conception leads to 21-22 arabs countries and 1 jewish country.


You treator. Discussion closed.


-

[physics]

The message should be clear: Jews are in charge of Israel, Israeli Arabs must always accept this. If they don't like it, let them strive for a Palestinian state and go.

[physics]

The native Americans lost power to Europeans. They can either accept it peacefully or fight an endless futile battle for regaining power. Times change.

Israeli Arabs can either accept Israel's existence peacefully, or continue to be full of hopeless dreams.

[Leon]

Better to label a population numbering a few million as entirely murderous.

No, a population who overwhelmingly voted in Hamas (concidentally after Israel made its most painful concession by ethnically cleansing their own people to appease the Arabs) and continues to be brainwashed by their government in murdering Jews at the cost of the Israeli tax payer, is entirley innocent. We shouldn't label them, just like we shouldn't label the majority of Germans during the Nazi period. No, that wouldn't be politically correct.

Rather than "label" these peaceful people, we should continue to give them billions of dollars, weapons, free education, free healthcare, free electricaty, free gas and assist them in their bid to wipe us out.

[Leon]

So you want to lower yourself to the level of the arabs....

speaking of "labelling," not to mention downright racism.

[Leon]

The native Americans lost power to Europeans. They can either accept it peacefully or fight an endless futile battle for regaining power. Times change.

Israeli Arabs can either accept Israel's existence peacefully, or continue to be full of hopeless dreams.

Lets not fool ourselves - if anything its the Jews who are the "Native Americans." After all you can't call muslim settlers and their descendents from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia Turkey etc "native." Arafat who was born an egyptian to egyptian parents, was certainly not a native. Neither was Hanan Ashwari - born to Greek and Lebanese parents. Neither were the Syrian Arabs who mass murdered the Jews of Hebron and than took their homes away from them. And so the list goes on and on.

We have thousands of years of history behind us. We have a very deep spiritual connection to the land. They have neither. So they are colonialists and we are the natives.

[tzanchan]

Your conception leads to 23 arabs countries and no jewish country.
My conception leads to 21-22 arabs countries and 1 jewish country.


You treator. Discussion closed.


-


That post makes no sense. How does my conception lead to the dissapereance of the Jewish state, when my existence defends the jewish state in the army, while you sit in Paris....

[tzanchan]

The native Americans lost power to Europeans. They can either accept it peacefully or fight an endless futile battle for regaining power. Times change.

Israeli Arabs can either accept Israel's existence peacefully, or continue to be full of hopeless dreams.
The fact that native americans lost the war, doesnt justify the war that was brought against them.

In addition I am not comparing the birth of the US to Israel. Only when one is moronic enough to use the 'ethnic land' axiom argument.

[tzanchan]

Lets not fool ourselves - if anything its the Jews who are the "Native Americans." After all you can't call muslim settlers and their descendents from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia Turkey etc "native." Arafat who was born an egyptian to egyptian parents, was certainly not a native. Neither was Hanan Ashwari - born to Greek and Lebanese parents. Neither were the Syrian Arabs who mass murdered the Jews of Hebron and than took their homes away from them. And so the list goes on and on.

We have thousands of years of history behind us. We have a very deep spiritual connection to the land. They have neither. So they are colonialists and we are the natives.

I was comparing the jews to the native americans. I was saying it is as ridiculous to say the the native americans have a right to expel new yorkers because they are 'native', as it is to expel arabs now because they are not 'native'.

Throwing out two names of 'non natives' does not really prove anything, when there were still hundreds of thousands of palis in the area a hundred years ago.
In addition where did you read that syrian arabs perpetuated the hebron massacre? There were arabs in hebron as well.

[tzanchan]

speaking of "labelling," not to mention downright racism.
you are the ones who said you want to treat arabs like arabs treat palis in neighboring countries....

[tzanchan]

No, a population who overwhelmingly voted in Hamas (concidentally after Israel made its most painful concession by ethnically cleansing their own people to appease the Arabs) and continues to be brainwashed by their government in murdering Jews at the cost of the Israeli tax payer, is entirley innocent. We shouldn't label them, just like we shouldn't label the majority of Germans during the Nazi period. No, that wouldn't be politically correct.

Rather than "label" these peaceful people, we should continue to give them billions of dollars, weapons, free education, free healthcare, free electricaty, free gas and assist them in their bid to wipe us out.
How do you know that the majority of Palis voted hamas as a gesture of support of suicide bombings or as a gesture of support for the great financial they recieved from hamas? I am pretty sure that with the current financial situation there would be a difference in the numbers if one were to take a poll now.

[CoinToss]

That post makes no sense. How does my conception lead to the dissapereance of the Jewish state, when my existence defends the jewish state in the army, while you sit in Paris....You fight for a future arab state. Good for you.

Within the 20 next years, the israeli society will be either overcame by arab claims for more power in Israel. They will have over 25 seats in the knesset.
Or overcame by a civil war, provided in weapons by any arab/muslim terror group.
Or even demand another state on Galilea. (La peau de chagrin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_peau_de_chagrin))
It is not a supposition, it's an evidence.

Arab demography is killing Israel. The intifada from the inside won't late.
Keep turning a blind eye to it. You'll wake up once, it will be too late.

[CoinToss]

How do you know that the majority of Palis voted hamas as a gesture of support of suicide bombings or as a gesture of support for the great financial they recieved from hamas?How do you know that the majority of the Germans voted Hitler as a gesture to support genocide of millions jews or as a gesture of support for the great financial they recieved from the Nazi party ?

You know what, I don't give a damn for the answer while the consequences are the same.

[tzanchan]

You fight for a future arab state. Good for you.

Within the 20 next years, the israeli society will be either overcame by arab claims for more power in Israel. They will have over 25 seats in the knesset.
Or overcame by a civil war, provided in weapons by any arab/muslim terror group.
Or even demand another state on Galilea. (La peau de chagrin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_peau_de_chagrin))
It is not a supposition, it's an evidence.

Arab demography is killing Israel. The intifada from the inside won't late.
Keep turning a blind eye to it. You'll wake up once, it will be too late.

Thats great. Perhaps I should go AWOL and flee to Paris...

[CoinToss]

Thats great. Perhaps I should go AWOL and flee to Paris...
We have enough moonbats here, thx.

[physics]

I was comparing the jews to the native americans. I was saying it is as ridiculous to say the the native americans have a right to expel new yorkers because they are 'native',

Bingo! U said it! If it's ridiculous for native Americans to try to throw out New Yorkers, it's ridiculous for Hamas to try to throw Israelis out of their modern land. But yet, Hamas is 'legitimate' right?:mad:

[physics]

We have thousands of years of history behind us. We have a very deep spiritual connection to the land. They have neither. So they are colonialists and we are the natives.



if anything its the Jews who are the "Native Americans."

Exactly! Jews can throw both the historical and modern connections in everyone's faces whether they like it or not! The Native American comparison to Jews is not identical!

[Leon]

you are the ones who said you want to treat arabs like arabs treat palis in neighboring countries....

And I'm not the one whose acting all sanctimonious. Thats the catch.

[Leon]

How do you know that the majority of Palis voted hamas as a gesture of support of suicide bombings or as a gesture of support for the great financial they recieved from hamas? I am pretty sure that with the current financial situation there would be a difference in the numbers if one were to take a poll now.


JMCC Poll of Palestinians: 56.2% support suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians (http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=28550)


75% of Palestinians support suicide bombing, majority support terrorism even after statehood (http://www.likud.nl/extr291.html)

even the extreme leftist rag Al-Haaretz, confirms my so called "prejudice" or sterotyping of Palestinians - Poll: Majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=242592&contrassID=1&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y)


Some 63 percent of 1,200 Palestinians surveyed said suicide bombings should continue, and only 17 percent said they oppose the intifada, 26 months of violence that has claimed the lives of 1,997 Palestinians and 685 Israelis. Eighty percent said the intifada should continue.


Any more proof?

How silly and naive can one get?

Sure, the financial/non-corruption side of things - Hamas does run schools, hospitals etc - did play a part. But so does the terror that Hamas has launched, courtesy of the incitement that occurs in the territories under the Palestinian Authority thanks to the Israeli government who foot the bill with the Israeli tax payer. The Gaza withdrawal certainly didn't help things.

[Leon]

[QUOTE=tzanchan]I was comparing the jews to the native americans.

oops.



I was saying it is as ridiculous to say the the native americans have a right to expel new yorkers because they are 'native', as it is to expel arabs now because they are not 'native'.

Your point? The Jews didn't expel anyone.



In addition where did you read that syrian arabs perpetuated the hebron massacre? There were arabs in hebron as well.

The Arabs who committed the Hebron massacer were mostly new arrivals from Syria. Such a thing is unsual for most "Palestinians."

[tzanchan]

Bingo! U said it! If it's ridiculous for native Americans to try to throw out New Yorkers, it's ridiculous for Hamas to try to throw Israelis out of their modern land. But yet, Hamas is 'legitimate' right?:mad:
I said it was both equally ridiculous for hamas to try to throw out Israelis as it was for israelis to try and throw out arabs.


" Hamas is 'legitimate' right"

I dont suppose you have a source for this supposition? Or is it another one of your red herring/ad hominem attacks?

[tzanchan]

JMCC Poll of Palestinians: 56.2% support suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians (http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=28550)


75% of Palestinians support suicide bombing, majority support terrorism even after statehood (http://www.likud.nl/extr291.html)

even the extreme leftist rag Al-Haaretz, confirms my so called "prejudice" or sterotyping of Palestinians - Poll: Majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=242592&contrassID=1&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y)


Some 63 percent of 1,200 Palestinians surveyed said suicide bombings should continue, and only 17 percent said they oppose the intifada, 26 months of violence that has claimed the lives of 1,997 Palestinians and 685 Israelis. Eighty percent said the intifada should continue.


Any more proof?

How silly and naive can one get?

Sure, the financial/non-corruption side of things - Hamas does run schools, hospitals etc - did play a part. But so does the terror that Hamas has launched, courtesy of the incitement that occurs in the territories under the Palestinian Authority thanks to the Israeli government who foot the bill with the Israeli tax payer. The Gaza withdrawal certainly didn't help things.


If 63% support suicide bombings on civilians, then there are about .37*5 million palestians that dont.....

[scattergood]

If 63% support suicide bombings on civilians, then there are about .37*5 million palestians that dont.....

But you are ok with a society in which nearly 2:1 they favor the indescriminate killing and targeting of civilians?

[CoinToss]

If 63% support suicide bombings on civilians, then there are about .37*5 million palestians that dont.....Loth asked G-od if he would save Sdom for ten righteous inhabitants.
Maybe we should ask him, if there is ten righteous inhabitants in 'palestinian' territories.
However, I am pretty sure of the answer....

[Leon]

If 63% support suicide bombings on civilians, then there are about .37*5 million palestians that dont.....

I never knew a morally and intellectually challanged person could be capable of making me so speechless

[tzanchan]

But you are ok with a society in which nearly 2:1 they favor the indescriminate killing and targeting of civilians?
no.

[tzanchan]

Loth asked G-od if he would save Sdom for ten righteous inhabitants.
Maybe we should ask him, if there is ten righteous inhabitants in 'palestinian' territories.
However, I am pretty sure of the answer....
.37*5mil= >10....

[tzanchan]

I never knew a morally and intellectually challanged person could be capable of making me so speechless
ad hominem arguments are quite successful in Israel Forum.

[CoinToss]

.37*5mil= >10....
63% support bombing civilian even if retaliation.
37% support bombing civilian only if no retaliation(?)

Never an arab said that killing cilivians as civilian is immoral.
They say "suicide-bombing brings nothing to the palestinian people".

Not sure we have 10 palos left...

[tzanchan]

63% support bombing civilian even if retaliation.
37% support bombing civilian only if no retaliation(?)

Never an arab said that killing cilivians as civilian is immoral.
They say "suicide-bombing brings nothing to the palestinian people".

Not sure we have 10 palos left...
really, is that how the questioning was phrased or are you just assuming that to further your argument?

In any case, how many Israelis supported expelling civilian populations in 1948 for the betterment of the Jewish people? Ben gurion did. I do. Benny Morris does. Israel forum does....

[KettleWhistle]

In any case, how many Israelis supported expelling civilian populations in 1948 for the betterment of the Jewish people? Ben gurion did. I do. Benny Morris does. Israel forum does....

There is nothing wrong with expelling foreigners. And expelling them in no way equates to killing them.

[CoinToss]

In any case, how many Israelis supported expelling civilian populations in 1948 for the betterment of the Jewish people? Ben gurion did. I do. Benny Morris does. Israel forum does....
This was not genocidal. And moreover the arabs had a lot of area for the refugees. They refused land to their own brothers ? Not our problem, specially when they take us as only responsible for their plight.
For the arabs we should have kept wandering forever.

Try not to compare what is not comparable.
Would you compare the "nakba" to the shoah ?
I hope not !

[tzanchan]

There is nothing wrong with expelling foreigners. And expelling them in no way equates to killing them.
There is something wrong when one considers a foreigner one that was born on the very land. Oh I forgot, it is axiomatic that all peoples lived on the lands of their ancestors 2000 years ago. Where ones ancestors lived 200 years ago of no relavence. Where ones ancestors lived 3000 years ago of no relevance. Its pretty lucky Jews lived in Israel 2000 years ago so it could become only our land....

[KettleWhistle]

Israel is a Jewish state, for Jews, by Jews. Everyone else is a foreigner. There are Jews who lived in France before France was France. These Jews are French, and are foreigners there. And France has every right to expell them to Israel because it is their homeland, not ours.

P.S. so how was your "nakba" celebration?

[tzanchan]

This was not genocidal. And moreover the arabs had a lot of area for the refugees. They refused land to their own brothers ? Not our problem, specially when they take us as only responsible for their plight.
For the arabs we should have kept wandering forever.

Try not to compare what is not comparable.
Would you compare the "nakba" to the shoah ?
I hope not !
And we also refused to allow back arabs to their houses whether they were innocent from fighting or not. Yet you take the arabs for not accepting all the refugees as only responsible because they were unwilling to take in stranger arabs to their country. In any case we could justify the expulsions and killings that took place of innocent people as a necessity of war which it was. Regardless, the survey did not say that 37.5 % oppose suicide bombings because they are not helpful to the pali cause. Yet I am sure 37.5% of Israelis would justify deir yassin which aided in the flight of the arabs and consequently the opening of the roads as a justifiable act. Where is the upper moral level? To support killing a certain number of innocent arabs to 'establish a safe Jewish state' free from a fifth column or when arabs kill innocent jews to end 'the occupation of the jewish state'?

[tzanchan]

Israel is a Jewish state, for Jews, by Jews. Everyone else is a foreigner. There are Jews who lived in France before France was France. These Jews are French, and are foreigners there. And France has every right to expell them to Israel because it is their homeland, not ours.

P.S. so how was your "nakba" celebration?
You could declare as much as you want on IF that France, Iran, Mexico etc have the right to expel their 'jewish foreigners'. That does not make it so. The fact that Jews lived in Iran 1500 years ago and not 2000 years go does not make Persian Jews foreigners in Iran.

P.S. I was on guard duty on the 'nakba'. To bad I didnt get a chance to do something honorable like spit on rabins grave instead.

[KettleWhistle]

You could declare as much as you want on IF that France, Iran, Mexico etc have the right to expel their 'jewish foreigners'. That does not make it so.
My declaration doesn't make it so. In case of France or Iran, the common sense and historical reality do. Mexico, most certainly, has not such right, since it is not a nation-state, and like the U.S. or Canada, belongs to all the people who live there, regardless of their ethnic background. Such is not the case with the nation-states like France, Germany, Italy, Russia, etc.

[CoinToss]

Israel is a Jewish state, for Jews, by Jews. Everyone else is a foreigner. There are Jews who lived in France before France was France. These Jews are French, and are foreigners there.Someone can convert to judaism and become a true jew.
In the same way, someone can convert to "francity" and become a true french.


And France has every right to expell them to Israel because it is their homeland, not ours.This is especially stupid while over 60% of the frenchs are from Portugal, Spain, Italia, Poland.
France should expell them too ?
They properly converted to "francity" and are not to be expelled, same for the Jews.
Moreover you don't expell people to a country menaced of destruction.

Your discourse totally lacks of ethics.

[CoinToss]

You could declare as much as you want on IF that France, Iran, Mexico etc have the right to expel their 'jewish foreigners'. That does not make it so. The fact that Jews lived in Iran 1500 years ago and not 2000 years go does not make Persian Jews foreigners in Iran.
You are just mixing EVERYTHING.

The israeli arabs behave like stranger in Israel and hate Israel.
And they try to overcome it with a high birthrate.
So they failed to integrate Israel(read my former post). Citizenship is not only owing a house and paying taxes. Israeli passport is of no use if one hates Israel.

On the other hand most of the jews are loyal to their country of adoption.
As a jew, if I hated France, I would be honest enough to leave it.
There is nothing common.

And what you call expulsion is more of a separation.
Because Jews have the right self-determining on a land, they have the right to live there in majority. If it means expelling hateful arabs a little bit further, what's the problem.
Especially when this can be done peacefully and with financial helps.

[KettleWhistle]

Someone can convert to judaism and become a true jew.
In the same way, someone can convert to "francity" and become a true french.

I didn't know that undergoing a ritual changes one's DNA.


This is especially stupid while over 60% of the frenchs are from Portugal, Spain, Italia, Poland.
France should expell them too ?
They properly converted to "francity" and are not to be expelled, same for the Jews.
France is the country of French. It is up to them, not up to us what they do within their country. And it is their natural right to expell any foreigners back to their homeland, be these foreigners Jews, Portugese, Spanish, or Poles.

[CoinToss]

I didn't know that undergoing a ritual changes one's DNA.You don't recognize convertion ?


France is the country of French. It is up to them, not up to us what they do within their country. And it is their natural right to expell any foreigners back to their homeland, be these foreigners Jews, Portugese, Spanish, or Poles.That's where you understand nothing.
What is to be french ?? Is it genetic ? Is cultural ? Is it being christian ?

First france is a mixing between Celts, Romans, Burgonds, Basques, Wisigoths, Gauls, Normands and many more ancient people (from mixed origin themselves). Even some Jews. Thus, their is no genetic sense about all that.

Secondly, France appeared about with Clovis/Charlemagne in the 8th century.
France was all about christiany and royalty until the French revolution. Then the very sense of being french changed a lot.

Being french is firstly to defend the "Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen".
Secondly to respect the french history and customs.
Thirdly, it's to defend the french values abroad and the country in time of war.

I am from a very ancient french family. My ancestors have fought for France for generations. War of 1870, WWI, WWII. I respect the values of this country and I like them. When I am in Israel, I stand as a french and in france as a jew. My difference is my richness and I want to spare what's better in it with everbody.

Do you understand something in all that KW ?

[Mediocrates]

I have no problem at all with allowing the Sabras to turn Israel into a state where Jews are a segregated minority afforded second class status. It's their country, at least for now. Let them devolve it however they wish. If they want to allow 3 million unemployed Palestnians in and turn the state religion to Islam and outlaw Hebrew that's their problem. We've lived for thousands of years w/o Israel and long after it's gone we'll still be here.

[tzanchan]

You are just mixing EVERYTHING.

The israeli arabs behave like stranger in Israel and hate Israel.
And they try to overcome it with a high birthrate.
So they failed to integrate Israel(read my former post). Citizenship is not only owing a house and paying taxes. Israeli passport is of no use if one hates Israel.

On the other hand most of the jews are loyal to their country of adoption.
As a jew, if I hated France, I would be honest enough to leave it.
There is nothing common.

And what you call expulsion is more of a separation.
Because Jews have the right self-determining on a land, they have the right to live there in majority. If it means expelling hateful arabs a little bit further, what's the problem.
Especially when this can be done peacefully and with financial helps.
The israeli arabs have failed to integrate, but that does not give us the right to expel them. We could give them their own state and take away their citizenship, but to physically remove them from the land they lived on because they dont want to live under the state that came to them is not as ethical.

"And what you call expulsion is more of a separation.
Because Jews have the right self-determining on a land, they have the right to live there in majority. If it means expelling hateful arabs a little bit further, what's the problem.
Especially when this can be done peacefully and with financial helps

We did not however suceed in transfering them peacefully. They for the most part did not take our financial help.

[tzanchan]

I have no problem at all with allowing the Sabras to turn Israel into a state where Jews are a segregated minority afforded second class status. It's their country, at least for now. Let them devolve it however they wish. If they want to allow 3 million unemployed Palestnians in and turn the state religion to Islam and outlaw Hebrew that's their problem. We've lived for thousands of years w/o Israel and long after it's gone we'll still be here.
The great majority of sabras dont favor the right of return for palis. Most favor them having a state in the west bank.

[CoinToss]

The israeli arabs have failed to integrate, but that does not give us the right to expel them. We could give them their own state and take away their citizenship, but to physically remove them from the land they lived on because they dont want to live under the state that came to them is not as ethical.
Very well. I can understand this. Like permanent guests then.
I am OK with that.

But on the other side, as a host, we are allowed to expell the hostile guests.
Ahmed Tibi or Azmi Bishara for example. What do you think ?

[tzanchan]

Very well. I can understand this. Like permanent guests then.
I am OK with that.

But on the other side, as a host, we are allowed to expell the hostile guests.
Ahmed Tibi or Azmi Bishara for example. What do you think ?
A border should be created where the most greatest amount of jews would be placed on the Israeli side and the greatest number of arabs on the pali side. Thus, the triangle which accounts for nearly 30% of Israeli arabs should be given to Palis and geographically logical settlements should be placed on the Israeli side. Those minorites on either side should also be given the opportunity for that sides citizenship.

[Leon]

ad hominem arguments are quite successful in Israel Forum.

I wasn't trying to throw insults or mean that in a derogatory sense. There is after all, nothing wrong with being a little slightly challanged - we are all human and we all have our weaknesses. Mine for example is grammar, I really have to work on my grammar...

[TDidier]

Israel is a Jewish state, for Jews, by Jews. Everyone else is a foreigner. There are Jews who lived in France before France was France. These Jews are French, and are foreigners there. And France has every right to expell them to Israel because it is their homeland, not ours.

P.S. so how was your "nakba" celebration?

What a big amount of BS!

ps. 1999: 700.000 who claimed to be jews in France
in 2007: 800.000 will claim to be jews in France...Just have to wait for the official numbers:cool:

[Mediocrates]

What does 'claim' mean. Because honestly if the French Jews here are generally a representation, we don't need all of you.

[CoinToss]

What does 'claim' mean. Because honestly if the French Jews here are generally a representation, we don't need all of you.
Didier is not jewish.



What a big amount of BS!

ps. 1999: 700.000 who claimed to be jews in France
in 2007: 800.000 will claim to be jews in France...Just have to wait for the official numbersQu'est-ce qu'il faut pas lire comme aneries...
40% de marriage mixtes et 5000 juifs qui s'expatrie chaque année, dont 3000 vers Israel.
Avec taux de fécondité legerement supérieur à2.
On devrait arriver à675.000.

[TDidier]

Didier is not jewish.

Aarrrgh ! I'm demasqued!


Qu'est-ce qu'il faut pas lire comme aneries...
40% de marriage mixtes et 5000 juifs qui s'expatrie chaque année, dont 3000 vers Israel.
Avec taux de fécondité legerement supérieur à2.
On devrait arriver à675.000.

5000 per years? Maybe.

But don't forget that there is 4.5M people who define themself as "atheists". Among them, a lot of former jews will probably claim their jewishry due to the formidable pressure they endured those last years from inside as well as outside France.

Then wait for the official publication of the next recensement.

[Mediocrates]

I still want to know what 'claim' means.

[CoinToss]

Among them, a lot of former jews will probably claim their jewishry due to the formidable pressure they endured those last years from inside as well as outside France.Pauvre connard.

[TDidier]

Pauvre connard.

Peux-tu argumenter svp ?


ps: Ah mais c'est pas gentil ça!!

[CoinToss]

Peux-tu argumenter svp ?

ps: Ah mais c'est pas gentil ça!!Cette formidable pression typique de la manigance juive. La fameuse identité juive, insoluble dans la république. C'est la pourriture mentale habituelle.
Personne n'emmerde les bretons qui se sentent bretons, alors pourquoi les juifs ?

De plus, je suis absolument certain que tu n'as pas un exemple pour étayer ta thèse. Roger Hanin, Gérard Miller, Jean Benguigui, Edgar Morin ? Aucun n'a changé de manière penser.

Par ailleurs on peut parfaitement etre juif et athé.
La religion juive n'oblige pas àcroire mais encourage àrespecter un certain nombre de principes moraux(ex. les 9 commandements) et de coutumes(ex. la séparation du lait et de la viande) dont l'objectif n'est pas toujours clair.

Bref, ton post était merdique.

[Leon]

Seeing that my vocabulary in French only extends to one word - Merde - could you two out of a simple courtesy to myself and others, speak only in English?

S'il vous plaît with sugar on top?

[CoinToss]

S'il vous plaît with sugar on top?Saupoudré de sucre-glace ? Tout de suite monsieur :)

[TDidier]

Cette formidable pression typique de la manigance juive. La fameuse identité juive, insoluble dans la république. C'est la pourriture mentale habituelle.
Personne n'emmerde les bretons qui se sentent bretons, alors pourquoi les juifs ?

De plus, je suis absolument certain que tu n'as pas un exemple pour étayer ta thèse. Roger Hanin, Gérard Miller, Jean Benguigui, Edgar Morin ? Aucun n'a changé de manière penser.

Par ailleurs on peut parfaitement etre juif et athé.
La religion juive n'oblige pas àcroire mais encourage àrespecter un certain nombre de principes moraux(ex. les 9 commandements) et de coutumes(ex. la séparation du lait et de la viande) dont l'objectif n'est pas toujours clair.

Bref, ton post était merdique.

About "formidable pressure", I wanted to speak about the rising of anti-semitism among young arabs (internal pressure) and the numerous call to alya from sionists movement in Israel and US (external pressure).

Par contre je pense vraiment qu'il existe une "réserve" de gens provenant des athés (4.5M tout de même) qui pourraient créer la surprise sur le nombre de juifs en France en se déclarant comme juif lors de la présente campagne de recensement, ce qui est àmon sens une réelle volonté citoyenne de peser sur le cours des évênements. C'est un caractère trés français de savoir se lever au milieu de la tempête et crier: j't'emmerde... En cela ils sont juifs et trés français.

[CoinToss]

C'est un caractère trés français de savoir se lever au milieu de la tempête et crier: j't'emmerde... En cela ils sont juifs et trés français.Shameful jews rest shameful and proud jews rest proud, whatever the political/social situation.
Maybe some half-jews(out of a mixed marriage), who consider themselves as non-jews would claim being so for exeptionnal and for unclear reasons. But it corresponds to nothing.
The real number of jews in France is decreasing.

[TDidier]

S'il vous plaît with sugar on top?

Vous voulez faire fumer le cigare àune taupe ?! :eek:

[MGB8]

Keep it in English or Hebrew, please.

[KettleWhistle]

You left out north america.... The native americans dont have an axiomatic right to form a state on america.

Here's an article on the subject:

Don’t Burn My Flag
By David Yeagley
FrontPageMagazine.com | March 23, 2001

“F�K YOU, this is still Mexico,� says a popular LED-illuminated sign appearing in car windows on California highways.

The sign refers to the fact that much of the American Southwest belonged to Mexico until the U.S. siezed it in 1846.

Now some Mexicans want the land back. As a Comanche Indian, I have a problem with that.

We Comanches pushed the Spaniards out of Texas and eastern New Mexico over 200 years ago. Neither Spaniards nor Mexicans ever managed to return.

Comanches used to ride across the Rio Grande every fall to attack Mexican villages, killing, scalping, plundering and carrying off captives and livestock.

“Upwards of ten thousand head of horses and mules have already been carried off,� wrote one English eyewitness. “…everywhere the people have been killed or captured… ranchos barricaded, and the inhabitants afraid to venture out of their doors.�

The truth is, Mexicans were helpless against us. So where did they get this idea that they used to own our land?

One of their arguments is that the American Southwest is really “Aztlan,� the original Aztec homeland. They say that some distant ancestors of the Aztecs wandered through here in prehistoric times.

Well, even if that’s true, what does it prove?

According to the CIA World Factbook 2000, 30 percent of Mexicans are Indian, 60 percent mestizo (part Indian, part Spanish) 9 percent white and 1 percent other.

Of that 90 percent who are fully or partly Indian, some no doubt have Aztec ancestors. But how many? And which ones? Nobody knows. Spaniards and Indians have been intermarrying for almost 500 years in Mexico and the Aztecs were just one tribe out of many.


No matter. Aztec is in. On the website of the Nation of Aztlan, members of the so-called Revolutionary Council are listed with Aztec names such as Cuahtemoc and Moctezuma.

All this reminds of my trip to Mexico in 1993. I was one of thirty American Indian Ambassadors sent down under a Kellogg fellowship program for Indian leadership training.

It was a fascinating trip. But, to this day, I’m still wondering what the point of it was.

The group leaders – most of whom were white – kept telling us we had to build solidarity with Mexico’s “indigenous� people. But we couldn’t see the purpose. We were American Indians. What did we have to do with Mexico?

One day in Cuerna Vaca we listened to an elderly gent with few teeth, who was introduced as a shaman, but resembled a homeless man from New York’s lower East Side.

While he extolled unity of all indigenous peoples everywhere, the black bark incense he kept burning drove me out of the room coughing and choking.

In Mexico City, we saw a troupe of “Aztec� dancers. I’m afraid we didn’t connect with them either. Actually, we felt kind of sorry for them. No one was watching their dance, and, to be honest, it wasn’t that great. A lot of slow-motion arm waving, and not much legwork or rhythm. They’d never cut it at a Comanche pow-wow.

Someone told me this troupe had learned these “authentic� Aztec dances from American Indians somewhere up in Texas. Hmmm.

Don’t get me wrong. I like Mexican people just fine. But I sure don’t like Mexicans calling my land “Aztlan� and saying it belongs to them.

Another thing I don’t like is people burning the American flag, as a mob of violent Mexican demonstrators did Last Fourth of July outside a veterans’ cemetery in Los Angeles.

“Mexicans have every right to be here,� said Augustine Cebeda of the militant Brown Berets de Aztlan. “This land was stolen from us.�

Well, I guess the Mexicans can try to take it back if they want. But we Comanches remember how they fared the last time around. It wasn’t anything to brag about.

If push comes to shove, I’ll be standing with the Anglos this time. One thing whites and Indians have in common: We respect the American flag.

Go to any pow-wow, and watch how those Indians honor the flag. At the annual Red Earth festival here in Oklahoma City, the vets step in first, in uniform, carrying Old Glory proudly, its pole surmounted by the head of a real bald eagle.

It’s enough to send chills down your spine.

Those Mexican radicals can call themselves “Aztecs� if they want. But they’re not going to connect with me by burning bark incense.

And they’re sure not going to connect with me by burning my flag.

[Mediocrates]

14% of all Mexicans live in the US.

[Leon]

Free Atzlanastine

[CoinToss]

Free Atzlanastine
Sick smiley missing

[rachamim18]

Toga: While Scripturally you are indeed correct, the geopolitical realities of the region translate into soemthing quite a bit different. Kadimah is ABSOLUTELY correct in its core values and platform. Do the math. there is no way that Israel could ever hope to make that area viable as apart of Israel, annexed or otherwise. The Arab birthrate is their secret weapon. If Israel holds onto it, it has to annex tha land as it can no loner hope to deny the Arab residents the same rights enjoyed by Israeli citizens. Ergo, it would need to annex the land. If it did so, the high Arab birthrate would negate the Zionist character of Israel within 2 generations, perhaps as soon as the next generation. Therefore the Arabs would defeat Israel simply by virtue of the annexation of the "West Bank."

Kadimah is indeed correct in its move to unilateraly set Israel's borders . this gives Israel a great advantage, nothaving to submit to Arab demands and/or International Mediation on the issue.

I am all for it, give it back [the 93% as outlined in the Kadimah Platform anyway]. Close the door and lock it behind us.

[Tibia]

I think it means that the Jews of the West Bank are being removed by Israel from non-Israeli soil. What gives Israel this right?


It costs money to protect settlements. Protecting a Settlement in an area surronded by Pal Arabs is costly.

and it is safer in israel then Gaza/West Bank.

[AnnaP]

when i came to israel i had also a very hard beginning. :( ( if you want to read the blog i wrote about it look at eganu.com :D ). it is not simple the first time coming and living in israel. as a tourist is seems so easy: all the people are so nice to you and your money worth so much here...
till you are getting your first salary in shekel and then the world looks different.:rolleyes: