Arabs are not the enemy, Islam is the enemy

[SteveMetch]

Arabs are not the enemy. Many Christian Arabs live peaceful lives in the United States. In fact most ethnic Arabs in the United States are Christians fleeing Islam. The president said Islam is Peace. If Islam is so peaceful why can’t Christian missionaries preach in the Saudi Arabia? We aren’t there as many churches in the Middle East as there are mosques in the United States? Why is having a bible in Saudi Arabia punishable by a life time in prison? Why did the president during the Gulf War have to celebrate thanksgiving on ships in the Persian Gulf rather than on Saudi soil at United States bases full of soldiers defending Saudi Arabia? Islam is not peace. The practice of the Islam defined by the ambiguously evil Koran and the explicit Evil Hadith results in Islamism. Islamism shares all the same characteristics of the murderous ideologies of Fascism and Communism. One cannot win a war fighting the wrong thing. This is no more a war on terrorism than the cold war was a war against nuclear ballistic missiles. The alliance against Islamism has already formed. The current members are the United States of America, Israel, Russia & India. Together hopefully in a cold war like fashion we can grind Islamism into to ground. Our best weapons in order are democracy, the bible and capitalism. These ideas which germinated and developed in the west are a contradictory to Islamism. This is why to this day no Islamic country has established any of these concepts in practice. People who truly practice the Islam of the Koran and Hadith know this. That is why they are so threatened by the west. The west represents an end to Islam, a core component of the Middle East culture and history and self identity.

No peace is possible either in Israel, The United States, India, Russia or the world without confronting the harsh realities of this cultural schism in mankind. Any peace deal, war, and or social solution which do not acknowledge this fact will fail. Culture clash are an inevitable part of globalization.

[NoLiMiT-SoulJah]

First of all - let us see what you refer to when discussing the religion of Islam...

You refer to the actions of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries.. and use their policies to judge Islam. Let me first say that, there is not a single country or state in the world, that actually declares itself to be an Islamic State! All Arab states and Muslim countries, are merely Muslim populations living under the rule of either dictators such as Musharraf or Saddam Husssein, or secular regimes such as Hosni Mubarak and Islam Karimov!

The actions and policies of such countries cannot be used to judge Islam, due to the very basic point that they do not use Islam as a reference for their actions. Had they done so, you would not have had the opportunity to attack and attempt to discredit Islam and its teachings.

Always remember

"Always Judge a religion by its Scripture - Never by its people!"

Therefore, if you wish to condemn anyone or any country, please refrain from using irrelevant sources. Islam is not being implemented anywhere throughout the world as a complete system, and it is for this reason, that the public viewpoint of Islam has been severely distorted. I honestly, believe, that through discussion and objective thinking.... one will definitely agree to the teachings of Islam.

If you wish to criticise Islam, please refer to the text in the Quran and hadith, and please forward your queries....

Thank You.

[ibrodsky]

There is a difference between Islam and Islamism.

Islam is a religion subject to interpretation. It provides guidance to individuals on how to live, and how to cope with life's problems.

Islamism is a political ideology based on a literal interpretation of a religion conceived in the 7th century. Its goal is conquest and world domination.

If Muslims were to modernize Islam as Christianity and Judaism have been modernized, then there would not be a conflict between Western civilization and Islam. Thus, Islam is potentially a religion of peace.

Though I would agree that since Islam as understod by the vast majority of Muslims has not been modernized that the problem rests, in part, with Islam itself. But this is a solvable problem. Unfortunately, most of the Muslim world is backwards; Turkey is an example of what Islam could be if brought into the 21st century.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NoLiMiT-SoulJah
First of all - let us see what you refer to when discussing the religion of Islam...

You refer to the actions of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries.. and use their policies to judge Islam. Let me first say that, there is not a single country or state in the world, that actually declares itself to be an Islamic State! All Arab states and Muslim countries, are merely Muslim populations living under the rule of either dictators such as Musharraf or Saddam Husssein, or secular regimes such as Hosni Mubarak and Islam Karimov!

The actions and policies of such countries cannot be used to judge Islam, due to the very basic point that they do not use Islam as a reference for their actions. Had they done so, you would not have had the opportunity to attack and attempt to discredit Islam and its teachings.

Always remember

"Always Judge a religion by its Scripture - Never by its people!"


Not quite true. Iran most definitely calls itself an "Islamic state." The Taliban also called their brutal and oppressive theocratic gov't an "Islamic state."

The rejection of separation of church and state is not the solution to Islam's problems, but more accurately part of the problem.

How people interpret a religion, and the actions that follow, are what defines a religion.

What you need to do is show us Muslims who accept democracy, who accept tolerance, who reject terrorism, and (the key) who put the truth above all else -- even religious dogma.

This is the problem with Islam. It has not had a Maimonides or Aquinas to persuade followers that religion must serve facts and reason. Because when facts and reason are made to serve religion, then any arbitrary belief -- or prejudice -- can be justified.

Western civilization is not merely different. It is based on truth, justice, tolerance, and liberty. These are universal human values. Good Muslims must embrace these values or they will ultimately find themselves on a collision course with the rest of civilization.

[Mediocrates]

Islam is not being implemented anywhere throughout the world as a complete system,


How or why does one do that? I wasn't aware there was an implementation of Islam or any religion unless you'r talking about the implementation of statecraft according to Islam. Is that what you mean?

And when it is complete is it more or less of what it is today? That is, is it more theocratic or less theocratic?

[civax]

I think that Islam (or muslims) just need to evolve, and that's a process. Christianity had it middle ages as well, with crusades to every imaginable place with a plain-out target to 'liberate' holy places from infidels and to force christian rule everywhere possible.

Jews didn't had such a thing since they were exiled at a reletivly early stage, and while in europe the jewish diaspora shared the progress with the local nations.

Maybe religions just need to evolve and Islam just didn't so far.
Then again, Muslims had thier Golden age, with rule in much of the world and scientific advancement (after all, they did invent the concept of zero...)

mm... I'm turning this into a philosophical issue, I better stop here... ;)

[cerulean]

Originally posted by civax
the world and scientific advancement (after all, they did invent the concept of zero...)


That was the Hindus who invented zero. Also, what we call Arabic numerals are actually Hindu numerals, but brought to our attention by Arab scholars.

[L@mplighterM]

Any country that has Islamic Laws should be considered an Islamic State.

[Mediocrates]

Why categorize it according to a taxonomy. These states are dangerous in varying degrees to Israel and/or American or American Interests world wide. And while they may not pursue a public policy of aggression they may pursue a secret one and/or some aspects of the government like the security services are actively performing activities that either are or will construed to be hostile acts against those interests. Some are Islamic, some are not, some are religious, some are not, some are arab some are not:

Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lebanon, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, Iraq.

This list is incomplete fill it in yourself.

How you rank them is your business. Moreover there are lists of known terrorist organizations and affiliations that carry out the same functions as these states extranationally. Some of them cooperate with and receive support from these states.

They don't really share anything except GOALS. Those goals include, killing, mayhem, elimination of Israel, elimination of US power in the Mid East, elimination of US influence world wide, killing of civilians, killing of non Muslims, Arabs or other 'others' as well as Arabs, Muslims, Persians and members of other sympathetic groups as required, hegemony of some sects of Islam and/or cultural hegemony based on Islam or middle eastern values, religion or religious law, elimination of neighbors who do not share those goals and values.

Moreover they frequenly wage low level wars on each other as it suits their purpose.

[Moon]

NoLiMiT-SoulJah: There are some threads in the Religion/Culture (http://www.israelforum.com/board/forumdisplay.php3?s=&forumid=19) forum which you may want to read and give us explanations by replying. Threads like Muslim Beliefs - The Truth Part 1 (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=227) and Part 2 (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=559)

[Mediocrates]

It think its just as silly to blame somethings on religion as it is to defend somethings on religion. It matters little whether the mullah stirs up a crowd to charge down the street and smash windows or whether the preacher whips up a gay bashing frenzy or the Hindus in town kill all the muslims burn down a commuter train and tear up the mosque with their bare hands. You want to hide behind a book or a man or woman or a demagogue who told you your God(s) said it was alright? Then you're a feebleminded weakling and a coward and you need to stay in the crib with the rest of the babies who can't form an unassisted thought. And anyone who hits back hard at people like that deserve a medal.

[SteveMetch]

The president said Islam is Peace. If Islam is so peaceful why can’t Christian missionaries preach in the Saudi Arabia? We aren’t there as many churches in the Middle East as there are mosques in the United States? Why is having a bible in Saudi Arabia punishable by a life time in prison? Why did the president during the Gulf War have to celebrate thanksgiving on ships in the Persian Gulf rather than on Saudi soil at United States bases full of soldiers defending Saudi Arabia?

[Danisl]

you are right the enemy isnt arabs, but the enemy is certenly not islamic either its when this two combined that the real treah is created!

[Adversary2Arabs]

Mmmmmno. I'm going to have to say Arabs are the enemy. A few hundred years ago, Christians were the enemy and Arabs were friendly(more or less on both ends), but now it has reverted.

[SteveMetch]

90% of who you are is dictated by the environment you were raised in not your genes. As such one can not ascribe a particular set of behaviors to an ethnic group like Arab.

What defines your belief systems was programmed beginning at birth. One critical belief system that all people have is called religion or lack thereof. All religions contain foundational assumptions that can not be proven or disproven. From these base assumptions religions weave a web of logic that helps explain and organize more complex social behaviors and belief systems. The concepts of democracy and capitalism are simple more compatible with Judeo/Christian belief system than Islam. As such Muslims cannot adopt democracy and capitalism and still remain Muslims.

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NoLiMiT-SoulJah
[B]First of all - let us see what you refer to when discussing the religion of Islam...


"Always Judge a religion by its Scripture - Never by its people!"

Let me see if i understand your treatise, correct any inconsistency.
You believe allah is the one. There is no god but he,most gracious,
most merciful.

Muhammad chose the religion of his tribe. They worshipper allah,
the moon-god idol who is called the one god. He declares himself
be allah's prophet. The cresent moon symbol is used in islam.

allah (moon-god) marries sun-goddess and they have three
(goddesses) called Al-lat, Al-uzza and Manat. These also became idols and are worshipped as "Daughters of Allah."

Allah is an idol and the religion is called islam.

[elke]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
90% of who you are is dictated by the environment you were raised in not your genes. As such one can not ascribe a particular set of behaviors to an ethnic group like Arab.

What defines your belief systems was programmed beginning at birth. One critical belief system that all people have is called religion or lack thereof. All religions contain foundational assumptions that can not be proven or disproven. From these base assumptions religions weave a web of logic that helps explain and organize more complex social behaviors and belief systems. The concepts of democracy and capitalism are simple more compatible with Judeo/Christian belief system than Islam. As such Muslims cannot adopt democracy and capitalism and still remain Muslims.

Very well put, but I have to disagree somewhat. First of all, it is not yet clear just how much of our behavior is determined genetically vs. environmentally. Some distinguished scientists believe that as much as 50% of who we are is genetically pre-programmed.

The other part I disagree with is that democracy and capitalism are more compatible with Judeo/Christian beliefs. These beliefs were adapted to become compatible with democracy and capitalism. Christian Europe did not become democratic until relatively recently. In fact, Christianity was used to support the power of the autocratic thrones and feudal economic system throughout the Middle Ages, and even beyond. What has happened to Christianity is Enlightenment. Islam, for various reasons, is still awaiting its Enlightners, and that's the difference.

[christian]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
90% of who you are is dictated by the environment you were raised in not your genes. As such one can not ascribe a particular set of behaviors to an ethnic group like Arab.

What defines your belief systems was programmed beginning at birth. One critical belief system that all people have is called religion or lack thereof. All religions contain foundational assumptions that can not be proven or disproven. From these base assumptions religions weave a web of logic that helps explain and organize more complex social behaviors and belief systems. The concepts of democracy and capitalism are simple more compatible with Judeo/Christian belief system than Islam. As such Muslims cannot adopt democracy and capitalism and still remain Muslims.

All the religion in the world contains literature against another sterotyping group. Throughout the centuries, people commits genocide to another race in the name of religion, justifying their morality cause.


Judaism- Don't spare one cannaties in the land of Israel

Christianty- converts all the jews

Islam- converts all the infidel

Hindu- kills the islam

It is very unfair to perceive people, basing on religion. What works 2000 years ago. It doesn't work in this space of time.

The correct criticism against islamic countries and his people, should be based upon poverty, dictatorship, corruption, uneducation, application of outdated islamic law, human rights and standard of living. Any other criticism against islam, is just a biased one sided point of view.

If your statement is true. Malaysia wouldn't be a wealthy country today. Turkey wouldn't be a secular nation. It will be another third world islamic country, calling in the name of jihad.

[danholo]

Christian:

"Judaism- Don't spare one cannaties in the land of Israel"

There was a reason for this. The reason was that these people were immoral idol worshippers. They had immoral ideas, like having sex with their sisters and these people were to be expelled from the land so that ideas would not contaminate the minds of the Israelites.
It's not of hatred toward the people, it's hatred towards what they believe in. Of course the Torah tells us to treat the foreigner the same way as any other fellow Israelite, but if this foreigners ideas are antithetical to the ways of the Israelites, he is not to be tolerated. These "bad" people, killed each other in revenge, worshipped idols, had sex with anyone or thing that moved, killed people for nothing, stole others posessions. If these kind of people are to be respected then why do we bother at all.

[elke]

Chanaanites had a god called Moloch, who required sacrifice of small children in its fiery throat. This was the "abomination" that really got the Hebrews up in arms.

In addition, the Chanaanites practiced ritual prostitution, which also made the Hebrews...uncomfortable ;)

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
90% of who you are is dictated by the environment you were raised in not your genes. As such one can not ascribe a particular set of behaviors to an ethnic group like Arab.

What defines your belief systems was programmed beginning at birth. One critical belief system that all people have is called religion or lack thereof. All religions contain foundational assumptions that can not be proven or disproven. From these base assumptions religions weave a web of logic that helps explain and organize more complex social behaviors and belief systems. The concepts of democracy and capitalism are simple more compatible with Judeo/Christian belief system than Islam. As such Muslims cannot adopt democracy and capitalism and still remain Muslims.

I have to disagree somewhat because, I grew up being taught not to hate anyone, and that everyone is good. That was fine until I saw that most gentiles hate Jews, so I "defensivly hate" them back. If that makes any sense..

[christian]

Originally posted by danholo
Christian:

"Judaism- Don't spare one cannaties in the land of Israel"

There was a reason for this. The reason was that these people were immoral idol worshippers. They had immoral ideas, like having sex with their sisters and these people were to be expelled from the land so that ideas would not contaminate the minds of the Israelites.
It's not of hatred toward the people, it's hatred towards what they believe in. Of course the Torah tells us to treat the foreigner the same way as any other fellow Israelite, but if this foreigners ideas are antithetical to the ways of the Israelites, he is not to be tolerated. These "bad" people, killed each other in revenge, worshipped idols, had sex with anyone or thing that moved, killed people for nothing, stole others posessions. If these kind of people are to be respected then why do we bother at all.

Every religion has a full of reason against another religion.
Let me remind you that religion is a powerful political tool. Every religion is claiming their superiority over the others. This smoking screen is blinding our correct judgement.

Personally, I am a christian in christianty. However, I will never critize other religion, except the religion will creates social disorder like the cult. In this case,the "fundamentalist" islam is creating this problem. It is not the entire islamic world, that is creating this problem. If so, turkey will not be a main ally of Israel.

When christianty arrives in jerusalem. They slaugther jewish people. For the reason, the jewish people doesn't believe in Jesus.

In middle ages, Islam arrives in Afghastan, they slaugther all the buddhist. For the reason, the buddhist is a idol worshiper.

Judaism slaughter Cannaties, because the cannaites are idol worshipper.

" You must not spare one cannaties, when you enter the land of cannan. " Deurtonomy0

In fact, the bible repeatedly states the reason the genocide must be commited against cannaties, because they are idol worshipper.

If we dwell in the issue of religion. Both sides will come back to never ending game of religious history. The correct issue against islam should be poverty, education, dictatorship, outdated islamic law, social values, imperialsim,etc.

PS. It is not only the cannites, have sex with anyone in spiritual ritual. In israel or HK, An average 19 year old boy is still practicing sex in spiritual ritual. ;) Sex itself is a spirtual ritual. Except, the boy is not religious. :D

[christian]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


I have to disagree somewhat because, I grew up being taught not to hate anyone, and that everyone is good. That was fine until I saw that most gentiles hate Jews, so I "defensivly hate" them back. If that makes any sense..

Your support on your belief is very vague. It is only arabs country, carrying such a hate. In American, there aren't any problem with anti-semitism.

[James]

Islam wants to eliminate all infidels. To them, if you are not Muslim
you are their enemy. They have no problem killing anyone and
everyone standing in their way. They are very dangerous and should be placed somewhere safe for the rest of us.

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by christian
[B]

Every religion has a full of reason against another religion.
Let me remind you that religion is a powerful political tool. Every religion is claiming their superiority over the others. This smoking screen is blinding our correct judgement.

Personally, I am a christian in christianty. However, I will never critize other religion, except the religion will creates social disorder like the cult. In this case,the "fundamentalist" islam is creating this problem. It is not the entire islamic world, that is creating this problem. If so, turkey will not be a main ally of Israel.


I think you are being naive. Do you think most of this world likes
Jews, Christians,etc.... Arab states want to control the world.
As you put it, idol worshipers. I agree, all idol worshipers should
be kept apart from us. Have you not heard, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?"

[danholo]

christian, did you completely ignore elke's post? If you think the Canaanites should've been tolerated just because of a different religion you're sick. People who do immoral acts, don't have the right to live!

christian:

"Your support on your belief is very vague. It is only arabs country, carrying such a hate. In American, there aren't any problem with anti-semitism."

You don't get it do you? I guess b/c you're not Jewish, you don't see it.
What do you think the KKK is or all the other Neo-Nazi groups in the USA?
Most rednecks in the south are anti-semites, in fact many people are anti-semites. The idea that Jews are the devil is so common in peoples mind's, it's amazing! Even on these board's they're so blinded by anti-semitism that everything that Israel does is bad.

If you've noticed, more anti-semites and racists are emerging. New Neo-Nazi groups get more and more support from "normal" people. In Russia the growing support for Neo-Nazi groups is frightening. We saw it in the soccer riots that happened a couple weeks ago. These riots are organized, organized by Neo-Nazis. There is a magazine called Searchlight that reports on these things. In Britain there are Neo-Nazis who organize these riots and there are pictures of these morons, and damn are the fat and ugly!

[christian]

Originally posted by James
[QUOTE]Originally posted by christian
[B]

Every religion has a full of reason against another religion.
Let me remind you that religion is a powerful political tool. Every religion is claiming their superiority over the others. This smoking screen is blinding our correct judgement.

Personally, I am a christian in christianty. However, I will never critize other religion, except the religion will creates social disorder like the cult. In this case,the "fundamentalist" islam is creating this problem. It is not the entire islamic world, that is creating this problem. If so, turkey will not be a main ally of Israel.


I think you are being naive. Do you think most of this world likes
Jews, Christians,etc.... Arab states want to control the world.
As you put it, idol worshipers. I agree, all idol worshipers should
be kept apart from us. Have you not heard, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?"

Look! If you apply your philosphy on this strategic situation. You will only unite the arabs and islamic fundamentalism.
Is that what you want?

"A united front against western civilization in the name of allah" Osama Bin Ladin

Why don't you create division instead? Some moderate muslim like Turkey does support Israel. They trust Israel-turkey alliance.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by danholo
[B]christian, did you completely ignore elke's post? If you think the Canaanites should've been tolerated just because of a different religion you're sick. People who do immoral acts, don't have the right to live!


Let me answer your comment with a question.

Is it moral to have 60 wives 2000 years ago?Yes
Is it moral to have 60 wives right now? No

What is moral 2000 years ago. It is not legitimate anymore.

Read my post correctly.

I never discredits ELke comments. It is her opinion.




christian:

"Your support on your belief is very vague. It is only arabs country, carrying such a hate. In American, there aren't any problem with anti-semitism."

You don't get it do you? I guess b/c you're not Jewish, you don't see it.
What do you think the KKK is or all the other Neo-Nazi groups in the USA?

I am not jews. I am chinese. I do experience what you experience in the east pacific coast.

WWII-jewish Holocaust
WWII-chinese holocaust

Most rednecks in the south are anti-semites, in fact many people are anti-semites. The idea that Jews are the devil is so common in peoples mind's, it's amazing! Even on these board's they're so blinded by anti-semitism that everything that Israel does is bad.

Lol.
The natives(redneck) are not only against jews. They hates every white race on American. They blame everything on white people. There is only few indian reserve in America.

The native indian is a extinct race.



If you've noticed, more anti-semites and racists are emerging. New Neo-Nazi groups get more and more support from "normal" people. In Russia the growing support for Neo-Nazi groups is frightening. We saw it in the soccer riots that happened a couple weeks ago. These riots are organized, organized by Neo-Nazis. There is a magazine called Searchlight that reports on these things. In Britain there are Neo-Nazis who organize these riots and there are pictures of these morons, and damn are the fat and ugly!

Neo-Nazi is not only targeting Jews. They also targets any non-white. They attacks blacks and other visible minority.

Where have you been ? Le Pen is making the issues out of the arabs and visible minority migrants. They have much more fear than jewish people.

In fact, the most powerful position in American is jews. (remember Clinton. HE does have jewish blood in him) In France, the powerful position financial secretary and Prime minister are jewish decendent.

In britain, there is some powerful jewish, holding the position.(former foreign secretary)

[Mediocrates]

You have an idiomatic American English language gap. Redneck is a (politically correct) racist slur about poor white people (aka white trash).

At any rate, whatever your value system we share things and have shared things over the past two thousand years or so which are fairly constant. If you look in the Mish Patim or Jewish (civil) code you'll the origins of things like:

no child sacrifice
no adultery
no rape, murder or stealing
and so on. Within those broad parameters most people are free to do what they want, securlarly at any rate. But if you proposed that religious belief is a defence for any action you are flat out wrong. In India the Thuggee sect strangled people as part of their 'religious' beliefs. No one is seriously defending that any more than in the present day someone won't stand up to defend and protect children who are beaten, tortured or worse as part of some bizarre religious system. It's simply the way the non primitive world works.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mediocrates
[B]You have an idiomatic American English language gap. Redneck is a (politically correct) racist slur about poor white people (aka white trash).
:p oppss

At any rate, whatever your value system we share things and have shared things over the past two thousand years or so which are fairly constant. If you look in the Mish Patim or Jewish (civil) code you'll the origins of things like:

no child sacrifice
no adultery
no rape, murder or stealing
and so on. Within those broad parameters most people are free to do what they want, securlarly at any rate. But if you proposed that religious belief is a defence for any action you are flat out wrong. In India the Thuggee sect strangled people as part of their 'religious' beliefs. No one is seriously defending that any more than in the present day someone won't stand up to defend and protect children who are beaten, tortured or worse as part of some bizarre religious system. It's simply the way the non primitive world works.

You are missing my point. What was morally right 2000 years ago, it is unapplicable in todays world.

[Mediocrates]

That's only vaguely true for things we've internalized into our own laws. We don't beat slaves because we don't own any. We don't favor the first wife because we have only one wife. The Western ethic or the Judeo Christian ethic if you will has pretty much always said the same things, in context for almost 4000 years. True the mechanics of it have changed but not the intent. For example in the Torah we read in excruciating detail the construction of the temple and the process for ritual sacrifice none of which exists today. But that's not the point, the point is obligation to God and to justice and to ethical principals.

All of those other societies that had temple whores and child killing, mutiliation, humans as gods as humans, degraded family relationships and what we in west would generally consider perverted values are gone, because they were perverted or extreme or whatever you want to call them. So that which is not moral now was in fact not moral then either and it simply took time, warfare and assimilation, depravity and weakness to prove that out. Whereas we Jews are still around. Telling the same ethic.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mediocrates
[B]That's only vaguely true for things we've internalized into our own laws. We don't beat slaves because we don't own any. We don't favor the first wife because we have only one wife. The

This is not true. King solomon has 1000 wives to sleep with. :D
King david has ten. Israel(jacob) has two wives. It is christian value changes the behavior of "one wife" policy. Which derives from the old testament.

Western ethic or the Judeo Christian ethic if you will has pretty much always said the same things, in context for almost 4000 years. True the mechanics of it have changed but not the intent. For example in the Torah we read in excruciating detail the construction of the temple and the process for ritual sacrifice none of which exists today. But that's not the point, the point is obligation to God and to justice and to ethical principals.


All of those other societies that had temple whores and child killing, mutiliation, humans as gods as humans, degraded family relationships and what we in west would generally consider perverted values are gone, because they were perverted or extreme or whatever you want to call them. So that which is not moral now was in fact not moral then either and it simply took time, warfare and assimilation, depravity and weakness to prove that out. Whereas we Jews are still around. Telling the same ethic.

In the west, they were practicing these perverted values for centuries. The Greek socrates practices homosexuality. The Roman has god's banquet and sexual orgies. It is the christianty, changing these perspective of social orders. Which today we distinguish morality and imoraltity.

It is incorrect to make a judgement on ancient times, based upon our moral rules.

What is moral before. It is not moral now.

[Micah]

As I understand it, the Cannanites must have done something more then just being "adulterous." Not saying they weren't, but something there is more to this. I don't fully understand it, but I know that the Cannanites could NOT have been killed by the Jews with just being Idol worshippers because as I understand it, if you aren't Jewish you're not obliged to keep the 613 laws. That said, there has to be a deeper, more "legal" (according to Jewish law) why the Jews killed the Cannanites.

And something that many people forget to point out, just so people don't think the Jews went in and "slaughtered" all of the people, the Jews gave fair warning that if they (people living in the land given to the Jewish people) left, they would be spared, which many did. And then another thing people forget is that the Cannanoites weren't your average-sized human being. They were by no means push-overs.

[Mediocrates]

In the west, they were practicing these perverted values for centuries. The Greek socrates practices homosexuality. The Roman has god's banquet and sexual orgies. It is the christianty, changing these perspective of social orders. Which today we distinguish morality and imoraltity.

It is incorrect to make a judgement on ancient times, based upon our moral rules.

What is moral before. It is not moral now


You were talking about laws not practices - these are practices. All of these things go on today but they are not codified into law.

[SteveMetch]

Human cultural evolution is significantly faster than genetic evolution. Throughout human history various cultures have experimented with various organizational systems. While all systems will have advantages and disadvantages cultures that ultimately dominate posses to two important characteristics. The first is that they incorporate good principles from other cultures into their own efficiently. The second characteristic is that they can kill efficiently. Islam is a fundamental barrier to the first characteristic. Because of this they have fallen behind in the second characteristic

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by christian
You are missing my point. What was morally right 2000 years ago, it is unapplicable in todays world.

You say that times are different, so todays morals are different. Christianity was based on Judaism. They adopted our morals because at first, they considered themselves to BE Jewish. Then as Christianity spread like wildfire through Europe(the west), the Jewish Morals went with it. All of the European nations as well as every other country effected by Christianity in the way that there were Chrsitians ruling the area, adopted the originally(and still to this day, obviously) morals and ethics. Thou shall not Steal (stealing is illegal). Thou Shall not kill[(murder is illegal)(unless you're an Arab killing a Jew in a Arab country or France.)] Yes, there are some like 'thou shall not committ adultery' which are not illegal, but it is still looked down upon in MOST places(not all, thats for sure). But in general, most of the Jewish morals and ethics that were in use (and were odd to other countries since they were savages) thousands of years ago, still are in use today in first world countries - like Israel and the US.

[elke]

Christian, you are confusing "morals" and "mores". Some of the Ten Commandments, such as murder and theft, were originally codified in the Code of Hammurabi, which was an earlier event. Polygamy, idol worship, and many other more "benign" cultural differences simply proved to be inefficient as time progressed.

These practices may have been VERY efficient in the ancient times: for example, if there was a shortage of male population due to wars, disease, and other reasons, polygamy would have been a good way to combat such shortage and thus assure survival of the group. Similarly, it was also a good way to assure a place to live and food for more women, when it was impossible for a woman to survive on her own.

We can bicker that these practices WERE the matter of morals at the time, because they were useful for survival. But because this is no longer true, polygamy is no longer the matter of morals, IMO. Judging Islam on such basis is not productive.

Murder and theft, however, still are the matter of morals. These concepts are extremely dangerous to society. It is difficult to imagine a time when they wouldn't be, and even more difficult to imagine a society that would permit such things and survive as a society.

What's wrong with the fundamentalist Islamic societies today is that they are unleashing this thirst for blood, thinking that they can control it. What they don't understand is that controlling such things is well-nigh impossible. The rest of the world learned this lesson in times when the weapons of mass destruction were not available, so the damage from these "experiments" (e.g. Crusades) was limited in scope. Today, however, we as a species are capable of destroying the whole Planet Earth. This is no time to run experiments of this sort.

[Micah]

Originally posted by elke
It is difficult to imagine a time when they wouldn't be, and even more difficult to imagine a society that would permit such things and survive as a society.

For a while it did, but did you ever hear of Sadam and Gamora? :)

[elke]

My point exactly: did they survive? And it wouldn't have even taken an Act of G-d to destroy them: they would have perished by their own hand! :)

[signupforpeace]

if you are willing to call any member of the global collectivew an enemy your willingness to find a pacific solution can be said to questionable at best !

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
There is a difference between Islam and Islamism.
Islam is a religion subject to interpretation. It provides guidance to individuals on how to live, and how to cope with life's problems.
Islamism is a political ideology based on a literal interpretation of a religion conceived in the 7th century. Its goal is conquest and world domination.
If Muslims were to modernize Islam as Christianity and Judaism have been modernized, then there would not be a conflict between Western civilization and Islam. Thus, Islam is potentially a religion of peace.
Though I would agree that since Islam as understod by the vast majority of Muslims has not been modernized that the problem rests, in part, with Islam itself. But this is a solvable problem. Unfortunately, most of the Muslim world is backwards; Turkey is an example of what Islam could be if brought into the 21st century.

The difference is between Islam, and how people follow it. Islam is not just a spiritual religion, it encompasses every aspect of life, whether it be political, economic, etc. It provides the outline and allows followers to build in that framework according to their time and situation. Contrary to what you said, it is not Islamism that is the problem, simply that the leaders of those countries have not learned to take the balanced course when shaping national policy and laws.

Judaism and Christianity do not wholey cover extensively past the spiritual aspect, however Islam does because one of the ultimate duties of a Muslim is to help ensure social justice, whether they are a minority or a majority. Islam is pretty flexible when it comes to making laws, etc. only thing that needs to be followed are the basic rules like no interest, etc.

Turkey is now one of the failed examples of what a country does wheen it denies the identity of 99% of the population. People there are not allowed to work in government buildings with a head scarf, or beard. Nor do they allow many districts in the country to go to prayer. Now they have a crisis. If Muslim countries.. whether it be Turkey or SA... take the balanced approach and not embezzle money into their pockets. Islamism is not the problem, rather it is the injustice of the leaders.

Modernization comes in all forms, and Muslim countries should be allowed to make their own distinctive contribution to it.

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by ibrodsky

This is the problem with Islam. It has not had a Maimonides or Aquinas to persuade followers that religion must serve facts and reason. Because when facts and reason are made to serve religion, then any arbitrary belief -- or prejudice -- can be justified.

Western civilization is not merely different. It is based on truth, justice, tolerance, and liberty. These are universal human values. Good Muslims must embrace these values or they will ultimately find themselves on a collision course with the rest of civilization.

Ibrodsky, you say that Islam has never had a Maimonides and Thomas Aquinas. :D Islamic philosopher were actually the second after the Greeks that make HUGE advancements into Philosophy.

Do you know who Ibn Rushd is? All the western philosophers came after the Islamic ones, and it was only during the 13th century that Europeans actually began to take an interest in Intellectual pursuits when they gained a foot hold in Spain and say the libraries of the Muslims. It was in the 13th century that Jewish, and Muslim, and Christians living in the Islamics Empire translated Greek Philosophy, thousands of books by Muslim philosophers in to Hebrew and Latin. You've got it all wrong.

Accroding to Islam, it is also based on tolerance and truth and universal human values.. the problem is that they just dont practice them anymore and WE NOW do. We didnt before you know. It was only after the first crusade that the Franks learned to take regular baths. :D

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by cerulean


That was the Hindus who invented zero. Also, what we call Arabic numerals are actually Hindu numerals, but brought to our attention by Arab scholars.

Actually modern scholars agree that the numerals are actually Hindu. Arabs used a dot to represent "empty" space. ex. 1*1= one hundred and one. The word empty in Arabic was translated as Zero first in Italian and then in English.

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
The president said Islam is Peace. If Islam is so peaceful why can’t Christian missionaries preach in the Saudi Arabia? We aren’t there as many churches in the Middle East as there are mosques in the United States? Why is having a bible in Saudi Arabia punishable by a life time in prison? Why did the president during the Gulf War have to celebrate thanksgiving on ships in the Persian Gulf rather than on Saudi soil at United States bases full of soldiers defending Saudi Arabia?

SA even with its oil and Business is kinda like the Vatican. Could anyone preach other religions there?

[danholo]

"Judaism and Christianity do not wholey cover extensively past the spiritual aspect, however Islam does because one of the ultimate duties of a Muslim is to help ensure social justice, whether they are a minority or a majority. Islam is pretty flexible when it comes to making laws, etc. only thing that needs to be followed are the basic rules like no interest, etc."

Don't you be bulls'itting me. Judaism is a way of life.
The Torah has laws for everything. Ever heard of the Talmud or ancient Israel?
Well Talmud is a recollection, explanation and debate of Jewish law.
Jewish law was in force in the old kingdom of Israel and anyway Judaism was the way of life and it was a guide and rule to every aspect of it. "Social justice" and treating your neighbor as you would yourself IS Judaism and Torah.
Jewish law is adaptable to any cultural age were it past or present.
There is nothing new in Islam that Judaism does not have, except gruesome methods of punishment like crucifiction, amputation of limbs and whipping.


I don't want a religious debate to start but the Sanhedrin is a much better system of judgement than a Sharia law court with it's inhumane methods of punishment.
For example a Sanhedrin that sentenced a man to death was called "a bloody Sanhedrin". Even though the Torah orders death sentences to crimes. It was carried out very seldom because of the method of the Sanhedrin was fair for the defendant and the plaintiff.

A perfect example for this in this week's parshah (weekly Torah portion):

Chabad.org Rashi commentary section (http://www.chabad.org/Parshah/rashi/default.asp?MID=36236)

"18. You shall set up judges and law enforcement officials for yourself in all your cities that the Lord, your God, is giving you, for your tribes, and they shall judge the people [with] righteous judgment. 19. You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show favoritism, and you shall not take a bribe, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts just words. 20. Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may live and possess the land the Lord, your God, is giving you. 21. You shall not plant for yourself an asherah, [or] any tree, near the altar of the Lord, your God, which you shall make for yourself. 22. And you shall not set up for yourself a monument, which the Lord, your God hates."

Check the page out for the Rashi commentary, he gives an easy explanation to the portion.

This (http://www.chabad.org/parshah/in-depth/default.asp?AID=55289) site will is from Chabad.org also but it's more "in-depth".




I don't know much about Islam though and my claims might be harsh and ignorant but what you said isn't true about Judaism.
You clearly don't know what Judaism is if you go and say something like that.

BTW, I was watching a documentary on Afghanistan and arts.
There were Muslim scholars that claimed dancing and music is immoral and forbidden in Islam and others that said otherwise, like some factions that used music to pray to God.
Why do these scholars have these interpretations? Where does the Quran state that music and dancing is forbidden? Or why do these scholars get these ideas?

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by James
Let me see if i understand your treatise, correct any inconsistency.
You believe allah is the one. There is no god but he,most gracious,
most merciful.

Muhammad chose the religion of his tribe. They worshipper allah,
the moon-god idol who is called the one god. He declares himself
be allah's prophet. The cresent moon symbol is used in islam.

allah (moon-god) marries sun-goddess and they have three
(goddesses) called Al-lat, Al-uzza and Manat. These also became idols and are worshipped as "Daughters of Allah."

Allah is an idol and the religion is called islam. [/B]


In ancient arab times, known as the period of Ignorance, they worhipped three stones. The arabs however, did know that there was a god most high like what the Jews and Christians told them.

The name for the GOD is Allah. The moon-god SIN was used back in the days of what is known in Quran as AAD. They worshipped the moon-god and the prophet of the ONE GOD was told to destroy all the idols. Thats another story. What you have said ia actually a medival fantasy. The cresent was not used in the Prophets time. His symbol was his seal that had his title, and that was in black and white. Now.. the cresant came to be associated through the month of Ramadan, when the new moon is sited.

Allah is the God of Abraham. You've been reading that book from the chick -something company havent you?? :D

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Intellectualme


Ibrodsky, you say that Islam has never had a Maimonides and Thomas Aquinas. :D Islamic philosopher were actually the second after the Greeks that make HUGE advancements into Philosophy.

Not quite. Islamic philosophers were very prominent during the medieval times and made important contributions.

But they did not set the stage for the separate development of secular society as Maimonides and Aquinas did. Avicenna avoided the issue, and Algazali came down firmly on the side of giving religious dogma priority over human investigation.

Do you know who Ibn Rushd is? All the western philosophers came after the Islamic ones, and it was only during the 13th century that Europeans actually began to take an interest in Intellectual pursuits when they gained a foot hold in Spain and say the libraries of the Muslims. It was in the 13th century that Jewish, and Muslim, and Christians living in the Islamics Empire translated Greek Philosophy, thousands of books by Muslim philosophers in to Hebrew and Latin. You've got it all wrong.

You are correct that Islamic philosophers helped to preserve ancient Greek philosophy and thought. But this was the original work of the Greeks; the Islamic philosophers were mainly interpreters and commentators. (Ibn Rushd = Averroes.)

Accroding to Islam, it is also based on tolerance and truth and universal human values.. the problem is that they just dont practice them anymore and WE NOW do. We didnt before you know. It was only after the first crusade that the Franks learned to take regular baths. :D

No, Islam opposes separation of church and state and, therefore, cannot promote "universal values." It is well known that in Islam there are three major groups of people: Muslims, Christians and Jews, and non-believers. An Islamic state treats each of the three groups differently. Thus, there is institutionalized inequality before the law.

Algazali won the debate. In Islam, the Koran is Truth and everything else must conform. This is why today some Muslims even try to claim that the Koran anticipated all great scientific discoveries by associating vague passages with, for example, the Big Bang theory. This is just silliness.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Intellectualme


The difference is between Islam, and how people follow it. Islam is not just a spiritual religion, it encompasses every aspect of life, whether it be political, economic, etc. It provides the outline and allows followers to build in that framework according to their time and situation. Contrary to what you said, it is not Islamism that is the problem, simply that the leaders of those countries have not learned to take the balanced course when shaping national policy and laws.

Well, you have identified a second problem. Most Christians and Jews view religion as supreme when it comes to matters of faith and values. But they recognize it is crucial to allow science, education, and civil society to operate independently of religion.

To this day, Islam is still backwards compared to Copernicus. He made a wonderfully eloquent argument that scientists must have the freedom to propose whatever theories they want -- even theories that contradict accepted religious dogma. I recommend everyone read this!

Judaism and Christianity do not wholey cover extensively past the spiritual aspect, however Islam does because one of the ultimate duties of a Muslim is to help ensure social justice, whether they are a minority or a majority. Islam is pretty flexible when it comes to making laws, etc. only thing that needs to be followed are the basic rules like no interest, etc.

Nope. As others have pointed out, they do cover much more. It's just that the vast majority of Christians and Jews understand that it is a personal decision whether or not one should make religion the guide to everything. In Islam, you are simply expected to do this.

Turkey is now one of the failed examples of what a country does wheen it denies the identity of 99% of the population. People there are not allowed to work in government buildings with a head scarf, or beard. Nor do they allow many districts in the country to go to prayer. Now they have a crisis. If Muslim countries.. whether it be Turkey or SA... take the balanced approach and not embezzle money into their pockets. Islamism is not the problem, rather it is the injustice of the leaders.

No, countries like Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban, and Saudi Arabia are examples of failures. They made Islam king, and the result was extreme regimentation, oppression, hatred, and violence.

Unlike Iran and Saudi Arabia, countries whose primary exports are oil and terrorism, Turkey is a more modern and genuinely productive country. They have the right to prevent religious fascism from preempting democracy.

Modernization comes in all forms, and Muslim countries should be allowed to make their own distinctive contribution to it.

Sure. But the point is they aren't making any contributions to modernism because they reject modern values and lifestyles. What they (and you) don't seem to understand is that you either choose to live in the 7th century -- treating the Koran as the complete guide to everything -- or you choose to live in the 21st century, treating strict adherence to scripture as a purely personal choice.

[1234]

RELIGION

Many of the world’s religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Bahaiism were strongly influenced by their predecessor Mithraism and Zoroastrianism, which was the religion of ancient Iran. The similarities between their mythology, and revelations are quite significant. If anyone is interested in the history of world religions, I recommend researching Mithraism and Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism played a very influential part in the fast paced progress of the Persian Empire, as well as influencing western culture. Zoroastrianism was effectively destroyed in Iran by invading Arabs, who forced people to either convert to Islam, pay a heavy fine, or be beheaded. But Zoroastrianism is still being practice, and gaining popularity among the increasing Iranian nationalists.

RELIGION AND FUNDAMENTALISM

All religions have their dark closets. Islam is a fairly new religion, and hasn’t gone through the revisions of older religions. I know many Muslims, and they are just as normal as everyone else, and they don’t need a religious enlightenment to make them that way. Is there fundamentalism in Islam? Yes. There is also fundamentalism in other religions. Fundamentalism tends to creep its ugly head when there is poverty, oppression, war, lack of education, lack of sovereignty, and other sources of great anxiety. It can take many forms, including nationalism, racism, or religious fundamentalism, depending on the situation. Take Germany for example, which produced some of the most amazing people in history. How did they transform into Nazi Germany? Go to the local ghetto or trailer community in the US, where people are actually far better of than the Palestinians, and then ponder about what fundamentalism is, and where it comes from.

[1234]

ibrodsky,

No, countries like Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban, and Saudi Arabia are examples of failures. They made Islam king, and the result was extreme regimentation, oppression, hatred, and violence.

Who was the biggest financial supporter of the Taliban? USA. We brought the Taliban to power. Iran was actually supporting the Northern Alliance from the beginning. Historically, USA, UK, and now EU, have preferred to place or support dictators in that region, who are much easier to control and influence than a democratic system, and they have also actively overthrown democracies, for control of oil of course. As I said before, religious fundamentalism, similar to other forms of fundamentalism, is fueled by the situation. This fundamentalism and ignorance exists on both sides of the table, in different forms. Many of the dictatorships or religious fundamentalists are still being backed by various elements, including US, UK, and EU, all for a piece of that precious pie. This spotlight on religious fundamentalism is just a distraction from the real issues of oil, sovereignty, democracy, and control.

Take Iran for example: 1907, Iran had a constitutional revolution, and was struggling for the first democracy in Asia. But by 1925, England established the dictatorship of Reza Shah in Iran, which lasted until 1946. During that time, Britain was in control of Iran’s oil. After WWII, Dr. Musaddegh lead a democratic movement in Iran, and nationalized Iran’s oil. In 1953, CIA and Britain overthrew the democracy and replaced it with the dictatorship of the Shah. US and Israel actually trained the Shah’s secret police force, SAVAK, which was responsible for the killings and torture of political dissent, mainly remnants of the short lived democracy.

By 1979, Iranians revolted. This revolution included a spectrum of political ideologies. But Khomeini and his backers soon gained power, by assassinations, and the fact that the SAVAK had already silenced many of the other political factions, especially the democratic ones. This helped the religious factions, who also had the safety and the soapbox of mosques, and they became more difficult to control. Shortly after the revolution, Iraq, with the backing of weapon producing countries, attacked Iran. Chemical/Biological weapon technology, which was against international law, was actually provided to Iraq by western countries, and was heavily used against Iranians. But no, these countries weren’t just supporting one side for some justified cause. As we all know, they sold to both sides. This war lasted for 8 years, and during this time the ruling thugs in Iran gained more and more power, under the threat of an invading foreign force. After the war, you started seeing the reform and revolting of Iranians against the Islamic regime. After all this bitterness Iranians must be feeling, tens of thousands of Iranians gave their respect to the 911 victims by gathering in the streets with candles.

Everybody knows that Iranians are on the verge of a revolution, for a secular democracy. All the polls and events show this. People also know that an attack against Iran would strengthen the mullah regime, due to the threat of a foreign force, like in the Iran-Iraq war, and evident phenomenon throughout human history. The mullahs would love it if they were attacked, because they know it wouldn’t be an all out attack, and they would use the crisis as a way to hold on to power. The Islamic regime in Iran is not really religious, and the people of Iran, and educated people all over the world know this. They are corrupt thugs, and are using this system to control the people. If you read about what they do, you’ll soon understand that they couldn’t care less if they were holding a Koran or a Bible, as long as they are on top.

Unlike Iran and Saudi Arabia, countries whose primary exports are oil and terrorism, Turkey is a more modern and genuinely productive country. They have the right to prevent religious fascism from preempting democracy.

Turkey is not big on oil, unlike the other "backward countries"...hmm...maybe that's why Turkey has been left alone, while western countries toppled democracies and placed dictatorships, time and time again in the oil rich countries.

It is in the best interest of both the western and middle eastern countries, and for the whole world, to make sure that this trend does not continue. Further attempts at manipulation and oppression of resource rich countries will only add to a history of bitterness and frustration. While a handfull of politicians and companies make a fortune, the common people, on both sides, will end up paying the price.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by 1234
If anyone is interested in the history of world religions, I recommend researching Mithraism and Zoroastrianism. ...But Zoroastrianism is still being practice, and gaining popularity among the increasing Iranian nationalists.

Good point.


Fundamentalism tends to creep its ugly head when there is poverty, oppression, war, lack of education, lack of sovereignty, and other sources of great anxiety. It can take many forms, including nationalism, racism, or religious fundamentalism, depending on the situation. Take Germany for example, which produced some of the most amazing people in history. How did they transform into Nazi Germany? Go to the local ghetto or trailer community in the US, where people are actually far better of than the Palestinians, and then ponder about what fundamentalism is, and where it comes from.

This is what you would expect, but it is not true. Starting with Osama bin Laden, many Islamists (militant Islam) come from the more affluent, predominantly professional class. Anyone who has doubts about this should read Steve Emerson's book.

It's also clear that people with certain political views are really straining to convince others that Islamism and terrorism come from poverty. It's true the Palestinian territories are in shambles, economically, but it is the result of the infantifada rather than the other way around.

I see in another thread you demonstrate you are a total loony, claiming that the US government engineered the attack on the World Trade Center for its own devious purposes. Never mind that Islamists talk about and celebrate such deeds...

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by 1234
Who was the biggest financial supporter of the Taliban? USA. We brought the Taliban to power. Iran was actually supporting the Northern Alliance from the beginning. Historically, USA, UK, and now EU, have preferred to place or support dictators in that region, who are much easier to control and influence than a democratic system, and they have also actively overthrown democracies, for control of oil of course. Many of the dictatorships or religious fundamentalists are still being backed by various elements, including US, UK, and EU, all for a piece of that precious pie. This spotlight on religious fundamentalism is just a distraction from the real issues of oil, sovereignty, democracy, and control.

You love conspiracy theories, so you interpret everything from that perspective.

Yes, the U.S. has provided limited support to undemocratic forces and even dictators. This has been the result of the "realpolitik" philosophy that says my enemies' enemy is my friend and that the bad guys can be kept in check by each other -- not by some sinister plot to see the world ruled by dictators.

Take Iran for example: 1907, Iran had a constitutional revolution, and was struggling for the first democracy in Asia. But by 1925, England established the dictatorship of Reza Shah in Iran, which lasted until 1946. During that time, Britain was in control of Iran’s oil. After WWII, Dr. Musaddegh lead a democratic movement in Iran, and nationalized Iran’s oil. In 1953, CIA and Britain overthrew the democracy and replaced it with the dictatorship of the Shah. US and Israel actually trained the Shah’s secret police force, SAVAK, which was responsible for the killings and torture of political dissent, mainly remnants of the short lived democracy.

I get it: people who "nationalize" (read: expropriate) other people's property are the true democrats. You sound like an Iranian student from my college days -- the Shah was the worst evil imaginable, but don't worry about those Ayatollahs, they are just a symbol of the peoples' opposition. Now, many Iranians long for return of the Shah's family to power!

By 1979, Iranians revolted. This revolution included a spectrum of political ideologies. But Khomeini and his backers soon gained power, by assassinations, and the fact that the SAVAK had already silenced many of the other political factions, especially the democratic ones. This helped the religious factions, who also had the safety and the soapbox of mosques, and they became more difficult to control. Shortly after the revolution, Iraq, with the backing of weapon producing countries, attacked Iran. Chemical/Biological weapon technology, which was against international law, was actually provided to Iraq by western countries, and was heavily used against Iranians. But no, these countries weren’t just supporting one side for some justified cause. As we all know, they sold to both sides. This war lasted for 8 years, and during this time the ruling thugs in Iran gained more and more power, under the threat of an invading foreign force. After the war, you started seeing the reform and revolting of Iranians against the Islamic regime. After all this bitterness Iranians must be feeling, tens of thousands of Iranians gave their respect to the 911 victims by gathering in the streets with candles.

A shameless revision of history. The ayatollahs led the Iranian revolution from the beginning. Many of Iran's leftist students decided to go along with the fundamentalists, believing the "masses" would quickly outgrow them. I spoke at a meeting of Iranian students at a major university and warned them that they underestimated the danger posed by the mullahs but they ignored me; many returned to Iran and were executed.

Everybody knows that Iranians are on the verge of a revolution, for a secular democracy. All the polls and events show this. People also know that an attack against Iran would strengthen the mullah regime, due to the threat of a foreign force, like in the Iran-Iraq war, and evident phenomenon throughout human history. The mullahs would love it if they were attacked, because they know it wouldn’t be an all out attack, and they would use the crisis as a way to hold on to power. The Islamic regime in Iran is not really religious, and the people of Iran, and educated people all over the world know this. They are corrupt thugs, and are using this system to control the people. If you read about what they do, you’ll soon understand that they couldn’t care less if they were holding a Koran or a Bible, as long as they are on top .

Nonsense. First, the U.S. doesn't plan to attack Iran and clearly it would be preferable if the Iranians overthrew their Islamist-fascist leaders.

Second, you attempt to whitewash the Islamist-fascists. The people who rule Iran are Islamic fundamentalists, and they demonstrate how Islamic fundamentalism, which doubles as a political ideology, is so much more dangerous than Christian or Jewish fundamentalism.

Turkey is not big on oil, unlike the other "backward countries"...hmm...maybe that's why Turkey has been left alone, while western countries toppled democracies and placed dictatorships, time and time again in the oil rich countries.

Or maybe you just can't accept the fact that Arab people have no democratic tradition and are badly divided over whether democracy is good or just a tool of infidels. Interestingly, you point out the Shah received CIA help in coming to power... but what about the ayatollahs? Are you going to argue that the CIA decided to back the Islamist-fascists when they realized they were far more sinister than the Shah?

It is in the best interest of both the western and middle eastern countries, and for the whole world, to make sure that this trend does not continue. Further attempts at manipulation and oppression of resource rich countries will only add to a history of bitterness and frustration. While a handfull of politicians and companies make a fortune, the common people, on both sides, will end up paying the price.

You claim to believe in democracy -- expressing the will of the people -- but seem to believe that everything is really controlled in the shadows. Actually, there is some relationship between dictatorship and beliefs. People who do not believe in separation of church and state (and this is what Islam still teaches), for example, inevitably end up with dictatorship.

[Simon]

Let me first say that, there is not a single country or state in the world, that actually declares itself to be an Islamic State! All Arab states and Muslim countries, are merely Muslim populations living under the rule of either dictators such as Musharraf or Saddam Husssein, or secular regimes such as Hosni Mubarak and Islam Karimov!

The actions and policies of such countries cannot be used to judge Islam, due to the very basic point that they do not use Islam as a reference for their actions. Had they done so, you would not have had the opportunity to attack and attempt to discredit Islam and its teachings.

What a whopping pile of cowpie.

So let me get this straight. If I can then prove that the countries sponsoring terrorism are self-declared Islamic Republics, what would then happen to your disillusional theory?

Islamic Republic of Pakistan http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/


Islamic Republic of Iran http://www.president.ir/


Taliban (no link needed here)


There are many more.

[1234]

Yes, the U.S. has provided limited support to undemocratic forces and even dictators. This has been the result of the "realpolitik" philosophy that says my enemies' enemy is my friend and that the bad guys can be kept in check by each other -- not by some sinister plot to see the world ruled by dictators.

I never claimed there was a sinister plot to see the world ruled by dictators, and I don’t see how you came up with that. It’s a well documented fact, and openly reported in news papers before 911, that the US was the biggest financial supporter of the Taliban, and I’m not just talking about the Soviet era. The history of active western support for terrorism, dictatorships, and fundamentalism in the Middle East is long and undeniable.

I get it: people who "nationalize" (read: expropriate) other people's property are the true democrats. You sound like an Iranian student from my college days -- the Shah was the worst evil imaginable, but don't worry about those Ayatollahs, they are just a symbol of the peoples' opposition. Now, many Iranians long for return of the Shah's family to power!

If you had read your history before playing advocate, you’d see that Reza Shah was placed in power by force, by GB. This is part of history…but I’ll doubt you’ll hear too much about it on the history channel. Britain actually filed action against Iran in international court, I think in Belgium. Dr. Mossadegh appeared in court, and won. When CIA documents were released regarding the CIA and British backed overthrow of Mossadegh's demorcracy, Madeline Albright actually appologized. What is happening right now will also be another tucked away piece of history, that is not taught to the general public, and ignorant people will actually justify it the way commentators have justified the genocide of the Native American raced on the grounds that they were not using the land for it’s maximum good!!! Ignorance is the worse evil of all. The majority of Iranians do not support the Shah's son, eventhough he is calling for a secular democracy.

A shameless revision of history. The ayatollahs led the Iranian revolution from the beginning. Many of Iran's leftist students decided to go along with the fundamentalists, believing the "masses" would quickly outgrow them. I spoke at a meeting of Iranian students at a major university and warned them that they underestimated the danger posed by the mullahs but they ignored me; many returned to Iran and were executed.

Most people in Iran never expected fanaticism to gain power. It’s a known fact that there was a spectrum of factions. Till this day the overwhelming majority of Iranians are against the regime, and polls from Iran and Iranian communities show that they want a secular democracy. Research it yourself.

Nonsense. First, the U.S. doesn't plan to attack Iran and clearly it would be preferable if the Iranians overthrew their Islamist-fascist leaders.

I never said they are planning to attack Iran, and I have no clue what’s going to happen with that. However, both US and Israel have threatened to attack the Russian/Iranian nuclear power plant. If there is an attack on Iran, it probably would be containment than total takeover and restructuring. This would strengthen the ruling thugs in Iran, as I explained before, because Iranians will protect their land against foreign invaders who are just as parasitical as the ruling regime in Iran.

Second, you attempt to whitewash the Islamist-fascists. The people who rule Iran are Islamic fundamentalists, and they demonstrate how Islamic fundamentalism, which doubles as a political ideology, is so much more dangerous than Christian or Jewish fundamentalism.

If anyone is doing a whitewash it’s you. This primitive black and white mentality is being pushed by western media to explain the current events. “Why do they hate us so much?” Oh, it’s because they’re religious fanatics! The real issues, and the undeniable history and current events are being suppressed. This is the real fundamentalism, a blind and ignorant existence that swallows the most favorable and unbelievable concoctions for their own interest, while denying, suppressing, and not knowing, history and current events. A black and white mentality will give you much comfort, but obviously very little knowledge and logic. The information is out there, it’s documented, but don’t expect to hear about it on that pathetic excuse for journalism which is called mainstream American media.

I’m not pro-Islam by any means, neither by thought nor religious background. In fact, I have much reason to be biased against Islam, given a history of persecution of my family by the Islamic regime of Iran, and yes, including executions. So don’t accuse me of whitewashing Islam or the regime in Iran. Things aren’t black and white, but each side presents them that way. For intellectuals looking for accurate information, one must look at the biased information presented from all sides, rather than just one. One must also understand history. The information is out there, and well documented.

“In war, the truth must be guarded by a bodyguard of lies.”

Churchill

[1234]

Everyone on earth had the same language and the same words. And as they migrated from the east, they came upon a valley in the land of Shinar and settled there. They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them hard.” Bricks served them as stone, and bitumen served them as mortar. And they said, “Come, let us build us a city, and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world.” The Lord came down to look at the city and tower that man had built, and the Lord said, “If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach. Let us, then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another’s speech.” Thus the Lord scattered them from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel [Babylon], because there the Lord confounded [Heb. Balal] the speech of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

TORAH JPS TRANSLATION, GENESIS 10.29

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by 1234
I never claimed there was a sinister plot to see the world ruled by dictators, and I don’t see how you came up with that. It’s a well documented fact, and openly reported in news papers before 911, that the US was the biggest financial supporter of the Taliban, and I’m not just talking about the Soviet era. The history of active western support for terrorism, dictatorships, and fundamentalism in the Middle East is long and undeniable.

You ignore the fact we eventually got it (basically) right. The U.S. drove the Taliban out of power. The U.S. drove Iraq out of Kuwait. The U.S. identified the Islamic-fascist regime in Iran as a key player in the Axis of Evil. The U.S. punished Libya. The U.S. pressured Egypt and Jordan to make peace with Israel.

And the U.S. helped expose the oppression of women under islamic fundamentalism.

If you had read your history before playing advocate, you’d see that Reza Shah was placed in power by force, by GB. This is part of history…but I’ll doubt you’ll hear too much about it on the history channel.

Now who is mischaracterizing people? I don't watch TV. Our house bears a striking resemblance to a library (with over 2,000 books). I never said Reza Shah was a legitimate, elected leader.

Britain actually filed action against Iran in international court, I think in Belgium. Dr. Mossadegh appeared in court, and won. When CIA documents were released regarding the CIA and British backed overthrow of Mossadegh's demorcracy, Madeline Albright actually appologized. What is happening right now will also be another tucked away piece of history, that is not taught to the general public, and ignorant people will actually justify it the way commentators have justified the genocide of the Native American raced on the grounds that they were not using the land for it’s maximum good!!! Ignorance is the worse evil of all. The majority of Iranians do not support the Shah's son, eventhough he is calling for a secular democracy.

You babble about how everyone (but you, of course) is ignorant, but in another thread you claim the US government was behind the WTC attack. I'll bet you even have the Arab or Persian newspapers that revealed the whole plot.

Try reading books instead of tabloids.

Most people in Iran never expected fanaticism to gain power. It’s a known fact that there was a spectrum of factions. Till this day the overwhelming majority of Iranians are against the regime, and polls from Iran and Iranian communities show that they want a secular democracy. Research it yourself.

Most people don't get involved in political movements. But it was plain as day to me and others that the Iranian revolution was about replacing the Shah with a brutally oppressive theocratic state.

I never said most Iranians don't want a secular state. After 20+ years of theocracy, who can blame them? But apparently you haven't noticed that today's rebellion is largely comprised of young people who either weren't born yet or were too young to be aware of what was happening back in the late 70s.

I never said they are planning to attack Iran, and I have no clue what’s going to happen with that. However, both US and Israel have threatened to attack the Russian/Iranian nuclear power plant. If there is an attack on Iran, it probably would be containment than total takeover and restructuring. This would strengthen the ruling thugs in Iran, as I explained before, because Iranians will protect their land against foreign invaders who are just as parasitical as the ruling regime in Iran.

When I said "nonsense" I was referring to your absurd comment that the Iranian Islamic regime is "not really religious."

If anyone is doing a whitewash it’s you. This primitive black and white mentality is being pushed by western media to explain the current events. “Why do they hate us so much?” Oh, it’s because they’re religious fanatics! The real issues, and the undeniable history and current events are being suppressed. This is the real fundamentalism, a blind and ignorant existence that swallows the most favorable and unbelievable concoctions for their own interest, while denying, suppressing, and not knowing, history and current events. A black and white mentality will give you much comfort, but obviously very little knowledge and logic. The information is out there, it’s documented, but don’t expect to hear about it on that pathetic excuse for journalism which is called mainstream American media.

Yet you don't have any problem throwing around false charges. If you sift through my previous posts in this forum, you will find that I have always denied the conflict is simply between "religious fanatics." There is an offshoot from Islam called militant Islam (a.k.a. Islamism) that is more a fascist political ideology than a religion.

I've also argued consistently against those who say history doesn't matter.

I’m not pro-Islam by any means, neither by thought nor religious background. In fact, I have much reason to be biased against Islam, given a history of persecution of my family by the Islamic regime of Iran, and yes, including executions. So don’t accuse me of whitewashing Islam or the regime in Iran. Things aren’t black and white, but each side presents them that way. For intellectuals looking for accurate information, one must look at the biased information presented from all sides, rather than just one. One must also understand history. The information is out there, and well documented.

Well, I have had friends who were Bahais. Some escaped from Iran. I know all about how they were persecuted. (Actually, they were treated worse than Jews, because the mullahs believe that Bahais are actually atheists.)

“In war, the truth must be guarded by a bodyguard of lies.”

Churchill

Churchill was the greatest leader of the 20th century. I've read his history of WW II, the English speaking peoples, and the autobiography of his youth.

Given the severe danger posed to the free world by militant Islam, we desparately need another Churchill to lead a consistent and uncompromising fight against evil.

[Simon]

Lets see the Islamic Apologists try and squeeze their way out of this one. From a Pakistani islamic terrorist web site.


http://www.jamatdawa.org/english/islam/fatawa/004.htm


Q : What is the prescribed way in Islam to greet a Christian?
A : About greeting the disbelievers and polytheists Abu HurairahZ narrates:

The prophet of Allaah said:

Do not greet Jews and Christians first and when you run into them on the way force them to pass through the narrow side of the way. (Sahih Muslim)

This Sahih hadith shows that it is not lawful to greet the Jews and Christians, first because this is tantamount to according them dignity and respect, whereas dignity and honour is only for Allaah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì , His prophet Z and the believers as has been described in Surah Al-Munafiqoon, verse No.8: Honour, power and glory belong to Allaah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì , His Messenger and to the believers.



In Surah Taubah Allaah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì Almighty says:

Fight those who believe not in Allaah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì nor the Last Day…until they pay Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.



It is to create the feeling of humiliation that the Prophet of Allaah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì T is teaching Muslims not to make way for disbelievers and while greeting they generally say As-Sam-o-Alaikum which means death for you. When they say so Muslims should say Wa-Alaikum as is narrated in Sahih Bukhari on the authority of Abdullah bin UmarZ. In conclusion Muslims should not greet disbelievers first and if they greet Muslims should say Wa-Alaikum.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by NoLiMiT-SoulJah
First of all - let us see what you refer to when discussing the religion of Islam..

You refer to the actions of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries.. and use their policies to judge Islam. Let me first say that, there is not a single country or state in the world, that actually declares itself to be an Islamic State! All Arab states and Muslim countries, are merely Muslim populations living under the rule of either dictators such as Musharraf or Saddam Husssein, or secular regimes such as Hosni Mubarak and Islam Karimov!

The actions and policies of such countries cannot be used to judge Islam, due to the very basic point that they do not use Islam as a reference for their actions. Had they done so, you would not have had the opportunity to attack and attempt to discredit Islam and its teachings.

Always remember
"Always Judge a religion by its Scripture - Never by its people!"

Therefore, if you wish to condemn anyone or any country, please refrain from using irrelevant sources. Islam is not being implemented anywhere throughout the world as a complete system, and it is for this reason, that the public viewpoint of Islam has been severely distorted. I honestly, believe, that through discussion and objective thinking.... one will definitely agree to the teachings of Islam.

If you wish to criticise Islam, please refer to the text in the Quran and hadith, and please forward your queries....



Obviously you just throw these words and ran away! Let me assure you that Saudi Arabia follows Islam (and scriptures) letter by letter. I'm willing to bet you on that law by law. For you to feel that the Saudi ruling is shameful and disgusting (hence you don't want to relate it to Islam), that's your problem. Moreover, if you want to go through the Qoruan verse by verse to prove to you that it's the most barbaric ideology ever, I'll be more than happy to do that with you. On the matter of fact, I already did that with tens of Muslims (here in the forum, just go through the old topics) and they all ran away when they get stuck! Hope you are not one of them!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Manuel


Islam was intended as a curative to the power and money-centric philosphy of the Quraysh of Mecca.

Many phrases, pulled out of context (and in ignorance of social custom during the time in which they were written) from any sacred literature can be interpreted as barbaric.

So you are saying that such verses should be removed? I thought that Muslims believe that Koran is the word of God. And as far as I see, God's words don't expire!

Do you know that if you said what you have just said in an Islamic country, what would happen to you? (I leave it to your imagination!).

With my all respect, what you wrote is completely non-sense. If we have a book that need to have a "revised second edition", THEN THIS BOOK CAN NEVER BE FROM GOD.

Do you know why Koran can't work except for barbaric animals? Because Koran was meant by Muhammad to fulfill his sexual and need-to-power desires. Obviously these can't be the guidelines for civilized and human societies.

[Mediocrates]

what's your point?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Manuel


Let me go down a different road:

I am saying nothing that is not explicity spelled out in my post.



Ezra, why did Muhammad leave Mecca for Yathrib?

Because of Qoraysh.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Manuel


Let me go down a different road:

I am saying nothing that is not explicity spelled out in my post.



Please answer directly. No one here has time for these games.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Manuel
Your Koraan is so clear in its PRINCIPAL:

1) Anyone who doesn't believe in Mohammad is infidel.
2) Any infidel should be killed.


1) Mohammad is a well documented historical figure. Do you "believe" in George Washington? If you mean to say Mohammad's message, it isn't his message, it came from God? If you don't believe in God, you are by definition without FAITH ( IN (not) FIDEL (Faithful) ). Mohammad's message was taken in by those who (MU ) submitted ( SLIM from saliim - to submit ). Those who submit to God are the faithful.

2) Crapola. Why don't you read surah Taubah in its entirety to see just how many types of people Muslims should never kill.

- Infidels who don't attack us
- Infidels who do attack us and then stop
- Infidels with whom we have treaties
- Infidels who ask refuge of us

Time and again, the message of the Quran is to let non-believers to their own devices.

And I suppose that same sort of message is contained in the Bible, though it didn't stop the Christian Rwandans from being swayed into genocide from the pulpit.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Manuel


Leviticus 20:9


Leviticus 20:10


Leviticus 20:13



My personal favorite:

Leviticus 20:27


Another of my favorites:

Leviticus 24:16



GREAT!

All what you mentioned is internal within the Judaism. If you don't like it, you can just convert to anything else. Whether to change these things or not, has to do with Jewish since it has no effect on others (i.e. you!).

NOW LET'S GO BACK TO ISLAM…..
What do you say about killing infidels? How about "Had el reddah" (killing whoever convert away from Islam)? How about the order of Jihad against whoever don't believe in Muhammad? Haaa?

[elke]

Originally posted by Manuel


Leviticus 20:9


Leviticus 20:10


Leviticus 20:13



My personal favorite:

Leviticus 20:27


Another of my favorites:

Leviticus 24:16


Do you know when was the last time either Jews or Christians have followed these "commandments"?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Ezra



GREAT!

All what you mentioned is internal within the Judaism. If you don't like it, you can just convert to anything else. Whether to change these things or not, has to do with Jewish since it has no effect on others (i.e. you!).

NOW LET'S GO BACK TO ISLAM…..
What do you say about killing infidels? How about "Had el reddah" (killing whoever convert away from Islam)? How about the order of Jihad against whoever don't believe in Muhammad? Haaa?

Actually the conditions for prosecuting a capital crime are extremely stringent. This section has to do with the theoretical punishment, not how it is achieved. That actual criteria include at least 2 eye witnesses of impeccable character and an legal inability to mete out any other punishment. There are even succinct provisos to the cases you mention that can be performed in lieu of legal punishment. In fact the only places where there is documented evidence of capital crimes are crimes against God and religion like Jezebel or, in cases like Jael who killed a solider to protect Jews in time of war. The Mish Patim or civil code contains all sorts of references to what is not permitted but barely a word about what the punishments actually are.

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by ibrodsky


Well, you have identified a second problem. Most Christians and Jews view
religion as supreme when it comes to matters of faith and values. But they
recognize it is crucial to allow science, education, and civil society to
operate independently of religion.


Apart from the Talmud, the other religions do not have outlines for matters
of state. Not that I have found anyway. Islam addresses issues of society,
economics, knowledge, law, etc, and one of the biggest duties of Muslims is to
work for social justice, whether they are minority or majority. Its in the books
and that the opinion of scolars today. You have identified a great obstacle in
Western understanding with the situation of seculization, and democracy.
As you have said, Secularization is considered a sine qua non for modernization(secular-Like the West.

As one person named Madani(leader of FIS)said:

Democracy cnnot be given the same philosophical and political interpretation
as that of Pragmatic philosophers like Adam Smith, Kant, and Dewey, who define
it as the right to exercise capital freedom, even if it exceeds the needs of other
classes of society. Democracy in the US in a liberal and pragmatic sense, has
given the indiviadual moe rights to personal freedoms at the expense of the group.

According to him, Madani(he is not a religious leeader-only political): Democracy is
should be a system in which the outline is given by Islamic political system.
Individuals aree allowed to vote, compete of elective office, and govern. This
back in the history of Islam has applied to Non-Muslims, some of whome heeld
high government positions in the Islamic Empire.

To this day, Islam is still backwards compared to Copernicus.
He made a wonderfully eloquent argument that scientists must have the freedom
to propose whatever theories they want -- even theories that contradict
accepted religious dogma. I recommend everyone read this!

What aspect of Islam do you base your baseless accuzations upon? I would appreciate
it if you could mention examples from Islamic Juridprudence, etc.




No, countries like Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban, and Saudi Arabia
are examples of failures. They made Islam king, and the result was extreme
regimentation, oppression, hatred, and violence.

Thats very vague. I know you are wrong, but to give your the benefit of doubt,
can you prove that these violations are the result of Islam and not politics, etc?
The ME is MUCH more complex that you would like people to think.

Unlike Iran and Saudi Arabia, countries whose primary exports are oil and
terrorism, Turkey is a more modern and genuinely productive country. They
have the right to prevent religious fascism from preempting democracy.


I hate to mention this to you again , but Turkey is a radical secular state.
They have committed huge, if not the same as the "other" countries, huge
human rights abuses to people they term fanatic. However, many of these
people were Muslims that wanted multi-party system in Turkey, but they
were repressed, and their rights of free speech, etc were taken away from them.
For many in Turkey, they are still living in the 19th century. They do not
let the people have basic freedoms that we in the West enjoy and believ that
all secular countries give. However, the elitist establishment of Turkey
fear a Islamic presense in their country. They (the elitists) view any
party that works for religous freedom to be a threat. They in turn suppress theirr
own population. They are not doing any better than the countries you consider
backwards except they are doing the exact opposite.

But the point is they aren't making any contributions to modernism
because they reject modern values and lifestyles. What they (and you) don't
seem to understand is that you either choose to live in the 7th century --
treating the Koran as the complete guide to everything -- or you choose to
live in the 21st century, treating strict adherence to scripture as a purely
personal choice.

Every nation faces critical stages in its development. When you add oil,
imprealism, future shock, and bad leadership, to that equation, it
takes even longer. It is You that don't know about Islamic movements. Islamic
politics must be viewed within the context of their country.
You are quoting things from the 1970's. Get over it. Times have changed, and
Islamic movements(evolution, and revolutions) are not talking about going back,
but instaed preparing for the future. Many readily welcome technology, etc,
the vast majority share a common call for the transformation of society not a
blind return like you say, but a response to the present.

Your understanding of the complexity of Islamic politics are fundamentally
unsound. Read about Tunisia, Algeria, etc. Try to look beyond the flashing
headliners of Daniel Pipes, and Charles Krathummer.

[Intellectualme]

Originally posted by ibrodsky


Not quite. Islamic philosophers were very prominent during the medieval times and made important contributions.

But they did not set the stage for the separate development of secular society as Maimonides and Aquinas did. Avicenna avoided the issue, and Algazali came down firmly on the side of giving religious dogma priority over human investigation.

The early Muslim Philpsophers preserved, commented, and advanced the subjects
that they exelled in.. and many were what came to be known as Renaissance men.


Maimonides and Thomas Aquinas could not have developed their thinking if
it had not been for the works of Muslims and Greeks. It is well known, that if
Maimonides had to choose between the God of Scriptures to the God of Philosophers,
he would choose the God of Scriptures above all else. His treatise makes that
crystal clear. What Islam was able to introduce to the world for the
first time was a hybrid philosophy that acknowldged the presence of God
and sought to answer questions about the rational world. Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi all
testify to that. Read them.


But this was the original work of the Greeks; the Islamic philosophers were mainly interpreters and commentators.

Greek work by itself was neither appealing to Muslims, Christians or Jews. The
fact that not only did Muslims do extensive commentary and interpretation, they
indroduced new methods of rational/spritiual thinking that allowed
event the religous to explain the world in rational terms.



No, Islam opposes separation of church and state and, therefore,
cannot promote "universal values." It is well known that in Islam there are
three major groups of people: Muslims, Christians and Jews, and non-believers.
An Islamic state treats each of the three groups differently. Thus, there is
institutionalized inequality before the law.

Wrong. Seperation of Church and State are not Universal Values.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are. Those rights ARE promoted by
Islam. One of you greater misconceptions about Islamic Law, is that in the
Islamic State, the three religions are allowed to follow legal procedures, etc
as they wish. Non-Muslims are not subject to Islamic Shariah. They can form
their own courts, whose desicions will be honored by the Islamic Courts, and
Non-Muslims can also choose their own judges etc. Only time that they are
brought before a Qadi is when they have committed a crime against the state,
or a crime involving a Muslim.



Algazali won the debate. In Islam, the Koran is Truth and
everything else must conform. This is why today some Muslims even try to
claim that the Koran anticipated all great scientific discoveries by
associating vague passages with, for example, the Big Bang theory. This is
just silliness.

You are wrongAl Gazali, like Maimonides, and Judah Ha Levi believed that religion provided
the outline on which humans must base their thoughts. Have you read Ibn Khaldun?
Have you ever read the Quran? I don't know what Muslims you've been talking to, but the
thing I keep telling you is that Quran is not just supposed to be a spiritual
book. For example, it explains, economics, politics, war, peace, personal life,
and sciences. Thats not some vague statements,etc. It is considered a
complete book, I have yet to find such detail on all subjects in other
scriptures. Muslims, like other People of the Book do not believe in the Big
Bang Theory. Thats crazy.

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
Do you know when was the last time either Jews or Christians have followed these "commandments"? Yes, Elke, that's the point :)

[serdar]

Arabs are not the enemy, Islam is the enemy
well, whats arabs religion?

[KettleWhistle]

Plenty of Muslims and mostly-Muslim states in Central Asia have no prejudices about either Jews or Israel.

[serdar]

Plenty of Muslims and mostly-Muslim states in Central Asia have no prejudices about either Jews or Israel.
good point but i personally couldnt understand what you exactly mentioned.
if people see islam as an enemy, why should they accept a country like indonesia as an enemy? Has indonesia got any relation, argue or anything with Jews and Israel?
if im wrong pls correct me

[ygalg1]

good point but i personally couldnt understand what you exactly mentioned.
if people see islam as an enemy, why should they accept a country like indonesia as an enemy? Has indonesia got any relation, argue or anything with Jews and Israel?
if im wrong pls correct me

Muslims obligated to join for jihad no matter who’s the enemy

[Bahia]

Have all those conflicts in the world really have to do with religion?. May be it makes it more complicated but in the end, everywhere there are tribal conflicts between naighbours/country's.

When my maroccan naighbour is terrorizing me and I finally got out on the street to defend myself with my hockeystick, I used to play hockey, it has not to do with his religion or mine but with disharmony between our caracters.

So I called the police to interfere and did not bother his imam, my referent or rabbi, who after all cannot interfere at all in a violent situation.

The Police talked with me, with him and like the end of a soccer game we shooke hands (but I did not trust him after all). So we need independent forces to make us shaking hands. Even if we have lost the game for the moment.!

And we need hockeysticks, tennisrackets and such!

[NiekNL]

Have all those conflicts in the world really have to do with religion?. May be it makes it more complicated but in the end, everywhere there are tribal conflicts between naighbours/country's.

When my maroccan naighbour is terrorizing me and I finally got out on the street to defend myself with my hockeystick, I used to play hockey, it has not to do with his religion or mine but with disharmony between our caracters.

So I called the police to interfere and did not bother his imam, my referent or rabbi, who after all cannot interfere at all in a violent situation.

The Police talked with me, with him and like the end of a soccer game we shooke hands (but I did not trust him after all). So we need independent forces to make us shaking hands. Even if we have lost the game for the moment.!

And we need hockeysticks, tennisrackets and such!

Well, al these conflicts have to do with religion<
Why do you have an arguement with that Moroccan?
I bet if it was a Chinese Boedhist, an Indian Hindu or an Israelian Jew there wouldn't have been any fight!
It's just the point that nearly everywhere where wars/conflicts etc are going on there are Muslims involved> that's a fact!

[Bahia]

Everywhere were human beings are involved.

[ygalg1]

Everywhere were human beings are involved.
In the mean time this war we witness its about religion

I think Islam could have be in the place of Honor if these fanatics stop monopolize it

No Muslim known today can possible to be a prophet

[Bahia]

In the mean time this war we witness its about religion

I think Islam could have be in the place of Honor if these fanatics stop monopolize it

No Muslim known today can possible to be a prophet

I agree that Islam could make a true movement towards peace in the world don't you think they need a kind of prophet for it?

[ygalg1]

I agree that Islam could make a true movement towards peace in the world don't you think they need a kind of prophet for it?
they need to wake up from their delusion

[NiekNL]

they need to wake up from their delusion

Exactly, and how?
I think there is only one way:
This generation of Muslims is brainwashed already:
So, we can't help them anymore.
But the next generation we have to prevent from
getting all the hate messages from the prophets.

And that's impossible....

so any sugestions for other ways?

[Bahia]

Exactly, and how?
I think there is only one way:
This generation of Muslims is brainwashed already:
So, we can't help them anymore.
But the next generation we have to prevent from
getting all the hate messages from the prophets.

And that's impossible....

so any sugestions for other ways?


Well I don't think that prophets give hate messages. It are the people always
who misinterprete.

[NiekNL]

Well I don't think that prophets give hate messages. It are the people always
who misinterprete.

Well, very strange that so many Muslims misinterpreteted it?
The imams explain the prophets messages to the people, okay?
And could they all misinterpretated it? I don't think so.
The Prophets message was just one filled with hate>

[qistina255]

Well, very strange that so many Muslims misinterpreteted it?
The imams explain the prophets messages to the people, okay?
And could they all misinterpretated it? I don't think so.
The Prophets message was just one filled with hate>

Peace,
i'm willing to accept what u say....but the only thing that stops me is that u keep saying bad thing 'bout my religion without giving any exemple or argument. :)
so if u can find me a concret exemple, it'll help a lot, :D

[NiekNL]

Peace,
i'm willing to accept what u say....but the only thing that stops me is that u keep saying bad thing 'bout my religion without giving any exemple or argument. :)
so if u can find me a concret exemple, it'll help a lot, :D


Actually, there are a lot of mosques who pray hate.
And the people wo go there can't ignore that hate, right?
So in some mosques people learn to hate non-muslim people.
And the result: (I will take a for me close example)
You see Muslim boys from 4, 5 years old who are saying, we hate you, we hate you, you're not a Muslim! And I'm quite shocked every time I hear this again. But boys grow up, and whem they are 12, 13 they start to use violance against us. And these are not just incidents. The sad truth in Holland :( .

[andak01]

Exactly, and how?
I think there is only one way:
This generation of Muslims is brainwashed already:
So, we can't help them anymore.
But the next generation we have to prevent from
getting all the hate messages from the prophets.

And that's impossible....

so any sugestions for other ways?

Prophets? What prophets? Our prophets include Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus...(peace and blessings unto all of them). Just saying Muslims (all of us) are an unreasonable lot is a crock. Plenty of us do quite well by any standard you wish to put us to.

[Bahia]

Prophets? What prophets? Our prophets include Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus...(peace and blessings unto all of them). Just saying Muslims (all of us) are an unreasonable lot is a crock. Plenty of us do quite well by any standard you wish to put us to.

We (christians, jews, muslims) are more brother and sisters after all!
We quarrel and fight with tremendous violence in our own familie about borders.

[Bahia]

Exactly, and how?
I think there is only one way:
This generation of Muslims is brainwashed already:
So, we can't help them anymore.
But the next generation we have to prevent from
getting all the hate messages from the prophets.

And that's impossible....

so any sugestions for other ways?

I utterly (good english word?) disagree with you saying that the generation of Muslims is brainwashed already. Only the hate spreading terrorist are. But extremism is not something invented by Muslims. We in our Western society have also a past of terrorism and hate!, towards other believers and cultures.

I happened to have very pleasant contacts with my Muslim dutch and belgium friends. My belgium Muslim friend is a liberal Muslim, goes sometimes to a mosk and is the most gentle and wise person I almost met in my life.
(He could be the new prophet, but I think he would not like it to be anyway!)

My Muslim/Arabic friends of the internetcafé helped me to get on this forum and after my writings I like to discuss a bit with them. A lovely Maroccan boy of about 7 years whitnessed our discussions about Moses being a Jew and he loved it, only to hear that name. He was so interested and thrilled. ( so I had to put the dialog calm for his sake!)

So I will defend my Muslim friends always as I will defend my Jewish friends.
But I will never defend violence, hate , fundamentalism, terrorism and opression. And I hope that Israel will have the ability to remain wise although they have been attacked in the past and in the present.

I fully can understand that they have the right to defend themselves and that they do so. But I hope that at the end they are more wise than there agressors however they have to act for it almost superhumanly. And that is not fair! But in the end life is not fair anyway. I hope my prayers for Israel do make a bit sence.

But anyhow I refuse to dislike the muslims! I only dislike those who use unproportional violence be they christians, muslims or jews.

[serdar]

if you think twice you will remember that humanity comes from two persons. if you believe in god, you can realize...

i think religions are nothing else than politics... ;)

[Bahia]

Politics abuse the religions also, they have always done so.

[serdar]

you all look at yourself, look at other people or look at me... Christian Muslim Jewish Budha Indu and all others in an active war/fight...

All the holy books says " the people who is not in "blablah" religion, will suffer in the hell" and sametime says "do not fight, always keep peace"...

what's wrong with God? or what's wrong with us?

We are religious but we are killing each other, we do not go along with our religions...

and i always had a question to god:

Why always God renews religions? why there came different religions? what was wrong with Jewish Religion? why christianity, why islam came after Jewish religion? is it magazine press???

oh God, forgive me but i am sometimes angry to you :rolleyes:

[Bahia]

Yes we do not go along with our religions.
Maybe that's why we are on earth and not in heaven?!

[serdar]

i have 1 more thing to say:

this converting is stupitest thing, i mean converting religion to religion...

* think that Jews wanted to convert idolater, and pagans hated Jews.
* then new release by God, Christianity... Christians wanted to conver Paganists and Jews. Then Paganists and Jews hated Christians.
* bingo!!! one more release by God, Islam :eek: seems like big trouble. Islam wanted to convert every EVERY EVERY religions to Islam... Convert whatever you can find, muslims even wanted to convert donkeys, cows and other animals. I mean everything had to be muslim, even the cat which always wants milk from you.

once a muslim said to cat, "be muslim, then come here, i can only give milk to muslim cats"...

well naturally all religions and animals (specially cat) hated muslims. then all other religions had hatred to Islam. includes cats =Pp

anyway, after all im asking that is God really exist? if God knows that there will be fights and wars between religions, and supports peace, why God releases religions? what is next religion then? if there are wars and fights, what is next religion???!!
now im really angry to God

[Bahia]

But it is a complicated mather after all, so you have the right to be sometimes angry.

I have been also angry but it did not change my believe in God. And I don't think God will love you or me less when we are sometimes angry!

[serdar]

But it is a complicated mather after all, so you have the right to be sometimes angry.

I have been also angry but it did not change my believe in God. And I don't think God will love you or me less when we are sometimes angry!
well, God makes us angry... reason is "HE" and he knows it. he knows that religions will make people hate, fight and so on...

is the world a chess-board and are the players God v.s. Satan?

look at me, i am Turkish. my country's all neighbours are enemy, and includes also MUSLIM countries... is this islamic brotherhood?

look at me, im living in Finland, Russia is a static enemy to Finland, includes christianity, is this Christianity brotherhood?

look at Israel, all areound mid east enemy to the Israel. is it the modern islam and islam's respect to other people and other religions?

[Bahia]

Those poor cats!

But I hope i will not offend God by saying that after all give God a break.
He has after all to manage this whole stupid earth.
And we are most of the times not clever enough to understand it so he tries it in different ways?!

[serdar]

Those poor cats!

But I hope i will not offend God by saying that after all give God a break.
He has after all to manage this whole stupid earth.
And we are most of the times not clever enough to understand it so he tries it in different ways?!


i think we believe more to God and spell his name when we are saying

"oh my god" or "god, damn it" :rolleyes:

[qistina255]

I happened to have very pleasant contacts with my Muslim dutch and belgium friends. My belgium Muslim friend is a liberal Muslim, goes sometimes to a mosk and is the most gentle and wise person I almost met in my life.
(He could be the new prophet, but I think he would not like it to be anyway!)

o I will defend my Muslim friends always as I will defend my Jewish friends.
But I will never defend violence, hate , fundamentalism, terrorism and opression. And I hope that Israel will have the ability to remain wise although they have been attacked in the past and in the present.

But anyhow I refuse to dislike the muslims! I only dislike those who use unproportional violence be they christians, muslims or jews.

Peace,
Yeah, when u talk about terrorism, why islam that goes to trial....i happen to know a lot of muslims who dissaprove terrorism...it isn't written in the quran that we have to kill all non-muslims...indeed it is forbidden for us.
I also know so many wonderfull christians and atheist ;) . so like u i would even die to safe a non-muslim life's if he/her isn't against my religion...no matter what they do...to stop the terrorism in this world. :)

[Bahia]

When the oldtestament, thora, new testament and the quaran were written, people lived in rural environments. They had to protect themselves from wolves, lions and lived most of all on the countrysites. Live was far more harder with tribal conflicts and not knowing about each other cultures.
So in that respect I can understand that there were so many words about enemies etc.

They did not had the education we have nowadays, so they spoke in a different lanquage. I don't think we have to take it all literally.

[qistina255]

anyway, after all im asking that is God really exist? if God knows that there will be fights and wars between religions, and supports peace, why God releases religions? what is next religion then? if there are wars and fights, what is next religion???!!
now im really angry to God
Peace, :D
i like u'r direct question and i'll try to answer u'r question by telling u this story.
Once upon a time, there was this man who has a very long hair and beard. one day he decided to cut his hair and his beard. So he went to a barber shop to cut his hair. he entered the shop and sat in front of the mirror.
So the barber just asked him some questions while cutting his hair>>>
Barber: What's u'r name sir???
He: My name's Abdullah.
Barber: So u'r a muslim...(started to lough)
He:Yep, i'm a muslim....
Barber: Say sir...do u believe in God?
He:Yes, indeed
Barber: I don't believe in God...if there's really a God he must be just. How come there's war in this world??? if there's really a God, he wouldn't let all this thing happen, he wouldn't let people die with hunger etc etc...
Abdullah just listened and didn't even answer.
After the barber finished with his work, Abdullah left the barber...just outside the barber shop, he saw a man with long hair and beard sitting on a pavement doing nothing.
So he entered the barber shop for the second time and said to the barber
He:Sincerly,i think that there's no such thing as barber. I don't believe in barber....
Barber: What are u talking about...i've just cut u'r hair, i'm in front of you!!!!(started to go mad)
He: No, barber doesn't exist, if he exist how come there's a man with long hair on that pavement?...if there's a barber, then everyone would have short proper hair.
Barber: well it isn't my fault if he has long hair...he didn't come to my shop!!!
He:And how can u accuse the God if there's a war in this world..u don't go to God, u didn't asked for his guidance...and u want God to help you?

There's no religion and no prophet after muhammad (peace be upon him).
Moses and Jesus(peace be upon them) came with the same message as Muhammad (pbuh). To guide people and worship THE ONE GOD.Muhammad is the last prophet came 600 years after Jesus (peace be upon them)

[Bahia]

A really nice story about the barber!
I hope Serdar will read it!

[serdar]

Peace, :D
i like u'r direct question and i'll try to answer u'r question by telling u this story.
Once upon a time, there was this man who has a very long hair and beard. one day he decided to cut his hair and his beard. So he went to a barber shop to cut his hair. he entered the shop and sat in front of the mirror.
So the barber just asked him some questions while cutting his hair>>>
Barber: What's u'r name sir???
He: My name's Abdullah.
Barber: So u'r a muslim...(started to lough)
He:Yep, i'm a muslim....
Barber: Say sir...do u believe in God?
He:Yes, indeed
Barber: I don't believe in God...if there's really a God he must be just. How come there's war in this world??? if there's really a God, he wouldn't let all this thing happen, he wouldn't let people die with hunger etc etc...
Abdullah just listened and didn't even answer.
After the barber finished with his work, Abdullah left the barber...just outside the barber shop, he saw a man with long hair and beard sitting on a pavement doing nothing.
So he entered the barber shop for the second time and said to the barber
He:Sincerly,i think that there's no such thing as barber. I don't believe in barber....
Barber: What are u talking about...i've just cut u'r hair, i'm in front of you!!!!(started to go mad)
He: No, barber doesn't exist, if he exist how come there's a man with long hair on that pavement?...if there's a barber, then everyone would have short proper hair.
Barber: well it isn't my fault if he has long hair...he didn't come to my shop!!!
He:And how can u accuse the God if there's a war in this world..u don't go to God, u didn't asked for his guidance...and u want God to help you?

There's no religion and no prophet after muhammad (peace be upon him).
Moses and Jesus(peace be upon them) came with the same message as Muhammad (pbuh). To guide people and worship THE ONE GOD.Muhammad is the last prophet came 600 years after Jesus (peace be upon them)

yeah it was damn cool :D

however im still a prtestant Christian Turk and did not convert as islam while i was in Turkey. i see many short story as you wrote, but as you know, if we merge all of these short stories, there should be peace... this is the point. my religion or my believing is my personal opinion. i generally mentioned "if we are Jewish Christian Muslim or others, why we dont go along with our religions"... ;)

[Leon]

Peace,
i'm willing to accept what u say....but the only thing that stops me is that u keep saying bad thing 'bout my religion without giving any exemple or argument. :)
so if u can find me a concret exemple, it'll help a lot, :D

peace,

Ive got nothing against Muslims. No I'm not anti-Muslim I'm just against inhumanity - ye know honor killings, female genitle mutilation, terrorism/murder for political and religious purposes and hatred and incitement to murder preached in mosques in Europe, Asia, America, Middle East and Australia.

Im against those who wish to take over the world. unfortunatley a majority of them happen to be Muslim.

Hows that?

[qistina255]

yeah it was damn cool :D

however im still a prtestant Christian Turk and did not convert as islam while i was in Turkey. i see many short story as you wrote, but as you know, if we merge all of these short stories, there should be peace... this is the point. my religion or my believing is my personal opinion. i generally mentioned "if we are Jewish Christian Muslim or others, why we dont go along with our religions"... ;)
peace,
yes, me too i wish that we can get along practising our faith and respecting each other. but is'a long way to go...peace is here and always here, but there's always a revenge beside it... :rolleyes:

[qistina255]

peace,
Im against those who wish to take over the world. unfortunatley a majority of them happen to be Muslim.

Hows that?
Peace,
:) like u, i'm not a racist and i respect u'r faith. but i'm not quite sure when u say that muslims want to take over the world 'cause i know that people of palestine, afghanistan,kosovo, chechnya, maluku, acheh are fighting (persecuted) in their land for their independant ....so if u can give me an exemple of 'muslims who want to rule the world' it would be helpful ;)

[Leon]

it isn't written in the quran that we have to kill all non-muslims...indeed it is forbidden for us.


Try telling that to mainstream imams in Europe, Middle east and asia. it might be just a case of you having a different version of the Koran.

But then again you might be right. A imam of the Palestinian Authority who recently broadcast on Palestinian Authority television might agree with you. according to him the Koran does not say to kill all non muslims, rather one has to kill all Jews and subjugate the rest of the non-muslim population.

[serdar]

peace,
yes, me too i wish that we can get along practising our faith and respecting each other. but is'a long way to go...peace is here and always here, but there's always a revenge beside it... :rolleyes:
i actually dont care religion, just a human should to be human, not shark ;)

[qistina255]

Try telling that to mainstream imams in Europe, Middle east and asia. it might be just a case of you having a different version of the Koran.

Peace,
just some info for u, we only have one version of the holy Quran. So the quran i'm holding now is the same that those imams are holding. btw, can u give me their speech? :rolleyes:

But then again you might be right. A imam of the Palestinian Authority who recently broadcast on Palestinian Authority television might agree with you. according to him the Koran does not say to kill all non muslims, rather one has to kill all Jews and subjugate the rest of the non-muslim population.
agains, Allah taala forbids us to kill even a single fly who didn't attack us. As long as they're not against us (against humanity) we are bound to defend them.

[serdar]

i'd like to ask that, islam says ' islam is the most modern religion '
but why people closes all body? do you think is it modern?

think that, human should to get b12 vitamine from the sun, its a need for your bones, but how can a muslim woman get b12 vitamine from the sun?

[Leon]

Peace,
:) like u, i'm not a racist and i respect u'r faith. but i'm not quite sure when u say that muslims want to take over the world

ploughing civilian airlines into building might be a little bit of a clue. Conquering the world for "Islam" as preached in mosques from the Palestinian Authority to london, Paris and Indonesia and beyond is another little hint.


'cause i know that people of palestine, afghanistan,kosovo, chechnya, maluku, acheh are fighting (persecuted) in their land for their independant ....so if u can give me an exemple of 'muslims who want to rule the world' it would be helpful ;)

I can tell you a little bit about the people of 'palestine' who are fighting ("persecuted") in "their land": people with legitmate grievances and who are really persecuted do not turn down an offer for a creation of their own state (in this case by the UN in 1948) and instead opt for all out bloodshed, voilence, war and genocide all because they cannot tolerate living side by side with another country (in this case Israel - created by the very same mandate).

And they dont dedicate their entire lives and goals for purpose of genocide and ethnic cleansing (in this case throwing all the Jews into the sea). They dont spend 99.9% of their time targetting civilians in homicide bombing attacks and shooting primarly women and children.

Interestingly genuinly persecuted people dont have the privilage to exercise their own free and independet media with TV, radio and newspapers, where their religious leaders among others not only call for the murder of Jews but for the domination of the entire world for Islam.

Its kinda ironic that you mention Aceh - since its a christian nation fighting off Islamic colonalist oppression.

and speaking of irony - its kind of interesting that on another thread you state that you are against "those who wish to dominate the world -and a majority of them happen to be Jewish" and "Im against zionism/I;m against inhumanity". interesting because over 90% of the world's conflicts involve Muslim countries and/or Islamic terrorists and some of the worst inhumanities are committed by Islamist radicals and as mentioned conquering and dominating the world (through voilence, murder rape and blood shed) is rallying cry of Islamists.

[FOGOMAINS]

We (christians, jews, muslims) are more brother and sisters after all!
We quarrel and fight with tremendous violence in our own familie about borders.
Without religions the world could be a nice place ;)

[Gilgamesh]

Without religions the world could be a nice place ;)My religion stand is the base of Western thinking. My religion is my identity and my way of life. My religion done nobody any harm.

So please, speak for yourself.

Religions, opinions, cultures and human mentality, can be good and could be evil and could be evil which turns into good. The problem is always the humans who hold such religions, not religions itself.

[Mediocrates]

Without religions the world could be a nice place ;)


Who was it said that if God didn't exist man would have to invent Him? Religion is a complicated thing - sometimes it involves God or gods and sometimes it involves people. I can't for the life of me find a meaningful distinction between religion and some forms of rabid anarcho-socialism, Marxism and other belief systems founded on myth, faith, ideology and dogma. Blame it in Galileo who placed Man at the center of the uinverse.

[Emunah]

Yes, there are plenty of Muslim wars, and plenty of them are sectarian too. There are Islamic suicide bombers, and this is true, but I notice they have to import these suiciders to Iraq, because the Iraqis are not, and never have been, too much into blowing themselves up. It's easy to find tidy little boxes for things, it makes life simpler, but life, religion and even ethnicity are rarely so easily condensed.

[FOGOMAINS]

My religion stand is the base of Western thinking. My religion is my identity and my way of life. My religion done nobody any harm.

So please, speak for yourself.

Religions, opinions, cultures and human mentality, can be good and could be evil and could be evil which turns into good. The problem is always the humans who hold such religions, not religions itself.

agree absolutly

[Achihud]

There's no religion and no prophet after muhammad (peace be upon him). NO, because Mohammed was a self appointed prophet like the no-good prophets of Baal.
Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) came with the same message as Muhammad (pbuh). NO, Moses knew all the secrets of true spiritism and used them in the way of efod and Tabernacle. Jesus knew all the secrets too and learned his pupils how to use them in spiritism prayer. Mohammed was just a high sensitive medium who fell for lying spirits, the WE-spirits from Qu’ran. Those spirits never learned Mohammed the secret knowledge (it would reveal their lies) and so Mohammed could never learn his followers. Instead he conjured them with an endless chant saying jews and christians are ignorant, ignorant, ignorant and if they are not, why are they divided? Here is a point of relevance, the endless chant, but does it necessary mean that muslims are knowing??? Do muslims know anything from the god of the bible, I mean just anything...and I will prove you wrong.
To guide people and worship THE ONE GOD. NO, If there appeared a Greek prophet who said; "There’s only one god; Zeus is God and the messanger is his prophet!" Or try this one for free, if there appeared a Roman prophet who said; "There’s only one god; Jupiter is God and the messanger is his prophet." Would this have anything to do with the god of Israel? Only those who don’t know the true god of Israel fall for a false prophet! Shall I continue with the prophet Mohammed?
That is why Mohammed has no prophesies to offer and all of his is wishful thinking. Obviously the only thing that is left for muslims is undying frustration, hatred for everything they know nothing about, and restless looking for a non-muslim homeland to convert into islam society because of all the muslim countries in the world there’s no one decent enough to feel happy in it. Behold the fruits from guidance of a false prophet! True religion however brings about the greatest freedom of personal choice, to misjudge it’s truth, to abuse it’s freedom, to fall asleep in all distractions freedom bears in it, to fall asleep when the enemy enters with religious superstition like that of islam! But guess what, you’re still not going to win because you have no truth! Now, do you want me to quote some?

[qistina255]

PEACE TO U :) NO, because Mohammed was a self appointed prophet like the no-good prophets of Baal.
Peace,
Muhammad has brought the great changement to the world, even in YOUR Taura and Bible..Muhammad's name was written....do u actually believe in u'r holky book?
-
NO, Moses knew all the secrets of true spiritism and used them in the way of efod and Tabernacle. Jesus knew all the secrets too and learned his pupils how to use them in spiritism prayer. Mohammed was just a high sensitive medium who fell for lying spirits, the WE-spirits from Qu’ran. Those spirits never learned Mohammed the secret knowledge (it would reveal their lies) and so Mohammed could never learn his followers. Instead he conjured them with an endless chant saying jews and christians are ignorant, ignorant, ignorant and if they are not, why are they divided?
Moses (peace be upon him) only knew what God has given him..not more than that. same thing with jesus ad muhammad (peace be upon them all)
SPIRIT doesn't exist in Islam. We're talking 'bout GUIDANCE. There's no lie in GUIDANCE from God. Muhammad was guided by God to lead human race.

Instead he conjured them with an endless chant saying jews and christians are ignorant, ignorant, ignorant and if they are not, why are they divided?
Please, give me one hadeeth stating on what u said, :D

Here is a point of relevance, the endless chant, but does it necessary mean that muslims are knowing??? Do muslims know anything from the god of the bible, I mean just anything...and I will prove you wrong.
Muslims are those who believe in MOses, Jesus, Muhammad (Peace be upon them)and who worship THE ONE GOD. The God of the bible and the taura is the God of the holy Quran. Have u ever read the Quran??? we do know a lot bout OUR God. it s written in the Quran. but do u know our point of view of trynity?? we even have the trinity in our holy book.
Want some recitation? :rolleyes:
Obviously the only thing that is left for muslims is undying frustration, hatred for everything they know nothing about, and restless looking for a non-muslim homeland to convert into islam society because of all the muslim countries in the world there’s no one decent enough to feel happy in it.
Do you know that ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION in the United States, Canada and Europe? I wonder how're those 'intelligent peole can easily embrace Islam...maybe because they've found SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE in the Quran and sunna (act of prophet) in fact, ISLAM is the fastest growing religion in the world.> have u ever wonder why?

True religion however brings about the greatest freedom of personal choice, to misjudge it’s truth, to abuse it’s freedom, to fall asleep in all distractions freedom bears in it, to fall asleep when the enemy enters with religious superstition like that of islam!
True religion only comes from ONE GOD.God of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them)

But guess what, you’re still not going to win because you have no truth! Now, do you want me to quote some?
I don't wanna win. what for???
truth??? want some??? what kind of truth?

[Achihud]

Moses (peace be upon him) only knew what God has given him..not more than that. same thing with jesus ad muhammad (peace be upon them all) SPIRIT doesn't exist in Islam. We're talking 'bout GUIDANCE. There's no lie in GUIDANCE from God. Muhammad was guided by God to lead human race. And do you think Moses will tell you about what he knows? Now, that's a laugh!
There is NO guidance without the Spirit!!! Num 11:25-30

I don't wanna win. what for???
truth??? want some??? what kind of truth?
Jesaja 2:22, seems you have already lost on Moses.

Now, what do you have to offer in return,
Perhaps another chant?
'Muslims are those who believe in Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (Peace be upon them) and who worship THE ONE GOD.'
After all, chanting and conjuring yourself is the only thing your religion is qualified for.

[Bahia]

quistina255 posted 'i don't wanna win'!

Yes why should she, why should she 'fight' about the truth?
Why should her truth be more than your'e truth? and vice versa. In that lies all the difficulties; people fighting about the truth. (besides land and other things)

It would be nice if everyone can have his or her own truth and living by it in peace.

[Leon]

.....................

[ygalg1]

quistina255 posted 'i don't wanna win'!
Why should her truth be more than your'e truth? and vice versa.
I agree.

[Achihud]

Anyone cup of tea?
Cookie perhaps…

Yes why should she, why should she 'fight' about the truth?
Why should her truth be more than your'e truth? and vice versa. In that lies all the difficulties; people fighting about the truth.
Why come to the Religion section and have a discussion about religion at all? qistina255 decided to do it with so much overconfidence that I picked the passage I resent the most. But at least she stood up for what she believes in! What’s the point of coming to a forum if you are not prepared to put your faith to the test? But if you do, then we can have an honourable fight (without killing each other) and maybe just maybe...learn from it. If not, take a cookie and drink your tea.

Bahia, do you have the same kind of confidence because on the subject of human nature you can’t get more wrong with Max Moszkowicz, it is much better to take advise from Jesus, that is (IF) you regard Him a prophet (SAW); Why do you call me a good rabbi? Nobody is good except only God! Luc 18:19

If there is only one God like all muslims seem to agree on, then there can be also but one truth. Either Max ‘whatever’ is telling the truth or Jesus (SAW) because what they are saying is in direct contradiction!!! So, about post #117, I hope I do not have to spell it all out. qistina255 derived her perception about Moses on Mohammed/Qu’ran and her first defence is already a hopeless case. You can call Moses a prophet until you drop dead. I strongly doubt that you will ever see his face because you never knew anything about him AND his relationship with God. Muslim overconfidence is self-deception but then again, that’s why it is OVERCONFIDENCE!

[Bahia]

It will be to hard for you to fight my religion!!!!

By the way Max Moszkowicz is not my prophet.
He just happens to be the best attorney at law in Holland of the last century.

[serdar]

should we end argument and decide, whichone is enemy, islam or arabs? :D

[qistina255]

should we end argument and decide, whichone is enemy, islam or arabs? :D
well, personally none of them are our enemy,

[Bahia]

Achichud may be the winner.
I don't fight about religions!.
I am a lucky loser and going to sleep!

[serdar]

well, personally none of them are our enemy,
oh yeah, i forgot to add that option.. but people wanna find an enemy here ;) naturally it pleases some people here =)

[Bahia]

Go to the Worldwide cooking recepies thread!
there can be no enemies!

[serdar]

Go to the Worldwide cooking recepies thread!
there can be no enemies!
i bet there will be anti cookers ;)

[Anath]

Arabs are not the enemy. Many Christian Arabs live peaceful lives in the United States. In fact most ethnic Arabs in the United States are Christians fleeing Islam.

Most of these "Christian Arabs" are not actually Arabs. They may be Arabic speakers (although the AAI labels Assyrians Arabs despite the fact that their language is a modern form of Syriac), but i don't see anyone calling the Irish Englishmen.

Maronites, Copts, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs, and so on are not Arabs.

[nuttie]

Maronites, Copts, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs, and so on are not Arabs.I once had a chat with an Israeli Arab Christian (his own self-definition) friend about national traumas. To my surprise, what he cited as his national trauma had nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. It was rather the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in the 15th century. Accordingly, we reached the conclusion that he was an Arabic-speaking Byzantine.
(Anath, correct me on precise facts and terminology. You seem very knowledgeable on the subject).

[Anath]

A Greek Orthodox. Yes, some still actually mourn the fall of Constantinople today. The Arabs called them Roum (as in Romans because they were loyal citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire) and they are still called that. I didn't mention them because many (especially outside Lebanon) call themselves Arabs today. The founder of the Baath party, Michel Aflaq, was a Greek Orthodox from Damascus, you know.

I'd say the national trauma for Maronites in Lebanon (for those who know history at least) was the Arab Muslim invasion some 1400 years ago. Yes, we know how to hold a grudge! ;)

[nuttie]

I'd say the national trauma for Maronites in Lebanon (for those who know history at least) was the Arab Muslim invasion some 1400 years ago. Yes, we know how to hold a grudge! ;)Anath, does this mean that you are a Lebanese Maronite? I am stunned !!! You see, my real name is Anat, sometimes spellt Anath and, although I know the name is ancient Canaanite, I have never met anybody using this name except Israelis. Well well, you live and learn.

[Anath]

It's not my real name. :) I took it from Phoenecian/Canaanite mythology.

[Mobeen]

I know this topic got done a page ago but there werent any muslims/arabs or what ever to defend islams point of view. Now that there is (ME! :cool: ), ask all the questions you want. I will answer with the truth. YES islam is the religion of Peace. But when peace is prevoked you cant just say that the religion will maintain its peace. It doesnt make an sense. You must rebel. Its a common fact. LOOK > Islam is the religion, arabs and muslim ARE THE SAME. Just refer to muslims becuase you are stating everyone under one umbrella. If you say Islam than you are becoming racist and attacking the religion. You shouldent do that! The only reason the muslims and Islam are given a bad name is becuase of actions of muslims we see today. The only reason the palestinians use martyr (suicide) bombing to attack is becuase THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. THE ISRAELIS HAVE MADE CHECKPOINTS AND BARRIERS SO THEY CANT BE PENETRATED BY GUNS USED BY PALESTINIANS. THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION. LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. LOOK AT IRAQ, WHY DID THE MUJAHIDEENS USE AK'S AND OTHER GUNS TO ATTACK THE US. WHY NOT USE 'SUICIDE BOMBS'?THIS IS BECAUSE THEIR LAND WAS AND NOT YET OCCUPIED SO THEY WERE FREE TO MOVE AROUND AND PLAN. BUT WHEN THE US SOLDIERS OCCUPIED THEIR LAND "THEY WERE FORCED TO USE SUICIDE BOMBS."

I know that you guys know that what is happening in the Palestinian/Israel state is wrong.... :(

[KettleWhistle]

Islam is the religion, arabs and muslim ARE THE SAME.
No, not really, since there are Christian Arabs and non-Arabic Muslims.

If you say Islam than you are becoming racist and attacking the religion.
Islam is not a race, and discussing, and even harshly, and even unfairly, criticising a religion is not racism.
The only reason the muslims and Islam are given a bad name is becuase of actions of muslims we see today.
Duh!

The only reason the palestinians use martyr (suicide) bombing to attack is becuase THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. THE ISRAELIS HAVE MADE CHECKPOINTS AND BARRIERS SO THEY CANT BE PENETRATED BY GUNS USED BY PALESTINIANS.
Ok, I get it now. So they are forced to kill other people this way because can't kill them any other way...

THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION. LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. LOOK AT IRAQ, WHY DID THE MUJAHIDEENS USE AK'S AND OTHER GUNS TO ATTACK THE US. WHY NOT USE 'SUICIDE BOMBS'?
Ok, let's look at Iraq. Why do the "mujahideens" need to use AKs or suicide bombings in the first place? Why can't they put their efforts into rebuilding the country, helping to stabilize it, or helping to develop the economy? You known, the peaceful things...

Religion of peace, you say? Not the way you practice it.

[Mobeen]

No, not really, since there are Christian Arabs and non-Arabic Muslims.

[IN MIDDLE EAST THERE ARE OR SHOULD BE MUSLIMS ONLY.. THATS WHERE THE PROBLEM BEGAN. BIN LADEN AND AL QUEDA STARTED ACTING UP BECAUSE THERE WERE FOREINERS IN HOLY LANDS AND I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THEM...Out of all of Israels population, how many consist of Christians, muslims and other religions?]

[Your 2nd quote is correct.]

[Duh! i shoulda known :rolleyes:]


Ok, I get it now. So they are forced to kill other people this way because (forgot> they) can't kill them any other way...

[LISTEN MAN. 100 palestinians are killed for 0 isareali citizens EVERYDAY. How would you feel if your brother or sister was killed infront of you for no aparent reason. Just becuase he/She took one step on the Israeli land to get his bouncing ball? It would infuriate me and i would try to get back at the enemy any way possible. Yes, ever since the Israelis started killing Palestinians for no apparent reason(for about 30 or so years now) suicide bombing is the only thing that works. The palestinians want to avenge every single live that was taken by the Israelis.]

Ok, let's look at Iraq. Why do the "mujahideens" need to use AKs or suicide bombings in the first place? Why can't they put their efforts into rebuilding the country, helping to stabilize it, or helping to develop the economy? You known, the peaceful things...

Religion of peace, you say? Not the way you practice it.

If someone has invaded your country, raped your women and made fun of your people and religion. Would you lend a helping hand to them to make THEIR type of govenment IN YOUR country. Common Sense. The answer is no. I agree with the US to take down suddam but that should have been it. The sole reason for the US invasion of Iraq was to Find and destroy WoMD. What they find. NOTHING. Iraq was making no such things. Why will you force your own style of government on people that are so different from you and dont really want your help. The US is very arrogent. The want the world to become like them and follow and do everything they do. Thats not possible. The only way iraqis will start to make/stabalize their government is when no Foreign entiny like the US and UK is in their country.

Islam is the Religion of peace, but SOOO many things have happened and are still happening that are showing muslims that they have to start "jihad"(war)
to achieve peace.

The only way you will see the fighting STOP IS .
THE US SOLDIERS/PERSONALS LEAVE ALL OF THE MIDDLE EAST ALONE.
AND
this is important too but the first one is more important
GIVE PALESTINIANS ALL OF THERE LAND, IF NOT ALL THEAN ATLEAST A FAIR AMOUNT. DONT BE GREEDY ISRAEL!!

[serdar]

No, not really, since there are Christian Arabs and non-Arabic Muslims.

[IN MIDDLE EAST THERE ARE OR SHOULD BE MUSLIMS ONLY.. THATS WHERE THE PROBLEM BEGAN. BIN LADEN AND AL QUEDA STARTED ACTING UP BECAUSE THERE WERE FOREINERS IN HOLY LANDS AND I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THEM...Out of all of Israels population, how many consist of Christians, muslims and other religions?]

[Your 2nd quote is correct.]

[Duh! i shoulda known :rolleyes:]


Ok, I get it now. So they are forced to kill other people this way because (forgot> they) can't kill them any other way...

[LISTEN MAN. 100 palestinians are killed for 0 isareali citizens EVERYDAY. How would you feel if your brother or sister was killed infront of you for no aparent reason. Just becuase he/She took one step on the Israeli land to get his bouncing ball? It would infuriate me and i would try to get back at the enemy any way possible. Yes, ever since the Israelis started killing Palestinians for no apparent reason(for about 30 or so years now) suicide bombing is the only thing that works. The palestinians want to avenge every single live that was taken by the Israelis.]

Ok, let's look at Iraq. Why do the "mujahideens" need to use AKs or suicide bombings in the first place? Why can't they put their efforts into rebuilding the country, helping to stabilize it, or helping to develop the economy? You known, the peaceful things...

Religion of peace, you say? Not the way you practice it.

If someone has invaded your country, raped your women and made fun of your people and religion. Would you lend a helping hand to them to make THEIR type of govenment IN YOUR country. Common Sense. The answer is no. I agree with the US to take down suddam but that should have been it. The sole reason for the US invasion of Iraq was to Find and destroy WoMD. What they find. NOTHING. Iraq was making no such things. Why will you force your own style of government on people that are so different from you and dont really want your help. The US is very arrogent. The want the world to become like them and follow and do everything they do. Thats not possible. The only way iraqis will start to make/stabalize their government is when no Foreign entiny like the US and UK is in their country.

Islam is the Religion of peace, but SOOO many things have happened and are still happening that are showing muslims that they have to start "jihad"(war)
to achieve peace.

The only way you will see the fighting STOP IS .
THE US SOLDIERS/PERSONALS LEAVE ALL OF THE MIDDLE EAST ALONE.
AND
this is important too but the first one is more important
GIVE PALESTINIANS ALL OF THERE LAND, IF NOT ALL THEAN ATLEAST A FAIR AMOUNT. DONT BE GREEDY ISRAEL!!


yeah usa shall leave iraq and stop supporting israel, you will be happy, then your friends gonna go to blow disco, clubs, cafe, or some bus right? or osama will send few guerillas to few mor buildings this time in los angeles... or maybe attacks against disney land. :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

Once again, I can appreciate your increasingly addled hysteria yet there is nothing to back it up and worse you're for the most part advocating genocide if you think it furthers your own xenophobic racist goals. What's it like to be like that?

[Mobeen]

Serder i dont think you watch the news buddy because if you did then you would know that Osama clearly stated that if the US left Middle East lands than no action would be taken. Tell me how many attacks did Osama hatch before the US sent in military personals and business men and women to get money and own oil companies so they could get rich and start to take over ALL the oil facilities? NONE! Why the hell would "my friends" blow up anything if there land was given back to them and the holy lands were kept pure? :confused: You tell me. The fact is that Israel and America really dont belong in the Middle East. I dont mean to be rude by saying this. But people of Middle East and the West dont get along becuase of events that have taken place. Kinda Corney joke at the end :( lol...

Mediocrates
I am sorry if you think what i am saying supports genocide. Israel HAS HAD COUNTLESS GENOCIDES! but no one seems to care becuase they know that if they speak against Israel they will get slammed by the US. But now it really doesnt matter because Israel a tiny DOT ON THE WORLD MAP owns more weapons and artillary than anyone else. My friend these arent xenophobic things. If you think of this this way than well... too bad. Its sad you dont understand what i am trying to say.
The fact is that the US is a pawn for Israel and in the game of chess the pawns are sacrified as will the US. I love America i have lived here my whole life but i know that not all americans are like that in the congress which is ruled by 85% of jews. Who you think they will support? Israel there own country and people or us American's? Diverse people and religions? In my honest opinion i dont think they care a dam about American Citizens. All and everything this Government does is for Israel. :eek:

[KettleWhistle]

Yep, you're right, it's all a big conspiracy that warrants blowing people up instead of building one's country, organizing terrorism in countries that want nothing to do with you and just want to be left alone and in peace (Israel), and other such activities.

[MGB8]

80-85% of Israelis are Jewish. The rest of Muslim, Christian, or some other group. That's more than there are Jews in any Muslim country.

The rest of the stuff in your posts is either wrong, a lie, or just plain stupid. Israel has not commited a single genocide, you I guess don't know what the word means. Nor have the Pal Arabs had there land stolen from them, although this is more complicated in that you could make an argument for both Arab and JEWISH refugees from the Arab-Israeli conflict having had land "stolen" by the state - that they had title to the land but once they left/fled/were expelled the state confiscated the land. The Jewish losses here far outweigh the Arab losses in terms of amount.

[MGB8]

In response to the post above, I guess he/she would agree that all Muslims and Arabs should GET OUT of the US and Europe. So go, get out. Apply your standards to yourself. And since Israel was in the time of the Prophet Jewish lands - all the Muslims and Arabs should leave there, too. GET THE F OUT.

[serdar]

In response to the post above, I guess he/she would agree that all Muslims and Arabs should GET OUT of the US and Europe. So go, get out. Apply your standards to yourself. And since Israel was in the time of the Prophet Jewish lands - all the Muslims and Arabs should leave there, too. GET THE F OUT.
man yeah! thats tru!!!
this is my favorite post!!! ;)
mid east was owned by Jews, then shared with Christians... history shows the owner of the mid east. its unrealistic to say
-get out of mid east-
i just laugh with my a.¤.s :D

[KettleWhistle]

BTW, Israel is in the Near East, not the Middle East, so the Jihadists who seek a kaffir-free Middle East should have no problem with it.

[serdar]

BTW, Israel is in the Near East, not the Middle East, so the Jihadists who seek a kaffir-free Middle East should have no problem with it.
its aight, my mistake.

i wanna hit on a point!
today its interesting to say *get out of blahblah lands* or *this land doesnt belongs to you*

imaine, if we start a discussion like it, think the result;

Israel, get out of Near east.
Arabs, get out of middle east,
USA, get out of america because originally owned by red skins
Australians, get out of there, coz belongs to aborigins
China, get out of there, coz owned by blahblah ethnics
Russia, get out of there, you occupied enouh places already
Turkey, get out there, coz owned by kurds or armenians (even kurds and armenians fighting about it)
England, get out of south and most of africa, belongs to africa,
France, get out of africa and occupations.

blahblah, think about that, how would be weird :D

[Mobeen]

WOW you guys respond mad quick...

MBG8
I 100% agree with you. I wish that all muslims left America and Europe. That would be the greatest thing that EVER HAPPENED. I know that you already know that Muslims are in the number 2 percentile in America. 1 is the jews...Omg you cant go all the way back. Thats just plain idiotic. You cannot do that. Like Serder stated
Israel, get out of Near east.
Arabs, get out of middle east,
USA, get out of america because originally owned by red skins
Australians, get out of there, coz belongs to aborigins
China, get out of there, coz owned by blahblah ethnics
Russia, get out of there, you occupied enouh places already
Turkey, get out there, coz owned by kurds or armenians (even kurds and armenians fighting about it)
England, get out of south and most of africa, belongs to africa,
France, get out of africa and occupations.
This is all too complicated. Thats just messing up history. I really cant discuss all this cause i got some hardware mods i gotta get too. When i will be free i will go in detail...

The jews(Israel) are people that want sorry felt for them. They want pity from everyone else so they can be left in freedom. How many sactions does Israel have? ok fine. it has some on its issues with palestine BUT IT STILL DOESNT FOLLOW THEM. What does the UN do about this? of course absolutely nothing becuase guess where the UN is in America in NY where i live and i even went there and saw it. And New York the heart of America is ruled by Jews..

By the way what do you guys think of Adolph Hitler?

[Anath]

In my opinion:

If the current generation of Israeli jews born in Israel are occupiers (in Israel proper, that is) then Bosnian and Albanian Muslims are occupiers.

[KettleWhistle]

By the way what do you guys think of Adolph Hitler?

I think, well know for a fact, actually, that he had most of the same ideas you do.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=146932&postcount=659

[Mobeen]

You know thats a good complement by you kettle thanks!
and on Mediocrates thread no comment What can i say? Good job :confused:

[MGB8]

Sarcasm is sometimes lost in writing.

[NiekNL]

By the way what do you guys think of Adolph Hitler?

I wouldn't consider you more insane, but you are really coming close to him!

[Mediocrates]

By the way what do you guys think of Adolph Hitler?


He was a great teacher for the modern arab state.

[MGB8]

As to the title of this thread, I just want to state, for the record, that neither "Arabs" nor "Muslims" are the enemy. King Feisal - a Hashemite - an Arab and a Muslim, would have granted the Jews the land from the River to the Sea as a state of their own. Iran, before the days of the Ayatollas, was an Israeli partner, if not outright ally. Turkey has strong ties to Israel, as well.

The problem is with certain, apparently very large, subsets of those groups. They have adopted an Imperialist vision, Jihadism - either in its secular, Pan-Arabist form, or in the form of Islamic fundamentalism. Both are interelated, anyways - to say that religion had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein, etc., is to be ignorant of reality. Just as I am very Jewish without being very observant.

[Mobeen]

You know what i cant wait for?
i cant wait till Israel gets what it deserves. There is SOO much conspericy that i dont trust anything i hear at all. Espicially from the news like the Fox channel. You might not see it right now but this IS a holy war. Between Jews+Christians+Muslims and at the point The jews are ahead by a mile. Its sad to see these people use others by bribing them money. It works to and thats even sadder...

[Reffo]

You know what i cant wait for?
i cant wait till Israel gets what it deserves. There is SOO much conspericy that i dont trust anything i hear at all. Espicially from the news like the Fox channel. You might not see it right now but this IS a holy war. Between Jews+Christians+Muslims and at the point The jews are ahead by a mile. Its sad to see these people use others by bribing them money. It works to and thats even sadder...Mobeen has it ever occurred to you that the Arabs are more at fault for this war than the Jews ? Has it occurred to you that even though the Israelis/Jews are causing suffering to Palestinians, they are just reacting to what the Palestinians have been doing to them and what they are still doing ? Your talk of holy war is just crazy, that's exactly what the problems are today. But if you and your people want to continue down this line instead of seriously discussing a just peace in which each side recognizes past wrongs and REALLY renounce violence (instead of just pretending to), if instead, you prefer a crazy notion like HOLY WAR, you will see that it WILL NOT bring you happiness EVER. The best thing that you can hope for is that all of humanity will have a catastrophy BUT it may just be possible that you WILL NOT EVEN GET THAT SATISFACTION (beats me what would be your satisfaction in it though :confused: ). It's just possible that such attitude and behaviour will bring a catastrophy to YOUR PEOPLE ONLY, and believe me I and many Jews like me don't wish that on your people.

[Achihud]

People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
You know what i cant wait for?
i cant wait till Israel gets what it deserves. There is SOO much conspericy...
Now you’re punching
And you’re kicking
And you’re shouting at (me)
And I’m relying on your common decency
The jews are ahead by a mile. Its sad to see these people use others by bribing them money. It works to and thats even sadder...
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
Help me understand
Help me understand

About the conspiracy and bribing: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7574&highlight=army+muhammed


http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/depeche-mode/39333.html

[andak01]

Well yes, there is a war on terrorism. And many of the troops fighting against terrorism are Muslims. In fact, add up the Pakistani army and the Saudi security forces and the thousands of Arab speaking intelligence workers and you would easily find that more Muslims are paid professionals fighting against terrorist than there are terrorists. Every time you hear about 50 Iraqis killed in front of a police station, like as not they were Muslim victims of this war thwarted in an attempt to fight for democracy.

[Reffo]

Mobeen

Here are some interesting statistics for you:

There are 21 Arab countries but only one Israel
The combined territories of all the Arab countries are 650 times the size of Israel (Israel = 20,770 sq Km, Total Arab lands = 13,486,281 sq Km)
Arab countries occupy all of North Africa and over 99% of the Middle East
Some Jews continuously lived in what is now the land of Israel for over 3000 years. Arabs settled there only about 600 years ago.
As many Jewish refugees fled Arab countries as Palestinian refugees fled Palestine.
The UN partitioned Palestine into two parts, one for Jews and one for Arabs, the Jews accepted this the Arabs did not and they started a war of annihilation against the Jews in 1948.

So you see Mobeen? The Jews have been fighting for their survival and the Arabs bear the primary responsibility for the suffering of both peoples although it is probably true that in this 100 year old war, the Jews too probably made some mistakes.

So, don't you see why this stupidity has to stop sometime? Before both people reach the point of no return and do things to each other that will never be un-done? One thing the Arabs need to understand: Much as the Arabs would like to dream of this but the Jews will never again allow themselves to be slaughtered like sheep. One Holocaust was enough, so the only possibilities are that either there will be peace and BOTH people win, or BOTH people will lose because the war will continue, OR BOTH people will lose by killing each other off (6 million Jews - again, for 400 million Arabs). So, Mobeen, do you still think that a holy war would be good? If you do, I will tell you why you want it and I will be blunt: You only want it for one and only one reason and it's called PRIDE and I tell you that's a sin according to both our religions. Both Judaism and Islam teach that pride is NOT GOOD, it is a sin. Both religions teach humility. Instead of a HOLY WAR, I would rather have a HOLY PEACE, it's better for both people!

[Mediocrates]

Islam is not the enemy any more than any other concept is a thing. I saw Cinderella Man recently and in one scene the protagonist gets a lecture from a part time anarchist about 'fighting back' (it's the Great Depression). The protagonist says "Fight back? Against what? Bad luck? Drought? Greed?"


This is the enemy:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3103391,00.html

[Mobeen]

Mobeen has it ever occurred to you that the Arabs are more at fault for this war than the Jews ? Has it occurred to you that even though the Israelis/Jews are causing suffering to Palestinians, they are just reacting to what the Palestinians have been doing to them and what they are still doing ? Your talk of holy war is just crazy, that's exactly what the problems are today. But if you and your people want to continue down this line instead of seriously discussing a just peace in which each side recognizes past wrongs and REALLY renounce violence (instead of just pretending to), if instead, you prefer a crazy notion like HOLY WAR, you will see that it WILL NOT bring you happiness EVER. The best thing that you can hope for is that all of humanity will have a catastrophy BUT it may just be possible that you WILL NOT EVEN GET THAT SATISFACTION (beats me what would be your satisfaction in it though ). It's just possible that such attitude and behaviour will bring a catastrophy to YOUR PEOPLE ONLY, and believe me I and many Jews like me don't wish that on your people.

Ok Reffo. How are the arabs at fault here? I personally dont care who took the land 3000 years ago or 800 years ago. The first people to live there werent the jews. In fact we cant even go to back then, it tooo far back..The jews cause ALOT of unneeded suffering. You know what they are aiming for? They want to avenge there holocaust victims. Talk about peace. I feel soo bad for the palestinians because they have heard this phrase for SOO many times by the Israelis but IT NEVER HAPPENED. I think we all know that war will not bring happiness. But in my opinion its TOO down the line for peace so war is needed. So many people have lost their lives and for every single life (either jewish or muslim) someone wants to get revenge on the other. You know.. i also know that many jews dont want to do whats happening but my friend you could tell me that if you were in the Israeli parliment or if you were the president.. YOUR NOT so it doesnt help becuase people there want this. At one point they hope to conquer all of palestian and rule the palestinians or kill them.. Thats the truth and you know it! Why is Israel STILL making its settlements on palestinian lands when i thought THEY AGREED TO HAVE THEIR OWN SPACE AND NOT GET ANY OF THE PALESTINIANS? This is all a fruad. When Israel got the power, heck when everyone gets the power (look at suddam) they do things that are not good for their people and their country and become very greedy.

Achihud, i understood alittle bit of what you were saying. :confused:
I will help you understand

Because they jews/Israel are in a position to do what they are doing. No one can stand up to them becuase they know that they will get taken over by false accusations such as the ones posed by the US to invade Iraq.

About the conspiracy and bribing: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sh...t=army+muhammed
So? whats bad about defending your country? I dont care if they had a thousand armies..

Andak your Absolutely RIGHT!
Now as you can see, More MUSLIMS are fighting THEIR OWN PEOPLE than the coalition or whatever other forces that are there.. Thats the plan man. you see? Turn muslims against muslims and it is working Beautifully!
Every time you hear about 50 Iraqis killed in front of a police station, like as not they were Muslim victims of this war thwarted in an attempt to fight for democracy.
No my friend, they are fighting for their country. They dont know what the hel* democracy is and they dont really care. They are working for their children and their family so they can have something to eat at night. It has come to that. Now the muslims that are attacking their OWN PEOPLE and not any coalition targets is becuase there brains have been manipulated. Anyone working with the coalition shall be killed is whats on their mind. Be their own people or foreigners. Now istead of them becoming martyr's their becoming sinners. (WHICH WAS THE PLAN ALL ALONG)

Reffo to your second post:

All the statistics you mentioned are true, i already said this but
The UN partitioned Palestine into two parts, one for Jews and one for Arabs, the Jews accepted this the Arabs did not and they started a war of annihilation against the Jews in 1948.
YES THE UN DID AND YES THE ARABS STARTED A WAR TO ANNIHILATE THE JEWS AND YES THEY LOST THREE TIMES THANKS TO US/UK HELP. SO THE WAR CONTINUES... Look reffo tell me why the Israelis have started to take palestinian land little by little each year. Making their settlements on palestinian land and if some one gets a little close they get sprayed with m4 assualt riffles? WHY WHY>? becuase Israel is a power and is getting greedy. It wants to conquer and get more land. This is the true case. REFFO THE WORLD DOES NOT RUN SOO PEACEFULLY YOU MUST REALIZE THAT.
The point of no return has been reached my friend like i responded to your first post response, Everyone wants to avenge someones live. Thats the case. Yes too much pride is a sin. But look honour is not. If your defending your religion, country, and fighting in the name of Allah then its considered sane. Look man as much as i would want a peaceful world I really dont think it will happen.
Some things that might help Israel
1. Remove all of your settlements on palestinian lands.
2. Take away All the stupid checkpoints and barriers dividing Israel and Palestian. I better say this too becuase i know some morron is gonna say it. No there wont be any suicide bombs becuase the palestinians got what they want.
3. THERE MUST BE TRUST AND SO FAR ISRAEL HAS NONE and will have none.

Look at this site, go to the links, browse. Then take a good look at it and then look at your self jews and then tell me that whats going on is good.

http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2005/march/war_2005_march_images_2.html[/URL] e2005/march/war_2005_march_images_2.html

look at this. I though that the jews in Israel were friends with the christians than whats this?

This proves my point look a all the links then talk to me what israel is doing is not wrong. The jews wont learn until the holocaust will happen to them again. The images on these pages made me cry. It is INHUMANE you fools look at your government of israel and what they are doing.

[Mediocrates]

Why aren't they fighting for their country in Jordan? Or don't they sell rockets and guns there? 2/3rds of all Palestinians live in Jordan. Why aren't they fighting to break their brethren's yoke of oppression from their Syrian uberlords? There are 'refugee camps' there too? Why is that?

Oh never mind, you won't answer, your kind never does.

[Mobeen]

Mediocrates or whatthehell ever,
your sooo dumb i have said this too you soo many times. THEY WOULD IF THEY COULD. The USA have soldiers everywhere from egypt to pakistan. If something happens anywhere they will be there in a sec. My kind will answer soemday and it will answer really good. By the way did you go to the website i posted before?
Never mind why did i ask anyway, your kind never wants to see the truth.

[Mediocrates]

THEY WOULD IF THEY COULD.

So the PLO should fight Jordan, Syria too? Both of them are on paper far weaker than Israel, why would they not fight their dreaded Arab uberlords first? Why is that?


The USA have soldiers everywhere from egypt to pakistan. If something happens anywhere they will be there in a sec.

Hmm, an interesting thesis. If the PLO attacks (again as in 1970) Jordan, the US army will rush in (becasue they're not busy doing anything else right now) and save Jordan, or it will rush in and save Syria too.

Fascinating, tell me more.

My kind will answer soemday and it will answer really good.

Whatever does that mean? A secret threat? Something I should be worried about? Trust me, when your children's children are blowing themselves up, it will be on Israeli nuclear powered hovercraft.


By the way did you go to the website i posted before?
Never mind why did i ask anyway, your kind never wants to see the truth.

Yeah I think so, I'd have to check again. Please repost it if you may. Or not, I wouldn't want to interrupt the voices in your head.

[Mediocrates]

You know thats a good complement by you kettle thanks!
and on Mediocrates thread no comment What can i say? Good job :confused:


Well a rational person not living in the 12th century would. Give it a whirl, try it on. You can always shop for more detcord if you don't like it.

[Mediocrates]

I went back in this thread, couldn't find the website you spoke about, what was it again?

[Mobeen]

Hmm, an interesting thesis. If the PLO attacks (again as in 1970) Jordan, the US army will rush in (becasue they're not busy doing anything else right now) and save Jordan, or it will rush in and save Syria too.

Fascinating, tell me more.

Ur dumb.. I was saying that the us military will only help Israel if it under threat. Learn how to read it helps! The US doesnt care less for all the muslim nations they are only concerned with their oil. They want muslims to fight eachother thats there main goal.

Whatever does that mean? A secret threat? Something I should be worried about? Trust me, when your children's children are blowing themselves up, it will be on Israeli nuclear powered hovercraft.

Oh ok. So let me see. You think i am wrong saying that your children's children might see a frying oven again?

http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2004/may/war_2004_may_images_4.html

the link, the truths only a click away.. but you wont do that will you? No, You dont want to see reality as it is.

ah no!

[Mediocrates]

Ur dumb.. I was saying that the us military will only help Israel if it under threat. Learn how to read it helps! The US doesnt care less for all the muslim nations they are only concerned with their oil. They want muslims to fight eachother thats there main goal.

The US sends billions of dollars in military equipment to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. It has forward bases in the east Jordan desert now and it's opened up ties with Libya again. Does that count? On the other hand in 1973 when Israel was attacked it was not until the third day of battle that Henry Kissinger told the American President Nixon to send 3 (three) AC-130 cargo planes to Israel to help out. When asked by Nixon how many we had, he was told "23". So the order went out, over the objection of the US state department to send the other 20 cargo planes. 20 cargo planes is about one quarter of what we sent to Indonesia (a muslim country) after the tsunami, for example.



Oh ok. So let me see. You think i am wrong saying that your children's children might see a frying oven again?

Unlikely though I'm sure if you had your way it would come to pass.

[Mobeen]

Yo i cant go into detail right now.. i gag pray namaaz(juma)

Unlikely though I'm sure if you had your way it would come to pass.

yea,, RAIGHT.


go to the website ! go i dare you to find me some site that shows me jews dieing like this, being occupied and brutally beaten> Show me and oh yea it has to be IN THIS ERA not from ww2 we already know what happened.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2004/may/war_2004_may_images_4.html

the link, the truths only a click away.. but you wont do that will you? No, You dont want to see reality as it is.

ah no!


Oh sure I've seen that. So? A bunch of photos out of context with captions for each. And? I could have filmed some of them near my house or in Iraq or China or who knows where. Basically it's just agitprop. Next?

[Mobeen]

Oh sure I've seen that. So? A bunch of photos out of context with captions for each. And? I could have filmed some of them near my house or in Iraq or China or who knows where. Basically it's just agitprop. Next?

<This is what a typical jewish person would say. You cant get it in your brain of what your people are doing. Maybe your conscience doesnt want to realize it .. its ok.

How could you film this near your house or in china are you crazy. look at their skin look at their faces. What do you see. You see my people. Muslims getting treated badly and killed inhumane ways. Notice i left out Iraq why? beucase i know this stuff happens there? The ABU GHARAB SCANDAL what was that ? you can take those pictures in front of your house? wow i dident know that..No next first get a good enough answer for the following site.. Oh wait you cant BECAUSE ITS THE TRUTH!

also i must add the soldiers are israeli. Yea and you will only find Israeli soldiers in Israel and occupied Palestian. What?

[defari]

Damn Mobeen you're dumb. And learn some English you Hitler. I always said that if a person can't spell correctly or form a gramatically correct sentence he shouldn't be discussing a big thing like politics. You lack both. How old are you? Did you even go to school?

Mediocrates, is right in everything he says. And I'm not Jewish nor Israeli. I live in Sweden and 98% of my family are Muslims. Including my father. Just in case you don't call me biased. I see the truth unlike you. Until Arabs stop acting like savages and homosapiens there will never be peace. Someone should introduce the word civilization to them.

[Mediocrates]

How could you film this near your house or in china are you crazy. look at their skin look at their faces. What do you see. You see my people. Muslims getting treated badly and killed inhumane ways.

I see some people of no particular descriptor living under poor conditions for whatever reasons. Some of the uniforms appear to be IDF some do not. I'll never forget the 'famous' picture that started it all. A uniformed IDF trooper standing over a swarthy civilian, blood running down his face, the soldier screaming, a truncheon in his hand. Here is how indymedia captioned it: A IDF thug beating a poor Palestinian protestor. Here is what it turned out to be: A IDF trooper calling for an ambulance after an American was hit in the head with a rock thrown by a Palestinian.


Notice i left out Iraq why? /quote]

Because you couldn't find any pictures of Iraqi plastic shredders I imagine.


[quote]you can take those pictures in front of your house?

I bet you have prisons in your country too. I imagine they are none too savory. In either case that's not the issue.


also i must add the soldiers are israeli. Yea and you will only find Israeli soldiers in Israel and occupied Palestian. What?

And 50,000 Palestinian 'police' who also wear uniforms though they tend toward mono-green for some odd reason. Bad camo pattern for dry brush and arroyo and savannah.
http://www.israellycool.com/PLO%20Arabs%20in%20training.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1740000/images/_1742786_gaza_police_ap300.jpg
http://bokertov.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/pal_security_forces_1.jpg

Black urban
http://www.camera.org/images_user/epa.Hebron.jpg

http://www.tribalmessenger.org/t-middle-east/images/israel-palestine/Palestinian-police-recruit.jpg
http://www.detnews.com/pix/2000/12/25/worldbethlehem4.jpg

[Mobeen]

Damn Mobeen you're dumb. And learn some English you Hitler. I always said that if a person can't spell correctly or form a gramatically correct sentence he shouldn't be discussing a big thing like politics. You lack both. How old are you? Did you even go to school?

Mediocrates, is right in everything he says. And I'm not Jewish nor Israeli. I live in Sweden and 98% of my family are Muslims. Including my father. Just in case you don't call me biased. I see the truth unlike you. Until Arabs stop acting like savages and homosapiens there will never be peace. Someone should introduce the word civilization to them.

You know what you are defari? your pathetic. Its not my fault that anyone who speaks bad of jews and israel AUTOMATICALLY becomes hitler. Thats sad but if thats what it is then i am hitler. By the way what is your mother? Accually dont tell me, i dont want to know. Go ask your father and your other 98% of your muslim relatives what they think of Israel. Then maybe your eyes will open. You think the jews want peace maybe you should go on the link i showed mediocrates. That will explain to you everything. No there not just pictures with captions learn to read for gods sake! You see the Jews are casting their own version of the holocaust on the muslims. The jews are just greedy and want more money and more land. Thats the WHOLE point. Although muslims might have some fault, most of it was becuase they were provoked to the point. You know man i am getting sick of this talking. You should go to palestian and see what happens everyday. Be in there shoes and than talk this Sh*& with me.


I see some people of no particular descriptor living under poor conditions for whatever reasons.

WHATEVER REASON wow your dumb. What do you think ? no reason, its because the jews have made their lives miserable and poor.

A uniformed IDF trooper standing over a swarthy civilian, blood running down his face, the soldier screaming, a truncheon in his hand. Here is how indymedia captioned it: A IDF thug beating a poor Palestinian protestor. Here is what it turned out to be: A IDF trooper calling for an ambulance after an American was hit in the head with a rock thrown by a Palestinian.

Nice. That explains one picture. What about the thousands more? yeah explain them too.

your not funny. Please dont joke it only makes you look stupider.

Theres a different between what the soldiers wear.

Mediocrates or anyone. YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW ME A SITE THAT SHOWS ME PALESTINIANS BEATING, KILLING, ABUSING JEWS? WHY? BECUASE IT NEVER HAPPENS. I KNOW THERE WERE SOME MARTYR BOMBINGS WHICH CLAIMED ABOUT A 1000 JEWISH LIVES ALTOGETHER. PROVE ME WRONG!? SHOW ME THE PICTURES OF PALESTINIANS ABUSING JEWS IN THIS ERA IN PALESTIAN/ISRAEL. I would be greatful/

[Mediocrates]

here's 110

http://images.google.com/images?q=egged%20bus%20bombing&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-16,GGLD:en&sa=N&tab=wi

[Mobeen]

Lol wow are those ALL OF THE VICTIMS.. not to be mocking but.. you would need like a 100 or more google image pages for the palestinian victims but thats not the point. Mediocrate i specifically stated to show me a site with jews on it being BEATEN, ABUSED, KILLED in inhumane ways by the palestinians. I dident say show me jews that were blown up by the palestinians. I dont know you will find one site and now hopefully you will understand why because the jews are the occupiers of palestian. I dont know why the jews want everyone to feel so sorry for them even though the holocaust is long gone. The jews arent the victims now its the muslims. The jews are enjoying their power right now as anyone would.

The challenge is still on. I dare anyone on this forum thats jewish to show me a site where palestinians are beating, abusing, and killing jews in inhumane ways. If you cannot find such a thing than hopefully you will know the truth( i really dont thing though)

[savvy]

The challenge is still on. I dare anyone on this forum thats jewish to show me a site where palestinians are beating, abusing, and killing jews in inhumane ways. If you cannot find such a thing than hopefully you will know the truth( i really dont thing though)


Okay, watch these clips, but I have to warn you, they r graphic and not for the faint-hearted.

Mother's sacrifice children for terrorismhttp://inhonor.net/videos/_54200fl_mother-son.php

Palestinian songs of hatred.http://inhonor.net/videos/_54100_praisesuicidebomber.php

[savvy]

The challenge is still on. I dare anyone on this forum thats jewish to show me a site where palestinians are beating, abusing, and killing jews in inhumane ways. If you cannot find such a thing than hopefully you will know the truth( i really dont thing though)


Okay, watch these clips, but I have to warn you, they r graphic and not for the faint-hearted.

Mother's sacrifice children for terrorismhttp://inhonor.net/videos/_54200fl_mother-son.php (http://)

Peace education in Palestine or Hitler's Youthhttp://inhonor.net/videos/vid-kids_pals.htm (http://)

Palestinian songs of hatred.http://inhonor.net/videos/_54100_praisesuicidebomber.php (http://)

Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani: "Fight the Jews and Vanquish Them so as to Hasten the Coming of the Hidden Imam"

The official Iranian news agency Fars, which is close to the conservative circles in Iran, recently published a statement by Ayatollah Hossein Nouri-Hamedani, one of the Iranian regime's leading religious authorities, in which he advocates fighting the Jews in order to prepare the ground and to hasten the advent of the Hidden Imam, the Messiah according to Shiite belief.
It should be noted that the Fars news agency took the report off its web site several hours after its publication, and other Iranian media outlets close to the conservatives refrained from citing it.

The following is the text of Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani's censored statements, which appeared in identical language on two internet sites: Peykeiran, a site close to the anti-regime communist left; and Asylum-Norway, an internet site belonging to an organization that supports Iranian refugees in Norway: [1]

Prior to the Advent of the Hidden Imam, Arrogance and Colonialism Rule the World

"Fars news agency: Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani, discussing [Shi'ite] religious texts, said: 'One should fight the Jews and vanquish them so that the conditions for the advent of the Hidden Imam be met.' According to the Fars news agency's report, Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani met with members of the Mahdaviyat Studies Institute. [2] He praised the institute's work and demanded that the religious seminaries in Qom also do more to research religious texts and hadith concerning the Hidden Imam...

"Nouri-Hamedani said that the texts concerning the end of days are rife with allusions and hidden meanings. He asked the researchers to devote their efforts to elucidating these texts. He noted: 'In the texts it is told that the Hidden Imam will remove the yoke of humiliation from mankind's neck. Therefore it is clear that prior to the advent of the Hidden Imam, Arrogance [a common epithet for Western powers, especially the U.S.A.] and colonialism rule the world.'

The Jews Have Hoarded All the Wealth in One Place, and All the World are Their Slaves

"According to this religious authority, 'at present the Jews' policies threaten us. One should explain in the clearest terms the danger the Jews pose to the [Iranian] people and to the Muslims. Ever since Islam's appearance, the group that expressed fierce opposition to Islam – and still acts in this fashion – were the Jews. They were involved in the Khaybar, Uhud, and Ahzab wars.' [3] He added: 'Already from the beginning the Jews wanted to hoard the world's goods in [their] greed and voracity. They always worked in important professions and now they have hoarded all of the wealth in one place. And all of the world, especially America and Europe, are their slaves.'"

Crazy Ideas Such as Secularism, Liberalism, and Humanism are Part of Our Enemies' Plans to Sow Disunity

In another statement from last year, Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani, on the occasion of his visit to the cities of Khoramshahr and Shalamche, said: "World Arrogance [i.e., the U.S. and the Western powers] is creating a trinity of evil: heresy, divisiveness, and Zionism, in order to weaken the [Iranian] people's spirit and to create division and disagreement with respect to our regime. [Therefore] all of the senior officials and the public must be on their guard more than ever…

"The spreading of prostitution and evil things, the creation of a mentality of inferiority, and the propagation of crazy ideas such as secularism, liberalism, and humanism are [all] part of our enemies' plans to sow disunity in [our] society...

"The revelation of the culture of Jihad and martyrdom in the country [Iran] struck world Arrogance [i.e., the U.S. and the Western powers] with dread… The existence of such a spirit among our youth led to world Arrogance's not daring to infringe on our borders... History shows that every people that lost the culture of Jihad and martyrdom were brought down." [4]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] The speech was apparently delivered on April 14, 2005. http://web.peykeiran.com/net_iran/irnewsbody.aspx?ID=23105; http://www.asylum-norway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=182. The speech was apparently delivered on April 14, 2005.
[2] Mahdaviyat studies are concerning the Shiite doctrine of the Hidden Imam, who is to reappear as Mahdi, i.e., the rightly guided one.

[3] These refer to famous victories of the Muslims under the leadership of Prophet Mohammad: The Battle of Khaybar took place in 628 A.D., the Battle of Uhud in 625 A.D., and the war of the Ahzab refers to the siege of Al-Madina in 627 A.D.

[4] Kayhan (Iran), April 4, 2004.

[defari]

...


Once again, LEARN ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stupid blind Nazi.

[KettleWhistle]

Palestinians after killing 2 Jews: http://www.charleslipson.com/Images/Bloody-hands-of-Palestinian-color.jpg

The red stuff on this person's hand is real blood.

[Mobeen]

Yo defari, did you ask your relatives of what i said? no ok so than shut the hel* up..


Wow savvy nice..unfortunately i couldent see the videos man.. even though I got T1 it still wouldent go but i checked out the site. Nice jewish site man.. Shows of muslims killing other foreigners. BUT STILL THE POINT REMAINS I DID NOT YET SEE ONE OR MORE PICTURES OR VIDEOS SHOWING ME THAT THE PALESTINIANS ARE OCCUPYING, ABUSING, KILLING JEWS IN AN INHUMANE WAY.. Thats what im looking for not some bull Sh$^. Although there was one video I saw from the site was "teach your children peace" ok... now i dont know HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TO SAY THIS but how will a child learn peace when the jewish brutes have taken his mother or father or other family member right infront of his eyes for no apparent reason. He would rather give his own life to kill 1 of his enemies than be rules by them for the rest of his life. One more thing, the movie was very strong on showing Palestinian/hamas children but why dident it put this picture?

http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2005/march/war_2005_march_images_2.html
scroll all the way down in this site and you will see two JEWISH KIDS MIMICING JEWISH OFFICERS WITH M4 ASSAULT RIFFLES.

Im telling everyone here to look at this site. Look it through good and see the horrors that Israel does to the palestinians. Im not talking about iraq, Im not talking about Iran, no Im not talking about afganistan, its just ISRAEL killing, abusing, occupying palestinians. Also i dident know this but they are actually teaching their youth to become like them. Weak~
The statements of Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani's are his opinions. They dont concern me and really dont show me palestinians killing jews.

Defari shut the hel* up again please. Atleast im paying for my education unlike you who is getting free college in sweden. Always thinking like a jew i see.

Kettlewhistle give me something like the site i gave you
http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2005/march/war_2005_march_images_2.html
Your pics are real but i dont know.

Go to the link and see!

[KettleWhistle]

I honestly think that you are either a comedian, a troll pulling our leg, or plain insane. I read Mein Kampf during my undergraduate studies, and aside from the hatemongering within, it is one of the most droll books out there.

As for Palestinians and your pathetic examples of whatever that stuff is supposed to exemplify, Israel gave them full autonomy. They chose to use to wage war by means that violate numerous international conventions. Their poverty and misery are of their own doing, a result of their refusal to accept peaceful separation. So don't you dare blame their victimhood on us Jews.

[Reffo]

Ok Reffo. How are the arabs at fault here? I personally dont care who took the land 3000 years ago or 800 years ago. The first people to live there werent the jews. In fact we cant even go to back then, it tooo far back..The jews cause ALOT of unneeded suffering. You know what they are aiming for? They want to avenge there holocaust victims. It's not a question of who lived there 3000 years ago. The point is that JEWS lived there CONTINUOUSLY for 3000 years and the Arabs did not want to accept a Jewish state even though the UN voted for it. The Arabs bear the primary responsibility because they started the war against the Jews and they continue with the violence to this very day! That's why they are at fault.

YES THE UN DID AND YES THE ARABS STARTED A WAR TO ANNIHILATE THE JEWS AND YES THEY LOST THREE TIMES THANKS TO US/UK HELP. SO THE WAR CONTINUES... Look reffo tell me why the Israelis have started to take palestinian land little by little each year. Making their settlements on palestinian land and if some one gets a little close they get sprayed with m4 assualt riffles? WHY WHY>? becuase Israel is a power and is getting greedy. It wants to conquer and get more land. This is the true case. REFFO THE WORLD DOES NOT RUN SOO PEACEFULLY YOU MUST REALIZE THAT.They took land to maximize their security. The logic was that "if the Arabs are FORCING us into a war that we don't want then we may as well do what is necessary to help us protect ourselves". Sure, that action also hurts ordinary Palestinians but that unfortunately happens in war. So, if the Palestinians don't want TO BE HURT then THEY SHOULD STOP HURTING THE ISRAELIS. I hope that once that happens, then the Israelis will hopefully be wise enough to return most of the land, but they should be careful before they do so because if they return the land before the Palestinians areready to make peace, then they are giving up an advantage for nothing,

The point of no return has been reached my friend like i responded to your first post response, Everyone wants to avenge someones live. Thats the case. Yes too much pride is a sin. But look honour is not. If your defending your religion, country, and fighting in the name of Allah then its considered sane. Look man as much as i would want a peaceful world I really dont think it will happen.
Some things that might help Israel
1. Remove all of your settlements on palestinian lands.
2. Take away All the stupid checkpoints and barriers dividing Israel and Palestian. I better say this too becuase i know some morron is gonna say it. No there wont be any suicide bombs becuase the palestinians got what they want.
3. THERE MUST BE TRUST AND SO FAR ISRAEL HAS NONE and will have none.
There is a fine line between what you call HONOUR and PRIDE. To me, honour is when you mind your own business, you live peacefully and let live. Then someone comes along and attacks you, hurts your loved ones etc...I can understand someone like that fighting and defending their honour, but that's NOT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ARABS. Actually, that's what happened to the Israelis, they just wanted to establish their own state and live peacefully but the ARABS ATTACKED THEM and they had to defend themselves. As you say, the Arabs and Palestinians lost "Three Times" and THEIR PRIDE HAS BEEN HURT. OK, so they had some stupid and bad leaders who are now dead. When are they going to wake up and realize that what they did was wrong? When are they going to stop gambling with their and their families future? Like gambling addicts who say "I know I lost last time but next time I will Win" and what for? For their misplaced pride?

[savvy]

Mobeen, Jews r not allowed to pray on the temple mount in Jerusalem, which is their temple, because the Muslims claim it belongs to them. The wailing wall that the jews pray before, has also islamists making claims on it. There's a mosque behind the wall, and when jews pray, they can hear loud speakers form the mosque calling for their destruction. I wonder what would happen, if Muslims were told they couldn't pray in Mecca.

[Anath]

Let's look at the horror done by Israel to the Palestinians. In the last few years of the latest Intifada about 3500 Palestinians (maybe a little more since the last time I saw these figures) have died in the fighting, and that includes suicide bombers and armed militants killed in attacks against Israelis. On the Israeli side the number is a little more 1000 killed.


Now let's look at the horrors that get unleashed in the rest of the Middle East. Hama in Syria in 82. Over the course of one month of fighting at least 10,000 people were killed. That's the regime's figure. The real number is probably higher.

The Anfal campaign in Iraq during the 80s. At least 100,000 Kurds massacred.

The Civil War in my own Lebanon. According to the most conservative estimates some 100,000 people killed in all for the 15 years of war. The real figure is probably more like 150,000 or 200,000 even. About 1 million displaced from their homes.


Edit: I forgot to mention Sudan. At least 1 million killed in the decades of civil war in southern Sudan, and the death rate for the new war in eastern Sudan (the Darfur) is in genocide proportions allready and not looking likely to stop any time soon.

[KettleWhistle]

It's not a question of who lived there 3000 years ago. The point is that JEWS lived there CONTINUOUSLY for 3000 years

And that doesn't even matter so much because 96% of the land given to Israel in the partition was owned by Jews (JNF) and the rest was state land. Not a single person was kicked out due to the partition.

[KettleWhistle]

Let's look at the horror done by Israel to the Palestinians. In the last few years of the latest Intifada about 3500 Palestinians (maybe a little more since the last time I saw these figures) have died in the fighting, and that includes suicide bombers and armed militants killed in attacks against Israelis. On the Israeli side the number is a little more 1000 killed.

Thanks for the reply, but you also have to consider the reasons for this horror. First of all, the war is always horrible. And the fact that more Palestinians died doesn't mean that their are right in this conflict. They wage their wars for no good reason, and then blame the people they attack for their own victimhood. Had they put down their weapons and started to work to improve their own lives, there would be no violence there, period.

[Mobeen]

KettleWhistle its nice to know your jewish, infact almost all of you are.

I honestly think that you are either a comedian, a troll pulling our leg, or plain insane.

None of the above. I am a civilized muslim american showing the truth which i can see hurts you dearly.

As for Palestinians and your pathetic examples of whatever that stuff is supposed to exemplify, Israel gave them full autonomy. They chose to use to wage war by means that violate numerous international conventions. Their poverty and misery are of their own doing, a result of their refusal to accept peaceful separation.

ARE YOU INSANE!!! My examples on that website link show you what really happens and it looks like you cant handle it. The Israelis are GREEDY, pure greedy thats all. If they wanted peace so badly why did the Israelis do NUMEROUS UNESSESARY GENOCIDES? Why would they kill innocent palestinian childrens fathers and mothers for no reason? Why becuase they know that if this occurs than the child will grow up and try to kill jews so they can kill him too. If he succeeds than oh well the world has more pity for Israel, and so Israel can go on ahead and make more settlements on palestinian land. If he fails than the cycle will continue until one of his generations will succeed.
So don't you dare blame their victimhood on us Jews
Are you getting mad? Dont be man, its only a forum with people discussing their opinions.


the Arabs did not want to accept a Jewish state even though the UN voted for it
The UN, thats bull the UN is the UNITED STATES and thats it.



They took land to maximize their security. The logic was that "if the Arabs are FORCING us into a war that we don't want then we may as well do what is necessary to help us protect ourselves".
How the hel* do genocides help them? HOW DOES TAKING INNOCENT LIFES HELP PROTECT THEM. IT HELPS THEM FEEL BETTER EVERYDAY THATS WHY? TO KNOW THAT THERE IS A PARENTLESS CHILD IN PALESTIAN CRYING FOR HIS MOTHER? THATS JUST SICK..

To me, honour is when you mind your own business, you live peacefully and let live.

The reason you have the wrong ideas is because you have the wrong meaning of words.. Like honor, what a bad translation..

WHEN WILL THE GREEDY ISRAELIS STOP OCCUPYING PALESTINIAN LAND. Trust me my friends when Israel takes away all its barriers and checkpoints and leave the palestinian land. Than and only than will peace start in that part of the world. The palestinians will not use suicide bombs although it will be SOO HARD TO RESIST...but i know if the Israelis pull back EVERY SINGLE JEWISH sole from Palestinian land the bombings will stop and hopefully peace will start.

[Mobeen]

Thanks for the reply, but you also have to consider the reasons for this horror. First of all, the war is always horrible. And the fact that more Palestinians died doesn't mean that their are right in this conflict. They wage their wars for no good reason, and then blame the people they attack for their own victimhood. Had they put down their weapons and started to work to improve their own lives, there would be no violence there, period.

How truly ignorant and full of unawareness

[KettleWhistle]

Yep, I'm getting to think that you're just insane.

[savvy]

I agree with KettleWhistle. The government of Qatar recently donated 1.3 million dollars to help Palestianian's continue the so- called "resistance" against Israel. Qatar, along with all the other oil-rich Arab nations can easily help Palestinians build better schools, hospitals and help them improve their standard of living. Instead they provide them with funds to destroy jews/ israelis and then tell Palestians that Israel/ Jews/ America/ God knows who is responsible for Palestinians being poor. The Greatest oppressors of Arabs are Arabs themselves.

[Anath]

The horror part should have been in quotations almost. My point was to show how tame the conflict is in actual horrors compared to the other conflicts of the Middle East.

When the IDF pulled out from the Shouf and Bhamdoun areas in the Lebanese Mountains in 83, the Druze and the Palestinians drove out all the Christians thee, massacred some 1,500 civilians in the most brutal, medieval, fashion and plundered and destroyed all our villages. Some of those villages are still abandoned today 15 years after the war ended.

Sorry, but you people are wimps in comparison. ;)

[savvy]

Mobeen I am not a Jew, so I don't think you can call me biased. Besides ur understanding of Israelis and Jews seems very Quranish to me. After all why should a Muslim expect any better from the "sons of swines and pigs" right ?

The UN, thats bull the UN is the UNITED STATES and thats it.

Haha. more Islamic propagana. Mind showing me the Islamic site or the Arab newspapers that say UN= America.
No, point arguing with brain-washed Islamists.

[Anath]

The UN, thats bull the UN is the UNITED STATES and thats it.


Actually, the Soviet Union was the country that really wanted to create Israel back then in 47. Not so much the US. It took several decades before Israel became a major US ally.

[Reffo]

The UN, thats bull the UN is the UNITED STATES and thats it. But it's OK to quote the same UN when it votes against Israel?

How the hel* do genocides help them? HOW DOES TAKING INNOCENT LIFES HELP PROTECT THEM. IT HELPS THEM FEEL BETTER EVERYDAY THATS WHY? TO KNOW THAT THERE IS A PARENTLESS CHILD IN PALESTIAN CRYING FOR HIS MOTHER? THATS JUST SICK..Yes, I might ask you the same question about what Arabs do and have done to innocent Israeli men, women, children, old and young. You already admitted that the Arabs intended to ANNIHILATE the Jews when they started the wars. What do you think the word ANNIHILATE means if not genocide?
YES THE UN DID AND YES THE ARABS STARTED A WAR TO ANNIHILATE THE JEWS

The reason you have the wrong ideas is because you have the wrong meaning of words.. Like honor, what a bad translation..OK, if you don't like my definition, what do you think is the meaning of the word "HONOUR"?

WHEN WILL THE GREEDY ISRAELIS STOP OCCUPYING PALESTINIAN LAND. So you think the Israelis are greedy? Even though, as I said before, the Arabs own territories 650 times the size of Israel which is over 99% of the Middle East and ALL of North Africa? They begrudged even the small land of Israel that is legitemately owned by Jews? So, the additional land that they occupy for now will be kept not for reasons of greed but because the two people are still in a state of war. It's a war that Jews don't want but many of the Arabs still want because of a sense of misplaced honour (as you said) and other stupid reasons like hate and revenge. Like I said, hopefully Israel will be wise enough to return most of the land when they see that the Arabs ae willing to make a REAL peace with them. There is no point in returning any land beforehand, even though it looks like they will be vacating Gaza shortly. I actually think that the Arabs will not recognize this as a gesture of good will but will continue their ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS!

Trust me my friends when Israel takes away all its barriers and checkpoints and leave the palestinian land. Than and only than will peace start in that part of the world. The palestinians will not use suicide bombs although it will be SOO HARD TO RESIST...but i know if the Israelis pull back EVERY SINGLE JEWISH sole from Palestinian land the bombings will stop and hopefully peace will start.How can I trust someone whose signature is: "My favorite book was Mein Kampf. You guys should check it out. its pretty good. :) " and someone who admits that suicide bombing will be "SOO HARD TO RESIST..."

[Reffo]

Mobeen

You may want to read a post by Nuttie which gives someone's idea of what "HONOUR" means. I am actually very interested in what you think of it:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=147279#post147279

[Mobeen]

Think whatever you want of me KettleWhistle i dont care. Just know that i think you are a confused jew who doesnt want to know what really is going right know in palestian.

I agree with KettleWhistle. The government of Qatar recently donated 1.3 million dollars to help Palestianian's continue the so- called "resistance" against Israel. Qatar, along with all the other oil-rich Arab nations can easily help Palestinians build better schools, hospitals and help them improve their standard of living. Instead they provide them with funds to destroy jews/ israelis and then tell Palestians that Israel/ Jews/ America/ God knows who is responsible for Palestinians being poor. The Greatest oppressors of Arabs are Arabs themselves.

Savvy, look. Let me explain something to you. Why should the muslim governments give the palestinian government money to build schools, hospitals and other facilities when they know that if they do such a thing Israel will go ahead and destroy it. Thats Israels job in the middle east. To destroy any hope of Palestian becoming a real, true, unoccupied state. I gave you a website link and looks like you havent been there. The pictures tell all. If schools are made how will the palestinian children learn anything when they hear gunfire outside of there class room and go out to look seeing their loved ones die? I dont think thats a real good environment to learn.

Besides ur understanding of Israelis and Jews seems very Quranish to me
ok. Whatever makes you feel good. Nope i dont expect anything better.

more Islamic propagana. Mind showing me the Islamic site or the Arab newspapers that say UN= America.
No, point arguing with brain-washed Islamists.
Hey smart guy, look Where is the UN located? in america in new york. I live there i have even been there numerous times. It ALL Prapoganda, im not brain washed, im speaking the truth in reality.

Reffo listen. The UN even if it does vote against Israel wont make any difference because Israel has its own mind. See before they were under control of the US but now they have taken (still taking) all they need from the US and becoming more free to do what they want. Ex. The Israelis kill Hamas leader and founder> without US concent. What does the US do? Absolutely nothing.

Well the Arabs have done genocide's (true) but not as much as the Furer did to you guys. So be thankful

The word Honour means to stand up and defend. If someone mocks you, gives you discrace, or plainly insults you than its your duty to keep your honor and give them what they deserve. Ex. Mujahideen vs. US Military Iraq

How can I trust someone whose signature is: "My favorite book was Mein Kampf. You guys should check it out. its pretty good. " and someone who admits that suicide bombing will be "SOO HARD TO RESIST..."
Its not my fault that your hate for Adolph Hitler blinds you from his views. HOW CAN I TRUST SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE COUNTLESS GENOCIDES, KILLED MY PEOPLE FOR NO REASON AND MOCKED MY RELIGION? and by the way you should quote the whole paragraph because this one sentence was not the point you dumby.

Reffo to tell you the truth i really dont have time to read all that information. Please put it in 1 or 2 lines. thank you.

[Anath]

HOW CAN I TRUST SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE COUNTLESS GENOCIDES.

Someone needs to explain to this person what a genocide is, because I suspect there is a major misunderstanding at work here. Either that, or he's a troll. More likely the second option.

[Reffo]

Someone needs to explain to this person what a genocide is, because I suspect there is a major misunderstanding at work here. Either that, or he's a troll. More likely the second option.Well, he certainly does not want to engage in a meaningful discussion. When he is presented with evidence and logical flaws in his arguments, he chooses avoidance rather than discussion. So, he is as good as a troll.

Reffo listen. The UN even if it does vote against Israel wont make any difference because Israel has its own mind. See before they were under control of the US but now they have taken (still taking) all they need from the US and becoming more free to do what they want. Ex. The Israelis kill Hamas leader and founder> without US concent. What does the US do? Absolutely nothing.So I take it that you agree that the UN is not just a rubber stamp controlled by the US just to support Israel?

Well the Arabs have done genocide's (true) but not as much as the Furer did to you guys. So be thankfulSo why aren't you thankful that Israel did not do the same to yours?

The word Honour means to stand up and defend. If someone mocks you, gives you discrace, or plainly insults you than its your duty to keep your honor and give them what they deserve. Ex. Mujahideen vs. US Military IraqYeah, but it's OK for you and yours to "give discrace, or plainly insult" other people especially Jews? Have I got that right?

Reffo to tell you the truth i really dont have time to read all that information. Please put it in 1 or 2 lines. thank you.OK, this is as short as I can make it. Is this your idea of honour?
The social rules which govern patriarchal societies Patriarchal societies share certain essential customs. Eight social rules, fundamental to patriarchy, are found all over the world:

Rule 1. Put your ‘tribe’ first. Intense emotional loyalty to your tribe should be part of your identity.

Rule 2. Moral standards apply only within the tribe.

Rule 3. It is acceptable for leaders to ‘eliminate’ their own people who are thought to hold wrong beliefs.

Rule 4. Patriarchal societies demand conformity. Individuality is frowned on. The Japanese used to say: “The nail that sticks up gets pounded down”.

Rule 5. Beliefs are either all right or all wrong. People are either good or bad. There are few ‘shades of gray’. You are either with us or against us.

Rule 6. Hard work, once only for slaves, is still for inferiors. An upper class man should never be seen doing manual labor such as washing the car or mowing the lawn.

Rule 7. Men must dominate women in every way.

Rule 8. The Shame-Honor Code must be followed. In a patriarchy your honor means your superiority.

[savvy]

Savvy, look. Let me explain something to you. Why should the muslim governments give the palestinian government money to build schools, hospitals and other facilities when they know that if they do such a thing Israel will go ahead and destroy it. Thats Israels job in the middle east. To destroy any hope of Palestian becoming a real, true, unoccupied state. I gave you a website link and looks like you havent been there. The pictures tell all. If schools are made how will the palestinian children learn anything when they hear gunfire outside of there class room and go out to look seeing their loved ones die? I dont think thats a real good environment to learn.



Mobeen , I think it's the other way around. Why r there posters in Plaestinian schools of suicide bombers? Why r kids thought to hate jews 24/ 7. Why do mothers want to sacrifice thier sons to kill jews? Why do Palestinian kids sing songs like "Arabs our beloved, jews our dogs". Why is there rampant anti-semitism and intolerance in the Arab media, depicting stereotypes of jews and so on, Why don't u go check it out urself. Israel doesn't destroy anyone. Infact when the Israel government ruled , Jerusalem had 80% christians, after the PLO took over in 1996 or so the christian population has been reduced to 8%. Whereas if u look at Israel christians r treated well there, I know cause my cousin lives there. I can't say the same abt christians in Palestine.

[Mobeen]

CALL ME WHATEVER YOU WANT just becuase you can't prove me wrong you must use senseless names..

UN is something that will be there to help and support Isreal whenever and whereever.

OMG.. FOOL Israel DOES genocides thats why the palestinians are being enraged and *trying* to fight back. Omg Reffo you are a really foolish child..

hm.... lets see, i agree that the Jews did get discraced and did get their honour crushed. But dont you think its gone alittle TOO FAR. Now just becuase Israel has crossed the line many muslims will pay for their lifes. This really saddens me.

Bla bla bla reffo....


The posters are their because those people are trying to LIBERATE their country one way or another. **Taught**
They are taught so because the jews are oppressors, why would the kids love being oppressed in their OWN land and PLEASE DONT GIVE THE THAT SH** GOD given land or 500 years before...
Mothers don't but what choice do they have?? Tell me?? BE CIVILIZED AND TRY TO WORK WITH THE JEWS will be your answer. Typical jewish answer. This is completely false. Im telling you Savvy if you were to go in the streets of palestian and live their for 2 days or so it would be pure hell for you and you might even not come back to tell your tale. :eek:

Why is there rampant anti-semitism and intolerance in the Arab media, depicting stereotypes of jews and so on, Why don't u go check it out urself.
YOUR DUMB you know that? WHY IS THEIR ANTI-SEMITISM AND INTOLERANCE IN THE ||WORLD|| MEDIA AGIANST THE ARABS? wow you been in your jerusalam hole alittle bit too long.

Infact when the Israel government ruled , Jerusalem had 80% christians, after the PLO took over in 1996 or so the christian population has been reduced to 8%. Whereas if u look at Israel christians r treated well there, I know cause my cousin lives there. I can't say the same abt christians in Palestine.

You get dumber and dumber dont ya? listen my friend how many muslims do you think live in jerusalam?(noda) If their were any they would be arrested due to charges of terrorism.
Christians.. looks like you havent visited my bottom link. If you scroll down and look at the horrors of reality in palestian you will come across a BBC story of some Christians who were trying to escort some palestinian children to their schools when some jews came and gave the christians a beat down. Wow is that what Jews do to christians in Palestian huh? and to think you are blaming some of these events on the PLO. WoW. I would like to know something.. How old is your cousin, is he rich? Does he live a luxurious life?

Im BAck

[savvy]

THE BELEAGUERED CHRISTIANS OF THE PALESTINIAN-CONTROLLED AREAS

David Raab



The Christian community in the areas administered by the Palestinian Authority (PA) is a small but symbolically important one. About 35,000 Christians live in the West Bank and 3,000 in Gaza,1 representing about 1.3 percent of Palestinians. In addition, 12,500 Christians reside in eastern Jerusalem.

This population is rapidly dwindling, however, and not solely as a result of the difficult military and economic situation of the past two years. Rather, there are numerous indications that the Christian population is beleaguered due to its Christianity. Taken in context of the condition of Christians in other Middle Eastern countries, this picture is especially credible and troubling.



A Second-Class People
Under Islam, Christians are considered dhimmi, a tolerated but second class who are afforded protection by Islam. Dhimmitude is integral to Islam; it is a "protection pact" that suspends "the [Muslim] conqueror's initial right to kill or enslave [Jews and Christians], provided they submitted themselves to pay tribute."2

However, the reality of Christianity under Islam has often been difficult. "Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians...is abusive and discriminatory by any standard....Under Islam, the targeted dhimmi community and each individual in it are made to live in a state of perpetual humiliation in the eyes of the ruling community."3 As described by a Christian Lebanese president, Bashir Gemayil: "a Christian...is not a full citizen and cannot exercise political rights in any of the countries which were once conquered byIslam."4

Palestinian Christians have suffered as dhimmis for centuries. An English traveler in the Holy Land in 1816, for example, remarked that Christians were not permitted to ride on horseback without express permission from the Muslim Pasha.5

Other European travelers to the Holy Land mentioned the practice whereby "a dhimmi must not come face to face with a Muslim in the street but pass him to the left, the impure side," and described how Christians were humiliated and insulted in the streets of Jerusalem until the mid-1800s. The British consul in Jerusalem wrote that in the Holy Land, particularly in Jerusalem until 1839, Christians were pushed into the gutter by any Muslim who would swear: "turn to my left, thou dog." They were forbidden to ride on a mount in town or to wear bright clothes.6

In the early 1900s, sporadic attacks on Christians by bands of Muslims occurred in many Palestinian towns.7 During the Palestinian Arab revolt in the late 1930s, which involved very few Christians, if Christian villagers refused to supply the terrorist bands with weapons and provisions, their vines were uprooted and their women raped. The rebels forced the Christian population to observe the weekly day of rest on Friday instead of Sunday and to replace the tarboosh with the kaffiyeh for men, whereas women were forced to wear the veil. In 1936, Muslims marched through the Christian village of Bir Zayt near Ramallah chanting: "We are going to kill the Christians."8

In the early 1900s, with the Jewish return to the area, Palestinian Christians began to band with the Muslims to oppose Jewish immigration, at least in part as a way to deflect Muslim hostility away from themselves. As Sir John Chancellor, British High Commissioner in Palestine, put it in 1931: "Christian Arab leaders, moreover, have admitted to me that in establishing close relations with the [Palestinian] Moslems the Christians have not been uninfluenced by fears of the treatment they might suffer at the hands of the Moslem majority in certain eventualities."9

From 1953 until 1967, Jordan undertook to Islamize the Christian quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem by laws forbidding Christians to buy land and houses....It ordered the compulsory closure of schools on Muslim holidays and authorized mosques to be built near churches, thus preventing any possibility of enlargement.10



Regional Repression of Christians
The current Christian reality in many Middle Eastern countries is also difficult. In Egypt, "Muslim, but not Christian, schools receive state funding....It is nearly impossible to restore or build new churches....Christians are frequently ostracized or insulted in public, and laws prohibit Muslim conversions to Christianity....Islamic radicals have frequently launched physical attacks on [Christian] Copts."11

Saudi Arabia "is one of the most oppressive countries for Christians. There are no churches in the whole country. Foreign workers make up one-third of the population, many of whom are Christians. For their entire stay, which may be years, they are forbidden to display any Christian symbols or Bibles, or even meet together publicly to worship and pray. Some have watched their personal Bibles put through a shredder when they entered the country."12

An official Saudi cleric, Sheik Saad Al-Buraik, pronounced in a Riyadh government mosque, "People should know that...the battle that we are going through is...also with those who believe that Allah is a third in a Trinity, and those who said that Jesus is the son of Allah, and Allah is Jesus, the son of Mary."13

In Iran, "the printing of Christian literature is illegal, converts from Islam are liable to be killed, and most evangelical churches must function underground."14 Christians are not allowed to testify in an Islamic court when a Muslim is involved and they are discriminated against in employment. A 1992 UN report cites cases of imprisonment and torture of Muslims who converted to Christianity and of Armenian and Assyrian pastors, the dissolution of the Iranian Bible Society, the closure of Christian libraries, and the confiscation of all Christian books, including 20,000 copies of the New Testament in Farsi.15

In Israel, too, Muslim fundamentalists seek to assert dominance over Christian Arabs. "Attacks against and condemnation of Christians are also often heard in mosques, in sermons and in publications of the Muslim Movement."16 In Nazareth, a significant clash developed in recent years when Muslims sought to build a grand mosque next to the Basilica of the Annunciation, the dominant Christian landmark in the town.17

[Mediocrates]

So what's the deal with Arab violence? Take your pick: Arab on Arab, Arab on European, Arab on Israeli?

[savvy]

Official PA Domination of Christians
Islam is the official religion of the Palestinian Authority.18 In addition, fundamentalist Hamas and Islamic Jihad have promoted Islamic influence on Palestinian society.

Officially, the PA claims to treat Palestinian Christians equally and pointedly seeks to display this publicly. Christmas is an official holiday. Arafat has stated as his mission "the protection of the Christian and Muslim holy places,"19 and several Christians have held prominent PA positions.

Occasionally, however, contrary messages slip through. In a Friday sermon on October 13, 2000, broadcast live on official Palestinian Authority television from a Gaza mosque, Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya proclaimed: "Allah the almighty has called upon us not to ally with the Jews or the Christians, not to like them, not to become their partners, not to support them, and not to sign agreements with them."20

In addition, no PA law protects religious freedom.21 While asserting that all Palestinians' "liberty and freedom to worship and to practice their religious beliefs are protected," a PA Information Ministry statement also stresses that: "The Palestinian people are also governed by [Islamic] Shari'a law...with regard to issues pertaining to religious matters. According to Shari'a Law, applicable throughout the Muslim world, any Muslim who [converts] or declares becoming an unbeliever is committing a major sin punishable by capital punishment...the [Palestinian Authority] cannot take a different position on this matter."22

In attempting to assuage Christians, the statement goes on to say that capital punishment for conversion "has never happened, nor is it likely to happen" in the Palestinian territories, but that "norms and tradition will take care of such situations should they occur."

The PA's judicial system also does not ensure equal protection to Christians. For example, an Israeli government report noted the failure of the judicial system in Bethlehem to provide protection to Christian land-owners.

The Comtsieh family (a Christian family) has a plot of land with a building that serves as a business center in the city. Several years ago a Moslem family from Hebron took possession of the building and started to use it without permission.
The Comtsieh family filed a claim with the judicial system and after long and arduous court hearings, the court ruled in the claimant's favor.
However, the verdict was never enforced by the police and representatives of the family from Hebron later appeared with a new court verdict (signed by the same judge who ruled in the claimants' favor previously), canceling the previous verdict and ratifying the Hebron family's ownership of the property.23

An Israeli government report in 1997 asserted more direct harassment of Christians by the PA.

In August 1997, Palestinian policemen in Beit Sahur opened fire on a crowd of Christian Arabs, wounding six. The Palestinian Authority is attempting to cover up the incident and has warned against publicizing the story. The local commander of the Palestinian police instructed journalists not to report on the incident....
In late June 1997, a Palestinian convert to Christianity in the northern West Bank was arrested by agents of the Palestinian Authority's Preventive Security Service. He had been regularly attending church and prayer meetings and was distributing Bibles. The Palestinian Authority ordered his arrest....
The pastor of a church in Ramallah was recently warned by Palestinian Authority security agents that they were monitoring his evangelistic activities in the area and wanted him to come in for questioning for spreading Christianity.
A Palestinian convert to Christianity living in a village near Nablus was recently arrested by the Palestinian police. A Muslim preacher was brought in by the police, and he attempted to convince the convert to return to Islam. When the convert refused, he was brought before a Palestinian court and sentenced to prison for insulting the religious leader....
A Palestinian convert to Christianity in Ramallah was recently visited by Palestinian policemen at his home and warned that if he continued to preach Christianity, he would be arrested and charged with being an Israeli spy.24

Another report in 2002, based on Israeli intelligence gathered during Israel's Defensive Shield operation, asserts that "The Fatah and Arafat's intelligence network intimidated and maltreated the Christian population in Bethlehem. They extorted money from them, confiscated land and property and left them to the mercy of street gangs and other criminal activity, with no protection."25

Similar findings were reported in the Washington Times following the PA takeover of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem in April 2002.

Residents of this biblical city are expressing relief at the exile to Cyprus last week of 13 hard-core Palestinian militants, who they said had imposed a two-year reign of terror that included rape, extortion and executions. The 13 sent to Cyprus, as well as 26 others sent to the Gaza Strip, had taken shelter in the Church of the Nativity, triggering a 39-day siege that ended Friday.
Palestinians who live near the church described the group as a criminal gang that preyed especially on Palestinian Christians, demanding "protection money" from the main businesses, which make and sell religious artifacts.
"Finally the Christians can breathe freely," said Helen, 50, a Christian mother of four. "We are so delighted that these criminals who have intimidated us for such a long time are now going away."26

Adding insult to injury, during this reign of terror, the PA's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (declared a terrorist organization by the United States) sent a letter to the Bethlehem municipality "requesting" aid in the form of monetary contributions for military operations. Cynically adding a symbol of Christianity to their extortion demand, the letter was signed "Fatah/Al Aqsa Martyrs (and Church of) Nativity Brigades" [emphasis added].27

[savvy]

The PA Takeover of the Church of the Nativity
On April 2, 2002, as Israel implemented its Defensive Shield operation to combat the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure, in Bethlehem "a number of terrorists took over St. Mary's Church grounds and...held the priest and a number of nuns there against their will. The terrorists used the Church as a firing position, from which they shot at IDF soldiers in the area. The soldiers did not return fire toward the church when fired upon [emphasis added]. An IDF force, under the command of the Bethlehem area regional commander, entered the Church grounds today without battle, in coordination with its leaders, and evacuated the priest and nuns."

That same day, "More than 100 Palestinian gunmen...[including] soldiers and policemen, entered the Church of the Nativity on Tuesday, as Israeli troops swept into Bethlehem in an attempt to quell violence by Palestinian suicide bombers and militias." The actual number of terrorists was between 150 and 180, among them prominent members of the Fatah Tanzim. As the New York Times put it, "Palestinian gunmen have frequently used the area around the church as a refuge, with the expectation that Israel would try to avoid fighting near the shrine" [emphasis added].35

And in fact this was the case. The commander of the Israeli forces in the area asserted that the IDF would not break into the church itself and would not harm this site holy to Christianity. Israel also deployed more mature and more reserved reserve-duty soldiers in this sensitive situation that militarily called for more agile, standing-army soldiers.36

On the other hand, the Palestinians did not treat it the same way. Not only did they take their weapons with them into the Church of the Nativity and fire, on occasion, from the church, but also reportedly booby-trapped the entrance to the church.37

On April 7, "one of the few priests evacuated from the church told Israeli television yesterday that gunmen had shot their way in, and that the priests, monks and nuns were essentially hostages....The priest declined to call the clergy 'hostages,' but repeatedly said in fluent English: 'We have absolutely no choice. They have guns, we do not.'"38

Christians clearly saw the takeover as a violation of the sanctity of the church. In an interview with CWNews, Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, the Vatican's Undersecretary of State and the top foreign-policy official, asserted that "The Palestinians have entered into bilateral agreements [with the Holy See] in which they undertake to maintain and respect the status quo regarding the Christian holy places and the rights of Christian communities. To explain the gravity of the current situation, let me begin with the fact that the occupation of the holy places by armed men is a violation of a long tradition of law that dates back to the Ottoman era. Never before have they been occupied - for such a lengthy time - by armed men."39 On April 14, he reiterated his position in an interview on Vatican Radio.40

[savvy]

So what's the deal with Arab violence? Take your pick: Arab on Arab, Arab on European, Arab on Israeli?

I am trying to show her that Jews are not responsible for violence against christians in Palestine, Muslims are.

[Anath]

So what's the deal with Arab violence? Take your pick: Arab on Arab, Arab on European, Arab on Israeli?

All of the above, and more...

[Berti Pane]

Dear israelforum members,

I think we need to be careful when we talk about religion,unfair comments cause misunderstandings,now if you define muslims are the enemy of you then I may start to believe you see me as your enemy '?' :rolleyes:

[andak01]

Kind of what I've been saying for months and even years around here. If all Muslims are the enemy, then no Muslims can be part of the solution. That simply doesn't jive with reality.

[pagan]

Kind of what I've been saying for months and even years around here. If all Muslims are the enemy, then no Muslims can be part of the solution. That simply doesn't jive with reality.

No!!! muslims are not the enemy . The enemy is Islam .Pure and Simple.

[adara]

No!!! muslims are not the enemy . The enemy is Islam .Pure and Simple.


Are not Muslims followers of Islam? Please explain.

[andak01]

Dear israelforum members,

I think we need to be careful when we talk about religion,unfair comments cause misunderstandings,now if you define muslims are the enemy of you then I may start to believe you see me as your enemy '?' :rolleyes:

Too late!! You, me, Muhammad Ali, that guy that won the Nobel prize in Economics, the senator and the guy in the House of Lords, the architect of the Sears Tower, all enemies because of our faith.

[Mil]

It's all big Zionist conspiracy anyways..... so you have nothing to wary about on your side.

[Conrad Myrland]

Holocaust survivor and journalist Noah Klieger gives a lecture to foreign reporters in Jerusalem 22 January 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQwMQfwLpDc

Klieger
- discusses the similarities and differences between the Nazists' and Islamists' attitude towards Jews. "The Muslims don't have a masterplan of how to get rid of the Jews, but in the end effect they both want the same thing: They want to get rid of us."
[After this comment there is a small part of the lecture missing due to change of battery and video tape.]
- speaks about his first travels in Israel after 1948, and reveals his love for the countries' cities, nature, beaches and landscapes.
- explains why Israel is so reluctant to give up the Golan heights.
- point out that the Arab countries surrounding Israel are not stable democracies.

[andak01]

There are two types of followers of Islam –Ignorant Muslims and evil (true) Muslims.
90% of the world Muslim population belongs to Ignorant Muslim class. They are ignorant about the evil teachings of Islam .The group consisting of true evil Muslims like Bin Laden are the real threat to the world.
So the answer to your question is both yes and No.

How many kinds of Hindu are there? I know there is another kind besides you, because I had dinner with a wonderful family just this evening. Their children are my children's friends and that's the way it should be despite the bigots of the world. I am not ignorant of Islam. I follow the words of the Quran, "to you is your religion and to me is my religion", "there is no compulsion in religion". I follow the Sunna where the Prophet said nobody should fear a Muslim neighbor. I believe in a supreme being, one of whose names is Al Ghuffar, the Forgiver. The deobandis don't have a lock on religious interpretation among Muslims. And faithfreedom doesn't have a lock on Islamic scholarship. Thinking people will go and read for themselves.

[bararallu]

Geegatz, I think we are being spammed. I mean it's mildly pro Israeli spam, but all spam is the pits. :cool: