A Natural Removal?

[genghis_tom]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12718406/

After reading this, I came to a conclusion of sorts: Because Palestinians are grossly in debt, have had their gas supply cut off, and cannot afford to have their government function properly, will this move them into Jordan, Egypt, etc. without the use of physical force? I believe so, provided the Palestinian economy continues to be unable to stand alone (a given, I think).
Gaza and the West Bank are turning into wastelands, and its members are unable to reverse it. Hopefully, they will then go elsewhere.

As long as I am on this hypothetical train of hypothetical thought, what would the international response be? Is it moral to let them starve themselves out?

[Mediocrates]

No one wants them which is how they wound up Israel's problem in the first place. After 1967 Egypt and Jordan didn't give up territory. They outsourced a population of their own underclass. They simply had no need for an angry poor group of Palestinians and gave them away to the Israelis. Even today in most of ARAB world, Palestinians, 2, 3, 4 generations living there are NOT given citzenship and are classified as 'refugees' who can be and are often expelled on a whim. So if they left, where would they go? Belgium? England? Detriot?

[genghis_tom]

No one wants them which is how they wound up Israel's problem in the first place. After 1967 Egypt and Jordan didn't give up territory. They outsourced a population of their own underclass.
Palis were there before 67. Why then did Egypt, Jordan, and Syria fight against Israel?
They gave up their 3rd holiest site.

They simply had no need for an angry poor group of Palestinians and gave them away to the Israelis. Even today in most of ARAB world, Palestinians, 2, 3, 4 generations living there are NOT given citzenship and are classified as 'refugees' who can be and are often expelled on a whim. Expelled to where?
Do you have a source on that citizenship thing?
So if they left, where would they go? Belgium? England? Detriot?
Somewhere with gas supply, somewhere with wages, somewhere they can pursue life and liberty (which certainly isn't Israel).
I don't know where they would go. If they go, it's not my, your, or Israel's problem.

[SteveMetch]

All Arabs living in historic Israel should be offered citizenship (after a probation period) in the Modern world, if they publicly denounce Islam and its Prophet (May P*** and S*** be upon him) and start to practice anything else.

Any person who would rather subject their family and/or themselves to the poor conditions in Gaza and WB for Islam deserves what they get. If their own Islamic brothers won’t take them what does that say about Islam?

Given Sodom and Gomorrah we know that G-d requires and extremely low number of innocents before he executes is wraith. Let’s save innocents in the Gaza and WB so he can work his magic. Just look away so you won’t be turned into pillars of salt.

[CoinToss]

Hopefully, they will then go elsewhere.
Are you joking ?
Jordan aka 'true Palestine' refuse the entry of the least palestinian onto its ground.
Abdullah of Jordan aka 'the prince from SA' don't want the palestinians to overcome his illegitimate power.

[genghis_tom]

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/95/poll20c.html
as of 1995
"Most Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip believe that the political relations between the PNA and both the Egyptian and Jordanian governments are strong, while most rate its relations with the Syrian government as bad. In Jordan, more than 89% of the respondents feel that PNA-Jordan relations are strong. In addition, 59% feel that PNA-Egypt relations are strong. This compares with 33.9% who say that PNA-Syria relations are strong (Table 17). "

[genghis_tom]

"Most Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip believe that the political relations between the PNA and both the Egyptian and Jordanian governments are strong, while most rate its relations with the Syrian government as bad. In Jordan, more than 89% of the respondents feel that PNA-Jordan relations are strong. In addition, 59% feel that PNA-Egypt relations are strong. This compares with 33.9% who say that PNA-Syria relations are strong (Table 17). "
So I was right about Jordan, just not Syria.

[genghis_tom]

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/jointpoll/joint1a.html

This is a poll from 1997.

On the whole, I doubt attitudes since then have drastically changed to what you all say they are.

[genghis_tom]

I was trying to find something more recent, and found this.
pdf (http://www.unidir.org/pdf/articles/pdf-art71.pdf)
I didn't read most of it, just the stuff under the heading "JORDAN" and found this particular statement.
"While there are signs of Palestinian-Jordanian tension, they are not at the point of conflict and are less visible at the end of 2000 because of solidarity towards the Palestinian intifada."

If anyone can find any polls, etc. about Palestinian/Jordanian relations, more recent than 2001, please post them

[Firstresponder]

Starving the Palestinians out?

Wow, if that is not an example of racial cleansing I'm not sure what would qualify. No, I'm not making any Holocaust comparisions, but the idea of putting Palestinian women and children on a "diet" is pretty sickening to me. Where are the Jewish morals that we are supposed to be espousing?

[Firstresponder]

Is it moral to let them starve themselves out?


Answer to Genghis Tom: NO!!!

[KettleWhistle]

There is nothing immoral with starving out the enemy. And Fakestinians are not a race, so there is nothing "racist" there. They are our enemy like the Germans were in WWII. But people like yourself would've probably happily helped feed them as well, no?

[Ariksan]

Starving the Palestinians out?

Wow, if that is not an example of racial cleansing I'm not sure what would qualify. No, I'm not making any Holocaust comparisions, but the idea of putting Palestinian women and children on a "diet" is pretty sickening to me. Where are the Jewish morals that we are supposed to be espousing?

They themselve are putting themselves on a diet if they spend their money on weapons rather than on improving their infrastructure, build farms or buy food. Everyone who feeds them also enables them to spend their money on weapons. The Arabs of Gaza, Judea and Samaria are getting the highest per capita foreign help in the whole history of foreign assistance - clearly this policy has utterly failed.

[genghis_tom]

This brings Israel to a dilemma. Is it more immoral or neutral to cut off aid to Palestinians?
It could be more of a neutral act, if only because the Palestinian Hamas government is outspokenly hostile to Israel. It is not Israel's responsibility to support Arabs who are not Israeli citizens.
It could be more immoral. Think of the good samaritan. Would he have helped the Jew if the Jew fought back/refused help? Probably yes.

I myself am leaning more towards the neutral end, because I think that any aid given will not be appreciated, only reinforce/support animosity and violence toward Israel.

[minusthejihad]

Starving the Palestinians out?

Wow, if that is not an example of racial cleansing I'm not sure what would qualify. No, I'm not making any Holocaust comparisions, but the idea of putting Palestinian women and children on a "diet" is pretty sickening to me. Where are the Jewish morals that we are supposed to be espousing?

Who is we? I assume that you are Jewish then? Do you also think "we" should all agree on everything?

Do you think that the Palestinian people who voted in the terrorist group Hamas and their leaders bare no responsibility at all for their situation? Do you think they should go on threatenting to annihilate Israel, shoot daily Kassams at Israeli towns, and attempt to cross the border to murder innocent Israels, and in return Israelis should feed and clothe these people? Is that what you propose?

[Mediocrates]

This brings Israel to a dilemma. Is it more immoral or neutral to cut off aid to Palestinians?
It could be more of a neutral act, if only because the Palestinian Hamas government is outspokenly hostile to Israel. It is not Israel's responsibility to support Arabs who are not Israeli citizens.
It could be more immoral. Think of the good samaritan. Would he have helped the Jew if the Jew fought back/refused help? Probably yes.

I myself am leaning more towards the neutral end, because I think that any aid given will not be appreciated, only reinforce/support animosity and violence toward Israel.



I think that keeping them in a state of infantile dependency is not ethical. It's the upside of slavery.

[Leon]

This brings Israel to a dilemma. Is it more immoral or neutral to cut off aid to Palestinians?


Its certainly not immoral. Far from it.

On the contrary it would be absolutley and entirley immoral to continue giving them aid - 'Israel funds used for terror' (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3251982,00.html)

Former PA chairman Yasser Arafat purchased arms worth millions of dollars transferred to the PA by Israel and the international community, an interrogation of a PA security funds manager, Fuad Shubaki, has found.

Jewish blood is on the hands of the Israeli government and Jewish organisations who have funded these murderers.

[Leon]

Answer to Genghis Tom: NO!!!

clearly giving them aid and throwing money at their feet has proven immoral and quite dangerous for everyone involved, including the Palestinian people.

[genghis_tom]

Its certainly not immoral. Far from it.
On the contrary it would be absolutley and entirley immoral to continue giving them aid - 'Israel funds used for terror' (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3251982,00.html)
Former PA chairman Yasser Arafat purchased arms worth millions of dollars transferred to the PA by Israel and the international community, an interrogation of a PA security funds manager, Fuad Shubaki, has found.
Jewish blood is on the hands of the Israeli government and Jewish organisations who have funded these murderers.
Good points, but how do you think this will work?:
http://www.mmorning.com/articleC.asp?Article=3569&CategoryID=6
"But the EU and the US have been seeking ways to get money to needy Palestinians without putting cash into the hands of the Hamas-led administration."

[genghis_tom]

I think that keeping them in a state of infantile dependency is not ethical. It's the upside of slavery.
I don't quite understand your analogy. This state of slavery they are in: do you mean in servitude to their government, or as dependents to Israeli/Western "masters" ?
Whose are they?

[Mediocrates]

I don't quite understand your analogy. This state of slavery they are in: do you mean in servitude to their government, or as dependents to Israeli/Western "masters" ?
Whose are they?


It's simple - The Israelis have been 'doing for' them for decades. When will they figure out that the Palestinians have to manage on their own baby step by baby step. When/If there is an independent Palestinian entity do the Palestinians think that none of their public sector services will be delivered from or by the Palestnians themselves? Powerplants and post offices don't spring up overnight from the Freedom Fairy, do they? Yet we're supposed to believe that the low expectations we have of the Palestinians is somehow a kindness? It's really a prejudice.

[genghis_tom]

It's simple - The Israelis have been 'doing for' them for decades. When will they figure out that the Palestinians have to manage on their own baby step by baby step.
I still hesitate to attach the slavery label to the situation. I agree that aid is wrong, but I'm still confused as to why Israel does it. Is it to wean them to the point of irreversible dependency and so, as a result, utter failure to be capable of independence (when and if)? Is it to avoid ticking other Arab nations off (look at the cruelty Israel subjects Palestinians to!)? Is it just the easiest thing to do to get Palestinians out of their hair?
I vote for number one.

When/If there is an independent Palestinian entity do the Palestinians think that none of their public sector services will be delivered from or by the Palestnians themselves? Powerplants and post offices don't spring up overnight from the Freedom Fairy, do they?
No. Grazers can't become industrials overnight.
Powerplants spring up from the UN Fairies. (dual meaning alert!)
Anything Palestinians want will come, because of the influence the OPEC Fairy has over the other international organization fairies.
By the way, Medio, do Arabs even believe in the Freedom Fairy?

Yet we're supposed to believe that the low expectations we have of the Palestinians is somehow a kindness? It's really a prejudice.
It's a reality. What is anyone in the middle east (excluding Israel) without oil? Once oil is obsolete, the world is going to have to give aid to the Middle East for them to survive.

[genghis_tom]

Apartheid, is it? :rolleyes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1778714,00.html

[Mediocrates]

Just be clear: Begg was held at Gitmo and is a coauthor of a book about his imprisonment. Kasrils is a Soviet trained communist who fought SA army, police and civilians with terrorism. He also fought in Angola and Congo. Brittain has written several books about Gitmo, South Africa and about Angola from the Communist PoV.

[genghis_tom]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19186882-23109,00.html

Don't do it, Olmert. Give an inch and they'll take a mile...
For all anyone knows, the money is used to get injured terrorists back into the field.

On the other hand, is it immoral to bypass Hamas to give money straight to health services? No, for the sake of civilians.