Israel's dependence on Evangelical money

[Muslima]

This should have been posted here, and not in the "Anti-Semitism" thread, which i posted to accidentally,
Sorry.

-------
I was wondering why do the Israeli's who oppose Evangelical support, or rather Israel's dependence on Evangelical money, object to it? The Op-Ed below by Mina Fenton about the IFCJ, doesn't really give a clear reason for it's objections, other than a desire that Israel should be independant.
It's understandable that a country want's to be independant and not rely on anyone else, but other than this is there any other reason? Some other points which come to mind after reading what she had to say could be summed up as follows:

1. What strings come attached with Evangelical support? Do they make any demands other than try to convert?

2. Jews don't believe in the same end time prophecies as the Evangelical's so why should this part bother Israel? If you don't believe in it, then it won't happen according to your beliefs, so why is their religious belief a problem?

3. Those who object to Evangelical support, don't mind being American aid recipients. Why the double standard? If they don't mind American aid, then why object to another American body supporting them?

4. If the Arab states, were not hostile/enemies, or if they accepted Israel and made peace, would this Evangelical support be less welcome? or the same? or rejected? What i'm saying is are the two issues related? or to put it another way, is the state of war forcing Israel to accept whatever support it get's anywhere?

5 A spin off from 4......If diaspora Jews were more supportive of Israel (financially) would this have any bearing on Israel accepting Evangelical money? The apathy of the diaspora Jewry in not being as supportive (financially) of Israel as strongly as they could, may well be another reason. A lot or most of them give more towards other causes rather than support Israeli ones.

6. How do you (reader) feel about this support? in particular, I'd like to hear what the Jewish diaspora or Israeli members here have to say to the 6 points above. By the way, do we have any Israeli Christian or Israeli Muslim's here? If so, it would be interesting to hear what you have to say too.

http://www.arutzsheva.org/news.php3?id=104652
Councilwoman Against Israeli Dependence on Evangelical Money
16:10 May 31, '06 / 4 Sivan 5766
by Hillel Fendel


Jerusalem City Councilwoman Mina Fenton (NRP) has written a powerful letter against the increasing dependency by Local Government on the International Fellowship of Christian and Jews (IFCJ).


Fenton is a member of the National Religious Party and is the Chairperson of the Council for the Advancement of Women's Status in Jerusalem. Her letter blasts the influx and growing influence of Christian Evangelical money - and specifically the IFCJ, headed by Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein - in 100 local and municipal councils throughout Israel:

"As a member of the Jerusalem City Council, I received an invitation to the Second Local Government Convention, under the sponsorship of (or dependence on) the IFCJ, in Tel Aviv University, May 30-31. The convention, entitled, "From Dependence to Independence in Local Government," is a contradiction in terms. Holding such a convention under the sponsorship/dependence of Evangelical money certainly does not lead to independence...

The IFCJ is a private body with its own interests, which is penetrating into the institutions of power in the country, with hundreds of millions of dollars being transferred to the Welfare Ministry, local municipal welfare offices, associations, and more.

The IFCJ takes pride in its takeover of the welfare institutions in the country via the Welfare Ministry and municipal councils. It has succeeded in penetrating some 100 municipal councils; all the evidence and data are found in the IFCJ's announcements.

The Wednesday morning session of the convention is billed as, "Buckling Under the Burden - Welfare in a Changing Reality (under the sponsorship of the IFCJ)." What does this mean? Are the convention planners telling us that this "Friendship Fund" is the one that will take responsibility for providing solutions for the welfare budgetary problems in the country's difficult and changing reality? Will the Evangelists set a new public agenda for us? Will they determine how much the current welfare laws apply to the changing social reality in Israel?

This is a take-over, creating a dependency. We must remember: "He who'll pay, has the say." Dependence has a price!

Ruth Sinai, writing in Haaretz on Jan. 7, 2006, notes, "It is hard to find a single local council in this country that is not supported by loyal American Christians, via the IFCJ. In four years of the fund's activity in Israel, it has become the leading philanthropic organization in the country."

Sinai quotes Adi Eldar, Mayor of Carmiel and Chairman of the Local Government Center (who himself receives funding from the IFCJ for Carmiel and makes sure that others get as well - M.F.), who said, "The Fund supports the weaker members of society in place of the State [emphasis in the original]..."

Sinai further details the municipal council activities: "Staff from the Fund hold advisory meetings with the Welfare Ministry and local municipal employees regarding goals and criteria."

Well then, who is in charge of welfare in this country? Who determines policy? Who is in charge of whom? Who is responsible? Who is dependent? Who at all is independent?!? And especially when the local government strengthens and eternalizes a private entity and grants it power and legitimacy."

Sinai notes that some cities, such as [the hareidi cities] Beitar and Emanuel, find it difficult to accept the source of the donations and do not request assistance from the Fund...

What a disgrace it is for the Jewish sovereign state in the Land of Israel, that frees itself of its basic obligation to be concerned for the welfare of its citizens, and encourages the receipt of money that is fatal from two standpoints: It is Christian Evangelical money that endangers the Jewish existence, and it is directed towards creating dependence..."

Fenton also writes that the money comes from millions of Evangelicals who give the money because of their religious beliefs about the end of times - which do not include Jews as we know them today.

IFCJ head Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein denies this, citing a poll showing that only 28% of the donors do so because of their religious "End of Times" beliefs. However, his own PR movies tell a different story. The film "On Wings of Eagles" shows montages of Yitzak Rabin and Yasser Arafat shaking hands in Oslo in 1994 together with images of the Twin Towers crumbling down, with a narrator intoning, "The mosaic of events we see happening today is like a gigantic jigsaw puzzle with the pieces beginning to form the exact picture foretold by the prophets."

Eckstein is then seen standing on a mountaintop, saying, "You can see the pieces of the puzzle that are coming together" - apparently referring to the pieces of the Christian-religious puzzle.

The acceptance of Evangelical money has been the subject of various Halakhic [Jewish legal] rulings, though an unambiguous stance has not yet been formulated. Some say it is forbidden to take any money, some say it is permitted, and others say it may be used only to fund non-educational causes. Among those in the forefront of the opposition to accepting such money are Rabbi Simcha HaCohen Kook of Rehovot and Rabbi Shlomo Aviner of Beit El.

[Illuminatus]

1) Is this a sweeping generalization about the State of Israel, the nation or
is this just an opinion from a local councilwoman and local municipal governments?

2) Regarding her actual complaint, can she influence the Jerusalem municipality in passing a city ordinance that can make it illegal to accept any donations from Christians or at least return (immediately) any donations made?

Almost three years ago, at the height of the Muslim mass-homicide bombings in Israel and before the security fence was built, appeals for donations, prayers and support for the victims of Islamo-terrorism was quite common in thousands (upon thousands) of Baptist churches here in the US.

The appeals have kind of died down with Israel's current economic boom *6.6 percent GDP rise in the first quarter of 2006*, records level of global investments and the highest influx of tourists from around the world in years
(I think most historians will point out that it was actually the sustained IDF/military victories that turned things around).

Still in the end, free people living in free nations (in this case, a city) are free not accept free money.

[Muslima]

I've never seen a thread here with only one reply. :eek:

Hey people,
Can all of you knights and " knightsesses" in shining armour (or RUSTING armour as the case my be for those who don't qualify;) )hasten to the rescue?? This damsel of a thread needs rescuing, from the dubious honour of being the least popular thread! Thank you all in advance.

(Tears roll down my cheeks)

[Ricky]

Naturally it is perfectly legal for Israeli institutions to accept donations from groups of all world outlooks. Still as an Israeli who likes to consider himself a person of liberal views, I feel particulary uncomfortable about accepting from donations from people who are considered "gay bashers and anti- abortionists".
But in general I feel somewhat suspicious of great philo-semites. What is so special about us that should bring about such great feelings of empathy and love? Why are we so much more worthy of admiration than Indians, Eskimos, Africans and many other ethnic groups in the world?
Actually, as far as Evangicals are concerned, I know the answer. These people believe that by holding the occupied territories, we facilitate the second coming of Jesus, after which all we Jews will either convert to Christianity or we shall die. I wonder what will be the attitude of these people to Israel when Israel withdraws from the vast areas she occupies at the moment, and presumably will set back the second coming for a long peiriod to come

[MGB8]

If Evangelicals want to support Israel that is their right, and all help is welcomed and accepted with gratitude. There is a fear that the help comes with strings attached... that it is not donation, but instead attempts at control. But, so far, that has not been the case.

Also, Evangelicals have not been pushing conversion of the Jews for a while (some groups do, but mainstream not really at all.)

Other things - the Arabs, etc.... somewhat irrelevant. Of course, Arab peace would greatly reduce Israel's financial needs, so donations might be refused in the spirit of "others could use the money much more."

[Mil]

Once a upon a time in the history of the Jewish people there comes a group of people who openly embrace and offer help to Jews in the most peaceful manner possible. And us, Jews, instead of embracing these people as our friends we instead are putting are idiotic principles of morality first. Screw THAT!!!!

[Cato]

Evangelicals have a right to invest in Israel, it profits them and us, while hurting nobody.

This council woman ought to be telling voters what they need to here instead of trying to stir up images of the evil Evangelical Crusader.

Ricky

The Evangelicals believe that when Christ comes back all Jews will follow him. Besides they believe they have a religious obligation to help Jews, and Israel, so consider yourself as helping them practice their religion.

Illuminations

Yes people in free countries/cities are free not to accept money, however Jerusalem does have serious problems so why not accept a helping hand?

Muslima

I don't see anything to talk about here. The Jerusalem Municipality works with friendly christians wether that woman likes it or not. There are no strings attached, and besides everyone is allowed to invest in Israel.

[Mercury]

Anyone has an idea how much money is actually involved?

[Ricky]

i don't really have a disagreement with MGB8, MIL and CATO.
I accept that Israel has the right to receive donations from any sources who are willing to help. However as a person of a liberal persuasion I feel very uncomfortable about being befriended by gay bashers and anti abortionists.
In addition, I do suggest that Israel be wary of these Evalgelical supporters. I wonder how much they will support us if the disengagement plan goes into effect and will thus put a spanner in the works for a Second Coming materialising soon

[Illuminatus]

1) You "feel very uncomfortable".

2) You are concern that support would drop if "the disengagement plan" goes into effect and it delays or thwarts "The Second Coming". Thus delaying the end of the world.

..........anything else?

donating monthly to the guys over at aish.com, funny - they don't seem the bit concerned.

Signed: Nutcase Evangelical Baptist Neo-Con Republican from the cornfields of Middle-America (a.k.a. Illuminatus)

: )

[Ricky]

From your signature, Illuminatus, I understand that you are an evangical. So I ask you directly- will you still give unswerving support to Israel if Israel gives up 90% of J&S, which is the ambition of Prime Minister Olmert?

[Muslima]

Thanks for the responses everyone,

[Muslima]

Illuminatus, and other evangelicals'

Ricky's last point reminded me of something, about the end time prophecies.

It's well known what Evangelical's believe about the end times, yet when asked, either by Jews or other's they say they don't believe that Jews will all be killed or converted.

So why are 2 big differences of opinion? What do you believe about the end times exactly, and why is it always denied? If it is not true, then how did this belief come about?

[Illuminatus]

In ISLAM

The Last Day (Qiyamah)

The last verse of chapter 31 (Luqman) of the Quran deals with Knowledge of the Final Hour.

[.. Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour, and He sends down the rain, and He knows what is in the wombs. And no one knows what he will earn on the morrow. And no one knows in what land he will die. Surely Allah is Knowing, Aware. ..] (31:34)

The Purpose of Christ's Coming Jesus (Isa) will return to over-throw al-Dajjal in the battle of 'Aqabat Afiq' in Syria, or at the Lud gate in Jerusalem according to another account. Jesus will "kill all pigs and break all crosses", confirming Islam as the only true religion. After 40 years Jesus will die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina (Islam teaches that Jesus didn't die in A.D. 33 but has been in a state of "suspended animation" since)

JUDAISM

The Messiah will defeat the gentile nations (Zech 14:10) and restore the kingdom of Israel (Zech 14). The Jews in exile will return and rule in an age of spiritual harmony (Zech 14:5). Isaiah 42:6 will be fulfilled and God will be recognized as the universal king (Zech 14:9).

CHRISTIANITY

Jesus will come to rescue Israel, defeat the Antichrist (Rev. 19:11-21), judge the nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and the wicked in Israel (Ezek. 20:33-38), and rule over the messianic kingdom (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:1-6)

However, I have it on authority (as the great Beer-God himself: Lord Big Keg Brewster revealed to me) - that the End Times (or The Second Coming or The Last Days or The Great Poof) that all three are wrong.

The Prophecies will not be revealed until the Cleveland Browns (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/) win the SuperBowl. "Disengagement plan" or no ""Disengagement plan.

There is no hope or repentance possible to those of the "liberal persuasion". Sorry 'bout that.

[Muslima]

In ISLAM

The Last Day (Qiyamah)

The last verse of chapter 31 (Luqman) of the Quran deals with Knowledge of the Final Hour

"Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour, and He sends down the rain, and He knows what is in the wombs. And no one knows what he will earn on the morrow. And no one knows in what land he will die. Surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." (31:34)

The Purpose of Christ's Coming Jesus (Isa) will return to over-throw al-Dajjal in the battle of 'Aqabat Afiq' in Syria, or at the Lud gate in Jerusalem according to another account. Jesus will "kill all pigs and break all crosses", confirming Islam as the only true religion. After 40 years Jesus will die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina (Islam teaches that Jesus didn't die in A.D. 33 but has been in a state of "suspended animation" since)
.

Sorry but you have it wrong,
The verse from the Quran above has nothing absolutely to do with your second paragaraph about the coming of the Christ. But i have seen Evangelicals distort it badly, no doubt you picked up the above from one such site!

Yom al Qiyamah will be after The Christ has completed his mission, according to Islamic beliefs. His rule will be a golden age for humanity, and will last for 40 years.

Oh and when the Messiah (Christ) comes , the whole world will be monotheistic:)

[Muslima]

In ISLAM


CHRISTIANITY

Jesus will come to rescue Israel, defeat the Antichrist (Rev. 19:11-21), judge the nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and the wicked in Israel (Ezek. 20:33-38), and rule over the messianic kingdom (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:1-6)

However, I have it on authority (as the great Beer-God himself: Lord Big Keg Brewster revealed to me) - that the End Times (or The Second Coming or The Last Days or The Great Poof) that all three are wrong.

The Prophecies will not be revealed until the Cleveland Browns (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/) win the SuperBowl. "Disengagement plan" or no ""Disengagement plan.

However, there is no hope or repentance possible to those with of the "liberal persuasion".

Illumanatis,

Thanks for your answer even tho the Islamic part was wrong;)

But you didn't answer my questions. How does the "Jews will be converted or killed" fit into all this? Do some Evangelicals believe this? if so what percentage?

Also, for the Evangelicals who believe neither will happen, do they believe that The King Messiah will "rescue" the Jews and then rule over them? even though he is another religion to the Jews? Will the Jews accept his rule according to your beliefs? and why would they accept him in his second coming if they didn't in his first?

Please explain this.

SteveMetch, can you answer this too. Thank you.

[Illuminatus]

Question for you:

Where in any post in this thread did the quote:

[..Jews will be converted or killed. .] Come from?

I see that it may have come from only your own imagination or brought in from elsewhere -- Link?

If you want to honestly discuss the matter, you can start by not being deceptive. Else, this thread makes for one good joke.

Go Browns!

[Muslima]

Question for you:

Where in any post in this thread did the quote:

[..Jews will be converted or killed. .] Come from?

I see that it may have come from only your own imagination or brought in from elsewhere -- Link?

If you want to honestly discuss the matter, you can start by not being deceptive. Else, this thread makes for one good joke.

Go Browns!

Yes honestly discuss the matter, that's why i raised it.

I can find links if you really want me to, though that would only make sense if you have never heard this before????

As for it not being mentioned in the thread, what did this euphism mean in the first article i posted
"Fenton also writes that the money comes from millions of Evangelicals who give the money because of their religious beliefs about the end of times - which do not include Jews as we know them today. "

Thus, it makes sense to ask, the questions i did my previous post, if you believe neither will happen.

[Illuminatus]

Muslima asks: [. what did this euphism (euphemism?) mean in the first article i posted ? .]Fenton also writes that the money comes from millions of Evangelicals who give the money because of their religious beliefs about the end of times - which do not include Jews as we know them today.

Answer: That quote is neither a "euphism" nor does it imply in any shape, meaning or form to mean "Jews will be converted or killed" which btw, comes only from Muslima's personal imagination (oh! and btw, can you please give a percentage?).

-- The councilwomen thinks that there are "religious beliefs about the end of times" that "do not include Jews"

-- Muslima runs with that thinking and conveniently concludes that "some Evangelicals believe (..) that Jews will be converted or killed".

.....talk 'bout an overly vivid imagination......heh! (or is it some fantasy?)

best regards

[Muslima]

Muslima asks: [. what did this euphism (euphemism?) mean in the first article i posted ? .]

Answer: That quote is neither a "euphism" nor does it imply in any shape, meaning or form to mean "Jews will be converted or killed" which btw, comes only from Muslima's personal imagination (oh! and btw, can you please give a percentage?).

-- The councilwomen thinks that there are "religious beliefs about the end of times" that "do not include Jews"

-- Muslima runs with that thinking and conveniently concludes that "some Evangelicals believe (..) that Jews will be converted or killed".

.....talk 'bout an overly vivid imagination......heh! (or is it some fantasy?)

best regards

You didn't answer any of my points Illuminatus, please give an ILLUMINATING answer to:
Also, for the Evangelicals who believe neither will happen, do they believe that The King Messiah will "rescue" the Jews and then rule over them? even though he is another religion to the Jews? Will the Jews accept his rule according to your beliefs? and why would they accept him in his second coming if they didn't in his first?

Also are you saying the "convert or be killed" is a lie? If so where did it originate?


SteveMetch i'm waiting for your contributiion to this thread. Thank you.

[Illuminatus]

Let me be blunt.

You have yet to established an ounce of credibity, clarity or honestly in this thread. Therefore your real motives are allowed to be suspect.

Muslima asks:

[.. are you saying the "convert or be killed" is a lie? ..]

Answer: I did NOT say or imply that it was lie - I did say AND meant to implied that the quote, and where is comes from is yours alone. There can be no honet discussions when one side is being dishonest.
-----

And now for Muslima's real and ultimate motives.

The dream, hope and prayer of today's Muslims world is the destruction of Israel.

In mosques around the world, in widespread Islamic teachings and in the belief systems among the world's 1.6 billion Muslism -- there exists the acceptance that Israel is the number one reason for why the vast majority of Muslims live, breath and die in the 3rd and 4th world sewage of poverty, decline, hopelessness and despair.

The economic, political, social, educational, scientific and technological decay and defeat of the 57 nations that make up the OIC ( http://www.oic-oci.org/english/main/member-States.htm ) is proof positive of the absolute failure of islamo-Fascist ideology.

You (and Islam) believe that if only Israel was gone - a United Ummah will re-enter the glorious halls and palaces of the great golden age of the 12th century.

For whatever the reason, the perception is held in the Muslim world that it is US power, loans and money along with Evangelical-Christian "zeal" (and donations) that is the power behind Israel's existance. Decouple this relationship and Muslima and her kind truly expect to see the fall of Israel.

The Islamic World has been in an historic decline for about 300 years which accelated when Ataturk buried the Khalifah in 1924.

If you are searching for the reasons and solutions for why the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims remain in the 3rd and 4th world -- Truth and moral clarity suggests that you and the Ummah look in the mirror first.

and only then can you start an honest (and believable) thread in IsraelForum.com

best regards

[Muslima]

Let me be blunt.

You have yet to established an ounce of credibity, clarity or honestly in this thread. Therefore your real motives are allowed to be suspect.

It's a shame you can't read with an open mind, and instead convince yourself there are "suspicious" circumstances regarding this thread.


what's the matter ? is the subject controversial? That is why i opened it in the first place. Because it is a controversial subject.


Muslima asks:

[.. are you saying the "convert or be killed" is a lie? ..]

Answer: I did NOT say or imply that it was lie - I did say AND meant to implied that the quote, and where is comes from is yours alone. There can be no honet discussions when one side is being dishonest.

What exactly is your point? I'm lying about what? What am i dishonest about? Are you saying i plucked this out of thin air? I will post some links in the next post.
-----

And now for Muslima's real and ultimate motives.

The dream, hope and prayer of today's Muslims world is the destruction of Israel.

Sorry but your fantasy is way out of order. Stick to subject please. Your "ulterior motive" is in your psyche only. No need to get defensive like i said earlier. I was addressing you personally, when i said "you". I meant the generally held beliefs




You (and Islam) believe that if only Israel was gone - a United Ummah will re-enter the glorious halls and palaces of the great golden age of the 12th century.


The future Caliphate has nothing to do with Israel.

For whatever the reason, the perception is held in the Muslim world that it is US power, loans and money along with Evangelical-Christian "zeal" (and donations) that is the power behind Israel's existance. Decouple this relationship and Muslima and her kind truly expect to see the fall of Israel.

Don't delude yourself about US power or even more hilarious about Evangelist power. You're not talking to a fool here. And don't attempt to change the subject here. The subject isn't about Israel's fall.

The Islamic World has been in an historic decline for about 300 years which accelated when Ataturk buried the Khalifah in 1924.

So?
If you are searching for the reasons and solutions for why the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims remain in the 3rd and 4th world -- Truth and moral clarity suggests that you and the Ummah look in the mirror first.

No i'm not looking for the reasons, but if you're so convinced about it's decline you wouldn't be raising this issue or crying about it. Or do you deep down know that it will rise and refuse to voice your fear? No worries, i understand the pshycology behind your rhetoric.


best regards

best regards too,

Oh and if you can't or wont' answer the simple questions i asked, then don't get defensive or use silly tricks to divert attention.

The Arab/Jew conflict has nothing to do with this subject. You merely used it to hide behind what you didn't like.

[Muslima]

Illumanatis, see below for the "convert or be killed" or call it "Armagaddon"

and more questions, even though none have been answered so far:

How widespread is the belief below? what percentage believe this?



Emunah of America.
http://www.emunah.org/magazine_comments.php?id=78_0_4_0_C
Christian Support for Israel
by Judy Lash Balint

Still, what concerns some Jewish observers is that end-of-days scenarios derived from Biblical interpretation, not love of the Jewish people, motivate Christian support of Israel. According to this view, these Christians want to see the Jews return to Israel so that the final battle of Armageddon can proceed. In this scenario, two thirds of the Jews are killed, Jesus returns to life and the remaining Jews convert to Christianity. [/COLOR]


“They don’t love the real Jewish people,” notes Jerusalem author Gershom Gorenberg, an outspoken critic of the Christian Right: “They love us as characters in their play, and that’s not who we are. We never auditioned for that part, and the play is not one that ends up good for us.”


Others argue that Christians can believe what they want, since things won’t happen that way in any event, so why spurn Christian support over a hypothetical theological difference of opinion? Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz takes it one notch further when he asserts that “an explicit campaign is under way, by the Christian Right, to establish Christianity as the official religion of America…to convert Jews, or, at the very least, to relegate them to second class status.”

[Illuminatus]

Whenever ulterior motives are exposed - the dishonest tend to immediately "cut to the chase". Well done Muslima!
------

Read (no, really read) the entire article and the conclusion by Judy Lash Balint ( not just the selected passages that make you and other Islamists smile ).

You totally misread her, deliberately picked selected paragraphs completely out of context and obviously misuderstood her writing style.

Her final paragraph harpoons your wishful thinking.

quote:

[.. In the end, Christian support for Israel is based as much on an understanding of Israel’s role as US ally and upholder of common values as it is on religious fundamentalism.

The bottom line is that Christian Zionists believe that Israel exists because G-d intended it to—a belief shared no less by Jewish Zionists. ..]

The bottom line and in the end.....

You may lock and close the thread now.

Have a nice day : )

[CLL1709]

The lord Jesus Christ was a Jew. That is all most evangelical and thinking Christians need to remember, and to turn to scripture on how to treat Israel and her people.

Those like the World Council of Churches heretics have placed their own interpretations of scripture before the word of God. They use an old European idea that their own churches and ideologies replace God's directives. As with most intellectuals they are blind to spiritual realities and truth set forth in scripture. Their arrogance is heretical.

[SteveMetch]

Illumanatis,

Thanks for your answer even tho the Islamic part was wrong;)

But you didn't answer my questions. How does the "Jews will be converted or killed" fit into all this? Do some Evangelicals believe this? if so what percentage?

Also, for the Evangelicals who believe neither will happen, do they believe that The King Messiah will "rescue" the Jews and then rule over them? even though he is another religion to the Jews? Will the Jews accept his rule according to your beliefs? and why would they accept him in his second coming if they didn't in his first?

Please explain this.

SteveMetch, can you answer this too. Thank you.

The Jewish/Christian theology is fundamentally based on the concept of salvation. Salvation is defined as being sufficiently compatible with Yahweh in order to join him in heaven. Since Allah is “dissimilar” with mankind this is impossible in Islamic theology. Another dissimilarity is that in Jewish/Christian theology it’s Satan that will torture you in Hell in Islam it is Allah. Given what Allah wants us to do to be “good” Muslims its hard to tell the difference.

As foretold in the Jewish scriptures one would come that would expand Yahweh’s covenant of salvation to the Gentiles (non-Jews). Christians obviously believe that person is Christ. This new convent with Gentiles in no way invalidates the Jewish birth right covenant but rather expands Yahweh’s plan of salvation to all of mankind. As such the Jews are perfectly fine where they are through adherence with their birth right covenant with G-d.

Muslims on the other hand have beliefs that are completely at odds with everything Yahweh has instructed. As a point of fact Mohammed violates every one of the 10 commandments many times over. What is so damming is that despite this Mohammed is further held up as the best example of a Muslim. The Angel that spoke to Mohammed denied everything the Jesus taught, a clear sign/warning made 500 years before Mohammed to Christians, of the Anti-Christ. Even all the lore surrounding the 12 Imam sounds a lot like what Christian believe the Anti-Christ will look like.

You ask why true Christians support Jews it’s because Yahweh has explicitly indicated he will curse those who curse the Jews and bless those who help them.

I find it very interesting just how cursed Muslim, Nazis, Communist, and other assorted Jew Haters have faired vs. those who support and defend the right of Jews to live in “all” of Historic Israel. America is one of the most blessed nations on the face of earth and the Muslims among the most cursed. I wonder why that is? As far as I’m concerned having the Jews hold onto only 1% of the Middle East is more than equitable, the Muslim’s can have the other 99% of the Middle East.

Christian support has nothing to do with the second coming, a process that will be initiated by the anti-Christ once he feels his forces are in place. It is foretold that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before the anti-Christ comes. Leveling the dome of the rock and rebuilding the Jewish Temple would be a good way to get all those Anti-Christ followers whipped-up into a frenzy don’t you think? What do you think would be the average reaction of the average Muslim if the Jews did that? Sounds like the prophecy doesn’t it?

Do you have any doubt about which side the Muslim are actually on in this conflict between Good and Evil?

By the way the Bible has not been corrupted maybe you should read it some time. You might learn something. I have learned volumes by reading the Koran and Hadiths. Some of the explicitly described violence endorsed by Mohammed and Allah is hard to get out of ones mind at times. Maybe that is why I have so little tolerance for those who defend Islam and all its barbaric baggage. I have the same problem with those who defend Racist Fascism and Communism.

I’m kind of funny that way being so intolerant of intolerant ideologies after all.

[MGB8]

I strongly disagree with the opinion that Judaism is based strongly on salvation. That is a Christian thing.

Judaism is much more about the idea of a covenant - a promise or contract.

G-d promised certain things, if the Jews would do certain things in return - fullfill a certain role, obey his commandments. Each individual Jew is so judged - but it is not about salvation or the afterlife, as merely being in G-d's good graces - living up to the contract.

[1.5 million]

Woah – covering a lot of ground here and there is so much I could and would like to comment on but I’ll do my best to keep it brief.

Evangelical support for Israel – Of course, Israel – in its situation will take any help it can get – as would any nation or people in her situation. Obviously Christian evangelicals have a concept for what Israel means that goes beyond a mere state or people in need – however Gershom Gorenberg’s concerns (as well as Alan Dershowitz’s are entirely valid I think). I have a very good friend who is charismatic (a stripe of evangelical) Christian (and is very well informed/knowledgeable regarding his particular Christian perspective and the biblical (new and old testament) foundations for such. We have discussed the issue of what the coming of Christ and Christianity means for the Jews at length. I would contend that his views regarding the message/meaning of Jesus as the messiah and what his coming (ie. means for salvation) portends for Jews/Judaism are certainly at odds with views held by most all Jews. He believes firmly that Christ’s message of redemption (as written in the New Testament) clearly means that salvation can only be through him and that this essentially negates the specific “contract” between God/Yaweh and man and obligations of the Jews to practice/adhere to Judaism and its dictates. He believes that all Jews are hellbound if they do not accept Christ (and though I know he also ardently believes in the Armageddon scenario I can’t recall ever specifically discussing the role of the Jews in all of it…per se…). Now don’t jump on me for all of this – I think he is nuts! But anyway that’s how he sees it. He doesn’t say convert or be killed BTW he accepts the “free will” doctrine applied to Jews just as he accepts my atheistic stance (and he prays for me often…). He is of course an ardent supporter of Israel and extremely anti-Muslim (which he feels is just total blasphemy…somewhere between the Catholic Church and the Mormons I believe…)…anyway – he has a certain biblical prophecy based view regarding Israel etc that colors his views but as someone else here has already pointed out – much of the support that Israel receives from the West (whether by Christian groups or otherwise) is based more on the (correct) perception of Israel and Israelis being people who basically share our basic values, our civics and because Israel is a nation which is part of the West – economically, politically and socially. This belief and the feeling that Jews who were so victimized deserved a homeland and a place where they would not be powerless victims again I think is what spurs most support for Israel and has done such since its founding. Again, obviously Israel isn’t going to turn away support – but I do share some of the reservations concerning the motivations and ultimate intentions of some of these evangelical groups and the potential for some sort of a backlash in the future if and or when paths diverge (I would also express similar caution regarding cozying up to Turkey too closely…sorry – but its true). Likewise, I believe that the concerns expressed by Ricky – regarding some of the extreme (fundamentalist) intolerant moral stands might be a bit of a cause for caution. Of course, again it is a matter of survival at the moment so it is easy (and entirely understandable) to overlook such things.

Regarding Islam as evil – etc – I don’t buy it. I have great personal problems with the teachings and dictates of Islam – I find them anti-humanity in a great many ways – though I have similar problems with Christianity (and to a lesser extent Judaism…much lesser for what I think should be obvious reasons…lack of evangelizing is one…and its inherent acceptance of debate and questioning/discovery etc another…besides in my view it is more of a national religion whose focus is on ritual and observance of meaning to Jews and Jewish history and culture – and this has great inherent cultural value and a certain majesty/beauty to it…and [most importantly] it does not seek to change me or my views!) – all that being said I believe that all religions strive at their core to be an expression of “the good” and are not inherently evil…nor are those who believe and follow the religion evil – though aspects of the religions and its dictates and beliefs and interpretation – particularly in regards to intolerance – can foster such. Islam – as a force in the Arab world today…and in the Middle East/North Africa/Asia (and now Europe and North America) in general – is clearly stuck in a fundamentalist mindset that is more appropriate to the Middle Ages then something of value for modern people today. That is not to say that one cannot be modern, enlightened or just within Islam – as many are – and extremely so – and it would be a mistake to think otherwise – however because Islam never went through its reformation – it and most adherents are in a great many ways stuck in an archaic past. What makes this worse is that the primary Islamic groups that hold sway – particularly in the Middle East – are so conservative and doctrinaire and hold so much power – that it is nearly impossible for reform on a large scale (without something extraordinary occurring…like some new prophet of moderation appearing and working miracles or such…still – even understanding these things and understanding how Israel has had to directly deal with this and people driven by this level or reasoning – with the resultant violence and such – I cannot just brand a whole people/religion or such evil – neither can I aspire to a (pure) good versus evil dichotomy for this conflict – even if I tend to side with Israel and Israelis in most things. Anyway – I’ve already gone on far too long as it is…let me just end by saying that generalizing is (lead to) evil…leads to justifications…and Jews – better then most anyone – should understand the perils of generalizing and justification based upon such.

[SteveMetch]

I strongly disagree with the opinion that Judaism is based strongly on salvation. That is a Christian thing.

Judaism is much more about the idea of a covenant - a promise or contract.

G-d promised certain things, if the Jews would do certain things in return - fullfill a certain role, obey his commandments. Each individual Jew is so judged - but it is not about salvation or the afterlife, as merely being in G-d's good graces - living up to the contract.

So Jews, Atheist, Nazis all share the same ultimate fate? I think Hitler faired a little better than the average Jew in Germany don’t you think? How often did he pray to G-d? How faithful was he to the contract?

What’s the whole point of Judaism, making sure lightning doesn’t strike you on the head in the here and now? Why would it matter since you won't be arround anymore anyway to remember any of this. How do you reconcile G-d’s protection of the Jews against its enemies in the context of undeniable history if not for some type of reward in the here after for your faithfulness?

What are the terms of the contract if not being with G-d in heaven? Or are all the rewards and punshiments to be given out here on Earth? No tooth decay, cancer, good breath, less pain, what?

See ultimately in the context of just how undeniably “unfair” the natural world is it just can’t work without something beyond what we can see. If not than the whole God thing is just a tremendous waste of time and resources.

[MGB8]

No, its not that there is no concept of heaven/hell, but its a side point, not like Christianity - the main point. You don't do what you are supposed to do because of heavenly reward - you do it because its your obligation. It impacts the here and now, too, as well as a nation's ultimate destiny.

[SteveMetch]

No, its not that there is no concept of heaven/hell, but its a side point, not like Christianity - the main point. You don't do what you are supposed to do because of heavenly reward - you do it because its your obligation. It impacts the here and now, too, as well as a nation's ultimate destiny.

Then we are in agreement.

Wouldn't you say this adhering to this "obligation" is somewhat to the long term advantage of a Jewish person? And given that eternity is a long time wouldn't it tend to mathematically diminish any other benefits you might believe your will recieve by adhering to that "obligation" prior to Heaven?

Christians call the above salvation because it not some gee it would be nice to have as a side benefit or something like that. Better luck next time.

I understand that the whole concept of why one adheres to faithfulness with G-d is not because of some kind-of bargain with G-d but rather out of true affection for G-d. That affection should manifest itself in your actions on Earth. It through our actions we cut ourself off from G-d not as an deliberate action on G-d’s part yet another difference with Islam.

[CoinToss]

Why is your heart beating, why are your cells working together ?
Is it in order to go to the heaven of cells ?
No, they are just doing their job so that you can live.
In the same way, the Jews are just doing their job.

The outcomes of its job is not clear for a single cell, neither it is for us.
However, we are fulfilling it the best way possible assuming the complexity of a human life. Trying to enhance everyday :)

[SteveMetch]

Woah – covering a lot of ground here and there is so much I could and would like to comment on but I’ll do my best to keep it brief.

Evangelical support for Israel – Of course, Israel – in its situation will take any help it can get – as would any nation or people in her situation. Obviously Christian evangelicals have a concept for what Israel means that goes beyond a mere state or people in need – however Gershom Gorenberg’s concerns (as well as Alan Dershowitz’s are entirely valid I think). I have a very good friend who is charismatic (a stripe of evangelical) Christian (and is very well informed/knowledgeable regarding his particular Christian perspective and the biblical (new and old testament) foundations for such. We have discussed the issue of what the coming of Christ and Christianity means for the Jews at length. I would contend that his views regarding the message/meaning of Jesus as the messiah and what his coming (ie. means for salvation) portends for Jews/Judaism are certainly at odds with views held by most all Jews. He believes firmly that Christ’s message of redemption (as written in the New Testament) clearly means that salvation can only be through him and that this essentially negates the specific “contract” between God/Yaweh and man and obligations of the Jews to practice/adhere to Judaism and its dictates. He believes that all Jews are hellbound if they do not accept Christ (and though I know he also ardently believes in the Armageddon scenario I can’t recall ever specifically discussing the role of the Jews in all of it…per se…). Now don’t jump on me for all of this – I think he is nuts! But anyway that’s how he sees it. He doesn’t say convert or be killed BTW he accepts the “free will” doctrine applied to Jews just as he accepts my atheistic stance (and he prays for me often…). He is of course an ardent supporter of Israel and extremely anti-Muslim (which he feels is just total blasphemy…somewhere between the Catholic Church and the Mormons I believe…)…anyway – he has a certain biblical prophecy based view regarding Israel etc that colors his views but as someone else here has already pointed out – much of the support that Israel receives from the West (whether by Christian groups or otherwise) is based more on the (correct) perception of Israel and Israelis being people who basically share our basic values, our civics and because Israel is a nation which is part of the West – economically, politically and socially. This belief and the feeling that Jews who were so victimized deserved a homeland and a place where they would not be powerless victims again I think is what spurs most support for Israel and has done such since its founding. Again, obviously Israel isn’t going to turn away support – but I do share some of the reservations concerning the motivations and ultimate intentions of some of these evangelical groups and the potential for some sort of a backlash in the future if and or when paths diverge (I would also express similar caution regarding cozying up to Turkey too closely…sorry – but its true). Likewise, I believe that the concerns expressed by Ricky – regarding some of the extreme (fundamentalist) intolerant moral stands might be a bit of a cause for caution. Of course, again it is a matter of survival at the moment so it is easy (and entirely understandable) to overlook such things.

Regarding Islam as evil – etc – I don’t buy it. I have great personal problems with the teachings and dictates of Islam – I find them anti-humanity in a great many ways – though I have similar problems with Christianity (and to a lesser extent Judaism…much lesser for what I think should be obvious reasons…lack of evangelizing is one…and its inherent acceptance of debate and questioning/discovery etc another…besides in my view it is more of a national religion whose focus is on ritual and observance of meaning to Jews and Jewish history and culture – and this has great inherent cultural value and a certain majesty/beauty to it…and [most importantly] it does not seek to change me or my views!) – all that being said I believe that all religions strive at their core to be an expression of “the good” and are not inherently evil…nor are those who believe and follow the religion evil – though aspects of the religions and its dictates and beliefs and interpretation – particularly in regards to intolerance – can foster such. Islam – as a force in the Arab world today…and in the Middle East/North Africa/Asia (and now Europe and North America) in general – is clearly stuck in a fundamentalist mindset that is more appropriate to the Middle Ages then something of value for modern people today. That is not to say that one cannot be modern, enlightened or just within Islam – as many are – and extremely so – and it would be a mistake to think otherwise – however because Islam never went through its reformation – it and most adherents are in a great many ways stuck in an archaic past. What makes this worse is that the primary Islamic groups that hold sway – particularly in the Middle East – are so conservative and doctrinaire and hold so much power – that it is nearly impossible for reform on a large scale (without something extraordinary occurring…like some new prophet of moderation appearing and working miracles or such…still – even understanding these things and understanding how Israel has had to directly deal with this and people driven by this level or reasoning – with the resultant violence and such – I cannot just brand a whole people/religion or such evil – neither can I aspire to a (pure) good versus evil dichotomy for this conflict – even if I tend to side with Israel and Israelis in most things. Anyway – I’ve already gone on far too long as it is…let me just end by saying that generalizing is (lead to) evil…leads to justifications…and Jews – better then most anyone – should understand the perils of generalizing and justification based upon such.

Your evangelically friend is plain wrong Jews are not going to Hell unless they become Christians. In fact I’m sure there will be Atheist, Muslims and Hindus and Buddhist ahead of some of these self-proclaimed Christians into Heaven. Then again evangelics believe in the literal interpretation of the bible a scientifically provable impossibility. It’s also amazing while asserting the literal interpretation of floods they gloss over the clear instructions by Jesus giving Peter the Keys to Heaven and his building his Church on Earth etc. Somehow they explain that way but we are all dammed if we don't believe the world was created in seven days.

Where were we to all go for over 19 centuries before they showed up? Let’s see Christ’s plan was to die and rise to save mankind for which we then had to wait for almost 2,000 years before they showed up. Yep makes sense alright.

Concerning Islam

You don’t have to buy it? just read listen and understand. Don’t believe your lying eyes will look again. That neck connected to those lying eyes will be severed by those same Muslims you don’t think are so bad after all. Islam is as evil an ideology as ever conceived by man or Satan depending on your perspective.

Say not all Muslims are bad is just like saying not all Germans are Nazis. While both are true the inference is irrelevant. Islam as a doctrine is Evil just because some self-proclaimed Muslims don’t practice Islam doesn’t make it peaceful.

[Muslima]

The Jewish/Christian theology is fundamentally based on the concept of salvation. Salvation is defined as being sufficiently compatible with Yahweh in order to join him in heaven. Since Allah is “dissimilar” with mankind this is impossible in Islamic theology. Another dissimilarity is that in Jewish/Christian theology it’s Satan that will torture you in Hell in Islam it is Allah. Given what Allah wants us to do to be “good” Muslims its hard to tell the difference.

As foretold in the Jewish scriptures one would come that would expand Yahweh’s covenant of salvation to the Gentiles (non-Jews). Christians obviously believe that person is Christ. This new convent with Gentiles in no way invalidates the Jewish birth right covenant but rather expands Yahweh’s plan of salvation to all of mankind. As such the Jews are perfectly fine where they are through adherence with their birth right covenant with G-d.

Muslims on the other hand have beliefs that are completely at odds with everything Yahweh has instructed. As a point of fact Mohammed violates every one of the 10 commandments many times over. What is so damming is that despite this Mohammed is further held up as the best example of a Muslim. The Angel that spoke to Mohammed denied everything the Jesus taught, a clear sign/warning made 500 years before Mohammed to Christians, of the Anti-Christ. Even all the lore surrounding the 12 Imam sounds a lot like what Christian believe the Anti-Christ will look like.

You ask why true Christians support Jews it’s because Yahweh has explicitly indicated he will curse those who curse the Jews and bless those who help them.

I find it very interesting just how cursed Muslim, Nazis, Communist, and other assorted Jew Haters have faired vs. those who support and defend the right of Jews to live in “all” of Historic Israel. America is one of the most blessed nations on the face of earth and the Muslims among the most cursed. I wonder why that is? As far as I’m concerned having the Jews hold onto only 1% of the Middle East is more than equitable, the Muslim’s can have the other 99% of the Middle East.

Christian support has nothing to do with the second coming, a process that will be initiated by the anti-Christ once he feels his forces are in place. It is foretold that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before the anti-Christ comes. Leveling the dome of the rock and rebuilding the Jewish Temple would be a good way to get all those Anti-Christ followers whipped-up into a frenzy don’t you think? What do you think would be the average reaction of the average Muslim if the Jews did that? Sounds like the prophecy doesn’t it?

Do you have any doubt about which side the Muslim are actually on in this conflict between Good and Evil?

By the way the Bible has not been corrupted maybe you should read it some time. You might learn something. I have learned volumes by reading the Koran and Hadiths. Some of the explicitly described violence endorsed by Mohammed and Allah is hard to get out of ones mind at times. Maybe that is why I have so little tolerance for those who defend Islam and all its barbaric baggage. I have the same problem with those who defend Racist Fascism and Communism.

I’m kind of funny that way being so intolerant of intolerant ideologies after all.


You wrote a lot of BS and nonsense but you didn't answer my questions.

1. Can you tell me what will happen to the Jews at Armageddon.

[Muslima]

Can you stop speaking for Judaism? MGB8 put you in your place regarding "salvation", but he didn't go though all your finer points in detail. I'd do so but i havn't the time.
Your knowledge about Judasim is about as nonsensical as you knowledge about Islam.

You pretend to know all but you know F*** all. People aren'[t as blind and stupid as you think. Besides, Judaism has more in common with Islam than with Christianity.

REad and learn you ignoramus


The Jewish-Muslim Connection: Traditional Ways of Life
by Daniel Pipes
Present Tense
Autumn 1981
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/160


Stick to the points and answer the question.

What will happen to the Jews when the Messiah descends? and tell us all about ARmageddon. Thank you.

[Illuminatus]

In my earlier post , # 24 I wroteThe bottom line and in the end.....

You may lock and close the thread now.

Have a nice day : )

Knowing full well and as expected, Muslima replies to another forum guest:

[ You wrote a lot of BS and nonsense but you didn't answer my questions.

[ Your knowledge about Judasim is about as nonsensical as you knowledge about Islam.

[ You pretend to know all but you know F*** all. People aren'[t as blind and stupid as you think.

[ REad and learn you ignoramus

I knew that Muslima was incapable of basic courtesy in an honest dialog, or a fair and open exchange of ideas – instead and as expected, Muslima believes that ad hominems and insults best represents her preconceived and deceitful notions.

Its too late to close the thread Muslima, you've conducted yourself exactly as I expected.

best regards

[SteveMetch]

Can you stop speaking for Judaism? MGB8 put you in your place regarding "salvation", but he didn't go though all your finer points in detail. I'd do so but i havn't the time.
Your knowledge about Judasim is about as nonsensical as you knowledge about Islam.

You pretend to know all but you know F*** all. People aren'[t as blind and stupid as you think. Besides, Judaism has more in common with Islam than with Christianity.

REad and learn you ignoramus


The Jewish-Muslim Connection: Traditional Ways of Life
by Daniel Pipes
Present Tense
Autumn 1981
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/160


Stick to the points and answer the question.

What will happen to the Jews when the Messiah descends? and tell us all about ARmageddon. Thank you.

At the end of Armageddon all the rock pile worshipers will be defeated the worshipers of the one One true G-d will live in happiness. The one true G-d will never forsake his chosen people if they are faithful to the covenant. To do so would require G-d to break his own promise something even G-d can not do. See in the Jewish/Christian concept of G-d even he is not above his own essence or laws. He cannot lie, cannot deceive, cannot break his own laws, cannot deny freewill, doesn’t preside over ourtorture in Hell etc. In contrast Satan and Allah can do all of the above.

I’ll give you one guess as to which side you are on.

The truth shall set you free Muslima. Don’t you wonder what’s in that nasty little "corrupt" Bible your Iman’s doesn’t want you to read? Jews and Christians are under no such orders not to read the Koran and Hadiths. In fact I have actually learned a lot more about my own faith through Islam for it defines the complete antithesis of everything in the Bible. Evil defines Good as much as Good defines Evil. The Asian religious traditions have that part right on the money. The passages of “not listening to doctrines of demons” or “angels of light” “who deny the resurrection” all have much more meaning now within the context of Islam. Even the cryptic book of Revelation makes more sense now in the context of Islam being the religion of the Anti-Christ.

Given your response I think I have hit a nerve.

I feel the good in you…. the conflict…. leave the dark side Muslima.

[FireControlman]

Well, I'm very new here however this board having members from many different countries and faiths I think it is important it is understood why Christians support Israel irregardless of the "end times".

I would think this board is lacking in numbers with active membership.


Evangelicals like myself are poor representatives of the faithful however make no mistake as to what we all believe in, it is easily found in scripture. Those who disagree DO NOT FOLLOW the word of God as layed out in the scriptures period.

I support JEWS with all my heart because they are God's people. If the scriptures indicated otherwise I would have a different opinion. If they are close to his heart well guess what we as Christians are trying to be Godly and therefore we love the Jews, now is that a hard concept to believe?

Due 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

Due 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.

Due 7:7-10
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

[FireControlman]

and moreover it is stated that if you so desire to cause harm or ill towards his people you might end up on God's list of non-desireables. I happen to fear the almighty God of Israel.

In no way am I trying to preach or convert here. I am giving reference as to why we support Israel morally, physically, and financially.

Gen 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

[FireControlman]

additionally Christ was a JEW, the disciples were JEWS.... Paul who was a strict religious Jew, a Pharisee makes the followin statement in Romans:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[Kanadees]

It is the duty of Christians to support the modern state of Israel.

[Ricky]

My thanks to Firecontrolman for his support for Israel.I hope this support will continue to exist after Israel withdraws from 90% of the West Bank. I also hope that Firecontrolman will endorse the view recently put forward by both the Orthodox and the non-Orthodox Jewish American Agencies that in future, money which is donated to Israel from abroad should be used to enhance all the sections of the Israeli population, both Jews and Arabs

[Alfred E Neuman]

My thanks to Firecontrolman for his support for Israel.I hope this support will continue to exist after Israel withdraws from 90% of the West Bank.


You must realize that we Christians don't like giving money to someone about to commit suicide. So give us plenty of warning so we can send the money to starving kids in Africa instead ;)

I am not an Evangelical but Christian support of Israel is fairly common amongst the American Christian denominations.

I don't think one person thinks that they can speed up or slow down the Second Coming by giving money to Israel. They see it as helping out the "mother faith" for lack of a better word. Our religious roots are in Israel.

Most Christians would like Israel to become more religious, to rebuild the Temple etc. etc. We feel that much of the angst and trouble Israel is suffering is for the same reason you suffered it 2000-3000 years ago; ie you are not embracing your God. You know, putting your faith in guns versus God.

Also, there is a BIG difference between what we THINK is going to happen at Armageddon and what we wish would happen. We think that a whole lot of people all over the world are going to die because of this battle. A lot of Jews, a lot of Muslims and a lot of Christians.

So the idea that Christians are giving money to Israel to 1) speed up the Second Coming, 2) lay the ground work for the death of a bunch of Jews, or 3) to bribe them into converting; is silly.

My son is joining a private school (Kimber Academy) which has a great relationship with a couple of Israeli schools. We support archeological digs etc. We have Israelis come over and we go to Israel. Next year I will probably escort my son on his trip to Israel. (How do I smuggle in an M16?)

Now, if accepting money from people who's ideology you abhor (anti-abortion, anti- gay marriage et. al) then yes, I would turn down their money if I were you. You must stick to your principles. I would do the same thing.

[Ricky]

What mainly worries me about Evangelical support for Israel is the fear that,for instance, should Israel dismantle the Israeli settlements that are beyond the Security Fence, this great love for Israel will become great hatred because Israel is behaving in a way opposite to what the Evangelicals want in order to bring about the second coming of Jesus

[Alfred E Neuman]

What mainly worries me about Evangelical support for Israel is the fear that,for instance, should Israel dismantle the Israeli settlements that are beyond the Security Fence, this great love for Israel will become great hatred because Israel is behaving in a way opposite to what the Evangelicals want in order to bring about the second coming of Jesus


The reaction would not be hatred. It is your country, not ours. I think we would shake our heads in disbelief and say they are crazy and bent on suicide. But those actions by Israel would not speed up or slow down the Second Coming by one hour. The objective lesson here is that NOTHING will "bring about" the Second Coming.

That's where you don't fully understand us as yet. (and we are sooooo easy to understand :) )

There are two kinds of support. The first is monetary. I don't belief we give more than token monetary support for Israel. There is no need. Much of it might end up in Switzerland anyway because of con artists asking for money for worthy causes. The Jews in America are the big financial givers to Israel; not the Christians. That is their job, not ours.

More important to Israel is the moral and political support that the Christians give Israel. This results in vetos in the UN; military aide and joint operations against Islamic countries. That is the support that is critical to keep.

You can see it in the almost total support for the actions that Israel is undertaking at this moment in Gaza and Lebanon. Luckily for Israel, most of America is still Christian, still roots for the underdog and still believes that Israel is mostly in the right.

It is the Left in America that is anti-Israel for the most part.

Now this may be confusing for you, as you have probably been brought up to believe that it is the Right (a la Nazi) that hates Jews and Israel. Remember, Hitler was a Socialist. Stalin called him "right wing" to differentiate his brand of socialism versus Hitler's. To an American Conservative, a Nazi is a Left Wing radical nationalist (versus internationalist like the Russian brand of socialism).

Most Conservatives in America fully support Israel. Some do not; more for the reason that they don't support ANY entangling alliances with foreign nations (Pat Buchanan). And you have to admit, our support for Israel is definately "entangling". I sometimes say "the pox on the whole world" and would like to drop financial support for ALL countries outside of the US.

I am very Conservative; along the lines of Pat Buchanan. But I do have religious and non religious reasons to support Israel. It has nothing however, to do with more quickly bringing about the Second Coming, or wanting to convert Jews to my flavor of Christianity. I believe that Israel is the native home of the Jews and that they have a right to be there more than the Arabs. I believe it is written in all of our scriptures that they will return there in the last days and I think that it is cool to see history take place. I do believe that Israel will be tormented by the Arabs until Israel grows more religious (just as they have always been tormented by outsiders when they turned away from their religion and adopted pagan ways)


As Europe has become less and less Christian; Israel will lose more and more support. Early European support post WW2 has all but vanished as Europe has moved almost totally away from Christianity. (replaced with secular humanism).

The only area you need be concerned is that there is a cultural and religious war in the US between the Left and the Right which is getting more and more violent. Most of the Christians are on the Right while most American Jews are on the side of the Left. This war is reaching a critical point and might someday result in shooting....it has almost happened a couple of times (Bush 2000 Florida recount etc.).

If there is ever loss of support for Israel it will be because of that civil war in the US versus anything that Israel does or does not do.

[ShimonG]

This is the way i see it.

Christians support Israel to hasten armageddon, where all jews will either be converted or slaugtered by Jesus and his christian god.

Moslems are not quite patient enough to wait for armageddon. They would like to kill all the jews now.

What am i to do? Well, i'll take all the support i can get from the christians and use it to fight mohammads allah-jehad doped pigs and send each one of them straight to hell and the 72 houris. BTW, what does muslima get in mohammadan heaven?

And I will gladly take my chances with the whole armageddon thingamajig!!

Its either definitely die now at the hands of mohammad or die at an unspecified time later (armageddon) which may well never come.

[Regina]

I don't think Israel depends so much like that of Evangelical money.

Israel depends of United States, that you can be sure!! If Israel is strong is because they have american money to help them against Palestinians. Some americans are starting to get angry because the state of Israel took from their taxes a lot of money and give them economical prejudice, but that's their problem not mine, I don't pay my taxes in United States...

It's funny how we never heard about Finantial Crisis in Israel... You live from agriculture (it never gave wealth to anyone), ecomical support from jewish companies like Estée Lauder, Lóreal, etc, and from Tourism. But even tourism couldn't give so much money to finance all your army. That's why you are giants when compared to Lebanon, it's because US supports you, and not because your merits. By contrary, Lebanese people work Hard everyday to earn money, they are proud of their work, they are very honourable people who wouldn't like to be dependent of anyone like you.

In the day you lost the help from US, I would like to see how you would combat. Talk about American's dependence, not about Evangelic's dependence.

[Womble]

It's funny how we never heard about Finantial Crisis in Israel...
Is anyone else laughing at that statement as hard as I am?

You live from agriculture (it never gave wealth to anyone), ecomical support from jewish companies like Estée Lauder, Lóreal, etc, and from Tourism.
Hehehehehehehehe! You're probably the first person in the world to accuse Israel on living off the hand outs from Estée Lauder and Lóreal. This is comedy gold, people. PLEASE don't ban her, she may be a Jew hater but she is SUCH a good laugh!


But even tourism couldn't give so much money to finance all your army. That's why you are giants when compared to Lebanon, it's because US supports you, and not because your merits.
Aren't you forgetting something? I don't know... our military industry perhaps, which alone earns more money that we receive from the US? How about the fact that we are one of the world leaders in computer technologies, biotechnologies, alternative energy sources, medicine? How about the fact that we have the world's highest scientific research productivity ratings?

In the day you lost the help from US, I would like to see how you would combat.
Just like we did before US aid began. With our usual brilliance.

[Mira]

At what point does it stop being funny, Womble? How many people have to talk like her before it's not funny at all?

[Womble]

At what point does it stop being funny, Womble? How many people have to talk like her before it's not funny at all?
How many people have you heard suggesting that Israel lives off L'Oreal?

[Regina]

Hehehehehehehehe! You're probably the first person in the world to accuse Israel on living off the hand outs from Estée Lauder and Lóreal. This is comedy gold, people. PLEASE don't ban her, she may be a Jew hater but she is SUCH a good laugh!

I'm happy you are laughing so much with my posts. Continue like that, at least I made someone happy.
Maybe you are always laughing because you find some true in my posts... or do you usually laugh about wrong things?
Yes, Estée Lauder helps Israel a LOT! Like it or not. In the past I bought some things of Estée Lauder and from Clinique too. And my beauty assistent (from Estée Lauder) told me about the great help of this beauty group to Israel. My Catholic Priest told me the same, and now I use Shiseido! :D

Aren't you forgetting something? I don't know... our military industry perhaps, which alone earns more money that we receive from the US? How about the fact that we are one of the world leaders in computer technologies, biotechnologies, alternative energy sources, medicine? How about the fact that we have the world's highest scientific research productivity ratings?

Yes, you are brilliant in Medicine and in many other things, no doubt of that. Taking the risk of being out of the topic but a friend of my mother went to an israelit hospital to make an operation to control the acids in her stomach. They made it with laser and wow it was a sucess. As you can see I am a fair person, who knows when I should talk well and when I criticize. But why are you so good like that NOW? Because you have the american (and british) help. They finance many of your investigations. If US helped Lebanon so much they helped you, you would see how Lebanon would be the best in the world in so many things. In Brazil, they have a large community, in México also, and they are always great in what they do.


Just like we did before US aid began. With our usual brilliance.[/QUOTE]

[Womble]

I'm happy you are laughing so much with my posts. Continue like that, at least I made someone happy.
Maybe you are always laughing because you find some true in my posts... or do you usually laugh about wrong things?
I laugh because you've spawned the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I've seen in years. I laugh because your posts are so self-mocking it's hilarious.

Yes, Estée Lauder helps Israel a LOT! Like it or not. In the past I bought some things of Estée Lauder and from Clinique too. And my beauty assistent (from Estée Lauder) told me about the great help of this beauty group to Israel. My Catholic Priest told me the same, and now I use Shiseido! :D
And look what happened to your beauty:p

Yes, you are brilliant in Medicine and in many other things, no doubt of that. Taking the risk of being out of the topic but a friend of my mother went to an israelit hospital to make an operation to control the acids in her stomach. They made it with laser and wow it was a sucess. As you can see I am a fair person, who knows when I should talk well and when I criticize. But why are you so good like that NOW? Because you have the american (and british) help. They finance many of your investigations.
You know WHY they finance our research? Because we are damn good at research. We've become world leaders in agricultural technologies AND weapons long before any US aid began to arrive. Then the Americans began to help us, because Americans know good business when they see one.

If US helped Lebanon so much they helped you, you would see how Lebanon would be the best in the world in so many things. In Brazil, they have a large community, in México also, and they are always great in what they do.
I don't doubt the enterprising spirit of the Lebanese, but theirs couldn't hope to match ours, even with the same investment. Money isn't everything in science my dear, and Israel's scientific capabilities are well ahead of those of much richer states whose science budget far surpasses ours, with or without US aid.

Just compare: Israel receives 3 billion dollars a year from the US, Egypt receives 2 billion. Do you see Egypt having 70% of the same success we have?

[Mediocrates]

Moreover the ~1.8 billion dollars in US military aid that is then spent in the US as required by the law should be compared to the 25 billion in total defence spending.

[Ricky]

There are two kinds of people who I am wary of- anti semites and philosemites. The reasons for my wariness of antisemites is self evident. Also, although I am also wary of philosemites, I must admit that there is an overwhelmingly important difference between someone who professes deep hatred for my kind from someone who professes deep love for my kind.
Nonetheless, why should any group feel such overwhelming love for different ethnic group? Nobody feels overwhelming love for Indians, Africans, Eskimos. So why should any non Jews feel such overwhelming love for Jews (some of whom are decent individuals and others evil individuals, just like in any other ethnic group)?
I feel more comfortable with non Jewish tourists who come here out of interest to come to know another culture, looking upon Israelis as any other ethnic group foreign to themselves, feeling no hatred but also no overwhelming love. Just another set of God's creatures that they have come across in their travels around the world.

[Alfred E Neuman]

If US helped Lebanon so much they helped you, you would see how Lebanon would be the best in the world in so many things.



I agree. We should immediately send 3/4 of our lawyers to Lebanon to fix their problems. (Uh, one way of course).

[Alfred E Neuman]

I Do you see Egypt having 70% of the same success we have?


No. And it is because they don't have Loreal and Este Lauder. I know this because they smell different than do Israelis.



:D

[Alfred E Neuman]

Nonetheless, why should any group feel such overwhelming love for different ethnic group? .


They don't feel an overwhelming love for Jews. They feel a bond with the land of Israel, and they feel a brotherhood with the Jews. They see Israel being the focus of the world in the last days....which we can see it is.

You are taking this issue way beyond what is being offered by the Christians. It is not some Freudian worship or unnatural attraction.

They are Christian. Christ lived, taught and died in Israel. All the pre-Christian prophets are considered prophets by the Christians. They came from Israel. We study the Old and New Testaments. We consider Christianity the maturation of Judaism, not a replacement.

So relax. I have feelings for Germany which is the land of mother's side of the family. And I have feelings for England, which is the land of my father's side of the family. I have feelings for Isreal, which is the land of the foundation of my religion. No more, nothing magical, mystical or devious.

[varian]

... Besides, Judaism has more in common with Islam than with Christianity. ...
What will happen to the Jews when the Messiah descends? and tell us all about ARmageddon. Thank you.

"Judaism has more in common with Islam..."??? Only because Islamic nations border on Israel. That's as close as Islam gets. Islam has been trying to supercede Judaism for centuries, and very much like Christianity today, is just another cheap knock off religion. At least Christianity started as a Torah observant sect (cult if you will), whereas Muhammad only used the Torah to try to justify "his" new "revelations." He even attempted to have the early adherents bow towards Jerusalem. Oops, those damned Jews in the area at that time nixed that practice. Because the Torah was given to the entire nation of Israel, most Jews didn't fall for Muhammad's tripe. Could it be that the cult of Ishmaelites is still trying to supplant the religion of the tribes of Jacob (Israel)? Isn't this the real reason that the majority of Islam wishes for the extermination of Israel? Kind of like the nearest, next of kin gets the inheritance. The last religion standing wins!! The only reason Islam would want to get "close" to Judaism is to put a knife in its back. Islam has more in common with Judaism - right, like a festering boil!!!

[varian]

Micah 4:1
It will be in the end of days that the mountain of the temple of Hashem will be firmly established as the most prominent of the mountains, and it will be exalted up above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will go and say, 'Come let us go up to the Mountain of Hashem and to the Temple of the G-D of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of Hashem from Jerusalem.

It sounds to me that although many Jews may perish in future conflicts along with other people throughout the rest of the planet, the Jewish Messiah will have established His kingdom in Eretz Yisrael. Gentiles will learn Torah along with the Jews; or as it is stated in the Christian New Testament: '...to the Jew first, and then to the (gentile).

[savvy]

I think this sums up the answer:

Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed. Whoever curses Israel will be cursed

Numbers 24:9

Muslima should read Numbers chapter 24.

When Arabs/Muslims curse Israel what happens is that those curses fall back on them, because they have pronounced those curses with their own mouth.

Numbers 24:9 is the main reason why Christians support Israel. Armegeddon comes later. Most Jews are under the misconception that they will be killed when Jesus returns, that's a load of . Jesus will return when all the nations of the world gather against Israel. The enemies of Israel will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming. The reason God chose the Jews is too prove a point that even though they are small, they will defeat the giants of this world, simply because the God of Jacob is the only true God.
And God has chosen the weak things of this world to shame the strong.

The Jews will know then that Jesus is their Messiah and they will accept him cause it's impossible that they won't . When their enemies have been destroyed and the Messiah comes with ten thousands of his angels and saints, I think they will pretty much get it. But all this will not happen before the Jews say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". Jesus said that he won't come before the Jews say these words everywhere and call out to the Messiah, because these are words that mean they are invinting the Messiah to come and are ready to accept him.

Jews are not better than anyone else. They have always found God's favour, because God has used them to show his glory and his might and to prove a point, that he is God and don't mess with him.

Even though Jews don't believe this ,enemies of Israel are actually enemies of God and their war is with God, not with Jews or other human beings.

[jeannie]

First of all, as far as the Christian faith goes, it is not a different religion than Judaism, it is the fullfillment of it. The Tanach fortells the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah. It is also based on a promise, the promise that the Lord gave to Abraham, "And Abraham believed the Lord, and it was credited to him as righteousness," Genesis 15:6. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world (Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Atheists...) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." I believe God at His Word and am born again. He has given me a new heart, His own heart, to love all mankind. The Jews have never ceased being His people as some Christians believe. If that were true, where would our security be? But that is why I support Israel, they are the apple of God's eye, Deuteronomy 2:10, Zechariah 2:8. If they are the apple of His eye, they are he apple of mine. Lord bless y'all....