Same old Espana

[Mediocrates]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278919,00.html


In Spain, anti-Semitism is new leftist trend

Spanish Jews knew there were hard times ahead. Prime Minister Zapatero has not disappointed them
Ignacio Russell Cano


Madrid: Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, Prime Minister of Spain and Secretary General of the Socialist Party, arrived to power at a time nobody expected, not even inside the Party.

Keen on populist tirades against the United States "Dickhead Bush" and "Ketchup Queen Kerry", his whole campaign did not bring much attention until the moment Al-Qaeda decided to blow up Madrid trains, killing almost 200 people and bringing to an end Spain's membership of the West.

From that moment on, everybody knew nothing would be the same, and Spanish Jews knew there were hard times ahead. Prime Minister Zapatero has not disappointed them.

'Understand Nazis'

Although many experts had foretold of the imminent disappearing of European Jews, nobody expected such a virulent explosion of anti-Semitism in Spain, not even under a Leftist government.

The first signal came on Monday, 5 December, when during a dinner with the Benarroch family, Zapatero and wife began claiming what Vidal Quadras, member of the European Parliament, described on the radio as "a tirade of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism".

By the moment the Benarroch couple had left the table to express their regrets, Zapatero was explaining his lack of surprise about the Holocaust: according to the people present, Zapatero claimed to understand the Nazis.

[CoinToss]

Lol, what a parasite !

Maybe you ignore that when Zapatero became PM, he tolds Ariel Sharon he was worried not to have been congratulated. Because Zapatero (shoemaker) was supposedly a name of jewish origin... What a wanker...

[determinism]

that story can just as well be made up or distorted.

who exactly is the source of the info? what did zapatero actually say?
without this information this is nothing but a cheap piece of propaganda.

[CoinToss]

Who are you talking to ?

[Floyd]

Slowly but for sure, everybody are turning their back on Izrael... People realized who is the real terorist...

[CoinToss]

Slowly but for sure, everybody are turning their back on Izrael... People realized who is the real terorist...
Maybe you can talk about the Handschar Nazi Division of Bosnia ?
How many dozens of thousands Jews did they kill ?
Huh ?

[Floyd]

Maybe you can talk about the Handschar Nazi Division of Bosnia ?
How many dozens of thousands Jews did they kill ?
Huh ?

Never heard of it. There are not neonazi organizations in Bosnia. Our ex country Yugoslavia was fighting against Germans, we were Tito's Partizans.

[CoinToss]

Never heard of it. There are not neonazi organizations in Bosnia. Our ex country Yugoslavia was fighting against Germans, we were Tito's Partizans.
Ho, really ? You didn't even know your country participated to the final solution ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_ %281st_Croatian%29
Who are the filthy terrorists now ?

[CoinToss]

Slowly but for sure, everybody are turning their back on Izrael... People realized who is the real terorist...
Ho, by the way, Israel received support from most of the democraties.
Including USA, France, Germany, UK, Canada and more.

Whoever care about Zataperro ? :D

[Floyd]

Ho, really ? You didn't even know your country participated to the final solution ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_ %281st_Croatian%29
Who are the filthy terrorists now ?

That is Croatia! I am from Bosnia.

[Floyd]

Ho, by the way, Israel received support from most of the democraties.
Including USA, France, Germany, UK, Canada and more.

Whoever care about Zataperro ? :D

Not so sure for the France & Germany. They do suport you in public, but the people hate you! Same like in Turkey.

[CoinToss]

That is Croatia! I am from Bosnia.
The Fall of 1942 saw SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler and SS-General Gottlob Berger approach Hitler with the proposal to raise a Bosnian Muslim SS division.
After the fall of Sarajevo on 16 April 1941 to Nazi Germany, and at the Yugoslav provinces of Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina and parts of Serbia were recreated as a pro-Nazi satellite state, Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska (NDH, the Independent State of Croatia). Croat-fascist, Ante Pavelic was appointed leader.
In the Bosniak Partisans, Himmler observed a fanatical, blind obedience, and fighters who would sacrifice in the name of religious or ideological belief. and thought that Muslim men would make perfect SS soldiers, as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action." [citation needed]. Himmler was inspired by the success of Bosnian infantry regiments in WWI.
The incorporation of Bosnian Muslim's into the Waffen SS required changes to be made to Nazi racist ideology and propaganda, and also required special privileges, and not required to eat rations of pork or alcoholic beverages.

[CoinToss]

Not so sure for the France & Germany. They do suport you in public, but the people hate you! Same like in Turkey.
Lol, that's where you totally fails. :D
French are more and more favorable to Israel.
Last surveys are confirming this evolution.
Israel has now more supporters in France that Palestinians.

[genghis_tom]

Israel is running short of friends, and not because they are "terrorists" as Floyd maintains. But that is a subject for another thread.
As for Spain, why on earth would anti-al qaeda translate into anti-Jew?
I hate to say it, but it is because, indeed, Spain has not changed. to revert to 14-1500s ideology so quickly...dare I say "backwards alert?"

[Floyd]

The Fall of 1942 saw SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler and SS-General Gottlob Berger approach Hitler with the proposal to raise a Bosnian Muslim SS division.
After the fall of Sarajevo on 16 April 1941 to Nazi Germany, and at the Yugoslav provinces of Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina and parts of Serbia were recreated as a pro-Nazi satellite state, Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska (NDH, the Independent State of Croatia). Croat-fascist, Ante Pavelic was appointed leader.
In the Bosniak Partisans, Himmler observed a fanatical, blind obedience, and fighters who would sacrifice in the name of religious or ideological belief. and thought that Muslim men would make perfect SS soldiers, as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action." [citation needed]. Himmler was inspired by the success of Bosnian infantry regiments in WWI.
The incorporation of Bosnian Muslim's into the Waffen SS required changes to be made to Nazi racist ideology and propaganda, and also required special privileges, and not required to eat rations of pork or alcoholic beverages.

Course there were pussies everywhere who colaborated Nazists! Did you know that tito killed Ante Pavelič & Dražo Mihajlović... Croatian & Serb Colaboration lider. But this other stuf about muslim SS division are a news for me. I rally never heard of such a thing. Even today we celebrate a liberation from Nazists.

[Leon]

That is Croatia! I am from Bosnia.


The SS Handjar division was exclusivley made up of Bosnian (and other) muslims. Did your father or grandfather serve in it?

And guess who organised and led this division? None other than the Palestinian mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini (who was Arafat's uncle). And this was done under the direct supervision of Husseini's good friend, Heinrich Himmler (as great admirer of Islam).

Which makes your ranting of "world Jewish domintation" come naturual. You inherited this and are just doing the bidding of your lovely ancestors.

Zig Heil & Allahhhuuuuuuu Akhbar!!

[golani]

That is Croatia! I am from Bosnia.

SS hansar division was from Bosnia...
Your leftist ignorance is abysmal
Have you ever read a book apart from the little re done?

[Semsem]

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_5481.shtml

Here is the picture of this clown.

Mr. Moritanos is also an antisemite. I remember he wrote a disgusting article in the Wall Street Journal a few years ago. We have not forgotten the genocide Spain committed against the Jews.

[determinism]

CoinToss,

the point is the article relies on hearsay. who knows whether what is stated was actually said by zapatero in the implied sense.

regarding 1940ties...this is quite a long time ago. there is not a single country that hasn't committed serious crimes over the last 5000 years. so lets just stick to the current issues.

[Mediocrates]

Ahh that old equivalence creeps in again. Aren't you the guys who always say "But just because we do bad things doesn't mean you can"?

[Mediocrates]

I like watching the arab hangers-on run away from this one. One would think you Euros would be cheering like the time the French minister called Israel a 'sh**ty little country'? Why not stand up for what you believe? What are you? Cowards?

[determinism]

Aren't you the guys who always say "But just because we do bad things doesn't mean you can"?

what is this referring to?


I like watching the arab hangers-on run away from this one. One would think you Euros would be cheering like the time the French minister called Israel a 'sh**ty little country'? Why not stand up for what you believe? What are you? Cowards?


who are the arab hangers-on?

[Leon]

Austria...another lovely country

[Bou]

Well, hello. I'm Spanish and I just read this article, then I reached the forum just by chance and read all your comments. I thought I should clear things up a bit.

Basically, the article is total BS. Let's check what it says:


Spanish Jews knew there were hard times ahead. Prime Minister Zapatero has not disappointed them

What is this supposed to mean? Spanish Jews are perfectly well AFAIK, did something happen to them that I missed? Please enlighten me if you know something I don't.


Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, Prime Minister of Spain and Secretary General of the Socialist Party, arrived to power at a time nobody expected, not even inside the Party.

Keen on populist tirades against the United States "Dickhead Bush" and "Ketchup Queen Kerry", his whole campaign did not bring much attention until the moment Al-Qaeda decided to blow up Madrid trains, killing almost 200 people and bringing to an end Spain's membership of the West.

I'll give the writer one thing: it' true that no one expected Zapatero to win the elections. I can't say I think they expected it themselves. However, saying "it did not bring much attention" is an utter lie, it being the main opposition party. The part about ending its membership of the West doesn't say much to me either, but it doesn't talk about any specific events anyway so whatever.

Oh, he has never called Bush a dickhead, or Kerry the Ketchup Queen, or openly supported anyone who did. And believe me, not many people like Bush here in Spain but we really don't have anything against Kerry, so I can't really see the point here.


By the moment the Benarroch couple had left the table to express their regrets, Zapatero was explaining his lack of surprise about the Holocaust: according to the people present, Zapatero claimed to understand the Nazis.

There's nothing true here, NOTHING. Zapatero has never said such a thing, and the Catalan politician Aleix Vidal-Quadras has NEVER claimed that something like this has ever happened. I mean, where are the links? Where are the quotes? Can anyone show me a hint that this has actually ever happened?

We Spaniards are not keen on the Holocaust, you know. Had we known our president had said he understood the nazis, he wouldn't be our president anymore.


The recent clashes with Hizbullah, however, have promoted the longest and hardest diatribes against Israel, forcing Zapatero to loose a cover for what it was long known in Spanish politics: His hate towards Israel, Jews and Zionism.

It doesn't take to be very sharp to realize that criticism towards a Government is the same as hating a country, a people, a religion or whatever you want to insert here. But in case there's any doubt, four days ago the Spanish Jew Communities federation (and more precisely its president, Jacobo Israel Garzón) forwarded a message to our FM saying, basically, that it was UNCONCEIVABLE that anyone described the Spanish Government as antisemite. Here:

http://www.europapress.es/europa2003/noticia.aspx?cod=20060720214710&tabID=1&ch=66

We're talking about the same people who, according to this thread, were seeing "hard times ahead" aren't we? Well they look quite supportive to my eyes.


Zapatero showed at last his true colours: At the closing of the meeting he let the teenagers take pictures of him wearing a Palestinian kaffiyah.

This is true actually, he did that and raised a lot of controversy by doing that.


Although according to Zapatero, Hizbullah and Israel are the same thing, he offers no words of condemnation for the Party of Allah, spending 100 percent of the time explaining, in a rather twisted way, that Israel should let Hizbullah kill Israelis.

This isn't true either, the Spanish Government has condemned Hizbulla's attacks.

http://es.news.yahoo.com/19072006/4/psoe-llama-israel-cesar-ataques-masivos-condena-acciones-hezbola-lamenta.html

http://www.periodistadigital.com/ultima_hora/object.php?o=415874



I really don't feel like commenting any more of the article unless I'm required to, but I will quote which I think is the biggest pile of S.H.I.T. I've read in ages:


The Sepharad story is clearly over, but nobody expected it would be by accident. If you are thinking about visiting Spain, think it twice. You may not leave easily.

We don't eat Jews yet, thank you.

[Mercury]

Medio,

The article you have posted contains several accusations which do not seem to be backed up by evidence (not to mention some gross exagerations). I'm not a big fun of the spanish foreign policy either, but that does not mean I (or any sensible person) would believe any accusation against their goverment. Unless you want your credibilty drop to Al-Jazeera level, I think you should either provide some evidence (beyond citing one person nobody heard about) about Zapatero statements or retract.

To Bou,

Welcome to the forum.

[Bou]

To Bou,

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome.

I have to take something back. Vidal-Quadras did claim to "have been told" that, during a supper with a couple of Jew furriers (the Benarrochs) he had a very strong argument with them. Mr. Benarroch then left (always according to mr. Vidal-Quadras's story) and Zapatero said that "sometimes one understands even that some people can justify the Holocaust".

You can listen to the whole story here (http://semanarioalba.com/loudblog/audio/podcast-2005-11-30-55578.mp3). After finishing his story, Vidal-Quadras says he got it "through a text".

So it can be as believable as you want it to be, like any other Internet rumours. Personally I wouldn't give it any credit, seeing how during the last year the fabrication of rumours against the governing party (like the one where they teamed up with the Basque terrorist group ETA, Al Qaeda and the Spanish police force to commit the 11-M strikes) has been a major weapon of the Spanish opposition.

But hey, you're free to do so.



Just want to add:


according to the people present, Zapatero claimed to understand the Nazis

Still a lie. Vidal-Quadras didn't get the story from any of the present, neither have anyone who might have been there supported it. So? As I said, you're free to believe it.

[Bou]

By the way:


Lol, what a parasite !

Maybe you ignore that when Zapatero became PM, he tolds Ariel Sharon he was worried not to have been congratulated. Because Zapatero (shoemaker) was supposedly a name of jewish origin... What a wanker...

I've been looking this up too, an I have only been able to find reference to it on a handful of forums. What the say is that Zapatero claimed to be Jew before FM Silvan Shalom, and therefore he felt "mildly worried" to "very offended" (depending on the version you read) about Ariel Sharon not ringing him for congratulations.

That's the good thing about the rumours about Zapatero, you have plenty to choose from. He can be a Jew-wannabe or a Jew-hater, depending on what you hate the most.

[golani]

By the way:



I've been looking this up too, an I have only been able to find reference to it on a handful of forums. What the say is that Zapatero claimed to be Jew before FM Silvan Shalom, and therefore he felt "mildly worried" to "very offended" (depending on the version you read) about Ariel Sharon not ringing him for congratulations.

That's the good thing about the rumours about Zapatero, you have plenty to choose from. He can be a Jew-wannabe or a Jew-hater, depending on what you hate the most.

Welcome to our forum
Para mi ,es siempre un placer de acoger a un companero de espana
Le deseo lo mejor en este forum,
Amistad de un ebreo a un ciudadano espanol,

Golani :D

[Nutts]

How many terrorist atrocities like Madrid must there be before Zapatero and other Spanish antisemitic leftists understand that Islamic Nazists threatens the whole civilised world?

As soon as the trains were bombed, the Spanish government surrendered to islamofascistic terrorism... it was quite obvious. They are now ruled and commanded by those seeking the destruction of the civilized world. The French President have taught the Spanish well!

It is so annoying... here in France the left sees Islam as 'cute', and Jews as 'retrograde'...

[BlueEyedJew]

nutts: it is so annoying... here in France the left sees Islam as 'cute', and Jews as 'retrograde'...


true nutts, and this ties in with a general Romantic vision of the struggling "noble" Arab who experiences nothing but opression from the modern, decadent Israelis... France likes the idea of taking the side of the "victims" in a screwed up missguided version of ""liberté, égalité et fraternité"

[Bou]

As soon as the trains were bombed, the Spanish government surrendered to islamofascistic terrorism... it was quite obvious.

Can you actually back that opinion up with a single fact, or are you just bullting us for the fun of it?

Go ahead, I'd like you to teach me about my country's recent history.


Gracias por la bienvenida, golani, la cordialidad es mutua :)

[Mil]

You mean the one country which was ruled by a Nazi till some twenty years ago?

But of course Franco can be translated into Finkelstein and then converted into a Zionist conspiracy by the wider masses.

There is barely any Jewish presence left in Spain, though lots of artifacts..... Which is a good thing. I even heard that apparently even Lopez Labrador and Livingstone claimed something of being Jewish - so Zapatero is on the recent hype. What's next? Mass circumcision in the UN?

[Mediocrates]

Can you actually back that opinion up with a single fact, or are you just bullting us for the fun of it?


Well you voted out your own government and replaced them with a new group who's first action was to acceed to demands to leave Iraq. Subsequently your new leaders can't get enough photo ops to be seen with Palestinians, sporting Palestinian headgarb and mouthing the same pathetic nonsense of the PA. I can appreciate the dance you have to play but you're pretty damn obvious about it.

[Bou]

Well you voted out your own government and replaced them with a new group who's first action was to acceed to demands to leave Iraq.

Yeah, you're right, they acceeded to our people's demands. Roughly 90% of the Spanish were against the war, and we had demonstrations as big as we hadn't seen since Tejero's strike, and counting among the biggest in all of Europe. You can read this report (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/02/15/internacional/1045342353.html) about it if you know some Spanish.

Zapatero knew this, and he had repeatedly promised to withdraw our troops from Iraq long before the bombings. Leaving Iraq was the first thing that was expected from him, you know, it's not like he suddenly chickened out.

About us kicking out the PP, that is a story. People were very polarized about this party because they had taken some very unpopular measures (war on Iraq being among them). When the bombings took place, there was a lot of confusion about who had committed them and the Government -in fear of a political punishment- chose to blame ETA during three days in spite of the growing informations pointing to Al Qaeda. This ultimately led to thousands of people spontaneously demonstrating in front of the party's buildings the night before the elections, demanding to know the truth.

I can give you further evidence of what I'm saying if you're interested in the issue, but as you see, it's not like the Spanish were all for the war and suddenly changed their minds because of the bombings. We never wanted to be in Iraq, we certainly didn't acceed to anyone's demands and I'm quite sure we're not playing any dance.

I hope I've made things a bit clearer to you guys.

[Semsem]

The Spanish are the children of the Inquisition. I have been to Spain a lot and many lived in Britain. They committed genocide against the Jews and in a recent study they ranked among the most antisemitic in Europe.

We all know that Zapatero who wore a Palestinian scarf is a raving antisemite and so is Monteneros the Foreign Minister an Israel hater. He bullied the Jewish Community in Spain because some leaders accused that bimbo Zapetero of being an antisemite.

The Spanish are very primitive and hate Jews. They will deny it. Have you ever met an antisemite who admits it?

Also it took Spain 30 years to even recognise Israel. That speaks for itself. Instead of hating Jews and Israel they should watch out for El Quaida. They want Andulasia back to be under Moslem control.

[Bou]

The Spanish are the children of the Inquisition.

Yeah which was like 500 years ago, thanks for reminding me. We might be the grand-grand-grand-children of the Inquisition if you push me, actually. Every country has its history and not all of them is as bright as Israel's. Where were the USA 500 years ago BTW? Hell, where were they 200 years ago? Employing black slaves on their cotton fields? Should we jump your sheete too, then, and call you the children of slavery?


I have been to Spain a lot and many lived in Britain. They committed genocide against the Jews and in a recent study they ranked among the most antisemitic in Europe.

Sure, can you show me that study? Cause I've lived in Britain too and I've been often refered to as a "spic", but I have never -not a single time- heard a single person here in Spain talk badly about the Jews or do a single thing that suggested that they didn't like them. But of course this is the dance I have to play, I mean, how could a raving Spanish antisemite like me admit his crimes against Jewdom?


The Spanish are very primitive and hate Jews. They will deny it. Have you ever met an antisemite who admits it?

Yeah sure, guess that pretty much settles the issue and proves we're all antisemites. I hope that's not the way they judge people in your country, man. Any black guy could be accused of being a pedophile tomorrow, and there'd be no denying it. I mean, have you ever met a pedophile who admits it? Is that how you guys judge people?


We all know that Zapatero who wore a Palestinian scarf is a raving antisemite and so is Monteneros the Foreign Minister an Israel hater.

Yeah, we all know, we all have read the big piece of propagandistic bullsheete that started the thread. No real facts to back it up actually, but "we all know".

We have no Minister by the name of Monteneros, by the way, but I'm sure he'd be a Jew hater too if we did.


He bullied the Jewish Community in Spain because some leaders accused that bimbo Zapetero of being an antisemite.

Quite the opposite, the Jewish Community in Spain have never accused Zapatero of being an antisemite. In fact, they publicly stated that it was unconceivable (http://www.europapress.es/europa2003/noticia.aspx?cod=20060720214710&tabID=1&ch=66) to say such a thing.

In short, I fail to see the point to your message. You haven't stated a single fact, you just told us how *you* think *we* are. And you obviously have no idea how we are.

[Mil]

I find it funny of how Euros "warry" about Jewish relations with almost non-existent European Jewish communities.

Spain, who cares!!!!

[Mercury]

Bou,

I don't want to make an impression that I second all the anti-spanish rhetorics here, but I would like you to comment on the results of this survey (in particular on the comparison between the results in Spain and in the rest of Western European countries).

I'm also interested to know what do you think about the drive for canonization of Ferdinand and Isabella.

Thanks

[Bou]

Hi Mercury.


I don't want to make an impression that I second all the anti-spanish rhetorics here, but I would like you to comment on the results of this survey (in particular on the comparison between the results in Spain and in the rest of Western European countries).

Really sorry, but I don't know what survey you're talking about. Could you be more specific or post a link to it?

If you've already done and I missed it please point me to it.


I'm also interested to know what do you think about the drive for canonization of Ferdinand and Isabella.

If you ask me about my particular opinion... I'm not a Catholic so I couldn't care less about the issue. If you feel interested in either my opinion about the historical characters, or the present Spanish Catholic Church, please just ask.

Thanks and good night.

[Semsem]

As usual the Spanish throw asside the Spanish Inquisition as if it "was really no big deal." It was for us Jews a "catastrophe". The 2nd biggest since we were expelled from Israel in 130AD.

As to Monteneros not existing, he is your NAZI SPANISH Foreign Minister and JEW HATER. Even if I misspelt this jerk's name you know who I meant.
All you have to do is read his Antisemitic garbage he wrote in the Wall Street Journal.

As usual you deny that not one Spaniard is antisemitic. The fact that it took Spain over 30 years to recognise the Jewish State speaks for itself.

The Jewish Community in Spain were bullied by the Spanish Government to deny that this "primitive" country is run by Fascist Antisemites.

So what? I lived in Egypt and the Chief Rabbi was forced to say that the Jews of Egypt were well treated.

The canonisation of that NAZI WITCH Queen Isabella, confirms the backwardness of Spain.
Watch out: Your El Quaida friends plan to take over Andulasia.

[Mercury]

Hi Mercury.



Really sorry, but I don't know what survey you're talking about. Could you be more specific or post a link to it?

If you've already done and I missed it please point me to it.


Sorry, my mistake.

Here is the link:

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4726_13.htm



I'm not a Catholic so I couldn't care less about the issue.

So you aren't a "real" spaniard then :)
Then I'll just have to settle for your opinion about the characters (and how it compares with the opinions of the "typical spaniards").
Btw, which part of Spain you are from?

[Bou]

Hi Mercury.


Here is the link:

Thanks. After reading the survey's results, I'm having a hard time dealing with them. As Mil kindly pointed, we were under a dictator's rule until hardly 30 years ago, who did promote hatred against jews in Spain during his rule's early years. However, we saw a huge social transformation during Franco's latter years and after his death.

So the only way I can take the survey is accurate is to assume that they surveyed sixty-year-olds mostly.

And honestly, the question about the Jews' responsibility in Christ's death made me laugh out loud, you have to be a tight-a$$ed zealot to ask or answer that question without a smile on your face.


So you aren't a "real" spaniard then :)

What was that? Mind you, Spain is a non-denominational state. We have a majority of Catholics just because most of us have been baptished -including myself- and it's true that most people take a Catholic wedding because it's traditional, but otherwise most middle-age, middle-class Spaniards don't give a damn what the Pope says or who gets canonized.


Then I'll just have to settle for your opinion about the characters (and how it compares with the opinions of the "typical spaniards").

I see them as what they are... historical characters. Spain ruled the World those days and thus committed lots of crimes, just as the USA is doing today. They slaughtered American natives and spoiled their wealth, and you can bet we Spaniards are not proud about it... but there's no reason why we should dwell on it five centuries later.

As for anyone thinking that I' throwing aside all the atrocities that happened, or that I'm somehow implying that it was no deal... please, get real and get over it already. It was a disaster for our economy too, but that stuff is 500 years old. I'm not gonna cry over it.


Btw, which part of Spain you are from?

I'm from Valencia.




By the way, I'd like to remark -since you brought up Franco's antisemitic regime- that Zapatero's party took down (http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/147630/0/retiran/estatua/franco/) Franco's statues last year. And guess who opposed to it? Bush's friends the People's Party (http://servicios.elcorreodigital.com/vizcaya/pg060826/prensa/noticias/Politica/200608/26/VIZ-POL-037.html).



And... sorry to edit again, but I just noticed this:


Watch out: Your El Quaida friends plan to take over Andulasia.

Surely you mean your president's (http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/bin_laden_ties.html) friends, mate. We 're not friends of those killers.

[Mercury]

So the only way I can take the survey is accurate is to assume that they surveyed sixty-year-olds mostly.
Are you suggesting that ADL had a secret purpose of tarnishing Spain's reputation, so they "fixed" the numbers by chosing a non-representative sample for the survey?


And honestly, the question about the Jews' responsibility in Christ's death made me laugh out loud, you have to be a tight-a$$ed zealot to ask or answer that question without a smile on your face.

I guess this makes a zealot out of me too. Having grown up in a country where many (if not most) people believed in our responsibilty for Christ's death, world jewish conspiracy etc., I do not smile when I hear such questions.


What was that? Mind you, Spain is a non-denominational state.
"That" was supposed to be a joke (a smiley face was supposed to insure that you interpret it as such).



I see them as what they are... historical characters. Spain ruled the World those days and thus committed lots of crimes, just as the USA is doing today. They slaughtered American natives and spoiled their wealth, and you can bet we Spaniards are not proud about it... but there's no reason why we should dwell on it five centuries later.

Judging by one spanish movie I've seen, as well as by petitions from Spain to canonize this royal couple, I suspect that lots of spanish people may not share your feelings about them.
Btw, have I understood correctly that you believe spanish catholics behaviour vs indians, jews and muslims at the time was no worse than that of USA now?



I do not wish to offend you, but could it be that after reading all the anti-spanish tirades (some completely foolish) on this forum you are being overly defensive and try to embelish your country a bit?




By the way, I'd like to remark -since you brought up Franco's antisemitic regime

When did I do that?

[Bou]

Are you suggesting that ADL had a secret purpose of tarnishing Spain's reputation, so they "fixed" the numbers by chosing a non-representative sample for the survey?

Nope. I'm openly saying that the survey's results don't match my day-by-day experience and I'm explaining the reasons why.

As for ADL fixing the numbers, I'm not accusing them of anything but that happens everyday: look at this survey company who used to work for Bush's campaigns, they've been known to have interviewed dogs and cats. Look at the survey where prices in Spain had not gone up since our entering the Euro. I mean, you can make a survey say whatever you want, and I somehow doubt that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is gonna say that everyone loves Jews, at least if they're a bit like the Anti-Whatever groups we have here in Spain.


I guess this makes a zealot out of me too. Having grown up in a country where many (if not most) people believed in our responsibilty for Christ's death, world jewish conspiracy etc., I do not smile when I hear such questions.

Well you've got my sympathy, but that really seems a joke from here. I can't take seriously anyone who says Jews are to blame for Christ's death, I mean, wasn't Christ MEANT to die?

That's common sense, FFS.


"That" was supposed to be a joke (a smiley face was supposed to insure that you interpret it as such).

Sorry to have misinterpreted you, cultural gap I suppose. I've read so much nonsense in this thread I no longer know who's being serious and who's not.


Judging by one spanish movie I've seen, as well as by petitions from Spain to canonize this royal couple, I suspect that lots of spanish people may not share your feelings about them.

Can I ask what movie was that?

Also, I don't know how many people are needed to raise one of those petitions but frankly, there have been petitions to canonize Rocio Jurado, a Spanish folk singer who used to appear on the yellow press and died earlier this year... so you'll excuse me if I take those petitions lightly.


Btw, have I understood correctly that you believe spanish catholics behaviour vs indians, jews and muslims at the time was no worse than that of USA now?

Yes, that's roughly what I'm saying.


I do not wish to offend you, but could it be that after reading all the anti-spanish tirades (some completely foolish) on this forum you are being overly defensive and try to embelish your country a bit?

If you mean my country today, you may be right. After seeing so much bashing I might inadvertedly be trying to compensate. I'm no patriot though, so I'm trying to stick to the facts.

If you mean I'm trying what my country did 500 years ago, you're plain wrong. I despise what they did and there's no way I'm gonna advocate for that.


When did I do that?

Sorry, that was not intended for you.

[Theodikritis]

This is true actually, he did that and raised a lot of controversy by doing that.


Can you show me when or where I have not seen any trace of it being controversal in Spain itself.

[Bou]

Can you show me when or where I have not seen any trace of it being controversal in Spain itself.

Well this (http://www.informativos.telecinco.es/israel/libano/violencia/dn_28831.htm) is the first link I found, but you could also google "zapatero kufiya" or read Moratinos's response on the issue (http://www.informativos.telecinco.es/moratinos/antisemitismo/zapatero/dn_28859.htm):


Moratinos negó asimismo que se puedan extraer conclusiones polÃÂticas de la fotografÃÂa, publicada hoy por la prensa, en la que Zapatero luce una "kufiya" -pañuelo palestino-, ya que, a su juicio, se trató de un mero "gesto de amistad ante los jóvenes que trasladaron al presidente un pañuelo que tenÃÂan en la mano" y la imagen "no tiene mayor trascendencia".

El ministro defendió la oportunidad del gesto y recordó que él también se ha fotografiado con la "kippa" judÃÂa en sus visitas al Muro de las Lamentaciones de Jerusalén, al igual que hará Zapatero cuando acuda a ese lugar, y no por ello se es "más pro-israelÃÂ", como tampoco se es "más pro-palestino" por llevar una "kufiya".

"No significa nada, simplemente es un elemento distintivo de unos o de otros", insistió el titular de Exteriores, después de recalcar que el gesto de Zapatero se enmarcó en "un acto de juventud", en alusión al hecho de que tuvo lugar durante el Festival Internacional de las Juventudes Socialistas.

It was very commented on TV too, but of course there's no way I can prove that to you.

[Gunther]

As an American of partially Spanish decent I find these comments to be to but it mildly, provocative. The charges that Spain today is run by Fascist is absurd, what Fascist runs for the Socialist party and says he wants to lead a sexual revolution.

How am I a child of the inquisition. It happened before I was born, I have no responsibility for what happened, neither does anyone else alive now. As far as primitiveness Spain is by relative ness to the rest of Europe a poor country, that does not mean primitive. The main reason people refer to it as that is to discredit the Catholic Church as Spain is a traditional Catholic nation, although that is changing.

Another comment that shows a very small understanding the "NAZI WICHT ISABEL". That comment shows a very large lack of historic objectivity. Certainly much tragedy and evil happened under Isabella and Ferdinand, the loss of the nations Jews being one of them, so many of them being well educated and having contributed to Spanish culture. But good also happened, Spain was one once again, the centuries of conflict with the Almohads was over, the humiliation of occupation was over, and Spain was now a true power. As far as personal achievements she was a pious individual and helped the poor of Spain and tried to protect Native Americans in her colonies, and like all humans, She had her faults.

[Theodikritis]

Well this (http://www.informativos.telecinco.es/israel/libano/violencia/dn_28831.htm) is the first link I found, but you could also google "zapatero kufiya" or read Moratinos's response on the issue (http://www.informativos.telecinco.es/moratinos/antisemitismo/zapatero/dn_28859.htm):



It was very commented on TV too, but of course there's no way I can prove that to you.

Thanks Bou, I believe you, the especially funny thing about this thread is that the Spanish section of the Catholic Church is anti-Zapetero.

Gunther and Bou

Why are Spainiards nostalgic about Almohad Occupation?

[Bou]

Why are Spainiards nostalgic about Almohad Occupation?

I really don't think anyone in Spain is nostalgic about that... maybe some random people, but definitely not a representative fraction. Where did you get that idea?


the especially funny thing about this thread is that the Spanish section of the Catholic Church is anti-Zapetero.

You're totally right there, he has been bashed by the Church and the opposition alike because of some measures he applied that the Church took as attacks, such as the grades of the (voluntary) religion subject not counting for students' overall grades. So if it's the Spanish Catholic Church you don't like, you should know that the rightist are much closer to them. Just see the international meeting with the Pope that they set up with public money here at Valencia, much to the distress of valencian agnostics like myself.

I know I'm sounding like Zapatero's fan but I'm not, I didn't even vote for him and there're lots of things I don't like in the way he governs. It's just I've seen so much BS here I thought it was not fair.

[Mercury]

But good also happened, Spain was one once again, the centuries of conflict with the Almohads was over, the humiliation of occupation was over, and Spain was now a true power.

I really like this comment. When spanish catholics, in their quest for land and glory, evict muslims and jews from Granada where they have lived for more than seven hundred years, this is called "the humiliation of occupation was over". When jews, in their quest for a tiny bit of land of their own, come to the country of their ancestors and actually raise the living standards of its current inhabitants, this is called an illegal invasion/apartheid/genocide/...

[Gunther]

I do not think any people are nastalgic about being occupide. I do think it is a source of pride for though that they survived as a nation dispite losing 90% of thier country of which were the most hospitable. Every nation and people have thier nastalgias or rememberence about the past. On this forum I have for instance heard people make reference to ancient isreal three thousand years ago. I think the main reason nations have it is to create a certain amount of community feeling. In American their are Native Americans who celebrate wars that they LOST against the US government, in the Southern United states people celebrate the civil war even though they LOST, nastalgia usually does not make much sense.