Trouble in Arafatistan

[NewsGuy]

Today was an interesting day in Arafat's brutal and corrupt dictatorship. Thousands of Palestinians gathered to demonstrate their discontent in front of the Ra'is' Gaza headquarters. "Work!," "Bread!" they demanded. It seems that the economic disaster brought upon the Palestinians by Arafat and other terrorist leaders is finally reaching critical levels. With nearly 80% unemployment among Palestinians, it is no surprise that the people are angry -- and with good reason.

And so the crowd of 4,000 enraged Gazans broke through the gates of Arafat's compound, while the dictator's guards looked on without lifting a finger. Arafat himself, the cause of the people's misery, was still sitting in Ramallah scheming to maintain his iron grip on the unemployed and impoverished Palestinian people. At the same time, European nations announced that they would support Arafat if "elected" again.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
At the same time, European nations announced that they would support Arafat if "elected" again. I wonder whether the "if" represents a slight progress.

[L@mplighterM]

A civil war would do nicely.

[cerulean]

With nearly 80% unemployment among Palestinians, it is no surprise that the people are angry -- and with good reason.

This is an area that I don't know much about--the economic setup in Gaza. Literally how are familiies supporting themselves? How does the welfare infrastructure work? I recall reading a while back that 70% of the Gaza population is on food programs, but I don't have any idea what that means. Presumably no family is at risk of eviction for non-payment of rent (or are they), but what would be the typical expenses of a family in Gaza, and what is the typical income?

Birth rates in Gaza are greater than seven children per woman. I quoted elsewhere from this source:
From
http://www.popcouncil.org/mediacent...ses/pdr900.html

The Palestinian pattern

Many factors that typically lead to lower fertility did not have the expected effect on Palestinian birth rates. Improvements in education and health care and a high rate of urbanization—all present in the West Bank and Gaza territories— typically lead to reduced fertility. According to Fargues, all these factors have been neutralized by the state of belligerence and its side effects: in this case, economic hardship and migration of the labor force to the oil-rich countries of the Gulf. Under these conditions, one would have expected the norm of a large family to wane, given the need to reduce the number of dependents. But the financial consequences of large families are mitigated by aid from organizations such as the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the Palestine Liberation Organization, and Hamas, which ensure that childrearing costs do not weigh directly on the family alone.

Presuming this is the case, I'd be curious how much each of UNWRA, the PLO, and Hamas each contribute to a typical family's upkeep.

[sharonbn]

For me, reading the article about the demonstration outside Arafat's HQ in ynet was a boost of optimism :)

maybe, just maybe, this is "not the end, but the beginning of the end" of Arafat. Like I said in other threads, I believe it is the Palestinian people themselves that should cast arafat aside and replace him with a more honest and moderate leadership.

ynet qoutes Israeli official diplomatic sources saying "The demonstration of the unemployed in Gaza is the beginning of a new process. It may well escalate to the point where Arafat will have to resign."

The same sources estimate that Arafat's popularity has plunged to an all time low 30%.

Another surprising news item comes from the labour party general assembly meeting that opened this evening (Monday, July 1st). Foreign affairs minister, Shimon Peres, provided the evening's headlines in his speech by declaring that Arafat is no longer a valid partner for future negotiations.
Peres said "The American president calls upon Israel to execute actual steps to support the establishment of a Palestinian state. He [the American President] ruled Arafat out as a suitable partner for peace negotiations, and we should look for an alternative partner."
The assembly will last two days and will focus on the rivalry between defense minister Fuad Ben Eliezer and KM Haim Ramon over the leadership of the party. Both men have outlined their plans for dealing with Palestinian terrorism and resuming peace talks.

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
A civil war would do nicely.

I really don't think Israelis want to find themselves in a caretaker position in Palestinian territory.

[L@mplighterM]

Here’s an interesting poll that indicates that 51% of Arabs under 20 want to immigrate to the west, the survey was conducted in 22 Arab countries. I might note that the under 20 equals 38% of the total population of 280 million.

The reason they give is that they feel that their countries are not living up to their full potential. That’s an understatement if I ever heard one.

I imagine that the WB and GS are included in the poll.

Article in Danish:
FN: Unge arabere vil til Vesten
51 procent af unge arabere under 20 år vil forlade deres hjemlande til fordel for et land i Vesteuropa eller USA. Det viser tal fra en ny FN-rapport, der også viser, at de unge udgør 38 procent af hele den arabiske befolkning på 280 millioner, skriver Politiken i dag.

http://www.berlingske.dk/artikel:aid=196234/
Hell that’s only about 106.4 million. If its assumed that half is females and they each have ONLY six kids that’ll equal about 414 million in 20 years. Supposing 50-80% turn out to be Fundamentalists and or Extremist it doesn’t take much imagination to visualize what the future will be like.


I can just imagine a picture of Mohammed on the Greenbacks. “In Allah we Trust”

E.plurum Adolph.

Good Night!

PS


Divert all your investments to potato sack futures.

[cerulean]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/02/international/middleeast/02ARAB.html

A blunt new report by Arab intellectuals commissioned by the United Nations warns that Arab societies are being crippled by a lack of political freedom, the repression of women and an isolation from the world of ideas that stifles creativity.

The survey, the Arab Human Development Report 2002, will be released today in Cairo.

The report notes that while oil income has transformed the landscapes of some Arab countries, the region remains "richer than it is developed." Per capita income growth has shrunk in the last 20 years to a level just above that of sub-Saharan Africa. Productivity is declining. Research and development are weak or nonexistent. Science and technology are dormant.

Intellectuals flee a stultifying — if not repressive — political and social environment, it says.

Arab women, the report found, are almost universally denied advancement. Half of them still cannot read or write. The maternal mortality rate is double that of Latin America and four times that of East Asia.
...

[Mediocrates]

Plus, economically they don't make anything. They pump oil and that's about it. They don't even refine their own product because there aren't enough skilled people to run the processes. Ok so here's the score sheet:


Light industry - point to anything, any small appliance, shirt, shoe, car part, window, textile (other than that fabulous Bokhara you simply MUST have) made in an Arab country.

Media - any news, broadcast, entertainment, movie, music you consume? (Ok there are two Iranian movies in Blockbuster)

Heavy industry - are there any Arab made drillbits, mining equipment, airplanes or steel?

Food - ok that's a gimme, Arab countries do export certain fruits, nuts, grains.

Ideas - read any good Arab books recently?

Education - how many western students are enrolled in Arab universities?

Patents - how many patents were filed based on work done in Arab countries in the last 50 years?

The only word that comes to mind is "Parasitic".

[cerulean]

This site, which appears to be Hamas-influenced or run, reported on the demonstration, including allegations of corruption in the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/daily_news/index.htm#2

(The rest of the site is quite fascinating from a propaganda point of view as well.)

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
The only word that comes to mind is "Parasitic". Who is the host?

[Mediocrates]

According to a report on NPR today there were 330 books published in or translated into Arabic last year. The category is 'creative works' eg. no tech manuals and purely functional utilitarian books. Moreover 0.06% of the population in Arab countries has access to the internet.

[L@mplighterM]

I distinctly heard President Bush mention how wonderful Islam was/is and how it’s contributed to the development of civilization. Personally I couldn’t care less about Muslim countries and I wouldn’t invest a nickel there.
Hey! Why complain they generate work in the west. People work so they can send them a piece of the action. Be Happy! It’s only money.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by sharonbn Another surprising news item comes from the labour party general assembly meeting that opened this evening (Monday, July 1st). Foreign affairs minister, Shimon Peres, provided the evening's headlines in his speech by declaring that Arafat is no longer a valid partner for future negotiations. Now that's progress. :)

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps I really don't think Israelis want to find themselves in a caretaker position in Palestinian territory. You mean like they are now? It seems to me that Israel taking the title of "caretaker" would mean business as usual.

[cerulean]

Some of the usual half-truths regarding Israel, of course, but an interesting message otherwise.

Arafat's despotism has caused us Palestinians enough harm
By Omar Karsou
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/07/03/do0301.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2002/07/03/ixopinion.html
...
Suddenly, there is a good deal of talk about reform and elections in Palestine. That is all very well. But democracy is not just a simple practice of electing a leader. After all, the Soviet Union held elections regularly, and Cubans go to the polls every five years. Before elections are held in Palestine, we must ensure that all other elements of a free society are in place: freedom of the press; freedom to hold political rallies; equal time on state-run media.

More important, we must change our electoral system. The present one was adopted to produce a strong man in power - a dictatorial government was the inevitable result. To fall for the same trap would be a national disaster. ..

[elke]

Well, it's a beginning. It's interesting to see that much of this kind of overt criticism has come out in the wake of the Bush's speech.

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by JustPat
You mean like they are now? It seems to me that Israel taking the title of "caretaker" would mean business as usual.


But not entirely at the moment. If Israel launches a full invasion of Palestinian land then it will be a caretaker.

[James]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps


I really don't think Israelis want to find themselves in a caretaker position in Palestinian territory.


I think Israel would be happy to handle "caretaker" responsibilities in reguard to their Enemy. Israel is more than qualified to defeat anything waring against them.

[cerulean]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716592414

Jul. 3, 2002
UPDATE: Hamas protests outside PA police headquarters
By THE JERUSALEM POST INTERNET STAFF

Hundreds of Hamas activists are protesting outside the Palestinian Authority police headquarters in Rafiah.

The protesters are demanding the release of a young member of Hamas who is suspected of collaborating with Israel.

======
I hope all the peace activists are going to act to prevent this young man from meeting the same fate as other suspected collaborators.

[Mediocrates]

I hope they burn each other down all in the name of legitimate resistance to oppression you understand. How can the poor Palistanians be expected to honor laws when they are being oppressed oh yea mightily by their PA overlords.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
For me, reading the article about the demonstration outside Arafat's HQ in ynet was a boost of optimism :)
Agreed. It is good news that even a tiny percentage of the Palestinians care about making a living and not just about making bombs. Hopefully, in the next generation, the Palestinian people will reject terrorism in favor of improving their standard of living. If this happens, then real peace will be possible.


ynet qoutes Israeli official diplomatic sources saying "The demonstration of the unemployed in Gaza is the beginning of a new process. It may well escalate to the point where Arafat will have to resign."

I wish it were true, but I doubt it. The more likely scenario for Arafat's resignation would be from his worsening health problems.


Another surprising news item comes from the labour party general assembly meeting that opened this evening (Monday, July 1st). Foreign affairs minister, Shimon Peres, provided the evening's headlines in his speech by declaring that Arafat is no longer a valid partner for future negotiations.
Peres said "The American president calls upon Israel to execute actual steps to support the establishment of a Palestinian state. He [the American President] ruled Arafat out as a suitable partner for peace negotiations, and we should look for an alternative partner."

ok, it looks like, once again, Israel has taken the high-road and has already reduced curfews in a few Palestinian-held towns. Also, the government agreed to allow 5,000 Palestinians into Israel to work. These steps were recommended by Sharon and by the security council to improve the lives of the Palestinians. Additionally, 11 Jewish settlements were dismantled, with about 10 more scheduled to be dismantled later this week.

Hopefully, the U.S. should be satisfied with these Israeli concessions. Now we'll see what Israel gets in return from the Palestinians.


The assembly will last two days and will focus on the rivalry between defense minister Fuad Ben Eliezer and KM Haim Ramon over the leadership of the party. Both men have outlined their plans for dealing with Palestinian terrorism and resuming peace talks.

True, and also let's not forget about Burg and Ben Ami. From the amount of public animosity displayed, it looks like the Labour party is in big trouble, without a clear leader to navigate the ship.

The party's best hope, IMO, is a return of Barak. He indicated yesterday that "if called to return," he would agree.

Then again, I personally would not shed a tear for the weakened and fractured Labour party.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
... and also let's not forget about Burg and Ben Ami. From the amount of public animosity displayed, it looks like the Labour party is in big trouble, without a clear leader to navigate the ship.

Ben Ami looks like is going to retire from political life and move to private business. He is demanding that the Labour party will leave the government by Sept. or else he will leave.

Burg had his contest vs. Ben Eliezer back in June 2001 and lost. Currently, he tags along after Ramon. He also called for the party to leave the government (altough he did not make any ultimatom)

I seriously doubt that Barak will make a come back before 2004 or after that. In his interview to Israel channel 1, he said he is in no hurry. He pointed out that he will be in Sharon's age at 2016 and Peres' age in 2021. I suspect he will come back long before these dates, but not for the upcoming elections of 2003.

regarding the grim situation of the Labour party, it is true its popularity and prospects have sunk. Yet, lets not forget that the Likud party was in similar situation after 1999 elections and the resignation of Netanyahu. No one then foresaw Sharon as PM less than two years away.... Political events have proven to be surprising to say the least...

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
regarding the grim situation of the Labour party, it is true its popularity and prospects have sunk. Yet, lets not forget that the Likud party was in similar situation after 1999 elections and the resignation of Netanyahu. No one then foresaw Sharon as PM less than two years away.... Political events have proven to be surprising to say the least...

100% true.

But I wouldn't count out Barak just yet for 2003, unless of course, he needs to stay in the private sector to pay off his new Kfar Shmaryahu villa. :)

[James]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


100% true.

But I wouldn't count out Barak just yet for 2003, unless of course, he needs to stay in the private sector to pay off his new Kfar Shmaryahu villa. :)

Newsguy, what do you think about Netanyahu returning to power? Maybe he can break the current stalemate. What do you think? I admit, i like Sharon and think he understands current situation better than most.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by James
Newsguy, what do you think about Netanyahu returning to power? Maybe he can break the current stalemate. What do you think? I admit, i like Sharon and think he understands current situation better than most. I have to wonder if any of the younger generation has a clear understanding of the current conflict. Sharon, Peres and their contemporaries can see today's events in light of the complete modern history of Israel. Can Netanyahu or others of the first generation removed from the War for Independence truly appreciate what it has taken to get to this point or the resolve that kept Israel from being driven into the sea?

In the up and coming leadership of Israel, is there a Dayan, a ben Gurion, or any other "hero" who can lead Israel to possessing all that G-d has promised?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by James
Newsguy, what do you think about Netanyahu returning to power? Maybe he can break the current stalemate. What do you think? I admit, i like Sharon and think he understands current situation better than most.

Hi James,

Well, I like Netanyahu, because he is a very powerful public speaker in both in the Israeli and the international media. I support his foreign politics and his domestic economics.

But Netanyahu has a potentially fatal flaw in that he is not yet able to navigate the maze of Israeli politics, where favoritism, political appointment, forced party alliances and personal egos are enough to keep most anyone out of the Prime Minister's seat. At least, these factors were what brought down the Netanyahu government in the past.

I don't know if Netanyahu has learned yet to handle the political sniping in the past few years and whether he has sufficiently reflected on the factors that brought him down.

Also, Netanyahu has a good chance of being elected in times of negotiation failure with the Palestinians accompanied by violence, or in times of dire economic depression. Netanyahu is at his best when the Israeli public is in need of a strong, uncompromising leader.

The political and economic events and the level of Palestinian violence will determine Netanyahu's chances of return to power more so than the man himself.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0705/p01s03-wome.html


Here is the intro:

Intifada fatigue hits Palestinians

More Palestinians are openly criticizing the strategy of suicide bombings and voicing mixed feelings about Arafat.

By Cameron W. Barr | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

JERUSALEM – After 21 months of open conflict, many Palestinians are rethinking two key elements of their struggle against Israel: their leader and the use of violence against Israeli civilians.
Decades of backing Yasser Arafat and years of fighting Israel with suicide bombers have not produced any positive gains, a growing number of Palestinians now say.
****************


6 or even 3 months ago the dumbass common wisdom was that Israel would never prevail and that the will of the PLO was inexaustible. That it was inevitable that all the PLO had to do was wait.

This is changing now and Arafat has created another group he has to balance against his personal goals: the Palistinians themselves. Add them to the list. I see a Mussolini future for him; shot, achilles tendons slit, a rope tied around his ankles and hung upside down in the town square, bled out like a pig. And along side his blushing bride. And when the Palistinians shrug off their tyrant suddenly the left will shut the **** up about how he is the ONLY hope for them.

[elke]

From the article posted above:

"There have been suicide bombings for years," says Fatheeyeh Budair, whose son Issa killed himself and 15 Israelis in a bombing near Tel Aviv in May. "And there have been no results so far."

Duh :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

I think that when we say that all armies are fighting the LAST war it's also true of terrorists. Arafat is fighting the LAST terrorist war. His tactics may be new but he underestimated the Israeli's resolve. In the present day people are not as prone to simply give up and give in to terrorists like they did 30 years ago.

Nearly 2 years in this last intifada and nothing, really nothing at all to show for it. We are looking at the 3rd generation of Palistinians who've lead to destruction by their leader. Keep in mind that ~50% of all Palistinians in the WB and Gaza are UNDER 16 years of age. These are not long range geo political thinkers. And what Arafat will discover is that every country is 3 meals from the next revolution.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787715031


300 Palistinians protest in Hebron against the dismissal of Jibril Rajoub.

[cerulean]

Palestinian security agents angry about threat to withhold 4,000 salaries
By MOHAMMED NAJIB
Palestinian Interior Minister Abdul Razek Yehiya has frozen the salaries of 4,000 Preventive Security Apparatus employees, Palestinian sources said.
...
"This is a very dangerous step and we intend to destroy and take over all Palestinian institutions if we do not get our salaries today," the officer said. ...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1025787832143

===
It's always important in a brutal dictatorship to keep the military and security forces happy, but Arafat seems to be missing the importance of this basic maxim.

The PA certainly has access to sufficient funds if Arafat agreed:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1146

[ibrodsky]

They think they are winning, because even now they see Israel willing and eager to relieve restrictions and slowly get back to some sort of negotiations.

The Palestinians are crying out. They are saying, in effect, "Beat us without mercy." Only when they see Israel is so mad that she has launched a campaign to totally crush terrorist groups will the Palestinians begin to understand that they have lost.

I think if President Bush were to announce that the PA is a terrorist entity that must be defeated it would help immensely. It is amazing that the U.S. is still dealing with all sorts of western leaders who think Arafat is still relevant. They need to be either shamed or intimidated into dropping their foolish love affair with the Father of Modern Terrorism.

In fact, I think the US should publicly label Arafat the Father of Modern Terrorism. Can anyone deny this is what he is?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I think if President Bush were to announce that the PA is a terrorist entity that must be defeated it would help immensely. It is amazing that the U.S. is still dealing with all sorts of western leaders who think Arafat is still relevant. They need to be either shamed or intimidated into dropping their foolish love affair with the Father of Modern Terrorism.

In fact, I think the US should publicly label Arafat the Father of Modern Terrorism. Can anyone deny this is what he is?

Supposedly the US, EU, UN, and Russia have privately agreed that publicly saying that Arafat is an obstacle to peace will make him more powerful, based on the following article.

However, Bush did not hesitate to name some other entities as terrorist groups, even if doing so risked giving them the cachet of being labeled an enemy of the US. Would the US make the Arab world (and maybe even Europe) love Arafat more if they gave him the title "Father of Modern Terrorism?"

=======
Jul. 19, 2002
Arabs withhold support for Arafat
By JANINE ZACHARIA
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1025787841404

[Mediocrates]

Well there is that "Hey! We're finally important enough to be hated and hunted down!!!" going on.

[cerulean]

http://www.detroitnews.com/2002/nation/0207/21/a04-542345.htm

Palestinian anger builds over leaders' alleged corruption
Officials are afraid full rebellion may erupt

By Mary Curtius / Los Angeles Times
JERICHO, West Bank -- Tucked away on a quiet side street, the sand-colored mansion built two years ago by Ahmed Korei, speaker of the Palestinian legislature, was meant to be a haven for the busy politician.
Instead, the 12-room home -- with its swimming pool, lush landscaping, privacy wall and guard tower -- became an embarrassing liability. Why, Palestinians began to ask publicly, were senior officials living in luxury while the continuing fight with Israel drove their people deeper into poverty?
...
Palestinians, Abu Amr said, are fed up with seeing "an official whose salary is $1,000 a month who buys property worth millions. There was a lot of stealing, extortion, bribery."
[...]
Nabil Amr, the former minister for parliamentary affairs who quit the Cabinet in April, said he left because he was disgusted by the conduct of senior officials.
"The Palestinian Authority made the mistake of distributing jobs as though they were royalties," Amr said. "Everyone from Fatah, everyone who had someone in their family who spent time in Israeli jails or who was martyred demanded jobs. And anyone who did not get a job began to talk about corruption."
...

========
Some more info about Palestinian officials' luxury homes here:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=13778#post13778

Some more info about the billions Arafat has stashed away:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16537#post16537