Enough debating, let's help Israel

[minusthejihad]

As Posted on Haaretz and Israelforum>

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=182167&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

I could be wrong, but I have searched for a way to help Israel on this board and found pieces here and there. This is the reason I found this board, I have been trying to help Israel since I realized how important this is to myown existance. I have sent out letters to politicians and I have bought goods from places like Israelshop1.com. But I think there is alot more that can be done.

I own a small computer company and love being self-employed. But I want to find ways, besides buying Israeli Bonds (which are breaking records by the way), to help Israle's economy. There was an interestin feature on 20/20 a few years back about how the owner of Puma has helped Israel for years. Until I have his capital, I need to start small.

If anyone knows of different ways to help the Israeli econmy directly, please let me know on this thread. By the way, I'm calling my cousin in Israel tonight to see if he knows more programmers to help develop some sites and applications my company is working on.

Help!

[Vic]

For useful information and more links http://www.buyblueandwhite.com :

Where to Buy Israeli Products
Popular Israeli Music
Israeli Wines and Liqueurs
Volunteer Programs and Solidarity Missions to Israel
Israeli Films

And for a practical consideration - maybe something can be done for the children: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=1054 - sponsoring vacations, rehabilitation etc.

[sharonbn]

You could also make Aliyah, you know :)
or at least come visit us.

[minusthejihad]

I plan on it. Unfortunately, times have been tough on our economy as well, and I just recently was able to find a way to support myself again. However, making Aliyah is a definate passion and I am working on it. Are there any programs out there, government or private sector supported, that promote business between US and Israeli companies. For instance, I know that Check Point Software is doing very well over here and we want to use them as a vendor. But I'm looking for something more direct and organized. Sorry if I am ignorant of this issue.

[cerulean]

This site has been mentioned elsewhere:

http://www.israel21c.org/

[Mediocrates]

Buy stock in Checkpoint software. #1 firewall software company in the world.

[minusthejihad]

This is true. Everyone in my field has been talking about it. Unfortuantely, aipac.org was probably not using it when hackers broke in and stole all the credit card data.

[Vic]

Originally posted by sharonbn
You could also make Aliyah, you know :)
or at least come visit us. The funny thing about the Aliyah is the difference between theory and practice. The candidates are more often than not met by sour-faced Jewish Agency officials and informed that the Aliyah isn't encouraged anymore - "well, we cannot deny it to you". Besides, it is an interesting question what kind of immigrants are welcome. Practical and understandable, if not entirely humane, considerations like health condition (can you really take your wheelchair-bound granny and your mentally retarded child with you without being a millionaire?), financial capital, business connections etc. of the potential olim aside - I often run into Israelis mostly of German, Polish etc. backgrounds who go off into fits of convulsive hatred at the very mention of "Russian" immigrants, just to cite an example. I've been quite explicitly told several times to keep out - "we don't need people of your sort ("your sort" means born in the fmr. Soviet Union, not any other personal shortcoming) in our country". Not that the "welcome" for immigrants is much different in an average Jewish community in Germany, but this is a large country that offers plenty of social alternatives. Of course, the situation gets better with a stronger "Russian" presence, but I doubt that this solution, a community gathering influence through its mass, rather than being accepted by virtue of its very existence, is the best of all options on the long run.

I do wish the Israelis would make up their minds on this and provide the appropriate information, such as the desired profiles of the olim-to-be openly. There is no need to advertise the Aliyah just for the sake of rhetorics.

[minusthejihad]

I too have family in Israel who came from Russia a few years back, and the last time my parents went to Israel (without me unfortunately), my father mentioned the bias against Russian Jews. This is unfortunate for the fact that as soon as they arrived in Israel, my Russian-Jewish cousins (younger tham me = 27) were rushed right into the IDF and now are in service in the various territories. I think it would be safe to say that most of these immigrants know about the dangers involved in living in Israel as well as serving in the military, and being used as pawns in settlements, yet not one of them would do anything different. I know, from my childhood in the USSR, that most Jews dream of a day when they can arrive in Israel and live free lives. I believe, despite their bad driving and difficulty assimilating, they are Jews to the bone and should be respected and offered the same courtesies.

Vic, where are you from originally and currently, if you don't mind me asking?

[Adversary2Arabs]

How are American Jewish immigrants viwed as? 1-10, 10 being the best. I'm planning on moving to Israel after college, in 6 years.

[elke]

I don't know: my personal experience in Israel was great! I did not find any evidence of anti-Russian feeling, although admittedly this was in the mid-'80s.

My family has not mentioned anything either, all of them seem to have acclimated well and don't report any problems.

My father is going in the end of August, I'll ask him what he finds...

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
I don't know: my personal experience in Israel was great! I did not find any evidence of anti-Russian feeling, although admittedly this was in the mid-'80s.For (potential) "double" immigrants like us this can also be a matter of perception. Would you be considered a "Russian" or an "American"? I was offered consolation that I could pass as a "German" since I speak the language fluently and make an overall "civilized" impression. Frankly, I didn't feel honoured :(.

The point is that I do not like the idea of a society well on its way to build social ghettos. This is precisely what happens if one reduces social contacts to Jewish circles in Germany: one winds up among people of one's own geographical/linguistic background. Exceptions are few and far between, not even in my case: I actually knew German quite well when I arrived here, which made me - theoretically - a perfect candidate for the much-bemoaned "integration". As I wrote, there are plenty alternatives to purely Jewish surroundings, which is a blessing - even if this is something a "good Jew" isn't supposed to say loudly according to local moral standards. Maybe my impression of Israel is wrong, but I do percieve a tendency towards building closely-knit immigrant groups, only loosely connected to the outside world.

Don't get me wrong over it. I greatly admire the vigor, the vitality and creativity of the Israeli society, qualities this part of the world (not only Germany proper, but most of the neighbouring countries as well) sorely lacks. Yet I am aware of the downside, of too little solidarity, of the divides between different groups. Again, I do wish there would be a clearer policy on this. If Israel is interested in certain categories of olim only, why not announce it openly? This would make many lives easier. If it is ready to accept anyone on the sole condition of Jewishness, then it should try to supply more answers to the obvious "what next" questions rather than let the candidates rely on private information channels - and sometimes rebuke them for the selfishness of putting such questions in the first place. After all, the olim's lives do not end the moment they are granted Israeli citizenship. The Aliyah makes sense only as a (new) beginning, not as a final act.

[elke]

I know what you are saying, Vic. I was lucky that my father could only find a job in the Midwest, within a year after we came here: the total immersion in American culture and language did far more good for me and my sister than anything else would have done.

In defence of the Israelis - and Americans, for that matter, I have to say this:
Our very first 9 months were spent in Brooklyn, NY, in an area near Brighton Beach. The things I saw the Russian immigrants do and say there, belong on Jerry Springer show :) . It was sick! The sudden change from the super structured, group-oriented society to almost anarchic conditions in Brooklyn, did incredible harm to this bunch of teenagers. Add to that the parents' bewilderment with trying to make a living in a new country, getting used to the different mores, etc. - and what you have is total chaos! Crime, drugs, foul language (I am no prude, but THAT was just too much! :) ), just plain hooliganism and abuse of the very freedoms they have supposedly come to enjoy.

Needless to say, my personal impression of the Russian Jewry suffered its first major setback. If Israelis are seeing pretty much what I saw in Brighton Beach, I can understand where they are coming from. That's not to say that this is OK, or that it's a good attitude to have - better integration is clearly necessary; but it's a human failing, nothing more nor less.

[Vic]

Hi, Elke, you sound almost like Takeo apologizing for Israeli military actions ;)

But seriously: while I cannot judge the overall situation in Israel (what you describe would hardly apply to "Russian" Israelis I know myself), the "Russians" in the Jewish communities here in Germany hardly gave the "Germans" more reason for such attitudes than the other way round.

During the conversations with (more or less) German Israelis I wrote about I was always struck by the fact that that the people I talked to would sooner or later admit to knowing few "Russians" personally - "but we all know what to expect". - - - -

Looking at the title of thread again - what kind of olim really make sense from the Israeli POV?

[elke]

OK, OK, you are right (it's that reference to Takeo viz. Israeli military actions that got me :) )

Obviously, (most of) my family and (all) my friends are nothing like what I saw in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, most of us do tend to generalize and generally make ourselves a fool by doing so. :o

I do think, however, that some of the problems are due to misunderstandings arising out of the adaptation to the new environment. Knowledge of mores is severely lacking in new Russian immigrants, or at least was lacking in the past.

[Mediocrates]

What makes you think that your experience as a group of new immigrants in Brooklyn is or was any different from anyone else's or any other groups? Not to put too fine a point on it, my ancestors came to the US and landed more or less in the Lower East Side, Brooklyn and Hell's Kitchen and did whatever it took to leave. These were pretty tough neighborhoods filled with a polyglot of languages and cultures from all over Europe: Ireland, Italy, Gemany, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Greece. They all plonked down in Ellis Island from about 1880-1910 with little if any English, few possessions and a vague sense of America coupled with a hard knowledge that the old country was for losers. One too many riots one too many lost jobs one too many pogroms one too many beloved brothers or sisters starved to death.

They did more or less what you describe and probably felt more or less what you did. Back then if you could move to Flatbush or the Bronx or to the Upper West Side you were moving up in the world compared to the Bowery, Alphabet City or 10th Ave in the mid 40's above Chelsea. Coney Island was like a weekend at the shore. They moved up to Morris Park or to the Amalgamated Coops, sent their kids to CUNY and CCNY which were free and top notch universities and never looked back.

There is an historical archive called the Bettman Archive and about 20 years ago they published a book about immigrant NY called "The Good Old Days, they were terrible".

[minusthejihad]

Haha, I'd love to see that one.

I've been to Brooklyn, where a lot of my family lives, and you are right, it's a bit rough around the edges, but most of these behaviors are caused by environment, and Brooklyn is one tough place to live, especially for Russian Jews. Hey, they scared me too, and I spoke to them in our native language.

However, in Detroit, where I grew up, I would definately say that Russian-Jews had a MUCH easier time assimilating, in fact almost too much. While my older sister and parents (and their peers) keep getting together all the time, I barely keep in touch with any Russian-Jews I grew up with, and keeping my porr Russian language in San Diego, well thats another nightmare. Needless to say, our community in Detroit was much more Americanized than those in New York. I don't even think my Aunt and Uncle ever speak English there or have American friends, unless they are at work.

But back to Vics point, I think I feel similar about my move to America and my reception from American Jews as he does about making Aliyah in Israel. The religious ones I was forced to go to school with ostracised us Russian-Jewsih kids and always felt that we could never be Jewish enough, then when I went to public school, the reformists never cared for my Jewishness, and considered me more an immigrant than a Jew. I guess you could say it was sad after hearing all my life about how Jews feel a togetherness.

If any positive thing can result from this position us Jews are in now, is that we must truly feel unified, despite everyone's initial origins.

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
OK, OK, you are right (it's that reference to Takeo viz. Israeli military actions that got me :) )That's why I wrote "almost" :) . There was another sickening little detail to that encounter: the poor patriots the guy inspected were actually combat soldiers.
Originally posted by minusthejihad
If any positive thing can result from this position us Jews are in now, is that we must truly feel unified, despite everyone's initial origins.We must. Do we? Beyond reciting slogans, I mean.

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic
That's why I wrote "almost" :) . There was another sickening little detail to that encounter: the poor patriots the guy inspected were actually combat soldiers.
We must. Do we? Beyond reciting slogans, I mean.

I think reciting slogans, when no one is really forcing us to, is a "symptom" of something going on inside. Heck, my (Jewish) brother-in-law beat alcoholism by reciting "God doesn't make junk" twice daily for a number of years. If he could do that, maybe we can beat our own destructive tendencies by using the same tactic (slogans, recited twice daily in front of a mirror ;) )? IMO, it's worth a shot...

[cerulean]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=182593&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=182593

How to reduce unemployment

Only 54 percent of the labor force in Israel actually works, far lower than what is acceptable in the Western world. Among the 25-54 age group, the core of the labor force, the picture is not any better. Some 76 percent of them work, compared to 82 percent in the West, while among men the gap is even greater, 82 percent in Israel compared to 93 percent in the West.

=======
The article then goes on to describe a program where people receiving guaranteed income allowances will be required to engage in labor, but also mentions that work visas have been granted to 6000 Thai farmworkers.

What this means to prospective immigrants who will presumably want to be employed I'm not sure.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
What this means to prospective immigrants who will presumably want to be employed I'm not sure. From what I've heard it sometimes means that if you don't have the proper personal connections you can go and hang yourself :( , quite apart fromThe conclusion is obvious: The prime minister cannot attack the unemployed, saying "let them sweep streets, work in hospitals, guard kindergartens, at least do something for the allowance they're getting," and at the same time approve work visas for another 6,000 Thai farm workers, as well as raising taxes on labor. I have experienced a similar attidude in a German Jewish community ("What you want to continue your studies? Immigrants are there for dirty jobs, stop dreaming") when I came here, fortunately it was not the overall German policy at that time.

[Mediocrates]

Is there a guest worker program? We don't have one and perhaps it's time. We have millions who try and do enter on their own. We have or had thousands of students who blended into the grey economy once their student visas expired. And it's all for jobs. If there was a commonsense way to acquire work we could possibly kill several birds with one stone. Illegals wouldn't be victimized (for example 1300 died in the desert trying to cross from Mexico, since 1996). We would be able to fill jobs American citizens apparently don't want and the people who are working would be paid something more than an exploitive wage. Acknowledging that there are in fact millions of undocumenteds here would in no way throw open the borders the way all the cryptofascists like Pat Buchanan say.

[Mediocrates]

BTW - right here in Raleigh there is a sizeable contingent of Canadian Jews, in comparison to the tiny community.

[Vic]

... bringing it back to the thread topic on creating decent employment and business opportunities for Israelis, stressing decent...

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
... bringing it back to the thread topic on creating decent employment and business opportunities for Israelis, stressing decent...

Then we're back to the definition of decent ....
Someone is going to be stuck cleaning the streets and the washrooms, preparing hundreds of hamburgers per day, doing telemarketing, etc. What percentage of jobs in the current workforce are of this type which most Westerners find unattractive? Will anyone immigrate to take this type of job, but then who is left to do it?

I get the impression that the Western world, at least North America, is coming to terms with the idea that for a significant portion of one's working life, the average person will be underemployed and/or unemployed. For another significant portion, the average person will be overemployed, meaning excessive work hours. Then there might possibly be some remanining time in there when things are "just right."

There's no such thing as security and there's no such thing as one career for life. (Being self-employed is one good way to take some control, but most people will not be interested in this as a solution.)

If there's a way that Israel can solve this problem and the rest of the Western world can't, I would be interested to know it. The statistics above indicate that the problems of underemployment and unemployment are more severe than in the rest of the Western world.

The advantages that Israel has, of course, are a highly educated workforce and now significant technological and pharmaceutical infrastructure.

[Mediocrates]

For many fields the model is changing to permanent contractorhood. If there is a way to predict or lock in a certain number of hours and a way to secure medical care and other noncash benefits (I have no idea how these things are funded in Israel) and a way to invest for retirement then people don't have to be self employed.

[Vic]

Anyone know more about this organization?Thousands of men, women and children in Israel are living without even the barest of necessities. Many are suffering physically and emotionally, and have nowhere to turn for help.

Yad Eliezer's flagship program provides some 5,000 families with the "basics" - eggs, oil, flour, sugar, canned goods and more - each month. Without these baskets, thousands of children would simply have nothing to eat.

Yad Eliezer donates over 10 million dollars yearly to feed the hungry of Israel.


Volunteer
At the heart of Yad Eliezer is its volunteers, without whom its work would not be possible. Or, if you live in the United States or Europe, the next time you are in Israel, come and visit us. We can always use another pair of hands.
Donate
Much of Yad Eliezer's work is made possible through the generous donations of people just like you from all walks of life throughout the world.

http://info.jpost.com/C002/Info/Organizations/YadEliezer/

[cerulean]

In this column, Netanyahu sets forth a plan to restore Israel's prosperity:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787766209

It sounds like platitudes, though.

[cerulean]

I had missed this site before, but it looks like a good source of info about business and economic news in Israel (I got it from a banner ad on Haaretz):

http://www.themarker.com/eng/

[Vic]

Sounds pretty desparate:On Israel's Entertainment Scene, Regrets Only

By John Ward Anderson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, July 30, 2002; Page A01

JERUSALEM, July 29 -- Backing out of a concert performance with the legendary conductor Zubin Mehta is like skipping a golf date with Tiger Woods or a dinner with Julia Child. But the unthinkable is becoming epidemic here as the world's great musicians take a pass on Israel because they fear for their security or disagree with the government's policies.

"Fifty percent or more of the foreign artists have canceled," said Mehta, music director of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. In the current production of Richard Strauss's opera "Salome," he said, "we've had eight cancellations in the cast."

The orchestra announced today that it was forced to cancel an eight-concert tour in the United States next month because no insurance company would cover the performances due to concerns about possible terrorist attacks, said a spokeswoman for the orchestra, Dalia Meroz.

"They think our orchestra is a target for terrorism," Meroz said.

Israel also used to be a regular stop on the pop music circuit, hosting the likes of Madonna, Eric Clapton, R.E.M. and Santana. But it has been more than a year since a mega-star played here. In some cases, Israeli artists have been disinvited from playing abroad. And the Tel Aviv film festival was canceled this year because the organizers feared no stars would come.

The problem goes beyond the arts. In March, the European football federation suspended soccer matches in Israel, citing security concerns. Israeli home games are scheduled to be played in Cyprus.

Influential academics, angry at the Israeli government's actions against Palestinians, are pushing a boycott of Israel that hundreds of university professors have joined. And on the economic front, some Norwegian supermarkets label Israeli products with stickers so customers can decide whether to buy them.

"Israel is not the flavor of the month, that's for sure," Mehta said. "The world is turning against it."

While there is little evidence of an internationally coordinated anti-Israel boycott of the sort aimed at South Africa in the 1980s, a sense of isolation is taking hold here, along with a concern that Israel is being shunned, dealing a blow to its national psyche and its decades-long drive for acceptance.

"Israel has always wanted to be integrated. It's an obsession," said Calev Ben-David, managing editor of the Jerusalem Post, who complained that "even the traditional supporters of Israel are not coming" these days.

"Never since the worst days of the Lebanon war has Israel felt so alone and isolated," he said, referring to the Israeli invasion of its northern neighbor in 1982. "We're not looking just for integration anymore. We're looking for any sign of solidarity and acceptance we can get. We really need a boost. We'd give the Palestinians a state if Bruce Springsteen would come."

Many artists have canceled appearances because of concerns about Palestinian suicide bombers who have attacked buses, hotels, restaurants and nightclubs. There is also a growing fear here and abroad of a large terrorist attack like those in New York and at the Pentagon on Sept. 11.

But many Israelis say that while security concerns are almost always the sole reason given for the cancellations, they believe many people are not coming because they oppose Israel's actions in the conflict with Palestinians but do not want to say so publicly.

"During the wars, there were always cancellations for reasons of personal security, but this time it's a very different story," said a Hebrew University philosopher and political scientist, Yaron Ezrahi.

"There is a moral issue about coming to [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon's Israel when it is engaged in actions which appear to be excessive," he said. "This excommunication only reinforces the idea that the whole world is against us because we're Jews."

Such was the case last month at the Israel Festival, one of the country's biggest cultural events. Three groups -- a dance troupe from Belgium and orchestras from Germany and Italy -- canceled at the last moment.

The groups from Germany and Italy cited security concerns. But the Belgian group -- a 34-member troupe called Rwanda '94 that stages performances about the massacre of more than a half million ethnic Tutsis -- said its reasons were overridingly political.

"There was genocide of the Jews, then there was genocide in Rwanda, and now Israel is trying to get rid of the Palestinians," said the group's music director, Gareth List, explaining that most of the people in his troupe "oppose the way Palestinians have been treated for the last 54 years."

Similar concerns prompted more than 200 painters, photographers, poets and other artists to endorse an Internet petition calling on their peers to "cancel all exhibitions and other cultural events that are scheduled to occur in Israel" because "the art world must speak out against the current Israeli war crimes and atrocities."

Many people, however, are genuinely concerned about their safety, event organizers said. Others cite personal or professional conflicts or medical excuses, which organizers said they sometimes read as a tip-off that the real problem is political.

"Nobody says it openly," Mehta said. "At the moment they say, 'Look, my family just won't let me go.' That's usually what they do."

But the security concerns are real, he said, and apparently have played a role in the decision of many stars not to come.

"I say, 'I'm going, and I cannot force you,' " said Mehta, 66, the former director of the Los Angeles and New York philharmonics, who spends about nine weeks a year in Israel. "I cannot guarantee them 100 percent safety. My mother sits in Los Angeles and is shaking every day. If I don't call twice a day, she's nervous."

"My parents, my uncle in Kalamazoo, my good friends all along kept saying they wished I would cancel," said Susan Anthony, an up-and-coming American soprano who took over the title role in "Salome" when opera great Jane Eaglen canceled for security reasons. "There was a bombing less than a mile from my hotel three days ago, and the cast was on the phone with each other -- turn on CNN! -- and then the families try to get through to make sure you're not down there."

Lia van Leer, founder and director of the Jerusalem Film Festival, said her event typically draws as many as 200 foreign actors, directors and other film industry people, but this year attracted only about 60, and no one of the stature of such past attendees as Robert De Niro, Warren Beatty, Jane Fonda and Kirk Douglas.

"It's awkward. They have another agenda, they're starting another film, they have a vacation scheduled -- and I can't blame them," she said. But for the most part, "it's not a boycott for political reasons, it's only a boycott because people are afraid to come here."

The Tel Aviv Museum of Art, which hosts chamber music performances, had so many cancellations by foreigners this year that it recently decided to book only local artists for its next concert season. And the Tel Aviv film festival, which was canceled this year for the same reason, has been postponed indefinitely, said Edna Fainaru, the festival's founder.

The pop music scene has been particularly hard-hit, said the Jerusalem Post's Ben-David, who has covered the arts scene in Israel for more than 10 years.

"Rock stars who live totally on the edge are afraid to come here," he said. At the same time, "the rock community tends to veer toward a left, politically correct line, and to some degree it has become politically impossible in that community" to perform in Israel.

"Before, any big band coming from the U.S. to Europe would drop by Israel. That's over," said Shuki Weiss, a top concert producer who has brought David Bowie, Bob Dylan and other top acts to Israel.

"The general idea for the last 20 years was to put Israel on the map, and with all modesty, we succeeded very well," he said. "But now, when you see all the familiar big names going to Europe or on world tour and you are not considered, it's a strange feeling of isolation. It's set us back six years."

Not only are international artists shunning Israel. In a few cases, Israeli artists have been disinvited from performing abroad, including in Europe and the United States -- once again, usually because of security.

Chava Alberstein, an Israeli folk singer, and singer-songwriter David Daor were asked not to perform at European concerts this year, their agents said.

"Those who canceled did not make anti-Semitic remarks. It was mainly a security thing," said Pazit Daor, David Daor's wife and manager. "In Detroit, they were scared they would need to protect the whole place."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18725-2002Jul29?language=printer

1) How true is the depiction?

2) I wonder whether some of the appropriate figures can be enticed to visit Israel - as a symbolic gesture...

3) Shouldn't the local Jewish communities do more to support Israeli presence, where possible?

[shiva]

Vic, Israel is overcrowded, and the government doesn't know how it will take care of everyone. When the last big wave of russian and African immigrants arrived, there wasn't even enough housing

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Vic
Sounds pretty desparate:

1) How true is the depiction?

2) I wonder whether some of the appropriate figures can be enticed to visit Israel - as a symbolic gesture...

3) Shouldn't the local Jewish communities do more to support Israeli presence, where possible?

No it's just a boycott by another name. What next? Airports kick out El Al for 'security reasons'?

Welcome to the wonderful world of 'we don't want to upset anyone' and 'insurance companies won't underwrite your trip'.

Maybe all the Israeli technology firms should quadruple their royalties on all of the intellectual property the world can't live without. Computers, biomedical technology, agrinomics and so on. Better yet make some threats about boycotting nations who don't support them. Large parts of the internet for example would cease to operate effectively w/o some of that patented brainpower.

[Vic]

Originally posted by shiva
Vic, Israel is overcrowded, and the government doesn't know how it will take care of everyone. When the last big wave of russian and African immigrants arrived, there wasn't even enough housing Then why try to keep up the delusion that immigrants are still welcome in Israel, or even pressurize (publicly, not in direct contact, as I've described above) "Diaspora Jews" to make the Aliyah? It is a cruel game, potentially harmful for both sides. If Israel doesn't really want most of the immigrants, why not say so officially and let the people take care of themselves where they are? Why waste such an amount of money and energy in promoting an illusion?

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No it's just a boycott by another name. What next? Airports kick out El Al for 'security reasons'?

Welcome to the wonderful world of 'we don't want to upset anyone' and 'insurance companies won't underwrite your trip'.

Maybe all the Israeli technology firms should quadruple their royalties on all of the intellectual property the world can't live without. Computers, biomedical technology, agrinomics and so on. Better yet make some threats about boycotting nations who don't support them. Large parts of the internet for example would cease to operate effectively w/o some of that patented brainpower. I have been thinking more in the direction of what might be loosely termed psychological measures, work with public opinion, etc.

[shiva]

Originally posted by Vic
Then why try to keep up the delusion that immigrants are still welcome in Israel, or even pressurize (publicly, not in direct contact, as I've described above) "Diaspora Jews" to make the Aliyah? It is a cruel game, potentially harmful for both sides. If Israel doesn't really want most of the immigrants, why not say so officially and let the people take care of themselves where they are? Why waste such an amount of money and energy in promoting an illusion?

True, but not wanting and not having the means to accomadate are 2 different issues. People who are making Aliyah are finding it impossible to get work, and these are Americans. At the same time, how can Israel close its borders and not admit every Jew who wants to be there. No doubt, it's a problem. What can be done without Israel violating what it stands for, a home for all Jews. It is true Aliyah is encouraged------maybe instead of officially stating immigrants are not wanted, the truth of how difficult making Aliyah is, should be told upfront.

[shiva]

Originally posted by cerulean


Then we're back to the definition of decent ....
Someone is going to be stuck cleaning the streets and the washrooms, preparing hundreds of hamburgers per day, doing telemarketing, etc. What percentage of jobs in the current workforce are of this type which most Westerners find unattractive? Will anyone immigrate to take this type of job, but then who is left to do it?

I get the impression that the Western world, at least North America, is coming to terms with the idea that for a significant portion of one's working life, the average person will be underemployed and/or unemployed. For another significant portion, the average person will be overemployed, meaning excessive work hours. Then there might possibly be some remanining time in there when things are "just right."

There's no such thing as security and there's no such thing as one career for life. (Being self-employed is one good way to take some control, but most people will not be interested in this as a solution.) Making Aliyah is not like immigrating to America, in search of a better material life. It has to be bigger than a concern about types of jobs. It's about what Israel means to someone, and a strong need to be there, because it is true that there is no such thing as security. Self-employment and professional training helps, but even those who try to become self-employed are finding the going tough. Stats show it takes about 3 years to make it work, if it's going to, and for some, they either can't aford to, or don't want to.

If there's a way that Israel can solve this problem and the rest of the Western world can't, I would be interested to know it. The statistics above indicate that the problems of underemployment and unemployment are more severe than in the rest of the Western world.

The advantages that Israel has, of course, are a highly educated workforce and now significant technological and pharmaceutical infrastructure.

[shiva]

oops. Paragraph 3, after the brackets. # 4 is not mine. Change to emmigrate. Sorry

[Mediocrates]

There is a think tank called IASPS that has an awful lot to say about the development of capitalism and the reformation of the Israeli government to make it better. They are what I would imagine a moderate Libertarian transplant to a socialist country would look like.

http://www.israeleconomy.org/

They don't address ingathering specifically but I guess that's not the problem. The problem is how do they get clothed, fed, educated, employed and integrated. Read carefully the dates of things though - the content is not arranged chronologically.