A voice of reason

[Static]

http://thethinkingleb.blogspot.com/2006/07/some-wise-words.html



History Will Judge Us All On Our Actions
July 31, 2006
Michel Aoun- Wall Street Journal

RABIEH, Lebanon -- While aircraft, sea-craft, and artillery pound our beloved Lebanon, we Lebanese are left, as usual, to watch helplessly and pay a heavy price for a war foisted upon us due to circumstances beyond our control.

Considering that this crisis could have been avoided, and considering that there is -- and has been -- a solution almost begging to be made, one cannot but conclude that all of this death, destruction and human agony will, in retrospect, be adjudged as having been in vain.

No matter how much longer this fight goes on, the truth of the matter is that political negotiations will be the endgame. The solution that will present itself a week, a month or a year from now will be, in essence, the same solution as the one available today, and which, tragically, was available before a single shot was fired or a single child killed. Given this reality, a more concerted effort is required sooner rather than later to stop the death and destruction on both sides of the border.

From the outset, this dispute has been viewed through the differing prisms of differing worldviews. As one who led my people during a time when they defended themselves against aggression, I recognize, personally, that other countries have the right to defend themselves, just as Lebanon does; this is an inalienable right possessed by all countries and peoples.

For some, analysis as to this conflict's sources and resolutions begins and ends with the right to self-defense; for others, Israel's claimed self-defensive actions are perceived as barbaric and offensive acts aimed at destroying a country and liquidating a people. Likewise, some view Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers as fair military game to pressure Israel to return Lebanese prisoners; yet others perceive it as a terrorist act aimed at undermining Israel's sovereignty and security.

These divergences, and the world's failure to adopt different paradigms by which Middle East problems can be fairly analyzed and solved, have produced, and will continue to produce, a vicious cycle of continuing conflict. If the approach remains the same in the current conflict, I anticipate that the result will be the same. This, therefore, is a mandate to change the basis upon which problems are judged and measured from the present dead-end cycle to one which is based on universal, unarguable principles and which has at least a fighting chance to produce a lasting positive result.

My own personal belief is that all human life is equal and priceless -- I look upon Israeli life as the same as Lebanese life. This belief stems not from my Catholic religion, but rather, from basic human values which have their historic home in Lebanon. It is no coincidence that a leading figure in the drafting and adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was Charles Malek, a Lebanese citizen.

I ask, will other Arab countries and leaders have the courage to acknowledge that Israeli life is equal to Arab life? Will Israel have the courage as well to acknowledge that Lebanese life is equal to Israeli life, and that all life is priceless? I believe that most Israeli and Arab citizens would answer in the affirmative. Can we get their governments and their leaders to do the same?

Acknowledgement of equality between the value of the Lebanese and the Israeli people can be a starting point and a catalyst. The universal, unarguable concept of the equality of peoples and of human life should be the basis upon which we measure and judge events, and should provide the common human prism through which the current conflict, and old seemingly everlasting conflicts, are viewed and resolved. This is the only way to peace, prosperity and security, which is, after all, what all human beings desire, regardless of their origin

.The ideological, political and religious differences between the party that I lead, the Free Patriotic Movement, and Hezbollah, could have been addressed either through confrontation, or through internal dialogue. Recognizing the value of human life, the obvious choice was the second option. We sat down with Hezbollah to discuss our differences.

After many months of extensive negotiations, we came up with an understanding that included 10 key items which laid down a roadmap to resolve 10 of the most contentious points of disagreement. For example, Hezbollah agreed for the first time that Lebanese who collaborated with Israel during Israel's occupation of south Lebanon should return peacefully to Lebanon without fear of retribution. We also agreed to work together to achieve a civil society to replace the present confessional system which distributes power on the basis of religious affiliation. Additionally, Hezbollah, which is accused of being staunchly pro-Syrian, agreed for the first time that the border between Lebanon and Syria should be finally delineated, and that diplomatic relations between the two countries should be established.

We also agreed that Palestinian refugees in Lebanon should be disarmed, that security and political decision-making should be centralized with the Lebanese government, and that all Lebanese political groups should disengage themselves from regional conflicts and influences.

Last but not least, our extensive negotiations with Hezbollah resulted in an articulation of the three main roadblocks regarding resolution of the Hezbollah arms issue: First, the return of Lebanese prisoners in Israeli prisons. Second, the return of the Shebaa farms, a tiny piece of Lebanese territory still occupied by Israel. And third, the formulation of a comprehensive strategy to provide for Lebanon's defense, centered upon a strong national army and central state decision-making authority in which all political groups are assured a fair opportunity to participate.

This structure, if joined together with international guarantees which forbid the nationalization of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and which protect Lebanon from Israeli incursions, and if tied on the internal level to a new, fair and uniform electoral law, is the best hope for peacefully resolving the Hezbollah weapons issue.

This is the essence of the comprehensive solution we seek. Because it embodies a shift from a policy based on military force to one founded upon human values and reconciling the rights of parties, it would stand the test of time. If rights are respected, and if parties are treated with the deference that they implicitly deserve as human beings, then the long-term result will be not only physical disarmament, but also a disarmament of minds on both sides.

Our party presented this solution internally to all Lebanese political groups, the Lebanese government, and the international community -- including the U.S. administration -- repeatedly, for an entire year before this crisis began.

Rather than help us to resolve the weapons issue peacefully and avoid the current agony our country is now enduring, the international community and Lebanese government flatly ignored the proposed solution. Many of Lebanon's main political players cast us aside as "pro-Syrian" "allies" of Hezbollah. No matter. These are the same individuals who -- only a year before -- branded me a "Zionist agent" and brought treason charges against me when I dared to testify before a Congressional subcommittee that Syria should end its occupation of my country.

You see, after Lebanon was liberated from Syrian occupation, the international community (apparently enamored by the quixotic images of the Cedar Revolution) demanded that the Lebanese elections take place immediately and "on time"; it brushed off our grave concerns about the electoral law in force, which had been carefully crafted by Syria and imposed upon Lebanon in the year 2000 to ensure re-election of Syria's favorite legislators.

This flawed electoral law -- initially imposed upon us by Syria and then reimposed upon us by the international community -- has had disastrous results. It brought to power a Lebanese government with absolute two-thirds majority powers, but which was elected by only one-third of the populace. With a legislative and executive majority on one side, and a popular majority on the other side, the result was absolute gridlock. Currently in Lebanon, there is no confluence of popular will with government will, and therefore the government cannot deal effectively with this or any other problem.

History will judge us all on our actions, and especially on the unnecessary death and destruction that we leave behind. The destruction currently being wrought upon Lebanon is in no way measured or proportional -- ambulances, milk factories, power stations, television crews and stations, U.N. observers and civilian infrastructure have been destroyed.

Let us proceed from the standpoint that all human life is equal, and that if there is a chance to save lives and to achieve the same ultimate result as may be achieved without the senseless killings, then let us by all means take that chance.

Mr. Aoun, the former prime minister of Lebanon and commander of its armed forces, is currently a deputy in the Lebanese parliament.

[Reffo]

Here is my perspective:

Yes, I agree, all human life is equal Arab and Israeli likewise.

The Sheba farm is deemed to be Syrian not Lebanese territory even by the UN. Therefore, it should not be Hezbollah's business.

Israel too has been waiting for the return (if he is alive) of one of it's soldiers (Ron Arad) who was captured by Hezbollah 20 years ago. But not only has he not been returned in the last prisoner exchange, but Hezbollah has not been even willing to give any information about his fate or wherabouts. His family don't even know whether he is alive or dead, very inhumane!

Otherwise, it's a good article, pity that there aren't more of such articles.

[Static]

I only wish more people would adopt a humane outlook...

[Static]

This is a very important read, and I think it would be most beneficial for all interested in this conflict in any way to hear a true voice of reason...

[farmall]

"Reason" depends on your objective.
I argue that most of the regions people are beyond rational behavior, but that is fine because the war between Islam and the West needs sufficient trigger events to drive regional, open, total war. The games played in Lebanon (which should have beed partitioned ethnically long ago) make it a Balkan-like cockpit whose issues offer themselves for use in the larger conflict. Total war is desirable, because it can erase the effectivness of unconventional Jihadi methods.
For supporters of Israel, the only hope of its survival is to re-form (not 'reform") the region, with total war as the catalyst. The war itself can disable its neighbors and buy time for change.

[Static]

"Reason" depends on your objective.

The objective should always be what is most beneficial for the largest amount of people.


The games played in Lebanon (which should have beed partitioned ethnically long ago) make it a Balkan-like cockpit whose issues offer themselves for use in the larger conflict.

I'm starting to believe this is a sad truth.


I argue that most of the regions people are beyond rational behavior, but that is fine because the war between Islam and the West needs sufficient trigger events to drive regional, open, total war. Total war is desirable, because it can erase the effectivness of unconventional Jihadi methods.

What do you mean by this? Please elaborate.


For supporters of Israel, the only hope of its survival is to re-form (not 'reform") the region, with total war as the catalyst. The war itself can disable its neighbors and buy time for change.

Again, please elaborate.

[farmall]

My argument for Total War as a social catalyst is this:
If one examines dead religions and gods that are no longer worshipped, the thing those beliefs had in common was that WORLDLY events caused worshippers to cease belief.
The Aztec, Maya, Roman, and Greek gods aren't objects of reverence today because they FAILED the test of actually protecting their believers. A deity that fails the truly faithful is unequivcally a false god. They were tremendous in their time, and nothing now.
There is considerable argument that the God of Christianity and Jewry is not the Allah of Islam. I will leave that to the learned, but in the battle between opposing faiths the historic,proven way to win is to prove, by force, that the deity the other fellow worships does nothing for him or his people when they are in extremis.
Islam, and the other ME religions are ideally (and originally) constructed to survive LOW intensity war, persecution (which backfires in cultures that thrive on indvidual sacrifice), and other restrained efforts against them.
What they were necessarily constructed to withstand are pressures that did not exist when they were constructed.
Christianity and Judaism passed through phases that adapted them to the modern world with their goals intact.
Islamic goals are anti-modern and harken back to ancient times.
Modern, total war in which there are no safe zones and where core expectations are shattered is the way to damage Islamist faith. Only total war will do, because it involves destruction of holy places and population centers in the manner of World War II. The conflict in Iraq, for example, was never remotely near Total War.
Obviously, this kind of war cannot be initiated by the West, because starting it goes against deeply held convictions.
FINISHING that kind of war most certainly does not. Preparing to respond in that manner does not.
The way to defeat an enemy is to rely on things the enemy does because they are emotionally locked into those behaviors. Jihadism, for example, is locked into "terror" or frightfulness, and will use those methods. The WEAKNESS of those methods is that they are so outrageous to Western sensibilities that they erode the compassion/weakness toward an enemy using them and liberate the Western mind from the self-imposed restraint it would prefer against a "civilized" enemy. Jihadists are only adaptive militarily, not socially or psychologically.
They can act in rage to start the wars we can then finish.
In order to resolve the war between the progressive West and regressive Islam, someones deity is going to have to visibly fail. For Christians and Jews, breaking their enemies false god will require vastly more effort than the piddling little wars so far. For the Chrstians and Jews, it is not testing their own God, it is testing THEM against the enemy construct of Allah.
Comments?

[Achihud]

My argument for Total War as a social catalyst is this:
If one examines dead religions and gods that are no longer worshipped, the thing those beliefs had in common was that WORLDLY events caused worshippers to cease belief.
The Aztec, Maya, Roman, and Greek gods aren't objects of reverence today because they FAILED the test of actually protecting their believers. A deity that fails the truly faithful is unequivcally a false god. They were tremendous in their time, and nothing now.
There is considerable argument that the God of Christianity and Jewry is not the Allah of Islam. I will leave that to the learned, but in the battle between opposing faiths the historic,proven way to win is to prove, by force, that the deity the other fellow worships does nothing for him or his people when they are in extremis.
Islam, and the other ME religions are ideally (and originally) constructed to survive LOW intensity war, persecution (which backfires in cultures that thrive on indvidual sacrifice), and other restrained efforts against them.
What they were necessarily constructed to withstand are pressures that did not exist when they were constructed.
Christianity and Judaism passed through phases that adapted them to the modern world with their goals intact.
Islamic goals are anti-modern and harken back to ancient times.
Modern, total war in which there are no safe zones and where core expectations are shattered is the way to damage Islamist faith. Only total war will do, because it involves destruction of holy places and population centers in the manner of World War II. The conflict in Iraq, for example, was never remotely near Total War.
Obviously, this kind of war cannot be initiated by the West, because starting it goes against deeply held convictions.
FINISHING that kind of war most certainly does not. Preparing to respond in that manner does not.
The way to defeat an enemy is to rely on things the enemy does because they are emotionally locked into those behaviors. Jihadism, for example, is locked into "terror" or frightfulness, and will use those methods. The WEAKNESS of those methods is that they are so outrageous to Western sensibilities that they erode the compassion/weakness toward an enemy using them and liberate the Western mind from the self-imposed restraint it would prefer against a "civilized" enemy. Jihadists are only adaptive militarily, not socially or psychologically.
They can act in rage to start the wars we can then finish.
In order to resolve the war between the progressive West and regressive Islam, someones deity is going to have to visibly fail. For Christians and Jews, breaking their enemies false god will require vastly more effort than the piddling little wars so far. For the Chrstians and Jews, it is not testing their own God, it is testing THEM against the enemy construct of Allah.
Comments? That is one big WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE POST!!!

All muslims ever do is hold it against jews & christians that there are religious differences between them !
No argument with that, but at the same time they hate to see it when jews & christians put religious differences aside !! Then all of a sudden they are the Zionist enemy...;)

Muslims NEED DISCORD between jews & christians so they can promote Allah as the solution to the conflict !!!

How HYPOCRITICAL is that ???

[farmall]

"What they were NOT necessarily constructed to withstand are pressures that did not exist when they were constructed."
Apologies for the typo error.

[Static]

My argument for Total War as a social catalyst is this:
If one examines dead religions and gods that are no longer worshipped, the thing those beliefs had in common was that WORLDLY events caused worshippers to cease belief.
The Aztec, Maya, Roman, and Greek gods aren't objects of reverence today because they FAILED the test of actually protecting their believers. A deity that fails the truly faithful is unequivcally a false god. They were tremendous in their time, and nothing now.
There is considerable argument that the God of Christianity and Jewry is not the Allah of Islam. I will leave that to the learned, but in the battle between opposing faiths the historic,proven way to win is to prove, by force, that the deity the other fellow worships does nothing for him or his people when they are in extremis.
Islam, and the other ME religions are ideally (and originally) constructed to survive LOW intensity war, persecution (which backfires in cultures that thrive on indvidual sacrifice), and other restrained efforts against them.
What they were necessarily constructed to withstand are pressures that did not exist when they were constructed.
Christianity and Judaism passed through phases that adapted them to the modern world with their goals intact.
Islamic goals are anti-modern and harken back to ancient times.
Modern, total war in which there are no safe zones and where core expectations are shattered is the way to damage Islamist faith. Only total war will do, because it involves destruction of holy places and population centers in the manner of World War II. The conflict in Iraq, for example, was never remotely near Total War.
Obviously, this kind of war cannot be initiated by the West, because starting it goes against deeply held convictions.
FINISHING that kind of war most certainly does not. Preparing to respond in that manner does not.
The way to defeat an enemy is to rely on things the enemy does because they are emotionally locked into those behaviors. Jihadism, for example, is locked into "terror" or frightfulness, and will use those methods. The WEAKNESS of those methods is that they are so outrageous to Western sensibilities that they erode the compassion/weakness toward an enemy using them and liberate the Western mind from the self-imposed restraint it would prefer against a "civilized" enemy. Jihadists are only adaptive militarily, not socially or psychologically.
They can act in rage to start the wars we can then finish.
In order to resolve the war between the progressive West and regressive Islam, someones deity is going to have to visibly fail. For Christians and Jews, breaking their enemies false god will require vastly more effort than the piddling little wars so far. For the Chrstians and Jews, it is not testing their own God, it is testing THEM against the enemy construct of Allah.
Comments?

I will reply in full tomorrow either way, but can I ask you what can be taken as rude but is not intended as such?

Please press return twice after each paragraph in your posts. It seriously hurts my eyes to try to discern them otherwise.

[farmall]

Certainly. Different browsers render differently, so it may be easier to read with more whitespace.

[Stella]

Static,

Thanks so much for posting Mr. Aouns` Op-Ed, I was truly surprised to see it here!


The Sheba farm is deemed to be Syrian not Lebanese territory even by the UN. Therefore, it should not be Hezbollah's business.

Please note, that the Syrian government has emphasized many times so far that they consider the Sheeba Farm Lebanese territory. Thus the UN shall also reconsider its resolutions regarding this land. A long lasting settlement cant be taken place without settling the dispute over Sheeba Farm.

[Gershon]

A lot of 18 year-olds buried today.I just got this e-mail from a friend who keeps good records. He's from Portugal and a hasbara colleague. shabat shalom and hope the killing stops.

Last update - 01:41 28/01/2004
IDF chief of staff: Hezbollah unlikely to make more attempts to kidnap soldiers

By Gideon Alon

Speaking yesterday to the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon downplayed the chances of Hezbollah attempting to kidnap Israeli soldiers, and he expressed hope that the fate of missing navigator Ron Arad would be settled in the next few months.

"Heads of the Hezbollah organization are currently making every effort not to escalate affairs in the north, and I do not believe they will attempt to kidnap IDF soldiers because such an act, and our response to it, would jeopardize the organization's legitimacy in Lebanon," Ya'alon said.

Public opinion in Lebanon is increasingly critical of Hezbollah, Ya'alon claimed, because escalated violence on the northern border causes damage to the tourism sector and the country's economy. "Many in Lebanon are wondering why they have to suffer just because Hezbollah wants to play with fire," Ya'alon said.

Relating to the prisoner exchange deal with Hezbollah, Ya'alon declared: "Enactment of the prisoner exchange deal is likely to increase the chances that the mystery of Ron Arad's fate will be resolved."

Ya'alon added that "each side has an interest in this exchange deal - Iran, Germany, the Hezbollah organization. Under the deal ... prospects increase for attaining genuine information and proof concerning the fate of Ron Arad. But I am not sure that Iran will want to cross this bridge. I believe that Iran is responsible for the fate of Ron Arad. Up to now, Iran has denied involvement in Arad's case, and so I'm not sure that Tehran will agree now to cross the Rubicon," and admit that it has information about the missing IDF navigator.

Israel will not release the terrorist Samir Kuntar, who murdered three members of a Nahariya family, until it receives proof about Arad, such as DNA test results, Ya'alon said. He expressed hopes that the Arad matter will be settled within two or three months.

[European2006]

Here is my perspective:

Yes, I agree, all human life is equal Arab and Israeli likewise.

The Sheba farm is deemed to be Syrian not Lebanese territory even by the UN. Therefore, it should not be Hezbollah's business.

Israel too has been waiting for the return (if he is alive) of one of it's soldiers (Ron Arad) who was captured by Hezbollah 20 years ago. But not only has he not been returned in the last prisoner exchange, but Hezbollah has not been even willing to give any information about his fate or wherabouts. His family don't even know whether he is alive or dead, very inhumane!

Otherwise, it's a good article, pity that there aren't more of such articles.

As I recall, the deal on the withdrawl of Israel from Lebanon in 2000 was to include a prisoner-exchange, which Israel has not implemented. So it's not just one side refusing to keep commitments. Michel Aoun is right by the way, except when he expresses the believe that Israelis consider Lebanese lives are equal to Israeli lives. I question if this is true, considering the far-right politicians that have gained currency in Israel since 2000.

[Eil]

As I recall, the deal on the withdrawl of Israel from Lebanon in 2000 was to include a prisoner-exchange, which Israel has not implemented. So it's not just one side refusing to keep commitments. Michel Aoun is right by the way, except when he expresses the believe that Israelis consider Lebanese lives are equal to Israeli lives. I question if this is true, considering the far-right politicians that have gained currency in Israel since 2000.

and i'm afraid that Gen. Michel Aoun 's perspective will not be applicable if the fight continue this way. As i can see here in this forum alone more hate and more anger on both sides!
Where are the voices of reason is israel?
I haven't found any party leader or any politician trying to figure a peace process. I'd like to note that Gen.Michel Aoun represents one of the largest parties (secular party), with one of largest parliamentary group (21 members from 128) and more than 70% of the christian voters in lebanon.

[Erez Levanon]

Where are the voices of reason is israel?

They are there I am sure. Maybe not too much in this forum, or they are quiet here.

G. Michel Aoun at least had a framework of understanding with Hizbullah in which they agreed to a unified, single armed force in Lebanon, the Lebanese Army as soon as the POWs in Israel and the Shebaa farms liberated.

Unfortunately, I think some in Lebanon were waiting for the Israelis/Americans to do this... while they talked to Hizbullah about disarming they may have known about Israel's desire to get the job done by force...

But anyways, I think the Sanioura plan is good for peace (i.e. no violence, respect of borders)? Don't you think?

[Mil]

the Shebaa farms liberated

I thought Shebaa farms was Syrian territory?

[Titus]

Actually Syria has willed the Sheeba farms to Lebanon.

[KettleWhistle]

Actually, Syria doesn't officially recognize either Lebanon's or Jordan's independence, and refused to demarcate its borders with Lebanon, which might have designated Sheeba Farms as Lebanese. Either way, the UN does not recognize them as Lebanese, so take it up with the UN.

[Titus]

The UN definately doesn't recognise it as Israeli.

[Eil]

the Shebaa farms liberated

I thought Shebaa farms was Syrian territory?


to be objective, Shebaa farms is Lebanese.Syria in the year 1966 invaded it.and claimed it belong to them.but the residents of that area have the lebanese citizenship, and a member of the lebanese parliament is from shebaa farms, and all the documents of ownership of land and houses is registered in lebanon.
as we all know the war of 1968 came and lebanon due to the war between the arabs and israel didn't find a place to take it back with all the conflicts.then israel took it.
according to the UN its not clear weather it's syrian or lebanese, but sure it's not israeli.
syrians have said many times that it's lebanese, i know its not enough to just say it, it needs more proof that syria refuse to admit it.
seems syria and israel are being so harmonious together.seems israel is defending syria's interest!

[Mediocrates]

Where did you determine that the UN is the ratio sum ultra binding one world government over all countries?

I'd like to see where all states including yours have voluntarily abrogated national laws and constitutions to the UN made it as dejure government over all governments, regardless. Please show me where Oz did that. Thanks.

[KettleWhistle]

The UN definately doesn't recognise it as Israeli.

Besides the point here.

[ItsMyJewty]

Erez Levanon: The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you, and your destruction of animals will terrify you. For you have shed man's blood; you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.

Is this directed at Nasrallah? It should be.

IMJ

[Lazarus]

As this is my first post here, let me introduce myself. I am one of those right wing born again Christians you hear so much about. As such, I believe that the Jews are God's Chosen People and the land of Israel was given to the Jews by God. That's settled!

As far a total war in the middle east? It needs to happen and it will happen eventually. Iran must be the target. Iran is supporting, funding and provoking every terrorist in the world. I just hope the world wakes up to this danger in time. The problem is the western nations and the nations in the far east have reached such a level of comfort in their nations material wealth that they will do anything to avoid putting that in jeopardy. Just look at South Korea, it used to be afraid of the North attacking so the United States has been station there as a guarantee of their safety since the end of the Korean War. Today North Korea has a nuclear capability, the United States could take the north out but South Korea doesn't want too because of all of the econinomic comfort it has achieved. Soule, South Korea would take a lot of damage. So it lives with it. It's the same with Iran. The western world doesn't want to jeopardize its level of comfort. Until we are willing to take a huge economic hit, we will just continue to talk about it and not do anything about it.

[Titus]

Actually America couldn't take out North Korea without having most of its major cities levelled.

[AnotherAlly]

Actually America couldn't take out North Korea without having most of its major cities levelled.

You mean North Korea's cities, right?

[Mediocrates]

Actually America couldn't take out North Korea without having most of its major cities levelled.


Uh huh, right (http://www.sourcewatch.org/images/2/22/Korea_(179)_small.jpg)

[Bushwacker]

As this is my first post here, let me introduce myself. I am one of those right wing born again Christians you hear so much about. As such, I believe that the Jews are God's Chosen People and the land of Israel was given to the Jews by God. That's settled!

As far a total war in the middle east? It needs to happen and it will happen eventually. Iran must be the target. Iran is supporting, funding and provoking every terrorist in the world. I just hope the world wakes up to this danger in time. The problem is the western nations and the nations in the far east have reached such a level of comfort in their nations material wealth that they will do anything to avoid putting that in jeopardy. Just look at South Korea, it used to be afraid of the North attacking so the United States has been station there as a guarantee of their safety since the end of the Korean War. Today North Korea has a nuclear capability, the United States could take the north out but South Korea doesn't want too because of all of the econinomic comfort it has achieved. Soule, South Korea would take a lot of damage. So it lives with it. It's the same with Iran. The western world doesn't want to jeopardize its level of comfort. Until we are willing to take a huge economic hit, we will just continue to talk about it and not do anything about it.

man those religious folk... can yoou see any difference between muslims and new borns when it comes to fanaticism

[Titus]

You mean North Korea's cities, right?

Well, think about it this way. If Kim Jong Il is both unstable and posesses nuclear weapons do you think he would hesitate to use them if he was going to be captured and probably executed.

[Lazarus]

man those religious folk... can yoou see any difference between muslims and new borns when it comes to fanaticism

Yes, there is a big difference. Christians don't talk about destroying another country because we don't like them. We don't kill in order to go to heaven and recieve 70 virgins. We are taught to "Love thy neighbor" not "Kill the infitale".

[Titus]

Christians have often done these things. The fact that they are not doing so NOW, although thats debatable with George Bush, is besides the point.

[Lazarus]

Well, think about it this way. If Kim Jong Il is both unstable and posesses nuclear weapons do you think he would hesitate to use them if he was going to be captured and probably executed.

That's the whole point. North Korea has nukes now. If South Korea would of had the will before the North got the nukes it would be a different story now. South Korea didn't want to loose its economic comfort. They wanted to talk, talk and more talk. Now it's too late. The same thing is happening with Iran. Instead of going after the disease (Iran) everyone just talks about the problem and try's to treat the symptom (hezbolah and Syria). Someday we will wake up to find Iran with the nuke and then what?

[Bushwacker]

i can feel your loving gaze upon me.. oh no its a bunkerbuster... i love yoou too than... actually if we take what you say seriously muslims deserve respect... at least they do what they preach... love your neighbour huh? by the way i love your way of spreading democracy... but spare me ok?

[Titus]

North Korea is very different to Iran. North Korea is extremely unlikely to use their nuclear weapons or supply them to terrorists, it's simply not in their interests or in line with their policies. North Korea is backed into a corner and is trying to bluff its way out.

[Lazarus]

North Korea is very different to Iran. North Korea is extremely unlikely to use their nuclear weapons or supply them to terrorists, it's simply not in their interests or in line with their policies. North Korea is backed into a corner and is trying to bluff its way out.

North Korea has proven time and again that it will sell it's technology to the highest bidder. During the missile test on July 4th there were Iranian Officials present to watch.

[Titus]

That's hardly proof that they are going to sell them. I fail to see any precedent.

[Mediocrates]

The precident is that they've already cooperated on missile and nuclear development and have already sold missile technology to Iran.

[Titus]

Source please.

[Mediocrates]

dear me don't be dense. try the BBC.

[Titus]

I'm waiting for a quote and appropriate reference. One that does not say "US intelligence believes" or "US officials today announced".

[Gershon]

I'm waiting for a quote and appropriate reference. One that does not say "US intelligence believes" or "US officials today announced".
from Lazarus'

North Korea has proven time and again that it will sell it's technology to the highest bidder. During the missile test on July 4th there were Iranian Officials present to watch
then Titus


That's hardly proof that they are going to sell them. I fail to see any precedent.


Mediocrates

The precident is that they've already cooperated on missile and nuclear development and have already sold missile technology to Iran.


Titus



I'm waiting for a quote and appropriate reference. One that does not say "US intelligence believes" or "US officials today announced".


Titus, do some research on the Nodong missile North Korea imported to Iran for its Shahab-3, and the SCUD B and C factories by North Korea in Iran. Maybe your country spends as much on intelligence as the U.S. does on WMD so you won't need "US intelligence believes." Check out how much nuclear material DPRK sold to Muammer Ghaddafi and what they're producing now for consumption.Maybe start here (http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Focus/IaeaDprk/).

Iran Watch (http://www.iranwatch.org/update/index.html)
The latest report by the Central Intelligence Agency on transfers of mass destruction weapon technology, which covers a six-month period from July 1 through December 31, 2003, claims that Iran has continued to seek “foreign materials, training, equipment, and know-how” from entities in Russia, China, North Korea and Europe, and has received “significant assistance” from the network headed by A.Q. Khan.

Iran’s 1,300 kilometer Shahab-3 missile is essentially an imported North Korean Nodong missile enhanced by Russian technology.
North Korea, in addition to selling the Nodong missile, has furnished Iran a fleet of SCUD-B and SCUD-C short-range missiles, plus the factories to make them. Both the SCUD-B and SCUD-C have a diameter sufficient to accommodate a compact nuclear warhead.Penalties for proliferation towards Iran were also imposed by the State Department on January 3, 2005, on December 1, 2004 and on September 23, 2004, mainly against Chinese and North Korean entities.

The Associated Press (http://www.ncr-iran.org/content/view/2100/71/)- The Bush administration has imposed sanctions against seven foreign companies, including two from India and two from Russia, for business dealings with Iran involving sensitive technology, according to an announcement Friday.
Also sanctioned were Korean Mining and Industrial Development Corp. and Korea Pugang Trading Corp., both North Korean.

[AnotherAlly]

Well, think about it this way. If Kim Jong Il is both unstable and posesses nuclear weapons do you think he would hesitate to use them if he was going to be captured and probably executed.

Doesn't matter, his nukes would never reach the major US cities.

[Bheeshma]

Source please.

North korea had already bartered their missile (chinese) for the paki nukes (again chinese). Why wouldn't they sell it to iran for money? Are you just dumb or acting so?

[minusthejihad]

man those religious folk... can yoou see any difference between muslims and new borns when it comes to fanaticism

Yes, born agains don't kill people who don't agree with their faith. Muslim fanatics do. Settled!

[Bushwacker]

but they support who does the killing...no big deal...

[Lazarus]

Of course we support military action when a nation is attacted for no reason. No, forgive me. There is a reason. Muslims Hate Jews, Christians and anyone who denies that Mohammad (may he burn in hell) is THE great profit.

[Eil]

Considering that this crisis could have been avoided, and considering that there is --and has been-- a solution almost begging to be made, one cannot but conclude that all of this death, destruction and agony will, in retrospect, be adjudged as having been in vain.
No matter how much longer this fight goes on, the truth of the matter is that political negotiations will be endgame.
The solution that will present itself a week, a month or a year from now will be, in essence, the same solution as the one available today, and which, tragicaly, was available before a single shot was fired or a single child killed.

[farmall]

"The solution that will present itself a week, a month or a year from now will be, in essence, the same solution as the one available today, and which, tragicaly, was available before a single shot was fired or a single child killed."

Killing is a normal part of territorial competition and not very interesting. Once we fully accept that the only way to get to the endgame is a vastly greater level of DECISIVE violence instead of the trifling little wars and skirmishes so far, there may be progress to solution.

Ironically, the pacifists and the people who care about a "single child killed" are the problem, because those atttitudes breed restraint which protracts the conflict. If neither side sustains enough casualties or damage to stop them from fighting effectively, then there is no reason for this conflict to end.

[LifeC]

Considering that this crisis could have been avoided, and considering that there is --and has been-- a solution almost begging to be made, one cannot but conclude that all of this death, destruction and agony will, in retrospect, be adjudged as having been in vain.
No matter how much longer this fight goes on, the truth of the matter is that political negotiations will be endgame.
The solution that will present itself a week, a month or a year from now will be, in essence, the same solution as the one available today, and which, tragicaly, was available before a single shot was fired or a single child killed.

Why are people so thick in their heads?
http://www.abortiontv.com/Pics/AbortionPictures1.htm
Nobody fights countries over deaths of children. It happens in almost every modern state today!
Hypocricy is not getting us anywhere.
This will end in an all out war. It is the wish of the many.

[rhodescholar]

Aaaah, my favorite poster, hiya farmall.

.....I will leave that to the learned, but in the battle between opposing faiths the historic,proven way to win is to prove, by force, that the deity the other fellow worships does nothing for him or his people when they are in extremis.

Agreed, but I believe that a very large number of muslims will need to be killed BECAUSE they cannot separate from their fanatacism the way the de-Nazification program de-programmed the Germans. Islam is so ingrained into them, both as a religion AND as a way of life politically, that they cannot be separated.

Modern, total war in which there are no safe zones and where core expectations are shattered is the way to damage Islamist faith. Only total war will do, because it involves destruction of holy places and population centers in the manner of World War II.

The problem, at least for the time being, are the liberals in the media, the NGOs like HRW and AI, and the dreamers who believe that we "only need to listen to their very legitimate grievances" that are preventing the WEst from doing what will be necessary.

Unfortunately, by the time the general public displays a determination to brush aside the garbage serving as obstacles to the situation, it might be too late, as in nuclear bombs have already been detonated in Western cities.

The WEAKNESS of those methods is that they are so outrageous to Western sensibilities that they erode the compassion/weakness toward an enemy using them and liberate the Western mind from the self-imposed restraint it would prefer against a "civilized" enemy.

The erosion of the resistance in the west to using massive force is already underway. I will address this in a new thread.

[Eytan]

Considering that this crisis could have been avoided, and considering that there is --and has been-- a solution almost begging to be made, one cannot but conclude that all of this death, destruction and agony will, in retrospect, be adjudged as having been in vain.
No matter how much longer this fight goes on, the truth of the matter is that political negotiations will be endgame.
The solution that will present itself a week, a month or a year from now will be, in essence, the same solution as the one available today, and which, tragicaly, was available before a single shot was fired or a single child killed.
you're not telling the truth, would GMA have moved in his soldiers to the south in to enforce the taif agreement, or 1559 before the war happened?

How come the army or police didn't step in and arrest the kidnappers, as would happen in any civilized country?
If you can't enforce the laws of you country.. your police and army are powerless, do you even have a country? what use are judges and courts, when they only apply to those who don't have weapons.. why don't the LF,FPM,etc.. just re-arm, that way they won't have to obey the law either, the LF can go kidnap syrians to demand the release of the thousands of hostages in syria which everyone seemed to have forgotten.. strange.. lebanese kids being beaten and tortured in syrian jails.. and your priority is the baby killer kuntar..

Your army is now in the south.. that wouldn't have happened if this war didn't happen, and I don't think that the hezbi's have the balls to come out of thier houses and shoot at the army, and start another civil war. US/World money is going to start comming, and now maybe you'll finally have a soveriegn country.

[Eil]

you're not telling the truth, would GMA have moved in his soldiers to the south in to enforce the taif agreement, or 1559 before the war happened?

How come the army or police didn't step in and arrest the kidnappers, as would happen in any civilized country?
If you can't enforce the laws of you country.. your police and army are powerless, do you even have a country? what use are judges and courts, when they only apply to those who don't have weapons.. why don't the LF,FPM,etc.. just re-arm, that way they won't have to obey the law either, the LF can go kidnap syrians to demand the release of the thousands of hostages in syria which everyone seemed to have forgotten.. strange.. lebanese kids being beaten and tortured in syrian jails.. and your priority is the baby killer kuntar..

Your army is now in the south.. that wouldn't have happened if this war didn't happen, and I don't think that the hezbi's have the balls to come out of thier houses and shoot at the army, and start another civil war. US/World money is going to start comming, and now maybe you'll finally have a soveriegn country.

lol, how do u know if i'm telling the truth or not? Well for your info, GMA was exiled during the syrian era for 15 years, he is the man behind the 1559 , but also he called for peaceful application of the 1559.because force will lead to another civil war.
and GMA is the only one now calling for the release of lebanese prisoners in Syria.
GMA now is not part of the goverment, he is in opposition.

[Aysun]

Yes, there is a big difference. Christians don't talk about destroying another country because we don't like them. We don't kill in order to go to heaven and recieve 70 virgins. We are taught to "Love thy neighbor" not "Kill the infitale".


ah yes your country doesn't destroy another country just because you don't like them. but she destroys another country just because she loves oil...

[AnotherAlly]

ah yes your country doesn't destroy another country just because you don't like them. but she destroys another country just because she loves oil...

Because the old leader of that country was such an outstanding guy?

[Bushwacker]

same country supports mini dictators in other countries... dont try to sell us that crabby patty

[Aysun]

Because the old leader of that country was such an outstanding guy?

and I am still wondering where did this old leader hide his "weapon of mass destruction" ? nobody was able to find it yet. he must have buried it somewhere very deep ;)

[Eytan]

lol, how do u know if i'm telling the truth or not? Well for your info, GMA was exiled during the syrian era for 15 years, he is the man behind the 1559 , but also he called for peaceful application of the 1559.because force will lead to another civil war.
and GMA is the only one now calling for the release of lebanese prisoners in Syria.
GMA now is not part of the goverment, he is in opposition.

I was just typing it out, the comments are from a friend of mine who was there for the 1/2 the war (he's from the south). I think the GMA part was sarcasm, because of lahoud's (if I remember right) comments on "just criminals in syria", and GMA's & the orange hard stand with HA. the fact that all the mess was done just to free someone who would be considered scumm in the rest of the world, while he has family sitting in a syrian jail just for being antii syrian.

But I think his main point where he said "you're lying" was about the fact that the army couldn't go south if this didn't happen, and HN would still be king of hos own county inside lebanon..

[AnotherAlly]

and I am still wondering where did this old leader hide his "weapon of mass destruction" ? nobody was able to find it yet. he must have buried it somewhere very deep ;)

The Iraqi people are struggling through a terrible time, but most are thankful that Saddam is no longer in power, yes?

[Bushwacker]

we need a few iraqis to find out... but i think they miss him... or they just confuse gerenades with flowers

[AnotherAlly]

we need a few iraqis to find out... but i think they miss him... or they just confuse gerenades with flowers
The ones that miss him have been using the grenades on the people that are trying to stop and smell the flowers.

[Bushwacker]

this subject requires a long discussion and thats not gonna take us anywhere because you and i will be right most of the time...

civilizations need to suffer to learn the value of the things they miss (french revolution as an example)
but iraqis are not ready for democracy... cos if they were they would be the ones to overthrow saddam.. you cannot bring them democracy as long as they are equipped to embrace it... it is like picking up a ripe fruit to make jam... you will eat what you pick i say... another example is turkey... Ataturk gave us democracy when he was ready but we were not ready...so we are still struggling for it and you know that...


i know you are a patriot cos you said it yourself... so do you really think that USA is in iraq to bring democracy? many including me dont think so...

[AnotherAlly]

i know you are a patriot cos you said it yourself... so do you really think that USA is in iraq to bring democracy? many including me dont think so...



No, the USA is in Iraq because we have no love for the soldiers that are dying there everyday.

Our interests lie in creating instability in the region, so that the price of oil in the Middle East rises to record levels, damaging our economy more than it ever has before.



We went to Afghanistan, then Iraq. The country in between the two is the biggest problem, that's why we're saving them for last. In baseball, we call it the "old squeeze play." ;)

[Aysun]

The Iraqi people are struggling through a terrible time, but most are thankful that Saddam is no longer in power, yes?

many thousands of innocent Iraqi people died after you invaded Iraq. and still average of 50 people are dying everyday. and a civil war is about to begin. and you still think that they are thankful because you invaded their country? please...