View Full Version : Is Avigdor Lieberman mad?
Lieberman: National Union to join European nationalists
By Ha'aretz Service
Last update - 15:15 03/07/2002
National Union leader MK Avigdor Lieberman said Wednesday that his party was planning to join a coalition of far-right European political movements. Members of the coalition include Austria's far-right Freedom party, headed by Joerg Haider, as well as the Italian nationalist party, an offshoot of the fascist movement.
Lieberman told Israel Radio that the move was "legitimate," in spite of the presence of the Austrian Freedom party, which Israel has boycotted.
"In order to fulfil our interests we can use a number of means, including legitimate political ones," Lieberman said.
"We checked if Le Pen's party was included... and we were told explicitly that it wasn't. We also checked on whether the Italian [fascist] party was included, but I am not totally on the ball on that subject," the former minister said.
Lieberman added that the far-right Austrian party was also part of the coalition, and that the Foreign Ministry was in contact with it. That's some contact for Israel's Foreign Ministry too...
This seems to serve for a considerable stir today:
Jul. 3, 2002
Yisrael Beiteinu seeking alliance with EU far right
By NINA GILBERT
Among those who addressed the gathering last week were Italian Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini, head of the National Alliance, which has its historical roots in Mussolini's Fascist Party. Mussolini's granddaughter is a party representative in Italian parliament.
Other far-right parties involved in the group are from Denmark, Ireland, and France, but not Jean Marie Le Pen's National Front.
Austria's far-right Freedom party, headed by Joerg Haider, is also involved in the political group and contacts are being held with it on joining the alliance.
Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior (Labor-Meimad) said that as a party leader and a Jew he regrets that Yisrael Beiteinu is choosing to join such a forum. "These parties represent views that are foreign to Judaism," he said. He noted that the Danish party in the group led a campaign in Denmark against allowing the production of kosher meat.
Lieberman bolsters ties with EU rightists
By Lily Galili
Lieberman said there was, of course, no legal way for an Israeli party to join a bloc in the European Parliament, but noted he intended to cooperate with the said political group, which supports Israel's full inclusion in the EU and is opposed to Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic migration to Europe.
"There is a limit to all hypocrisy," Lieberman said. "We were invited and we took up the invitation. It makes no difference to us if they are anti-Muslim out of nationalist perceptions, as long as they are the most pro-Israeli segment in the European Union."
Lieberman stressed his party had no ties whatsoever with Haider's party, noting, however, he believed the Austrian nationalist had retracted his anti-Semitic expressions of the past. - Not that I know.
Can someone explain to me what is going on? Is there any chance they'll lock up the politicians responsible for this madness in a lunatic asylum for good?
(Yes, NewsGuy, I very much hope this will be read by the appropriate quarters ;) )
Here is the record of some of Mr. Lieberman's new friends:
Alleanza Nazionale (National Alliance â€“ AN), Italy: http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/italy.htm
Freiheitliche Partei Ã–sterreichs (Austrian Freedom Party â€“ FPÃ–): http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/austria.htm
Here is some background info on Lieberman:
As reluctant as I am to criticise any Israeli's views from the relative safety of NY, Mr. Lieberman seems somewhat... frightening.
I am less reluctant, due to close proximity and personal encounters with his new best friends. Reading this makes me want to immigrate to the moon.
It's not just about the "European Jews". What has Israel to gain by associating itself with the worst of Europe?
During the emigration process, we spent about a week in Vienna, Austria and about 1 1/2 month in Italy.
The Vienna experience, for my family and for other people I know, was punctuated by the antisemitic incidents (nothing life-threatening, but extremely unpleasant :mad: )
The Italian portion, however, was quite the opposite. We lived in a town called Ladispoli, which at the time had Fascists governing the City Hall. Not to ignore the dangers of the Italian Fascist party, - it's an ugly critter to be sure, - but the actual, on-the-ground expression of that "philosophy" was limited to swastika painted on the walls of some buildings, in Ladispoli anyway. The populace we came in contact with - the store clerks, our landlady, the nuns that were everywhere , was very compassionate to our plight: we got advice on how to cheat the electric company :) , a free "bombula" (gas heater, essential in that part of the world in a resort town), free cold cuts, and other random expressions of support from various townspeople, many of whom must have voted for the nuts in the government!
I do think that Lieberman has lost his marbles to consider aligning with the Fascists, but "politics make strange bedfellows". I understand why he wants to join with them, what I don't understand is why they want to join with him , and at which point they will consider themselves done with the Muslims and begin work on the Jews, since IMHO this progression is inevitable.
Originally posted by elke
During the emigration process, we spent about a week in Vienna, Austria and about 1 1/2 month in Italy.
The Vienna experience, for my family and for other people I know, was punctured by the antisemitic incidents (nothing life-threatening, but extremely unpleasant :mad: )
The Italian portion, however, was quite the opposite. We lived in a town called Ladispoli, which at the time had Fascists governing the City Hall. Not to ignore the dangers of the Italian Fascist party, - it's an ugly critter to be sure, - but the actual, on-the-ground expression of that "philosophy" was limited to swastika painted on the walls of some buildings, in Ladispoli anyway. The populace we came in contact with - the store clerks, our landlady, the nuns that were everywhere , was very compassionate to our plight: we got advice on how to cheat the electric company :) , a free "bombula" (gas heater, essential in that part of the world in a resort town), free cold cuts, and other random expressions of support from various townspeople, many of whom must have voted for the nuts in the government!There is always a certain randomness in such encounters, Elke, one should never go by them. There exists, for example, a particularly obnoxious kind of antisemite, the one with "Jewish friends". Such people can be very helpful on personal level towards individual Jews (they just love Jews in difficult personal circumstances), acquiring a kind of alibi against antisemitism they can flaunt in the face of anyone who dares to question their overall political views - but don't learn to know them better or try to dig deeper. I do not say that this is always the case, many times the motivation may be perfectly respectable. Still - you cannot judge people by isolated acts.
I do think that Lieberman has lost his marbles to consider aligning with the Fascists, but "politics make strange bedfellows". I understand why he wants to join with them, what I don't understand is why they want to join with him , The other way round for me. They want to acquire "court Jews", cheap, obedient alibis. He is at best a pathetic backwater creature flattered by such international "civilized" attention. Which makes him more of a national security risk for Israel that the PA, Hamas and Islamic Jihad together.
and at which point they will consider themselves done with the Muslims and begin work on the Jews, since IMHO this progression is inevitable. You are hitting the nail right on the head :) . Such idiots are as much of a security risk for a country in Israel's situation as PA, Hamas and Islamic Jihad added up.
A therapy proposal: send Mr. L. and his crowd on a prolonged trip through neighborhoods controlled by his new friends' youngish fans - without bodyguards. This is the only thing that might cure them, provided they survive the experience.
I am almost sure that we were both thinking the same thing at some point: One good reason to despise the "Russians"
No question that individual experiences vary dramatically, and that they need to be taken with more than one grain of salt. I wouldn't dismiss such experiences out of hand, however, even if I am amply familiar with this sort of antisemitism - in fact, it seems to be the prevalent kind at this time.
Individuals make up ideology, and ideology in turn, makes up individual. It's a symbiotic relationship between the two. While individual experiences cannot have adequate range to be considered statistically valid, they give depth to the statistical analysis, IMO.
I don't know what my reaction would be if it was my children threatened by the suicide murderers from within a few miles of my home. That's why I am loath to criticise too strongly any Israeli view. Lieberman, according to one of the articles above, believes that the far-right parties are in favor of Israel's entry into the EU. IMO, he is wrong to rely on such partners: I think that they - as a whole - are only offering that bait because they want to gain his trust. If - or when - they get adequate support for their platform, they will drop him and Israel like a hot potato. What I really don't understand though is why they should really want his trust in the first place.
I undertstand you reservations, Elke, but they are unapplicable in this case. The horror of the Israeli situation is in no way mitigated by an Israeli party prostituting itself as a temporary disposable figleaf for political groups who have never really rejected the notion that mass murder of people based on their ethnicity is not neccessarily a bad idea if it serves what they consider the higher interests of their ethnic group. If the violence originating from this sector has so far resulted in less victims than the Palestinian terror then it is because it doesn't pay politically in current Europe not because they reject in on principle or are not capable of it. You should have seen reports on some of their youth groups' training camps. I know people who have been mutilated by their adherents just for looking "foreign". (They do have a loose structure among their supporters, leaving plenty space for deniability in the narrow legal sense - wonder where the Palestinians got the same great idea from). Maybe you have heard of letter-bombing series here too, some years ago. What would you say if an Israeli party leader would declare Ku-Klux-Klan and Stormfront or some "cover" party for them (I don't really know the American political landscape well enough - is there such a thing?) his best friends?
Given both the Israeli and the local Jewish inaction and unforgivable blunders on the PR front this puts both in a corner from which it would be hard to escape, even if the wonder should happen and there will be a sane political strategy on this some day. This undermines efforts to secure reliable political allies, for one. It forces any Jewish public figure to offer a kind of excuse for this act. It pushes both Israel and Jews in general in a corner they do not belong to, neither politically nor culturally. Jews have been mostly associated with liberalism here, with an independent position, with sovereignity, a considerable advantage if only the "leadership" would know how to use it. Other minority groups have to fight much harder for a similar perception, we get it for free. Along comes Mr. L. and makes himself, his country and everyone associated with it to marionettes of some of the most despicable political forces we have here, turning the main - be it Jewish, be it Israeli - message from one of justice into one of hate. What an accomplishment, so effortless too.
I can think of two explanations for the actions of Mr. L.'s friends. One is a certain sadistic joy in getting their own Jew, tying him up, making him toe the line and thus a public idiot of himself and anyone associated with him. To use him against other Jews, to stifle Jewish criticism directed at them: see, we have our own Jews, genuine Israelis at that, leading politicians - and who are you, who is there to support you?, in short, to vilify Jews. The other is to provoke an all-out conflict with European Muslims, to destabilize the overall situation, using Mr. L., well-known for his (I understand, often unqualified) anti-Palestinian stance as a kind of red rag. None of this can benefit Israel, see above. I am a poor judge on whether this move is likely to inflame Palestinian (Arab, Moslem...) passions further too - outside of Europe. It would certainly serve for more support for them here. I cannot recognize a single gain for Israel on the other hand.
What did they do with Mr. L. and his followers, I wonder? Treat them to old wine in the best restaurants, take their wives out for expensive shopping, compliment them for their "Europeanness"? Did they seriously believe a whispered promise to support Israel's EU membership? Well, they are not the first "savages" to succumb to such generous treatment by the "Whites".
This is incredibly, sickeningly, miserably pathetic. I hate it.
I'd rather stop here...
07-04-2002, 05:18 PM
Other far-right parties involved in the group are from Denmark, Ireland, and France, but not Jean Marie Le Pen's National Front.
Thereâ€™s no question that Europe is moving to the right. But the author of the article must be looking for sensationalism when she groups all the parties that she considers right wing parties into one group.
I think when you compare a shoplifter to a mass murderer youâ€™re clearly showing ignorance.
To compare the Danish right wing party to the Austrian right wing party is just plain goofy.
Perhaps there are those that want the EU flooded with POTENTIAL Islamic Fundamentalist/Extremist but Iâ€™m not one of them. I donâ€™t think it would be a good picture for Israel if Muslims overran the whole European Continent.
Then there would be Islamic Law and they would surely finish off the remaining Jews and millions of Infidels.
At some point you have to draw the line and Haider would be a good place to start and I wouldnâ€™t support a party headed by a neo Nazi (He might be a Muslim in the closet). The NF in France with le Pen at the Helm should be considered a party thatâ€™s teetering on the line. Whilst I donâ€™t support Le Pen I think that it would be good for the EU if some of the parties immigration policies had been implemented.
The horror of the Israeli situation is in no way mitigated by an Israeli party prostituting itself as a temporary disposable figleaf for political groups
You certainly have a way with words, Vic! Good job! :cool:
If you are correct, and Mr. Lieberman is indeed a "figleaf", then the question that begs asking is: what are their ultimate plans regarding Israel? What are their plans towards their internal Jewish communities?
And then: given his experience and - presumably, at least rudimentary intelligence, why aren't Lieberman's alarms ringing? What all-overriding advantage could he see in this observer status for Israel?
Haider's party apparently is a part of this coalition, and while Lieberman did check about LePen's, Haider's didn't seem to faze him ("I am not on the ball on that," - he says)...
Here is a possibility, in the manner of conspiracy theories :D:
These Conservative parties want "ethnically clean" Europe: no Muslims, no Jews. Genocide seems to be an unrealistic option, so the next best thing is expulsion. The question arises: where to? Well, Muslims have plenty of places, but the Jews are rather problematic: they have been part of these countries from time immemorial, and they may not all want to leave for Israel. So, let's make Israel attractive, so when we make their life miserable here, they will just leave.
Now, let's look at Lieberman:
I had an interesting encounter with a seemingly very intelligent, articulate, Jewish man who believed that we all would be better off if there were more skinheads around. According to him, this would assure our "purity" and lead us back to the "true Jewishness". My gut feeling is that Lieberman's views are not too dissimilar to this, based on what I have read about him. Therefore, no alarms are ringing, since this is precisely what he wants: the situation in Europe deteriorate, and people come to Israel.
Nutsy, I know. It's just that I am fresh out of ideas...
07-04-2002, 09:39 PM
When I first heard about this story, the first thing to come to mind, even though it's not appropriate, was the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Consider that the right-wing in the US is forging close ties with Israel. One difference here is that the most objectionable right-wing elements are all combined into a single party in a typical European country. I don't know what percentage this would represent of the population, but I would guess something like 10-20%.
In the US the right-wing in the Republican party is diluted somewhat because this 10-20% has to share space with relative moderates. But be assured you can find common elements. And typically the more right-wing in the US, the stronger the support of Israel (this is not universal of course, since there is also a right-wing element that strongly disfavors Israel, but I suspect it's the same in Europe also).
Thus, if this alliance is wrong in Europe, I'm not sure it's correct in the US. Or vice versa.
I also don't think the right-wing parties in Denmark and the Netherlands are the same as those of Austria or France.
There is little, if any, moderate or left-wing support for Israel in Europe. To try to address this positively, is there any progress in developing alliances with non-right-wing elements in Europe?
If I understand this situation correctly, the reasons are as follows:
First of all, the European burden of history viz. the Jews provides for a completely different frame of reference. In the case of Haider's Party, for example, this is a Faustian Pact with the Devil.
Second of all, the Jewish-Conservative alliance in the US seems to be rather limited to the causes near and dear to both parties, albeit for different reasons. Even so, it gives the heebie-jeebies to many of us. The frightening thing about Mr. Lieberman is his apparent drive to keep his eyes on the prize, with no regard for the means to get same. It makes one wonder if he knows what he is getting himself - and Israel - into.
I would be flat against any sort of alliance with any Nazi, White Supremacist, or skinhead party whatever, regardless of how much they may loath the terrorists and how much they may purport to love the Jews. Ultimately, if these people can't accept the humanity of one group of people, what makes you think they will accept yours? The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend. S/he may well turn out to be more of an enemy to me than the one I consider as "enemy" at this moment.
07-05-2002, 09:15 AM
The link to the following article was posted in another thread ( I think by Vic).
Commentators are squeezing very different parties into the same category
Where extreme parties win electoral support, it is not that voters are 'voting for fascism' or endorsing everything the party stands for. Rather, it is a sign of isolation from mainstream politics. Across Europe, votes for small hard-right parties look like a two-finger '**** you' to traditional politicians, rather than an endorsement of Nazism.
Even the immigration question - which all of the far right parties flag up - is not the same today as it was in the past. People's fear of immigration in modern Europe seems to have less to do with old-fashioned racism and xenophobia, than with a broader sense of fear and insecurity. Contemporary debates about immigration, particularly in the wake of 11 September, express society's general fear of risk and the unknown, more than an old-time hatred of Johnny Foreigner.
Being anti-immigration is hardly a political stance exclusive to far right parties. Schroeder's Germany and Blair's Britain - the two leaders who have been most vocal about tackling the far right - both have restrictive immigration policies. In the same week that Blair stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Schroeder against the threat of the racist right, his home secretary David Blunkett announced the building of three huge 'accommodation centres' (otherwise known as prisons) in the UK, each of which will be able to hold 750 asylum seekers before booting them out of the country.
Shechitah Back "In" In Holland
A compromise has been reached in Holland that will allow kosher ritual slaughter in the country. A month ago, Dutch health authorities banned the kosher slaughter of large animals, such as bulls, with the claim that the "shechitah" process caused suffering to the animal. Jewish communal leaders and the Dutch Health Minister recently met, HaTzofeh reports, and it was agreed that the process would be permitted if it took no longer than three seconds. Jewish Law forbids causing animals to suffer.
Using history as a guide itâ€™s certainly all right to be vigilant regarding the political shift in Europe but not to the point where you donâ€™t build alliances.
I think it would be fair to say that anti Semitism increases with the build up of Muslims in the EU. That is not to say that every Muslim on this planet is anti Semitic but evidence indicates that a large percentage possess this trait.
If countries in the EU recognize this trait and elect to close the borders then as far as Iâ€™m concerned they are doing this to protect its citizens. As far as I know the Jewish population is included in the citizenship of Europe holding prominent positions in the various political parties and the civil service. Not only that many politicians would sell their mother for a dime so its not surprising that they take an anti Israel stance to protect their votes considering the large Muslim population in the EU.
As far as the ritual slaughter of animals go I agree that this should be done as humanely as possible. Life doesnâ€™t stay at a â€œstatus quoâ€ and whatever we know today may be proved wrong tomorrow and Iâ€™m certain that animal physiologists and/or behaviorist would agree with that. No one should be exempt from laws that protect the rights of animals. In the case of Holland a compromise was reached protecting the animals rights under the law. One might take the attitude that the animal is going to die anyways â€œso whatâ€ but I donâ€™t.
Here is an example of the attitude that scares me (quoted from that article listed above):
"Jorg Haider's Freedom Party in Austria (27 percent of the vote) may be obnoxious and anti-Semitic - but this is hardly a novel stance in Austrian politics. There have been, and still are, many anti-Semitic parties in Austria - but there has only ever been one Nazi Party."
The way history repeats itself is not exact: situations mutate. We may not find the growth in the Nazi party membership per se, but some - or all - of its insideous policies will bear fruit in other parties' platforms. If the situation deteriorates, economically or politically, the scapegoats will be found, and the situation for Jews will deteriorate. The Jews can't control how people think and vote, but we can - and should - control who we associate with. We need to associate with people whose basic belief system is not unlike our own, and who will be friends in deed.
07-05-2002, 02:44 PM
Haider is most likely from Muslim extract and I know his father was without question a Nazi.
The scariest scenario I can think of is Europe under Islamic Law. I know that it becomes a â€œCatch 22â€ situation the right wants to curb immigration while the left leaves the gates open.
So the question becomes do I support immigration or not?
I guess if you support a EU with a majority Muslim population you vote left and if you donâ€™t vote right.
Thereâ€™s plenty of evidence that anti Semitism is on the rise against Jews in the EU and young Muslims are at the root of the incidents.
At some point you have to draw the line and I certainly wouldnâ€™t support Haider or Le Pen. I admit that I like some of the platforms in the French NF party such as curbing Muslim immigration. Iâ€™ve taken that position due to the fact that a large percentage of the Muslim population support terrorism in the ME.
Have fear spider because I'm not a pacefist!
The question is: where is the European center ? Not right, not left, but in the middle: i.e. sane, reasonable policies. To me, that's where we should be able to find the kind of support we need. It's certainly where our efforts need to be concentrated, IMHO.
I agree with you, L@mplighter, regarding the animals. There is no reason whatsoever to hurt them any more than absolutely necessary, regardless of the religious practices. Was there a similar ban on halal meat though? It is my understanding that Muslims butcher their animals in a similar way to us.
Have fear spider because I'm not a pacefist!
07-05-2002, 04:42 PM
Here?s a link to the laws governing the ritual slaughter of animals in various countries. I know Muslims(Germany) applied to (German Courts)and was given the green light to ritually kill animals in January 2002 and I assume that the Rabbis already had permission.
In Sweden the animals have to be stunned before they are killed and the Rabbis agreed to that procedure, as did the Muslims. Muslims asked for and was given an exemption in Norway and I imagine that the Jewish population there could do the same.
I don?t have a problem with people supporting whatever party they choose to support. I support the right because I believe they will protect the European Jewry. I?m quite willing to admit that I?m not certain that will be the case and as a matter of fact I have been wrong a few times in my life.
It?s much more difficult for a democratic nation to have a secret agenda these days and the world is much more militant.
The best friends sometimes turn out to be the greatest enemies and visa versa.
Israel is a small proud nation and it needs allies wherever it can find them.
I?ve seen Peres shake Arafat?s hand and quite frankly I don?t believe you can get lower than that.
Looking at this link, it seems that the ban was applied fairly and was not a matter of antisemitism. This is good to see.
The reality is this: everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, that's a given. Under normal circumstances, with any other nation, decision such as Lieberman's would barely raise an eyebrow - after all, it's only one of how many parties in Israel? However, in this world we are living in, life isn't fair. Antisemitism is rampant, even if its ugliest manifestations are - so far - coming from the young Muslims. If this pact will provide Israel with what it's after, there are surely strings attached - so the question is what are those strings.
We must ask this question now, it may be too late when we wake up.
07-05-2002, 06:57 PM
With or without Israel Europe is moving to the right. No nation can prosper if it makes itself an island.
No one knows what lies ahead the world could be engulfed in flames before the years end. Anything that we do today isnâ€™t everlasting. I could go on.
Iâ€™ll support any party that wants to put a stop to immigration from Islam. I posted an article the other day that indicated 106.4 million young Arabs would like to leave for the west.
I donâ€™t know if a Muslim can be truly peaceful or not. What I do know is that Islam isnâ€™t my cup of tea.
07-06-2002, 05:29 AM
Fascinating slaughter link. I wonder if they are so obsessed with the conditions under which LIVING animals are kept? Or is that merely a matter of EU economics and suddenly not under the scope of these laws?
Clearly there is nothing like this kind of scrunity under which the caring and FEEDING of these animals is held else they would not have experienced Mad Cow Disease. Clearly, while they can smugly fold their arms and keep the animals safe from 'barbaric' ritual slaughter they STILL had mass destructions from Hoof and Mouth. So let's call a spade a spade and say that the laws are intended to be discriminatory against both
Kosher and Halal duties.
07-06-2002, 07:43 AM
I care more about how an animal is slaughtered vs. how an Islamic extremist terrorist meets his/her end. I?d like to know who I?m discriminating against if I have these concerns.
Animals aren?t kept in optimum conditions to be sure especially chickens (and other fowl) and pigs.
The various SPCA?s across North America have/are adopting new measures to deal with stray animals. If my memory serves me correctly euthanasia has been banned some places.
Originally posted by Elke, post #10, http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=15154#post15154
Now, let's look at Lieberman:
I had an interesting encounter with a seemingly very intelligent, articulate, Jewish man who believed that we all would be better off if there were more skinheads around. According to him, this would assure our "purity" and lead us back to the "true Jewishness". My gut feeling is that Lieberman's views are not too dissimilar to this, based on what I have read about him. Therefore, no alarms are ringing, since this is precisely what he wants: the situation in Europe deteriorate, and people come to Israel.And then the situation explodes and all of Israel's population will be transferred to the moon, with Mr. L. and his cronies deciding who is pure enough to get the oxygen. A magnificient perspective for a truly glorious future.
What sort of concept of Israel do such people have? A country of refugees, frightened helpless wretches, bullied, chased into entering it - with the help of the very government at whose mercy they are expected to throw themselves? "I help to get your family members crippled and murdered, your property looted, you lives destroyed, I dance on the graves of your annihilated forebears, I defile their memory - so trust me, I know what is best for you, and anyway you are left with no alternatives, hahaha". There must be a serious psychological problem behind such aspirations. A quest for unlimited power?
I find considerable consolation in the fact that his party has achieved only 2,6% of votes in the last elections. Which begs the question whether a higher minimal level of votes required to enter the Knesset would make sense (it's usually 5% around here, resulting mostly in 3 to 5 party parliaments). But this is off-topic.
Here is a possibility, in the manner of conspiracy theories :
These Conservative parties want "ethnically clean" Europe: no Muslims, no Jews. Genocide seems to be an unrealistic option, so the next best thing is expulsion. The question arises: where to? Well, Muslims have plenty of places, but the Jews are rather problematic: they have been part of these countries from time immemorial, and they may not all want to leave for Israel. So, let's make Israel attractive, so when we make their life miserable here, they will just leave.Make it simpler. They want power. The best way they can get it is by destabilizing their countries, by creating an atmosphere of panic. They don't care about minorities or other political groups as such, once they are in power they are sure they'll be able to deal with them. They are unlikely to have such explicit long-term plans, they'll switch their policies, rhetoric and alliances as they go along. Israel comes in useful now, tomorrow they'll be hugging Saddam Hussein. This is exactly what gives me a creepy feeling, just like the Nazis...
Supporting them, playing their game is suicidal policy for Israel, from a purely pragmatic point of view. Disgusting as the current European policy, or mostly rhetoric, on the Middle East might be, it is still nothing compared to the dangers that would be posed for Israel by an Europe on the verge of a civil war. And then there is the insignificant aspect of morality (where is a fellow poster gone, who didn't quite get my point on Jewish morality in theory and practice?) - realpolitik or not, this is repulsive. Imagine the leaders of European Jewish communities paying a respectful visit to Sheikh Yassin in order to tell him that they do not really mind the fight against the occuoation - in return for a promise not to target the "Diaspora" Jews...
As for the European-Israeli relations, the European political "center" etc., it's an interesting question, or rather many questions in one. I'll try to write about it later. I've posted a reply to Lamplighter's ravings in the "Danish immigration laws" thread: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=15687#post15687
07-09-2002, 09:38 AM
Thereâ€™s no question that the EU is finding itself in a bind right now some countries a whole lot more than others because of the large Muslim population base. Anti Semitism is on the rise and the inaction of some governments are not excusable.
It doesnâ€™t take much of a brainchild to figure what the outcome will be if the current policies arenâ€™t revised. I posted a link the other day indicating that there are 106.4 million young Muslims that want to emigrate to the west.
I for one donâ€™t want to see another holocaust in the EU being carried out by the new Nazis. Steps have to be taken now to eliminate this possibility. There are clear indications that the EU shift to the right is received with mixed blessings in some communities and rightfully so.
As Iâ€™ve indicated before this shift becomes a â€œCatch 22â€ type of a situation. The EU Jewry has witnessed a large growth in anti Semitism from Muslims (even to the point where they have openly advocated the death of Jews) and must surely want that to disappear. On the other hand thereâ€™s cause for concern because the right movements might eventually want to cleanse the EU off Jews. I also believe that I stated that itâ€™s up to individuals to make their own decision regarding this serious matter.
Iâ€™ve taken the position that the latter presents less of a problem at the present and therefore itâ€™s my feeling that the EU should close itâ€™s borders to Islam. My stance is based on the evil teachings that come from the Koran. No book or its teachers should advocate the murder of anyone and instill hate or indifference towards a people.
I'll have to accept your analysis of what this conservative coalition is after, since I really don't know enough about it to be able to discuss intelligently.
As for Lieberman, IMO it's not really power per se that drives attitudes such as his. It's either cynicism, or a type of paranoia, with power as a vehicle to achieve what they see as security. It's part and parcel of that eternal philosophical dilemma of whether the ends justify the means, and yet another sign of just how morally crippling subjection to racism is for its victims.
I don't know if I'd go as far as that nightmarish scenario you speak of, regarding Eretz Yisrael on the Moon :).
Time and time again, Jews and others make pacts with the devil, only to find themselves outgunned by that very devil they thought they controlled. The truth of the matter is, we have to admit that we cannot control evil, and we cannot use it painlessly to achieve our ends.
The following letter from Ilan Pappe is being circulated in the German internet: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D171E12.7B326B2A%40nexgo.de&oe=utf-8&output=gplain (scroll down to "Dear Jamal Karlsi").
Jamal Karsli (the correct spelling) is a Syrian-born German politician, credited solely with a scandal over an interview full of obvious antisemitic clichÃ©s and accusations (formally directed against Israel) in a publication of the German extreme right. Promoted to the favorite sidekick of a more prominent German politician of similar inclinations, Juergen Moellemann (briefly discussed in this forum: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=12017#post12017 , cf. an American site dedicated to him: http://www.moellemann.com which also gives some background on the Karsli affair), he became somewhat of a public menace or a national hero, depending on one's POV.
Does the Lieberman principle transcend the boundaries of political groups in Israel? Or it a kind of new trend? So much for right vs. left ;)
Well, the attorney for Hamas in the US is Stanley Cohen. It seems to be a fringe thing, rather than "right vs. left", - IMO due to inadequate foresight on the part of our Faustian brethren.
At the same time, there seems to be more outrage regarding Adam Shapiro, (the hapless - and admittedly misguided - Jewish human rights worker, who found himself in Arafat's compound during the Ramallah siege, having breakfast with "Ra'is") - than with Stanley Cohen. Go figure! :rolleyes:
"Everyone thinks I went to a meeting with fascists." - a follow-up article in Ha'aretz:
Leave the bombers' families in the Iraqi desert
MK Eliezer Cohen of the National Union-Yisrael Beiteinu talks about the rise of the right.
By Dalia Shehori
An update / more background (the author is quite passionate about his main Israeli characters, but he gets the "European" part of the story right):
Birds of a feather
By Thomas O'Dwyer
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