Separation Plan Set Aside

[NewsGuy]

At least one good thing appears to be emerging out of the Olmert government's humiliating failure in the second Lebanon war:

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said this week that in view of the war in Lebanon and the significant damage caused to the residents of northern Israel, his convergence plan was no longer at the top of his government's agenda.

In conversations with ministers and senior members of his Kadima party this week, Olmert said that talk at this time about the convergence plan would not be "appropriate."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/751979.html

[Olivier]

At least one good thing appears to be emerging out of the Olmert government's humiliating failure in the second Lebanon waryou bet this failure is a boon for the extreme-right propagandists of your kind


Israel destroying half of lebanon just to show the world how powerless it against hezbollah. Knowing that hezbollah is the product of his first war in Lebanon ... one wonders what this is going to produce this time. These are some ideas of mine ...

I bet israel delivered to his opponents
- a message of 'hope' and a recipe for the fight : normal states loose militarily, but religious organizations with ready-to-die fighters win.
- a message of 'unity between shia and sunni against israel has also made a bit step forward nasrallah (a shia) is now at top popularity amongst sunni arabs.

Unite you ennemies, show your weakness ... good news for the extreme right Indeed. I bet you are going to try to persuade us that when force fail, you just need more force ... so what next ? Use the nuclear bombs France gave you access to years ago to raze lebanon ?


Doh !

.. and for those who pretended the wall was a way to reach safety for israel, they probably noticed walls do not stop rockets. The only use of this wall is to grab 1000 more square kilometer of land from the west bank (and you bet construction will go on anyway).

Doh !

[NewsGuy]

Israel destroying half of lebanon just to show the world how powerless it against hezbollah. Knowing that hezbollah is the product of his first war in Lebanon ... one wonders what this is going to produce this time. These are some ideas of mine ...
I realize that for lunatic Leftists and terrorism supporters it's difficult to understand that the real message is that if missiles are shot from enemy Arab states into Israel, that state will pay a high price.

In fact, the price was not high enough in this case, but we are starting to see some interesting developments now that the Arabs are starting to understand the scope of the damage to their country.

Already Nasrallah is feeling the backlash from the Lebanese people to the extent that he said yesterday that he would not have kidnapped the Israeli soldiers had he known the extent of Israel's reaction. This shows that maybe Israel did succeed in teaching Hezbullah and other Islamic terrorists that they had better think twice before committing acts of war like Hezbullah did.

I know that Israel's successes in its war against terrorism are very disappointing to you, but that's life. And I expect that the next time Israel has to go to war, it will be with a totally revamped army and political leadership that will know much better what they are up against.

[ben Shimshon]

For those who doubt Israel's military might, ask yourself why not one neighboring country dared to challenge the IDF. Beirut is lucky to have had a weak Israeli PM to contend with. Syria knew that Damascus would have disappeared from the map had it dared to bring one aircraft out of the hangar. Those arab cowards have proven their worthlessness repeatedly for the past 60 years and they did it again this time.

[Illuminatus]

.. and for those who pretended the wall was a way to reach safety for israel, they probably noticed walls do not stop rockets. The only use of this wall is to grab 1000 more square kilometer of land from the west bank (and you bet construction will go on anyway).

Doh !
The Security Fence was never meant to be a defence against rockets (that's a whole different set of technological challenges). It was created to assist in the defence against Martyrdom Operations. Much to Olivier's obvious distress and disapointment, it's been very (very) effective in stopping or preventing mass-homicide bombings -- up to 99 percent. For that reason alone the Security Fence is 100 percent justified.

^_^

[ben Shimshon]

The Security Fence was never meant to be a defence against rockets (that's a whole different set of technological challenges). It was created to assist in the defence against Martyrdom Operations. Much to Olivier's obvious distress and disapointment, it's been very (very) effective in stopping or preventing mass-homicide bombings -- up to 99 percent. For that reason alone the Security Fence is 100 percent justified.

^_^

Absolutely correct. It was clearly ststed by Israel when the government announced the construction of the fence that it's purpose was to be as you say.
Israel has never had any interest in taking over its neighbor's land. It occupies territories which it captured in wars begun by its neighbors and lost by the same losers. Israel would dearly love to rid itself of the burdon of managing it's neighbor's land and even moreso to rid itself of the management of the miserable arabs that occupy these territories.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3296462,00.html

Commander of 401 Armored Corps Brigade, Colonel Moti Kidor: 'During war hundreds of antitank missiles fired, 18 damaged'
Hanan Greenberg

As the war continued in the north, more and more tanks were damaged. Many voices were heard in the past declaring the Merkava MK 4 model as "the safest in the world," but it turned out that many of these tanks were damaged by Hizbullah antitank missiles, causing the IDF a significant number of losses.

Colonel Moti Kidor, Commander of the 401 Armored Corps Brigade, however, says that "those who ask these questions simply don't understand the field, and unfortunately these include senior IDF officers. When you look at the full picture, one understands that during the war hundreds of antitank missiles were fired, and in total 18 tanks were damaged. Of those, missiles penetrated only five or six. To my sorrow, eight soldiers were killed in these incidents."

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/20122005/852272/JRL102_wa.jpg
Merkava tank in Lebanon (Photo: AP)

He added: "Like every tank in the past and in the future, the Merkava MK 4 is vulnerable. It's basically like asking why a chopper fell. If you strike it, it falls. I don't think there is any surprise here, and whoever is surprised simply doesn't understand. It's true that eight soldiers were killed in tanks, and that every soldier is a world in himself, but in relation to the number of missiles fired at us – it's not a lot."

In total dozens of Armored Corps soldiers were hurt and dozens of tanks hit, all from the Merkava MK 2, 3, and 4, some from tanks sent from the war reserves store unit shortly before entering in Lebanon. Among those injured were many reserves.

"Only a small number of tanks were seriously damaged, most of them have already been returned to units after the recovery," said a senior IDF officer.

"The Armored Corps played in this war, like in previous war of the State of Israel, a central role in the fighting, and absorbed many casualties. We'll have to take away lessons from this to be ready for the next war," the source added.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Israel destroying half of lebanon just to show the world how powerless it against hezbollah.What a remarkable piece of brain-dead hyperbole.

[Olivier]

I realize that for lunatic Leftists and terrorism supporters it's difficult to understand that the real message is that if missiles and shot from enemy Arab states into Israel, that state will pay a high price.

In fact, the price was not high enough in this case, but we are starting to see some interesting developments now that the Arabs are starting to understand the scope of the damage to their country.

news say they are "starting to understand" how incompetent and powerless the IDF is when aggressing the hezbollah. You can view the hezbollah as another byproduct of israel, like Hamas.

And funnily, in this affair, Nasrallah looks like the reasonable guy and the israelis like the irresponsible terrorists starting wars they cannot even win ...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/755225.html
Nasrallah also said he did not believe there would be a second round of fighting with Israel, and stated that Hezbollah would adhere to the cease-fire despite what he called Israeli provocation.


this war is only a success for the most short-sighted extremists : Hezbollah wins and israel looses nearly on everything, except getting european blue helmets in Lebanon to try to do what israel failed at.

[Illuminatus]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/755225.html
Thanks for sharing an excellent article. The weasel finally admits (and regrets) his act of stupidity and HizbAllah's (the Party of God) costly miscalculation.

[.. Hezbollah would not have abducted two Israel Defense Forces soldiers on July 12 had it known that the action would lead to war in Lebanon, the movement's secretary general Hassan Nasrallah said in an interview on Lebanon's NTV Sunday.

We did not think that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude. You ask me if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not, ..]

Sheik Hassan Nasr'Allah (the Victory of God), has finally learned a lesson.

It may have cost him a wrecked Lebanese economy, $billions lost in infrastructure, roads, schools and apprtement complexes - the killing of more than 500 Hizb'Allah fighters, the capture of 13, the destruction of hundreds of rocket launchers and the trucks that haul them -- the presence (finanlly!) of the army of the Lebanese Republic in the South..... yep, I think he finally learned a lesson.

^_^

[Bezy41]

Thanks for sharing an excellent article. The weasel finally admits (and regrets) his act of stupidity and HizbAllah's (the Party of God) costly miscalculation.

[.. Hezbollah would not have abducted two Israel Defense Forces soldiers on July 12 had it known that the action would lead to war in Lebanon, the movement's secretary general Hassan Nasrallah said in an interview on Lebanon's NTV Sunday.

We did not think that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude. You ask me if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not, ..]

Sheik Hassan Nasr'Allah (the Victory of God), has finally learned a lesson.

It may have cost him a wrecked Lebanese economy, $billions lost in infrastructure, roads, schools and apprtement complexes - the killing of more than 500 Hizb'Allah fighters, the capture of 13, the destruction of hundreds of rocket launchers and the trucks that haul them -- the presence (finanlly!) of the army of the Lebanese Republic in the South..... yep, I think he finally learned a lesson.

^_^

you're forgetting the most imporant casuality of all.....Human massacre's on a massive scale. Civilian casuality's in lebanaon as well as Israel and an Muslim-Conflict on the rise. The recent conflict brought on thousands of hezbollah supporters(even chrisitians and jewish people).

The capture of 2 IDF soldiers was not right.....but at the same time THOUSANDS palestinian/Lebanese/Syrian/Pakistani prisoners are held in israel some on "terrorism" chargers and some are just held for the hell of it. Amnesty international has called for the release of political prisoners from israel numerous times....but do they listen? no

Hezbollah captures to IDF soldiers (i hope they return in good health) and the world goes nuts....at the sametime thousands of prisoners are held in israel with no cause and just. Are they not human?

in any case...i hope the 3 IDF soldiers are returned safely to their families

[Mediocrates]

Ever been to Africa? Now there's massacres on a massive scale. Gaza in a month doesn't even measure up to Iraqis Arab on Arab murders in one day. Likewise 1100 dead in all of Lebanon in 5 weeks of intense fighting is roughly the number of political types disappeared in Egypt in the same amount of time, yet strangely the Arab world is silently pleased with this.

[danny1961]

Olmert only tactically retreated from his leftist plan of evacuation from Judea. He knows that he cannot push it through the public opinion right now. He did not reject the idea of territorial capitulation, but only temporary refrains from enforcing it. And also, read Shoher's The Green Line Madness at www.samsonblinded.org/blog

[MGB8]

Do you have any idea what these people are held for? First of all, its not thousands of lebanese, its a handfull, with blood on their hands. But, you are right, from now on, Israel should take no prisoners. Kill the terrorists where they stand. Forget arrests - just shoot them.

As for the casualties in Lebanon - tell Hez not to hide among civillians and disarm them. No attacks from Hez, no attacks back. Actions by lebanon against Hez, to cut off their supplies, etc., and then Israel doesn't have to attack infrastructure to do the same thing.

You want war, you get it. You want peace, you get it.


you're forgetting the most imporant casuality of all.....Human massacre's on a massive scale. Civilian casuality's in lebanaon as well as Israel and an Muslim-Conflict on the rise. The recent conflict brought on thousands of hezbollah supporters(even chrisitians and jewish people).

The capture of 2 IDF soldiers was not right.....but at the same time THOUSANDS palestinian/Lebanese/Syrian/Pakistani prisoners are held in israel some on "terrorism" chargers and some are just held for the hell of it. Amnesty international has called for the release of political prisoners from israel numerous times....but do they listen? no

Hezbollah captures to IDF soldiers (i hope they return in good health) and the world goes nuts....at the sametime thousands of prisoners are held in israel with no cause and just. Are they not human?

in any case...i hope the 3 IDF soldiers are returned safely to their families

[ItsMyJewty]

Dankman: Do u even realize that israel is holding +9500 (palestinian only) people in its jails right now and the soilder kidnapping was jsut a way of getting there people back. Do you not see how crazy this war was? Its not that israel is defending itself its showing its not to be F***ed with, its pretty much saying our men are worth more then yours. you must be messed up in the head or you missed alot of info, if you think wat israel did was wat was needed to be done. during the war israel distroyed all the major roads out of Lebanon then told them to get out, many ppl had no place to go. and it sayes that they gave the ppl a fair warning, ha!
its like putting a bunch of ppl in a cage, then saying im gunna throw this C4 in there i only wnt the guy in the red dead the rest get out of the way.

Put your money where your mouth is: http://www.palestinecampaign.org/donate.asp and help the "Palestinians" to buy more weapons.;)


IMJ:)

[ben Shimshon]

It is and has always been a waste of time discussing and negotiating with ALL the arabs. They enter into negotiations with dishonourable intentions which can only result in failure to meet their obligations regardless of any agreement.
It is the same here on the forum, they argue with a blindfold, preaching the same support for terrorism against Israel regardless of origin or reason.
Peace on paper is of no value, just look at the way Egypt harbors and promotes terrorisism and spews anti-Israeli rhetoric. Is this the tone of a neighbor in peace.

[DareDevil]

It is and has always been a waste of time discussing and negotiating with ALL the arabs. They enter into negotiations with dishonourable intentions which can only result in failure to meet their obligations regardless of any agreement.
It is the same here on the forum, they argue with a blindfold, preaching the same support for terrorism against Israel regardless of origin or reason.
Peace on paper is of no value, just look at the way Egypt harbors and promotes terrorisism and spews anti-Israeli rhetoric. Is this the tone of a neighbor in peace.

what kind of peace are you looking for ?

I want peace.

I don't want blood shed.

Ohh yes without Jerusalem, no peace from my point of view.

[KettleWhistle]

Ohh yes without Jerusalem, no peace from my point of view.
Then no peace. Our capital is not for sale and not for giveaway.

[DareDevil]

Then no peace. Our capital is not for sale and not for giveaway.

I agree no peace.

your grand father gave it up, but mine did not, and i will not, and i will teach my children not to give up.

[KettleWhistle]

I agree no peace.

your grand father gave it up, but mine did not, and i will not, and i will teach my children not to give up.

My grandfather gave up nothing. Nor will I. Nor will my children.

[DareDevil]

My grandfather gave up nothing. Nor will I. Nor will my children.

Where is the temple then if he did not.

[DareDevil]

My grandfather gave up nothing. Nor will I. Nor will my children.

Masada is a very nice story, and i believe it to.

killing themself what a story, by the way i am against a person to kill himself.

[Mediocrates]

do you have an actual point?

[DareDevil]

do you have an actual point?

juresulam is the point?

we (Muslims and Jews) are fighting over juresulam, nothing else. if those who are seeking peace focus thier efforts over Juresulam, we might reach a good peace between the nations not the leaders.

[Bible Man]

At least one good thing appears to be emerging out of the Olmert government's humiliating failure in the second Lebanon war:

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said this week that in view of the war in Lebanon and the significant damage caused to the residents of northern Israel, his convergence plan was no longer at the top of his government's agenda.

In conversations with ministers and senior members of his Kadima party this week, Olmert said that talk at this time about the convergence plan would not be "appropriate."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/751979.html

What government? Does he even have a government? What is he going to converge? Does he have anything left, worth converging; except the peace now brigade or Hamas and Hizbullah!!

[ben Shimshon]

No peace with thugs and terrorist organizations. Jerusalem is not for sale to a party with nothing to offer but threats and terrorism. Take a hike you roaches and return to your filthy caves.

[ben Shimshon]

For an Aussie you should know better.

Know better than what ?

[ben Shimshon]

Arab Cowards :rolleyes: ..that’s a bit rich coming from a Jew ( I'm guessing you are)...give them 1/10 of the fire power Israel has (wich was provided by the west) then start talking tuff, or even just one nuke to level the playing field. If you wish to talk tuff and flex your muscle that’s fine but don’t forget get how you there and certainly don’t call Arabs cowards.

Yes , arabs have always proven to be cowards in every war fought, whether between yourselves or against Israel. Israel fights with purely military might unlike cowardly arabs who hide and fight from within civilian populations to give them cover.

[ben Shimshon]

Yourselves..not arab

And you totally ignored what I said or you just didn't understand what I said. Either way you are still very wrong.. Read what wrote again.

You obviously understand nothing about warfare. Do you think Israel would be so stupid as to give their enemy any fire power, of course not. It is a well known fact that to win a war decisively requires 10 x the power of the enemy to do so. This is why Israel always wins and will always do so.

[ben Shimshon]

I agree with the first two words of your post "Absolute rubbish”. Instead actually debating or discussing, you resort to ignorant and racists rants. One can only assume out of anger, frustration or plain old stupidity.

Speaking of stupidity, that email pop is still occurring, I did what you told me..:confused:


Nothing racist about my statements, obviously the truth is killing you. It must be the embarrasement of being an arab that brings out the stupidity in your statements.
In anycase I have better things to do than argue with a roach.....crawl back under that rock in the cave

[DareDevil]

Nothing racist about my statements, obviously the truth is killing you. It must be the embarrasement of being an arab that brings out the stupidity in your statements.
In anycase I have better things to do than argue with a roach.....crawl back under that rock in the cave

HI,

r u ok.

you want to kill him, is this your hobby to kill arab and muslims, really, this is what you want, if yes i guess you should be in jail.

and trust me, your power is nothing. you are so weak, the roach and the weak who hide behind walls.

[Mediocrates]

but lets face facts, no USA or UK..Israel wouldn’t be here and you bloody well know it.


Iarael is the world's 4th largest exporter or military tech. It has mandatory national service. Compared to the arab states it spends a fraction to total defense budgets. The IDF stresses modern techniques, training and organization. Essentially 100% of all military gear in every arab state comes from Europe, Russia or China.

Indeed those are facts. Please continue.

[Mediocrates]

You obviously lack the basic skills to comprehend what I said. I never said for Israel to give them the fire power. The argument here is if Arabs are cowards and the answer is no. Israel only talks (including yourself) and acts tough because of the weapons it gets from the USA..So my point is your not strong, it’s the USA who made you strong, Israel only exists because of them. (Even your government can admit to that)




The defence budget of Israel is about 9 billion USD/year. If that approx 1.7 billion comes in the form of US aid which is then spent in the US. Moreover about a third or about 600 million flows the other direction in terms of Israeli military tech that is purchased outright by the US for its own use. In the Arab world 100% of their total armaments comes from outside the home country. And for all it's noisemaking, Iran's indigenous output is estimated to be something like 10% of their total defence budget. This leaves 90% purchased, on credit, from the rest of the world.

Please continue.

[DareDevil]

The defence budget of Israel is about 9 billion USD/year. If that approx 1.7 billion comes in the form of US aid which is then spent in the US. Moreover about a third or about 600 million flows the other direction in terms of Israeli military tech that is purchased outright by the US for its own use. In the Arab world 100% of their total armaments comes from outside the home country. And for all it's noisemaking, Iran's indigenous output is estimated to be something like 10% of their total defence budget. This leaves 90% purchased, on credit, from the rest of the world.

Please continue.
Dear Mediocrates, I understand your asking Comedian to continue, so if will ignore me i will understand.

Mediocrates, my answer "so what?" no disrespect, but as a question "so what",

and this weapon is used against what?! "killing" or "showing power" (and I mean from both sides)

if it's for killing, what shameful purpose?!

and if it's for showing power?

Never weapons through history is a sign of power, example King David.

[Mediocrates]

It's a myth, oft repeated, that Israel would not exist were it not for the US, UK, etc etc etc. A) the numbers they quote aren't true B) they ignore the abject failure of arab militaries C) the arabs are bolstered almost 100% by their own alllies. Do we imagine that Egypt wouldn't exist w/o American tanks or that Saudi Arabia would not exist if they lost all their US AWACS? No of course not.

[DareDevil]

It's a myth, oft repeated, that Israel would not exist were it not for the US, UK, etc etc etc. A) the numbers they quote aren't true B) they ignore the abject failure of arab militaries C) the arabs are bolstered almost 100% by their own alllies. Do we imagine that Egypt wouldn't exist w/o American tanks or that Saudi Arabia would not exist if they lost all their US AWACS? No of course not.

from what i read to comedian, i undertand that you are so conected to USA and never felt that you (Jewish people) are living with us here in the Arab world and between us a very nasty and dirty war.

Again, wether your country, or Saudi Arabia even USA, would not exit only becuase God want to. this is my point, not weapons and killing.

[Bible Man]

With regards to King David, he sought guidance, direction and help from the Lord, and led by inspiration acted upon it, and using the weapons at his disposal overcame the Amalakites! ISamual ch 30.
Israel has the same right, that David had, after provocation from hostile Arab enemies.
Saudi Arabia finances despot arab states in order to destroy Israel, their finance comes from the oil that they sell to the U.S., that they so hate.

[DareDevil]

With regards to King David, he sought guidance, direction and help from the Lord, and led by inspiration acted upon it, and using the weapons at his disposal overcame the Amalakites! ISamual ch 30.
Israel has the same right, that David had, after provocation from hostile Arab enemies.
Saudi Arabia finances despot arab states in order to destroy Israel, their finance comes from the oil that they sell to the U.S., that they so hate.

Yes I agree but he was so weak before he becomes king, and not the weapons that made him king, what made him king is maybe his faith..... So on.

without Saudi Arabia USA could not get rid of ex-USSR, without Saudi Arabia Germany would not get united, and not all what you read is true, and if it is true then Saudi Arabia is USA first enemy, second, Saudi Arabia has offered peace, and Israel rejected it, say whatever about how evil Islam is or Saudi Arabia system is, still the Fact that big countries has offered peace.

You will say democracy is the best way to achieve peace, I do not agree, not because I do not like the idea, because now is possible to make peace with them and I am more than sure they are able to make it and make every body to shut up, trust me Saudi Arabia is the best ally for Israel in the region.

In my country I live in a far better condition than Saudi Arabia, and I do not want my life to be like Saudi’s one.

In Gaza they tried democracy what was the result, USA made war against Iraq and we were USA allies in that war, what is the result??? Is there peace there, did Israel make a peace treaty with Iraq, and by the way USA say that Iraq is a democratic country.

[MGB8]

Arab Cowards :rolleyes: ..that’s a bit rich coming from a Jew ( I'm guessing you are)...give them 1/10 of the fire power Israel has (wich was provided by the west) then start talking tuff, or even just one nuke to level the playing field. If you wish to talk tuff and flex your muscle that’s fine but don’t forget get how you there and certainly don’t call Arabs cowards.

Hmm... given that Israel went into Jenin and much of south lebanon with foot soldiers, while Hez and the Pal Arab terrorists use their own women and children as cover to fire at Israel... meanwhile we also have the sneak attack on Yom Kippur in 1973...

Yup, Arab coward fits perfectly.

[MGB8]

I know you’re a Jew and its understandable that you defend your country and speak highly of it but lets face facts, no USA or UK..Israel wouldn’t be here and you bloody well know it.


Hmmm... Israel got its weapons in 47-48 from the Czech's, while the Arab world had British weaponry and released Nazi officers. Israel later upgraded to French weaponry, with some US, while the Arabs had soviet weaponry, with some US weapons (the US always more or less balanced weapons sales between Israel and the cumulative Arab world.)

During the Yom Kippur War, Israel finally had some decent American (upgraded by Israel, of course) weaponry, but the Arab Soviet weaponry, at the time, was more than a match.

Israel developed its own tank, upgrades its Jets massively, developed its own drone, and developed its own nukes and the Jericho missles to carry them, as well as the Arrow missle defense and several other systems. What has the Arab world developed, again?

Oh, and can you tell us exactly how many weapons the US has sold Jordan, S.A., Kuwait, and Egypt over the past decade? Or Russia and France to Iran, Iraq and Syria?

[DareDevil]

Hmm... given that Israel went into Jenin and much of south lebanon with foot soldiers, while Hez and the Pal Arab terrorists use their own women and children as cover to fire at Israel... meanwhile we also have the sneak attack on Yom Kippur in 1973...

Yup, Arab coward fits perfectly.

:) it is very easy to say such a thing if you are used to use such language, maybe the environment that you were raised in teach you such language.

Listen, i know as an Arab what I am, thank God, still is such language will help anything?

We are suffering sooooo much, bin ladin, killing them self, "using women and children" as you say, words like you, nuclear weapons every where,
But what you are saying and describing my people as terrorists, coward.... etc ... is it helping anything, come on, what are you seeking???

There are good Muslim people among us; those terrorists as you are describing are killing here from us "Muslims" more than any victims around the world? and by the way this strategy that Hamas are using "blow themselves" this is what made Saudi Arabia, offer peace, Islam as the majority in the world are seeing is under attack, not from any External threat only (i mean USA, Israel, the whole west..... etc), Islam is under attack from those who are killing themselves and everybody around them, and i mean internal.

So please do not use Osama's way of thinking and methods, against us. I mean do not hate all Muslims and Arabs.

Thanks

[Bible Man]

Regarding peace, the Bible states 'How can two walk together, unless they both be agreed'. What agreement has God, with the devil?
Both Ishmael and Esau were wild and untameable men and their hand would be against every man.

It's true, the Arabs can't live in peace with themselves, let alone with the Jews! Ishmael wasn't offered on the alter, Ibrahim made, as the Koran wrongly states! It was Isaac and today it's the poor Jews that are internationally being offered up as a 'scape goat'. Western nations bowing and scraping at the feet of Arab murderers!!
What peace?? What fellowship has righteousness with unrightousness??
Wake up people around the world, God said that all the cursed Abraham and his seed, would be cursed. Equally, all that blessed Abraham and his seed would be blessed.

It seems to me that you Arabs, ought to be blessing Israel!!

[MGB8]

I apologize. It was in response to another post, out of anger. That said, there are certainly those that use cowardly tactics - firing from civilian buildings and from behind kids throwing stones (using them as cover), even suicide bombing, where the cowardice is the fear of facing an armed man, and, of course, we have not forgotten the Yom Kippur War.

That said, there are many brave Arabs, and Jew and Arab are cousins, and this war is for the most part stupid and pointless. Nonetheless, it goes on.



:) it is very easy to say such a thing if you are used to use such language, maybe the environment that you were raised in teach you such language.

Listen, i know as an Arab what I am, thank God, still is such language will help anything?

We are suffering sooooo much, bin ladin, killing them self, "using women and children" as you say, words like you, nuclear weapons every where,
But what you are saying and describing my people as terrorists, coward.... etc ... is it helping anything, come on, what are you seeking???

There are good Muslim people among us; those terrorists as you are describing are killing here from us "Muslims" more than any victims around the world? and by the way this strategy that Hamas are using "blow themselves" this is what made Saudi Arabia, offer peace, Islam as the majority in the world are seeing is under attack, not from any External threat only (i mean USA, Israel, the whole west..... etc), Islam is under attack from those who are killing themselves and everybody around them, and i mean internal.

So please do not use Osama's way of thinking and methods, against us. I mean do not hate all Muslims and Arabs.

Thanks

[ben Shimshon]

Thanks guys, you vindicate everything I have said, cowardice and stupidity are without doubt the mainstay of arab mentality. Political correctness is a waste of time in open discussions, call a spade a spade and get down and dirty to resolve the differences.

[ben Shimshon]

Quick question.. what is your age?

noone is upset with you and noone gives a damn about you, my age is not your damn business.

[Mediocrates]

Once again missing the point. A bunch of rag tag Hezbollah fighters with low tech weapons made a mocker of the IDF ground force.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/kornet/
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl04-e.htm
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002582.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-5
http://www.answers.com/topic/fajr-3-rocket


NOT low-tech NOT low-tech NOT low-tech NOT low-tech

[nbarzelay]

It's a myth, oft repeated, that Israel would not exist were it not for the US, UK, etc etc etc. A) the numbers they quote aren't true B) they ignore the abject failure of arab militaries C) the arabs are bolstered almost 100% by their own alllies. Do we imagine that Egypt wouldn't exist w/o American tanks or that Saudi Arabia would not exist if they lost all their US AWACS? No of course not.

Also a nice question would be if the US and the UK didn't purchase the petroleum goods from the ME, where would this MEern nations be?

Unfortunately, if it weren't for Israel bombing the Iraqi (French-made) nuclear reactor in Osirak in 1981, the Saudis wouldn't have been given the US AWACS. Israel flew over part of the Saudi border to get to this nuclear reactor, which was a dire obligation of Israel to destroy. Prior to this, the US did not see justification for the Saudis to have AWACS.

I still think the separation should be implemented but not unilaterally and definitely nothing more than 93% of the West bank and the (now non-applicable) 1967 green line. Let Jordan give some of it's prized land since they sit on over 70% of the original 1947 British mandate.

[DareDevil]

Regarding peace, the Bible states 'How can two walk together, unless they both be agreed'. What agreement has God, with the devil?
Both Ishmael and Esau were wild and untameable men and their hand would be against every man.

It's true, the Arabs can't live in peace with themselves, let alone with the Jews! Ishmael wasn't offered on the alter, Ibrahim made, as the Koran wrongly states! It was Isaac and today it's the poor Jews that are internationally being offered up as a 'scape goat'. Western nations bowing and scraping at the feet of Arab murderers!!
What peace?? What fellowship has righteousness with unrightousness??
Wake up people around the world, God said that all the cursed Abraham and his seed, would be cursed. Equally, all that blessed Abraham and his seed would be blessed.

It seems to me that you Arabs ought to be blessing Israel!!

There is an Arab saying "treat others as you want, to be treated"

So I am little bit confused how to treat you, Arabs are not only Muslims, there is Jews, and Christians,

And you are a bible man.... Hmmm is this what I read is coming from a true Christian, or a Nazi Christian, or maybe KKK

[DareDevil]

I apologize. It was in response to another post, out of anger. That said, there are certainly those that use cowardly tactics - firing from civilian buildings and from behind kids throwing stones (using them as cover), even suicide bombing, where the cowardice is the fear of facing an armed man, and, of course, we have not forgotten the Yom Kippur War.

That said, there are many brave Arabs, and Jew and Arab are cousins, and this war is for the most part stupid and pointless. Nonetheless, it goes on.

Wow I respect that and I think you are a brave man, to apologize, as an Arab I can see bravery from your side.

I said nothing to apologize for, and you also said nothing makes you apologize, still you are a brave man, because you have the “WELL”.

Thanks a lot.

[KettleWhistle]

There is an Arab saying "treat others as you want, to be treated"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there is also one that says "do as I say, not as I do?"

[DareDevil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there is also one that says "do as I say, not as I do?"

i do not know who said that ?!

[danny1961]

"pretty much saying our men are worth more then yours"

absolutely. why is that so hard to say it? we the Israelis values us the Jews more than we value them the Palestinians. and read Shoher (www.samsonblinded.org/blog) after saying that

[Bible Man]

There is an Arab saying "treat others as you want, to be treated"

So I am little bit confused how to treat you, Arabs are not only Muslims, there is Jews, and Christians,

And you are a bible man.... Hmmm is this what I read is coming from a true Christian, or a Nazi Christian, or maybe KKK

Well, first thing friend, you didn't answer my question concerning Isaac and your forebear Ishmael, then, Christians and Jews understand very well the so called tolerance by the Arab World, and their barbaric atrocities towards other faiths!
I would agree with you though, there are also Arab Christans, and it is a well known fact that they are victimised, murdered and threatened, and forced out of their communities and punished for not joining in so called 'heroic acts' by terrorist groups both in Lebanon, and also in Israel.
And now the Druse are a dwindling community.

The Christian and Jewish faiths, have a respect and a Biblical dignity for a human life and sense of honour in battle, and their children are not brought up to become suicide bombers, nor would their parents use them as human shields in war!

Finally, we all know that the sixth pillar of Islam is to make Jihad! I repeat, in my previous comment, Esau, his hand would be against his fellow man, Ishmael the same, untameable!

To answer your question, I am a Christian who knows my Bible, and every true Christian will love the Jewish people- get that straight!!

[DareDevil]

Well, first thing friend, you didn't answer my question concerning Isaac and your forebear Ishmael, then, Christians and Jews understand very well the so called tolerance by the Arab World, and their barbaric atrocities towards other faiths!
I would agree with you though, there are also Arab Christans, and it is a well known fact that they are victimised, murdered and threatened, and forced out of their communities and punished for not joining in so called 'heroic acts' by terrorist groups both in Lebanon, and also in Israel.
And now the Druse are a dwindling community.

The Christian and Jewish faiths, have a respect and a Biblical dignity for a human life and sense of honour in battle, and their children are not brought up to become suicide bombers, nor would their parents use them as human shields in war!

Finally, we all know that the sixth pillar of Islam is to make Jihad! I repeat, in my previous comment, Esau, his hand would be against his fellow man, Ishmael the same, untameable!

To answer your question, I am a Christian who knows my Bible, and every true Christian will love the Jewish people- get that straight!!


we have five pillars not six, get that straight

also You are not a Muslim to discuss my religion with you.

I am not a Christian and I thought that the main Goal of Christianity is to spread love and peace.

So I wonder what kind of Christians are you?

[ben Shimshon]

"The Christian and Jewish faiths, have a respect and a Biblical dignity for a human life and sense of honour in battle, and their children are not brought up to become suicide bombers, nor would their parents use them as human shields in war! "

[Deleted by Admin]

[DareDevil]

no i deleted all, thank you NewsGuy

[NewsGuy]

ben Shimshon:

Stuff like this "What is there to discuss when dealing with a bunch of muslim savages ? The only solution is to capture or preferable kill them." is a violation of forum policy because it is racist and religious bashing.

This is not what we are all about. People of all religions are welcome here and should not be subjected to hate speech.

Consider this a warning.

[ben Shimshon]

ben Shimshon:

Stuff like this "What is there to discuss when dealing with a bunch of muslim savages ? The only solution is to capture or preferable kill them." is a violation of forum policy because it is racist and religious bashing.

This is not what we are all about. People of all religions are welcome here and should not be subjected to hate speech.

Consider this a warning.

There is no implication in my statement that all muslims are savages, therefore this is neither a religious nor racist statement. At least now I know what you are about.

[NewsGuy]

Moving the thread back on track -

Many analysts are now asking what Kadima (and Olmert) will set as their platform. It has been said that Kadima's future is already behind it...

Unfortunately, the current government was elected because of their promise to expel more Jews from Judea and Samaria, but now the situation is very different.

First, the Gaza war and he Lebanon war proved that land that is given to the Arabs is not seen as an opening for peace, but as a reward for terrorism. For that reason, the land is immediately used to fire rockets into Israeli population centers inside the Green Line. This was the case in Lebanon and in Gaza. So the land-for-peace myth is finally shattered in an undeniable way.

Second, we can recall that the official lie used by Olmert and the Leftists to justify the forced expulsion of Jews was that there is a need to build up a Jewish demographic majority in the smaller, chopped-up Israel. Well, we can see that there is no attempt even to uphold that lie any longer. It's becoming clear that what is really needed is to build an army that has the ability to destroy the terrorists -- not expel more Jewish families.

[DareDevil]

nothing, simply nothing

[NewsGuy]

Daredevil, why did you delete your response? I just now have the chance to respond. Sorry for the delay.

If I remember correctly, you actually brought up 2 interesting issues.

The first was that giving land to the Arabs will not bring peace nor security for Israel. I agree and wanted to pick up on a related point that you also mentioned, which is that Israelis seem to be focusing on security, not peace. The second issue you mentioned is that the Saudi plan was good and that it was a mistake not to accept it.

Let's take the first issue - Up until recently, people like me viewed the Arab-Israeli conflict simply as a land dispute. This perception is very much ingrained in Israeli society, so one solution is to give the land in dispute, hoping that the dispute will then go away. (I personally disagree with this approach.)

The goal of the Israeli government is "peace," but in reality, most Israelis who are not Leftists understand very well that the best available outcome will not actually be peace, but a cessation of hostilities what will provide Israelis with security.

The Leftist theory of trying to give away land to the Arabs, after decades of internal debate, has now proven to be a complete failure in Gaza and Lebanon, as are most of the Leftist ideas. In the ideal world, negotiations would lead to peace, but in the primitive Middle East, there can be no civilized solutions so long as the radical Islamists are allowed to operate. And that brings me to why I no longer believe that the Arab-Israeli conflict is a land dispute.

Just as important as land, is the cultural and religious war that the extremist Islamists and other terrorists have created. It is not about land -- it is about the global Jihad to mass-murder non-Muslims (and even some fellow Muslims who are not as radical). That's why giving land to the Arabs is such a big mistake, as we have seen in Gaza and Lebanon, as well as in every other city in the West Bank that is ruled by the Palestinians. It is unfortunate, but true.

As for the Saudi peace plan, it is not all that different than other land-for-peace plans, but it is a lot less practical than other plans. Israel cannot go back to the '67 borders exactly, even though the current Leftist government is talking about doing so approximately. The facts on the ground have changed, and while Israel can brutally remove a few thousand families like in Gush Katif and turn 10,000 of them into refugees, the country cannot absorb hundreds-of-thousands of refugees. Even the 10,000 they expelled already have been living in refugee camps and Israel has not been able to relocate them into permanent homes as promised. So, the Saudi plan will not work.

The real solution is to move most if not all Palestinians into Jordan and maybe even Saudi Arabia. If the Saudis really want to help, let them open their own country to the Palestinians, and the same goes for the rest of the Muslim countries.

[DareDevil]

I deleted most of my post, to show respect to the Jewish people, what I have wrote is not for Ordinary people to read, also I do not want any more attacks on Quran, Mohammad, Islam and me.

I am so sorry to all who read what I wrote, I did not write something bad, but as I said it is not for ordinary people to read.

About why I deleted the post (#61), because I felt no use,also everybody does not want a solution, they think like or almost like you.

You said:

“The real solution is to move most if not all Palestinians into Jordan and maybe even Saudi Arabia. If the Saudis really want to help, let them open their own country to the Palestinians, and the same goes for the rest of the Muslim countries.”

NewsGuy, please do not think that Mohammad wrote this, because he can not read and write, and be careful because I believe it’s God words, and it’s a warning from God to the Jewish people, please do not attack Mohammad, Islam, or me, this is from Quran, you have the option to accept it or reject it, and in both case I will respect that, and I hope you respect our book (Quran) .

What you will read on the internet is a translation of Quran to english, not Quran itself, because the original Quran or God words itself are in Arabic, I do not know why, but I think it's his well and we must respect it.

Read it all when you are free to read, if you are interested to know your enemy.

You will be amazed how a man (Mohammad) can not read and write could say or write this, and we Muslims believe it’s from God.

please find any Quran on the Internet, and read Al-baqaraa or the Cow, please read it, it is better

[ben Shimshon]

excuse me while I throw up.

[nbarzelay]

I find it hilarious that a Muslim is calling Jewish (Extremists) more violent than Muslims themselves. Just wondering how many Jewish Extremists killed non-Jews lately. Do Jews view the after-life as being greater than life itself? No, little man.

That's why Islam should be reformed instead of playing this little 'religion of peace' game since it obviously isn't working anymore.

Also, when talking about Jews in the Quran, how about you use quotes other than from surah 2, you know, the ones that vilify Jews and contradicts itself, as it does to many situations.

[KettleWhistle]

I find it hilarious that a Muslim is calling Jewish (Extremists) more violent than Muslims themselves. Just wondering how many Jewish Extremists killed non-Jews lately.
I recently realized that what constitutes a Jewish extremist is quite subjective.

[NewsGuy]

I deleted most of my post, to show respect to the Jewish people, what I have wrote is not for Ordinary people to read, also I do not want any more attacks on Quran, Mohammad, Islam and me.

I am so sorry to all who read what I wrote, I did not write something bad, but as I said it is not for ordinary people to read.

About why I deleted the post (#61), because I felt no use,also everybody does not want a solution, they think like or almost like you.

You said:

“The real solution is to move most if not all Palestinians into Jordan and maybe even Saudi Arabia. If the Saudis really want to help, let them open their own country to the Palestinians, and the same goes for the rest of the Muslim countries.”

NewsGuy, please do not think that Mohammad wrote this, because he can not read and write, and be careful because I believe it’s God words, and it’s a warning from God to the Jewish people, please do not attack Mohammad, Islam, or me, this is from Quran, you have the option to accept it or reject it, and in both case I will respect that, and I hope you respect our book (Quran) .

What you will read on the internet is a translation of Quran to english, not Quran itself, because the original Quran or God words itself are in Arabic, I do not know why, but I think it's his well and we must respect it.

Read it all when you are free to read, if you are interested to know your enemy.

You will be amazed how a man (Mohammad) can not read and write could say or write this, and we Muslims believe it’s from God.

please find any Quran on the Internet, and read Al-baqaraa or the Cow, please read it, it is better

I think that you originally wrote that the problem is Jewish extremists and that given the chance, Jews would kill everyone, or something like that... So now you're asking that no one respond offensively to you, the Quran or Muhammad.

In reality, what many Muslims refer to as Jewish "extremists" are Jewish families who believe that they have the right to live in the Jewish homeland. The Jewish residents of Israel have no resemblance to Muslim extremists who are convinced that they need to mass-murder Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc., in some global Jihad war.

I don't mean any offense to the topics that are holy to you, but I would say that what amazes me is not that Muhammad was illiterate as you wrote.

Instead, what amazes me is that more than a billion Muslims tolerate terrorism as no other members of any religion would. In any other religion, suicide bombers and child-killers would be marginalized, not admired. This makes me wonder about the Muslim community and about the chances of peaceful coexistence in Israel or anywhere else in the world.

[nbarzelay]

I recently realized that what constitutes a Jewish extremist is quite subjective.

I guess everything is subjective to a certain degree. Objectivity is just a word for most people and is not applicable to most situations due to a person's judgements, notions, and feelings towards any subject regardless on the level of knowledge he/she has about it.

I personally know one of the leaders in the Jewish plot to blow up the Al-Aqsa mosque back in the 60's. That would constitute as an extremist, but yet again, he's served his time in prison for it and is now a law-abiding Israeli citizen, not that he wasn't before.