Israel's Divine Right To The Land

[Abraham]

WE HAVE A CONFRONTATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST SIMPLY BECAUSE THE JEWS ARE IN ISRAEL AND THE ARABS NEIGHBORS DON'T WANT THIS JEWISH PRESENCE THERE. THAT'S WHY THEY WENT TO WAR AGAINST ISRAEL. THEY DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF A SOLUTION FOR THE BENEFIT OF THEIR FELLOW MOSLEMS IN ISRAEL, THEY WOULD RATHER USE THE PALESTINIAN CONFLICT AGAINST ISRAEL.

THE FACT REMAINS: G-D GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS AND THE TORAH (BIBLE) IS THE DEED OF OWNERSHIP. IT AMAZES ME THAT SO MANY "SO CALLED BELIEVERS IN THE BIBLE" FORGET THIS DEFENSE. THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT WE WILL SOUND LIKE THE FANATIC RELIGIOUS MOSLEMS. NEVERTHELESS, IN THE END THE WORLD WILL RECOGNIZE THIS FACT. IF IT IS TRUE THEN WHO'S JOB IS IT TO PROCLAIM IT? WAITING FOR THE MOSHIACH (MESSIAH) IS NOT ENOUGH, WE HAVE TO BE A LIGHT TO THE NATIONS, AND THE NATIONS NEED TO HEAR FROM US THAT THE LAND OF ISRAEL WAS GIVEN TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE BY G-D. THIS IS THE CORRECT STEP IN THE DIRECTION OF PEACE. ARABS OR ANYONE ELSE MAY LIVE IN ISRAEL PEACEFULLY, SO LONG AS THEY ABIDE BY THE LAW. LET THEM STAY IF THEY DENOUNCE TERRORISM AND STATE THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO LIVE PEACEFULLY.

ANYONE WHO DOES NOT ACCEPT THIS AND REFUSES TO LIVE PEACEFULLY WITHIN ISRAEL'S BOARDERS NEEDS TO VACATE OR BE VACATED.

SINCERELY,
ABRAHAM
__________

[Layton]

G-D GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS AND THE TORAH (BIBLE) IS THE DEED OF OWNERSHIP. IT AMAZES ME THAT SO MANY "SO CALLED BELIEVERS IN THE BIBLE" FORGET THIS DEFENSE. THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT WE WILL SOUND LIKE THE FANATIC RELIGIOUS MOSLEMS

Guess what.. it does make you sound like a religious extremist. Claiming lands because a divine creature of some sort gave it to you is religion at its worst.

Hmm.. now that i think of it.. maybe its time i start my own religion. I could use a private continent.

Oh and this G-D of yours that gave Israel to the Jews.. which one is it? There are over 2000 deities in the world, better make sure to pick the right one or its going to be an eternity of red guys sticking pitchforks in your behind.

[elke]

Originally posted by Layton
better make sure to pick the right one or its going to be an eternity of red guys sticking pitchforks in your behind.

Anything constructive to say? Guess what, the quote above makes you sound like an extremist too.

[Vic]

Hmm... Are "Abraham" and "Layton" one and the same person or working hand in hand to wreck this forum? An old hat. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Dear forum administration, please delete this garbage. As for the rest of us here - the best thing is not to react.

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic
Hmm... Are "Abraham" and "Layton" one and the same person or working hand in hand to wreck this forum? An old hat. :mad:

Dear forum administration, please delete this garbage. As for the rest of us here - the best thing is not to react.

Yes, Father! ;)

You are right though: just a knee-jerk reaction, sorry! :(

[Layton]

Yes, well.. i dont come here alot. First post i read was this one and i really, really do not like it when people try to use religion to justify or do certain things in the name of their God.

Maybe i was a bit harsh.. so be it. Let an admin delete this thread if it isnt suited for this forum and be done with it.

[Abraham]

And this G-D of yours that gave Israel to the Jews.. which one is it? There are over 2000 deities in the world, better make sure to pick the right one or its going to be an eternity of red guys sticking pitchforks in your behind. [/B][/QUOTE]

MY REMARK WAS PRIMARILY GEARED TO THOSE WHO ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS G-D GIVEN.
THE BIBLE SPEAKS OFTEN OF JERUSALEM OR ISRAEL BELONGING TO THE HEBREWS.
THE KORAN DOES NOT MENTION IT AT ALL OR ACCORDING TO SOME eludes ONE TIME REGARDING THE LAND.

ALTHOUGH THE BIBLE IS OUR DEED, THE JEWISH NATIONAL FUND PURCHASED MANY PARTS OF THE LAND. ALSO THE UN GAVE ISRAEL TO THE JEWS IN 1948. AND SO TOO DID ISRAEL WIN 3 WARS AFTER BEING ATTACKED BY THEIR FRIENDLY ARAB NEIGHBORS.

AS TO WHICH G-D IS IT THAT GAVE ISRAEL TO THE JEWS, THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS. "THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH". SEE THE FIRST VERSE OF THE BIBLE"

ABRAHAM
_______

[pouzzler]

This thread is entirely made by pro-anti-Israelianism acting as agents provocateurs, right?
Right? I'm not mad, please?

[elke]

Originally posted by pouzzler
This thread is entirely made by pro-anti-Israelianism acting as agents provocateurs, right?
Right? I'm not mad, please?

No, you are not mad IMO. Let's ignore it, shall we? :)

[Abraham]

Originally posted by Layton
....i really, really do not like it when people try to use religion to justify or do certain things in the name of their God.


SO IF I HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT ABORTION OR ISRAEL YOU DON'T LIKE THAT I USE A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT LIKE THE BIBLE AS AN AUTHORITY THAT I ALSO CLAIM TO BE OF DIVINE ORIGIN.

I DON'T MIND THAT YOU HAVE YOUR OPINION, BUT I DO MIND THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SILENCE ME BECAUSE I TAKE AN OPINION THAT FITS WITH THE BIBLE.

I CONSIDER YOU NARROW MINDED. PERHAPS IT HAS TO DO WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS TEACHING OR UPBRINGING?
YOU SEE JUDAISM DOESN'T TEACH THAT YOU GO TO HELL IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE LIKE ME. WE BELIEVE THAT WE ARE JUDGED ACCORDING TO OUR DEEDS.

[Layton]

SO IF I HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT ABORTION OR ISRAEL YOU DON'T LIKE THAT I USE A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT LIKE THE BIBLE AS AN AUTHORITY THAT I ALSO CLAIM TO BE OF DIVINE ORIGIN. I DON'T MIND THAT YOU HAVE YOUR OPINION, BUT I DO MIND THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SILENCE ME BECAUSE I TAKE AN OPINION THAT FITS WITH THE BIBLE.


Dude.. please.. i couldnt care less what you do in your own free time for the God(s) you worship. But i stop not caring if you go out and seize other peoples land in the name of your God (which you claim to do..)

Believe what you want, but dont let other people bare the consequences of your religion. How would you like it if you were dragged on top of a temple and sacrificed to make the sun go up or something? Ok, thats a bit weird example but i hope i made my point..

Oh and i was wondering.. is this really what the normal Israeli citizens thinks? That Israel was a land given to them by their G-D? Please tell me this isnt true..

[danholo]

Layton,

You're knowledge of Judaism is puny. Jews believe in a one all-powerful force: God. Not Gods, this is antithetical to Judaism.
There is no other divine presence in the universe but God in Judaism. God does not have a name, God shall be what he wishes to be as he tells Moses, when Moses asks for his name. God's "name" is most often written by the hebrew letters : Yud, Hei, Vav, Hei. The name is pronounced "adonai" or "Lord".
Satan, hell, eternal damnation etc. are all Christian inventions.


Abraham,

TURN THE CAPS LOCK OFF!

I understand that you believe in Torah and God and that the Holy Land is the only place us Jews can achieve our mission, but in this kind of debate there are the non-religious, who use only rationale, not beliefs, in their arguments.
Using Torah for this debate will just make people laugh.

I'm also starting to believe in Torah and I'm understanding Judaism even more and the "holiness" of it. Prophecies in the Torah are amazingly accurate, like in the end of Vayikra where we are warned not to stray from God's law.
BTW, by Halacha, do also non-Jews in the Holy Land have to abide by Jewish law? I thought that only Noahide laws go for them.

[Layton]

You're knowledge of Judaism is puny. Jews believe in a one all-powerful force: God. Not Gods, this is antithetical to Judaism.

I know that. I added the (s) to include the polytheistic religions. I was talking about religion in general, not just Judaism alone.

Satan, hell, eternal damnation etc. are all Christian inventions.

Well thats a plus then. Good for you :p

[Micah]

Certain laws even non-Jews have to obey in Israel, such as the prohibition against idolatry. They also aren't allowed to work on Shabbat.

[Abraham]

Originally posted by Layton

........
Oh and i was wondering.. is this really what the normal Israeli citizens thinks? That Israel was a land given to them by their G-D? .......

I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN ISRAEL BELIEVE THAT G-D GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE, HOWEVER MOST DO NOT THINK THEY CAN USE THIS AS A POLITICAL ARGUMENT AMONGST THE NATIONS.

NEVERTHELESS MANY PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS A DIVINE AUTHORITY.

I SPOKE WITH A PALESTINIAN WHO CLAIMED THAT JOSHUA, (MOSES'S DISCIPLE) MADE UP A STORY THAT G-D COMMANDED HIM TO CONQUER THE 7 NATIONS OF CANAAN, LATER TO BE RENAMED ISRAEL. MY REPLY WAS THAT THE BIBLE IS WELL ACCEPTED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AS A FACT, RATHER THAN A STORY. HIS REPLY WAS THEN WHY DON'T THE JEWS OBSERVE THE TORAH? I RESPONDED THAT THEY DO AND MANY HAVE RETURNED TO STUDY THE TORAH AND OBSERVE ITS COMMANDS.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE WORRYING ABOUT WHAT THE NORMAL ISRAELI CITIZEN THINKS, BUT RATHER WHAT THE NORMAL MOSLEM OR ARAB THINKS LIVING HERE IN AMERICA. JUST REMEMBER THAT IT WAS MOSLEMS FROM A "MODERATE" ARAB COUNTRY THAT BLEW UP THE WORLD TRADE BUILDINGS.

[danholo]

Originally posted by Micah
Certain laws even non-Jews have to obey in Israel, such as the prohibition against idolatry. They also aren't allowed to work on Shabbat.

Idolatry is prohibited in the seven Noahide laws.

[ibrodsky]

I think it is more accurate to say that the Torah is accepted as a credible source of historical information. (Not Creation, but the Exodus from Egypt and history of Israel.)

The problem with "divine right" to the land is that 1) other religions may make conflicting claims, and 2) as you point out this type of argument is not accepted by the nations of the world.

I think there are stronger arguments that can and should be accepted by the nations of the world:

1) Israel was the Jewish homeland from which Jews were expelled;
2) some Jews managed to remain in historical Israel despite this;
3) Palestine was sparsely populated when modern Zionism emerged;
4) the Arab homeland in the Middle East is Jordan; and
5) more than two generations have passed since Israel was founded.

Furthermore, those who reject Britain's right to divvy up the Middle East should consider that the Arab states designated by Britain were all accepted. The fact is that in those days pan-Arabism was much more popular among Arabs than nationalism.

Originally, all of Israel, the disputed territories, and Jordan were reserved as the Jewish national home. Then Jordan won independence in 1946. This was followed by the UN partition plan. In other words, the Arabs were given the vast majority of land that had been earmarked for the Jews. But they insisted on having it all.

[Mediocrates]

I broke the left Alt keyt once playing Doom. Could it be that your Caps Lock seized up somehow?

[Abraham]

Originally posted by danholo


Idolatry is prohibited in the seven Noahide laws.

ACCORDING TO TORAH LAW, OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL NON JEWS WERE PERMITTED TO HAVE AN INTERMEDIARY, HOWEVER WITHIN THE LAND OF ISRAEL THEY COULD ONLY WORSHIP THE ONE AND TRUE G-D, WITHOUT ANY INTERMEDIARY.

[Abraham]

WHEN THE MOSHIACH (MESSIAH) COMES IT IS UNDERSTOOD FROM THE ABOVE STATEMENTS THAT A PEACEFUL MOSLEM WOULD BE PERMITTED TO LIVE IN ISRAEL SINCE HE WORSHIPS THE ONE G-D.

[NewsGuy]

Abraham,

From here on in, your all-caps posts will be deleted.

[Abraham]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ibrodsky
The problem with "divine right" to the land is that 1) other religions may make conflicting claims, and 2) as you point out this type of argument is not accepted by the nations of the world.
I think there are stronger arguments that can and should be accepted by the nations of the world:
1) Israel was the Jewish homeland from which Jews were expelled;
2) some Jews managed to remain in historical Israel despite this;
3) Palestine was sparsely populated when modern Zionism emerged;
4) the Arab homeland in the Middle East is Jordan; and
5) more than two generations have passed since Israel was founded.
[QUOTE]

Their is no problem with Divine Right since this is the only right we have to stand on. Do the Moslems really claim Divine right? In any case, since G-d gave us the land, we should stop being concerned about the rejection of the other nations. France & England won't budge, since they are intimidated by a strong Arab presence living within their boarders. America's no different. You see the double standard they have when it comes to destroying terrorism. Everything goes when it comes to a war against America, but Israel needs to have one hand tied. The Jews need to listen to the G-d of Israel and become a light to the nations. The 5 reasons you stated are fine, but since the world doesn't care about the Jew, these reasons mean nothing to them. Yet they believe in the Bible (many do) and G-d tells us what to answer the Nations when they come and tell us that we are robbers for stealing the land. We should answer that G-d created the world and it belongs to Him. First He gave them the land and He took it away from them and gave it to us. Even France and England can understand this for they ultimately are concerned with how G-d will deal with them if they go against Him.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Abraham
[QUOTE]

Their is no problem with Divine Right since this is the only right we have to stand on.

If you are talking about universal rights, yes.

If you are talking about Israel being promised to the Jewish people, no. That is based on religious belief.

Do the Moslems really claim Divine right?

They claim a piece of Jerusalem. Would their claim be stronger if the Koran said that Jerusalem had been promised to them? Then you would have two conflicting claims of "divine right."

In any case, since G-d gave us the land, we should stop being concerned about the rejection of the other nations. France & England won't budge, since they are intimidated by a strong Arab presence living within their boarders. America's no different.

Britain and France are anxious to appease Israel's Arab enemies. The U.S., however, is clearly different. There is strong support for Israel throughout the U.S. President Bush has consistently refused to meet with Arafat, the Father of Modern Terrorism.

You see the double standard they have when it comes to destroying terrorism. Everything goes when it comes to a war against America, but Israel needs to have one hand tied.

But is this really what is happening? President Bush has consulted with PM Sharon several times. After the latest spate of terrorist attacks, there have been no calls from the White House to halt Operation Determined Path. Instead, the administration has made it clear that the Palestinians need to stop terrorism and get new leaders and democratic institutions.

Arafat is trying his best to make it look like he is leading a reform movement. But the bottomline is that U.S. policy is causing deeper splits within Palestinian and other Arab societies.

The Jews need to listen to the G-d of Israel and become a light to the nations. The 5 reasons you stated are fine, but since the world doesn't care about the Jew, these reasons mean nothing to them. Yet they believe in the Bible (many do) and G-d tells us what to answer the Nations when they come and tell us that we are robbers for stealing the land. We should answer that G-d created the world and it belongs to Him. First He gave them the land and He took it away from them and gave it to us. Even France and England can understand this for they ultimately are concerned with how G-d will deal with them if they go against Him.

It sounds like you are saying that since the Palestinians seem to be winning the propaganda war, we should withdraw from the public debate. I disagree. We should do more to counter the propaganda.

Arafat has built a terrorist culture. European countries are terribly misguided to think Arafat is a statesman. We should convince as many Europeans as possible that Arafat supports terrorism, and that Palestinian terrorism against Israel and the Jewish people is no more justified than the WTC massacre.

[Layton]

Abraham I just hope your views are not that of the Israeli majority. If it is, then im going to loose all respect for Israel. No kidding. You just CANNOT claim lands because a deity gave permission to conquer it. We are living in the 21th century, not the freaking Dark Ages!

Arafat has built a terrorist culture. European countries are terribly misguided to think Arafat is a statesman. We should convince as many Europeans as possible that Arafat supports terrorism, and that Palestinian terrorism against Israel and the Jewish people is no more justified than the WTC massacre.

For what its worth, im from Europe and i dont like Arafat at all. Hes corrupt, incompetent and does more harm then good for the Palestinians. Alot of people i know think the same.

I do feel some sympathy for the Palestinian people and am strongly opposed against the zionist settlements inside what is meant to become a Palestinian state in the future. Terrorism is not the way to get a Palestinian state though, non-violent protest would work a lot better IMO.

[danholo]

Abraham's views are not the same as of the Israeli majority and I'm with the Israeli majority.

By Jewish religion though, the only way Jews can live in Israel, is to abide by Torah. Otherwise "the land will vomit you out".
There are passages in the Torah that are frightiningly accurate, concerning this subject. This would mean though, that Jews would have to leave again!
All "foreigners" that join in the land, must abide by these laws too, that they won't "contaminate" the minds of the Israelites and that's exactly what happened.
But I doubt Jews will be "contaminated" with a culture that sacrifices children anymore.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Layton
For what its worth, im from Europe and i dont like Arafat at all. Hes corrupt, incompetent and does more harm then good for the Palestinians. Alot of people i know think the same.

I do feel some sympathy for the Palestinian people and am strongly opposed against the zionist settlements inside what is meant to become a Palestinian state in the future. Terrorism is not the way to get a Palestinian state though, non-violent protest would work a lot better IMO.

I'm glad you can see Arafat is corrupt -- though that's putting it mildly: he's a life-long terrorist with the blood of thousands of innocent people on his hands.

Surely you can see my point: most European governments see Arafat as an "elected" and, therefore, legitimate leader. As Ariel Sharon said after the Passover Massacre, most leaders called him and asked not how the survivors were doing, but whether Arafat was confined to three rooms or only two.

As for your feelings regarding the settlements, I can understand why you feel that way. Decades of Arab propaganda echoed by left wing politicians and media...

Perhaps you can explain to me why the disputed territories must be Jew-free. There are one million Arabs living in Israel. I do not see why there can't be a Jewish minority in the "Palestinian" state, the concept of which is a very recent invention.

Second, if you study modern history you will see that Israel would be totally justified to simply annex the disputed territories. The IDF captured these areas only because Arab countries had been attacking her from the day she was born. Israel decided not to annex the territories for two reasons:

1) She would inherit a large Arab population with the world's highest birthright -- a threat to Israel's existence as the Jewish homeland; and
2) Israel decided to reserve the territories as a bargaining chip should there eventually be a real willingness on the part of the Arab world to negotiate a settlement.

Clearly, the Arab world is overall not ready to negotiate a just settlement. It was only after Israel began building settlements that Egypt and Jordan became amenable. I think they realized time was running out.

In any event, I reject the idea that no Jews can live in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. If Israel tried to drive the Arabs out of Israel there would be howls of "ethnic cleansing!" But when Palestinians demand that Jews be driven out of their land (that never was their land), no one cares, because instead of sitting around and feeling sorry for ourselves, Jews build modern cities, develop technology, and contribute more than our fair share to the arts and sciences.

Maybe someday Palestinian society will create something other than death, destruction, hatred, and slander. But as long as polls show the majority of Palestinians support terrorist mass murder, I have little sympathy for them.

[michael]

I've just read the 2 pages of this thread. I thought that this was the "Peace Think Tank" but given the complete absence of anything resembling discussion about peace, I'm obviously mistaken.

[danholo]

This thread is, indeed, entirely out of context.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by michael
I've just read the 2 pages of this thread. I thought that this was the "Peace Think Tank" but given the complete absence of anything resembling discussion about peace, I'm obviously mistaken.

Discussions sometimes stray off topic a bit.

However, I just scanned several of your posts. Besides your lunatic post about how Arafat is actually working for Israel, what have you contributed?

[pouzzler]

ibrodsky said:

"Perhaps you can explain to me why the disputed territories must be Jew-free. There are one million Arabs living in Israel. I do not see why there can't be a Jewish minority in the "Palestinian" state, the concept of which is a very recent invention."

Of course, the Arabs living in Israël have not *stolen* the land.
Though I am obviously not the one deciding, I say if the Jews really want to live in Palestine, let them now, since it is no more occupied, but Palestinian land, *buy* the land from the Palestinian authority...

[Mediocrates]

That's nonsense, you don't buy land you already live on - that's called extortion. If you want to wring money from the Jews there is probably a more subtle way for you to do that.

[marcus777]

OK, how much do you suppose the 40 or so acres
is going for just east of the Wailing Wall?

The issue has been, is, and always shall be,
who controls the Temple Mount. Everything
else is a smokescreen.

[danholo]

Settelments are legitimate because a. Most of the settlement land was bought by Jews before even the year 1948, they lived there and Jordan kicked them out. b. not even that Jews have lived in that area continuously for a period of about 3000 years.
Jordan had NO right to kick these people out and destroy their homes. c. Jerusalem has ALWAYS (except for a short period of time when the Romans expelled every Jew from that city) has a Jewish majority.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by pouzzler
Of course, the Arabs living in Israël have not *stolen* the land.
Though I am obviously not the one deciding, I say if the Jews really want to live in Palestine, let them now, since it is no more occupied, but Palestinian land, *buy* the land from the Palestinian authority...

The charge that Jews "stole" land in the disputed territories is false. Anyone who has visited the West Bank knows that most of the land is vacant and untilled. Palestinians are fond of making undocumented ownership claims after-the-fact, knowing there is an audience eager to embrace such baseless statements.

As I have said over and over: savages willing to blow up busloads of people are not going to stop at lying about land ownership.

[Abraham]

Originally posted by michael
I've just read the 2 pages of this thread. I thought that this was the "Peace Think Tank" but given the complete absence of anything resembling discussion about peace, I'm obviously mistaken.

Michael,
Sometimes the way to peace is through compromise. And sometimes peace needs to come through war.
There is no question that Israel is in a state of war with the terrorists and their supporters, which happens to be the majority of the so called "Palestinian" people. Their people, including their children are indoctrinated with hatred toward the Israelis. The only viable solution may turn out to be either their removal from the land of Israel or their destruction.

[Abraham]

Originally posted by Layton


Guess what.. it does make you sound like a religious extremist. Claiming lands because a divine creature of some sort gave it to you is religion at its worst.

I don't know that much about the varios religions out there, however you obliously have little respect for the Bible, since the Bible in fact does state that G-d is the Divine Author of the Bible and it also states that the Land of Israel was given to the Hebrews (The Jews).

[Abraham]

Originally posted by elke
Guess what, the quote above makes you sound like an extremist too.

Do you really think that believing in the Divine authority of the Bible is extreme?
Are you absolutely positive that G-d did not give the Torah to the Jews at Mount Sinai?
I don't think so. The only reason why the idea seems extreme is because the Jews are not a unified voice and many secular Jews are running the country of Israel. Since you don't hear this claim from them, you think it is extreme. This does not take away from the fact that G-d gave the Jews the Torah.

[elke]

Abraham, first of all, the quote you mentioned referred to the garbled message by Layton, which said something about little men in hell or somesuch. I was trying to point out the inconsistency in his/her logic.

Second of all, no, I am not sure that G-d did not give the Torah to the Jews at Mount Sinai. Neither am I sure that He did. I simply don't know, OK?

[Adversary2Arabs]

How about Layton just do the world a favor and end his life right now.

[Mediocrates]

that's uncalled for.

[Philip]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
The charge that Jews "stole" land in the disputed territories is false. Anyone who has visited the West Bank knows that most of the land is vacant and untilled. Palestinians are fond of making undocumented ownership claims after-the-fact, knowing there is an audience eager to embrace such baseless statements.

Uh huh. And what about the water stolen from the West Bank, which is now about a third of Israel's water supply, while the Palestinians are prohibited from expanding their use of water in any way? Your position is silly, as is the argument that there are vast quantities of vacant land throughout the Arab world that the Palestinians could be given -- yes, there is land, but most of it has no water, and virtually ALL of the land that has water is occupied.

[elke]

What about stolen air, Philip? That air that is breathed by everything alive? :rolleyes:

[Philip]

Speaking of air, Elke, are you getting enough oxygen to your brain?

And will you have the dignity to acknowledge that, your assinine protests notwithstanding, I was correct when I stated that Jews owned only about 6% of the land of Palestine (excluding Transjordan) when the State of Israel was created?

[elke]

Your personal attacks, Philip, don't affect me one bit. I have been attacked by much more intelligent opponents.

It's your asinine (notice the spelling, Philip) assumptions that are off the wall, not mine. Transjordan was indeed part of historical "Palestine", and excluding it from discussion is misleading. I understand that your purpose is precisely that - to mislead, - but you are going to have to deal with the reality that it won't work.

[Philip]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that people more intelligent than me have found cause to attack you.

And is it your position that Moshe Shertok/Sharret was refering to Palestine-including-Transjordan in 1947 -- twenty-five years after Transjordan was separated from Palestine -- when he offered as evidence that Jews were not driving Arabs off of the land the fact that Jews had managed to acquire less than seven percent of the land area of Palestine?

Whose purpose is to mislead?

Thank you for your spelling tip.

[elke]

Your purpose is to mislead. You jump all over the place, contradict yourself left and right, and generally have no understanding whatsoever of what the word "debate" means. In addition, thanks to your numerous personal attacks, your posts are edited to death by the Moderators - which is also part of the "plan", I suppose.

[Philip]

And your position on what Moshe Sharret was refering to in 1947 is...?

[ibrodsky]

I have no doubt that Islamist groups like CAIR allocate a significant part of their budgets to propaganda.

[elke]

Show me the quote you are referring to, Philip, and I will tell you what I think.

[Philip]

Of the allegation that the Jews are driving the Arabs off their land, Mr. Shertok said that with the progress of farming, Arab peasants were becoming more rooted in the soil, not less, and that the Jews have, so far, managed to acquire less than seven percent of the land area of Palestine.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/571b9a10c26738c7852569350055f202/$FILE/gapal20.pdf

[ibrodsky]

These lies have been disproved a thousand times before. Facts and reason do not deter terrorists.

[elke]

Given the context of the British Mandate, the quote sure seems to be referring to the whole Palestine, which included Transjordan.

[Philip]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
These lies have been disproved a thousand times before. Facts and reason do not deter terrorists.

Moshe Sharrett was lying to the UN?

[ibrodsky]

Is it so surprising? Arab countries have lied to the UN for decades.

[Philip]

Would you agree with ibrodsky, Elke, that Moshe Sharrett was lying to the UN?

And I suggest that you think about what you would do if I were to present irrefutable evidence that Sharrett was not including Transjordan as part of Palestine in coming up with his "less that seven percent" figure.

[elke]

Moshe Sharett died the year I was born. I have never met the man. Based on the information I have read, provided by various sources, I have an opinion regarding what he means.

Unlike you, Philip, I don't "think ahead" about what I will say, if there is incontrovertible evidence that my understanding of a particular point is incorrect. If you have found evidence that such is the case, and you consider this to be an important point, - go ahead and present it, I will read it.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Philip
Would you agree with ibrodsky, Elke, that Moshe Sharrett was lying to the UN?

And I suggest that you think about what you would do if I were to present irrefutable evidence that Sharrett was not including Transjordan as part of Palestine in coming up with his "less that seven percent" figure.

The Big Lie is not that Jews only owned about 7% of "Western Palestine" in 1947 (what is today Israel plus the disputed territories). It is the implication that Arabs owned the rest, or even just most of the land in the area proposed as the Jewish Partition.

(By Western Palestine, I mean the Mandate less Transjordan.)

Arabs owned about 20% of all of Western Palestine in 1947. But Jews were not asking for all of Western Palestine. They were asking for the mainly coastal area where I am fairly certain Arabs owned less than 7% of the land.

But the Arabs demanded 100% of Western Palestine for their state. Such was (and is) their concept of "fair."

To wit, their slogan was "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine."

Then, in their drive to grab what clearly wasn't theirs, they lost more land.

[USA911Israel247]

Originally posted by Micah
Certain laws even non-Jews have to obey in Israel, such as the prohibition against idolatry. They also aren't allowed to work on Shabbat.

There is no prohibition on working on Shabbat, is there? When I was there, I remember seeing many people working...there were people working at the front desk and in the kitchen of the hotel, people working at the water park down the street, security guards on duty at Hebrew University, etc...how do you figure? Is there a prohibition on stores and restaurants being open, even those owned by non-Jews? I thought I remembered a few restaurants being open, but I could be mistaken. But what exactly are the laws about Shabbat in Israel?

Also, I was wondering - when the military does an incursion (is this the ok term?) like the one in April, or other semi-offensive operation, do they continue to carry out the operation on Shabbat? I've been wondering about that...

[danholo]

USA911:

This is because Israel is a secular state. Not religious.
Guarding, incursions are allowed on shabbat if the mission is to save life.

[Abraham]

Originally posted by ibrodsky

If you are talking about universal rights, yes.
If you are talking about Israel being promised to the Jewish people, no. That is based on religious belief.
They claim a piece of Jerusalem. Would their claim be stronger if the Koran said that Jerusalem had been promised to them? Then you would have two conflicting claims of "divine right."

It sounds like you are saying that since the Palestinians seem to be winning the propaganda war, we should withdraw from the public debate. I disagree. We should do more to counter the propaganda.
Arafat has built a terrorist culture. European countries are terribly misguided to think Arafat is a statesman. We should convince as many Europeans as possible that Arafat supports terrorism............

Universal rights ??? International Law would give the Land to the Victor, especially when fighting a defensive war.
Israel defended itself from the attacks of the Arab nations surrounding it and won.
And let's note that the Arab Nations who attacked Israel, promised their fellow Arabs living within Israel the spoils.
Yet who would believe that the small number of Israelis would be victorious. (with G-d's help)
Do you really think that Israel is in the hands of the Jews because the UN gave them the land? Sure this is so, but why did they give Israel and not Uganda or some other place? It was because of the more than 3,000 year old historical claim rooted in the Bible. If the Arabs didn't have the oil, no one take seriously any Arab claim to the land of Israel.

As far as I'm concerned, the Arab claim is weaker since we are the only ones that make such a claim to the land.
However there already exists two conflicting claims of "Divine right" to the Land of Israel. For the Moslem claim that we are all infidels, gives them a so called "divine right" to war with us and take the land. According to their teachings, they are also permitted to make a false peace while quietly preparing for a war of destruction. Israel is now foolish to allow them in their government. Israel cannot be a Democracy and continue to neglect G-d's Torah.

You say that the European countries are terribly misguided.
These nations are afraid to deal with the Arab nations and the Arab population within for a number of reasons. (Oil, money, and terror.) What did you think about the French TV Station that apologized to the PLO for airing the two bloodied hands of a Palestinian tormentor and the throwing out of a building head first and tied by his feet the murdered Israeli? ???

There is no logic that will convince the world of Israel's right to the land of Israel other than the absolute truth. However, right now the truth is more important for Jews to dwell on. We need to first of all be proud of our heritage and not be ashamed of stating the truth. The rest of the world will be able to accept it. President Bush and the Bible Belt that helped him get into office is ready to hear it. Many others will follow, besides we are assured G-d's protection when we study His Torah and obey His commands, we are given protection and success.

You say religious belief, I say well known fact. The reason Jews began celebrating Passover and Shavuos is because G-d actually took them out of Egypt, and fifty days later, they received the Torah (The Bible). (Passover and Shavuos are the holidays commemorating the redemption from Egypt and the receiving of the Torah on Mount Sinai) There has never been such a claim by any people on earth that G-d took them out from the midst of another nation with signs and wonders. We are talking History here and this is why so many people throughout the world have accepted the Bible as truly given by G-d. I am speaking here of a historical fact that was documented by the whole nation who was redeemed as well as by the surrounding nations who heard what had happened to the Super Power nation of that day (Egypt).

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Abraham


Do you really think that Israel is in the hands of the Jews because the UN gave them the land? Sure this is so, but why did they give Israel and not Uganda or some other place? It was because of the more than 3,000 year old historical claim rooted in the Bible. If the Arabs didn't have the oil, no one take seriously any Arab claim to the land of Israel.

It was because of a 3,000 year connection, the Jews have lived in the area continuously, and the fact that "Palestine" was sparsely populated when the Zionist enterprise began in the 1890s.

As far as I'm concerned, the Arab claim is weaker since we are the only ones that make such a claim to the land.
However there already exists two conflicting claims of "Divine right" to the Land of Israel. For the Moslem claim that we are all infidels, gives them a so called "divine right" to war with us and take the land. According to their teachings, they are also permitted to make a false peace while quietly preparing for a war of destruction. Israel is now foolish to allow them in their government. Israel cannot be a Democracy and continue to neglect G-d's Torah.

OK, there are conflicting claim's of "divine right." You only make my point: there must be some basis, more acceptable to reasonable people, than the claims of the Torah and Koran. (Not that I consider the two on the same level -- I don't -- but I don't think either Jews or Muslims can go to the rest of the world and say "our scriptures say this, so case closed.")

You say that the European countries are terribly misguided.
These nations are afraid to deal with the Arab nations and the Arab population within for a number of reasons. (Oil, money, and terror.) What did you think about the French TV Station that apologized to the PLO for airing the two bloodied hands of a Palestinian tormentor and the throwing out of a building head first and tied by his feet the murdered Israeli? ???

I was being polite. French eagerness to placate Palestinian savages is despicable.

There is no logic that will convince the world of Israel's right to the land of Israel other than the absolute truth. However, right now the truth is more important for Jews to dwell on. We need to first of all be proud of our heritage and not be ashamed of stating the truth. The rest of the world will be able to accept it. President Bush and the Bible Belt that helped him get into office is ready to hear it. Many others will follow, besides we are assured G-d's protection when we study His Torah and obey His commands, we are given protection and success.

Sorry, but if you are suggesting that non-revealed truth and logic are irrelevant, then I think you are still living (along with Muslims) in the era before Maimonides.

You say religious belief, I say well known fact. The reason Jews began celebrating Passover and Shavuos is because G-d actually took them out of Egypt, and fifty days later, they received the Torah (The Bible). (Passover and Shavuos are the holidays commemorating the redemption from Egypt and the receiving of the Torah on Mount Sinai) There has never been such a claim by any people on earth that G-d took them out from the midst of another nation with signs and wonders. We are talking History here and this is why so many people throughout the world have accepted the Bible as truly given by G-d. I am speaking here of a historical fact that was documented by the whole nation who was redeemed as well as by the surrounding nations who heard what had happened to the Super Power nation of that day (Egypt).

Even Jews don't agree on whether the Torah was written by G-d, inspired by G-d, or simply a good book. There is no way to prove whether everything in the Torah really happened. And there are inconsistencies in ages of characters, etc.

As you have pointed out, both Jews and Muslims consider it absolute truth that they are right. In the modern world, we don't resolve conflicts by referring to one or the other group's scriptures -- which others may not accept. That's important because the conflict is between Jews and others.

This kind of conflict has to ultimately be resolved by facts and reason. (Though in the interim it should be resolved by military means.)

"There has never been such a claim by any people on earth that G-d took them out from the midst of another nation with signs and wonders." But that is a claim. And I dare say the majority of Jews do not believe in "wonders" in the sense you use it -- or at least they would not argue on this basis to the world-at-large.

[garvis williams]

HI ABRAHAM, I HAVE READ SOME OF YOUR STATEMENTS AND AGREE WITH YOU 100%. The muslims never had a nation where Israel sits today and never will. This land was given to Israel by God and he said it would be from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates. There are a lot of muslims currently occupying some of this area that doesn't belong to them and never has. I am a male age 64 disabled and have studied prophecy for the past 25 years in depth. I don't usually get on the internet and argue with a lot of these dumb heads that has never opened their mind if they ever read a bible. I own 2 Strong's Exhaustive Concordances, about 15 different bibles, not that I need that many but wanted a lot of opinions and I got a lot of different opinions, not necessarly God's word. I usually refer to an old KJV BIBLE that was written in 1611, which is the first bible printed in english where all the other bibles were copied. If you truly love Jesus and call on him for understanding if there is certain scriptures that you do not understand, then he will give you the understanding you ask for in a time that sometimes will surprise you. He has to get you ready to receive the information, then he will pour it out on you and you alone. He will reveal prophecy that will scare you. He will not usually give it to you when other unbelievers are near. For myself, he always gets me alone and then dumbs all this knowlege into my mind. God bless you, Garvis Williams
GARVISWILLIAMS@AOL.COM :)

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by trainspotter18
Ibrodsky, compared to your usual posts, you have been quite objective throughout this debate.

You still use twisted justifications to rationalize evil acts committed by Israel (ie. Palestine was sparcely populated by Palestinians before the zionist migration so therefore Jews were justified in taking their land against their will), but I am not surprised. Afterall, "the ego is the hardest thing to let go of" -Ghandi.

Now if we could just get you to be objective...

Please provide some specific evidence -- not just unsubstantiated accusations -- that Jews took "their land against their will."

Zionists bought 7% of western Palestine (i.e., Palestine minus TransJordan). Arabs owned about 21%. 70% of the land was owned by the state (and was never owned by Arabs).

However, the 7% owned by Zionists was concentrated in the coastal area, while the 21% owned by Arabs was concentrated in the West Bank.

The bottomline: Zionists sought self-determination in an area where they were the overwhelming majority and owned more land than Arabs. They did not demand that Arabs forfeit their land. But Arabs do demand that Jews forfeit their land, and while we hear endless demands for compensating Arabs -- most of whom left voluntarily -- we never hear demands from people like you for compensating Jews who fled intensified persecution in Arab countries following Israel's establishement.

You can argue that Britain had no right to promise all of Palestine as the Jewish homeland. But if you are fair-minded, you also have to recognize that the Arab claim to "own" Palestine was no more legitimate than Britain's. Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over four hundred years before Britain took possession. There never was an Arab state known as "Palestine."

Thus, in 1890 Palestine was sparsely populated -- particularly the coastal area. Since Jews had also lived in "Palestine" continuously (in fact, Jews rather than Arabs were the original "Palestinians") they had as much right to claim a piece of it as Arabs (who first showed up over 600 years after the Roman province called "Palestine" was born).

If you are really concerned about evil, the first thing you would notice is that even if Jews did steal land, which they didn't, this pales in comparison to blowing up civilians in malls, restaurants, on buses, etc.

The first demand of any decent and fair-minded person must be that Palestinians stop their profoundly evil terrorist attacks. To pretend these are in any way justifiable or "understandable" is to support -- or at least wink at -- evil. To suggest that Israel must withdraw before such attacks end is to justify such attacks -- and ignore the fact they started before the land was captured.

Now we will see if you can get past your ego and prejudices...