just be fair

[Hassan_Pal]

I don´t denie, that many of my views are onesided and i really try too change that, but isn´t that your failure too?

When i read here: carry all palestinian too Jordan ect...Palestine is my home, i born there. Jewes who lived in Diaspora should know, what home means...

[Roland]

I don´t denie, that many of my views are onesided and i really try too change that, but isn´t that your failure too?Your views are 100% your own personal problem. You cannot put the blame on anybody else.
You are given the opportunity to learn about other people's views here, though.
Use it well.


When i read here: carry all palestinian too Jordan ect...Palestine is my home, i born there. Jewes who lived in Diaspora should know, what home means...Understanding each other's views requires discussion and argumentation.
Why do you think do many people want to "carry all palestinian too Jordan"?

[Hassan_Pal]

I could ask you too, why so many people think: carry all jews too madagascar.

[Roland]

I could ask you too, why so many people think: carry all jews too madagascar.That is not really an answer to my question.
And leave Madagascar alone please! :rolleyes: Madagascar has it's own load of problems to care about.
Those people who think all jews should be transferred to Madagascar obviously equate Madagascar = hell. As in "Jews go to hell."
Unproductive, unworthy, racist.
And it has a completely different message than "Transfer all palestinians to Jordan", were many palestinians live. Right?
Isn't Israel the place where the israeli people should live?
What is a palestinian?
How do you define yourself?

[Hassan_Pal]

I definy me with the house, the land around. The place wheer i palyed with my friends.

[hadees]

And the 900,000 Jews who were thrown out of their homes and lost their land. Life isn't fair but you have to make due. Jordan is already a majority Palestinian and good bit larger then Israel with better resources. Thats the reason people think it is fair that Palestinians should move to Jordan.

[Roland]

I definy me with the house, the land around. The place wheer i palyed with my friends.If that's all - what is your problem?
If your answers won't get somehow more specific and explicit, I'll stop ftt.

[ItsMyJewty]

Hassan_Pal: I could ask you too, why so many people think: carry all jews too madagascar.

Already been tried once. Could be a solution for the "Palestinians", though.


IMJ

[Hassan_Pal]

deportation is never a solution.

[Roland]

deportation is never a solution.
Wrong. Deportation was effective to get rid of Germans after WW2 in eastern Europe.

[Hassan_Pal]

Thta´s a very bad opinion. I don´t want lose my home forever.

[Yala]

Thta´s a very bad opinion. I don´t want lose my home forever.

Hello Hassan. Where was your family's home? Inside the 1948 borders or outside? Second, while I'm not advocating that Palestinians be transferred anywhere I just want to know if you are aware that pre 1922 Jordan was also part of the Palestinian Mandate. Are you aware of this? Does it bother you that part of what you consider Palestine was given to the Hashemites and not to the Palestinian people?

[Hassan_Pal]

Ramallah...

[Yala]

Ramallah...

Well you can return there, that is still a Palestinian town. How come you didn't answer the rest of my post?

[José_B]

I would like to answer your question, Yala.

[José_B]

Originally posted by Yala
Does it bother you that part of what you consider Palestine was given to the Hashemites and not to the Palestinian people?

No, it doesn't bother them because the palestinian national identity was created by the events that took place in western Palestine during the first half of the last century.

[Yala]

"No, it doesn't bother them because the palestinian national identity was created by the events that took place in western Palestine during the first half of the last century."

Isn't 1923 in the first half of the last century? Why Western Palestine only? Why don't they care that 78% of the Palestinian Mandate was given to the Hashemites to form Jordan?

[tzanchan]

"No, it doesn't bother them because the palestinian national identity was created by the events that took place in western Palestine during the first half of the last century."

Isn't 1923 in the first half of the last century? Why Western Palestine only? Why don't they care that 78% of the Palestinian Mandate was given to the Hashemites to form Jordan?

Because when 78% of the Palestinian mandate was given away to the hashemites, the arabs of this area still had not developed the idea of nationalism. They were more connected to their tribal and familial allies than their palestinian nationalities. The Nashishibis and the Husseini clan are the main two. Ironically it was the Jews that introduced the idea of nationalism into the arabs. Since only the western remains of Palestine was left, they formed this identity around themselves. The Jordanian hashemite side was mostly beduin for much of the time, until they recieved all the refugees. In any case, living in ramalla Hassan doesnt have much to worry about. The likes of Israel Forum posters thankfully dont run Israel, and ramallian arabs certainly arent going anywhere.

[Yala]

Because when 78% of the Palestinian mandate was given away to the hashemites, the arabs of this area still had not developed the idea of nationalism. They were more connected to their tribal and familial allies than their palestinian nationalities. The Nashishibis and the Husseini clan are the main two. Ironically it was the Jews that introduced the idea of nationalism into the arabs. Since only the western remains of Palestine was left, they formed this identity around themselves. The Jordanian hashemite side was mostly beduin for much of the time, until they recieved all the refugees. In any case, living in ramalla Hassan doesnt have much to worry about. The likes of Israel Forum posters thankfully dont run Israel, and ramallian arabs certainly arent going anywhere.

I'm aware that Palestinian nationality did not start picking up speed until 1964. That still doesn't explain why Palestinian Arabs today only demand back the area of the Palestinian mandate controlled by Jews and not the area of the Palestinian Mandate controlled by the Hashemites. And if you want to get technical, the PLO used to demand the whole Palestinian Mandate. That is until the King of Jordan murdered 5,000 Palestinians in Black September to quell Arafat's coup.

In any case, if you were following the whole thread and not just the last few posts you would've noticed that the original poster does not reside in Ramallah and nobody told him to go anywhere. As a matter of fact I asked him why he did not return. Furthermore, what makes you think a Meretz voter from Tel Aviv or NY would have any say in Israeli politics in the first place? I don't think Meretz faired very well in the last election, better luck next time ;)

[The Israeli Guy]

I don´t denie, that many of my views are onesided and i really try too change that, but isn´t that your failure too?

When i read here: carry all palestinian too Jordan ect...Palestine is my home, i born there. Jewes who lived in Diaspora should know, what home means...
Go and lern the history, young man! You want us to be objective so we can accept the subjectivity aspiration of our enemies to destroy us! (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=221731&postcount=32)

[sharonbn]

Hi Hassan_Pal

Don't despair, there are a few Israelis who recognize and support the national rights and aspirations of the Palestinians. I as an Israeli would love to have you as my neighbor in independant Palestine. Inshallah we will live to see the end of the Israeli imperialist occupation of Palestinian land and then we will sit together for a game of sheshbesh :)

In all fairness, a good long step forward would be if the current Palestinian gov't would recognize Israel's right to exist in safety and security.

[KettleWhistle]

Hi Hassan_Pal

Don't despair, there are a few Israelis who recognize and support the national rights and aspirations of the Palestinians. I as an Israeli would love to have you as my neighbor in independant Palestine. Inshallah we will live to see the end of the Israeli imperialist occupation of Palestinian land and then we will sit together for a game of sheshbesh :)


Inshallah, leftists like you would migrate out to Gaza to truly be neighbors with the "Palestinians."

[Aviva]

I don´t denie, that many of my views are onesided and i really try too change that, but isn´t that your failure too?

When i read here: carry all palestinian too Jordan ect...Palestine is my home, i born there. Jewes who lived in Diaspora should know, what home means...

From what you've written previously on the forum, Hasan_Pal, we've deduced that you're a teenager living in Spain.

I think you're an idealist (like many teenagers) and aren't aware of the real issues involved in the conflict between the Israelis and the Arabs.

You say Palestine is your home. However, the area called "Palestine" was divided after WWII and Israel and Jordan were created. "Palestine" doesn't actually exist anymore. It was only ever called Palestine by the Romans to end it's previous association with the Jews. It's now under Jewish control again. Times change.

[tzanchan]

I'm aware that Palestinian nationality did not start picking up speed until 1964. That still doesn't explain why Palestinian Arabs today only demand back the area of the Palestinian mandate controlled by Jews and not the area of the Palestinian Mandate controlled by the Hashemites. And if you want to get technical, the PLO used to demand the whole Palestinian Mandate. That is until the King of Jordan murdered 5,000 Palestinians in Black September to quell Arafat's coup. They wanted Jordan because it is more territory. That doesnt mean that they share any national identity with todays non palestinian jordanians.




In any case, if you were following the whole thread and not just the last few posts you would've noticed that the original poster does not reside in Ramallah and nobody told him to go anywhere. As a matter of fact I asked him why he did not return. Furthermore, what makes you think a Meretz voter from Tel Aviv or NY would have any say in Israeli politics in the first place? I don't think Meretz faired very well in the last election, better luck next time ;)

Well I was more in shcem/lebanon than I was in NY and tel aviv lately, but in bint jabil one doesnt have the chance to change their place location on an internet forum. In any chance, this should definitely give me more of a say than a likud poster from california.

[tzanchan]

Inshallah, leftists like you would migrate out to Gaza to truly be neighbors with the "Palestinians."

Rightists like you already tried that in gush katif, no?
In any case, leftists like us could always go visit our Palestinian neighbors in Israel itself who are more important for the cause.

[KettleWhistle]

Rightists like you already tried that in gush katif, no?
In any case, leftists like us could always go visit our Palestinian neighbors in Israel itself who are more important for the cause.
Yeah, for your cause of destroying Israel. You people are truly despicable. How little love or how much hate you have to your homeland and people is truly abhorent.

[ItsMyJewty]

sharonbn: Don't despair, there are a few Israelis who recognize and support the national rights and aspirations of the Palestinians. I as an Israeli would love to have you as my neighbor in independant Palestine. Inshallah we will live to see the end of the Israeli imperialist occupation of Palestinian land and then we will sit together for a game of sheshbesh

Yes, don't despair, Hassan. There are a few weak-kneed wets around who'll listen to your phoney claims and give you what you want. A few more bombs and they'll be bending over backwards (with their pants down) to help you. Who knows, Israel could even become the SECOND Palestine.

We're all crying about the shortage of land for the Arabs... It's terrible! They've got 600 times the land mass of Isreal and it still isn't enough.


IMJ

[tzanchan]

Yeah, for your cause of destroying Israel. You people are truly despicable. How little love or how much hate you have to your homeland and people is truly abhorent.

And I think that your excessive nationalism and lack of morality as a representative of my people is also abhorent.

[tzanchan]

We're all crying about the shortage of land for the Arabs... It's terrible! They've got 600 times the land mass of Isreal and it still isn't enough.


IMJ

That is no argument. For one they are 600 times our population, so it would be reasonable for them to have more land. The fact that they want more territory is not something unique to the Arabs. Every people seeks more territory/resources. And more importanly, the fact that a ramallian arab wants to live in ramallah is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to say "your peoples have a lot of land in morocco, and yemen, so you should get up and move..."

[Mil]

Posted by Tzanchan:

That is no argument. For one they are 600 times our population, so it would be reasonable for them to have more land. The fact that they want more territory is not something unique to the Arabs. Every people seeks more territory/resources. And more importanly, the fact that a ramallian arab wants to live in ramallah is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to say "your peoples have a lot of land in morocco, and yemen, so you should get up and move..."

I have nothing against your arguments - I just doubt that Arabs share the same humanitarian sentiment. I am pretty sure you wouldn't find at least a single Jew who would not want to see the Israeli/Pal conflict resolved in some just manner - it's the matter of the other side taking the initiative seriously and STOP playing their stupid Arab politics.

The conflict has been running for the past 60 years!!!! and definetly the Arabs have a lot more power to politically influence the resolutions then all of Israel's political will combined.

[tzanchan]

Posted by Tzanchan:

That is no argument. For one they are 600 times our population, so it would be reasonable for them to have more land. The fact that they want more territory is not something unique to the Arabs. Every people seeks more territory/resources. And more importanly, the fact that a ramallian arab wants to live in ramallah is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to say "your peoples have a lot of land in morocco, and yemen, so you should get up and move..."

I have nothing against your arguments - I just doubt that Arabs share the same humanitarian sentiment. I am pretty sure you wouldn't find at least a single Jew who would not want to see the Israeli/Pal conflict resolved in some just manner - it's the matter of the other side taking the initiative seriously and STOP playing their stupid Arab politics.

The conflict has been running for the past 60 years!!!! and definetly the Arabs have a lot more power to politically influence the resolutions then all of Israel's political will combined.


I also may doubt that arabs have my same sentiments. I think the Jewish empathy/moral thought is unique to their culture. The fact that this is absent in many other cultures strengthens the justification for secular zionism-- as a means to preserve this moral culture. This is in contrast, to the supra nationalist absurd rational of those like kettle whistle who simply believe it is a axiomatic moral right for all nations to live in nation states on their 'homeland' as defined by where their ancestors may have lived 2000 years ago; and everyone not on these lands is a 'foreigner' not deserving of equal rights. I think it is more detrimental to the zionist cause those that uphold these ultra nationalistic views because it often takes away the moral high ground from the Jews, taking away one of the main justifications of zionism. Thus based on Kettlewhistle's logic-- he is an anti-zionistic, because I feel his actions harm zionism.

[Yala]

In any chance, this should definitely give me more of a say than a likud poster from california.

But it would not. I am happy that even at the height of Israel's support for withdrawal, Meretz hardly received any votes while a select few still blindly follow Beilin into the sea of abyss. Likud will be strong again. Of this, you can be sure.

You see I support a 2 state solution and I had supported the disengagement from Gaza. I only started being sorry that I supported it when I saw how the evacuees were treated and when relatives in Ashkelon called me about the qassams. Yes, I know, there were qassams before disengagement as all who supported disengagement are quick to point out. However, this was promised to be stopped after disegagement. All the politicians were saying they would go in- in full force- if there were "one rocket." Please.

[ItsMyJewty]

tzanchan:That is no argument. For one they are 600 times our population, so it would be reasonable for them to have more land. The fact that they want more territory is not something unique to the Arabs. Every people seeks more territory/resources. And more importanly, the fact that a ramallian arab wants to live in ramallah is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to say "your peoples have a lot of land in morocco, and yemen, so you should get up and move..."

Nonsense. Check out your facts - the combined population of the Arab countries is 323 million. Israel has a population of 7 million. Simple mathematics tells you that the Arabs have a population that is 46 - and not 600 - times that of Israel.

The "Palestinians" have no right of sovereignty in Israel.


IMJ

[sharonbn]

Yeah, for your cause of destroying Israel. You people are truly despicable. How little love or how much hate you have to your homeland and people is truly abhorent.

At least we don't rejoyce when Jews kill other Jews, that much love we still have...

[Yala]

At least we don't rejoyce when Jews kill other Jews, that much love we still have...

Who are you accusing of doing that?

[tzanchan]

Who are you accusing of doing that?

prolly kettlewhistle who rejoiced over the assasination of Rabin.

[KettleWhistle]

Yes, I rejoiced when a traitorous murderer and deserter that Rabin was shot. He should've been courtmarshalled for his crimes against Israel, and I applaud the courage of Igal Amir in bring justice to this murderer of Jews of Altalena, and of all these people: http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

Those people's blood is on Rabin's hands. On Peres's hands. On Beilin's hands. On the hands of membership of Gush Shoa(lom). So I won't feel any regret if any of the above get shot like Rabin did. The above-mentioned people deserve to be tried and imprisoned for what they have done to Israel and the Jewish people. And if the country's justice system doesn't work, I'm fine with citizen's justice being served.

[sharonbn]

well... to each his own.
I for one can do without that kind of "love" for my people.

[KettleWhistle]

well... to each his own.
I for one can do without that kind of "love" for my people.

Yes, I'm well aware of the Israeli leftists' attitudes:

Fighting for justice and equality for Jews in the Jewish state--bad

Helping Arabs kill more Jews--good.

[sharonbn]

We don't need to help the arabs kill more Jews.
We got Jews doing that.

[Roland]

Yes, I'm well aware of the Israeli leftists' attitudes:

Fighting for justice and equality for Jews in the Jewish state--bad

Helping Arabs kill more Jews--good.

Democracy: Let the authorities enfoce the law to archive justice.
Facism: Don't like Rabin? Just shoot him. Justice is what I say.

[Yala]

Here it is ladies and gents: An extreme rightist and an extreme leftist. I've seen this SAME EXACT argument a thousand times on Israeli message boards. Enough with the Altalena and enough with the Rabin assassination. Both were horrible and in both situations Jews died. And that is never a time to rejoice. We have CURRENT problems that need to be worked on.

Where oh where are the Israeli mainstream? No wonder the country is so polarized. Israel is reminding me more and more of America every day...

[KettleWhistle]

I take offense at you calling me an exteme rightist. I am not. Unless loving your people and your home unconditionally qualifies one for being an extreme rightist. But I don't believe so.

As for Rabin's murder being tragic or horrible, it was not. It was the right thing to do. And it's not tit-for-tat with Altalena. The difference is that Leftists claim that the fact that Rabin was a Jew makes it particularly tragic. I don't accept that. They don't find the truly inexcusable murder of Jews of Altalena to be outrageous. They don't call for those who perpetrated that crime to be jailed for life without conjugal visits.

Yet, when we are talking about a truly lowly character like Rabin being assasinated, all of the sudden, horror, it's Jew killing a Jew. Well, I have news for you: Jews killed Jews before. So the Jew-kill-Jew issue is irrelevant.

What's relevant here is whether Rabin deserved to die. I'd say that the Oslo treason was a crime worthy of capital punishment, and for the very least those who commited that crime should've been procecuted. But since they weren't, the next best happened, and justice was served. In most any other country, it would've been served by the legal authorities. I wish such was the case in Israel, but I'm just glad that one of those criminals didn't go completely unpunished.

[KettleWhistle]

Democracy: Let the authorities enfoce the law to archive justice.
Facism: Don't like Rabin? Just shoot him. Justice is what I say.

Wrong.
Democracy: Full citizens of a country vote for their government.

Citizen's justice: When the justice system doesn't work, it's time to take matters into our own hands.

[Mil]

Posted by tzanchan:


I also may doubt that arabs have my same sentiments. I think the Jewish empathy/moral thought is unique to their culture. The fact that this is absent in many other cultures strengthens the justification for secular zionism-- as a means to preserve this moral culture. This is in contrast, to the supra nationalist absurd rational of those like kettle whistle who simply believe it is a axiomatic moral right for all nations to live in nation states on their 'homeland' as defined by where their ancestors may have lived 2000 years ago; and everyone not on these lands is a 'foreigner' not deserving of equal rights. I think it is more detrimental to the zionist cause those that uphold these ultra nationalistic views because it often takes away the moral high ground from the Jews, taking away one of the main justifications of zionism. Thus based on Kettlewhistle's logic-- he is an anti-zionistic, because I feel his actions harm zionism.


You know, myself I am a very liberal person but I simply cannot relate to Arabs.

[The Israeli Guy]

Here it is ladies and gents: An extreme rightist and an extreme leftist.
An Israeli who says that he is a Right winger got nothing to be a shame of.

Being a Right winger in other countries in the world consider to be something negative. Rightism got bad stigma like people who likes war, nationalistic/chauvinistic, racist who wants to rull all over the world.

This isn't a right winger in the Israeli politics because the Israeli right doesn't want to controll all over the world etc but only to keep the places which are belong to him. It's like some homeless is taking your house by violance and when you are defending yourself and push him back then he call you a right winger - that's nonsence.

Israeli Right wingers (or their worldwide supporters like you, Pro-IsraelInSTL) have nothing to be a shame of cause they are only defend themselves and their homes.

Not mention the fact that after the Oslo war the borders between right and left Israelis become faded.

Does Israeli who defend his country from horrible enemies is consider to be a Right winger?

Does Israeli who love his country and don't want to give parts of her to his enemies just for them to fire missiles at him is consider to be a Right winger?

Does Israeli who takes preventive steps and kill his enemies in their own terriotry consider to be an occupier and a Right winger?

If the anti-semites and the haters of Israel and all the other AhMADinijads think so then they can call me an Israeli Right winger!

[Yala]

An Israeli who says that he is a Right winger got nothing to be a shame of.

Being a Right winger in other countries in the world consider to be something negative. Rightism got bad stigma like people who likes war, nationalistic/chauvinistic, racist who wants to rull all over the world.

This isn't a right winger in the Israeli politics because the Israeli right doesn't want to controll all over the world etc but only to keep the places which are belong to him. It's like some homeless is taking your house by violance and when you are defending yourself and push him back then he call you a right winger - that's nonsence.

Israeli Right wingers (or their worldwide supporters like you, Pro-IsraelInSTL) have nothing to be a shame of cause they are only defend themselves and their homes.

Not mention the fact that after the Oslo war the borders between right and left Israelis become faded.

Does Israeli who defend his country from horrible enemies is consider to be a Right winger?

Does Israeli who love his country and don't want to give parts of her to his enemies just for them to fire missiles at him is consider to be a Right winger?

Does Israeli who takes preventive steps and kill his enemies in their own terriotry consider to be an occupier and a Right winger?

If the anti-semites and the haters of Israel and all the other AhMADinijads think so then they can call me an Israeli Right winger!


Dude, I AM a right winger and very proud of it. Isn't that obvious from my posts? I won't, however, justify the murder of Rabin (or the murders on the Altalena for that matter). I personally know people who were about to emigrate to Israel but heard of the Altalena murders and moved to the United States instead. Israel lost thousands of Jews due to this act alone. Imagine Holocaust victims hearing that Jews killed other Jews in Israel! Could you imagine?

I think Oslo was a suicidal disaster but I would never condone or praise a civilian killing a PM! We are not terrorists and we are not Somalia. This is not the kind of Israel we dreamed of.

Olmert is horrible, probably the worst PM in Israel's history. There are even nuts who put curses on him. However, we lose our morality if we called to assassinate him. I do think that there should be mass protests 1 million + strong asking him to step down.

[Roland]

Wrong.
Democracy: Full citizens of a country vote for their government.

Citizen's justice: When the justice system doesn't work, it's time to take matters into our own hands.

No, you are wrong.
Democracy is more than a regular choice for their masters' subjects between candidate A and B on a piece of paper. Many despots have been elected by citizens.
Your "Citizen's justice" still means: If it works or not is my personal decision.
If you are not satisfied with your country's justice - improve the system! Don't backstab it.

[KettleWhistle]

No, you are wrong.
Democracy is more than a regular choice for their masters' subjects between candidate A and B on a piece of paper. Many despots have been elected by citizens.
Your "Citizen's justice" still means: If it works or not is my personal decision.
If you are not satisfied with your country's justice - improve the system! Don't backstab it.
Actually, that's what democracy means. Israeli democracy is case of a particularly weak democracy because it does not allow for direct elections of most of the "masters." Can you believe that most Members of the Knesset weren't actually voted for by the people? And, the Israeli elected officials are indeed masters, rather than civil servants that serve their constituency, and they cannot even be recalled by the people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_recall_election), as done in true democracies.

As for improving the judicial system, that's impossible, at the moment. Removing the despot is the next best choice. That's citizen's justice--one of the very few safeguards of democracy.

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."
John Adams

Although it is extremely unlikely that the fear of governmental tyranny, which gave rise to the Second Amendment, will ever be an important danger to our Nation, the Amendment remains an important declaration of our basic military-civilian relationship, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country.
President John F. Kennedy

[The Israeli Guy]

I won't, however, justify the murder of Rabin (or the murders on the Altalena for that matter).

I think Oslo was a suicidal disaster but I would never condone or praise a civilian killing a PM! We are not terrorists and we are not Somalia. This is not the kind of Israel we dreamed of.

Olmert is horrible, probably the worst PM in Israel's history. There are even nuts who put curses on him. However, we lose our morality if we called to assassinate him. I do think that there should be mass protests 1 million + strong asking him to step down.
Where did I say that I justify the murder of Rabin? Where did I say that I justify Altalena, I don't even know what was on Altalena. Where did I praise the killing of a PM? Where did I call for assassinate Olmert? Why are you putting inside my mouth words that I didn't say??

I think you were little bit confused with to where that post of yours above should be sent to.

[KettleWhistle]

Dude, I AM a right winger and very proud of it. Isn't that obvious from my posts? I won't, however, justify the murder of Rabin (or the murders on the Altalena for that matter). I personally know people who were about to emigrate to Israel but heard of the Altalena murders and moved to the United States instead. Israel lost thousands of Jews due to this act alone. Imagine Holocaust victims hearing that Jews killed other Jews in Israel! Could you imagine?

I think Oslo was a suicidal disaster but I would never condone or praise a civilian killing a PM! We are not terrorists and we are not Somalia. This is not the kind of Israel we dreamed of.

In the place where I was at the time people were dancing on the streets after hearing about Rabin being murdered. It was truly a moment of hope and optimism. We hoped that Oslo will be unilaterally abandoned. That security will be restored. That Arafat will get a bulet between the eyes. And that programs that pay the Arabs to leave Israel and never come back will multiply. For a moment, it felt like a breath of fresh air after years of what seemed like hopeless dismantling of Israel by Rabin and his crew. It was shocking to see that Israelis didn't share this optimism.

In your opinion, what would a PM have to do to deserve to be shot?

[farmall]

"In your opinion, what would a PM have to do to deserve to be shot?"

In a cultural war there is no reason not to kill traitors, so why shouldn't some self-sacrificing individual do the deed?

Nathuram Godse took out Ghandi (who there is no reason to admire after one gets past the martketing) because Ghandi betrayed Hindus. You need not fire a shot to do massive damage, and a "pacifist" traitor is still a traitor.

Assassination is just another tool in the tool box (with no collateral damage), and an enemy life is the reverse of precious. If one considers where loyalty should lie, those who would betray us to Muslims are far worse than Muslims.

While a Muslim has no moral obligation to me or the reverse, a traitor on either side is betraying their cultural obligations and should expect no mercy.

[Yala]

Where did I say that I justify the murder of Rabin? Where did I say that I justify Altalena, I don't even know what was on Altalena. Where did I praise the killing of a PM? Where did I call for assassinate Olmert? Why are you putting inside my mouth words that I didn't say??

I think you were little bit confused with to where that post of yours above should be sent to.

Hey Israeli Guy. I know YOU didn't condone any of those thiings but there are others on here who do. I was trying to let you know what kind of "right winger" I am, that's all. Sorry for the confusion.

The Altalena was a ship that the Irgun (with Begin in charge) arranged to bring to Israel with ammunition and Holocaust survivors. Ben Gurion had the ship shelled to show he was boss and to show that he and the IDF were in charge of Israel, not Begin or the Irgun or any other milita. True, it was important that there be one army, the IDF. However, Ben Gurion went above and beyond and as a result many Holocaust survivors were killed on that ship. Anyway, the most ironic part was Yitzchak Rabin was the one in charge of shelling the Altalena and many people say he killed Jews and b/c of karma he was killed by a Jew. Not saying I agree or disagree, but that is the story. Here are some more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena

[Yala]

In the place where I was at the time people were dancing on the streets after hearing about Rabin being murdered. It was truly a moment of hope and optimism. We hoped that Oslo will be unilaterally abandoned. That security will be restored. That Arafat will get a bulet between the eyes. And that programs that pay the Arabs to leave Israel and never come back will multiply. For a moment, it felt like a breath of fresh air after years of what seemed like hopeless dismantling of Israel by Rabin and his crew.

In your opinion, what would a PM have to do to deserve to be shot?

Well when Rabin was shot I was really young, I don't even remember hearing about it to be honest. Anyway, from what I have read about his policies, I think I would've hated him BUT in a Democracy you don't just go around shooting PM's. Israel is not some 3rd world dictatorship. We are better than that. If most of the people didn't support him he wouldn't been brought down, eventually, just like Olmert hopefully will be.



It was shocking to see that Israelis didn't share this optimism.


It is STILL quite shocking to hear what some Israelis believe after Intifada 1 & 2, after Camp David, etc. Some Israelis (even on this forum) think Abu Mazen is their knight in shining armour and he "abors violence." Truly amazing. That's why I would NOT live in Israel today. Too many people are clueless and I would not leave my fate to Olmert or people who support or think like him. We have enough problems with liberals destroying America (many of them Jews). I couldn't deal with Jewish liberals trying to destroy Israel.

[KettleWhistle]

The Altalena was a ship that the Irgun (with Begin in charge) arranged to bring to Israel with ammunition and Holocaust survivors. Ben Gurion had the ship shelled to show he was boss and to show that he and the IDF were in charge of Israel, not Begin or the Irgun or any other milita. It was important that there be one army, mainly the IDF. [/URL]
That's not really true. Begin agreed to fully incorporate Irgun into the IDF. Ben Gurion ordered shelling of the ship in order to suppress the political opposition. This action sufficiently intimidated Begin, and denied him and his political allies their proper appointments within the political system. That's essentially why there was an uninterrupted leftist rule in Israel until the rise of the Likud.

Here's a much better account of what happened than that provided by Wikipedia: [url]http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena)

[KettleWhistle]

Well when Rabin was shot I was really young, I don't even remember hearing about it to be honest. Anyway, from what I have read about his policies, I think I would've hated him BUT in a Democracy you don't just go around shooting PM's. Israel is not some 3rd world dictatorship. We are better than that. If most of the people didn't support him he wouldn't been brought down, eventually, just like Olmert hopefully will be.
Well, I remember it very vividly. And I remember the time before Olso, when you could travel to Jericho on an Egged bus. When there were no "Palestinian gunmen." Or when you could go to Gaza and have a cup of coffee in a cafe. It wasn't much different than going to Tiberias and camping on the shores of Kineret.

But that's aside the point. The thing is, there is no effective way the citizenry can recall the government. There is no recall process, like for example in California. So talking about Democracy, Oslo wasn't even put on a national refferendum for a democratic vote. And then there was intimidation of the opposition, politization of the press. There really wasn't much that people could do to stop it.

So my question still stands, what in your opinion would justify a political assasination of an Israeli PM? Or do you believe that there is absolutely no line one can cross?


It is STILL quite shocking to hear what some Israelis believe after Intifada 1 & 2, after Camp David, etc. Some Israelis (even on this forum) think Abu Mazen is their knight in shining armour and he "abors violence." Truly amazing. That's why I would NOT live in Israel today. Too many people are clueless and I would not leave my fate to Olmert or people who support or think like him. We have enough problems with liberals destroying America (many of them Jews). I couldn't deal with Jewish liberals trying to destroy Israel.
An aquitenance of mine was in Lebanon during the recent war. He was telling me that the troops went there, and were not allowed to engage the enemy while the Hizbollah was firing RPGs at them. He seen soldiers who haven't fired a single bullet die like that. And he feels that the government betrayed him. To quote him almost verbatim, he wished to leave the country, but just didn't have anywhere to go.

What amazed me is the fact that he actually had trust in the government to begin with.

[Mil]

Posted by Yala:


It is STILL quite shocking to hear what some Israelis believe after Intifada 1 & 2, after Camp David, etc. Some Israelis (even on this forum) think Abu Mazen is their knight in shining armour and he "abors violence."

As if you are an Israeli. They live there - you don't.

Truly amazing. That's why I would NOT live in Israel today. Too many people are clueless and I would not leave my fate to Olmert or people who support or think like him. We have enough problems with liberals destroying America (many of them Jews). I couldn't deal with Jewish liberals trying to destroy Israel.

:) Liberalism has nothing to do with it; if anything I wouldn't call Olmert, Rabin or even Sharon liberals. This mostly has to do with political realities on the ground.

[Yala]

Well, I remember it very vividly. And I remember the time before Olso, when you could travel to Jericho on an Egged bus. When there were no "Palestinian gunmen." Or when you could go to Gaza and have a cup of coffee in a cafe. It wasn't much different than going to Tiberias and camping on the shores of Kineret.


Yes, I've heard that from my uncles. Listen, Oslo was a suicidal disaster and the main problem is that the architects of it are still in charge instead of being shunned or in jail. This is a major problem. On another note, I believe two of the main women of the Four Mothers campain wrote op-eds in Israeli papers. 1 still supported it and stuck up for her position!!! The other totally admitted she made a mistake. I had so much respect for that lady! If we can admit that things were suicidal and a mistake we can move forward. If we insist that Oslo was good for Israel and we should continue then there are HUGE problems. And I believe people like Beilin still think it was a good idea.




But that's aside the point. The thing is, there is no effective way the citizenry can recall the government. There is no recall process, like for example in California. So talking about Democracy, Oslo wasn't even put on a national refferendum for a democratic vote. And then there was intimidation of the opposition, politization of the press. There really wasn't much that people could do to stop it.

OK, then people need to MAKE it happen. Make it more like California. This will take a lot of work but there are surely people who would support it. True, the press is left wing. It's like that everywhere and there's not much you can do about that.





So my question still stands, what in your opinion would justify a political assasination of an Israeli PM? Or do you believe that there is absolutely no line one can cross?



Well I never really thought about it but I think if a PM allowed the right of return and signed a treaty to make it happen he could be taken out.



An aquitenance of mine was in Lebanon during the recent war. He was telling me that the troops went there, and were not allowed to engage the enemy while the Hizbollah was firing RPGs at them. He seen soldiers who haven't fired a single bullet die like that. And he feels that the government betrayed him. To quote him almost verbatim, he wished to leave the country, but just didn't have anywhere to go.

I would NOT live in an Israel run by Olmert. It is so plain to see that he is a danger. American Jews DESPISE him. For example, I was at the Israeli Day Parade in NYC and there were so many signs against Olmert and people marching were cheering the signs like you wouldn't believe. I have NEVER seen this before in my life and I have been to the parade over 10 times. Now he is PM and only 7% of the people support him. And nobody is taking the the streets only the reservists? And he only allowed some half investigation of the Lebanon war? This is disgusting why are people not taking to the streets in the millions???

[Yala]

Posted by Yala:
As if you are an Israeli. They live there - you don't.


I don't live there but my family does and they built it from the ground up. And they share my views and have shaped them to some extent. Maybe if a qassam landed in your neighborhood you would feel the same way they do.

Besides that you don't think people in other countries have opinions and try to have a say in my country's policies? Please.




Liberalism has nothing to do with it; if anything I wouldn't call Olmert, Rabin or even Sharon liberals. This mostly has to do with political realities on the ground.

I still have respect for Sharon. Olmert is an opportunist, not a liberal.

[Mil]

If I was PM of Israel I would have not behaved any differently from Olmert. As to the American Jews, why care. They are Americans not Israeli.

[Yala]

If I was PM of Israel I would have not behaved any differently from Olmert.

In regards to what? The Lebanon war? Are you serious? After the war he has 7% of the country's support and you think he "behaved" correctly?



As to the American Jews, why care. They are Americans not Israeli.


Duh b/c they need our money and our political support. Besides, they need and want American Jews to make aliyah. Believe me, they care.

[sharonbn]

In regards to what? The Lebanon war? Are you serious? After the war he has 7% of the country's support and you think he "behaved" correctly?
Everyone is soooo smart in afterthought



Duh b/c they need our money and our political support. Besides, they need and want American Jews to make aliyah. Believe me, they care.
yes that's true. Us Israelis (even the leftist liberal scum) want each and every Jew to make aliyah to our national homeland.
However, upon arrival, you're gonna have to sign a waiver not to kill any prime minster, even if they sign peace treaties. so think before you come....

[Mediocrates]

When they pry my toasted bagel from my cold dead hand....:mad:

[Mil]

In regards to what? The Lebanon war? Are you serious? After the war he has 7% of the country's support and you think he "behaved" correctly?

We are Jews for nothing - we complain even if there is absolutely nothing to complain about. Levi Eshkol lost the very first election after the 6 Day War, for example. Golda Meir resigned after the October war even though the destruction of the enemy and the performance of the IDF in pure military terms over-shadowed anything that took place in 67.

I personally believe no matter the PM of Israel all would have behaved exactly the same at conducting the war with Hizbullah. I personally believe Israel achieved almost 100% success in the war. Hizbullah is done for.

Duh b/c they need our money and our political support.

So patronizing - God forbid.

Besides, they need and want American Jews to make aliyah. Believe me, they care.

I somehow don't see too many American Jews making aliyahs. Most who come are of a religious background - something that Israel has already enough of.

[Yala]

"As to the American Jews, why care. They are Americans not Israeli."

The point is we as Jews worldwide are connected whether we like it or not. What happens in Israel affects US and what happens to us affects THEM. So of course they care what we think and we care what they think. Why the hell do you think we're all on this forum talking to each other?

Read this article, it will put things into perspective:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3255039,00.html

[Mil]

The point is we as Jews worldwide are connected whether we like it or not. What happens in Israel affects US and what happens to us affects THEM. So of course they care what we think and we care what they think. Why the hell do you think we're all on this forum talking to each other?

Please don't act on my sences of "patriotism" or make me any more nationalistic then I already am.

I personally do not live in Israel, am not planning to live in Israel, never served in the Israeli Army, don't pay Israeli taxes, don't vote in Israeli elections, do not speak Hebrew/Yiddish and in general care less for Judaism outside of its cultural aspects. For all intentive purposes I consider myself a secular Jewish American.

Most of who come to this forum are Jews who care for Israel, which I do. However, my opinion counts a lot less then that of an actual Israeli on this forum. Us and them are different people, if only of the same ethnic group.

[The Israeli Guy]

Hey Israeli Guy. I know YOU didn't condone any of those thiings but there are others on here who do. I was trying to let you know what kind of "right winger" I am, that's all. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes I did condone the things you are talking about and you didn't answer my question:

Where did I say that I justify the murder of Rabin? Where did I say that I justify Altalena, I don't even know what was on Altalena. Where did I praise the killing of a PM? Where did I call for assassinate Olmert? Why are you putting inside my mouth words that I didn't say??

Who the hell is you to accuse me of supporting the murder of Rabin? Sitting in your small dumpster in America and preaching us?

You little cheeky!

[Yala]

Yes I did condone the things you are talking about and you didn't answer my question:

Where did I say that I justify the murder of Rabin? Where did I say that I justify Altalena, I don't even know what was on Altalena. Where did I praise the killing of a PM? Where did I call for assassinate Olmert? Why are you putting inside my mouth words that I didn't say??

Who the hell is you to accuse me of supporting the murder of Rabin? Sitting in your small dumpster in America and preaching us?

You little cheeky!

Oh boy. Israeli Guy you don't understand the meaning of the word "condone". You are mistaking it for "condemn". I was saying I know you DID NOT say you allow or support(condone) those things. I was saying I don't support those things either and that I AGREE with you. And I apologized to you if I wasn't communicating well to you, but you still want to insult. And America is a small dumpster? Ok if you say so....

Talk about lost in translation...

And for the record I DO NOT and never did condone(allow or support) the murder of Rabin. 3 times people on here accused me of it and it is making me sick. I would never even think of it.

[Yala]

Please don't act on my sences of "patriotism" or make me any more nationalistic then I already am.


I really could care less how patriotic you are. I only care about how patriotic I am.



I personally do not live in Israel, am not planning to live in Israel, never served in the Israeli Army, don't pay Israeli taxes, don't vote in Israeli elections, do not speak Hebrew/Yiddish and in general care less for Judaism outside of its cultural aspects. For all intentive purposes I consider myself a secular Jewish American.


OK, well I do speak Hebrew & some Yiddish, do pay some Israeli taxes, would like very much to live in Israel one day and care very much for Judaism even though I am not Orthodox. But what does that have to do with anything? Are we doing a survey?




Most of who come to this forum are Jews who care for Israel, which I do. However, my opinion counts a lot less then that of an actual Israeli on this forum. Us and them are different people, if only of the same ethnic group.

Well I disagree. Some people here are married to Israelis. Some people here have a lot of family in Israel. So maybe some people are more connected than you are. I don't consider us different, I consider us the same. And that's my opinion. You are entitled to yours. But remember, it's just that - an opinion.

[The Israeli Guy]

Oh boy. Israeli Guy you don't understand the meaning of the word "condone". You are mistaking it for "condemn". I was saying I know you DID NOT say you allow or support(condone) those things. I was saying I don't support those things either and that I AGREE with you. And I apologized to you if I wasn't communicating well to you,
:)


but you still want to insult.
:confused:


And America is a small dumpster? Ok if you say so....
I never said that America is a dumpster but only your place is a dumpster. ;)
You should know the Israeli guy by now, Yala. He is tough from the outside but soft, warm and gentle from the inside. ;-)



And for the record I DO NOT and never did condone(allow or support) the murder of Rabin. 3 times people on here accused me of it and it is making me sick. I would never even think of it.
"If 3 people accuse you for being drunk then go to sleep". ;-)

[Yala]

Lots of dumpsters in California ;) I know the Israeli guy and the attitude all too well, I married one, so believe me I know. Anyway glad we cleared that up. :)