View Full Version : New Israeli law allows "Jews only" urban communities
sharonbn
07-09-2002, 06:31 AM
The government decided on Sunday, July 7th, to support a private law proposal that allows the allocation of land for the development of “Jews only” urban communities. The proposal is designed to bypass earlier supreme court ruling on the subject.
More than two years ago, The Israeli supreme court ruled that the state cannot discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens in matters of land allocation for housing. The court accepted the appeal of an Arab-Israeli couple that requested to be accepted into the urban community “Katzir” that was founded by the Jewish Agency.
In a response to the above decision, KM Haim Drukman of the Mafdal party, drafted a law proposition that will allow the Jewish Agency and the governmental “land administrate” to bypass the supreme court’s ruling. The proposition allows allocation of land for the development of urban communities restricted for Jews only.
The proposition was signed by half the members of the Knesset, including Ariel Sharon and Moshe Katzav, then KMs in the opposition.
The government first discussed the law proposal on December 2001 and decided to support it. The decision was overturned three weeks later, because of minister Dan Meridor’s campaign against the proposal.
Recently, Education minister Limor Livnat has brought the proposition once again to the table. On a vote that took place last Sunday, 17 ministers supported the proposition. Ministers Meridor and Sné opposed the proposition. Sné left the meeting in protest.
Foreign affairs minister Peres, who was unable to attend the meeting, attacked the proposition and its support and promised that he and the Labour party will fight “this racist decision”. Ministers Meridor and Sné also declared the proposition as having signs of “blatant national racism”.
Haim Drukman, the initiator of the law proposition, expressed his satisfaction from the support he received from the government: “This is a decision that will strengthen the Zionist character of the state of Israel and will encourage Jewish emigration. The proposition is required to correct the distortion created by the ruling of the supreme court, that land cannot be allocated for Jews in the Jewish land.”
Education minister Livnat stated that “The vote in the government was a triumph for those who support Israel as a Jewish Zionist democratic state on those who view Israel as the state of all its citizens.”
* translated from YNET article by Diana Bahor and Smadar Shmueli
Does this law apply to new communities (to be founded in the future) only or will it result in the displacement of non-Jews in currently existing communities too?
sharonbn
07-09-2002, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Vic
Does this law apply to new communities (to be founded in the future) only or will it result in the displacement of non-Jews in currently existing communities too?
to the best of my knowledge, the law will only apply for future communities, so we won't see "mini-transfers" all over the country.
Lets not forget the new law is still in proposal state. It requires thre votes in the Knesset (like all laws) to be accepted and enforced. However, with the current overwhelming support in the Knesset, I fear it will become a reality soon enough.
Yet another symptom of the degrading morality of the Israeli society...
Maybe the positive side will be the overall long-term result "on the ground". Provided that there will be no direct or indirect pressures, economic or otherwise, to move into such places - well, if someone wants to live in a self-imposed ghetto of Jewish purity, let him. This could easily make other parts of the country more inhabitable. All you need is just another charity program to assist those who'll want to get out of such communities. Sorry for being so cynical, I'm just a bit traumatized by the German version of what I call fetishist Judaism.
I remember a proposal made or advanced by Yoram Kaniuk about five years ago to create two Jewish states, a religious and a secular one. Could this be an (unintended?) first step towards it?
Mediocrates
07-09-2002, 08:00 AM
Are there any covenants on the land or land sale that prohibits resale to non Jews. Are there any restrictions on where purchase financing originates? Is there any encumberance on the title? If not then there is little to stop Israeli Jews from selling the land to Palistinians or anyone else. I for one would much rather see the land pass through Israel Jewish citizens then from Palistinians to the Israeli government directly? Why? Because otherwise I think it places an unfair burden on Israel citizens to come up with the purchase money whereas from Palistinians no one would look too hard where the money is coming from. I would hate to see Iraqi martyrdollars going to buy out tracts of Israeli land directly.
Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think it places an unfair burden on Israel citizens to come up with the purchase money whereas from Palistinians no one would look too hard where the money is coming from. I would hate to see Iraqi martyrdollars going to buy out tracts of Israeli land directly. Is there any indication that this is happening now?
cerulean
07-09-2002, 08:27 AM
One of the articles suggested that Israeli Arabs are buying the land in question for twice what it is objectively considered to be worth, but this idea is rejected by the Arab monitoring committee.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787728959
...
His comments were echoed by Katzir-Harish local council head Dubi Sanderov, who said some residents had been offered twice as much as their homes were worth if they sold them to Arabs.
"We are seeing activities by the (Muslim fundamentalist) Islamic Movement to try purchase homes in Harish and offer twice as much as the market price for houses," said Sanderov.
"A dunam of land in a village near here costs around $ 1,000 and I ask myself why people want to come to Katzir and are prepared to pay $80,000 (for a similar-sized plot) and then afterwards petition the Supreme Court," he said.
Shawki Hatib, head of the Israeli Arab leadership's monitoring committee, rejected the claims that Arabs were trying to buy out Jews. He stressed that the committee, composed of Arab MKs, council heads, and prominent public figures, barely had sufficient funds to pay the salary of a clerk and certainly not enough to buy homes.
...
NewsGuy
07-09-2002, 08:33 AM
I would be very surprised if the proposal will actually pass the requirements to become law.
More than anything, it is a lesson to Israel's MKs, to take their job more seriously and stick around until the full session of Knesset is officially over, so they will be present for all votes.
But it raises a more fundamental question that needs to be resolved, which is that for Israel to remain a Jewish state, as provided under international law, there need to be legal measures taken by Israel's supreme court to ensure that outcome.
As we all know, already Israel is has nearly a third of its citizens who are non-Jews, and the rate of population growth is much higher among Arabs than among Jews. Unless legislated, Israel will lose its Jewish character in less than 50 years.
Laws that favor Jews living in the Jewish homeland are not "racist." They are in accordance with international law -- specifically UN Resolution 181.
Some questions in retrospect:Originally posted by sharonbn
Education minister Livnat stated that “The vote in the government was a triumph for those who support Israel as a Jewish Zionist democratic state on those who view Israel as the state of all its citizens.”I'm not quite informed on the details, but isn't it the same Livnat who pushed for reforms of the higher education system much criticized from some quarters for offering considerable benefits for non-Jewish students (from lower income families?)?Originally posted by Mediocrates
...whereas from Palistinians no one would look too hard where the money is coming from. I would hate to see Iraqi martyrdollars going to buy out tracts of Israeli land directly.Can non-nationals (whose income sources are completely outside of any Israeli control) purchase land in Israel?
I'm not an expert on the Israeli fiscal system, but in my part of the world anyone making real estate purchases can be certain of drawing serious if discreet attention of the fiscal authorities - and face tough questioning should doubts about income sources arise. I understand that real estate is quite expensive in Israel as related to the average income, especially among the Israeli Arabs. Is it really possible to smuggle such sums through tax declarations on a significant scale? All of this makes sense of course only if land purchase is generally limited to Israeli citizens.Originally posted by NewsGuy
But it raises a more fundamental question that needs to be resolved, which is that for Israel to remain a Jewish state, as provided under international law, there need to be legal measures taken by Israel's supreme court to ensure that outcome.
As we all know, already Israel is has nearly a third of its citizens who are non-Jews, and the rate of population growth is much higher among Arabs than among Jews. Unless legislated, Israel will lose its Jewish character in less than 50 years.
Laws that favor Jews living in the Jewish homeland are not "racist." They are in accordance with international law -- specifically UN Resolution 181.I see a difference between preserving the Jewish majority as such, which quite pragmatically neccessitates large-scale Jewish land ownership, and what I percieve as the psychological undercurrent of this law: the wish not to "contamine" Jewishness by spatial proximity to non-Jews, whoever they may be (this law excludes, if I understand it correctly, not just the Israeli Arabs, viewed as potentially dangerous in their expansionism, but also the "non-Halachic" Jews etc.). This somewhat hysterical evasion of any contact with non-Jews is quite familiar to me. Aren't stringent tax controls on their own enough to prevent any large-scale land purchases financed from dubious sources? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Mediocrates
07-10-2002, 04:29 AM
Again though it is vitally important to understand that they're not talking about vegetable gardens. Most of the West Bank is large blank rolling brown grey expanses of scrubby nothing. You could stand almost anywhere and plunk down a city of 15,000 thousand and not notice.
Does land ownership in the territories fall under the same formal regulations?
Some background from today's Ha'aretz and (of course) a sharp attack on the new law:
Unnecessary law, deliberate provocation
By Danny Rabinowitz
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185007&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
NewsGuy
07-10-2002, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Vic
...what I percieve as the psychological undercurrent of this law: the wish not to "contamine" Jewishness by spatial proximity to non-Jews, whoever they may be...
I don't think there is a "psychological undercurrent," and especially not avoidance of proximity to non-Jews. In fact, tiny Israel is surrounded on three sides by dozens Muslim countries and there are Palestinian Muslims living inside Israel and within pockets all over Israel.
The new proposal deals with allocation of land for urban development that is currently not populated by anyone, and it restricts this new distribution to Jews, but it does not affect proximity to non-Jews at all. For example if there are Arabs living on the perimeter of the land, they would live side-by-side with the Jewish residents.
Aren't stringent tax controls on their own enough to prevent any large-scale land purchases financed from dubious sources?
I'm not sure what you mean.
NewsGuy
07-10-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Vic
Unnecessary law, deliberate provocation
By Danny Rabinowitz
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185007&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Good link for the discussion.
Danny Rabinowitz writes "If accepted by the Knesset, this law will bring Israel closer than it has ever been to an apartheid state." I think that this is a big mistake.
Danny does not recall that (or chooses not to mention) that nearly 1/3 of Israel's population is already non-Jewish, and that Arabs pervade all of Israel. The lands under discussion, which are not even populated by anyone at the moment would have no effect on the huge population of Arabs living in Israel.
As for "Apartheaid," it is a dirty word which is applied to a concept which is completely inapplicable to Israel under international law. UN Resolution 181 provides an explicit determination by the UN that Israel is to be a Jewish state. By Jewish, it means that the UN mandate calls for a system under which Israel is to retain a Jewish majority. As it turns out, Israel will have to enact laws to exclude the population explosion and takeover of Jewish land by Arabs. Otherwise, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish land (which is the express goal of the Arabs), and such an outcome would be in violation of international law.
Even if this concept of laws which favor the Jewish population of Israel does not measure up to Danny Rabinowitz' sense of extreme (and misguided) liberalism, he needs to go back to study the international law which mandates this proposal for a law.
Mediocrates
07-10-2002, 11:27 AM
Again, there apparently is nothing to prevent resale/reuse so if the government was to dispose of state held trust land in any way they see fit then there is no harm. Is there anything to prevent non Jews from hiring a Jewish transfer agent for the title flip? I see the flap over this more smoke and chemicals than anything else. What about leasebacks? Flip the title to non Jew and lease it back to a Jewish tenant. I think this is more an aspect of fear and ignorance about how complex land deals can be constructed.
The problem really is that once the land leaves Jewish hands it's gone forever. You know it is.
Mediocrates
07-10-2002, 11:33 AM
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Aren't stringent tax controls on their own enough to prevent any large-scale land purchases financed from dubious sources?
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Not tax laws but some vetting process to validate the funds jsut like verification for a mortagage except more involved. Keep in mind that if your average person walks up with 3.3 million cash it's pretty damn suspicious. And if that same person walks in with a 3.3 mortgage or promissary note it looks equally strange. What you don't want to occur is that the First Bank of Exploding Clothing is funding the buyouts with zero interest loans that don't have to be paid back.
Originally posted by NewsGuy
I'm not sure what you mean. It is more guessing on my part, of course, maybe you can provide the details. I was responding to Mediocrates' post (#5). He fears that land purchase in Israel could be financed from outside (Iraq etc.) on large scale.
As I wrote, I do not know the exact details neither of the Israeli laws on land and real estate ownership nor of the Israeli fiscal system. Many countries reduce the right to own land and/or real estate to their citizens only.
Should Israel have similar regulations, it would mean that prospective land/real estate owners are under the control of the Israeli fiscal system or can be put under it this way or other (for example, Israeli citizens residing outside of Israel could be required to declare their income sources prior to land purchase and entitle the Israeli authorities to check them in the respective countries). Assuming that land/real estate is expensive and can be afforded only by a certain segment of the population, and that all transactions connected to it are well documented and maybe even stored in a central database, it shouldn't be too difficult to check the tax declarations of the byers for inconsistencies. In my part of the world it is almost routine by now, since it takes a very high income level to smuggle such sums through a normal tax declaration - or criminal connections.
I understand that Israeli Arabs have a much lower (legal) average income than the rest of the population. If true, there would be few suitable candidates for the role of straw men for Iraq, al Qaeda & Co., especially given the risk. Of course in some cases they may come away with it, but if the above assumptions are correct, massive land/real estate purchase by Arabs would hardly go unnoticed (with Israel's size anyway ;)), and can be controlled by laws and procedures that do not target any specific population group just as well.
(Just reloaded the page and noticed Mediocrates's last post. He says much the same only shorter :o)
As for the Jewish/non-Jewish issue, I'm thinking of a discussion in another thread. I submit that a person with three Jewish grandparents yet lacking the crucial maternal grandmother doesn't pose an immediate threat for Israel's security, even if he/she doesn't go through the whole process of Orthodox conversion. This law is apparently (Sharon's post #3) about new urban communities, neither about land/real estate ownership in existing population centers (i.e. relatively small areas), nor about agricultural land. Should it be implemented, the result would be "purely" Halachic Jewish communities (I suppose permitting residence of "non-Jewish" family members), clearly declared as such. In absence of economic attractions (extraordinarily low prices, exceptional financing schemes etc.) the main motivation for moving into such communities is likely to be ideological.
As I wrote, I have often encountered a greatly exaggerated, irrational fear of contact with non-Jewish surroundings, common, it seems, among Jews of Eastern European background. Worse still, such people tend to make themselves perfect nuisances by imposing their habits on others. I can well imagine that it will be people of this type who will flock in the new communities, leaving the inhabitants of other parts of the country to themselves. Even if they'll have to leave Arabs somewhere on the outskirts, at least they will have Halachic Jews only to their immediate left and right or on their apartment block.
Come to think of it, has anyone actually considered the downside of this law, that it would actually reduce the proportion of Jews in existing communities, should it be implemented on a large scale?
Originally posted by Mediocrates
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Aren't stringent tax controls on their own enough to prevent any large-scale land purchases financed from dubious sources?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not tax laws but some vetting process to validate the funds jsut like verification for a mortagage except more involved. Keep in mind that if your average person walks up with 3.3 million cash it's pretty damn suspicious. And if that same person walks in with a 3.3 mortgage or promissary note it looks equally strange. What you don't want to occur is that the First Bank of Exploding Clothing is funding the buyouts with zero interest loans that don't have to be paid back. The beauty of control using tax declaration as a starting point, as practiced around here, is that it places the burden of proof on the taxpayer: if doubts arise, he is the one who has to disclose full information on his income sources (= prove that they are legal). Of course it becomes too much of a good thing at times, overzealous bureaucrats etc., yet it did help to crush several serious money laundering schemes.
Mediocrates
07-10-2002, 04:00 PM
That's interesting - use the tax rolls as a proxy for income verification, yes? Do you have large escrow requirements? Do you have residency requirements?
Originally posted by Mediocrates
That's interesting - use the tax rolls as a proxy for income verification, yes?Exactly. The easiest thing to use without causing unneccessary distress ;) Most of the time the person in question won't even realize it. Yet it is common knowledge, probably floated on purpose, that anyone involved in sizeable and documented financial transaction can count with an unobtrusive check of his tax declarations - for years back. Such are the wonders of modern information techology.Do you have large escrow requirements? Do you have residency requirements? Requirements for what?
Summing this up...Originally posted by sharonbn
Yet another symptom of the degrading morality of the Israeli society... Less of the morality as of the capability of good judgement? The law won't achieve what it supposedly is inteded for. Its declared aims would be better served by regulations neutral in regard to various population groups inside Israel and tight controls. I beg anyone to provide more details and to disprove me on this.
Plus...
Poll: most Israeli Jews back proposed 'Jews-only' land law
By Ha'aretz Service...
The opinion survey showed that only a third of Israeli Jews, most of them leftist in political orientation, said they were willing to have Arabs living as their neighbors.
The poll also showed that most Israeli Jews are opposed to Israeli Arabs moving in to their apartment buildings. Only a quarter of the Jews responding said that they were unopposed.
A majority of the Jewish respondents said they were unwilling to rent an apartment to an Israeli Arab.
...
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185730&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0 Would it be fair to say that both this law and the controversy around it are driven by emotions rather than hard facts?
Mediocrates
07-11-2002, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Vic
Requirements for what?
For commercial or non commercial land or real estate purchases or title holding? Do you know if escrow has to be held in-country?
Morpheus
07-11-2002, 05:02 AM
Well, here's the evidence: zionism IS racism. israel is just another country run by fundamentalists, who place religion above democracy. Sad that this has to happen. I tried to have more sympathy for Israel, but that does it.
Originally posted by Morpheus
Well, here's the evidence: zionism IS racism. israel is just another country run by fundamentalists, who place religion above democracy. Sad that this has to happen. I tried to have more sympathy for Israel, but that does it. How bright of you. This is exactly what the discussion is for.
Morpheus
07-11-2002, 05:14 AM
I just jumped in. Anyway, why should we even discuss it. I mean, the article was very clear. :( A new form of Apartheid.
BTW, are you ashamed of living in Europe? East of the Atlantic?
Mediocrates
07-11-2002, 05:30 AM
And another myth is born. The ruling has actually been pulled back. But I'm sure it will become another thing all jihadists all over the world will point to and say 'See? See? I told you.'
It's amazing really in a transparent society that actually has a free discourse how things take on a mythical life of their own.
Can you picture the meetings and discussions held in Ramallah about who they execute for selling land to Jews? Maybe they had a referendum?
And Morph - I tried to have more sympathy for Israel
uh huh. yeah. We call that rhetoric.
Originally posted by Morpheus
BTW, are you ashamed of living in Europe? East of the Atlantic? Before someone decides to continue the discussion:
I'm for accuracy - and against posting full CVs on the internet :D
Originally posted by Morpheus
Well, here's the evidence: zionism IS racism. israel is just another country run by fundamentalists, who place religion above democracy. Sad that this has to happen. I tried to have more sympathy for Israel, but that does it. Cool, I'm racist and I didn't even know it. Give me a break. One cannot read not even one thread that there's allways someone posting BS! :mad: Do me a favour will you? Don't put your "conclusions" ahead of your arguments. Oh sorry, it seems that there are no arguments for that, are there? It's a fact, an evidence. :rolleyes: And if there is an "Apartheid"? What's the cause for that? The evil zionists' racial ideals or the amazing friendlyness of the arabs?
More background on the land issue:
Democracy (is not) above existence
By Israel Harel
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185461&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
...
The ILA estimates that some 600,000 dunams (150,000 acres) of state land in the Negev has been lost to the Bedouin in recent years. No one in the political establishment, including the prime minister, who is well-acquainted with the problem, has the courage to deal with the problem. The situation is similar, though not to the same extent, in the Galilee and the Triangle of Arab towns near Netanya.
On the face of it, the government decision to allocate state lands to Jews is problematic and outrages one's natural sense of justice. It is perhaps good that the spontaneous reaction, mainly in the media and the justice system, was (very) critical. Even if the government's legal claims (the Cooperative Association's Law) are correct, the decision is discriminatory. Even so, it is not, and by definition cannot be, racist. Racism exists on a background that cannot change. If the Arabs (more than a few of whom, especially in the Hebron Hills region, are of Jewish decent) were, for example, to convert to Judaism, the law's initiator, Rabbi Haim Druckman, would surely welcome them into the ranks of the Jewish people and into its settlements with open arms. Jews, in general, are not racist.
The decision, then, is the result of fears and suspicions that the land is literally slipping out from under our feet. The state comptroller even expands on this in his 2000 report: The Arabs of Judea and Samaria have seized control of 3,350 dunams of state land. He also warns against "expansion trends into state lands." ILA officials even admit that the situation is actually much worse. Nationalistic forces in Arab villages in the Galilee and the Triangle have taken control of state lands, even ones that were zoned for public buildings, and are treating them as if they owned them. Even when there is a court order to evacuate Arabs in the Triangle or in the Galilee, the police hardly ever enforce it, among other reasons due to the appearance of the foreign media recruited by Jewish organizations, which automatically align themselves with the Arab nationalists, despite the court orders for an evacuation.
Even the High Court of Justice, it turns out, has complicated matters due to the inconsistency of its rulings and is confusing the justice system, among others. When a Jew requests assistance because he is not being allowed to live in Umm al-Fahm, despite the fact that it is a town and not a community settlement, he is dismissed out of hand. In another ruling, Supreme Court President, Justice Aharon Barak ruled that the leaders of the Bedouin village of Sejeb ("Segev Shalom") are allowed to prevent the petitioner, police officer Eliezer Avitan, from living there. Nevertheless natural justice dictated Barak's ruling regarding Harish - that it was illegal to prevent Arab citizens from purchasing land or living in a Jewish settlement.
...So it's not just a matter of money. Still, Jewish-only small new communities would hardly help.
Originally posted by Morpheus
Well, here's the evidence: zionism IS racism. israel is just another country run by fundamentalists, who place religion above democracy. Sad that this has to happen. I tried to have more sympathy for Israel, but that does it.
Evidence - nothing! It wasn't so long ago that various similar laws were on the books in various European countries, as well as US; - and some probably still haven't been expunged. Moreover, attitude such as that expressed above, is at the root of why such laws are even proposed.
Has anyone actually read the thing? Or are we simply going by what the news media are telling us?
sharonbn
07-15-2002, 06:09 AM
Follow-up: Government moves to “bury” Jewish-exclusive land law
Only a week after it voted to support the law that allows allocation of land for Jewish exclusive urban settlements, the Israeli government has decided to pass the law (once again) through “Ne’eman committee” in what was regarded as an attempt to “bury” the law.
This new step is a result of public outcry and fierce objection in the Labour party and other coalition members that came after the vote in the government.
The Ne’eman committee was established a week ago to discuss issues related to principal laws (principal laws is the closest thing Israel have to a constitution.) The committee already discussed the possible outcomes of the new law several months ago. Internal political sources estimate the step was decided in order to remove the law from the media spotlight and from the national political agenda.
Sharon, just out of curiosity in retrospect - -
would the law, should it have been implemented, have achieved what it was ostensibly proposed for? (My previous posts were based more on presumptions and guessing than on solid information)
Mediocrates
07-15-2002, 08:04 AM
I have this from Zionblogspot:
"The bill allows a quasi public agency – called the Jewish Agency – to build Jewish only communities. They do not build all the towns in Israel. They do not control 90% of the land in Israel. The Jewish Agency does receive land from the state though. The law would not effect current towns (where 100% of the people currently live). Also, when the state allocates land, it can not discriminate. Thus Arabs are not banned from living on 90% of the land. Also, there are Arab only communities."
http://www.zionblog.blogspot.com/
If this can be verified it certainly puts another spin on the issue
sharonbn
07-15-2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Vic
Sharon, just out of curiosity in retrospect - -
would the law, should it have been implemented, have achieved what it was ostensibly proposed for? (My previous posts were based more on presumptions and guessing than on solid information)
That's a hard question, as specific details of the law are scarce indeed. issues like resell, second -hand, etc. were not disclosed on te media.
sharonbn
07-15-2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Mediocrates
Also, there are Arab only communities."
Arab-only communities exist de-facto. This reality exist since Arab communities in general belng to the lower economic class in Israel and therefor their towns and cities attract no Jews.
However, there is no Law or regulation that explicitly forbids Jews from settling anywhere in Israel (or anyone else for that metter).
I woulod also like to point out the existence of multi-cultural cities where Jews and Israel Arabs live side-by-side, Like Jaffa, Nazareth and Beer-Sheva that houses a Beduin community.
Mediocrates
07-15-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by sharonbn
Arab-only communities exist de-facto. This reality exist since Arab communities in general belng to the lower economic class in Israel and therefor their towns and cities attract no Jews.
I think the context of that comment was in terms of something that I read somewhere else, I can't remember where, probably Women in Green, where there are illegal arab/bedouin communities sprung up and they are treated to firm hands-off policy by the Israeli government.
NewsGuy
07-15-2002, 09:09 AM
Yes, this proposal was now buried because this happens to be a pivotal issue for voters and Sharon is wise to avoid a large-scale confrontation at this particular moment in time.
Still, the problem remains of how to keep Israel as a Jewish state, considering its Arab population is increasing at a much faster rate than the Jewish population.
Adversary2Arabs
08-23-2002, 05:40 PM
There shouldn't be Jewish neighborhoods, only Arab ones. They should also be called settlements within Israel.
Haifa
08-23-2002, 11:08 PM
hmm Adversay2Arabs. Yes, calling arab towns settlments is a good idea. But this would mean annexing them to the new palestinian state the same way israel wants jewish settlments annexed to Israel.
Originally posted by Haifa
hmm Adversay2Arabs. Yes, calling arab towns settlments is a good idea. But this would mean annexing them to the new palestinian state the same way israel wants jewish settlments annexed to Israel.
I think there is a majority in Israel that would be happy to include Um-El-Fahem and Tira, for example, in the new palestinian state(There is also a territorial continunity). Because of the cooperation a minoriy of the Arab Israeli population have with the Palestinian terror organizations.
Actually, I think it was Efrayim Sne (Labor Party Minister) which suggested it once. The problem is the Israeli Arabs living there OBJECT THE IDEA. they want to stay a part of Israel!!!
In Fact, in one Talk Show he suggested the Idea, and Arabs that were on the talk show objected it. and many Arabs called the show to object the idea.
Why? What about all the things (Propoganda) I hear about the Arabs citizens being treated poorly by Israel, you ask?
Well, I think they just like the freedom of democracy and freedom of speech, the non-corrupted goverments, the advance way of living and so on.
Things they will not find in any other Arab country. and certainely not in a palestinian state led by the current leaders.
Mediocrates
08-24-2002, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Haifa
hmm Adversay2Arabs. Yes, calling arab towns settlments is a good idea. But this would mean annexing them to the new palestinian state the same way israel wants jewish settlments annexed to Israel.
First you need a country, then you can pretend that Israel is Sudetenland. Until then you have nothing.
Mediocrates
08-24-2002, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Haifa
hmm Adversay2Arabs. Yes, calling arab towns settlments is a good idea. But this would mean annexing them to the new palestinian state the same way israel wants jewish settlments annexed to Israel.
I think the only long term solution is to insure that all Jewish suburbs are geographically contiguous to the rest of Israel. I believe that whomever funds the PA should pay for the repatriation of Jews to neighborhoods closer to the rest of Israel and that Israel should probably slowly pull back from indefensible forward positions deep within Yesha while expanding and developing those neighborhoods closer to Israel. The the PA can move in and desecrate to their hearts' desire and fire their AKs in the air, claim victory and whatnot.
And those new communities should be Jewish only, not only as residences but as work areas as well, as a buffer between Palistan and Israel. A kind of permanent DMZ. I would expect that in practical terms these new neighborhoods would comprise no more than 15% of Yesha. And they should just leave the rest, abandon the infrastructure, the roads. The Arab countries should pay for this 'resettlement' as compensation for havingto start over.
Adversary2Arabs
08-24-2002, 08:26 AM
There is nothing wrong with aparthied in Israel when its for national security.
Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
There is nothing wrong with aparthied in Israel when its for national security.
No, there is something wrong with true apartheid, regardless of the reasons for it.
The question is whether what Israel is doing actually is apartheid, regardless of the accusations. IMO, it is not.
Adversary2Arabs
08-24-2002, 08:42 AM
Well it's not apartheid. But I believe if it comes down to it, aparthied should be allowed. The Arabs are bringing it upon themselves.
Mediocrates
08-24-2002, 09:25 AM
Look at it this way - the West Germans and the East Germans didn't have little Potemkin villages in each other's countries, did they? There was never any thought given to anything as silly as that. One must disabuse themself of handy hot button words like 'race' and think in terms of allies and enemies.
Djinn
04-12-2007, 10:22 AM
Offhand, I'd have to disapprove. Whether you're restricting the land to those of Jewish ancestry, or faith, or some combination of the two, you'll find so many gradients in between that such distinctions become meaningless. I'm of Jewish ancestry, but I'm a professed atheist. You've got mixed-marriages, all manner of ancestral relations... the list is endless.
Besides, there are enough people already comparing Israel's practices to apartheid - I see no reason to bolster such comparisons.
Womble
04-12-2007, 11:40 AM
Offhand, I'd have to disapprove. Whether you're restricting the land to those of Jewish ancestry, or faith, or some combination of the two, you'll find so many gradients in between that such distinctions become meaningless. I'm of Jewish ancestry, but I'm a professed atheist. You've got mixed-marriages, all manner of ancestral relations... the list is endless.
Besides, there are enough people already comparing Israel's practices to apartheid - I see no reason to bolster such comparisons.
Offhand, I have to call you a gravedigger. This thread has been dead since 2002, for crying out loud.
Djinn
04-12-2007, 08:42 PM
Offhand, I have to call you a gravedigger. This thread has been dead since 2002, for crying out loud.
My mistake... I didn't notice the date. And for reasons unknown, this thread was listed when I clicked the "New Posts" link. I assure you that I didn't go through pages of posts to find this. I'll double-check the dates from now on, but I'm not sure what caused it to appear on page one of a "New Posts" search.
The Israeli Guy
04-27-2007, 07:26 AM
The government decided on Sunday, July 7th, to support a private law proposal that allows the allocation of land for the development of “Jews only” urban communities. The proposal is designed to bypass earlier supreme court ruling on the subject.
More than two years ago, The Israeli supreme court ruled that the state cannot discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens in matters of land allocation for housing. The court accepted the appeal of an Arab-Israeli couple that requested to be accepted into the urban community “Katzir” that was founded by the Jewish Agency.
In a response to the above decision, KM Haim Drukman of the Mafdal party, drafted a law proposition that will allow the Jewish Agency and the governmental “land administrate” to bypass the supreme court’s ruling. The proposition allows allocation of land for the development of urban communities restricted for Jews only.
The proposition was signed by half the members of the Knesset, including Ariel Sharon and Moshe Katzav, then KMs in the opposition.
The government first discussed the law proposal on December 2001 and decided to support it. The decision was overturned three weeks later, because of minister Dan Meridor’s campaign against the proposal.
Recently, Education minister Limor Livnat has brought the proposition once again to the table. On a vote that took place last Sunday, 17 ministers supported the proposition. Ministers Meridor and Sné opposed the proposition. Sné left the meeting in protest.
Foreign affairs minister Peres, who was unable to attend the meeting, attacked the proposition and its support and promised that he and the Labour party will fight “this racist decision”. Ministers Meridor and Sné also declared the proposition as having signs of “blatant national racism”.
Haim Drukman, the initiator of the law proposition, expressed his satisfaction from the support he received from the government: “This is a decision that will strengthen the Zionist character of the state of Israel and will encourage Jewish emigration. The proposition is required to correct the distortion created by the ruling of the supreme court, that land cannot be allocated for Jews in the Jewish land.”
Education minister Livnat stated that “The vote in the government was a triumph for those who support Israel as a Jewish Zionist democratic state on those who view Israel as the state of all its citizens.”
* translated from YNET article by Diana Bahor and Smadar Shmueli
Watch the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiG4-TXDCbg)
In Halisa neighbourhood in Haifa, where Jews and Arabs live together, there was this dialog:
A Jewish resident: "Can't you see the holes of the shootings in here (in the walls)?"
A Journalist: "Who is shooting here?"
A Jewish resident: "Who is shooting here? The nice guys who live beside me, they don't want me to live here, they don't want a Jew to live here."
An Arab resident: "Not true, it's not true, don't inflate, we respect any man, becaue I'm Arab...I answer you as an Arab. What are all these stories? You racist, you racist, we respect any man whoever he is."
A Jewish resident: "They sabotage my water tank, they close the passageway when I'm driving the car, they bloke me (my car), they curse me when I pass here. There is a neighbour beside me who said: "I'll remove you from here."
An Arab resident: "In the opposite of what you say, I'll ask the Jews if they are satisfied in the neighbourhood or not."
A Jewish resident: "And what about all the firecrackers that they (Arabs) blow up in large quantities in here?"
An Arab resident: "Firecrackers, shmayercrackers, it's when there is a holiday."
A Jewish resident: "What's going on in here?"
An Arab resident: "What's going on in here? You will prevent them (from blowing the firecrackers)?"
A Jewish resident: "I am allowed to throw firecrackers? I'm also not allowed to throw them, there's no such thing."
An Arab resident: "Why not? Why not? Did you throw firecrackers and someone told you not to do that?"
A Jewish resident: "The law forbids you (and me) to do that, there are no firecrackers."
An Arab resident: "Never mind the law."
A Jewish resident: "No firecrackers."
An Arab resident: "No firecrackers? It's only what you want."
A Jewish resident: "No, it's the law."
An Arab resident: "I want firecrackers."
A Jewish resident: "No."
The holiday of the Muslims in which they fire their firecrackers is a day in which some "Allah" gave them orders to kill all Jews, and it's happening in Israel. (more)
The Israeli Guy
04-27-2007, 07:42 AM
Which Jew likes to live near holocaust deniars and Hizbullah helpers?
Here are couple of facts:
1. Almost 50 percent of Israeli Arabs justify Hizbullah's kidnapping of soldiers.
2. Some 48 percent justify the launching of rockets at Israel by Hizbullah during the last war.
3. 28 percent of Israeli Arabs did not believe the Holocaust happened.
4. Among Arab high school and college graduates the figure was even higher - 33 percent.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3378086,00.html
'28% of Israel's Arabs deny Holocaust' | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173879113692&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
Oct. 17, 2006 22:02 | Updated Oct. 18, 2006 15:27
Dichter: Israeli Arabs helped Hizbullah
By REBECCA ANNA STOIL AND JPOST STAFF
Israeli Arabs were involved in planning attacks on Israeli targets with Hizbullah and sold weapons to the guerilla organization in exchange for illegal drugs, Internal Security Minister Avi Dichter told Army Radio on Wednesday morning. Full article inside (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193464257&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
Approximately 40% of Israeli Arabs involved in terrorism were “family unification” Palestinians who were able to receive a permit to reside in Israel and a ‘blue’ identity card following their marriage to an Israeli Arab. 10 “family unification” Israeli Arabs were arrested and confessed their involvement in terrorism in 2006. Their involvement included, among other things, attempts at smuggling explosive charges into Israel and transporting weapons. Full article inside (http://www.ict.org.il/apage/9927.php)
Terror attack foiled
Cleared for publication: After car bomb driven by suicide bomber holding Israeli ID accidentally explodes in West Bank, defense forces uncover Hamas terror plot, arrest 19 members
Hanan Greenberg Published: 04.10.07, 05:23 / Israel News
A major suicide attack on Tel Aviv was prevented this Passover, as Shin Bet and IDF forces arrested 19 Hamas members in the West Bank city of Qalqilya for planning to detonate a car bomb containing some 220 lbs of explosives, it was cleared for publication on Tuesday.
Investigations revealed that a would-be suicide bomber, a holder of an Israeli ID obtained through family unification, had already reached the center of the Tel Aviv metropolitan area with the vehicle, but for unknown reasons did not carry out the attack and returned to Qalqilya, where the bomb accidentally exploded. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3386098,00.html)
Indictment: Tira resident planned terror attack in Raanana
According to indictment, 20-year-old young woman, Wurood Kassem, from Tira made connections to aid enemy in time of war after she helped organize bomb attack in Spaghetim restaurant in Ra'anana Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320725,00.html)
15 years in prison for officer convicted of espionage
Decorated Bedouin officer, who was found guilty of severe espionage, drug traf, sentenced to 15 years in Jail, to be dismissed from army
A special military court at the Kirya base in Tel Aviv sentenced on Sunday Lieutenant Colonel Omar al-Hayeb, convicted of severe espionage and contact with a Hizbullah agent, to 15 years in prison.
Al-Hayeb will be immediately dismissed from the IDF. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3264318,00.html)
Bedouin accused of spying for Hizbullah
Nazareth District Court accuses Beit Zarzir resident of transferring information to terror group on IDF soldiers' movements
First security affair during wartime: The Nazareth District Court released for publication the indictment of a Bedouin resident from the village of Beit Zarzir, charged with transferring intelligence information to Hizbullah in Lebanon.
Amakim District Police Chief Superintendent Yaakov Zigdon told Ynet that "this was a clear case of spying, during a time of war, as someone seeks to harm the security of the State of Israel." Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3289114,00.html)
2 years jail time for Hizbullah informer
Israeli-Arab sentenced to 2 year in prison for providing Hizbullah terror group with information about locations of structures, IDF base in Israel during stay in Lebanon Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3226797,00.html)
Border Guard officer charged with espionage
Operations officer indicted for allegedly handing over sensitive intelligence regarding military patrols along Egyptian border, disclosing classified technology, drug smuggling Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3386417,00.html)
Murder of 18-year-old girl solved
Over a month after her corpse was found, a 17-year-old Bedouin boy is arrested for Maayan Ben Horin's murder, attempted rape. Suspect sends letter of apology to girl's family, claiming he did not mean to kill her
Sharon Roffe-Ofir Latest Update: 02.21.07, 09:02 / Israel News
The mysterious murder of 18-year-old Maayan Ben Horin in northern Israel some 40 days ago has been solved.
An indictment was filed with the Haifa District court Wednesday morning against a 17-year old Bedouin who was arrested for the crime on February 2. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3367723,00.html)
Palestinian man murdered child
Anwar Ahdush carefully planned murder, lured eight year-old Lipaz Himi to stairwell where he raped, murdered her. Victim's mother: My girl was raped and murdered on Independence Day only because she is Jewish
Efrat Weiss Latest Update: 05.28.06, 19:55 / Israel News
Cleared for publication: Lipaz Himi, the eight year-old girl whose body was found several weeks ago in a Beit Shemesh market, was raped and murdered by a Palestinian, the police investigation revealed. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3256066,00.html)
Arabs set off fireworks after memorial siren
Residents of Haifa and Carmiel participating in Memorial Day ceremonies enraged when they hear fireworks coming from nearby Arab neighborhoods
Ahiye Raved Published: 04.22.07, 22:56 / Israel News
Northern residents were incensed when they heard the distinct sound of fireworks coming from nearby Arab communities during ceremonies for the commemoration of fallen Israeli soldiers and terror victims in honor of Memorial Day. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3391084,00.html)
Arabs in our society are cancer! Again I will say: They are cancer! And even greater persons than me said that, like Moshe Yaalon for example, Arabs in Israel define themselves as "Palestinians", they are cancer and they should be treated in the same way that cancer should be treated.
Academic: Israeli-Arabs want end of Jewish state
There is no way to accommodate demands of Israeli-Arabs, short of replacing Israel with an Arab state, says Dr. Dan Schueftan
There was no way of accommodating the demands of Israeli-Arabs, short of the destruction of Israel and its replacement with an Arab state, a senior Israeli academic told a stormy session of the Herzliya Conference Monday, held to discuss the Arab minority in Israel.
Dr. Dan Schueftan, deputy director of the National Security Studies Center at the University of Haifa, said a document recently released by Israeli- Arab leaders called for "nothing short of the destruction of Jewish national state." Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3355492,00.html)
MK Sarsur: We must act together to liberate Jerusalem
At 'Jerusalem First' conference in Ramallah, MK Ibrahim Sarsur calls on Muslims and Arabs to focus on 'liberating' Jerusalem. MK Mohammad Barakeh attacks Israel for trying to 'empty Jerusalem of its Palestinian inhabitants.' PA's top Jerusalem official: Jews have no religious or political connection to Jerusalem Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3377909,00.html)
Former Arab MK defends suicide bombings
Former Arab MK Dehamshe justifies use of Qassam rockets against Israel as means of self-defense, says suicide bombings keep Palestinian issue alive Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3272738,00.html)
Sheikh Salah calls to renew riots Saturday
Islamic Movement leader summons Muslims to Jerusalem to continue protesting construction near Temple Mount; thousands of demonstrators in Nazareth wave signs declaring ‘Israel has started world war’ Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3363096,00.html)
redcake
04-27-2007, 10:58 PM
There are some amazing Arabs who believe in the heart and soul of an Israel which is a Jewish state. They wouldn't want to live anywhere else, and they recognize and appreciate that Israel's creation has benefited them, and allowed them to prosper. I have a feeling these Arabs aren't the most vocal, becuase they just want to go about their business without getting too caught up in the conflict around them. If Israel were to lose these Arabs, and were not talking about a huge number, it would be a shame.
Likewise, there are also entire villages full of bad seeds. Some are just influenced by the constant propaganda of being told they're angry and due some great compensation...eventually they play into it.
I wish these polls were regional, so we can get a better grasp on who these people are.... Haifa residents? Arabs inherited after 1967? Old City Arabs?
I'll agree there is a huge Israel Arab problem burried in there somewhere, but Israel can remain a Jewish state with resorting to seperatism.
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