Moshe Arens: Majority isn't always right

[NewsGuy]

Following up on the forced expulsion of Jews from Gaza:

Fifteen months after the uprooting of Gush Katif, the northern Gaza Strip settlements, and settlements in northern Samaria, it seems that most people prefer not to talk about, and not even to think about, this traumatic event, at the time euphemistically misnamed disengagement. Why trouble our minds at a time when we have so many other things to worry about? And yet, how did we go so wrong?

One thing for sure - the majority is not always right. Of course examples abound in democratic societies where the majority is not always right. Numerous mistakes have been made that were backed by majority opinion.
[...]
Disengagement was advertised as a victory for democracy. Nothing less. Its proponents gave birth to a new party, throwing the entire political scene into turmoil, and in the enthusiasm of the moment getting themselves elected as the largest faction in the Knesset to lead the new coalition government. A new dawn was rising for the people of Israel, they claimed. After disengagement would come realignment, a further series of unilateral withdrawals, and the uprooting of settlements.

Well, that did not last very long. Pretty soon it became clear to the majority of Israel's citizens that unilateral withdrawals paved the road to a continuous deterioration in the security of the nation, and had given the country its most incompetent government in history.
[...]
"The disengagement will assure the existence of a democratic Jewish State." This vacuous slogan might have had some validity if the alternative to uprooting the settlements was annexing Gaza to Israel, but no one had called for this move.

"This is a significant step leading to an accommodation with the Palestinians." But the Palestinians interpreted the move as a triumph for Palestinian acts of terror, thereby encouraging a continuation of their offensive against Israel. The withdrawal only brought the Qassam rockets closer to some of Israel's population centers, and permitted large-scale arms smuggling into the Gaza Strip, creating a major security problem for Israel. Now the settlements are gone, the Qassam rockets are here on a daily basis, and the IDF engages in large-scale incursions into Gaza and fires artillery into Gaza causing many civilian casualties. It isn't easy to choose the worst aspect of this horribly mistaken move. Is it the human tragedy of the 10,000 Israelis torn from their homes? Is it the implied statement by the government of Israel that Jews do not have the right to live in those parts of the Land of Israel that may eventually not be part of the State of Israel? Is it giving in to terror? Is it the signal that we are prepared to withdraw to the pre-1967 lines? To these must be added the ill-fated decision to charge the IDF with evacuating the settlers...


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/788015.html

[Roland]

From the tactical pov, turning Gaza into a battle field without israeli civilians,was a good idea. The war is long from being over and there is still a big opportunity, excuse and reason for Israel to take it back.
A little commentary of the gov't planning could help, though. Otherwise, even good measured actions, like maybe the Lebanon campaign or the disengagement (might?) have been, would turn out to work against Israel, again.

Shelling Gaza with heavy artillery won't help.
I still don't see an alternative to a bloody exhaustive house-by-house ransack of the whole rat nest.

[Roland]

Interpreting of what a majority wants, is a great sport for politicians.
No parlamentary majority? No problem, "the majority of the voters has mandated us to form a coalition!" - in fact, nobody has ever made a his "X" at "coalition".

[sharonbn]

What? Haaretz? the arab-loving jew-hating leftist paper is all of the sudden quotable???

[KettleWhistle]

One thing for sure - the majority is not always right. Of course examples abound in democratic societies where the majority is not always right. Numerous mistakes have been made that were backed by majority opinion.
[...]
Disengagement was advertised as a victory for democracy.

What majority? What democracy? There was never a national vote/refferendum on the issue. It was an authocratic decision, a victory for the authocracy of the mostly-unelected Israeli government.

[Ricky]

The moral of Moshe Aren's analysis is clear. Israel must make every effort to reach a political settlement with Abu Mazan, above the Hamas government. Abu Mazan is a moderate who opposes violence. He desperately wants to bring Palestinian public opinion away from Hamas to support again his party which recognises Israel. If Abu Mazan and Israel could reach a diplomatic agreement, at least an interim agreement establishing a Palestinian State (along side Israel) within temporary borders, such an agreement could very well persuade the Palestinian public to give its confidence again to Abu Mazan and his party

[KettleWhistle]

What? Haaretz? the arab-loving jew-hating leftist paper is all of the sudden quotable???
The Arab-loving, anti-Zionist, borderline openly-anti-Semitic HaHaretz is a good example of how shameless leftists damage this country, and then all they have to say is "oh, well, so some Jews died, we were wrong, but let's help the enemy some more." Just like they did in this case: http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6582/bloodyhandsofpalestiniancolorzk1.jpg

[NewsGuy]

From the tactical pov, turning Gaza into a battle field without israeli civilians,was a good idea. The war is long from being over and there is still a big opportunity, excuse and reason for Israel to take it back.
From a tactical pov, Israel has not been successful in removing Israeli civilians from the battle field. Before the expulsion, the Palestinian terrorists shared a border with Gush Katif. Now they share a border with Sderot, and other towns, and they are in better range to hit Ashkelon.

The Palestinian strategy of firing rockets into Israeli population centers has not changed, except that Israel's shameful retreat from Gaza and Lebanon has only increased the Islamists' ability to operate weapons factories and import heavy weapons from Iran.

I don't believe that Israel will be able to retake Gush Katif in a way that would allow for the expelled Jewish residents to return to their homes. The Olmert administration and its Leftist supporters have exterminated Jewish life from Gaza, and now the whole country is paying the price with military losses and a deep social divide.


Shelling Gaza with heavy artillery won't help.
I still don't see an alternative to a bloody exhaustive house-by-house ransack of the whole rat nest.
The only viable alternative is to remove the Palestinian population and its integrated terrorist militias from being within range of Israel. Israel needs to disregard the opinion of the Europeans, give the Palestinians a few days to vacate the area closest to Israel, and then vacate any remaining civilians and kill off the remaining militias without any limitation of force.

Any other solution that allows the Islamists to be within striking distance of Israel is doomed to failure.

[NewsGuy]

The moral of Moshe Aren's analysis is clear. Israel must make every effort to reach a political settlement with Abu Mazan, above the Hamas government. Abu Mazan is a moderate who opposes violence. He desperately wants to bring Palestinian public opinion away from Hamas to support again his party which recognises Israel. If Abu Mazan and Israel could reach a diplomatic agreement, at least an interim agreement establishing a Palestinian State (along side Israel) within temporary borders, such an agreement could very well persuade the Palestinian public to give its confidence again to Abu Mazan and his party
Not really.

Abu Mazen had his chance to arrive at a peace deal when he was in power. He did not do so, because he understood that to make peace with Israel there would have to be a civil war among the Palestinians, which he was not willing to have.

Abu Mazen has even less power these days, and will not gain any real power being part of a Palestinians "unity" government which does not recognize Israel's right to exist.

So, this whole idea of Abu Mazen defending Sderot and Ashkelon is just wishful thinking.

[Yala]

The moral of Moshe Aren's analysis is clear. Israel must make every effort to reach a political settlement with Abu Mazan, above the Hamas government. Abu Mazan is a moderate who opposes violence. He desperately wants to bring Palestinian public opinion away from Hamas to support again his party which recognises Israel. If Abu Mazan and Israel could reach a diplomatic agreement, at least an interim agreement establishing a Palestinian State (along side Israel) within temporary borders, such an agreement could very well persuade the Palestinian public to give its confidence again to Abu Mazan and his party

What is with you and praising "Abu Mazen" in every single thread? Are you in love with the guy or are you on his payroll? Left and right agree on nothing except that this guy is worthless.

Furthermore, there is little difference between Hamas and Fatah at the core. One is a group of religious terrorists and the other a group of secular terrorists. One admits openly to wanting to destroy Israel and the other admits to wanting to destroy Israel according to their phases plan. You can pick your poison, I'll pass.

[ygalg1]

What is with you and praising "Abu Mazen" in every single thread? Are you in love with the guy or are you on his payroll? Left and right agree on nothing except that this guy is worthless.

Furthermore, there is little difference between Hamas and Fatah at the core. One is a group of religious terrorists and the other a group of secular terrorists. One admits openly to wanting to destroy Israel and the other admits to wanting to destroy Israel according to their phases plan. You can pick your poison, I'll pass.
both are religious. nothing secular about them. say something against Muhammad and you see how secular they are.

[NewsGuy]

What majority? What democracy? There was never a national vote/refferendum on the issue. It was an authocratic decision, a victory for the authocracy of the mostly-unelected Israeli government.
Yes, Sharon and Olmert at the time refused to hold a referendum for fear of it becoming evident that their crazy plan of a forced expulsion of thousands of Jewish families would be shot down.

But Moshe Arens and many others, including me, believe that the majority of Israeli were duped into agreeing with the plan. They were fed a string of deliberate lies and wishful fantasies that sold the plan to the Left-leaning center of Israeli society at the time.

I am certain that had the country been told the truth, there would not have been majority support for the expulsion.

[Kadima]

Yes, Sharon and Olmert at the time refused to hold a referendum for fear of it becoming evident that their crazy plan of a forced expulsion of thousands of Jewish families would be shot down.

But Moshe Arens and many others, including me, believe that the majority of Israeli were duped into agreeing with the plan. They were fed a string of deliberate lies and wishful fantasies that sold the plan to the Left-leaning center of Israeli society at the time.

I am certain that had the country been told the truth, there would not have been majority support for the expulsion.

Pleeeese :rolleyes:

Then explain the last election results then .

The majority of Israelis not only wanted disengagement they also want an end to the occupation of the West Bank.

How many votes and seats did Herut and Baruch Marzel's party get ??? ;)

[Roland]

Yes, Sharon and Olmert at the time refused to hold a referendum for fear of it becoming evident that their crazy plan of a forced expulsion of thousands of Jewish families would be shot down.Has that plan been public before, actually?

But Moshe Arens and many others, including me, believe that the majority of Israeli were duped into agreeing with the plan. They were fed a string of deliberate lies and wishful fantasies that sold the plan to the Left-leaning center of Israeli society at the time.If they weren't asked at all - how could they have been duped to agree?

I am certain that had the country been told the truth, there would not have been majority support for the expulsion.
Good reminder.
A population has a big inertia to overcome until is says what it wants.
Eastgermany needed 40 years of communist despotism until the eastgermans moved out to say "WE are the people!".
Some European countries had a referendum, giving the people a choice about the Euro or not, some people - i.e. Germany - were not asked since they might have said NO - like UK, Danmark and Sweden.
Israel had the opportunity to elect a new gov't, only to see their more or less favoured parties were only a choice for the lesser evil - opposed to express a clear yes or no to the most pressing questions at hand.
Majorities are not a constant. One day they might agree to invading another nation, one day they might want to save their bare butts form the price they have to pay for it.
A majority had been asked once: Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?

[KettleWhistle]

But Moshe Arens and many others, including me, believe that the majority of Israeli were duped into agreeing with the plan. They were fed a string of deliberate lies and wishful fantasies that sold the plan to the Left-leaning center of Israeli society at the time.
Politicians almost always feed their lies. But would it matter if the majority of Israelis didn't support it? And how would you know? The biggest problem with Gaza evacuation was not the withdrawal itself, but the undemocratic, and authocratic, way in which it was conducted. The biggest lies they sold is that the complete disregard for anything and everything democratic was protective of democracy.

[Kadima]

Reply to Roland.

Of course the plan was made public.

Please read :

Referendum Entanglements @ http://www.me-ontarget.com/2005/february/referendum_entanglements.html

Disengagement 2005 the Correct Decision @ http://www.me-ontarget.com/features/features/disengagement_2005_the_correct_decision_537.html

[NewsGuy]

Pleeeese :rolleyes:

Then explain the last election results then .

The majority of Israelis not only wanted disengagement they also want an end to the occupation of the West Bank.

How many votes and seats did Herut and Baruch Marzel's party get ??? ;)
The elections were purely a matter of the Kadima party selling their lies and fantasies to the public. Yes, they got a majority vote, but as we see only a short while after their fraudulent election, certain facts are coming to light and the Israeli public wants Olmert and Peretz to resign.

- It turns out that the top leadership of Kadima is being investigated for criminal acts.
- It turns out that Peretz and Olmert have caused the destruction of a large part of Northern Israel.
- It turns out the Livni can't do her job, and can't represent Israel in the world media.
- It turns out that the promises about compensating the victims of the Gaza expulsion turned out to be outright lies.
- And it turns out that the expulsion weakened Israel, put more of the country in the Jihadists' line of fire, and the split in Israeli society has only gotten worse.

So, now the public no longer supports the government and there are calls for the government to step down. Will Kadima respect the wishes of its voters? I doubt it. Kadima was founded on fraud and betrayal, so I wouldn't expect much from it.

[Kadima]

I will answer in due course , but in the meantime it would be appreciated if you could answer my very simple question :

" How many votes and seats did Herut and Baruch Marzel's party get ??? "

[NewsGuy]

I will answer in due course , but in the meantime it would be appreciated if you could answer my very simple question :

" How many votes and seats did Herut and Baruch Marzel's party get ??? "

I don't know. The reason I didn't answer in the first place is because I wasn't sure how this tied into anything we're discussing.

[Yala]

Poll results show only 7% of the country supports Olmert so there you have it. I'm actually surprised it's not less.

[Kadima]

I don't know. The reason I didn't answer in the first place is because I wasn't sure how this tied into anything we're discussing.


Herut received 2,387 votes and 0 seats and lost their deposit .

Baruch Marzel's party " the National Jewish Front " received 24,824 votes ( about 40% of the required minimum to enter the Knesset) and therefore 0 seats .

It's relevant NewsGuy, and we would love to explain why , but you're moderator KettleWhistle keeps deleting our posts.

[NewsGuy]

Herut received 2,387 votes and 0 seats and lost their deposit .

Baruch Marzel's party " the National Jewish Front " received 24,824 votes ( about 40% of the required minimum to enter the Knesset) and therefore 0 seats .

It's relevant NewsGuy, and we would love to explain why , but you're moderator KettleWhistle keeps deleting our posts.

Well, he didn't delete this one. If you would love to respond, go ahead...

And who's "we" btw?

[Kadima]

Well, he didn't delete this one.

Well, that's patently obvious to all , we wouldn't be having this discussion if he had , now would we ?


If you would love to respond, go ahead...

We will , once we have you're guarantee that it won't be deleted.


And who's "we" btw?

Well , "we" know that you know who "we" are , what you might not know is that "we" know who you are .
So let's stop playing around and get back to the debate shall we ?

[The Baron]

From an outsider POV, the....procedure....(''evacuation'' or ''expulsion'' are not neutral terms) certainly did not gave the excepted results (whch would have been concession from the other side)

It had, however, a very, very, very clear advantage: any one informed on the Middle East can't deny that Israel is making real concessions, is really willing to go on the peace process.

[Yala]

It had, however, a very, very, very clear advantage: any one informed on the Middle East can't deny that Israel is making real concessions, is really willing to go on the peace process.

You can't be serious. Not long after everyone was harping on Israel to make more concessions when they received nothing but terror in return from the Palestinians for leaving Gaza.

[KettleWhistle]

Poll: Netanyahu leads, Gaydamak worth 13 Knesset seats
Survey conducted by Dahaf Institute for Yedioth Ahronoth reveals if elections were held today Likud would get 20 Knesset seats, Kadima and Labor would each drop to 15 seats. Meretz to gain strength with eight seats, while Pensioners Party may watch Knesset on television Ynet Published: 11.22.06, 07:54

Likud Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu had a good reason to be satisfied Wednesday morning. According to a poll conducted by the Yedioth Ahronoth daily and the Dahaf Institute headed by Mina Tzemach, if the elections were to be held today, the Likud party would receive 20 Knesset seats, compared to 12 it holds today.
The complete survey will be published in Yedioth Ahronoth's Shabbat supplement.
Kadima, led by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331207,00.html#n) , crashes to 15 Knesset seats, nearly half of the seats it has today.
The Labor Party, led by Defense Minister Amir Peretz (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331207,00.html#n) , gets a similar amount of seats, compared to the 19 it holds today.
Both Peretz and Olmert are paying for the failures revealed during the Lebanon (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331207,00.html#n) war. More and more people have been recently calling to replace Peretz as defense minister.

Meretz is the big winner of the Left, as it is expected to receive a significant number of voters disappointed by Peretz and gain strength with eight Knesset seats compared to the five it has today.

In the past, there were talks about a possible merger between Meretz and the Labor Party, and this option may be considered again ahead of elections.

Head to head with Lieberman
The rising star in Israeli politics, business mogul Arcadi Gyadamak, would get 13 Knesset seats if he would choose to run in the elections today. Gaydamak recently gained popularity following the evacuation of Sderot residents to Eilat.

Although he was slammed by the government, residents of the southern town admire the person who took initiative where the public systems failed.

Israel Our Home, led by Avigdor Lieberamn, will compete head to head with Gaydamak's party over the new immigrants, and this is well reflected in the poll, in which Lieberman receives 10 Knesset seats, only one less than the number of seats he has today.



Shas, according to the Yedioth Ahronoth poll, drops to 11 seats compared to 12 it holds today. The Arab parties get 10 seats altogether.

National Unity-National Religious Party is expected to get nine Knesset seats, the same number of seats it has today. United Torah Judaism also receives the same number of seats it has today – six, while the Pensioners Party drops from seven seats to only three seats.

The poll was conducted among a representative sample of 499 people.

source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331207,00.html