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NewsGuy
07-19-2002, 01:02 PM
Less than a week has passed since the back-to-back Palestinian terrorist attacks, and every few hours, more deaths of critically wounded Israelis are being reported. Images of pools of Jewish blood in the streets of Tel Aviv still mar the front pages of the Israeli dailies, yet the Sharon government is heading back to peace talks with the very same Palestinians responsible for the ongoing massacres.

It seems that Shimon Peres and Danny Naveh will top the Israeli delegation scheduled to meet with Arafat's mouth-piece, terror apologist Saeb Erekat, on Saturday.

Based on the public criticism of Sharon spewed by none other than Shimon Peres prior to the meeting, it was not entirely clear which side of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict Peres would represent. But the meeting is said to focus on what Israel can do to improve the quality of life of the Palestinians, while the massacre of Israelis goes on.

This is considered progress in the Middle East...

Vic
07-19-2002, 02:06 PM
Maybe they should stop for a while.

I remember a German TV reporter from Tel Aviv, straight after an attack this spring. He burst out in near-hysterical laughter when the anchorwoman put the obligatory question on "the effect of the attack on the peace process": "Peace process? What peace process are you talking about?"...

For myself, I can't hear about the "peace process" "coming to a halt" or "being furthered" or "being endangered" by this or that. It's become a kind of macabre waltz dance.

Do such talks bring anything except a friendlier reception for Peres in other countries?

Gilgamesh
07-20-2002, 06:38 AM
I totally agree to the immidiate need to imporve the quality of life of the Arabs in the teritories.

Curfews, road blocks, check points and other restirctions on movments of Arabs caused a deterioration in Arab economy and extened the poverty there.

Every Arab who had the means to do so, has already emmigrated to other countries for good: USA, France, Iraq and the Persian Gulf kingdoms.

Israel can't lift the restirctions on Arab towns, because each time the curfew is lifted for more then few hours, there is a terrorist atempt, which some times succesid in killing Jews.

The best way so far, to prevent the Arab terrorism while not imposing movement restirctions is in Gaza: more Arabs should be allowed to move from Jewdea and Shomron (a.k.a. the West benk) to Gaza where there are no curfews, no soldiers and no movment restriction what so ever.

In the interst of perseving and promoting peace, nations of the world, aspecialy oil rich Arab states, who officaily claim that peace and the welfare of the Palestinians is their chief intrest, must help in the relocation of Arabs to Gaza, a better places which is already governed by the PA.

All the PA facilities and menpower left untouched in the last few monthes of the IDF effort to reduce terrorist activity.

Labeeb
07-20-2002, 11:35 AM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to all esteemed Forum Contributors.

The Palestinian people are forever the eternal neighbors of the State of Israel. Is it not true that the Israelis have no choice but to accept that they are of the same land, and are in fact, the same beloved children of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) ?

How does a civililized and modern nation such as Israel commit to a systematic methodology of destruction, humiliations, curfews, closures and roadblocks, along with the daily suffering you cause to the Palestinian people and its children?

I call upon the descendents of Israel (phuh), son of Isaac (phuh), son the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) to dismantle its settlements, and to let the Palestinian people go!

Let the Palestinian be free at last.

The march of history and destiny of all freedom lving people
is against the settler.

-------------
I know little - But Allah Almighty knows best and knows all.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

Gilgamesh
07-20-2002, 12:58 PM
May we all be free!!! I wish freedom and liberty to all, aspecialy freedom & liberty from people suce as you: Labeeb...

ibrodsky
07-20-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Labeeb
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to all esteemed Forum Contributors.

The Palestinian people are forever the eternal neighbors of the State of Israel. Is it not true that the Israelis have no choice but to accept that they are of the same land, and are in fact, the same beloved children of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) ?

How does a civililized and modern nation such as Israel commit to a systematic methodology of destruction, humiliations, curfews, closures and roadblocks, along with the daily suffering you cause to the Palestinian people and its children?

I call upon the descendents of Israel (phuh), son of Isaac (phuh), son the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) to dismantle its settlements, and to let the Palestinian people go!

Let the Palestinian be free at last.


Sorry, Labeeb, but this is just candy-coated Arab propaganda.

The reason -- and the only reason -- Israel uses checkpoints, roadblocks, curfews, and other forms of "daily suffering" is because nearly all of Palestinian society has embraced the profound evil of terrorist suicide/homicide attacks on Israel's women, children, and elderly.

Palestinians have no one to blame for their current situation but themselves. As you might say, it is Israel's duty to stop this evil using all legitimate means at her disposal.

Since you believe in tolerance and coexistence, I think you should reconsider the settlements question. Why can't Jews live as a loyal minority in a democratic Palestinian state? Israel does not demand that all Muslims leave Israel. Why do Palestinians demand that all Jews leave the West Bank and Gaza -- which are disputed territories?

Please note that Israel captured the WB and Gaza from Jordan and Egypt, respectively, and both of these countries have made peace with Israel. It seems they have acknowledged that they lost the WB and Gaza due to their own folly.

It is time for good Muslims to denounce the Palestinians for their many crimes:

1. Suicide/homicide attacks -- a terrible sin
2. Choosing the Father of Modern Terrorism as their leader
3. Tolerating and even revering fascist-terrorist groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad
4. Supporting the most corrupt and brutal Arab and Islamic totalitarian states such as Iraq, Iran, and Syria.
5. Spontaneously celebrating terrorist attacks on Israel and the U.S.
6. Spreading Big Lie after Big Lie after Big Lie. The only "massacre" in Jenin was when Palestinians lured 13 Israeli soldiers to their deaths by pretending they were going to surrender.
7. Making many more false allegations against Israel, such as claiming Israel distributes poison candy to Palestinian children, that female IDF soldiers strip to lure brave Arab warriors to their deaths, and that Israel started this war.
8. Broke every agreement they had signed.
9. Responded to Barak's peace offer not with a counter-proposal but with violence.
10. Pretend they are seeking a settlement when their participation in the Oslo "Peace Proces" was merely a ruse to get arms and allow the evil Arafat to indoctrinate an entire of generation of Palestinians to become mindless, zombie-like, suicide mass-murder bombs.

To wit, good Muslims should demand that the Palestinians stop their evil terrorism immediately. If they do not, then it is the duty of good Muslims to support Israel in dispatching these viscious mass murders to Hell (or at least Gaza -- a reasonable facsimile of Hell) forthwith.

Labeeb
07-20-2002, 03:06 PM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to Gilgamesh.

It is not I whom you need freedom and liberty from.

You are free to choose your own destiny, prison, life,
death or freedom. I pray that the choice you make is
the wise path of submission to Allah Almighty.

Islam is the fountain of guidance, the source of happiness
and the repose of purity and chastity.

I see Gilgamesh, that you are from the State of Israel.

I too have been there, your people were very kind and
respectful to us. And I remember that we were grateful.
--------
Allah Almighty knows best and knows all.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

Labeeb
07-20-2002, 03:17 PM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to ibrodsky.

What you call "candy-coated" I call the truth. I will never
dishonor your faith and beliefs - no matter what the
provocation.

In this great country, and in this excellent forum you and I are
free to agree to disagree. Lets us be honorable.

My personal issue are in regards the Israeli settlers and their supporters who continue to live in and build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, thus forever destroying the national fabric of Palestine. It is these settlements that go to the heart of the problem.

I am priviledged and honored to be a citizen of the greatest nation ever in history. Allah Almighty has deemed The USA a special place in his heart for His (S.W.T) many blessings and special favor in history. So I wish to remind the Israeli settlers and its illigal settlements - that my country has a special affinity in history for the cause of freedom and liberation for all people of the world. He (S.W.T), Who Created The Universe, hears the
cries for dignity, liberation and freedom of the Palestinian people.

My people, are a people who strongly believe in Freedom and Liberty for all. In this, all credit is due to the Prophet Moses (pbuh) who having known and obeyed Allah Almighty, liberated and gave freedom to The Hebrew Tribes of Israel (pbuh) the son of Isaac (pbuh), and who inspired The Founding Fathers our great nation such as The Honorable Thomas Jefferson (pbuh).

We, are prepared to fight for, and sacrifice much for, that just and most noble of causes - Freedom and Liberty.

Therefore, may I remind the Israeli settlers that We, are the among the first to sign the United Nations Charter in 1366 A.H. (1945 C.E.) - my people have been instrumental into bringing another 110 nations into the United Nations, and even paying their dues and fees.

By His (S.W.T) Most Merciful Grace, Strength and Favor, my nation has done much for my Islamic brothers and sisters - we protect the Bosnians and Kosovars, we protect the Kurdish and the Sunnis of the south of Iraq, we protect the Persian
Gulf nations, we protect United Nations workers as they feed Somalians, Sudanese, Chadanese. We are first in financial, military, medicine and food aid to the 56 member nations of the Organization of Islamic Countries (The OIC). My people was
first and foremost in helping the noble Mujahadeen fight the communists of the Soviet Union, which to led its collapse and went on to liberated the many Stans of Central Asia - The Turkmeni, The Kazahk, The Tajiski, The Uzbek, and The Afghan.

I need not remind the Israeli settlers of the gratitute of the
Pashtun and Afghan people for its most recent liberation.

The Israeli settlers are truly on the wrong side of will of Allah Almighty, for one day soon, my country will also liberate and protect the coming and newly formed: - Republic of Palestine.

The settlers will dismantle and forever leave that soil.
And Palestine will be free at last.
--------
Please remember, I know little, it is Allah Almighty who knows
best and knows all.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

cerulean
07-20-2002, 03:51 PM
The Israeli settlers are truly on the wrong side of will of Allah Almighty, for one day soon, my country will also liberate and protect the coming and newly formed: - Republic of Palestine.

The settlers will dismantle and forever leave that soil.
And Palestine will be free at last.

It will be indeed unfortunate if the United States goes against the settlers. Admittedly, the US has undertaken initiatives that were not well-considered in the past and which have contributed to the current conditions of Islamist terrorism. It's the duty of Americans to prevent this happening again.

The settlers leaving the soil will not contribute in the slightest to "Palestine" being free. Look at all the countries in the Arab world that are devoid or almost devoid of Jews and which are far from free.

Willa Wright
07-20-2002, 04:05 PM
:o I would like to say that I totally agree with Gilgamesh. The only
thing I would like to add, the world had better wake up to Arab
liars such as Arafat. These people have no regard for human
life, they send out their own children to die. They feed them
hate to the point of insanity, tell them that they will end up
in paradise with 70 virgins!! When the fires of hell surround
them, they can't blame Israel, perhaps God will let them see
their parents receiving the $35,000.00 pay off money. Arafat is the father of the terrorist, but I know that all the Arab States
have blood on their hands. After those heartless murderers
invaded our land, the United States of America, a land that has
opened her helping hand to many, many, nations, there is no
doubt what a sane world must do to protect it's land and
people. Has the Arab ever asked the followers of Yeshua how
we feel about the "Dome" being on Almighty God's Temple
Mount? We know that God is going to bring that building
down and the true God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the God
of the Jew and Christian will reign. I pray to a merciful God
that the Arab will know the trulth and be part of the earthly reign.

Vic
07-20-2002, 04:06 PM
Labeeb, what do you have against the standard American English style of communication?

Labeeb
07-20-2002, 04:08 PM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to cerulean.

I am in full agreement with you. If I may respecfully quote you:

[..Look at all the countries in the Arab world that are devoid or almost devoid of Jews and which are far from free..]

Perhaps we should also recognize the special purpose and
mission of the United States in history - to bring hope, freedom
dignity to those whom you mentioned.

A free and democratic Palestine will bring that hope to
all who live in the Islamic world.

It is true that traditionally, Americans of the Jewish faith have voted as Democrats and Americans of the Islamic faith have
voted as Republicans. So this is much more that an issue of our internal polity. I trust that we will see beyond the local.

But I will take pun over an election campaign slogan of a previous President, The Honorable William J. Clinton ---- "Its the
Settlements ] Stupid" (please, no offense intended - Allah Almighty also loves the Democrats)

Last month, The Honorable George W. Bush has set the course of this great nation and we sail toward the rightious and true path for the liberation of Palestine and its people. No power in this universe, accept Him (S.W.T) can stop or alter our course with destiny.

Allah Almighty knows best and knows all.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

ibrodsky
07-20-2002, 04:11 PM
Labeeb, I appreciate your tone. But as best I can tell reading your post, you have either side-stepped the issue I raised or you believe that the WB and Gaza must be rendered Jew-free.

Why ethnic cleansing is so ingrained in the minds of many Palestinians and their supporters I do not understand.

Actually, Israeli settlers have much in common with the early American pioneers. They bring modernization, democratic ideals, and tolerance to the West Bank and Gaza. (I am speaking of American pioneers who simply wanted to settle on a small piece of land and work it to produce something for their family and others.)

I am an American citizen. I am extremely proud of my country's support for and close ties with Israel. Israel is a beacon of democracy, modernization, and prosperity in a part of the world where ignorance and poverty keep countries run by one strong man (and perhaps his extended family) safe from democratic and open forms of government.

Labeeb, nothing I have said is meant as a provocation re: your faith. Please understand that when I use the term "Islamist" I do not mean Islam, I mean militant Islam.

I do have criticisms of Islam, but I believe Islam can be modernized just as Christianity and Judaism have been. The first step towards achieving this goal is recognizing that mainstream Islam is far too tolerant of the large minority of those who call themselves Muslims but support or excuse murderous terrorist attacks.

Labeeb
07-20-2002, 04:47 PM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to Vic.

I'm not certain I know what you mean, the English I learned
as a child is of the Oxford texts. I've never been to Oxford
England. Though I proudly served the our nations US Army,
I refused to speak in ways that did bring credit to Allah
Almighty. I served with honor and I have many friends who
never asked me that question.

Why do you ask me that question?
--------
--------
And a special Greetings to ibrodsky.

No, I did not intend to "side-stepped the issue".

My focus is on the settlements - not every wrong and
counter-wrong that is done for decades to each other.
At some point the decendents of Ishmael and Israel will
forvgive each other, live in peace and prosper together.

I believe that the West Bank and Gaza must be, the Republic of
Palestine.

Never "Jew-Free". Just like Arabs (and Chinese, Hindus,
Africans) are Israeli citizens. People of the Jewish faith
can be Palestinian citizens. The values of tolerance that are
part and parcel of democracies will also flourish in Palestine.

I now understand and respect your definition of the word
"Islamist". I Thank you for the clarification. I will remember
this, as I believe you use this word often.

I understand (very well), our nation's support for the State
of Israel - likewise we must also understand why America will
support the free and sovereign Republic of Palestine. Destiny
and Allah Almighty is always on the side of his oppressed
people. The Phaorohs of ancient Egypt know this well.

We can be humble and proud of both nations.
--------
Please remember, that I know little. It is Allah Almighty
who knows best and knows all.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

ibrodsky
07-20-2002, 04:51 PM
Labeeb,

It's not "the settlements, Stupid!" I'm sure you know better than that.

Israel's Arab enemies have been attacking Israel and her civilians since well before 1967. The Arab's war to destroy Israel started before the "occupation" and well before the settlements.

Interestingly, no Arab countries considered making peace with Israel until after Israel began settlements. In effect, the Israelis tired of making peace overtures that were rebuffed with venom and hatred. So they said, essentially, "You don't want to negotiate a peace deal that might include getting some of the land you lost back? Fine. We will start settling the land. Perhaps this will make you rethink your intransigence."

Sure enough, it worked.

Re: the "liberation" of Palestine: the Palestinians are surely in desperate need of liberation. They must liberate themselves of groups that are on my country''s official list of terrorist organizations. They must liberate themselves from an ideology that teaches children people who blow up busses are to be glorified. They must be liberated from an ideology that teaches them Saddam Hussein is a "good" leader and George W. Bush is evil.

Once the Palestinians are liberated from their profound hatred, from their Crimes Against Humanity (source: Amnesty International), and from their corrupt leaders, I have complete faith they will be able to negotiate a fair settlement with Israel.

Labeeb
07-20-2002, 10:43 PM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to ibrodsky.

I believe that the settlements are at the heart and core
of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I hope that you have not forgotten, that because of the
Oslo Accords, the USA provides almost half of the income
of the Palestinian Authority. The European Union the
other half and the Arab League making up the difference.

The US has not and will not walk away from the Palestinian
people.

The Honorable President George W. Bush has made that clear
and also grieves for the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Whatever " venom and hatred" that you believe arise from the
Palestinians, it is not the majority. Prior to to the curfews,
hundreds of thousands of Palestinians worked in peace along
side Israelis everyday.

I believe you paint the common Palestinian with too broad a
paint brush. Most Palestinians love their children and hope
for a better future. Yet they will be the first to agree that
"corrupt leaders" are part of the problem. History, faith,
emotionalism, cults - also cloud the thinking for a rational
solution.

Regardless of who started which war, I am in agreement with
most Israelis, that these are not "Occupied" territories but
"Disputed" territories. Let us stand back from the rhetoric,
symbolism, propaganda, heartless accusations - that exists
of both sides and view this issue with clear thinking and
sound judgement.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the
Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, in 1370 A.H.
(1949 C.E.), 6 UST 3516, provides, in paragraph 6 states that:

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its
own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Do you not agree ibrodsky, that Paragraph 6 appears to
apply by its terms to any transfer by an occupying power of
parts of its civilian population, whatever the objective and
whether involuntary or voluntary?

The Israeli civilian settlements thus appear to constitute a
"transfer of parts of its own civilian population into the
territory it occupies" within the scope of paragraph 6.

While Israel may undertake, in the "disputed" territories,
actions necessary to meet its military needs and to provide
for orderly government during the occupation as the result
of the 1967 wars, for the reasons that I noted and that I trust
I have your agreement on, the establishment of the civilian
settlements in those territories is inconsistent with
international law.

I hope that you will support the Honorable President George W. Bush, and all people who love freedom and humbly pray to Allah Almighty, to bring about a soveriegn, free and democratic
Republic of Palestine in three years time - as He (S.W.T) wills and ordains.

Dear ibrodsky: May Allah Almighty guide you to the straight path,
and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

Mediocrates
07-21-2002, 04:10 AM
Except sir they are not an occupying power, occupying. That in and of itself is rhetoric.

ibrodsky
07-21-2002, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by Labeeb


I believe you paint the common Palestinian with too broad a
paint brush. Most Palestinians love their children and hope
for a better future. Yet they will be the first to agree that
"corrupt leaders" are part of the problem. History, faith,
emotionalism, cults - also cloud the thinking for a rational
solution.

I am certain there are many good Palestinians. However, they are a silent and nearly invisible minority. Opinion polls repeatedly show a majority of Palestinians support terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

I suspect many of the Palestinians accused of being "collaborators" are actually just decent people who spoke out against terrorism. Others are really working for Israel; I consider both groups heroes.


Regardless of who started which war, I am in agreement with most Israelis, that these are not "Occupied" territories but
"Disputed" territories. Let us stand back from the rhetoric,
symbolism, propaganda, heartless accusations - that exists
of both sides and view this issue with clear thinking and
sound judgement.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the
Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, in 1370 A.H.
(1949 C.E.), 6 UST 3516, provides, in paragraph 6 states that:

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its
own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Sorry Labeeb, but I don't follow your logic. The territories are disputed rather than occupied. Therefore, laws concerning "occupied" land do not apply.

The original dispute was between Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. Since both Jordan and Egypt have made peace with Israel, it appears they have at least agreed that Israel is the rightful guardian of the territories.

While Israel has chosen not to annex the territories and is obviously ready to relinquish most of the land as part of a peace settlement, Israel is in no way obligated to return 100% of the territories. Therefore, some of the settlements are on land that may be annexed in the future.

In any event, only a negotiated peace deal can decide the fate of the settlements. Since the Palestinians responded to a sincere offer with a war, I think Israel has the right to expand the settlements. Clearly, if the PA fought terrorists like they fight "collaborators," Israel would suspend all further settlement activity pending outcome of negotiations.

Please keep in mind that just as you feel I paint the Palestinian people with too broad a brush, a criticism I understand, I find the demand that all Jewish settlements be dismantled to be racist.

Let me give you an example. There are Jewish "settlers" living in the center of Hebron. These people have re-established the Jewish community that was massacred and driven from their homes in 1929. Palestinians have no right to demand that these people leave. Instead, they should beg their forgiveness.

Labeeb
07-21-2002, 05:16 AM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings Mediocrates

Until the last Union soldiers left the Great and
Sovereign State of North Carolina to manage its
own internal affairs, did they not "occupy" your
land?

Or did the good people of the State call them, "guests".

When an Army not of your own choosing, maintains curfews,
roadblocks, and controls all movement of common life
in Raleigh and Wilmington and all the counties in
between...........

I believe you would also call them "occupiers" and
their activities: an occupation of the land. In the case
of Palestine, "the land" is in dispute.

But perhaps you have another word - in that case, we speak
not in common terms of that defines the suffering of
oppressed people, but exercise mere semantics that
covers reality.

Join me Mediocrates, let us speak with clarity, and with
one voice. Write to your Congressman in calling for freedom,
liberty and justice for the people of Palestine. It is our
long and charished tradition to do so.

There can never be peace without justice and dignity. This
human desire is forever ordained by Allah Almighty and
exists within all humankind.

That is why you and I seek The Creator of the Universe.
----------------------------------
Allah Almighty knows best.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

ibrodsky
07-21-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Labeeb

When an Army not of your own choosing, maintains curfews,
roadblocks, and controls all movement of common life
in Raleigh and Wilmington and all the counties in
between...........

I believe you would also call them "occupiers" and
their activities: an occupation of the land. In the case
of Palestine, "the land" is in dispute.

But perhaps you have another word - in that case, we speak
not in common terms of that defines the suffering of
oppressed people, but exercise mere semantics that
covers reality.


Labeeb,

While I appreciate your civil tone, it seems there is often one outrageously false statement sandwiched between your pious introduction and respectful close.

You know quite well that Israel pulled out of all Palestinian cities, helped arm a Palestinian "security force" so they could put the terrorists out of business, and only set up roadblocks and returned to Palestinian cities after a series of mass murder attacks by Palestinian groups who always said they will never accept any deal with Israel.

You know full well that the Palestinian people chose as their leader one of the greatest criminals of the 20th century, and that Arafat spent the Oslo "Peace Process" years indoctrinating an entire generation of Palestinians to mass murder Jews through Palestinian schools, media, and mosques.

For you to pretend that Israel is oppressing the Palestinians when in fact it is the Palestinians who are brutalizing Israeli elderly, children, and women is the height of hypocrisy.

If you desire to see a peaceful, two-state solution as you claim then you should first demand a complete halt to Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians; that the Palestinians' leaders truly fight terrorist groups; and that Israel defend its citizens until these savage attacks are brought to a complete halt.

Yes, you should demand that either the Palestinians use their security force to crush Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, and Al Aqsa Brigades -- or step aside and let Israel do it.

Please keep in mind that Amnesty International, an organization not know for supporting Israel, has judged Palestinian terrorist attacks to be Crimes Against Humanity and possibly War Crimes.

Israel has already proved it is sincerely interested in a peaceful settlement and recognizes that such a settlement inevitably involves creation of a Palestinian state. In fact, Israel proposed something very much along those lines. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have proposed nothing and simply demand that Israel craft a deal that meets all one-sided Palestinian demands. These disingenuous demands include the "return" of one million Arabs to inside Israel (an obvious Trojan horse) and that Israel relinquish the entire Old City of Jerusalem because, according to the Palestinians' evil leader, "There are no Jewish religious sites in Jerusalem."

I also think it is time you read this forum's Rules of the Road. We are here to discuss the issues. Religious proselytizing and other religious activities are not permitted.

Mediocrates
07-21-2002, 06:29 PM
Until the last Union soldiers left the Great and Sovereign State of North Carolina to manage its own internal affairs, did they not "occupy" your land?

No. They were supporting the Federal government that was holding the US together as a single entity. States are only sovereign to the extent that they support the Federal government and the Constitution.

Micah
07-21-2002, 06:33 PM
No online conversions please

NewsGuy
07-21-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Labeeb
When an Army not of your own choosing, maintains curfews,
roadblocks, and controls all movement of common life
in Raleigh and Wilmington and all the counties in
between........... I believe you would also call them "occupiers" and
their activities: an occupation of the land. In the case
of Palestine, "the land" is in dispute.
Labeeb,

I can say in all honsety that if the people of Raleigh and Wilmington built illegal missile factories, trained and recruited terrorist squads, broadcast racist incitement on public TV and sent suicide bombers into neighboring states -- like the Palestinians do to Israel -- then there would indeed be a Federal militia sent in to impose curfews and the like. In fact, curfews have been imposed in places like Los Angeles in the past decade when people get out of control and start to wreak havoc on their neighbors.

I have always wondered why Arabs and other Muslims are baffled by Israel's right to self-defense against their Palestinians enemies who massacre innocent Jews. I am especially surprised at your questions as a Muslim who has seen on many occasions how Muslim states like Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, etc. deal withthe same issues thay confront Israel. To put it mildly, the Arab states are accustomed to dealing with their own Islamic terrorism in a much less humane way than does Israel.

But, yes, the ongoing war of terrorism and the Jihad-genocide declared by the Palestinians on Israel, has unfortunately necessitated a determined reaction from Israel, much in the same way that the U.S. has had to react against Osama bin Ladin's terrorist war against Western civilization.

I am sorry for the so-called innocent Palestinians who are being kept in a state of misery by their brutal and corrupt leaders, as well as by the Islamic terrorist regimes that infest the Middle East. Sooner or later, I hope that the Palestinians will re-think their war of terrorism against Israel and join the 21st century of mankind in placing a real value on constructive success and cooperation rather than on the massacre of innocent Israelis.

I would be curious to know, Labeeb, your opinion as to whether this generation of Palestinians has the capacity to live as civilized and productive people, or must we wait for the next few generations until a Palestinian society arises that is capable of acting as true peace partners?

SteveMetch
07-22-2002, 08:38 AM
Labeeb, since you seem knowledgeable about Islam maybe you could answer a few of these questions.

If Islam is so peaceful why can’t Christian missionaries preach in the Saudi Arabia?

Why is having a bible in Saudi Arabia punishable by a life time in prison?

Why did the president during the Gulf War have to celebrate thanksgiving on ships in the Persian Gulf rather than on Saudi soil at United States bases full of soldiers defending Saudi Arabia?

The Koran on Peace
005.033-34
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The Bible on Peace
5 Matthew 43-44
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”
12 Romans 19-21
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I Submit, that the angel Muhammad received his revelations from was in fact the devil. Islam is a satanic cult and all cultures who follow it are cursed as witnessed by history. The devil started Islam to divert the world away from the true Judeo/Christian Faith. These facts were revealed to Christians over 600 years before Muhammad.

1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
7 Matthew 15-16
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Islam is not peace. The practice of the Islam defined by the ambiguously evil Koran and the explicit Evil Hadith results in Islamism. Islamism shares all the same characteristics of the murderous ideologies of Fascism and Communism. One cannot win a war fighting the wrong thing. This is no more a war on terrorism than the cold war was a war against nuclear ballistic missiles. The alliance against Islamism has already formed. The current members are the United States of America, Israel, Russia & India. Together hopefully in a cold war like fashion we can grind Islamism into to ground.

Our best weapons are democracy, the bible and capitalism. These ideas which germinated and developed in the west are a contradictory to Islamism. This is why to this day no Islamic country has established any of these concepts in practice. People who truly practice the Islam of the Koran and Hadith know this. That is why they are so threatened by the west. The west represents an end to the Islam of the Koran, a core component of the Middle East culture and history and self identity.
No lasting peace is possible in Israel, The United States, India, Russia or the world without confronting the harsh realities of this cultural schism in mankind. Any peace deal, war, and or social solution which does not acknowledge this fact will fail. Culture clash are an inevitable part of globalization.

Labeeb maybe you should read the bible as instructed by Muhammad. By the way it is the same version that was available in Muhammad’s time or was he posed by the devil when he said that. Since September 11 I have read the Koran cover to cover. There is more inspiration in one parable of Jesus than the entire Koran. Basically the Koran and Hadith are survival guides for someone who lives in the desert.

One last question, what is with the obsession of over women’s menstrual cycles?

Micah
07-22-2002, 09:15 AM
Did the Pope declare a Jihad and start another Crusade without me knowing it? :confused:

L@mplighterM
07-22-2002, 09:48 AM
Quote by Labeeb:


Join me Mediocrates, let us speak with clarity, and with
one voice. Write to your Congressman in calling for freedom,
liberty and justice for the people of Palestine. It is our
long and charished tradition to do so.

There can never be peace without justice and dignity. This
human desire is forever ordained by Allah Almighty and
exists within all humankind.

That is why you and I seek The Creator of the Universe.




I’m an atheist and I haven’t prayed since I was I child but for you I’ll pray. Not being from the ME or a Muslim I’ll pray not to Allah but to G_d.

Please G_d let the forces of goodness and righteousness send the evil daemons that support terrorism back to HELL where they belong. Use your almighty wisdom to make the leaders of the free world see the evil that dwells within Islam and let them come together in a Crusade to destroy the terrorists and their supporters. Let the forces of NATO be victorious in their battle against Saddam Hussein and destroy his forces that enslave the Iraqis. Guide the leaders of NATO and let them continue their fight in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, WB, GS, Saudi Arabia… and throughout the world wherever the spawns of Satan dwells.

Let them leave no stone untouched strike the evil where it hides spare no terrorist or their supporter.

When that is done the world will awaken to a new dawn and there will be liberty.

At that point there will be no need to write to any government official and everyone can save the money that they were otherwise going to use for a stamp.

minusthejihad
07-22-2002, 10:01 AM
Amen!

Gilgamesh
07-22-2002, 11:34 AM
Amen ken yehi ratzon! (amen, let it [come true] at [G_d's] will )

Labeeb
07-22-2002, 01:20 PM
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and
blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

* Greetings to all Forum Contributors

I see that I have receive many responses to my contributions
to these most excellent of forums. I thank the kind hosts for
allowing me to participate and for the replies of all esteemed
Contributors.

I will attempt to reply to all as best as I can.

First of all, are we not all glad that the Israeli people and
the Honorable President Geroge W. Bush are much more
compassionate to Palestinians than many of you on these forums?

Good News Today:
1) The Israel Defence Force is seeking to ease the Palestinian
curfews, allow children to go to school and play, allow mothers
and fathers to gather food and water, hospitals to obtain
medicines and the sick obtain treatment and help.
2) The Israeli government is about to release frozen tax revenues
to the Palestinian Authority in order for it to properly govern
its people.

In 1412 A.H. (1991 C.E.) I spent six months in Israel, of course
I was not there on holiday. Since all my expenses were paid for
by the American taxpayer, I was able to visit and pray in the
many historic Mosques and Islamic Holy Sites throughout the
land of Palestine and Israel, while off duty, especially during
the latter weeks.

I noticed several things:

1- The Israelis are by far, the craziest car drivers in the world.
2- Their young women were tall, strong willed, tan, and would punch the daylights out of my disrespectful companions who
crudely and openly attempted to dishonor them. I also noticed that my friends soon acquired the good virture of humility
because of them. Nontheless, all Israelis treated us with much kindness, brought home cooked food, and were concerned for
our safety.
3- The Israeli people have a sincere concern and compassion for
their Arab neighbors that is both remarkable and genuine.

They volunteer for medical clinics for the Palestinians, dig wells,
gather blankets and food for the poor, repair homes and much
more.

But; it is not only I who recognizes the evil of the occupation
and the dead-end-road of the settlements - the Israeli is far more
critical themselves than I could ever be. They know better than all
of us, the heavy moral, spiritual, and financial burdens of the
occupation and the settlements.

Perhaps it is time that you heard their voices as well. Likewise,
it is time for all in the Islamic world to understand the heart and
compassion of the people of Israel.

So Forum Contributors: There are more than just two sides to
every conflict. There are many sides. It is not that simple, Allah
Almighty knows the heart of all mankind - He (S.W.T) knows we
are complex, sinful, unstable, untruthful and biased.
--------------
I used the illustration of the Union occupation of the North
Carolina and yet there is more than one viewpoint of the Civil
War. The moral reason for that war was slavery, to the South it
was the Constitutional interpretation of State Rights, to the North,
it was the Union forever. Yet the Slave, the Northerner and the
Southerner seeked the divine intervention of the Prophet Jesus
(pbuh) to petition Allah Almighty for their cause.

To those who had the priviledge in observing the speeches and
motions of Congress in its puplic chambers, you will notice,
that on the more formal occasions, they refer to each others
home state as "Great and Sovereign".
--------------
I come in contact with too young "hot heads" who have been
raised in the Islamic faith - being so energetic and full of
zeal, they can fall away from the true interpretions of the
Holy Qu'ran. I saw several months ago, a video teaching of
Mufti Taha Jaber al-`Alwani who is also a Chaplain, of the
rank of Major in the US Marine Corps. He had returned from
a short call of duty from Guantanamo Bay Naval Station where
he reviewed and inspected the calling of the Chaplains of
Islam and who earnestly serve the detainees and the will of
Allah Almighty.

It is both disturbing and yet chilling - that when the Illegal
Combatants (who are detained for the wars duration) are
explained, confronted with, and asked to independently seek, and read the True and Holy Qu'ran, they see the errors of their interpretations and those of the false teachers of the faith. Sadly, not all have done so, many are still filled with falsehoods and
pride.

(Pride is the fall of mankind, it is the root cause of conflict
and it is the opposite of submission to the one true God - Allah
Almighty.)
--------------
* A special reply to the esteemed ibrodsky. I carefully read the
Terms and Conditions of these forums prior to submitting. I thank
you for reminding me of its existence and I have carefully re-read
them.

Throughtout these forums, I have read the many denigrations and
misinterpretations of Islam and its people who have faith in Him
(S.W.T) And Yet, I will accept and defend theirs, and your
inalienable right to do so.

Likewise:
Having lived in the greatest country ever and help defend and
uphold the Constitution of this blessed land. I wish to remind
you that I too have that right to both free speech, and my faith.

I "Proselytize" no one, nor respond to Ad Hominems.

But in all that I do, in all that I am, in all that I express
- I praise the Holy Name of Allah The Almighty, Creator of The
Universe. You are of course free to interprept my contributions
as you see fit. If my contributions are in any offensive to you
ibrodsky - it was never my intention. It is never easy. I can
understand the challenge of tolerance and democracy to many.

It is also the expressed right of this Forums' Hosts having
interpreted my contributions, to terminate my association with
this fine forum at any time.
---------------
* Greetings to the esteemed SteveMetch,

If I may respectfully quote your writtings, you say that I:
"seem knowledgeable about Islam". I have some knowledge and
faith, but I am forever His (S.W.T) learning student and servant.
Allah Almighty is not done with me yet.

I Thank your for your good questions that reflects a deep desire
and keenness on understanding the teachings of Islam. Islam is
the fountain of guidance, the source of happiness and the repose
of purity and chastity.

But, I must respectfully defer to answer and honor this excellent
Forum's subject and discussion at hand entitled: "Despite
massacres of Jews, Israel talks peace". We may stray into unintended discussions.

(my humble contribution is: that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza must be dimantled for a lasting peace in the region)

I trust that you will understand SteveMetch. Perhaps we may discuss your great questions and sincere concerns at a much more approriate forum.
------------------
* To the esteemed L@mplighterM

I asked that we petition our Honorable Congressmen for justice in
Palestine. But, while we can improve on it, its a good start for a
prayer L@mplighterM.

Also remember, A Victory is with the battle control systems in
Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, the forward bases in Camp
Doha, Kuwait, logistics in Qatar and Bahrain and home of the US
Persian Gulf Fleet, the support bases to the Special Forces in
Jordan, the fighter strike forces in Turkey (in NATO) the sacrifices
of the Kurds on the ground, the calm of the Iranian people, and
hopes and dreams of the Iraqi people who await liberation.
-------------------------

I look forward to further replys from all the esteemed and good
Forum Contributors. Please accept my apologies for both my very long post and that I may not respond promptly, this week.

Most important: please remember, it is Allah Almighty
that knows best, and knows all.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you all.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

L@mplighterM
07-22-2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Labeeb B]
* To the esteemed L@mplighterM

I asked that we petition our Honorable Congressmen for justice in
Palestine. But, while we can improve on it, its a good start for a
prayer L@mplighterM.

Also remember, A Victory is with the battle control systems in
Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, the forward bases in Camp
Doha, Kuwait, logistics in Qatar and Bahrain and home of the US
Persian Gulf Fleet, the support bases to the Special Forces in
Jordan, the fighter strike forces in Turkey (in NATO) the sacrifices
of the Kurds on the ground, the calm of the Iranian people, and
hopes and dreams of the Iraqi people who await liberation.
-------------------------

[/B]



I don?t think there?s any need to petition Congress unless it?s for the annihilation of a few Muslim states. I love peace and I?ll go to any length to achieve it. Put the nuclear arsenal to use starting with Baghdad. I?m sure your Allah would spare every peace loving Muslim so I wouldn?t be concerned with collateral damage.

thatwhy
07-24-2002, 02:15 AM
Isreal/Palestine issue - the real issue that many failed to see !


Editorial
First, stop land grab
LAST Tuesday, Palestinians disguised as Israeli soldiers ambushed a bus in a Jewish West Bank settlement, killing eight persons. The next day, Palestinian bombers struck in Tel Aviv, killing at least three. These attacks have shattered the relative calm that Israeli civilians have enjoyed in the four weeks since June 20, when the Israeli army began its re-occupation of West Bank towns. Palestinians, of course, enjoyed precious little of that calm, for Israeli soldiers killed 40 of them in that period, at least 22 of them unarmed civilians, according to an Israeli human rights group, B'Tselem. But what are 40 dead Palestinians? After all, Palestinian lives are nowhere near as precious as Israeli ones. That, at any rate, is the message conveyed by a smug Israeli government spokesman, who, in response to the latest Palestinian attacks, said: 'There was a lot of talk about alleviating the situation of the Palestinians who live in very harsh surroundings. Now we will not be able to do that.'

Of course not. Nothing has been done for 35 years, so why begin now - or tomorrow, for that matter, or the day after, or eons from now?

In the meantime, the United States is doing little to change this tragic situation. Last week, at a meeting of the so-called Quartet group - the US, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations - US Secretary of State Colin Powell confirmed that the US had abandoned plans for a regional peace conference, arguing that getting 'a better handle' of the security situation was the priority. United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan had the obvious retort to this position. 'Even if the security track gains some traction,' he pointed out, 'unless we show some progress on the other tracks, that would not work, that would also fail.' Mr Powell had the same view a month ago, before he was upended by President George W. Bush. Now Washington agrees with Tel Aviv that security is the priority, that there must be peace before there are peace talks. But they are not going to get peace, and they will not get security either. That is the message of the latest Palestinian attacks.

The Quartet did reaffirm its commitment to creating a Palestinian state within three years, and Mr Powell did say that he would soon present new ideas for security cooperation between Israel and a restructured Palestinian security force. These are positive developments, as is America's continued engagement with moderate Arab states, whose foreign ministers were in Washington last week. Mr Bush and Mr Powell, however, should heed the words of Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher, who noted that everything the US wanted from the Palestinians was upfront and immediate, but what it wanted from Israel was delayed and conditional on the will of the Israeli government. The US needs to 'create links between the obligations of both sides,' as Mr Maher put it, and must do so fast to remain an honest broker. In this regard, nothing will contribute more to restoring US credibility in the region than a determined push to force Israel's withdrawal from its settlements in the occupied territories. The continued building and expansion of settlements - according to B'Tselem, they now effectively constitute 41.9 per cent of the West Bank alone - are in flagrant contravention of the Oslo accords and international law, but the US has done nothing about it, other than issue the occasional bromide. So Mr Bush wants to stop Palestinian terror? Well, stop this

elke
07-24-2002, 02:30 AM
More propaganda. Here is the reply:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1168&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Mediocrates
07-24-2002, 03:19 AM
thatwhy

Your last post is clearly from somewhere/someone else. If you are just going to blind paste someone else's words you don't need to be here and will get bounced.