The 2 perspectives

[rhodescholar]

People considering the plight of israel can be divided into 2 camps:

-those who see israel's placement of troops in mainly palestinian towns and its current effect on the local population, without addressing the historical reasons WHY the troops are there. This group sees the conflict as strictly an occupying power lording over helpless civilians, trying to conquer their land. This group ignores the fact that the pal population is only a small part of the 300+ million arabs surrounding israel, and the terrorism which occurred in equal volume to today's before 1967.

-and those who see the current arab uprising as a long, 80 year war to destroy first the jews, then the whole established nation of israel. This second group obviously takes into account the long history of arab terrorism going back to the early 20th century, including the hebron massacre, the murder of Susan Kenyas and her 2 small children, etc in addition to the 4 wars started by arab nations. Plus teh almost daily (if not hourly) proclamations from arab leadership about "drenching the land of israel" with jewish blood.

As long as the former group is only willing to view the present situation within the narrow framework of "today", without applying any historical context, there can not be a resolution.

It really comes down to this, as the Left loves to criticise Israeli policy, but has never offered any kind of solution to deal with those terrorists seeking to destroy israel.

If israel were to declare one day, that it would just leave the WB and Gaza and did, and the terrorism continued, then what?

What if the terrorism continued for another 6 months after israel had pulled out? What about 10 years? How long would it have to occur before the Leftist fools/arab apologists realized that the occupation of the WB/Gaza has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the pal/israeli conflict?

This is why the Left has lost al of its credibility in the US, Israel, and despite the press reports to the contrary, across most of Europe. Before you attack this point, look at how the euros have elected so many rightist govts in the last few years.

Anyway, i am almost hoping israel calls the bluff of the arabs, and pulls out. It would be another lebanon, where the arabs would just find another excuse to attack. Would the fool Leftists at that point come to defend israel? Would they ever?

[ibrodsky]

On one hand, if Israel did withdraw completely from the West Bank it would show the world that this is not the Palestinians' real complaint.

On the other hand, it would put roughly 200,000 Jews living in the West Bank in mortal danger. There would surely be a massacre. Plus, terrorism in Israel would increase sharply.

The question is this: of Israel completely withdrew would the world change sides and support Israel if Palestinian terrorism continued?

Surely, most of the world would just go along with whatever excuses the Palestinian terrorists offered. But Israel might win some key new supporters, and U.S. resolve to support Israel would be strengthened.

Unfortunately, a complete pullout is out of the question. Israel does not need to make itself vulnerable to massive terrorism just to prove it is the victim.

However, Israel could work with leaders of other countries to orchestrate a pullout from all Palestinian cities and demand that Palestinians respond to this gesture by halting terrorist attacks. Put the burden on the Palestinians to show they are interested in peace.

If Israel did a better job of public relations, they could pull out and say to the world "Now let's all watch and see what happens." If EU leaders backed this plan, and the attacks resumed, the EU leaders would have little alternative but to admit that Israel's positive steps were simply exploited by Palestinian terrorists.

The remaining problem is the ridiculus claim that the terrorists are "fringe groups" not supported or winked at by the PA. Thus, Israel is supposed to simply absorb attacks from these groups while the PA pretends to oppose them.

[Labeeb]

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace
and blessings be upon His Messenger (pbuh).

Greetings to all esteemed Forum Contributors.

In all the world, aside from a very few units in the US
Marines and perhaps the 82nd Airborne, the British SAS:
There is no braver, resourceful and courageours combat
soldier than the Golani Infantry of the Northern Command.

27 members of that magnificent unit signed the following:
We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of
the Israel Defense Forces.......
........
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in
order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire
people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the
Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s
defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve
this purpose - and we shall take no part in them.
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

-----------------------------------------------------
Two days ago, those same courageous souls purchased
the following ad in Haaretz, July 24 2002
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:04 AM
(Translated from Hebrew in Ha'aretz July 24)

A FEW QUESTIONS TO THE PILOT OF THE F-16D

Those who took part in the liquidation of Salah Shehadeh
and 14* other human beings, among them 6 children, and
2 babies (and 150 wounded).

1) Do you know the concept "manifestly illegal order"?

2) Is the order which you followed one of them?

3) Is there a limit to what you would be willing to do?

4) When you were briefed about your mission - did
you to try to check that there wouldn't be innocent
civilians in the house you were going to bombard?

5) If you knew there were, didn't you hesitate, at least
for a short moment, before you pulled the trigger?

6) Do you justify the death of children, babies because
of the sins of their father?

7) Arent' you the elite of the soldiers? Aren't pilots
considered the spearpoint of the armed forces as well
as the Israeli society - also for their moral standards?

8) Do you remember that there were times that we would have
canceled an action when the susipicion rose that innocents
may be hit? - because such were the values according to
which we were brought up, and because these were the norms
of the armed forces which we joined?

9) And these were the norms we were proud of?

10) Nearly unnoticed the State of Israel has turned into
a state which doesn't scruple using whatever means
in order to achieve its political aims.

---------------------------
I believe, no I *MUST* believe; that Israelis know deep in
their hearts that once they stop humiliating and oppressing
the Palestinians, allow malnourished Palestinian children to
recieve food and vitamins, to end its 35 day old curfew and
allow the children outside to play and, dismantle its settlements
- Israel will return to become a safe and secure democratic
Israel living next to a viable Palestinian State.

Is it not true, that sometimes it takes more courage to
refuse to follow and commit a crime - than it is, to just
"go along with the program"?

I end this post with the following quote that is used quite
often by my Mufti who teaches the Only True Word of Allah
Almighty.

Rabbi Hillel "The Elder" (pbuh):

" What is hateful to you, do not to others. "
--------------

Allah Almighty knows best.

May His (S.W.T) Peace be upon you.

very respectfully,
Labeeb

[Labeeb]

Please remember that the mercy of Allah Almighty is upon the
occupation soldiers no matter how many times they commit a
a crime against the innocent -

He will restore you. That is because Allah is Forgiving and
Merciful.

Allah Almighty speaks to us:

'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls!
despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins:
for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Az-Zumar: 53)

I thank you all

Allah Almighty knows best.

[L@mplighterM]

Salaam Lamb chops

I think that pilots get to much flak personally I believe they are just doing their job based on intelligence. If it was bad intelligence it?s certainly not the pilots fault he?s just part of a whole and I think that he did a splendid job the bomb was right on target and for that he should be commended.

It?s certainly a bad thing that the terrorist leaders try to find sanctuary among civilians. Perhaps this will be a lesson to the terrorists.

I hope you spend more time bashing Radical Muslims than innocent Jews. Personally I would glaze the WB and GS until it?s devoid of cockroaches so from my point of view the leadership of IDF is extremely tolerant.

Tell your Commander in Chief that he should inform his children not to **** with Jews if he?s against collateral damage.

I hope you don?t find my post hateful.

[elke]

Labeeb, I really appreciate your respectful tone. It's truly refreshing to see it.

What would be your idea of an ideal solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem?

[ibrodsky]

Labeeb,

Up until now I have appreciated your "respectful tone."

But I also look at what really matters: content.

Your complaint about Palestinian civilians killed in the F-16 attack is legitimate. Though the children who died were almost certainly being indoctrinated to kill innocent Israelis, that was not their fault.

Your one-sided concern for innocent lives, however, and obvious willingness to distract attention from the fact that the raid killed a profoundly evil terrorist, demonstrate the purpose behind your "respectful tone."

Today, Palestinian terrorists killed another four Israeli civilians. I think it's safe to say that apologists for Palestinian terrorism will be trying to get mileage out of the F-16 attack long after another 15 Israeli women, children, and elderly are killed by barbarians who have no other goal than to kill innocents.

I know more Palestinians have died in this conflict than Israelis. But the vast majority were combatants, and the IDF does not purposely kill civilians. Plus, unfortunately there are people who distort Islam and convince people that it is noble and rewarding to kill randomly. They are more than just willing to throw away human lives. Who could forget Iran's "human wave" attacks during their war with Iraq?

The insincere "Of course, we are against all forms of terrorism" statements from Muslims like you don't wash.

Palestinians started this war. They have willingly gone along with Yaser Arafat and built an entire culture around death and destruction. They recruit terrorists starting in Kindergarten and younger, they support terrorists, and they glorify mass murder.

As I have shown in two other threads, far more innocent Israelis have been killed. And why is that? Because Palestinian society has embraced evil.

I congratule the F-16 pilot who eliminated the evil Shehada. In order to prevent more loss of innocent lives, the world should be demanding that Palestinian terrorists groups -- who are no better than Al Qaeda -- be crushed.

When you cut & paste material about the very small number of Israelis who oppose Israel's just war against evil, you show that you are just another run-of-the-mill apologist for terrorism.

[ibrodsky]

P.S.: The Koran is very clear in condemning hypocrites. Islamists who engineer death and destruction are fond of accusing others of doing Satan's bidding.

Isn't it ironic?

[danholo]

Originally posted by trainspotter18


same with Jewish extremists in Israel. Isn't it ironic?

Well no, since there is no Satan in Judaism. In other words, what you are talking is BS yet again.

[danholo]

ts18,

You are correct with your Jewish explanation of Satan, I admit.
When a Jew accuses a person of evil, he does not accuse Satan, but the person himself.

[gev]

Originally posted by rhodescholar
People considering the plight of israel can be divided into 2 camps:

-those who see israel's placement of troops in mainly palestinian towns and its current effect on the local population, without addressing the historical reasons WHY the troops are there. This group sees the conflict as strictly an occupying power lording over helpless civilians, trying to conquer their land. This group ignores the fact that the pal population is only a small part of the 300+ million arabs surrounding israel, and the terrorism which occurred in equal volume to today's before 1967.

-and those who see the current arab uprising as a long, 80 year war to destroy first the jews, then the whole established nation of israel. This second group obviously takes into account the long history of arab terrorism going back to the early 20th century, including the hebron massacre, the murder of Susan Kenyas and her 2 small children, etc in addition to the 4 wars started by arab nations. Plus teh almost daily (if not hourly) proclamations from arab leadership about "drenching the land of israel" with jewish blood.


If we analyze the difference between the Left and the Right throughout the history of Israel, you can see the basic difference: the importance of Land.

The Left throughout the years of the conflict saw the land of Israel as a MEAN to accomplish the goals of the state of Israel and not part of the GOALs of Israel.

The Right wing saw Land as part of the Goals: at first they wanted the two sides of the The Jordan River.
Now they will settle for only the West-Bank and Gaza.

When I listen to the argument of people from the Right-Wing they always blame the left for negociating with terrorists, they say: "we told you all along" and so on and so forth.

but when I ask: "if terror would stop, and there will be a palestinian leadership who will truely care for peace, would you be for retreating the occupied land?"
then you see the real reason for everyother arguments: "No," he will say, "why should we, it's Israel too, you want to transfer jews? peace for peace and not peace for land " and so on.

To summarize it I see the moderate Right who wants to fight the palestinians and make them suffer in order to make them UNDERSTAND that terror would get them nowhere, The Extreme Right know that terrorists will never "Understand" anything they are Fanats so the only possibility is to transfer them from here (they dont realize that they will not go away if we transfer them, so it wouldn't help)


If we look at the Left, we will see the Extreme left who says that if only we give the palestinians the West Bank and Gaza they will stop Terror. (They have very short memory or they build in their mind a new history in order to base their arguments)

on the other hand there is The Center-Left (which in my opinion is the majority of the country) who see that there are all kinds of motives for Terrorism, and until Terror is not stopped there will be nothing to talk about with the other side, BUT when there will be another palestinian leadership who truely wants peace they would be ready to give up the land, dismantle settlements and live in peace near a supervised pro-peace palestinian state who borders with Israel in more or less in the Pre-1967 border.

Ariel Sharon for example is closer to this wing than to the right wing.



What if the terrorism continued for another 6 months after israel had pulled out? What about 10 years? How long would it have to occur before the Leftist fools/arab apologists realized that the occupation of the WB/Gaza has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the pal/israeli conflict?


The occupation of the WB/GAZA is PART of the problem, and a very large one too. we would have been in a better situation if for example there wouldn't be any settlements. Every Security expert in Israel agrees that they are a Bone stuck in the IDF throat the only reason they are not dismantled is "to not give the terror a prize", that's it.


The Extreme Left has really lost all credibility (and so did the Extreme Right wing), but the Center-Left has not, and actually it is the biggest political power in Israel, it is the silent majority that in the next election or afterwards we will se a party that will capture this majority, It will consist of Peres, Ben-Eliezer, Sharon and Ramon, they all have very similar opinions.

[ibrodsky]

Gev,

Very interesting -- particularly your observation that Sharon is closer to the center-left than to the right. I think this is obviously correct, and the only "evidence" that he is an "extreme right-wing" leader is Arab propaganda.

However, I think your analysis is a bit off in terms of cause and effect. The settlements are not the cause of the current conflict, but they are a major excuse. I think most Israeli leaders would give up the West Bank and Gaza for a real peace deal. However, that doesn't mean the settlements were wrong or must be dismantled.

Recheck your recent history facts. The Arabs did not even consider negotiating with Israel until after Israel started to build settlements.

Second, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a Jewish minority living in "Palestine" just as there is an Arab minority living in Israel.

[gev]

Gev,

Very interesting -- particularly your observation that Sharon is closer to the center-left than to the right. I think this is obviously correct, and the only "evidence" that he is an "extreme right-wing" leader is Arab propaganda.



Ofcourse, Extreme Leftists in Europe and Israel and Arabs would like him to be, because then it puts their "precious" Yasser Arafat off the hook, Unfortanately sometimes Sharon plays in their hand, But sometimes he doesn't: they didn't like his statement for "painful sacrificises for peace", they didn't like his objection in the likud party for denying a palestinian state ever to be existed.

Sharon should continue with these statements if he want to win PR. and if he wants Yasser Arafat out.

The situation is sometimes described as if there are two extreme leaders in both sides, and thats why nothing is advancing towards peace, Sharon should show it isn't true.


However, I think your analysis is a bit off in terms of cause and effect. The settlements are not the cause of the current conflict, but they are a major excuse. I think most Israeli leaders would give up the West Bank and Gaza for a real peace deal. However, that doesn't mean the settlements were wrong or must be dismantled.




Second, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a Jewish minority living in "Palestine" just as there is an Arab minority living in Israel.




I hear that argument alot, but I don't think it is serious...
Do you really think that there would be Jews who would like to live in a palestinian state instead of Israel, just to make a point?


Recheck your recent history facts. The Arabs did not even consider negotiating with Israel until after Israel started to build settlements.


Just because PUBLIC negotiations has started when there were already settlements in the occupied terretories, doesn't mean it was an incentive, I think that without the settlements there would have been negotiations too (The Arab public demanded from their leader the Occupied land back, The Arab leaders, knowing they can't get it with war, has decided getting it through negotiations).

[cerulean]

There is a small percentage of Finns who live peaceably in Sweden, and a small percentage of Swedes who live peaceably in Finland. This type of population pattern is typical all over the world.

And, of course, there are Arabs who live in Israel. It should be eminently reasonable that there would be Jews who live in a hypothetical Palestinian state (if indeed one actually should be created). The fact that this idea is dismissed as impossible indicates why a Palestinian state is not currently a feasible idea.

[gev]

There is a small percentage of Finns who live peaceably in Sweden, and a small percentage of Swedes who live peaceably in Finland. This type of population pattern is typical all over the world.

And, of course, there are Arabs who live in Israel. It should be eminently reasonable that there would be Jews who live in a hypothetical Palestinian state (if indeed one actually should be created). The fact that this idea is dismissed as impossible indicates why a Palestinian state is not currently a feasible idea.


I don't think so, I think it is in the best interest of the Jews themselves living in the settelments to return to Israel, Why live in an arab state as a minority, what interest would they have in doing so, instead of living and contributing to israel?

I think the idea should be dismissed by the israelies themselves, and it is actually being offered now as some sort of a threat for Israeli politicians: "if you give up the WestBank and Gaza, we will stay there..."
But I don't think that it should be taken seriousely (and I dont think it has actually)

[danholo]

The "Swedes" in Finland are actually Finnish.
Some of them are descendants of Swedes and some are Finnish that adopted Swedish culture, when it was the way of "the elite" in Finland.
There is a Finnish minority of 250,000 in Sweden today.
They are either descendants of Finns or newcomers.

[signupforpeace]

a lot of interesting opinions here - even th eextremes teach simple lessons - the msg seems really clear if people really want peace they must commit themselves to it - sounds easy ! it is ! but people are distracted, they feel they need an enemy, someone to isolate so as to deal better witht the situation - without an individual commitment to peace how can there ever be a collective one...

www.signupforpeace.com

[gev]

Originally posted by danholo
The "Swedes" in Finland are actually Finnish.
Some of them are descendants of Swedes and some are Finnish that adopted Swedish culture, when it was the way of "the elite" in Finland.
There is a Finnish minority of 250,000 in Sweden today.
They are either descendants of Finns or newcomers.

cerulean, can we really expect settlers community merges with the palestinian community in the once (?) established palestinian state?!! before that happens some things should happen first: the Massiah coming, hell freezes...

[Vic]

Originally posted by gev
cerulean, can we really expect settlers community merges with the palestinian community in the once (?) established palestinian state?!! before that happens some things should happen first: the Massiah coming, hell freezes... Gev, Cerulean has written:It should be eminently reasonable that there would be Jews who live in a hypothetical Palestinian state (if indeed one actually should be created). The fact that this idea is dismissed as impossible indicates why a Palestinian state is not currently a feasible idea.and I tend to agree with her. What is this putative Palestinian state worth if it wouldn't be able to treat a Jewish minority decently? Whether it should satisfy all of the current settlers' claims would be a different issue altogether. But if Jews residing in this Palestinian state would have to fear for their lives, then I don't know whether it is a good idea to establish it at all.

[Mediocrates]

It should be eminently reasonable that there would be Jews who live in a hypothetical Palestinian state


Only if you also assume that the establishment of an actual state is the real goal. It isn't. The real goal is the elimination of Israel by proxy. The arab states don't want an independent Palistine any more than they want free elections and nominal equality and republicanism in their own countries. A 'free' Palistine is nothing more than a puppet state at the sharp point of the spear of Arab radicalism. You don't seriously think that the Arab states would consent to keep Arafat around unless he served that purpose, do you?

Not only can't there be any Jews in Palistine but it's debateable whether the Arab states would permit even Palistinians there beyond the barest pathetic subsistance existence.

[Mediocrates]

for the 7th time, is a free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine?

[Gatorade]

Originally posted by gev

The Right at first they wanted the two sides of the The Jordan River. Now they will settle for only the West-Bank and Gaza.

To summarize it I see the moderate Right who wants to fight the palestinians and make them suffer in order to make them UNDERSTAND that terror would get them nowhere, The Extreme Right know that terrorists will never "Understand" anything they are Fanatics so the only possibility is to transfer them from here (they dont realize that they will not go away if we transfer them, so it wouldn't help)

If we look at the Left, we will see the Extreme left who says that if only we give the palestinians the West Bank and Gaza they will stop Terror. (They have very short memory or they build in their mind a new history in order to base their arguments)

On the other hand there is The Center-Left (which in my opinion is the majority of the country) who see that there are all kinds of motives for Terrorism, and until Terror is not stopped there will be nothing to talk about with the other side, BUT when there will be another palestinian leadership who truely wants peace they would be ready to give up the land, dismantle settlements and live in peace near a supervised pro-peace palestinian state who borders with Israel in more or less in the Pre-1967 border.

Ariel Sharon for example is closer to this wing than to the right wing.

The Extreme Left has really lost all credibility (and so did the Extreme Right wing), but the Center-Left has not, and actually it is the biggest political power in Israel, it is the silent majority that in the next election or afterwards we will se a party that will capture this majority, It will consist of Peres, Ben-Eliezer, Sharon and Ramon, they all have very similar opinions. [/B]

Very nice analysis

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
for the 7th time, is a free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine?

What, no answer? Coward.