Hamas Terrorist Salah Shehada Eliminated

[NewsGuy]

The Middle East and perhaps the entire world will be a better place today, after the IDF eliminated arch-terrorist Salah Shehada for assasination, a vicious Hamas mass murderer responsible for the gruesome masscares of dozens of innocent Israelis.

The Israeli press reported that Shehada was the founder of the militant Hamas movement in the Gaza Strip and the No. 1 man on the Israel Defense Force's wanted list in the last two years.

According to the Chicago Tribune, "residents said the target was the headquarters of a Palestinian intelligence agency."

Israeli airforce planes, including apparently 2 F-16s hovered outside the building and one of them fired a missile at their target, killing Shehada, together with his wife and 3 of his children.

This from Haaretz:

Shehada, 40, was the commander of Iz a-Din el Kassam, the military wing of Hamas, and served as a close personal aide to the movement's spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. In addition to his extensive involvement in terror activity, he developed had gradually developed his reputation as a leader with religious authority and was seen as a possible future heir to Yassin.

Shehada's involvement in Hamas stretched back to the beginning of the first intifada, at the end of 1987, and he spent time in Israeli jails.

Shin Bet officials say he orchestrated the attack on an pre-army training course in the settlement of Atzmona in which five students were killed, and the infiltration into the "Africa" outpost near Kibbutz Kerem-Shalom in which four IDF soldiers were killed. He was also involved in the production of the "Kassam" rockets which were fired at settlements and into Israel.

Shehada cooperated closely with two other men high on Israel's wanted list in the Strip - Mohammed Deif and Adnan el Roul. In recent months the security establishment received information that Shehada was making contact with Hamas members in the West Bank, despite the physical separation between the two areas, and that movement members in Nablus were receiving orders from him.

Israel tried to kill Shehada on several occasions but he always managed to escape. Aware that the IDF was hunting him, Shehada spent long periods underground.

* * *

Unfortunately, a few of Shehada's neighbors were also killed or injured, which is the price paid by some Palestinians as a result of terrorists hiding among the civilian population. I am truly sorry for the civilian casualties of the war against Arab terrorism and wish that the terrorists would have the backbone to display even a shred of human compassion for their fellow Palestinians by separating themselves from civilians.

[Formula]

The whole world is now a better place indeed.

It does suck that civilians were killed, but atleast they werent specifically targeted.

[NewsGuy]

In the past few minutes, the news unfortunately changed to report that Shehada was in fact only injured and not eliminated.

That is too bad, and I presume that the IDF will return to finish the job, if this latest update is true.

[Formula]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
In the past few minutes, the news unfortunately changed to report that Shehada was in fact only injured and not eliminated.

That is too bad, and I presume that the IDF will return to finish the job, if this latest update is true.

Damn! Looks like This (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20020722_551.html) article was incorrect!

[NewsGuy]

Yes, Reuters, Associated Press, ABC, BBC, etc., all reported that the vermin was killed.

Now those reports are being changed to say that Shehada was only injured.

I edited my original post to reflect the update, but I very much hope that those IAF F-16s make a quick U-turn and finish the job.

[Formula]

We can only hope....

But for some reason I doubt it will happen, Just doesn't seem right.. :(

[danholo]

I hate Saeb Erekat. Almost everything he says is lies.
Immediately he reported casualties at 150 or so.

As for the attack, it's unfortunate that the taget was not, indeed, eliminated.
I have been to several news sites, but I didn't find any updates that the target was only injured.
An F-16 missile is pretty efficient when used. It's most unlikely that the target wasn't eliminated, but only time will tell.

[alexbmn]

Haeretz and Israeli sources confirm that the bastard has been killed. And some more scum died with him. and in an airstrike.Finally a better demonstration of Israeli power.

[danholo]

Every site I've been to claim the terrorist to be killed!
Nothing supports the claim of him only being injured, why did you say that he was only injured?

It's sad though that many innocents were killed... They didn't do anyting, even if they did support suicide bombings.
These terrorists are inhumane because they live among civilians.
Actually, terrorists are civilians.
This is unfortunate, but these people were not deliberately targeted unlike terrorist barbarians who only attempt to create havoc by killing women, elderly and children.
Least thing Israel could do is to compensate for the innocent people who were injured and their homes lost.

Still, I HATE Saeb Erekat. He's a lying machine. When is the IDF going to silence him?!

[danholo]

Now I'm getting info that the bastard was not killed!
AARGH!
I guess only time will tell.......

[alexbmn]

Tuesday, July 23, 2002 Av 14, 5762 Israel Time: 03:46 (GMT+3)




Last update - 03:15 23/07/2002


Israel kills Hamas founder in Gaza in air strike

By Amos Harel, Ha'aretz Correspondent and Agencies




In what military sources called one of the most significant strikes since the start of the intifada 20 months ago, an Israeli warplane blew up a house in Gaza in the early hours of Tuesday morning, killing Salah Shehada, the head of the Hamas military wing in the Strip and the No. 1 man on the Israel Defense Force's wanted list in the last two years.

According to initial reports, a total of 10 Palestinians were killed in the strike, including Shehada's wife and three children. Dozens of people were wounded.

Israeli sources confirmed the airstrike in Gaza and the fact that Shehada had been killed. Eye-witnesses said an F-16 warplane fired a missile that levelled five houses in a Gaza City neighbourhood.

[Formula]

At least 10 people have been killed and dozens more injunred in an Israeli attack on a residential building in Gaza.

An Israeli plane attacked a two-storey building in the north of Gaza City, which is reported to belong to Salah Shahada - the founder of the military wing of Hamas.

A BBC correspondent in Jerusalem says Mr Shahada was number one on the Israeli list of wanted Palestinians in Gaza.

The Israeli military has yet to comment on the attack.

Anyone else find that to be sugar-coated as hell? Its pretty much saying israel attacked a residential area to kill some random innocent military leader. I freakin' hate the BBC :rolleyes:


Check the rest of the article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2145267.stm).

[alexbmn]

Danholo Israel should apologize for anything.That the"Galut Mentality" apologizing for efforts to defend themselves.Those civilians were collateral damage. I've long waited for such an attack.Israel must terrorise the terrorists.Remember Operation Wrath of God, when the Mossad killed by accident a Morrocan waiter instead a force 17 operative who planned the Munich massacre? Did they apologize? hell No.(of course in 1996 after they were castrated by the peace process they felt the need to apologize). If you watch documentaries or read articles about Israel from 1948 to 1993,it seems that was a different country.

[Moon]

Ok, I'm confused.. is the animal dead or what?

[NewsGuy]

Latest from the BBC:

Initially, Hamas said that Mr Shahada had been killed in the attack.

But later Hamas official Ismail Haniyeh said only that his wife and three of his children had died.

It is still not clear whether Mr Shahada himself was killed, with some reports saying that he was wounded.

[ibrodsky]

It's official: the piece of human garbage has been eliminated.

Hamas vows revenge. No more nice guys.

Good. They want a fight. Let them have it.

[Formula]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
It's official: the piece of human garbage has been eliminated.

Hamas vows revenge. No more nice guys.

Good. They want a fight. Let them have it.

Brings a big grin to my face... :D

[ibrodsky]

There have been no fewer than 4 different reports by Palestinians about Shahada:

1. He wasn't at home
2. He was badly injured but is in stable condition
3. No one knows if he is dead or alive; they are still searching the rubble
4. He was killed

I doubt Israel would have launched this attack without solid intelligence that Shahada was at home. He was known to spend a good deal of time underground.

Israeli officials seem quite confident that he was killed. Usually, when Israel is unsure of the result they withhold comment.

[alexbmn]

there are conflicting reports.What troubles me is the there's an update in Jpost saying he's alive.

[alexbmn]

even i f he managed to survive,this marks a new tactic by Israel.They are no longer attacking empty buildings. For the last few weeks Gaza has been getting the IDF's attention.

[NewsGuy]

The story is still unfolding.

The Israeli Broadcast Authority says it is not clear whether Shehada is still alive or not, but that the IDF says he was hit.

[alexbmn]

you know if he has a piece of a missile in his ass or leg blown off thats good too.

[ibrodsky]

It's amazing that 8 hours after the attack there are still conflicting reports. Shahada never showed up at the hospital, but perhaps Hamas has taken him elsewhere.

It's also possible they are still searching for him.

Then again, we may never know the truth. Hamas may not want to admit they lost such a senior leader. Contrary to warnings that such attacks just create more terrorists, it's more likely that they severely damage Hamas' recruitment efforts.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by alexbmn
you know if he has a piece of a missile in his ass or leg blown off thats good too.

:D

[NewsGuy]

Think of all the dead and wounded as a result of this one Palestinian terrorist Shehada, both those Israelis who were massacred by him and the scores of wounded and their families whose entire lives were damaged by this hateful individual. Add to those, these latest victims of Palestinian terrorism who were killed during the Israeli attempt in self-defense to eliminate the terrorist.

Now you start to get the picture of the enormous harm caused both to Israelis and Palestinians by Salah Shehada and the Palestinian quest for Jihad. How unnecessary, really...

Had the Palestinians abandoned terrorism and accepted the Israeli 97% offer for peace, all this could have been avoided.

I hope that today's lesson that the IDF will reach into any place where Palestinian terrorists hide, will serve as a deterrent to future Palestinian terrorism and provide momentum for peace.

[ibrodsky]

Saeb Erekat calls IDF killing of Hamas leader `despicable` war crime dealing a blow to peace (Reuters)

Seems like he is dead again.

[ibrodsky]

That was from Ha'aretz, which seems to be sticking to its report that he was killed. However, in the actual Reuters report, Erekat doesn't say whether or not Shahada was killed.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
I hope that today's lesson that the IDF will reach into any place where Palestinian terrorists hide, will serve as a deterrent to future Palestinian terrorism and provide momentum for peace.

We are going to hear many threats over the next day or so -- as if this was an unprovoked Israeli attack on a Palestinian "militant."

But overall it will serve as a deterrent -- particularly if Israel makes it clear that further terrorism will simply mean more hunting down and assassinating terrorist leaders.

[alexbmn]

nobody seems to know where he is.I guess its possible that his decimated face lies under the rubble.

[L@mplighterM]

Jul. 23, 2002
UPDATE: Shahadeh is alive
By DANA M. GOLDBERG

The IDF Spokeswoman's Office announced that Hamas commander Salach Shahadeh was wounded in Israeli airstrikes early Tuesday morning.

Shahadeh's wife and three of his children were killed when the airstrikes hit the building in which they were located.

Israel Radio reported there were more than 100 Palestinians injured in the blast.

Shahadeh planned or authorized multiple terror attacks, including the killing of some yeshiva students in Atzmona (March 2002) and the deaths of 4 IDF soldiers at the Africa Outpost in the Gaza region (January 2002).


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1027328447697


Better luck next time.

[alexbmn]

nope ,nope nope.Read this

08:40
Hamas confirms that the leader of its military wing, Salah Shehada, was killed in Israeli air strike (AP)

Previous news updates on Haeretz showed that his death was also confirmed by al Jazeera and other Arab news sources.


shall we open a bottle of champaigne?

[cerulean]

Yes, the old article saying Shehadeh is alive is right next to an update saying he is dead.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1027328449716

So dead he must be (I don't think resurrection is likely).

I hope Hamas takes this very hard.
Haaretz:
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=189583&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

[danholo]

I do see it as that and nothing more.
But still I don't see the other victims as "collateral damage".
8 of the killed were children I believe, this is apalling in my opinion.
This attack will just be used as "further evidence" of "Israeli aggression", which is pure BS.
But not to act like the terrorists it would be better to avoid civilian casualties.
Why didn't the IDF use Apaches instead of F-16s?
An Apache does far less damage, but I guess an F-16 gets the work done.

[cerulean]

But still I don't see the other victims as "collateral damage".

I don't like the term "collateral damage" either. The deaths of children and innocents are always tragic, but I don't think Israel should get the blame. A brave man would not be hiding behind children to protect him, but that is what Shehadeh was doing.

I also hate to see this as a cost/benefit analysis, but the fact is that Shehadeh has been responsible for so many deaths. The net result is that lives will be saved by his death.

[danholo]

On BBC World news Gideon Meir said that the target was responsible for hundreds of Israeli deaths.
Erekat said in defense that these accusations were lies!
WTF is wrong with that man?! He's an outright liar. I have no idea why they give him air time.
Since the killed terrorist was the founder of the military wing of Hamas almost all the murders of Hamas are HIS fault and that amounts to many innocent casualties.

I think the last attack was indeed a blow to the reviving peace talks. The attack was bound to happen sooner or later but the timing was the worst and it seems that Palestinians and Hamas don't seem too happy about it.
This attack raises more anger among Palestinians and I don't think we'll see peace any time soon.
Might be too that some Israelis/Jews will get their ass kicked big time and I hope that doesn't happen.

[elke]

Saeb Erekat gets air time, because:
1. Arafat and PA are considered "legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people"
2. Saeb Erekat is loyal to Arafat & Co. and they know that he will toe their line. How does anyone know what the guy actually thinks?

Nothing more, nothing less. In their quest for "evenhandedness", the news media are pawns in the PA game. Our job is to prevent as many individuals as possible from falling prey to that game.

[Mediocrates]

Legitimate military action. We regret that non uniformed combatants were harmed. However we make no apologies for civilians who knowingly put themselves in harm's way while OCCUPYING a known residence of those targets.

blah blah blah blah blah. sucks to be you when it comes around to bite you in the ass.

We need one of these actions every day for the next 2 months.

[ibrodsky]

Of course, the EU condemns this attack on the leader of this evil terrorist organization. It goes with fawning all over the Father of Modern Terrorism.

Really, we should think of this as analogous to the US scoring a direct hit on bin Laden.

Would the US, if it had reliable intelligence that Osama bin Laden was sleeping in a building in Islamabad, hesitate to drop a bomb on that building?

I don't think so.

[ibrodsky]

Now that we know that evil man Shehada was killed in the attack, there are a number of questions:

1. Why did Palestinians first report he was killed and then report he was wounded?
2. Why, in fact, did at least one Palestinian official say he was wounded but in "stable condition"?
3. Why did Hamas announce over loudspeakers that he was only wounded?
4. Why wasn't it until about ten hours after the attack that Hamas confirmed he was dead?

I can't help but wonder if there was a disagreement within Hamas about whether or not to admit he was dead.

[cerulean]

Also interesting was that his wife and three of his six daughters were reported killed, and are now reported alive (the reverse of Shehada's situation).

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/international/middleeast/23GAZA.html

The sidebar says Arafat has some influence over Hamas. How exactly would the relationship between Arafat and Hamas be described?

[cerulean]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2002/07/23/national1018EDT0556.DTL
President Bush denounced as "heavy-handed" an Israeli warplane's missile attack on a Gaza City apartment building, which killed a Hamas leader at the top of Israel's most-wanted list and at least 14 other Palestinians, including nine children.

"This heavy-handed action does not contribute to peace," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Tuesday, pointing to "the loss of innocent life."

"This message will be conveyed to Israeli authorities, and the United States regrets the loss of life," the spokesman said.
...
======
The article goes on to say that the US sees no comparison between this event and civilian casualties in Afghanistan.

I'm afraid this move by the White House sends the wrong message to the world.

[danholo]

Why did they carry out the attack saying "there were no civilans near the target", when in fact it was in Gaza City which is one of the most densely populated cities in the world?

[minusthejihad]

I think the last attack was indeed a blow to the reviving peace talks. The attack was bound to happen sooner or later but the timing was the worst and it seems that Palestinians and Hamas don't seem too happy about it.

This attack raises more anger among Palestinians and I don't think we'll see peace any time soon.


What Peace Talks? Not Oslo II? As long as there's guys like this, and Saeb Erakat and Arafat as official backers, ther can't be any Peace, so why should there be Talks? These guys have one job - terrorist - just what would they do if there was peace, pick up a shovel, calculator, or mouse? Unfortunately, I don't think there will ever be peace until Israel eliminates all of these agents of terror and a new Palestinian leadership can safely emerge and prevent the teaching of hate to their children. It's the only way.

And who cares if it increases Palestinian Anger. So, 95 percent will hate Israel and the US instead of 80? As long as Israelis and Americans feel a little safer today, that's whats' important here. Not the feelings of terror supporters. Civilian death is very tragic, but if I knew that the head of the Hamas was living down the hall, I would have moved or taken out a huge life insurance policy.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by danholo
Why did they carry out the attack saying "there were no civilans near the target", when in fact it was in Gaza City which is one of the most densely populated cities in the world?


Because in the spirit of PLO inspired agitprop, there were no actual civilians. People, yes, no civilians. Karma's a bitch ain't it.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean
[url]"This heavy-handed action does not contribute to peace," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Tuesday, pointing to "the loss of innocent life."

"This message will be conveyed to Israeli authorities, and the United States regrets the loss of life," the spokesman said.



Stick to white collar crime, George. You're better at it than foreign policy.

[NewsGuy]

ok, now we just need for Shehada to stay dead...

[L@mplighterM]

This guy must have been part cat or something. I don’t recall ever having read anything similar first he’s dead then he’s alive or was he dead and then it was discovered that he alive. In any event I believe at this point he’ll stay dead unless he falls of a stretcher and runs away during a filming.

[sharonbn]

The evening news broadcast on all channels spoke about the fact that a 1 ton bomb was dropped on the Sheada house.

The military correspondants (Alon Ben David, Roni Daniel) assess that the bomb was an overkill. Ben David further commented that professionals in the air force should have known in advance that a bomb of this manitude will affect more than the one house it was targetting. He said there were likely mistakes done on the tactical and maybe operational levels and that IDF should investigate how was it decided to use this kind of bomb of this on a densely populated area.

I am not saying that Segada did not deserve to die. However I now believe that mistakes were done in the strategic (political) and tactical levels:

1. The timing of the attack is bad, given the decrease in Palestinian terror attacks in the last 2 months. It seemed there is hope of the Intifadah winding down, the Palestinians were pre-occupied in their internal affairs (reform, elections) and IDF operations in the territories were conducted with quiet and calm and almost no objections from the world. Now Israel is back in the headlines as the bad guy and we here are preparing for the worst.

This is not the first time the Israeli government used poor judgement ni choosing the time if the hit. the hit on Raad Carmi in Aug 2001 was done after one week of de-facto cease fire, igniting the violence once again.

2. The IAF used poor judgement in choosing the weapons of the attack. The death and injuries of the civillians could be avoided.

[ibrodsky]

The "lull" in attacks on Israelis was not because the Palestinians are having second thoughts about mass murdering Jews. It is because Israel has reinstituted military rule over most West Bank cities and is able to prevent terrorists in Gaza from entering Israel.

This, not some imagined outbreak of peace, explains the lull.

I suspect that Israel was presented with a rare window of opportunity to nail Shehada. With Hamas talking about a halt in terrorist attacks -- due to the fact they were already being clobbered with assassinations and arrests -- Shehada made the mistake of thinking it was safe for him to sleep at home.

Conclusion: this attack will increase chances of a halt to the intifada. The Palestinians have always responded to Israeli peace overtures by either (1) using the interlude to indoctrinate and arm and (2) by stepping up terrorist attacks.

Only by militarily defeating Palestinian terrorists can there be any hope of peace. This attack helps shatter the illusion that the terrorists are winning and that Israel lacks the will to crush them.

I am sorry about the civilian casualties, particularly the children.

But I think the IDF did a great job and while we might see a few "revenge" attacks the fewer Hamas leaders there are the closer we are to peace.

The world is truly upset. But we have watched attack after attack on Israelis with only obligatory condemnations. It seems that to the Arabs, UN, and EU 20 dead Israelis -- with women, elderly and children the actual targets -- are nothing compared to the "humiliation" of "checkpoints."

[clydekmann]

I have a difficult time understanding why there is never mention of Dresden, when American forces specifically targetted and killed over 100,000 civilians. It put an end to World War II shortly thereafter. Was there any moral outcry from the world? I don't think so!
Unfortunately, Israel is a small power that cannot exercise that option to stop the terrorism. Therefore, the Palestinians get to exercise this option and have most of the free world on their side when doing it. This style of warfare has wreaked havoc on the Israeli psyche.
Forget the world outcry, but imagine what would happen if the Israeli military might leveled one whole town? I am just thinking of Khan Younis, or Jenin for example. I guarantee you would see concessions being made by the Palestinians under Israeli terms, not the Pan Arab and European influence that is occurring now.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by clydekmann
I have a difficult time understanding why there is never mention of Dresden, when American forces specifically targetted and killed over 100,000 civilians. It put an end to World War II shortly thereafter. Was there any moral outcry from the world? I don't think so!
Unfortunately, Israel is a small power that cannot exercise that option to stop the terrorism. Therefore, the Palestinians get to exercise this option and have most of the free world on their side when doing it. This style of warfare has wreaked havoc on the Israeli psyche.
Forget the world outcry, but imagine what would happen if the Israeli military might leveled one whole town? I am just thinking of Khan Younis, or Jenin for example. I guarantee you would see concessions being made by the Palestinians under Israeli terms, not the Pan Arab and European influence that is occurring now.

This is a bit of distortion.

There were no satellite images, laser-guided missiles, or other tools of surgical attack during WW II. Germany was mass murdering and enslaving people in several countries.

It should be clear by now that Israel isn't going to flatten any Palestinian city -- unless her enmies were truly in the process of utterly destroying Israel and such an action offered the only hope of survival.

[alexbmn]

ok people , rememeber a few weeks ago US bombed A WEDDING. FIFTY people killed maybe.Heavy handed?Nah

[Formula]

Originally posted by alexbmn
ok people , rememeber a few weeks ago US bombed A WEDDING. FIFTY people killed maybe.Heavy handed?Nah

LOL.

Yeah i was looking through cnn's website and see in big bold print "ISRAEL BOMBS POOR HELPLESS INNOCENT CIVILIANS" (not exactly, but it was what their were pretty much implying). Then in small print i see "possible bombing of wedding.."

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by clydekmann
I have a difficult time understanding why there is never mention of Dresden, when American forces specifically targetted and killed over 100,000 civilians. It put an end to World War II shortly thereafter. Was there any moral outcry from the world? I don't think so!
Unfortunately, Israel is a small power that cannot exercise that option to stop the terrorism. Therefore, the Palestinians get to exercise this option and have most of the free world on their side when doing it. This style of warfare has wreaked havoc on the Israeli psyche.
Forget the world outcry, but imagine what would happen if the Israeli military might leveled one whole town? I am just thinking of Khan Younis, or Jenin for example. I guarantee you would see concessions being made by the Palestinians under Israeli terms, not the Pan Arab and European influence that is occurring now.

The NY Times on Sunday had a front-page cover article on the US attacks casuing hundreds or thousands of innocent dead civilians. Where was the Amnesty International condemnation for that? was it becuase of the pounding they took from their cries of unfair treatment for those sympathetic detainess in Cuba LOL?

The FACT is is that Israel is a tiny country and does not have the ability to tell the world press and other naitons, like russia did and does over its slaughter of chechnyans, to screw off.

And where are the condemnations for the 2 MILLION christians slaughtered over the past few years in the Sudan by Islamic filth?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn

1. The timing of the attack is bad, given the decrease in Palestinian terror attacks in the last 2 months. It seemed there is hope of the Intifadah winding down, the Palestinians were pre-occupied in their internal affairs (reform, elections) and IDF operations in the territories were conducted with quiet and calm and almost no objections from the world. Now Israel is back in the headlines as the bad guy and we here are preparing for the worst.



If one was to consider all the attacks that have been averted by the authorities and the IDF in Israel for the past two months I don’t think there’s been a decrease in missions from the various terrorist groups.

Offhand I seem to recall at least three successful attacks carried out by the various terrorist groups. Sometimes it’s only a little twist of fate that makes the difference between an aborted or unsuccessful killing spree and one that kills and maims.

I don’t really like to attach numbers to the amount of casualties but if each and every shooting/bombing had been successful the death toll (as bad as it is now) would be horrendous. I’m not going to attempt to calculate a potential amount but it could well have reached almost 10,000 or even surpassed that amount and the injuries would amount to many times that.

So it’s due to the vigilance of the authorities that there’s been a decrease of attacks and certainly not for the lack of trying.


At least that's how I see it.

A belated congrats on making moderator.

[Northlander]

Shehada is dead all right calm down.
What you fail to see is that 5 persons will take his place after the losses IDF inflicted on innocents. Instead of 1 you will have several.

Smart move.
Really smart.

I feel for the dead and injured palestinians now and I feel for the dead and injured israeli civilians that will surely come after this.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD40302


On May 29, 2002, the website Islam Online(1) posted an interview with Salah Sh'hadeh, commander of the 'Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, who was assassinated by Israel on July 23, 2002. The following are excerpts from the interview:


Of course his words were belied by his deeds. To say you don't target children is in fact somewhat different than shooting them on a bus.

"Sh'hadeh: "The stream of youths [who seek to] attain martyrdom shows [mental] health and the awareness of Palestinian society, and is not a mistake or an escape from a situation of despair or frustration. "

From the horse's mouth

Sh'hadeh: "We have surveillance groups whose role is to monitor Israeli and settler patrols and the movement of the enemy on the border. We utilize every breach we find in the enemy's security fence. Afterwards we define the target and the nature of the assault on it, whether it is a settlement, a military post, a military vehicle, or anything else. The target is filmed, and then [the video] is shown to a committee appointed by the General Staff of the Military Operations. After the target is approved, the martyrdom operation's perpetrator is trained... Then the operation is ready to go, after a group of experts approves the plan and determines the factors for its success or failure."

So now do you understand how organized this is?

Another significant obstacle is the haze obscuring the political position of the National [Palestinian] Authority. This causes confusion in the military wing [because] it does not set a [clear] position regarding the military operations - that is, whether it is for them or against them.

This speaks volumes.

[Northlander]

What is your point in the last post Mediocrates?

I know perfectly well how organized they are.

The same could of course be said about any IDF operation.

Misstakes can happen but both sides are very experienced to say the least. They know perfectly well what they are doing and they know how to do it to inflict a certain degree of damage as in IDFs case and a maximum degree of damage in Hamas case.

Hamas knows what they are targeting and so does IDF.

My point is that the IDF and Israel in just this attack wanted the casualties to become somewhere around where they were.
I would guess that they used a laserguided bomb and in that case its possible that they targeted the house and guided the missile from the ground.

Nevertheless they surely had intelligence enough on ground in the area to be SURE that the guy was it the house just prior to the attack and also to know fairly accurate how many people were in the radius in the neighbourhood.
They knew his family and children were there. Therefore in a way you could say they targeted civilians deliberately. Hence, a warcrime.

It was a message to the terrorists and their supporters. I just find it horrible and cynical. And stupid. It will never work. People will take over after Shehada. The civilians died in vain. And so will the israelis when the revenge comes.

[Rafman]

Northlander i see you live in Sweden. Ok, ive never been there but consider this.

Imagine Mr F. is a Swedish terrorist. He has organized hundreds of terrorist acts in France? (sorry i dont know Europe geography by heart, what countries are closest to you or so, so France is just an example of a supposed neighbouring country you're in a conflict with). He is responsible for the deaths of over 200 French citizens in the past few years. He is a ghost, Mr. F. always hides and can never be found/killed.

One day, the French secret agency learns that he is hidden in a small building in Sweden. The Sweden government claims that they "condemn" terrorism, yet that is where they stop in doing so. Your police is corrupt. Normally, France would send a police force, or would mostly require a Swedish police force to go in and arrest Mr. F., hand him over to France and have him tried and hopefully executed. Yet The french know, if they told the Swedish government about it, the only thing that would happen is Mr F. would "conveniantly" manage to escape.


So to come back to the subject, you said Israel shouldn't have bobmed the area? What else should they do? Ask the PA to send police over to capture him alive? Please...

It is sad that civilians were killed, but please try and name one country in the universe who wouldn't have done anything they could to kill a murderer responsible for the death of hundreds of innocent civilians. When you come up with the country, post it here.

[Northlander]

I get your point regardless of your example with France and Sweden. In you example france would have to have troops in the swedish west bank. That would mean total war so obviously we wouldnt leave out any terrorists to them. Its of course not a comparable situation and a lousy example.

What Israel should have done in my opinion beside, leaving WB, remove the settlers etc, are to get this guy with minimum civilian casualties. That does NOT mean a airstrike on a house with children in it.

Helicopters and special forces. Secure the area. Move into the house. Try to capture the guy alive. Spare his family.
Fly him out and into israel.
Try him in court according to israels laws. Do not question him on occupied territories to get around the laws against torture.

Do it all according to international laws and conventions.
Present the accusations and play with open cards during the trail as far as national security allows. When its done, sentence him to whatever punishment israel sees fit. I dont have problems with deathpenalty in a situation like this which most europeans have for some reason.
That is the way and has been done numerous times by several countries the last decades when it comes to anti-terrorism.

[Mediocrates]

What is your point in the last post Mediocrates?


That they stalk, hunt and kill whomever they choose. Is this is your idea of liberation? Your holy sainted war for national identity and freedom?? Oh wait wait lemme guess - - they're...they're VICTIMS, yeah that's it. Has a nice ring.

I especially liked the allusion that they have nothing whatsoever to with the goals and aims of the PA. When some terrorists aren't terrorist enough for you then I think you can be dealt with and removed by any means necessary. And anyone be they Palistinians or not, who can't get with that program needs to go to Gaza and kill all the Hamas themselves. Then we can talk about who's tears are saltier.

[Mediocrates]

What Israel should have done in my opinion beside, leaving WB, remove the settlers etc, are to get this guy with minimum civilian casualties. That does NOT mean a airstrike on a house with children in it.


Whatever for? You've already said that all violence would magically evaporate if only all the Jews would leave. And even if it didn't, the Israelis still wouldn't have just cause to do anything w/o Koffi Annan standing around in a striped jersey and a whistle.

[Rafman]

i agree the France/Sweden example was an extremely poor one, i was just trying to somehow put it a bit in context for you. Not that i blame you personally of this, but a lot of people tend to react to the situation in the Middle East only looking at it one-sided, never considering Israeli's point of view.

Well anyways you were saying, if they cant rely on sending the PA police in they should have sent thier own ground forces to capture him. Sure i agree with you, that could have worked out much better.

but then again, when he is the most-wanted on Israeli's hit list and when they haven't been able to capture him for so long before, chances are he may very well have found a way to escape. They didn't want to risk it.


I'm not a military expert, maybe there would have been a better and more sure way of killing/capturing him while doing it more safely too, i dont know.

Of course the civilians lives lost are very regrettable, especially the children and im not trying to excuse it. I'm just saying this man deserved to die, and if any other country in the world was faced with so harsh terrorism daily, and then had a chance at killing one of the masterminds behind it, i think they would have done the same thing.

Terrorism is at the root of the conflict, not the IDF.

[alexbmn]

oh yeah send your own forces into Gaza.The whole place ls like Jenin multipled by ten.How about you volunteer Northlander? While Israel would be waiting for the perfect opportunity the bastard would carry out countless other attacks. An he isnt that easily replaced. This was THe leader of Hamas.It wont be easy for them to find someone with his charisma or operational ability.

[alexbmn]

Ettinger: U.S. Knows Why It Issued Only A Weak Condemnation

In response to American and international criticism of the Israeli assassination of arch-terrorist Salah Shehada that led to the deaths of nine Arab children, analyst Yoram Ettinger, Israel's former liaison to the U.S. Congress, has prepared a list of United States attacks in which civilian lives were not taken into consideration.
"The list actually goes beyond Afghanistan," Ettinger told Arutz-7 today. "For instance, in 1989, the US invaded Panama City in order to free [the ruling strongman] Noriega, using jets and helicopters. Six hundred civilians were killed in that raid, according to American estimates, and thousands were wounded. Then U.S-Chief of Staff, whose name was Colin Powell, said at the time that the appropriate amount of force was used 'and we have no need to apologize.' The Attorney General at the time, Dick Thornburg, said that the U.S. was operating according to the UN's clause 51 allowing self-defense…
"In 1993, in response to the killing and mutilation of 15 US soldiers, the USAF bombed Somalia, turning an entire area basically into a parking lot, killing over 1,000 citizens. Again the U.S. said that it was self-defense.
"In this current war against Al-Qaeda [in which sources say 400-800 civilians have been killed - ed. note], when Rumsfeld was asked about the American attack on Red Cross offices and on other civilian areas in Afghanistan, he said, and I agree with him, 'This is a war that has been forced upon us by terrorists… We are making great efforts not to hurt civilians, but if civilians are hurt, the entire responsibility for such is upon the terrorists who use them as cover…'"

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that the Israeli raid against Shehada was "heavy-handed" and "not consistent with dedication to peace." Ettinger was not upset, however, saying that the U.S. response was only a "weak condemnation." He noted that Congress yesterday approved an extra $200 million in aid to Israel, and "Bush has not threatened to withhold it."

[minusthejihad]

Ettinger: U.S. Knows Why It Issued Only A Weak Condemnation

Exactly,

I think America was very careful about its choice of words. "Heavy Handed" - yeah, about right. But we all know that America needs to play both sides, but in the end, they'll support Israel over the terrorists. Believe me, deep in the Pentagon, White House, Congress, even in the minds of most Americans, I think there is a silent "Thank You Israel, for wiping this murderous bastard off the face of this planet who would attack us in a heartbeat".

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer. All the EU, UN, and the Arab World needs is a pat on the knee sometimes. Eventually, we'll ween them off the nipple eventually.

[Formula]

Originally posted by alexbmn
Ettinger: U.S. Knows Why It Issued Only A Weak Condemnation

In response to American and international criticism of the Israeli assassination of arch-terrorist Salah Shehada that led to the deaths of nine Arab children, analyst Yoram Ettinger, Israel's former liaison to the U.S. Congress, has prepared a list of United States attacks in which civilian lives were not taken into consideration.
"The list actually goes beyond Afghanistan," Ettinger told Arutz-7 today. "For instance, in 1989, the US invaded Panama City in order to free [the ruling strongman] Noriega, using jets and helicopters. Six hundred civilians were killed in that raid, according to American estimates, and thousands were wounded. Then U.S-Chief of Staff, whose name was Colin Powell, said at the time that the appropriate amount of force was used 'and we have no need to apologize.' The Attorney General at the time, Dick Thornburg, said that the U.S. was operating according to the UN's clause 51 allowing self-defense…
"In 1993, in response to the killing and mutilation of 15 US soldiers, the USAF bombed Somalia, turning an entire area basically into a parking lot, killing over 1,000 citizens. Again the U.S. said that it was self-defense.
"In this current war against Al-Qaeda [in which sources say 400-800 civilians have been killed - ed. note], when Rumsfeld was asked about the American attack on Red Cross offices and on other civilian areas in Afghanistan, he said, and I agree with him, 'This is a war that has been forced upon us by terrorists… We are making great efforts not to hurt civilians, but if civilians are hurt, the entire responsibility for such is upon the terrorists who use them as cover…'"

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that the Israeli raid against Shehada was "heavy-handed" and "not consistent with dedication to peace." Ettinger was not upset, however, saying that the U.S. response was only a "weak condemnation." He noted that Congress yesterday approved an extra $200 million in aid to Israel, and "Bush has not threatened to withhold it."

Could you imagine what would happen if Israel killed 1,000 Palestinian civilians?! :eek:

[Northlander]

To use other bad examples to excuse your own stinking actions makes sense :rolleyes:

I have no problems discussing US military operations usually. I feel it would be a bit off-topic this time though. We could discuss chinese and iraqi too.
Dont see how that can make this IDF attack any better.

I still belive this sollution creates more terrorism. He will be replaced by other people. Maybe more ruthless, maybe less.
Time will tell.

[minusthejihad]

Obviously not to people who miss the point.

[clydekmann]

I too would like to lay down and stop the combat of terrorism, but everytime that happens, a few bio-chemically challenged extremists send out their young virgin seeking in paradise henchmen to blow up a couple of Israeli civilians. I would love to let full autonomy/statehood exist in Gaza and the West Bank, but for the extremists, it would never be enough. You have to show them the end results of their bad behavior, disciplinary anti-terrorist measures need to be taken when there is no trust of those of whom we are dealing with on the other side. Unfortunately, Israel caused this to happen by giving money in the occupied territories in the late 60's and 70's to Hamas to offset the balance against Fatah. Israel, like America with Bin Laden against Russia are now reaping the end results of the foolish divide and conquer politics to save our own asses.

[Northlander]

Nice, you are absolutely right Israel helped to form Hamas.

Since Israels politics then was so obviously fatal, isnt it at least possible that the politics now also will be a problem later on?

Israel needs constructive sollutions. And Israel needs to compromise.

[Formula]

Originally posted by Northlander
And Israel needs to compromise.


How so? Pack up and leave?

[clydekmann]

Only way Israel can compromise with the lack of trust now is by pulling out after a complete surveillance system is in place (virtual wall by camera surveillance around all west bank towns)
or again by bringing the stupid arab mentality to it's knees the way the Americans did to the Germans in Dresden.
Northlander, you have obviously never been to Israel to understand the conflict in cultures of the Israelis and the conflict of cultures between the overall western deomocracy of Israel and the despotic, patriarchical culture of the Arab world. If you go to Israel, You might get lucky and sleep with an Israeli woman, parents wouldn't care, no shame done. If you marry you would have to convert most likely to Judaism. If you slept with an Arab woman that was not a prostitute and if there family found out, she would be killed publicly. Do you now understand the difference incultures? You can't negotiate with this mentality.
Anyone else want to try and educate Northlander?

[minusthejihad]

Highlander = Lost cause. Devout Anti-semite and ignorant to the crux of the bicuit. Always easier to view and judge from afar. Quite Annoying.

Save the education for the people who haven't already formed anti-Israel sentiments, or for the children that have bombs strapped on them. I fail to see what bearing some guy in some Scandinavian country has when it comes to this conflict.

Opinions are like s, everyone has one.

[victot]

let me just say, this is 1 of the most interesting conversations i've ever seen in here.

Northlander, i dunno, i've been to israel on an organized tour, ya gotta listen to the army commander guys talk to really have an appreciation for the troubles israel has...
there's almost no way you can't be VERY proud of the idf's accomplishments, from both a tactical and a moral standpoint.
I hafta conclude from hearing you talk, that although your heart is in the right spot, you don't really know what you are talking about a lot of the time; i think Israel would have been destroyed by now if it had followed your miltairy lead.
in fact, i think in 99 out of 100 universes without devine interevention, the state of israel is destroyed by now.

That being said, i'm not proud as an israeli supporter of this particular bombing, and i also ultimately support israeli permantly leaving the WB, but i dont think it's as obvious and painless as you seem to imply it is.

Also guys, i dont think it's fair to critisize the US, and put too negative a note on the things the US does...
they support Israel, and i doubt the survival of israel today without US's help.
we must be honourable and defend the US when we can...
they are an imperfect but striving to be moral country in difficult circumstances, like israel.

hey Rafman, i'm from montreal too!! how old are you? im 21 m and i go to concordia.

[Northlander]

clydekmann


I live together with a second generation arabgirl whose father is born in Palestine and is Imam in a arab community here in Sweden.
Me myself are as non-arab as is possible. Im also ateist.
If we marry I dont need to convert to anything.
He basically runs the whole muslim community where he lives since he speaks in the mosque every day and has sort of a influence. Can we do whatever we like?
yes.
Its about mutual respect.
But maybe im wrong cause"You can't negotiate with this mentality."
You dont need to as long as you dont kill their children.

His son, my girls brother, doesnt eat pork, that is about the influence he have had on their lives.

Educate me in some more in arab/muslim mentality, please.

BTW have made it out with an israeli girl once, not in Israel but nevertheless. Ive never been to Israel unfortunately even though its fair to say she made me want to.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
Israel needs constructive sollutions. And Israel needs to compromise.
Well, some would say that Oslo 1993 and Camp David 2000 contained construvtive ideas and included painful comcessions offered generously by Israel to appease the Palestinians. The result? Non-stop terrorism and massacres of innocent Israeli victims.

And even during Ariel Sharon's tenure, he has repeatedly withdrawn the IDF from certain Palestinian-occupied towns, like Hebron, Qalqilia, Ramallah, etc., making only one simple request of the Palestinians -- to just stop terrorism for 7 days so that peace negotiations could resume. But, as we all know, stopping to mass murder Jews was a request that was immediately rejected by the Palestinians, so the war of self-defense against Arab and Islamic terrorism continues.

[minusthejihad]

Victot,

Also guys, i dont think it's fair to critisize the US, and put too negative a note on the things the US does...

I love this country. It has given me more rights and pursuits of happiness that I can't stop working, trading stocks, or watching porn. JK But it also gives me the right to critisize my countrry, like I couldn't do in the USSR. So I take advantage of it sometimes.

But I agree, Israel has no better friend than the United States, but you have to understand that the US has to play both sides. And even though I understand their approach, I find it highly hypocritical, as a precedent to set for fighting terrorism, that the US janks Israel every now and then. It's unfortunate.

[clydekmann]

Agreed
Northlander is clueless and can't be educated. Already formed an opinion with generations of anti-semitism just waiting rear it's ugly head once again in a "educated" central/northern european fashion.

[Northlander]

decide please.
Am i too educated or uneducated?

and stop implying we are rasists/anti-semits just because we are born in northern europe.

your sionist views of your superiority are so obvious.
it is really you and the "anti-semits" isnt that right?

try to get down from your high horses and cut the worst rasist BS.

[NewsGuy]

Northlander is not anti-Semitic.

He's wrong in many of his views, but not an anti-Semite. Actually, his views are very similar to Leftist Israelis.

Oh, and you have to give him credit for corrupting the Imam's daugher. Knowing that an infidel like Northlander is "dating" his daughter probably caused the father more grief than being interrogated by the Shin Bet.

[minusthejihad]

I believe the post where Northlander said:

About the bothering part maybe you are right. Maybe you are bothered by anyone not being a bloodthirsty sionist?

I think there is a veiled implication that if I am pro-Israel, that I am a Bloodthirsty Zionist.

Seems like anti-semetic to me. But I've dealt with so much of it lately, I'm beginning to miss it.

[elke]

All right, everyone. Take a deep breath and count to ten.

Now, Northlander, you really would have benefitted from visiting - actually visiting - the site where the World Trade Center once stood. When you see the spaghetti of the electric, plumbing, whatever systems hanging out of the building you used to know fairly well, when you see a brown muddy woman's shoe on the ground with what looks like blood in it, when you smell the smoke and see the fog created by it, your whole outlook changes. "Terrorism" is no longer an abstract concept. When you stand there, contemplating what once was, you realize that this is what Shehada and his ilk stood for. You also realize that it's not as simple as it seems from the outside to fight this evil.

It is extremely sad that these 14 civilians got killed. We will all mourn for them. I have no doubt that the IDF will try to avoid such things whenever possible, and will regret it every time it's impossible to avoid it.

I do think that IDF, to a degree, is a victim of its own success. Now nobody believes that they can make mistakes. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it certainly looks to be true.

[Mediocrates]

One wonders about scale. At least I do. I wonder if Mr. Bad Guy and only 3 other people were killed whether the response would be the same? 4? 1? An old guy and a pregnant woman? 6 college students? A gaggle of UN workers? Because I'm sure once you fire off a missile or a bomb, the physics and chemistry involved is monumentally indifferent to those differences.

So the question you have to ask yourself is; what is the basis of my emotional reaction to this? Is it simply shock, like looking at a church van flipped over and burning on the highway? Is it abstract like an abhorence to all of the grislier forms of death? Ask yourself the hard questions first.

[Northlander]

minusthejihad:

I believe the post where Northlander said:

About the bothering part maybe you are right. Maybe you are bothered by anyone not being a bloodthirsty sionist?

I think there is a veiled implication that if I am pro-Israel, that I am a Bloodthirsty Zionist

Seems like anti-semetic to me. But I've dealt with so much of it lately, I'm beginning to miss it.


Ive already responded to that in another thread, dont feel like doing it again. Its enough to say I did not mean your are either bloodthirsty nor zionist by being pro-israeli but rather that you were not bothered personally by posts that clearly were both that things.
To say that children are not innocent and that they deserved to die is bloodthirsty no matter what side it comes from.

It was not an attack on pro-israelis in general.
Newsguy even told one of the most aggressive posters to calm down and I dont think I go to far if I say Newsguy is pro-israeli.



Northlander is not anti-Semitic.

He's wrong in many of his views, but not an anti-Semite. Actually, his views are very similar to Leftist Israelis.


right, thank you. Im really not an anti-semite and I start to belive that you are also right about the comparison with Leftist Israelis the more I hear from them.
Makes sense though. Some people in Israel must have got the right kind of ideas by now ;)
Here I can hardly be called a leftist but our scale looks different. Our right is not as far right as US right would be either.
The big difference in views I think is that had I lived in Israel my view of IDF would not have been as crititical as it is now. Most Left wing israelis seems to be much more patriotic than their european counter parts. But that makes sense when looking at Israels military history.


Oh, and you have to give him credit for corrupting the Imam's daugher. Knowing that an infidel like Northlander is "dating" his daughter probably caused the father more grief than being interrogated by the Shin Bet.
:D

It could have been so Im not denying that, but culture and religion is not always a problem in everyday life. Thats why the generalisations about Islam is so very annoying.
I think we can all agree that changes has to come for Islam in many ways I just belive it will come automatically when they can have much of what we in west have had for a long time.
People on WB will hardly share this Imams views since they have none of his freedom.

I basically agree to the "get out of the pitywagon" or how to put it. Its always a personal responsibility what you choose to do with your life but any person needs options. Clearly arabs living in Israel are less militant than those living in occupied territories that means the situation in WB and Gaza has to change. Israel has a responsibility since they choose to be there and the current strategy is not working.

elke:
I will in fact visit NY soon and I will pay my respect at the site.
The same feeling you get there you could also get when seeing the result from ordinary cluster bombs or anything in the US arsenal. It helps your imagination to see the devastation. Its like when they are showing victims from traffic accidents to drunk drivers and people really start to realise what its all about.
I agree to what you say but it goes both ways. The result of a 2000lb bomb on a terrorist is not so frightening. Not at all really, but the result of the same bomb and 150 civilians among them many women and children are another thing. I dont defend any one of those two actions. I would defend an israeli operation though when they took him by groundforces. That would be legitimate with this extreme man.

No way I will ever agree to the claim that IDF did not know how many civilians were in the area and the magnitude of the explosion. That is my opinion in this matter. Its not a moral stand against the hunt for Shehada.

[elke]

OK, Northlander. Agreed on both points: the civilians hurt in the Shehada raid are as valuable as any others, and that the devastation from the cluster bombs would have similarly horrifying effect when seen in person. However, such destruction is still ultimately the responsibility of the terrorists, IMO, as well as the civilian casualties in the Shehada raid.

By the way, "pro-Israeli" and "Zionist" are synonyms, and "Zionist" is not an insult, but rather something many of us are proud to be.

I passed by the WTC site yesterday, which should explain some of the more hysterical posts I made after I came back. It's not the same anymore though: the site is more-or-less clean now. We will welcome you in New York and hope you will have an enjoyable stay!:)

[Northlander]

thanks elke. Coolest city and great people there. I really look forward to it.

I have a somewhat different view on terrorism since I belive no one joins a terrorist organisation for plain fun. Well some might but most terrorists are convinced they fight for something.
That must be bared in mind when trying to fight it.

Side by side with the accomplishments made by your nation your history are of course filled with questionable deeds as well.
USAs involvement in other countries politics in itself is a guarantee for aggression back.
Its just so.
I dont think there are one single chance that it will ever be possible in the future to be a superpower without being attacked.
And worse attacks can come as technology and availability improves.

The american public are as all civilians innocent and anyone targeting them deserves not to live in my opinion. But Im afraid some people feel the same way when their civilians dies as collateral damage. Sort of eye for an eye and it never stops.

The collateral damage in the Shehada attack will result in just that. Someone lost a kid and he feels as any relative to the victims of 9-11. "Had they not done that.... we would not have to do this.." And so on and so forth.

[elke]

You are right again IMO about how the relatives of the killed civilians feel, but the only question is: what is the alternative course of action?

The questionable deeds are a general human failiing. No one nation or individual is perfect. Most of us do try to be as good as we can though - Jews, Americans, Swedes, and all others as well - in their own way. The main stumbling block to human development, IMO, is that collectively people often can't figure out what that "good" is, the whole, complete picture.

[Northlander]

what is the alternative course of action?

In USAs case it must be too pull down a bit on the military operations abroad. It is not possible anymore to do it as before since it will result in terrorist operations inside USA just to move the war there. Sooner or later chemical attacks or nukes will be used. The world is much smaller and people are closer than 20 years ago. Things change. USA will not be able to keep up the military pressure on their enemies and at the same time be 100 percent clear from new attacks. Its naive to belive that.

Same goes even more for Israel. Without a withdrawl of the settlements and IDF from WB there will be no peace.
Someone must act first and it should be the strongest becasue they are the only one with the possibility to still have an advantage. Israels claim that suicide attacks must stop before any peace talks is not fair. the first suicide attacks started in the late 70th if that and in large scale not until what? The 90th?
There were no palestinian state then. Why should Israel want one now? When there were no attacks on civil israelis there was still no sign of a palestinian state so why should that happen now even IF the attacks stops.
At least that is how I think any members of Hamas or others could think.
Anyway, with a withdrawl it will be hard for them to get any support as it is now because no ordinary palestinian would want a 2000lb bomb in their head again. And no new IDF in their houses.

Keep up the pressure on Hamas and secure the borders but as long as there are constant new settlements Sharon and co shows they dont want peace. Actions needs to be taken not only waiting for the PA to solve everything.
Which they are clearly not capable of I might add.

[elke]

All was not well for the Israeli civilians long before the 1970's. The suicide murders are a tactic , not a strategy : the strategy is terrorism, and it has been in use against Israeli noncombatants long before anyone has uttered the term "Palestinian state". In fact, it was long before the "1967 borders". That's why Sharon, Netanyahu, and even Rabin and Peres have little, if any, faith in the Palestinian goodwill.

[clydekmann]

Elke
100% in agreement with you.
Hey Northlander:
Go live in Israel for a month and the West Bank and Gaza for a month. Compare the living conditions of the Arabs in both places. Yes, there is a reward for not waging violence against the :D :D .Jews

[Mediocrates]

The same feeling you get there you could also get when seeing the result from ordinary cluster bombs or anything in the US arsenal


How telling. The effect of a 65mm mortar round is a blast radius that will take out a lightly armored vehicle like an armored HumVee Truck 50% of the time at a distance of 45 meters. The corresponding 50% suppression radius of a standard 81mm Hezbollah mortar round is about 75 meters for lightly armored vehicles. Against unprotected people the kill radius is several hundred meters. Far larger than a standard anti personnel mine.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen the effects of a nail bomb up close. While the blast effects are pretty devasting because they use a high velocity material as opposed to something like ANFO which is rather slow, the real carnage comes from the flying shrapnel, debris that fly in every direction. Picture a handful of jagged steel hitting you in the face and in the chest at ~2x the speed of sound. It makes falling into a wood chipper look neat and merciful. Very often the victims are punctured with hundreds of small shards, some of which can't be removed from the brain or lungs even if they live.