F-16 vs school kids?????

[Morpheus]

Well, I'm saddened to hear that 9 Palestinian children have been killed by a 2000 lb laser guided bomb dropped by a IDF F-16. Luckily one Hamas-bastard was killed, therefor Sharon called the operation a big succes (I hope that was sarcasm :rolleyes: ).

The EU said the actions were a war-crime and not worth a democracy. I have to agree with them.

Two options :

1. The IDF is a huge pile of ****e, not being able to track terrorists and see the difference between them and school kids. Why else is the US giving billions of dollars???

2. The Israeli gov't's new policy is to kill terrorists, and if civilians are killed during actions, so be it. Que sera, sera!


I don't think we should take excuses from Israel serious, as everyone knows that the risks of such operations are high. If you drive 130 mph in a densily populated area and something gets hurt, you can also say you did not want to kill him. In a modern state that's considered to be "murder in the second degree".

[Rafman]

Morpheus why dont you move to Israel? Take your family with you. Turn to Judaism (unless you are already Jewish). Be a witness at a suicide bombing. Maybe loose a friend or a loved one to an attack. Have these attacks happen on you, your countrymen (israel citizens) friends and neighbours daily.

Then when your government tries to protect you and your fellow citizens from such brutal murderous attacks, by going into palestinians cities and trying fight the terrorists, prevent the attacks or so on, come to the internet and read a post by some guy anonymously named Morpheus who lives somewhere in Europe criticizing your countrie's right to defend itself against murder and terrorism. Tell me how it makes you feel.

Next time you post a message 100% biast and without thought, please think a little more about it first.

that is exactly whats wrong with what the EU is doing. They are sitting in Europe, criticizing absolutely everything Israel does (along with the UN), and when there is a terrorism act against Israelis they condemn it saying its wrong. Well saying something is wrong isnt going to stop it. Sitting at home on their fat arses criticizing others for everything they do isn't very constructive.

Everyone in the world seems content on condemning terrorist against Israel; sadly, Israel seems to be the only country (with the US) with enough common sense to realise that words will nver achieve security :(

[Mediocrates]

I'll give you the obligatory 'we decry the use of excessive force' hand wringing and follow it up with a 'but all invaders and occupiers are legitimate targets whether they wear uniforms or not' caveat.

Sometimes Karma is such a bitter bitter pill to swallow. Maybe they should wash it down with some Semtex and nails.

[ibrodsky]

It's amazing that when nine children are accidentally killed by the IDF in an operation to kill the leader of Hamas' military (i.e., terrorist) wing, it brings a hailstorm of world condemnation.

But when Hamas terrorists blow up ten or twenty Jews we hear what?... obligatory condemnations, editorials about how these attacks are understandable acts of desperation, and the inevitable charge that such acts are caused by "illegal occupation," "U.S. support for Israel," and "the Jewish lobby."

I don't know any Jews who celebrate the unfortunate deaths of Palestinian civlians, particularly children. But how many times have we seen Israelis and Americans massacred followed by spontaneous celebrations in Gaza and the West Bank?

Israel was clearly aiming at Shehada. He has evaded capture or elimination for a long time. He has had a hand in killing and maiming many hundreds of Israelis.

The White House claim that this is different from killing civilians in Afghanistan is absurd. There is no way the U.S. could have dropped the volume of bombs it dropped on Afghanistan without knowing there would be civilian deaths. I am not blaming the U.S., or suggesting that civilian deaths are acceptable, just that at some point one must realize that the true blame lies with the terrorists who reject all norms of decency, do not care one wit for the Geneva Conventions, and purposely kill the most helpless and innocent.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
2. The Israeli gov't's new policy is to kill terrorists, and if civilians are killed during actions, so be it. Que sera, sera!

That's of course not the Israeli policy.

But when it comes to bearing the reponsibility for the deaths of those surrounding wanted terrorists, that responsibility lies with the Palestinians to stop its war of terrorism against Israel.

The fact the Palestinian and Arab society in general supports the massacres of Israeli and American schoolchildren is the root of the problem -- not Israel's acts of self-defense.

[Morpheus]

Well, I'm not Jewish, I'm Roman Catholic, but my religion is not of any importance. I find religion one of the least important things in my life, and hell, I won't die for it (I wouldn't even go to church for it). So I find fundamentalists, wheter they are Jewish or Muslims, wrong.

But what else can the EU do than to condemn these actions taken by Israel? As Bush said, you're with us or against us. Do you really expect Europe to agree with Israel 100 % ?! We still have brains in our head, we don't walk on the streets waving our flag just because something bad has happened, like the Americans (boo-hoo IX-XI).

I still stand by my point that this military actions are immoral, and no better than a suicide bomber. Sure, you don't come on the streets to celebrate the death of 9 Palestinian children, but you do vote for people like Sharon which are as bad as Saddam Hussein.

[Mediocrates]

But what else can the EU do than to condemn these actions taken by Israel? As Bush said, you're with us or against us. Do you really expect Europe to agree with Israel 100 % ?! We still have brains in our head, we don't walk on the streets waving our flag just because something bad has happened, like the Americans (boo-hoo IX-XI).

I was hoping that the EU would offer more than parroting of last week's or the next weeks Saudi 'peace plan'. One would think the the entirely of the political brainpower of Europe would bring something to the table besides clucking nannyism.

You confuse dissent with a solution. They are not the same thing no matter how indignant the political spokespersons of the EU appear.

I'm not sure what you mean by flag waving since American support of Israel predates 9-11 by years. If anything the official positions from the White House and the State Dept. are MORE conciliatory to the PA since 911 than before in terms of listening to their actuall demands. True enough that Arafat visited the WH more times than ANY other world figure during the Clinton administrations but Clinton made a lot of noises about appreciating the PA w/o doing much other than working furiously as a third party. This administration while it makes all sorts of noises about terrorism actualy entertains what the PA has to say.

[Mediocrates]

BTW what do you mean by fundamentalist? You seem to have an expansive definition of that. Do yo mean anyone who is earnestly observant?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Well, I'm not Jewish, I'm Roman Catholic, but my religion is not of any importance. I find religion one of the least important things in my life, and hell, I won't die for it (I wouldn't even go to church for it). So I find fundamentalists, wheter they are Jewish or Muslims, wrong.

People are not "wrong" just because they have strong religious convictions.

According to your morals, orthodox Jews who choose to live and pray in Israel are automatically as wrong as Islamic fundamentalists who practice Jihad against Jews.

Maybe you should go to church -- or at least some place where you might develop a more reasonable concept of "wrong."


But what else can the EU do than to condemn these actions taken by Israel? As Bush said, you're with us or against us. Do you really expect Europe to agree with Israel 100 % ?! We still have brains in our head, we don't walk on the streets waving our flag just because something bad has happened, like the Americans (boo-hoo IX-XI).

Get real: there is no risk that Europe will agree with Israel 100%. The point is that the outrage expressed over this attack, which targeted a known terrorist leader, exceeds the outrage expressed after larger Hamas attacks that targeted innocent civilians.


I still stand by my point that this military actions are immoral, and no better than a suicide bomber.

In terms of the unfortunate civilians deaths, yes. In terms of eliminating a known terrorist leader, no.


Sure, you don't come on the streets to celebrate the death of 9 Palestinian children, but you do vote for people like Sharon which are as bad as Saddam Hussein.

This is just prejudice. Saddam Hussein is a self-appointed leader for life. He has used poison gas against his own people; conquered and raped Kuwait; and attacked Israel without provocation.

Ariel Sharon is an elected leader who formed a coalition with the Labor Party. I doubt that as the next election approaches he will suddenly cancel it and declare himself supreme leader for life. Sharon was a military leader hated by Arabs because he defeated the Egyptian army and humiliated them by not annihilating them when he had the chance.

To claim that Sharon is "as bad as Saddam Hussein" only shows that you do not understand the differences between democracy and dictatorship; self-defense and aggression; willingness to work with people with whom you disagree and simply making them vanish in the night.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
We still have brains in our head, we don't walk on the streets waving our flag just because something bad has happened, like the Americans (boo-hoo IX-XI).

True. To get the Europeans out on the streets waving flags, it requires one of two things:

1. A gay pride parade, or

2. A good old fashioned Neo-Nazi demonstration.



I still stand by my point that this military actions are immoral, and no better than a suicide bomber.

No better at all you say? So there is no difference between a Palestinian mass murderer breaking into an Israeli home and machine-gunning a 5-year old Jewish girl in her bed, and between the IDF eliminating the leader of Hamas with the blood of hundreds of innocent Israelis in his hands?

You live in a strange world, Morpheus.

[elke]

We still have brains in our head, we don't walk on the streets waving our flag just because something bad has happened, like the Americans (boo-hoo IX-XI).


Morpheus, how dare you say that? Is this supposed to be a joke again, or are you for real this time? What are your crocodile tears for the Palestinians worth, when you can say such things about Americans? Pooh! :eek:

F-16s vs 9 kids - my foot! Try 2 jet planes vs. 3000 business people and vacationers. You are pathetic!

[Tan]

Originally posted by Morpheus


I don't think we should take excuses from Israel serious, as everyone knows that the risks of such operations are high. If you drive 130 mph in a densily populated area and something gets hurt, you can also say you did not want to kill him. In a modern state that's considered to be "murder in the second degree".


Y dun u ask how many Afgan civilian have been killed by American bomb? No one ever bother to say anything abt it, not even the UN.

What abt the lives of those innocent Israeli civilian killed by the sucide bombers? Did UN say anything abt it?

Israel would not have taken all this drastic action if PA arrest the terrorist head.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Luckily one Hamas-bastard was killed, therefor Sharon called the operation a big succes (I hope that was sarcasm :rolleyes: ).

That's like calling Osama bin Ladin or Mullah Omar "one al Qaeda bastard."

This Salah Shehada, as you very well know and conveniently neglected to mention is the founder and (was) the current top leader of the Hamas terrorist group, which is responsible for the gruesome massacres of hundreds of innocent Israeli women and children and other civilians. Shehada himself personally has more blood on his hands than Dracula on a night out at the county blood bank.

The elimination of this monstrous Palestinian terrorist is a HUGE achievement for Israel and for the world. For this, I congratulate the IDF and hope that the U.S. will soon make similar progress in finding and eliminatng Osama bin Ladin and Mullah Omar.

[Iori Yagami]

Originally posted by Morpheus
F-16 vs school kids?????
How about C4-explosives vs teens at a night-club? Belt-bombs vs busses?

[Kahz]

Mediocrates: I see you also are from Raleigh. Do you get the News and Observer? It's absolutely sickening how they so nicely leave out that Hamas are mass murderers, and just act like it's another little Palestinian group. It's fine for him to murder hundereds civilians, but when in the process of eliminating him they kill several other civilians it's so horrible. Bleh.

The world condemns Israel when it does anything that kills civilians, but it just turns a blind eye to constant suicide bombings that this year alone have killed almost 300 Israel civilians.

And everybody (besides Israel) actually takes those cease-fires seriously. Heh. Cease-fires just let the terrorists re-group so Israel won't attack them, and then they will start blowing **** up again.

[medkorp]

Hi,

some of you compare the F 16 attack and the HAMAS terrorists and say, why the world say nothing when the hamas made an attack !

that's simple, the hamas is an terrorist organisation and the Israelian governement is a democracy.

So, the democracy don't have to act like a terrorist.


Thanks

Medkorp

[Morpheus]

Nice to know I'm being pathetic because I've got a different opinion. What America has gone through the past few months is peanuts compared to what some other countries have seen. If you are still too blind to see that ...


As med said, Hamas is not a democracy, so don't judge it that way. These latest actions taken by Israel are just immoral, that's all I wanted to say. Even Ari Fleisher agrees with that. "Not this way" he said.

[Tan]

Originally posted by medkorp
Hi,

some of you compare the F 16 attack and the HAMAS terrorists and say, why the world say nothing when the hamas made an attack !

that's simple, the hamas is an terrorist organisation and the Israelian governement is a democracy.

So, the democracy don't have to act like a terrorist.

Medkorp

So what u expect Israel to do? Fight terrorists with her hands and legs tight together?

This is a war against the terrorist like Hamas who only aim was to killed as many innocent Israeli civilian as possible and destroy Israel. Israel have every right to defend herself. Though it unfortunate that civilian are accidentally killed, I do not think Israel need to apologist for it.

The civilian have been made the human shield and PA did not do anything to the terrorist. Moreover this intifadal was initiated by Yasser Arafat.

[Tan]

Originally posted by Morpheus

As med said, Hamas is not a democracy, so don't judge it that way. These latest actions taken by Israel are just immoral


So to u, it is perfectly moral and acceptable for terrorist to killed civilain coz it their job.

Hamas has carried out more suicide attacks than any other palestinian faction in the 22 months of Israeli-Palestinian fighting.

Here is a list of their deadliest attacks:

June 1, 2001: At a seaside disco in Tel Aviv, 21 killed.

Aug. 9, 2001: At the Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem, 15 killed.

Dec. 1, 2001: In a pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, 11 killed.

Dec. 2, 2001: On a bus in the coastal city of Haifa, 15 killed.

March 9, 2002: At the Moment cafe in Jerusalem, 11 killed.

March 27, 2002: At the Park Hotel in Netanya, 29 killed.

March 31, 2002: At a restaurant in Haifa, 15 killed.

May 7, 2002: At a pool hall in Rishon Letzion, south of Tel Aviv,
15 killed.

June 18, 2002: On a bus in Jerusalem, 19 killed.


Are all this crime acceptable to u?

[Moon]

Originally posted by Morpheus
I still stand by my point that this military actions are immoral, and no better than a suicide bomber.The IDF uses a one-ton bomb and 14 people are killed. A Palestinian homicide bomber, obviously not carrying a one-ton bomb, manages to kill more or less the same amount of people.

The IDF wanted to make sure a Palestinian arch-terrorist would die from the attack. A Palestinian terrorist makes sure he kills as much Israeli civizilians as possible.

Surely the IDF, as any army, isn't perfect, but I find it amusing when I see people arguing that the IDF was either incompetent or evil in its action. These people are either ignorants, nuts or anti-semites. Pick one or more.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
As med said, Hamas is not a democracy, so don't judge it that way.
So they just get a free pass to massacre Israeli children?



...Even Ari Fleisher agrees with that. "Not this way" he said.

What way do you think then that Israel should eliminate the terrorists involved in murdering Israelis? Are these Arab terrorists exempt from punishment if they happen to stay home?

[Meeklo]

Originally posted by Rafman
that is exactly whats wrong with what the EU is doing. They are sitting in Europe, criticizing absolutely everything Israel does (along with the UN), and when there is a terrorism act against Israelis they condemn it saying its wrong. Well saying something is wrong isnt going to stop it. Sitting at home on their fat arses criticizing others for everything they do isn't very constructive.


I think the EU should be concerned as to whats happening between the Isreali's and Palestine. After all it was England, the League of Nations (pre UnitedNations) and their "Balfour Declaration" farce that allowed the Jews to colonize Palestinian land in the first place. In the early 1900's the League of Nations was mandated to help the Palestine and the surrounding Arab teritores become independant states.

"THE ORIGINS AND EVOLUTION OF THE PALESTINE PROBLEM"
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/dpr/DPR_pp_1.htm

[elke]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Nice to know I'm being pathetic because I've got a different opinion. What America has gone through the past few months is peanuts compared to what some other countries have seen. If you are still too blind to see that ...


As med said, Hamas is not a democracy, so don't judge it that way. These latest actions taken by Israel are just immoral, that's all I wanted to say. Even Ari Fleisher agrees with that. "Not this way" he said.

You are pathetic not because you have a different opinion, but because you are morally handicapped.

[Meeklo]

Back on topic of F16 vs school kids...

Given the area of the complex would it have been possible to have a sniper take the guy out instead of having to use jets and missles?

[elke]

Sorry, Meeklo, it's just that that comment Morpheus made was so insensitive and callous... :mad:

I think EU should be concerned too, although they really should be more balanced while at it, IMO. They should monitor the funds donated to the PA with far more diligence than has been done up to date, and demand tangible progress in humanitarian and economic fields.

I am sorry, I haven't the slightest idea if a sniper could have taken out Shehada :o

[Kahz]

A sniper where?

Where would this sniper be positioned?

How close could Israeli snipers get to somewhere close enough to snipe him without being noticed/killed?

Does the head terrorist parade around in public?

Does he stand nicely in front of windows?

Hello?

[Meeklo]

Military Snipers know that patience is virtue, they will get their shot even if it takes days.

And as far as positioning and where's and when's, that for the snipers and military commanders to decide. Snipers are well trained to be invisible.

I'm sure the US has performed harder assassinations than this could have been. The point is there are alternative options to launching a missile into a apartment building.

[Tan]

Originally posted by Meeklo
Military Snipers know that patience is virtue, they will get their shot even if it takes days.

And as far as positioning and where's and when's, that for the snipers and military commanders to decide. Snipers are well trained to be invisible.

I'm sure the US has performed harder assassinations than this could have been. The point is there are alternative options to launching a missile into a apartment building.


Have u ever serve in the millitary? Millitary ops is a complex matter, not like those u saw on TV.

I personally do not know why sniper wasn't use, but there may be certain ops constraints that prevent this. So better dun jump to any conclusion.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Morpheus

2. The Israeli gov't's new policy is to kill terrorists, and if civilians are killed during actions, so be it. Que sera, sera!






I?m fed up hearing about this latest attack by the IDF. Right now I?m feeling evil so I hope they make it a 2,000,000 kiloton bomb next time maybe tomorrow I?ll feel like adding a few more zeroes. The Palestinian leadership can stop this anytime.

Hey at least there won?t be any radiation. Recruit me and I?ll detonate the ****en thing and I?ll see 80% of the Palestinians in hell or purgatory as for the other?s ?why worry be happy? they?ll all transcend to the pearly gates where they?ll gain entry.

Why keep yapping about this little bit of collateral damage? There?s been far worse intentional incidents that haven?t received the same coverage.

[Croatguy]

Well, I think it is useless to discuss something with those false moralizers who dare to talk about morality and condemn anybody’s right on self-defense from comfort of her/his West European or USA home.

If you’ve seen terror only on TV screen, you shouldn’t talk about right or wrong in this case.

Not many countries have seen terror on this scale as Israel is seeing today.
I'm from Croatia, one of those countries which had that misfortune. We had 5 year long war, we had 20000 people killed during Serbian aggression (Croatia has 4,3 mil. people, that's like US (280 mil.) lost 1.4 million people), we had shelling (cities, and populated areas of course) on daily basis, we had cluster bombs, and FROG missiles over and into hart of our cities, including cluster rockets into downtown Zagreb (just one rocket killed 7 and wounded 200 people - 1 mil. people live in Zagreb).

Why am I writing all this?
I, as well as most people in this country felt very well what does terror mean. We've seen that form first person view, so I got pissed off when I've seen today that our smartass government condemned Israeli actions in Gaza strip...

So, I don't condemn Israeli actions, and since I haven't even voted for this government («ex» communists), I don't want them to speak in my name, so here I am.
Those dumb**** also forgot that Israel and Croatia had very good military cooperation (modernization of Croatian MiG-21 fighters, and joint production of Tavor rifle, but all that was canceled after this left winged government got into power).

By the way, did anyone noticed, that when US bombers kill entire wedding ceremony in Afganistan, then, that is “accident”, “collateral damage” or some other euphemism, and Israel hits legitimate target, but also hits (no matter the reason) some civilians, than we are talking about “state terrorism”?!?!

C’mon people remove those double-standard eyeglasses and start using your brains.

Disclaimer:
I’m Croatian, Roman-Catholic.
I’m not Jewish, nor I have any Jewish relative.

[Morpheus]

I think whatever I've said, none of it was so insensitive. Sorry for telling the facts, but we live in an insensitive world, not?

I'm not a military specialist, but I am interested in it, and I do know that an F-16 D armed with Paveway III bombs is to take out bunkers, heavily armoured SAM-sites, C-3 buildings ... An AH-64D (Apache-Peten) firing AH-144L Hellfires or TOWs could also damage the building, but not completely destroy it. The people surrounding the buildings would at least have survived. Using such heavy bombs is as risky as firing FROG (Free Rocket Over Ground) into a populated area, as mentioned Croatguy.

Are these Israeli youngsters killed at the disco by a maniac also collateral damage, Lomplighter? I try to look at the facts, and 3 times as many Palestinians die every day as Israeli's.

Croatguy, I'm sure there are other companies who could modernise the Croation MiG-21bis. You probably mean the IAI, but ever heard of EADS (European), BAe, SABCA. Even Romania can modernise the Fishbeds, at a lower price than Israel. And if I'm not mistaking, Croatia will most likely buy second hand jets from western origin like the F-16 or the JAS-39 Gripen (Sweden).

[minusthejihad]

Croatguy,

Welcome, Thank you for your post. It's good to know that there are some rational people around the world who aren't scared of terrorists and who see the double-standards within world opinion. Please keep them coming and tell more people about this site.

Morpheus,

Are these Israeli youngsters killed at the disco by a maniac also collateral damage, Lomplighter? I try to look at the facts, and 3 times as many Palestinians die every day as Israeli's.

Here's exactly why you are 150% WRONG:

A new comprehensive study by the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT) reveals some startling trends by breaking the death tolls down into sub-segments -- e.g. age, gender, and whether or not they were combatants.

The study shows that while the majority of Palestinian deaths in the conflict are combatants, Israeli fatalities are 80 percent noncombatants.

Researchers also found that Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 185 of their own number -- one out of every eight Palestinians killed in the conflict thus far. (In the previous wave of Palestinian violence during the late 1980s, about 800 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians as "suspected collaborators" -- amounting to about one-third of the total death toll.)

ICT researchers also found that the proportion of women in the Israeli death toll is about 30 percent. By contrast, Palestinian fatalities are overwhelmingly 95 percent male. All total, 61 Palestinian females have been killed, compared to 160 Israeli females.

Another great disproportion exists amongst noncombatants aged 40 and over, where 154 Israelis have been killed, compared to 69 Palestinians.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Are these Israeli youngsters killed at the disco by a maniac also collateral damage, Lomplighter? I try to look at the facts, and 3 times as many Palestinians die every day as Israeli's.

No, the Israeli children are the primary targets of the Palestinian mass murderers.

As for the ratio of Palestinians murderers killed in the war against terrorism as opposed to the number of Israeli civilians murdered by those Palestinians, there is no comparison at all. It's like saying that since there are more murderers than law abiding citizens in jail, then the criminal justice system must be faulty.

But if you want to make a comparison, then the number of innocent Israelis specifically targeted by the Islamic terrorists is about a thousand times larger than the number of innocent Palestinians who died.

[tandem]

Well, I'm not Jewish, I'm Roman Catholic, but my religion is not of any importance. I find religion one of the least important things in my life, and hell, I won't die for it (I wouldn't even go to church for it). So I find fundamentalists, wheter they are Jewish or Muslims, wrong.
in this case, just move your family to tel aviv and live your life. go on the bus, go to movies, shopping. we'll see how long you have before a suicide bomber blows up right next to you or your family


But what else can the EU do than to condemn these actions taken by Israel? As Bush said, you're with us or against us. Do you really expect Europe to agree with Israel 100 % ?! We still have brains in our head
of course you have brains in your head. thats why you did the same thing israel did a few days ago in yugoslavia. as a matter of fact, all of your EU friends were a part of bombing belgrade around the clock. i wonder how much collateral damage was caused during the NATO campaign

so please, as long as your government have basically killed innocent civilians "accidentally" in the past few years alone, i dont think you or any other european or EU diplomat have a right to criticize israel for what it did and deny its right to self defence

[elke]

Originally posted by Morpheus
I think whatever I've said, none of it was so insensitive. Sorry for telling the facts, but we live in an insensitive world, not?



Then what's your beef with 14 dead Palestinians? In the past 2 years, less Palestinians and Israelis combined have died than on September 11 at the WTC.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Morpheus

Are these Israeli youngsters killed at the disco by a maniac also collateral damage, Lomplighter? I try to look at the facts, and 3 times as many Palestinians die every day as Israeli's.




These so called Islamic Extremist madmen or maniacs if you prefer are a disposable part of an organization that specializes in killing Jews. Collateral damage is something that is unintentional in my opinion. Whenever the IDF causes unintentional civilian deaths they express their regrets.

When was the last time you heard a terrorist organizations apologize for their acts?

[Croatguy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
I think whatever I've said, none of it was so insensitive. Sorry for telling the facts, but we live in an insensitive world, not?

I'm not a military specialist, but I am interested in it, and I do know that an F-16 D armed with Paveway III bombs is to take out bunkers, heavily armoured SAM-sites, C-3 buildings ... An AH-64D (Apache-Peten) firing AH-144L Hellfires or TOWs could also damage the building, but not completely destroy it.

Hellfire and TOW have HEAT cumulative warheads, they are intended for destroying heavy armour, so actually, you can survive Hellfire hit if you are in next room, with only thin wall between you and blast area...

Mk-82, Mk-83 or Mk-84 bomb with guiding system and detonator with small latency is the weapon of choice to kill terrorist in concrete building



The people surrounding the buildings would at least have survived. Using such heavy bombs is as risky as firing FROG (Free Rocket Over Ground) into a populated area, as mentioned Croatguy.


Sorry, seems to me that I wasn't clear enough.
During Croatia’s war for independence, Serbian forces intentionally fired unguided missiles to kill civilians. One of their leaders (Mile Martiæ) bragged on TV that he personally ordered MRL “Orkan” rockets with cluster warhead (Yugoslav co-production with Iraq) to be fired in center of Zagreb, in business and residential area, without any military targets (not even industrial) during rush hours.
So, that isn't risky, it is intentional terror.



Are these Israeli youngsters killed at the disco by a maniac also collateral damage, Lomplighter? I try to look at the facts, and 3 times as many Palestinians die every day as Israeli's.





Croatguy, I'm sure there are other companies who could modernise the Croation MiG-21bis. You probably mean the IAI, but ever heard of EADS (European), BAe, SABCA. Even Romania can modernise the Fishbeds, at a lower price than Israel. And if I'm not mistaking, Croatia will most likely buy second hand jets from western origin like the F-16 or the JAS-39 Gripen (Sweden).


Israel and Romania are modernizing MiG-s in cooperation, and AFAIK, there are only 2 worthy MIG-21 modernizations projects: Russian MiG-21 – 93 and Israeli-Romanian co-production. Russian project is more comprehensive, but also more expensive, plus risk that Russia won’t be able to ship spare part & stuff for modernized version…
As far as buying second hand planes... ...probably won't happen soon because financialy Croatia can't afford large-scale AF modernization, so modernized MiG-21 is probably best mid-term solution.

[Morpheus]

The MiG-21-93 is a lot cheaper than the Elbit Lancer (Israel-Romania) or the MiG-21-2000 (IAI). But EADS also modernised the MiG-29s for the Luftwaffe and the Polish Air Force so I'm sure they could also make a deal with Croatia.

Hellfires and TOW also have laser-guided warheads (at least the AGM-144L has, in the IDF has used them in the past). Israel has used the Mark-84 bomb with a Paveway III designator. They could as well use a Mark-82, which would also destroy the building, but at least not the surrounding ones. The United States have used Mk-82's instead of 83/84s in Afghanistan, at least in populated areas. In the desert, they prefered the Daisy Cutters.

[Croatguy]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
[B]Croatguy,

Welcome, Thank you for your post. It's good to know that there are some rational people around the world who aren't scared of terrorists and who see the double-standards within world opinion. Please keep them coming and tell more people about this site.
[b]


Minusthejihad, then you for your welcome, there are many rational people, but they usually lack useful information…
For example, it is widespread opinion that those suicide-bombers are poor, desperate people.
So, when I explain to someone that many (or most) of them are students or have college degree, that someone is stunted.
If they can afford university education, they are obviously not so poor.
During late 80-is and early 90-is one of main reasons for Albanian unrest in Kosovo was the fact that Serbian government denied them right on high education.
So, if they can study, and they choose to blow them self, and as many Israelis as they can….

That is the kind of argument people understand.
You can’t win PR war, just by sole fact that you are “good guy”…
People can sympathize poor, desperate, manipulated person, but not “poor, desperate COLLEGEBOY”.

Also, the fact that those suicide terrorists are something like pop-icons for Palestinian youth, should bi used more…
I mean, to commit a sacrifice for greater cause, is OK, but to create such culture of hate where youth lives just to grow up and commit a suicide with sole purpose to kill as many other people…. …that’s sick… …really f***ing sick..

[elke]

"...there are many rational people, but they usually lack useful information… "

Right on the money, Croatguy! :)

[Croatguy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
[B]The MiG-21-93 is a lot cheaper than the Elbit Lancer (Israel-Romania) or the MiG-21-2000 (IAI). But EADS also modernised the MiG-29s for the Luftwaffe and the Polish Air Force so I'm sure they could also make a deal with Croatia.

AFAIK MiG-21-93 upgrade costs about 1mil.$ , and MiG-21-2000 about 600000$...




Hellfires and TOW also have laser-guided warheads (at least the AGM-144L has, in the IDF has used them in the past).


TOW is wire guided misile.



Israel has used the Mark-84 bomb with a Paveway III designator. They could as well use a Mark-82, which would also destroy the building, but at least not the surrounding ones.

If I wanted to kill head of terrorist organization military wing, I would use Mk-84 just to make sure.




The United States have used Mk-82's instead of 83/84s in Afghanistan, at least in populated areas. In the desert, they prefered the Daisy Cutters.

No, US bombed wedding, killing more than 100 people...
If there is only one state that dosn't care about "other side", that's US.
By the way Daisy Cutters is carried by C-130, and B-52 did most of perversion called "carpet bombing".

[Morpheus]

TOW is not just one missile, it stands for Tube Launched Obtically Tracked Wire Guided (so here you are right, it shouldn't have put it together with the Hellfire).

[Moon]

Sometimes I wonder how healthy is for a mind to have such an interest in weaponery (whatever specificaly designed to kill and destroy) to the point of memorizing numbers.

[Morpheus]

Well, it would be pretty stupid of me to condemn Israeli's actions if I didn't know what kind of weaponry they were using. I'm not condemning the action just because it was an Israeli, but it's important to learn what weapons can be used best to avoid 'collateral damage'.

[Moon]

You missed my point but ok, I got yours.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Kahz
Mediocrates: I see you also are from Raleigh. Do you get the News and Observer? It's absolutely sickening how they so nicely leave out that Hamas are mass murderers, and just act like it's another little Palestinian group.


Yes the N&O carries a fairly standard CCNish line as far as the Palistinians are concerned. News11 is pretty close behind. The N&O has always had a liberal slant in a field of hardshell conservatives. It's pretty annoying especially when they open up their 'letters to the editor' page to print 20 or 30 anti Israeli letters in a row. But I see this as a failure of our own disengaged Jewish community here. There is little activism and even though we are very small in number we seem to fade into the background on almost every issue. Too busy backbiting each other.

[Croatguy]

Originally posted by Moon
Sometimes I wonder how healthy is for a mind to have such an interest in weaponery (whatever specificaly designed to kill and destroy) to the point of memorizing numbers.

Well, Moon, my country had very nasty war, so, let’s say that was kind of necessity. On the other hand I’m interested in all kinds of technology, and I’ve memorized thousands of other numbers. See, some people just memorize certain things…

If I got you right, you’re insinuating that we are some kind of “gun freaks”?

I’m not, I don’t own a gun or any other weapon, and I think that any kind of exercise for your mind is OK. Also, my profession requires certain knowledge in politics, and one of requirements to truly understand politics is to understand military doctrines, strategies and tactics to the certain degree…

[Tan]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Well, it would be pretty stupid of me to condemn Israeli's actions if I didn't know what kind of weaponry they were using. I'm not condemning the action just because it was an Israeli, but it's important to learn what weapons can be used best to avoid 'collateral damage'.

Knowing what the weapons can do is not enough. Ops factor and constraints would have to be taken into consideration. You will never be able to understanding fully by just reading from the books.