Noahidism

[#13]

I heard this is a good site.

http://noahide.org/

[Illuminatus]

Interesting and excellent website #13 - never seen before, thanks for the post.

One of the things that gets to me while debating (or arguing - I'm no saint btw) fellow Christians about Jews & Israel is this nonsense I hear all the time that "Jews think they're better than anyone else"......as in "The Chosen People". It seems to grate alot of non-Jews for some reason.

Contrary to popular belief, it seems to me that the Torah does not maintain that Jews are necessarily better than other people simply because they are Jews.

Because of your acceptance of the Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of God, but you'll lose that special status when you abandon the Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that you received from God by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. I could be very wrong here. Please fill free to correct me.

Now to a question I've had for a long (long) time: If Jews have a special responsibity, won't God punish Jews for doing many things that would not be a sin for non-Jews?

^_^

[scattergood]

Interesting and excellent website #13 - never seen before, thanks for the post.

One of the things that gets to me while debating (or arguing - I'm no saint btw) fellow Christians about Jews & Israel is this nonsense I hear all the time that "Jews think they're better than anyone else"......as in "The Chosen People". It seems to grate alot of non-Jews for some reason.

Contrary to popular belief, it seems to me that the Torah does not maintain that Jews are necessarily better than other people simply because they are Jews.

Because of your acceptance of the Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of God, but you'll lose that special status when you abandon the Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that you received from God by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. I could be very wrong here. Please fill free to correct me.

Now to a question I've had for a long (long) time: If Jews have a special responsibity, won't God punish Jews for doing many things that would not be a sin for non-Jews?

^_^


As to your question, the answer is yes, absolutely. Jews have 613 Laws, non-Jews 7.

Jews are punished for not keeping the Sabbath, while non-jews are not required to keep the Sabbath. Jews cannot wear gaments of linen and wool, non-Jews can. Jews can't eat shellfish and port, non-Jews can, etc...

[#13]

The 7 Noahide Laws are general in nature.

There are more specific Laws. About 223 out of 613 are applicable either as obligatory or optional to Gentiles. I am trying to find a list of them in English. May have to put it together myself...

In our times of spiritual darkness the concept of punishment is hardly applicable, rather we are considered as Tinok SheNishba (Lost Children)...

[Illuminatus]

thanks scattergood - I appreciate the responce and answer -- and I think I've won a few arguments. heh!

Embarrasing enough, I have only a book-marked summary of what Jews believe about God....from the BBC : ( good grief

The 613 Laws are rarely mentioned anywhere from what I see.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/beliefs/beliefs_2.shtml

If you have anything that explains Judaism better, is more concise, accurate and easy to read at the same time, I'd appreciate a link(s).

thanks again

[#13]

This (http://www.jewfaq.org/) is a great site for the basics.

What Jews believe about G-d is not basic and I recommend a copy of Guide of the Perplexed by Rambam to start. I got a pdf copy somewhere. Let me know if you want it.

The BBC site seems very good as well as a quick reference to some fundamentals.

[Agnosthiest]

Contrary to popular belief, it seems to me that the Torah does not maintain that Jews are necessarily better than other people simply because they are Jews.

Because of your acceptance of the Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of God,

ah so jews are not better but they are special. err, ah...right. :confused:

[#13]

Judaism and it's followers are meant to develop a more intimate relationship with the Creator.

Everyone who desires this is welcome as well.

I think people have to get used to the idea that Judaism is not racial or national in nature. It is for everyone. However, different people have different types of responsibilities. Israelites and those who join them have a more complicated relationship, with its rewards and responsibilities, but the job is open to anyone.

[Illuminatus]

ah so jews are not better but they are special. err, ah...right. :confused:

Actually I wrote (and hold) that Jews have a special status.
---------------

Thanks for the link #13 -- It's book-marked and set aside for an indepth read.

^_^

[Agnosthiest]

Actually I hold that Jews have a special status.

err...isnt it that...special=better? :confused:

[Agnosthiest]

Judaism and it's followers are meant to develop a more intimate relationship with the Creator.

Everyone who desires this is welcome as well.

I think people have to get used to the idea that Judaism is not racial or national in nature. It is for everyone. However, different people have different types of responsibilities. Israelites and those who join them have a more complicated relationship, with its rewards and responsibilities, but the job is open to anyone.

"more intimate relationship" = better

if it is for everyone, then why isnt everyone 'encouraged' to join it? why isnt everyone invited from the very beginning? at least the egyptians should have recieved invitation cards, instead of having been freaked out by plagues.

[Illuminatus]

err...isnt it that...special=better? :confused:

...well, I guess you can say that the Special Olympics is "Better" than the normal Olympics.

Maybe it's just symantics - and your point of view.

^_^

[Agnosthiest]

...well, I guess you can say that the Special Olympics is "Better" than the normal Olympics.

jews arent exactly the disabled type. but back then they were the ones who massacred and maimed people living peacefully in their own lands. so i guess thats special in a superior manner.

[Illuminatus]

but back then they were the ones who massacred and maimed people living peacefully in their own lands.

so i guess thats special in a superior manner.

I gather there's a Society for Justice and the Prevention of Cruelty to Canaanites that's very active, vocal and you sympathize with?

Que Viva Canaan! Que Viva el Canaan Liberation Front!

^_^

[Agnosthiest]

I gather there's a Society for Justice and the Prevention of Cruelty to Canaanites that's very active, vocal and you sympathize with?

no need. the point is, at the onset of judaism, israelites have been given the special homo-superior status. chosen to be better than everyone else.

[Illuminatus]

no need. the point is, at the onset of judaism, israelites have been given the special homo-superior status. chosen to be better than everyone else.

Just curious, why are you hung up on this "special homo-superior status"?

Of course, then there's Baal the Canaanite fertility deity, the Jews got rid of him quick... is that why?

^_^

[Agnosthiest]

Just curious, why are you hung up on this "special homo-superior status"?

just because it makes for an interesting discussion? its truly nothing personal. i like jews. really! :D

muslims feel superior. jews feel superior. christians feel superior. etc, etc. etc.

thats life!

[Agnosthiest]

you may not be sayin it but surely thats how you feel it! yeah baby! its human nuture. its religious nature...makes the believer feel better and above the rest. :D

[#13]

My friend is a Gentile who likes to learn Judaism but doesn't feel he could handle the responsibility fo being an observant Jew.

A righteous Gentile goes to the same heaven as a righteous Jew, so I don't see the superiority.

Seems more like an inferiority complex.

The trick is to be the best you can be and it should all be done with happiness!

A doctor knows the functions of the body better then an accountant, but one is not superior to the other, and each one is needed. If an accountant wants to deal more with healing people he could become a doctor, but it is more difficult and the responsibility is on a whole other level. Each person should find his own place and be the best he/she can be with happiness.

[#13]

Well then, just try to imagine that not everyone has your point of view...

[Agnosthiest]

My friend is a Gentile who likes to learn Judaism but doesn't feel he could handle the responsibility fo being an observant Jew.

A righteous Gentile goes to the same heaven as a righteous Jew, so I don't see the superiority.

Seems more like an inferiority complex.

The trick is to be the best you can be and it should all be done with happiness!

A doctor knows the functions of the body better then an accountant, but one is not superior to the other, and each one is needed. If an accountant wants to deal more with healing people he could become a doctor, but it is more difficult and the responsibility is on a whole other level. Each person should find his own place and be the best he/she can be with happiness.

*erase* *erase*....i almost agreed with you there. but then I remembered the "more intimate with god" thingie. religiously speaking, if jews were chosen to be constantly reminded of their religious obligations, while for the gentiles they had no idea of theirs for the last reminder was waaay back in the time of noah. then even though its easier to become a righteous gentile, if we dont know how, and the jews do, then the jews would still have better chances of going to heaven. that still makes them better than the rest of us. :(


about the doctor and the accountant, everyone knows that doctors get more respect and more pay.

[#13]

---

[#13]

Noahide laws are basic enough to arrive at with a little moral and ethical thought.

A Jew or Gentile who tries to be the best they can be, searches for the truth and tries to live according to the results goes to the same heaven even if they are not familiar with all laws and concepts. G-d does not ask a man to do more then he is able.

And about doctors and accountants, it all depends on how good one is, and remember higher pay and more respected career does not mean happiness and satisfaction.

[scattergood]

thanks scattergood - I appreciate the responce and answer -- and I think I've won a few arguments. heh!

Embarrasing enough, I have only a book-marked summary of what Jews believe about God....from the BBC : ( good grief

The 613 Laws are rarely mentioned anywhere from what I see.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/beliefs/beliefs_2.shtml

If you have anything that explains Judaism better, is more concise, accurate and easy to read at the same time, I'd appreciate a link(s).

thanks again

Illuminatus, thanks for the compliments.

I think you are mixing two ideas: what do Jews believe, and what do Jews do. The 10 Commandments are not 10 of the beliefs of Jews, just 10 of the the 613 mitzvahs or laws or commandments are the actions that Jews are commanded to take. A good list can be found here: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

As to what Jews believe that is a harder issue. But a reasonable start for Jewish belief is the 13 articles of faith as written by the Rambam and used in services every week. These can be found here with some explanation: http://www.mesora.org/13principles.html

Also, please know that NOT believing in any or all of the 13 articles of faith, or NOT doing any or all of the 613 commandments doesn't make you non-Jewish. I know that is a lot of negatives but being Jewish or not being Jewish has nothing to do with your beliefs or your actions. It is a state of either being born to a Jewish mother or converting.

Now if you don't believe or don't practice that just means that you don't believe in Judaism or don't practice Judaism, but you are still Jewish.

[1.5 million]

Of course Jews will be "special" in the eyes of the Jewish national god - why would they invent him (and their relationship to their god) any other way?

BTW - I do understand the usage of "chosen" in regards to responsibility for keeping the covenant - etc And I totally reject the anti-semitic (or just ignorant) usage/understanding of this term as it is used to denigrate Jews.

It is also a cool thing the acceptance of Jews to those who wish to be one without evangeliscising...who could complain about that eh?

Reading parts of this thread made me laugh out loud thinking about the old spoof from the Onion - "When Jews Attack" (parody of when animals attack or some such....) - a riot - too ba Onion has restricted access to its archives to paying or registered members or some such...

[Illuminatus]

Of course Jews will be "special" in the eyes of the Jewish national god - why would they invent him (and their relationship to their god) any other way?

I'm not so sure They....invented, Him.

It appears that a poor, homeless and wondering guy by the name of Zoroaster (or Zarathustra) got to the Monotheism idea first.

If you ever find yourself in a desert (especially in the Middle East), take a moment to look up in the night sky -- maybe you'll understand how "they" (or he), invented... "Him"

^_^

[#13]

Also in this thread some opnions are being sold as a matter of fact.

Do any of you have absolute proof that the events didn't transpire exactly as the Torah records???

Would it not be common decency out of respect to Jews with a different opinion to form your statements in a form that is not absolute???

I am not offended or effected by your manner of communication, because it is obvious that we are not speaking the same language on religious matters, but I am concerned about those who may be forming opinions based on your confident but imo deceptive statements.

Please take my words into consideration.

[#13]

About Monotheism, Adam was their first and there were always those who stayed Monotheist while the masses turned to idols.... Abel, Seth, Chanoch, Noah, Shem, Yafeth, Cham, Ever, to name a few were all Monotheists.

Avraham rebelled against idolworship and G-d formed a Covenant with Him to be with him and make a nation out of him that would follow Avraham's teachings... So, you could say that was the birth of Judaism, a school of thought of Avraham to teach Monotheism to the young....

[1.5 million]

If you ever find yourself in a desert (especially in the Middle East), take a moment to look up in the night sky -- maybe you'll understand how "they" (or he), invented... "Him"

^_^

I am a Daoist (and I already have a father) - I have no need to look for a surrogate nor do I feel lacking by the knowledge that I will never know the answers. I can just accept the beauty of it all without having to understand. Likewise I find it difficult to suspend disbelief and accept (self invented) fiction as fact.

[1.5 million]

Do any of you have absolute proof that the events didn't transpire exactly as the Torah records???

Likewise I hope that Atlas doesn't lose his grip.

[#13]

Even Atlas was not meant to be taken literaly, but you don't want to see that, you have already decided that this is all lies to control the masses.

Eat a cookie.

[1.5 million]

About Monotheism, Adam was their first and there were always those who stayed Monotheist while the masses turned to idols....

(as all the stories clearly convey) Adam was a dolt...Eve was clearly the one with the brains...and she understood the wisdom (self realized life) offered by the serpent. Adam would have been content as an undeveloped animal with no capacity for self reflection or even independent thought. Eve was clearly the first human.

[1.5 million]

Eat a cookie.

Your better off taking the blue pill...

[#13]

Too late... Bye, bye, Kansas...

[1.5 million]

you have already decided that this is all lies to control the masses.

I love pork. In times where this could have hurt me I would have been greatful for the reminders to be careful (and avoid it)...but now I can be thankful for the FDAs regulations and inspectors and follow prudent cooking practices and well...times change....life is good. We shed our tails once when they outlived their usefulness to us...

[#13]

In 1953, Dr. David I. Macht, a Johns Hopkins University researcher, performed experiments on many different kinds of animals and fish, and concluded that the concentration of zoological toxins of the "unclean" animals was higher than that of the "clean" animals, and that the correlation with the description in Leviticus was 100%.[3] In addition, Dr. Macht's research indicated harmful physiological effects of mixtures of meat and milk, and ritually slaughtered meat appeared to be lower in toxins than meat from other sources[4] The conclusions of the paper published in Johns Hopkins Bulletin of the History of Medicine was challenged in a paper by biologists written at the request of a Seventh-day Adventist Church publication.[5]

wiki kosher for more...

Laws of Kashrut, Circumcision, etc, can be proven to be good for you. But it is not the reason for its observance and never was. The Torah does not forbid pig, it forbids any animal without split hoofs or that doesn't chew cud, mentioning pig, rabbit, camel, etc as animals who have only one of these two signs but not the other. You would have a hard time figuring out what problems Jews saw with eating rabbit for example, considered very healthy at least here in Italy.

You are trying to avoid the view of Judaism that these things were Commanded by G-d, taking it so far as to believe in real myth, like the one that Jews didn't eat pig cause it was not healthy (though everyone else in the world seems to be just fine eating their pork...) If that was the problem, why not say, only eat pig well done, so there is no chance of disease, etc...

Anyway, you are biased and accept folklore as bases for your decisions. While we are at folklore, let me enlighten you, Jews do not use a sheet with a hole during sex, on the contrary and "you shall be one flesh" (Genesis) results in the practice of full contact... According to Law, even clothes should not interpose...

[#13]

Once again, I am trying to show you that science is not the way here and cannot explain Judaism away...

On the contrary, laws of kashrut for example have a spiritual significance. Kosher animals have signs representative of a spiritual makeup that is compatible with the Jewish spiritual makeup. Meaning, the spiritual energy of kosher food is good for a Jewish soul...

You of course, don't believe in a soul, or in my opinion lack the understanding of what soul means, but at least have the courtesy not to shove your opinions down everybody's throat.

Thanks.

[Agnosthiest]

Do any of you have absolute proof that the events didn't transpire exactly as the Torah records???

Thats not how things work, friend.

1. The burden of proof is always on the shoulder of the claimant.

2. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


the events in the torah are extraordinary. no evidence as of yet, much less an extraordinary one.

[#13]

I am only proving that it is not conclusive either way according to science, and I want that respected.

One should not make claims that contradict Judaism unless there is absolute proof, the same as one should not try to missionize Jews. Some people use inconclusive scientific proof the same as Xtians try to turn Jews away from Judaism.

Shabbat Shalom.

[Agnosthiest]

One should not make claims that contradict Judaism unless there is absolute proof, the same as one should not try to missionize Jews. Some people use inconclusive scientific proof the same as Xtians try to turn Jews away from Judaism.

the proofs are not absolute, but there are evidences against the Torah. I'm sure you are aware what such evidences are about.

funny thing about religious books like the bible & quran. instead of offering evidences to support it, it offers evidences against its own. :rolleyes:

[scattergood]

the proofs are not absolute, but there are evidences against the Torah. I'm sure you are aware what such evidences are about.

funny thing about religious books like the bible & quran. instead of offering evidences to support it, it offers evidences against its own. :rolleyes:

And what would constitute proof to you? Let's start with that before we argue whether some detail is proof enough.

[Agnosthiest]

And what would constitute proof to you? Let's start with that before we argue whether some detail is proof enough.

anything out of the ordinary. like predicting future events specifically, precisely and unerringly? without resorting to ambigious generalizations. how about a 3rd party confirmation? like inspiring the egyptians to record the stuff about the exodus. how about saying the earth is round and goes around the sun? the possibilities are endless.

such things would serve as reasonable evidence, but not so absolute as to still require a little bit of faith.

[scattergood]

anything out of the ordinary. like predicting future events specifically, precisely and unerringly? without resorting to ambigious generalizations. how about a 3rd party confirmation? like inspiring the egyptians to record the stuff about the exodus. how about saying the earth is round and goes around the sun? the possibilities are endless.

such things would serve as reasonable evidence, but not so absolute as to still require a little bit of faith.

For somebody who demands proof, you seem particularly vague about what proof would look like. Isn't it out of the ordinary that of all the ancient peoples in the world claiming a special relationship to G-d or gods, the Hebrews are the only ones to survive, just as their book of revelation said they would? I myself don't find this to be 'proof' but it would fall under your definition since it ws so vague.

The problem is that if it was PROVABLE without any form of doubt that the Torah or New Testament or Quran were true then the whole reason for them would be vitiated. Since the purpose, according to Jewish thought, of life is to choose reveal the presence of G-d in this world through with our free will, then if there is no doubt that the instruction were true there wouldn't really be a choice.

In this ambiguity lies the heart of the matter. You decide to see it as unclear, not proved, and therefore doubt the existence of G-d, the purpose of life, the infinite nature of our souls. Ok, fine by me if you want to. But why do you feel the need to argue your point of view with those that disagree with you? Are you searching for the truth with an open mind or are you trying to win your point?

[Agnosthiest]

For somebody who demands proof, you seem particularly vague about what proof would look like.

vague??? whats vague about having the egyptians describe the exodus in their hieroglyphics? whats vague about the 'scientific miracle' of describing the solar system?



Isn't it out of the ordinary that of all the ancient peoples in the world claiming a special relationship to G-d or gods, the Hebrews are the only ones to survive, just as their book of revelation said they would?


*cough* hindus *cough*

beats you by several thousand years



The problem is that if it was PROVABLE without any form of doubt that the Torah or New Testament or Quran were true then the whole reason for them would be vitiated.

friend, i said those evidences i mentioned are not absolute, for the benefit of instilling some faith on people. any of those 3 examples, the hardcore athiest will simply dismiss as coincidental. what i propose is a healthy balance between evidence and faith. not like what you have today, nothing but blind faith and circular reasoning



Ok, fine by me if you want to. But why do you feel the need to argue your point of view with those that disagree with you? Are you searching for the truth with an open mind or are you trying to win your point?

both. search for the truth and have fun doing it.

[scattergood]

vague??? whats vague about having the egyptians describe the exodus in their hieroglyphics? whats vague about the 'scientific miracle' of describing the solar system?

What is vague about it is that you are asking for an explanation in a language that you understand today. The Talmud and the Kabbalists for CENTURIES have been talking about the universe, meaning time and space, coming into existence from nothing more than G-d's creation ex-nihilo. It took the rest of the scientific world to catch up to them and call it the 'big bang'. But because it wasn't in a language YOU understood you dismissed it. It is vague because it is subjective or arbitrary. Subjective in that you are trying to force it into your understanding of things as you see them and arbitrary because you subjectively pick items that have reasonable explantions that alternate from yours. The Egyptians, like most ancient civilizations, didn't disucss their failures. You are applying modern historiography to an acient civilization with completely different understandings and technologies.




*cough* hindus *cough*

beats you by several thousand years

Get your facts right before whipping out the sarcasm card. The Hindu religion, according to experts:



It consists of "thousands of different religious groups that have evolved in India since 1500 BCE."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism.htm

That there was religious development of various sorts in the Indus River complex is not for debate. That they coalesced into a single religious form thousands of years before Judaism is. Even today, the experts see Hinduism as a developed and evolved set of thousands of different groups. Not as a single entity from a single people.

It isn't the HINDUS that have remained, but Hinduism, big difference.


friend, i said those evidences i mentioned are not absolute, for the benefit of instilling some faith on people. any of those 3 examples, the hardcore athiest will simply dismiss as coincidental. what i propose is a healthy balance between evidence and faith. not like what you have today, nothing but blind faith and circular reasoning

I agree with you that blind faith has not place. But so does the Torah. The first commandment isn't "Have faith that I am the Lord thy G-d." It is "Know that I am the Lord thy G-d". We are instructed to study in order to know.

How can the Jews claim both national revelation and promise that no other people will claim national revelation?


both. search for the truth and have fun doing it.

Focus on finding the truth and the fun will come. Focus on having fun, the truth won't.

[Agnosthiest]

What is vague about it is that you are asking for an explanation in a language that you understand today. The Talmud and the Kabbalists for CENTURIES have been talking about the universe, meaning time and space, coming into existence from nothing more than G-d's creation ex-nihilo. It took the rest of the scientific world to catch up to them and call it the 'big bang'.

really. mind showing me a translation of your so called talmudic version of the big bang. forgive me for being a skeptic, but muslims claim the big bang is in the koran. but its really just junkscience talk. nothing near the actual big bang theory. lets see what jews have.



The Egyptians, like most ancient civilizations, didn't disucss their failures.


my friend, thats why its up to god to influence them, to inspire their hearts to write it down even though they felt bad doing so. all to serve as a 3rd part evidence.




That they coalesced into a single religious form thousands of years before Judaism is. Even today, the experts see Hinduism as a developed and evolved set of thousands of different groups. Not as a single entity from a single people.

ooooh it has to be a single entity? then why not look at each of those entities as entities of their own? those entities are more ancient than judaism. now dont tell me you are against the evolution of these entities. judaism itself evolved throughout the centuries.



It isn't the HINDUS that have remained, but Hinduism, big difference.

what do you mean? there is both hindus & hinduism both today & 5000 years ago.



How can the Jews claim both national revelation and promise that no other people will claim national revelation?

when was this claim made?

[scattergood]

really. mind showing me a translation of your so called talmudic version of the big bang. forgive me for being a skeptic, but muslims claim the big bang is in the koran. but its really just junkscience talk. nothing near the actual big bang theory. lets see what jews have.

When you understand the difference between the Hebrew words for created and formed, you will understand the implicit creation ex-nihilo which by definition is the big bang. In Genesis the words in Hebrew are different for 'creation' in English seen in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2-...with the exception of the creation of Adam, in which the Hebrew word for created and formed are both used.

Also, if you bothered to read the 13 priciples of faith posted in this link you will find:

1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

This means that by definition the universe (i.e. all things) were CREATED and have not existed forever. The decription of this creation can be seen in the creation story which in Gen 1:1 basically reads:

"1 In the beginning God created out of nothing the heaven and the earth.
2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.
3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.

So, what do we have, a creation out of nothing with unformed matter and the sudden appearence of light. Your right this couldn't be interpreted in any way as a big bang, so sorry.



my friend, thats why its up to god to influence them, to inspire their hearts to write it down even though they felt bad doing so. all to serve as a 3rd part evidence.

Thank you for proving my point. You don't want to go seek any understanding or truth in the texts or beliefs of the people you wish to belittle, you want their texts to conform to the beliefs and truths that you hold and since they don't you dismiss them.

Why should G-d 'influence them to inspire their hearts to write it down even though they felt bad doing so'? Because YOU want it to be so? And since YOU want it and it doesn't happen, what? The beliefs of millions of people over thousands of years are poof instantly invalidated? Nice.



ooooh it has to be a single entity? then why not look at each of those entities as entities of their own? those entities are more ancient than judaism. now dont tell me you are against the evolution of these entities. judaism itself evolved throughout the centuries.

what do you mean? there is both hindus & hinduism both today & 5000 years ago.

Hinduism is so diverse as to be unrecognizable as a single entity, that's the point. Judaism has adapted but that adaptation is built into Judaism. Nobody knew what a microwave was in 2000 BCE, but they knew how it would affect their laws when it was invented, so what.

As a single people, the Hindu's don't exist:




Thus, Hindu is merely a continuation of a Persian term that became popular only within the last 1300 years. In this way, we can understand that it is not a valid Sanskrit term, nor does it have anything to do with the true Vedic culture or the Vedic spiritual path. No religion ever existed that was called “Hinduism” until the Indian people in general placed value on that name and accepted its use. The name “Hindu” refers to a location and its people and originally had nothing to do with the philosophies, religion or culture of the people. Nonetheless, the term has been applied retroactively as a broad term to denote followers of the diverse traditions of "Santana Dharma".



So get off the Hindu's have been around for thousands of years before the Jews. The dual nature of Jews as people/tribe and Judaism is what we are talking about and it doesn't exist for the thousands of Hindu like religious fragments for the Indus river peoples over the millenia.






when was this claim made?

In Deuteronomy:





א וַיִּקְרָא מֹשֶׁה, אֶל-כָּל-יִשְׂרָאֵל, וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵהֶם שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַחֻקִּים וְאֶת-הַמִּשְׁפָּטִים, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי דֹּבֵר בְּאָזְנֵיכֶם הַיּוֹם; וּלְמַדְתֶּם אֹתָם, וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם לַעֲשֹׂתָם. 1 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and observe to do them.
ב יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, כָּרַת עִמָּנוּ בְּרִית--בְּחֹרֵב. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
ג לֹא אֶת-אֲבֹתֵינוּ, כָּרַת יְהוָה אֶת-הַבְּרִית הַזֹּאת: כִּי אִתָּנוּ, אֲנַחְנוּ אֵלֶּה פֹה הַיּוֹם כֻּלָּנוּ חַיִּים. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
ד פָּנִים בְּפָנִים, דִּבֶּר יְהוָה עִמָּכֶם בָּהָר--מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵשׁ. 4 The LORD spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire--

[#13]

Big bang is not from nothing, it is like a nuclear explosion of a very very very very veeeeeeeeeeery heavy atom....

I find it much simpler to describe the Creation of the world as infinite by design, but having a beginning.... Meaning, that if the world existed at the time the big bang may have occured it is plausible that it had occured, however considering that if we follow the Biblical calendar to Adam who was Created on the 6th day (btw, Adam was created at the age of 30 year old) the world is 5767 years old, plus the other 6 days of Creation plus the number of days from the last Rosh Ha'Shana, it is more plausible that G-d Created the world within 6 days, and being that it was from nothing there is no need for any step by step development. Namely, it was Created together with its past and the future at the moment of its beginning which was BERESHIS(in the beginning).

Explanations that don't count the first 6 days as regular days contradict the literal meaning of the text and the Oral tradition. In addition, I see no reason for such appoligetics being that there is no reason to stretch out the preman period when G-d was Creating the world really yesh mi ain, something from nothing, which doesn't have any limitations, meaning there is no reason to make the world go throw any other process before a man is Created other then processes needed to teach a man certain lessons for which the 6 day is plenty... We get our Shabbat cycle from the Creation of the world and the literal meaning is crucial to understand exactly what the Creation was, for which Shabbat is a big deal in the Commandments...

Anyway, appoligetics of this type are a sign of lack of knowledge and understanding. I recommend we learn better what we are supposed to preserve and relate for eternity rather then learning the intricacies of science and then spin Judaism to fit into the immature scientific models.

[#13]

I have to clarify that I am not contradicting science. According to science the world is as old as the Universe has been expanding, at least our Universe, we don't know beyond that, etc, etc.

ONe thing we have to understand is that if G-d desired to Create a world that will give its intelligent inhabitants free choice, this world would have to have all appearance of being independent and self-maintained, hence our world, but being that G-d Creates from nothingness anything He desires there is no reason to Create the world long before this intelligent life appears, but it would be obvious to Create the world with minimum time span necessary before this intelligent life form, namely 6 days, meant only to teach this life form several lessons, like the significance of each day of the week and what was Created on that day teaches us about the essences of 7 fundamental aspects that we find throughout Creation, like the 6 directions and the point of origin in space, or like 6 emotive qualities and action, etc, etc.

[1.5 million]

#13 - a bit too many (unfounded) assumptions for my taste...I'll leave it at that.

[scattergood]

Big bang is not from nothing, it is like a nuclear explosion of a very very very very veeeeeeeeeeery heavy atom....

Um, well maybe you should tell the big bang folks that. Science uses the big bang to try to explain what happens at Time + 0.000001 seconds. But science cannot even begin to try to deal with Time - .000001 seconds. They know that and they don't even try. And oh, btw this is what the big bangers say about themselves:




The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.





I find it much simpler to describe the Creation of the world as infinite by design, but having a beginning.... Meaning, that if the world existed at the time the big bang may have occured it is plausible that it had occured, however considering that if we follow the Biblical calendar to Adam who was Created on the 6th day (btw, Adam was created at the age of 30 year old) the world is 5767 years old, plus the other 6 days of Creation plus the number of days from the last Rosh Ha'Shana, it is more plausible that G-d Created the world within 6 days, and being that it was from nothing there is no need for any step by step development. Namely, it was Created together with its past and the future at the moment of its beginning which was BERESHIS(in the beginning).

Explanations that don't count the first 6 days as regular days contradict the literal meaning of the text and the Oral tradition. In addition, I see no reason for such appoligetics being that there is no reason to stretch out the preman period when G-d was Creating the world really yesh mi ain, something from nothing, which doesn't have any limitations, meaning there is no reason to make the world go throw any other process before a man is Created other then processes needed to teach a man certain lessons for which the 6 day is plenty... We get our Shabbat cycle from the Creation of the world and the literal meaning is crucial to understand exactly what the Creation was, for which Shabbat is a big deal in the Commandments...

And how exactly do explanations that don't count the first 6 days as regular days contradict the Oral tradition. Now that we understand the the elastic nature of time, what is a 'day' from the perspective of the point of origin of the universe or of material that is traveling at near light speeds? What is a 'day' relative to Earth time or what is it relative to Universe Time (which is very different than Earth time?


Anyway, appoligetics of this type are a sign of lack of knowledge and understanding. I recommend we learn better what we are supposed to preserve and relate for eternity rather then learning the intricacies of science and then spin Judaism to fit into the immature scientific models.

I thank you for your comments, and suggest that you continue to explore the vaguries of relative time, such as cosmic proper time based on cosmic background radiation (CBR). Time is clearly based on perspective and why do you thin that he Torah is always an Earth bound perspective?

[scattergood]

I have to clarify that I am not contradicting science. According to science the world is as old as the Universe has been expanding, at least our Universe, we don't know beyond that, etc, etc.
Glad to see you understand that science cannot 'know beyond' etc...and cannot delve into the world of the infinite, or some might say divine.



ONe thing we have to understand is that if G-d desired to Create a world that will give its intelligent inhabitants free choice, this world would have to have all appearance of being independent and self-maintained, hence our world, but being that G-d Creates from nothingness anything He desires there is no reason to Create the world long before this intelligent life appears, but it would be obvious to Create the world with minimum time span necessary before this intelligent life form, namely 6 days, meant only to teach this life form several lessons, like the significance of each day of the week and what was Created on that day teaches us about the essences of 7 fundamental aspects that we find throughout Creation, like the 6 directions and the point of origin in space, or like 6 emotive qualities and action, etc, etc.

You make a lot of assumptions. You know for fact that there is no reason for G-d to creat a world that exists for billions of years before humans arrive? Why, because it doesn't make sense to you? Maybe it was created only so you and I would talk about it. Why must the world be created with the 'minimum' time necessary for humans to develop. Maybe this was the minimum time, how do you now it wasn't.

[#13]

It is rather simple, man is the only being capable of reconizing G-d, without a doubt the goal of Creation according to the Torah, "in the likeness, etc..."

Why should I consider relative time, if there is no reason to do so? A day is a cycle of the earth in relation to the sun, ´"and there was evening and there was morning, one day..."

I do make one assumption, that is that the Torah is truth, and science is relative.... Some choose to assume backwords, but considering esoteric knowledge of Judaism resonates to my innards, and science resonates only to my brain, I choose Judaism...

[scattergood]

It is rather simple, man is he only eing capable of reconizing G-d, without a doubt the goal of Creation according to the Torah, "in the likeness, etc..."

Why should I consider relative time, if there is no reason to do so? A day is a cycle of the earth in relation to the sun, ´"and there was evening and there was morning, one day..."

I do make one assumption, that is that the Torah is truth, and science is relative.... Some choose to assume backwords, but considering esoteric knowledge of Judaism resonates to my innards, and science resonates only to my brain, I choose Judaism...


Thank you for not answering my questions. And if you are truly happy in the blanket of Judaism that you have wrapped yourself in, then I say great for you!

Some others of us strive for other understandings, so please don't pour water on us as we strive to do so.

[1.5 million]

...I choose Judaism...

However 4 out of 5 doctors choose Jiff...or some such...and they are able to talk the same language to one another to be able to verify each others claims, findings, speculations, discoveries etc - whereas there are practically as many versions of religious "truth" or interpretation as there are people and no claims are varifyable beyond the individual claiming he/she believes such because it feels right to them - etc

[#13]

And my whole point is not to discredit science or to prove religion but to prove that the two can coexist (at least with my religion), develop, and benefit us simultaneously.

I am all for scientific discovery. It is actually included in the Commandment to occupy the world.

Those who consider my approach escapism from reality are misunderstanding my approach. I have been trying to relate it for a while now, but seems like some people either don't understand or don't want to understand.

I just want to say that I got my initial education in Russia while religion was still unheard of and any idea about G-d or religious belief would be recieved by me the same as you respond here, except with more making fun...

I did my research and have concluded that there is more to it then the popular knowledge. I am speaking of esoteric Judaism, the one that you don't find in your local library or book store. Science causes absolutely no friction to my religion and I love both. In addition, there is prophecy in the Zohar concerning the year 666 of the 6th millenium, saying that at this time the sources of wisdom will open from below and from above. Since that time, about 100 year ago, the scientific revolution and Lurianic Kabbalah have both made progresses unparallel in world history.

I believe the development of both leads us towards the Messianic age.

[1.5 million]

I'm sorry to say but I believe that there are great and ireconcilable conflicts between most all religious beliefs (particularly concerning creation and the timeline of the universe and life in it/on our planet. And it is clear to me that scientific understanding - while not foolproof nor set in stone per se - offers a much better and more beleivable/supportable version of events then that of the ancients with their much more limited knowledge base and tools for discovery who developed a religious based cosmology and speculation as to the origins of life and existance that IMO any sane and educated person in these more advanced times can only understand for what it is/was (myth and a best guess for the time without proper tools/foundation to know better).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geev.htm

Peter Atkins: "Science is almost totally incompatible with religion."

Mark Friesel: "The difference between faith and a conditional reliance on observation of the natural world is profound. It is the unresolvable difference between religion and science."


Science and religion have different methods of adapting to change:

Science generally welcomes change. Many false hypothesis are proposed and later rejected or modified as new data becomes available. This is the method by which science continually advances. It is ultimately self-correcting. All scientific beliefs are subject to being falsified if new evidence is uncovered. One example is the cause of stomach ulcers. For decades, physicians treated patients with ulcers by using long-term stress relief programs, permanent dietary changes and continuing medication to reduce stomach acid. They achieved only moderate success. Then an Australian doctor proved that many forms of stomach ulcers were caused by a bacterium that could be eliminated with a single shot of antibiotics. He single-handedly triggered a revolution in patient treatment.
Religious beliefs, particularly those based on a sacred text, change much more slowly. In fact, many faith groups stress the unchangeable nature of their beliefs. There are three main methods by which religions modify their teachings. In Christianity, for example: Some Biblical passages that were once considered to be literally true are now interpreted symbolically. Heaven is no longer considered to be somewhere "up there." Hell is no longer believed to exist inside the earth. Over the past century, Bible passages that describe torture methods inflicted on Hell's inhabitants (worms, pain, flogging, heat, thirst, darkness, unbearable heat and flames) have been downplayed and often treated as symbolic. Hell is now viewed as being isolated from God.
Some Biblical passages are ignored. We no longer burn some prostitutes alive. Sections of the Bible that condoning and regulate slavery are no longer followed. The Bible contains dozens of passages that are profoundly immoral by today's secular and religious standards of behavior. These verses are largely ignored today.

Still other passages are interpreted as perhaps being valid for the culture and age for which they were written, but not binding in a different society or era. Male control over women, restrictions on female ordination, prohibiting women from certain professions, etc. have being largely rejected as sexist, at least by mainline and liberal Protestants.


Change eventually happens. Most people no longer believe that:

The earth is flat.

The sun goes around the earth.

Lightning and thunder are caused by Satan and his demons.

Mental illness is caused by demonic possession.

God expects that a certain number of children will die young; thus we should not inoculate our children against childhood diseases.

[#13]

My religion makes none of the claims that you find contradicted by modern knowledge. In addition, my religion doesn't enter the sphere of science. Science answers the question of how things are, religion deals with why things are.

I am saddened every time I read similar responses because it shows me what ignorance exists and how much work there is to be done...

According to Judaism one has to act according to doctors' opinions in cases of danger to health and the last scientific approach for describing the functions of the Universe. This concept is well formulated by Rambam, but can also be found in Talmud where Rabbinical opinion differed with the Greek about astronomy and the Head of Sanhedrin, Yehuda ha'Nasi states that the Greek opinion should be followed because they are better experts in the field.

It is unfortunate that Judaism has to answer for the mess other religions have created, but to those familiar with Esoteric Judaism (not the versions masses expound) destinctions between scientific research and spiritual advance have always had clear differences.

I keep trying to explain that there is no conflict between my religion and science, and you bring proofs from children literature...

I am trying my best to relate some ideas that make up my understanding of things, but unfortunately do not see any understanding in response. I am sorry I am not capable to do better.

So far, I have been trying to establish that science creates models of the functions of the universe. I have been trying to show that considering the universe was Created to function specifically according to those laws, and include all evidence of being independent of any external Being to provide for absolute freedom of choice, the Torah version of Creation has no friction with any scientific research.

[1.5 million]

I will tend to stick with science for the "why" answers as well...and just accept that neither science nor anything known to man will be able to ever answer all of the whys...and I just can't feel comfortable nor be satisfied with the "making it up because this is just what I believe it to be solution to answers". Particularly when religious explanations have had a rather poor track record when put to the test and for their frequent violation of the laws of physics and other stuff and that they always seem to require a suspension of disbelief sort of thing when it somes to scientific (knowable/observable) understanding. So - no - not good enough - at least not for me. At least Science does not claim to know all of the answers (and it does its best to back up what it does claim to be "true")

[1.5 million]

I have been trying to show that considering the universe was Created to function specifically according to those laws, and include all evidence of being independent of any external Being to provide for absolute freedom of choice, the Torah version of Creation has no friction with any scientific research.

Of course - And I will speculate that the being behind such deceptions is also decieving us in numerous other ways - particularly when it comes to its "goodness' and benevolence...like its laughing at us in our pathetic belief that we can knwo things through scientific method and understanding (the big joke is on us it seems) it is equally laughing at us for all of this adherence to silly religious dictims of behavior that presuppose that we are supplicating to a just and benevolent diety that is (positively) concerned about our interests. In this he is somewhat like W Bush and his administration - they lie and justify in one area (proven) - so you can pretty much assume that they are doing it elsewhere as well. Of course since none of your or my assumptions in this regard can be proven or disproven it basically leaves us nowhere - with nothing of substance to go on. So again I will brush my teeth 3 times a day and it will be enough to give me the same chance as anyone else (who proscibes differetn means) to go to heaven....prove me wrong. (and by your reasoning if you cannot then i guess it is just as true as any other (baseless) claim that might be made...

[#13]

Seems like you are not reading carefully what I write.

Number one, the religion I follow has not screw ups either with knowing it all, nor with claiming scientific superiority.

I would agree with you if it did, and consider cases of where such behaviour can be found in Judaism as either a misunderstanding on our part or lack of understanding on theirs. Leaving room for my own possible lack of understanding of both.

All I am saying is there is more to religion, at least to mine than what you or most people on this forum or in general seem to know.

Most orthodox Jews, that would be ever 90% have little idea of what's flying, the percentages get worth for the rest, other then single out of the ordinary people that are very very few.

I am saying that even amongst those who have read it all the ones that know what it means are very hard to find even within the most observant circles.

What I am saying may sound like a myth or imagination to some, but to me it is as real as science and much much more.

Hey, you want to be all empirical???? Fine, but keep in mind that there could be some truth to this G-d idea, and may be there are real Prophets, even if only in theory... Just keep your mind open.

[#13]

Wow, 3 times a day???

I am going down....

I will answer your concern of deception, and I hope you spend a minute contemplating the possibility before your negative experiences of reality give my words a rotten meaning.

The need for the reality to seem independent is necessary to provide intelligent beings with the option of choice. Without it the motive for the Creation of this world is lost.

Simply speaking what can be added to an Infinite, Unlimited Being???

There are many ways to answer this question, and none of them are complete but they give us an idea...

If we consider a model where G-d is reperesented by infinite light, the only possible addition to that light would light created from darkness, and that's where we come in. Intelligent beings capable of choosing the way of light, the Divine path of life in the world of complete freedom of choice...

Now, that way of light is relative to each one. We all judge ourselves. One may be doing his best to be the best human he or she can be using art, or medicine, and that is their way of light as long as at the moment of choice among the choices we make each day we choose the option we according to our best understanding would describe as the way of G-d.

Some people in search of this Way, have found ideas that help guide us, without taking away our freedom of choice, and of course without any dogmatic ideas. I claim that this approach is active in Judaism today. Not every form of it that I have encountered. But it exists.

Every post, one of the things that trouble me most is that may be I am wasting my time, and should be learning one of the things I obviously cannot describe sufficiently...

I hope at least someone's curiousity will be aroused and another intelligent being will come closer to serving his or her purpose.

Shalom.

[Agnosthiest]

When you understand the difference between the Hebrew words for created and formed, you will understand the implicit creation ex-nihilo which by definition is the big bang.

NO. creation ex-nihilo which by definition is NOT the big bang.


you make too much assumptions.

[Agnosthiest]

Why should G-d 'influence them to inspire their hearts to write it down even though they felt bad doing so'? Because YOU want it to be so? And since YOU want it and it doesn't happen, what? The beliefs of millions of people over thousands of years are poof instantly invalidated? Nice.

Honestly man, I dont really care. Its just fun to discuss. All Im saying is that the Torah would be more believable if there are 3rd party confirmations. Without extraordinary evidences to support its extraordinary claims, its really no different from any other religions out there in the market. Baseless assumptions feeding on blind faith.

[Aviva]

Honestly man, I dont really care. Its just fun to discuss. All Im saying is that the Torah would be more believable if there are 3rd party confirmations. Without extraordinary evidences to support its extraordinary claims, its really no different from any other religions out there in the market. Baseless assumptions feeding on blind faith.

The Torah isn't, (or shouldn't be) available on any "religion" supermarket shopping list, Agnotheist.

It's a spiritual record of the spiritual coventant (ie: contract) that the Jews made with their G-d. It doesn't need to appeal to anyone else or sell itself in any way.

You misunderstand what it essentially is.

[Agnosthiest]

Hey I didnt say its on the market. I only compared it with religions on the market. Judaism more like a private sale. :D

[scattergood]

NO. creation ex-nihilo which by definition is NOT the big bang.


you make too much assumptions.

Well, that's a big surprise to the big-bang folks. Most big bangers will say that the singularity exploded and that they cannot discuss what occured before its creation. Where did it come from? There si no measureable way to discuss what it is prior to its existence in the current time space frame. So what are you proposing to call no-existant stuff outside of the current existence of time space? Most people would call it ex nihilio creation, but I am open to a different view, please enlighten us.

[Agnosthiest]

Well, that's a big surprise to the big-bang folks. Most big bangers will say that the singularity exploded and that they cannot discuss what occured before its creation. Where did it come from? There si no measureable way to discuss what it is prior to its existence in the current time space frame. So what are you proposing to call no-existant stuff outside of the current existence of time space? Most people would call it ex nihilio creation, but I am open to a different view, please enlighten us.

my friend, we are discussing the big bang. not "before the big bang".

ex-nihilo means 'out of nothing'.

big bang happened out of something, the gravitational singularity.


show me how the talmud describes the basic idea of the Big Bang theory.

[#13]

Judaism teaches the world was Created 5767 years ago from nothing.

Neither big bang, nor evolution are a part of Judaism.

There are some Jews who try to stuff Judaism into the scientific view of the world.

I think this is an act based on lack of understanding or knowledge of Judaism, as well as the concept of G-d.

Judaism teaches to utilize all of Creation to help us fullfill our purpose, of which science is one of the instruments.

[scattergood]

Judaism teaches the world was Created 5767 years ago from nothing.

Neither big bang, nor evolution are a part of Judaism.

There are some Jews who try to stuff Judaism into the scientific view of the world.

I think this is an act based on lack of understanding or knowledge of Judaism, as well as the concept of G-d.

Judaism teaches to utilize all of Creation to help us fullfill our purpose, of which science is one of the instruments.


No, Judaism teaches that the calendar on earth started 5767 years ago with the creation of Adam.

The text of Geneis 2:4 reads "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." and Genesis 5:1 reads "This is the narrative of the generations of man; on the day that God created man, in the likeness of God He created him."

It is clear even from the Torah text that a 'day' is not what we would consider a day of 24 hours. How can you reconcile the descriptions of generation on the day of creation? You can't and the Torah doesn't say that the world is 5767 years old, it just says that Adam was created 5767 years ago, about the time that writing in Mesopotamia is seen in 3500 BCE.

[scattergood]

my friend, we are discussing the big bang. not "before the big bang".

ex-nihilo means 'out of nothing'.

big bang happened out of something, the gravitational singularity.


show me how the talmud describes the basic idea of the Big Bang theory.

I have shown you the Torah text that describe a creation out of nothing both liguisticially and descriptively. But as I have said before you don't want to hear it or see it because it doesn't conform to the language that you have deemed necessary to be 'true'.

How about you show me where the singularity has existed for all time? That it was't created out of nothing?

[Illuminatus]

has to be one of the best and most informative on the forum

^_^

[1.5 million]

The "Big Bang" is but a theory based upon current scientific understanding. As such it conforms to what is being observed regarding movement of galaxies and of measurments of cosmic background radiation and such. However there is still much about the phenomenon that is not fully understood and our knowledge in this area is still in its infancy. Scientists have only recently speculated on the role of "dark matter" in the universe which is causing celestial bodies to continu accelerating away from each other when past theories predicted that the gravitational mass of star bodies and other matter would overcome the outward push of the "Big Bang" and begin collapse. It is clear to me that we lack more knowledge then we have concerning the forces which are driving what we see and there is still much that is unknown and thus not yet factored into calculations and our knowledge base. I am sure that much will be discovered that will revolutionize what we think we know about the nature of creation and of reality itself. Even the concept of the (known) Universe is likely to be inadequate and at this time we have no way of percieving this "Big bang" directly and can only speculate (entirely inadeuatly) what may have come before it (or where all the matter and energy came from that burst forth out of the (to our limited perception) "singularity". We cannot also discount the existances of other Universes even simultaniously inhabiting the same space-time as our own - in fact current science seems to support the likely existance of such multi-verses. One can never really know however - particularly when we are so tied subjectively to a very limted slice of space-time sense. At this time we are only able to imagine (or in some cases make a case for such concepts through mathmatics) as again our physical (perceptual) limitations prevent us from percieving the deeper realitys. All religions proposed/followed by mankind to date are woefully lacking in any sufficient basis to likewise be much good to us (in understanding the true cosmic nature of things) as reality is in all likelyhood even much beyond our greatest dreamers abilty to imagine and in doing such our guesses and speculations (so often [always] rooted in earthly based human centric reality) are insuficient and by definitin (IMO) are inherently wrong (worse even then science - which can at least give us some handle on our reative reality at least so far as observable cause and effect and speculation based upon measurable applications and such). Still we are bound by the limits of our earthly perceptions and IMO only an ignorant and presumptious fool would claim otherwise.

[#13]

No, Judaism teaches that the calendar on earth started 5767 years ago with the creation of Adam.

The text of Geneis 2:4 reads "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." and Genesis 5:1 reads "This is the narrative of the generations of man; on the day that God created man, in the likeness of God He created him."

It is clear even from the Torah text that a 'day' is not what we would consider a day of 24 hours. How can you reconcile the descriptions of generation on the day of creation? You can't and the Torah doesn't say that the world is 5767 years old, it just says that Adam was created 5767 years ago, about the time that writing in Mesopotamia is seen in 3500 BCE.

Right, Adam was Created 5767 years agon ON THE 6TH DAY OF CREATION.

I am sure you can find your own verses.

And if you want to look up the definition of TOLDOT, wouldn't hurt either. Means order of events if I derive correctly from NOLAD...

And remember, it was evening and it was morning one day... (not sure how long that is in hours, but sure makes one planetary cycle in relation to the sun, or the sun around the earth relative to us humans, still a 1 cycle equals 1 cycle equals 1 day [unless of course you want to redefine evening/morning patter{anything to fit the Torah into science, ha?}])

The first mention is a sum up of the events of Creation, the second is a sum-up of events of Adam's life, and his descendants...

Moreh Nevuchim of Rambam deals a bit with the question of Creation, please look there. It is A GUIDE OF THE PREPLEXED... It could be found online...

[1.5 million]

All I am saying is there is more to religion, at least to mine than what you or most people on this forum or in general seem to know.


I fully agree with this. I see religion as both a social (political) as well as a Physcological phenomenon. We are by nature creatures who ask "why" and we do our best to explain our environment and try to make the best explanations for things and why they happen and what they mean. Our mythologies are a testament to man's wisdom in making sense of things we don't fully understand and to making meaning of things in a way that can be communicated to larger groups. As well religion provides soothing comfort against fears, dangers and the unknowns and acts as a social engineering tool for codifying behaviors acceptable and unacceptable to the group. Religion does many things for those in need of it. And the mythological record tells us much about the thinking and the social norms of ancient peoples and allows us to appreciate their inginuity, wisdom and imagination. But I think it is perhaps time for humans to move on to a greater understanding of our (insignificant or as yet unrealized) place in the cosmos and to understand that there is so much more then life as we know it on our little earth and that while the sotries of our past still have great resonance and meaning we have matured to the point where we can understand the process of how and why they came about and understand their limitations and now use the tools at our disposal now to make better sense of things befitting our evolutionary and intelectual development.

[#13]

You continue attempting to reconcile religion with science by applying a scientific approach to religious beliefs. I agree with you 100% that religious beliefs have no scientific proof.

However, as you have mentioned conserning the multiverse theories, at least at this time there is no way of interaction between them, so it is supported by a universal language of mathematics alone...

I propose, as I have done several times already that there is a Universal language of concepts that can be used to describe reality. Being so Universal that an intelligent being in another Universe with the same concepts of logic would arrive at the same conclusions, much like mathematics.

I propose, that this school of thought exists today, though wrapped in myth, and misunderstanding, but there is clarity in a wellkept esoteric tradition, of which modern Kabbalah is only a poorly popularized version for Dummies... To find the real stuff one would have to do some serious research and then lots of learning to get into the language and slowly into the concepts, to some of which personnal growth is requirement, and that is not a fast process....

[#13]

I fully agree with this. I see religion as both a social (political) as well as a Physcological phenomenon. We are by nature creatures who ask "why" and we do our best to explain our environment and try to make the best explanations for things and why they happen and what they mean. Our mythologies are a testament to man's wisdom in making sense of things we don't fully understand and to making meaning of things in a way that can be communicated to larger groups. As well religion provides soothing comfort against fears, dangers and the unknowns and acts as a social engineering tool for codifying behaviors acceptable and unacceptable to the group. Religion does many things for those in need of it. And the mythological record tells us much about the thinking and the social norms of ancient peoples and allows us to appreciate their inginuity, wisdom and imagination. But I think it is perhaps time for humans to move on to a greater understanding of our (insignificant or as yet unrealized) place in the cosmos and to understand that there is so much more then life as we know it on our little earth and that while the sotries of our past still have great resonance and meaning we have matured to the point where we can understand the process of how and why they came about and understand their limitations and now use the tools at our disposal now to make better sense of things befitting our evolutionary and intelectual development.

What came first the chicken or the egg??? (Please don't answer...) :)

I agree that religion based on a natural response to the unknown has to be taken for what it is, a natural survival reflex.

However, just like many other discoveries were made by complete accident, it may just be, that not all people lacked the gift of intelligence over nature. May it be that some highly intelligent men have found something amongst religious ideas that has inherent value??? Sure the masses are running to burn the witches and to kill the sinners, but there are always a few smart guys around trying to make sense and reason of it all...

I once again agree with your conclusions against religion. But, I am restating that my religion doesn't fall into your definition.

I like this etymological definition from wiki:

Religion = Treating carefully–from Latin re (again) + lego (in the sense of "choose"–this was the interpretation of Cicero) "go over again" or "consider carefully".

Especially the re part....

[1.5 million]

You continue attempting to reconcile religion with science by applying a scientific approach to religious beliefs. I agree with you 100% that religious beliefs have no scientific proof.

Here we agree.


However, as you have mentioned conserning the multiverse theories, at least at this time there is no way of interaction between them, so it is supported by a universal language of mathematics alone...

True and who is to know if our mathmetical understanding is complete enough to consider conclusions based on (only) such to be real/reality. I for one have my doubts. Still the ideas are intriguing and point to the fact that the world/existance as we percieve it is (likely/actually is by definition) incomplete. It is also likely - IMO - that the nature of our temporal and biological existance makes it impossible to percieve and/or even understand all aspects of reality except perhaps in a theoretical sense - and interpretation of such is/will only be guesswork as aspects of such will always exist beyond our ability to experience and thus (properly) comprhend. We may percieve an inkling of such - but it will only be an approximation of effect (as we are affected by) and not the actual thing itself. The main problem being - IMO - the nature of time and of dimensional interactions (or lack therof)


I propose, as I have done several times already that there is a Universal language of concepts that can be used to describe reality. Being so Universal that an intelligent being in another Universe with the same concepts of logic would arrive at the same conclusions, much like mathematics.

You are obviously an idealist. And your belief amounts to no more then speculation. Considering you - like all humans - are more lacking in knowledge then we possess - in all likelyhood our guesses are more wrong then right. If there are such universal understandings for the most part they are beyond us. Even mathamatics (as we understand the laws that seem evident to us - that we have derived based on our time-dimensional perspective) is perhaps an incomplete thing refelcting - at best - partial truth.


I propose, that this school of thought exists today, though wrapped in myth, and misunderstanding, but there is clarity in a wellkept esoteric tradition, of which modern Kabbalah is only a poorly popularized version for Dummies...

Again...speculation. Though myths tell us a great deal...and I have always seen a great value to religion and myths incorporated and passed on by religion in terms of maintaining cultural cohesiveness...ie tradition.


To find the real stuff one would have to do some serious research and then lots of learning to get into the language and slowly into the concepts, to some of which personnal growth is requirement, and that is not a fast process....

Agreed - and while I have investigated far more then most I would never claim to be a master (more of a jack of all trades!!) I understand some of the basic concepts of the Kabbalah (and the all important tie with Hebrew names [and numbers/word - number relationships and such] of things - being considered as [representative of] power/reality in itself) as I understand the divisions and roles of the Sefriah of the tree of life - but admittedly all on a basic level (as i am neither a practicioner nor conversant in Hebrew - thus missing a great deal of the underpinnings. But I do also have a similar knowledge/understanding of the I Ching and the Tarot and of a great deal of the fundemental underpinnings of Hermetic and Eastern magiks - so I have a much greater foundation of understanding of the underpinnings of this type of thinking and its various meanings and what can be gained by such...etc etc...and I don't discount the wisodm and perhaps even (personal) power(s) that can be gained by such things...within limits of course...I have done a great deal of cross cultural/cross system comparisons of these systems (and more) with the attempt to get to the basic shared concepts and underpinnings of each. I suspect my library would be quite impressive to those who are into these things (and there would be some who might suggest burning me at the stake! lol)...I used to throw a mean Tarot (purely for fun of course....my level of belief in all of these systems only goes so far...still much of interest...)

[#13]

Let me also propose that the Jewish contribution in this field has been unparallelled, much like in many other fields, and men known among the men by simple but telling stories were geniuses in these matters as Einsteing is for Physics or Freud for Psycholgy.

I am convinced that other schools of thought on the subject are either based on Kabbalah or are traditional systems that though have stumbled upon some spiritual constants have not been able to purify and utilize them, at least not as the Forefathers of Judaism.

I will restate that though on a small scale the tradition of the more intricate lessons from these great men has not only been preserved but has continued to grow and develop keeping Judaism alive through fire and water...

I consider myself nothing more than a realist, is it my fault that the most harmonious (to me) view of the world is idealistic?

[#13]

About the inadequacies you mention with mathematics as one of the limitations of our perceptions...

Creativity and imagination have a potential to discover ways of perception beyond our sensory perception, which also has value in finding constant withing any logical system, as well as possibly discovering a concept unattainable within another system....

Even though, mathematics or physics may be languages meaningful only to us, there are constants, as Yaakov is said to have possessed the aspect of Truth, which is explained as the nail piercing all levels through the center. Teaching that on any level of perception there is a point of truth, a constant... Hence, developing our understanding can at least give us a possibility of recognizing these constants when we encounter them...

It is said that at the time when the world will reach its completion (Messianic Age) the only difference between those who are familiar with Esoteric Wisdom and those ignorant of it will be that the ones familiar will be able to percieve through recognizing these constants...

On a side note, according to Judaism the soul is separate from the body and not dependent on it, so when the body stops to function, the soul is released, however based on the limitations the body has tortured the soul with it is often difficult for the soul to obtain peace being tied down by the experience of the body. Maximum purification from the experience lasts 11 yearthly month, which is why the prayer for them is said only for 11 month after passing... Some, however are said to pass away by a divine kiss, as did Moshe and Aharon for example, entering peacefully a familiar state...

Sure all this as has become popular on this thread is called speculation, but it is enforced by an existence of a unique nation called Israel and their unusual history, achievments, and many well documented and constant, unchanging traditions of having experiences of divine intervention, not only in an individual experience, but as national events... It is just a step up from speculation. Illuminatis asked for incredible proof, and though proof has a wide definition, an unchanging national tradition does fall into one of them, and it is an amazing tradition, not only by what it tells us but by the way Jews continue to effect the world...

[Agnosthiest]

I have shown you the Torah text that describe a creation out of nothing both liguisticially and descriptively. But as I have said before you don't want to hear it or see it because it doesn't conform to the language that you have deemed necessary to be 'true'.


scattergood, I believe you that the Torah describes a creation out of nothing. but dude, thats not what big bang is.



How about you show me where the singularity has existed for all time? That it was't created out of nothing?
the big bang is about what happened to the singularity as it exploded. NOT BEFORE it exploded.

Admit it, your religious texts shows nothing of the big bang. you are being like those muslim apologists who propagandize scientific miracles that are not really there.

[1.5 million]

Let me also propose that the Jewish contribution in this field has been unparallelled...

I am convinced that other schools of thought on the subject are either based on Kabbalah or are traditional systems that though have stumbled upon some spiritual constants have not been able to purify and utilize them, at least not as the Forefathers of Judaism.


Again more speculation that is not borne out by factual historical analysis. Just like all your beliefs aparently - they are based on purely a subjective reality.

When the Isrealites were but more insignificant shepards - the civilizations of Egypt, Sumer, the Indus Valley, China, and others were advanced and dominstrated advanced knowledge of magical systems. It seems very clear that the Hebrew knowledge was aglomerated from Babylonian and Egyptian knowledges that preceeded it. Again - it certainly has its own character - but in effect the concepts of the Kabbalah basically mimic those of other such systems (and I know this as I have done a bit of cross cultural research in this area).

For instance the most famous Egyptiologist E.A. Wallis Budge in EGYPTIAN MAGIC describes how Moses was an adept of Egyptian magic (which, if true - would indicate that such predated the Torah):

"From the Hebrews we receive, incidentally, it is true, considerable information about the powers of the Egyptian magician. Saint Stephen boasts that the great legislator Moses "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians," and declares that he "was mighty in words and in deeds," 1 and there are numerous features in the life of this remarkable man which shew that he was acquainted with many of the practices of Egyptian magic. The phrase "mighty in words" probably means that, like the goddess Isis, he was "strong of tongue" and uttered the words of power which he knew with correct pronunciation, and halted not in his speech, and was perfect both in giving the command and in saying the word. The turning of a serpent into what is apparently an inanimate, wooden stick, 1 and the turning of the stick back into a writhing snake, 2 are feats which have been performed in the East from the most ancient period; and the power to control and direct the movements of such venomous reptiles was one of the things of which the Egyptian was most proud, and in which he was most skilful, already in the time when the pyramids were being built. But this was by no means the only proof which Moses gives that he was versed in the magic of the Egyptians, for, like the sage Âba-aner and king Nectanebus, and all the other magicians of Egypt from time immemorial, he and Aaron possessed a wonderful rod 3 by means of which they worked their wonders. At the word of Moses Aaron lifted up his rod and smote the waters and they became blood; he stretched it out over the waters, and frogs innumerable appeared; when the dust was smitten by the rod it became lice; and so on."

[1.5 million]

according to Judaism the soul is separate from the body and not dependent on it, so when the body stops to function, the soul is released...


Perhaps there are two souls - a good one and a bad one - and the fight it out after the body withers away to see which will get to actively animate the next physical being to come along...yeah...thats the ticket...

[#13]

Perhaps there are two souls - a good one and a bad one - and the fight it out after the body withers away to see which will get to actively animate the next physical being to come along...yeah...thats the ticket...

Correct, there are two souls, one is rooted in the body, an effect thereof, and is therefore limited by the functioning and longevity of the body. The second is rooted in the Divinity, being eternal and infinite in its source. The only fighting is the shaking off of the limitation, or exile that the divine soul had to suffer during its stay with the body.

[#13]

Again more speculation that is not borne out by factual historical analysis. Just like all your beliefs aparently - they are based on purely a subjective reality.

When the Isrealites were but more insignificant shepards - the civilizations of Egypt, Sumer, the Indus Valley, China, and others were advanced and dominstrated advanced knowledge of magical systems. It seems very clear that the Hebrew knowledge was aglomerated from Babylonian and Egyptian knowledges that preceeded it. Again - it certainly has its own character - but in effect the concepts of the Kabbalah basically mimic those of other such systems (and I know this as I have done a bit of cross cultural research in this area).

For instance the most famous Egyptiologist E.A. Wallis Budge in EGYPTIAN MAGIC describes how Moses was an adept of Egyptian magic (which, if true - would indicate that such predated the Torah):

"From the Hebrews we receive, incidentally, it is true, considerable information about the powers of the Egyptian magician. Saint Stephen boasts that the great legislator Moses "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians," and declares that he "was mighty in words and in deeds," 1 and there are numerous features in the life of this remarkable man which shew that he was acquainted with many of the practices of Egyptian magic. The phrase "mighty in words" probably means that, like the goddess Isis, he was "strong of tongue" and uttered the words of power which he knew with correct pronunciation, and halted not in his speech, and was perfect both in giving the command and in saying the word. The turning of a serpent into what is apparently an inanimate, wooden stick, 1 and the turning of the stick back into a writhing snake, 2 are feats which have been performed in the East from the most ancient period; and the power to control and direct the movements of such venomous reptiles was one of the things of which the Egyptian was most proud, and in which he was most skilful, already in the time when the pyramids were being built. But this was by no means the only proof which Moses gives that he was versed in the magic of the Egyptians, for, like the sage Âba-aner and king Nectanebus, and all the other magicians of Egypt from time immemorial, he and Aaron possessed a wonderful rod 3 by means of which they worked their wonders. At the word of Moses Aaron lifted up his rod and smote the waters and they became blood; he stretched it out over the waters, and frogs innumerable appeared; when the dust was smitten by the rod it became lice; and so on."


How unfortunate is then the fact that G-d forbids practice of magic...

I guess your saint skipped the part where G-d instructs Moshe about the staff and the miracles that Moshe is to perform before Pharoh, which according to the Torah eventually proved even to the sourcerers of Egypt that this is, to quote them "the finger of G-d..." The serpent wonder as Moshe performed it, also was beyond what the Egytians could do.

You could argue that Moshe simply advanced their magic, but considering the prohibitions against it, I am going to propose the obvious once again. There is a power greater then all magic, it is the power of G-d who intervenes for his servant...

Surely, Avraham and Moshe were familiar with wisdom of the times, which Jew isn't? However their approach to reality was fundamentally different. Instead of using sourcery to effect reality, Judaism teaches one to connect self to G-d by fullfilling His Will, then G-d Himself becomes ones Shephard.

[#13]

Just wondering, are my responses so obvious only to me? or may be you guys should start answering your own questions...

Does this forum have an auto-pilot feature?

[#13]

The discussion about souls reminded me of a few other things, leading back to the topic of this thread...

The divine soul I mentioned before that is always present in either internal or hover mode in addition to the animating/body soul is only in the case of the Jews due to the Covenants formed by our Forefathers where G-d included the seed and the natione into the pact, making the divine connection innate to a Jew.

However, a Gentile at birth possesses an animating soul alone, like all other Creations, and by being a Noahide, namely learning about G-d and being a good human being accepts a Noahide Covenant upon himself thereby forming ones own divine soul. This soul however is not passed on to the children...

Considering a Gentile develops a divine soul, this will be the ones eternal self, and things like a life without a body apply, otherwise, the animating force keeping the body in existence is dissolved with the body that has never accepted G-d, like all other Creations...

Therefore, Noahidism would be the way to go for Gentiles, unless they are into a limited existence...

[#13]

It is possible that most people fall into an impure form of Noahidism already, thus most probably will have some kind of an eternal existence, post-mortum.

If someone desires to accept upon oneself additional Commandments and enter into the Covenants of Israel, that option is open to all who take it seriously.

[#13]

Ye, ye, I know, lots of speculation, bla, bla, bla...

:p

[1.5 million]

Yes - our gods (and beliefs) are good - their gods are bad (Demons and Devils all...and their religion is all made up myths & magic...only ours is truly devine...etc) - of course..isn't it always the way...sad

[#13]

I already said above:

"It is possible that most people fall into an impure form of Noahidism already, thus most probably will have some kind of an eternal existence, post-mortum."


It is strange that you are so irrational when it comes to religious ideas.

I wonder why that is. May be you are just frustrated by the BS from those who pervert religious ideas for their own benefit. Though I am not free of an ego, I do believe that by presenting ones views in an open forum, one can determine whether certain ideas come from the ego or from logic.

However, an irrational attack like yours above is not very productive. If you thing my logic is flawed, please respond within the bounds of logic.

Thanks.

[#13]

spec·u·la·tion (spĕk'yə-lā'shən)
n.

Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.

Engagement in risky business transactions on the chance of quick or considerable profit.
A commercial or financial transaction involving speculation.


Speculative reason
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
“ In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. — Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut ”

Speculative reason or pure reason is theoretical (or logical, deductive) thought (sometimes called theoretical reason), as opposed to practical (active, willing) thought. The distinction between the two goes at least as far back as the ancient Greeks philosophers, such as Plato and Aristotle, who distinguished between theory (theoria, or a wide, bird's eye view of a topic, or clear vision of its structure) and practice (praxis), as well as productive knowledge (techne).

Speculative reason is contemplative, detached, and certain, whereas practical reason is engaged, involved, active, and dependent upon the specifics of the situation. Speculative reason provides the universal, necessary principles of logic, such as the principle of contradiction, which must apply everywhere, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

Practical reason, on the other hand, is that power of the mind engaged in deciding what to do. It is also referred to as moral reason, because it involves action, decision, and particulars. Though many other thinkers have erected systems based on the distinction, two important later thinkers who have done so are Aquinas (who follows Aristotle in many respects) and Kant.

[1.5 million]

#13 - there is really no need for me to post any more on this issue...you are doing quite well in your postings to prove all of my points.

[1.5 million]

NEW YORK–Attorneys representing the Tribe of Abraham filed suit against God in New York's Southern District Court Monday, citing 117 specific instances of breach of covenant.

...

"My client, the Children of Israel, entered into this covenant with the Defendant in good faith. They were assured, in writing, that in exchange for their exclusive worship of Him, they would be designated His chosen people and, as such, would enjoy His divine protection and guidance for eternity," said Marvin Sachs, the Manhattan attorney bringing the suit on behalf of the Israelites. "Yet, practically from the moment this covenant was signed, the Defendant has exhibited a blatant and willful disregard for its terms."

...

"For 5,760 years, the plaintiff has honored their side of the contract, worshipping the Defendant with total devotion. But in return, they have gotten bupkes," Sachs said. "They trusted Him to protect them, and He threw them to everyone from the Egyptians to the Cossacks to the Nazis to the Palestinians. I'd have a hard time believing that anyone even remotely familiar with the plaintiff's history would argue that they're not victims of detrimental reliance."

Harrigan responded that God's case is clear under the provisions of New York's commercial code.

"We have yet to determine whether the Jews are arguing for the Covenant of Abraham, which covers homeland and birthright issues, the Davidic Covenant, under which they say they were guaranteed a Messiah, or some combination of the two," Harrigan said. "But one thing is clear: Standard assumptions for any legal contract in this district specifically state that the Defendant is not responsible for acts of God."

Continued Harrigan: "I must also point out that the plaintiff has been given a homeland and offered at least one viable Messiah. If the plaintiff chooses not to accept them for whatever reason, it demonstrates that no meeting of the minds was truly possible and that they acted in bad faith, and the covenant is therefore rendered null and void."

Harrigan went on to note that the Lord has not ruled out filing a breach-of-covenant countersuit against the Israelites, claiming that they "have failed to worship the Lord in an acceptably faithful manner." Among the evidence cited: a 70 percent rise in interfaith marriage among Jews since 1900 and last year's turnout of just 36 percent at worldwide Yom Kippur services.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28676

[#13]

#13 - there is really no need for me to post any more on this issue...you are doing quite well in your postings to prove all of my points.

I guess you win afterall. I am happy my views prove your points. Obviously lacking in your depth of perception, I fail to see how.

I do however appreciate the concerns you have raised. They have given me a chance to clarify some ideas.

Thank You, and see you in another thread...

Peace and Blessings!

[The Israeli Guy]

http://www.noachide.org.uk/index.htm
http://www.noachidechassid.com/news.php
http://www.bneinoach.org/news.php
Former Christian talks (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=118101)

[1.5 million]

I guess you win afterall. I am happy my views prove your points. Obviously lacking in your depth of perception, I fail to see how.

You claim that your (religious) views are not in conflisct with science...then you detail how creation (reality of the Universe and not just even life on Earth...but still) are a mere 5 or 6 odd thousand years old - and that your diety has just chosen to fool us - chosen to in a sense make a mockery of science. etc Well I'm sorry - either you are just outright wrong about the 5-6 thousand year claim (as I believe) and scientific inquiry tells us better (and is reasonably accurate in its findings) or what you are saying is true (though I see no reason to believe such...unless of course I should also employ leeches and such to suck out my bad humours and such that are ailing me...or consult a Voodoo Witch doctor instead of going to an MD - etc) - and then clearly - if this deceptive (and through accounts of your sacred books - most flawed and seemingly nasty and at considerable odds to the well being of mankind) so-called diety of yours were to actually exist - then I would say he is mankinds #1 enemy. He obviously is trying to get us back to the state of ignorance that we lived in the Garden of Eden (Ignorance is indeed bliss...) and I for one don't feel that its proper to devieve us in so many ways and try to keep us stupid and ignorant. So - if indeed your diety is real - I would view him/it as akin to the Christian Devil. And I would hope that the Serpent is not without some power to help us against this domineering presence who works in every way to limit us, fool us, punish us and prevent us from reaching our potential as thinking and feeling creatures...who...I would have to say...are much better off being left to fend for ourselves and figure it out for ourselves. Even if such a being created us...or perhaps an entity such as Enki did so at the behest of the group of gods - and then gave us a higher level functioning brain and emotions and such - then what right still does such a one have to decieve us and force us to ignorance? In this I will profess my alleigence to the Serpent...to Prometheus....to Enki - who understood how this god/thesze gods betray us and who worked towards freeing us for knowledge. Why is this so called supreme being so threatened? Why must he have us as slaves...fawning over him, worshiping him and limited ourselves in his name...conceited ba st ar d! Sorry - if he exists I would brand your god (and his Christian/Muslim cousins) as the enemy. And the Serpent (who as well has been falsely and deceptively branded as the enemy of mankind) would be who we humans should truly look to (and it fits - considering all the deception to date...maybe this is what we are to mature and ultimatly realize eh? Maybe when we do all wars and bloodshed and nasty stuff will end eh? If it only were so easy...). In a similar veign I believe that Christians should be worshiping (and not condemning ) Judas - I mean who sacrificed greater - he is allegedly dammned for eternity for playing his part - for going through the ordained motions to bring about human salvation - and look who gets all the praise and billboard placements and gets to sit up on high drinking fuzzy navels or whatever it is that gets him off for eternity...and now he is up there cavorting with Anna Nicole Smith...well I supose there are some downsides...

[#13]

Wow!

Ok, my friend, I answered your questions of how there is no conflict between Judaism and science, and how there is no deception in Creating the past according to the Laws of Nature to provide intelligent beings with freedom of choice to have the ability to search for and choose G-d.

But your views seem to somehow blind you. May be to some science is just such a big light that you forget that there is more...

Judaism is all for science, and I repeat there is no contradiction in any true science to Judaism.

[#13]

Like I said, I tried to explain my views, but now see that I miserably failed...

[#13]

For those who believe that our traditions are not legends and myth, I thought it would be interested to add that a jewish soul is composed of 613 spiritual counterpars correlating to the 613 Commandments, through which our soul lives...

[#13]

WOW, great site!

http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1