War on Terror.

[Odysee]

Is Palestine a legitimate target in the War on Terror. If you ask me, they should have been wiped out long ago.

[Solon]

Sure, the Palestinians are a legitimate target, as they are one of the main sources of global terrorism.

But the U.S. is too weak to truly stand up to Muslim terror. Dick, Bush and Colon are only ready to strike at weak, insignificant countries like Afghanistan, Somalia, etc. Maybe, just maybe, the U.S. will try to go after Saddam, who is basically a non-factor anyway.

The U.S. has no ability, nor the guts to confront the true sources of worldwide terrorism like the Palestinians, like Syria, like Iran, like Saudi Arabia, etc.

So, I doubt that any action against the Palestinian mass-murderers will ever occur. Only Israel fights them, much to the criticism of the Arabist European Union.

[magnin]

One's "terrorist" is the other side's "freedom fighter".
Were your country ocupied by a colonizing foreign military force, you would certainly be cupporting those who wage violent war on the occupiers.

"Terrorist" is a propaganda word. It has been used by the nazis in WWII, and by virtually every conquering country in modern history to name opposing resistance movements.

The real problem is : "who is the occupier ?" "who is right ?".
Branding people as "terrorists" is merely a convenient way to avoid thinking.

Regards.



Originally posted by Solon
Sure, the Palestinians are a legitimate target, as they are one of the main sources of global terrorism.

But the U.S. is too weak to truly stand up to Muslim terror. Dick, Bush and Colon are only ready to strike at weak, insignificant countries like Afghanistan, Somalia, etc. Maybe, just maybe, the U.S. will try to go after Saddam, who is basically a non-factor anyway.

The U.S. has no ability, nor the guts to confront the true sources of worldwide terrorism like the Palestinians, like Syria, like Iran, like Saudi Arabia, etc.

So, I doubt that any action against the Palestinian mass-murderers will ever occur. Only Israel fights them, much to the criticism of the Arabist European Union.

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by magnin
One's "terrorist" is the other side's "freedom fighter".
Were your country ocupied by a colonizing foreign military force, you would certainly be cupporting those who wage violent war on the occupiers.

"Terrorist" is a propaganda word.


I think that at the point that the "freedom fighter" mass murders women and children at discos and pizza shops, then he/she is nothing but a mass murderer and a terrorist and needs to be dealt with accordingly.

[magnin]

Unfortunately this forum hosts several members who routinely express racist opinions [on the arabs], like Mr Not Belin. It is always fruitless to argue on such forums.

All they deserve is to go back to school, and try to mingle with people of different origins - to see that they are not 'beasts'.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by magnin
Unfortunately this forum hosts several members who routinely express racist opinions [on the arabs], like Mr Not Belin. It is always fruitless to argue on such forums.

All they deserve is to go back to school, and try to mingle with people of different origins - to see that they are not 'beasts'.

Magnin,

I don't believe we've seen any racism from the members you mentioned here. In fact, racist remarks violate this forum's "Rules of the Road" which are clearly posted. If you feel that someone violated our rules, please give an example of a racist remark, so we can understand what you're referring to.

What I have noticed, however, is that people like yourself who like to make all kinds of grandiose pronouncements criticising Israeli policies, are hardly ever able to defend their point of view when questioned, and then quickly disappear from the forum.

It's very easy to just criticise and then run away. That's your option, but don't expect to be taken seriously or respected at all by our members and readers.

[takeo]

I can imagine the reason why they quickly disappear, never our opposing viewpoints are taken into consideration or discussed and we are insulted with sometimes racist and personal remarks(I agree sometimes i got carried away and replied to them with personal insults as well, but only as a reaction).
In my next post i will post some examples of what is pure racism on this board, so i hope you can take mesures against those members.
about the "war on terrorism". The palestinians were not responsible for the acts in the US. And what i hear is "target the palestinians", so i don't hear, target hamas or jihad, but the total palestinian population.
and magnin is right, there is a difference between terrorism and resistance to occupation. Attacks against an occupiing force are never terrorism, attacks on innocent civilians are. So the Israeli government is equally responsible for terrorism (by the way the mossad is in many countries considered as a terrorist organisation).

[takeo]

posted by wheelman on "israel must stop":

""The IDF is a stronger fighting force than your own, Humanitarian. They can and should drive the Palestinians out of Israel and back to Jordan where they belong.
The "reality of the situation" is that Arabs are animals that cannot even live with themselves."




"France is a cowardly country that has never had any integrity. They immediately folded when the Nazis marched in in WWII and have been semi-nazis and arabists ever since. Ugly people.

The belgians are even a lower form of the French, which is pretty sad if you think about it."
posted by negev on "the path of destruction".

"I think the bottom line is that Arabs on the whole aren't good neighbors and they NEVER will be. " posted by L@mplighterM in "the path of destruction"


there are other obvious examples of racism on this board as well but i'm too lasy to search them all.

[takeo]

just a note to newsguy: just imagine all the sentences above and replace "arabs" or "belgians" or Palestinians by "Jews". Would you call it anti-semitism or not?
let me help you:
"They can and should drive the Jews out of Israel and back to Jordan where they belong.
The "reality of the situation" is that Jews are animals that cannot even live with themselves."
"The Jews are even a lower form of the French, which is pretty sad if you think about it."
"I think the bottom line is that Jews on the whole aren't good neighbors and they NEVER will be. "
would you call this anti-semitism or wouldn't you?

[aid]

We call everyone who is critical about France "anti-Gaulist".

The Gauls have been persecuted for two thousand years - by the Roman Empire, then by the English, then by the Germans, and all the time by the Jews. Captain Dreyfus for example committed a treason against poor France. The good French people have been complaining about the scheming perfidious Jews forever, but no one would listen to them and appreciate their sufferings. This is why they have to refer to Jews as "sale Juif".

The Jews have killed dozens of thousands of Frenchmen by collaborating with Germans. So that's it: this is nothing else but anti-Gaulism and anti-Gaulish racism.

The forum is even more racist about one particular group of the Gauls called Vallons. THis is a racist anti-Vallonist forum.

It is an anti-Arab forum for sure. If you mention Arab terrorism, you are an anti-Arab racist. You can't mention it. They can murder people to their heart content - it is all politically correct because some Jews dare to live beyond their Pale of Settlement. Jews may not live in Judea (Jewland) or Samaria. The people of Israel may not live in the land of Israel. If they do, or they find nothing wrong with it, they are racists, colonialists, pepetrators of apartheid and, needless to say, Nazis.

Similarly, if they dare to defend themselves against the just war of liberation (liberation of the land of Israel from the people of Israel), they are Nazis again. THey are Nazis if they are not willing to commit a suicide when Frenchmen tell them to do so.

In fact, not committing a suicide when told so is a form of anti-Gaulism.

Bon merci.

[takeo]

well, let me change your text a little bit to make it reality:

It is an anti-Israeli forum for sure. If you mention israeli occupation, you are an anti-semit. You can't mention it. They can murder people to their heart content - it is all politically correct because some arabs dare to live in what they consider their "choosen land". Arabs may not live in Israel, where they were born and lived for 1000's of years. The palestinians may not live in Palestine and fight against foreign occupation. If they do, or they find nothing wrong with it, they are racists, terrorists, and, needless to say, Nazis.

Similarly, if they dare to defend themselves against the just war of liberation (liberation of Palestine from the palestinians), they are Nazis again. THey are Nazis if they are not willing to go away when Sharon tells them to do so.

In fact, not leaving when told so is a form of anti-semitism.

[aid]

foreign occupation

It is impossible for Israel to be a foreign occupier of her own land.

Descartes traditions are not operative in his native land anymore.

Instead, crude Arab propaganda is.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
well, let me change your text a little bit to make it reality:

It is an anti-Israeli forum for sure. If you mention israeli occupation, you are an anti-semit. You can't mention it.

...

Similarly, if they dare to defend themselves against the just war of liberation (liberation of Palestine from the palestinians), they are Nazis again. THey are Nazis if they are not willing to go away when Sharon tells them to do so.

...

In fact, not leaving when told so is a form of anti-semitism.

First of all, here is an Opinion Piece (http://www.israelforum.com/opinions/opinion-01-09-11.shtml) posted in this forum that deals with the subject of Israel occupation. (or paste www.israelforum.com/opinions/opinion-01-09-11.shtml into your browser). I would personally like to see a Palestinian state with defined borders, alongside a secure Israel, to eliminate the cost and agonizing national toll that the current status quo has taken on Israel's morale and economy.

As for your second point, I find it puzzling that you keep on calling it a war of "liberation", when the Palestinians were already liberated years ago and given complete autonomy in all of their major cities. In fact, Israel has practically begged them to accept a fully independent state on several occasions.

Whether or not the Palstinians are in love with every single comma and period in the peace offer is not really material. The point is that Israel has always been willing to negotiate a peace agreement, and their offers have always been met with more and more Palestinian violence.

The reason people here find your views to be anti-semitic or reflecting a national hatred is just your repeated use of terms like genocide, nazism and ethnic cleansing to describe Israel's actions.

Those are completely false terms used as propaganda tools by anti-semites. Even if you are just a person with the desire to express what you think are humanitarian views, you are repeating the terms spread by the most vicious of anti-semites.

Nonetheless, you are entitled to your opinions, but you can expect that some people will agree with you, while many others will express their displeasure with your words.

btw - here's some food for thought for those reading this discussion: other than his terminology, Takeo's ideas are by-and-large shared by many in the Israeli left-wing with politicians like Yossi Sarid exemplifying this fact.

[takeo]

Yes Israel is an occupiing force. Their army is still present in territory that doesn't belong to Israel, according to the whole world including the US. the palestinians may have some isolated islands of own jurisdiction, but all major roads, watersources, setlements are still controlled by israel, and even the "liberated" parts are more than occasionally raided by Israel (this are more than comma's and details). All this is far from liberation and an end of occupation. an end of occupation would mean a total withdrawel from this territory and nothing less. i think Israel has thus never offered that to the Palestinians in exchange of peace and recognistion of Israel.
You use this same words against me and against for example the PLO, so it is a kind of self-defense to use words as nazism, racism etc. However the policy of Israel does have some similarities with the nazist policy (one people is worth more than another, only Jews can immigrate to israel, not people who lived there for centuries but aren't Jews, Israel only for the jews, the disproportionated reprisals against the whole population, etc.) . however i never said it IS completely nazi, because the nazi's would have exterminated the Palestinians as some extremist Israeli want too.
The policy of Israel is however etnic cleansing, absolutely and completely. Refugees who are not allowed back were they and families lived for centuries because they belong to a different race and destroying Palestinian houses to build Jewish settlements is definately etnic cleansing. The UN thinks it is, and israel didn't sign the Geneva-conventions for some reason. i suggest you go ask this to a specialist in international law if it is etnic cleansing or not.
and please stop using the term anti-semite for anyone who doesn't like the policy of Israel. They don't like this policy because it victimises another people, not because Israel is a jewish state.



"Nonetheless, you are entitled to your opinions, but you can expect that some people will agree with you, while many others will express their displeasure with your words. "

I did expect this, as this is an Israeli room and most participants have the same opinion. I hope however that for once they will question their Sacred Truth and not only blaim other people for everything that has happened. i don't think they are bad people or really nazists etc. but they have been indoctrinated by propaganda from always the same side. (which isn't true for me, i never listen to any arab propaganda, just listen to the news from all sides, and try to analyse the facts for myself)

"btw - here's some food for thought for those reading this discussion: other than his terminology, Takeo's ideas are by-and-large shared by many in the Israeli left-wing with politicians like Yossi Sarid exemplifying this fact."

Yes, this is true and another indication that what i think is not Arab propaganda but shared by a lot of critical Jews. If those people had been elected instead of sharon, netanyahu or conservative labour-members, i'm almost sure that the war in the middle east was something of the past.

[aid]

Takeo's views are going way beyond Sarid and even Avnery.
His are extreme al-Fateh views - the radical wing of it.

[takeo]

why don't you say that i've send my son on a suicide mission to kill as much Israeli as possible. In fact I have been send by hamas to destroy this board:rolleyes:

Aid, I showed this board to my friends (Americans), and according to them you are the real extremist on this board, together with negev and wheelman.

[takeo]

"His are extreme al-Fateh views - the radical wing of it"
So by saying this you confirm that fatah is even more reasonable and moderate and willing to accept peace on the condition that un-resolutions are respected (I don't think so my views are equal to the radical wing of fatah but anyway).
your views on the contrary are the views of the right-wing (one can say the extremist wing) of Likud, even more extremist than "bibi" and Sharon.

[aid]

All Fateh is extremist except just a few people. Sari Nusseibeh is one of them.

They are extremist because they (you including) seek to obliterate Israel by the so-called "Right of Return", and by denying Israel's rights to Israel's land, i.e. the legitimacy of the State of Israel.

This is not going to work. No "Right of Return" ever - even Gush Shalom, is against it. No denying of Israel's legitimacy. Israel is just as legitimate as France or Egypt. You can forget about that.

AS for the Hamas Charter, it is simply amazing that you can't find it.

You must be using an Arab search engine, which cannot find it, or Israel, or any evidence of Israel's rights to Israel. Or it could be a special Franco-Belgian engine.

I use the search engine called "Google" created by Russian Jews. That search engine when supplied with the keywords "Hamas" and "Charter" provides a list of sites the first of which says "Hamas Charter" - in plain English.

Here is the link:

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/hamas.html

It's that simple. Drop your Hamas-developed engine, mon cher ami, and use Google. Please relieve your ignorance. Your knowledge and understnading of the ME conflict is at the level of al-Ahram or Pravda propaganda.

Now, regarding your claims about the French right supporting Israel. These claims are ridiculous. The Gaullists have been anti-Israel since after the Six-Day War. De Gaulle was notoriously anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. Pompidou was even worse - the worst of them. Giscard was anti-Israel. Chirac is anti-Israel.

Only the moderate French Left - Mitterand type was a little more balanced. I have not been able to find Le Pen's pronouncement re Israel, but an open anti-Semite like him cannot be possibly pro-Israel. I don't know much about the guy, but I know everything about his counterparts in Russia. There, the fascists and communists have come together into the so-called "Red-Brown coalition. Both the extreme right Russian nationalists and extreme left Russian communists (internationalists) share hatred for Israel. If you read their newspapers, it's the same stuff you write. You could write there if you were a little less ignorant and more sophisticated.

The same thing is observable in France by the way. The French extreme left is rabidly anti-Israel and consequently (or maybe the other way around) anti-Semitic. Roger Garaudy - the Holocaust denier - his views re Israel are indistinguishable from yours.

You and the French Right, you and the Arab propaganda, you and the extreme French Left are perfect together. Birds from the same nest.

As long you prevail, there will be no peace in the ME.








:) :)

[takeo]

Al Fatah just want Israel to respect the UN-resolutions. Nothing extreme about that. Israel on the other hand thinks it has the right to ignore them (seems more extremist to me).

"They are extremist because they (you including) seek to obliterate Israel by the so-called "Right of Return", and by denying Israel's rights to Israel's land, i.e. the legitimacy of the State of Israel.
This is not going to work. No "Right of Return" ever - even Gush Shalom, is against it. No denying of Israel's legitimacy. Israel is just as legitimate as France or Egypt. You can forget about that."

Yes, the right is included in the UN-resolutions as well and recognised as legitimate by Israel's leader on the condition that a peace-treaty with israel's neighbours will be concluded. A lot of peace-treaties yet (and more to come if Israel would give back the Holan-heights), but not yet right of return.
This is not undermining or denying the right of existance of Israel. in France and germany every citizen born in that country and living there for decades and his family are wellcome to come back, whatever etnicity they have. this is so because they signed the Geneva-conventions, which every civilised state in the world has done. To deny this people a peacefull right of return to the land they have lived for centuries is extremism and etnic cleansing, and it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of israel to exist. It doesn't mean that because Israel has the right to exist that it can expell citizens who aren't jewish.

Just for your information, i always use google, and used it this time as well. I found this website as well but not the text you selected.


"Now, regarding your claims about the French right supporting Israel. These claims are ridiculous. The Gaullists have been anti-Israel since after the Six-Day War. De Gaulle was notoriously anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. Pompidou was even worse - the worst of them. Giscard was anti-Israel. Chirac is anti-Israel.
Only the moderate French Left - Mitterand type was a little more balanced. I have not been able to find Le Pen's pronouncement re Israel, but an open anti-Semite like him cannot be possibly pro-Israel. I don't know much about the guy, but I know everything about his counterparts in Russia. There, the fascists and communists have come together into the so-called "Red-Brown coalition. Both the extreme right Russian nationalists and extreme left Russian communists (internationalists) share hatred for Israel. If you read their newspapers, it's the same stuff you write. You could write there if you were a little less ignorant and more sophisticated. "

France has always recogised Israel since the beginning, it even did support Israel in the Suez-crisis (a very big mistake). Your claims that De Gaulle is anti-semit is just plain bullshit, the same bullshit as claiming that i am anti-semit, hamas-supporter, that France is taken over by Arabs, etc. He just was a little more critical than the US, who gave unconditional support for Israel whatever it did, violating international laws or not. Besides I hate De gaulle for his colonialist policy but he is certainly not a fascist, he was the one who resisted Vichy-regime, remember?
Le Pen has referred sevaral times to the israeli fight that this is the way the frensh should treat the Arabs as well. He is truly an anti-Arab racist, and that is indeed also a kind of anti-semitism(arabs are semites too, remember?) . Israel has some nice friends and its policy against the Palestinians inspires certain persons. It is evidence that even anti-semitism and support for israel can go together. (and it is certainly evidence that anti-semitism and critics to israel are two very different things.)
about Russia, i once looked at the site of the pravda (in english) and did see articles critical to Israel but nothing anti-semitic about it. i saw at the names (for example Davidovich) that some cooperaters were Jews themselves. I don't think the Russian radical left is anti-semite. The Soviet-Union took a much harder stand against nazism than the West (that is why many nazi's tried to escape to western germany at the last moment). Some may be anti-semitic, as anti-semitism is something very deeply rooted in russian history, the Soviets tried to ban it, but didn't completely succeeded. I agree that Zirinovsky is anti-semite (a real one), but i don't remember saying anything in favor of zirinovsky, did I?
I can assure you that in the Frensh left and radical left there is not the slightest anti-semitism, many high profile leaders of the Frensh communist parties are Jews and I am member as well. Of course they are critical to Israel, but has nothing to do with hating Jews and everything with the oppression of the palestinian people. Besides, how can a marxist be anti-semite, Marx was a Jew himself and i'm sure he would have condamned zionism. Noone on the left or even center-right in France is deniing the Holocaust.



"You and the French Right, you and the Arab propaganda, you and the extreme French Left are perfect together. Birds from the same nest. "

No, you are of the same nest of Hamas, Le Pen, and extremists. You all want to exterminate people from your country who belong to another race.

"As long you prevail, there will be no peace in the ME. "

This is exactly what i can say to you too

[takeo]

let me also recall you that Hitler in Mein Kampf said more than once that communism is a Jewish invention to destroy the civilised western world.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
let me also recall you that Hitler in Mein Kampf said more than once that communism is a Jewish invention to destroy the civilised western world.

If I understand this correctly, then Hitler must be, according the takeo, the ultimate authoritative source and his views must be adopted by everyone schnell.
:rolleyes:

[takeo]

no, but it means the left-wing can't possibly be anti-semitic and both Jews and communists are the worst ennemies of nazism. So never call me a nazi again.

[raven]

When the so called "Palistinians" were asked to show proof of their claims of who they say they are by their DNA and by any archeological "finds"-- all of a sudden, they have changed the name of their group. And the STORY has changed. They are not now Palistinians but are now --Cannonites. There was no such people as "Palistininians" as a distinct and indigious peoples, no language, no real history, nothin in the ground to back up their story. They are relative newcoming INVADERS from Greece and Crete origionally, to the area, and the whole of the Arab world agreed to that ..that is..until they decided to use the made up story as a device to TakeOver Israel. Read Joseph Farah in Sept or Oct of last year in World Net Daily. He is an Arab American and he can tell this "Alice in Wonderland" story of a so called "Indigious People" better than I can.

So can Joan Peters in her book "From Time Immemorial". She believed the made up story until she looked into it. This-- from a Pro Palistinian Pro State Department writer. In her book she PROVES that this whole Palistinian Claim is a full Fabrication.

Now, since they are unable to back up their phony claims with DNA proof, like all Jews can,(we just did) they have decided to call themselves "Cannonites". A Reality Flash: There are NO Cannonites left alive. There are also no Midianites, or Edomites, Ammorites, Hyksos, either. ALL those people died out, morphed and intermarried into other groups and are completely gone. All this Cannonite business amounts to a new "Palistinian" public relations offensive. Cannonite is a squishy term meant to be hard to prove or disprove, but sets a people in the area of Israel early and these people and their world wide supporters ( the ABJ's- Anybody but Jews) know they have to legitimize this muderous group in SOME WAY. Saying that they are Cannonites is the newest way since the "Palistinian" storyline is falling apart. This newist storyline wont wash either. DNA? There is no Cannonite DNA. In fact the DNA might just prove that these pretenders to someone elses land, first Saudi Arabia and Egypt, then Jordan, then Lebanon, and now Israel were NEVER a full cuture in any of the areas they claimed and claim and never origionated in the Middle East.... AT ALL.

This --"I am a Cannonite" business by the so called Palistinians will be "News" to some parts of the White Supremicist Movement. Some of those people also claim to be 'Cannonite'. They want Israel also. How interesting. Wonder how this will develop?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
no, but it means the left-wing can't possibly be anti-semitic and both Jews and communists are the worst ennemies of nazism. So never call me a nazi again.

I did not say you're a nazi. I said that you are repeating nazi and anti-semitic propaganda. I really have not characterized you at all, other than saying I disagree with your views. In general on this forum, people are not attacked, but their views can be challenged. If I see a personal attack, I will need to delete it, because personal attacks interfere with good debate.

Secondly, to say that the left-wing can't possibly be anti-semitic or anti-israel is of course not even remotely true.

There are plenty of left-wing and ultra liberals who justify Islamic terrorim through the misguided excuse of worrying about the Palestinian terrorists' human rights. They draw a moral equivalency between the Palestinian mass-murderers and their Israeli victims and put out this nonesense to an audience that doesn't know better.

There is also a camp of self-hating Jews who have been rejected (or who just perceive themselves as being rejected) by Jewish society and they then try to strike back by spreading disinformation against Israel and against their fellow Jews. A perfect example of this is Noam Chomsky, a vile and despicable self-hating Jew who has served the Arab terrorists and other anti-semitic causes quite well.

And finally, there are Jews and non-Jews who simply oppose Israeli policies for whatever reason. That's fine. No one has to tow the party line and people can think for themselves.

It's just my view that I can't imagine a person who finds excuses to justify the deliberate mass-murder of innocent people, unless that person has an agenda of some kind and is being disingenouos.

[takeo]

So raven, do you deny that the Palestinians lived as a majority in Israel:palestine untill 1948? This is far-reaching history falsification for political purposes, typical for totalitarian countries. Even most israeli historians recognise the palestinians (some call them just Arabs, but there is a distinction in culture) have lived in israel/palestine for many centuries.

newsguy, maybe you didn't call me a nazi, but some people on this board did and other personal insults too. You didn't remove their post.
And yes, of course many left-wing people are anti-israel but NOT anti-semite. (i explained over and over the obvious difference between the two)

"There are plenty of left-wing and ultra liberals who justify Islamic terrorim through the misguided excuse of worrying about the Palestinian terrorists' human rights. They draw a moral equivalency between the Palestinian mass-murderers and their Israeli victims and put out this nonesense to an audience that doesn't know better. "

There IS an equivalence between Palestinian terrorism on innocent civilians and freedom fighting against the occupiing force on the one side, and the israeli terror and occupation against the palestinians. People who live under opression and occupation, see their house destroyed for new Jewish settlements will resist, this is human and is something common in human history. People in france resisting against nazi-oppression(and collaboration) resisted by using force, sometimes the anger drive people so crazy that they murdered innocent German civilians (as Goldstein did as well, this is not something typical for Palestinians, or the frensh)

"There is also a camp of self-hating Jews who have been rejected (or who just perceive themselves as being rejected) by Jewish society and they then try to strike back by spreading disinformation against Israel and against their fellow Jews. A perfect example of this is Noam Chomsky, a vile and despicable self-hating Jew who has served the Arab terrorists and other anti-semitic causes quite well. "

Bullshit, Noam Chomsky hates Israel because he can't live with any oppression, not even when it is conducted by Jews.

"And finally, there are Jews and non-Jews who simply oppose Israeli policies for whatever reason. That's fine. No one has to tow the party line and people can think for themselves.
It's just my view I can't imagine a person who finds excuses to justify the deliberate mass-murder of innocent people, unless that person has an agenda of some kind and is being disingenouos."

that's right. There are no excuses for deliberate mass-murder on innocent civilians, as there are no excuses for occupiing land that doesn't belong to you and terrorise the population. Both are evil.
There are however more than enough legitimate reasons to fight against an occupiing army.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
let me also recall you that Hitler in Mein Kampf said more than once that communism is a Jewish invention to destroy the civilised western world.

Let me also recall that Marx said in effect that capitalism was a Jewish invention.

The ultra-right accuses Jews of having been born Jews.

The ultra-light accuses Jews of choosing to be Jews.

J.P. Sartre got at least this thing right.

I wonder, Monsieur Takeo, why you never commented on the Parteigenosse of yours - Roger Garaudy. Aren't you proud of the comrade?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
There IS an equivalence between Palestinian terrorism on innocent civilians and freedom fighting against the occupiing force on the one side, and the israeli terror and occupation against the palestinians.

First of all, I am not aware of Israeli terrorism against Palestinians. What I do know with certainty is that Israel instructs its soldiers to use utmost care to avoid civilian casualties at any cost, even when retaliating against the Arabs for the mass-murder of Jewish children.

To that end, Israel uses smart bombs and precision guidance to avoid civilian casualties.

It is undeniable that sometimes there is collateral damage and that Palestinian civilians are killed by accident or by weapons malfunction, but NEVER as a result of deliberate action.
That is what differentiates between Israel and the Palestinian murderers who need to be eliminated so that innocent civilians on both sides will be able to live in peace.

Now, on the other hand, Palestinians deliberately plant bombs in Israeli playgrounds to kill children. They deliberately shoot missiles into Israeli towns. The Arabs deliberately send suicide bombers to pizza stores, crowded shopping centers and bus stops. They deliberately open fire from machine guns in Israeli cities and border towns with the publicly-stated goal of murdering as many Israeli families as possible. This is their goal.

So please do not tell me about a moral equivalency between the Palestinian mass-murderers and their innocent victims. There is none and will never be such a similarity.

As for fighting against occupation, that is also nonesense. You cannot keep on calling Israel an occupier when the Palestinians govern their own cities, and there is a peace plan on the table for an independent Palestinian state. You refuse to see the facts as they exist for some reason.

[takeo]

"Let me also recall that Marx said in effect that capitalism was a Jewish invention.

The ultra-right accuses Jews of having been born Jews.

The ultra-light accuses Jews of choosing to be Jews.

J.P. Sartre got at least this thing right. "


Aid, I have never read anything of Mr. Garaudy so i can't commend on that.
what i know is that marx was a jew himself, and if he said the capitalism was invented by jews that maibe he had some reason to say that (were the first to work with interests, etc.) , it is no blaim, and the fact that he is a jew and the father of communists means that communism was also created by Jews. Besides, Sartre was even more critical to Israel than I am and he was in fact an anti-zionist. One can choose to be Jew, but not by oppressing or discriminating another people.

"First of all, I am not aware of Israeli terrorism against Palestinians. What I do know with certainty is that Israel instructs its soldiers to use utmost care to avoid civilian casualties at any cost, even when retaliating against the Arabs for the mass-murder of Jewish children. "

This is not true, the destruction of the houses in a refugee camp yesterday and the closure policy against Palestinian cities proove that, as well as the many casualties during the initial intifadeh in 1999, many of them armed with nothing else than stones. I'm still convinced that this many deaths escalated the whole thing.
Destroying any mean to moove freely, destroy people's houses, etc. is also reprisal against the civilian population. when i was in gaza i also saw peasants afraid of collecting the olive harvest because Israeli soldiers or settlers were shooting at them. They also deliberately destroyed many trees, by this way taking these people there only mean of income. All this happened deliberately. This is also a kind of terrorism, in fact the attacks on the PA are terrorist actions as well, as Israel also consideres palestinians actions againt Israeli security apparatus te be terrorist attacks. Some jewish settlers went further and really murdered at random palestinians the same way Hamas is doing.



"Now, on the other hand, Palestinians deliberately plant bombs in Israeli playgrounds to kill children. They deliberately shoot missiles into Israeli towns. The Arabs deliberately send suicide bombers to pizza stores, crowded shopping centers and bus stops. They deliberately open fire from machine guns in Israeli cities and border towns with the publicly-stated goal of murdering as many Israeli families as possible. This is their goal. "

This is not "the Palestinian" goal, this is the goal of Hamas or Jihad. Nor the PLF nor Al Fatah have ever committed such acts. However mostly those machine guns are aimed at Israeli military posts or settlements(most settlers are armed and deliberately choose to live on stolen land because they consider it theirs, they are the most fanatic part of Israeli society, and believe me i have visited some, as i was Jew they didn't had any suspition and told me how they thought, i was too afraid to say my opinion, i could just imagine they would immidiately lynch me. They choose to live in dangerous area, only very bad to bring their children, who are innocent, in such a bad position).

"So please do not tell me about a moral equivalency between the Palestinian mass-murderers and their innocent victims. There is none and will never be such a similarity. "

There is no moral similarity because one of the two sides is much stronger than the other and has the keys to stop the war any moment.

"As for fighting against occupation, that is also nonesense. You cannot keep on calling Israel an occupier when the Palestinians govern their own cities, and there is a peace plan on the table for an independent Palestinian state. You refuse to see the facts as they exist for some reason. "

Large parts are still occupied, and the palestinians can't moove freely in their own country, not even their president. Any plan should meet the standard of the UN-resolutions.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
Al Fatah just want Israel to respect the UN-resolutions. Nothing extreme about that. Israel on the other hand thinks it has the right to ignore them (seems more extremist to me).

Again, Monsiuer Takeo, how on earth would you know the real strategic plans of Al-Fatah? Unless you are their Politburo member, that is. In which case you will know, and I hope you will issue a wrtten guarantee to that effect.

The Arabs including those who lived in Palestine at the time, rejected the UN resolution creating the State of Israel. Seems very extremist to me (but seemingly OK to you). They did not respect the mother of all resolutions, so why should Israel respect such UN resolutions as "Zionism = Racism", passed by an alliance of Arabs and Communists.

In your other messages you continue in effect to deny Israel's legitimacy. You wrote that you were in favor of Israel continued existence simply because it already exists and citizens of the State have no place to go. It follows that if there were a place for them to go, you'd be in favor of destroying the State of Israel.


Originally posted by takeo
Yes, the right (of return) is included in the UN-resolutions as well and recognised as legitimate by Israel's leader on the condition that a peace-treaty with israel's neighbours will be concluded. A lot of peace-treaties yet (and more to come if Israel would give back the Holan-heights), but not yet right of return.
This is not undermining or denying the right of existance of Israel. in France and germany every citizen born in that country and living there for decades and his family are wellcome to come back, whatever etnicity they have. this is so because they signed the Geneva-conventions, which every civilised state in the world has done.

Where is the peace treaty you are talking about? All I see is war.
Peace with Egypt or Jordan has nothing to do with this. There has to be a peace treaty to settle the borders between Israel and the future Pali state and population movements if any. Please quote to me the Geneva conventions that would compel Israel to accept the immigration of people who were born outside the country in several generations? What kind of an invention is it? I don't know about the French immigration policies, but German policy is admitting only the people of "German culture" as citizens. Thus, ethnic Germans born in Russia can immigrate to Germany, but ethnic Russians can't. Why such injustice?

You should interiorize it, Monsiuer Takeo, that it is the sovereign right of every state to set its immigration policies. How difficult a concept is this to comprehend?



Originally posted by takeo
they have lived for centuries is extremism and etnic cleansing, and it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of israel to exist. It doesn't mean that because Israel has the right to exist that it can expell citizens who aren't jewish.


This is of course nonsense. More than ten million of Germans were expelled from East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudetenland, and last time I checked they were not packing to return to Russia, Poland or Czech Republic. Note that their expulsion occurred in 1945-1946, i.e. at approximately the same time as Arabs were urged to flee Palestine by their leadership (some were expelled by the IDF for security reasons in wartime.
Note that this was wartime as opposed to peace in 1945-1946.

Israel does not expell non-Jews, this is another of your inventions.

I can't belive you use Google. If you used it, you would find references to unprecedented in history PLO/Fatah terrorism: Munich, Ma'alot, Entebbe, Achilles Lauro, numerous hijackings of airplanes, etc. But since you are using a serach engine developed by the Sudanese Academy of Sciences, you can't find any of that.

I am amazed to meet a live Communist. I thought they did not exist any more. It's like seeing a dinosaur. For some reason, you no one will admit to being a Nazi, but feel no shame in being a Commie. I don't know why, because Commies have been every bit as rabid as Nazis, and they have killed many more times people than the Nazis have. The number of Stalinist victims of terror is estimated to be 30 million. And then you have the countless tens of millions killed by Mao, Ho, Pol Pot, Castro, Tito, Hoenicker, Ceausescu, etc. So I congratulate you with being a Communist, Monsieur comrade. The French Communist Party has always been the most Stalinist and pro-Soviet of all Western parties. Most Soviet members of the party were there because of necessity. You are there by choice. This is totally amazing. Talking to you is like talking to Kaganovich or Himmler.

It is puzzling how come you know nothing about your Parteigenosse Communist Garaudy, and his notorious Holocaust denial. It is puzzling you know nothing about the anti-Semitism of the CPSU and RCP. One of their leaders - Anpilov - is an especially notorious anti-Semite. The party leader Zyuganov is a certified anti-Semite, too. In the USSR, the Comparty was the source of anti-Semitism. In Russia, the RCP and the so-called Fascist-Communist "National Bolsheviks" are allies.

And needless to say the Red-Brown coalition is anti-Zionist, as is the radical left and radical right everywhere. But if we have survived Hitler, Stalin and Nasser, we will survive you, comrade Monsiuer.



:D

[takeo]

"Again, Monsiuer Takeo, how on earth would you know the real strategic plans of Al-Fatah? Unless you are their Politburo member, that is. In which case you will know, and I hope you will issue a wrtten guarantee to that effect. "

i know what Al-Fatah stated in public and to their own population and what they declared several times in public and on paper. this is more than Israel ever did in recognising a palestinian state or stop building new settlements.

"The Arabs including those who lived in Palestine at the time, rejected the UN resolution creating the State of Israel. Seems very extremist to me (but seemingly OK to you). They did not respect the mother of all resolutions, so why should Israel respect such UN resolutions as "Zionism = Racism", passed by an alliance of Arabs and Communists. "

They didn't accept this at that time, right, but now they do and israel still doesn't. If the UN is illegitimate in your eyes because they dare to condamn Israel for its racist policy, than of course the UN-resolution recognising Israel isn't legitimate as well. Yes, in the UN only Arabs and communists are represented. no Africans, Latin-Americans, no Asians, no Europeans... in fact the whole world is anti-semite.

"In your other messages you continue in effect to deny Israel's legitimacy. You wrote that you were in favor of Israel continued existence simply because it already exists and citizens of the State have no place to go. It follows that if there were a place for them to go, you'd be in favor of destroying the State of Israel. "

Yes, that is right, but because these people have established their lifes in israel one has to recognise israel, even if the zionist idea was a fascist idea. They can't be forced to move now, they live there and are not guilty of the policy of their leaders.


"Where is the peace treaty you are talking about? All I see is war.
Peace with Egypt or Jordan has nothing to do with this. There has to be a peace treaty to settle the borders between Israel and the future Pali state and population movements if any. "

There isn't a Palestinian state because Israel doesn't want one (that is truly independant and has the rights of all independant states). but they were talking at that time about peace with egypt, jordan and syria. two of these countries have signed a peace-treaty, Syria doesn't only because of the Golan heights.


"Please quote to me the Geneva conventions that would compel Israel to accept the immigration of people who were born outside the country in several generations? What kind of an invention is it? I don't know about the French immigration policies, but German policy is admitting only the people of "German culture" as citizens. Thus, ethnic Germans born in Russia can immigrate to Germany, but ethnic Russians can't. Why such injustice?

You should interiorize it, Monsiuer Takeo, that it is the sovereign right of every state to set its immigration policies. How difficult a concept is this to comprehend? "

This is not about immigration, dear sir. This is about the right to return to ones OWN country. Suddenly Germany is your great example? Even in Germany people belong to the etnic Slavic minority(and others as well) have the right to return to the country they lived in for centuries, even if they have left the country 50 years ago. they are still German citizens, so is their family. This is literally sited in the Geneva-conventions.
I don't know them by heart ever one of them, but you can go to this site (i think it was also in my other post on another treat) and they explain exactly which Geneva-conventions Israel violated and why, very clearly. they also quote a lot of israeli politicians in power. Their site is called "jews for justice in the mddle East" and they are partly based in Israel.
http://www.cactus48.com/statehood.html
By the way, the expulsion of German citizens from Poland and czech republic was illegal as well and has been condamned by "the free Western world" as another crime of communism. It was also against the un-declarations and Geneva-conventions. The question is still being discussed about between Germany and Czech republic and Poland. i don't agree with this "stalinist" decision. (I don't agree by the way with every decision a communist ever made) . Israel did expell some Palestinians (this is even recognised by the pro-Israel jewish library on the web) by force and others did flee because of the war and other reasons. But not allowing them to come back after the war doesn't make any difference with expelling for the Geneva-conventions. It is both etnic cleansing. One can not refuse its citizens to come back to their country.







"I can't belive you use Google. If you used it, you would find references to unprecedented in history PLO/Fatah terrorism: Munich, Ma'alot, Entebbe, Achilles Lauro, numerous hijackings of airplanes, etc. But since you are using a serach engine developed by the Sudanese Academy of Sciences, you can't find any of that. "

I know all of that and read it, I found also a lot of pro-arab sites by the way. (so i guess google isn't good enough for you, maibe in Israel they have some search machine with only zionist propaganda on it)

"I am amazed to meet a live Communist. I thought they did not exist any more. It's like seeing a dinosaur. For some reason, you no one will admit to being a Nazi, but feel no shame in being a Commie. I don't know why, because Commies have been every bit as rabid as Nazis, and they have killed many more times people than the Nazis have. The number of Stalinist victims of terror is estimated to be 30 million. And then you have the countless tens of millions killed by Mao, Ho, Pol Pot, Castro, Tito, Hoenicker, Ceausescu, etc. So I congratulate you with being a Communist, Monsieur comrade. The French Communist Party has always been the most Stalinist and pro-Soviet of all Western parties. Most Soviet members of the party were there because of necessity. You are there by choice. This is totally amazing. Talking to you is like talking to Kaganovich or Himmler. "

blablabla. This is not a discussion for this forum.(by the way amazing to hear a Jew say that Stalin was worse than Hitler, without Stalin there wouldn't be any more Jews and most of the Russians "killed by stalin" in reality died in second WW, more or less 30 million, without the Jewish victims. after the war Stalin decided to make some concentration camps in Poland for the real nazi's and give the management to Jews, i can assure you some real human rights were abused there, but for one time i don't really care about that . Anyway, i don't agree with human rights abuses and even crimes that happened in the Stalin period, and most communists are highly critical towards that. but you can't compare it to nazi crimes or even to American crimes in Vietnam for example. Of course noone likes Pol Pot, who was a real war-criminal and has been removed from power by communist Vietnam, The US and friends, including israel, condamned that invasion even if vietnamese troops left Cambodia soon after )
I can only tell you that my russian friends went to Israel only because the collapse of communism was for them a catastrophy in economic terms. By the way, the French Communist Party is very moderate and is an active member of the government, i heard nobody call the French government extremist, except of course Israel. I think Sharon defenders have by the way no right to condamn crimes against humanity.

"It is puzzling how come you know nothing about your Parteigenosse Communist Garaudy, and his notorious Holocaust denial. It is puzzling you know nothing about the anti-Semitism of the CPSU and RCP. One of their leaders - Anpilov - is an especially notorious anti-Semite. The party leader Zyuganov is a certified anti-Semite, too. In the USSR, the Comparty was the source of anti-Semitism. In Russia, the RCP and the so-called Fascist-Communist "National Bolsheviks" are allies. "

Yes I know him, but didn't read anything he wrote, if he really was a holocaust-denier or even just a little bit i'm sure he would have lost his membership immidiately. But you made me curious, i'm going to read it.
There was some anti-semitism in the Russian and soviet communist party as everywhere in Russian society, but there were also a lot of Jews who were prominent member of it and Hitler called the Soviet party ruled by Jews (which was partly true). Victor anpilov isn't an anti-semite and isn't part of the main communist party of russia (one of the little more radical ones). Zyuganov isn't an anti-semite either, and there are Jews member of the CPRF. One member of CPRF has made anti-semitic remarks and has been criticised by the other members. The other parties in Russia are a lot more anti-semitic. I never heard of "National Bolsheviks" and i know that Zirinovsky cooperates more with putin than with the communists.



:rolleyes:

[aid]

Monsieur Comrade Takeo,

Are you serious lecturing me on what Communist anti-Semitism was? I experienced it on my own skin, Comrade.

And you are not as naive as it might seem to be. You know about Comrades Anpilov, Zyuganov, CPRF, "Pravda", etc.

Here is a quote from a Communist source:


. The CPRF has always tolerated national chauvinism in general, and anti-Semitism in particular, in its ranks. But this reached new heights when CPRF Duma deputy General Albert Makashov declared in his October 1998 article "Usurers of Russia" that the "yid" had taken over Russia to "drink the blood of the indigenous peoples [i.e., Russians -- Mark] of the state" and this was the reason for "usury, deceit, corruption and thievery" "flourishing in the country." Now if there CPRF had any concern for class solidarity or a real interest in pointing out the real causes of the crisis, they would not even allow the likes of Makashov in their party. But the CPRF, which is the dominant party in the Duma, resolutely opposed even a measure of censure against Makashov. Then, CPRF leader Zyuganov embarked on a campaign to apologize for Makashov.

http://www.flash.net/~comvoice/20cRussia.html

Also read this, By YEVGENI PROSHECHKIN Chairman, Moscow Antifascism Center:

http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol9/Proshechkin.html

There is no difference beteen Communists and Fascists anymore, if ever there was one.

I could give you many more, but when you talk to a real Commie it is useless. You only see their stonewalling. It is the same story with all the true believers in in totalitarian ideologies and violence.

As for Zhirinovsky, he is simply a clown, with no following left in Russia. He is a creature of the Soviet KGB under Gorbachev: the KGB prepared Zhirinovsky for the role of the fake opposition party in the USSR.

Now, regarding Stalin's crimes. I was not saying that he was worse for Jews than Hitler. He did not have that chance - God took him before he could do it. In 1953 Stalin was ready for the mass deportation of Jews to Siberia, where most of them would have been died. The trains were already prepared.

But even without it, Stalin killed Judaism. There were just a couple of synagogues left standing. Hitler killed the Jews individually, Stalin killed the Jewish nation.

But what I really was referring to were ALL victims of Stalinism, not only Jewish.

And here is some statistics:



Peasant dead: 1930-37 11,000,000
Arrested in this period dying in camps later 3,500,000
Total 14,500,000
Of these:
Dead as a result of dekulakization 6,500,000
Dead in the Kazakh catastrophe 1,000,000
Dead in the 1932-33 famine: 7,000,000


http://web.qx.net/jon/stalin.html

These are only the victims of collectivization. This is before the Great Purges and other Communist crimes.


It goes without saying that Communist regimes have killed and imprisoned many times more people than all the Fascist regimes ever could.

Today, the remnants of Fascism and Commiunism have practically merged, especially in realtion to Israel.

I don't have time to refute all your statements. I asked you to provide a link to the Geneva conventions regarding refugeees you are claiming Israel is not adhereing to, and you give me a primitive propaganda website instead. You have no idea what primary sources are.

You have admitted again that you are denying Israel's legitimacy and accepting it only as a fact (because where do you put the people who live there?), despite all the resolutions of the League of Nations and UN declaring Palestine to be the national home of the Jewish people and creating the State of Israel. If you find where to put the people (Antarctica?), you would destroy Israel. This is what I call Fascism in its pure form.

You are studiously ignoring all al-Fateh terrorism, past and present, ridiculously relaying on their propaganda statements to "prove" that they have abandoned violence and their goal of destruction of Israel. That's not surprizing: your goals as a Commie and Arab Fascist goals are identical.



:D

[takeo]

it was not a primitive propaganda-sources (less primitive than the propaganda-links you gave me) and they clearly stated on what parts of the Geneva-conventions Israel offended, and why (citing the geneva-conventions Israel offended, which were by the way never signed by israel, for some reason).
Yesi know a lot about Russia as my family is originally from Russia.
This was the person i was referring to (forgot his name), he made indeed anti-semitic remarks but had been criticised for that. Anti-semitism is on the rise in Russia because of those super-corrupted "tycoons" who are by coincidence mostly Jewish(but Russians as well, which the Russian public tend to forget).
I can only assure that such remarks would not have been tolerated in the PCF.


"I could give you many more, but when you talk to a real Commie it is useless. You only see their stonewalling. It is the same story with all the true believers in in totalitarian ideologies and violence. "

I could give you many more, but when you talk to a real zionist it is useless. You only see their stonewalling. It is the same story with all the true believers in etnic-centered ideologies and violence. Zionism and fascism have the same nationalist roots.

"Now, regarding Stalin's crimes. I was not saying that he was worse for Jews than Hitler. He did not have that chance - God took him before he could do it. In 1953 Stalin was ready for the mass deportation of Jews to Siberia, where most of them would have been died. The trains were already prepared. "

Where did you read this, another biased story by Daniel Pipes (love that guy) or David Horowitz? it seems most of your "facts" originated in their brains (or in the brains of the propaganda-machine of course, of which they are a part).

"But even without it, Stalin killed Judaism. There were just a couple of synagogues left standing. Hitler killed the Jews individually, Stalin killed the Jewish nation. "

No, he did the same to all religions. in fact since the october-revolutions the persecution of Jews stopped, you can check this in the Jewish library on the net (a pro-israeli website by the way). But if you mean that he "killed" Jewish nationalism than i'm glad he did so.
All the facts about the "stalinist crimes" are biased and there has never been a serious independant investigation to this. i don't say there weren't such crimes(mostly high-ranking communist party members), but claims of millions of deaths are ridiculous and impossible if you see the demography. Can you give me one unbiased historical research about those facts (can perfectly be traced, there is an extensive Kremlin and communist party archive)? Unlike the Israeli crimes, which happened before the eye of the camera in most cases, Stalin-crimes have never been reseached, only speculated by ennemies. For example during the collectivisation in those years in ukrain only the farms of 2 million people have been collectivised, so how could 7 million have died?
but anyway, this has nothing to do with Israel. By the way, the Soviet-Union was one of the first countries to recognise Israel...



"It goes without saying that Communist regimes have killed and imprisoned many times more people than all the Fascist regimes ever could.
Today, the remnants of Fascism and Commiunism have practically merged, especially in realtion to Israel."

blabla, any facts, please????????????
The fact is that European fascists support Israel and communists don't .


"You have admitted again that you are denying Israel's legitimacy and accepting it only as a fact (because where do you put the people who live there?), despite all the resolutions of the League of Nations and UN declaring Palestine to be the national home of the Jewish people and creating the State of Israel. If you find where to put the people (Antarctica?), you would destroy Israel. This is what I call Fascism in its pure form. "

You think Israel has the right to refuse Israel to the Palestinian original inhabitants and has the right to extend its territory, in spite of the UN-resolutions. That's what i call fascism.
the UN declared that the current territory of Israel was a home of the jews but not ONLY of the Jews. I still think zionism was a fascist and nationalist idea, based on "one people-one country". but now it can't be changed anymore, not even if new land is found where nobody lives.



"You are studiously ignoring all al-Fateh terrorism, past and present, ridiculously relaying on their propaganda statements to "prove" that they have abandoned violence and their goal of destruction of Israel. That's not surprizing: your goals as a Commie and Arab Fascist goals are identical. "

The moderate Arab goals and communist goals concerning Israel are indeed identical: accepting Israel on the condition that it complies to ALL uN-resolutions (one can not just take one that you like and ignore the other one) . There is nothing fascist about fighting for the freedom of its own people against a country that considers them to be "inferior", in fact, this is pure anti-fascism.
You are ignoring all the war-crimes committed by the zionist leaders, past and present, ridiculously relaying on their propaganda statements to "prove" that Israel has the right to occupy other countries, refuse original inhabitants to return to their homes and commit violence.
goals of all nationalistic and religious extremists are identical: destroy the other etnic group because you think your people has the right to take this land entirely to you.

[takeo]

By the way, i'm curious, when did you leave Russia and how did you feel anti-semitism?
I believe that many people who criticized the Soviet-union because of human rights issues in the 80's are now supporting regimes that have a much worse human rights-record, Sharansky is a good example. (sholsenitsin is another one, but he isn't a Jew and is not a supporter of Israel)
by the way, with your logic Russia should be anti-semitic, because russia is home of the Russians and the Jews are just squatters ( not my words, the words of newsguy) . Fortunately most Russians are more open-minded than you, Russians and Jews (which are in fact Russians from Jewish origin) alike.
both russian anti-semitism and chauvinism and zionism want etnic separation, they are allies. (and unfortunately they succeeded)

[aid]

I left Russia because of the so-called Communists - in reality regular thugs: banditen un ganovim.

As all bandits, Fascist, Islamist or Communist (they have all merged more or less today), they were anti-Semitic. They were strangling every thinking person of course, but they reserved special hatred for Jews.

They (and especially Stalin of course) were against all religions, but at the same time they were playing with the Russian Orthodox Church. They needed it. They owned it. THey made all the appointments in the church hierarchy. The Church was controlled by the KGB. However, there were churches for people to go, there were bishops, priests, there was the Patriarch of all Russia, and there were the seminaries.

But when it came to Judaism, they demolished everything: I believe only two, maybe three synagogues in the whole country (one sixth of the landmass) remained standing - in Moscow and Leningrad. There was no school to prepare rabbis. There were no shoichets, no matso - nothing. In my native city - Smolensk - there once was a beautiful synagogue. They made it a party school. My father and uncle had to sneak like thieves into a shtube for a high holiday and shake there for fear to be "uncovered".

Takeo writes how is happy "Jewish nationalism" was destroyed. Yes, it was, but Russian nationalism became the party policy. Communism and Great-Russian chauvinism merged (just like Communism and Islamism today), and Soviet Communism became little more than an expression of Russian nationalism.

So, this is it: Nazis deny Nazi crimes. Communists (who you would think should be shamed off the face of the earth) are denying Communist, even Stalinist and Maoist crimes.

Nazis deny the Holocaust, Communists deny the mass killings of socially unsuitable elements on a grandiose scale. This is happening right here, on this very board.

Truly these people have no shame. Truly their audacity is breathtaking. They are an insult to the memory of the millions mercilessly killed.

:)

[takeo]

"So, this is it: Nazis deny Nazi crimes. Communists (who you would think should be shamed off the face of the earth) are denying Communist crimes." (ps, i'm not denying, just put things in their right perspective and try for once to bring in some actual facts in the discussion in stead of ideology)

One more to add: Zionists are denying zionist crimes during the past 5 decades.

Nazis deny the Holocaust, Communists deny the mass killings of socially unsuitable elements. Zionists are denying war-crimes and defend war-criminals. This is happening right here, on this very board. (yes, indeed, constantly)

Truly these people have no shame. Truly their audacity is breathtaking.

and your claim that todat in russia communists and arabists are identical brings all the rest you said in doubt. as you might know the CPRF (by the way a very moderate communist party, that wants to look at China for an economic model instead of the catastrophically economic decline the new leaders have put Russia) is one of the most anti-Chechen parties in Russia. this is not because of nationalism but to preserve the national borders of russia. On the contrary to the Palestinians the Chechens had equal rights as the Russians and their own almost autonomous republic were the Russian minority was ruled by Chechens, not vice versa. chechenia is also by the whole world recognised as a part of Russia. They have been etnic cleansed by stalin but Kroutchev undid that etnic cleansing(so don't start to make comparitions with the Palestinians, there are none. the CPRF calls for a stronger stand against Islamic extremism but at the same time condamns western and israeli crimes against islamic people.
And only when i went to kharkov in 1988 as a child i visited two Synagogues and again 1 in Sverdlovsk. They were still funtioning as synagogues. So it is clear you are a lier or ignorant or too much biased against communism to see the facts.
OK, i heard life under communism was not totall freedom and yes it was not possible to have dissent political opinion. But people lived a lot better than they do now, in Russia but for sure even worse today in the islamic republics.
Stalin nor the CPRF were or are Russian nationalists or anti-semites. many Jews were and are still in the party and don't forget that stalin wasn't a russian himself, he was georgian, Khroutchov and breznyev were ukrainians. So a Russian nationalist regime that transform its state into a loose federation and let non-russians govern the country? I don't think so! Israel on the contrary, and jewish nationalism in general, very nationalistc, truly believe jew people are superior to other people and have special rights. We can all see the consequences of this policy in Israel, but as well in other countries were anti-communist nationalists rose to power after 1989 (armenia, azerbaidjan, Georgia, Moldova, tadjikistan (there it is still communists against islamists), tchechenia, Bosnia, croatia, Serbia, Macedonia... all these countries have their fanatic exclusive nationalism (or religious intolerance, if you see how people on this board talk about Islam) in common with Israel.
Yes, stalin used the Russian orthodox church and the positions were appointed by the system, but this was true as well for islam and judaism. only some sects were really banned in communist Russia (witnesses of yehova, etc. ).

[takeo]

Zionism as perceived by Herzl was left-wing in orientation, not religious and considered Uganda instead of Palestine as the place to be. He also said that colonising Jews should take land that was not inhabited and not harm the original population. the creation of Zionism was in a time of anti-semitic persecution in Eastern Europe.
Later on zionism in Palestine became more radical (partly because of Palestinian hostility) and hostile to the original inhabitants and later on as well against against the occupiing nation (GB) because it wanted to limit further Jewish colonisation in areas that were inhabited by Palestinians. the Jewish organisation conducted terrorist acts against brittish and Palestinian targets. But zionism was still leftist, a strange combination between left-wing ideals (collectivism, trade union, etc.) and fanatic nationalism excluding Palestinians.
More later on likud was created, the most degenerated form of zionism, that only remained ultra-nationalistic but left its left-wing ideals. this is the history of degeneration of zionism, with as a sad conclusion Sharon as president of Israel.

[takeo]

sorry, prime minister

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
... But zionism was still leftist, a strange combination between left-wing ideals (collectivism, trade union, etc.) and fanatic nationalism excluding Palestinians.

Again, sorry to intervene with actual facts, but I just thought I'd mention that there are currently 1.5 million Arabs living large in Israel, enjoying a standard of living that is unmatched by any of their third-world brethren, with entitlement to Israeli government subsidies for higher education, municipal services, total religious freedom, and having equal access to Israeli democracy, including having their elected Arab officials in the Knesset. All this courtesy of the democratic Israeli taxpayer.

So your statement about "excluding Palestinians" is totally false, of course. Nice try...;)

[takeo]

Please don't try to fool me, i've been to Israel and talked to dozens of "arab Israeli citizens". Equal rights are only on paper, nobody treats them as equal! And their living standard is a lot lower than most jewish israeli and than in for example Saoudi Arabia or Libia. Besides they are just a tiny minority of the people who lived in what was going to be Israel before 1948. Most people fled and were not able to return. besides the comments only on this board already show that they are not wanted and despised.

[aid]

Takeo, Takeo,

All you can do is to parrot me.

You can't come up with one original thought. Well, what would you expect from Commies today - you are truly scraping the bottom of the pit.

The point was that Russian (and other) Communists and Arabists and Islamists are the same when it comes to Israel and to Jews at large. I see no difference. I know what Russian Commies-Judophobes are thinking and I can read what you are writing here. More than that, it is as hard now to find an awowed Commie anyplace else as it was after WWII for the Allies to find Nazis to bring to court.

Russia is today certainly better off than under Communism. No one but a few incorrigibles would wantto go back. But the main thing is the hope, openess - I meet Russians everywhere in the world today - the hope for better life.

The Russian red-brown scum including the CPRF somehow manage to be the most anti-Chechen and anti-Semitic. They are also anti-Arab racists, but their main stand is anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, just like yours.


And only when i went to kharkov in 1988 as a child i visited two Synagogues and again 1 in Sverdlovsk. They were still funtioning as synagogues. So it is clear you are a lier or ignorant or too much biased against communism to see the facts.

Lies?

That was in 1988, under Gorbachev, when the USSR was expiring. It had three years left to live. At that point, yes, some synagogues were restored. But under the regime of Brezhnev, a synagogue was treated as a CIA office.



Stalin nor the CPRF were or are Russian nationalists or anti-semites. many Jews were and are still in the party and don't forget that stalin wasn't a russian himself, he was georgian, Khroutchov and breznyev were ukrainians

You are simply ignorant. Yes, this is exactly what they were and still are. It was nearly impossible to a Jew to join the party under Brezhnev. The Central Committee of the party had only one Jew - from Birobijan. Stalin was the chief Russian nationalist, never mind his Georgian origins. This is a well-known pattern: Hitler was not German, but Austrian and Napoleon was not French but Italian. Khruschev and Brezhnev were Russian, and no one but Russian could be the General Secretary, after the Stalin and Beria fiascos.

Oy, Takeo, I know how it is difficult for a Communist to admit to the truth (if you did, you'd commit a suicide), but please don't lecture me on Russia at least.

Do you speak Russian by the way?

[raven]

To TakeO: (which you will --NOT--not in Israel and not in the World) Lots of people LIVE in countries which they have not founded and are relative "newcommers". That doesnt mean they get to TAKEOVER parts of the country that they just live in and carve out another country all their own. (Much as Islam is trying to do in India, in the Pillipines, in Africa, in Israel, in China, in Eastern Europe and on and on)

Until the late 50's the Arab World called these so called Palistinians "imposters". Because that is what they are! They come from Greece and Crete origionally, came to the area in waves after each incident or natural disaster happened their own area, tried to takeover one country after another, FAILED, and blended into the Arab Population. They NEVER, ever. established other then what is called ---Settlements. These Settlements never developed into any kind of full distinct country, no distinct language, no distinct culture. A full Sham. This "Palistianian" business is merely a new device to use to get rid of Israel.

Since DNA testing and advances in Carbon and other Archeological Dating, this supposed new catagory "Palistinian" has been discredited and now they are now having to switch to calling themselves, "Cannonites". They hope that will be so hard to prove or disprove that the rest of the antisemetic world can glom on to THIS new definition as an excuse to give this phony group a piece of land that they never founded, are new to, and are not entitled to. Certainly when they tried to take over Arab lands, the Arabs didnt allow it (Egypt, Jordan, Labanon) and we wont either.

No never mind to YOU that a group just migrating lately( in the Middle East a couple hundred years qualifies as "newcommers") to a several thousand year old established Country, with people that can prove their claim to the land, in many scientific ways --gets to slice off a piece of that country.

Well, if it can happen to us, then it can happen to you in FRANCE, in the rest of Europe AND in the US of A. Everyone is watching to see how this is done.

Actually, when you think about it, Jews have been in the US BEFORE the Mayflower people. Way --way before. Oh, yes we have, in case you didnt know. Therefore using the Palistinian Template of claims ownership of a piece of land, do you think Jews can claim a separate country of our own within the US? We also were in Medina way before the Moslems came down there. Do you think we can claim parts of Medina? Maybe so. All this can be done if Palistinians can claim parts of Israel and are successful with that claim.

While we are at it. Have to see how long Jews have been in residence in France, England, Germay, Italy, SPAIN in particular-- etc. Maybe we can claim parts of those countries for our own also. Couple hundred years of residency in a specific country and WAH..LAA...you get your own country-- within that particular Country. Sounds good to me. Who said Jews should have only ONE country? Christians have many countries to call their own --as do Moslems -- Jews should also.

What works for one-- should work for all. No double standards. Lets see where the Palistinian "Ownership of Land" Template leads.

[takeo]

I parrot you to show that your words can at occastions easily used against you.

"The point was that Russian (and other) Communists and Arabists and Islamists are the same when it comes to Israel and to Jews at large. I see no difference. I know what Russian Commies-Judophobes are thinking and I can read what you are writing here. More than that, it is as hard now to find an awowed Commie anyplace else as it was after WWII for the Allies to find Nazis to bring to court. "

More than of world population are still communist.
There is a big difference, communists are against Israel for their occupation policy, russian nationalists because it is Jewish.

"Russia is today certainly better off than under Communism. No one but a few incorrigibles would wantto go back. But the main thing is the hope, openess - I meet Russians everywhere in the world today - the hope for better life. "


Did you ever visit Russia after 1991? I think not. A latest poll by a right-wing russian newspaper (Izvestia, in the hands of a tycoon) shows that 65% of Russians thought the life was the best during breznyev and stalin-years. Among elderly this was 90%. only 15% thought that their life improved after 1990. If you visit Russia you will soon notice WHY.

"The Russian red-brown scum including the CPRF somehow manage to be the most anti-Chechen and anti-Semitic. They are also anti-Arab racists, but their main stand is anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, just like yours. "

Bullshit, anti-zionism is hardly a theme anymore in russian politics, certainly not in the CPRF. They are not anti-Arab racists, and not even anti-chechens (by the way chechens are no arabs), they are just against people wishing to take parts of Russia, separatists. They are however anti-american and anti-NATO, that's a much more important theme.




"That was in 1988, under Gorbachev, when the USSR was expiring. It had three years left to live. At that point, yes, some synagogues were restored. But under the regime of Brezhnev, a synagogue was treated as a CIA office. "

in 1988 nothing had changed so much, and i can't imagine all these synagogues were just newly opened.




"You are simply ignorant. Yes, this is exactly what they were and still are. It was nearly impossible to a Jew to join the party under Brezhnev. The Central Committee of the party had only one Jew - from Birobijan. Stalin was the chief Russian nationalist, never mind his Georgian origins. This is a well-known pattern: Hitler was not German, but Austrian and Napoleon was not French but Italian. Khruschev and Brezhnev were Russian, and no one but Russian could be the General Secretary, after the Stalin and Beria fiascos. "

There were a lot of Jews in the heighest positions in the Soviet-union. If there was only one Jew in the Central committee than it is because Jews only represented 5 % of Soviet-population, or even less. Stalin was Georgian and was the architect of the Soviet federation, the federalisation of Russia.
Austrians and germans are the same breath, they are both etnic germans and speak german. napoleon by the way was corsican, a part of France.
Khruschev and Brezhnev were both Ukrainians.



"Do you speak Russian by the way?"

ya gavariou nimnogo paruski.



raven:
"(which you will --NOT--not in Israel and not in the World) Lots of people LIVE in countries which they have not founded and are relative "newcommers". That doesnt mean they get to TAKEOVER parts of the country that they just live in and carve out another country all their own. (Much as Islam is trying to do in India, in the Pillipines, in Africa, in Israel, in China, in Eastern Europe and on and on) "
well, that's however exactly what Jews did in Palestine, wich of course explains the hatred against the newcomers.

"Until the late 50's the Arab World called these so called Palistinians "imposters". Because that is what they are! They come from Greece and Crete origionally, came to the area in waves after each incident or natural disaster happened their own area, tried to takeover one country after another, FAILED, and blended into the Arab Population. They NEVER, ever. established other then what is called ---Settlements. These Settlements never developed into any kind of full distinct country, no distinct language, no distinct culture. A full Sham. This "Palistianian" business is merely a new device to use to get rid of Israel.
Since DNA testing and advances in Carbon and other Archeological Dating, this supposed new catagory "Palistinian" has been discredited and now they are now having to switch to calling themselves, "Cannonites". They hope that will be so hard to prove or disprove that the rest of the antisemetic world can glom on to THIS new definition as an excuse to give this phony group a piece of land that they never founded, are new to, and are not entitled to. Certainly when they tried to take over Arab lands, the Arabs didnt allow it (Egypt, Jordan, Labanon) and we wont either. "

where did you find this **** theory? Do you have one historic research, one historic work to proove your "theory"? Or is it just another scam theory to legitimise Israeli occupation and presence.
Almost all historians recognised that palestinians lived in palestine for more than 2000 years, even most Israeli ones.

"No never mind to YOU that a group just migrating lately( in the Middle East a couple hundred years qualifies as "newcommers") to a several thousand year old established Country, with people that can prove their claim to the land, in many scientific ways --gets to slice off a piece of that country. "

nobody can claim a land they left 1000's of years ago, and even if they continued there living as a minority, than this minority has the right to continue living there, but can not claim the whole country for itself.

"Well, if it can happen to us, then it can happen to you in FRANCE, in the rest of Europe AND in the US of A. Everyone is watching to see how this is done.
Actually, when you think about it, Jews have been in the US BEFORE the Mayflower people. Way --way before. Oh, yes we have, in case you didnt know. Therefore using the Palistinian Template of claims ownership of a piece of land, do you think Jews can claim a separate country of our own within the US? We also were in Medina way before the Moslems came down there. Do you think we can claim parts of Medina? Maybe so. All this can be done if Palistinians can claim parts of Israel and are successful with that claim.
While we are at it. Have to see how long Jews have been in residence in France, England, Germay, Italy, SPAIN in particular-- etc. Maybe we can claim parts of those countries for our own also. Couple hundred years of residency in a specific country and WAH..LAA...you get your own country-- within that particular Country. Sounds good to me. Who said Jews should have only ONE country? Christians have many countries to call their own --as do Moslems -- Jews should also. "

Ok, now you are making ridicuous your own statement that Jews have the right to claim all of Palestine because they lived there 1000's years ago.
If a country is inhabited by a people as a majority for hundreds of years than it is theirs. This is everywhere so in the world, can you give me one counter-example? Besides, current Jews are not the same the left israel 2000 years ago, they mixed with Europeans, moroccans, etc. and adopted culture from everywhere they came. Palestinians mixed with all the people who came along in palestine, even the crucifiers. Their historic bound with the land is indeniably stronger than the Jews.

"What works for one-- should work for all. No double standards. ."

exactly

[aid]

Vy govorite po-russki?

Nu togda ya nadeyus' chto vse vragi evreyskogo naroda - vsya krasno-korichnevaya svoloch' sdokhnut nezamedlitel'no.


Ihr ret af Yiddisch euch?

Then I will say about all the today's persecutors of the Jewish people - Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Arabists, Islamists:

Farbrennt zoll zey verdn.

[raven]

READ ALL ABOUT IT! TakeO in "From Time Immemorial" by J. Peters. ALL of what I said about the so called "Palistinians" is true. Read All About It in Joseph Farah Columns at www.worldnetdaily...He is an Arab and he knows who is who, and who are imposters. Show me the "DNA". Jews--yes even Jews that were FORCED (not left) OUT of Israel, forced to live in other places for centuries--have been found to have changed barely from their ancestors...All DNA evidence, all proven, all before you could stop us from proving our claims. We are just who we say we are, and the Palistinians are NOT who they say they are.

[raven]

Myths of the Middle East

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com


I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount.

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause.

After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what?

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right?

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing.

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem."

That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

******The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem.

Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct.

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.


SO THERE IS IS. THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph Farah is editor and chief executive officer of WorldNetDaily.com and writes a daily column. Get an autographed, first-edition copy of Joseph Farah's 1996 book, "This Land Is Our Land," published by St. Martin's Press.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
... Most people fled and were not able to return. besides the comments only on this board already show that they are not wanted and despised.

I wanted to comment on the fleeing of Arabs from Israel in 1948 and mention a nearly forgotten piece of Arab history.

Contrary to modern-day Arab propaganda, the Arabs fled because they were specifically ordered to leave, not by Israelis, but by the invading Arab armies sent to wipe out Israel.

These would-be Arab invaders wanted their fellow-Arabs to leave quickly so that the armies could roll in mercilessly into the newly-formed state of Israel and simply massacre all Jews in sight, without being hampered by the presence of the local Arabs. This is the reason for the vast majority of Arab refugees: they left of their own accord to make way for the impending genocide of Jews.

It is ironic that despite a history of Arab hatred and terrorism, 1.5 million Arabs now live in Israel as equal citizens, with respect and equal treatment under the law. True, many of them still complain about preference in municipal spending, but the bigger picture is that they are living beautifully courtesy of the Israeli democratic taxpayer.

[takeo]

"Vy govorite po-russki? " DA

"Nu togda ya nadeyus' chto vse vragi evreyskogo naroda - vsya krasno-korichnevaya svoloch' sdokhnut nezamedlitel'no. "

Thanks for your nice message :-)

"Than i hope all the ennemies of theJewish peope, all that red-brown coalition will die immidiately" right? You're really too sweet :-) Is this a personal threat?


"Ihr ret af Yiddisch euch?" ja (but can't write)

"Then I will say about all the today's persecutors of the Jewish people - Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Arabists, Islamists: "

"Farbrennt zoll zey verdn."
They will be burned? right?
This is so nice too, and shows your tolerance ;-)

Raven, is THAT your scientific source for your theory, wow, I'm impressed...
now if you had some historic scientific proove for this, even from Tel Aviv or Jerusalem university, i would have considered researching additional information about it...
just only the language he uses...
and the other stupidities as if jerusalem isn't a holy capital for the Muslims,makes his statements even more ridiculous. Every study of Islam is recognising this, around the world, I think in Israel as well.
I think that even the die-hard right-wing anti-arab zionists on this board have difficulties believing this theory...
Sorry you'll have to come with some more convincing and autoritive sources to convince me...

[takeo]

"I wanted to comment on the fleeing of Arabs from Israel in 1948 and mention a nearly forgotten piece of Arab history.
Contrary to modern-day Arab propaganda, the Arabs fled because they were specifically ordered to leave, not by Israelis, but by the invading Arab armies sent to wipe out Israel. "

This is not true, just check the pro-Israeli jewish library website, they say some were encouraged to leave by their leaders, but others were forced out by Israeli troops and most just fled in fear of the war and rumours of Jewish atrocities against palestinian civilians (sometimes justified).

"It is ironic that despite a history of Arab hatred and terrorism, 1.5 million Arabs now live in Israel as equal citizens, with respect and equal treatment under the law. True, many of them still complain about preference in municipal spending, but the bigger picture is that they are living beautifully courtesy of the Israeli democratic taxpayer."

this is only a small part of the original population that stayed. (according to stanford university around 20% )
besides, those Palestinians living in Israel have the same duties as all israeli citizens (pay tax for example) but not the same rights. their language isn't recognised as equal to Hebrew in official municipal use for example(in places a lot of palestinians are living), they suffer a lot of discrimination on the streets, in bars, for finding a job...
during the early days of the Intifadeh they had manifestations that weren't more violent than the Jewish demonstrations, but they ended in bloodshed and the army didn't protect them... this is reality for those people, but still they are alot mor fortunate than their palestinian brothers in Eastern Jerusalem and certainly in west-Bank or Gaza.

ps: one more note for Raven: one doesnt has to be jew to be zionist and one can be jew without being zionist, this has been prooven again. the Mossad couldn't have conducted their targetted assasinations without help from pals, and in France some Jews have a prominent role in the "anti-zionist forum" . (not me by the way)

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
"Vy govorite po-russki? " DA

You're really too sweet :-) Is this a personal threat?

"Ihr ret af Yiddisch euch?" ja (but can't write)

"Then I will say about all the today's persecutors of the Jewish people - Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Arabists, Islamists: "

"Farbrennt zoll zey verdn."
They will be burned? right?
This is so nice too, and shows your tolerance ;-)



No, it is not a threat. It is just my hope - HaTikvah - you know.

Yes, the coalition of scum includes the red, the brown, the black (both Fascists and Anarchists), and the green now. The green are Islamists.

If you choose to consider yourself part of this coalition - it is your choice, not mine. I am not sweet to real enemies of the Jewish people.

Farbrennt zoll zey verdn is a wish for them to burn. Much better them, than my, Jewish people in crematoriums and Arab firebombs. I have zero tolerance to crematoriums and firebombs exterminators. Not for any ideology, no matter how beautiful it may be, not for any "justice", not for nothing.

Eto ponyatno?

[aid]

UK chief rabbi: Muslims are the new anti-Semites


Britain's Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks says Muslims are the archetypal anti-Semites of the new millennium, while the State of Israel plays the role of the classically persecuted Jew. "It's moved," Rabbi Sacks said in an interview with Ha'aretz, "from Europe to the Middle East, from Christian culture to Islamic; from the individual Jew to the Jews as a sovereign nation. But essentially it remains the same: the inability, or at worst refusal, to grant Jews a space."

Sacks sees this as the backdrop to a current, two-track surge of anti-Semitism in the United Kingdom - among the country's two million Muslims and among the left-liberal media. Uninhibited disparagement of Jews has become rampant, and even acceptable, at London dinner parties; and Jewish community leaders are voicing concern. "The anti-Israel media have taken the Arab propaganda line on board," says Lord Greville Janner.

But others warn against against the tendency to regard every criticism of Israel as an expression of anti-Semitism.

Across the Channel, meanwhile, a wave of Jew-hatred seems to be inundating France, eliciting grave concern in the 600,000-strong Jewish community there. Synagogues have been fire-bombed, schools have been attacked and individuals have been cursed and harassed on the street.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=118908&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

Having been so fortunate as to meet Monsiuer Comrade Takeo on this board, I now understand fully well what is happening in France and why it is happening.

[takeo]

What is happening is that extremistic rabbi's, totally lacking compassion for the palestinian victims of zionism, consider every criticism on the expansionist military anti-peace policy of Israel as anti-semitism. (much like people on this board do) He also makes racist hatefull remarks by saying that "Muslims" (not some Muslims) are responsible. Instead of stressing the difference between the Jews in great-brittain and France and the policy of an israeli war-criminal, he just considers this to be one and the same. By doing this destroying all our efforts to make clear to the people that Israeli policy and Frensh jews are something totally different and of course further enhancing anti-semitism. (in France however it is clear to most people that many Jews dobn't agree with israeli policy, there even have been demonstations and anti-semitism has sharply declined).
And about the red-brown coalition: I think i have the right for my own opinion, and i don't support suicide-bombers nor concentration camps. Only i think the Pals deserve an own state and the right to return if their families originated in Israel, so that not only the jews but as well Palestinians can finally have their rights. If this is enough for you to wish me death, well than it just shows what an extremist you are.

[takeo]

About the new attacks in innocent civilians in Israel: I strongly condamn this, they should target the military occupiers, not innocent Israeli. But last week i said that the current hard-line policy of Sharon (refusing to talk, making false accusations, more attacks against PA, destroying houses of innocent palestinians, destroying all palestinian infrastructure more targetted assasinations, etc. ) would awake the flame of hate and violence. the worst is that everything is so predictable but nothing can be done to stop the extremists on both sides.

[aid]

Yep,

Whatever happens, Sharon is to blame.

[JustSad]

Takeo is fully right and i admire his persistent stamina in trying to talk some reason into you guys.

Putting effort in you is a waste of time and effort.
Your thinking is unfortunately no better then that of the average Palestinian or Al Qaida-terrorist. You are all crazy and dangerous. Israeli and Palestinians.

Be my guest. Call me an Arab. Call me an extremist. Call me a nazi, Call me anti-jew. Call me left-wing. Call me anything you want. I don't care.

Isolate yourself from the world. Be happy. You think you are right and the rest of the world is crazy. It is sad, but if that is your idea, go on and believe it.

But stop complaining that the rest of the world does not understand you. Stop crying like babies about complots against you. Be a man and take care of yourself. You told us Europeans what you think of us. OK, you achieved your goal. You insulted us. We will take our hands of you. We will do it today, or we will do it tommorrow. Israel will be more and more isolated and alone. And when you are without support and weakened, one day the Arabs will come if you don't change your policy.

[aid]

Go back under your rock.

[takeo]

The problem is that these guys call for more death and destruction in the Middle East while themselves they have a comfortable life in the US far beyond danger if the conflict in the middle-east should really escalate.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by JustSad
Takeo is fully right and i admire his persistent stamina in trying to talk some reason into you guys.

Putting effort in you is a waste of time and effort.
Your thinking is unfortunately no better then that of the average Palestinian or Al Qaida-terrorist. You are all crazy and dangerous. Israeli and Palestinians.

Be my guest. Call me an Arab. Call me an extremist. Call me a nazi, Call me anti-jew. Call me left-wing. Call me anything you want. I don't care.

Isolate yourself from the world. Be happy. You think you are right and the rest of the world is crazy. It is sad, but if that is your idea, go on and believe it.

But stop complaining that the rest of the world does not understand you. Stop crying like babies about complots against you. Be a man and take care of yourself. You told us Europeans what you think of us. OK, you achieved your goal. You insulted us. We will take our hands of you. We will do it today, or we will do it tommorrow. Israel will be more and more isolated and alone. And when you are without support and weakened, one day the Arabs will come if you don't change your policy.

Listen Sad,

Everyone here is welcome to bring up their opinions. Some people are pro-Israel, some anti-Israel. We have Europeans, Americans, Arabs, and Jews from many countries all engaged in discussion. That is what this forum is all about.

But you've come here brow-beating and shaking your finger at us with a patronizing and demeaning tone. You then arrogantly instructed all of us what to think and what to say. That's not what this forum is all about.

If you want to discuss your opinions, then great. Smart people who are well informed enrich our community and make for entertaining reading.

But if you are not capable of communicating your ideas without offending just about everyone, then you can draw your own conclusions.

[Odysee]

Oh! Like the Palestinians want peace! Hah!
Do you seriously think Jew_killer119 that the Arabs would happily Co-exist with the Israelis? As your name suggests, the Palestinians want all Jews DEAD. That is why the USA should go to war with Syria and Palestine.

[victot]

man, i was just rereading the posts here; everyone here is too frikkin intelligent. yall know too much history and are too articulate and what not, heh.
oh well, i hope palestinians get gaza + west bank, + shared jerusalem, both sides feel bad about what they did to eachother...
what's wrong with that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!!?!?!??!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!
heh, now everyone, be more or less that simplistics!!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by victot
man, i was just rereading the posts here; everyone here is too frikkin intelligent. yall know too much history and are too articulate and what not, heh.

Anything that sounds even remotely intelligent from me is definitely from copy-and-paste operations from other sites. :cool:

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by victot
oh well, i hope palestinians get gaza + west bank, + shared jerusalem, both sides feel bad about what they did to eachother...
what's wrong with that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!!?!?!??!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!


The main thing that is wrong is that the Palestinians have proven that they are incapable existing without mass murdering their neighbors. That's why when basically all this was offered to them by former Israeli PM Ehud Barak at Camp David 2000, Arafat rejected the offer and turned to terrorism which has cost the lives of hundreds of innocent Jews.

In the eyes of Arafat, the offer made to him was not sufficient to cause the destruction of Israel, so he had to reject the offer.

But realistically most likely, the scenario you described will ultimately be close to the final settlement forced on Israel.

[alexbmn]

I'm surprised that so many people took so much time to answer this worthless anti-semite(as Martin Luther King said ,"Anti -Zionism is Anti-Semitism,).since anything we say they simply twist to fit their reality,so I dont really want to involve myself in a long useless argument on this subject.

As we all know Jews arrived at the land of Isarel legally they acquired land there legally,their country was created legally through a UN resolution which the Arabs immediately rejected and attacked Israel to destroy it.Israel aquired the West Bank(historical Judea and Samarea) in a defensive war and had to implement certain measures (which may not always be nice) in order to safeguard its security because the people living there have never accepted its existence.And lets not forget Israe'sl need for a buffer zone.(funny how Palestinians never tried to fight against Tranjordan which occupied the territories from 1948 to 1967)Where was their national identity back then? By the way the PLO was created in 1964 meaning prior to the Six day war,meaning the only thing they intented to do is liberate all of Palestine. Despite that their efforts were never reciprocated Israel often desired to make peace with its enemies and in 2000 offered 95% of West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians ,which the Palestinians refused and then launched a bloody war (let me guess those other five percent would for some reason render the Palestinians state worthless)

[alexbmn]

Why Israel Is The Victim And The Arabs Are The Indefensible Aggressors In the Middle East

http://www.jewishworldreview.com -- ZIONISM is a national liberation movement, identical in most ways to other liberation movements that leftists and progressives the world over -- and in virtually every case but this one -- fervently support. This exceptionalism is also visible at the reverse end of the political spectrum: In every other instance, right-wingers like Patrick Buchanan oppose national liberation movements that are under the spell of Marxist delusions and committed to violent means. But they make an exception for the one that Palestinians have aimed at the Jews. The unique opposition to a Jewish homeland at both ends of the political spectrum identifies the problem that Zionism was created to solve.

The "Jewish problem" is just another name for the fact that Jews are the most universally hated and persecuted ethnic group in history. The Zionist founders believed that hatred of Jews was a direct consequence of their stateless condition. As long as Jews were aliens in every society they found themselves in, they would always be seen as interlopers, their loyalties would be suspect and persecution would follow. This was what happened to Captain Alfred Dreyfus, whom French anti-Semites falsely accused of spying and who was put on trial for treason by the French government in the 19th Century. Theodore Herzl was an assimilated, westernized Jew, who witnessed the Dreyfus frame- up in Paris and went on to lead the Zionist movement.


Herzl and other Zionist founders believed that if Jews had a nation of their own, the very fact would "normalize" their condition in the community of nations. Jews had been without a state since the beginning of the diaspora, when the Romans expelled them from Judea on the west bank of the Jordan River, some 2,000 years before. Once the Jews obtained a homeland - Judea itself seemed a logical site -- and were again like other peoples, the Zionists believed anti-Semitism would wither on its poisonous vine and the Jewish problem would disappear.


Here is what happened instead.


2. The Beginnings


In the 1920s, among their final acts as victors in World War I, the British and French created the states that now define the Middle East out of the ashes of the empire of their defeated Turkish adversary. In a region that the Ottoman Turks had controlled for hundreds of years, Britain and France drew the boundaries of the new states, Syria Lebanon and Iraq. Previously, the British had promised the Jewish Zionists that they could establish a "national home" in a portion of what remained of the area, which was known as the Palestine Mandate. But in 1921 the British separated 80 percent of the Mandate, east of the Jordan, and created the Arab kingdom of "Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah, who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian Peninsula and lacked a seat of power. Abudllah's tribe was Hashemite, while the vast majority of Abdullah's subjects were Palestinian Arabs.


What was left of the original Palestine Mandate - between the west bank of the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea - had been settled by Arabs and Jews. Jews, in fact, had lived in the area continuously for 3,700 years, even after the Romans destroyed their state in Judea in CE 70. Arabs became the dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century CE as a result of the Muslim invasions. The Arabs were largely nomads who had no distinctive language or culture to separate them from other Arabs. In all the time since, they had made no attempt to create an independent Palestinian state west or east of the Jordan and none was ever established.


In 1948, at the request of the Jews who were living in Palestine, the United Nations voted to partition the remaining quarter of the original Mandate to make a Jewish homeland possible. Under the partition plan, the Arabs were given the Jews' ancient home in Judea and Samaria - now known as the West Bank. The Jews were allotted three slivers of disconnected land along the Mediterranean and the Sinai desert. They were also given access to their holy city of Jerusalem, but as an island cut off from the slivers, surrounded by Arab land and under international control. Sixty percent of the land allotted to the Jews was the Negev desert. Out of these unpromising parts, the Jews created a new state, Israel, in 1948. At this time, the idea of a Palestinian nation, or a movement to create one did not even exist.


At the moment of Israel's birth, Palestinian Arabs lived on roughly 90 percent of the original Palestine Mandate - in Transjordan and in the UN partition area, but also in the new state of Israel itself. There were 800,000 Arabs living in Israel alongside 1.2 million Jews. At the same time, Jews were legally barred from settling in the 35,000 square miles of Palestinian Transjordan, which eventually was renamed simply "Jordan."


The Arab population in the slivers called Israel had actually more than tripled since the Zionists first began settling the region in significant numbers in the 1880s.The reason for this increase was that the Jewish settlers had brought industrial and agricultural development with them, which attracted Arab immigrants to what had previously been a sparsely settled and economically destitute area.


If the Palestinian Arabs had been willing to accept this arrangement in which they received 90 percent of the land in the Palestine Mandate, and under which they benefited from the industry, enterprise and political democracy the Jews brought to the region, there would have been no Middle East conflict. But this was not to be.


Instead, the Arab League - representing five neighboring Arab states - declared war on Israel on the day of its creation, and five Arab armies invaded the slivers with the aim of destroying the infant Jewish state. During the fighting, according to the UN mediator on the scene, an estimated 472,000 Arabs fled their homes to escape the dangers. They planned on returning after an Arab victory and the destruction of the Jewish state.


But the Jews -- many of them recent Holocaust survivors -- refused to be defeated. Instead, the five Arab armies that had invaded their slivers were repelled. Yet there was no peace. Even though their armies were beaten, the Arab states were determined to carry on their campaign of destruction, and to remain formally at war with the Israeli state. After the defeat of the Arab armies, the Palestinians who lived in the Arab area of the UN partition did not attempt to create a state of their own. Instead, in 1950, Jordan annexed the entire West Bank.

[alexbmn]

3. Refugees: Jewish and Arab


As a result of the annexation and the continuing state of war, the Arab refugees who had fled the Israeli slivers did not return. There was a refugee flow into Israel, but it was a flow of Jews who had been expelled from the Arab countries. All over the Middle East, Jews were forced to leave lands they had lived on for centuries. Although Israel was a tiny geographical area and a fledgling state, its government welcomed and resettled 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries.


At the same time, the Jews resumed their work of creating a new nation in what was now a single sliver of land. Israel, had annexed a small amount of territory to make their state defensible, including a land bridge that included Jerusalem.


In the years that followed, the Israelis made their desert bloom. They built the only industrialized economy in the entire Middle East. They built the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. They treated the Arabs who remained in Israel well. To this day the very large Arab minority, which lives inside the state of Israel, has more rights and privileges than any other Arab population in the entire Middle East.


This is especially true of the Arabs living under Yasser Arafat's corrupt dictatorship, the Palestine Authority, which today administers the West Bank and the Gaza strip, and whose Arab subjects have no human rights. In 1997, in a fit of pique against the Oslo Accords, Palestinian spokesman Edward Said himself blurted this out, calling Arafat "our Papa Doc" - after the sadistic dictator of Haiti - and complaining that there was "a total absence of law or the rule of law in the Palestinian autonomy areas."


The present Middle East conflict is said to be about the "occupied territories" - the West Bank of the Jordan and the Gaza strip - and about Israel's refusal to "give them up." But during the first twenty years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel did not control the West Bank. In 1950, when Jordan annexed the West Bank, there was no Arab outrage. Nor did the Middle East conflict with the Jews subside.


The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation of the West Bank was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim. The idea that the current conflict is about "occupied territories" is only one of the many large Arab deceits -- now widely accepted -- that have distorted the history of the Middle East wars.


4. The Arab Wars Against Israel


In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel for a second time and were again defeated. It was in repelling these aggressors that Israel came to control the West Bank and the Gaza strip, as well as the oil-rich Sinai desert. Israel had every right to annex these territories captured from the aggressors - a time honored ritual among nations, and in fact the precise way that Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan had come into existence themselves. But Israel did not do so. On the other hand, neither did it withdraw its armies or relinquish its control.


The reason was that the Arab aggressors once again refused to make peace. Instead, they declared themselves still at war with Israel, a threat no Israeli government could afford to ignore. By this time, Israel was a country of 2 or 3 million surrounded by declared enemies whose combined populations numbered over 100 million. Geographically Israel was so small that at one point it was less than ten miles across. No responsible Israeli government could relinquish a territorial buffer while its hostile neighbors were still formally at war. This is the reality that frames the Middle East conflict.


In 1973, six years after the second Arab war against the Jews, the Arab armies again attacked Israel. The attack was led by Syria and Egypt, abetted by Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and five other countries who gave military support to the aggressors, including an Iraqi division of 18,000 men. Israel again defeated the Arab forces. Afterwards, Egypt - and Egypt alone -- agreed to make a formal peace.


The peace was signed by Egyptian president, Anwar Sadat, who was subsequently assassinated by Islamic radicals, paying for his statesmanship with his life. Sadat is one of three Arab leaders assassinated by other Arabs for making peace with the Jews.


Under the Camp David accords that Sadat signed, Israel returned the entire Sinai with all its oil riches. This act demonstrated once and for all that the solution to the Middle East conflict was ready at hand. It only required the willingness of the Arabs to agree.


The Middle East conflict is not about Israel's occupation of the territories; it is about the refusal of the Arabs to make peace with Israel, which is an inevitable by-product of their desire to destroy it.


5. Self-Determination Is Not The Agenda


The Palestinians and their supporters also claim that the Middle East conflict is about the Palestinians' yearning for a state and the refusal of Israel to accept their aspiration. This claim is also false. The Palestine Liberation Organization was created in 1964, sixteen years after the establishment of Israel and the first anti-Israel war. The PLO was created at a time the West Bank was not under Israeli control but was part of Jordan. The PLO, however, was not created so that the Palestinians could achieve self-determination in Jordan, which at the time comprised 90 percent of the original Palestine Mandate. The PLO's express purpose, in the words of its own leaders, was to "push the Jews into the sea."


The official charter of the new Palestine Liberation Organization referred to the "Zionist invasion," declared that Israel's Jews were "not an independent nationality," described Zionism as "racist" and "fascist," called for "the liquidation of the Zionist presence," and specified, "armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." In short, "liberation" required the destruction of the Jewish state. The PLO was not even created by Palestinians but by the Arab League -- the corrupt dictators who ruled the Middle East and who had attempted to destroy Israel by military force in 1948, in 1967 and again in 1973.


For thirty years, the PLO charter remained unchanged in its call for Israel's destruction. Then in the mid-1990s, under enormous international pressure following the 1993 Oslo accords, PLO leader Yasser Arafat removed the clause while assuring his followers that its removal was a necessary compromise that did not alter the movement's goals. He did this explicitly and also by citing a historical precedent in which the Prophet Muhammad insincerely agreed to a peace with his enemies in order to gain time to mass the forces with which he intended to destroy them.


6. The Struggle to Destroy Israel


The Middle East struggle is not about right against right. It is about a fifty-year effort by the Arabs to destroy the Jewish state, and the refusal of the Arab states in general and the Palestinian Arabs in particular to accept Israel's existence. If the Arabs were willing to do this, there would be no occupied territories and there would be a Palestinian state.


Even during the "Oslo" peace process -- when the Palestine Liberation Organization pretended to recognize the existence of Israel and the Jews therefore allowed the creation of a "Palestine Authority" -- it was clear that the PLO's goal was Israel's destruction, and not just because its leader invoked the Prophet Muhammad's own deception. The Palestinians' determination to destroy Israel is abundantly clear in their newly created demand of a "right of return" to Israel for "5 million" Arabs. The figure of 5 million refugees who must be returned to Israel is more than ten times the number of Arabs who actually left the Jewish slivers of the British Mandate in 1948.


In addition to its absurdity, this new demand has several aspects that reveal the Palestinians' genocidal agenda for the Jews. The first is that the "right of return" is itself a calculated mockery of the primary reason for Israel's existence -- the fact that no country would provide a refuge for Jews fleeing Hitler's extermination program during World War II. It is only because the world turned its back on the Jews when their survival was at stake that the state of Israel grants a "right of return." to every Jew who asks for it.


But there is no genocidal threat to Arabs, no lack of international support militarily and economically, and no Palestinian "diaspora" (although the Palestinians have cynically appropriated the very term to describe their self-inflicted quandary). The fact that many Arabs, including the Palestinian spiritual leader -- the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem -- supported Hitler's "Final Solution" only serves to compound the insult. It is even further compounded by the fact that more than 90 percent of the Palestinians now in the West Bank and Gaza have never lived a day of their lives in territorial Israel. The claim of a "right of return" is thus little more than a brazen expression of contempt for the Jews, and for their historic suffering.


More importantly it is an expression of contempt for the very idea of a Jewish state. The incorporation of five million Arabs into Israel would render the Jews a permanent minority in their own country, and would thus spell the end of Israel. The Arabs fully understand this, and that is why they have made it a fundamental demand. It is just one more instance of the general bad faith the Arab side has manifested through every chapter of these tragic events.

[alexbmn]

Possibly the most glaring expression of the Arabs' bad faith is their deplorable treatment of the Palestinian refugees and refusal for half a century to relocate them, or to alleviate their condition, even during the years they were under Jordanian rule. While Israel was making the desert bloom and relocating 600,000 Jewish refugees from Arab states, and building a thriving industrial democracy in its allotted sliver, the Arabs were busy making sure that their refugees remained in squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza, where they were powerless, right-less, and economically destitute.


Today, fifty years after the first Arab war against Israel, there are 59 such refugee camps and 3.7 million "refugees" registered with the UN. Despite economic aid from the UN and Israel itself, despite the oil wealth of the Arab kingdoms, the Arab leaders have refused to undertake the efforts that would liberate the refugees from their miserable camps, or to make the economic investment that would alleviate their condition. There are now 22 Arab states providing homes for the same ethnic population, speaking a common Arabic language. But the only one that will allow Palestinian Arabs to become citizens is Jordan. And the only state the Palestinians covet is Israel.


7. The Policy of Resentment and Hate


The refusal to address the condition of the Palestinian refugee population is - and has always been -- a calculated Arab policy, intended to keep the Palestinians in a state of desperation in order to incite their hatred of Israel for the wars to come. Not to leave anything to chance, the mosques and schools of the Arabs generally -- and the Palestinians in particular -- preach and teach Jew hatred every day. Elementary school children in Palestinian Arab schools are even taught to chant "Death to the heathen Jews" in their classrooms as they are learning to read. It should not be overlooked, that these twin policies of deprivation (of the Palestinian Arabs) and hatred (of the Jews) are carried out without any protest from any sector of Palestinian or Arab society. That in itself speaks volumes about the nature of the Middle East conflict.


All wars -- especially wars that have gone on for fifty years - produce victims with just grievances on both sides. And that is true in this one. There are plenty of individual Palestinian victims, as there are Jewish victims, familiar from the nightly news. But the collective Palestinian grievance is without justice. It is a self-inflicted wound, the product of the Arabs' xenophobia, bigotry, exploitation of their own people, and apparent inability to be generous towards those who are not Arabs. While Israel is an open, democratic, multi-ethnic, multicultural society that includes a large enfranchised Arab minority, the Palestine Authority is an intolerant, undemocratic, monolithic police state with one dictatorial leader, whose ruinous career has run now for 37 years.


As the repellent attitudes, criminal methods and dishonest goals of the Palestine liberation movement should make clear to any reasonable observer, its present cause is based on Jew hatred, and on resentment of the modern, democratic West, and little else. Since there was no Palestinian nation before the creation of Israel, and since Palestinians regarded themselves simply as Arabs and their land as part of Syria, it is not surprising that many of the chief creators of the Palestine Liberation Organization did not even live in the Palestine Mandate before the creation of Israel, let alone in the sliver of mostly desert that was allotted to the Jews. Edward Said, the leading intellectual mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause grew up in a family that chose to make its home in Egypt and the United States. Yasser Arafat was born in Egypt.


While the same Arab states that claim to be outraged by the Jews' treatment of Palestinians treat their own Arab populations far worse than Arabs are treated in Israel, they are also silent about the disenfranchised Palestinian majority that lives in Jordan. In 1970, Jordan's King Hussein massacred thousands of PLO militants. But the PLO does not call for the overthrow of Hashemite rule in Jordan and does not hate the Hashemite monarchy. Only Jews are hated.


It is a hatred, moreover, that is increasingly lethal. Today, 70 percent of the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza approve the suicide bombing of women and children if the targets are Jews. There is no Arab "Peace Now" movement, not even a small one, whereas in Israel the movement demanding concessions to Arabs in the name of peace is a formidable political force. There is no Arab spokesman who will speak for the rights and sufferings of Jews, but there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel - and all over the world - who will speak for "justice" for the Palestinians. How can the Jews expect fair treatment from a people that collectively does not even recognize their humanity?

[alexbmn]

8. A Phony Peace


The Oslo peace process begun in 1993 was based on the pledge of both parties to renounce violence as a means of settling their dispute. But the Palestinians never renounced violence and in the year 2000, they officially launched a new Intifada against Israel, effectively terminating the peace process.


In fact, during the peace process -- between 1993 and 1999 -- there were over 4,000 terrorist incidents committed by Palestinians against Israelis, and more than 1,000 Israelis killed as a result of Palestinian attacks - more than had been killed in the previous 25 years. By contrast, during the same period 1993-1999 Israelis were so desperate for peace that they reciprocated these acts of murder by giving the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza a self-governing authority, a 40,000 man armed "police force," and 95 percent of the territory their negotiators demanded. This Israeli generosity was rewarded by a rejection of peace, suicide bombings of crowded discos and shopping malls, an outpouring of ethnic hatred and a renewed declaration of war.


In fact, the Palestinians broke the Oslo Accords precisely because of Israeli generosity, because the government of Ehud Barak offered to meet 95 percent of their demands, including turning over parts of Jerusalem to their control -- a possibility once considered unthinkable. These concessions confronted Arafat with the one outcome he did not want: Peace with Israel. Peace without the destruction of the "Jewish Entity."


Arafat rejected these Israeli concessions, accompanying his rejection with a new explosion of anti-Jewish violence. He named this violence -- deviously -- "The Al-Aksa Intifada," after the mosque on the Temple Mount. His new jihad was given the name of a Muslim shrine to create the illusion that the Intifada was provoked not by his unilateral destruction of the Oslo peace process, but by Ariel Sharon's visit to the site. Months after the Intifada began, the Palestine Authority itself admitted this was just another Arafat lie.


In fact, the Intifada had been planned months before Sharon's visit as a follow-up to the rejection of the Oslo Accords. In the words of Imad Faluji, the Palestine Authority's communications minister, "[The uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former U.S. president [Clinton] and rejected the American conditions." The same conclusion was reached by the Mitchell Commission headed by former U.S. Senator George Mitchell to investigate the events: "The Sharon visit did not cause the Al-Aksa Intifada."

[alexbmn]

9. Moral Distinctions


In assessing the Middle East impasse it is important to pay attention to the moral distinction revealed in the actions of the two combatants. When a deranged Jew goes into an Arab mosque and kills the worshippers (which happened once) he is acting alone and is universally condemned by the Israeli government and the Jews in Israel and everywhere, and he is punished to the full extent of Israeli law. But when a young Arab enters a disco filled with teenagers or a shopping mall or bus crowded with women and children and blows himself and innocent bystanders up (which happens frequently), he is someone who has been trained and sent by a component of the PLO or the Palestine Authority; he is officially praised as a hero by Yasser Arafat; his mother is given money by the Palestine Authority; and his Arab neighbors come to pay honor to the household for having produced a "martyr for Allah." The Palestinian liberation movement is the first such movement to elevate the killing of children - both the enemy's and its own - into a religious calling and a strategy of the cause.


It is not only the methods of the Palestine liberation movement that are morally repellent. The Palestinian cause is itself corrupt. The "Palestinian problem" is a problem created by the Arabs, and can only be solved by them. In Jordan, Palestinians already have a state in which they are a majority but which denies them self-determination. Why is Jordan not the object of the Palestinian "liberation" struggle? The only possible answer is because it is not ruled by Jews.


There is a famous "green line" marking the boundary between Israel and its Arab neighbors. That green line is also the bottom line for what is the real problem in the Middle East. It is green because plants are growing in the desert on the Israeli side but not on the Arab side. The Jews got a sliver of land without oil, and created abundant wealth and life in all its rich and diverse forms. The Arabs got nine times the acreage but all they have done with it is to sit on its aridity and nurture the poverty, resentments and hatreds of its inhabitants. Out of these dark elements they have created and perfected the most vile anti-human terrorism the world has ever seen: Suicide bombing of civilians. In fact, the Palestinians are a community of suicide bombers: they want the destruction of Israel more than they want a better life.


If a nation state is all the Palestinians desire, Jordan would be the solution. (So would settling for 95 percent of one's demands.) But the Palestinians also want to destroy Israel. This is morally hateful. It is the Nazi virus revived. Nonetheless, the Palestinian cause is generally supported by the international community, with the singular exception of the United States (and to a lesser degree Great Britain). It is precisely because the Palestinians want to destroy a state that Jews have created -- and because they are killing Jews -- that they enjoy international credibility and otherwise inexplicable support.


10. The Jewish Problem Again


It is this international resistance to the cause of Jewish survival, the persistence of global Jew-hatred that, in the end, refutes the Zionist hope of a solution to the "Jewish problem." The creation of Israel is an awe-inspiring human success story. But the permanent war to destroy it undermines the original Zionist idea.


More than fifty years after the creation of Israel, the Jews are still the most hated ethnic group in the world. Islamic radicals want to destroy Israel, but do so Islamic moderates. For the Jews in the Middle East, the present conflict is a life and death struggle, yet every government in the UN with the exception of the United States and sometimes Britain regularly votes against Israel in the face of a terrorist enemy, who has no respect for the rights or lives of Jews. After the Al-Qaeda attack on the World Trade Center, the French ambassador to England complained that the whole world was endangered because of "that shitty little country," Israel. This caused a scandal in England, but nowhere else. All that stands between the Jews of the Middle East and another Holocaust is their own military prowess and the generous, humanitarian support of the United States.


Even in the United States, however, one can now turn the TV to channels like MSNBC and CNN to see Ariel Sharon who is the elected Prime Minister of a democracy equated politically and morally with Yasser Arafat who is a dictator, a terrorist and an enemy of the United States. One can see the same equivalence drawn between Israel's democracy and the Palestine Authority, which is a terrorist entity and an ally of America's enemies Al Qaeda and Iraq.


During the Gulf War, Israel was America's staunch ally while Arafat and the Palestinians openly supported the aggressor, Saddam Hussein. Yet the next two U.S. Governments - Republican and Democrat alike - strove for even-handed "neutrality" in the conflict in the Middle East, and pressured Israel into a suicidal "peace process" with a foe dedicated to its destruction. It is only since September 11 that the United States has been willing to recognize Arafat as an enemy of peace and not a viable negotiating partner.


The Zionists' efforts created a thriving democracy for the Jews of Israel (and also for the million Arabs who live in Israel), but failed to normalize the Jewish people or make them safe in a world that hates them. From the point of view of the "Jewish problem," which Herzl and the Zionist founders set out to solve, it is better today to be a Jew in America than a Jew in Israel.


This is one reason why I myself am not a Zionist but an unambivalent, passionate American patriot. America is good for the Jews as it is good for every other minority who embraces its social contract. But this history is also why I am a fierce supporter of Israel's survival and have no sympathy for the Palestinian side in the conflict in the Middle East. Nor will I have such sympathy until the day comes when I can look into the Palestinians' eyes and see something other than death desired for Jews like me.

[takeo]

"In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel for a second time and were again defeated. "


"HISTORY
1967 May: Mobilizing of forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders.
June 5: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Great victories for Israel are achieved immediately. Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.
June 7: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el Sheikh is captured.
— Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
June 8: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fightings on the Egyptian front are ceased.
June 10: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control. "

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/sixdaywr.htm

This is from the extremely pro-israeli website: "jewish virtual library": http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

" Arab rhetoric was matched by the mobilization of Arab forces.
By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel had no choice but preemptive action. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage. On June 5, the order was given to attack Egypt."






Just one of the many obvious untruth in your posts, that are only a repetition of the established propaganda, even a large part of the israeli society doesn't believe this.
I don't have the time now to answer all your posts, maybe later i will, but i doubt it will make any difference on you as clearly you prefere myths over reality, with the single goal of legitimising what is happening in Israel today and blaming the other side for everything.

[alexbmn]

dont bother.Didnt I make it clear enough that I couldnt even give a rats ass about what you say.

[Negev]

Originally posted by alexbmn
It is not only the methods of the Palestine liberation movement that are morally repellent. The Palestinian cause is itself corrupt. The "Palestinian problem" is a problem created by the Arabs, and can only be solved by them. In Jordan, Palestinians already have a state in which they are a majority but which denies them self-determination. Why is Jordan not the object of the Palestinian "liberation" struggle? The only possible answer is because it is not ruled by Jews.

this is a very good article. It presents the facts exactly as they are.

jordan is the first palestinian state, yet when palestinians go out to riot there against governement policies, the jordanians simply whip out the old machine gun and send a few rioters to meet allah prematurely, and things quiet down.

of course, the world says nothing to condemn poor king Hussein, the champion of mideast peace.

there is a lesson to be learned from the jordanians that palestinians only understand major force and not diplomacy.

i also agree with newsguy that after the palestinians get their second state in israel, and after they get several millions of tons of weapons shipped from iran, then the greater Arafatistan will include the west bank, gaza and jordan soon enough.

[aid]

Takeo,

History must look very different from the "Island of Freedom".

Did you do what I asked you?

Did you wish the bearded tyrant a mausoleum in the nearest future?

Did they start building it? If they did, I would volunteer my help.

Viva Cuba!

Viva la RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRevolucion!

Allahu Akbar!

A zoch und vey...