is peace really possible?

[ayesha]

upon the advice of a fellow member i have decided to post one of my previous posts here in order to see if any constructive views could be added.

It's interesting to read your views in this thread, although I'm a Lebanese woman and not sure I'm welcome here. Nevertheless, upon readingother sites, I wish to add a few words of my own opinion.

Peace is a state of being that all communities should strive for, a state in which everyone works and lives in harmony and co-operation. Sounds reasonable. However, is it really necessary? I hear people saying peace is not an option nowadays, Israelis and Palestinians do not want peace, and so peace is not desired. Let's check this..

The situation as it is now is not acceptable. A life of fear, anger and hate professed on both sides. Let's examine the different solutions as they are perceived from different points of view. Some Palestinians suggest to continue armed resistance and to build up military power and force Israel to withdraw its occupation. To answer this I point to Israel's extensive military experience and technology, and also point to statistics of recent years concerning territories, casualties and their knock-on effects on the economy. Armed resistance means completely destroying the land, with little or no progress to freedom.

Some Israelis suggest to transfer or, better stil, eradicate the entire Palestinian population. However, to answer this I must say that wherever the Arab/Palestinian may be, ambitions will not be surpressed and their desire to fight for their cause will only increase with time. No fence or border will ever protect Israel from this, and she is shown this time and time again. Transfer only means perpetuating Palestinian actions against Israel. Continued clashes will worsen the Palestinians' life and thus strenthen the armed resistance and guerilla warfare.

Of course, only a peace agreement will eventually lead to true safety. Any other 'solution' means either hiding behind an illusion of safety or perpetuating the dangers through endless conflict, where no side can 'win'.

The question remains, how shall we decide what is the desired fair peace? Who gets what and why? Many ould clearly say the right thing to do in order to judge this is to go to history books and see exactly what happened, and rule according to this information. That is the right thing to do in my opinion as well.
But is it really that simple?
There is no history. This is easily seen from the vast information on the web, where all points of view are mixed, not bound by any border. Studying the available histories can create some confusion. There are extreme differences between histories as each side portrays it. Can we reach a mutual decision about one, true history? There is in my books and maybe that has a lot with me being lebanese. But then to ba fair and true I tell myself that the roots of why the Jews feel a connection to the land is irrelevant. The feeling is enough.

Some Israelis might say "We are fighting a war, Palestinians don't want peace, they're not ready for self-governing, will never abandon the way of violence."
Some Palestinians might say "We are being occupied by a vicious, ruthless army, and though the Israeli government claims to be 'peaceful' they really want surrender NOT peace."
On both sides you will find people saying "They seek to destroy us." Even agreeing on the present is not simple. Except maybe, hat things should not continue as they are.

Obviously, there is a clash concerning territories and governing, concerning rights and obligations, concerning limits and borders. However, I believe that there is a middle point that both sides can agree on, and once this common ground is found things will be different. How different? Peace? Love? Happiness? I doubt it. BUT there will be TOLERANCE. I may hate my neighbour playing loud music long into the early hours BUT I could tolerate it for a while, and then maybe have a quiet word if things persist - agreeing that as long as s/he chooses an appropriate time I'd be ok with it. We could write up a timetable and stick to it..sounds trivial but I think the principle is quite relevant and reliable.

Nevertheless, even then there will be a long road ahead. But the change could mean that things could finally start moving in a positive direction. Obviously change will not be easy and it will be frustrating, but the way things are today they seem to be going downhill, deeper into an abyss that will be impossible to get out of. Leading to more destruction, more bitterness and more death. Then less understanding and consequently bigger gaps to bridge.

To have a durable condition of safety and peace there cannot be a situation in which neighbouring people have extremely different living conditions. - Where some have a relatively prosperous life and others a life of poverty with distinct cruel differences. A rich nation neighbouring an extremely poor one. Why not? because sucha difference will create financial dependence, and will rvive, strengthen and justify resentment and friction between the two sides. Moreover, if the difference is extreme, it will lead to the poorer side giving birth to extreme actions..here's where the suicide bombing takes effect. Also, it will lead to the richer side giving birth to ideas of superiority, and contempt to exploit.

So, it is an objective to create prosperity throughout the region, to build up the Palestinians' quality of life, be it industry or schooling. The current situation only serves to cripple what is left of the Palestinian economy. So an immediate step to final peace must be to stop ruining the Palestinian economy. Nonetheless, more steps are needed, many more, and the financial aid can only be gained through a peace agreement, by international financial aids to support peace.

It is agreed by most people concerned with the conflict, that the solution will be two territories, one to Israelis, one to Palestinians. The difficult thing to agree on is the line between those two territories.

So how can a border line be agreed by everyone? We should remember that both Palestinians need space to work, live and cultivate land.
Agreement must be based on mutual recognition.
Agreement must be based on equality between the sides.
These are necessary in order to form any sort of foundation for equal and just negotiations, negotiations leading to a border-agreement that will not be a source for further dispute.

The fate of Jerusalem, the right of return and the settlemets are all controversial issues. Countless different opinions, demands and arguments. The different solutions propsed must be reviewed by both parties. To either, some solutions may seem acceptable and other solutions may not BUT few solutions will seem like outright insanity! What is likely to happen is not a single negotiation will immediately be tagged as acceptable by both parties. However, as in any negotiation, ONE of the solutions can and will be agreed upon.
Big stones can be moved and it will take time, effort and long, painful talks. Difficult but possible.

The past is a good teacher. It has taught us that a peoples' self-determination cannot be surpressed and must not be dictated.
The past teaches us that a situation in which behind a fence people live in hunger, fear and humilation is not tolerable and only nds in both sides' sacred blood being spilled.

[ayesha]

how about if we take the same structure used for Washington D.C.? It doesnt belong to ANY group yet is governed by all??
just a thought

[Simon]

A good idea in principle.

The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Without that, everything you have written is worthless.

[Rafman]

If I understand you correctly, what you say makes sense. It's unrealistic to think that on one nice and sunny day, Israelies and Palestinians will sit down, sign a peiece of paper and peace will come from it... It simply won't happen that way.


and what Simon says, well is just as unrealistic. You say we need to "start" by reversing the brainwash by islamic fanatics, and i say that is not a start, that is the heart, the whole of the problem. If you fix that, you fix the problem, and that is much easier said than done.


I agree ayesha to the extent that, the bad living conditions that Palestinians are currently living it makes them more susceptible to want to just blame it on Israel, and thus hate them for it. I mean sure, everyone here in america always says, money is everything. If you have money, everything is possible. I'm sure the mentality in the Middle East is the exact same thing. If the Palestinian economy was striving, if they were making money much of the hatred towards Israel would be relegated as a secondary issue.

So if there is a way to revive the economic status of the Palestinians, no doubt it would greatly help this struggle. However, the problem is everything is tied to terrorism in the end. Its due to terrorist attacks that Israel empose strict sanctions and curfiews, to prevent more attacks, which hurt the economy. To revive the palestinian economy as you say, means to give them much, much more freedom than they currently have, but that would inevitably lead to more terrorist acts, so it won't happen in the current state of things

What really needs to be done, is for the PA to get new leadership. A new responsible leader, who will fight the terrorism actively. That might open up the route to peace

[ibrodsky]

Ayesha,

Please understand that when some of us ask whether peace is necessary, we are not saying that a state of peace between the two peoples is undesirable.

The point is whether we must return to the official "peace process" or if near-term security and stability can be obtained in some other way.

The idea of expelling Palestinians from the WB and perhaps Gaza is an idea that would have no meaningful support if there were not Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians.

Ayesha, there is more to peace than just resolving controversial issues. It is well known that many Palestinian militants believe in a two-step plan to destroy Israel. They have publicly said so. Israelis are perhaps split on whether Jerusalem can and should be divided. Few Israelis, however, see the "right of return" of large numbers to inside Israel as anything but a Trojan horse. Particularly when placed side-by-side with the Palestinian demand that Jewish settlements be dismantled.

Thus, there has to be evidence of a genuine desire for peace -- not just talking "peace" as a tactical maneuvre.

The first demand of those who sincerely seek peace is a halt to terrorist attacks. It is well known to everyone that Israel would not have forces in Palestinin towns and cities today were it not for these attacks. Those who pretend the terrorist attacks are a response to renewed military presence are shameless liars.

But if the Palestinian side is not willing to really shut down terrorist groups, then certainly Israel does not need a false "peace" in which mass murder attacks just keep on coming. The PA can "condemn" terrorist attacks but to them that is just a little white lie.

This is why Palestinians must find a leader who is not a notorious terrorist. If they refuse to do so, that tells us they really don't want peace -- that the people who say Israel will be destroyed even if it takes another 100 years are still firmly in charge.

[Mediocrates]

Or you could look at it this way. You could say it's either awfully ironic, of almost biblical proportions, or amazingly fortuitous that Israel is the sharp point of the spear in the fight between Islamism and the West and that no peace is possible until radical Islamism is smashed into the dust.

Expansionist, dominant Islamism has been in decline since the Rennaissance in the West and radical Islamism & fundamentalism is the inevitable backlash to that decline. One could make a case that ANY non Islamic culture or country plunked down there would generate more or less the same reaction from the Arab states that by way were patched together in the same helter skelter way of some British Mandarin waving a pointer over a map.

There is absolutely nothing unique or special or traditional or treasured or sacred or holy about ANY borders in the Mid East and SW Asia and all the yawping carping revisionist idiots need to understand that one basic fact.

Just this Myrmidon's opinion. Hand me my spear.

[elke]

I agree with you, Ayesha: prosperity is the key. Once people have something to lose, they think twice (at least) before doing something that has a chance at losing what they have. However, this prosperity cannot come from aid alone. The aid should be nothing more nor less than a leg up.

In the 21st century, the key to prosperity is education. Secular education, I might add. Practical sciences: i.e. chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology, are the life-blood of any modern economy.

While these sciences are not necessarily incompatible with religion per se, they are indeed incompatible with the very concept of fanaticism of any sort. With religious fanaticism, we can see it in the battles for Creationism to be taught in schools, the vitriolic rhetoric spewed out by the mullahs of all denominations against organ transplants, and so on and so forth. With political fanaticism, the time, energy, and human ability that can be spent on improving the lot of the members in the society is instead wasted away on attempts to achieve the unrealistic, and even undesirable, goals. This has got to change, in all societies that aspire to better life for their people!

One positive side effect of the concentration on the sciences rather than religion or other such nebulous subjects, is the necessary commitment to the Scientific Method. As far as I am concerned, the most important development Enlightenment brought to the Western civilization is just that.

Since UN is responsible for the education of the Palestinians, it is inconceivable to me that they haven't figured this out. Like any other people, Palestinians need their doctors, scientists, engineers, and chemists - they shouldn't have to rely on other communities to provide them with these services. There is nothing inherently wrong with their mental capacities, as attested to by the success of many outside. Therefore, this must be the failure of their educational system. Quite apart from the ideological incitement, there is simply inadequate education: not in terms of facts, but rather in terms of the ways and means of acquiring knowledge, and most importantly, critical thinking skills . As far as I am concerned, the most concerted effort at this time should be put on revamping just that .

[victot]

you know how every year there are such events as a TOUR DE FRANCE, a WIMBLEDON, and such and such...
I think if israel and the palestinians could ever make peace, there should be some kind of a yearly event which the whole world watches. like peace day or something, where 10,000,000 million people or something flock to the middle of west bank and israel (?jerusalem?) to celebrate the yearly event...
If something big like that could happen every year, bye-bye economic problems to both israel and the palestinians.
i think such a thing would be great, cuz people love big events, and biblical israel, (?jerusalem? no less) would be a great worldly location for such a gathering, cuz most of the world is thinking of that place on a daily basis anyways.

[elke]

Great idea, Victot! The only problem, of course, is how to assure adequate security from the nuts and flakes at such an event.

[Teacake]

I agree with you, Ayesha: prosperity is the key. Once people have something to lose, they think twice (at least) before doing something that has a chance at losing what they have.

A westen mind thinks this way. Don't forget that more progress was made on the deal with Barak, they were on the brink of statehood and responded with starting a war rather than raising a flag.

Don't forget that all 19 of the 911 attack were university educated and led prosperious lifestyles. They all have a lot to live for and chose to die.

Does anyone really believe that if the pals got a state that all the other terror networks working globally would just clap their hands for joy and give up jihad? Very very doubtful. Israel is the red herring.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide_1.html

[elke]

Well, natural selection also works among civilizations, not just biological entities. It's not accidental that the Western civilization, its faults notwithstanding, is the dominant culture in the world today. Its strength is in its ability to absorb the useful concepts from any other cultures it encounters and treat them with respect.

The Romans were powerful so long as they followed this simple principle of tolerance to others. So were the Arabs - again, so long as they showed at least a modicum of respect to the cultures they ruled. Once this respect eroded, both of these colossi tumbled. Very instructive, studying history. ;)

[Mediocrates]

Prosperity is not the key. It's important but not the key. Radicalism comes from the educated middle class not the poor. What is key is to disavow oneself of the notion of inevitable cultural supremacy and the destiny of nationhood.

They don't exist.

The Palistinians will never get all that they claim they want. Never. That is a 1000% certainty.

The Israelis will never remove them from the WB and Gaza. Never happen. Bank on it.

Stalemate.

Ok what do you do? You settle for what you can live with. I will ask the PA boosters here for the 9th time Is a Free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine. Does that question make you faux Marxists uncomfortable? Haven't figured out meaningless babble PR text you would answer that one with yet? Don't worry I'll keep asking until you do, poseurs. At any rate let's say you lie to me and say "sure we can accept them". How many then? Half of what's there now?, A quarter, all of them? which is it? Do they have to swear an oath to Allah to vote? Are they dhimmi?

And so on. What are your actual criteria for success?

The Palistinians want to move back to Israel. Ok what if that is limited to the first 100,00 people who show up? Does that work for you? What are your actual success critera?

You want Jerusalem? Well isn't that nice. You're not going to get it. Not all of it. You're not going to be allowed to drop rocks on Jews at the Wall. And there will be a huge number of other limitations that modern people living in a modern city have to obey. So get with the program or just rejoin the Bronze Age somewhere else.

Peace is possible if you understand that the purpose of peace is provide an opportunity to do something besides be at war. It's not a cessation of hostilities, it's not an interregnum, a process, a group hug, a PR event or a reason to rearm and saddle up. It's a state or condition of not killing one another most of the time. What you do with it otherwise is largely your problem. And that is a huge problem.

I think the PA knows this: a productive peace is much more difficult to achieve and make something of than an interminable war. War is easy. Aim, fire, repeat. Which is why they are so intent on war.

So, you have to understand what you're willing to live with; a workable agreement or a dream of paradise. Take the first option because life is brutal, unfair and short. Get over it.

[ayesha]

israel's closure policy and restriction of movement

perhaps most harmful to palestinian human, civil and economic rights has been israel's policy of closure, in effect since March 1993 which severely limits palestinians' feedom of movement.

B'Tselem, a leading israeli human rights monitoring organisation states, israel's neglect of the educational, health, economic and ultural infrastructure of the WB and Gaza during more than 35 years o military occupation and rendered palestinians overly dependent on services and resources accessible only within israel or jerusalem. thus, closure constitutes a chillingly effective form of collective punishment, as it brings palestinian economic, medical, and educational life to a virtual halt.

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers. according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by Simon
A good idea in principle.

The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

mmm to an extent ur right simon, but how? any suggestions?

[MGB8]

First, the closures are not curfews (those are different), so places of worship and inter-town things remain open. Food shipments and aid shipments still come.

However, the thing about the closure, while you may find them draconian, they are the most peaceful way of stopping suicide bombers.

And frankly, Israeli LIVES matter more to me than the Palestinian economy.


Originally posted by ayesha
israel's closure policy and restriction of movement

perhaps most harmful to palestinian human, civil and economic rights has been israel's policy of closure, in effect since March 1993 which severely limits palestinians' feedom of movement.

B'Tselem, a leading israeli human rights monitoring organisation states, israel's neglect of the educational, health, economic and ultural infrastructure of the WB and Gaza during more than 35 years o military occupation and rendered palestinians overly dependent on services and resources accessible only within israel or jerusalem. thus, closure constitutes a chillingly effective form of collective punishment, as it brings palestinian economic, medical, and educational life to a virtual halt.

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers. according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Simon
The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Originally posted by ayesha
mmm to an extent ur right simon, but how? any suggestions?

All the parties involved that send money - the US, the UN, Arab states, even Israel - should make any further money contingent on changes to the educational system. Easier said than done. The Arab states have a vested interest in whipping up resentment, for one thing. Removing the hate from the curriculum will leave an obvious, gaping vacuum.

I have heard of joint Jewish/Arab schools. What are the children taught there? How about in schools directly sponsored by foreign entities - I've heard of a German Lutheran school in Bethlehem (one female would-be suicide bomber said she had Israeli friends from that school).

[Jorge]

To Mediocrates:
Quote from your post# 12

Ok what do you do? You settle for what you can live with. I will ask the PA boosters here for the 9th time Is a Free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine. Does that question make you faux Marxists uncomfortable? Haven't figured out meaningless babble PR text you would answer that one with yet? Don't worry I'll keep asking until you do, poseurs. At any rate let's say you lie to me and say "sure we can accept them". How many then? Half of what's there now?, A quarter, all of them? which is it?

Since you seem so bent on receiving an answer about whether or not Jews will be allowed to live inside a Palestinian State, so that, as you say , you'll keep asking the same question over and over, I'll give you my modest opinion on the subject. I'm not sure my answer will put your mind at rest because you require an answer from the "faux Marxists" and I'm not one of them. I'm not even sure what a "faux Marxist" could be. Nowadays it's pretty hard to be a true or real Marxist; that someone could choose to pretend to be a Marxist, a Marxist "in disguise" so to speak, is beyond my comprehension.

I would say that the answer to your question is clearly: No. Not at least in the intermediate period of a peace process. In the distant future, when we achieve an state of real peace with the palestinians (and even an optimist like myself understands that it's going to take a long time) this will be possible as will be the reverse situation of palestinians wanting to settle in Israel. In the meantime, not a chance; allow me explain you why, in my opinion, it's a no-go situation.
The present state of affairs is such that to keep settlers in their settlements, we need about three quarters of the israeli army( in some places the rate is about 5 soldiers for every settler). Not only that but we had to build and keep on building special roads that do not go near arab villages or towns to communicate those settlements with Israel proper. Not only that, but palestinian traffic is not allowed in those roads and, in these same weeks, not in any road. In spite of all these efforts, we have not been able to prevent murderous attacks on settlers and not even to decrease their frequency. It's unreasonable to expect that a
palestinian police could do a better job than the mighty Israeli army.
An hypothetical, newly born, Palestinian State could not have the resources and the military might to do a better or equal job than Israel in guaranteeing the safety of Jewish settlers. Even if they wanted to, the effort would drain the state coffers in a few weeks. You wouldn't expect them to declare some roads
out of bound for palestinians, would you?

I assume that you understand that the mere creation of a Palestinian State can not make Hamas and Islamic Jihad and other such groups to evaporate by miraclein thin air. Terror may be contained but it's not likely to stop entirely. So why should the palestinians take upon themselves the extraneous task of guaranteeing the safety of the settlers?. According to their views they have no reason to be there anyway; if Israel had devoted the economic resources dedicated to settlements in the territories to investments in infrastructure, education,etc. this would have been a far prosperous country; do you expect from the palestinians to continue israeli policy regarding the settlements?
quote:

The Palistinians will never get all that they claim they want. Never. That is a 1000% certainty.
OK, fair enough! That's the whole idea of peace negotiations. They will have to accept that some dreams will have to be abandoned. But some of our dreams will have to be abandoned too and one of them is that of Jewish settlers colonizing the West Bank and Gaza.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
How about in schools directly sponsored by foreign entities - I've heard of a German Lutheran school in Bethlehem (one female would-be suicide bomber said she had Israeli friends from that school). Horrible idea, really. Nothing promotes slobbering self-pity better than such schools :eek: :mad: :rolleyes:


Here is a story on the head of a similar school in Beit Djallah - in German: http://www.n-tv.de/3054704.html (in German, sorry - I can post a summary if anyone is interested). The guy who blew himself up in a falafel stand in Jerusalem has visited it.

The head of the school, Wilhelm Goller, has been a constant media fixture in Germany for years, hugging Arafat, sobbing about the poor little things entrusted to him and sometimes even parading them as such for public benefit - a sickening sight.

I have suggested in another thread that one of best things that could happen to the Palestinians would be to chuck out their concerned Western "friends", and I can only repeat it - maybe without them the Palestinians would be able to take more responsibility for themselves and their actions. Being more or less forced into a perpetual "we unfortunate, desperate victims" show (since this is the only role the Palestinians seem to be acceptable to their friends and supporters) can hardly help to create a stable situation.

[Mediocrates]

I would say that the answer to your question is clearly: No.


Thanks. My question was not about the logistics of protecting them. It was about the inclination of giving the Palestinians what they want and seeing if they are actually capable of having a modern society and not a tribe or a clan. Clearly we agree on this and it is not whether it is practical or not but simply because it is impossible.

And the answer only reinforces why there is a critical need to never back down. Because in plain terms there is no possibility of Jews living as a minority among Palestinians or any other arabs w/o them being killed or enslaved. Period. That is really the most basic issue over which all of this other noise floats. That is the one irrefutable truth as sure as gravity.

This is why Israel has to apply as much pressure as possible now to set the stage for future 'negiotiations and gain as much as they can, by force right now. The only way to bring the Palestinians to the table at all is to be a cruel hammer and to pound them down until even they see there is absolutely no alternative.

And when that happens we all know, all of us do, the Israelis, the arabs the Americans, the Europeans, all, understand that even that won't be a real negotiation. It will be Israel on one side of the table and Arafat on the other and the Israelis will be talking about what kind of terms Arafat would be willing to accept for an Israeli strategic withdrawal from Yesha. It will be completely one sided on that issue and everyone knows that. And they won't even get a thank you for their trouble.

In fact I challenge all the apologists here to continue to defend and kneel at the boots of Arafat after the Israeli suburbs are evacuated and still Arafat prances and shakes his fist for the next wave of assassinations against Jews. I'm sure some of them here will be comforted by that too.

But - what the Israelis will not back down from is the surrender of Jerusalem and arab ingathering. Those will never happen. By that time much of the Palestinian population will be poor and under the age of 15 that one would think they'll more pressing things to worry about than killing Jews.

So in the end it's never really been about how many Jews live in Yesha. 200,000? more?less? It doesn't matter, those are differences of procedure. The true number has always been ZERO. And all the peaceful peaceloving people of peace know that in their hearts. All the mea culpeas and handwringing about fairness and brotherhood and peace and justice and equality and 'due' are just worthless empty ******** animal noises when push comes to shove. For them, whatever their motivation, it's always been about being present at the end of Israel. And no one will ever convince me that is not the case. Ever.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean
How about in schools directly sponsored by foreign entities - I've heard of a German Lutheran school in Bethlehem (one female would-be suicide bomber said she had Israeli friends from that school).


What we have to face is that very soon the time for intervention will be pointless. We could add this to the list of things the Palestinians are unable or unwilling to do. But why? What possible outcome could there be by letting them slide on this too.

Can anyone say 'ennabler'?

Either they have the faintest idea what being a country is or they don't. Let them run their schools, let them reinvent themselves let them teach a brand new instant mythology. Who. ****ing. Cares? As long as they don't slither into Israel to mow down people who really cares what they think of themselves?

With freedom comes responsibility. If they demonstrate that they are incapable of teaching their own not to hate and kill and maim then I honestly can't imagine how someone else could do that for them. Do you?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ayesha
It's interesting to read your views in this thread, although I'm a Lebanese woman and not sure I'm welcome here.
Of course you are welcome here.

We have been fortunate to have opinions discussed from many different points of view, which benefits us all.

I think that word is Marhaba, welcome, Ayesha.

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic
Horrible idea, really. Nothing promotes slobbering self-pity better than such schools

Here is a story on the head of a similar school in Beit Djallah - in German: http://www.n-tv.de/3054704.html (in German, sorry - I can post a summary if anyone is interested). The guy who blew himself up in a falafel stand in Jerusalem has visited it.


I know my German is rusty, but if I understood the article correctly, this is a missionary school for the Palestinian Christians, not exactly the type of thing that Cerulean was referring to.

Also, did I understand it right? Does the main thrust of the article seem to be the concern "what will people think" about the school, because of the suicide murderer who went there? If so, I find it totally disgusting and pathetic! :eek: :confused:

(if not, I apologize for the inference and pledge to learn more German) :o

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
I know my German is rusty, but if I understood the article correctly, this is a missionary school for the Palestinian Christians, not exactly the type of thing that Cerulean was referring to.

Also, did I understand it right? Does the main thrust of the article seem to be the concern "what will people think" about the school, because of the suicide murderer who went there? If so, I find it totally disgusting and pathetic!

(if not, I apologize for the inference and pledge to learn more German) Oh, sorry, I should have explained the details :o

The article is from "n-tv", a German news TV company affiliated with CNN, as such it offers mostly reporting with few explicitly stated opinions. (In case someone is interested to find out more, try, for example, "Wilhelm Goller" and "schule" - or "school", but there is less in English on it - in Google).

The school is financed by a Berliner Missionswerk (a loose translation: "Berlin Mission"), but such Missionswerke (sometimes called Diakonisches Werk or Diakoniemission) are general charity spin-offs of the Evangelical Church in Germany. They are AFAIK heavily subsidized by the state and as such not specifically dedicated to proselytizing, despite the name (besides, the school is located in a predominantly Christian neigborhood, isn't it?). I don't know exactly what school Cerulean is referring to, but it sounds rather similar.

Here is the homepage (http://www.berliner-missionswerk.de) of it, btw. They take great pains to explain their moral perfection in poetic detail.

My point was a different one: the role that charitable Westerners play in the education of Palestinian children to permanent victimhood. Goller's "contribution" in this respect is very similar to that of El-Sarraj as we have discussed elsewhere (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16428#post16428).

Yes, he finds no fault with himself or his school, your German isn't as bad as you claim :) . He isn't going to attempt any self-examination, having washed his hands of any responsibility in front of the media.

The article quotes a press release of the Berliner Missionswerk praising the school's success in the "education for peace". Proof of this is the fact that there have been contacts with children from a school in Tel Aviv, fact even the German President found so sensational that he met with the schoolchildren, "who try to build human contacts despite the depply rooted hatred between their people" himself :rolleyes: - just a sample of the sentimental unquestioningly sanctimonous tone they use.

Of course, the institution has not the least doubts on why the attack has happened at all: it is "a desperate act of a solitary perpetrator" ("Verzweiflungstat eines Einzelnen"). The "n-tv" article comments it with the remark that it was hardly possible for the boy to build the explosive belt etc. all on his own, but it doesn't question the crucial point: the presumtion about the motivation. How exactly do they know about the "despair"? Didn't they notice it? Or did they themselves educate him to it? Critical self-examination is unlikely to take place, so much can be sure - it's the bad Zionists, period.

Not that they didn't have good reason to do so before. The article also mentions a boy from the same school (its vocational training branch) getting himself killed while trying to plant a bomb aimed at Israelis. This was two years ago.

Take a look at a report on the school on the homepage of the largest German state TV station under the title "The word 'Palestine' was enough to be put into prison" (http://www.heute.t-online.de/ZDFheute/artikel/0,1367,HOME-0-9914,00.html) too, just to get the "feeling".

I wonder what goes on in the heads of those in charge. They must be sleepwalking. Or maybe all of itwould be a good case study in (post?)colonialist mentality put into practice with deadly consequences.

P.S.: Take a look at the Middle East (http://www.ekibb.com/mission/ausland/nahost.htm) page of the German charity too. They run a lot of schools for Palestinians, one of them in Bethlehem. The sole villain, again, is known in advance.

And here is a reprint (http://www.freunde-palaestinas.de/page/nachrichten/pn42/panzer.htm) of a sobbing article by Wilhelm Goller, the head of the school that appeared in a major conservative German newspaper on March 12, 2002. Israel soldiers are conducting arrests right in front of his school, imagine... He doesn't dwell on the causes for a second.

[cerulean]

Horrible idea, really. Nothing promotes slobbering self-pity better than such schools.

Sorry - temporary fit of insanity thinking European donors could actually do something helpful :( .

It's possible that the school you describe was the one I was thinking of in the first instance, but I had the location wrong. I don't know how prevalent such schools are.

I'd be curious what types of schools the wealthiest Arab students attend. I suppose those are probably just as propagandized as those for less wealthy students, however.

[Mediocrates]

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families,

That is the effect, not the cause.

who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers.

The key is 'find themselves'. What does Arafat say? "let them eat cake" (or couscous)?

according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

Most of which they will never get back even if the Israelis swung the door wide open. Because most of that income was labor which has been replaced. But even if some/most of that labor is allowed back in the Israelis will have to pay them less because of their own deflationary pressures.

I see this as pointing indirectly at the heart of the problem. Which is the Palestinians want everything to be just as they demand, sometimes what they demand is the way things used to be. But in the real world that never happens, it's delusional to think so.

What do you think would be a practical response of the Palestinians could not get that labor income back again, ever? A War of Economic Liberation?

[Simon]

Mediocrates: But even if some/most of that labor is allowed back in the Israelis

Why even allow them in? I never really understood why (in the past) Israel allowed these Palestinians to work in Israel.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Simon
Mediocrates: But even if some/most of that labor is allowed back in the Israelis

Why even allow them in? I never really understood why (in the past) Israel allowed these Palestinians to work in Israel.

It's cheap labor, no other reason. This is what's bizarre. The Israelis have allowed the Palestinians to work in Israel for years at wages that afford them a functional standard of living. I'm sure someone will scold me and tell me that their standard of living was lower than that of Israelis....so what. That's what cheap labor does. Unlike clicking their ruby shoes together three times this was for them a workable deal. That utter failure and desolation for them is better than slow incremental success speaks volumes about the credibility of anything they say.

[American Inca]

Originally posted by Simon
I never really understood why (in the past) Israel allowed these Palestinians to work in Israel.

Because Israel kicked out the Palestinians in 1948 and murdered thousands which then took flight to the West Bank where millions remained in refugee camps. The Palestinians needed to sustain themselves somehow. The Israelis then took the Palestinians by the neck with the financial yoke to do their menial labor. All so called "democracies" need their low cost, low wage laborers, Israel is no exception. They needed the low cost labor of the Palestinians to keep their financial engine sound. The United States allows Mexican illegals from entering this country, same rule applies in Israel.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by American
Because Israel kicked out the Palestinians in 1948 and murdered thousands which then took flight to the West Bank where millions remained in refugee camps...

I love it when people who represent the exact opposite of what real Americans know to be the truth and what America stands for, still like to name themselves "American" this or the other.

Anyway, your statement is a ridiculous Arab propaganda smear, directly out of Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar's "revised" history books, as close to reality as Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights.

You know very well that the Arabs themselves commanded their brothers to flee from Israel so that the invading Arab armies could more conveniently carry out a Jihad-genocide of the Jews.

You also know that the "refugee" claim is another Arab propaganda invention aimed at insulting the intelligence of Westerners. There are no Arab "refugees," just Arabs reuniting with their brothers in their Arab homelands in places like Lebanon and in the first Palestinian state of Jordan.

[Vic]

Originally posted by ayesha
israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administrationThere is something schizophrenic when a considerable proportion of Palestinians (apparently) supports mass murder of Israeli Jews in order to get them out of the country and at the same time expects that the very same Israeli Jews provide employment, medical care etc. for the Palestinians, don't you think so too?

[Adversary2Arabs]

Peace is only possible when the Arabs are secluded in an area of the world where ONLY Arabs can go, and the rest of the world is free from Arabs. Otherwise they will continue their lust and greed for non-Arab controlled lands. Israel and India are just two examples of lands being stolen and then pilliaged at the hands of the Arabs the so called people of peace. OR they are killed off, which isn't going to happen. :(

[Mr. Pumps]

The situation around the world is STUPID!.

It seems armies are allowing the little agressor to make head way agianst all odds because the leaders of the armed forces does'nt want the Army to look bad infront of the "International community." So instead of being ended immediately and the enemy defeated, like a Army is suppose to do, the conflict drags and drags and drags.

What does that accomplish? NOTHING!.

Only decisive and forthright action is needed to break this status quo cycle over the last 22 month deadlock. The same for Chechnya, Kashmir, Abu sayyaf and so on.

Quick and decisive acton that keeps going, so momentum never gives out.

[American Inca]

Not really. No "Arab propaganda smear" I tell you fully documented incidences that the Zionist movements from 1948 and beyond perpetrated on the civilian populations of Palestine Arabs. If anything, the U.S. media has been complicit in covering the tracks of Israeli/Jewish terrorism attacks on the Palestinians, here are a few fully documented incidences that you can verify by going to google and doing a search for yourselves:

1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

These attacks made by Jewish terrorists like the Stern Gang later graduated to state sponsored terrorism when the Jewish gangs were integrated into the IDF. If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media.

As you can see by the dates, this was well before the "Suicide bombers" of today and were actually the oppressive acts that gave birth to Arab terrorism. You reap what you sow.

Originally posted by NewsGuy


I love it when people who represent the exact opposite of what real Americans know to be the truth and what America stands for, still like to name themselves "American" this or the other.

Anyway, your statement is a ridiculous Arab propaganda smear, directly out of Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar's "revised" history books, as close to reality as Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights.

You know very well that the Arabs themselves commanded their brothers to flee from Israel so that the invading Arab armies could more conveniently carry out a Jihad-genocide of the Jews.

You also know that the "refugee" claim is another Arab propaganda invention aimed at insulting the intelligence of Westerners. There are no Arab "refugees," just Arabs reuniting with their brothers in their Arab homelands in places like Lebanon and in the first Palestinian state of Jordan.

[elke]

And your sources are?...

[rhodescholar]

"Not really. No "Arab propaganda smear" I tell you fully documented incidences that the Zionist movements from 1948 and beyond.."

1) As you are clearly not bright, nor accompanied by facts, let me help you a little. In 1916 there was a massacre of jews by arabs in the British Mandate. Thene there was another one in 1921, and another one in 1929, and another series of them from 1936-1939 during what was called the Arab Uprising.

2) an orgainzation was created In 1922 in Egypt called the Muslim Brotherhood, which was the first arab terrorist group. They were responsible fro many, many murders, until finally they were put down hard - using methods the arabs would be outraged if they saw them applied by israel - by the current egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak.

3) All of the items you mention, many of which are simply names of places like "Gaza 1956", which are of course meaningless, took place DECADES AFTER the arab progroms against jews in what would become israel.

4) since u are a clear anti-semite, cna you even define for us what zionism is?

Please do further research before making a fool of yourself again.

"If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media."

What media is that, friend? The same media that ignores 2 million murdered christians in the sudan in the last 5 years but somehow, magically controlled by jews, would keep a relatively minor conflict directly in the front headlines year after year? Think for a change, friend, if the jews controlled the media, why would the other 35 ongoing civil wars around the world right now get barely a mention, while jews controlling the media KEEP this pal/israle conflict in the headlines?

Notice how then this crushes the other lie i am sure you like to propagate, where the israelis are ethnically cleansing the pals out of their country right? If this was so, and the jews controlled the media, why would they be allowing the press to focus on this conflict day after day? Wouldnt they suppress it, so you never hear about it?

"As you can see by the dates, this was well before the "Suicide bombers" of today and were actually the oppressive acts that gave birth to Arab terrorism. You reap what you sow."]

LOL. Read above, friend. The arabs taught the world anti-semitism, and are now trying to teach everyone terrorism. And they became experts at it DECADES BEFORE israle was founded in 1948.

Dont you just hate the facts?

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by American
the U.S. media has been complicit in covering the tracks of Israeli/Jewish terrorism attacks


Not to mention that whole Christ killing thing back in '33....

[American Inca]

To criticize Israel is not being anti-Semitic. That is what we are lead to believe by the powerful Jewish lobbies all over the world. We must stand up to the repressive methods and racist nature of Zionism. Zionism is equivalent to South African Apartheid and was condemned in the conference on racism in Durban South Africa last year. If anything, the European Jews that took control of Palestine by force, murder and deceptive tactics are the true anti-Semites because the Arab people are the seed of Abraham as well whereas the European Jewry that occupies and controls Palestine have not connection, historical or otherwise to that area of the world. Plain and simple, even some sects of Judaism condemn Zionism. Even Albert Einstein was against it.

Originally posted by rhodescholar
"Not really. No "Arab propaganda smear" I tell you fully documented incidences that the Zionist movements from 1948 and beyond.."

1) As you are clearly not bright, nor accompanied by facts, let me help you a little. In 1916 there was a massacre of jews by arabs in the British Mandate. Thene there was another one in 1921, and another one in 1929, and another series of them from 1936-1939 during what was called the Arab Uprising.

2) an orgainzation was created In 1922 in Egypt called the Muslim Brotherhood, which was the first arab terrorist group. They were responsible fro many, many murders, until finally they were put down hard - using methods the arabs would be outraged if they saw them applied by israel - by the current egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak.

3) All of the items you mention, many of which are simply names of places like "Gaza 1956", which are of course meaningless, took place DECADES AFTER the arab progroms against jews in what would become israel.

4) since u are a clear anti-semite, cna you even define for us what zionism is?

Please do further research before making a fool of yourself again.

"If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media."

What media is that, friend? The same media that ignores 2 million murdered christians in the sudan in the last 5 years but somehow, magically controlled by jews, would keep a relatively minor conflict directly in the front headlines year after year? Think for a change, friend, if the jews controlled the media, why would the other 35 ongoing civil wars around the world right now get barely a mention, while jews controlling the media KEEP this pal/israle conflict in the headlines?

Notice how then this crushes the other lie i am sure you like to propagate, where the israelis are ethnically cleansing the pals out of their country right? If this was so, and the jews controlled the media, why would they be allowing the press to focus on this conflict day after day? Wouldnt they suppress it, so you never hear about it?

"As you can see by the dates, this was well before the "Suicide bombers" of today and were actually the oppressive acts that gave birth to Arab terrorism. You reap what you sow."]

LOL. Read above, friend. The arabs taught the world anti-semitism, and are now trying to teach everyone terrorism. And they became experts at it DECADES BEFORE israle was founded in 1948.

Dont you just hate the facts?

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by American
To criticize Israel is not being anti-Semitic. That is what we are lead to believe by the powerful Jewish lobbies all over the world. We must stand up to the repressive methods and racist nature of Zionism. Zionism is equivalent to South African Apartheid and was condemned in the conference on racism in Durban South Africa last year. If anything, the European Jews that took control of Palestine by force, murder and deceptive tactics are the true anti-Semites because the Arab people are the seed of Abraham as well whereas the European Jewry that occupies and controls Palestine have not connection, historical or otherwise to that area of the world.

ok we've all had a chuckle but this is borderline clinical paranoia.

yeah, it is.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mediocrates


ok we've all had a chuckle but this is borderline clinical paranoia.

yeah, it is.

Which electronicintifadah clone do you think s/he swiped all this from? Or was it from the real article?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by elke


Which electronicintifadah clone do you think s/he swiped all this from? Or was it from the real article?

sounds like the home grown american storm front variety

[American Inca]

What do you question? I think I can provide some articles to back up what I'm saying.

Originally posted by elke


Which electronicintifadah clone do you think s/he swiped all this from? Or was it from the real article?

[elke]

Originally posted by American
What do you question? I think I can provide some articles to back up what I'm saying.



All of it.

[American Inca]

Up to 10,000 demonstrators chanted anti-Israeli and anti-U.S. slogans as they marched through the centre of Durban on Friday. Reuters reported scuffles when armed police stopped them from delivering petitions to the racism conference.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/31/racism.talks/

That's an account from the mainstream press, there are others from independent sources that say the same thing. 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, but you MUST realize that you are being lied to by the Israeli and U.S. government and their obedient media shills.

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by American
To criticize Israel is not being anti-Semitic. That is what we are lead to believe by the powerful Jewish lobbies all over the world. We must stand up to the repressive methods and racist nature of Zionism. Zionism is equivalent to South African Apartheid and was condemned in the conference on racism in Durban South Africa last year. If anything, the European Jews that took control of Palestine by force, murder and deceptive tactics are the true anti-Semites because the Arab people are the seed of Abraham as well whereas the European Jewry that occupies and controls Palestine have not connection, historical or otherwise to that area of the world. Plain and simple, even some sects of Judaism condemn Zionism. Even Albert Einstein was against it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

#1 - If you want to establish ANY credibility here, you respond DIRECTLY to the points made, not sidestep/ignore them and hope they wont matter. You lost many points already.

#2 - referring to the Durban fiasco shows either you really arent intelligent, or are badly misinformed. The UN itself has spent considerable efforts to prevent a debacle like that from EVER happening again. Read Mary robinson's apologies to the Jewish people and to the West in general for the disgraceful, disgusting and despicable hijacking of the conference by the arabs in their racism and hatred of all others.

Until you address the points i made above in this post, as well as my other one directed at you, i will consider you a pure anti-semite and fool. I urge all others to ignore this apparent TROLL who shows all signs of coming here merely to stir the pot and offer nothing of substance or value.

[elke]

Originally posted by American


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/31/racism.talks/

That's an account from the mainstream press, there are others from independent sources that say the same thing. 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, but you MUST realize that you are being lied to by the Israeli and U.S. government and their obedient media shills.

And your point is...?

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by American


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/31/racism.talks/

That's an account from the mainstream press, there are others from independent sources that say the same thing. 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, but you MUST realize that you are being lied to by the Israeli and U.S. government and their obedient media shills.

This conference was a travesty, and the fact that the Un has struggled mightily to promise Western governemnts that they will NEVER again allow Arabs, either thru NGOs or official channels, to hijack a conference or function again. If you knew what u were tlaking about, which u obviously dont, u would know that:

-several countries besides the US, including Britain, Canada, Australia, and Sweden threatened to walk out if the arabs were not brought under control
-there were thousands of anti-semitic racist arabs there shipped in by arab nations to assault and threaten anyone, including college students, who even looked jewish

Stop wasting our time with your lies and arab propaganda, its easily dispelled and destroys your already thin credibility.

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by American


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/31/racism.talks/

That's an account from the mainstream press, there are others from independent sources that say the same thing. 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, but you MUST realize that you are being lied to by the Israeli and U.S. government and their obedient media shills.

Another brilliant move by posting this article. Let me show everyone here some quotes from it, that absolutely undermine your points:

"The United States and Canada have only sent
low-level delegations because of strongly
anti-Israeli language in the draft declaration that
followed weeks of haggling between diplomats
in Geneva. "

Uhhhhhh, sounds like this conference is what many people might call. a set-up.

"Up to 10,000 demonstrators chanted anti-Israeli and anti-U.S. slogans as they
marched through the centre of Durban on Friday. Reuters reported scuffles
when armed police stopped them from delivering petitions to the racism
conference.

The draft declaration does not equate Zionism with racism but it says: "Foreign
occupation founded on settlements ... (is) a new kind of apartheid, a crime
against humanity."

Arafat told a panel meeting of leaders: "This brutality and arrogance are moved
by a mentality of superiority that practises racism and racial discrimination, that
adopts ethnic cleansing. "

10,000 demonstators? like the ones Saddam forces at gunpoint to flow into the Baghdad squares, or in Iran who are paid to be there?

And i guess you are not aware of Arafat, one of the great mass murderes of the 20th centruy, magically remade thru arab propaganda into a "freedom fighter," after being expelled by Hafez Assad in Syria, ran into Lebanon and began killing/tormenting that country's population, starting a civil war. When arafat was in lebanon in the 1970s his animal thugs required tolls by the lebanese for passage from one village to the next, demanded "protection" payments, and killed any who oppsed their coutnry within a country. But none of this is of interest to the arab liars, propagandists, or antisemites like yourself - BECASUE THE FACTS NEVER ARE.

And the fact that none of the anti-semites like yourself, who seem so intent on israel's "occupation", which is none of the sort given they won the land in a DEFENSIVE WAR, but mention nothingof the illegal Syrian occupation of Lebanon.

UN resolution 520 calls for the exit of Syria from Lebanon, in 1989. Why dont u mention that? i thought u "cared" about oppressed people?

[American Inca]

What we have to do first is establish that I am only advocating the peaceful desolation of the Israeli state and not eliminating Jews from the face of the earth. Any and all people have the right to practice whatever faith they want if it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. To create a "Jewish" only state impinges on the rights of those that the state displaced and is therefore at the root of the problems in Palestine. It's surprising that Israel was created for the safety of the Jewish people yet Jews live prosperous and safe lives outside Israel. In fact, the Israeli government has little regard for the safety of Jewish people because it puts them in harms way in the "settlements" which are contested lands and are practically a war zone. If the Israeli government really cared about Jewish safety, they would evacuate ALL of the illegal settlements and end their barbaric occupation of the Palestinians. Because the settlers are nothing more than pawns in this whole conflict just goes to show that the Israeli government has little regard for its own people.

Before the Zionist gained control of Palestine, Jews and Arabs lived in this area side by side for hundreds of years. As the Zionist state was forming, even Jews of Arab decent where expelled from their homes along with Muslims and Christians. The new colonial state of Israel was founded mostly by Eastern European Jews that had little regard for the people of the area.

As to the person asking for sources, I challenge you NOT to take my word for it and do some research on your own. Some of the most outspoken critics of Zionism are Jews! Not some electronic "Intifada" like you are trying to trivialize. Here's a few key words to start digging into the suppressed past of Israel:

"Stern Gang"
"U.S.S. Liberty"
"Evils of Zionism"
"Jewish terrorism"

There are thousands of articles, some by what you consider "credible" news sources and writers and some that you may question, but the all say the same thing.

In my research, I have found one online book a good starting point; that would be the book by Jewish writer Ralph Schoenman, you can read it here:

The Hidden History of Zionism (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/index.htm)

[American Inca]

Jewish Criticism
of Zionism


"Albert Einstein - "'I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish State. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish State,with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain'...

"Professor Erich Fromm, a noted Jewish writer and thinker, [stated]...'In general international law, the principle holds true that no citizen loses his property or his rights of citizenship; and the citizenship right is de facto a right to which the Arabs in Israel have much more legitimacy than the Jews. Just because the Arabs fled? Since when is that punishable by confiscation of property, and by being barred from returning to the land on which a people's forefathers have lived for generations? Thus, the claim of the Jews to the land of Israel cannot be a realistic claim. If all nations would suddenly claim territory in which their forefathers had lived two thousand years ago, this world would be a madhouse...I believe that, politically speaking, there is only one solution for Israel, namely, the unilateral acknowledgement of the obligation of the State towards the Arabs - not to use it as a bargaining point, but to acknowledge the complete moral obligation of the Israeli State to its former inhabitants of Palestine'...

"Martin Buber - 'Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of causeless hatred...It is bound to bring complete ruin upon us. Only then will the old and young in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought here from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruits of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather; and in whose cities that we robbed we put up houses of education, charity, and prayer, while we babble and rave about being the "People of the Book" and the "light of the nations"'...

"In an article published in the Washington Post of 3 October 1978, Rabbi Hirsch (of Jerusalem) is reported to have declared: 'The 12th principle of our faith, I believe, is that the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiled who are dispersed throughout the nations of the world. Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism. Zionism wishes to define the Jewish people as a nationalistic entity. The Zionists say, in effect, 'Look here, God. We do not like exile. Take us back, and if you don't, we'll just roll up our sleeves and take ourselves back.' 'The Rabbi continues: 'This, of course, is heresy. The Jewish people are charged by Divine oath not to force themselves back to the Holy Land against the wishes of those residing there.'" Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
Jewish Criticism - continued

"A Jewish Home in Palestine built up on bayonets and oppression [is] not worth having, even though it succeed, whereas the very attempt to build it up peacefully, cooperatively, with understanding, education, and good will, [is] worth a great deal even though the attempt should fail." Rabbi Judah L. Magnes, first president of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, quoted in "Like All The Nations?", ed. Brinner & Rischin.
Martin Buber on what Zionism should have been

"The first fact is that at the time when we entered into an alliance (an alliance, I admit, that was not well defined) with a European state and we provided that state with a claim to rule over Palestine, we made no attempt to reach an agreement with the Arabs of this land regarding the basis and conditions for the continuation of Jewish settlement.

This negative approach caused those Arabs who thought about and were concerned about the future of their people to see us increasingly not as a group which desired to live in cooperation with their people but as something in the nature of uninvited guests and agents of foreign interests (at the time I explicitly pointed out this fact).

"The second fact is that we took hold of the key economic positions in the country without compensating the Arab population, that is to say without allowing their capital and their labor a share in our economic activity. Paying the large landowners for purchases made or paying compensation to tenants on the land is not the same as compensating a people. As a result, many of the more thoughtful Arabs viewed the advance of Jewish settlement as a kind of plot designed to dispossess future generations of their people of the land necessary for their existence and development. Only by means of a comprehensive and vigorous economic policy aimed at organizing and developing common interests would it have been possible to contend with this view and its inevitable consequences. This we did not do.

"The third fact is that when a possibility arose that the Mandate would soon be terminated, not only did we not propose to the Arab population of the country that a joint Jewish Arab administration be set up in its place, we went ahead and demanded rule over the whole country (the Biltmore program) as a fitting political sequel to the gains we had already made. By this step, we with our own hands provided our enemies in the Arab camp with aid and comfort of the most valuable sort - the support of public opinion - without which the military attack launched against us would not have been possible. For it now appears to the Arab populace that in carrying on the activities we have been engaged in for years, in acquiring land and in working and developing the land, we were systematically laying the ground work for gaining control of the whole country." Martin Buber, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr

Israel's new historians now refute myths of the founding of the state

"Since the 1980's,.....Israeli scholars [have] concurred with their Palestinian counterparts that Zionism was...carried out as a pure colonialist act against the local population: a mixture of exploitation and expropriation...

"They were motivated to present a revisionist point of view to a large extent by the declassification of relevant archival material in Israel, Britain and the United States. [For example,]...
Challenging the Myth of Annihilation - The new historiographical picture is a fundamental challenge to the official history that says the Jewish community faced possible annihilation on the eve of the 1948 war. Archival documents expose a fragmented Arab world wrought by dismay and confusion and a Palestinian community that possessed no military ability with which to frighten the Jews...

Israel's responsibility for Refugees - The Jewish military advantage was translated into an act of mass expulsion of more than half of the Palestinian population. The Israeli forces, apart from rare exceptions, expelled the Palestinians from every village and town they occupied. In some cases, this expulsion was accompanied by massacres [of civilians] as was the case in Lydda, Ramleh, Dawimiyya, Sa'sa, Ein Zietun and other places. Expulsion also was accompanied by rape, looting and confiscation [of Palestinian land and property]...

The Myth of Arab Intransigence - [The U.N.] convened a peace conference in Lausanne, Switzerland in the spring of 1949. Before the conference, the U.N. General Assembly adopted a resolution that in effect replaced the November 1947 partition resolution. This new resolution, Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948, accepted [U.N. Mediator] Bernadotte's triangular basis for a comprehensive peace: an unconditional return of all the refugees to their homes, the internationalization of Jerusalem, and the partitioning of Palestine into two states. This time, several Arab states and various representatives of the Palestinians accepted this as a basis for negotiations, as did the United States, which was running the show at Lausanne...Prime Minister David Ben Gurion strongly opposed any peace negotiations along these lines...The only reason he was willing to allow Israel to participate in the peace conference was his fear of an angry American reaction...The road to peace was not taken due to Israeli, not Arab, intransigence.

Conclusions - The new Israeli historians...wish to rectify what their research reveals as past evils...There was a high price exacted in creating a Jewish state in Palestine. And there were victims, the plight of whom still fuels the fire of conflict in Palestine." Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe in "The Link", January, 1998.

"It is no longer my country"

"For me, this business called the state of Israel is finished...I can't bear to see it anymore, the injustice that is done to the Arabs, to the Beduins. All kinds of scum coming from America and as soon as they get off the plane taking over lands in the territories and claiming it for their own...I can't do anything to change it. I can only go away and let the whole lot go to hell without me." Israeli actress (and household name) Rivka Mitchell, quoted in Israeli peace movement periodical, "The Other Israel", August 1998.

The effect of Zionism on American Jews.

"The corruption of Judaism, as a religion of universal values, through its politicization by Zionism and by the replacement of dedication to Israel for dedication to God and the moral law, is what has alienated so many young Americans who, searching for spiritual meaning in life, have found little in the organized Jewish community." Allan Brownfield, "Issues of the American Council for Judaism", Sp

[rhodescholar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by American
[B]It's surprising that Israel was created for the safety of the Jewish people yet Jews live prosperous and safe lives outside Israel.

Given the FACt that you cant stop lying, I will no longer read nor respond to your posts. "Proserous and safe"? Ever heard of the Holocaust moron?

"Before the Zionist gained control of Palestine, "

Another LIE. Buy a history book genius, the UN CREATED israel in a 1947 vote.

"Jews and Arabs lived in this area side by side for hundreds of years. "

Stop lying and read my posts. I stated many pogroms carried out by arabs from 1900 forward.

"The new colonial state of Israel was founded mostly by Eastern European Jews that had little regard for the people of the area."

Another lie. There has been a jewish presence in israel for thousands of years, long before anyone else was there. Second, until arabs began to move in to take advantage of the burgeoning jewish presence turn of the 20th century, only nomadic arab tribes - few and far between - were there.

"As to the person asking for sources, I challenge you NOT to take my word for it"

Who would?

"and do some research on your own."

You should talk.

"U.S.S. Liberty"

I know everything there is to know about it. Sorry History Channel historian, there is no conspiray there, much as u Stormfront trash would like to believe.

"There are thousands of articles,"

Written by fellow jew haters like yourself.

"In my research,"

You wouldnt know what research is if it landed on you.

AND AGAIN, YOU AVOID ALL THE POINTS I MAKE IN MY POSTS. I WONDER WHY LOL.

[American Inca]

Hear the accounts from the sailors on the U.S.S. Liberty, they WERE there, you weren't. These brave men set up a memorial website where you can hear, in their own words, what really happened on the U.S.S. Liberty:

http://www.ussliberty.org

[American Inca]

Written by fellow jew haters like yourself.

I'm not a "Jew hater." I think that the only way for peace in Palestine is the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel. The U.N. created this monster in 1947 and I'm sure with enough pressure, it can undo most, if not all of the damage. If we can bomb Saddam for not abiding by U.N. resolutions, then why are we so powerless when it comes to Israel.

I have no hate in my heart for Jewish people, I'm just giving them a warning, don't tune out what most of the world is telling you. By not hearing and heeding the warnings given, you are creating anti-Semitism that will inevitably end in something horrible for the Jews as a race. By going against the will of G-d, you are creating your own hell. G-d has promised to deliver the "chosen" people only when he is ready. The creation of Israel was a perversion and a sin in the eyes of G-d and will be punished accordingly. Heed the warnings.

[Formula]

Originally posted by American


I'm not a "Jew hater." I think that the only way for peace in Palestine is the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel. The U.N. created this monster in 1947 and I'm sure with enough pressure, it can undo most, if not all of the damage. If we can bomb Saddam for not abiding by U.N. resolutions, then why are we so powerless when it comes to Israel.

I have no hate in my heart for Jewish people, I'm just giving them a warning, don't tune out what most of the world is telling you. By not hearing and heeding the warnings given, you are creating anti-Semitism that will inevitably end in something horrible for the Jews as a race. By going against the will of G-d, you are creating your own hell. G-d has promised to deliver the "chosen" people only when he is ready. The creation of Israel was a perversion and a sin in the eyes of G-d and will be punished accordingly. Heed the warnings.


Ok, so all jews should just leave israel, and wait a couple of thousand years when God is ready to deliver?

What a crock. :rolleyes:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by American


I'm not a "Jew hater." I think that the only way for peace in Palestine is the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel. The U.N. created this monster in 1947 and I'm sure with enough pressure, it can undo most, if not all of the damage. If we can bomb Saddam for not abiding by U.N. resolutions, then why are we so powerless when it comes to Israel.

I have no hate in my heart for Jewish people, I'm just giving them a warning, don't tune out what most of the world is telling you. By not hearing and heeding the warnings given, you are creating anti-Semitism that will inevitably end in something horrible for the Jews as a race. By going against the will of G-d, you are creating your own hell. G-d has promised to deliver the "chosen" people only when he is ready. The creation of Israel was a perversion and a sin in the eyes of G-d and will be punished accordingly. Heed the warnings.


There wouldn’t be anti Semitism in the world if there weren’t any Jews.

Most of the problem in the ME can be traced to the fact that Israel wasn’t given enough land in the ME. They should have ended up with SA for starters in fact why not the whole ME.
The UN Resolutions imposed against Iraq are quite different than the ones pertaining to Israel. I’m not going to spell out the differences because you seem rather blind to me.

[Gilgamesh]

Question to forum members.

"American" is an anti semitic creature, who clearly does nothing other then cut and paste from arab propoganda web sites. How come IT keeps on posting?

We can all go into the many anti semtic web sites ourselves, if "know thy enemy" is our goal in mind. Why do we have to tolrate IT here?

We have a sample of his views, you can put them in the archive.

[elke]

American,

Everything you have posted came from an electronicintifadah clone (by the way, intifadah is not trivial, because it has taken many lives. Not as many as some other conflicts in the world - e.g. Algeria, - but nevertheless too many. However, recognizing propaganda and lies is essential for anyone claiming to do "research").

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have seen the sites you've mentioned, and found them severely lacking in either integrity or factual information. They were, however, rich in garbage content - which can be debunked easily by chasing down the actual sources for what they say.

A good start for your research on your own would be here:
http://www.us-israel.org/

[elke]

Originally posted by American
Hear the accounts from the sailors on the U.S.S. Liberty, they WERE there, you weren't. These brave men set up a memorial website where you can hear, in their own words, what really happened on the U.S.S. Liberty:

http://www.ussliberty.org

It's conjecture, inference, projection, and other such concepts that would describe what's on this site. How do you expect "these brave men" to have known what went through the minds of the Israelis? You weren't there either, so how do you know what "really happened"?

[Kahz]

So, since a place is in the Middle East, when Jews immigrate to it they are "invaders", but when Arabs immigrate to it they automatically become "natives" and when Jews make their little state they are stealing it from these so-called "natives".

What I find funny is that you write about all these massacres and Jewish terror attacks but pay no attention to Arab terror attacks and massacred that happened before Israel was created and before the occupation.

Regarding the USS Liberty, nobody is denying that the ship was deliberately attacked, but being a sailor on the ship does not give you the capability to read the minds on whether the Israelis knew that it was an American ship when they attacked it.

What about the Jews expelled from Arab lands? Why all the fuss about Palestinians being forced out but none about Jews? Selective ommision?

----------------------------------------
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/june02/forgotten.html

The Forgotten Exodus: The expulsion of the Jews from Arab lands and the Israeli-Arab dispute. That was the theme of a conference held recently in Paris, under the aegis of the Jewish European Congress.
Some 1,500 people attended the conference, including Israeli, French, American and Canadian university professors, historians, lawyers and writers, among them Quebec writer Naïm Kattan and Liberal MP Irwin Cotler.

At a time when the Palestinians are demanding the “right of return” to present-day Israel, the conference aimed to bring to light a tragic and little-known episode in Sephardi Jewish history that had been repressed for ideological reasons by everyone involved.

Shmuel Trigano, a sociology professor at the University of Paris-X-Nanterre and conference's main organizer, said the symposium was also a way to offer dignity to a group that had its way of life interrupted and its continuity shattered.

Trigano, the founder and director of the Jewish studies college of the Alliance Israelite Universelle and of Pardès, the European journal of Jewish studies and culture, as well as the author of some 30 books, was interviewed by The CJN shortly after the conference.

Canadian Jewish News: What was the main purpose of the conference?

Shmuel Trigano: The main purpose was to restore the moral dignity of the State of Israel and its historic truth. For several decades, the State of Israel has been charged with congenital guilt, because, according to its detractors, it chased out a nation in order to settle in its land. People are going out of their way to depict Israel and the cause of the Jewish people as a state founded on the dispossession of the Palestinian people, as a flagrant injustice.
They have, however, forgotten that 60 per cent of Israeli Jews were also chased out of their native lands and were forced to leave. The Palestinians' invocation of the right of return, since before the latest intifadah, has reawakened our memory. A memory that has been hidden and repressed has returned to the Jews of the Arab world, to the descendants of the 900,000 people who, from the 1940s on, had to leave the countries they had been living in for a very long time – because they had no choice – while leaving behind all their possessions. Like the Palestinians, these Sephardi Jews still held the keys to their houses as they left in haste.

CJN: Is the forced expulsion of the Jews from Arab countries comparable to that of the Palestinians, then?
Shmuel Trigano: Yes. There was an exchange of populations, as 600,000 Jews displaced from Arab countries immigrated to Israel, on the one hand, and on the other, 540,000 Palestinians displaced after the creation of Israel found themselves in several Arab countries. Those 600,000 Jews were stripped of all their belongings. They too lived in “transit camps.” We have a battle to fight on an international level, because this chapter of the history of the Jews from Arab lands has been completely hidden.
The fact that this indisputable historic reality is unknown allows the Palestinians to present themselves today as absolute victims.

CJN: Is there a pattern to the departure of the Jews from the Arab countries?
Shmuel Trigano: Yes. In some countries, the Jews found themselves excluded through legal actions that led to the loss of their rights as citizens, and the exclusions forced them into exile. In Iraq, there were even military expulsion programs, transferring people by truck through Jordan. In Yemen, the Jewish community was given a short period to leave before all emigration was forbidden. They were stripped of all their possessions by a subterfuge developed by the local authorities. In Egypt, the Jews were gradually excluded from any economic life, then they were interned, and their property was confiscated, to the point where life had become a hell. The Egyptian Jews also left with only a suitcase, leaving behind all their personal belongings… In other cases, the Jews left because they were afraid and felt they had no longer any future where they were.
CJN: The Palestinian refugees are insistent today in claiming financial compensation from Israel. Shouldn't the Jews who were forced to leave the Arab countries also have the right to financial compensation?
Shmuel Trigano: Absolutely. Financial compensation must also be paid to the Jews who had to leave with only a suitcase and left behind all their possessions. There is no reason to compensate the Palestinians and not the Jews under the pretext that the Jews may be pariahs, wanderers, and that it was therefore quite normal to expel them, to have them leave behind all their possessions.
CJN: How many Jews are still in the Muslim Arab countries?
Shmuel Trigano: About 10,000 Jews still live in the Arab-Muslim world, mainly in Morocco, and, to a lesser degree, in Tunisia. There are also a few thousand in Iran. The Iranian Jews cannot emigrate. Otherwise, the entire Arab world has been emptied of its Jews. We have to remember that what happened to 60 per cent of Israel's Jews is directly related to the history of the Arab nation states. When the Arab nation states were created in the Islamic Arab world, there was no longer any place for the Jews in those states.

[danholo]

"American" is nothing more than an antisemite.

He believes in the Khazar theory and everything else he has posted is the same antisemitic yimyam that you find at any antisemitic site out there.
All of these so-called "facts" are pure propaganda BS. It's stupid to even go talking to this man, since he is simply blinded by his hate and will stop at nothing to slander Jews.
American probably belongs to the KKK.

[Kahz]

What is the Khazar theory?

10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

Wow. So the accuracy of a claim has to do with how many people support it? Heh. Let's run with that for a minute ...

In 1991 all of the non-Arab nations (besides 3) took back their declaration of Zionism = Racism. That leaves non-Arab nations in the majority. According to your own theory, that makes you wrong! 100 nations can't be wrong on this issue!

[victot]

american,

be careful what jews you list as being against zionism.

ALbert Einstein was always pro-zionism. i think it was that he didnt agree with all the aspects of, but he still hailed himself as being pro-zionism.
HE WAS EVEN OFFERED TO BE PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL AT ONE POINT.

from http://www.thewjc.org/sermons/einstein.htm
Throughout his life, Einstein identified with Zionism. He wrote extensively about Zionism and attended many functions devoted to Zionist affairs. He was a friend of Israel's first President Dr. Chaim Weitzman and joined him on a highly successful fund-raising tour of the United States aimed at buying land in Israel and in funding the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. When Weitzman died, Prime Minister David Ben Gurion asked Einstein to accept the Presidency of Israel. Einstein declined the honor, saying he was deeply touched by the offer but did not feel suited for the position. It is illustrative of his commitment to Zionism, that when he went to the hospital for what proved to he his final days, he took with him his notes for a television address he was to give on the occasion of Israel's seventh anniversary.


Albert Einstein on Zionism
“Zionism springs from an even deeper motive than Jewish suffering. It is rooted in a Jewish spiritual tradition whose maintenance and development are for Jews the basis of their continued existence as a community.”


you challenged people to look up various words which villafy zionism and israel.
i challenge you to understand something...

israel belonged to jews before it belonged to arabs. When jews were FORCEBLY expelled from the land in the 1st century A.D, they have always dreamed and prayed of returning.

In the early seventh century a new religion came blazing out of Arabia fueled with the word of the prophet Mohammed and afire with his admonition to spread it. Islam (meaning "submission" or "surrender" to Allah's will) was seen by Mohammed as a continuation of Judaism and Christianity, and his God was the same as in both the Old and New Testaments. His followers spread quickly throughout the middle east (and much further). Except for several years of Christian control during the Crusades, Palestine remained in Muslim hands, first Arab then Turk, for 1300 years until the end of World War One.
Arabs used Islam for conquering half the world & for creating an Arab Empire thus making Islam a trade mark of Arabs.

Keeping this in mind, after 2 thousand years, jews were able to conquer the land back...
why should jews feel particularly guilty? arabs control hundreds of times more lands then jews, and jews controlled the land first, and prayed every day from exile for returning to it.

under your morality, it suddenly became COMPLETELY immoral for jews to get THEIR land back?
I understand compromise, and i understand that there are some extenuating circumstances, and thusly perhaps a deal could be reached where jews HALVE their tiny and holy ancestrial homeland, to give Arabs an additional 0.03% land which they can call theirs. but, a land in the middle east that is called israel that is mostly jewish, with jerusalem as its capital, you can't really tell me this is unfair.
i challenge you to explain to my why it is wrong.

these are the words of the israeli national anthem, called
"The Hope"

In The Jewish heart A Jewish spirit still sings,
And the eyes look east Toward Zion
Our hope is not lost,
Our hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem

here is its explanation on
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/hatikva.html

"During the two thousand years of exile, the Jewish people always kept a heartfelt prayer in their hearts for return to Israel. They said special daily prayers for return and they celebrated the holidays according to Israeli seasons and calendar. This is the message of the Hatikvah's first stanza. Zion is another name for Israel and Jerusalem. When the Jewish people pray their eyes, hearts and prayers are directed toward Israel and Jerusalem. For many long painful years, the land of Israel was in the hands of foreigners. The Jews who lived in Palestine were not free. Yet their hope for freedom and independence never died. The second stanza of the Hatikva recalls the undying hope of Jews through the generation, Jews who lived in other countries and Jews who had remained in Palestine.
When we sing the Hatikva together, we are doing much more than just singing a nice melody. We are making a promise that we will never forget the undying Jewish hope for independence and that we will do all within our power to help the State of Israel prosper."

Anyways, you don't have to be jewish to understand that israel and zionism aren't wrong...
even if there are words which you can look up to show israel isn't always perfect.

[Mediocrates]

At any rate I just look on anecdotes from 'American' the same way I look at traitors like 'American' who with every word spit on and despoil everything it is to be an American and everything it stands for. There's always a few people who for whatever reason don't get it or hate their own country or want attention or power or whatnot. It doesn't make it good or insightful but merely curious. This board has a few self professed antizionist non religious Jews who rationalize it in different ways. Bully for them, but they don't respect themselves they can't expect anyone else to respect them either.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by American
...here are a few fully documented incidences that you can verify by going to google and doing a search for yourselves:
...If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media.
I'm really going to have to report you to Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar for rummaging through their personal libraries when they weren't looking and pasting their material here. Don't you know that it's bad manners to ransack one's cave when they're on the run? :D

I've rarely seen more a more ridiculous Islamic propaganda smear than your posts, which I'll repeat, are a typical attempt to insult the intelligence of Americans and other Westerners.


You reap what you sow.

Now, that's a good thing for you to remember to write down and tie it to your finger, so that when Israel drops another 1 ton bomb on a Hamas warlord you can take out your note and read it to yourself in between the Friday afternoon incitement sessions at your local mosque.

You know, I have seen many terrorism supporters like you make excuse after excuse to try to sell Islamic terrorism to Americans even after the damage done to us by the Arabs on 9/11.

It's Israel's fault, it's America's fault, it's Western civilization's fault, it's the Hindu's fault, it's the Budhist's fault. Zionism is evil, because the Jews have no right to live in the Jewish homeland, etc. I've heard all this stupid babbling by now and your opinions that are based on Islamic terrorism dogma are no different.

But I'll tell you one thing, most other pro-Palestinian activists have done a much better job of backing their views in this forum than you, because they know better than to try to pass off Mullah Omar's anti-Zionism drivel as fact.

Your "sources" are really an insult to people's intelligence. Maybe it would work better on the pre-schoolers on the Yahoo boards, but you're way out of your league here with that stale old pro-terrorism propaganda.

[Mr. Pumps]

Now back to the topic.

No peace can ever be achieve if the small ragtag groups willing to do anything to acheve their goal are allowed to spread and become more courageous from the lack of assertion put up by a Nation's Army.

Do you think Hamas or Islamic Jihad would have been able to launch 72 suicide attacks and countless shooting attacks if from day one the the IDF top brass figured that you need to build INSTANT momentum and KEEP that moment going. I am sure there would have been peace by know if the IDF 800 pound gorilla squashed the Palestinian turtle with all it's weight by now in one huge attack.

Nations figure that out that without immediate, surprise, planned out, decisive, effective action by a army agianst a group or foriegn enemy, Peace will never come. Groups like Hamas and Fatah elevated themselves with every attack and gesture of defiance. So the Pattern keeps going.

Bottomline: Without a massive strategic operation of all territory with Gaza and the West Bank, all those Terrorist Palestinian groups will go on and contiune unabatted even if members are rounded up and arrested.

These groups will continue even with a few men left, so all the members have to be exterminated in one gigantic swoop.

[American Inca]

Originally posted by Formula



Ok, so all jews should just leave israel, and wait a couple of thousand years when God is ready to deliver?

What a crock. :rolleyes:

[danholo]

Hey mr. Polytheist,

We are in Israel. That is G-d's will. Everything is.
It is our choice to follow the Torah.
The Judaistic explanation for suffering in Israel is, indeed, because Jews do not choose to abide by Torah.
In the end we will follow it, but you nor any other antisemite can tell us what to do.

You are a religious antisemite, who belives that we Jews are from Satan. Well, unlike your beliefs, we believe in one G-d, not gods.
In Judaism, Satan is an angel created by G-d that tempts human's to do evil things. We have not done evil things and we still don't do "evil" in a grander scale. No, we do not follow "Lucifer" and we never have.
I believe that in Christianity, if you do not believe in G-d, you are tempted by some other deity called "Satan" or "Lucifer".
In Judaism, it is us who choose to follow G-d and no other being is involved. It is our will and our will alone.

In Judaism, Jews can not prevail in Israel if Jews do not choose to follow the Torah. But Jews are the only people that can prosper there. If there were only Arabs, it would still be a desolate desert.
G-d has clearly given us the go ahead to Israel and a new chance to start acting by G-d's will.

Anyways, there is no point in debating with you, because
1. Most of your "facts" are already refuted propaganda.
2. You started a religious debate.
3. Most here are not religious and will laugh at you.
4. Beliefs can not be debated about since your belief is, well, what it is, and it can not be changed.

Shouldn't you be at your annual Christian White Power meeting by now?

Good day.

[danholo]

American:

G-d told Moses, "Your people have corrupted themselves" and then cast out the Nation of Israel from the Promised Land, did you not learn from your first mistakes?

Have you not learned that an antisemite will not get any respect from Jews?

How could've G-d told this to Moses, since the Israelites were not even in the Promised Land yet!?
Your religious knowledge is lacking.

[bluefish]

First of all i just want to clarify i expected no less from American- i'm sure it was very hard for him keeping religion out of this debate for this long, when he had his kind of "sources".

Seriously now, what's the point of dragging religion into this debate? you say "G-d just doesn't want you to live there- check your books" and then i say "we checked our books and G-d also talks about our return to Israel and about our right to this land"- what's the point? religion has some saying in this conflict but it isn't the point- i can drag in religious fanatics in Bney Brak (israel) who don't believe in Israel because the jewish people havn't turned their ways- that would mean nothing since it isn't relevant to this topic.

Explain to me (I'm not going to be here so you'll have to wait till tomorrow) why do the Palestiniens (since you so clearly said this isn't about religion but about the people) have the right to this land and Israel doesn't? and don't start quoting some islamic passages at me- when you try bring opinions as facts and religion as truth to this debate you'd better be able to back it up with some kind of real world... facts, or else you (in my eyes at least) have no opinion and bring nothing to this debate besides whatever your local religious overlord tells you...

[Mr. Pumps]

Let me ask you a question "American". Are you sane?

You believe the Jews are "condemned" for not following the word of God.............HUH? are you some David Koresh wantabee or just a few braincells short of the looneybin.

It frightens me dearly to hear you are American.

You don't know got knowledge on anything, because NO ONE knows what comes after death......absolutely no one.

Just shut the hell up you aged nut.

[Mr. Pumps]

I am from Indigenous Inca Empire of the Americas

:confused: What does that mean? :confused:

Are you a Incan decendent? The ones who got wiped out by the Spanish under Pizarro, and all their identity got wiped away forever.

You say the Jews are destined to suffer, but here is the ever growing religion of Mohammed calling us all nonbelievers who have to believe in Allah or be killed. If you are from the Incan people you know very well what such religious fanaticalism can do.

[Mr. Pumps]

I am guessing you are orginally from Peru and Cuzco...Right?

Sorry the burst your bubble American or Mr. Incan, but Islam wants to destroy the Jews and Israel not the other way around. If given a chance I bet the followers of Mohammed would have beheaded all Incans as well including Tupac if given the chance.

Islam is a bigger threat to the Jews that the Spanish ever were to the Incas with over 2,000,000 Arab troops looking at Israel from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon

[American Inca]

Exactly! Look further into this "Terrorism" you are so afraid of. The "extremism" dosen't come from religion, it NEVER does. It comes from the power of the colony and it's MANipulation of religion.

Look at Osama! Trained, protected and funded by the CIA! It's a known fact. Religious extremism CANNOT survive with power of the STATE.

Those "suicide" bombings Israel is suffering from, do you really thing the religious people of Palestine, the G-d fearing people even have access to explosives? Look for the money trail and where it leads to. Explosives, guns and ammunition come from STATES! GOVERNMENTS! Not religion.

Saddam is another good example. Funded, protected and bought and maintained in power by the hidden hand of the United States. We manufacture our own enemies and then fully EXPECT them to attack to give the Colony more power to interfere in our lives.

In Palestine it is a known fact that the PLO has funding from the CIA, while Hamas had in the past, and probably still today, support from Israel herself:

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

See, the hidden hand of the Colonial state is ALWAYS involved in keeping the people fighting amongst themselves and deflecting attention away from themselves. It's a perfect plan for control and Colonial expansion at the expense of the poor and weak.

[Mr. Pumps]

Are you truely Incan by blood in anyway?

[Kahz]

American:

Palestinians do have access to explsovives, as well as weapons. I suppose they have developed a new form of rock that shoots bullets and explodes, no?

You are aware that HAMAS didn't form it self into a terrorist group until 1988, right?

And there are many more terrorist groups in 'Palestine' than HAMAS. Islamic Jihad, Al-Asqa, Palestinian Hizbullah, etc.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Now back to the topic...
Do you think Hamas or Islamic Jihad would have been able to launch 72 suicide attacks and countless shooting attacks if from day one the the IDF top brass figured that you need to build INSTANT momentum and KEEP that moment going. I am sure there would have been peace by know if the IDF 800 pound gorilla squashed the Palestinian turtle with all it's weight by now in one huge attack.

You make a very good point!

[ayesha]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
I am guessing you are orginally from Peru and Cuzco...Right?

Sorry the burst your bubble American or Mr. Incan, but Islam wants to destroy the Jews and Israel not the other way around. If given a chance I bet the followers of Mohammed would have beheaded all Incans as well including Tupac if given the chance.

Islam is a bigger threat to the Jews that the Spanish ever were to the Incas with over 2,000,000 Arab troops looking at Israel from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon


well mate u lost ur bet.
poor thing. u r obviously far too stupid to realise the difference between Islam as a way of life, and the facade the politicians use for their gain. tut tut tut. ya maskeen.

[Batman]

American Inca you said: 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

Check our Nazi Germany - they were also a majority...do you think that if you would have lived then you would have thought they can't be wrong?

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by ayesha



well mate u lost ur bet.
poor thing. u r obviously far too stupid to realise the difference between Islam as a way of life, and the facade the politicians use for their gain. tut tut tut. ya maskeen.

No, not really lady. Not as I know fully well what Islam is:

1.) praying to god six-times a day.
2.)Women wearing a outfit that covers everything
3.) Backward ideas. Is the world flat?

I don't give a damn about politicians for I formulate my own ideas.

I have said this numerous times, I just live in a different world and the Israelis live in a different world. My world is technology, Goods education, sexiness, books, history, knowledge, movies, music, drinking occasionally, sports, debatable politics.....you and the Palestinians are jealous that the Jews created luxury and the Western world knowledge, thinking and capability out of alittle patch of land. I like Israel because it is a society I can identify with, sure the Jewish religion is different from Christianity, but I am guessing not by much, and I won't feel like a complete stranger there. If Palestine was Israel it would'nt be 1% as successful, a Somalia type freak state.

Israel is completely Western, Israel is in
my world, in the Western world.

[Mediocrates]

well mate u lost ur bet.
poor thing. u r obviously far too stupid to realise the difference between Islam as a way of life, and the facade the politicians use for their gain. tut tut tut. ya maskeen

maskeen? wouldn't that be miskeen?

BTW does anybody know why Arafat picked that name to give himself? I understand about the plains of Arafat at the Hajj but what is the significance for an Egyptian-Palestinian man to give himself that name?

[Mr. Pumps]

What is a Maskeen?

Sorry I don't speak inhuman degenerate.

Please enlighten me since your spelling and meaning is a complete blank to me.

Any country who outright threatens a Western nation is a enemy and that rabble must be liquidated.

[L@mplighterM]

Maskeen=visibly in need, but also those who seem in no need of help, but who in reality are very poor. Singular: Miskeen.

[Mr. Pumps]

Miskeen........hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Well how am I suppose to know that.

Not exactly in everyday use! it's like me calling her a git, which she knows its meaning, but no one else here does.

Well, she is a lackluster. misinformed git with limited insight and integrity.

[Mediocrates]

That's inappropriate and mean.

Everybody stop or get out of the pool.

[Mr. Pumps]

Git=Mindless person

Sorry mediocrates! but I do not want to be called a disabled illknowledged fool when I am not.

Alyesha does'nt know where I come from or any