is peace really possible? [Archive]

ayesha

08-02-2002, 05:46 AM

upon the advice of a fellow member i have decided to post one of my previous posts here in order to see if any constructive views could be added.

It's interesting to read your views in this thread, although I'm a Lebanese woman and not sure I'm welcome here. Nevertheless, upon readingother sites, I wish to add a few words of my own opinion.

Peace is a state of being that all communities should strive for, a state in which everyone works and lives in harmony and co-operation. Sounds reasonable. However, is it really necessary? I hear people saying peace is not an option nowadays, Israelis and Palestinians do not want peace, and so peace is not desired. Let's check this..

The situation as it is now is not acceptable. A life of fear, anger and hate professed on both sides. Let's examine the different solutions as they are perceived from different points of view. Some Palestinians suggest to continue armed resistance and to build up military power and force Israel to withdraw its occupation. To answer this I point to Israel's extensive military experience and technology, and also point to statistics of recent years concerning territories, casualties and their knock-on effects on the economy. Armed resistance means completely destroying the land, with little or no progress to freedom.

Some Israelis suggest to transfer or, better stil, eradicate the entire Palestinian population. However, to answer this I must say that wherever the Arab/Palestinian may be, ambitions will not be surpressed and their desire to fight for their cause will only increase with time. No fence or border will ever protect Israel from this, and she is shown this time and time again. Transfer only means perpetuating Palestinian actions against Israel. Continued clashes will worsen the Palestinians' life and thus strenthen the armed resistance and guerilla warfare.

Of course, only a peace agreement will eventually lead to true safety. Any other 'solution' means either hiding behind an illusion of safety or perpetuating the dangers through endless conflict, where no side can 'win'.

The question remains, how shall we decide what is the desired fair peace? Who gets what and why? Many ould clearly say the right thing to do in order to judge this is to go to history books and see exactly what happened, and rule according to this information. That is the right thing to do in my opinion as well.
But is it really that simple?
There is no history. This is easily seen from the vast information on the web, where all points of view are mixed, not bound by any border. Studying the available histories can create some confusion. There are extreme differences between histories as each side portrays it. Can we reach a mutual decision about one, true history? There is in my books and maybe that has a lot with me being lebanese. But then to ba fair and true I tell myself that the roots of why the Jews feel a connection to the land is irrelevant. The feeling is enough.

Some Israelis might say "We are fighting a war, Palestinians don't want peace, they're not ready for self-governing, will never abandon the way of violence."
Some Palestinians might say "We are being occupied by a vicious, ruthless army, and though the Israeli government claims to be 'peaceful' they really want surrender NOT peace."
On both sides you will find people saying "They seek to destroy us." Even agreeing on the present is not simple. Except maybe, hat things should not continue as they are.

Obviously, there is a clash concerning territories and governing, concerning rights and obligations, concerning limits and borders. However, I believe that there is a middle point that both sides can agree on, and once this common ground is found things will be different. How different? Peace? Love? Happiness? I doubt it. BUT there will be TOLERANCE. I may hate my neighbour playing loud music long into the early hours BUT I could tolerate it for a while, and then maybe have a quiet word if things persist - agreeing that as long as s/he chooses an appropriate time I'd be ok with it. We could write up a timetable and stick to it..sounds trivial but I think the principle is quite relevant and reliable.

Nevertheless, even then there will be a long road ahead. But the change could mean that things could finally start moving in a positive direction. Obviously change will not be easy and it will be frustrating, but the way things are today they seem to be going downhill, deeper into an abyss that will be impossible to get out of. Leading to more destruction, more bitterness and more death. Then less understanding and consequently bigger gaps to bridge.

To have a durable condition of safety and peace there cannot be a situation in which neighbouring people have extremely different living conditions. - Where some have a relatively prosperous life and others a life of poverty with distinct cruel differences. A rich nation neighbouring an extremely poor one. Why not? because sucha difference will create financial dependence, and will rvive, strengthen and justify resentment and friction between the two sides. Moreover, if the difference is extreme, it will lead to the poorer side giving birth to extreme actions..here's where the suicide bombing takes effect. Also, it will lead to the richer side giving birth to ideas of superiority, and contempt to exploit.

So, it is an objective to create prosperity throughout the region, to build up the Palestinians' quality of life, be it industry or schooling. The current situation only serves to cripple what is left of the Palestinian economy. So an immediate step to final peace must be to stop ruining the Palestinian economy. Nonetheless, more steps are needed, many more, and the financial aid can only be gained through a peace agreement, by international financial aids to support peace.

It is agreed by most people concerned with the conflict, that the solution will be two territories, one to Israelis, one to Palestinians. The difficult thing to agree on is the line between those two territories.

So how can a border line be agreed by everyone? We should remember that both Palestinians need space to work, live and cultivate land.
Agreement must be based on mutual recognition.
Agreement must be based on equality between the sides.
These are necessary in order to form any sort of foundation for equal and just negotiations, negotiations leading to a border-agreement that will not be a source for further dispute.

The fate of Jerusalem, the right of return and the settlemets are all controversial issues. Countless different opinions, demands and arguments. The different solutions propsed must be reviewed by both parties. To either, some solutions may seem acceptable and other solutions may not BUT few solutions will seem like outright insanity! What is likely to happen is not a single negotiation will immediately be tagged as acceptable by both parties. However, as in any negotiation, ONE of the solutions can and will be agreed upon.
Big stones can be moved and it will take time, effort and long, painful talks. Difficult but possible.

The past is a good teacher. It has taught us that a peoples' self-determination cannot be surpressed and must not be dictated.
The past teaches us that a situation in which behind a fence people live in hunger, fear and humilation is not tolerable and only nds in both sides' sacred blood being spilled.

ayesha

08-02-2002, 05:48 AM

how about if we take the same structure used for Washington D.C.? It doesnt belong to ANY group yet is governed by all??
just a thought

Simon

08-02-2002, 08:30 AM

A good idea in principle.

The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Without that, everything you have written is worthless.

Rafman

08-02-2002, 09:06 AM

If I understand you correctly, what you say makes sense. It's unrealistic to think that on one nice and sunny day, Israelies and Palestinians will sit down, sign a peiece of paper and peace will come from it... It simply won't happen that way.

and what Simon says, well is just as unrealistic. You say we need to "start" by reversing the brainwash by islamic fanatics, and i say that is not a start, that is the heart, the whole of the problem. If you fix that, you fix the problem, and that is much easier said than done.

I agree ayesha to the extent that, the bad living conditions that Palestinians are currently living it makes them more susceptible to want to just blame it on Israel, and thus hate them for it. I mean sure, everyone here in america always says, money is everything. If you have money, everything is possible. I'm sure the mentality in the Middle East is the exact same thing. If the Palestinian economy was striving, if they were making money much of the hatred towards Israel would be relegated as a secondary issue.

So if there is a way to revive the economic status of the Palestinians, no doubt it would greatly help this struggle. However, the problem is everything is tied to terrorism in the end. Its due to terrorist attacks that Israel empose strict sanctions and curfiews, to prevent more attacks, which hurt the economy. To revive the palestinian economy as you say, means to give them much, much more freedom than they currently have, but that would inevitably lead to more terrorist acts, so it won't happen in the current state of things

What really needs to be done, is for the PA to get new leadership. A new responsible leader, who will fight the terrorism actively. That might open up the route to peace

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 09:08 AM

Ayesha,

Please understand that when some of us ask whether peace is necessary, we are not saying that a state of peace between the two peoples is undesirable.

The point is whether we must return to the official "peace process" or if near-term security and stability can be obtained in some other way.

The idea of expelling Palestinians from the WB and perhaps Gaza is an idea that would have no meaningful support if there were not Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians.

Ayesha, there is more to peace than just resolving controversial issues. It is well known that many Palestinian militants believe in a two-step plan to destroy Israel. They have publicly said so. Israelis are perhaps split on whether Jerusalem can and should be divided. Few Israelis, however, see the "right of return" of large numbers to inside Israel as anything but a Trojan horse. Particularly when placed side-by-side with the Palestinian demand that Jewish settlements be dismantled.

Thus, there has to be evidence of a genuine desire for peace -- not just talking "peace" as a tactical maneuvre.

The first demand of those who sincerely seek peace is a halt to terrorist attacks. It is well known to everyone that Israel would not have forces in Palestinin towns and cities today were it not for these attacks. Those who pretend the terrorist attacks are a response to renewed military presence are shameless liars.

But if the Palestinian side is not willing to really shut down terrorist groups, then certainly Israel does not need a false "peace" in which mass murder attacks just keep on coming. The PA can "condemn" terrorist attacks but to them that is just a little white lie.

This is why Palestinians must find a leader who is not a notorious terrorist. If they refuse to do so, that tells us they really don't want peace -- that the people who say Israel will be destroyed even if it takes another 100 years are still firmly in charge.

Mediocrates

08-02-2002, 09:43 AM

Or you could look at it this way. You could say it's either awfully ironic, of almost biblical proportions, or amazingly fortuitous that Israel is the sharp point of the spear in the fight between Islamism and the West and that no peace is possible until radical Islamism is smashed into the dust.

Expansionist, dominant Islamism has been in decline since the Rennaissance in the West and radical Islamism & fundamentalism is the inevitable backlash to that decline. One could make a case that ANY non Islamic culture or country plunked down there would generate more or less the same reaction from the Arab states that by way were patched together in the same helter skelter way of some British Mandarin waving a pointer over a map.

There is absolutely nothing unique or special or traditional or treasured or sacred or holy about ANY borders in the Mid East and SW Asia and all the yawping carping revisionist idiots need to understand that one basic fact.

Just this Myrmidon's opinion. Hand me my spear.

elke

08-04-2002, 05:24 AM

I agree with you, Ayesha: prosperity is the key. Once people have something to lose, they think twice (at least) before doing something that has a chance at losing what they have. However, this prosperity cannot come from aid alone. The aid should be nothing more nor less than a leg up.

In the 21st century, the key to prosperity is education. Secular education, I might add. Practical sciences: i.e. chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology, are the life-blood of any modern economy.

While these sciences are not necessarily incompatible with religion per se, they are indeed incompatible with the very concept of fanaticism of any sort. With religious fanaticism, we can see it in the battles for Creationism to be taught in schools, the vitriolic rhetoric spewed out by the mullahs of all denominations against organ transplants, and so on and so forth. With political fanaticism, the time, energy, and human ability that can be spent on improving the lot of the members in the society is instead wasted away on attempts to achieve the unrealistic, and even undesirable, goals. This has got to change, in all societies that aspire to better life for their people!

One positive side effect of the concentration on the sciences rather than religion or other such nebulous subjects, is the necessary commitment to the Scientific Method. As far as I am concerned, the most important development Enlightenment brought to the Western civilization is just that.

Since UN is responsible for the education of the Palestinians, it is inconceivable to me that they haven't figured this out. Like any other people, Palestinians need their doctors, scientists, engineers, and chemists - they shouldn't have to rely on other communities to provide them with these services. There is nothing inherently wrong with their mental capacities, as attested to by the success of many outside. Therefore, this must be the failure of their educational system. Quite apart from the ideological incitement, there is simply inadequate education: not in terms of facts, but rather in terms of the ways and means of acquiring knowledge, and most importantly, critical thinking skills . As far as I am concerned, the most concerted effort at this time should be put on revamping just that .

victot

08-04-2002, 05:49 AM

you know how every year there are such events as a TOUR DE FRANCE, a WIMBLEDON, and such and such...
I think if israel and the palestinians could ever make peace, there should be some kind of a yearly event which the whole world watches. like peace day or something, where 10,000,000 million people or something flock to the middle of west bank and israel (?jerusalem?) to celebrate the yearly event...
If something big like that could happen every year, bye-bye economic problems to both israel and the palestinians.
i think such a thing would be great, cuz people love big events, and biblical israel, (?jerusalem? no less) would be a great worldly location for such a gathering, cuz most of the world is thinking of that place on a daily basis anyways.

elke

08-04-2002, 05:57 AM

Great idea, Victot! The only problem, of course, is how to assure adequate security from the nuts and flakes at such an event.

Teacake

08-04-2002, 06:31 AM

I agree with you, Ayesha: prosperity is the key. Once people have something to lose, they think twice (at least) before doing something that has a chance at losing what they have.

A westen mind thinks this way. Don't forget that more progress was made on the deal with Barak, they were on the brink of statehood and responded with starting a war rather than raising a flag.

Don't forget that all 19 of the 911 attack were university educated and led prosperious lifestyles. They all have a lot to live for and chose to die.

Does anyone really believe that if the pals got a state that all the other terror networks working globally would just clap their hands for joy and give up jihad? Very very doubtful. Israel is the red herring.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide_1.html

elke

08-04-2002, 07:53 AM

Well, natural selection also works among civilizations, not just biological entities. It's not accidental that the Western civilization, its faults notwithstanding, is the dominant culture in the world today. Its strength is in its ability to absorb the useful concepts from any other cultures it encounters and treat them with respect.

The Romans were powerful so long as they followed this simple principle of tolerance to others. So were the Arabs - again, so long as they showed at least a modicum of respect to the cultures they ruled. Once this respect eroded, both of these colossi tumbled. Very instructive, studying history. ;)

Mediocrates

08-04-2002, 08:09 AM

Prosperity is not the key. It's important but not the key. Radicalism comes from the educated middle class not the poor. What is key is to disavow oneself of the notion of inevitable cultural supremacy and the destiny of nationhood.

They don't exist.

The Palistinians will never get all that they claim they want. Never. That is a 1000% certainty.

The Israelis will never remove them from the WB and Gaza. Never happen. Bank on it.

Stalemate.

Ok what do you do? You settle for what you can live with. I will ask the PA boosters here for the 9th time Is a Free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine. Does that question make you faux Marxists uncomfortable? Haven't figured out meaningless babble PR text you would answer that one with yet? Don't worry I'll keep asking until you do, poseurs. At any rate let's say you lie to me and say "sure we can accept them". How many then? Half of what's there now?, A quarter, all of them? which is it? Do they have to swear an oath to Allah to vote? Are they dhimmi?

And so on. What are your actual criteria for success?

The Palistinians want to move back to Israel. Ok what if that is limited to the first 100,00 people who show up? Does that work for you? What are your actual success critera?

You want Jerusalem? Well isn't that nice. You're not going to get it. Not all of it. You're not going to be allowed to drop rocks on Jews at the Wall. And there will be a huge number of other limitations that modern people living in a modern city have to obey. So get with the program or just rejoin the Bronze Age somewhere else.

Peace is possible if you understand that the purpose of peace is provide an opportunity to do something besides be at war. It's not a cessation of hostilities, it's not an interregnum, a process, a group hug, a PR event or a reason to rearm and saddle up. It's a state or condition of not killing one another most of the time. What you do with it otherwise is largely your problem. And that is a huge problem.

I think the PA knows this: a productive peace is much more difficult to achieve and make something of than an interminable war. War is easy. Aim, fire, repeat. Which is why they are so intent on war.

So, you have to understand what you're willing to live with; a workable agreement or a dream of paradise. Take the first option because life is brutal, unfair and short. Get over it.

ayesha

08-05-2002, 02:58 AM

israel's closure policy and restriction of movement

perhaps most harmful to palestinian human, civil and economic rights has been israel's policy of closure, in effect since March 1993 which severely limits palestinians' feedom of movement.

B'Tselem, a leading israeli human rights monitoring organisation states, israel's neglect of the educational, health, economic and ultural infrastructure of the WB and Gaza during more than 35 years o military occupation and rendered palestinians overly dependent on services and resources accessible only within israel or jerusalem. thus, closure constitutes a chillingly effective form of collective punishment, as it brings palestinian economic, medical, and educational life to a virtual halt.

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers. according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

ayesha

08-05-2002, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by Simon
A good idea in principle.

The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

mmm to an extent ur right simon, but how? any suggestions?

MGB8

08-05-2002, 10:32 AM

First, the closures are not curfews (those are different), so places of worship and inter-town things remain open. Food shipments and aid shipments still come.

However, the thing about the closure, while you may find them draconian, they are the most peaceful way of stopping suicide bombers.

And frankly, Israeli LIVES matter more to me than the Palestinian economy.

Originally posted by ayesha
israel's closure policy and restriction of movement

perhaps most harmful to palestinian human, civil and economic rights has been israel's policy of closure, in effect since March 1993 which severely limits palestinians' feedom of movement.

B'Tselem, a leading israeli human rights monitoring organisation states, israel's neglect of the educational, health, economic and ultural infrastructure of the WB and Gaza during more than 35 years o military occupation and rendered palestinians overly dependent on services and resources accessible only within israel or jerusalem. thus, closure constitutes a chillingly effective form of collective punishment, as it brings palestinian economic, medical, and educational life to a virtual halt.

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers. according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

cerulean

08-05-2002, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Simon
The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Originally posted by ayesha
mmm to an extent ur right simon, but how? any suggestions?

All the parties involved that send money - the US, the UN, Arab states, even Israel - should make any further money contingent on changes to the educational system. Easier said than done. The Arab states have a vested interest in whipping up resentment, for one thing. Removing the hate from the curriculum will leave an obvious, gaping vacuum.

I have heard of joint Jewish/Arab schools. What are the children taught there? How about in schools directly sponsored by foreign entities - I've heard of a German Lutheran school in Bethlehem (one female would-be suicide bomber said she had Israeli friends from that school).

Jorge

08-07-2002, 09:19 AM

To Mediocrates:
Quote from your post# 12

Ok what do you do? You settle for what you can live with. I will ask the PA boosters here for the 9th time Is a Free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine. Does that question make you faux Marxists uncomfortable? Haven't figured out meaningless babble PR text you would answer that one with yet? Don't worry I'll keep asking until you do, poseurs. At any rate let's say you lie to me and say "sure we can accept them". How many then? Half of what's there now?, A quarter, all of them? which is it?

Since you seem so bent on receiving an answer about whether or not Jews will be allowed to live inside a Palestinian State, so that, as you say , you'll keep asking the same question over and over, I'll give you my modest opinion on the subject. I'm not sure my answer will put your mind at rest because you require an answer from the "faux Marxists" and I'm not one of them. I'm not even sure what a "faux Marxist" could be. Nowadays it's pretty hard to be a true or real Marxist; that someone could choose to pretend to be a Marxist, a Marxist "in disguise" so to speak, is beyond my comprehension.

I would say that the answer to your question is clearly: No. Not at least in the intermediate period of a peace process. In the distant future, when we achieve an state of real peace with the palestinians (and even an optimist like myself understands that it's going to take a long time) this will be possible as will be the reverse situation of palestinians wanting to settle in Israel. In the meantime, not a chance; allow me explain you why, in my opinion, it's a no-go situation.
The present state of affairs is such that to keep settlers in their settlements, we need about three quarters of the israeli army( in some places the rate is about 5 soldiers for every settler). Not only that but we had to build and keep on building special roads that do not go near arab villages or towns to communicate those settlements with Israel proper. Not only that, but palestinian traffic is not allowed in those roads and, in these same weeks, not in any road. In spite of all these efforts, we have not been able to prevent murderous attacks on settlers and not even to decrease their frequency. It's unreasonable to expect that a
palestinian police could do a better job than the mighty Israeli army.
An hypothetical, newly born, Palestinian State could not have the resources and the military might to do a better or equal job than Israel in guaranteeing the safety of Jewish settlers. Even if they wanted to, the effort would drain the state coffers in a few weeks. You wouldn't expect them to declare some roads
out of bound for palestinians, would you?

I assume that you understand that the mere creation of a Palestinian State can not make Hamas and Islamic Jihad and other such groups to evaporate by miraclein thin air. Terror may be contained but it's not likely to stop entirely. So why should the palestinians take upon themselves the extraneous task of guaranteeing the safety of the settlers?. According to their views they have no reason to be there anyway; if Israel had devoted the economic resources dedicated to settlements in the territories to investments in infrastructure, education,etc. this would have been a far prosperous country; do you expect from the palestinians to continue israeli policy regarding the settlements?
quote:

The Palistinians will never get all that they claim they want. Never. That is a 1000% certainty.
OK, fair enough! That's the whole idea of peace negotiations. They will have to accept that some dreams will have to be abandoned. But some of our dreams will have to be abandoned too and one of them is that of Jewish settlers colonizing the West Bank and Gaza.

Vic

08-07-2002, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by cerulean
How about in schools directly sponsored by foreign entities - I've heard of a German Lutheran school in Bethlehem (one female would-be suicide bomber said she had Israeli friends from that school). Horrible idea, really. Nothing promotes slobbering self-pity better than such schools :eek: :mad: :rolleyes:

Here is a story on the head of a similar school in Beit Djallah - in German: http://www.n-tv.de/3054704.html (in German, sorry - I can post a summary if anyone is interested). The guy who blew himself up in a falafel stand in Jerusalem has visited it.

The head of the school, Wilhelm Goller, has been a constant media fixture in Germany for years, hugging Arafat, sobbing about the poor little things entrusted to him and sometimes even parading them as such for public benefit - a sickening sight.

I have suggested in another thread that one of best things that could happen to the Palestinians would be to chuck out their concerned Western "friends", and I can only repeat it - maybe without them the Palestinians would be able to take more responsibility for themselves and their actions. Being more or less forced into a perpetual "we unfortunate, desperate victims" show (since this is the only role the Palestinians seem to be acceptable to their friends and supporters) can hardly help to create a stable situation.

Mediocrates

08-07-2002, 10:44 AM

I would say that the answer to your question is clearly: No.

Thanks. My question was not about the logistics of protecting them. It was about the inclination of giving the Palestinians what they want and seeing if they are actually capable of having a modern society and not a tribe or a clan. Clearly we agree on this and it is not whether it is practical or not but simply because it is impossible.

And the answer only reinforces why there is a critical need to never back down. Because in plain terms there is no possibility of Jews living as a minority among Palestinians or any other arabs w/o them being killed or enslaved. Period. That is really the most basic issue over which all of this other noise floats. That is the one irrefutable truth as sure as gravity.

This is why Israel has to apply as much pressure as possible now to set the stage for future 'negiotiations and gain as much as they can, by force right now. The only way to bring the Palestinians to the table at all is to be a cruel hammer and to pound them down until even they see there is absolutely no alternative.

And when that happens we all know, all of us do, the Israelis, the arabs the Americans, the Europeans, all, understand that even that won't be a real negotiation. It will be Israel on one side of the table and Arafat on the other and the Israelis will be talking about what kind of terms Arafat would be willing to accept for an Israeli strategic withdrawal from Yesha. It will be completely one sided on that issue and everyone knows that. And they won't even get a thank you for their trouble.

In fact I challenge all the apologists here to continue to defend and kneel at the boots of Arafat after the Israeli suburbs are evacuated and still Arafat prances and shakes his fist for the next wave of assassinations against Jews. I'm sure some of them here will be comforted by that too.

But - what the Israelis will not back down from is the surrender of Jerusalem and arab ingathering. Those will never happen. By that time much of the Palestinian population will be poor and under the age of 15 that one would think they'll more pressing things to worry about than killing Jews.

So in the end it's never really been about how many Jews live in Yesha. 200,000? more?less? It doesn't matter, those are differences of procedure. The true number has always been ZERO. And all the peaceful peaceloving people of peace know that in their hearts. All the mea culpeas and handwringing about fairness and brotherhood and peace and justice and equality and 'due' are just worthless empty ******** animal noises when push comes to shove. For them, whatever their motivation, it's always been about being present at the end of Israel. And no one will ever convince me that is not the case. Ever.

Mediocrates

08-07-2002, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by cerulean
How about in schools directly sponsored by foreign entities - I've heard of a German Lutheran school in Bethlehem (one female would-be suicide bomber said she had Israeli friends from that school).

What we have to face is that very soon the time for intervention will be pointless. We could add this to the list of things the Palestinians are unable or unwilling to do. But why? What possible outcome could there be by letting them slide on this too.

Can anyone say 'ennabler'?

Either they have the faintest idea what being a country is or they don't. Let them run their schools, let them reinvent themselves let them teach a brand new instant mythology. Who. ****ing. Cares? As long as they don't slither into Israel to mow down people who really cares what they think of themselves?

With freedom comes responsibility. If they demonstrate that they are incapable of teaching their own not to hate and kill and maim then I honestly can't imagine how someone else could do that for them. Do you?

NewsGuy

08-07-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by ayesha
It's interesting to read your views in this thread, although I'm a Lebanese woman and not sure I'm welcome here.
Of course you are welcome here.

We have been fortunate to have opinions discussed from many different points of view, which benefits us all.

I think that word is Marhaba, welcome, Ayesha.

elke

08-07-2002, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Vic
Horrible idea, really. Nothing promotes slobbering self-pity better than such schools

Here is a story on the head of a similar school in Beit Djallah - in German: http://www.n-tv.de/3054704.html (in German, sorry - I can post a summary if anyone is interested). The guy who blew himself up in a falafel stand in Jerusalem has visited it.

I know my German is rusty, but if I understood the article correctly, this is a missionary school for the Palestinian Christians, not exactly the type of thing that Cerulean was referring to.

Also, did I understand it right? Does the main thrust of the article seem to be the concern "what will people think" about the school, because of the suicide murderer who went there? If so, I find it totally disgusting and pathetic! :eek: :confused:

(if not, I apologize for the inference and pledge to learn more German) :o

Vic

08-07-2002, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by elke
I know my German is rusty, but if I understood the article correctly, this is a missionary school for the Palestinian Christians, not exactly the type of thing that Cerulean was referring to.

Also, did I understand it right? Does the main thrust of the article seem to be the concern "what will people think" about the school, because of the suicide murderer who went there? If so, I find it totally disgusting and pathetic!

(if not, I apologize for the inference and pledge to learn more German) Oh, sorry, I should have explained the details :o

The article is from "n-tv", a German news TV company affiliated with CNN, as such it offers mostly reporting with few explicitly stated opinions. (In case someone is interested to find out more, try, for example, "Wilhelm Goller" and "schule" - or "school", but there is less in English on it - in Google).

The school is financed by a Berliner Missionswerk (a loose translation: "Berlin Mission"), but such Missionswerke (sometimes called Diakonisches Werk or Diakoniemission) are general charity spin-offs of the Evangelical Church in Germany. They are AFAIK heavily subsidized by the state and as such not specifically dedicated to proselytizing, despite the name (besides, the school is located in a predominantly Christian neigborhood, isn't it?). I don't know exactly what school Cerulean is referring to, but it sounds rather similar.

Here is the homepage (http://www.berliner-missionswerk.de) of it, btw. They take great pains to explain their moral perfection in poetic detail.

My point was a different one: the role that charitable Westerners play in the education of Palestinian children to permanent victimhood. Goller's "contribution" in this respect is very similar to that of El-Sarraj as we have discussed elsewhere (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16428#post16428).

Yes, he finds no fault with himself or his school, your German isn't as bad as you claim :) . He isn't going to attempt any self-examination, having washed his hands of any responsibility in front of the media.

The article quotes a press release of the Berliner Missionswerk praising the school's success in the "education for peace". Proof of this is the fact that there have been contacts with children from a school in Tel Aviv, fact even the German President found so sensational that he met with the schoolchildren, "who try to build human contacts despite the depply rooted hatred between their people" himself :rolleyes: - just a sample of the sentimental unquestioningly sanctimonous tone they use.

Of course, the institution has not the least doubts on why the attack has happened at all: it is "a desperate act of a solitary perpetrator" ("Verzweiflungstat eines Einzelnen"). The "n-tv" article comments it with the remark that it was hardly possible for the boy to build the explosive belt etc. all on his own, but it doesn't question the crucial point: the presumtion about the motivation. How exactly do they know about the "despair"? Didn't they notice it? Or did they themselves educate him to it? Critical self-examination is unlikely to take place, so much can be sure - it's the bad Zionists, period.

Not that they didn't have good reason to do so before. The article also mentions a boy from the same school (its vocational training branch) getting himself killed while trying to plant a bomb aimed at Israelis. This was two years ago.

Take a look at a report on the school on the homepage of the largest German state TV station under the title "The word 'Palestine' was enough to be put into prison" (http://www.heute.t-online.de/ZDFheute/artikel/0,1367,HOME-0-9914,00.html) too, just to get the "feeling".

I wonder what goes on in the heads of those in charge. They must be sleepwalking. Or maybe all of itwould be a good case study in (post?)colonialist mentality put into practice with deadly consequences.

P.S.: Take a look at the Middle East (http://www.ekibb.com/mission/ausland/nahost.htm) page of the German charity too. They run a lot of schools for Palestinians, one of them in Bethlehem. The sole villain, again, is known in advance.

And here is a reprint (http://www.freunde-palaestinas.de/page/nachrichten/pn42/panzer.htm) of a sobbing article by Wilhelm Goller, the head of the school that appeared in a major conservative German newspaper on March 12, 2002. Israel soldiers are conducting arrests right in front of his school, imagine... He doesn't dwell on the causes for a second.

cerulean

08-08-2002, 06:40 AM

Horrible idea, really. Nothing promotes slobbering self-pity better than such schools.

Sorry - temporary fit of insanity thinking European donors could actually do something helpful :( .

It's possible that the school you describe was the one I was thinking of in the first instance, but I had the location wrong. I don't know how prevalent such schools are.

I'd be curious what types of schools the wealthiest Arab students attend. I suppose those are probably just as propagandized as those for less wealthy students, however.

Mediocrates

08-08-2002, 07:15 AM

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families,

That is the effect, not the cause.

who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers.

The key is 'find themselves'. What does Arafat say? "let them eat cake" (or couscous)?

according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

Most of which they will never get back even if the Israelis swung the door wide open. Because most of that income was labor which has been replaced. But even if some/most of that labor is allowed back in the Israelis will have to pay them less because of their own deflationary pressures.

I see this as pointing indirectly at the heart of the problem. Which is the Palestinians want everything to be just as they demand, sometimes what they demand is the way things used to be. But in the real world that never happens, it's delusional to think so.

What do you think would be a practical response of the Palestinians could not get that labor income back again, ever? A War of Economic Liberation?

Simon

08-08-2002, 09:24 AM

Mediocrates: But even if some/most of that labor is allowed back in the Israelis

Why even allow them in? I never really understood why (in the past) Israel allowed these Palestinians to work in Israel.

Mediocrates

08-08-2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Simon
Mediocrates: But even if some/most of that labor is allowed back in the Israelis

Why even allow them in? I never really understood why (in the past) Israel allowed these Palestinians to work in Israel.

It's cheap labor, no other reason. This is what's bizarre. The Israelis have allowed the Palestinians to work in Israel for years at wages that afford them a functional standard of living. I'm sure someone will scold me and tell me that their standard of living was lower than that of Israelis....so what. That's what cheap labor does. Unlike clicking their ruby shoes together three times this was for them a workable deal. That utter failure and desolation for them is better than slow incremental success speaks volumes about the credibility of anything they say.

American Inca

08-08-2002, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Simon
I never really understood why (in the past) Israel allowed these Palestinians to work in Israel.

Because Israel kicked out the Palestinians in 1948 and murdered thousands which then took flight to the West Bank where millions remained in refugee camps. The Palestinians needed to sustain themselves somehow. The Israelis then took the Palestinians by the neck with the financial yoke to do their menial labor. All so called "democracies" need their low cost, low wage laborers, Israel is no exception. They needed the low cost labor of the Palestinians to keep their financial engine sound. The United States allows Mexican illegals from entering this country, same rule applies in Israel.

NewsGuy

08-08-2002, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by American
Because Israel kicked out the Palestinians in 1948 and murdered thousands which then took flight to the West Bank where millions remained in refugee camps...

I love it when people who represent the exact opposite of what real Americans know to be the truth and what America stands for, still like to name themselves "American" this or the other.

Anyway, your statement is a ridiculous Arab propaganda smear, directly out of Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar's "revised" history books, as close to reality as Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights.

You know very well that the Arabs themselves commanded their brothers to flee from Israel so that the invading Arab armies could more conveniently carry out a Jihad-genocide of the Jews.

You also know that the "refugee" claim is another Arab propaganda invention aimed at insulting the intelligence of Westerners. There are no Arab "refugees," just Arabs reuniting with their brothers in their Arab homelands in places like Lebanon and in the first Palestinian state of Jordan.

Vic

08-08-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by ayesha
israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administrationThere is something schizophrenic when a considerable proportion of Palestinians (apparently) supports mass murder of Israeli Jews in order to get them out of the country and at the same time expects that the very same Israeli Jews provide employment, medical care etc. for the Palestinians, don't you think so too?

Adversary2Arabs

08-08-2002, 02:14 PM

Peace is only possible when the Arabs are secluded in an area of the world where ONLY Arabs can go, and the rest of the world is free from Arabs. Otherwise they will continue their lust and greed for non-Arab controlled lands. Israel and India are just two examples of lands being stolen and then pilliaged at the hands of the Arabs the so called people of peace. OR they are killed off, which isn't going to happen. :(

Mr. Pumps

08-08-2002, 02:27 PM

The situation around the world is STUPID!.

It seems armies are allowing the little agressor to make head way agianst all odds because the leaders of the armed forces does'nt want the Army to look bad infront of the "International community." So instead of being ended immediately and the enemy defeated, like a Army is suppose to do, the conflict drags and drags and drags.

What does that accomplish? NOTHING!.

Only decisive and forthright action is needed to break this status quo cycle over the last 22 month deadlock. The same for Chechnya, Kashmir, Abu sayyaf and so on.

Quick and decisive acton that keeps going, so momentum never gives out.

American Inca

08-08-2002, 04:26 PM

Not really. No "Arab propaganda smear" I tell you fully documented incidences that the Zionist movements from 1948 and beyond perpetrated on the civilian populations of Palestine Arabs. If anything, the U.S. media has been complicit in covering the tracks of Israeli/Jewish terrorism attacks on the Palestinians, here are a few fully documented incidences that you can verify by going to google and doing a search for yourselves:

1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

These attacks made by Jewish terrorists like the Stern Gang later graduated to state sponsored terrorism when the Jewish gangs were integrated into the IDF. If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media.

As you can see by the dates, this was well before the "Suicide bombers" of today and were actually the oppressive acts that gave birth to Arab terrorism. You reap what you sow.

Originally posted by NewsGuy

I love it when people who represent the exact opposite of what real Americans know to be the truth and what America stands for, still like to name themselves "American" this or the other.

Anyway, your statement is a ridiculous Arab propaganda smear, directly out of Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar's "revised" history books, as close to reality as Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights.

You know very well that the Arabs themselves commanded their brothers to flee from Israel so that the invading Arab armies could more conveniently carry out a Jihad-genocide of the Jews.

You also know that the "refugee" claim is another Arab propaganda invention aimed at insulting the intelligence of Westerners. There are no Arab "refugees," just Arabs reuniting with their brothers in their Arab homelands in places like Lebanon and in the first Palestinian state of Jordan.

elke

08-08-2002, 04:39 PM

And your sources are?...

rhodescholar

08-08-2002, 04:50 PM

"Not really. No "Arab propaganda smear" I tell you fully documented incidences that the Zionist movements from 1948 and beyond.."

1) As you are clearly not bright, nor accompanied by facts, let me help you a little. In 1916 there was a massacre of jews by arabs in the British Mandate. Thene there was another one in 1921, and another one in 1929, and another series of them from 1936-1939 during what was called the Arab Uprising.

2) an orgainzation was created In 1922 in Egypt called the Muslim Brotherhood, which was the first arab terrorist group. They were responsible fro many, many murders, until finally they were put down hard - using methods the arabs would be outraged if they saw them applied by israel - by the current egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak.

3) All of the items you mention, many of which are simply names of places like "Gaza 1956", which are of course meaningless, took place DECADES AFTER the arab progroms against jews in what would become israel.

4) since u are a clear anti-semite, cna you even define for us what zionism is?

Please do further research before making a fool of yourself again.

"If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media."

What media is that, friend? The same media that ignores 2 million murdered christians in the sudan in the last 5 years but somehow, magically controlled by jews, would keep a relatively minor conflict directly in the front headlines year after year? Think for a change, friend, if the jews controlled the media, why would the other 35 ongoing civil wars around the world right now get barely a mention, while jews controlling the media KEEP this pal/israle conflict in the headlines?

Notice how then this crushes the other lie i am sure you like to propagate, where the israelis are ethnically cleansing the pals out of their country right? If this was so, and the jews controlled the media, why would they be allowing the press to focus on this conflict day after day? Wouldnt they suppress it, so you never hear about it?

"As you can see by the dates, this was well before the "Suicide bombers" of today and were actually the oppressive acts that gave birth to Arab terrorism. You reap what you sow."]

LOL. Read above, friend. The arabs taught the world anti-semitism, and are now trying to teach everyone terrorism. And they became experts at it DECADES BEFORE israle was founded in 1948.

Dont you just hate the facts?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Mediocrates

08-08-2002, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by American
the U.S. media has been complicit in covering the tracks of Israeli/Jewish terrorism attacks

Not to mention that whole Christ killing thing back in '33....

American Inca

08-08-2002, 06:23 PM

To criticize Israel is not being anti-Semitic. That is what we are lead to believe by the powerful Jewish lobbies all over the world. We must stand up to the repressive methods and racist nature of Zionism. Zionism is equivalent to South African Apartheid and was condemned in the conference on racism in Durban South Africa last year. If anything, the European Jews that took control of Palestine by force, murder and deceptive tactics are the true anti-Semites because the Arab people are the seed of Abraham as well whereas the European Jewry that occupies and controls Palestine have not connection, historical or otherwise to that area of the world. Plain and simple, even some sects of Judaism condemn Zionism. Even Albert Einstein was against it.

Originally posted by rhodescholar
"Not really. No "Arab propaganda smear" I tell you fully documented incidences that the Zionist movements from 1948 and beyond.."

1) As you are clearly not bright, nor accompanied by facts, let me help you a little. In 1916 there was a massacre of jews by arabs in the British Mandate. Thene there was another one in 1921, and another one in 1929, and another series of them from 1936-1939 during what was called the Arab Uprising.

2) an orgainzation was created In 1922 in Egypt called the Muslim Brotherhood, which was the first arab terrorist group. They were responsible fro many, many murders, until finally they were put down hard - using methods the arabs would be outraged if they saw them applied by israel - by the current egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak.

3) All of the items you mention, many of which are simply names of places like "Gaza 1956", which are of course meaningless, took place DECADES AFTER the arab progroms against jews in what would become israel.

4) since u are a clear anti-semite, cna you even define for us what zionism is?

Please do further research before making a fool of yourself again.

"If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media."

What media is that, friend? The same media that ignores 2 million murdered christians in the sudan in the last 5 years but somehow, magically controlled by jews, would keep a relatively minor conflict directly in the front headlines year after year? Think for a change, friend, if the jews controlled the media, why would the other 35 ongoing civil wars around the world right now get barely a mention, while jews controlling the media KEEP this pal/israle conflict in the headlines?

Notice how then this crushes the other lie i am sure you like to propagate, where the israelis are ethnically cleansing the pals out of their country right? If this was so, and the jews controlled the media, why would they be allowing the press to focus on this conflict day after day? Wouldnt they suppress it, so you never hear about it?

"As you can see by the dates, this was well before the "Suicide bombers" of today and were actually the oppressive acts that gave birth to Arab terrorism. You reap what you sow."]

LOL. Read above, friend. The arabs taught the world anti-semitism, and are now trying to teach everyone terrorism. And they became experts at it DECADES BEFORE israle was founded in 1948.

Dont you just hate the facts?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Mediocrates

08-08-2002, 06:29 PM

elke

08-08-2002, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates

ok we've all had a chuckle but this is borderline clinical paranoia.

yeah, it is.

Which electronicintifadah clone do you think s/he swiped all this from? Or was it from the real article?

Mediocrates

08-08-2002, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by elke

Which electronicintifadah clone do you think s/he swiped all this from? Or was it from the real article?

sounds like the home grown american storm front variety

American Inca

08-08-2002, 06:48 PM

What do you question? I think I can provide some articles to back up what I'm saying.

Originally posted by elke

Which electronicintifadah clone do you think s/he swiped all this from? Or was it from the real article?

elke

08-08-2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by American
What do you question? I think I can provide some articles to back up what I'm saying.

All of it.

American Inca

08-08-2002, 06:55 PM

Up to 10,000 demonstrators chanted anti-Israeli and anti-U.S. slogans as they marched through the centre of Durban on Friday. Reuters reported scuffles when armed police stopped them from delivering petitions to the racism conference.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/31/racism.talks/

That's an account from the mainstream press, there are others from independent sources that say the same thing. 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, but you MUST realize that you are being lied to by the Israeli and U.S. government and their obedient media shills.

rhodescholar

08-08-2002, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by American
To criticize Israel is not being anti-Semitic. That is what we are lead to believe by the powerful Jewish lobbies all over the world. We must stand up to the repressive methods and racist nature of Zionism. Zionism is equivalent to South African Apartheid and was condemned in the conference on racism in Durban South Africa last year. If anything, the European Jews that took control of Palestine by force, murder and deceptive tactics are the true anti-Semites because the Arab people are the seed of Abraham as well whereas the European Jewry that occupies and controls Palestine have not connection, historical or otherwise to that area of the world. Plain and simple, even some sects of Judaism condemn Zionism. Even Albert Einstein was against it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

#1 - If you want to establish ANY credibility here, you respond DIRECTLY to the points made, not sidestep/ignore them and hope they wont matter. You lost many points already.

#2 - referring to the Durban fiasco shows either you really arent intelligent, or are badly misinformed. The UN itself has spent considerable efforts to prevent a debacle like that from EVER happening again. Read Mary robinson's apologies to the Jewish people and to the West in general for the disgraceful, disgusting and despicable hijacking of the conference by the arabs in their racism and hatred of all others.

Until you address the points i made above in this post, as well as my other one directed at you, i will consider you a pure anti-semite and fool. I urge all others to ignore this apparent TROLL who shows all signs of coming here merely to stir the pot and offer nothing of substance or value.

elke

08-08-2002, 07:04 PM

rhodescholar

08-08-2002, 07:09 PM

rhodescholar

08-08-2002, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by American

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/08/31/racism.talks/

That's an account from the mainstream press, there are others from independent sources that say the same thing. 10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, but you MUST realize that you are being lied to by the Israeli and U.S. government and their obedient media shills.

Another brilliant move by posting this article. Let me show everyone here some quotes from it, that absolutely undermine your points:

"The United States and Canada have only sent
low-level delegations because of strongly
anti-Israeli language in the draft declaration that
followed weeks of haggling between diplomats
in Geneva. "

Uhhhhhh, sounds like this conference is what many people might call. a set-up.

"Up to 10,000 demonstrators chanted anti-Israeli and anti-U.S. slogans as they
marched through the centre of Durban on Friday. Reuters reported scuffles
when armed police stopped them from delivering petitions to the racism
conference.

The draft declaration does not equate Zionism with racism but it says: "Foreign
occupation founded on settlements ... (is) a new kind of apartheid, a crime
against humanity."

Arafat told a panel meeting of leaders: "This brutality and arrogance are moved
by a mentality of superiority that practises racism and racial discrimination, that
adopts ethnic cleansing. "

10,000 demonstators? like the ones Saddam forces at gunpoint to flow into the Baghdad squares, or in Iran who are paid to be there?

And i guess you are not aware of Arafat, one of the great mass murderes of the 20th centruy, magically remade thru arab propaganda into a "freedom fighter," after being expelled by Hafez Assad in Syria, ran into Lebanon and began killing/tormenting that country's population, starting a civil war. When arafat was in lebanon in the 1970s his animal thugs required tolls by the lebanese for passage from one village to the next, demanded "protection" payments, and killed any who oppsed their coutnry within a country. But none of this is of interest to the arab liars, propagandists, or antisemites like yourself - BECASUE THE FACTS NEVER ARE.

And the fact that none of the anti-semites like yourself, who seem so intent on israel's "occupation", which is none of the sort given they won the land in a DEFENSIVE WAR, but mention nothingof the illegal Syrian occupation of Lebanon.

UN resolution 520 calls for the exit of Syria from Lebanon, in 1989. Why dont u mention that? i thought u "cared" about oppressed people?

American Inca

08-08-2002, 07:25 PM

What we have to do first is establish that I am only advocating the peaceful desolation of the Israeli state and not eliminating Jews from the face of the earth. Any and all people have the right to practice whatever faith they want if it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. To create a "Jewish" only state impinges on the rights of those that the state displaced and is therefore at the root of the problems in Palestine. It's surprising that Israel was created for the safety of the Jewish people yet Jews live prosperous and safe lives outside Israel. In fact, the Israeli government has little regard for the safety of Jewish people because it puts them in harms way in the "settlements" which are contested lands and are practically a war zone. If the Israeli government really cared about Jewish safety, they would evacuate ALL of the illegal settlements and end their barbaric occupation of the Palestinians. Because the settlers are nothing more than pawns in this whole conflict just goes to show that the Israeli government has little regard for its own people.

Before the Zionist gained control of Palestine, Jews and Arabs lived in this area side by side for hundreds of years. As the Zionist state was forming, even Jews of Arab decent where expelled from their homes along with Muslims and Christians. The new colonial state of Israel was founded mostly by Eastern European Jews that had little regard for the people of the area.

As to the person asking for sources, I challenge you NOT to take my word for it and do some research on your own. Some of the most outspoken critics of Zionism are Jews! Not some electronic "Intifada" like you are trying to trivialize. Here's a few key words to start digging into the suppressed past of Israel:

"Stern Gang"
"U.S.S. Liberty"
"Evils of Zionism"
"Jewish terrorism"

There are thousands of articles, some by what you consider "credible" news sources and writers and some that you may question, but the all say the same thing.

In my research, I have found one online book a good starting point; that would be the book by Jewish writer Ralph Schoenman, you can read it here:

The Hidden History of Zionism (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/index.htm)

American Inca

08-08-2002, 07:29 PM

Jewish Criticism
of Zionism

"Albert Einstein - "'I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish State. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish State,with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain'...

"Professor Erich Fromm, a noted Jewish writer and thinker, [stated]...'In general international law, the principle holds true that no citizen loses his property or his rights of citizenship; and the citizenship right is de facto a right to which the Arabs in Israel have much more legitimacy than the Jews. Just because the Arabs fled? Since when is that punishable by confiscation of property, and by being barred from returning to the land on which a people's forefathers have lived for generations? Thus, the claim of the Jews to the land of Israel cannot be a realistic claim. If all nations would suddenly claim territory in which their forefathers had lived two thousand years ago, this world would be a madhouse...I believe that, politically speaking, there is only one solution for Israel, namely, the unilateral acknowledgement of the obligation of the State towards the Arabs - not to use it as a bargaining point, but to acknowledge the complete moral obligation of the Israeli State to its former inhabitants of Palestine'...

"Martin Buber - 'Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of causeless hatred...It is bound to bring complete ruin upon us. Only then will the old and young in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought here from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruits of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather; and in whose cities that we robbed we put up houses of education, charity, and prayer, while we babble and rave about being the "People of the Book" and the "light of the nations"'...

"In an article published in the Washington Post of 3 October 1978, Rabbi Hirsch (of Jerusalem) is reported to have declared: 'The 12th principle of our faith, I believe, is that the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiled who are dispersed throughout the nations of the world. Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism. Zionism wishes to define the Jewish people as a nationalistic entity. The Zionists say, in effect, 'Look here, God. We do not like exile. Take us back, and if you don't, we'll just roll up our sleeves and take ourselves back.' 'The Rabbi continues: 'This, of course, is heresy. The Jewish people are charged by Divine oath not to force themselves back to the Holy Land against the wishes of those residing there.'" Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
Jewish Criticism - continued

"A Jewish Home in Palestine built up on bayonets and oppression [is] not worth having, even though it succeed, whereas the very attempt to build it up peacefully, cooperatively, with understanding, education, and good will, [is] worth a great deal even though the attempt should fail." Rabbi Judah L. Magnes, first president of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, quoted in "Like All The Nations?", ed. Brinner & Rischin.
Martin Buber on what Zionism should have been

"The first fact is that at the time when we entered into an alliance (an alliance, I admit, that was not well defined) with a European state and we provided that state with a claim to rule over Palestine, we made no attempt to reach an agreement with the Arabs of this land regarding the basis and conditions for the continuation of Jewish settlement.

This negative approach caused those Arabs who thought about and were concerned about the future of their people to see us increasingly not as a group which desired to live in cooperation with their people but as something in the nature of uninvited guests and agents of foreign interests (at the time I explicitly pointed out this fact).

"The second fact is that we took hold of the key economic positions in the country without compensating the Arab population, that is to say without allowing their capital and their labor a share in our economic activity. Paying the large landowners for purchases made or paying compensation to tenants on the land is not the same as compensating a people. As a result, many of the more thoughtful Arabs viewed the advance of Jewish settlement as a kind of plot designed to dispossess future generations of their people of the land necessary for their existence and development. Only by means of a comprehensive and vigorous economic policy aimed at organizing and developing common interests would it have been possible to contend with this view and its inevitable consequences. This we did not do.

"The third fact is that when a possibility arose that the Mandate would soon be terminated, not only did we not propose to the Arab population of the country that a joint Jewish Arab administration be set up in its place, we went ahead and demanded rule over the whole country (the Biltmore program) as a fitting political sequel to the gains we had already made. By this step, we with our own hands provided our enemies in the Arab camp with aid and comfort of the most valuable sort - the support of public opinion - without which the military attack launched against us would not have been possible. For it now appears to the Arab populace that in carrying on the activities we have been engaged in for years, in acquiring land and in working and developing the land, we were systematically laying the ground work for gaining control of the whole country." Martin Buber, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr

Israel's new historians now refute myths of the founding of the state

"Since the 1980's,.....Israeli scholars [have] concurred with their Palestinian counterparts that Zionism was...carried out as a pure colonialist act against the local population: a mixture of exploitation and expropriation...

"They were motivated to present a revisionist point of view to a large extent by the declassification of relevant archival material in Israel, Britain and the United States. [For example,]...
Challenging the Myth of Annihilation - The new historiographical picture is a fundamental challenge to the official history that says the Jewish community faced possible annihilation on the eve of the 1948 war. Archival documents expose a fragmented Arab world wrought by dismay and confusion and a Palestinian community that possessed no military ability with which to frighten the Jews...

Israel's responsibility for Refugees - The Jewish military advantage was translated into an act of mass expulsion of more than half of the Palestinian population. The Israeli forces, apart from rare exceptions, expelled the Palestinians from every village and town they occupied. In some cases, this expulsion was accompanied by massacres [of civilians] as was the case in Lydda, Ramleh, Dawimiyya, Sa'sa, Ein Zietun and other places. Expulsion also was accompanied by rape, looting and confiscation [of Palestinian land and property]...

The Myth of Arab Intransigence - [The U.N.] convened a peace conference in Lausanne, Switzerland in the spring of 1949. Before the conference, the U.N. General Assembly adopted a resolution that in effect replaced the November 1947 partition resolution. This new resolution, Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948, accepted [U.N. Mediator] Bernadotte's triangular basis for a comprehensive peace: an unconditional return of all the refugees to their homes, the internationalization of Jerusalem, and the partitioning of Palestine into two states. This time, several Arab states and various representatives of the Palestinians accepted this as a basis for negotiations, as did the United States, which was running the show at Lausanne...Prime Minister David Ben Gurion strongly opposed any peace negotiations along these lines...The only reason he was willing to allow Israel to participate in the peace conference was his fear of an angry American reaction...The road to peace was not taken due to Israeli, not Arab, intransigence.

Conclusions - The new Israeli historians...wish to rectify what their research reveals as past evils...There was a high price exacted in creating a Jewish state in Palestine. And there were victims, the plight of whom still fuels the fire of conflict in Palestine." Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe in "The Link", January, 1998.

"It is no longer my country"

"For me, this business called the state of Israel is finished...I can't bear to see it anymore, the injustice that is done to the Arabs, to the Beduins. All kinds of scum coming from America and as soon as they get off the plane taking over lands in the territories and claiming it for their own...I can't do anything to change it. I can only go away and let the whole lot go to hell without me." Israeli actress (and household name) Rivka Mitchell, quoted in Israeli peace movement periodical, "The Other Israel", August 1998.

The effect of Zionism on American Jews.

"The corruption of Judaism, as a religion of universal values, through its politicization by Zionism and by the replacement of dedication to Israel for dedication to God and the moral law, is what has alienated so many young Americans who, searching for spiritual meaning in life, have found little in the organized Jewish community." Allan Brownfield, "Issues of the American Council for Judaism", Sp

rhodescholar

08-08-2002, 07:55 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by American
[B]It's surprising that Israel was created for the safety of the Jewish people yet Jews live prosperous and safe lives outside Israel.

Given the FACt that you cant stop lying, I will no longer read nor respond to your posts. "Proserous and safe"? Ever heard of the Holocaust moron?

"Before the Zionist gained control of Palestine, "

Another LIE. Buy a history book genius, the UN CREATED israel in a 1947 vote.

"Jews and Arabs lived in this area side by side for hundreds of years. "

Stop lying and read my posts. I stated many pogroms carried out by arabs from 1900 forward.

"The new colonial state of Israel was founded mostly by Eastern European Jews that had little regard for the people of the area."

Another lie. There has been a jewish presence in israel for thousands of years, long before anyone else was there. Second, until arabs began to move in to take advantage of the burgeoning jewish presence turn of the 20th century, only nomadic arab tribes - few and far between - were there.

"As to the person asking for sources, I challenge you NOT to take my word for it"

Who would?

"and do some research on your own."

You should talk.

"U.S.S. Liberty"

I know everything there is to know about it. Sorry History Channel historian, there is no conspiray there, much as u Stormfront trash would like to believe.

"There are thousands of articles,"

Written by fellow jew haters like yourself.

"In my research,"

You wouldnt know what research is if it landed on you.

AND AGAIN, YOU AVOID ALL THE POINTS I MAKE IN MY POSTS. I WONDER WHY LOL.

American Inca

08-08-2002, 08:07 PM

Hear the accounts from the sailors on the U.S.S. Liberty, they WERE there, you weren't. These brave men set up a memorial website where you can hear, in their own words, what really happened on the U.S.S. Liberty:

http://www.ussliberty.org

American Inca

08-08-2002, 08:17 PM

Written by fellow jew haters like yourself.

I'm not a "Jew hater." I think that the only way for peace in Palestine is the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel. The U.N. created this monster in 1947 and I'm sure with enough pressure, it can undo most, if not all of the damage. If we can bomb Saddam for not abiding by U.N. resolutions, then why are we so powerless when it comes to Israel.

I have no hate in my heart for Jewish people, I'm just giving them a warning, don't tune out what most of the world is telling you. By not hearing and heeding the warnings given, you are creating anti-Semitism that will inevitably end in something horrible for the Jews as a race. By going against the will of G-d, you are creating your own hell. G-d has promised to deliver the "chosen" people only when he is ready. The creation of Israel was a perversion and a sin in the eyes of G-d and will be punished accordingly. Heed the warnings.

Formula

08-08-2002, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by American

I'm not a "Jew hater." I think that the only way for peace in Palestine is the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel. The U.N. created this monster in 1947 and I'm sure with enough pressure, it can undo most, if not all of the damage. If we can bomb Saddam for not abiding by U.N. resolutions, then why are we so powerless when it comes to Israel.

I have no hate in my heart for Jewish people, I'm just giving them a warning, don't tune out what most of the world is telling you. By not hearing and heeding the warnings given, you are creating anti-Semitism that will inevitably end in something horrible for the Jews as a race. By going against the will of G-d, you are creating your own hell. G-d has promised to deliver the "chosen" people only when he is ready. The creation of Israel was a perversion and a sin in the eyes of G-d and will be punished accordingly. Heed the warnings.

Ok, so all jews should just leave israel, and wait a couple of thousand years when God is ready to deliver?

What a crock. :rolleyes:

L@mplighterM

08-08-2002, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by American

I'm not a "Jew hater." I think that the only way for peace in Palestine is the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel. The U.N. created this monster in 1947 and I'm sure with enough pressure, it can undo most, if not all of the damage. If we can bomb Saddam for not abiding by U.N. resolutions, then why are we so powerless when it comes to Israel.

I have no hate in my heart for Jewish people, I'm just giving them a warning, don't tune out what most of the world is telling you. By not hearing and heeding the warnings given, you are creating anti-Semitism that will inevitably end in something horrible for the Jews as a race. By going against the will of G-d, you are creating your own hell. G-d has promised to deliver the "chosen" people only when he is ready. The creation of Israel was a perversion and a sin in the eyes of G-d and will be punished accordingly. Heed the warnings.

There wouldnâ€™t be anti Semitism in the world if there werenâ€™t any Jews.

Most of the problem in the ME can be traced to the fact that Israel wasnâ€™t given enough land in the ME. They should have ended up with SA for starters in fact why not the whole ME.
The UN Resolutions imposed against Iraq are quite different than the ones pertaining to Israel. Iâ€™m not going to spell out the differences because you seem rather blind to me.

Gilgamesh

08-09-2002, 01:07 AM

Question to forum members.

"American" is an anti semitic creature, who clearly does nothing other then cut and paste from arab propoganda web sites. How come IT keeps on posting?

We can all go into the many anti semtic web sites ourselves, if "know thy enemy" is our goal in mind. Why do we have to tolrate IT here?

We have a sample of his views, you can put them in the archive.

elke

08-09-2002, 02:12 AM

American,

Everything you have posted came from an electronicintifadah clone (by the way, intifadah is not trivial, because it has taken many lives. Not as many as some other conflicts in the world - e.g. Algeria, - but nevertheless too many. However, recognizing propaganda and lies is essential for anyone claiming to do "research").

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have seen the sites you've mentioned, and found them severely lacking in either integrity or factual information. They were, however, rich in garbage content - which can be debunked easily by chasing down the actual sources for what they say.

A good start for your research on your own would be here:
http://www.us-israel.org/

elke

08-09-2002, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by American
Hear the accounts from the sailors on the U.S.S. Liberty, they WERE there, you weren't. These brave men set up a memorial website where you can hear, in their own words, what really happened on the U.S.S. Liberty:

http://www.ussliberty.org

It's conjecture, inference, projection, and other such concepts that would describe what's on this site. How do you expect "these brave men" to have known what went through the minds of the Israelis? You weren't there either, so how do you know what "really happened"?

Kahz

08-09-2002, 02:54 AM

So, since a place is in the Middle East, when Jews immigrate to it they are "invaders", but when Arabs immigrate to it they automatically become "natives" and when Jews make their little state they are stealing it from these so-called "natives".

What I find funny is that you write about all these massacres and Jewish terror attacks but pay no attention to Arab terror attacks and massacred that happened before Israel was created and before the occupation.

Regarding the USS Liberty, nobody is denying that the ship was deliberately attacked, but being a sailor on the ship does not give you the capability to read the minds on whether the Israelis knew that it was an American ship when they attacked it.

What about the Jews expelled from Arab lands? Why all the fuss about Palestinians being forced out but none about Jews? Selective ommision?

----------------------------------------
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/june02/forgotten.html

The Forgotten Exodus: The expulsion of the Jews from Arab lands and the Israeli-Arab dispute. That was the theme of a conference held recently in Paris, under the aegis of the Jewish European Congress.
Some 1,500 people attended the conference, including Israeli, French, American and Canadian university professors, historians, lawyers and writers, among them Quebec writer NaÃ¯m Kattan and Liberal MP Irwin Cotler.

At a time when the Palestinians are demanding the â€œright of returnâ€ to present-day Israel, the conference aimed to bring to light a tragic and little-known episode in Sephardi Jewish history that had been repressed for ideological reasons by everyone involved.

Shmuel Trigano, a sociology professor at the University of Paris-X-Nanterre and conference's main organizer, said the symposium was also a way to offer dignity to a group that had its way of life interrupted and its continuity shattered.

Trigano, the founder and director of the Jewish studies college of the Alliance Israelite Universelle and of PardÃ¨s, the European journal of Jewish studies and culture, as well as the author of some 30 books, was interviewed by The CJN shortly after the conference.

Canadian Jewish News: What was the main purpose of the conference?

Shmuel Trigano: The main purpose was to restore the moral dignity of the State of Israel and its historic truth. For several decades, the State of Israel has been charged with congenital guilt, because, according to its detractors, it chased out a nation in order to settle in its land. People are going out of their way to depict Israel and the cause of the Jewish people as a state founded on the dispossession of the Palestinian people, as a flagrant injustice.
They have, however, forgotten that 60 per cent of Israeli Jews were also chased out of their native lands and were forced to leave. The Palestinians' invocation of the right of return, since before the latest intifadah, has reawakened our memory. A memory that has been hidden and repressed has returned to the Jews of the Arab world, to the descendants of the 900,000 people who, from the 1940s on, had to leave the countries they had been living in for a very long time â€“ because they had no choice â€“ while leaving behind all their possessions. Like the Palestinians, these Sephardi Jews still held the keys to their houses as they left in haste.

CJN: Is the forced expulsion of the Jews from Arab countries comparable to that of the Palestinians, then?
Shmuel Trigano: Yes. There was an exchange of populations, as 600,000 Jews displaced from Arab countries immigrated to Israel, on the one hand, and on the other, 540,000 Palestinians displaced after the creation of Israel found themselves in several Arab countries. Those 600,000 Jews were stripped of all their belongings. They too lived in â€œtransit camps.â€ We have a battle to fight on an international level, because this chapter of the history of the Jews from Arab lands has been completely hidden.
The fact that this indisputable historic reality is unknown allows the Palestinians to present themselves today as absolute victims.

CJN: Is there a pattern to the departure of the Jews from the Arab countries?
Shmuel Trigano: Yes. In some countries, the Jews found themselves excluded through legal actions that led to the loss of their rights as citizens, and the exclusions forced them into exile. In Iraq, there were even military expulsion programs, transferring people by truck through Jordan. In Yemen, the Jewish community was given a short period to leave before all emigration was forbidden. They were stripped of all their possessions by a subterfuge developed by the local authorities. In Egypt, the Jews were gradually excluded from any economic life, then they were interned, and their property was confiscated, to the point where life had become a hell. The Egyptian Jews also left with only a suitcase, leaving behind all their personal belongingsâ€¦ In other cases, the Jews left because they were afraid and felt they had no longer any future where they were.
CJN: The Palestinian refugees are insistent today in claiming financial compensation from Israel. Shouldn't the Jews who were forced to leave the Arab countries also have the right to financial compensation?
Shmuel Trigano: Absolutely. Financial compensation must also be paid to the Jews who had to leave with only a suitcase and left behind all their possessions. There is no reason to compensate the Palestinians and not the Jews under the pretext that the Jews may be pariahs, wanderers, and that it was therefore quite normal to expel them, to have them leave behind all their possessions.
CJN: How many Jews are still in the Muslim Arab countries?
Shmuel Trigano: About 10,000 Jews still live in the Arab-Muslim world, mainly in Morocco, and, to a lesser degree, in Tunisia. There are also a few thousand in Iran. The Iranian Jews cannot emigrate. Otherwise, the entire Arab world has been emptied of its Jews. We have to remember that what happened to 60 per cent of Israel's Jews is directly related to the history of the Arab nation states. When the Arab nation states were created in the Islamic Arab world, there was no longer any place for the Jews in those states.

danholo

08-09-2002, 03:44 AM

"American" is nothing more than an antisemite.

He believes in the Khazar theory and everything else he has posted is the same antisemitic yimyam that you find at any antisemitic site out there.
All of these so-called "facts" are pure propaganda BS. It's stupid to even go talking to this man, since he is simply blinded by his hate and will stop at nothing to slander Jews.
American probably belongs to the KKK.

Kahz

08-09-2002, 04:19 AM

What is the Khazar theory?

10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

Wow. So the accuracy of a claim has to do with how many people support it? Heh. Let's run with that for a minute ...

In 1991 all of the non-Arab nations (besides 3) took back their declaration of Zionism = Racism. That leaves non-Arab nations in the majority. According to your own theory, that makes you wrong! 100 nations can't be wrong on this issue!

victot

08-09-2002, 06:03 AM

american,

be careful what jews you list as being against zionism.

ALbert Einstein was always pro-zionism. i think it was that he didnt agree with all the aspects of, but he still hailed himself as being pro-zionism.
HE WAS EVEN OFFERED TO BE PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL AT ONE POINT.

from http://www.thewjc.org/sermons/einstein.htm
Throughout his life, Einstein identified with Zionism. He wrote extensively about Zionism and attended many functions devoted to Zionist affairs. He was a friend of Israel's first President Dr. Chaim Weitzman and joined him on a highly successful fund-raising tour of the United States aimed at buying land in Israel and in funding the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. When Weitzman died, Prime Minister David Ben Gurion asked Einstein to accept the Presidency of Israel. Einstein declined the honor, saying he was deeply touched by the offer but did not feel suited for the position. It is illustrative of his commitment to Zionism, that when he went to the hospital for what proved to he his final days, he took with him his notes for a television address he was to give on the occasion of Israel's seventh anniversary.

Albert Einstein on Zionism
â€œZionism springs from an even deeper motive than Jewish suffering. It is rooted in a Jewish spiritual tradition whose maintenance and development are for Jews the basis of their continued existence as a community.â€

you challenged people to look up various words which villafy zionism and israel.
i challenge you to understand something...

israel belonged to jews before it belonged to arabs. When jews were FORCEBLY expelled from the land in the 1st century A.D, they have always dreamed and prayed of returning.

In the early seventh century a new religion came blazing out of Arabia fueled with the word of the prophet Mohammed and afire with his admonition to spread it. Islam (meaning "submission" or "surrender" to Allah's will) was seen by Mohammed as a continuation of Judaism and Christianity, and his God was the same as in both the Old and New Testaments. His followers spread quickly throughout the middle east (and much further). Except for several years of Christian control during the Crusades, Palestine remained in Muslim hands, first Arab then Turk, for 1300 years until the end of World War One.
Arabs used Islam for conquering half the world & for creating an Arab Empire thus making Islam a trade mark of Arabs.

Keeping this in mind, after 2 thousand years, jews were able to conquer the land back...
why should jews feel particularly guilty? arabs control hundreds of times more lands then jews, and jews controlled the land first, and prayed every day from exile for returning to it.

under your morality, it suddenly became COMPLETELY immoral for jews to get THEIR land back?
I understand compromise, and i understand that there are some extenuating circumstances, and thusly perhaps a deal could be reached where jews HALVE their tiny and holy ancestrial homeland, to give Arabs an additional 0.03% land which they can call theirs. but, a land in the middle east that is called israel that is mostly jewish, with jerusalem as its capital, you can't really tell me this is unfair.
i challenge you to explain to my why it is wrong.

these are the words of the israeli national anthem, called
"The Hope"

In The Jewish heart A Jewish spirit still sings,
And the eyes look east Toward Zion
Our hope is not lost,
Our hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem

here is its explanation on
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/hatikva.html

"During the two thousand years of exile, the Jewish people always kept a heartfelt prayer in their hearts for return to Israel. They said special daily prayers for return and they celebrated the holidays according to Israeli seasons and calendar. This is the message of the Hatikvah's first stanza. Zion is another name for Israel and Jerusalem. When the Jewish people pray their eyes, hearts and prayers are directed toward Israel and Jerusalem. For many long painful years, the land of Israel was in the hands of foreigners. The Jews who lived in Palestine were not free. Yet their hope for freedom and independence never died. The second stanza of the Hatikva recalls the undying hope of Jews through the generation, Jews who lived in other countries and Jews who had remained in Palestine.
When we sing the Hatikva together, we are doing much more than just singing a nice melody. We are making a promise that we will never forget the undying Jewish hope for independence and that we will do all within our power to help the State of Israel prosper."

Anyways, you don't have to be jewish to understand that israel and zionism aren't wrong...
even if there are words which you can look up to show israel isn't always perfect.

Mediocrates

08-09-2002, 06:40 AM

At any rate I just look on anecdotes from 'American' the same way I look at traitors like 'American' who with every word spit on and despoil everything it is to be an American and everything it stands for. There's always a few people who for whatever reason don't get it or hate their own country or want attention or power or whatnot. It doesn't make it good or insightful but merely curious. This board has a few self professed antizionist non religious Jews who rationalize it in different ways. Bully for them, but they don't respect themselves they can't expect anyone else to respect them either.

NewsGuy

08-09-2002, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by American
...here are a few fully documented incidences that you can verify by going to google and doing a search for yourselves:
...If anything you've been lied to by the Zionist controlled media.
I'm really going to have to report you to Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar for rummaging through their personal libraries when they weren't looking and pasting their material here. Don't you know that it's bad manners to ransack one's cave when they're on the run? :D

I've rarely seen more a more ridiculous Islamic propaganda smear than your posts, which I'll repeat, are a typical attempt to insult the intelligence of Americans and other Westerners.

You reap what you sow.

Now, that's a good thing for you to remember to write down and tie it to your finger, so that when Israel drops another 1 ton bomb on a Hamas warlord you can take out your note and read it to yourself in between the Friday afternoon incitement sessions at your local mosque.

You know, I have seen many terrorism supporters like you make excuse after excuse to try to sell Islamic terrorism to Americans even after the damage done to us by the Arabs on 9/11.

It's Israel's fault, it's America's fault, it's Western civilization's fault, it's the Hindu's fault, it's the Budhist's fault. Zionism is evil, because the Jews have no right to live in the Jewish homeland, etc. I've heard all this stupid babbling by now and your opinions that are based on Islamic terrorism dogma are no different.

But I'll tell you one thing, most other pro-Palestinian activists have done a much better job of backing their views in this forum than you, because they know better than to try to pass off Mullah Omar's anti-Zionism drivel as fact.

Your "sources" are really an insult to people's intelligence. Maybe it would work better on the pre-schoolers on the Yahoo boards, but you're way out of your league here with that stale old pro-terrorism propaganda.

Mr. Pumps

08-09-2002, 09:12 AM

Now back to the topic.

No peace can ever be achieve if the small ragtag groups willing to do anything to acheve their goal are allowed to spread and become more courageous from the lack of assertion put up by a Nation's Army.

Do you think Hamas or Islamic Jihad would have been able to launch 72 suicide attacks and countless shooting attacks if from day one the the IDF top brass figured that you need to build INSTANT momentum and KEEP that moment going. I am sure there would have been peace by know if the IDF 800 pound gorilla squashed the Palestinian turtle with all it's weight by now in one huge attack.

Nations figure that out that without immediate, surprise, planned out, decisive, effective action by a army agianst a group or foriegn enemy, Peace will never come. Groups like Hamas and Fatah elevated themselves with every attack and gesture of defiance. So the Pattern keeps going.

Bottomline: Without a massive strategic operation of all territory with Gaza and the West Bank, all those Terrorist Palestinian groups will go on and contiune unabatted even if members are rounded up and arrested.

These groups will continue even with a few men left, so all the members have to be exterminated in one gigantic swoop.

American Inca

08-09-2002, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Formula

Ok, so all jews should just leave israel, and wait a couple of thousand years when God is ready to deliver?

What a crock. :rolleyes:

danholo

08-09-2002, 02:09 PM

Hey mr. Polytheist,

We are in Israel. That is G-d's will. Everything is.
It is our choice to follow the Torah.
The Judaistic explanation for suffering in Israel is, indeed, because Jews do not choose to abide by Torah.
In the end we will follow it, but you nor any other antisemite can tell us what to do.

You are a religious antisemite, who belives that we Jews are from Satan. Well, unlike your beliefs, we believe in one G-d, not gods.
In Judaism, Satan is an angel created by G-d that tempts human's to do evil things. We have not done evil things and we still don't do "evil" in a grander scale. No, we do not follow "Lucifer" and we never have.
I believe that in Christianity, if you do not believe in G-d, you are tempted by some other deity called "Satan" or "Lucifer".
In Judaism, it is us who choose to follow G-d and no other being is involved. It is our will and our will alone.

In Judaism, Jews can not prevail in Israel if Jews do not choose to follow the Torah. But Jews are the only people that can prosper there. If there were only Arabs, it would still be a desolate desert.
G-d has clearly given us the go ahead to Israel and a new chance to start acting by G-d's will.

Anyways, there is no point in debating with you, because
1. Most of your "facts" are already refuted propaganda.
2. You started a religious debate.
3. Most here are not religious and will laugh at you.
4. Beliefs can not be debated about since your belief is, well, what it is, and it can not be changed.

Shouldn't you be at your annual Christian White Power meeting by now?

Good day.

danholo

08-09-2002, 02:37 PM

American:

G-d told Moses, "Your people have corrupted themselves" and then cast out the Nation of Israel from the Promised Land, did you not learn from your first mistakes?

Have you not learned that an antisemite will not get any respect from Jews?

How could've G-d told this to Moses, since the Israelites were not even in the Promised Land yet!?
Your religious knowledge is lacking.

bluefish

08-09-2002, 03:07 PM

First of all i just want to clarify i expected no less from American- i'm sure it was very hard for him keeping religion out of this debate for this long, when he had his kind of "sources".

Seriously now, what's the point of dragging religion into this debate? you say "G-d just doesn't want you to live there- check your books" and then i say "we checked our books and G-d also talks about our return to Israel and about our right to this land"- what's the point? religion has some saying in this conflict but it isn't the point- i can drag in religious fanatics in Bney Brak (israel) who don't believe in Israel because the jewish people havn't turned their ways- that would mean nothing since it isn't relevant to this topic.

Explain to me (I'm not going to be here so you'll have to wait till tomorrow) why do the Palestiniens (since you so clearly said this isn't about religion but about the people) have the right to this land and Israel doesn't? and don't start quoting some islamic passages at me- when you try bring opinions as facts and religion as truth to this debate you'd better be able to back it up with some kind of real world... facts, or else you (in my eyes at least) have no opinion and bring nothing to this debate besides whatever your local religious overlord tells you...

Mr. Pumps

08-09-2002, 05:19 PM

Let me ask you a question "American". Are you sane?

You believe the Jews are "condemned" for not following the word of God.............HUH? are you some David Koresh wantabee or just a few braincells short of the looneybin.

It frightens me dearly to hear you are American.

You don't know got knowledge on anything, because NO ONE knows what comes after death......absolutely no one.

Just shut the hell up you aged nut.

Mr. Pumps

08-09-2002, 06:06 PM

I am from Indigenous Inca Empire of the Americas

:confused: What does that mean? :confused:

Are you a Incan decendent? The ones who got wiped out by the Spanish under Pizarro, and all their identity got wiped away forever.

You say the Jews are destined to suffer, but here is the ever growing religion of Mohammed calling us all nonbelievers who have to believe in Allah or be killed. If you are from the Incan people you know very well what such religious fanaticalism can do.

Mr. Pumps

08-09-2002, 06:21 PM

I am guessing you are orginally from Peru and Cuzco...Right?

Sorry the burst your bubble American or Mr. Incan, but Islam wants to destroy the Jews and Israel not the other way around. If given a chance I bet the followers of Mohammed would have beheaded all Incans as well including Tupac if given the chance.

Islam is a bigger threat to the Jews that the Spanish ever were to the Incas with over 2,000,000 Arab troops looking at Israel from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon

American Inca

08-09-2002, 06:25 PM

Exactly! Look further into this "Terrorism" you are so afraid of. The "extremism" dosen't come from religion, it NEVER does. It comes from the power of the colony and it's MANipulation of religion.

Look at Osama! Trained, protected and funded by the CIA! It's a known fact. Religious extremism CANNOT survive with power of the STATE.

Those "suicide" bombings Israel is suffering from, do you really thing the religious people of Palestine, the G-d fearing people even have access to explosives? Look for the money trail and where it leads to. Explosives, guns and ammunition come from STATES! GOVERNMENTS! Not religion.

Saddam is another good example. Funded, protected and bought and maintained in power by the hidden hand of the United States. We manufacture our own enemies and then fully EXPECT them to attack to give the Colony more power to interfere in our lives.

In Palestine it is a known fact that the PLO has funding from the CIA, while Hamas had in the past, and probably still today, support from Israel herself:

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

See, the hidden hand of the Colonial state is ALWAYS involved in keeping the people fighting amongst themselves and deflecting attention away from themselves. It's a perfect plan for control and Colonial expansion at the expense of the poor and weak.

Mr. Pumps

08-09-2002, 06:32 PM

Are you truely Incan by blood in anyway?

Kahz

08-09-2002, 06:58 PM

American:

Palestinians do have access to explsovives, as well as weapons. I suppose they have developed a new form of rock that shoots bullets and explodes, no?

You are aware that HAMAS didn't form it self into a terrorist group until 1988, right?

And there are many more terrorist groups in 'Palestine' than HAMAS. Islamic Jihad, Al-Asqa, Palestinian Hizbullah, etc.

NewsGuy

08-09-2002, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Now back to the topic...
Do you think Hamas or Islamic Jihad would have been able to launch 72 suicide attacks and countless shooting attacks if from day one the the IDF top brass figured that you need to build INSTANT momentum and KEEP that moment going. I am sure there would have been peace by know if the IDF 800 pound gorilla squashed the Palestinian turtle with all it's weight by now in one huge attack.

You make a very good point!

ayesha

08-19-2002, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
I am guessing you are orginally from Peru and Cuzco...Right?

Sorry the burst your bubble American or Mr. Incan, but Islam wants to destroy the Jews and Israel not the other way around. If given a chance I bet the followers of Mohammed would have beheaded all Incans as well including Tupac if given the chance.

Islam is a bigger threat to the Jews that the Spanish ever were to the Incas with over 2,000,000 Arab troops looking at Israel from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon

well mate u lost ur bet.
poor thing. u r obviously far too stupid to realise the difference between Islam as a way of life, and the facade the politicians use for their gain. tut tut tut. ya maskeen.

Batman

08-20-2002, 07:17 AM

American Inca you said:
10,000 demonstrators in S.A., and world wide, can't be wrong on this issue.

Check our Nazi Germany - they were also a majority...do you think that if you would have lived then you would have thought they can't be wrong?

Mr. Pumps

08-20-2002, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by ayesha

well mate u lost ur bet.
poor thing. u r obviously far too stupid to realise the difference between Islam as a way of life, and the facade the politicians use for their gain. tut tut tut. ya maskeen.

No, not really lady. Not as I know fully well what Islam is:

1.) praying to god six-times a day.
2.)Women wearing a outfit that covers everything
3.) Backward ideas. Is the world flat?

I don't give a damn about politicians for I formulate my own ideas.

I have said this numerous times, I just live in a different world and the Israelis live in a different world. My world is technology, Goods education, sexiness, books, history, knowledge, movies, music, drinking occasionally, sports, debatable politics.....you and the Palestinians are jealous that the Jews created luxury and the Western world knowledge, thinking and capability out of alittle patch of land. I like Israel because it is a society I can identify with, sure the Jewish religion is different from Christianity, but I am guessing not by much, and I won't feel like a complete stranger there. If Palestine was Israel it would'nt be 1% as successful, a Somalia type freak state.

Israel is completely Western, Israel is in
my world, in the Western world.

Mediocrates

08-20-2002, 09:24 AM

well mate u lost ur bet.
poor thing. u r obviously far too stupid to realise the difference between Islam as a way of life, and the facade the politicians use for their gain. tut tut tut. ya maskeen

maskeen? wouldn't that be miskeen?

BTW does anybody know why Arafat picked that name to give himself? I understand about the plains of Arafat at the Hajj but what is the significance for an Egyptian-Palestinian man to give himself that name?

Mr. Pumps

08-20-2002, 09:54 AM

What is a Maskeen?

Sorry I don't speak inhuman degenerate.

Please enlighten me since your spelling and meaning is a complete blank to me.

Any country who outright threatens a Western nation is a enemy and that rabble must be liquidated.

L@mplighterM

08-20-2002, 10:04 AM

Maskeen=visibly in need, but also those who seem in no need of help, but who in reality are very poor. Singular: Miskeen.

Mr. Pumps

08-20-2002, 10:28 AM

Miskeen........hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Well how am I suppose to know that.

Not exactly in everyday use! it's like me calling her a git, which she knows its meaning, but no one else here does.

Well, she is a lackluster. misinformed git with limited insight and integrity.

Mediocrates

08-20-2002, 10:56 AM

That's inappropriate and mean.

Everybody stop or get out of the pool.

Mr. Pumps

08-20-2002, 05:24 PM

Git=Mindless person

Sorry mediocrates! but I do not want to be called a disabled illknowledged fool when I am not.

Alyesha does'nt know where I come from or any Jewish or Christian person, she says that I know little about Islam and Muslims to form a opinion or belittle it.

I know all that I want to know. Why is a it a fact Israel is the most advanced nation in all the Middle east , despite being one of the smallest and Muslim Bosnia and Albania being the scourage of Europe . Can Alyesha refute that?

Islam is a backward, sadistic religion where women are treated as dirt. A plague of the world.

elke

08-20-2002, 06:03 PM

But same could have been - and is - said about Christianity in the Middle Ages. While Islamic astronomers were feasting their eyes on a nearby Supernova, Christian Europe was wallowing in its filth and hunting "witches".

We keep going over this fact ad nauseam!

ayesha

08-21-2002, 02:21 AM

first of all there is no wrong spelling with transliteration, the word can be spelt in different ways.
secondly pumps, while i respect ur views i simply dont agree with them. they are complete ah-hum. no islam does not mistreat women, why is it u associate women that are mistreated with islam? that is a wrong assumption on ur part. the taliban may claim to have been depriving girls of schooling but in islam it is a fundamental principle to educate everyone - for a better state. i remember reading about a guy not long ago that murdered his whole family. why? he used to be a devoutly religious and God-fearing person. but he said that God came to him and ordered him to do so. Should we all believe that insanity & become athiests?
when people do wrong they look for anything to justify their irrational actions, in the taliban's case it was religion. what they practiced (in regards to women) has no place in islamic teaching

Mr. Pumps

08-21-2002, 09:16 AM

Where is the Muslim Cindy Crawford, Pamela Lee, Jennifer love Hewitt .....hey! Ayesha.

I heard of a beautiful Iran model who happen to pose nude in a french magazine and returned to Iran and got torn apart and beheaded by a mob in Iran. These people are stangers in my world. It is PERSONAL choice in my world and population acceptence of choice in my world, the world of U.S and Israel.

Sure, Israel and U.S have religious zealots, but they are kept in a tiny minority cage, so they mean nothing. Fortunately.

Women in any sexy outfits is absolutely forbidden in your Religion. Women have to be all covered up, that IS the truth. That is not is me. I like revealing things, it is not that I don't understand Islam, it is parts I focus on, that are fact, and are agianst my world.

I repeat this agian I LIKE sexiness and progress, two thing that your religion cannot allow.

The Israelis have Bars, Parties, scantily clad women, beaches, swimwear, CPU power, Technology, Maxim Magazine in Israel.......things, I as a red-blooded western can identify easily with. The Israelis are Western with infinite ideas and lifestyles and unlimited choice, the fruit of the free system concept. The Jews are our little brother surrounded by primative, closeminded nimrods.

Sure Elke, Christianity was like that in the 15th and 16th century a time when there was limited innovation and technology, but this is the 21st century, a day of satilites, cell phones, fiber optics, digital battlefields, high-tech toys. Muslims exist in a world that is overwhelming in advancement and openmindedness of ideas and pleasure. Comparing Christianity back then and Islam now is not right given the progress and startling capabilities of now.

Mediocrates

08-21-2002, 10:29 AM

To be fair isn't Bahrain like the Islamic Vegas? Where all the glitterati go to do all those things that are forbidden everywhere else? I don't know how they treat each other there or if women are accorded different treatment though.

I've always said that economic survival for the Palestinians would follow somewhere along those kinds of lines. Maybe not Islamic Vegas though, Perhaps Islamic Branson Missouri. No joke.

Mr. Pumps

08-21-2002, 10:47 AM

Well Bahrain does not have gambling and well-endowed bikini clad girls on stage, well so much for my drooling there.

The Palestinians would'nt be able to give any land a GNP greater than Iceland so why bother with money and aid.

I kind of disagree about not letting a "air casino" off the ground over Tel Aviv, I would understand if it is for security since 9/11, but otherwise I think the more openness and individual choice is better. A government should not decide whether someone has a brain or not.

I love innovation and unexpected situations and technology is one of the few things left that does just that, it gives the type of adventerous outlook only the people of the past enjoyed while still trying to figure out this planet.

Adversary2Arabs

08-21-2002, 12:26 PM

Maxim magazine...lol...I love that :)

cerulean

08-21-2002, 12:31 PM

Modesty is considered a virtue for both men and women in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Different sects and groups interpret modesty differently, of course. Many of the restrictions that have arisen have very little to do with modesty and actually work against it, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, I don't think that commercialization of sexuality is necessarily a great thing.

In any event, though, enforcement of modesty standards by the state is a bad idea, in my opinion.

Mr. Pumps

08-21-2002, 12:43 PM

Well when is the last time a Muslim was in such a publication. lets see ummmmmmmmmm.............like never.

Mr. Pumps

08-21-2002, 12:53 PM

Look around the world Cerulean, every nation in one way or another is opened or openning up, except for every state that has a muslim party or communist state.

I believe it is not up to government to bann things it considers harmful, but is a personal choice. As long as no crime and laws are broken. I think after 21 years of a age a person is TRUELY a adult able to fend for him/herself without government acting as a brain.

Openness and ideas is what keeps the West ahead and if Israel ever turned into a religious republic I would honest look down at that. But that would never happen.

The Arabs and Muslims are backward, because they are conservative and closeminded. Even if I prefer one thing, I always have the openess to create and built without restriction.

Ideas are the strength of our world and something Ayesha cannot say anything agianst.

minusthejihad

08-21-2002, 12:59 PM

but he said that God came to him and ordered him to do so. Should we all believe that insanity & become athiests?

Sure would be a step in the right direction!

Persoanlly, God told me that I was better than it and that I shall rule the world. I plan on acting all that out by the way using people like Peacelover and Phillip as a launch pad! woohoo

ayesha

08-22-2002, 01:47 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
[B]The Israelis have Bars, Parties, scantily clad women, beaches, swimwear, CPU power, Technology, Maxim Magazine in Israel.......things, I as a red-blooded western can identify easily with. The Israelis are Western with infinite ideas and lifestyles and unlimited choice, the fruit of the free system concept. The Jews are our little brother surrounded by primative, closeminded nimrods.[B][QUOTE]
dont tell me, ur the kinda guy that would go on holiday to a non-western country, whether it be in the far east, or eastern europe and hang in the american neighbourhood, eat at 'McDonalds' and 'Wendy's' rather than taste their culture.

so u cant identify with a culture therefore it is primitive. interesting food for thought. :D

arabs are backward and arent in those mags? hmmmmm

we got luciana morad - lebanese brazilian nationality
we got salma hayek - lebanese - mexican nationality
we got shakira (mebarak)- lebanese - colombian nationality
we got yamila rahi - lebanese - spanish nationality
and someone a little closer to home. done assume
i believe maxim magazine has published pictures of all these arabic babes

i suggest u go on www.google.co.uk and type in 'arabic women supermodels', or something to that effect.
i cant post the sites here cos most are porn which should keep u ah-hum 'busy' for hours :D

ayesha

08-22-2002, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Well Bahrain does not have gambling and well-endowed bikini clad girls on stage, well so much for my drooling there.errrrr yes they do, why are u pretending to be knowledgable about something, when in reality u know BS. Kuwait has the BIGGEST casino in the ME called 'Aladdins'. The gulf is packed with topless bars. Ask any of ur fellow US Army/Navy

Mr. Pumps

08-22-2002, 10:32 AM

dont tell me, ur the kinda guy that would go on holiday to a non-western country, whether it be in the far east, or eastern europe and hang in the american neighbourhood, eat at 'McDonalds' and 'Wendy's' rather than taste their culture.

so u cant identify with a culture therefore it is primitive. interesting food for thought. :D

arabs are backward and arent in those mags? hmmmmm

we got luciana morad - lebanese brazilian nationality
we got salma hayek - lebanese - mexican nationality
we got shakira (mebarak)- lebanese - colombian nationality
we got yamila rahi - lebanese - spanish nationality
and someone a little closer to home. done assume
i believe maxim magazine has published pictures of all these arabic babes

i suggest u go on www.google.co.uk and type in 'arabic women supermodels', or something to that effect.
i cant post the sites here cos most are porn which should keep u ah-hum 'busy' for hours :D

I am actually doing very well in that respect thank you.

The East Europeans are turning into Westerners and being embraced by NATO.

All the ladies you mention are CHRISTIAN of partly Arab decent, not one is Muslim. I stick by my Iranian model example
of Muslim women ever attempting that. Christians and Jews are models how about Muslims?

Mr. Pumps

08-22-2002, 10:51 AM

Speaking of which Lebanon, where all the women you describe have hertitage, there is the Muslim world and the Christian world.

The Christians have the Sex filled advertisement, partying. drinks and so on, a typical affair in one part of Beirut.

The Muslims watch from the other part, with the typical conservative horror at the a life in which they will never have.

Mediocrates

08-22-2002, 11:01 AM

Q; What's the difference between Baptists and Presbyterians?

A; Presbyterians say hello to each other in the liquor store.

happy now?

Mr. Pumps

08-22-2002, 11:23 AM

Well only if Ayesha acknowledges that her world is the exact opposite from what I and all red-blooded American men enjoy and live like.

1.) There are Casinos, Stripjoints, Bellydancing, bars, beaches in Bahrain and Kuwait, but not for Arabs, but Western Military personal or holiday tourists only. Ever see a Arab Muslim man gamble.....no because it is forbidden in Islam.

2.)All women Ayesha speaks about are Christian of partly Arab decent.

3.) I love beautiful women, booze and go to Hooters, a staple of Americana.

4.) I enjoy some wildness, but in the end I get Educated and work.

;) Sorry! not enough yet Mediocrates.

Mr. Pumps

08-22-2002, 11:34 AM

The West is FAR superior because work and play are flexible in both ideas and merit and shaped by a individuals own choices and character.

In Ayesha society they are dictated by religious ways, remember Islam is a lifestyle and politics too so Indivdiual choice is disallowed by way of the word of the Prophet. I don't want a religion forced on me, I and Westerners including Israelis want to have what is handed to us to be more personalized and adjustable.

ayesha

08-23-2002, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Well only if Ayesha acknowledges that her world is the exact opposite from what I and all red-blooded American men enjoy and live like.

1.) There are Casinos, Stripjoints, Bellydancing, bars, beaches in Bahrain and Kuwait, but not for Arabs, but Western Military personal or holiday tourists only. Ever see a Arab Muslim man gamble.....no because it is forbidden in Islam.

2.)All women Ayesha speaks about are Christian of partly Arab decent.

3.) I love beautiful women, booze and go to Hooters, a staple of Americana.

4.) I enjoy some wildness, but in the end I get Educated and work.

;) Sorry! not enough yet Mediocrates.

u say ure doing well in that respect now? so the arab porn did help. nice to know i aided in ur recovery.. eek

*yawn* Gosh what an intelligent post pumps *yawn*

are u trying to tell me whats goes on in my own country??????? u know **** all! muslims watch from affar??? LOL!
What? You've never been to Club Po Na Na in down town Beirut (incidentally owned by a SUNNI MUSLIM that I personally know) and seen the sensual, naked arabic bellydancers? Really? You're joshing. Mustve missed that one on ur tour through Arabia. Shame though, you could slobber all u like there. Down boy :D , there is only ONE nonmuslim dancer!! ONE. muslims dont compete with nonmuslims, we do what we want cos we want it. (and some of the babes above being christian has no relevance. in arab culture the taboos are the same for christian and muslim, our culture holds the same dos and donts. unless its religious to be in that line of work. i mustve happened to be absent for the lap dancing lessons, in between hymn singing and learning about Christ's Apostles, at my C. of E. school). :rolleyes:

oh yes, so uve changed ur tune NOW, so there ARE such places in Arabia, (not JUST in Bahrain or Kuwait)glad to see ur coming back to reality, oh and it is made for OUR entertainment. MADE FOR U GUYS?? oh man this guy is classic. i guess all the kebab take aways in the US are made for us?

Perhaps u should think of taking a philosophy class called 'Logical Thinking'. It helps point out falacies in statements. Its simple remarks u make that amuses me. you really should keep on posting, because every forum calls for a jester sometimes for entertainment and "The Sun" type news. I must say it makes things in here more interesting. *yawn*

no muslim gamblers? wow u really ARE in the know. please how do u know all this info? give me a call when God appears to u again for more revelations, I wana hear Him say that, myself.

ayesha

08-23-2002, 01:53 AM

wo wo wo....eeeasy now. leb christians have sex filled advertisements? What planet are u on?u know, when u start to make things up u lose credibility pumps. that's an outright lie and u know it. if i could, id slap u for trying to defame my culture and my people. lying git. show me one sex filled ADVERT on the web? huh? where is it? (and im not talking for porn) even our music clips dont get past the 15 rating - christian and muslim alike. thats just our culture, we have a little bashfulness left, sure we have the strip clubs and such BUT we know the time and place for them.

www.lbcsat.com.lb/clips/index.html

www.oghnia.com

no chance of "drooling" from these vids, ull have to visit Club Po Na Na for that

have a good weekend

(oh and do i have to look for ur "arabian/indian whatever muslim supermodel/stripper" why dont u go on the search engine i gave and type it in???

Mr. Pumps

08-23-2002, 07:18 PM

:rolleyes: So tell me great "free" Ayesha.

1.) Are you Educated and have a job?
2.) Are you married and if so did you choose your mate yourself?
3.)What do you wear ?
4.) Ever been to a beach in swim attire? true attire not full covering nonsense
5.) Do you drink? do you go clubbing?

Mr. Pumps

08-23-2002, 07:23 PM

The problem is that the Israelis are perfectly Western, while you are off the richter scale of fanaticalism and backwardsness.

The Arabs have proven in many wars that they can't use any weapons given to them, so the Arabs will always try to achieve some token victory over and over agian, so no peace will be achieved.

ayesha

08-24-2002, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
:rolleyes: So tell me great "free" Ayesha.

1.) Are you Educated and have a job?
2.) Are you married and if so did you choose your mate yourself?
3.)What do you wear ?
4.) Ever been to a beach in swim attire? true attire not full covering nonsense
5.) Do you drink? do you go clubbing?

not that its any of ur business but im a 'des-tot' model, as we like to call ourselves, (i work with wilhelimina agency in london, ask me what u like and i can prove it)

i have a university degree, and have am a qualified languages teacher in ESOL.

i have already answered this Q before someone else put it to me - Unfortunately i dont wear a hijab (headscarf), and no i dont drink but u can bet ur life i like a good grind at a classy hip rnb/soul club
and no i no longer have a man, i loving the wild single life right now. im too young for committment.

any more Qs?

what exactly are u trying to prove pumps? uve already contradicted urself and caused urself enough embarrassment. i hate to see a guy do that to himself. a male ego can be very sexy, but plain arrogance? uh-uh. immediate turn off.

i will ask agin WHAT are u trying to prove?

ayesha

08-24-2002, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
The problem is that the Israelis are perfectly Western, while you are off the richter scale of fanaticalism and backwardsness.

The Arabs have proven in many wars that they can't use any weapons given to them, so the Arabs will always try to achieve some token victory over and over agian, so no peace will be achieved.

ah shucks, just when i was beginning to find u attractive........... :rolleyes:

ure clutching on straws. blah blah blah. come on pimps u can do better than that

Mr. Pumps

08-24-2002, 08:24 AM

I am clutching at straws, it is not a secret that the Arab world is behind. And Muslim states in Europe are just as feudal and primative.

I say all the Arab world is a Feudalist Hunter-gather society at its maximium, Israel like a Singapore in Africa......how laughable. The tiny state of Israel has more Technology potential than 1 billion Arabs put together.

And since you don't answer my question in embaressment. I suppose I am right, ask those same questions to me and I would give you a answer directly, I am proud of my thinking and free lifestyle.

cerulean

08-24-2002, 10:44 PM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1029920525568
Aug. 24, 2002
Racy dress has Islamists hot under the collar
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

A dress designed by a young Arab fashion designer from Arrabe in the Galilee is at the center of a controversy involving Islamic militants in Israel and the West Bank. The designer, Fida Na'amneh, 23, is being attacked by the Islamic Movement in Israel and by Hamas. Not only do they consider the dress immodest, but it carries on it three of the 99 asma, or attributes, of Allah.

The dress has been exhibited throughout in the country. A Russian-born model recently modeled the dress before Israeli and international photographers. Since then, Na'amneh, who herself is a Muslim, has been the target of a hate campaign by the Islamic fundamentalists. . . .
===

Clearly this designer is fortunate to be in Israel as opposed to a country which enforces so-called modesty requirements.

elke

08-25-2002, 04:25 AM

I hope she is heavily guarded!

Haifa

08-25-2002, 09:54 AM

There has been a jewish presence in israel for thousands of years, long before anyone else was there. Second, until arabs began to move in to take advantage of the burgeoning jewish presence turn of the 20th century, only nomadic arab tribes - few and far between - were there.

Your source for this trash isn't the "From Time Immemorial Propaganda Handbook," or is it? It's amazing how pro-Israel people are desperate for the thesis of a Book that has been discredited in every History conference, and has been under constant bashing and trashing since it's inception in 1984. Not to mention that the author never had any history education, but rather, had a degree in political science.

It makes you wonder when you see that after all the trashing from all historians including those in Israel, the book recieves the Jewish Book Award! These people must have been desperate.

The book contradicts itself constantly. For example, while it suggests that the Jews constituted a majority of recent immigrants who did not have money, it also suggests that each Jew hired 10 arabs to work for him. Makes you wonder when the two "facts" are in one chapter.

Not to mention data misinterpretation, and all kinds of flaws that makes the book nothing but trash, as one Jewish historian once said.

So to get rid of the confusion and the mess "From Time Immemorial" has caused to your brain, read this book which was written by a Harvard and Princeton PHD fellow, named Norman G. Finkelstein (yes, he's Jewish!!).

Concentrate on Chapter Two, which was used to get his PHDs. The book is:

Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, by Norman G. Finkelstein.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1859843395/qid=1030300925/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/002-5313898-8617600?s=books&n=507846

The book was used to get 2 PHDs at Harvard and Princeton, and has recieved all kinds of praise from prominent historians, as opposite to the case of the infamous "From Time Immemorial Propaganda handbook."

Mr. Pumps

08-25-2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1029920525568
Aug. 24, 2002
Racy dress has Islamists hot under the collar
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

A dress designed by a young Arab fashion designer from Arrabe in the Galilee is at the center of a controversy involving Islamic militants in Israel and the West Bank. The designer, Fida Na'amneh, 23, is being attacked by the Islamic Movement in Israel and by Hamas. Not only do they consider the dress immodest, but it carries on it three of the 99 asma, or attributes, of Allah.

The dress has been exhibited throughout in the country. A Russian-born model recently modeled the dress before Israeli and international photographers. Since then, Na'amneh, who herself is a Muslim, has been the target of a hate campaign by the Islamic fundamentalists. . . .
===

Why are there Islamists in Israel? they call western things excessive, I call them essential for progressing, some word foreign to them..

Where is the open mindedness and expansion in the Arab and Muslims populations, in general thought process.

I don't care what they think, the West is my world, the constitution is my world, freedom is my world. I like my Britney Spears or Jennifer Lopez type fashion on women because it is my choice and is absolutely HOT. Female Mid-riffed showing things are me. The female form is mezmerizing to me, so curvy and awesome.

Modest in a understatement, Islamic societies are Male dominated controlling society where women can't even vote. 'nuff said.

Mr. Pumps

08-25-2002, 12:17 PM

I wonder what do these stupid Islamist groups think will replace Israel.......HUH!.

The great Dictatorial, Feudal, medieval, unstable, politically backward, Agriculture based, hunter-gather, repressed women, donkies and carts, not one Industrial factory nation of "Palestine". What a joke!.

The Jews have brought in modern politics, Industrialization, Technology, Freedom, Education, knowledge, debate, sexiness, rational, modern things, Medical facilities, progession and advancement.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They want to replace the Grand Titanic with a floating soiled bed matress.

Adversary2Arabs

08-25-2002, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
I wonder what do these stupid Islamist groups think will replace Israel.......HUH!.

The great Dictatorial, Feudal, medieval, unstable, politically backward, Agriculture based, hunter-gather, repressed women, donkies and carts, not one Industrial factory nation of "Palestine". What a joke!.

The Jews have brought in modern politics, Industrialization, Technology, Freedom, Education, knowledge, debate, sexiness, rational, modern things, Medical facilities, progession and advancement.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They want to replace the Grand Titanic with a floating soiled bed matress.

I love that analygy :)

Mr. Pumps

08-25-2002, 03:09 PM

:) But is it honestly not the true.

Haifa

08-25-2002, 04:10 PM

oh forgot to mention, Mr. Pumps. This quote was directed at you

quote:

There has been a jewish presence in israel for thousands of years, long before anyone else was there. Second, until arabs began to move in to take advantage of the burgeoning jewish presence turn of the 20th century, only nomadic arab tribes - few and far between - were there.

Your source for this trash isn't the "From Time Immemorial Propaganda Handbook," or is it? It's amazing how pro-Israel people are desperate for the thesis of a Book that has been discredited in every History conference, and has been under constant bashing and trashing since it's inception in 1984. Not to mention that the author never had any history education, but rather, had a degree in political science.

It makes you wonder when you see that after all the trashing from all historians including those in Israel, the book recieves the Jewish Book Award! These people must have been desperate.

The book contradicts itself constantly. For example, while it suggests that the Jews constituted a majority of recent immigrants who did not have money, it also suggests that each Jew hired 10 arabs to work for him. Makes you wonder when the two "facts" are in one chapter.

Not to mention data misinterpretation, and all kinds of flaws that makes the book nothing but trash, as one Jewish historian once said.

So to get rid of the confusion and the mess "From Time Immemorial" has caused to your brain, read this book which was written by a Harvard and Princeton PHD fellow, named Norman G. Finkelstein (yes, he's Jewish!!).

Concentrate on Chapter Two, which was used to get his PHDs. The book is:

Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, by Norman G. Finkelstein.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

The book was used to get 2 PHDs at Harvard and Princeton, and has recieved all kinds of praise from prominent historians, as opposite to the case of the infamous "From Time Immemorial Propaganda handbook."

Commercial Nine

08-25-2002, 04:22 PM

if you want peace then give the palestinians their holy land.

Mediocrates

08-25-2002, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Haifa
......
The book was used to get 2 PHDs at Harvard and Princeton, and has recieved all kinds of praise from prominent historians, as opposite to the case of the infamous "From Time Immemorial Propaganda handbook."

[/QUOTE]

Actually the most vocal critics of that book belong to the American arm of the Arab league. And other political agitators. There is at least one so called historian who has made his own cause celebe out of it. Hit blog runs to several thousand pages. You could google it yourself.

Strangely though actual professional historians have been silent on the charges you level. The most serious criticism leveled by professional historians is that some of the source material is weak and does not have a provenance from 2 distinct sources. Which in modern historical research is a pretty common claim.

In contrast with people like you who center on the Ottoman census in the 1870-80s. And then you ignore, forget, can't read, whatever, everything that happened since then. And of course you do none of your own research so you have to take the word of the loudest mouth you agree with and call it truth. But mostly it's just ********, from a real life scenario of how modern research is performed.

Mediocrates

08-25-2002, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Commercial Nine
if you want peace then give the palestinians their holy land.

Sure. Go to Amman, hang a left, you can't miss it.

Adversary2Arabs

08-25-2002, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Commercial Nine
if you want peace then give the palestinians their holy land.

Crack kills man. If it's their "holy land" why does the Koran not mention it once in the enitre document? Ya...thats what I thought.

Haifa

08-25-2002, 06:54 PM

Crack kills man. If it's their "holy land" why does the Koran not mention it once in the enitre document? Ya...thats what I thought.

Because no cities are mentioned in the Koran. The koran does not even mention Mecca.

Adversary2Arabs

08-25-2002, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Haifa

Because no cities are mentioned in the Koran. The koran does not even mention Mecca.

Mecca os metioned at LEAST 3 times. Medina is mentioned at LEAST 2 times.

Jerusalem is mention NO MORE THAN 0 times.

Anyway the ONLY reason why Muslims claim Jerusalem is because "this is where Mohammud went into heaven."

Judaisms link is Israel and Jerusalem is infinite!

Haifa

08-25-2002, 07:07 PM

ah ok. Then there must be reaons that make jerusalem holy. It could be mentioned hadith or other books.

Mr. Pumps

08-25-2002, 07:13 PM

Haifa you oaf, the Jews won the right to the land in 1948, if the Arab wanted they could have defeated the Israelis at that time, but did'nt. All is fair in love and War.

And what the hell would the Palestinians do with the land anyway turn it into a decrepid militant land. The Jews made good use of the land and are now industrialized on a tiny amount of land, maybe if the Palestinians were to help themselves and not use the destruction of Israel as a reason for their failures and primativness then the situation would improve.

Bosnia and Albania should be wiped out for they are decrepid sh*itlands, too.

Adversary2Arabs

08-25-2002, 07:30 PM

Haifa, did you know that Arabs didn't care about Israel or Jerusalem until the Jews turned it into a country worth inhabiting? Its funny that the Palestinaisn didn't get a national identity until after the creation of the State of Israel?

Haifa

08-25-2002, 07:32 PM

And what the hell would the Palestinians do with the land anyway turn it into a decrepid militant land. The Jews made good use of the land and are now industrialized on a tiny amount of land

well the Israelis did not invent this excuse. It was used by the British and Dutch against the blacks in Africa before: "you cant use your land so we're gonna make use of it"

That very statement was the excuse behind all acts of colonialism that lasted for hundreds of years.

__________________

Haifa, did you know that Arabs didn't care about Israel or Jerusalem until the Jews turned it into a country worth inhabiting?

Is your source "from time immemorial"? As I said before, your statement has been refuted by all historians including israeli ones.

So I suggest you read:

Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, by Norman G. Finkelstein.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846
_________________________

It shows that your statement is incorrect

Mediocrates

08-25-2002, 07:39 PM

The general condition and infrastructure and development of Yesha is about where Israel was in the 1930's. Sometimes I think that Arabs believe that was the true Golden Age and maybe that is the desired state of things for them. True the buildings are bigger but the general structure of society has not changed since then.

Mr. Pumps

08-25-2002, 07:54 PM

Oh come on, name me one state in the middle East worth talking about other than Israel when it comes to achievement in the region. You are just whining when someone can do something better than you will less resources and room. Simply whining!.

Mr. Pumps

08-25-2002, 08:01 PM

The Israelis are have cell phones, CPU's, modern cars, satilites in space, modern high techness, home made weapons.

And what do the Arabs surrounding the Israelis have, some copies of soviet junk weapons, no modern gadgets in mass usage, no high techness, feudal customs ....................I think sometime after the Ottoman empire collapsed the Arabs missed the advancement bus.

ayesha

08-27-2002, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
I am clutching at straws, it is not a secret that the Arab world is behind. And Muslim states in Europe are just as feudal and primative.

I say all the Arab world is a Feudalist Hunter-gather society at its maximium, Israel like a Singapore in Africa......how laughable. The tiny state of Israel has more Technology potential than 1 billion Arabs put together.

And since you don't answer my question in embaressment. I suppose I am right, ask those same questions to me and I would give you a answer directly, I am proud of my thinking and free lifestyle.

(what Q was i too "embarrassed" to answer????

i have had enough of ur ****. u r uncapable of holding a factual , HONEST, intellectual debate. everything u have said has been based on ignorance and prejudice. ive wasted enough time with someone who calls Arabic "inhuman degenerate". - speaking of which, i showed ur posts to my girlfriends and they say thanks, they havent laughed that much for ages. :D

look this "inhuman degenrerate" up. al wahad mustaheel yahki maik bil a'al li-enak unsuri 100 bil 100. bi yikfi hal 'ad.

you have proved my point beyond reasonable doubt.

Mr. Pumps

08-27-2002, 01:08 AM

What facts do you need?

Plain statistics proven everything, Albania and Bosnia are the most underdeveloped and poorest nations in Europe. A Fact.

Israel is the most developed land in the Middle East. Another Fact.

Boy.... with that where is your information.

ayesha

08-27-2002, 03:13 AM

LOL! should we blame South America's economic, employment + problems on Christianity? LOL! Ya Illahi, whatever ure smoking, just say no.
You should put urself forward for election,ur knowledge is profound, u have a ll the answers and solutions. u d man! :D

ayesha

08-27-2002, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
The Israelis are have cell phones, CPU's, modern cars, satilites in space, modern high techness, home made weapons.

And what do the Arabs surrounding the Israelis have, some copies of soviet junk weapons, no modern gadgets in mass usage, no high techness, feudal customs ....................I think sometime after the Ottoman empire collapsed the Arabs missed the advancement bus.

we're behind in techological advancement???LOLOLOLOL
have u ever been to ANY arab country?

ybe

08-27-2002, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Teacake

A westen mind thinks this way. Don't forget that more progress was made on the deal with Barak, they were on the brink of statehood and responded with starting a war rather than raising a flag.

Don't forget that all 19 of the 911 attack were university educated and led prosperious lifestyles. They all have a lot to live for and chose to die.

Does anyone really believe that if the pals got a state that all the other terror networks working globally would just clap their hands for joy and give up jihad? Very very doubtful. Israel is the red herring.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide_1.html

I read Ayesha's "is peace really possible?" and from a western mind set I liked what I read. It is simple, reasonable, practical and inquiring. But this is the Middle East in which every thing is turned on its head. What you would consider to be acceptable, innocent and descent would be considered grave family dishonor in the Arab world. They would consider an acceptable and time honored solution to kill the offender and/or take revenge against anyone from the offender's family or relatives. To some one from the west, a totally unacceptable solution that can not even be contemplated.

So you are right Israel is a Red Herring or better yet something totally foul that can not be tolerated or digested. I'm originally from Savannah, GA and made Aliya straight out of High School 28 years ago. I've done my 3 yrs active in the Golani Brigade and 21 years in various Infantry Reserve units. I know Southern Lebanon better and in detail than my own neck-of â€“the-woods in Georgia. Married, +2 boys, work and pay taxes. Gone from being a secular Israeli Zionist to an Orthodox practicing Jew. I live in Yaffo and most of my neighbors are Israeli Arabs.

If we are allowed deal with one another on a one-on-one bases, no problem. We generally get along and we pay our respects to one another. The problem starts if the families become involved or the community.

I do not see a long term solution or even a short term and I've been thinking about this and dealing with it since I came. In my opinion it is only going to become worse and more extreme. Neither Uncle Sam or EU community have viable solutions because the problem is not local to Israel and the PA but a confrontation btwn East and West.

Uncle Sam woke up finally with a 911 call one afternoon when the Twins went bursting in the air. The EU has a growing demographic time bomb that is shifting the balance of power internally.

In the best of Jewish tradition give a blessing and say that may I be wrong and Ayesha be right. :)

elke

08-27-2002, 11:32 AM

I hate to be critical, especially since I am not "on the spot", but here it goes anyway...

The West did not start out with "modern" thinking. It turned that way, gradually over the centuries.

The question is, was this change the direct result of inevitable evolution of human thought, universal to any human culture? Or is "modernity" unique to the Western culture alone? Or do we truly owe our progress to a number of luminaries, such as Thomas Aquinas and Maimonides, who have taken their respective religions and added a generous dollop of common sense, to arrive at the successful mix?

Being an optimist by nature, I tend toward the #1: that the philosophy of "live and let live" is the inevitable culmination of the advanced human culture, as it is this stance that would allow for the most innovation on individual and collective level: both scientific and social. Therefore, it seems that this is not really "East vs.West", but rather the age-old tug-of-war of "old vs. new". The only difference now is that we have weapons of mass destruction, which can be usurped from us by the "old", and used on all.

Haifa

08-27-2002, 12:35 PM

Or is "modernity" unique to the Western culture alone?

hmm no I think not. All it takes for change to happen is one man. Preferably a dictator.

Why? Because at this point, if societies are allowed to take control of themselves, they will become worse.

You see, in the past when I was reading Freud's theories I was not sure how religion is simply the same as society. Then, after becoming an atheist, it all made sense: people do not modernize themselves because everyone (society) is looking at them.

For example, in a society like saudi arabia, women cover their heads not because they are religious (most are not) but because if they do not they will become social outcasts. No one wants to do it, but no one is brave enough to be the to say "No".

NOw let's go back to dictators. In the turn of the 20th century, countries like jordan, syria, lebanon, palestine, iraq, algeria, and morocco were under french/british colonization. Amazingly, those countries are at least 50 years advanced (culturally) than countries like saudi arabia and the gulf countries that were never colonies! Socities continued to evolve culturally until the 70s, then, for some reason, societies in the Arab world started going backword and becoming religious instead of evolving.

But the only problem is having a good dictator. You would not count on someone like saddam hussein. You would not count on Yasser Arafat.

You would count on someone like King Abdullah though. He has allowed bars, pork, casinos, porn..etc. Even though abdullah has screwed up the economy and spent half the budget in casinos in las vigas, on the long term, i think it is worth it.

minusthejihad

08-27-2002, 12:44 PM

Haifa,

Why? Because at this point, if societies are allowed to take control of themselves, they will become worse.

But you are the same guy that said, and I quote, "Jews do not control America. The pro-israel lobby does. This includes lots of brain-dead christians waiting for their messiah to come."

So, I guess we should take you seriously?

ha ha, still laughing. And Jesus was who again?

Jorge

08-27-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote fro ybe , post # 134:

I do not see a long term solution or even a short term and I've been thinking about this and dealing with it since I came. In my opinion it is only going to become worse and more extreme. Neither Uncle Sam or EU community have viable solutions because the problem is not local to Israel and the PA but a confrontation btwn East and West.

In the best of Jewish tradition give a blessing and say that may I be wrong and Ayesha be right. __________________

ybe, it would be presumptuous of me, a secular jew to give you a blessing, but nevertheless I dare say you may be wrong and Ayesha right.

The fact that you don't see a long term solution of the conflict may arise from the notion that the odds appear to be
unfavorable. However, there's a long distance between improbable and impossible, as a number of events in recent history exemplify. To quote just a few: it was a sure bet in
1940 that Germany would win the war, a sure bet in 1970
that the Soviet Union would go on another 50 years and
also a sure bet in 1950 that a unified Europe was a joke.
So, if anyone comes around with the idea that it's a sure bet that the arab-israeli conflict will continue for the foreseable future...

An improbable state may change into a probable one through a change of the variables that influence it. In the present case, the situation in 2002 is radically different than in 2000;
palestinian terrorist actions have been of unprecedented magnitude and they are not an inch nearer to the satisfaction of their demands than 2 years ago; Israel has carried out a brutal repression of the revolt but this has led us nowhere. In more than one way both sides have reached rock bottom and it's pretty clear that the road of violence is a blind alley.

Two years ago, the ideologues of violence managed to convince a number of israelis with slogans like "Allow Tzahal
win!", " Let's go in and teach them a lesson!" "Let's dismantle
the PA and they'll beg for peace!" and others of the sort.
Two years later the results of putting those slogans into practice
are there for everyone to see and there futility is evident.
It was a costly experiment that resulted in thousands of casualties that ought to have been avoided. But if those casualties were to have a meaning it would be to tell us that there's no other choice but to coexist side by side in peace.

So I would say, without sounding overtly optimistic, that it is a sure bet that very shortly the majority of people on both sides will come to its senses and peace will be a probable event.

Here it appears appropiate to end with a quote stolen from elke :

History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
Abba Eban

Haifa

08-27-2002, 12:52 PM

minusmujahid what do you know about christianity?

There is going to be a second coming!! Please do some reading.

Around 70% of christians in america, including g w. bush, believe that jesus will come a second time if all jews go to israel. Do some reading please.

minusthejihad

08-27-2002, 12:52 PM

Jorge,

Then how do you explain the recent lull in terrorist activity? Would you say that bombing and assisinating Saleh and other Hamas members isn't working?

minusthejihad

08-27-2002, 01:02 PM

Haifa,

You said:

Jews do not control America. The pro-israel lobby does. This includes lots of brain-dead christians waiting for their messiah to come.

This is why the israeli-lobby is extremely weak in atheist europe.
....

The second possibility is that you belong to the first group - ie brain-dead christians waiting for some imaginary non-existant messiah.

Technically, he did exist and he did come, his name was Jesus, whether or not he comes again is not what you were talking about. Jews are technically still waiting for Our Messiah, then we will all go back to our homeland.

Sorry if that is what you were implying. To me, it sounded like an uninformed arrogant diatribe about brain-dead Christians supporting Israel because they are waiting for their Messiah to go back to Israel. Either way, it sounded Incredibly Stupid to me.

Even if I was completely wrong and you were completely right, it would change the fact that what you said still came out as hatred, whether against Jews or Christians is unimportant. It shows that Islam doesn't have any respect for any other religion, and Islam employs ignorant, excuse me, brain-dead people to spout its rhetoric. You one of those?

Oh, and please cgive sources to:

1. that over 70% of American Christians believe in a second coming

2. that George Bush has said this too

just interested where you get these numbers and claims, because I sense a snake trying to wriggle out from the grasp of truth.

martinw718

08-27-2002, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Haifa
minusmujahid what do you know about christianity?

There is going to be a second coming!! Please do some reading.

Around 70% of christians in america, including g w. bush, believe that jesus will come a second time if all jews go to israel. Do some reading please.

Where do you get this garbage?

Having been raised in the evangelical tradition in the Southern United States I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that -- you have no idea what you're talking about.

The idea that the Jews going to Israel will actually trigger the Second Coming is a fringe element idea which you would be hard-pressed to find being taught in any reputable seminary.

It contradicts some basic evagelical beliefs about the Second Coming.

In fact, I don't even know who believes it. Probably somebody, somewhere. But I've never heard of it before.

Of course, I've been away from evangelical Christianity for a while and maybe the entire theology has changed. Yeah, right! Like they ever change their theology! :p

martinw718

08-27-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by minusthejihad
just interested where you get these numbers and claims, because I sense a snake trying to wriggle out from the grasp of truth.

Oh, great! Now you've mentioned snake handlers.

Haifa will never let us hear the end of it!

;)

Haifa

08-27-2002, 01:51 PM

first of all, saying that there are lots of brain-dead christians waiting for the messiah to come (for the second time) isn't a hate statement. It is a factual one.

In fact, all christians, regardlesss of their sect, believe that the messiah will come again, and that he will return in what is now known as israel.

see this

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=second+coming+christ&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

and do some reading.

Now some sects believe that the establishment of Israel is required for jesus to come again, and some other sects dont.

Orthodox christians, for example, believe that israel has nothing to do with the coming of the messiah, while methodists believe it is necessary.

Now, the second part is about geroge bush. Well, geroge bush is a methodist. He goes to his methodist church every sunday.

_________________

About the 70%, it is in a book written by a former U.S. senator about the pro-israel (jewish and others) lobby in america. I will try to find a review of the book.

Haifa

08-27-2002, 01:56 PM

quotes from christian websites

The prophesied regathering of the Jewish people into a reborn Israel in 1948 and their regaining control of Jerusalem in 1967 are sure signs that this is the last generation (40-70 years) that Christ said would see His return. This generation will also witness the anti christ, the abomination of desolation, and the great tribulation-all end time subjects of Bible prophesy.

http://secondcoming.freeservers.com/

Perhaps, the most conspicuous sign of the imminence of Christ's return is the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1947. The Lord was referring to Israel when He spoke the parable of the fig tree:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh" (Matt. 24:32).

The fig tree in the Bible is the symbol of Israel, while the Vine is the symbol of the Church. When you see Israel emerging as a sovereign nation, be assured that the day of the return of Jesus is drawing close. It is the result of God's intervention that the Jews acquired a native land, returning to the land promised by God to Abraham and his descendants. That's got to be a miracle!

The stage is being set for the Lord's appearance. His return will not take place in Europe, nor Asia nor Africa nor in North America nor South America. He is returning to the spot from where He left - the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:11f) in the Holy Land.

At His first advent Christ "came unto His own," and though they "received Him not," at His second advent He is returning again "unto His own." He is to appear first to the nation of Israel. The Lord by that time will have gathered His people from all parts of the earth. "And I will bring them and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and righteousness" (Zech. 8:8).

http://www.stsymeon.org/IsraelSecondComing.htm

_________________________________________

Do you understand now? Do you know why I call these people brain-dead? Because they see politics through the eyes of the MYTH of a second return.

Now I understand that you are benefiting from their stupidity, but this no reason to not tell them "you are stupid!"

O, one last point: orthodox christians do not believe in all this. Neither do some sects of catholic christians.

martinw718

08-27-2002, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Haifa
first of all, saying that there are lots of brain-dead christians waiting for the messiah to come (for the second time) isn't a hate statement. It is a factual one.

In fact, all christians, regardlesss of their sect, believe that the messiah will come again, and that he will return in what is now known as israel.

see this

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=second+coming+christ&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

and do some reading.

Now some sects believe that the establishment of Israel is required for jesus to come again, and some other sects dont.

Orthodox christians, for example, believe that israel has nothing to do with the coming of the messiah, while methodists believe it is necessary.

Now, the second part is about geroge bush. Well, geroge bush is a methodist. He goes to his methodist church every sunday.

_________________

About the 70%, it is in a book written by a former U.S. senator about the pro-israel (jewish and others) lobby in america. I will try to find a review of the book.

Well, you struck out again. I used to be a Methodist. Methodists don't believe that. Sorry.

You're getting worse, not better.

It is obvious to the rest of us on here that people who disagree with you are not necessarily "brain-dead." In fact, we're starting to see it the other way around.

And if you have to do a google search under the heading "second coming", you clearly have no clue about the subject to begin with.

I can't believe I'm actually defending evangelical Christianity! :p

But you have gotten it so twisted around I had to jump in here on their side. Mom and Dad would be so proud!

martinw718

08-27-2002, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Haifa
quotes from christian websites...

You are so confused.

First of all, you have it completely turned around: The idea is that God fulfills his promises. It is not that these things actually trigger the next event. It's like saying that the Golden Gate Bridge triggers San Francisco.

Second -- and I'm sure you know this: You can find anything you want on Internet religious sites.

And "End Times Prophecy" is the all-time favorite topic of religious kooks.

Why not go onto the various Christian denominations' websites and see what they actually believe. This might repair some of your credibility.

elke

08-27-2002, 06:39 PM

Jorge, you are more than welcome to use that quote. In fact, I chose it for my signature to express more-or-less what you have said in your post. :)

Haifa, saying "brain-dead" Christians is a judgment. It may be self-evident to you that anyone believing in Christianity is "brain-dead", but it's obviously not self-evident to the majority of this world, including Europe and the Far East, since they are by-and-large Christian.

Also, you should thank your stars for living in a modernized Christian nation, where you can call your hosts' religious beliefs "brain-dead" without risking anything more than a verbal thrashing from members of this board.

cerulean

08-27-2002, 06:46 PM

Haifa said:

For example, in a society like saudi arabia, women cover their heads not because they are religious (most are not) but because if they do not they will become social outcasts. No one wants to do it, but no one is brave enough to be the to say "No".

The problem in Saudi Arabia is not that they will become outcasts but they will be beaten by the religious police who enforce draconian clothing rules (even to the extent of pushing girls without their chadors back into burning buildings to die in order to avoid the "immodesty" of being in public).

If being a social outcast was all the average Saudi woman had to fear, I suspect a lot more would give up their garb.

L@mplighterM

08-27-2002, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Haifa

For example, in a society like saudi arabia, women cover their heads not because they are religious (most are not) but because if they do not they will become social outcasts. No one wants to do it, but no one is brave enough to be the to say "No".

Are you a female refugee from Saudi Arabia?

ayesha

08-29-2002, 02:40 AM

I agree with Jorge and Elke. There is a desperate need for a new Palestinian strategy. What is now being done is clearly not working. More of the same will only produce more suffering, more tension and ever deepening disaster.

A reassessment is long overdue. To begin such an effort, it is important to outline some of the constants that define the parameters of the current situation.

The first:
It is clear that given the reality of US politics, the Administration will not intervene to restrain Israel. Although they are not pleased with Israel's actions and would like to see a negotiated settlement to the conflict. They will not act in a public or decisive manner to pressure Israel. Therefore, despite the fanciful hopes or the insistence of some Arabs, there will be no US led Kosovo-style rescue, or Kuwait-style liberation, nor will there be a US imposed, or even US supported peacekeeping or protection force sent into the occupied lands. Infact, there will not even be a US-supported UN resolution that calls for the formation of any of the above. Given the absence of any possibility of any outside rescue effort - it is important to look elsewhere.

The second:
There will be no European rescue. The EU, as well as other international players: the Russians, Chinese, the non-aligned, OIC etc will express concern or condemnation and pass an occasional resolution, but they will not act. They have no real leverage, no real interest in using whatever leverage they do have, since they do not wish to force an open confrontation with the US.

The third:
Even the Arab states, though deeply distressed and even angered at the unraveling situation, will not be able to be the external force that can rescue the situation.

Finally, back to the Israeli context, it is important to recognise that the collapse of the peace process and the resumption of violence has hardened Israeli opinion. As a result, Sharon's hand has been strengthened and the Labour Party has been weakened to the point of collapse.

I am eager to debate any or all of these 4 observations. NOT whether they are 'just' - clearly they are not 'just' - but whether they are correct in describing the set of circumstances we face, as I believe they are. I don't know I may be wrong. The solutions to these observations is the key to tackling the current crisis.

ybe

08-29-2002, 02:42 AM

I read your comments several times and your lines "The question is, was this change the direct result of inevitable evolution of human thought, universal to any human culture? Or is "modernity" unique to the Western culture alone?" I find intriguing.

First of all this "modernity" the West enjoys is essentially an inheritance from Rome and its Empire transmitted via the Holy Roman / German Empire and later developed during the Renaissance. But the question is "is the West modern and the East backward" like we would compare areas of a country near major cities as developed and the small towns, villages and farming areas as under developed, or is the major differences between East & West like Bach / Mozart & Um Kaltum / Farid Al Atrash or Vodka & Arak. Is it a matter of taste or a frame of mind?

Egypt is a modern country with Industry and Universities but it is teeming with poor. If over a period of decades, Egypt were to develop a large cross section of a middle class, would this retard the growth and spread of fundamental Islam and the desire to reject Western secular cultural influences? Would this endear Egypt to open up to Israel?
Algeria is also a modern country with a large middle class and secular populace. It is in the midst of a civil war, western style governance is under attack and secular Muslims are viciously slaughtered daily. Can Algeria make peace with Israel and learn to love Jews?
If we were to go through and learn the current state of affairs of each of the 22 Arab countries in the Middle East and ask questions like:
1.) Could they learn to accept Israel's right to exist?
2.) Absorb Western secular culture and thought?
3.) Permit free elections, multi political parties to compete democratic governance?
4.) Allow minorities to openly practice their religion without interference or control like build new houses of worship or religious schools or institutions?
5.) Allow their citizens who are today Muslims to convert to other religions, for example Southern Baptist, Greek Catholic, Bahai or become a Buddhist or even to be a plain ol' Atheist.
6.) Guarantee human rights and allow women's emancipation.

Individually each country would respond differently but as a group, for example the Arab league, they tend to reject.

The world is divided essentially between developed West and under developed East,
But Western culture is not modern verses Islamic third world. As I see it, its as if Mars and Mercury are struggling on Earth and Israel is under foot.

We Jews have a very long history with humanity and most of it is depressing at best.
The Rise and Fall of many Empires, regimes and peoples have past over us. I keep thinking of a jingle I heard "We take our licken and keep on ticken" and maybe thatâ€™s the way it is. We Jews believe that when the Meshiach (Messiah) comes every thing will turn out right. So may he come speedily! If also I can give a bit of praise and thanks to David Ben-Gurion and Simon Peres for having the political will and foresight to develop Israel's Scientific and Military industries. For in the early days of 1973, when Egypt and Syria were appearing to roll deep into Israel unannounced, we had a deterrence waiting underground and an offer they could not refuse.

Mediocrates

08-29-2002, 04:34 AM

You pays your money you makes your choice~

I think a misconception that the West has about the rest of the world is that wealth yields the same outcomes. By this I mean that the West sees economic development as a political panacea and that development would inevitably lead to Western style democracy.

I don't believe this for a second. I need only to look around and see the world. Capitalist People's Republic of China is not and will never be Asian versions of us. An Arab world 'uplifted' will never become what we are. Why would it?

The world is littered with 'democracies' that consist of one party fascist states that held one election once, a long time ago. And even now in countries like Russia who have crawling to capitalism and democratic reform out of bare urgency they have veered hard into the realm of corruption by any other name. Perostroika and Glasnost have degenerated into Mafioso Anarchy, and a modern day Bread & Circuses that is Chechniya and places like that.

So, what would a somewhat successful 'uplifting' of the Arab world look like? Well what does it look like today? You are right when you say that countries like Egypt are of stark contrasts - universities and mind boggling squalor. Free economic development zones (like Shanghai?)? Would the political structure allow it? You need strong semi autonomous local political authority to pull that off and you need a skill base to develop it. Perhaps that is possible, I don't know.

And perhaps more importantly the West needs to disabuse themselves of the primacy of certain unalienable rights over everything else. There is repression everywhere in the world from China to Sao Palo. And just as we complain about rights abuses in Sri Lanka and Nigeria, there is simply little we can do to effect any meaningful change vis a vis human rights in the Arab world. It's not nice it's not pretty it's not fair. So what. Maybe it's not even the right thing to do.

So I would take a two pronged approach: political containment and economic frontiers. Containment to insure that their problems remain theirs and not ours, and frontiers to open mutually exploitive economic development initiatives w/o transfering massive amounts of technology to them. We know to feed people, smelt steel, and thousands of other things that don't involve high tech weapons and the requisite militaristic repression and fear required to operate it. Let's try that.

ybe

08-29-2002, 06:48 AM

Hi ayesha,

Commenting on your:
"I am eager to debate any or all of these 4 observations. NOT whether they are 'just' - clearly they are not 'just' - but whether they are correct in describing the set of circumstances we face, as I believe they are. I don't know I may be wrong. The solutions to these observations are the key to tackling the current crisis."

The first:
Uncle Sam has enough on its hands and 911 has given America a new enemy to do battle with or an other "Evil Empire" to crusade against. Besides the US runs on oil, so the question is what can the Palestinians do to ease the flow of oil into Texaco and American Standard. From where I sit, I can not see how they can contribute a can of W30 or a drop of unleaded. Bush is from the South and so is Clinton. That means that they are practical and have common sense. Clinton bent over backwards, stuck his neck out and went the extra mile. Where did it get him? Bush is no fool and to quote Francis Bacon (Gavalt) "Fools rush in where angles fear to tread." The Palestinians, who are really getting the short-end-of-the-stick from all sides, placed all their bets on the wrong horse and their aspirations on a false messiah. If the Arab/Muslim community in America becomes significant and can influence the out come of the elections then itâ€™s a new ball game. Uncle Sam did not wade into Kosovo to save the helpless in Kosovo but rather with the Security Councils decision to go in, America wanted to keep Russia out as much as possible. Kuwait-style liberationâ€¦ that an interesting thought. If the US had not gone into Kuwait then what would have happen to the Kuwaiti people under Iraq? Compare that to the reality of the Palestinian people as they are today. Quite a difference would you not say. We should wish all the suffering people in the world who feel that they are oppressed, that they should suffer as the Palestinians. Then maybe the world would be a much better place to live. At least they would receive better Press coverage and the UN General Assembly would start hearing their grievances and pass numerous resolutions. Every so often some of their issues would actually be presented before the Security Council.

The second:
The EU is no better and no worse than Arafat, a bad bet. Europeans love to pass resolutions, attend conferences, take long vacations and eat exquisite food. They feel guilty today for being naughty in the past. But take hope for the Muslim communities are growing, making families and having kids. They actually believe children are a blessing from G-d. For Europeans, kids are a nuisance at best and 1.3 children desirable.

The third:
The Arab states, wellâ€¦ stick with the Israeli context you will have less disappointment and more to count on.

Israeli context:
In the Talmud, Hillel gives the following advice in getting along with others:
"Don't do to others what you would not want done to yourself".
Good advice for all of us to heed.
Achieving national independence by armed struggle is maybe a romantic vision and President Arafat envisions himself as the reincarnation of Saalah Adin but President Sadam Hussein is also a leader of vision. What benefit has it brought the Iraqi people?
What benefit have the Palestinian people achieved through armed struggle? Hezbollah may give great inspiration but what practical solutions can they offer the Palestinians?
If you could pick up a copy of the book "Jews in Germany, From Roman Times to the Weimar Republic" by Nachum T. Gidal you could read how we lived in shear Hell for over 800 years. The end result is that we survived, retained our identity, our way of life and our desire to go home. If Hitler had not come along than we would have started out at 2 maybe 3 million instead of 600 thousand. Europe today is mostly depleted of Jews. We, who shared in creating and developing Europe, have only graves to visit and tombstones to care for. If the Palestinian strategy is to create a Hell for us, sorry we been there and survived well enough. But if you will abandon violence and armed struggle, and go back to the negotiating table, then maybe just maybe you will salvage what you can in a solution. We are not very numerous in the world, totaling around 12 million at best, but we have been able to hold our ground and pull our weight against 1 billion Christians and 2 billion Muslims. So the hand of G-d is truly at work.

Jorge

08-29-2002, 08:39 AM

You can say a number of things about the comments posted in this thread but the one thing you cannot say it's they are boring.
One day the discussion is about ME politics, the next day about women's fashion, the next one about the End of the World and so forth. I fail to see any connection bet. "What a Woman should Wear this Season at the Beach?" and " Is Peace really possible?" but this business of the Second Coming has a lot of bearing on the subject as I'll explain below.

[ Most of my wisdom about this subject comes from a chronicle carried on by Time Magazine (Apocalypse Now by Nancy Gibbs, August 18, also in time.com./time/Europe/specials) and from which I'll be quoting freely without permission.]
quote:
According to prophecy the Jews must be in control of Israel for Jesus to return. But in the last battle, two thirds of the Jews perish, and the rest either accept Jesus as the true Messiah or they must be damned, literally.
(if I could choose I'd rather be included in the remaining third and survive, surely to be a New Born Evangelical couldn't be that bad ).

This opens a whole new strategy for palestinians: to allow us to have full control of the country and then wait for the Second Coming when we will we wiped out, converted or damned and then they could have full control of the country.

Palestinians have nothing to fear since some of them are Christians and have a good chance to be saved and, as for the Moslems, they are not mentioned in the prophecy so they will probably be ignored. To those among them that are too impatient and are not willing to sit and wait for the Second Coming, I could tell them: it may be sooner than you think!. Predictions are being fulfilled in these very days!!

First, thanks to the policies of the present government, we already have achieved full control of the country; so Act I is done with. Act II includes the arrival of the Antichrist and is also close. I have it from very good sources (which I cannot disclose) very chummy with our PM, Mr. Sharon, that the Antichrist may have already arrived and is going around stirring trouble under the pseudonym of Yasser Arafat. To top it all another Event will send Americans into a tantrum: there are Impending Revelations (I have this also from very good sorces) on the way to made public about a certain person in the Oval Office, with initials G.W.B., having been conducting a romantic affair with a notorious lady, with initials M.L.

After that comes Act III, the Battle of Armageddon which will take place probably next summer in Babylon (Iraq) and then the Grand Finale with {Exit,the Jews }

So, I must say, everything follows the prophecy rather neatly.
I just thought though of one snag in the plot: Moslems being Moslems, might not believe in the prophecies of the Book of Revelation and then we'd be back where we started.

P.S. According to a Time/CNN poll conducted in the US "36% of those polled who support Israel say they do sobecause they believein biblical prophecies that Jews must control Israel before
Christ will come again".

martinw718

08-29-2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Jorge
P.S. According to a Time/CNN poll conducted in the US "36% of those polled who support Israel say they do sobecause they believein biblical prophecies that Jews must control Israel before
Christ will come again".

Okay, I'm going to repeat this once more and then I'm done with these characters (they are only wasting our time with their nonsense):

The idea that Christ must wait for something before he can return contradicts the most basic tenets of evangelical Christianity. It has never been taught by evangelical Christians. It is purely a figment of the minds of people who know nothing about Christianity. Period. I'm putting you on my ignore list.
:rolleyes:

martinw718

08-29-2002, 11:57 AM

For those of you who have a brain, let me explain how this works and why those with no clue about Christian teachings have become confused:

There is an enormous difference between saying "Christ will come again after Israel again becomes a nation" and saying "Christ will come again because Israel has again become a nation."

Some people who are seriously ignorant of Christian teachings are adding a post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this) to the prophecy.

That has never been a part of Christian teaching. Christianity has never taught that Christ comes again because of something that will happen beforehand.

To say that "End Times Prophecy" is an inexact science is like saying that the Oprah show is an inexact science. And you will find about as many freaks with either one.

But to claim, as some have on here, that a lot of evangelical Christians support Israel because they believe it will speed up the Second Coming is to engage in deceit.

The motive for this deceit is simple: Rather than acknowledge that there are some very good reasons for supporting Israel, the enemies of Israel like to write it off to things like "The Jewish Lobby" and to the completely false notion that evangelicals are trying to speed up the Second Coming.

So when they quote statistics that say that such-and-such percentage of American Christians believe that the Bible prophecies the ascendancy of Israel ahead of the Second Coming, do not assume that they also believe that one causes the other. They do not. They never have.

That idea is merely another one of the forgeries concocted by Israel's enemies to explain away her supporters.

Mr. Pumps

08-29-2002, 02:43 PM

I think the term"crushed" does'nt mean didly squat anymore.

Here is the insanely powerful with every weapon under sUn that with shyness or shamefulness has let a conflict rage for 22 month. That is 22 month too long.

Not a bit of showing true strength just fuels the struggle of the desperate and bloodlust Palestinians.

i wish people would realise these procrastinating conflicts give fuel to the small guy, while giving some humiliation to the large gut for the precieved lack of resolution to end it immediately.

elke

08-29-2002, 05:06 PM

For many years I really wondered about what could have possibly happened to Europe: to go from the relative enlightenment of Greece and Rome to the horrors of the Medieval Europe lasting centuries, seemed totally out of whack! And then it hit me: Europe is not the direct descendant of the Great Pagan civilizations of Greece and Rome! It is the direct descendant of the Vandals, Franks, Goths, etc. etc.!

This is why I think that this "progress" is not something unique to the Western World, but rather a trait that humans have universally. The Ancient civilizations did not breed the European one: large swaths of them were simply absorbed into it, when the Europeans were ready to absorb this knowledge . Moreover, at least as far as Rome is concerned, something similar happened to them as well during their hey-day! The Romans swallowed the Greek civilization hook, line, and sinker, and...if you will forgive the rude term, regurgitated something that was altogether different, but yet recognizable as partially Greek nevertheless.

It seems that slowly but surely, the changes are taking place everywhere now. The very divisions into the "fundamentalists", "moderates", etc. are testaments to this fact. The real concern I have is that due to the availability of weapons of mass destruction, that we are all able to survive this hiatus.

ibrodsky

08-29-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by elke
For many years I really wondered about what could have possibly happened to Europe: to go from the relative enlightenment of Greece and Rome to the horrors of the Medieval Europe lasting centuries, seemed totally out of whack! And then it hit me: Europe is not the direct descendant of the Great Pagan civilizations of Greece and Rome! It is the direct descendant of the Vandals, Franks, Goths, etc. etc.!

Yes, but the story doesn't end there.

This is why I think that this "progress" is not something unique to the Western World, but rather a trait that humans have universally. The Ancient civilizations did not breed the European one: large swaths of them were simply absorbed into it, when the Europeans were ready to absorb this knowledge . Moreover, at least as far as Rome is concerned, something similar happened to them as well during their hey-day! The Romans swallowed the Greek civilization hook, line, and sinker, and...if you will forgive the rude term, regurgitated something that was altogether different, but yet recognizable as partially Greek nevertheless.

What defines Western civilization is not just ancient Greece and ancient Rome. It is the spirit of questioning and inquiry; the thirst for knowledge; reliance on facts and reason; and recognition that we must remain open to all sorts of ideas to get at the truth.

Certainly ancient Greece was the start. But Western civilization is also a product of the Renaissance and the Enlightment.

Progress is unique to those who put the quest for knowledge above all else. That means that if scripture contains contradictory statements there must be a mistake. And it means that if knowledge acquired through human inquiry contradicts scripture, then our understanding of scripture must be adjusted.

Though most of the great minds that contributed to Western thought lived in Europe, the torch has been passed to the US. Both Europe and the US are awash in political correctness, which seeks to overturn the achievements of Western civilization, but those achievements have been more firmly institutionalized in the US.

It seems that slowly but surely, the changes are taking place everywhere now. The very divisions into the "fundamentalists", "moderates", etc. are testaments to this fact. The real concern I have is that due to the availability of weapons of mass destruction, that we are all able to survive this hiatus.

Partly--there are clearly societies that accept the material prosperity of Western civilization but wish to remain in the Dark Ages in other ways. You can't become modern just by accepting science as the servant of religion. You need to fully accept democracy and individual rights, as well.

More important than the existence of fundamentalists and moderates is the fact that in the West the moderates dominate while in much of the East the fundamentalists still dominate.

One of the most profound and elementary statements of what Western civilization is all about was, IMO, made by Nicolaus Copernicus in "On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres."

Basically, he likened an astronomer to an artist, and argued that the astronomer must be free "...to think up or construct whatever causes of hypothesis he pleases such that, by the assumption of these causes, those same movements can be calculated..." In other words, the quest for knowledge requires total intellectual freedom.

Clearly, not all of the world accepts the idea of total intellectual freedom. In fact, we must remain vigilant even in the US, as this concept is under constant assault.

Real peace can only come when those who want to impose their dogma on others are thoroughly defeated.

elke

08-30-2002, 02:36 AM

IBrodsky, I agree with you entirely. The only thing I would like to add is that this is a gradual process. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for his inquiries, and Copernicus waited until after his death to publish his revolutionary ideas.

Humans do not develop at the same pace. There are always "forces of darkness" out there, trying to keep things as they are... just as there are "forces of light" trying to change, and improve, the human (and now, all life) condition. My point was that based on our history, it's the latter that ultimately wins... until next time!

Jorge

08-30-2002, 10:44 AM

To ayesha
Re. your post # 151:

In my opinion the four propositions you mention are quite correct. Direct intervention of the US, the EU or Arab countries seems rather unlikely for the time being. Your reading of the political situation in Israel appears, unfortunately, to be also a correct one.

I am not sure however that there is a necessary connection between your four points and the need for a new palestinian strategy quote from your # 151:

There is a desperate need for a new Palestinian strategy. What is now being done is clearly not working. More of the same will only produce more suffering, more tension and ever deepening disaster.

Are you trying to imply that the present palestinian strategy was somewhat based in bringing about a direct foreign intervention to impose a solution and that's why it has to be revised? If that's the case it was a very poor strategy
because your four points could have been easily foreseen at the beginning of the present intifadah.

I don't think there has been one palestinian strategy but at least two: one elaborated by the fundamentalist groups and the other by the PLO.

The first one appears to be based on the assumption that the carnage through terrorism actions could result in such a weakening of Israel and despair in its population that israelis would pack their bags and go elsewhere. The main goals of this strategy are not a Palestinian State in part of the land or a solution of the refugee problem, (on the contrary, these "achievements" would run contrary to their main interests) but simply the vanishing of Israel. Within the context of this strategy, armed intervention of western powers would be unwelcome since it means the involvement of more "infidels" in the jihad; the direct intervention of Arab countries like Egypt,Jordan or Syria would be unwelcome since their ways of fighting fundamentalism are rather undelicate; the hardening of the israeli position is one of their main achievements and an even harsher repression of the palestinians would be welcome by them. So, to sum it up, the four points you mention do not contain any argument conducting to a revision of the strategy of
the fundamentalist groups; I would even dare say that they reinforce in their eyes the validity of their present strategy.

The second strategy is the one adopted by the PLO; this one is far more relevant because, whilst the PLO is a potential partner for negotiations, Hamas & Co. are not. I approach this question of the PLO's strategy with the utmost caution because I am one of the few members of this Forum who are not privy to Mr. Arafat's and associates' inner thoughts and intentions. My humble reading of the PLO's behavior during the last two years is that they have followed what is called in certain circles, dynamical strategy . As opposed to ordinary strategy, in the dynamical version you change your goals, or the means to achieve them, or both, according to daily, weekly or monthly evaluations of the situation. Cynics may claim that it's the same as not having any strategy at all but they ignore the fact that dynamical strategy has a certain ring to it that makes it sound respectable. Anyway, if my interpretation is correct, their strategy have more or less well defined aims or goals ( a palestinian state in 1967 borders, division of Jerusalem and limited return of refugees) but ill-defined or variable means of achieving those goals. The means adopted seem to vary from covert or overt terrorism, face to face negotiations, international umbrellas or just mere inaction.

The dilemma facing the PLO's leadership is by no means simple and this might explain their hesitant or ambiguous formulations. They are confronted with two enemies with well defined strategies of their own: on one side the fundamentalist groups and on the other the present israeli government, both
allergic to a peace process and doing their best to sabotage it. To sort out the correct options in those conditions and be persistent, requires outstanding leaders which we hope will rise soon, for the sake of us all.

Mediocrates

08-31-2002, 10:18 AM

Perhaps we need to go back to first principals. Is peace even the central issue to the Palestinians? Is freedom? I would have to say no they are not.

After WW2, political philosophers debated whether freedom was the central issue in a Cold War world. And it framed the conflict between east and west. But this is dramatically different isn't it. Freedom is irrelevant to the Palestinians. Peace is superfluous. The central issue in and of itself is victory. What they do with it doesn't really concern them.

elke

09-01-2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Perhaps we need to go back to first principals. Is peace even the central issue to the Palestinians? Is freedom? I would have to say no they are not.

After WW2, political philosophers debated whether freedom was the central issue in a Cold War world. And it framed the conflict between east and west. But this is dramatically different isn't it. Freedom is irrelevant to the Palestinians. Peace is superfluous. The central issue in and of itself is victory. What they do with it doesn't really concern them.

Do you really think so? I mean, the man on the street, the Palestinian "Joe Shmoe" would care about victory and nothing more?

I don't know. This may be naive, but it certainly seems to me that a universal human trait is self-interest. The interests of an average Joe, whether in Ramallah, Tel Aviv, or Timbuktu are probably food, shelter, and other such mundane things.

While I agree that the Palestinian leadership's interest, as well as that of the other Muslim world countries', is not peace - because they will then have to deal with the internal matters - I find it hard to believe that any regular person in the street will find this nebulous "victory" something worth dying for, certainly not if they thought it through on their own, without "help" from the propaganda machine.

dodo

09-02-2002, 01:00 AM

no peace
without changing Israely mentality for big Israel
no peace without respection of palestinians human rights
no peace with continious desperation of palestinians
no peace with Israely greedy intentions for gaining more land

DODO
former FAIR

Vic

09-02-2002, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by elke
Do you really think so? I mean, the man on the street, the Palestinian "Joe Shmoe" would care about victory and nothing more?

I don't know. This may be naive, but it certainly seems to me that a universal human trait is self-interest. The interests of an average Joe, whether in Ramallah, Tel Aviv, or Timbuktu are probably food, shelter, and other such mundane things.

While I agree that the Palestinian leadership's interest, as well as that of the other Muslim world countries', is not peace - because they will then have to deal with the internal matters - I find it hard to believe that any regular person in the street will find this nebulous "victory" something worth dying for, certainly not if they thought it through on their own, without "help" from the propaganda machine. So the real question is: could the Palestinian "Joe Shmoes" become a political force powerful enough to crush the current leadership and provide for one that would act in their interest? (Umm..., do I hear someone whisper "democracy"?)

Mediocrates

09-02-2002, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by elke

Do you really think so? I mean, the man on the street, the Palestinian "Joe Shmoe" would care about victory and nothing more?

Well I'm surrounded by middleclass Americans who all agree and clamor for the destruction of Iraq, who wanted nothing more than a paved over Afghanistan and who, in pleasant conversations will tell you the only good arab is a dead arab. So yeah I think that Achmed Shmoe does think that victory is the goal in and of itself. Through a portfolio of means. Some think bombs, some think babies, some think sanctions, and so on.

elke

09-02-2002, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Vic
So the real question is: could the Palestinian "Joe Shmoes" become a political force powerful enough to crush the current leadership and provide for one that would act in their interest? (Umm..., do I hear someone whisper "democracy"?)

I wish it was that simple: have a democratically-elected government, and all will be well. You and I both know, Vic, that successful democracy implies ability to stand on one's own two feet intellectually by a large enough proportion of the population. This includes being able to see further than one's own nose and accept civilized dissent.

It is difficult to gauge whether or not such a situation exists on the ground in the PA territories today. Things like the "executions" of those ladies cast doubt on it, however. It seems that the "propaganda machine" has been very successfully employed for brainwashing the general population, by tying the self-interest to that "victory" Mediocrates spoke of, instead of tying it to peace.

Mr. Pumps

09-02-2002, 11:45 AM

I truely do not know about Iraq, there is a clamor for instant action, but I don't think instant action should be allowed with a comprehensive look at the after effects of such a decision.

Mediocrates, do the middle class people in your area know of the infinite outcomes either negative or positive that could come out of such a war. I think a well thought out decision is vast more capable of avoiding a potential bad decision than a pathetic "lets get'em".

Sure the Arabs are backward, but they number in the hundred of millions and with these people precieving a anti-arab biase attacking Iraq could awake Millions of potential terrorists.

I don't want to hear one day the, middle east has experienced a couple of killings and than after Iraq all chaos and hell breaking out killing tens of thousands. I in a way, agree with Mubarak, there is tons and tons of gasoline aound and the matches have created managagble sparks, but don't throw in a torch . I really hope that is not a forewarning.

In essence I am afraid Israel being a small nation would benefit from such a attack as the Scuds would dissapear,yet the trickle effect and rise in anti-U.S and Israeli sediment blowing up after a attack would bury the U.S and Israel in a tougher position than they would have ever liked. I am clearly sorta wary.

gev

09-02-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by elke

I wish it was that simple: have a democratically-elected government, and all will be well. You and I both know, Vic, that successful democracy implies ability to stand on one's own two feet intellectually by a large enough proportion of the population. This includes being able to see further than one's own nose and accept civilized dissent.

It is difficult to gauge whether or not such a situation exists on the ground in the PA territories today. Things like the "executions" of those ladies cast doubt on it, however. It seems that the "propaganda machine" has been very successfully employed for brainwashing the general population, by tying the self-interest to that "victory" Mediocrates spoke of, instead of tying it to peace.

I don't know about that, elke. I think this is the same picture the palestinian see when looking on the Israeli side: a society, fed by propoganda, only care about winning and depressing the palestinians.

While the majority of the Israelies are living their routine life, so do the majority of palestinians, it wouldn't be so far fetched to think that every day palestinians are conducting among themselves political arguments such as these.

What democracy does is bringing the debate out to the open, to the media,for everyone to see and choose the side they agree with.

I still beleive that the avarage palestinian wants and always wanted his basic rights, he only was pursuaded (or not) that the only way to get them is Arafat's way.

NewsGuy

09-02-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by gev
I still believe that the avarage palestinian wants and always wanted his basic rights, he only was pursuaded (or not) that the only way to get them is Arafat's way.

The only problem being that the "basic rights" referred to, include preventing the Jewish people from living in the Jewish homeland.

As for being "persuaded," I don't buy that. The process has been going on for many years and there has been plenty of time for the Palestinians to consider the consequences of their support for terrorism.

At this point, I believe that the desire to massacre Jews, is a national aspiration of many Arabs and other Muslims. It is not a result of being manipulated by their corrupt leaders, but rather it is an active decision and way of life.

That is why I believe the Palestinians to be collectively guilty and deserving of collective punishment -- first and foremost a sharp reduction in the amount of land offered for the second Palestinian state.

Mediocrates

09-02-2002, 01:56 PM

Mediocrates, do the middle class people in your area know of the infinite outcomes either negative or positive that could come out of such a war. I think a well thought out decision is vast more capable of avoiding a potential bad decision than a pathetic "lets get'em".

Most of the people I see repeat what they see on Fox News (Murdoch) and express the same sentiment. "Let's pound the (Iraqi) bastards and reap the bonus of cheap oil." I doubt the average soccer mom or golfer dad has thought beyond that. And I doubt even more that anyone down here in the Bible Belt couples Israel with Iraqi threats.

elke

09-02-2002, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by gev

I don't know about that, elke. I think this is the same picture the palestinian see when looking on the Israeli side: a society, fed by propoganda, only care about winning and depressing the palestinians.

While the majority of the Israelies are living their routine life, so do the majority of palestinians, it wouldn't be so far fetched to think that every day palestinians are conducting among themselves political arguments such as these.

What democracy does is bringing the debate out to the open, to the media,for everyone to see and choose the side they agree with.

I still beleive that the avarage palestinian wants and always wanted his basic rights, he only was pursuaded (or not) that the only way to get them is Arafat's way.

Basically, I agree with you, Gev. I think that the average Palestinian wants regular life, nothing more.

Here is the problem I see: based on my experience in the FSU, although many people did have "critical" conversations around the dinner table and whatnot, many emigres have had trouble adjusting to the democratic mindset - and that's in countries that already had a democratic setup in place! What we are asking the Palestinians to do is start from scratch, and build the democratic setup. I am looking, from the outside admittedly, at the FSU, and seeing people actually discussing how it was better "before". This is because the "average Joe" is interested in the basic things in life: the food, shelter, etc. etc. Ultimately, one can't eat freedom. The trouble is that without freedom one can't do other things one wants to do, after s/he's eaten.

Given the adequately sophisticated propaganda the Palestinians have been fed for decades, I wonder how well they can adjust to independence in the immediate future. Problems do not disappear in a democracy, they are simply out in the open. I agree that democracy is part of the answer, but I do think that the complete process needs to be thought through well, and adequate aid - financial and otherwise - needs to be provided to them, in order to assure success.

Mediocrates

09-02-2002, 03:39 PM

Some problems become quite a bit worse under democracy - as in the FSU today and many of the downstream consumer economies that people have to suffer with as well as organized crime. Someone far wiser than I, maybe it was de Tocqueville or Bakunin, said "Every nation is three meals from its next revolution."

I tend to think that Glasnost and Perestroika are decoupled from one another and that progress in one sphere does not imply success in the other. There are many one party more or less fascist nations by Western standards, like Singapore or Taiwan where vast numbers of people live in comfort and security. There is little overt political dissent not because they are free but because they are satisfied.

At any rate I believe less and less that there is a democratic solution for the Palestinians. That is not to say there is an economic one but it is not coupled to republicanism or democratic institutions including the ones that maintain laws and legislature, checks and balances, courts, transparent election laws and the gamut.

I tend to think that a 'free' Palestine looks more like Jordan w/o a king than it looks like Denmark w/o a king, or perhaps Vietnam. A kind of one party benign neocommunist capitalist hybrid where the beatific face of The One Maximum Leader beams down. Where most economic policy and mechanism is administered by local strongmen (or women) in a loose quasifeudal confederacy and it receives a strong shove from the central planning body on important issues from the top down.

elke

09-02-2002, 04:43 PM

This is going to involve generalizations on a grandiose scale, but here it goes anyway:

One of the things I have always admired about Americans is that they do not idealize any leader until s/he is dead and harmless. Same cannot be said about Russia, for example, where the personality cults have been historically rampant, during the despots' lifetimes as well as (sometimes) posthumously.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, it seems that even though many are aware of the corruption and oppression in the PA, it seems that generally Arafat is absolved of the PA's sins.

The reason this is significant is that successful democracy requires its citizens, among other things, to have faith in the system rather than a man; while the totalitarian rule is quite the opposite. The changeover from one system to the other is difficult, because it requires a change in mindset - a notoriously difficult and time-consuming thing to change.

I am not saying that it's impossible for the Palestinians to have a democratic, responsible, transparent government. It's just that democracy is not a panacea to all the ills. IMO, it should be viewed as a very important step, but one of many and possibly not the first one - on the road to peace in the Middle East.

Mr. Pumps

10-15-2002, 06:40 PM

If Saudi Arabia falls to the Islamists, America should cut all supply chains of parts and knowledge to their American equipment in Arab hands. Period. If they DO betray us. let their F-15. F-16, Hawk missiles, M1 Tanks turn into immense piles of waste garabage until they crawl back to the Americans.

Maybe the "intelligent" Egyptians will make a a plane or Tank of their own or make ex. soviet junk on treads and call it a warmachine like the Iranians do.

Let the Israelis fight pieces of unkept American made usable trash in a conflict, left to rot in the Egypt army depots for lack of parts.

Teacake

10-15-2002, 07:56 PM

Mr. Pumps I don't get your drift? saudi arabia is already 100% islamic and is where mecca is located.

Mr. Pumps

10-16-2002, 04:53 AM

This is my drift, if the Saudis have a Islamic overthrow of the Saud monarchy then let there F-15 Aircraft and M1A2 Tanks gain rust in the desert and Egypt too.

We are supporting a puppet regieme, but if the saudis take take the backward religious political system road instead of freedom, let them and have oil for their American machines, but that is it.

Mr. Pumps

11-03-2002, 02:59 PM

It's funny the last fifty years have been a dumb excuse?.

In 1949 Israel was established, and the Arabs tried and failed to ruin her.

Israel is so small compared to the whole middleeast it is a incredible joke the arabs did'nt lets her be. As Israel progressed being more modern than all the middle east, the Arabs missed the "well jeez! here is a tiny group making wonderous things out of a speck of land.....lets develop ourselves and become just as progressed as this tiny example is" instead launching war after war on the medieval "allah akbar" Religious fantical theme and stone age thinking and blaming israel for all Arab primitivness has be going on for fifty years, it's incredible the blame such a small land with such a small population for the backwardsness they are still now. :rolleyes: Sorry Israel is respondsible why a land 10,000 times bigger can't get of the 15th century or other nations are well out of there league in terms of development. Excuses, Excuses, Excuses! yeah you missed the gravy train and will always miss the gravy train because of yourself F'ing you up.

soral

11-10-2002, 01:37 PM

Firstly, everybody (in the civilised world) has the right to their own opinion, just as I have the right to disagree with you.

The West Bank and Gaza arabs, or at least a sizeable number of them, do not want peace, or a two-state solution. Arabs want to push Israel into the sea.

You cannot have peace unless both sides are willing. If Israel withdrew all of its troops and settlements from all the territories today, Arabs would still send their children to Tel-Aviv to kill innocent Jews.

Is Arabs stopped fighting there would be no more war, if Israel stopped fighting, there would be no more Israel.

Peace is possible in the Mid East, but it will come through the barrel of a gun. The Arabs will never accept Israel, peace will come when "palestinians" are in their true homeland of Jordan (which occupies 75% of palestine).

Long live Israel

Ben Zion

11-13-2002, 12:47 PM

Peace is certainly possible and in fact far more intractible conflicts have been resolved than that between Arabs and Israelis. For example, France and Germany, China versus Japan, Russia versus Germany. All of those conflicts involved far greater loss of life and destruction than is ever likely between Israel and the Arabs. In fact the Israeli Arab conflict is relatively low level violence and certainly no red lines have been crossed in terms of there never being a possibility of peace. I mean for a start many Jews now live in Germany. This initself says that human beings ultimately will put aside differences. However we must also recognise that there are a number of long term drivers of conflict. These are
- the social and economic structures amongst the Palestinians
- the weak system of government in israel
- the legacy of persecution complexes
- the ideological bancruptcy of Zionism in modern Israel
- Arab systems of government and political economy

I think that these are each big issues but can all actually be resolved. I do not propose to offer up a peace plan in this message but at this stage it would suffice to say that Israel actually retains its own destiny. If Israel is able to conduct the necessary internal political reform there can be a peace process.

A peace process will ultimately create the preconditions for its own success - economic prosperity etc

Mediocrates

11-13-2002, 12:50 PM

What would a progressive zionist state look like? And why is historical zionism bankrupt?

Ben Zion

11-13-2002, 01:12 PM

A progressive Zionist state would be focused on achieving the objectives of Zionism - i.e. a powerful Jewish state that offers a true homeland for Jews. The question is that 'power' does not grow out of settlements, but rather economic strength, national unity and demographic growth. When I say unity I do not mean some kind of backward looking nationalism but cleary Israel now has too many agendas to be able to say that it has a unifying philosophy. Israel must focus on its economic growth. It must also seperate religion and state. The religious communities are are greater danger for Israel than Hamas in the long term. Israel has the highest rate of non participation in the economy than any country in the western world.

Now in terms of the bankruptcy of Zionism - it is quite clear that Zionism no longer offers a philosophy of action amongst either Israelis or Jews abroad. Zionism seems to be wholly absent from the Israeli political debate. The practical links between Israel and non-Israeli Jews are becoming weaker. Israel does not offer an attractive or practical propostion for many western Jews. Many non-western jews still use Israel as a staging post. If we look at Islamic fundamentalism, they have very good techniques for mobilising young people in practical ways (not including terrorism!) Israel does not actively recruit young Jews in the diaspora to assist it apart from fund raising. That is not the only part of Zionism. I have always proposed a proper representative Zionism congress with a representative seat in the Israeli Cabinet.

Mediocrates

11-13-2002, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Ben Zion
A progressive Zionist state would be focused on achieving the objectives of Zionism - i.e. a powerful Jewish state that offers a true homeland for Jews. The question is that 'power' does not grow out of settlements, but rather economic strength, national unity and demographic growth. When I say unity I do not mean some kind of backward looking nationalism but cleary Israel now has too many agendas to be able to say that it has a unifying philosophy. Israel must focus on its economic growth.

Thank you, I understand that

It must also seperate religion and state. The religious communities are are greater danger for Israel than Hamas in the long term.

I guess you mean economically? Or do you mean something else?

Israel has the highest rate of non participation in the economy than any country in the western world.

Is that linked to the issue above? I would say not.

Now in terms of the bankruptcy of Zionism - it is quite clear that Zionism no longer offers a philosophy of action amongst either Israelis or Jews abroad.

I can see that as a non Israeli, is it generally true for Israelis? I'm not even sure what that means.

Zionism seems to be wholly absent from the Israeli political debate.

Interesting, what's the recommendation?

The practical links between Israel and non-Israeli Jews are becoming weaker. Israel does not offer an attractive or practical propostion for many western Jews. Many non-western jews still use Israel as a staging post.

Hmm probably true to some extent. We here are the preferred destination, to some extent.

If we look at Islamic fundamentalism, they have very good techniques for mobilising young people in practical ways (not including terrorism!)

With religion? Or something quite like it?

Israel does not actively recruit young Jews in the diaspora to assist it apart from fund raising. That is not the only part of Zionism. I have always proposed a proper representative Zionism congress with a representative seat in the Israeli Cabinet.

This is a great idea, let's flesh it out.

NewsGuy

11-13-2002, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Ben Zion
Now in terms of the bankruptcy of Zionism - it is quite clear that Zionism no longer offers a philosophy of action amongst either Israelis or Jews abroad.

Where do you get this from? Zionism is alive and well in Israel and abroad.

Zionism seems to be wholly absent from the Israeli political debate.

No, it is the entire basis of Israel's Centrist, and Right wing parties, and it's even the basis of some Left-wing parties.

Israel does not offer an attractive or practical propostion for many western Jews.
But for many Jews and non-Jews, the countries they live in also don't offer such an attractive package. France and Belgium, for example, are full of anti-Semitism, resulting in increased Aliyah from those countries this year.

Do you have a source for your statements or are these just your opinions based on... what?

If we look at Islamic fundamentalism, they have very good techniques for mobilising young people in practical ways (not including terrorism!)

Such as?

Israel does not actively recruit young Jews in the Diaspora to assist it apart from fund raising.

Completely false. There are, in fact, extensive recruitment programs for young people, including the Birthright project, where every Jewish high school gets a free airline ticket to Israel as part of an overall program, as well as many other similar programs.

I have always proposed a proper representative Zionism congress...

It already exists and is known as the Knesset.

Ben Zion

11-14-2002, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Where do you get this from? Zionism is alive and well in Israel and abroad.

Zionism is certainly not alive and well. A few black tie dinners is not Zionism and neither is standing in front of the white house holding banners. Zionism is about developing and implementing the Jewish national objectives. Now there is not even agreement what those are! Zionism is a disaster and the net outcome of this is the crisis in Israel.

No, it is the entire basis of Israel's Centrist, and Right wing parties, and it's even the basis of some Left-wing parties.

Not true - look at the next election and see how many times Zionism is mentioned and how many parties actually propose a rational debate on what Zionism means for contemporary Israel.

But for many Jews and non-Jews, the countries they live in also don't offer such an attractive package. France and Belgium, for example, are full of anti-Semitism, resulting in increased Aliyah from those countries this year.

The fact that Jews do not find France attractive has no logical relationship with Zionism. Sure you can come to Israel as some kind of refugee but that is not the same as Zionism.

Do you have a source for your statements or are these just your opinions based on... what?

The vindication of my opinions is the here and now. Just look at the mess Israel is in, the rate of demographic decline of Jewry and the absence of any unifying philosophy of the Jews

Such as?

Completely false. There are, in fact, extensive recruitment programs for young people, including the Birthright project, where every Jewish high school gets a free airline ticket to Israel as part of an overall program, as well as many other similar programs.

Again - I welcome Birthright but it is not actually a substitute for a adult relationship between Jews throughout the world. Visiting ISrael is just a good thing to do - but I visit Spain every year - so what?

It already exists and is known as the Knesset.

The Knesset is not a Zionist organ because it represents the factional interests of people rather than the national interest of Isreal. I can give you a list of 100 Knesset resolutions that are clearly anti-Zionist in practice if not intention. This is not suprising because non of the Israeli parties actually practice Zionism. They actually practice what you Americans call pork barrel politics - but it is even more sickening than in America

Ben Zion

11-14-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Thank you, I understand that

I guess you mean economically? Or do you mean something else?

Economically, socially, militarily, in terms of freedom of thought and action- do I need to continue?

Is that linked to the issue above? I would say not.

Yes it is. They don't work because they prey. What value do they add to the nation?

I can see that as a non Israeli, is it generally true for Israelis? I'm not even sure what that means.

Zionism is about doing things - it is not about thinking and talking about things. Israel was built by pioneers not by Internet forums.

Interesting, what's the recommendation?

Hmm probably true to some extent. We here are the preferred destination, to some extent.

With religion? Or something quite like it?

This is a great idea, let's flesh it out.

I will do - although I am still fleshing it out myself!

MGB8

11-18-2002, 08:41 AM

I'm sorry Ben Zion, but you are, IMO, Wrong on many counts.

First,

on the conflicts you mentioned, none is as deeply rooted as the Arab Israeli conflict, which is not just a conflict of nations, but a conflict of cultures.

The English and French still where White Christians (Catholics) and viewed themselves as a world appart from the new world and the "barbarians" in africa and asia. There was tons of intermingling by blood, politically, economically.

Russia and German really is a much smaller conflict than you make it out to be - since Germany was a "late" developing nation and Russia its enemy mostly WWII and post.

Even China and Japan have more in common than apart, and aside from WWII, do not have the true hatred that exists for the Jews by the Arab Muslims.

No, this is not comparable at all to those conflicts, its much much worse. They refuse to trade with Israel because of its existence. In fact they deny its existence (did Japan ever Deny China's existence, or England France's). This is about pride and religion.

SECOND,

as to your "economics" point, there is ZERO evidence that poverty has ANYTHING TO DO with anti-Israeli fervor.

To the contrary, the more well educated Arabs ("Palestinians," Egyptians, Saudi's) are even more vehement than the population at large.

Your "precondition to peace" is BS. Japan was economically strong before it warred in WW2, Germany also (WW1 and WW2). Napoleon's France was strong, as were the imperialist British and Spanish who warred often (including with each other).

ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY!

Its about CULTURE!

The only Arabs that you see taking a softer line are (1) THOSE IN THE WEST, and (2) THOSE EDUCATED IN THE WEST - ie. Sarrai Nussebeih (sp).

Why? Because by living in the West they are indocrinated with Western Values, including the Millsian Utopian ideal, as well as much Judea-Christian philosophy.

Its NOT MONEY that will create peace, its is EXHAUSTION FROM WAR. That is what history tells us. That when parties are too worn out to fight, when they believe the fighting has no potential gain for them, they finally stop.

That was WW2, and that was the Hundred Years War, and it was many other wars as well.

The only way Israel will have peace is to WIN THE WAR!

Originally posted by Ben Zion
Peace is certainly possible and in fact far more intractible conflicts have been resolved than that between Arabs and Israelis. For example, France and Germany, China versus Japan, Russia versus Germany. All of those conflicts involved far greater loss of life and destruction than is ever likely between Israel and the Arabs. In fact the Israeli Arab conflict is relatively low level violence and certainly no red lines have been crossed in terms of there never being a possibility of peace. I mean for a start many Jews now live in Germany. This initself says that human beings ultimately will put aside differences. However we must also recognise that there are a number of long term drivers of conflict. These are
- the social and economic structures amongst the Palestinians
- the weak system of government in israel
- the legacy of persecution complexes
- the ideological bancruptcy of Zionism in modern Israel
- Arab systems of government and political economy

I think that these are each big issues but can all actually be resolved. I do not propose to offer up a peace plan in this message but at this stage it would suffice to say that Israel actually retains its own destiny. If Israel is able to conduct the necessary internal political reform there can be a peace process.

A peace process will ultimately create the preconditions for its own success - economic prosperity etc

Ben Zion

11-20-2002, 02:41 PM

You are very misinformed and you have decided the answer before the question has even been asked.
You are making a very simplistic statement that the more educated Arabs are the most radical. You then go on to argue that a wide scale modernisation of Arab society would therefore increase the chances of war and terror. This is very lazy thinking because in fact there is a great difference between the perspective of an educational elite in a backward society and a modern society. The fact is that of course educated Saudis will demonstrate the cultural drawbacks of Saudi Arabia. Being educated does not prevent one from being a radical and in fact the educated often see it as their duty as one of the privaleged few to act as a vanguard. This has been the case in Russia, China, Vietnam, Latin America etc etc. However when an economy is modern and the benefits of modernity are more equally spread so the whole balance in society changes. Your argument about cultural determinism is really 1960's sociology. Culture is one of the most hollow words in the world. Culture is nothing more than the next TV show. Where there is a dynamic of change there is a change in culture (see Eastern Europe post communism)

MGB8

11-20-2002, 03:48 PM

Ah, mild name-calling. No, I'm not misinformed at all.

I made one point and asked one question, and you replied to neither.

The point I made was that this conflict is very different than the ones you mentioned, because of the segregation of these two peoples - Jews and Arabs, in identity, commerce, religion, etc. There is no outsider that really make Jews and Arabs one of the same group - a "Semetic group" if you will, like there is for Asian or White European.

The question I asked was "can you present any evidence." And of course you can't. Then I pointed out facts, which have been shown on numerous occasions, that presently the more educated Arabs are in fact more radical in nature than the poorer Arabs.

You responded with mere speculation.

Culture means a lot more than you give it credit for, also.

We are the product of our founding cultures - a combination of Greco-Roman democracy and philosophy, Judea-Christian concepts of right or wrong, Catholoc notions of Propriety, Protestant notions of work ethic, etc.

Jews are culturally different than other groups, and often times more similar to each other, regardless of country.

-----

Originally posted by Ben Zion
You are very misinformed and you have decided the answer before the question has even been asked.
You are making a very simplistic statement that the more educated Arabs are the most radical. You then go on to argue that a wide scale modernisation of Arab society would therefore increase the chances of war and terror. This is very lazy thinking because in fact there is a great difference between the perspective of an educational elite in a backward society and a modern society. The fact is that of course educated Saudis will demonstrate the cultural drawbacks of Saudi Arabia. Being educated does not prevent one from being a radical and in fact the educated often see it as their duty as one of the privaleged few to act as a vanguard. This has been the case in Russia, China, Vietnam, Latin America etc etc. However when an economy is modern and the benefits of modernity are more equally spread so the whole balance in society changes. Your argument about cultural determinism is really 1960's sociology. Culture is one of the most hollow words in the world. Culture is nothing more than the next TV show. Where there is a dynamic of change there is a change in culture (see Eastern Europe post communism)

NewsGuy

11-20-2002, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Ben Zion
...This is not suprising because non of the Israeli parties actually practice Zionism.

This is a pretty strange view.

But I guess that I should not be surprised considering your definition of "progressive" Zionism is really not a Zionist view at all, but rather an Arabist view.

reason

11-22-2002, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Ben Zion
Peace is certainly possible and in fact far more intractible conflicts have been resolved than that between Arabs and Israelis. For example, France and Germany, China versus Japan, Russia versus Germany. All of those conflicts involved far greater loss of life and destruction than is ever likely between Israel and the Arabs. In fact the Israeli Arab conflict is relatively low level violence and certainly no red lines have been crossed in terms of there never being a possibility of peace. I mean for a start many Jews now live in Germany. This initself says that human beings ultimately will put aside differences. However we must also recognise that there are a number of long term drivers of conflict. These are
- the social and economic structures amongst the Palestinians
- the weak system of government in israel
- the legacy of persecution complexes
- the ideological bancruptcy of Zionism in modern Israel
- Arab systems of government and political economy

I think that these are each big issues but can all actually be resolved. I do not propose to offer up a peace plan in this message but at this stage it would suffice to say that Israel actually retains its own destiny. If Israel is able to conduct the necessary internal political reform there can be a peace process.

A peace process will ultimately create the preconditions for its own success - economic prosperity etc

Very well said.

MGB8

11-22-2002, 12:57 PM

Ah, someone arrogant enough to call themselves "reason." Is your other handle "Truth." How about "Divine Revalation."

Like he, you pay no heed to the major problems in his arguments, like the fact that the conflicts that he listed were universally less intractable, and that economic prosperity has never been shown to have any link towards peacefullness.

fischman

11-25-2002, 07:44 PM

Hi Folks,

I'm new to the forum. I would just like to make a few comments.

First off, there are two options that the arabs have for peace. It is obvious that Israel will go to great lengths for peace, but the arabs have never been able to offer more than just their word. After the Oslo mess, Israel has no other option but to say that is no longer enough. The arabs must provide something that is irrevocable. It is far to easy for the arabs to say "Give us land and we'll give you peace" and then go back on their word. Israel has offered land for promises in the past, but it is no longer an option. Israel's offers have been irrevocable, but the arabs have always been able to just change their mind. We see for the past 2 years that Israel cannot simply take back land, and Arafat can simply break his word.

These two options would ensure peace. First, the arabs must open their borders to the Palestinians and stop blaming Israel for the refugees they created. Second, the arabs must find a leader that will enforce laws enough to kill another arab to save a Jewish life. Arabs have shown over and over that they can find a leader that will kill arabs to save their own regimes, but they must find a leader that has a sense of justice that will protect Jews as well as themselves.

I have a hard time believing that an arab leader is available that will defend Jews. As long as that condition is not met, Israel can never open their country up to an armed hostile regime within its borders. The mini-regime of Arafat showed what the consequences of a Palestinian state could be.

I do believe that this war on terrorism could change the makeup of the middle east dramatically. I do feel that if some regimes are toppled and replaced with democracies, truth and justice will prevail. I do hope and believe that the new middle east will eventually stabilize due to the absence of military dictatorships. I do strongly feel that the dictatorships themselves foster the hatred of little Israel.

Anyone can dream
Marc