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MGB8
08-02-2002, 07:06 AM
I'm starting this thread to put down specific facts about this conflict that we can all agree on and are historically verified.

I'm going to list a couple on this post and will list more as we go on.

If you list a fact on this board, you MUST cite the source (for example The New York Times, Post-Zionist Scholar Benny Morris, www.mideastweb.org etc.)

A note about mideastweb.org - it IS NOT a pro-Israeli site, its as neutral as I can find. It does not mention that the 1973 war was begun on Yom Kippur, nor does it call it the Yom Kippur war, for example. It also cites a bunch of "after-the-fact" historians, so I'm suspicious about some of their writings.


Lets start with a couple:

1. Israel was home of the Jewish People from as early as 1800 BC until about 135 AD. (133-135 was revolt)

The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples and invading tribes . Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C., a Semitic people called Hebrews (hapiru) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. King David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of transjordan, but the kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm



2. The Romans expelled the Jews from Israel and changed the Areas name from Judea to Palestine in 135 AD, subsequent to the Great Revolt.

In A.D. 135, the Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem. The Romans named the area Palaestina, at about this time. The name Palaestina, which became Palestine in English, is derived from Herodotus, who used the term Palaistine Syria to refer to the entire southern part of Syria, meaning "Philistine Syria." Most of the Jews who continued to practice their religion fled or were forcibly exiled from Palestine, eventually forming a second Jewish Diaspora. However, Jewish communities continued to exist in Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the A.D. 300's and then by the Byzantine Empire. In time, Christianity spread to most of Palestine. The population consisted of Jewish converts to Christianity and paganism, peoples imported by the Romans, and others who had probably inhabited Palestine continuously.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm



3. Arabs came to Judea in the 600's.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm


4. In 1071 the Turks took over the area, and with the exception of the Crusaders (1099-1187) and Egyptians (mamaluks 1200's-1517) held the land until the end of WWI.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm


5. According toour best knowledge, there were about 400K (about 24K jews) people in the area around 1880, 700K(about 85-100K Jews) in 1914, and about 600K Jews and 1.2Mil Arabs in 1948.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm


6. In 1917 Britain promised the area's both East (Jordan) and West (Israel) of the Jordan river as a Jewish homeland, but in 1922 changed that to only the Western part.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm


7. The 6 day war was, from the Israeli perspective, a preemptive strike.

in Mid-May, 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Nasser again closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismissed the UN peace force from the Sinai Peninsula. The United States failed to live up to its guarantees of freedom of the waterways to Israel. A torrent of bellicose rhetoric issued from Arab capitals and in the UN. At the UN, PLO Chairman Ahmed Shukhairy announced that "if it will be our privilege to strike the first blow" the PLO would expel from Palestine all Zionists who had arrived after 1917 and eliminate the state of Israel. Nasser said on May 27, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." On May 28, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."

On May 30, Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt, readying itself for war. King Hussein stated: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations."

On June 4, Iraq likewise joined a military alliance with Egypt and committed itself to war. On May 31, the Iraqi President Rahman Aref announced, "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Teacake
08-02-2002, 08:26 AM
Excellent idea MGB8


http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/index.html
History of Israel, from 1850-present


http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html
The muslim connection to the nazis

MGB8
08-02-2002, 08:37 AM
Some good quotes from your first link:

Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity.
There is no language known as Palestinian.
There is no distinct Palestinian culture.

There has never been a land known as Palestine
governed by Palestinians.

Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians
(another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today . . . No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

-- from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah,
Arab-American editor and journalist,
WorldNetDaily.Com, 11 October 2000


"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."

-- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not"

-- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to
Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
-- Delegate of Saudi Arabia to the
United Nations Security Council, 1956,





Originally posted by Teacake
Excellent idea MGB8


http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/index.html
History of Israel, from 1850-present


http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html
The muslim connection to the nazis

Simon
08-02-2002, 08:43 AM
This thread is very educational for Indians (or other non-muslims) who approach the ME imbroglio with an open mind. I already know a lot about the history and seek to learn more.

Some questions: (I have many more but cant remember them all now)

(1) What does eretz mean? I have heard the term Eretz Israel before.

(2) Who/what are Hassidim?

(3) Does Sabra mean a native (Israel)-born person?

MGB8
08-02-2002, 08:49 AM
(1) Eretz means "land" Eretz Yisrael means Land of Israel.

(2) Hassidim are very orthodox, very religious jews...black hatters...not necessarily, however, lubavichers, which are a group of Hassids with distinct beliefs and followers of a specific rabbi.

(3) I'm not sure of the dictionary meaning, but that's how its used pretty much.

eyl
08-02-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by MGB8
(3) I'm not sure of the dictionary meaning

It's a plant (somewhat similiar to a cactus)

danholo
08-03-2002, 04:45 AM
ts18,

Like the others, you could start to give some links and sources your "facts".

Probably the funniest arab propaganda in the world is:

Israel kicked Arabs from their homes.

Israeli Arabs are discriminated in Israel as second class citizens.

These two seriously contradict each other.
How can Arabs be discriminated if there are none in Israel?!
The problem with Arab propaganda, unlike Israeli, is that they contradict each other very often and often get get caught in the same whirlpool and the most hilarious thing is, that everybody believes it! Mr. Göbbles would be proud!

Teacake
08-03-2002, 05:26 AM
TS,

Opinion brought about by fabrication based on opinion are not facts.

Gilgamesh
08-03-2002, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by Simon
(1) What does eretz mean? I have heard the term Eretz Israel before.
Ertz means "land of". E'retz Ys'ra'el - land of Israel. The ' means and interval between sylabels. You might be curioius to know the Name of India in hebrew: We use the name mention in the bible for your home country: Ho'du. It is mentioned in the scroll of Esther, as the estern most boundry of the Persian empire, in 5-6th century BC.

What is the indian name for "land of" ?
The sound "er" for land is common in all the western languages (earth, terra, er'da, er'aa, eretz) does it exist in idian languages as well?


Originally posted by Simon
(2) Who/what are Hassidim?

Hassid means a follower or a believer. Orthodox Jew, who is not a Hassid, is a Mitnaged hebrew for someone who does not approve or resists. A Mitnaged, calls the Hassid a Hassid Shote, which means a blind follower or a stupid follower. In the past, there was a schasm in jewish relious and philosophical thought, which drifted families apart, brothers, sons and fathers, quarlled
terribly.

The Hassidim is a philosofical/religious streem in a orthodox Jewdaism. It evolved chiefly by the "Ba'al Shem Tov", in the 17th century AD, following a tormented period in Jewish history: Wide spread massacres of Jews in Poland, which resulted in the rise and fall of a false messiah and strong hopes and wishes for Jewish sovereignty restoration in Eretz israel. At the hight of expectations from the false messiah, there were even plans to build an army to reclaim the lands. AFAIK, the Hassidic consepts evolved from within the group of Jews that believe in the false messiah (not all Jews believe that the messiah was real). the "Ba'al Shem Tov" was the title of the Rabbi that founded the Hassidic movement.

Following the beliefe in the return of the messiah, that only later was found to be false, Hassidc


Originally posted by Simon
(3) Does Sabra mean a native (Israel)-born person?

Sabra means the fruit of the Sa'bar (Hebrew for cactus) it is a nick name for Israeli born Jews, given to them, by Jews who were born elsewhere, becaues what was seemed, Israelis bad menares amd agresive and chicky attitude: Like the cactus fruit: stings all over, on the out side, sweet in the inside.

We do have menares, only Israeli menares! It's like the menares that exist within one big family. Israeli behavior, in my opinion is charecteraized by strong sense of brotherhood. We really happy to meet each other, and we honestly care each other wellfare. There is a fact that every two israelis, have a common acquaintance, and we behave like such.