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Vic
08-06-2002, 06:57 AM
Pity there is no "confused" smiley among the message icons, this subject certainly deserves one.

I am normally not a fan of opinion polls, but...
While most of the Jewish public in Israel now tends to describe itself as rightist in its world view on foreign and security affairs, the fact is that, to a considerable extent, the majority supports the left's stand regarding conditions for peace with the Palestinians, including the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, the evacuation of settlements in the territories - except for the large blocs - and a return to the 1967 borders, with border modifications aimed at keeping these blocs within Israeli territory.

[...]

As for Israel's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinian civilian population a majority of 59% feels that in light of the many reports on the difficult living conditions of this population in the territories, and concurrent with the war on terror, Israel must take practical measures to ease the suffering of this population (only 38% are opposed, while the remainder have no clear opinion on the issue.) A majority for this preference is found in all the political camps, albeit a smaller number on the right - 53% - compared with 59.5% in the center and 75% on the left.

But a reverse picture appears when the war on terror is concerned - there is considerable support, even among self-declared leftists, for an uncompromising policy usually identified with the right. As a result, we found a majority of 62% of the overall population who believe that despite the large number of innocent casualties involved in the targeted liquidation of Shehadeh, Israel should not abstain from similar liquidations in the future, even if the civilian population may be harmed (33% believe that no liquidations should be carried out under such circumstances, while only 4% believe that targeted liquidations should be avoided altogether.) A segmentation of replies according to self-declared leftists/rightist indicates that 71% of rightists support the liquidations, even when they could harm civilians, as do 61% of centrists and 43% of leftists.

These findings point to a drift to the right that has recently received considerable attention, and is reflected in this poll by the fact that the number of self-declared rightists is twice as large as that of self-declared leftists, mainly when it comes to security, but not necessarily on matters of policy.

[...]Majority in favor of left's stand on peace, targeted liquidations
By Prof. Ephraim Ya'ar and Dr. Tamar Hermann
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=194530&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=194530

Where did we last discuss dichotomies, definitions, etc.? ;)

NewsGuy
08-06-2002, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Vic
...the fact is that, to a considerable extent, the majority supports the left's stand regarding conditions for peace with the Palestinians, including the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, the evacuation of settlements in the territories - except for the large blocs - and a return to the 1967 borders, with border modifications aimed at keeping these blocs within Israeli territory.

Pretty funny statement, considering that these conditions for peace are the exact policy of Ariel Sharon's government -- not at all that of the Leftists.

On the other hand, the Leftist position is to forcibly transfer 1/4 million Jews out of large parts of the Jewish homeland and return to the 1967 suicide border with no modifications.


Where did we last discuss dichotomies, definitions, etc.? ;)

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=7443#post7443

sharonbn
08-06-2002, 12:34 PM
Ariel Sharon's plan include return of 45% of occupied territory. That's a pretty big bloc. This a ridiculous plan exposes the fact the Sharon's government has no real long term solution to the conflict.
To tell you the truth, I don't even think Sharon himself is interested in devising a long term solution. He believes (and rightfully so) that a permanent agreement will not be signed in the next decade, "so that's one less worry to ponder in my term". He concentrates on immediate relief of the violence.

Ehud Barak's proposal of 91% and another 1% of green-line Israel is much more inline with the definition of "return to the 1967 borders, with border modifications". I also believe these numbers or their vicinity will be the ones signed upon in the final agreement.

And about force transfer of the settlers, given their disgracefull behaviour towards Palestinian civillians AND IDF SOLDIERS (yes yes Jewish Israeli soldiers who risk their lives defending the settlers), as was shown in a news Item on Channel 2 last weekend - I think that this is a just solution to these imperialistic unthoughtfull unJewish barbaraians.

Vic
08-06-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by NewsGuy
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=7443#post7443 Thanks, NewsGuy :) :) :)
My memory, grrr...


*clicks on the link*

no, this was not the one I thought of

*performs some memory-reviving exercises*

here it is: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1060

------------------------------------------------------------

Another question: does the rift between "Left" and "Right" in Israel run deeper than elsewhere?

This: http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/leftists.html , for example seems quite unique to me. I am used to define such views as purely political positions, whether I like them or not, but I would be careful about claims regarding the personality or even psychical anomalities of their adherents. Discussions on such issues can be quite heated in other countries too (a typical pattern: leftists are traitors, rightists are fascists), but interpretations like the one I link to above would be unusual in political discourse.

sharonbn
08-06-2002, 12:51 PM
As I stated before, I believe the real difference between Leftists and Rightists in Israel is not about percentage of land or border maps or even economics - the difference is in the means in which the two groups go about expressing their views and realizing their goals.

The Rightists believe violence, physical and rethorical is a legitimate means of achieving political, economical and other ideological goals. All Jewish underground movements originated in the extreme right. All political murderers originated in the extreme right. All political rallies that ended in violent riots are ones of the right wing. When rightist protestors take to the street it usually takes form of a violent destructive street marsh, destroying Arab propertry, torching cars, beating Arab-looking bystanders etc.

The Leftists believe that violence will always backfire and is never a solution but part of the problem. It is common to see in Israel small groups of Leftist protestors standing on the side of the road, holding signs in slience or singing or chanting sloagans. They usually get a welcome treatment from the drivers and street walkers - shouting insults, spitting, tearing the signs and beating.

Such an overwhelming difference cannot be attributed to "a few bad apples". Saying so is buring your head in the sand. The difference in approach, in expression and in deed is just too great.

NewsGuy
08-06-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by sharonbn
Ariel Sharon's plan include return of 45% of occupied territory. That's a pretty big bloc. This a ridiculous plan exposes the fact the Sharon's government has no real long term solution to the conflict.

I don't agree with that at all.

1. the only real solution for peace needs to start with destroying the Palestinians ability to use terrorism and destroy the rest of the Palestinian Terrorist Authority. Until that happens, Barak's 91 or 97% prize for terrorism will make no difference. So far, Sharon's plan to fight terrorism is the only peace plan possible. It may take longer, but remember that Barak's overly generous offer only resulted in a war of terrorism against Israel.

2. Sharon was elected by a landslide because most Israeli believed that his peace plan of offering only half as much as Barak was more realistic.

3. You can say the Barak is a Leftist, but he is at the right-wing of the Leftist camp. How about people like Yusouf al Sarid or Uri Abu-neri? These are the fathers of the Leftist movement who are salivating to forcefully march 1/4 million Jews off their land, and hand out military positions to Arafat overlooking Tel Aviv -- perfect for Kassam target practice. That's the Leftist vision for "peace" as I understand it.


And about force transfer of the settlers, given their disgracefull behaviour towards Palestinian civillians AND IDF SOLDIERS (yes yes Jewish Israeli soldiers who risk their lives defending the settlers)

Well, let's think of little 10-month old Shalhevet Pas, the Jewish infant who was shot in the head by an Arab sniper while being held in her father's arms inside their Hebron home. Let's take a look at the Israeli families who had Palestinian murderers enter their homes at night and machine-gun little girls sleeping in their beds. Or the father who comes home to find that a Palestinian broke into his house, murdered the mother and 3 of his children and then burned down the house.

How would you expect the "settlers" to act towards their enemies? Prepare some chocolates and flowers and sit down to a yummy home-made sulcha dinner with the Islamic Jihad troops?

As for the treatment of the IDF, as you know in 99% of the cases there are good relations and gratitude. But you also know that under Leftist pressure, the suburban Jews are prevented from firing back at the Arab side when the Jewish families are being shot at and missiles fired into their suburbs. That causes some friction of course.