Peace plan step one: Give the Palestinians their land back.

[Shotgun Styles]

Step two, ban all racialist Israeli policies.

Step three, draft a constitution based on equal rights for all people.

Step four, tear down the wall.

Step five, rebuild the Palestinian areas while building homes for the new Palestinian immigrants to Israel.

Step six, get a new flag.

[friendofisrael]

step 1- its not their land. Genesis 22.

step 2- Israel is the Jewish homeland- policies you may deem racialist are there to protect the only place in the world where jews aren't persecuted.

step 3- there are equal rights for all Israelis. Take a look at the equal rights of Israel's neighbours.

step 4- and make it easier for terrorists to murder people in cafes and bus stops? Build more, bigger walls if necessary!

step 5- Palestinian areas tend to get demolished when hamas and friends lean out of windows and fire rockets!

step 6- What would you suggest, replace the star of David with an explosive belt?

[Shotgun Styles]

step 1- its not their land. Genesis 22.


Ah, the heart of the matter. Should I name some historical figures who used the Bible to justify their prejudice?

[dayag]

Step two, ban all racialist Israeli policies.

Step three, draft a constitution based on equal rights for all people.

Step four, tear down the wall.

Step five, rebuild the Palestinian areas while building homes for the new Palestinian immigrants to Israel.

Step six, get a new flag.

"racialist"? I'd rather be an Arab in Israel than a Jew in any Arab state you care to mention. In fact, I'd rather be an Arab in Israel than in many of the Arab states.

Why should we allow the Palestinians back? They tried to drive us into the sea. That so-called right of the return is based on a non-binding resolution of the UN General Assembly. It isn't ever going to happen. Lying to the fourth-generation "refugees" is only delaying their eventual resettlement elsewhere.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our flag. Israel is the Jewish state, so our flag has a Jewish symbol. We're not changing HaTikva either.

Basically you are asking us to surrender and trust the Palestinians to treat us fairly in a Palestinian state. You are an enemy of the Jewish people.

[Shotgun Styles]

This is a recipe for the destruction of the Jewish state. No thanks, why don't you peddle this nonsense at the U.N., they would love it.

An apartheid state is doomed by it's creation. I propose a Mid East state for all Mid East peoples. Not a "Jews are superior" state. Jewish supremacy is no better than white supremacy or Arab supremacy. Evil is evil, regardless of how oppressed the perpetrators of evil are. Bombing buses is no less evil because of the injustices committed against the Palestinian people. That goes both ways.

[dayag]

An apartheid state is doomed by it's creation. I propose a Mid East state for all Mid East peoples. Not a "Jews are superior" state. Jewish supremacy is no better than white supremacy or Arab supremacy. Evil is evil, regardless of how oppressed the perpetrators of evil are. Bombing buses is no less evil because of the injustices committed against the Palestinian people. That goes both ways.

Is Italy an "Italians are superior" state because it is the homeland of the Italian people? Israel is our homeland. We are 80% of the population. The fact that it is the Jewish state is not racism.

Israel isn't an apartheid state. You've been reading too much Jimmy Carter. As I said before, we treat the Arabs much better than minorities are treated anywhere in the Middle East.

You are demanding that Jews give up our self determination. That is NEVER going to happen. You are wasting your time even proposing it.

Any attacks aimed at non-combatants is evil.

Why don't you try coming up with something that is realistic?

[Reffo]

Peace plan step one: Give the Palestinians their land back.That's a very open ended statement. Which land? In 1948, the Arabs claimed that ALL the land, including Israel, is Arab land. In 2007 many Arabs still claim this and Hamas says so openly. Do you agree with them?

[Mediocrates]

I would say they will wind up with all of Gaza, 90% of the West Bank and part of East Jerusalem. It's already been offered and rejected. Anything more than that is silly and what you're really proposing is genocidal nonsense no matter who loud you shout it. If that's all you have take your one liners back to redgreenblackwhitecarbomb.org with you. Thanks.

[ChicagoBlues]

An apartheid state is doomed by it's creation. I propose a Mid East state for all Mid East peoples. Not a "Jews are superior" state. Jewish supremacy is no better than white supremacy or Arab supremacy. Evil is evil, regardless of how oppressed the perpetrators of evil are. Bombing buses is no less evil because of the injustices committed against the Palestinian people. That goes both ways.

Jews living in Israel-JEWISH STATE BY DEFINITION-have been called "racists". Jews living in other countries have been accused of being unloyal,etc. Jewish supremacy, Jewish conspiracy. You guys are boring, at best.

[mikeber]

Shotgun Styles:although I live in the US, I am not fan of shotguns, or loose cannons of any sort.
I don't know where you are from and what's the point of your post. Out of the blue "You (Israelis) should do such and such" - what's the relevancy? You wrote that in regard to what? And basically who are YOU to tell other people what to do? Its a matter of basic manners - you cannot burst in someones place and command them (in steps) what to do... if you want to be taken seriously.

[Shotgun Styles]

Is Italy an "Italians are superior" state because it is the homeland of the Italian people?

Find me the historical evidence of a large population that was expelled from Italy and refused return based on their race. Then, you will have a discussion. Right now you are comparing apples to oranges.

[Reffo]

Peace plan step one: Give the Palestinians their land back.

Step two, ban all racialist Israeli policies.

Step three, draft a constitution based on equal rights for all people.

Step four, tear down the wall.

Step five, rebuild the Palestinian areas while building homes for the new Palestinian immigrants to Israel.

Step six, get a new flag.
That's a very open ended statement. Which land? In 1948, the Arabs claimed that ALL the land, including Israel, is Arab land. In 2007 many Arabs still claim this and Hamas says so openly. Do you agree with them?...Just as I expected.... He did say that his Location is the 38th Parallel? But he forgot to mention that he meant the parallel universe where they believe in "Flat earth" fantasies....

Now, here is reality for you Shotgun Styles: In this universe, things are done differently. In this universe, when a people, the Palestinian Arabs, perpetrate aggression against another people, the Jews, for 100 years, then the aggressors should expect adverse consequences to themselves.

Moreover, unlike in your parallel universe, Shotgun Styles, in this universe, the aggressors (the Palestiniane Arabs) must clearly demonstrate that they have come to see reason before the aggrieved party (Israel) would be required to eliminate the adverse responses to the aggressors. And that means that this is what should happen:

Peace Plan step one: Renounce violence and terrorism and really curb it (not just pretend).

Step two: Abide all by agreements, past, present and future.

Step three: Accept the sovereignity of Israel and the right of self determination of the Jewish nation.

Step four: Negotiate in good faith and give up unreasonable demands like their so called right of return which is just another sneaky way to try and deny self determination for the Jewish people.

[Shotgun Styles]

...Just as I expected.... He did say that his Location is the 38th Parallel? But he forgot to mention that he meant the parallel universe where they believe in "Flat earth" fantasies....

Actually I should update the profile. My tour at the DMZ is over and I have rotated back stateside. Thanks for your concern.


Now, here is reality for you Shotgun Styles: In this universe, things are done differently. In this universe, when a people, the Palestinian Arabs, perpetrate aggression against another people, the Jews, for 100 years, then the aggressors should expect adverse consequences to themselves.

Hold on, there hoss. The Zionists kicked the Arabs out. That was not just wrong, it was evil. No one, not Jew, Gentile, Black, White or green deserves to have their land, homes, lives and livelihoods taken from them. You would have thought the Jewish people would have learned how foolish all this racialism is already. Give them their land back, and you'd be surprised how thankful they would be. Evil begets evil.


Moreover, unlike in your parallel universe, Shotgun Styles, in this universe, the aggressors (the Palestiniane Arabs) must clearly demonstrate that they have come to see reason before the aggrieved party (Israel) would be required to eliminate the adverse responses to the aggressors. And that means that this is what should happen:

So you're saying that the Native Americans were the aggressors because they had the audacity to be on white land before the whites got here? Because that's the argument you're making. The Zionists have always been the aggressors, and were the only ones with the ability to create a whole state for all peoples. They chose segregation over peace. That makes them the aggressors. You want the Palestinians to be more friendly, give back what was stolen from them.


Peace Plan step one: Renounce violence and terrorism and really curb it (not just pretend).

Step two: Abide all by agreements, past, present and future.

Step three: Accept the sovereignity of Israel and the right of self determination of the Jewish nation.

Step four: Negotiate in good faith and give up unreasonable demands like their so called right of return which is just another sneaky way to try and deny self determination for the Jewish people.

War is war. Israelis have killed far more civilians than the Palestinians. That is a statistical fact, not denied by the Israeli government. Again, you want peace, integration is the only thing that will save the Israeli people.

[KettleWhistle]

Again, you want peace, integration is the only thing that will save the Israeli people.

No, "we" don't want any integration. We want our independence and freedom in our homeland, first and foremost. What will save us, is for people like you, and various Arabs and their other supporters leaving us alone in our country. Then peace will come, eventually.

[mikeber]

The Zionists kicked the Arabs out. That was not just wrong, it was evil.
The Arabs tried to kick the "Zionists" out. That was not just wrong, it was evil. However, as a outcome of the war they initiated, some Palestinians (some remained) ended up been kicked out...

Here is the partition plan that was TOTALLY REJECTED by the Arabs:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/partition_plan.html
Since they rejected it, what's there to give back?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1948_arab_israeli_war_-_May15-June10.jpg

As always, these fateful events are omitted by propagandists in their relentless attacks against Israel.

[Reffo]

Hold on, there hoss. The Zionists kicked the Arabs out. That was not just wrong, it was evil. No one, not Jew, Gentile, Black, White or green deserves to have their land, homes, lives and livelihoods taken from them. You would have thought the Jewish people would have learned how foolish all this racialism is already. Give them their land back, and you'd be surprised how thankful they would be. Evil begets evil.Your parallel universe education again? Now here is reality:

The Palestinian Arabs together with their allies, the neighbouring Arab states, were the ones who attacked the Jews in 1948. Why? Because they didn't recognize the right of the Palestinian Jewish people to have self determination and their own state. The Jews on the other hand DID recognize the rights of the Palestinian Arabs to have a state side by side with the Jewish state (Israel).

So, the consequence of that Arab aggression in 1948 was that the Joranians ended up occupying the West Bank, the Egyptians occupied Gaza the Jews ended up with Israel and the Palestinian Arab state wasn't created.

And you know the funny thing? The funny thing was that the Palestinian Arabs at that time, between 1948 and 1967 didn't even insist that Egypt and Jordan should give them their independent state in the WB and Gaza. They just continued their terrorism and threats against the Jewish state!

So you're saying that the Native Americans were the aggressors because they had the audacity to be on white land before the whites got here? Because that's the argument you're making. The Zionists have always been the aggressors, and were the only ones with the ability to create a whole state for all peoples. They chose segregation over peace. That makes them the aggressors. You want the Palestinians to be more friendly, give back what was stolen from them.More parallel universe stuff ... Don't you know that the Jewish people are the natives of the holy land? Why? Because some Jews lived there continuously for thousands of years, even longer than the Arabs. And the other Jews who returned, were clearly the descendants of exiles who used to live in the holy land .. it's a historical fact, read up on it!

Having said that, the Jews did accept the rights of the Arabs, who lived there for hundreds of years, to form their own independent Palestinian Arab state. Pity the Arabs didn't reciprocate and preferred to commit aggression against the Jewish Palestinians ...

War is war. Israelis have killed far more civilians than the Palestinians. That is a statistical fact, not denied by the Israeli government. Again, you want peace, integration is the only thing that will save the Israeli people.Aggression is aggression and once one embarks on it, as the Palestinian Arabs did, they cannot expect to be spared the consequences. Yes, war is war and it's unpredictable.... and in this case, it meant that the aggressors (the Arabs) got the short end of the stick.

Now don't get me wrong, most Jews don't rejoice in the suffering of even their enemies. Most Jews would prefer peace but if the only thing on offer from the Arabs and their allies (people like you) is a suicide plan for Jews, then the Jews opt for self preservation, even if it means suffering for the Palestinian Arabs.

[mikeber]

We should get used to that. Once in a while, an Arab on a mission, comes to this forum, makes a stink then goes away never to be seen again. They don't identify themselves, where they are from or what their background is. Parallel 38 :) ... common, give us a break...
What's interesting is the story they spread around. It goes like that:
After WW2, the evil Zionists came to Palestine, with the intention to steal the Arab lands. And indeed, while the noble Palestinians were looking the other side - bingo, the Jews stole their lands. Then, just because Jews are evil, they also started killing the good Arabs. By nature, Palestinians are very peaceful people. They don't like violence and bloodshed and therefore cannot fight the evil Jews. Now, if Jews want peace, they should return the stolen lands and then we'll have a happy ending...

That's the kind of c**p that's spread around and its incredible how many truly believe this .

[Reffo]

mikeber

Yep, they have learnt the Goebbels technique which is: If one repeats a lie often enough and loud enough then eventually that lie will be believed (unless challenged) by even good people who are much too busy with their own lives to check the veracity of stories about far away wars.

That's why it's encumbent on us, those of us who know and care, to challenge the flat earther's lies at every opportunity.... even if we too have to repeat ourselves at infinitum... Otherwise, the Arabs and their parallel universe allies will win the war of ideas!

[Shotgun Styles]

The Palestinian Arabs together with their allies, the neighbouring Arab states, were the ones who attacked the Jews in 1948. Why? Because they didn't recognize the right of the Palestinian Jewish people to have self determination and their own state. The Jews on the other hand DID recognize the rights of the Palestinian Arabs to have a state side by side with the Jewish state (Israel).


Um, no. Arabs who lived on the land that the Zionists intended to annex for their Jewish Apartheid state were understandably unwilling to give up their homes. Much as the Jews weren't so happy when they were run out of Germany. The Arabs did not go quietly into the night like 6 million German and Polish Jews did. They fought, just as they should, for their homes. I would have too.


So, the consequence of that Arab aggression in 1948 was that the Joranians ended up occupying the West Bank, the Egyptians occupied Gaza the Jews ended up with Israel and the Palestinian Arab state wasn't created.

"Arab aggression"? Creating a race based apartheid state, on Arab land, with the intention of displacing said Arab people is indeed an act of aggression. See here it is, and there is no way around it, the Jewish people could have simply started a country for ALL PEOPLE. They did not. They chose racial purity and segregation over peace. That's their bad, and they are paying the cost to this day. America is a country for all people. That is why everyone wants to live here. You guys should try it. Integration is fun.


And you know the funny thing? The funny thing was that the Palestinian Arabs at that time, between 1948 and 1967 didn't even insist that Egypt and Jordan should give them their independent state in the WB and Gaza. They just continued their terrorism and threats against the Jewish state!

No, they didn't want to give up thier homes to your "Jewish state". And here's the thing, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE EITHER. If you have a sack, with actual balls in it, you would not have given up your home for someone else's racial homeland either. You would fight for your home. The Arabs did exactly that. As they should have.


More parallel universe stuff ... Don't you know that the Jewish people are the natives of the holy land? Why? Because some Jews lived there continuously for thousands of years, even longer than the Arabs. And the other Jews who returned, were clearly the descendants of exiles who used to live in the holy land .. it's a historical fact, read up on it!

Having said that, the Jews did accept the rights of the Arabs, who lived there for hundreds of years, to form their own independent Palestinian Arab state. Pity the Arabs didn't reciprocate and preferred to commit aggression against the Jewish Palestinians ...

I don't care about which one of you lays claim to the land. You need to learn to live together like grownups. All of this "my land, my race, my God" makes you sound like children fighting over a toy. Grow up and find a way to live together. Why does anyone need a "Jewish" state or an "Arab" state. As an American that idea went out with the Klan and bell bottoms. Let the Arabs have their land back, and build one nation under God. We did it, so don't tell me it can't be done.

And the Zionists have never accepted the right of the Arabs to live in Israel. That's why they kicked all but a few out. Until that wrong is righted, Israel will be in a constant state of war. That is, until the Israeli Arabs reach critical mass and vote the Zionists out of power. Then you're just screwed.


Aggression is aggression and once one embarks on it, as the Palestinian Arabs did, they cannot expect to be spared the consequences. Yes, war is war and it's unpredictable.... and in this case, it meant that the aggressors (the Arabs) got the short end of the stick.

Now don't get me wrong, most Jews don't rejoice in the suffering of even their enemies. Most Jews would prefer peace but if the only thing on offer from the Arabs and their allies (people like you) is a suicide plan for Jews, then the Jews opt for self preservation, even if it means suffering for the Palestinian Arabs.

Segregation is a suicide plan. When the Arabs who are already in Israel become the majority (and that is a statistical certainty), the Jews will again be homeless. Why not work these problems out now so that when it does happen there is no hostility between the people? Just give them their land back and create one country for everyone. Why is racial purity so important anyway? Marry and breed with Arabs and in 3 or 4 generations you'll all be the same.

We should get used to that. Once in a while, an Arab on a mission, comes to this forum, makes a stink then goes away never to be seen again. They don't identify themselves, where they are from or what their background is. Parallel 38 :) ... common, give us a break...
What's interesting is the story they spread around.

Oh so you know me now. And I'm an Arab. Great. So anyone who disagrees with you is an Arab and a liar. Gotcha. And you wonder why Zionists get labeled as racists...

[Reffo]

Um, no. Arabs who lived on the land that the Zionists intended to annex for their Jewish Apartheid state were understandably unwilling to give up their homes. Much as the Jews weren't so happy when they were run out of Germany. The Arabs did not go quietly into the night like 6 million German and Polish Jews did. They fought, just as they should, for their homes. I would have too.Um, no. As I said, two states were to be formed, a Jewish one and an Arab one. The Jews accepted this but the Arabs didn't and instead, they wanted to unlawfully annex, using aggression, the Jewish state. I say unlawfully firstly because the Jewish Palestinians had just as much right to part of the land as the Arab Palestinians did. And secondly, because the UN General Assembly voted for the two state solution.

"Arab aggression"? Creating a race based apartheid state, on Arab land, with the intention of displacing said Arab people is indeed an act of aggression. See here it is, and there is no way around it, the Jewish people could have simply started a country for ALL PEOPLE. They did not. They chose racial purity and segregation over peace. That's their bad, and they are paying the cost to this day. America is a country for all people. That is why everyone wants to live here. You guys should try it. Integration is fun.Booooooring ...... You are just shooting your mouth off and sloganeering! No, it was no more race based than the 22 Arab countries which have majority Arabs (in fact Israel is less racist than countries such as Saudi Arabia). Only this one would have had and does have majority Jews. And yes, it has Arab citizens too who have full voting rights and who are represented in the israeli parliament by elected representatives who are Arabs.

And you know the funny thing? The funny thing was that the Palestinian Arabs at that time, between 1948 and 1967 didn't even insist that Egypt and Jordan should give them their independent state in the WB and Gaza. They just continued their terrorism and threats against the Jewish state!
No, they didn't want to give up thier homes to your "Jewish state". And here's the thing, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE EITHER. If you have a sack, with actual balls in it, you would not have given up your home for someone else's racial homeland either. You would fight for your home. The Arabs did exactly that. As they should have.Do yourself a favour and at least read what I said. My question was:

How come your Palestinian Arabs didn't demand an independent Palestine on the West Bank and Gaza, between 1948 and 1967, when those territories were controlled by Jordan and Egypt respectively????

I don't care about which one of you lays claim to the land. You need to learn to live together like grownups. All of this "my land, my race, my God" makes you sound like children fighting over a toy. Grow up and find a way to live together. Why does anyone need a "Jewish" state or an "Arab" state. As an American that idea went out with the Klan and bell bottoms. Let the Arabs have their land back, and build one nation under God. We did it, so don't tell me it can't be done.I don't care about what you don't care because you don't live in the REAL WORLD!

For your information, the real world has several hundred sovereign independent nations. And nowhere in the rulebook is there a requirement to force separate nations to form single multinational states against their wills especially if such a multinational state would perpetrate the continued oppression of the minorities. There was nothing unjust in the idea of forming two independent states living peacefully side by side. One with a Jewish majority and the other with an Arab majority.

And the Zionists have never accepted the right of the Arabs to live in Israel. That's why they kicked all but a few out. Until that wrong is righted, Israel will be in a constant state of war. That is, until the Israeli Arabs reach critical mass and vote the Zionists out of power. Then you're just screwed. Get real!!! There are over 1 million Arab citizens in Israel (20% of the population). Most of the other arabs fled because of the war that the Palestinian Arabs started against the Palestinian Jews. Even so, they could have lived in their own independent Palestinian Arab state peacefully, side by side with Israel had their Arab brothers not usurped the WB and Gaza, between 1948 and 1967.

Moreover, at least as many Jews became refugees from Arab countries during and after the 1948 war. Most of those Jews were resettled in Israel so in effect, there was a massive population exchange. It certainly wasn't the black and white villains versus goodies that you are trying to depict. It was war and as in all wars, atrocities were perpetrated by both sides, unfortunately. But the key thing is that it was the choice of the Arabs to have the war, the Jews certainly would have preferred to settle things peacefully and equitably!

Segregation is a suicide plan. When the Arabs who are already in Israel become the majority (and that is a statistical certainty), the Jews will again be homeless. Why not work these problems out now so that when it does happen there is no hostility between the people? Just give them their land back and create one country for everyone. Why is racial purity so important anyway? Marry and breed with Arabs and in 3 or 4 generations you'll all be the same.Are you saying that Saudi Arabia is heading for suicide because the overwhelming majority of their population is Arab? Is Iran on a suicide march because the majority of their population are Iranians? Is syria? ...No? ... OK then, neither is Israel, just because the majority of their population is Jewish.

On the other hand, places like Rwanda, the Balkans, Sudan and even Lebanon prove that the collective health of minorities was in severe danger from the majorities who harboured murderous hate towards them. A bit like the hate that the arabs harbour towards Jews....

So, please don't fret for the Jews (as if) they will not become minorities in their own country anytime soon (about 80% of Israel is Jewish). The only way, they will become minorities is if they'll be foolish enough to listen to the likes of you, which is not bloody likely!

We should get used to that. Once in a while, an Arab on a mission, comes to this forum, makes a stink then goes away never to be seen again. They don't identify themselves, where they are from or what their background is. Parallel 38 ... common, give us a break...
What's interesting is the story they spread around.
Oh so you know me now. And I'm an Arab. Great. So anyone who disagrees with you is an Arab and a liar. Gotcha. And you wonder why Zionists get labeled as racists...He doesn't need to know you. He is commenting on the things you are saying and I'm afraid that you are just parroting classic Arab hate speech towards Jews. And believe me, he recognizes the distortions and the simplistic cartoonish views that you espouse for the Cr@p that it really is! It is absolutely obvious that you are either lying through your teeth or you have no clue whatsoever about what you are talking about!!! Just tell me, have you ever even visited Israel???? No? Then I rest my case...

[Shotgun Styles]

I'm afraid that you are just parroting classic Arab hate speech towards Jews. .

Ok. I started to get into a long response, then saw this. How is living together hate speech? Explain that one to me. I believe that people are people. I have spent my whole life defending the concept. You see races, skin color, religion. I see people.

You will be in this as long as you build walls to exclude people. Be they physical or psychological. Above you stated over and over how the Arabs need to "accept the Jewish state". That's bullcrap. I'm not giving up MY HOME for someone else's "homeland". That's what the UN and the Zionists demanded of the Arabs, and that's why you're at war. If the decision had been "we want a democracy, accept this constitution" and the Arabs started fighting, your point would be valid. That ain't what happened. The Zionist movement told the Arabs to GTFO. I would not have moved one inch if you came for my house. And if you laid a hand on my family, you would have seen violence.

Most of this conflict is based on both sides demonizing the other, and refusing to see each other as people. You don't honestly expect me to believe that you would give up your home (I mean your physical house) so that someone else can move in and demolish it. No. You would fight. So, you're a Palestinian. That which you hate most.

You can call me a hate monger all you want. But the shoe does not fit. One of us is calling for all people to be treated equally. The other is calling for special treatment for one group over the other. There is an American legal concept that helped us to overcome this thought process: "Separate is inherently unequal".

But that's just so much hate speech to you...

[nbarzelay]

Build walls to exclude people? You have the concept of the security barrier completely confused. Its to keep out the suicide bombers and mujahadeen, which has done its job. When the US faces this sort of attack on its soil, you'd be damn well certain that the US would build walls, as it does around its middle/upper class communities and the US-Mexican border.

Point to me where a country faced with slightly lower to equal threats hasn't reacted the same exact way. These countries don't exist.

This security barrier was built to protect Israeli citizens since peace negociations constantly broke down due to increased Palestinian suicide/shooting attacks and the constant maximalist demands which includes flooding Israel with the offspring of refugees.

As for 'demonizing the other side', there is no base for comparison between the two. I don't quite see the level of propaganda, support for terrorism/murder against Israelis and their collaborators, summer camps for future shahids and the support for the greatest goal of martyrdom as seen in Palestinian media, on the schooling level (PA, UN, and Saudi funded/sponsored) and on TV/radio, as in the Israeli media. Please point out to me where this exists. Very interested in where you get this utter rubbish from.

You're not really a hate mongerer, you're simply an Islamist apologist, terrorism supporter, and abject fabricator and propagandist.

[mikeber]

Shotgun, if you aren't Arab, why not introduce yourself instead the parallel 38 c**p...?
You were given some very good (and detailed) answers to your "suggestions". If you didn't understand them, then you have a problem indeed.
You also got facts wrong. As you were told already, Israel has over 1 million Arab citizens (20% of the populations). Some Israeli cities such as Haifa and Acco, have a very high number of Arab citizens. Not all Arabs fled in 1948 as you think.
BTW, did you try posting on Arab/ Muslim sites? Did you convince them that Israel has a right (any right) to exist - even as a "non-apartheid" state?

Now let me finish with an actual example: the big problem Iraq faces today (without getting into the argument if US invasion was justified or not) is that there are 3 ethnic groups that cannot coexist in the same land. Should the land been exclusively Suni or Shiia, Iraq might have had a chance to recover. The way they are currently interwoven is a recipe for disaster (with or without American presence). Sooner or later they will have to dismantle current Iraq and create separate spaces (segregation, apartheid...) for each ethnic group to reach a permanent settlement. I only bring this example to show you that people who have a long history of confrontation cannot live together as you insist they should.

[Reffo]

I'm afraid that you are just parroting classic Arab hate speech towards Jews. .
Ok. I started to get into a long response, then saw this. How is living together hate speech? Explain that one to me. I believe that people are people. I have spent my whole life defending the concept. You see races, skin color, religion. I see people.Well, that depends how you want to twist it.

For instance, when I tell you that Jews and Arabs already live together as full citizens of Israel, you and your Arab buddies are not happy because you don't accept the premise that Jews can and should form a majority, even if it's the only country in the world that has a Jewish majority.

On the other hand, they and you are perfectly happy with the idea that the Jews should be a minority amongst Muslims and Arabs. And I grant you, in principle there would be nothing wrong with that. I mean, as you say; people are people and we should be all brothers. But and here is the big but, Shotgun Styles, the Jews have been there and tried that before and it didn't work for them. The Jews have been minorities amongst other people, including Arabs and Muslims, for 2000 years and in that REAL WORLD (as opposed to your fictional utopia), the Jews have been oppressed, murdered and vilified on and off virtually throughout their whole period of the 2000 years of exile. That's why Israel was formed. It was formed as the only sanctuary in the world where Jews are a majority and where Jews can have self determination and dignity.

So you see Shotgun styles? That's why I call what you parrot as hate speech. It's hate speech because you seek to deny Jews their natural rights for self determination. A right which you and everyone else takes for granted with respect to all the other people on this earth!

[peaceful_arab]

Let me chime in this issue. I, for one think, israel does have a right to exist. i think when Jewish started to come into the lands in 1947, Arabs should have welcomed Jews, because, Jews like Arabs, are of the same blood. Both arabs and jews are semitic people. i think if arab states do recongize state of israel, the peace process would be sped up immensely. Can arabs and Jews live in peace? offcoruse they can, but the process begins with the people...

[nbarzelay]

Let me chime in this issue. I, for one think, israel does have a right to exist. i think when Jewish started to come into the lands in 1947, Arabs should have welcomed Jews, because, Jews like Arabs, are of the same blood. Both arabs and jews are semitic people. i think if arab states do recongize state of israel, the peace process would be sped up immensely. Can arabs and Jews live in peace? offcoruse they can, but the process begins with the people...

See, this is the first misconception. Jews didn't start arriving in 1947, but the first organized mass migration to Israel started back in the 1860's-1870's with what are termed as 'aliyot'. Prior to this, there has been a consistent population of Jews living in this region. In the 1860's, the entire population of this area, including Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was about 200,000, including Christians, Jews, and Arabs/Muslims. Throughout this period, up until today, Jews constituted a majority in the Jerusalem.

The picture you are inadequately portraying is as if the Arabs were the ones welcoming Jews to their home, which is a false conception and a concept which the international community has no clue about, thinking and portraying, as you are, that the Arabs/Muslims/'Palestinian Arabs' are indigenous to this area. This is simply not true. In the period of 1840's, 1850's, 1860's, what is termed as 'Palestine' had a negative net migration, which means people were moving away from this area. This all changed when Jews came from Eastern Europe, N. Africa, surrounding ME'ern regions, and W. Europe. Arabs were attracted to the new prospects, job opportunities, and investments into the region that were brought along with the Jews.

The problem is that, along with different regions, all of Israel is perceived as Muslim land taken over in the name of Islam at some point in history and along with the ME and N. Africa being majority Arab/Muslim, these surrounding regions cannot cope with the idea of having a non-Muslim majority/administered country in their midst. Simple. Only thing that has changed is the ideologies in the region, transitioning from Pan-Arabism to Islamism, nationalistic chauvinism to religious fanaticism.

[peaceful_arab]

See, this is the first misconception. Jews didn't start arriving in 1947, but the first organized mass migration to Israel started back in the 1860's-1870's with what are termed as 'aliyot'. Prior to this, there has been a consistent population of Jews living in this region. In the 1860's, the entire population of this area, including Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was about 200,000, including Christians, Jews, and Arabs/Muslims. Throughout this period, up until today, Jews constituted a majority in the Jerusalem.
I meant mass-migration. Jews have lived in the middle-east for thousands of years, no doubt about it.

The picture you are inadequately portraying is as if the Arabs were the ones welcoming Jews to their home, which is a false conception and a concept which the international community has no clue about, thinking and portraying, as you are, that the Arabs/Muslims/'Palestinian Arabs' are indigenous to this area.
Read carefully what I said, i said, I would have wished for it to happen(arabs welcoming Jews, not the native Jews of middle-east, but tthe one who came from europe etc)

The problem is that, along with different regions, all of Israel is perceived as Muslim land taken over in the name of Islam at some point in history and along with the ME and N. Africa being majority Arab/Muslim, these surrounding regions cannot cope with the idea of having a non-Muslim majority/administered country in their midst. Simple. Only thing that has changed is the ideologies in the region, transitioning from Pan-Arabism to Islamism, nationalistic chauvinism to religious fanaticism.
Well, im a Catholic, and i guess tyou are right to an extent. But you ahve to remember, alot of Arab states have sizable Arab Christian populations, who have lived in relative peace, and still continue to do so(minus states in turmoil liek Iraq etc). What is needed is to educate the people about Judaism, i think that can help alot...

[nbarzelay]

Read carefully what I said, i said, I would have wished for it to happen(arabs welcoming Jews, not the native Jews of middle-east, but tthe one who came from europe etc)

Yeah, that's one of the problems. But it doesn't make much sense that an Arab immigrant doesn't welcome a Jewish immigrant.


Well, im a Catholic, and i guess tyou are right to an extent. But you ahve to remember, alot of Arab states have sizable Arab Christian populations, who have lived in relative peace, and still continue to do so(minus states in turmoil liek Iraq etc). What is needed is to educate the people about Judaism, i think that can help alot...
Well, you should know the current state of events for Christians in the West Bank who have been fleeing their homes of hundreds to thousands of years due to the spread of Islamism. Much the case as in Lebanon but the extent to which is not the same by any measure in the West Bank. Bethlehem and Nazareth used to be majority Christian, now they are minorities due to oppression and pogroms. The media, however, present this migration of Arab Christians due to a drop of tourism. The media seems to forget that there wasn't much tourism during the times of the Ottoman empire, but these Arab Christians still remained.

Lastly, living in 'relative peace' under a 'dhimmih' status doesn't really amount to much. Islamic countries might see this as fair, but this is by no means equality and freedoms seen in Western countries. Come to Israel and you'll see the difference right when you cross the border.

Even Sudanese Muslims live better lives in Israel.......strange eh?

[peaceful_arab]

Well, you should know the current state of events for Christians in the West Bank who have been fleeing their homes of hundreds to thousands of years due to the spread of Islamism. Much the case as in Lebanon but the extent to which is not the same by any measure in the West Bank. Bethlehem and Nazareth used to be majority Christian, now they are minorities due to oppression and pogroms. The media, however, present this migration of Arab Christians due to a drop of tourism. The media seems to forget that there wasn't much tourism during the times of the Ottoman empire, but these Arab Christians still remained.
Right. Some extremist groups in the middle-east are trying to opress Arabs who follow faiths other then Islam in middle-east, which is absolutely wrong. hamas for example did this when the zaptured Gaza strip. they burnt down churches, I mean, WTF are they thinking?

Even Sudanese Muslims live better lives in Israel.......strange eh?
i think if Arabs has weclopmed jews into the middle-east in the first place, we wouldnt have seen alot of problems we have today. i have said before many times, we have same blood, arabs should have welcomed Jew's. i think tahts why Israel exists, and will continue to exist.

[Reffo]

i think if Arabs has weclopmed jews into the middle-east in the first place, we wouldnt have seen alot of problems we have today. i have said before many times, we have same blood, arabs should have welcomed Jew's. i think tahts why Israel exists, and will continue to exist.You seem to be a decent person and of course you are right but unfortunately what has happened has happened and unfortunately what is happening is happening, only the future can be changed. In the meanwhile, all the Israelis can do is take heed of the past and react accordingly and the Arab people too should re-examine history realistically and learn from it but to date, the impression that I am getting is that most Arabs have not heeded the past and old myths and hatreds are being reinforced and perpetrated.

Both people need to make an effort to reverse this process, Jews too but the greater onus is on the Arab people to do so, since they were the ones who started the enmity. Of course, Jews too must respond to real and sincere attempts by Arabs. But it won't be easy because not everyone has his/her heart in the right place like you seem to, peaceful_arab, nor is it always easy to restore trust that has been destryed, especially when it took millenia of ill treatment (of the Jewish minorities, on and off, including in the Arab world).

[nbarzelay]

Right. Some extremist groups in the middle-east are trying to opress Arabs who follow faiths other then Islam in middle-east, which is absolutely wrong. hamas for example did this when the zaptured Gaza strip. they burnt down churches, I mean, WTF are they thinking?

Just out of curiosity. Do you think that Israel in 1947-1948 should've annexed Bethlehem and Nazareth and absorbed the predominantly Arab Christian population into Israel? Or do you think the PA should be controlling these towns?

[peaceful_arab]

agreed, reffo!.

nbarzelay, I know Arab Christians are usually more open to the idea of accepting Israel, but I also know some Arab Chrsitians are also nationalist. So I cant really comment on that, you will have to perhaps ask a palestinian chrsitian for an opinon on that? Ofcourse, I would never want to see someone liek Hamas controlling these area's, ever...

[nbarzelay]

nbarzelay, I know Arab Christians are usually more open to the idea of accepting Israel, but I also know some Arab Chrsitians are also nationalist. So I cant really comment on that, you will have to perhaps ask a palestinian chrsitian for an opinon on that? Ofcourse, I would never want to see someone liek Hamas controlling these area's, ever...

I understand where you are coming from. The unfortunate state of the world, especially in the Islamic world, is that nationalistic pride doesn't pay out as much or have as deep pockets as the Islamist fanatics/organizations have.

Pan-Arabism has been trumped by Islamism quite a while ago. If it was the natural course of events is the big question. I'm hoping this religious fervor and mindlessness will subside and order will be restored, or actually, first fully establish itself where us 'kaffirs' will be considered on equal footing as muslims within Islamic countries.

There will be some big tests coming up within the next 10 years...

[bararallu]

It's also true that most Christians in the Middle East don't consider themselves Arabs ethnically (perhaps a little culturally).. only really the few converts and the Greek Orthodox, that is to say, mostly Palestinians and Syrians... while Copts, Assyrians, Maronites, being the biggest other communities will not mostly say they are Arabs,and few have participated in the various Arab nationalist projects. None in the Islamist projects.

[peaceful_arab]

It's also true that most Christians in the Middle East don't consider themselves Arabs ethnically (perhaps a little culturally).. only really the few converts and the Greek Orthodox, that is to say, mostly Palestinians and Syrians... while Copts, Assyrians, Maronites, being the biggest other communities will not mostly say they are Arabs,and few have participated in the various Arab nationalist projects. None in the Islamist projects.
Right. This phenemenon mostly occurs in western part of the middle-east. But alot of Chrisitians in the eastern part of middle-east are ethnic arab Christians Alot of the early Christians were arabs, for example, the ghassanids, and the nabataeans were ethicnically arabs. there were also many other tribes, who had large amount of Arab Christians. At one time there were alot more ethnic Arab Christians then there are now.
We all have to remember how vast the middle-eastern lands are. In olden times(and still to soem extenet, today), you could have people from the same tribe, but who followed different religions, but throughout times there have been some rulers, how did not like diversity, and wanted everyone to follow just one religion(usually the one they followed). This caused wars among brothers amongst brothers.

For example, there used to be at one time a huge presence of Christians in the arabian peninusla, but there are not so many left now. Many rulers forced them out of their areas( there was even an Jewish convert king of Yemen who forced the christians out of the city Najran in the arab peninsula). there have been waves of many rulers who did not liek diversity and tried to eleiminate it. but again there have been some rulers who appreciated diversity, and coincedeintally, it was under the rule of the peoeple who apreciated harmoyn amongst middle-eastenr peopel regardless of ethnciity, that they had the most times of prosper.

Pan-Arabism has been trumped by Islamism quite a while ago. If it was the natural course of events is the big question. I'm hoping this religious fervor and mindlessness will subside and order will be restored, or actually, first fully establish itself where us 'kaffirs' will be considered on equal footing as muslims within Islamic countries.

There will be some big tests coming up within the next 10 years..
I agree, i dearly hope one day, when all residents and peopel of Middle East can live peacefulyl among each others. their have been times when all peopel of semitic origin in middle-east, regadless of there religion have lived peacefulyl among each others. I hope, one of those times comes once again.....

[bararallu]

Right. This phenemenon mostly occurs in western part of the middle-east. But alot of Chrisitians in the eastern part of middle-east are ethnic arab Christians Alot of the early Christians were arabs, for example, the ghassanids, and the nabataeans were ethicnically arabs.

Oh, I know about them all, especially the Nebateans, who were not Christian BTW for the majority of their existence (rather a synchronism of Arabic/Egyptian religion & Hellenism).


This caused wars among brothers amongst brothers.

This unfortunately is not a foreign concept to any Jew, or generally any Semite. How many wars have we waged on ourselves? Our history is filthy with internecine.

For example, there used to be at one time a huge presence of Christians in the arabian peninusla, but there are not so many left now. Many rulers forced them out of their areas( there was even an Jewish convert king of Yemen who forced the christians out of the city Najran in the arab peninsula).

This is a very complicated situation that you've condensed, into a Christian narrative ;). First Yemenites at the time... didn't even speak Arabic as we know it. They were their own ethnic group (like Jews), who were related to Arabs but not quite Arabs, todays propaganda not withstanding. Further, Dhu Nuwas (the convert you refer to) was actually at war with Aksum, aka the old Christian kingdom of Ethiopia. The later was supported by Byzantium and prosecuted it's Jews to no end. So it was a horrible tit for tat.

there have been waves of many rulers who did not liek diversity and tried to eleiminate it. but again there have been some rulers who appreciated diversity, and coincedeintally, it was under the rule of the peoeple who apreciated harmoyn amongst middle-eastenr peopel regardless of ethnciity, that they had the most times of prosper.

Right, and as it is with Religion, it has been with the wider culture/ethnic traditions as well. Most Iraqis... are not really Arabs, as are most Syrians, or Lebanese, or even Egyptians. They are the consequence of two thousand years of cultural imperialism, much like the Middle East was dominated by the Assyrian-Akkadian and Persian-Aramaic culture beforehand. Some people in the Middle East resisted the cultural self definition, even to this day. Assyrians and Maronites today can easily be called Arabs if they choose, as could ME Jews at one point. But we chose to retain our traditions, even though our spoken Arabic and eating habits and the rest were identical for the most part with any Arab. You are in the very small minority BTW, and you would probably not be all that well if you lived in SA I would imagine. Even in Syria you may have a hard time.


I agree, i dearly hope one day, when all residents and peopel of Middle East can live peacefulyl among each others.

My friend, there will be peace in the Middle East if or when it's empty of all people.


their have been times when all peopel of semitic origin in middle-east, regadless of there religion have lived peacefulyl among each others.


I disagree. There has never been such a time. Not since the Neanderthal made way for the cro-magnon... oh so long ago. The Kalifa "golden age" is a farce, since most of us minorities lived under the heel of the Muslim rulers (not unlike Europe), other times there was always some sort of national or more usually tribal or clannish war going on, among the many Semitic and Hamitic people. One Empire was always hedging against the other. How many wars have the Arabs had? The Ethiopians? The Arameans? The Assyrians? The Babylonians? The Phoenicians? The Jews and Samaritans? The Egyptians? We probably outnumber the Europeans in that account.

I hope, one of those times comes once again.....

To paraphrase Ron Reagan, believe it when you see it. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic, but there just aren't any progressive elements in the Modern Middle East, beyond some minorities, yourself and myself included. Look at the carnage and the police states... do you really see them disappearing without as we say in Hebrew a nes gadol (a great miracle)? We can all hope, but the probability is that the usual suspects (despots and crackpots), will not change their spots.

[peaceful_arab]

do you really see them disappearing without as we say in Hebrew a nes gadol (a great miracle)? We can all hope, but the probability is that the usual suspects (despots and crackpots), will not change their spots.
I cretainly hope so. I think peace is still possible if a rigirous campaign of educating the masses i done. I think it is sad who semites are still fighting amongst each other as they did thousands of years ago. truly a brother vs brother violence.. :/

[bararallu]

Well, yes we can hope.. but look at the actual situation... the education is for the most part hate education, mostly against the Jews but also against other minorities. This is the modus operandi. How else can we rigorously educate them? Invade them and teach them ourselves? The people who are rational will stay rational and an upheaval of the most incredible kind will make rational those who are currently irrational.

There are currently two dynamics in the Middle East/north Africa: Arabist despotism (like the current pharaoh of Egypt, Assad and Qaddafi) and the Selafi/Shia Fundamentalists. Seriously. Where are the Liberals? Oh yes there are a few thousand here and there; but outside of Lebanon there are very very few... and none can be anything other than silent. For breaking their silence is an attack on either the state or the state religion. e.g., Mubarak jails "democrats" faster than the Muslim Brotherhood. They watch Al Jazirah, basically Jihad propaganda first and foremost, and then their local TV and radio filled with disgusting anti-semitic and anti-western propaganda. State run media may I add (as you already know no doubt). And nearly all the alternative news, is Selafi Jihadist agitation. Outside Iraq there is no attempt at western institutions (only at the American behest...). Even Jordan, a rather rational state is dictatorial to it's roots.. with all the stuff that proliferates in Egypt does so in Jordan's kingdom.

[peaceful_arab]

Well, yes we can hope.. but look at the actual situation... the education is for the most part hate education, mostly against the Jews but also against other minorities. This is the modus operandi. How else can we rigorously educate them? Invade them and teach them ourselves? The people who are rational will stay rational and an upheaval of the most incredible kind will make rational those who are currently irrational. I know. The only truly way to educate is, to first, educate the elite rulling class(which is a hard thing to begin with), and then they can chnage the curiculam in schools etc that preach hate, but offcourse, this is a huge undertaking.

There are currently two dynamics in the Middle East/north Africa: Arabist despotism (like the current pharaoh of Egypt, Assad and Qaddafi) and the Selafi/Shia Fundamentalists. Seriously. Where are the Liberals? Oh yes there are a few thousand here and there; but outside of Lebanon there are very very few... and none can be anything other than silent. For breaking their silence is an attack on either the state or the state religion. e.g., Mubarak jails "democrats" faster than the Muslim Brotherhood. They watch Al Jazirah, basically Jihad propaganda first and foremost, and then their local TV and radio filled with disgusting anti-semitic and anti-western propaganda. State run media may I add (as you already know no doubt). And nearly all the alternative news, is Selafi Jihadist agitation. Outside Iraq there is no attempt at western institutions (only at the American behest...). Even Jordan, a rather rational state is dictatorial to it's roots.. with all the stuff that proliferates in Egypt does so in Jordan's kingdom.
you are right, the liberals(well you dotn have to be liberal, IMO you can be a consertative, and still be open to the idea of acccpeting Israel), are a small minoirty. Like i said before, the elite ruling class views must be changed in order to change the voiews of the ordianry public, as its the ideas of the ruling class that eventually trickle down to the regular poeple.

[Yala]

Where are the Liberals? Oh yes there are a few thousand here and there; but outside of Lebanon there are very very few... and none can be anything other than silent. For breaking their silence is an attack on either the state or the state religion.

Well let's see, here's one: Salah Choudhury (http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800014378&tstart=0&mod=1160583282428) from Bangladesh. He's a journalist who started a newspaper calling for the end of demonization of Jews and Christians and for peace with Israel and in return he was arrested, beaten severely, had his newspaper office burned down and is now on trial for his life.

[bararallu]

Well let's see, here's one: Salah Choudhury (http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800014378&tstart=0&mod=1160583282428) from Bangladesh. He's a journalist who started a newspaper calling for the end of demonization of Jews and Christians and for peace with Israel and in return he was arrested, beaten severely, had his newspaper office burned down and is now on trial for his life.

Yes there are a few and I'm happy that there are even that many... unfortunately all of them live in fear or live in the west, sometimes also in fear But what I meant specifically is: in the Middle East, in Muslim Arab countries, like Egypt, SA, Yemen, and Jordan etc.

There are a bunch of Lebanese, who are very western... but they are being driven from the middle east. There are a good number of Turks and Kurds. And there are a handful of Arab bloggers and famous dissidents who are typically incarcerated. The United States doesn't even criticize Egypt for jailing it's Liberal Democrats. It just send Mubarak more money. Even Syria is probably even more liberal than the biggest Arab country: Egypt. Not liberal enough to have any western institutions of worth, but still... a touch better.

[bararallu]

I know. The only truly way to educate is, to first, educate the elite rulling class(which is a hard thing to begin with), and then they can chnage the curiculam in schools etc that preach hate, but offcourse, this is a huge undertaking.

You are of course right on the button here, since the "fellahin" or as we call it "am adamah" or just basically: the guy in the street has no say in anything that goes on and is cynically incited by the ruling classes (aka despots and religious crackpots). These elite/ruling classes are not interested in getting displaced though... much like the old feudal lords in Europe and Asia. They have hegemony over their people and it does not better them to become westernized. Like I mentioned, pay attention to Jordan, it's probably the best of them, and still you will not have a one person one vote system in Jordan, nor a free press, nor a freedom of assembly, nor a free and secular Judiciary, barely any freedom of religion, or generally a secular government where minorities are well represented and their rights protected.

you are right, the liberals(well you dotn have to be liberal, IMO you can be a consertative, and still be open to the idea of acccpeting Israel), are a small minoirty.

I think there is some confusion in the word Liberal: I mean in it as in Liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberals) political system based on the Enlightenment concepts, which for example is something that doesn't end after just one vote/election but is based on a system of representation and accountability; and economically is lazzes fair or mildly socialist, that respects both private property and meritocracy.

A Liberal system has a commitment to individual rights and equal opportunity to the government/market place. The word in the last 2 decades (in the US) has been co-opted by the Democrats, probably because the republicans made it semantically derogatory. All todays midway moderate democrats and all republicans (minus the occasional closet fascists) are Liberals.

Like i said before, the elite ruling class views must be changed in order to change the voiews of the ordianry public, as its the ideas of the ruling class that eventually trickle down to the regular poeple.

Ok. give me a few reasons why these people would want to do that, I can give a bunch why they would not:

1. Break their [elite] control over institutions, aka loosing power and money (look at the Qaddafi family; the Assad family..)
2. Risk civil war with the Selafis... (the Saudi/Egyptian model)
3. Risk upheaval by communist or other radicals (see Iranian revolution, Yemen's revolution)
4. Overturn thousands of years of traditional governance...

There are so many examples of this, look at Qaddafis sons, seemingly pro west and liberal right? Wrong. While they're partying on in Italy or France they are nice, eloquent guys... but they are 100% in maintaining a dictatorship that they will inherit, they are interested in economic development to what improve the typical Libyan you'd think? Nope... more money to buy more weapons... become stronger to impose their policy on North Africa, including Chad and Egypt, with whom they've had wars before (virtually over nothing). This is the elite, raised in the west. Just an example.

[peaceful_arab]

1. Break their [elite] control over institutions, aka loosing power and money (look at the Qaddafi family; the Assad family..)
2. Risk civil war with the Selafis... (the Saudi/Egyptian model)
3. Risk upheaval by communist or other radicals (see Iranian revolution, Yemen's revolution)
4. Overturn thousands of years of traditional governance...

There are so many examples of this, look at Qaddafis sons, seemingly pro west and liberal right? Wrong. While they're partying on in Italy or France they are nice, eloquent guys... but they are 100% in maintaining a dictatorship that they will inherit, they are interested in economic development to what improve the typical Libyan you'd think? Nope... more money to buy more weapons... become stronger to impose their policy on North Africa, including Chad and Egypt, with whom they've had wars before (virtually over nothing). This is the elite, raised in the west. Just an example.
Right. i tyhink the lust of power is just to great for many of these dicators, and they would rather have the power then true development for the whoel country..

[bararallu]

So what we're left with is funding insurrection (As they fund it against us, and have been since the inception of our state) or we leave them be and shut them off. The only thing is we cant really shut them off... no states can shut of all the information coming into their countries, whether by radio,TV, Internet, or just by virtue of having families overseas. As the information flow increases overtime (and it will) regular people in the street will start questioning their value systems, their economies, their political system, they will try to emulate more western/successful modes rather than less.

And in return the forces of the 7th century will terrorize them like they do in most countries already... e.g., for having/selling music (any music), for foreign hairstyles, for uncovering their heads and wearing foreign fashions, for dating without permission. The Kulturkampf will come anyway, and Osama & co will be there to fight it, and the despots will be happy to let that battle be waged (see how it's done in Pakistan and Egypt and your own former country SA), as long as the despots are not directly challenged they will be more than happy to look the other way. They will also be happy to export it and even fund it, as many of them do so now. How much of Saudi zakat is accounted for? How about other sort of "donations"? What is happening in Iraq is happening in Lebanon, in Israel, in India, in Afghanistan, in Thailand, in Algeria, in Turkey, and so on... a culture war between individualist modernity and reactionary collectivist primitivism. It used to be communism, today it's Islamism. A true self fulfilled prophecy by all parties involved.

It's a classic chicken and egg situation. You need a strong, educated, politically free and represented, Liberal (per my above definition), middle class to stay off the radical elements... not the despots and their nepotist cronies.

This is why I'm pessimistic... it's a horror show that is slowly unfolding, and we're barely through the first act.

[peaceful_arab]

As the information flow increases overtime (and it will) regular people in the street will start questioning their value systems, their economies, their political system, they will try to emulate more western/successful modes rather than less.
I agree 100%.

a culture war between individualist modernity and reactionary collectivist primitivism. It used to be communism, today it's Islamism. A true self fulfilled prophecy by all parties involved.
Yep, alot of these peopel dont realize how extremism etc is only setting them further back. Alot of them dont seem to realize that violence etc will only set them back. In this modern globalized economy, where economies of different countries of the world depend on each other, this self-imposed 'isolationism', is only going to set them back.


i agree, 100%.

[quote] it's a horror show that is slowly unfolding, and we're barely through the first act.
I certainly hope not, last thing our reigon needs is more unstability...

[MGB8]

Let's ask you some true or false questions, to see if you have a clue about what you are talking about:

(1) Did the UN R. 181 partition the Western Portion of the Mandate of Palestine (about 22% of it) into 2 states, 1 majority Jewish and 1 majority Arab? Yes or No?

(1A) In 1917, when the British took control of the Area from the Ottomans, were Jews about 11% of the Population of the Entire Mandate of Palestine (including Jordan, the West Bank, and Gaza)? Yes or No?

(1B) Did the Partition plan give the Jewish state about 11% of the Entire Mandate of Palestine, with a near majority of that land (if not a majority) being the Negev desert, and Jerusalem surrounded by the Arab state? Yes or No?

(1C) Was the vast majority of the land in Israel either "State owned land" or land privately owned by Jews (and did land privately owned by Arabs who remained in Israel through and after the war remain in the Arab owners possession?) Yes or No?

(2) Were Arabs going to be a significant minority in the Jewish state, with private land rights protected in that state and equal votings rights? Yes or No?

(3) Did the Arab nations reject this partition and invade Israel? Yes or No?

(4) Did the Arabs announce goals of this invasion to be to kill all the Jews there (push them into the sea) and take their private property? Yes or No?

(5) After the war, did Arabs continue to live in Israel, with property rights and equal voting rights (1 person, 1 vote)? Yes or No?

(6) Was the PLO formed before the 1967 War, renouncing claim to the West Bank and Gaza and made only to destroy Israel? Yes or No?

(7) Did the Arabs claim that the goal of the 67 war was to committ genocide on the Jews and steal Jewish private and public land? Yes or No?

(8) Do the Arab demand that the West Bank and Gaza be free of Jews - Judenrein? Yes or No?

(9) Have the Arab populations historically desecrated Jewish holy sites, like the Western Wall and other sites in Jerusalem pre-1967, or the tomb of Joseph in the 2nd Intifadah? Yes or No?

(10) Has the Arab world done well in having ethnically diverse populations in Iraq or Lebanon, or does one group always seek to dominate the other?

(11) Where have the Egyptian Copts gone?

(12) Do the Jewish people have the same right to a state as do the Palestinian people, or Italian people, or Irish people, or Armenian people, or ar Jews less than those groups in your eyes, Shotgun?

(13) Are there Arab members of Israeli Parliament and the Israeli Supreme Court? Yes or No?

(14) Do the Muslim authorities retain control over Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem? Yes or No?

Your posts are garbage. The partition did not demand that Arabs give up their home. They divide a former Ottoman province among its residents - but no one had to give up land. In short, your posts is either based on pure ignorance or purposeful lies on your part -and I bet the latter -that you are indeed simply a lying Jew-hater.


Ok. I started to get into a long response, then saw this. How is living together hate speech? Explain that one to me. I believe that people are people. I have spent my whole life defending the concept. You see races, skin color, religion. I see people.

You will be in this as long as you build walls to exclude people. Be they physical or psychological. Above you stated over and over how the Arabs need to "accept the Jewish state". That's bullcrap. I'm not giving up MY HOME for someone else's "homeland". That's what the UN and the Zionists demanded of the Arabs, and that's why you're at war. If the decision had been "we want a democracy, accept this constitution" and the Arabs started fighting, your point would be valid. That ain't what happened. The Zionist movement told the Arabs to GTFO. I would not have moved one inch if you came for my house. And if you laid a hand on my family, you would have seen violence.

Most of this conflict is based on both sides demonizing the other, and refusing to see each other as people. You don't honestly expect me to believe that you would give up your home (I mean your physical house) so that someone else can move in and demolish it. No. You would fight. So, you're a Palestinian. That which you hate most.

You can call me a hate monger all you want. But the shoe does not fit. One of us is calling for all people to be treated equally. The other is calling for special treatment for one group over the other. There is an American legal concept that helped us to overcome this thought process: "Separate is inherently unequal".

But that's just so much hate speech to you...

[MGB8]

I cretainly hope so. I think peace is still possible if a rigirous campaign of educating the masses i done. I think it is sad who semites are still fighting amongst each other as they did thousands of years ago. truly a brother vs brother violence.. :/

That said, pasty white Irish people have fought and killed each other for decades over exactly how to Worship Jesus and God and the trinity, etc. It's sad, but it's human.

The Jews want security - based not in agreements but in actual, practical terms (ie. border guards, strategic depth, etc.) Many Pal Arabs appear to want dignity above all, a respect for their history and losses and status.

Unfortunately, however, too many can't put themselves in the other's shoes, or don't care to try. They'd rather die than compromise.

[bararallu]

Let's ask you some true or false questions, to see if you have a clue about what you are talking about:

I think this guy baled like the ill wind he was...

[dayag]

Vice Premier Haim Ramon "is offering the Palestinians an Israeli withdrawal from nearly all of the West Bank, including the Arab neighborhoods of east Jerusalem, as part of a final peace deal.

According to the report, the border between Israel and the future Palestinian state will roughly follow the route of the separation fence leaving major Israeli settlement blocs and between 3 and 8 percent of the West Bank in Israel's hands."

You can see the rest of the story at:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3446978,00.html

[Mediocrates]

What is the point talking to someone who will never have any intention of listening or agreeing to anything? Israel could offer the Palestinians the world and the Palestinians would refuse on the grounds that it isn't enough. What Israel need do is solidify a single official final offer and hold it out for the Palestinians to accept or counter offer or not. But unless and until the Palestinians respond with something, anything, it's all moot. It's like dealing with a moody child who can't be coaxed out of their funk.

[dayag]

What is the point talking to someone who will never have any intention of listening or agreeing to anything? Israel could offer the Palestinians the world and the Palestinians would refuse on the grounds that it isn't enough. What Israel need do is solidify a single official final offer and hold it out for the Palestinians to accept or counter offer or not. But unless and until the Palestinians respond with something, anything, it's all moot. It's like dealing with a moody child who can't be coaxed out of their funk.

Don't assume Abbas is as stupid as Arafat was. The Bush administration is pushing Olmert and Abbas to come up with an agreement and the Palestinians know that they can always continue their game of bad cop worse cop. There isn't really a downside for them. They sign an agreement, get an Israeli withdrawal and foreign money, then allow the terrorism to continue. So, in exchange for a signature on a piece of paper Israel gives up strategic lands overlooking its population centers.

[Yala]

Don't assume Abbas is as stupid as Arafat was.

He is actually much dumber than Arafat. Arafat at least knew how to keep Hamas in check, cutting off their beards every now and then, allowing them to blow themselves up here and there but never giving them any real power. Abbas on the other hand let them become as powerful, if not more so, than his corrupt gang of terrorists.

[peaceful_arab]

Vice Premier Haim Ramon "is offering the Palestinians an Israeli withdrawal from nearly all of the West Bank, including the Arab neighborhoods of east Jerusalem, as part of a final peace deal.

According to the report, the border between Israel and the future Palestinian state will roughly follow the route of the separation fence leaving major Israeli settlement blocs and between 3 and 8 percent of the West Bank in Israel's hands."

You can see the rest of the story at:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3446978,00.html
Even though this sounds fair imo, i dont think its going to get accepted.

[MGB8]

There will be (and is) opposition on both sides. Really, you'd need a referendum with a super majority (say 60%), both in Israel and the Territories, to get this really accepted. Or at least a majority.

Both groups have strong claims on the land, emotional claims, intrinsic to their national identities. For Jews, this is the heartland of the Kingdom of Israel, land won in a war Israel didn't want in 1967, retained through another war when the Arab world attacked on Yom Kippur in 1973. Further, the Palestinian claim rings false when the Palestinians didn't claim the land when Jordan ruled it, renouncing claim in the PLO charter and never moving to get a Palestinian state established before 67.

For the Palestinian Arabs, this is their land of many generations of living in the area, regardless of who was technically ruling it, for hundreds of years, and who are these Jews, half of whom lived in Europe for centuries, to have any claim to it. Plus, the Jewish kingdom fell, and it was the Muslims who won it back, so it shouldn't go back to the Jews. Dar al Islam should remain dar al Islam - it's more than enough to accept Israel even existing on land that also should be Arab and Islamic and that had Arabs who were expelled or who fled from that area. Israel is lucky that any partition is possible, because the Arabs outnumber and outbirth the Jews, and if Israel could be forced to annex the area, then it would revert to an Arab state - which the Arab world believes is the natural state of that area, anyways.

[Reffo]

Yes MGB8, I agree with your analysis but let's take it a step further and ask what should be a just compromise?

My own opinion is that we can liken this dispute between the two peoples to a dispute between a very rich person and a very poor one where both have legitimate claims to the same thing. If the judge would award the item to the rich person, it would just add to his already very large collection of riches and fortune but it would leave the poor person with absolutely nothing....

Now back to the Middle East dispute: The Arab people already have 22 independent nations spanning all of North Africa and 99% of the Middle East, a huge land mass, which includes enormous oil wealth. And what do the Jewish people have? Only Israel!

[jahzwolf]

step 1- its not their land. Genesis 22.

step 2- Israel is the Jewish homeland- policies you may deem racialist are there to protect the only place in the world where jews aren't persecuted.

step 3- there are equal rights for all Israelis. Take a look at the equal rights of Israel's neighbours.

step 4- and make it easier for terrorists to murder people in cafes and bus stops? Build more, bigger walls if necessary!

step 5- Palestinian areas tend to get demolished when hamas and friends lean out of windows and fire rockets!

step 6- What would you suggest, replace the star of David with an explosive belt?

Step 1- Admit that Jerusalem belongs to all those who claim the God of Abraham as their God, not just the Jews, and open Israel to immigration from all three major religions not JUST Jewish.

Step 2- Israel is a Homeland FOR ALL BELIEVERS not just JEWS, it is time to evolve into what God desires Israel to be NOT what Jews say it should be.

Step 3- All people have the RIGHT to be a Israeli not JUST JEWS...

Step 4- If Israel was what God wants it to be there would be NO Terrorists, as all citizens would be EQUAL.

Step 5- Hamas would no longer fire rockets because Muslims would be equal partners in a Tri-National State.

[ShimonG]

Step 1- Admit that Jerusalem belongs.....

Short answer to all these idiotic non-steps.

Jerusalem belongs to JEWS only.

[jahzwolf]

Short answer to all these idiotic non-steps.

Jerusalem belongs to JEWS only.

It is this attitude of those who believe that Jerusalem is only for the JEWS Alone that will bring the nations against her as Zechariah predicted... There was a time after WWII for a homeland for the Jews, but that time is over, it is TIME to open her up to be a homeland for ALL believers in Jah, who feel they are being gathered again to the Holy Land.

End the Apartheid, a single Bi-National State is the Solution, with Jerusalem as a INTERNATIONAL City is the ONLY peaceful solution, and those who stand in the way of this will be responsible for the destruction of her..

Zechariah Writes, in Chapter Fourteen, the following:

Watch, for the day of the Lord is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you! On that day I will gather all the nations to fight against Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, and the women raped. Half the population will be taken away into captivity, and half will be left among the ruins of the city.

[Steven]

There is your problem... that is why there will NEVER be peace, until you admit it belongs to ALL the children of Abraham.... How can you be sooo selfish to think that Jews are the ONLY ones that have been chosen by God to be gathered back to Jerusalem?

God is Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo Big, how can you say only those who reject the Gospel and the Quran are being gathered back in Jerusalem?

Prove it belongs only to the ONLY the Jews... It can easily be shown to you from your own Torah that it belongs to all those who worship Jah?

No, there will never be peace because of Islam.

Step 5- Hamas would no longer fire rockets because Muslims would be equal partners in a Tri-National State.

Right, they would just submit everyone to Islamic rule.
No matter what Israel does, Hamas will not be happy as they want an Islamic Middle East.

Israel has given more then enough and gotten nothing in return and please let me know when there is freedom of religion in Islamic countries.

[jahzwolf]

No, there will never be peace because of Islam.

Step 5- Hamas would no longer fire rockets because Muslims would be equal partners in a Tri-National State.

Right, they would just submit everyone to Islamic rule.
No matter what Israel does, Hamas will not be happy as they want an Islamic Middle East.

Israel has given more then enough and gotten nothing in return.

You are avoiding the reason Hamas is fighting, they are fighting because they want a right of return...

I think if you asked them if they would agree to a Bi-National State. Without it, there will be a war one day that will bring about Zechariah's prediction....

[Steven]

You are avoiding the reason Hamas is fighting, they are fighting because they want a right of return...

I think if you asked them if they would agree to a Bi-National State.

They would say yes to that only to get their hooks into Israel then they would look to take over.

This is not a fighting for a right of return, they want to destroy Israel completely.


The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

[jahzwolf]

Israel will be destroyed completley as we know her today, unless she decides to welcome ALL believers as equal voting citizens of the country...

A BI-National State is the only hope that the Jews have to keep any kind of control and protection for the Jews living there today.

It is TIME for her to realize this, and to work for a peaceful transistion of power to the will of the Majority of believers living there and are destined to arrive.

She can no longer stand behind the holocoust as a reason for a Jewish Alone State. That generation has passed now. There is no more reason for her to be a Jewish State. She MUST become a nation of those who believe in the God of Abraham be they Jew, Christain or Muslim.

If she does not, she will be destroyed, just like the last two times she did not bend to the will of God.

[Steven]

Israel will be destroyed completley as we know her today, unless she decides to welcome ALL believers as equal voting citizens of the country...

I am pretty sure that I read on this site that they have equal voting rights and they are now welcome there. You obviously just want them to let in more of the enemy.

A BI-National State is the only hope that the Jews have to keep any kind of control and protection for the Jews living there today.

Once again read the Hamas charter, there will NEVER be peace because of Islam.

It is TIME for her to realize this, and to work for a peaceful transistion of power to the will of the Majority of believers living there and are destined to arrive.
Right they should just hand the country over to the Muslims.:rolleyes:

She can no longer stand behind the holocoust as a reason for a Jewish Alone State. That generation has passed now. There is no more reason for her to be a Jewish State. She MUST become a nation of those who believe in the God of Abraham be they Jew, Christain or Muslim.
Israel is not standing behind the holocaust, they are protecting themselves from Muslim hostility and who the hell are you to say that there is no reason to be a Jewish state, some self centered Muslim?

If she does not, she will be destroyed, just like the last two times she did not bend to the will of God.


Do you mean like the time Israel kicked the crap out of its neighbors?

[nbarzelay]

You are avoiding the reason Hamas is fighting, they are fighting because they want a right of return...

I think if you asked them if they would agree to a Bi-National State. Without it, there will be a war one day that will bring about Zechariah's prediction....
Please read the Hamas charter. Its has been unchanged since 1986, so not really difficult to find. Their stated intention, as the PLO charter, is to destroy Israel. There will be no end until this objective of their is met.

The Waqf, which is in charge of the Temple mount since 1967 (big mistake by the way), has made the attempt since that time to destroy Jewish relics of the times of the Temples (1st and 2nd) in order to destroy any claim Jews might have to the Temple mount.

Israel was well along the way to being re-established where it once lay over 60 years prior to the Holocaust. So you using the Holocaust as the driving reason for Israel's re-establishment is moot.

There is and has not been a peaceful resolution presented by the Arab bloc/league from the get-go. There is not reset button to erase all previous wars and current conflicts. The intentions between the State of Israel, whom have offered fair peace on a number of occasions, and the PA/PLO, whom have rejected all these offers up to this date, are worlds apart.

So read up on the basics, then come back. Its growing a bit tiresome debating people who have so little knowledge in these topics to begin with.

[jahzwolf]

"Jerusalem 'belongs' to the Jews Alone" that is the problem...


Remember Isaiah 56:7

Then I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them happy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on my altar, because my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

What part of "all nations" excludes Muslims?


Stop your fear mongering..... Trust God if you truly are a believer in Him.

Israel must change her identity to allowing immigration of all nations that feel they are being called to Israel to live.

If Israel were to modify it's government into a Bi-National government. There would be peace.

Any other solution is simply outside the Will of the Creator, and will bring Zechariah's prophecy upon Israel. She has been destroyed twice, what makes you think that God won't do it again?

[nbarzelay]

Right, and follow suit of the European countries where Muslim immigration and excessive child rearing will make European natives a minority in their own country in 20-30 years? No thank you. If you wish to shoot yourself in the foot, by all means, go right ahead. Tunisians and Moroccans are already smacking themselves over the head by allow the Arab populations run out of hand. Instability has followed and will continue to do so.

Read the prophecy again, doesn't state Israel's destruction at the end. But really, enough with your 'fear mongering' via the use of scripture.

Best solution would be division until Islamism is a thing of the past. There is no chance of unity, peace or whatnot until this period has past and the Islamic uhmmah catches up with the rest of the Western world.

[jahzwolf]

Right, and follow suit of the European countries where Muslim immigration and excessive child rearing will make European natives a minority in their own country in 20-30 years? No thank you. If you wish to shoot yourself in the foot, by all means, go right ahead. Tunisians and Moroccans are already smacking themselves over the head by allow the Arab populations run out of hand. Instability has followed and will continue to do so.

Read the prophecy again, doesn't state Israel's destruction at the end. But really, enough with your 'fear mongering' via the use of scripture.

Best solution would be division until Islamism is a thing of the past. There is no chance of unity, peace or whatnot until this period has past and the Islamic uhmmah catches up with the rest of the Western world.

You are right in the end God Himself rules, but NOT BEFORE Israel's destruction.

There are other prophecy's that call for 7 months of clean up of all the dead too, like after a NUKE?

If you haven't noticed lately that the entire world is becoming ONE multi-cultural society.

Seattle is a excellent example of how a city can function with ALL nationality's living side by side in PEACE.

But it requires TRUE democracy, something that Israel refuses to embrace. It will be the end of her as we know it today...

Fear mongering, that is something Israel knows how to employ very well, as we have seen in Iraq and now Iran....

Iraq is her doing, and anyone above 50 knows it... God on the other hand is something to fear, do you say you do not FEAR God?

You may also notice that Islam is on the rise not the decline.... The Quran is proving itself every day in the hearts of count them BILLIONS

[Steven]

"Jerusalem 'belongs' to the Jews Alone" that is the problem...


Remember Isaiah 56:7

Then I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them happy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on my altar, because my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

What part of "all nations" excludes Muslims?


Stop your fear mongering..... Trust God if you truly are a believer in Him.

Israel must change her identity to allowing immigration of all nations that feel they are being called to Israel to live.

If Israel were to modify it's government into a Bi-National government. There would be peace.

Any other solution is simply outside the Will of the Creator, and will bring Zechariah's prophecy upon Israel. She has been destroyed twice, what makes you think that God won't do it again?


Who said that Muslims are not allowed in Israel and to flood Israel with Muslims would just destroy Israel. But that is obviously what you want.

Fear mongering.....hey maybe you can come up with some new talking points.

[Steven]

You are right in the end God Himself rules, but NOT BEFORE Israel's destruction.

There are other prophecy's that call for 7 months of clean up of all the dead too, like after a NUKE?

If you haven't noticed lately that the entire world is becoming ONE multi-cultural society.

Seattle is a excellent example of how a city can function with ALL nationality's living side by side in PEACE.

But it requires TRUE democracy, something that Israel refuses to embrace. It will be the end of her as we know it today...

Fear mongering, that is something Israel knows how to employ very well, as we have seen in Iraq and now Iran....

Iraq is her doing, and anyone above 50 knows it... God on the other hand is something to fear, do you say you do not FEAR God?

You may also notice that Islam is on the rise not the decline.... The Quran is proving itself every day in the hearts of count them BILLIONS


If Israel is destroyed it will be by the savages of Islam.

You might want to realize that there are not BILLIONS of Muslims, I guess your Imam lied to you.
The reason that there are so many Muslims is that they are born into it and threatened by death not to leave and other religions are not allowed to proselytize. Some accomplishment, not impressed.

Do you really think that Israelis are going to side with you, with your unfriendly threatening posts?

[nbarzelay]

If you haven't noticed lately that the entire world is becoming ONE multi-cultural society.

Seattle is a excellent example of how a city can function with ALL nationality's living side by side in PEACE.

The issue of multi-culturalism is not the issue here. Its a case of simple demographics, something which you fail to understand. Look at France, the Netherlands, and Belgium as test cases where the native demographic is threatened by the ever-growing immigration population. The Netherlands, one of the most liberal in all of Europe, has finally reacted to the growing threat of Islamism within their borders. It has rescinded from their standard approach of allowing immigration to embrace multi-culturalism towards following stricter immigration policies. But this is a little too late.

Put Seattle in the same shoes and they will react the same way.


But it requires TRUE democracy, something that Israel refuses to embrace. It will be the end of her as we know it today...

Israel is the only true democracy in the ME and N. African region. Retaining the Jewish heritage of Israel is not undemocratic by any means.


Fear mongering, that is something Israel knows how to employ very well, as we have seen in Iraq and now Iran....

Iraq is her doing, and anyone above 50 knows it... God on the other hand is something to fear, do you say you do not FEAR God?

Iraq hasn't been a threat to Israel since 1981 when Israel destroyed the Osirak reactor, a couple of months after Iran's failed attempt to do the same.

Iran is an actual threat to Israel since it has and will continue to finance, arm and train their terrorist organizations in proxy-warfare against Israel and Western interests. What will stop Iran from providing non-conventional weapons to groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.? Nothing.

But really, does everything have to revert back to Iraq? Always such a knee-jerk response to everything and a topic of comfort for people like yourself in their verbal attacks against Israel when we aren't even on the topic of Iraq. Don't you get tired of employing this tactic yourself? Guess not.


You may also notice that Islam is on the rise not the decline.... The Quran is proving itself every day in the hearts of count them BILLIONS
Thanks for this admission. So you think this rise of Islamism (as in fundamentalist Islam which doesn't accept kaffirs on perceived Islamic land ruling their own country, which includes ALL of Israel) provides fertile grounds for peace? Highly doubtful. Hence waiting and protecting one's citizens is the best path to take.

[Rob]

Look at France, the Netherlands, and Belgium as test cases where the native demographic is threatened by the ever-growing immigration population. The Netherlands, one of the most liberal in all of Europe, has finally reacted to the growing threat of Islamism within their borders.

The most popular name for baby boys in the four big cities in the Netherlands is Mohammed. What few dare to talk about is the cost for health care. Since intercousin marriage is according to the sharia and a preferred way of marriage for many Muslims, the burden for health care is huge. A few years ago law makers tried to abolish intercousin marriage, you can guess who protested against this.

It has rescinded from their standard approach of allowing immigration to embrace multi-culturalism towards following stricter immigration policies. But this is a little too late..

For PC reasons, everybody else outside the EU has to suffer.

[nbarzelay]

Well, if Muslims want to increase their chance of deformities, then go right ahead. Can't really stop them from marrying their cousins or local goat.

There are more places to live than the EU. This whole 'Eurabia' bit is becoming more and more of a reality. I want my country, the Netherlands, to stay Dutch, not become so -stan province.

[Rob]

There are more places to live than the EU. This whole 'Eurabia' bit is becoming more and more of a reality. I want my country, the Netherlands, to stay Dutch, not become so -stan province.

I am from there also. Aangenaam!

[nbarzelay]

Gezellig. :clap:

[bararallu]

he... two Nederlander Jews, both in Israel, writing in English on an American sponsored forum finally finding each other :D.

[jahzwolf]

Well I can see most of you are still back in the sixties....

God is calling ALL of His believers back to Jerusalem, not just JEWS!!!!

The earthquake looms....

On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west, for half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

[bararallu]

please don't feed the theist!

[jahzwolf]

please don't feed the theist!

What are you saying that Israel supports Atheists?

[bararallu]

What are you saying that Israel supports Atheists?

Of course. It supports those and all sorts of nutty theists like you.

[Fence]

I can see now why most Arabs in Middle East and people around the world do not support USA and Israel, even UK.

Israel now thinks that that land is theirs when history has dictate that the land was handed to them as a 'STATE', not a country.

All those Israel-supremacists are now ignoring how Israel is founded, twisted the facts and spew out truths to the rest of the world in order to gain acceptance for it's action.

Yes, car bombings and anything that involves terrorism is Never Right. But it doesn't justify any actions taken by a 'democracy' country like Israel.

In the eyes of the world, Israel is more of a bully and fast becoming another USA.

"Love thy neighbors"

"Thou shall not covet"

"If your enemy slap you on your right cheek, offer him your left"

Message to God:

Sorry God, we people of Israel cannot follow your teachings even though we are your children. We will pay those Arabs back for what they did. they have taken away our loved ones, therefore, we must repay them for this 'kind' favor.

Sorry God, your ten commandments not on our priority list right now.

Pardon me God, but we got more Arabs extremists to put down.

[varian]

Oh great, now I have to genuflect before I read F's posts. What's next; foot baths??? :cool:

[bararallu]

Message to God:

Sorry God, we people of Israel cannot follow your teachings even though we are your children. We will pay those Arabs back for what they did. they have taken away our loved ones, therefore, we must repay them for this 'kind' favor.


"I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Genesis 12: 3).

[Reffo]

"If your enemy slap you on your right cheek, offer him your left"I hope that you and those you love will one day face terror and terrorists like Hamas. We will then see if you'll follow the advice that you so "generously" offer others ... I doubt that you will, but I really wish it on you you'll deserve each other!

[Y. Shulamith]

Plan 1: Send all the Arabs back to Jordan...their true homeland. Too bad that the Jordanians don't want these evil folk in their midst, either! In fact, no arab nation wants them and that speaks volumes for these people.

[Mosche]

Israel now thinks that that land is theirs when history has dictate[d] that the land was handed to them as a 'STATE', not a country.

The word "state" in international law means "nation" (i.e. sovereign country). So when Israel claims ownership of the land, she is correct--even the United Nations recognizes this point.

For the next Bible study, can we discuss Joshua and the Battle of Jerico?
Pleeeeease!

[I'm Muslim]

hhhhhhhhh , so strange and you should know that the problem between muslims and jews is greater than your jokes . It is the oldest war that has lasted for 60 years and jews conquering our country Palastine , I'm not from Palastine but It is my second country . I don't know why the people believe that Palastine is the land of jews ????????? any one think that I suggest that he should refresh his mind and he should read any book of Geography writen before 70 years ago , I know that it is difficult but try . For Israel , they should get a classes of courtage , humanity , ethics , in order to stop fire civilians by using F-16 and machineguns . I'll tell you more about some stupidity of Israel Allah willing .


some day we will live in Palastine , it is soon Allah willing .

[codedvirus]

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/84

Please read the above article and come back.
---------------------------------------
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/84

Conclusion

Politics, not religious sensibility, has fueled the Muslim attachment to Jerusalem for nearly fourteen centuries; what the historian Bernard Wasserstein has written about the growth of Muslim feeling in the course of the Countercrusade applies through the centuries: "often in the history of Jerusalem, heightened religious fervour may be explained in large part by political necessity." This pattern has three main implications. First, Jerusalem will never be more than a secondary city for Muslims; "belief in the sanctity of Jerusalem," Sivan rightly concludes, "cannot be said to have been widely diffused nor deeply rooted in Islam." Second, the Muslim interest lies not so much in controlling Jerusalem as it does in denying control over the city to anyone else. Third, the Islamic connection to the city is weaker than the Jewish one because it arises as much from transitory and mundane considerations as from the immutable claims of faith.

Mecca, by contrast, is the eternal city of Islam, the place from which non-Muslims are strictly forbidden. Very roughly speaking, what Jerusalem is to Jews, Mecca is to Muslims – a point made in the Qur'an itself (2:145) in recognizing that Muslims have one qibla and "the people of the Book" another one. The parallel was noted by medieval Muslims; the geographer Yaqut (1179-1229) wrote, for example, that "Mecca is holy to Muslims and Jerusalem to the Jews." In modern times, some scholars have come to the same conclusion: "Jerusalem plays for the Jewish people the same role that Mecca has for Muslims," writes Abdul Hadi Palazzi, director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community.

The similarities are striking. Jews pray thrice to Jerusalem, Muslims five times daily to Mecca. Muslims see Mecca as the navel of the world, just as Jews see Jerusalem. Whereas Jews believe Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael's brother Isaac in Jerusalem, Muslims believe this episode took place in Mecca. The Ka‘ba in Mecca has similar functions for Muslims as the Temple in Jerusalem for Jews (such as serving as a destination for pilgrimage). The Temple and Ka‘ba are both said to be inimitable structures. The supplicant takes off his shoes and goes barefoot in both their precincts. Solomon's Temple was inaugurated on Yom Kippur, the tenth day of the year, and the Ka‘ba receives its new cover also on the tenth day of each year. If Jerusalem is for Jews a place so holy that not just its soil but even its air is deemed sacred, Mecca is the place whose "very mention reverberates awe in Muslims' hearts," according to Abad Ahmad of the Islamic Society of Central Jersey.

This parallelism of Mecca and Jerusalem offers the basis of a solution, as Sheikh Palazzi wisely writes:

separation in directions of prayer is a mean to decrease possible rivalries in management of Holy Places. For those who receive from Allah the gift of equilibrium and the attitude to reconciliation, it should not be difficult to conclude that, as no one is willing to deny Muslims a complete sovereignty over Mecca, from an Islamic point of view - notwithstanding opposite, groundless propagandistic claims - there is not any sound theological reason to deny an equal right of Jews over Jerusalem.

To back up this view, Palazzi notes several striking and oft-neglected passages in the Qur'an. One of them (5:22-23) quotes Moses instructing the Jews to "enter the Holy Land (al-ard al-muqaddisa) which God has assigned unto you." Another verse (17:104) has God Himself making the same point: "We said to the Children of Israel: ‘Dwell securely in the Land.'" Qur'an 2:145 states that the Jews "would not follow your qibla; nor are you going to follow their qibla," indicating a recognition of the Temple Mount as the Jews' direction of prayer. "God himself is saying that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as Mecca is to Moslems," Palazzi concludes.

His analysis has a clear and sensible implication: just as Muslims rule an undivided Mecca, Jews should rule an undivided Jerusalem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[kozzol]

Get real all you need to do is look back before mohammadiens even exsisted, and you will clearly see that the Jewish people had been living in their home land for well over a thousand years.

You need to just get it into your heads, Israel is here to stay whether you like it or not and unless the palestinians abide by the laws and agreements, they will have to eventually leave because like unwanted guest, they are tolerated but only for so long.

[Steven]

hhhhhhhhh , so strange and you should know that the problem between muslims and jews is greater than your jokes . It is the oldest war that has lasted for 60 years and jews conquering our country Palastine , I'm not from Palastine but It is my second country . I don't know why the people believe that Palastine is the land of jews ????????? any one think that I suggest that he should refresh his mind and he should read any book of Geography writen before 70 years ago , I know that it is difficult but try . For Israel , they should get a classes of courtage , humanity , ethics , in order to stop fire civilians by using F-16 and machineguns . I'll tell you more about some stupidity of Israel Allah willing .


some day we will live in Palastine , it is soon Allah willing .



ummmm................the probelms between Muslims and Jews have been going on a lot longer than 60 years. I guess your Imam didn't tell you that.

Allah willing.:lol:

The Islamic world needs a lesson on humanity.

[varian]

hhhhhhhhh , so strange ...
[COLOR="red"][SIZE="3"]some day we will live in Palastine , it is soon Allah willing .

hhhhhhhh , so strange ... allah must not be willing, because he has allowed the progeny of 'apes and swine' to humiliate and kick Muslim butt for the last six decades that the Islamic hordes have been trying to exterminate them (finish what your secular champion Hitler couldn't get done). Anyway, HaShem does not fear Islam's imp demon of the desert or their false prophet (He never sent the wanker). You Muslims get gods and demons mixed up, and it is easy to see over the past decades that Islam is following the demon/evil djinn. Perhaps the true G-D has been revealed already by the inability for Islam to exterminate the Jews. I'll continue to bow to HaShem, you can keep your imp!!!

[israelpalistine]

hhhhhhhhh , so strange and you should know that the problem between muslims and jews is greater than your jokes . It is the oldest war that has lasted for 60 years and jews conquering our country Palastine , I'm not from Palastine but It is my second country . I don't know why the people believe that Palastine is the land of jews ????????? any one think that I suggest that he should refresh his mind and he should read any book of Geography writen before 70 years ago , I know that it is difficult but try . For Israel , they should get a classes of courtage , humanity , ethics , in order to stop fire civilians by using F-16 and machineguns . I'll tell you more about some stupidity of Israel Allah willing .


some day we will live in Palastine , it is soon Allah willing .

#1, there is no such thing as some invisible, mystical character called "Allah". its just a story like the bible and "GOD". There is no such thing as "God's"....so get your head out of your azz and realize that.

BUT....if there was a god called Allah, he's a scumbag. He's the same scumbag that the terrorists pray to that cut the heads off of innocent people. They are Muslim, you are Muslim....same human grabage.

Two things that will never ever happen: #1) Palistinians will never ever run or rule what is now Israel. .......AND #2) The stupid Israeli government will never nuke their Muslim loser enemies that say they want to kill them.

So.........these two morons will keep fighting like idiots for another 60 years. Good, let the idiots of the world just kill themselves off, better for the rest of the world.

[Y. Shulamith]

hhhhhhhhh , so strange and you should know that the problem between muslims and jews is greater than your jokes . It is the oldest war that has lasted for 60 years and jews conquering our country Palastine , I'm not from Palastine but It is my second country . I don't know why the people believe that Palastine is the land of jews ????????? any one think that I suggest that he should refresh his mind and he should read any book of Geography writen before 70 years ago , I know that it is difficult but try . For Israel , they should get a classes of courtage , humanity , ethics , in order to stop fire civilians by using F-16 and machineguns . I'll tell you more about some stupidity of Israel Allah willing .


some day we will live in Palastine , it is soon Allah willing .



Ahllah willing, you'd all be dead as a doornail in a nannosecond........:stick::stick:

[Mosche]

hhhhhhhh , so strange ... allah must not be willing, because he has allowed the progeny of 'apes and swine' to humiliate and kick Muslim butt for the last six decades that the Islamic hordes have been trying to exterminate them

This is one of the funniest comments that I've read in some time--I'm still grinning!

You, my friend, get ten Clint Eastwood Karma points!:clap:

[varian]

... --I'm still grinning!

A little more to keep you grinning. :D

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=14895

[ShimonG]

hhhhhhhh , so strange ... allah must not be willing, because he has allowed the progeny of 'apes and swine' to humiliate and kick Muslim butt for the last six decades that the Islamic hordes have been trying to exterminate them (finish what your secular champion Hitler couldn't get done). Anyway, HaShem does not fear Islam's imp demon of the desert or their false prophet (He never sent the wanker). You Muslims get gods and demons mixed up, and it is easy to see over the past decades that Islam is following the demon/evil djinn. Perhaps the true G-D has been revealed already by the inability for Islam to exterminate the Jews. I'll continue to bow to HaShem, you can keep your imp!!!

Hear Hear!!!!!!!!!!!

Let your allah or mohammad or whoever come at us! This time we'll not be led meekly to the camps. So, i :vomit: on your allah. If you have the ball$, come and meet us in battle, and not hide behind women and children.

[I'm Muslim]

the probelms between Muslims and Jews have been going on a lot longer than 60 years.

First : you are right it is more than 60 years , but conquering Palastine has been going .


I guess your Imam didn't tell you that.
when you guess be sure .
My Imam told me some things that unfortunately you don't know .
Question : Who is your god ?????????????????????????????
hhhhhhhhhhhhh you won't answer

[I'm Muslim]

Ahllah willing, you'd all be dead as a doornail in a nannosecond

If I'll be dead in Palastine that's so great
As muslims we don't be scared of death , every one will die .

[I'm Muslim]

Let your allah or mohammad or whoever come at us!

You must respect the peoples' thoughts .

If you have the ball$, come and meet us in battle, and not hide behind women and children

Are you ready for tha battle ???
We don't hide behind women and chidren , but you kill the feti in thiere mum's uterus .
Did you forget Mohammad Aldorrah ????????????
his father was covering him by his body from the bullets of the israeli soldiers

[baggi]

I'm Muslim:
are you angry at israel becource of the conflict in gaza? or is it becource the Koran tells you to be ?

and does it have to be a jew that kills you in order for you to get all those virgins ?

[I'm Muslim]

To back up this view, Palazzi notes several striking and oft-neglected passages in the Qur'an. One of them (5:22-23) quotes Moses instructing the Jews to "enter the Holy Land (al-ard al-muqaddisa) which God has assigned unto you." Another verse (17:104) has God Himself making the same point: "We said to the Children of Israel: ‘Dwell securely in the Land.'" Qur'an 2:145 states that the Jews "would not follow your qibla; nor are you going to follow their qibla," indicating a recognition of the Temple Mount as the Jews' direction of prayer. "God himself is saying that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as Mecca is to Moslems," Palazzi concludes.


Thank you very much for the comment but when you write be sure of your sources .
Bibble was written after Moses 600 years.
but Quran is written immediately after the death of the greate prophet Mohammaed - Prayer upon him -

[I'm Muslim]

are you angry at israel becource of the conflict in gaza? or is it becource the Koran tells you to be ?

and does it have to be a jew that kills you in order for you to get all those virgins ?

Qura'an doesn't tell me to be angry , it tell me to be patient , happy and onset every time .
Imagine that someone fighting you to get you out from your home .
what will you do ?????????????????????
Please answer me .

[baggi]

I would be very upset, that was easy to answer..

now tell me.. imagine thousends of rockets raining in over your village indangering your house and kids.. trying to get you out of your home and in to the sea.. what will you do ?

[dayag]

Qura'an doesn't tell me to be angry , it tell me to be patient , happy and onset every time .
Imagine that someone fighting you to get you out from your home .
what will you do ?????????????????????
Please answer me .

Your analogy is wrong. It is our home too. We are not strangers nor foreigners here. There has never been a time over the past 3200 years when there weren't some Jews living in the Land.

We came back peacefully from 1882 to 1947 buying land and building up the country. If you guys hadn't tried to murder us all and throw us into the sea in 1948, there wouldn't be any problems today. 60 years of attacking us have gained you nothing.

Now there are millions of us and we have nuclear weapons. We aren't going anywhere! We can either make peace and both survive or we will eventually have a war so destructive that it will destroy the whole region (including Mecca and Medina). The choice is up to you.

[Mil]

Arabs suck big.... they produce nothing, create nothing, and accomplish nothing.... they bore me.

[kozzol]

I'm Muslim wrote

Imagine that someone fighting you to get you out from your home .
what will you do ?????????????????????
Please answer me .

I would do exactly what is being done now in Israel by the Israeli citizens, defend my right to live in my home by any means possible regardless of what my neighbours and others further afield thought.

[Rob]

Quran is written immediately after the death of the greate prophet Mohammaed

:unsure::unsure::unsure:

:rofl:

[KettleWhistle]

hhhhhhhhh , so strange and you should know that the problem between muslims and jews is greater than your jokes . It is the oldest war that has lasted for 60 years and jews conquering our country Palastine , I'm not from Palastine but It is my second country . I don't know why the people believe that Palastine is the land of jews ?????????
There has never been a country called "Palastine", or "Palestine" for that matter. Never. Your location says you're in "Makkah". So what does any of this got to do with you?

[Y. Shulamith]

If I'll be dead in Palastine that's so great
As muslims we don't be scared of death , every one will die .



That's very good; I am very glad that you arent afraid to die because Israel will be very happy to accomodate all of you Muzzies......:clap:

In fact, I hope all you Muzzies die a painful death and the sooner the better. I hope that all of you gormless, lazy, complaining, useless to any society thugs die a very swift death.

[Y. Shulamith]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL DISEASE! GREAT IDEA!

1.5 BILLION CRAZY FOOLS!
A CULT THAT MADE PEDOPHILIA A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE
a CULT THAT MADE MURDER A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE
A CULT THAT MADE INCEST A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE
A CULT THAT MADE RACISM A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE
A CULT THAT MADE COVERING WOMEN A RELGIOUS EXPERIENCE
A CULT THAT MADE LYING HOLY
A CULT THAT MADE PLAGUIRIZING THEIR HOLY RIGHT
" " SLAVERY "

[varian]

Thank you very much for the comment but when you write be sure of your sources .
Bibble was written after Moses 600 years.
but Quran is written immediately after the death of the greate prophet Mohammaed - Prayer upon him -

Surah 2:281 (thru 286) is considered the last revelation that Muhammad received (the Qur'an was not compiled chronologically). It only took me until Surah 2:246-252, in 'The Cow' to realize that the Qur'an was grossly in error (e.g. not the innerrant word of anybody or anything). I have found many other errors since then. Some of the practices or traditions surrounding the Hajj find their beginnings in Pre-Islamic Arabian paganism, not to mention the black meteor stone and the Kaaba itself. Islamic jihad along with its murderous trappings is nothing more than a neo-Satanism repackaged as a religion. Many of the moderate Muslims would like to divorce themselves from this kind of evil masquerading as true Islam, but to many outside observers, the kind of murderous hatred that you threaten is the true main stream Islam. Your god allah, just represents a rehashed evil molded around the old pagan concept of Hubal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal

A much greater prophet than Muhammad issued this warning that applies to all of Islam:

Isaiah
Chapter 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that change darkness into light, and light into darkness; that change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah5.html

This verse describes Islam to a tee!!!
Woe unto Islam, because it calls evil good, and good evil!!!
Woe unto Islam, because it changes darkness into light, and light into darkness!!!
Woe unto Islam, because it changes bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter!!!
Woe unto all shahids, their murders know no bounds, but their evil deeds are not hidden from HaShem!!!
Woe unto all jihadis, their evil aspirations and plan are known by Israel's, HaShem!!!
Woe unto the false god allah, HaShem fears not the false and perverted gods of men!!!
And finally woe unto the false prophet of Islam, Muhammad, for all his evil spoken against the Children of Israel, the apple of HaShem's eye.
On the day of judgement, Balaam, shall find more mercy than Muhammad, because Muhammad has lifted his head against HaShem!!!
In that day, none shall remain to mourn the passing of this great evil called Islam: peace and prosperity shall be enjoyed by all the Earth!!!

[I'm Muslim]

We came back peacefully from 1882 to 1947 buying land and building up the country.
But some people were not agree to sell theire lands and homes , so you faught them .

Now there are millions of us and we have nuclear weapons.
I know that very well but you can't use it , because you live in the same middle east , so you can keep your weapon . Mecca ????????? wrong spelling
it is Makkah . Read this story : Before 1483 some called ( Ibra'hah ) tried to destroy Makkah but the Allah protected his favorite city .

[dayag]

.
But some people were not agree to sell theire lands and homes , so you faught them .


I know that very well but you can't use it , because you live in the same middle east , so you can keep your weapon . Mecca ????????? wrong spelling
it is Makkah . Read this story : Before 1483 some called ( Ibra'hah ) tried to destroy Makkah but the Allah protected his favorite city .

That is not true. We didn't take any land by force from 1882 to 1947. And it was the Arabs who were the agressors in 1948.

In English it is commonly spelled Mecca.

I think there will be a nuclear war and I believe that it will be a Muslim country like Pakistan or Iran that starts it. You might want to read up on the Samson Option.

[Y. Shulamith]

Native Americans had to deal with a whole lot more problems that Muslims, in the whole spectrum of things, and you don't see Native Americans behaving like Apes in the Desert with guns, rockets, mortars, and more ammunition than food for their brethren. Why doesn't Hamas build universities and hospitals? Why doesn't Hamas promote peace and well being for their brethren. Why doesn't Hamas act with courage and dignity? Why, because they are psychologically a bunch of sociopaths who lack a conscience, that's why.

Arabs and Muslims alike should be ashamed of how they behave, what their motives are, who they use as shields, their craven cowardness, their crazy ideas, their nutty, devious and despicably callous and aggressive and idioic religion, their mentally unstable thinking and their hideous ways of life.

[varian]

.
...
[COLOR="red"][SIZE="3"]I know that very well but you can't use it , because you live in the same middle east ...

Unfortunately for the Satanic hordes of Islam, Israel may just have and employ the Neutron Bomb. Doom on Israel's enemies. It can be used without contaminating the whole ME.

"Tactical neutron bombs are primarily intended to kill soldiers who are protected by armor. Armored vehicles are very resistant to blast and heat produced by nuclear weapons, but steel armor can reduce neutron radiation only by a modest amount so the lethal range from neutrons greatly exceeds that of other weapon effects. The lethal range for tactical neutron bombs can exceed the lethal range for blast and heat even for unprotected troops. Armor can absorb neutrons and neutron energy, thus reducing the neutron radiation to which the tank crew is exposed, but this offset to some extent by the fact that armor can also react harmfully with neutrons. Alloy steels for example can develop induced radioactivity that remains dangerous for some time. When fast neutrons are slowed down, the energy lost can show up as x-rays. Some types of armor, like that of the M-1 tank, employ depleted uranium which can undergo fast fission, generating additional neutrons and becoming radioactive. Special neutron absorbing armor techniques have also been developed, such as armors containing boronated plastics and the use of vehicle fuel as a shield."

reference: http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Outlaws/faq1

"Also called ENHANCED RADIATION WARHEAD, specialized type of small thermonuclear weapon that produces minimal blast and heat but which releases large amounts of lethal radiation. The neutron bomb delivers blast and heat effects that are confined to an area of only a few hundred yards in radius. But within a somewhat larger area it throws off a massive wave of neutron and gamma radiation, which can penetrate armour or several feet of earth. This radiation is extremely destructive to living tissue. Because of its short-range destructiveness and the absence of long-range effect, the neutron bomb would be highly effective against tank and infantry formations on the battlefield but would not endanger cities or other population centres only a few miles away. It can be carried in a Lance missile or delivered by an 8-inch (200-millimetre) howitzer, or possibly by attack aircraft.

In strategic terms, the neutron bomb has a theoretical deterrent effect: discouraging an armoured ground assault by arousing the fear of neutron bomb counterattack. The bomb would disable enemy tank crews in minutes, and those exposed would die within days. U.S. production of the bomb was postponed in 1978 and resumed in 1981."

reference: http://www.britannica.com/seo/n/neutron-bomb/

http://www.manuelsweb.com/neutronbomb.htm

Ezekiel
Chapter 38

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will cause to rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many peoples that are with him, an overflowing shower, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Ezekiel38.html

Ezekiel
Chapter 39

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may cleanse the land.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Ezekiel39.html

After the Islamic hordes attack; Israel will be happy to find a place to bury their bones. It will take approximately seven months!!!

[dayag]

From 1945 through 1961 United States conducted hundreds of atmospheric nuclear tests. This idea that nuclear weapons cannot be used is nonsense.

[pizza4theidf]

That's very good; I am very glad that you arent afraid to die because Israel will be very happy to accomodate all of you Muzzies......:clap:

In fact, I hope all you Muzzies die a painful death and the sooner the better. I hope that all of you gormless, lazy, complaining, useless to any society thugs die a very swift death.

Hear hear! Muslims are basically the world's misfortune, aren't they? If Islam didn't exist, there wouldn't be any problems in the world, because that's basically what's causing all the trouble - the credit crunch, everything. It's all because of Muslims, and possibly a few others, but mostly them.

[bararallu]

Hear hear! Muslims are basically the world's misfortune, aren't they?

The problems in the ME existed before Islam, the religion did codify some cultural nastiness and retained it for a much longer period of time than it probably would have existed otherwise. It also minimized some horrible things as well. The religion or rather the people behind it, unsuccessfully IMO, tried to impose a standard ethical system (problematic as is but internally consistent at least) that would supplant face saving culture e.g., vendetta. We see a lot of that at play in the Middle East and elsewhere as well. To isolate just the religion is a mistake, the ethnic, tribal, economic and political factors, over time, are major contributors to the mess of Hamas uber ales.

[pizza4theidf]

Yeah, true - Islam isn't like that everywhere - especially not in Kosovo and places like that.

[bararallu]

Yeah, true - Islam isn't like that everywhere - especially not in Kosovo and places like that.

You feed it Selafi programing it will be though eventually. Every time you get into a car and drive you are enabling radicalism in the world. Thats the bottom line.

[Y. Shulamith]

Jerusalem is placed at a strategic part of the world....access to Europe, Asia and Africa were only accessible via the corridor where Israel/Jerusalem stands. That is the origin, I believe, of the incessant fighting over the area.

Now that there are other ways to get from Europe, Africa and Asia, other than a land route, one would think that the fighting would have stopped, but this just doesn't seem possible, yet.

Someday soon, hopefully, there will be peace in this ravaged land.

[Y. Shulamith]

Jerusalem Corridor


http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/israel/map/m1124107/jerusalem_corridor.html

[dayag]

Jerusalem Corridor


http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/israel/map/m1124107/jerusalem_corridor.html

The "Jerusalem Corridor" refers to the land to the west of Jerusalem that links it to the rest of the country. In 1948, Jerusalem was under siege. If you drive from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem you can see the remains of armored vehicles that were destroyed trying to bring supplies to the city. If we hadn't been able to capture that corridor, Jerusalem would have fallen to the Jordanians.

If you get a chance, check out "Cast a Giant Shadow" starring Kirk Douglas. It covers this struggle.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060218/

[I'm Muslim]

Varian have you watched an American action movie before writing your reply ???????????
Be more logical and simple when you write .
Do you know that muslims will fight on horses and swords .
Do you know that some silent stones will help us some day .
It is very soon , so you can run away if you are scared of some miracles .

[bararallu]

Do you know that muslims will fight on horses and swords .


Raiding caravans and extorting money from dhimmis is not really in the same universe most would consider "fighting."

[Mosche]

Do you know that some silent stones will help us some day .
It is very soon , so you can run away if you are scared of some miracles .

What is it with Muslims and rocks?

[bararallu]

What is it with Muslims and rocks?

Well the Fakistinians like to throw them at people, but that maybe a regional abortion, like shoes are in Iraq.

[Mosche]

Well the Fakistinians like to throw them at people, but that maybe a regional abortion, like shoes are in Iraq.

Yeah, but they even worship them--Mecca "Stone", the Dome of the "Rock"--and now they wanna hear rocks talk.

[varian]

Varian have you watched an American action movie before writing your reply ???????????
Be more logical and simple when you write .
Do you know that muslims will fight on horses and swords .
Do you know that some silent stones will help us some day .
It is very soon , so you can run away if you are scared of some miracles .


I see that you believe in that flawed book of fables called the Qur'an given by that great servant of Satan, Muhammad. Now that is a miracle, but not a very good one. The fables of the rocks crying out about Jews hiding behind them is just plain racism; but when has racism ever bothered a Muslim like you??? Israel's G-D has stated that all wankers like you and all your jihadi hosebrained brothers will be cursed because you are cursing the Jews, so the hooks will be set in your jaws and if you are dumb enough to attempt to destroy Israel, you and your ilk will die on the mountains of Israel. You and your ilk will die amongst the stones of the mountains of Israel. Who cares what the stones say to you when you are toast!!!

You believe your fairy tales and I'll believe mine. If anything, the last sixty years have shown the world the allah doesn't like Muslims. So why don't you just run along and emulate your punk prophet and become a pedophile like he was. Your grand mufti of 'Makkah' just gave the okay for 10 year olds to marry. So now it is a religious duty for all the whackos in Saudi Arabia to prey on prepubescent children. It's as close to a virgin that most of you will ever get close to both in this life and the next. So, knock yourself out, climb aboard your trusty steed, flail your sword, and head out for a certain demise on the 'mountains of Israel.' So, the world will see if there will be an Islamic miracle, or a miracle on behalf of Israel. Israel has nowhere to run, and neither do I. Hurry now!! The stones are calling to you!!!

[bararallu]

Yeah, but they even worship them--Mecca "Stone", the Dome of the "Rock"--and now they wanna hear rocks talk.

I'm of the opinion that it's actually none of our business what and really how they worship, it can be a wondering camel deity(and I'm sure it isn't for them) for all I care. Thats strictly their business IMO. When they point the business end of Kassam rocket in our direction and abuse Jews in their countries that is what we should focus on. If they use their religion to justify the abuses it becomes our business as well, but only insofar as it relates to the conflict. Do we really need to spend time on Islamic exogesis? Jewish people are far better of studying some Rashi and Rambam than looking at someone else's religion. Let me also remind you there is definitely some odd stuff that goes on in the Tanach, but thats our business as Jews not anyone else's.

[varian]

... Do we really need to spend time on Islamic exogesis? Jewish people are far better of studying some Rashi and Rambam than looking at someone else's religion. Let me also remind you there is definitely some odd stuff that goes on in the Tanach, and thats our business as Jews not anyone else's.

I apologize (remember I'm a goy who delights in Rashi, Rambam, et al.) for engaging this whack-job (and others like him), but I get tired of Muslims dumping their Islamic 'trash' on this forum while flagrantly attacking Jewish sources in order to emphasize their inane 'points.' I'll make a concerted effort from now on to stand down on this subject on the forum.
Sorry.
v

[kozzol]

I tend to be in agreement with both of you.

[bararallu]

I apologize (remember I'm a goy who delights in Rashi, Rambam, et al.) for engaging this whack-job (and others like him), but I get tired of Muslims dumping their Islamic 'trash' on this forum while flagrantly attacking Jewish sources in order to emphasize their inane 'points.' I'll make a concerted effort from now on to stand down on this subject on the forum.
Sorry.
v

Varian my post wasn't intended for you, it's intended first and foremost to Israelis and to a slightly lesser degree as Jews everywhere.

You can do your exegesis as you like. I personally don't think it's worth it for Jews to invest Jewish cultural capital into defaming another religion/sect/etc. We havent even done that collectively when it comes to Communism, which killed more Jews than the whole of Islamic nations on earth have done to us. Stupid? Perhaps, but civilizationaly we are (or IMO should be) in the business of building and fixing, not tarring down or disrupting. If you are compelled to point out how negative the tenants of Islam or unvirtuous a person Mohammed may have been, thats something wholly extra to what a Jew needs to be a Jew, or an Israeli needs to be an Israeli.

[Mosche]

I typically agree with your posts Bararallu--to a certain extent I even agree that we shouldn't spend a lot of energy replying to comments like the one made by Muslim above. However, I do think that if an individual goes into a forum and makes statements that are veiled threats--be they religious or otherwise--that individual ought to expect to be ostracized.

Now if said individual wishes open a religious discussion in the "religion" area, that's different--as long as said individual wishes to discuss religion, as opposed to making threats. I have the utmost respect for people who "walk the walk" of a pious life. When it comes to individuals who use religion as a weapon, however, I feel that they should expect that their weapon can and will be used against them. Similarly, if an individual tries to "scare me into conversion," I'm a bit offended, and will tend to react in an appropriate manner.

Just my 2 pennies. I wonder if Islamic forums would be equally "understanding"?

[Brody15]

I apologize (remember I'm a goy who delights in Rashi, Rambam, et al.) for engaging this whack-job (and others like him), but I get tired of Muslims dumping their Islamic 'trash' on this forum while flagrantly attacking Jewish sources in order to emphasize their inane 'points.' I'll make a concerted effort from now on to stand down on this subject on the forum.
Sorry.
v

By the way, thanks for sticking up for Jews. I mean that most sincerely. :)

[ece]

Peace plan step one: Give the Palestinians their land back.


To Arabs in this forum:

Who's land ??

How I see the the history (Without any reference to Bible, I don't need that for defending the right of Israel as a nation state)

For thousands of years territories are won and lost by wars. Everywhere. Nothing has changed.

It was territory of Ottoman Empire. Not of Arabs. There lived Arabs and JEWS.

Then the Turks lost.
Brits came in. So, it was Brits' territory.

None of the existing arabic states could be established (except Egypt, they, headed by an ottoman, a non-arab pasha, formerly fought and beaten Ottomans ) had not the Brits won the war. Unlike Balkan people, Greeks, Bulgars, Serbians, Arabs didn't fight their own wars.

The territories are given to Arabs and borders are drawn by western "imperialistists":)) "Imperialists" decided to give Jews also some territory. Well, this was their territory, they can do as they wish, it happened all the time, as with arab imperialists, with roman "imperialists", with ottoman "imperialists".

Then came partition plan. Arabs didn't accept. They began to fight.
They didn't accept state of Israel, approved by UN, too.

They fought and lost.

They didn't accept anything, they fought again and lost. Again and again.

What happens when they (arabs) win, for this to understand you have to look to the history.
You have to look to the history to understand what happens when jihad wins.


My forefathers, the Turks once ruled Central Asia. Then the Arabs came. What were they doing in Central Asia? Was this homeland of Arabs?

Turks fought Arabs for hunderd of years. Finally they lost, they were islamized. Uncountable amounts of turkish blood were spilled, turkish cities were destroyed, turks became slaves.

Then see what happened.
Abbasid khalifs needed to use turkish slaves to defend themselves:)) because the Turks could fight.

Turks began to fight in name of Islam for hundreds of years.

History is not fun.

I don't have any resentment against Arabs although maybe I should when I think what happened to my forefathers. But I accept the facts.

That the Turks gained so huge territories didn't help them in the end. They lost everything. Other nations which were more able , stronger appeared.

Like it or not, Israelis have a right to their land. They did as all the other nations in the history did. They won their land, they fought for it.

By rejecting partition plan, two state solution of UN, fighting and losing all wars, Arabs landed where they are now.

When I read Hamas charter, + reading history of Arab conquests, I see very clearly , one state solution means annihilation of jews (slaughter and becoming dhimmis, choose what you like)), you don't need to be clever , not even someone with an average IQ to understand this. So, insisting upon one state solution is a bad joke. "racism" when it means jewish state, is unfortunately the only option that jews can survive.

Arabs calling Jews "racist" is also joke, regarding the history of jihad. Were the Arabs peace-freak left liberals when they were forcibly converting whole nations? Were all this slaughter in Central Asia , beside elsewhere, a peace mission? Were dhimmitude "equality of nations"?

What are they doing now, playing the role of victims.

I can't imagine what would happen if Arabs had the military power of Israel and Israel were weak. A second Holocaust?? or relocation of all jews somewhere else?

I'm a muslim, I accept the facts, what happened then , I don't hate Arabs for what they did. History and human beings were cruel and still are. People try to conquer and defend their territories. That's what history is about.

Arabs and also some peace loving europeans don't seem to understand some basic facts. Nobody can demand from jews that they should accept conditions which would comprimise their safety. They are living in the middle of a sea of jew haters.

Either you have to win your wars or agree to accept Israel as a nation state with conditions Israel sees necessary for its survival.

And remember what you did to other nations when you were strong.

If arabs really want peace, they should start to think in non-religious categories. Thinking in religous categories means jihad and we all know well what it means.

[bararallu]

Thanks Ece, it's great to see other people able to crack a few books open and use human reasoning to sort out the situation.

[Yala]

To Arabs in this forum:

Who's land ??

How I see the the history (Without any reference to Bible, I don't need that for defending the right of Israel as a nation state)

For thousands of years territories are won and lost by wars. Everywhere. Nothing has changed.

It was territory of Ottoman Empire. Not of Arabs. There lived Arabs and JEWS.

Then the Turks lost.
Brits came in. So, it was Brits' territory.

None of the existing arabic states could be established (except Egypt, they, headed by an ottoman, a non-arab pasha, formerly fought and beaten Ottomans ) had not the Brits won the war. Unlike Balkan people, Greeks, Bulgars, Serbians, Arabs didn't fight their own wars.

The territories are given to Arabs and borders are drawn by western "imperialistists":)) "Imperialists" decided to give Jews also some territory. Well, this was their territory, they can do as they wish, it happened all the time, as with arab imperialists, with roman "imperialists", with ottoman "imperialists".

Then came partition plan. Arabs didn't accept. They began to fight.
They didn't accept state of Israel, approved by UN, too.

They fought and lost.

They didn't accept anything, they fought again and lost. Again and again.

What happens when they (arabs) win, for this to understand you have to look to the history.
You have to look to the history to understand what happens when jihad wins.


My forefathers, the Turks once ruled Central Asia. Then the Arabs came. What were they doing in Central Asia? Was this homeland of Arabs?

Turks fought Arabs for hunderd of years. Finally they lost, they were islamized. Uncountable amounts of turkish blood were spilled, turkish cities were destroyed, turks became slaves.

Then see what happened.
Abbasid khalifs needed to use turkish slaves to defend themselves:)) because the Turks could fight.

Turks began to fight in name of Islam for hundreds of years.

History is not fun.

I don't have any resentment against Arabs although maybe I should when I think what happened to my forefathers. But I accept the facts.

That the Turks gained so huge territories didn't help them in the end. They lost everything. Other nations which were more able , stronger appeared.

Like it or not, Israelis have a right to their land. They did as all the other nations in the history did. They won their land, they fought for it.

By rejecting partition plan, two state solution of UN, fighting and losing all wars, Arabs landed where they are now.

When I read Hamas charter, + reading history of Arab conquests, I see very clearly , one state solution means annihilation of jews (slaughter and becoming dhimmis, choose what you like)), you don't need to be clever , not even someone with an average IQ to understand this. So, insisting upon one state solution is a bad joke. "racism" when it means jewish state, is unfortunately the only option that jews can survive.

Arabs calling Jews "racist" is also joke, regarding the history of jihad. Were the Arabs peace-freak left liberals when they were forcibly converting whole nations? Were all this slaughter in Central Asia , beside elsewhere, a peace mission? Were dhimmitude "equality of nations"?

What are they doing now, playing the role of victims.

I can't imagine what would happen if Arabs had the military power of Israel and Israel were weak. A second Holocaust?? or relocation of all jews somewhere else?

I'm a muslim, I accept the facts, what happened then , I don't hate Arabs for what they did. History and human beings were cruel and still are. People try to conquer and defend their territories. That's what history is about.

Arabs and also some peace loving europeans don't seem to understand some basic facts. Nobody can demand from jews that they should accept conditions which would comprimise their safety. They are living in the middle of a sea of jew haters.

Either you have to win your wars or agree to accept Israel as a nation state with conditions Israel sees necessary for its survival.

And remember what you did to other nations when you were strong.

If arabs really want peace, they should start to think in non-religious categories. Thinking in religous categories means jihad and we all know well what it means.

Wow, perfectly stated.


What are they doing now, playing the role of victims

Threatening death and destruction in Arabic and crying in English and the left still doesn't get it or doesn't care.

[Manaia]

The Palestinians seem to have had their whole identity hijacked and defined by outside terrorist groups. I believe they need security first and re-education in the fundamentals of a decent society i.e. without being bombarded with messages of hate. They need a secure secular environment encouraging education and economic development. They need to be yanked out of this victim mentality.
This would have to be provided by an outside party not involved in Middle Eastern affairs.

[I'm Muslim]

The stones are calling to you
I'll find you behind one of them , Idon't know what do you believe in????????
Rockets that you won't find the enough energy to operate them ???????
F-16 it depends on oil that starts to become nothing ????????????
You should believe in strong thing ,yeah stronger than rockets and weapons
These weapons = 0
After some years

[I'm Muslim]

but I get tired of Muslims dumping their Islamic 'trash'
I enrolled this forum in order to find some people who respect the others not to be rod with them .
But if you want me to use your way I'll try .

[bararallu]

I enrolled this forum in order to find some people who respect the others not to be rod with them .
But if you want me to use your way I'll try .

Look, when you come to someone's house do you say hello, take your shoes off or do barge in screaming? Same rules apply here.

You have to be nice for people to be nice to you. We have members here from all over the ME, many Arabs and Muslims. Some can listen and talk like adults and some scream in Bold Red Ink. Who do you think we will respect and spend time communicating with. For a moment pretend how badly you feel about your Arab brothers and become your enemy for a second, they may feel as strong about their opinions as you. If you really want to understand why we are and how we are then sit back and listen for a time, we didn't go to your place in this instance....

[Brody15]

To Arabs in this forum:



The territories are given to Arabs and borders are drawn by western "imperialistists":)) "Imperialists" decided to give Jews also some territory. Well, this was their territory, they can do as they wish, it happened all the time, as with arab imperialists, with roman "imperialists", with ottoman "imperialists".



I think it's important to note that Jews had been coming to Palestine from the diaspora and buying up land and growing villages into towns, etc. And as I understand, they often had to pay premiums for the land. In a sense, they earned the land that was given to them.

[Manaia]

Also, as far as I know, there were Jews living in the area for centuries. There's also pretty good proof that Jews had traditionally lived in the area.