The Arab Problem

[I am David]

The Arab problem, this is not to be ignored. Currently Israel is comprised of about 81% Jews and about 18% Arabs, an already disturbingly large ratio of Jews to Arabs.

Now the problem arises as result of the birth rates, the Arab's birth rate being an increase of about 4%, which is huge, and a Jewish birth rate of about 1%, somewhat lower than average. This poses a huge problem, Israel could be, within the lifetime of the younger generation, no longer a Jewish majority, and within a few hundred years all traces of Judaism and Jews will be nothing but a memory for the most part in Israel.

This is FACT. This WILL happen, the Arab growth rate is much faster than the Jews', and they are already constitute almost 20% of Israel's population, a huge number.

This is not good, Israel will soon cease to be a Jewish state, even if the Arabs become wealthier and slow their reproduction rate, it will always be a bit higher than the Jews, and this is too difficult and timely to do.

So what do we do? This absolutly cannot happen. I want to hear some plans to civily and humanly get the Jews to be unquestionably the majority in Israel both now and in the future. Hopefully we can bring the Jewish majority up to at least 90%, if not 95%.

[Mr. Pumps]

Well I am david if there is ever a colony on the Moon, that would be a perfect place to send the Arabs. But we don't have that ....Shucks!.

[Mediocrates]

David Ricardo and Dr. Malthus -

We all assume hockeysticking. I suppose it's possible, but affluence seems to push birthrates in the other direction. It simply becomes too expensive to maintain a brood of seven + in the style to which....

Although I'll admit perhaps rational thought does not apply when it comes to trying to wipe out all the Jews of Israel.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Humainly....its possible...civily, nope. The ONLY way to assure Jewish population to stay the majority is to not allow any minority. Now, you can MENTALLY make someone "not Israeli", but thats not as big of a problem as, for example when there is 5 Arabs to every Jew. The Arabs get angry about something, and POOF there goes the Jewish state JUST because of sheer numbers. The Arabs have shown they aren't afraid to kill innocents before, why would they in the future? So many of them are pro-violence, what would stop them? They hate us, they have always been taught to hate us. The only real solution would be to not allow them to be citizens and reside in Israel borders. Since so many leftist Israelis have a strangle-hold on the government, the Palestinains are going to legally steal around HALF of Israels land. After they have their own state, Arabs should be BANNED from Israel, because we all know, Jews won't be allowed in Israel, and if they are because of Palestinain image conciousness, then ever Jew who goes through Israel wont make it out the other side... Tell me I'm wrong, because I don't like this solution, but it seems the most logical, and the most promising.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
David Ricardo and Dr. Malthus -

We all assume hockeysticking. I suppose it's possible, but affluence seems to push birthrates in the other direction. It simply becomes too expensive to maintain a brood of seven + in the style to which....

Although I'll admit perhaps rational thought does not apply when it comes to trying to wipe out all the Jews of Israel.

Palestinian prosperity has dropped significantly in the past couple years - a more or less conscious decision made when the collective decision to pursue the intifada starting in 2000 was first pursued. I don't see any sign that Arab prosperity in Israel (including the disputed territories) will increase in the immediate future. Thus, even if this equation of affluence=lower birth rate applies to this region (very questionable), it's not applicable now.

[I am David]

Well I'v thought of a way, a civil way, I think, that Israel could get rid of the Arabs. However it would take a lot money, around the billions. What I would do with enough money was to persuade the Arabs in Israel to move, I would build very nice and large apartments deep in Jordan or Lebanon with all the modern facilities and give that to them for free in order to persuade them move. Basically, use money and benifits to persuade the Arabs to move, by giveing them better homes somewhere else for free.

This of course would cost a lot of money and I'm sure it sounds stupid to you, but to tell you the truth I don't care how much money or how stupid it sounds, what's important is saving Israel. And Israel will be consumed if nothing is done.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by I am David
What I would do with enough money was to persuade the Arabs in Israel to move, I would build very nice and large apartments deep in Jordan or Lebanon with all the modern facilities and give that to them for free in order to persuade them move.

But Jordan and Lebanon emphatically do not want them, even if they originally came from there.

[Philip]

At one time a certain nation was talking in similar terms about "The Jewish Problem." How convenient that so many of the terms that you will need for your discussion have already been fleshed out.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by cerulean


But Jordan and Lebanon emphatically do not want them, even if they originally came from there.

Exactly right...The Palestinians tried to take over governments in Jordan and other surrounding countires. That is why NO ONE wants them(no one being Arab states) and when Israel says that they dont want them, were racist and are imposing apartheid. Yo cant win with these arabs. Some aren't bad for example Turkey, but thats 1 country. The odds are againt Israel, unfortunately.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Yo cant win with these arabs. Some aren't bad for example Turkey, but thats 1 country. The odds are againt Israel, unfortunately.

Turks aren't Arabs, as they have been quick to point out on this forum. Israel and Turkey are historically allies and they have recently signed a water deal.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020806/ap_wo_en_po/israel_turkey_water_4

I think Turkey is at risk for Islamic fundamentalism as well, however. As a single example, much of the society is secular, but apparently in the countryside, full cover for women is commonplace. I've read a few other articles that indicate to me that Turkey is vulnerable, although I believe the majority still want a secular state.

[Adversary2Arabs]

I was just reading that website you linked to and it said this:

"Israel's relationship with the large Islamic country is important to the Jewish state, especially amid 22 months of fighting with the Palestinians, which has caused tension in the Middle East and strained Israel's ties with Egypt and Jordan, with which it has signed peace treaties. "

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
As a single example, much of the society is secular, but apparently in the countryside, full cover for women is commonplace.It also commonplace in the Greek and parts of the Russian countryside, let alone among Orthodox Jews ;) . This is a poor indicator as such. Turkey has fought many interior battles between the traditionally religious and the secular parts of the society, not all of them entirely fair on both sides. It's a long and complicated story. Besides, it's not just secular vs. fundementalist Turks. There are many Muslims, both traditional and what can be described as "modernized" (the closest analogy is Liberal/Reform Judaism), who do not pose any serious security risks ;)

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
It also commonplace in the Greek and parts of the Russian countryside, let alone among Orthodox Jews ;) . This is a poor indicator as such. Turkey has fought many interior battles between the traditionally religious and the secular parts of the society, not all of them entirely fair on both sides. It's a long and complicated story. Besides, it's not just secular vs. fundementalist Turks. There are many Muslims, both traditional and what can be described as "modernized" (the closest analogy is Liberal/Reform Judaism), who do not pose any serious security risks ;)

I do see a cultural expectation of women wearing long skirts and covered hair as being more reasonable than a legal requirement of women wearing chadors. In Turkey in the countryside there is only a cultural expectation of wearing chadors, but the Islamic fundamentalists seeking power want to make this a legal requirement.

My objection is not to any individual's religious or cultural or fashion choices, though, but to the legal and political enforcement of any particular standard.

Islamic fundamentalism is more of a risk in Turkey than it is in Greece or the Russian countryside. (Greece and Russia have their own particular problems, of course.) The Turkish government is aware of the fundamentalist danger - http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/25/turkish.turmoil/index.html?related

It's not that the choice to be personally religious observant in terms of prayer, dress, and actions is itself dangerous. It's only when there is a desire to enforce these requirements on everyone else. Islamic fundamentalism and Islamist terrorism are intertwined - not the same, but they go together.

Americans are often criticized because they look too much at legal rights, rather than the actual cultural context. This is no doubt a valid argument when it comes to women in various situations around the world.

More on this when I finish reading Price of Honor (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0452274303).

[Teacake]

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Palestinian prosperity has dropped significantly in the past couple years - a more or less conscious decision made when the collective decision to pursue the intifada starting in 2000 was first pursued.

Another factor to this is that the wealthy pals moved to Europe and America.

As for the "right of return," this is a euphemism for Jordan, Lebonan, and Syria having the right to expel the pals from their state because they don't just don't want them, they want to get rid of all of the pals who are already there.

Anyhow, as for persuasion to leave Israel, they couldn't even be persuaded to take the deal Barak offered. How do you persuade a serial killer to stop killing when thats how they find pleasure? This group wants to claim all of Israel for theirs, this is their trohpy, how do you persuade people who are willing to use their children as bombs that any idea Israel offers should be considered? That is the Catch 22. Anything a Jew offers no matter how beneficial it is to a logiclly thinking person, is an insult and humilation to them.

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by I am David
The Arab problem, this is not to be ignored. Currently Israel is comprised of about 81% Jews and about 18% Arabs, an already disturbingly large ratio of Jews to Arabs.

[snip]

This is not good, Israel will soon cease to be a Jewish state, even if the Arabs become wealthier and slow their reproduction rate, it will always be a bit higher than the Jews, and this is too difficult and timely to do.


As a Jew living in Israel, I have to protest to the title you gave this thread.

However, I do think that you reaised two intresting issues:

Having a growing hostile population inside Israel
Haveing a Jewish state, and yet keeping it un-racist and Democratic


The first isue is more a short term one, while the 2nd is more alonger term one, as it will come into effect more over time, when the percentge of non-Jews in the population grows.

Having a growing hostile population inside Israel

I think the solution to this should have three elements:


Making sure that the non-Jewish population has equl right not just in paper but in practice.
Creating a proper immigration minsitry, with clear standrads about who can immigrate and how, instead of the difficult situation we have today
Help create a free, democratic Palsetinian state, that will be alongside Israel, with proper borders and proper security measures.
[/list=1]

Haveing a Jewish state, and yet keeping it un-racist and Democratic

It is muh harder for me to answer this one. On one hand, I recognise the need for a state as a refuuge place for Jews, even today. I have lived a few years outside Israel- both in France and in th USA, and I can see how important it is to have a Jewish state.

On the other hand, I want to live in a Democratic, multi-cultoal cuntry. I am worried about some clearly anti-democratic groups we have here in Israel.

The dilemma is, how to reconsile the two above.

My gut feeling would be that we need is:

[list]
A consitution
Every school that enjoys state founds, should have some sort of education for Democracy and about democracy
A separatio of religion and state, while keeping some baseline aspects of a Jewish country (e.g., having all kitchens in state run instetuttions kosher, having the official rest-days Jewish (like in some countries they are Christican) etc)


But most improtant- we need public debate on thes issues. To bad much of it is delayed "until we have pace" :-(

[Vic]

Originally posted by Teacake
Another factor to this is that the wealthy pals moved to Europe and America.Interesting. This means the loss of local employment opportunities for the Palestinians too, doesn't it, since many of the the wealthy Palestinians are/were probably businessmen? So it's not just the Israeli restrictions on Palestinian employees in Israeli companies.

Another thing that meets the eye is that all European clampdowns on immigration don't seem to affect Palestinians. I don't have any proper data on this, just an overall impression. Is there smth. similar in the US?

The European situation is remarkable, b/c, among other things, the typical argument against immigration is that the better-educated and financially better-off non-(Western)Europeans are badly needed back home "to rebuild their countries and serve their people". Don't ask me why this doesn't apply to Palestinians.

Is there any data on the emigrating Palestinians (age, religion, income, education, occupation etc.)?

[elke]

On the other hand, I want to live in a Democratic, multi-cultoal cuntry. I am worried about some clearly anti-democratic groups we have here in Israel.

Just how powerful are these groups? How likely are they to hold sway over the general population (or capable of a coup d'etat of some sort, where they take over the government)?

[ayesha]

Originally posted by elke


Just how powerful are these groups? How likely are they to hold sway over the general population (or capable of a coup d'etat of some sort, where they take over the government)?

Arabs arent united. never have been, this is why an arab lead coup of some sort against Israel is, quite frankly... laughable.
The Israeli gov is safe. it's the israeli & arab people i worry for. the PLO must be dismantled and its supporters kicked out.

[elke]

Originally posted by ayesha


Arabs arent united. never have been, this is why an arab lead coup of some sort against Israel is, quite frankly... laughable.
The Israeli gov is safe. it's the israeli & arab people i worry for. the PLO must be dismantled and its supporters kicked out.

I don't think that it was the Israeli Arabs Shoshannah was referring to...at least that's not how I understood it. :)

In every society, there are people who have not internalized the message that dissent is healthy. They strive for "unity", at the expense of the diversity of opinion - the very life-blood of the democratic process. Such people scare me also, just as they scare Shoshannah (sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, Shoshannah! :( ). The only hope is that they are not in a position to grab power...

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by elke


I don't think that it was the Israeli Arabs Shoshannah was referring to...at least that's not how I understood it.

No, I was not referring to them at all, at least not as a group.

The state of Israel is 54 years old. Many of the people living here are either emigrants, or children of emigrants. Many of them came from countries which are not democratic, and do not have democratic tradition (Iraq, former USSR, etc. etc. etc.).

Yes, democracy is tough in schools. However, although Israel is a democracy, there is a (not that small) segment of the population that hasn't internalized the democratic values, and their importance. Many of them yearn for "a strong leader that will fix everything"- and you can see it clearly in the support that certain right-wing groups give Sharon on one hand, and the mythical like proportions Rabin had in the left after he was assassinated.

Also, there are some groups (like certain ultra orthodox groups), that participate in the democratic game, but do not see democracy as a value, but just as a convenient tool. These groups can be quite quick to try and pass non (and anti) democratic legislation.

These trends, combined with the psychological warfare from the PA (since terror is, after all, psychological warfare. Many more Israelis died last year in auto accidents then in terror attacks), can lead together to an undemocratic shift in the Israeli societies, where the Arab citizens will be the first to suffer from (and they are already, to some extent).

Apart from my general sympathy to the Palestinian "man in the street", the above, together with my recognition of the general damage to the Israeli society done by controlling another people, is one of my main reasons that I think we should leave (at least most) of the west bank and Gaza.

However, Israel's security is still the highest priority. I do not think that the green line is "sacred", and I do not trust the current Palestinian leadership. I do not think that a withdrawal to the 67 line at this point in time will automatically bring security or stability to the region, so I end up frustrated. The situation should not continue the way it is now, but I do not know of a way to fix it. I know (or at least hope), we will end up with two states- Palestinian and Israeli, side by side. But I do not know how to get there, while preserving our security.

[elke]

I am glad that it seems that I haven't misinterpreted your opinion, Shoshannah. :) I just want to mention something regarding the FSU emigres, being one myself:

we are quite capable of appreciating the democratic process, after getting used to it. I understand how you feel, and realize that some of the Russian emigres have not behaved appropriately. However, there are many who are trying to fit into the democratic society, and just need some time and information before they are able to carry out their responsibilities. On behalf of these people, who include much of my family, please be patient with them! :)

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by elke

we are quite capable of appreciating the democratic process, after getting used to it. I understand how you feel, and realize that some of the Russian emigres have not behaved appropriately. However, there are many who are trying to fit into the democratic society, and just need some time and information before they are able to carry out their responsibilities. On behalf of these people, who include much of my family, please be patient with them! :) [/B]

Yep.
I do think that this will be less and less of a problem over time (and as I noted in my original post, education is one of he keys), and that most of the emigrents are not "anti-democratic" by any means.

The trick is, to make sure that until then, the anti-democratic groups would not have enugh power to do real damage.

[elke]

Originally posted by shoshannah


Yep.
I do think that this will be less and less of a problem over time (and as I noted in my original post, education is one of he keys), and that most of the emigrents are not "anti-democratic" by any means.

The trick is, to make sure that until then, the anti-democratic groups would not have enugh power to do real damage.

I agree. And thank you for your patience and understanding! :) :cool:

[ayesha]

I do beg your pardon. I misread

[Mr. Pumps]

I love military action and support it, but I have a chill at the 57 Islamic nations, are we creating the biggest possible showdown agianst Muslims since the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.

At that time 230 warships of the Spanish, Maltese, Venetians sunk the larger Turkish fleet that wanted to convert all Christians. Thankfully, the Christians won and drove the Muslims into the Sea. It a showdown is near why have a cancer inside, EVERY EUROPEAN NATION SHOULD ASK THEMSELVES THAT AND ISRAEL INCLUDED.

I say if the U.S is going to attack Iraq, billions of dollars in weaponry is needed by Israel, because it would be caught in the Arab Muslim cauldron that would follow.

I have always wonders why there the Israel flag is blue and white like the Greek flag. Love live the white and blue cross and Star of David!

[Mr. Pumps]

If the Palestinians want a state , they should put resources toward improving knowledge and political thinking.

Why has'nt one Palestinian come forward and say "lets put resources toward schools, universities and develop a knowledge based economy to increase self-relience and attractivness of independence". They attack Israel as a excuse why their position is weak because for some unbelievable reason no one attempts to prepare for a worthwhile statehood. And WORHTWHILE is the key word here. Right now if there was a Palestine next to Israel it would would be a cardboard, hollow insignificant backwater mess.

If I was a member of a society relying on a foriegn army for stability, I would tell fellow citizens "Hey fellas, we have to increase our progress, knowledge and infastucture vastlty to modern levels to achieve a better position and a viable independence."

Instead of knowledge and advancement as a way to achieve a peaceful co-existence, the Palestinians have choosed savage violent and to maintain a backward economy and political system. So be it, statehood for the Palestinians is a long way off.

[e1400G]

I admit that I don't not know too much about the history of the Arab-Israeli problem, but it seems to me that, though perhaps more civilized, Isreal is being equally hateful and racist. As an American non-Jew, non-Muslim I have begun to question whether the United States should have ever gotten involved with the Middle East to begin with. I am fed up with this quagmire that we all seem to be stuck in. Do you think that this problem will ever be solved? Or will there never be peace on Earth until the Earth is in pieces? (-Tupac) How do you think the world would be if the United States stayed completely neutral and never got involved with anyone? Do you think that the US involvement may have just made things worse?

[Teacake]

The US got involved with the Saudis long before they did Israel.... its called the oil industry. America did all the drilling, supplied all the machinery and took care of all the other matters. The saudis supplied the oil. The best solution is to get off Arab oil completely and make a mad dash into alternative energies that would allow us to be self sufficient.

[Mediocrates]

The question is, better for whom? Better for them or us?

The US has always had a xenophobic streak, constantly weighing the options of pulling up the drawbridge and feeling safe by distance and oceans. Wilson had that problem, the Roaring 20's, right up to WW2 and the America First movement. We survived WW2 the only untrammled superpower a little braver until the political failure of Vietnam caused us to pull the damn covers over our heads again.

And foreign policy and military doctrine since then has largely been about not doing something. In one crucial way the urge to wait for UN and world opinion is partly a faint hope that someone will stop us and we won't have to do what we know we need to and are loathe to try. We cringe when other countries call us unilateralist bullies and Imperial Pax Americanus. But one thing is nearly inescapable; we are an Empire. We are the Empire. We spend more on weapons than the rest of the world combined. Even hobbled our economy is larger than any other. We have the reach and power and spread that Alexander, Marcus Aurelius, Ghengis Khan, Napolean and all the despots of the 20th Century could only dream about put together.

The only meaningful question to answer then is, is that necessarily bad?

What is our role in the world to be in this light? We can't avoid our role and we can't deny it or ignore it. So we have to decide what it is what good or evil it can serve. The US cannot remain on the sidelines and think that if we leave the world alone then bad things won't happen and the world won't hold us responsible. They do already and they will. The point is, how can we shape that to our own benefit, the benefit of our strategic goals and the goals of our allies.

We could I suppose become the masters of benign neglect. As the old Chinese aphorism goes "Heaven is high and the Emperor is far away." But what does that serve in the end? Those problems will still be there for us to clean up. Those countries will still be poised on the edge, or worse, they will be past it. Except we will be reactive and our options will be self limiting. So in the end it makes more sense for an Empire to act like one, even reluctantly.

[Mehmet III]

"It is better for the empire to act like an empire."

Better for the empire, not necessarily for the world.

[NewsGuy]

Beautifully written, Mediocrates. A pleasure to read. And... A perfect candidate for our Resources section (and www.NewAmericanVoter.com). :)


Originally posted by Mediocrates
The only meaningful question to answer then is, is that necessarily bad?

No, it's not necessarily bad if we can successfully fight the Evil Axis Plus, and win a decisive victory.

Fighting Evil has become an old-fashioned concept, frowned upon by the ivory-tower, holier-than-thou digerati and their Leftocrat allies. Yet, the vacant ruins of Ground Zero sprawl for blocks as ghostly reminders that Evil is very much alive and well, and in dire need of being defeated in today's world.

So who will face the Evil of radical Islam? Certainly not Europe, China or Russia, all of whom have greedily sunk into the role of the Islamists' client-vendor slaves.

No, there is no one out there but the U.S. with the ways and means, and moral backbone, to deal with the global threat and devastation of extremist Islam, extremist Leftists and neo-fascists.

If we are to be branded as Imperialists, so be it. I'd rather be an Imperialist for the cause of Pax Americana than to be regarded by history as the great nation that was annihilated by a ragtag bunch of primitive Islamists.

Remember, the Roman Empire lost its moral compass and was gnawed to death by barbarians at the gate, plunging the world into the Dark Ages for centuries. This time, we have plenty of warning to take appropriate aggressive action to avoid a similar fate.

As for the Europeans, I am sure that they will fall in line with the U.S., not out of a sense of morality or sudden benevolence, but out of sheer terror. When they watch slo-mo replays of places like the Colosseum, the Eiffel Tower or Big Ben being blown to bits by Quran-clutching Islamic Wahabees. Then the Europeans, too, will beg for a piece of Pax Americana.

[daood]

Really, If the arabs want the Land of Israel, all they need to do is go along with a new peace process. Wait 50 or so years, the Jews will assimilate around the world, the Arab population with grow tenfold - and wala - they will have the power and numbers to do anything they want!

[Mediocrates]

Wait 50 years and we will all be speaking Mandarin and Hindi. Except the Jews will accept it and learn it. The Arabs will go to war with it and fail.

[zionist]

Originally posted by e1400G
I admit that I don't not know too much about the history of the Arab-Israeli problem, but it seems to me that, though perhaps more civilized, Isreal is being equally hateful and racist. As an American non-Jew, non-Muslim I have begun to question whether the United States should have ever gotten involved with the Middle East to begin with. I am fed up with this quagmire that we all seem to be stuck in. Do you think that this problem will ever be solved? Or will there never be peace on Earth until the Earth is in pieces? (-Tupac) How do you think the world would be if the United States stayed completely neutral and never got involved with anyone? Do you think that the US involvement may have just made things worse?

I just looooooove people who comment on a subject they claim they know nothing about. The Arab-Israeli conflict is certainly available on the Net. Only it's important to research the subject and get the information from a non-biased source. If you go on Arabic sites, Israel is not even on the map. Israel simply does not exist.

I will say this again and again. Those of you who were never in Israel cannot begin to see the situation. Israel is about the size of Rhode Island. Any mistake in judgement will prove fatal. A tiny country surrounded on all 4 sides by hostile Muslim/Arab nations in the many millions. How dare anyone criticize Israeli defense against terrorism? Or are American lives more valuable than Jewish lives?

[Simon]

Wait 50 years and we will all be speaking Mandarin and Hindi. Except the Jews will accept it and learn it. The Arabs will go to war with it and fail. :D :D :D

[Wassaga]

Seems to me that unfortunetely the only possible solution would be to impose some sort of limits on the Arab birth rate or transfer
them from the country.
Racist ? Yes.
Cruel ? Yes.
But the only way to survive in the long run.
All the same all around the world people hate us Jews and will
continue to hate no matter what. So what difference does it make if we take such harsh measure for the sake of our SURVIVAL.
Such a tiny country as Israel surrounded by enemies has the right to defend herself.
Remember Holocaust happened not too long time ago and there are a lot of people around the world dreaming to repeat it.
Israel has to exist and be tough .This country has every possible right on toughness.
Israeli leftists don't realize that ultimately their slogans would lead to self -destruction and the second Holocaust.
Israel has to be united around the issue of the rapid Arab birth rates.This problem is really urgent and needs quick and effective solution.The real solution.Israel can not afford to be liberal about
this.
Long live strong armed Israel.!

[L@mplighterM]

The United States has already suffered at the hands of Islamic Fundamentalists many times. Technology being what it is the day will come when every two-bit dictator will have an intercontinental missile in the back yard.

Unless the US undertakes the job to annihilate each and every Muslim/Arab in the world nothing will change. A moment in time can’t be arrested freezing the present each and every day new Muslims will emerge into the world everyone being a potential Islamic Fundamentalist.

If not because of the terrorist attacks in Israel 9/11 should have been enough to start a worldwide crusade against Islamic Fundamentalism. It did not happen!

Of course NATO mobilized their forces and set off to destroy the Taliban and Al-Qaeda this has only been met with limited success. Meanwhile back at the farm the killing of unarmed Israeli citizens continue and continue and continue…

Whenever the IDF starts a serious assault against Radical Islamic terrorists the cry comes from Washington to back off. That’s no way to fight terrorism and it certainly isn’t an indication that the US is willing to wholeheartedly fight terrorism. Sharon is but Bush isn’t!

I don’t think there’s more than one world leader that’s clued in to the dangers of Islamic fanatics.. Sharon knows because he has faced them in battle and political office for many years but the world is shackling him in his quest.

The US can glaze Iraq turning the whole country into a sandy ice rink and it will certainly eliminate its ability to develop weapons of mass destruction. What comes next? Iran? France? Germany? Whatever what is done to fight Islamic Fundamentalism it isn’t going to be everlasting.

Fighting Islamic Fundamentalism has to be done from within. In the US, Britain, Scandinavia, Holland, Russia, …

While it’s being fought from internally it must also be fought externally there has to be two fronts and the quest has to be concerned effort.

If the US packed up and left Afghanistan today within a year it would be embroiled in a bitter civil war. Killing and fighting is the lifestyle of the people in that country.

[zionist]

Originally posted by Wassaga
Seems to me that unfortunetely the only possible solution would be to impose some sort of limits on the Arab birth rate or transfer
them from the country.
Racist ? Yes.
Cruel ? Yes.
But the only way to survive in the long run.
All the same all around the world people hate us Jews and will
continue to hate no matter what. So what difference does it make if we take such harsh measure for the sake of our SURVIVAL.
Such a tiny country as Israel surrounded by enemies has the right to defend herself.
Remember Holocaust happened not too long time ago and there are a lot of people around the world dreaming to repeat it.
Israel has to exist and be tough .This country has every possible right on toughness.
Israeli leftists don't realize that ultimately their slogans would lead to self -destruction and the second Holocaust.
Israel has to be united around the issue of the rapid Arab birth rates.This problem is really urgent and needs quick and effective solution.The real solution.Israel can not afford to be liberal about
this.
Long live strong armed Israel.!

Amen to that! The mistake liberal so-called intellectual Jews make is believing that the world will love them/us if we are good little boys and girls and bow to their will. Well history has proven this not to be true. The depiction of the "hook nosed" weak Jew in anti-Semitic literature is what non-Jews love and yet hate us for. The strong, powerful Israeli Jew is what we should be proud of.

I served in the Israeli army and I know the tremendous stress that we were under while serving. And yet the Israeli army (inspite of what the world says or thinks) is the most humane army in the world besides that of the United State. We were taught to try very hard to avoid civilian casualties, not to loot, rape, etc. I am not saying that Israeli's are perfect and do not posess hot heads, etc. But for the most part Israeli soldiers are just trying to do a job defending a tiny, tiny country under siege.

[Mr. Pumps]

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/lepanto.htm

Do not think for a second the West will not defend itself in a similar manner the next time.