the path of destruction

[magnin]

I am personally very pessimistic about Israel. I am a French jew (actually, half-jew) and am seeing the israelis slide into a suicidal colonial, self-destructive mentality.

When I look at the situation, I cannot but help to think that Israel is having its Algerian War.
Like France in Algeria, Israel cannot win. Sooner or later, it will have to admit that colonization leads nowhere - only to more blood and self-destruction of its society.

I am also heavily disappointed by a people who, after seeing their prime minister (Rabin) murdered, elected the very men (the Likud) who encouraged this murder. The israelis have now elected a right-wing government led by Mr Sharon, a known war criminal.

It is important that the israelis realize that they are gradually being hated, not only in the arab world, but in almost the whole world outside the United States.

I am pessimistic because we are entering an age where many islamic nations will possess the atom bomb. As we have seen with Al-Quaida, the violence and despair engineered by the occupation lead to irrational and fanatical acts. If Israel does not revert its current policy, its future will probably be gloomy.

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by magnin
When I look at the situation, I cannot but help to think that Israel is having its Algerian War.
Like France in Algeria, Israel cannot win. Sooner or later, it will have to admit that colonization leads nowhere - only to more blood and self-destruction of its society.

I understand that you're from France, which is mostly an Arab country situated in Europe, so I understand where your mistaken point of view comes from.

But with all due respect you are completely wrong to make that comparison between Algeria and Israel.

France went a half a world away to try to brutally colonize Algeria for no other reason than pure greed and trying to grab power.

On the other hand, Israel is fighting for its life against Arab murderers who butcher Jewish women and children for no other reason than their victim's religion.

As for colonization, I also need to remind you that Israel has offered the Palestinians their own independent state on at least 3 occasions.

You may also recall that for several years now, the palestinians already have complete autonomy in more than 8 major cities and much of the land in between. They build their own cities and govern their own people for many years now.

So your reference to "colonizing" is completely mistaken.

The only thing preventing peace in Israel is that, like in the rest of the world, radical Muslims routinely try to murder the non-muslims around them. Just like they do in Malaysia, in Kashmir, in Lebanon, in the U.S., and in Israel.

[aid]

It is amazing how far anti-Israeli propaganda has gone in Europe - especially in France and Belgium.

And it is remarkable how everyone is fighting the last war: in the US it has been Vietnam (and still is), for France it's Algeria, for Israel it's Lebanon 1982.

[Negev]

Originally posted by aid
It is amazing how far anti-Israeli propaganda has gone in Europe - especially in France and Belgium.

And it is remarkable how everyone is fighting the last war: in the US it has been Vietnam (and still is), for France it's Algeria, for Israel it's Lebanon 1982.

Europe has always been historically a hotbed of anti-semitism. France is a cowardly country that has never had any integrity. They immediately folded when the Nazis marched in in WWII and have been semi-nazis and arabists ever since. Beautiful country. Ugly people.

The belgians are even a lower form of the French, which is pretty sad if you think about it.

[magnin]

Originally posted by aid
It is amazing how far anti-Israeli propaganda has gone in Europe - especially in France and Belgium.


As you can expect, many Europeans think just the same about israeli propaganda and America.

[aid]

Originally posted by magnin


As you can expect, many Europeans think just the same about israeli propaganda and America.

I am sorry, but they are wrong.

Just like the Arab, especially Egyptian media.

This is Pax Americana, not Pax Belgia.

[magnin]

Originally posted by Negev


Europe has always been historically a hotbed of anti-semitism. France is a cowardly country that has never had any integrity. They immediately folded when the Nazis marched in in WWII and have been semi-nazis and arabists ever since. Beautiful country. Ugly people.

The belgians are even a lower form of the French, which is pretty sad if you think about it.

Is it even possible to argue with people harboring such prejudice ? You talk of nazism, and then utter words of a clearly racist and odious nature.

Half of my mother's family was murdered by the nazis in 1943-44, which clearly does not make me like anti-semites, and extreme-right types of your ilk.

I hope you will one day realize that there is little difference between hatred of the arabs and anti-semitism.

[aid]

Originally posted by magnin
I am also heavily disappointed by a people who, after seeing their prime minister (Rabin) murdered, elected the very men (the Likud) who encouraged this murder.
It is important that the israelis realize that they are gradually being hated, not only in the arab world, but in almost the whole world outside the United States.



Well, because you are so disappointed in them, then the time perhaps has come for the people of Israel to commit a collective suicide in order to improve your well-being, and make themselves likable to the French and Belgian media.

And if the Israelis are hated, how does it differ from from European anti-Semitism of the past?

[Negev]

One thing I can say in favor of Magnin is that he (or she) has not just disappeared from this discussion when others disagreed with Magnin's point of view.

But I will still disagree with most of what magnin said... :D

[aid]

What is important is what magnine's posts reflect: namely rising anti-Semitism in Europe seemingly returning to the pre-WWII levels. The effect of the Shoah is wearing out rapidly.

This time around the situation can even be worse because of the creeping occupation of Europe by Arabs and Muslims.

Well, nothing is new under the sun...

[L@mplighterM]

*

[takeo]

I am a Jew from France as well, and i think israel has the right to exist, but not at the expence of the Palestinians. My grandfather came from Eastern Europe and saw there how the nazi's invaded poland, the Soviet-union, and wanted to make of this countries a sad property of German colonisation. He disappeared in a concentration camp because he was Jew, but many Poles, Gypsies and Russians and Ukrainians with him. The Germans used resistance against their occupation to expell whole populations and use violence against civilians.
Sadly enough, in the Jewish state, when i visited it, i was very disappointed to see some similarity between nazism and zionism. I can't believe that Israel conducts it's policy in the name of all jews, which is a lie, because many Jews outside israel don't agree with the Israeli policy, including me. i also can't believe that anti-zionism and anti-semitism on this forum are equalled. i'm not anti-zionist, as i believe that israel has a right to exist, ALONGSIDE an equal Palestinian state and with a palestinian population of refugees within its border(but not so many that they become the majority).B ut i can imagine that people really hate the policy of Israel, that is more than self-protection (for example the establishment of Jewish settelments has nothing to do with self-defense but everything with a racist, colonial expantion policy), and some people might even imagine that the whole Jewish idea of establishing a jewish homeland in a country that was already inhabited, was wrong, especially because it happened by chasing the original Palestinian population from its land or refusing to allow them back as they fled for the war.
This has absolutely nothing to do with anti-semitism, it is not because you resist against the oppression of the palestinian that you hate jews.
But i read more chocking things on this forum, things unfortunately i heard too often in israel. very racist remarks about the arabs and the palestinians for example, and the remark that jews are BETTER, more civilised than the Arabs (why not say "UeBERMENSCHEN"). And even chocking remarks about the Belgians("degenerated, arabised frensh, who are ugly people themselves" i bet if such remarks would have been made about jews you would be trown out of this forum and branded as an anti-semit,correctly) , because their minister dare to criticise israel for their continued occupation of the west-Bank and gaza and for their continued refusal to accept the demands of the international opinion.
on this forum it also became clear to me that many Israeli are not interested in peace, and don't want to stop the settlements and occupation, and even some people who advocate the total eviction of all Palestinians to Jordan, a kind of genocide. Of course, as a Jew, this kind of remarks give me the chills and make me remember my history books.
Also i read a lot of lies, for example that Arafat and the majority of Palestinins think that all Jews should be trown in the sea. This is no longer the stand of Arafat and only shared by 25% of palestinians (pretty low if you consider what the jews did to them). the Palestinians want a real state, genuine peace and the right to return, nothing more but nothing less either. For this they are ready to give the biggest part of their original land to Israel, a very big concession.
but 5 years of Oslo didn't bring them anything, except a few palestinian controlled refugee camps and cities, but completely sealed of by israeli highways and Israeli military posts. Netanyahu finally could completely destroy any "land for peace negociation" and israel was the big winner, no longer viewed by the world as the evil occupier, but at the same time still building new settlements and still occupiing and deniing UN-resolutions.
The final solution of barak, which offered the Palestinians only a state controlled by israeli military at all its borders, no return for the refugees, and no freedom to act as a real state, and finally the provocation of sharon provoked a new Intifadeh. Unfortunately frustrated palestinians who fought with stones against tanks, got mad and decided to kill innocent civilians.
But the key to peace is in the hands of israel, not in the hands of the powerless palestinians. arafat has made an end to violence recently, with the promise that a palestinian state will be a reality in the recent future. If Sharon chooses to ignore all palestinian demands, chooses to continue occupatio and ignoring the rights of an entire people at freedom without foreign occupation, (and somehow i'm afraid that's exactly what he will do, unless massive US pressure ), than I'm desperate for the future of the jewish homeland and the palestinians. the palestinians will not keep quiet if nothing happens, they live in terrific conditions and foreign occupation, and if they see no future in the peace-process, they will turn to violence again, this time for real, and more people will call for the destruction of israel, and more israeli will call for the genocide against palestinians and many will choose the side of war-criminals such as sharon(and fewer will join the peace-movement), and war and bloodshed will be the part of the region. :mad:

[aid]

Blah, blah, blah.

The usual cant of the Arab propaganda.

It is terrible to see how the French Jews (if indeed the author of the last message is Jewish) have succumbed to Arab and French anti-Semitism.

There is nothing to say on the substance of this message - so perverted and skewed the whole viewpoint is. I mean how are going to debate Al-Ahram, for example?

Fortunately, American and Russian Jews (I came to the US from Russia 21 years ago) are of totally different opinions than than some of the French Jews. You know what, my friends? We can do without you.

You can join the Arabs, convert to Islam, do whatever you want. Just leave us here alone.

[L@mplighterM]

Say takeo why dont you go fight on the side of Arafat and his renegades. I think that they have different history books in your necks of the woods.

I think you got your information from an Arab or some fiction book. By the way I dont even think that you're jewish.

Sorry, I dont have any more time to reply to your stupidity.

[Negev]

Well, it is always shocking to see the distorted point of view of the French, and many other Europeans for that matter. I find it very hard to believe that the person writing that message is Jewish, because what we heard is pure Arab propaganda.

I wonder if the extent of French Anti-semitism and Arab pressure is so great that even the Jews there feel that they need to take the Arab side to survive somehow.

So, I'm not even sure where to start responding to such outrageous comments.

It is as if Takeo has never understood that Israel offered the Palestinians a state of their own on several occasions, and that the Palestinians rejected the offers each time.

Takeo is apparently not aware that even with the so-called reduction of violence lately, that there have been no fewer than 170 Palestinian terrorist attacks in the last month alone (down from approx. 300). In this context, to say that making peace is only in Israel's hands doesn't really make sense.

And there is an unbelievable anger among the French that Ariel Sharon would dare demand that the Palestinians stop mass-murdering Jews for 7 days before moving forward with peace implementation.

In Europe, and especially in Anti-semitic France and Belgium, they have decided that Jews building houses on their own land is racist somehow. But interestingly enough, you never hear the Europeans calling Saudi policies which prohibit ownership of land by non-Muslems, racist. Nor do they ever criticize the Arabs for publishing daily blatant Anti-semitism in the Arab press, which is directly controlled by their corrupt governments. Nor do they criticise Arafat for ordering the murder of any Paletinian who sells land to Jews. Discrimination based on religion is never a problem, just so long as it is Arabs who are discriminating.

This is the world we live in, where so long as the victims are Jewish, it is always the victims' fault for fighting back. When innocent Jews just sitting and eating in a pizza shop are massacred by Arabs, it is the Jews' fault.

But, I want to say that the views voiced by Takeo are very popular views in Europe. It is a dose of reality to take into account very seriously.

Just as importantly, even though I don't like Takeo's views at all, I understand that he or she has the right to think this way and voice these opinions.

[aid]

Sure he has the right to say whatever he feels like.

It is useful, too: we are made aware of how dangerously anti-Semitic Europe is becoming once again. If it is true that Takeo, and the other poster French poster here are Jewish, this shows just how far this has gone.

It shows then that French Jewry is desperately trying to assimilate their views to the predominant ideology in their instinct of self-preservation, and how totally subsumed by that ideology they have become.

To be quite frank, I can think of no precedence with any of the other Jewish community anywhere of behaving like this. Well, perhaps German Jewry demonstrated somewhat similar pattern on the verge of the Nazi period... It does not sound good...

What is notable, too, is that both of the French posters have not responded to the replies to their posts. They don't seem to be too anxious to stand for their convictions.

[Negev]

Originally posted by aid

... both of the French posters have not responded to the replies to their posts. They don't seem to be too anxious to stand for their convictions.

Yes, I have noticed that too.

As soon as they are finished parroting their Arab propaganda... Poof... they've disappeared into thin air.

[takeo]

yes, i'm jewish and both my mother and father are jewish, i still speak(a bit) of Jiddisch, and i cherish my jewish identity (interesting that you call me anti-semitic, i think it shows the zionist right-wing propaganda is close to absurdity) . Interesting as well that you never reply to my arguments but allways come with the same arguments.
I know that innocent Israeli people have been murdered by Palestinian suicide bombers and i very much reject this crime, as I said in my last post as well. I think the people responsible for this should be punished and not allowed to move freely in Palestine. On the other hand I think that people fighting occupiing military force are no murderers, not even terrorists, but freedom fighters, as they fight for the freedom of their people, of their land. If France would be attacked by Germany I would fight to, go into the resistance and kill german soldiers if i can.
You say that "Jewish people don't have the right to build houses in their own land according to anti-semitic Frensh and belgians". Again you make racist remarks about the Frensh and belgians, and I hope the creators of this forum will not tolerate this any longer. Besides this, they don't build houses in their own land, welcome to reality THE WESTBANK AND GAZA DON'T BELONG TO ISRAEL. They have been conquered in the war israel launched in 1967, and this occupation has not been recognised by any country, not even by the US (it wouldn't surprise me if you are going to tell me now that the US is an anti-semitic country too). You really live in a dreamworld in which jews are always victims, have the right to make racist insults to other people and have the right to occupy land that belongs to other people. I'm sure you won't allow any Japanese or Greek to build his house in your yard, so the palestinians don't accept this either. Well, did you ever hear this: "my rights end where the rights of other people begin". Of course according to you I'm a jewish hamas-supporter and even the peace-movement in Israel are people payed by the Arab regimes to destroy israel. my God, you really need help!
And don't start about the corrupt Saoudi regime, etc. , yes, I know some bad things happen in Saoudi Arabia(and other Arab regimes, most of them supported by the US), but at least it is their country and their people, they are not colonising or occupiing land taken from other countries and people. (well, maibe with the exception of the Kurds, but at least that land is recognised as a part of Iraq and syria by the international community).
and what offers for a Palestinian state are you talking about? the one in the 40's? that was history, but I'm sure if the Israeli would make that offer today, it would be accepted by the Palestinians of today. the one offered by Barak? I already told you that that one was fake, as no single independant country can accept its borders and bifg parts of its territory and its water reserves to be controlled by a foreign power. besides, in that plan there was no good solution for Yerusalem nor for the refugee problem that would comply to the UN-resolutions. What was the thirth offer, can you help to refresh my mind????
i don't think that the UN is anti-Israel. Iraq invaded Kouweit and after some months it was faced by a huge military campaign and by an embargo, that even 10 years after the occupation stopped, is still in place. israel occupied many regions in 1967, but 35 years later still no embargo or war against Israel has been decided upon.
Unfortunately the right-wing in Israel has lost all reason, as well as the extremists on the Palestinian side. Both are blocking any discussion, but as long as Israel doesn't stop occupation (completely) and don't give the right to refugees, who want to live peacefully in Israel and comply to Israeli laws but no longer in refugee camps, to return, there won't be any peace for Israel, which is normal. That's why i say that Israel has the keys to peace, not the Palestinians. The Palestinians can't stop the occupation, only Israel can. Look at the palestinians already living in Israel, are they terrorists? NO, so far for your paranoid theory that all Palestinians are terrorists. They are terrorists because they live in bad conditions and occupation. Look at Libanon, compare the violence in Northern Israel before the withrawel to after the witdrawel, it diminished seriously, even in the middle of the new Intifadeh. why? Because Libanon is free now(the Syrians are not perceived as invadors, they will leave sonner or later and are wellcome), Libanese, not even Hesbollah, have no more reason to fight. One very wise decision of Sharon, to be repeated in westbank, Eastern yerusalem and gaza! If it was Sharon's decision, there would still be war in Libanon and mortar attacks on Kiriat Shmona.
yes, my opinion is common in Europe, because it is an obvious opinion, not common in Israel because of the one-sided distorted propaganda there. (in fact no better than in neighbouring Arab regimes), and also common for many Frensh Jews, but also many Russian Jews, I can tell you, because my family from father's side is originally from Russia and moved to Israel 5 years ago(not because of anti-semitism but because of the bad economic conditions in current Russia). Russian Jews in Israel feel very bad that some of them have been abused for political reasons and were forced to live in the occupied territories(if they wanted to immigrate to Israel and receive free housing), bringing their children in danger for some expantionist cause.
:rolleyes:

[takeo]

"One very wise decision of Sharon"
sorry, I mean Barak, of course!

[aid]

There is nothing to say here.

Usual ultra-leftist-Arab crap.

[aid]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]I am a Jew from France as well, and i think israel has the right to exist, but not at the expence of the Palestinians.</b>

"israel" has the right to exist? So very generous on your part. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Takeo.

Israel will probably need to relocate to the Moon to avoid being at expense of anyone anywhere.

<b>Sadly enough, in the Jewish state, when i visited it, i was very disappointed to see some similarity between nazism and zionism.</i>

Can you please elaborate on what it was that you saw in Israel bore "similarity" with Nazism. I, too, have been in Israel many times, and never saw anything but a totally free, democratic and liberal state, with more democracy than there is in the US for example.

<b>I can't believe that Israel conducts it's policy in the name of all jews, which is a lie, because many Jews outside israel don't agree with the Israeli policy, including me.</b>

No one does anything in your name. Israel conducts its policies in accordance with Israeli national interests. France and Belgium of course don't - those are known to conduct their policies against their national interests.

<b>i also can't believe that anti-zionism and anti-semitism on this forum are equalled. i'm not anti-zionist, as i believe that israel has a right to exist, ALONGSIDE an equal Palestinian state</b>

You are not anti-Zionist. Just a couple of sentences before you compared Zionism with Nazism. If so, then if you are not against Zionism, you are not against Nazism. What is an "equal" Pale state? Equal to Israel in population, economic development, living standards, military force, extent of democracy, etc? What is it exactly, beyond sloganeering?

<b> and with a palestinian population of refugees within its border(but not so many that they become the majority).</b>

Pali "refugees" in Israel? Even Uri Avnery and Gush Shalom are against that. This is shortest way to the destruction of Israel. Even Sari Nusseibi called for giving up that Arab demand.

<b>But i can imagine that people really hate the policy of Israel, that is more than self-protection (for example the establishment of Jewish settelments has nothing to do with self-defense but everything with a racist, colonial expantion policy),</b>

I can easily imagine it too. Monsieur Takeo, for example, hates the policy of Israel and compares it to Nazism. Nazism, racism, colonialism, what have you. Nazi Germany, colonial France, Britain and Belgium were never accused of as many crimes as tiny Israel. One might think that Israel is a huge country, with six billion of population and a billion of sq. kilometers of terrirtory.

<b>and some people might even imagine that the whole Jewish idea of establishing a jewish homeland in a country that was already inhabited, was wrong</b>

Yes, I would not be surprised if you think that way.

<b>This has absolutely nothing to do with anti-semitism, it is not because you resist against the oppression of the palestinian that you hate jews.</b>

No? You love Jews then.

<b>But i read more chocking things on this forum, things unfortunately i heard too often in israel. very racist remarks about the arabs and the palestinians for example, and the remark that jews are BETTER, more civilised than the Arabs (why not say "UeBERMENSCHEN"). And even chocking remarks about the Belgians("degenerated, arabised frensh, who are ugly people themselves" i bet if such remarks would have been made about jews you would be trown out of this forum and branded as an anti-semit,correctly) , because their minister dare to criticise israel for their continued occupation of the west-Bank and gaza and for their continued refusal to accept the demands of the international opinion.</b>

Well, I can't say anything good about Belgium that got rich having sucked all the blood from Congo. I can't say anything good about France and French leaders that have habitually been anti-Israel.
France is the classical colonialist power and should be the last to criticize anyone. France was a Nazi ally, too, despite all the French official propaganda. France sent her Jews to the ovens of Auschwitz. France is the last country I will listen to for advice.

<b>on this forum it also became clear to me that many Israeli are not interested in peace, and don't want to stop the settlements and occupation, and even some people who advocate the total eviction of all Palestinians to Jordan, a kind of genocide.</b>

On this forum it became clear to me that there are people who call themselves Jews and who are rabidly anti-Israel.

<b>Also i read a lot of lies, for example that Arafat and the majority of Palestinins think that all Jews should be trown in the sea. This is no longer the stand of Arafat and only shared by 25% of palestinians (pretty low if you consider what the jews did to them). the Palestinians want a real state, genuine peace and the right to return, nothing more but nothing less either. For this they are ready to give the biggest part of their original land to Israel, a very big concession.</b>

What concession? What do they own to concede? How do you know about all these figures you throw around? How do you know about the genuine plans and strategy of Palestinians? Faisal Husseini, for example, said before his death that Oslo was an Arab Trojan horse, and the original objective still stands: Palestine from the river to the sea. Faisal Husseini was the most moderate Palestinian. Where is the logic? Descartes is spinning in his grave. Frenchmen were always known for their logical reasoning. Now they are known for their anti-Israel thinking.

<b>but 5 years of Oslo didn't bring them anything, except a few palestinian controlled refugee camps and cities, but completely sealed of by israeli highways and Israeli military posts.</b>

Really? Arafat and his gang were in Tunis, thousands of kilometers away from Israel, and of all a sudeen they found themselves right beside Jerusalem, with territory, armed and well financed. Perfect arrangement for terrorism, whauch they exploted to the hilt.

<b> Netanyahu finally could completely destroy any "land for peace negociation" and israel was the big winner, no longer viewed by the world as the evil occupier, but at the same time still building new settlements and still occupiing and deniing UN-resolutions.</b>

Really? Netanyahu gave them Hebron and then 13% of the land (Wye agreement) - in reward for Arafat's terror.

<b>The final solution of barak, which offered the Palestinians only a state controlled by israeli military at all its borders, no return for the refugees, and no freedom to act as a real state,</b>

Clinton did not think so. Clinton blamed Arafat. But then, Clinton must be a Nazi, too. Onlt French and Belgian politicians are pure as the first snow in Laplandia and not Nazis.

<b> and finally the provocation of sharon provoked a new Intifadeh. Unfortunately frustrated palestinians who fought with stones against tanks, got mad and decided to kill innocent civilians.</b>

Oh. The devil made them kill children.


The devil also makes French Israel haters sputter all the nonsense they do. No one is seriously going to listen to them because their position is so blatantly skewed. Mad anti-Israel passions do not get anyone anywhere except war and terrorism.

[takeo]

left wing propaganda? Not really, apart from some left-wingers as Noam Chomsky (a jew by the way) many other people, even from the right wing, share that opinion. Mister Chirac is right-wing for example. Even Clinton expressed many times the nessecity of a palestinian state.

"israel" has the right to exist? So very generous on your part. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Takeo. "

Yes, it is generous because no many people who had no homeland before have such a right, for example the Gypsies. And it is generous because that land was already inhabited by another people. I think the jews had better choosen some part of Germany, as it were the Germans who made the jews suffering the most, not the Palestinians. But it were the Pals who got punished, not the Germans. But, of course, now its too late, many people are born in israel and Jews and Palestinians have to find a way to tolerate eachother. But I think jews should have a little more respect for the people whos land they took.





"Can you please elaborate on what it was that you saw in Israel bore "similarity" with Nazism. I, too, have been in Israel many times, and never saw anything but a totally free, democratic and liberal state, with more democracy than there is in the US for example. "

A totally free, democratic and liberal state? well, if i remember well, the most of palestinians, have no right to vote, have they?
They don't even have the right to move freely.
And how come that in such a democracy it is possible that the leader of the state has been shot by a (Jewish) fanatic? And that torture is allowed? and that people refusing military service get punished very harshly?(unlike in any European country), etc.
the similarity with nazism? people calling for the destruction of the palestinians as a people, a state centered around etnicity, and excluding people from other etnicity(not nationality but etnicity). a state that considers it has the right to expend and conquer other countries, expell other etnic groups, and considers that one etnic group has more rights than other etnic groups. this are all obvious similarities with nazism (i don't say that zionism is exactly the same as nazism, of course nazism is worse)





"No one does anything in your name. Israel conducts its policies in accordance with Israeli national interests. France and Belgium of course don't - those are known to conduct their policies against their national interests. "

many times i heard declare Israeli politicians that israel is the defender of all Jews around the world.



"You are not anti-Zionist. Just a couple of sentences before you compared Zionism with Nazism. If so, then if you are not against Zionism, you are not against Nazism. What is an "equal" Pale state? Equal to Israel in population, economic development, living standards, military force, extent of democracy, etc? What is it exactly, beyond sloganeering? "

No, not necessarily, that's up to the palestinians, not our business. what i mean with an equal state is a state that has the same international status and rights as other states represented in UN. So a state that can controll its own borders, safety,airspace and territory, has its own army and its own government, and can conclude independantly deals with other countries. (but of course they don't have the right to attack other countries)



"Pali "refugees" in Israel? Even Uri Avnery and Gush Shalom are against that. This is shortest way to the destruction of Israel. Even Sari Nusseibi called for giving up that Arab demand. "

Yes, I know its not very popular in Israel, but it is just something that will happen, if they like it or not. it is an international obligation of israel to take these people back that have been etnically cleansed, and pals will never ever quit this demand. It won't destroy Israel, Palestinians will be happy to live in peace, prosperity and have equal rights as the Jews. The ones not wishing to live amongst the jews will not go to Israel. The Palestinian minority in Israel isn't causing any harm, is it? And i think a stronger Palestinian minority will only help the Israeli and palestinians to stop the prejudices against eachother and live together. Of course it means as well that Arab becomes the official second language of Israel and Israel won't be any longer a state exclusively for jews.



"I can easily imagine it too. Monsieur Takeo, for example, hates the policy of Israel and compares it to Nazism. Nazism, racism, colonialism, what have you. Nazi Germany, colonial France, Britain and Belgium were never accused of as many crimes as tiny Israel. One might think that Israel is a huge country, with six billion of population and a billion of sq. kilometers of terrirtory. "

the people in France criticising Israel are usually the same people who strongly criticise(d) colonialism in Algeria and Africa. Both are very common by the way (colonisation and oppression of Arabs) and surely the same people who strongly condamned the vichy-regime. the people in France on the contrary defending Israel are situated near LePen and the Front National, these people defend Frensh colonialism and are the direct heirs of fascism and the vichy-regime in france. They have one thing in common with right-wing zionists: they hate Arabs.

"<b>and some people might even imagine that the whole Jewish idea of establishing a jewish homeland in a country that was already inhabited, was wrong</b>

Yes, I would not be surprised if you think that way. "

yes, i think so that the original idea was wrong, but i know that what has happened is irreversible, so now we have to accept Israel as people build their lifes in Israel and any expulsion of Jews from israel would be unhuman and undesirable. It is also sad that the indians were murdered by the yankees, but we can't just send back all Americans to Europe and Africa. the difference is that the indians are dead and the palestinians alife. So unless Sharon finally decides to kill all palestinians, they have to find a way to live together.

"<b>This has absolutely nothing to do with anti-semitism, it is not because you resist against the oppression of the palestinian that you hate jews.</b>

No? You love Jews then. "

yes I do (well, not ALL jews of course... )



"Well, I can't say anything good about Belgium that got rich having sucked all the blood from Congo. I can't say anything good about France and French leaders that have habitually been anti-Israel.
France is the classical colonialist power and should be the last to criticize anyone. France was a Nazi ally, too, despite all the French official propaganda. France sent her Jews to the ovens of Auschwitz. France is the last country I will listen to for advice. "

As i said above, the people attacking Israel are the same people attacking belgian and Frensh colonialism and crimes and collaboration with nazism. And the people defending Israel are usually the people who also defended colonialism and the right-wing who collaborated with the nazi's (or their heirs), in france Front national, in belgium Vlaams blok.

[takeo]

"On this forum it became clear to me that there are people who call themselves Jews and who are rabidly anti-Israel. "

wrong, not rabidly anti-Israel, but rabidly anti colonisation and occupation.



"What concession? What do they own to concede? How do you know about all these figures you throw around? How do you know about the genuine plans and strategy of Palestinians? Faisal Husseini, for example, said before his death that Oslo was an Arab Trojan horse, and the original objective still stands: Palestine from the river to the sea. Faisal Husseini was the most moderate Palestinian. Where is the logic? Descartes is spinning in his grave. Frenchmen were always known for their logical reasoning. Now they are known for their anti-Israel thinking. "

well, about the 25%, it was a poll conducted by the gappul in Palestinian territories. About Arafat, that is just historical facts, read your recent history. Still in the PA-declaration and the Fatah-declaration the recognision of Israel is a fact. Also the genuine peace and strategies of Fatah and PA have been expressed many times, in public and in private, not only to the world but as well to the own public. always they said, on the condition that there is concession from israel too. "Faisal Husseini was the most moderate Palestinian", bullshit! , he is one of the most radical elements not belonging to the religious extremists, he is not a moderate and his opinions have been criticised by Arafat. Frensh are still logically thinking, they see oppression, and they condamn it, no matter if it are Jews, or Arabs or other people or whoever is the oppressor. They don't make any destinction between "good" oppression or "bad" oppression (I mean the majority of Frensh, not all of course).


"Really? Arafat and his gang were in Tunis, thousands of kilometers away from Israel, and of all a sudeen they found themselves right beside Jerusalem, with territory, armed and well financed. Perfect arrangement for terrorism, whauch they exploted to the hilt. "

for Arafat it was an improovement, but not for the Palestinian people, not at least because this arrangment didn't lead to a final arrangment and end of occupation, only to some mediocre "in-between"-solution.



"Really? Netanyahu gave them Hebron and then 13% of the land (Wye agreement) - in reward for Arafat's terror. "

Yes, but that was it. According to oslo he should have given a lot more and a lot sooner. besides this 13% was for the most part completely useless ground and it only happened after huge American pressure (and Israel leaders know very well that without US-support and hi-tech weapons Israel is lost). He also build a lot of new settlements and extended existing ones, what was not allowed by the oslo-agreement.



"Clinton did not think so. Clinton blamed Arafat. But then, Clinton must be a Nazi, too. Onlt French and Belgian politicians are pure as the first snow in Laplandia and not Nazis. "

Clinton isn't a nazi, of course he is the leader of a world power and did some very bad decisions (like the bombing of Yugoslavia), and he has to reckon with a very powerfull zionist fraction within his own party, but even clinton condamned the policy of Netanyahu and called for the end of occupation.



"Oh. The devil made them kill children."

No, not the devil, but the feeling of revenge for the killing of their own children, husbands and wifes.


"The devil also makes French Israel haters sputter all the nonsense they do. No one is seriously going to listen to them because their position is so blatantly skewed. Mad anti-Israel passions do not get anyone anywhere except war and terrorism."

Strangely enough many people are listening, and in the whole world Israel is condamned for its policy, even by jews, and for sure not only in France or Belgium.
Mad anti-Palestinian passions do not get anyone anywhere except war and terrorism:D

[takeo]

"What concession? What do they own to concede? "
They can give Israel lasting peace and Israel's legitimacy (in the eyes of the Arab neighbours) to exist in the region, Israel can give them their rights back.
As long as the Palestinian question isn't settled, the future of Israel will look grim and unsure.

[aid]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]THE WESTBANK AND GAZA DON'T BELONG TO ISRAEL.</b>

Only a peace treaty will define what belongs to Israel and what to the possible future Palestinian State.

That state can never be on equla footing with Israel: it must be demilitarized and Israel must control its borders to prevent the militarization of the Pali State. All other options mean a future major war wih the Pali State in which only one of the sides will survive.

"You really live in a dreamworld in which jews are always victims, have the right to make racist insults to other people and have the right to occupy land that belongs to other people."

That applies to you. You have appointed yourself to be Israel' prosecutor, judge and jury, to sit in judgement of Israel, and you feel free to insult the Jewish people by calling them "Nazis", "racists", "colonialists", etc. That's racism and anti-Semitism.

"I'm sure you won't allow any Japanese or Greek to build his house in your yard, so the palestinians don't accept this either."

Yrs, but Israel is Jewish land, understand this? And the world has recognized, the Balfour Declaration did, the League of Nations did, the UN did, and all the states that recognize Israel. You don't recognize the right of Israel to its land - it's strictly your business. Don't tell me what I should or would do. Speak for yourself.

" Well, did you ever hear this: "my rights end where the rights of other people begin"."

Yes. The rights of the Arabs end where the right of the Jewish people begin. And the Jewish people have an inalieanble rigth to the land of Israel. Do you understnad this?

"Of course according to you I'm a jewish hamas-supporter and even the peace-movement in Israel are people payed by the Arab regimes to destroy israel. my God, you really need help!"

No, it's you who needs help. You are a Jewish (if you are in fact Jewish) Hamas supporter because most of your positions coincide with Hamas and Fatah for sure. You are of more radical views than Sari Nusseibe.

"And don't start about the corrupt Saoudi regime, etc. , yes, I know some bad things happen in Saoudi Arabia(and other Arab regimes, most of them supported by the US), but at least it is their country and their people"

Why not? Why are setting your rules to me? I am not about to follow them. "Some bad things". LOL, pathetic. Please take it into your head again that Israel's land is Jewish land and no one else's. Israel does not have to apologize to anyone. The land is rightfully Jewish, period.

"and what offers for a Palestinian state are you talking about? the the one offered by Barak? I already told you that that one was fake, as no single independant country can accept its borders and bifg parts of its territory and its water reserves to be controlled by a foreign power."

Fake? Clinton did not think so. Clinton is bad, you have an issue with the American people. They elected him, mon cher. You don't like Israel and the US? Go and join al-Qaeda, my friend. Bin Laden is waiting for you. You and him are perfect together.

"besides, in that plan there was no good solution for Yerusalem nor for the refugee problem that would comply to the UN-resolutions."

There are very few refugees today. They are all as a minimum 54 years old. In any event, the Palestinian State is for Palestinians and the Jewish State is for Jews. Understood?

"i don't think that the UN is anti-Israel. Iraq invaded Kouweit and after some months it was faced by a huge military campaign and by an embargo, that even 10 years after the occupation stopped, is still in place."

Oh, and the 1975 resolution "Zionism = Racism" was pro-Israel? Well, to you maybe. You are of the same views on Zionism. As for Iraq, the other Arab contries are dead scared by it, and this is why the sanctions are still in place, violated every day and ignored by the UN.

"israel occupied many regions in 1967, but 35 years later still no embargo or war against Israel has been decided upon."

Israel came into possession of the territories as a result of the Arab aggression. There has not been a peace treaty with Palis, and so Israel has right to be there.

"but as long as Israel doesn't stop occupation (completely) and don't give the right to refugees,"

Refugees is total bullshit, but again, no peace treaty, no withdrawal. That should be clear.

"The Palestinians can't stop the occupation, only Israel can."

The Arabs can stop their war against Israel. This is the key.

"Look at the palestinians already living in Israel, are they terrorists? NO, so far for your paranoid theory that all Palestinians are terrorists. They are terrorists because they live in bad conditions and occupation."

No, they are terrorists because they Israel exists. Israeli Palestinians rioted at the time when the current pogrom ("intifada") started. Many of them have been caught collaborating with terrorists. Suicide bombers have come from Israeli Arabs. Don't give me this BS, ok, le bon monsieur?

"Look at Libanon, compare the violence in Northern Israel before the withrawel to after the witdrawel,"

Thousands of Katyushas are aimed at Israel only looking for the right time to attack. Hezbollah's official goal is still the destruction of Israel.

"Because Libanon is free now(the Syrians are not perceived as invadors, they will leave sonner or later and are wellcome),"

Oh yes, Lebanon is free. LOL. Thank you for your humor, my friend. I was just as free in the Soviet Union. LOL. LOL. LOL.

"yes, my opinion is common in Europe, because it is an obvious opinion, not common in Israel because of the one-sided distorted propaganda there."

The hell with Europe. With France. With Belgium. The hell with Israel haters. The US is what counts. And if you don't like, go the neares brick wall and bang your head against it. Maybe that will cure your anti-Semitic hatred.

OK, pal?

[takeo]

Wow, you are really an extremist, rarely i have discussed with people with more extreme one-sided views as you.




"Only a peace treaty will define what belongs to Israel and what to the possible future Palestinian State. "

Yes, but untill this happens the Gaza, westbank and eastern yerusalem don't belong to Israel, and that is not only my opinion but as well the opinion of your friend Clinton and of the whole world except Israel.

"That state can never be on equla footing with Israel: it must be demilitarized and Israel must control its borders to prevent the militarization of the Pali State. All other options mean a future major war wih the Pali State in which only one of the sides will survive. "

well, in that case it's not a state but an Israeli protectorate and colony. For sure the Palestinians will not and shouldn't accept this. All other options are better than this, the best option is a really independant state that can establish normal state-to-state-relations with israel (or is it impossible for a genererated, inferior people to be on equal food with Israel according to you?)


"That applies to you. You have appointed yourself to be Israel' prosecutor, judge and jury, to sit in judgement of Israel, and you feel free to insult the Jewish people by calling them "Nazis", "racists", "colonialists", etc. That's racism and anti-Semitism. "

well, you have appointed yourself to be the judge,jury and prosecutor of the palestinians, and you and your hero sharon are totally alone with this, even bush wants that Arafat should be taken seriously as a partner in negociations with the goal of a palestinian state. i didn't insult Jewish people, i insulted the leaders of Israel, again you are confusing the policy of Israel with the fate of all Jews. yes, I'm an anti-semite, you moron, I would like to see my parents killed in Auschwitz and i hate myself. (by the way, especially for you aid, that's meant ironically)


"Yrs, but Israel is Jewish land, understand this? And the world has recognized, the Balfour Declaration did, the League of Nations did, the UN did, and all the states that recognize Israel. You don't recognize the right of Israel to its land - it's strictly your business. Don't tell me what I should or would do. Speak for yourself. "

I don't speak about Israel, I speak about the Gaza strip and the West-Bank, and that isn't Israel! (you said yourself nobody can decide what it is untill a peace-conference deals with this matter) The UN DIDN'T recognise this to be a part of Israel, nor did any other country.



"Yes. The rights of the Arabs end where the right of the Jewish people begin. And the Jewish people have an inalieanble rigth to the land of Israel. Do you understnad this? "

Yes , I understand this, i think Goebbels said something similar: the rights of all other people are less important than the right of the German people. This is really a typical totalitarian extreme right-wing distortion of the "my freedom stops where your freedom begins", which means that everyone has rights, but this rights can not go so far that it hurts the rights of other people.
Israel was inhabited by Palestinians before the jews came to colonise palestine and even golda meir said that Palestinians have equal rights to live in israel than Jews (i know it was more propaganda than reality, but anyway) . Your quote is nothing less than pure fascism. (Israel is ONLY for the Jews, Germany is ONLY for the Germans, etc.).

"No, it's you who needs help. You are a Jewish (if you are in fact Jewish) Hamas supporter because most of your positions coincide with Hamas and Fatah for sure. You are of more radical views than Sari Nusseibe. "

who is Sari Nusseibe? And i despise the methods used by Hamas, i said it before, but it doesn't fit in your picture so you decide to ignore it. Yes, i totally agree with Fatah, and you know what, the PLO has no less than 10 jews who are member of it.(not me, but if i lived in Israel or the occupied territories i would consider, i feel closer to Arafat than to those extremists who inhabit the settlements). Arafat fights for the freedom of his people against an oppressive system headed by people with the same extremist ideas as yours. I hope one day there will be a The Hague tribunal for crimes against humanity in israel/palestine, Sharon and Hamas-leaders will be the first to be accused.



"Why not? Why are setting your rules to me? I am not about to follow them. "Some bad things". LOL, pathetic. Please take it into your head again that Israel's land is Jewish land and no one else's. Israel does not have to apologize to anyone. The land is rightfully Jewish, period. "

Well, ok that are YOUR fascist rules, but the world thinks very different, and Palestinians will never accept this rules. you have to change this rules or make war for the rest of your life.

[takeo]

"Fake? Clinton did not think so. Clinton is bad, you have an issue with the American people. They elected him, mon cher. You don't like Israel and the US? Go and join al-Qaeda, my friend. Bin Laden is waiting for you. You and him are perfect together. "

yes, fake, Clinton didn't think so but Clinton doesn't have to live in a state which borders should be controlled by its worst ennemy. What would you say if Palestinians were allowed to controll all borders and ports and airports of Israel, would you agree? By the way, i think that you were AGAINST the plan of barak (for totally different reasons, you don't want to give ANYTHING to the palestinians except bloodshed)



"There are very few refugees today. They are all as a minimum 54 years old. In any event, the Palestinian State is for Palestinians and the Jewish State is for Jews. Understood? "

according to UN-consensus in 1996 there were more than 3 million refugees. The Palestinian state would be too small for all palestinian refugees, unless Israel give some parts of its own country to that state. These people were born in Israel and, according to the Geneva-conventions should have the righ to return to their homeland with their family. Not my rules, but international rules. they would still be a minority and thus no danger for Israel, which would have to transform itself from a one etnicity state into a multi-etnic state.



"Oh, and the 1975 resolution "Zionism = Racism" was pro-Israel? Well, to you maybe. You are of the same views on Zionism. As for Iraq, the other Arab contries are dead scared by it, and this is why the sanctions are still in place, violated every day and ignored by the UN. "

No, it was not pro-Israel, the UN is not pro- or contra any country, they just look if a country is following the international laws and rules. Israel does not, so israel is condamned. iraq did not, so Iraq was condamned (but a lot more severe than Israel).
if Israel can't be punished for occupation, why should Iraq have been punished? (they also had a lot of excuses to occupy kouweit, as has Israel)



"Israel came into possession of the territories as a result of the Arab aggression. There has not been a peace treaty with Palis, and so Israel has right to be there. "

No, in 1967 Israel started a war, and occupied territories. There has not been a peace-treaty because israel didn't want to give back the lands they conquered. (the same reason why there still isn't a peace-treaty with Syria)


"Refugees is total bullshit, but again, no peace treaty, no withdrawal. That should be clear. "

ok, but also: no peace-treaty without a withdrawal.



"The Arabs can stop their war against Israel. This is the key. "

They will stop the war when Israel want to negociate about total withdrawal within its internationally recognised borders. As long as they don't do this, there can't be peace. Occupation is a legitimate reason for war according to the Geneva-convention.



"No, they are terrorists because they Israel exists. Israeli Palestinians rioted at the time when the current pogrom ("intifada") started. Many of them have been caught collaborating with terrorists. Suicide bombers have come from Israeli Arabs. Don't give me this BS, ok, le bon monsieur? "

You should practise your Frensh. Of course they feel solidarity with their oppressed brothers, and they are still not treated as equal citizens of Israel(although a lot better than the Palestinians in the occupied territories) but as far as i know, i didn't hear of a single suicide bomber living as a citizen of Israel.



"Thousands of Katyushas are aimed at Israel only looking for the right time to attack. Hezbollah's official goal is still the destruction of Israel. "

maibe, but those Katyushas are not falling any more as before, are they? or do you denie this as well? And Hesbollah isn't attacking Israel anymore as before, is it? when is the right time to attack, if it wasn't during the hottest periods of the palestinian/israeli conflict some weeks ago?



"Oh yes, Lebanon is free. LOL. Thank you for your humor, my friend. I was just as free in the Soviet Union. LOL. LOL. LOL. "

It is free of Israeli oppression and of civil war, and believe me, for the most Libanese this is celebrated as a real improvement.



"The hell with Europe. With France. With Belgium. The hell with Israel haters. The US is what counts. And if you don't like, go the neares brick wall and bang your head against it. Maybe that will cure your anti-Semitic hatred. "

Well, europe can always decide to block any trade with Israel, in addition to an arab embargo, and believe me, that would REALLY hurt Israel, as Europe are their most important trade partners.
The us still defends Israel, true, that is why Israel still exists, but i shouldn't count on it too much. the support for Israel is really damaging the position of the US in the Middle east .
Now it will be a decisive moment in Israeli-uS relations. Arafat has decided to surpress all violence he can controll, and the uS now wants Sharon to engage in peace-talks with arafat and start where Barak left (the words of Colin Powell). I'm not so sure sharon is ready to do this, and you even see cracks in the right-wing israeli politics (president versus Sharon) . if he completely ignores all US-pressure, i think he is playing a dangerous game.
unless Israeli voters return to reason and elect meretz or a moderate Labour in power, I am very pessimistic about the future of Israel.

Another thing, i am critical to the policy of Israel (and the US) so i am an Al-Qaida sympatiser? You are really the personification of a simple mind

[takeo]

i think the US and Europe should continue to support Israel, but not unconditional support. Make clear to Sharon: negociate and obey the un-resolutions, or face sanctions and a total block on arms-sales. Within a month an independant Palestinian state, and mutual peace-treaty between israel and all its neighbours would be accomplished. In fact the real key is not in the hands of Israel (because everyone knows Sharon will not use it), but in the hands of Europe and the US, who should put more pressure on Israel, as they did on Arafat.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo

"The Arabs can stop their war against Israel. This is the key. "

They will stop the war when Israel want to negociate about total withdrawal within its internationally recognised borders. As long as they don't do this, there can't be peace. Occupation is a legitimate reason for war according to the Geneva-convention.


I would just interject here to set the record straight that Israel has agreed several times to negotiate ALL outstanding issues, including land concessions.

In the recent past, when former Israeli PM, Ehud Barak, negotiated Israeli withdrawal, Arafat rejected the offer and returned to use terrorism against Israel. The reason for Arafat's rejection of Barak's offer was that Israel refused to allow millions of Palestinians to re-occupy Israel, and not on the basis of the amount of land in dispute.

You may also recall that Arafat's refusal led to the toppling of the Barak government, when Israelis realized that even if Israel would make tremendous concessions of land to the Palestinians, there would still be no peace.

Fast-forward now to Ariel Sharon, who has also agreed to negotiate all issues, but just after 7 days of lack of Palestinian terrorism. So far, the Palestinians refuse to comply with this obvious condition.

It makes me conclude that the issue is not really about land concessions, but it Arafat's publicly stated desire to completely destroy Israel.

[takeo]

The refusal was not only about the refugee question (but it was one of the reasons) but as well because the settlements wouldn't be dismantled, because big parts of Eastern Yerusalem would still belong to Israel and because Israel would still controll all Palestinian borders, which is unacceptable for any state. Let me recall you that Israel is forced by the UN-resolution to take all refugees, who wish to, back. This will not destroy Israel as a predominantly (but not exclusively) jewish state, as they will still be a minority.
But I think Arafat made a mistake by refusing this offer, on one condition, that it was temporarely, and that further plans would be made in some years concerning the total dismantling of the settlements, the territorial integrity of Palestine (no Israeli soldiers on its borders), eastern Yerusalem and the refugee question. Any new negotiation should start where they were abandoned in Camp david.
And i think there was already 10 days of non-violence (at least at the Palestinian side, some provocative Israeli intrusions in Palestinian territory happened), but Sharon still don't want to negociate or even let Arafat move freely. I hope labour will finally quit the government and new elections will topple Sharon.
Let me also remind you that the original Intifadeh began with youth trowing stones at the occupiing force, and israel responding by shooting at them and killing 100's of Palestinians who were just demonstrating. They also broke the cease-fire with Hamas and the PLF by killing their leaders in a terrorist attack. After that the PLF responded by killing the minister of tourism (a right-wing extremist by the way, plf never kills innocent victims as Hamas) and Hamas responded by terrific terrorist acts against israeli civilians, but only AFTER Israel killed their leader (i forgot his name).
What israel has to do to achieve peace is simple: obey to the UN-resolutions(so TOTAL rethrawel of the territories not recognised as part of Israel and discuss the refugee-problem, maibe if European countries and the US offer them as well to come to live there, some will choose not to go to Israel, but they should have the free choice) . If israel does that, I'm sure Arafat and his fellows will do EVERYTHING to stop anyone from attacking Israel. He will have reached his goal, so will the majority of Pals. Hamas may not have achieved its goal (destruction of Israel) but will be a small unimportant and obscure minority within the palestinian community,(as it was in 1993, when pals still had hope that Oslo would lead them somewhere).

[L@mplighterM]

Well Negrev French and Belquim jews must be pretty dumb if they believe all the Arab BS.

Quite frankly I couldn't care less who my neighbor is as long as he/she acts like one. I think the bottom line is that Arabs on the whole aren't good neighbors and they NEVER will be.

If takeo and others like him would like to live next to a neighborhood where 25% of the people are terrorists and the other 75% support them all I would say to them is GO FOR IT.

The PLO lie through their teeth. Even today whilst they are calling for peace the Israli Government apprehended a ship with 50 Tons of weapons belonging to the PLO. Of course it dosn't belong to the PLO according to their spokesperson.

[takeo]

well, they have the right to defend themselves, and I hope in the future the PA can defend itself against future Israeli intrusions on its territory. Mutual respect and mutual fear, that is usually the key to peace.
Your comments are, as well as those of aid and others on this forum, racist. I think there is nothing more sad than a Jewish racist, we should know better than anyone else what harm is caused by racism. you don't want to live next to an arab neighbour, that's the main point you just made. If you don't want to give them a chance to live peacefully together (or even don't want to live peacefully together next to an arab neighbour) than of course all talks about peace are just plain bull****.
Again, some palestinians are terrorist because of the conditions, just as the founding fathers of Israel were also terrorists(against the British and Arabs) to achieve their country and freedom. It doesn't mean that every palestinian is a terrorist for the rest of his or her life. if you can't understand that it is very sad and depressing, and i'm glad i don't live in Israel and have to face war, hate and extremism (on both sides).
I know many Palestinians in France and they are nice people. they know I'm Jewish but when they hear i don't support Israel they don't care that I'm Jewish. They are hard for people living in Israel, true, and some support terrorism, but they told me if Israel would give them a fair chance to return to their land and live in israel or an independant palestinian state, they would be ready to forgive all crimes against their people. I don't think Israeli on the other hand are ready to forgive the palestinian crimes, ever.
But one thing, if you don't want an Arab as your neighbour, why did you choose to live in Israel, always inhabited by Arabs and surrounded by Arabs, you could as well go to live in the US, for example? And why do people who hate Arabs build settlements in the middle of a Palestinian town? To understand them better, i don't think so!

:D

[L@mplighterM]

If reality makes me a racist takeo so be it. It dosen't matter if I'm a jew or a gentile right is right and wrong is wrong. Further if you think my beliefs makes me a racist then I'm proud to be one.

I'll tell you I wouldn't give the Palestinians one square inch of land. The Arabs got 95% of the occupied territories back and as far as I'm concerned the remaining 5% should become part of Israel. A small percentage of land like that is not too much to keep as PART payment for the loss of Jewish life in the Six Day War.

The USA and most European countries gained territory through wars so if you're suggesting that a special rule should apply to Israel then you're a racist. I hope you noticed that I didn't call you a racist jew because I dont believe you're jewish. The one thing that I'm happy about is the fact that I dont have an ******* like you for a neighbor.

As far as the UN goes they are a racist organization that should be dismantled and they would be if the USA lost its power to VETO resolutions.

If the Palestinians are such great people why don't you lobby the French Government to import them all there.

[aid]

Takeo, you know what?

I'll let the Tzahal and US Marines debate terrorists and their supporters. I have watched the towers of the WTC collapse with my own eyes - this is one of the horrible manifestations of your vorldview, one of support for terrorism.

[Note: shortened for focus]

[takeo]

But one thing i would like to repeat (one of my many arguments noone did respond to) . In France and Belgium the people criticising Israel are the same people criticising Frensh colonialism and criticising nazism and collaboration with any (neo-) nazi group. People defending israel are usually of the far right and are the ones that collaborated with nazism, still collaborate with fascism (Berlusconi, a defender of Israel, for example) or defended colonialism.

[Note: shortened for focus]

[takeo]

one more thing:
those 95%, what do you mean by that?????????
"A small percentage of land like that is not too much to keep as PART payment for the loss of Jewish life in the Six Day War. "
If you want to measure land in blood, I guess Israel should become a lot smaller, as since 1948 a lot more Palestinian blood was lost than Israeli blood. But maibe you consider Israeli blood to be more valuable than Palestinian blood?

[NewsGuy]

Quick Note:

I needed to shorten some of the remarks being made to maintain our topics' focus and not to to be side-lined into using labels to characterize other members of the forum.

Everyone's entitled to their POV, and there's a difference between attacking a POV and attacking the person espousing it.

Yada, yada, yada... you know what I'm saying.

Back to what we enjoy.

:)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
But one thing i would like to repeat (one of my many arguments noone did respond to) . In France and Belgium the people criticising Israel are the same people criticising Frensh colonialism and criticising nazism and collaboration with any (neo-) nazi group. People defending israel are usually of the far right and are the ones that collaborated with nazism, still collaborate with fascism (Berlusconi, a defender of Israel, for example) or defended colonialism.

ok, I'll respond.

You see, the people who draw a paralell between Israel's response to Islamic terrorism on one hand, and between colonialism and nazism on the other hand, have a very problematic point of view.

They are creating a moral equivalency between the victims of terror and nazism and the perpetrators of those crimes.

IMHO, left-wing extremists and ultra-liberals around the world always seem to believe that criminals and mass murderers need to be viewed and treated as equals to their victims. In this regard, I regret that the left-wing and ultra-liberal establishment has taken on the cause of defending Islamic terrorism. They are mistaken to do so, and their justification and tolerance of terrorism is the true underlying cause for an incredibly wasteful loss of life of innocent people.

Terrorists like bin Ladin and Arafat always count on their ultra-liberal friends to advocate their cause and to glorify them as "freedom fighters" rather than mass murderers, which they really are.

[takeo]

I'm glad that I'm no longer labelled at least as a supporter of Al Quaida, as an anti-semitic or a terrorist, but as an ultra-left or ultra-liberal.
Yes, victims and perpetrators can never be treated in the same way, I completely agree with that. But it doesn't mean because Jews were the true victims in WWII and during most of world's history that they are always victims. It is true that Israeli citizens have been targetted by terrorists. But it is equally true that Israel was the perpetrator of acts of violence and occupation against Arabs and Palestinians, acts not provoqued or certainly not legitimised by Arab provocation. The occupation of the westbank, gaza and Eastern Yerusalem was an act of violence against the Palestinians and Israel's neighbours. And the refusal to leave after the war was even more so. It is not self-defense, no single country can build up its self-defense by occupiing other countries and regions and deniing the civilians of tat region their civil rights.
So this was an act of violence against palestinians and Israel was the perpetrator, the PLO violence against israel was in response to that violence and was a fight for the freedom of the Palestinian people. In that war, according to me and the UN as well, Israel was the perpetrator and the Palestinians the victims. You don't have to be an ultra-liberal or ultra-left guy to see that occupation is an act of violence that will necessarily provoke resistance and .
Also israel's refusal to take back the Palestinians etnically cleansed from Israel was an act of violence. One can not punish whole populations for the acts of terror of some leaders or some groups. If you do so you use the same methods as Hamas, who also punish innocent civilians for the crimes of their leaders.
Also attacking the PA when Hamas did a suicide attack is an act of violence as it was not the PA who attacked Israel.
In the last decades it is clear to me that Israel is the perpetrator and the Palestinians the victims (with some victims (hamas and right-wing palestinians) using inhuman and unjust methods to punish the wrong people, not the perpetrators, the army and leadership of Israel, but innocent civilians, that makes them perpetrators as well).
let me put it more simple: if someone takes your house and throw you out, and you decide to kick his ***: are you a criminal or not?
about left-wing support for Israel: the Soviet-union was one of the first to recognise israel and condamn the Arab countries who attacked it. but than it was disappointed that Israel refused to take the refugees back (a demand of the Soviet-Union) and after the war launched by Israel in 1956 and 1967 the soviet-union completely abandoned Israel. Even if I'm very critical to the Soviet-union as well, i think they had the right position. Support Israel but abandon it when it became clear that israel was the perpetrator of crimes in the Middle East.

[JustSad]

Friends,

wouldn't it be a good think to start listening to each other?

The fact that most of the world is concerned about the consequences of the way the conflict in the ME develops, is not a matter of propaganda or lousy PR. It is about normal sensible people, ahum like myself, who have children, work, live and love. People who see the horror develop every day. People who feel sorry for both sides of this conlfict, because both the Israeli's and the Palestinians are victims in their own way. We see two sides to afraid for each other to listen.

We see posts like those in this forum, exposing nothing but blind hate by blind people who don't want to open their eyes because they are probably to afraid for what they might see when they face the mirror.

Believe it or not, but we are your friends. But we are worried.
And forgive us for expressing our worries.

You just can not condemn everyone who has questions about this mattera a follower of Bin Laden. You can not kill discussion.
It is not a simple matter of being with you or against you.

Anti-semitism is something totally diffrent than asking questions about the policy of a state we consider as our friend.

We don't want to discriminate or kill jews. We have no intention of ending the state of Israel. The opposite is true.
You should be ashamed of yourself, even thinking that.

The dark old days or over. In Europe they ae anyway. Europeans once used to believe in witches. These women discriminated and killed. That is over too.
Europe never wants a second holocaust again.
Europe is your best friend!
Friends should eb able to discuss stuff. Help each other.

[aid]

Terrorism is terrorism, and it is just sad that people are refusing to recognize that.

[aid]

JustSad,

You are implying that you live in Europe.

It seems to me that terrorism looks very different from there.

But I live in the NYC area, and I have seen the collapse of the WTC with my own eyes. Maybe this makes the difference?

You write:

"We don't want to discriminate or kill jews. We have no intention of ending the state of Israel. The opposite is true.
You should be ashamed of yourself, even thinking that."

I believe you. But in this case just tell me why you (I mean the powers to be in most of Europe) support and encourage those, like the regime of Arafat, who want to kill Jews and do kill them - every goddamn day? Why do you support and encourage those who want to end the State of Israel.

You words are your words. And your deeds are your deeds. While the words are soothing, the deeds result in perpetuating the carnage by supporting the terrorists.

It is very sad indeed.

[takeo]

Dear Aid,

I have been to Gaza strip, and from there nobody can deny the israeli terrorism and fascist oppression against the Palestinians.
the world is bigger than Israel and NYC.
And Europe has been confronted with terrorism a lot more than the US during its (even recent) history. My grandfather died in Nazi terror camps because he was Jewish, you don't have to teach me what anti-semitism and terrorism is!
I suggest you go to visit a refugee-camp as well.
And Arafat isn't a terrorist any more (he was), however Ben Goerion was and Sharon still is. For Europe and the UN the policy of Israel, which contradicts all democratic and international juridic principles, is not acceptable, and can not be justified.

[aid]

Fascist oppression is Arab against Israel.

What is Fascist is the denial of Israel's RIGHT to exist, which you sahre with them.

Don't teach me about Europe. I was born there and I lived there.

I know everything about it.

My father was badly wounded at the Stalingrad front fighting the same kind of evil that Israel is fighting today.

In his recent THe STate of the Union speech Bush officially pronounced Hamas and Jihad terrorist organizations. And yet they openly exist on the territory controlled by the PA, with their leader Ahmad Yassin freely giving speeches and interviews.

This alone makes the PA a regime harboring terrorism and thus subject to elimination. The PLO itself, now the PA, emerged as an openly terrorist organization, conducted terrorism for many years before Oslo, especially in Europe, and, once admitted to Israel, increased its terrorism conducting and supporting terrorist activities in its role as terrorist authority.


Your calling Ben Gurion "terrorist" is unprecedented and demonstrates one of the the worst propaganda pieces I've ever heard.

And I know what your problem with Sharon is. As the Arab world and Fascists of all kinds, you cannot forgive Sharon his saving Israel in 1973. You will never forgive him his 101-st kilometer.

So stay with your terrorists. Stay with al-Qaeda.

And we in the US are going to do what we need to protect ourselves from your likes.

[Flame]

Considering the wave of antisemetic attacks in France, I don't for a moment believe that Tako is Jewish, has ever been to Israel, or has ever studied actual Jewish history. This is either a very ignorant person, or a seasoned antisemite posing as a Jew, which is quite common on message boards.

[Flame]

I put together a site with about 30 articles that I've collected on Israel and Jewish history, links to UN documents on the formation of Israel, links to information about arafat's uncle, the mufti, who worked directly with hitler... complete with photos.... Takeo... please have a read.

http://pub94.ezboard.com/fgalaxy500frm1

[takeo]

"Fascist oppression is Arab against Israel.What is Fascist is the denial of Israel's RIGHT to exist, which you sahre with them. "

No, because the Israeli fight for expansion while the Palestinians fight for their existance. Arafat, me myself, and all the left-wing in israel and Europe, recognise Israel as a fact and wish to recognise it (because people have established their lifes for generations in Israel), in its internationally recognised borders of before 1967. So Israel has the right to exist, but not the right to expand and deny people who lived there for generations the right to return or the right to deny the palestinians the right of an own state themselves. I said this a hundred times on this board, i am not going to repeat it any more.


"Don't teach me about Europe. I was born there and I lived there.
I know everything about it.
My father was badly wounded at the Stalingrad front fighting the same kind of evil that Israel is fighting today. "

So in Stalingrad he risked his life for the survival of the "evil empire"? I can't blame him, because it was better to live there than to live in the nazi-state, on the contrary of what you said before.
The analogy between the nazi-Soviet battle and the israeli-palestinian battle is indeed very clear. Nazi-germany attacked the Soviet-union in operation Barbarosa and wanted to conquer it for german colonisation (with some stupid excuse), and israel attacked the neighbouring countries for conquering new lands for jewish colonisations. The only difference is that in the first the jews were on the side of the victim (among many other victims of nazism: communists, Gypsies, Russian patriots, etc.) and in the latter most of them were unfortunately on the side of the perpetrators.

"In his recent THe STate of the Union speech Bush officially pronounced Hamas and Jihad terrorist organizations. And yet they openly exist on the territory controlled by the PA, with their leader Ahmad Yassin freely giving speeches and interviews.
This alone makes the PA a regime harboring terrorism and thus subject to elimination. The PLO itself, now the PA, emerged as an openly terrorist organization, conducted terrorism for many years before Oslo, especially in Europe, and, once admitted to Israel, increased its terrorism conducting and supporting terrorist activities in its role as terrorist authority. "

The PLO indeed fought for many years a liberation struggle against israeli occupation, untill there was a peace-treaty with israel in 1993 (which you clearly opposes) . Since than the PA did persecuted all terrorists who committed attacks on Israel, untill the destructions and new war imposed by Israel made this impossible. and the PA isn't a state yet, it is nothing more than "autonomous territory" with nothing more than a badly armed police force, no army. The PA itself has never ordered or conducted any terrorist attack on israeli territory, against civilians or even against the occupying force(however policemen have defended themselves at some occations against israeli invasions). Israel however is not harbouring terrorists but is a terrorist nation in itself, by illegally occupying the occupied territories(one can call it terrorism or war) and committing terrorist actions( called "targetted attacks", but nothing more than bom-basts or other terroist actions) on a territory that doesn't belong to Israel. The military actions of palestinians against Israel is self-defense and legitimised, unless they target civilians, which is not allowed by the geneva-conventions.


"Your calling Ben Gurion "terrorist" is unprecedented and demonstrates one of the the worst propaganda pieces I've ever heard.
And I know what your problem with Sharon is. As the Arab world and Fascists of all kinds, you cannot forgive Sharon his saving Israel in 1973. You will never forgive him his 101-st kilometer. "

Ben Goerion did exactly the same as "the palestinian terrorists", he attacked the occupying british autorities, so according to you attacking an occupying army is terrorism, in that case Ben Goerion was a terrorist.
Sharon in the first place will be remembered by the world for the atrocities he ordered in Libanon(but at several other occations in his long terrorist career as well). I'm glad to know that many people in Israel resent Sharon as much as I do.


"So stay with your terrorists. Stay with al-Qaeda.
And we in the US are going to do what we need to protect ourselves from your likes."

Al quaida can be eliminated, the palestinian people will never be eliminated and will fight as long as it needs, and make the life of Israel miserable as long as it needs to accomplish the UN-resolutions.

[takeo]

Flame the link you posted is nothing but lousy extremist and fascist propaganda of the kind you can hear from Daniel Pipes, and almost not a single proove. If you want a real link to Israel's policy and history, with a lot of actual references, quotes, etc. go to http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
a group of Jewish people based in the US and Israel who hate Israel's policy. I guess according to you Noam Chomsky or Sartre aren't jews either, right? In fact most Frensh and belgian Jews hate israel's policy. I'm not an exception.

[aid]

Unfortunately Takeo is Jewish (in the strict Rabbinical interpretation only).

He speaks Russian and even uderstands some Yiddish.

This means he must be Jewish although he himself is not sure what he is.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Noam Chomsky or Sartre aren't jews either, right?

In fact most Frensh and belgian Jews hate israel's policy. I'm not an exception.

Noam Chomsky is like a parasite feeding on the very democracy that protects him and allows for him to spread his diseased philosophy.

As for most French and Belgian Jews, I don't think that you are the norm, although they by-and-large fear for their lives in the anti-semitic countries are are unfortunate to live in.

[takeo]

"Noam Chomsky is like a parasite feeding on the very democracy that protects him and allows for him to spread his diseased philosophy. "

My God! Why not burn the books of this parasite and Jewish traitor and ask for a Fatwa against this "diseased philosophy" ?

"As for most French and Belgian Jews, I don't think that you are the norm, although they by-and-large fear for their lives in the anti-semitic countries are are unfortunate to live in."

Man, you really have no clue at all about reality in France and Belgium. I will post this to my other Jewish friends here they will have a good laugh!

[NewsGuy]

Hmmm...

This is from Haaretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=124478) (a leftist Israeli daily newspaper owned by the International Herald Tribune):


"During the last year, feelings of isolation have intensified among Belgium's 30,000 Jews. Many fear for their lives, even though they have no objective reason to do so, and even though there is no evidence of an official state plan to harm the Jews.

Whatever their reason, local Jews now speak about the return of anti-Semitism, and express concerns about being hurt by hatred of Jews. As in France, the second intifada uprising lit a fuse - and the fire continues to blaze because of local media coverage of what is depicted as harsh, aggressive treatment of helpless Palestinians. Jews have decided that sharp criticism in Belgium of Israel's government has been reflected on the local level and has turned into anti-Semitic sentiment

...

Belgian Jews feel as though ill winds of the past are once again sweeping across Europe. About 60 years after Nazi horrors victimized Jews in the country, descendants of World War II-era Jews feel as though they are once again being exploited as scapegoats. Faced with this threat, local Jews have mobilized and united. It is as though Jewish identity only flowers under dark clouds of external threats, be they real or imagined.

"I can't recall another period when the atmosphere in the community was so charged up," says Pedro Weinreb, a Jewish-Belgian businessman, in a tone of unconcealed pride. A few months ago, he established a "task force" of Jews from the community, whose purpose is to forestall attacks against Jews

...

"It's simply an absurd situation," exclaims Nicholas Sommerstein, describing the plight of moderate Jews in the country. Sommerstein and others who have supported the left in Israel, and favored the establishment of a Palestinian state, now find themselves defending Sharon. They have mobilized in favor of Israel's current government as an instinctive response to the anti-Israel broadside attacks in Belgium's government - attacks tainted by an anti-Jewish tone.

"We have a dilemma," Sommerstein says, referring to Jews like himself who have felt compelled to defend Sharon in response to the not-so-veiled anti-Semitic content in media discussions of Israeli policy."

* * *

In all fairness, the article also points out the POV of a Belgian rabbi who loves the funding his community projects receive from the government and it also quotes an Arab saying that anti-semitism stems from hatred of Israel's policies, but the Arab then adds that there is anti-semitic incitement in Belgium's mosques in which Jews as a nation are blamed.

Overall, you can get the gist of the article here.

[Flame]

Sorry Takeo... the site you provided is propaganda at its most PC westcoast slick.

Half of the sites and articles I have compiled are actual documents and actual recorded history prior to PC revisionism.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Flame
Half of the sites and articles I have compiled are actual documents and actual recorded history prior to PC revisionism.

Flame,

excellent site! :)

Why not put your URL in your signature so more people can benefit? up to you.

[Flame]

Thanks NewsGuy. As soon as I figure out how to do that, I will. Good idea. I wasn't able to organize the site in sections, but I selected things based on certain catagories. Jewish history with links to scholarly information, Israel's history, nazi/islamic propagnada and journalisc current information.

One of the links even has the pal's charter.

If takeo is a Jew... it's a very sad day for Jews. So much for the stereotype of "all" Jews being smart. Maybe he has an arab girlfriend? Something strange has influenced him other than reality. (Not that Jews and Isreal is perfect) but takeo's take indeed sounds straight out of nazi propaganda.

[takeo]

lol, Flame, nazi-propaganda, whatever...
This is the same BS i can read on your site, nothing but propaganda, yes, arafat is a terrorist (why? because he iS, don't need proove for that, do we?) , etc.

[takeo]

it is sad that so many Jews support a fascist expantion-policy. The day Sharon was elected was also a sad day for the Jewish people.
And i have no Arab girlfriend, i didn't mix my pure Jewish blood with inpure Arab blood if you mean this.

And i don't need any article describing how Jewish Belgians and French should feel. While Ha'aretz is certainly more moderate than the Jerusalem post, it is still very biased.

Since the germans retreated in 1945, not a single Jew had been killed by anti-semites in Belgium nor in France. And in Belgium there is even less anti-semitism than in france (they don't have such a large jewish nor Arab community). in belgium I didn't hear any political party, any person, not even an Arab make anti-semitic comments (let alone i felt treatened). The prime minister of Flanders (Dewael) has even offered to visit Israel but Israel refused his entry because of the anti-belgian hetze in Israel(because of the Sharon-inquiry). I also didn't hear of a single Jew who felt treatened and not even of a synagogue that has been partially damaged by Arabs as happened in France on a single occasion. A lot of people write indignated letters to newspapers to protest against the treatment of the palestinians and offer their sympathy to the pals, however not on a single occasion this was lso directed towards the Jews living in belgium or France. The Jewish community has organised because of the events in the middle east, and hard discussions between pro- and anti-israel Jews, it had nothing to do with the situation in Belgium wich is completely normal (idem in France) . maybe some jews who live in Arab neighbourhoods of the capital feel treatened, however nothing ever happened.
the media isn't anti-semitic as well and one of the belgian newsgroups is partly owned by Jews(as in france TF1) .
All this reports about Belgium and France being dangerous and hostile for jews are just plain rubbish. You can even, as some did, defend the position of Sharon on television or on the front page of a leading newspaper, and the worst that can happen will be some angry readers replies in newspapers.

[takeo]

OK guys, tomorrow I'm gone to Cuba.
see you back in a month
More than likely the situation will still be the same, more destroyed houses and buildings, more innocent victims, more terrorist actions and assasinations, no peace-talks, ... I hope finally the peace-movement will wake up from its hibernation and shake the Sharon-government with more of the kind of initiatives as refusing to serve in the occupied territories. It will send a clear message to the palestinian radicals that they should stop targetting civilian Israeli as not all of them support occupation and repression.

[takeo]

Shalom to everyone

ruack in dein tatens taten areyn, for those who wish me bad luck

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Shalom to everyone

Shalom takeo.

Lehitraot in a month.

Meanwhile, I hope you're not planning on occupying Cuba.

;)

[aid]

Kuba lybov' moya.

Kuba strana svobody...

Takeo, is this your Communist hajj?

Good Muslims take a piligrimage to Mecca.

Good Commies do it to Havana.

Say my personal hello to the bearded one and wish him the best mausoleum now.

[takeo]

Newsguy actually in a few hours I am going to explore new places for jewish resettlement ;)
aid, yes i love Cuba, but not only because it's communist and there are still a lot of Russians ( i admit that's part of the charm), but because people of all origins (including Jews, africans and Arabs) have created a new unique society. Altough American embargo combined with the stop of Soviet aid deprived them of of the high living standard they had untill the 80's, it is a free country in the sence that it is the only Central American country that doesn't take its orders directly from Washington. Too bad that your free-loving nation doesn't allow you to visit Cuba.
see ya

:cool:

[takeo]

now go to your yearly pilgrimage to the birthplace of the Genius of the Negev, the Warrier of the Holy Bulldozer, Ariel Sharon.
mechugas

[aid]

Takeo,

Are you a secret emissary delivering a message of solidarity from your party to the al-Qaeda comrades who are kept prisoners of US imperialism on the Guantanamo military base stolen from the Cuban people?

You don't stop to amaze me, Takeo.

There is a category of meshugene Jews who stick their fingers everywhere, and then the rest of us pays for it.

As they say, the Bronsteins are paying for all the Trotskyis have "achieved" in their debauchery.

[takeo]

i don't care for the fate of Al-quada but yes, Guantanamo base belongs to Cuba and is illigally occupied by the US.
And are you suggesting the (communist?) Jews brought nazism and genocide upon themselves? If you are, than this is neo-nazi propaganda.

[aid]

Am I also an enemy of the people, Takeo?

Do you wear a leather coat and carry a mauser on you?

[Negev]

it's amazing to see that in this day and age there is still someone devoted to communism and against capitalism and democracy.

of course it makes sense that this same person is anti-israel also.