shimon peres

[Danisl]

today shimon peres said that it will be denguroes to attack iraq
but it will be more dengoures not to attack.
for thos of you who dont know shimon peres
i will make a small introduction-
peres has been a man of am..... "peace" all his life,
in israel he is considerd a looser, why? well he has never won an election on hes own and beleive me he did try he is now almost 80 years old, showing no sings of quiting. sure he was israels eight prime ministre, but why? he was the temporary replacment
after itzhak rabin was asassinated. he also won the nobel prize for peace one day, we all pretty much know what kind of error that was. next, when the israeli air force attacked the iraqi nuclear planet he was the only one to vote against it! well i can go on forever but if you want to know more
here is a positive biography:

http://www.peres-center.org/about/peres.html

i advice you not to take hem for real i actually think hes going a bit sinil

[Moon]

From that site:
In 1953, at age 29, Shimon Peres was appointed by Prime Minister and Minister of Defense David Ben Gurion to the post of Director General of the Ministry of Defense, a position he held until 1959. During that period, he shaped the special relations between Israel and France, and established Israel's electronic aircraft industries, as well as its nuclear program.Yeah sure, people might consider Shimon Peres an hypocrit, but I consider him a great man worthy of a great admiration. He provided Israel the guarantee of militar victory, he knows damn well the destructive power Israel has and his peace-seeking attitude (irritating at some point) makes him a valuable and noble personality IMO. He plays one of the most important and needed political roles. He cares more about Israel's enemys than her enemys themselves. Just opinions...

[Mediocrates]

I have great empathy and respect for Mr. Peres who has been saying the same things for 50 years. He has seen and experienced every failed attempt at conciliation and aggression and if you hear what he has to say and read what he writes you will learn that he is far from the fawning dove he is made out to be. He has been the architect of both the carrot and the stick and he has offered the PLO a way out that would minimize suffering on both sides. That he is excoriated now speaks more to the lack of long term results in the operations so far. Israel like any modern nation must project a strategy of aggression and diplomacy at the same time. That is a basic tool of negotiation. And that is the purpose he serves now.

[Vic]

Frankly, from what I see and hear of him in the local media, he is currently a serious liability in his role of Foreign Minister, no matter what his past achievements may have been. He certainly weakens Israel's standing in Europe. I have tried to raise the subject here, I don't want to repeat all of it: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1205

[Danisl]

you all do raise a good point, but peres is not a diplomat as you may think. he is a smart man but he would sell his own mother
to have "peace" with the arabs!!!

[Adversary2Arabs]

Shimon Peres is a cancer on the Jewish Body.
---SORRY for incitment; didn't mean it that way...just as a figure of speech. ...Thou shalt not kill...and I am religious.---
It's people like him that are what's hurting the Jewish people. They kill us from within.

And "he is a smart man but he would sell his own mother
to have "peace" with the arabs!!!" is exactly right. Just another pathetic leftist. He should shut his mouth and keep his antisemetic policies to himself. Only on a rare occaison have I heard or read anything POSITIVE come from him.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Danisl
you all do raise a good point, but peres is not a diplomat as you may think. he is a smart man but he would sell his own mother
to have "peace" with the arabs!!! Well, a Foreign Minister is supposed to be a diplomat, isn't he? Otherwise he must change the job. And diplomacy is hardly less important than the military. Why complain about the evil Europeans the whole time, if the highest representative of your state they get to deal with basically asks them for it? Are they expected to have a better Israel policy than what is to them the Israeli government?

[Mediocrates]

I think if you had to sum it up, Peres believes in a very strong deterrent while attempting diplomacy. He is after the original head of the Israeli nuclear weapons program.

Who's to say what 'world opinion' would have been w/o him.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Who's to say what 'world opinion' would have been w/o him. Speaking for my part of the world and with due respect for his past achievements - he basically conducts his party's election campaign here, making the overall country much more vulnerable. He almost asks for the part of the government he serves in but doesn't like to be attacked (verbally) from the outside, a nice side effect is that he depicts Israel this way as a country whose politics and top politicians are not to be taken seriously, who would - the Europeans on all levels easily conclude - never manage without good advice from the outside. And good advice they give :(

[peacelover]

Vic, I disagree.

I don't know what country you're from, but in Britain it seems that the EU doesn't have any time for many Israeli politicians except for Peres.

Certainly, I know that most of the European electorate don't see the fact he wants peace as a bad thing, as it sems many Israelis do. Most Europeans I know have infinite respect for Peres compared to Sharon, who they rightly want to see stand trial for war crimes in Lebanon, and Netanyahu, whose very name makes me, and many other Europeans, feel sick.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by peacelover
Vic, I disagree.

I don't know what country you're from, but in Britain it seems that the EU doesn't have any time for many Israeli politicians except for Peres.

Certainly, I know that most of the European electorate don't see the fact he wants peace as a bad thing, as it sems many Israelis do. Most Europeans I know have infinite respect for Peres compared to Sharon, who they rightly want to see stand trial for war crimes in Lebanon, and Netanyahu, whose very name makes me, and many other Europeans, feel sick.

Europeans like Peres because no matter how many Jews the Arabs kill, he is always willing to forgive them.

Think about it.

As for Sharon, you are simply blinded by propaganda and emotion. As the Irish diplomat Conor Cruise O'Brien explained, the Palestinian "refugee camps" in southern Lebanon would have been more accurately described as military bases. O'Brien doesn't hesitate to say he has never liked Sharon, but having worked with Arab diplomats at the UN and having studied the conflict for so many years, he understood the "war crimes" charge against Sharon was like the recent "massacre" charge concerning Jenin.

The reason so many Arabs hate Sharon so intensely is not easily understood by westerners. Sharon defeated the Egyptian army and then humiliated them by letting them go when he could have slaughtered them. This is why they hate him.

Netanyahu may make you feel sick, but that simply proves you are unable to exercise objective judgement. Netanyahu arguably understands the causes and nature of terrorism better than anyone else on the planet. He has written brilliantly and prophetically on the subject. He understood at the beginning of the Oslo "Peace Process" that it was a foolish idea predicated on the false equation of "land for peace."

Peacelover, you often demonstrate a reasonable character. Are you really certain that Sharon is a "war criminal"? Are you certain you have not simply been overwhelmed by propaganda? Do you personally have such firm evidence that you are comfortable destroying another person's character -- or are you listening to enemies who call their every defeat a "massacre" and "war crime"?

Sharon was Minister of Defense at the time when the Lebanese Christians went into the terrorist camps. He was not in charge of daily actions of Israeli troops. And he certainly was not in charge of Lebanese Christians. Having totally destroyed Lebanon, the Palestinians made many, many bitter enemies in Lebanon, particularly among Christians.

[Vic]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Europeans like Peres because no matter how many Jews the Arabs kill, he is always willing to forgive them.Not this simple. The point is, Peres doesn't act like a representative of a truly sovereign state. This rouses the good old colonialist instincts. Whatever the Europeans do in the ME, they meddle far too much down there - and, of course, they approve of anyone who appreciates it.

European ME policy, seems, if anything, absolutely inconsequent and foolish. If Mr. Peres is regarded so highly here, why work so hard to undermine his electorate basis, as I have tried to ask in another thread (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1371)? If the European political leadership does want to cement a right-wing government in Israel, despite all declarations to the contrary, then what the hell is going on here, other than trying to deliver material for a new "March of Folly" chapter - at the cost of human life, as usual in such cases?

[Mr. Pumps]

:D I would vote for Peres if he dyed his hair blue, what a Patriot.

[takeo]

"He has written brilliantly and prophetically on the subject. He understood at the beginning of the Oslo "Peace Process" that it was a foolish idea predicated on the false equation of "land for peace."

of course, not very hard to be prophetic, as he singlehandedly destroyed Oslo by not carriing out the israeli promises, as he didn't believe in it, making look Arafat like a fool in front of his people.
Peres is appreciated in Europe for his role in Oslo and because he is one of the rare moderate voices in the israeli government.
Yet Europeans do not fully understand the man. Peres isn't a dove, nor was Rabin, nor is the labour party a "dovish" party. He used to be in favor of the occupation of the westbank and Gaza, only the intifadeh, isolation of israel and foreign pressure made him come to the conclusion that it would be better for israeli interests to make peace with the palestinians, without sacrificing anything, as he doesn't care one little bit about the faith of Palestinians. That's why oslo was so vague, because he wanted peace without the slightest israeli sacrifice, he hoped to turn Arafat in a pupet administrating the occupied territories for israel, this failed.

[strategist]

I have a simple policy for deciding on the outcome of such a debate.

I look at what the statesman has achieved in his life, and compare it to the lives of his detractors.

It is a very effective strategy for handling this sort of debate.

For example, most of the people being highly critical of Peres are residing outside of Israel.

I ask, who are these chutznikim and what have they ever done for Israel?

Then I look at Peres and what he has done for Israel.

I won't be more explicit, but you get the general idea of what I think of those of you calling him a "cancer" and a "liability".

Those of you making such comments fail the test of being Jewish, that is the requirement to observe one of the most basic tenats of our faith, beyn adam l'chavero.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by strategist



Then I look at Peres and what he has done for Israel.What about what he is doing at the moment? Past glories count only with retired politicians, you know ;)

[Miriam]

Originally posted by peacelover


... in Britain it seems that the EU doesn't have any time for many Israeli politicians except for Peres.

Certainly, I know that most of the European electorate don't see the fact he wants peace as a bad thing, as it sems many Israelis do. Most Europeans I know have infinite respect for Peres compared to Sharon, who they rightly want to see stand trial for war crimes in Lebanon, and Netanyahu, whose very name makes me, and many other Europeans, feel sick. This may be the biggest problem with Peres.

[strategist]

Originally posted by Miriam
What about what he is doing at the moment? Past glories count only with retired politicians, you know ;)



To which I would respond that his vision of a New Middle East is not only achievable in the long term, but it is undoubtedly more desireable than the vision of the Israeli right.

And I emphasize the 'long term'. IMO, the basic problem of the Israeli right is that during the peace process it looked only to the short term, i.e. the then current security situation, rather than to the long term.

But we know that this was in fact a strategy for destroying the peace process in order to continue the bulding of the settlements and the repression of the Palestinians.

Peres, Rabin and Beilin (and of course the Israeli left in general) had a vision of the future, to make the future better.

The right destroyed that vision by playing into the hands of Hamas and Jihad.

So, before you criticise Peres, remember that if you have destroyed his vision, it is only because hatred is the most powerful of emotions.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by strategist
To which I would respond that his vision of a New Middle East is not only achievable in the long term, but it is undoubtedly more desireable than the vision of the Israeli right.

And I emphasize the 'long term'. IMO, the basic problem of the Israeli right is that during the peace process it looked only to the short term, i.e. the then current security situation, rather than to the long term.

But we know that this was in fact a strategy for destroying the peace process in order to continue the bulding of the settlements and the repression of the Palestinians.

Peres, Rabin and Beilin (and of course the Israeli left in general) had a vision of the future, to make the future better.

The right destroyed that vision by playing into the hands of Hamas and Jihad.

So, before you criticise Peres, remember that if you have destroyed his vision, it is only because hatred is the most powerful of emotions. I wasn't really discussion his or anyone else's "visions". Visions can be generally evaluated only in retrospect, after they have passed the real-life test, therefore as far as I am concerned these "visions" are a non-issue. I am writing about his activities as the top Israeli diplomat, and - to judge by what I have seen - they are absolutely unprofessional.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by strategist

For example, most of the people being highly critical of Peres are residing outside of Israel...

...I won't be more explicit, but you get the general idea of what I think of those of you calling him a "cancer" and a "liability".

Those of you making such comments fail the test of being Jewish, that is the requirement to observe one of the most basic tenats of our faith, beyn adam l'chavero.

No, you are someone who rushed to defend the Mufti of Jerusalem for imploring Hitler to extend "the final solution" to Palestine. You claim to be an Israeli Jew, but you deny that Jews are a nation. In fact, you completely embrace the side of Israel's enemies.

Now you present the phony argument that only those who reside in Israel are qualified to comment. Just as you contradicted yourself left and right in another thread... YOU reside in the U.K.

Or is that, too, a lie?

[strategist]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
No, you are someone who rushed to defend the Mufti of Jerusalem for imploring Hitler to extend "the final solution" to Palestine. You claim to be an Israeli Jew, but you deny that Jews are a nation. In fact, you completely embrace the side of Israel's enemies.

Now you present the phony argument that only those who reside in Israel are qualified to comment. Just as you contradicted yourself left and right in another thread... YOU reside in the U.K.

Or is that, too, a lie?



If I wasn't in pain (from a head wound I received playing squash last night) I would laugh.

You are (very poorly) trying to place me on the defensive about my Mufti comments, to avoid answering my questions.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can claim to be a Jew when you ignore basic tenats of the faith.

(Not that this is important, but like I said, I am an Israeli on doctoral studies in the UK.

I have to ask if a person who lives outside of Israel and doesn't know what the "dati'im" are is qualified to make a serious comment about an extremely complex situation.)

[Mediocrates]

I see Mr. Peres's failure not one of vision but of execution. It's been reported over and over that the nature of Mr. Peres's tenure as FM has always been based on deep personal relationships with his peers. He has never used the apparatus of the Ministry itself but instead ran the entire Foreign Relations effort from his own Rolodex.

The problem with this is that the age of charismatic diplomatic wonks is over and that approach is woefully inadequate. Foreign Ministers don't control the western press and even in their own administrations are one of many competing agendas and interests that flow up to the executive branch. Look at the US where Powell is one voice out of many frequently ignored by both the media and the White House itself.

For a comparison look at the new IDF spokesperson. I forget her name but she is an American born Lt. Col and former military intelligence officer who has a superb grasp of the subtleties of her job. This is what they need to - hire professionals who can get each little part of the job done w/ worrying the grand scheme on their own. Tha same thing applies to the Foreign Ministry role. Eliminate the political plums and hack appointments. Create an infrastructure that is assigned discrete tasks and is accountable to a documented plan of action.

In this way the Israelis can act out of, and respond to criticism of, a policy and a plan and not the individuals involved. People are not the interesting story; the story is the interesting story.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by strategist


You are (very poorly) trying to place me on the defensive about my Mufti comments, to avoid answering my questions.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can claim to be a Jew when you ignore basic tenats of the faith...

...I have to ask if a person who lives outside of Israel and doesn't know what the "dati'im" are is qualified to make a serious comment about an extremely complex situation.)

No, as I said in the "Who are the Palestinians" thread:


[posted by ibrodsky]
...I simply don't accept your suggestion that people have to pass your Jewishness test to participate in this forum.

We have Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, and atheist participants who are all welcome because they debate in a civil and honest manner, unlike you.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by strategist
To which I would respond that his vision of a New Middle East is not only achievable in the long term, but it is undoubtedly more desireable than the vision of the Israeli right.

Nice theory, but Peres and his fellow Leftists have failed miserably while they had the mandate to put their plans into action.

Instead, they managed to legitimize the Father of Modern Terrorism, Yasser Arafat, made him a head of state and armed him to the hilt. The result? I think we all know it.

That is exactly why Israel rejected the Leftists and their fantasy politics and turned to Sharon to let him do the dirty work of disarming the Palestinian terror machine and getting the peace process back on track.

And even here, the Leftists didn't have the decency of backing the IDF. Instead, they always tried their best to sabotage the government's efforts to rid the country once and for all of the Palestinian terrorists.

Let me also add, strategist, that many Leftist yefei nefesh like yourself like to sip lattes on Sheinkin Street and criticize people like ibrodsky, because he lives outside Israel.

Well, we both know that a Leftist like yourself, whether sitting at Sheinkin or in a campus in the UK, is much less representative of Israeli interests than ibrodsky.

And, btw - people like ibrodsky have their own tafkid, managing the Israel Forum, and authoring pro-Israeli advocacy materials that reach an audience of hundreds of thousands. What's your tafkid, Mar strategist? What have you done to benefit the Jewish people lately?


And I emphasize the 'long term'. IMO, the basic problem of the Israeli right is that during the peace process it looked only to the short term, i.e. the then current security situation, rather than to the long term.

Unless there is a solution to Palestinian terrorism in the short term, there will be no long term to worry about anyway.


But we know that this was in fact a strategy for destroying the peace process in order to continue the bulding of the settlements and the repression of the Palestinians.
With all due respect, strategist, you seem to be suffering from Leftist amnesia.

It is the Palestinians who took an active decision to mass murder hundreds of Israeli civilians that destroyed the peace process, if there ever existed an actual "peace process" in the first place.

Demanding that the Arabs stop their massacres of Jews is not considered "repression." It is a basic necessity for Israel's survival.


The right destroyed that vision by playing into the hands of Hamas and Jihad.

Again, a case of amnesia.

It was not only Hamas and Islamic Jihad. As most people will recall, Arafat and his corrupt dictatorship warlords like Barghouti, Dahlan and Rajoub were all directly involved in the terrorism. From the Karine 'A' to Arafat's personal signature authorizing the purchase of materials for suicide bombers, the Palestinian Authority was always behind the terrorism just the same as Hamas and Jihad.

But I know that many Leftists are afraid to face the facts, because the entire Leftist agenda is built on denial of reality, pretending that there is a Palestinian leadership interested in peace. There is none, unfortunately. Otherwise there would have been peace a long time ago.

[strategist]

What's your tafkid, Mar strategist? What have you done to benefit the Jewish people lately?



Real sweet coming from an LA resident.

Did you ever serve in the IDF?

Did you ever live in Israel?

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by strategist
Real sweet coming from an LA resident.

Did you ever serve in the IDF?

Did you ever live in Israel?

I gots my ice cream, you don't have no ice cream! What's the point really?

I haven't served in the IDF. Many of family in Israel have. However, some IDF members have sold or traded arms to terrrorists for money or drugs. Some have gone over the line in their treatment of Palestinians, hurting the Jewsih cause.

I don't live in Israel, though a large portion of my family does. However, there are many Israelis (possibly you), that hurt the Jewish people instead of benefitting them, oh, and criminals too live in Israel.

So I really don't see your point. You're not there now, and you are not fighting in the IDF, so what makes you more qualified than anyone else in here? I find it funny that no one actually in Israel has called you out on the hypocrisy yet.

[Miriam]

Oh dear...

Guys, you are both on the same side of the fence. Calm down for Allah's sake ;)