Question about a story in Torah regarding working on Shabbat. [Archive]

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Haifa

08-16-2002, 12:12 PM

Ok, my question is about the origin of the story about Pigs and Apes that muslims use. I want to see if it is stolen from the Torah, or if it is Muslim invention.

_______________

The story goes like this:

thousands of years ago, a Jewish tribe used to live near a sea. All men of that tribe were fishermen, and they relied on hunting whales. The problem was the during week days, no whales came near the shore, but on the Shabbat, hundreds of whales came there. But no one could hunt the whales because they were forbidden to work on the Shabbat. The sad thing is that this happened everyweek. After several months, a group of men decided to hunt on the Shabbat. Their families tried to stop them, but they could not.

When the shabbat came, those men went to the shore, and started hunting whales. So God felt mad because they worked on the Shabbat, and turned them into apes and pigs.

This is how the jews became the "Sons of Apes and Pigs"

_____________

Now the question is, is there a story like this in the Torah/Talmud/Mishnah/Midrash that muslims used to VARIFY their clames? Or is the story ENTIRELY a muslim invention?

Can someone, preferebly a religious person who has knowledge in these subjects, tell me?

Moon

08-16-2002, 02:24 PM

GROINK??

Nah...

ibrodsky

08-16-2002, 07:20 PM

You are confusing (intentionally?) the Torah with the Koran.

The vast majority of Jews are rational and don't believe that humans can suddenly turn into other species.

Unfortunately, Islam hasn't changed much since the 7th century, and there are some Muslims (mainly Islamists) who believe such stories because they suit their prejudiced and intolerant minds.

Haifa

08-16-2002, 08:24 PM

no no no, the story (from what i've been told) IS in the koran. But we all know that many of the stuff of the quran was copied from the Torah.

So my question is: is this story, in particular, copied? or is it human invention?

And do not tell me you do not believe in maricles. What do you call the story of exodeus and the sea splitting in two? science?

elke

08-17-2002, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by Haifa
no no no, the story (from what i've been told) IS in the koran. But we all know that many of the stuff of the quran was copied from the Torah.

So my question is: is this story, in particular, copied? or is it human invention?

And do not tell me you do not believe in maricles. What do you call the story of exodeus and the sea splitting in two? science?

This story has been invented by the same type of humans as the blood libel. If this story is actually in the Quran, any respect I've ever had for that book is gone .

I will have to check this out, however, since this is a major accusation against Islam you are making. Whales? Please! :rolleyes:

L@mplighterM

08-17-2002, 04:48 PM

Actually at one point in history there was person called trainspitter it was called trainspitter because it liked to spit on trains. The trains were dusty and so the wet spit would leave a little mark on the train.

One day it had spat on more than a 100 railroad cars and it was running out of spit. The sun was shinning that day and it was very hot even though it had rained the day before and there were no clouds in the horizon.

Its mouth was parched and dry and its lips had begun to crack. It was starting to dehydrate at a rapid rate. Finally it fell seemingly lifeless to the ground.

When it awoke it was in a railway yard in troll land. I’ve heard that trolls are nasty creatures when they want to be. This particular trainspitter wasn’t exactly popular with the trolls because trolls go to a lot of trouble making trains dusty and another popular pastime is posting stupid questions on forums.

Trainspitter managed to utter only one word “thirsty” and so the trolls gave it some troll water and presto trainspitter turned into a pig with a curly pink tail. Oink! Is all he could say! The next time trainspitter took a drink he turned into a monkey with a long furry tail. Chee chee is all that trainspitter could say.

Now everyone knows that there’s no escape from troll land and so trainspitter was destined to spend his remaining days alternating between a monkey and a pig.

I’m almost certain that some Muslim must have witnessed a similar event like this a long time ago when camelspitting was popular and he most likely told Mohammed. Mohammed needing a story for his writings incorporated the story into his book with some modifications.

achaaban

08-14-2005, 05:04 PM

Ok, my question is about the origin of the story about Pigs and Apes that muslims use. I want to see if it is stolen from the Torah, or if it is Muslim invention.

There is no Muslim invensions, Mohamed came to ask the Arabs to believe in the God of the Jews, so all the stories must match.

_______________

The story goes like this:

thousands of years ago, a Jewish tribe used to live near a sea. All men of that tribe were fishermen, and they relied on hunting whales. The problem was the during week days, no whales came near the shore, but on the Shabbat, hundreds of whales came there. But no one could hunt the whales because they were forbidden to work on the Shabbat. The sad thing is that this happened everyweek. After several months, a group of men decided to hunt on the Shabbat. Their families tried to stop them, but they could not.

When the shabbat came, those men went to the shore, and started hunting whales. So God felt mad because they worked on the Shabbat, and turned them into apes and pigs.

This is how the jews became the "Sons of Apes and Pigs"

Is this story written in the Koran, and where? It must be the Palestinian version of interpretation of the Koran, which by the way is interpreted by Terrorist Sheikhs such as the late Sheikh Yassin .

According to the Palestinians the Koran was written because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sarcastically, the word Palestinian is not mentioned once in the Koran.

The Palestinians do not exist in the whole message of the Koran, how did they become the center of attraction. The Koran is clearly talking to the people of Israel and not to the Palestinians.

The Jews could, for Palestinians be the sons of apes and pigs, for the balance of the world the people of Israel were the Chosen People. They were chosen to receive the first message of God. Anyone who reads the Koran will read this fact clearly as it is stated

Oh Bani Israel, remember the grace that I have given you, and that I have preferred you over the whole world. (2:47)

Oh Bani Israel Remember that we took the Covenant of the people of Israel, to believe in the one God, treat with kindness your parents, kindred, orphans and those is need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practice regular charity, then you turned your back to your Covenant except a few among you, and then you backslid.” (2:83), and remember, Bani Israel, when we take your Covenant, that you do not shed the blood of your own, nor turn out yourselves and your own people out of their homes, you have ratified this Covenant and you are a witness to it.” (2:84).

Why will God choose the sons of Pigs and apes to receive his message of monotheism? I really wonder. And where are the Palestinians in this whole dialogue.

andak01

08-14-2005, 06:02 PM

The story doesn't say that ALL Jews were turned into apes and monkeys. A certain group of the ones that neglected shabat were. In the Bible, people who do that receive the death penalty, so they got off pretty lightly.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

ALL Jews weren't turned into monkeys in the Quran and ALL Jews didn't kill Jesus according to the New Testament, but do hateful people care? No in either case.

SteveK

08-15-2005, 04:07 PM

andak01

08-15-2005, 06:03 PM

andak01,

We have another problem with this story of Muslim invention. Why would these Jews be eating whales? Whales are not kosher. Sea creatures must have fins and scales to be kosher. Salmon and Tuna are OK. Lobster, Shrimp, Squid are out.

Better to read the original than what someone tells you about it. Nothing whatsoever about whales.

002.065
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Clear it was "those amongst you", not you in general.

007.163
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.

...
007.166
When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.166

That's it. No whales, fish.

scattergood

08-16-2005, 07:38 AM

Better to read the original than what someone tells you about it. Nothing whatsoever about whales.

002.065
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Clear it was "those amongst you", not you in general.

007.163
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.

...
007.166
When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.166

That's it. No whales, fish.

Ahh, Andak01, up to your games again. Let's look at it in its entirety:

007.163
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.

007.164
When some of them said: "Why do ye preach to a people whom Allah will destroy or visit with a terrible punishment?"- said the preachers:" To discharge our duty to your Lord, and perchance they may fear Him."

007.165
When they disregarded the warnings that had been given them, We rescued those who forbade Evil; but We visited the wrong-doers with a grievous punishment because they were given to transgression.

007.166
"When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

So in 164 it seems that Muslims asked Mohammed why he preached to 'a people' whome 'Allah will destroy'. It can't be that Mohammed was preaching to the one village he mentions for that is in the past and is the basis of his arguement against the Jews, nor is there any mention that he is even there. But let us turn to the commentators as seen in:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4208

"But the hadith and earlier commentators believe that Allah transformed them literally. For example, Ibn Ishaq, an early and reliable biographer of Muhammad, takes the metamorphosis literally, and he has Muhammad calling the Medinan Jewish clan, Qurayzah, “brothers of monkeys.” Medieval commentator Ibn Kathir references Ibn Abbas, Muhammad’s cousin, who interpreted this metamorphosis literally, implying that Muhammad did too. The Iranian Medieval commentator Razi, widely respected even today, speculates that perhaps the “accidents” or appearances of the Jews were changed, but they kept their mental awareness. Even the Medieval mystic and commentator Ibn Arabi says that the transformation, at its base, is real and not metaphorical, though he puts mystical spins on the verse."

But, lest we think that this is just an issue of historical commentators, let's look at these jems:

"At the Sheikh Ijlin Mosque in Gaza, Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiris, employee in the Religious Affairs Ministry in the Palestinian Authority, uses the Battle of Badr (AD 624) as a rallying cry for his fellow jihadists to fight the Jews, who are the descendants of apes and pigs.

Then came the great battle of Badr, where the Muslims grew stronger. This brought the third stage of dealing with the Jewish existence in Al-Madina. We have tolerated you for a long time - you offspring of apes and pigs! We have tolerated you for a long time.

The Imam of the Al-Haram mosque in Mecca, Sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayis, explained in one of his sermons:

Read history and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil forefathers of the even more evil Jews of today: infidels, falsifiers of words, calf worshippers, prophet murderers, deniers of prophecies . . . the scum of the human race, accursed by Allah, who turned them into apes and pigs . . . These are the Jews – an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption . . . "

At the same link, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Saleh Al-‘Athimein said in a sermon at the Great Mosque in Al-‘Unayza, Arabia:

O Muslims, the Jews are treacherous and deceitful people over whom lies the curse and anger of Allah. They permitted what Allah forbade, with the lamest of excuses; therefore, He cursed them and turned them into apes and pigs. Allah sentenced them to humiliation anywhere they might be . . . .

Note how the Sheikh draws the inference for today: “Allah sentenced them to humiliation anywhere they might be.” This means the Jews of today.

So, while YOUR interpretation may be to narrowly construe things, historically and currently you are not the ascendant view. And even if you say the others are wrong in their interpretation, the point is that this IS how they use the texts, they the DO view Jews as pigs and monkeys, in their current views and are able to at least justify their views with Koranic texts.

SteveK

08-16-2005, 03:50 PM

achaaban

08-16-2005, 04:12 PM

So, Islam holds the Jews as pigs and monkeys.
What should the world do with this information?

But, the Torah holds the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

When will the world wake up to this reality and act accordingly to root out this evil from among those who can call themselves members of humanity?

God, ain't it the aweful truth.

I do not see the Quote:

GENESIS: (16:11-12):

And an angel of HASHEM said to her, "Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; you shall name him Ishmael, for HASHEM has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-a$$ of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell."

Saying "the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates."

But I see you SteveK saying that " his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dewll" to mean the Arabs, when I cannot see the word Arab mentioned once in this verse.

SteveK

08-16-2005, 04:25 PM

I do not see the Quote:

Saying "the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates."

But I see you SteveK saying that " his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dewll" to mean the Arabs, when I cannot see the word Arab mentioned once in this verse.

But, the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael.

I'm a descendant of the original Jewish pigs and monkeys spoken about in Islam. So, that makes me a pig and a monkey too,--- right?

andak01

08-16-2005, 07:26 PM

So, while YOUR interpretation may be to narrowly construe things, historically and currently you are not the ascendant view. And even if you say the others are wrong in their interpretation, the point is that this IS how they use the texts, they the DO view Jews as pigs and monkeys, in their current views and are able to at least justify their views with Koranic texts.

What you are talking about above is classic anti-Semitism using classic symbols. If you had been listening to a Lutheran sermon during the Nazi era, what would you expect to hear. Still Lutherans exist among us today in less racist and political times.

If I choose to interpret the text in what is after all just as literal an interpretation as that Sheikh, do you deny me the right or the possibility to be moderate?

achaaban

08-16-2005, 08:04 PM

But, the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael.

Who said so,:confused:

Which Arab are those that are the descendants of Ishmael, there are too many people who are called Arabs nowadays.

scattergood

08-17-2005, 08:33 AM

What you are talking about above is classic anti-Semitism using classic symbols. If you had been listening to a Lutheran sermon during the Nazi era, what would you expect to hear. Still Lutherans exist among us today in less racist and political times.

If I choose to interpret the text in what is after all just as literal an interpretation as that Sheikh, do you deny me the right or the possibility to be moderate?

Yes Andak you are right, the Church, Luther, the Nazi's all used 'classic' interpretations. And no, I don't deny you the right to interpret the texts as you do, I encourage it.

What I do find offensive is passing your view along as 'the view' when hundreds of millions of Muslims live in societies that reject your view and activley encourage the the 'classical' anti-semitic view.

I much prefer the pluralistic non-descrimitory view of a tolerant religion, but both texturally, and as currently interpreted by a HUGE number of Muslims that just isn't the case. I wish your view would become ascendant, but until you recognize that what the real battle is you need to be fighting it another way.

SteveK

08-17-2005, 04:06 PM

andak01, achaaban, and Achihud,

Achihud, is it a coincidence, or do you understand the Hebrew from my posts trailer which is exactly that verse (3:6) from the Prophet Malachi,--- "For I, HASHEM, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, you have not perished."?

In any case, I will pick up from this verse in my next post. You are on a correct path, but tending toward being a suicide driver off a cliff with:

(Malachi 3:7 continued) …but you said, "With what have we to return?"

Allah’s answer; with bananas, be ye apes, despised and rejected!

Just one tiny little question. Why should Muslims be so fixated on the transgressions of the Jews? So, the Jews didn't observe the Sabbath and killed a JEWISH Prophet or two. What the f*** do you care? Do you Muslims owe us Jews anything for stealing what you wanted from the Jewish Torah and Prophets to create the Quran? Do the Christians owe the Jews anything for stealing from the Jewish Torah and Prophets to create the New Testament? Are you making out of my relatives and people apes, monkeys, and pigs because you Muslims want to Jew us down for a discount or refund? You didn't pay us a g-ddamn thing for your theft. Such a deal.

Moses didn't have a Jewish head for business. He should have demanded from God for the Jews an exclusive pay for pray and Torah franchise for future negotiation with you Muslims and Christians.

Achihud

08-17-2005, 04:43 PM

Achihud, is it a coincidence, or do you understand the Hebrew from my posts trailer which is exactly that verse (3:6) from the Prophet Malachi,--- "For I, HASHEM, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, you have not perished."? Well, I guess it was the right time to bring it up then. :) But yes, it was coincidence.

In any case, I will pick up from this verse in my next post. You are on a correct path, but tending toward being a suicide driver off a cliff with: That was my sarcastic way to prove that the god of Israel could never have said that of any jews at any time because He does not change his attitude towards jewish people EVER. He’s as reliable as a god of truth can be. Allah on the other hand, well…"bananas".

andak01

08-18-2005, 04:37 AM

Just one tiny little question. Why should Muslims be so fixated on the transgressions of the Jews? So, the Jews didn't observe the Sabbath and killed a JEWISH Prophet or two. What the f*** do you care?

Excellent question. Read my thread Why Jews Matter to Muslims.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8483

Jews ala Abraham, Moses and other prophets- we acknowledge as rightly guided people. It's a much worse sin for someone among rightly guided people to fall than for a disbeliever or an idolater.

andak01

08-18-2005, 06:59 PM

Full circle if you want yourself to define the beginning, end and middle of the circle for everyone else. I don't suppose anyone could plea to differ with this "bananas" theory of yours.

Mira

08-18-2005, 08:01 PM

andak,

Where did your imam study and who did he study under? Do you know what faith his parents raised him with?

andak01

08-18-2005, 08:35 PM

SteveK

08-19-2005, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by SteveK

Just one tiny little question. Why should Muslims be so fixated on the transgressions of the Jews? So, the Jews didn't observe the Sabbath and killed a JEWISH Prophet or two. What the f*** do you care?

Originally Posted by andak01:

Excellent question. Read my thread Why Jews Matter to Muslims.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8483

Jews ala Abraham, Moses and other prophets- we acknowledge as rightly guided people. It's a much worse sin for someone among rightly guided people to fall than for a disbeliever or an idolater.

Post by andak01 from thread: "Why Jews Matter To Muslims"

But, in Islam, one of if not the worst sins is shirk, worship of multiple gods or Gods other than Allah ( the God of the Old Testament as is made clear in the Quran ). So then, what is a redeemed Christian, but one who worships a thripartide God or even a man-come-God. To a Muslim, that is not an acceptable outcome for redemption. But Abraham, Moses and those who cling to faith and are rightly guided, those are our models.

The other side of the coin is also true, those rightly guided ones who then turn from God and sin receive the harshest words and the harshest treatments. Those who benefit from the covenant are those who stick to it.

andak01,

I do accept that Muslims are worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I also accept that Christians are worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with some great confusion in their use of intermediaries.

Currently, there are Arab nations whose huge populations are using God, through Islamic beliefs, to justify their murder, torture, and international piracy, and destruction of Israel and the Jews. I certainly think that the vast majority of these oppressed Arab masses take great vent, and "re-routing" to their anger against their own despicable dictatorial regimes by using Islamic verses against the Jews as sons of pigs, apes, monkeys.
Of course, these oppressed Arab masses also take vent to their anger with Islamic justification for their murder of Jews also. I wouldn't be surprised if these oppressed Arab masses are finding their further justification of murdering Jews, under the dictates of their demented religious Muslim leaders, as being the agents of God in punishing the Jews. And, all through this, these filthy animal Arab dictators continue with their treacheries against their own people, while using the Jews as their smokscreen.

However, the santification of the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is our topic.

You are making the point that real Muslims look to the leadership of the Jews as rightly guided people. However, we both know what is the current sad reality of such leadership by the Jews.

What kind of spiritual leadership do you expect from the Jews?

You might also want to read the Prophet Malachi. The book of Malachi is quite short and crystal clear. Achihud has selected an excellent reference here about what spiritual leadership for and by the Jews should be about.

andak01

08-19-2005, 04:28 AM

Currently, there are Arab nations whose huge populations are using God, through Islamic beliefs, to justify their murder, torture, and international piracy, and destruction of Israel and the Jews.

I don't see that they are having a lot of success. And I don't believe that the destruction of a people is an Islamic belief. Everything necessary to be Muslim is listed below.

Islam has 5 pillars and 6 beliefs. The 5 pillars are:

Declaration of Faith
Prayer
Fasting
Charity
Pilgrimage

No destruction of the Jews and Israel there.

The 6 beliefs or tenets of faith are:

Faith in the Unity of God
Faith in Allah's Angels
Faith in Allah's Prophets
Faith in Allah's Revealed Books (including the Torah)
Belief in Life After Death
Belief in Divine Decree

http://islam.about.com/blintrob.htm

I certainly think that the vast majority of these oppressed Arab masses take great vent, and "re-routing" to their anger against their own despicable dictatorial regimes by using Islamic verses against the Jews as sons of pigs, apes, monkeys.

Such was the case in the days of the Nazis among Lutherans and Catholics. However, recall, it wasn't the majority of Christians that felt that way. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are harmless people trying to feed their families. It really doesn't take a lot of terrorists to take the headlines. How many were involved in the London bombings? 30? 100? I don't think you could have more than around 20 in a mission before the secret leaks out. How many London bombings have there been? If you multiply that out and figure that 100 plots were stopped per year since 2001, that gives you what 6000 terrorists in all England (assuming that there are 20 per plot, never the same 20, that none were caught or killed and that 100 plots per year were hatched). There are around 8.7 million Muslims living in England. What percentage of 8.7 million is 6000?

Of course, these oppressed Arab masses also take vent to their anger with Islamic justification for their murder of Jews also.

As I have shown, there is no more Islamic justification for murdering Jews than there is Christian justification. Keep the unemployed mobs off the streets and the TV cameras and press away from soap box ranters and you would see a great decline in such hatred. But there is a third important factor. These governments are doing nothing to stop this diversion from a focus on their own corruption.

What kind of spiritual leadership do you expect from the Jews?

Jews like Abraham and Moses never stop giving. It couldn't be too much of a stretch for a Muslim to belief that a modern Jew has the intention of following that path.

On the other hand, looking around and at history, I'd have to say that the bell curve both among Jews and Muslims rises at hypocrisy.

SteveK

08-19-2005, 04:57 AM

... There are around 8.7 million Muslims living in England. What percentage of 8.7 million is 6000?

As I have shown, there is no more Islamic justification for murdering Jews than there is Christian justification. ....

Jews like Abraham and Moses never stop giving. It couldn't be too much of a stretch for a Muslim to belief that a modern Jew has the intention of following that path.

On the other hand, looking around and at history, I'd have to say that the bell curve both among Jews and Muslims rises at hypocrisy.

andak01,

I only wish that it were so simple to reduce these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates to a relatively select few, and then eliminate them.
But, these Arab vermin can hide behind very big families of their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, teachers, spiritual leaders, and right up to protection from their own dictatorial regimes. We are talking about Arab nations that want Israel destroyed and the Jews dead, and not just about some organized crime syndicates. Islam has certainly been put to effective use for this end... ALLAH OOO AKBAR...BOOM!!!

I don't know of any Christian nations now who are advocating the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews. This modern day distinction seems to be among the Arab nations. These "Palestineans" are nothing more than proxies for this objective.

If you are speaking about real Jewish Torah leadership, then you must know that such leadership will no longer speak about Jews being even better Jews in Brooklyn than in Jerusalem. You must know that a real Jewish Torah leadership will be the the level of an Israeli Government. You don't expect any real Jewish Torah leadership to operate from a little Jewish "Vatican" in Brooklyn, do you?

andak01

08-19-2005, 05:56 AM

I don't know of any Christian nations now who are advocating the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews.

What advantage would Christians derive from the destruction of the main wedge to Arab unification? How would the west control oil resources or the economy or the world's military without reducing the Arab states to a bunch of squabbling figureheads? What better way to do that than to keep Israel right where they (England and America) put it in the first place?

The solution is to allow the Arab states some sort of civilized retreat that doesn't involve Israel. Creating democracies isn't going to do it if the first act of a voting people is to go to war with Israel.

SteveK

08-19-2005, 06:26 AM

What advantage would Christians derive from the destruction of the main wedge to Arab unification? How would the west control oil resources or the economy or the world's military without reducing the Arab states to a bunch of squabbling figureheads? What better way to do that than to keep Israel right where they (England and America) put it in the first place?

The solution is to allow the Arab states some sort of civilized retreat that doesn't involve Israel. Creating democracies isn't going to do it if the first act of a voting people is to go to war with Israel.

andak01,

I want to change the subject and talk about the sanctification of The Living God of Israel in the sight of the nations by a real Jewish Torah Israeli Government also acting as the spiritual role model for the Muslims.
Some Jewish religious movement headquartered in New York doesn't fit the bill.

Actually, it's not a change of subject. It's exactly on topic. You have extricated the Jews from being sons of monkeys and pigs from earlier Islamic verse, and brought them to their true Islamic purpose as international spiritual role models,--- if only the Jews would ever grow up again and fill those shoes.

I am eager to see your development of this topic. I couldn't possibly have misunderstood your true focus here, right?

achaaban

08-19-2005, 11:25 AM

andak01, achaaban, and Achihud,

Just one tiny little question. Why should Muslims be so fixated on the transgressions of the Jews? .

I hope that you are not really lump summing me with this religion that is called Islam, or these people you call Muslims, because I am not and I think that it is all a bunch of baloney.

Mohamed never said that he is coming with a new book called the Koran that should be applied as the Muslims law; Mohamed said that the only law is the Torah. The Koran is a clarification to what came in the Torah. So where are the Muslims and the Muslim law in this picture?

SteveK

08-19-2005, 12:00 PM

I hope that you are not really lump summing me with this religion that is called Islam, or these people you call Muslims, because I am not and I think that it is all a bunch of baloney.

Mohamed never said that he is coming with a new book called the Koran that should be applied as the Muslims law; Mohamed said that the only law is the Torah. The Koran is a clarification to what came in the Torah. So where are the Muslims and the Muslim law in this picture?

Hi achaaban,

You think that Islam is a bunch of baloney?

You say that Mohammed wrote the Quran as kind of a "Talmud" to explain the Torah, which is the true law of the Muslims, just like the Torah is the true law of the Jews.

And, you think that Islam is a bunch of baloney?

Do you think that the Torah is a bunch of baloney also?

Do you believe in the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

OK. So.

andak01 says that the Muslims are really wanting to follow the spiritual leadership of the Jews (when the Jews come back to God, and reclaim their status as truly his Chosen People, a Holy Nation, and a Kingdom of Priests )

achihud differentiates between the God of Israel as the true God, and Allah as something else. Although, I tend to accept that Muslims do worship Allah
as the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You have nailed it. Islam is Torah Judaism (but the Quran as the substitute for the Talmud) with another Prophet,Tzaddik and Rebbe by the name of Mohammed.

Nu???

andak01

08-19-2005, 12:21 PM

SteveK

08-19-2005, 01:12 PM

I think we are in enough accord here that we might finally (God knows after years of trying) have a discussion that doesn't end up with any of the parties being called monkeys or apes. :D

I wouldn't exactly agree that Islam is Torah Judaism, but it's close enough that we shouldn't be killing each other and disrespecting each other over the differences. G-d isn't going to ask us on the day of Judgement what we called Him or what we call ourselves, it's our actions and what is in our hearts that count.

Hi andak01,

But, I'm desecrating the Sabbath now by posting, and this thread was started in 2003 about such a subject, and was revived and you know the rest....

OK. I think that we are in agreement enough that we can get into discussing the sanctification of the Living God of Israel from the Jewish and Islamic standpoint. What I will present will of course present to you some monumental conflicts like such things as the Temple must eventually come back where two of your Mosques are now located. But, these can be made into minor details. Raising the conscience of the world to the level of such fear and awe in God is the first priority required by spirtual leaders first. All of Torah is nothing absolutely nothing without the fear of Heaven. I suspect that Islam holds the same view about the Quran.

By the way, the Christians believe in the Messiah as Jesus. The Jews believe in the Messiah as a descendant of King David through King Solomon,but we don't know who or when. What is the Muslim belief about the God appointed leader for the redemption? And, the Christians put Jesus as the King of the Jews. The Davidic descendant would also be a King of the Jews. Here there is some compatability between Christian and Jewish beliefs in that Israel is the central place for a Jewish Kingdom under God. How does Islam fit in here?

achaaban

08-19-2005, 01:59 PM

Hi achaaban,

You think that Islam is a bunch of baloney?

You say that Mohammed wrote the Quran as kind of a "Talmud" to explain the Torah, which is the true law of the Muslims, just like the Torah is the true law of the Jews.

And, you think that Islam is a bunch of baloney?

Do you think that the Torah is a bunch of baloney also?

Do you believe in the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

OK. So.

What I mean with Islam is a modern entity called Islam; this entity is not really related to what Muhammad came with. It is a modern entity that started to evolve in the late nineteenth and became powerful during the twentieth century. This modern day Islam has a claim to a divine right to fight the Jews and the Christians. In today's Islam there are people who are called Ben Laden, HAMAS, and Hezbollah. There are also these bunches of clergies, called the Imams, who are claiming divine rights to interpret the Koran and issue fatwas that have the power of the divine word. This is the meaning of Islam today.

Muhammad and the Koran is one thing and Islam and the Muslims is another. Muhammad and the Koran happened to exist in history so there is no escape of talking about them within the context of the modern day religion of Islam that the so called Muslims claim to be followers of Muhammad.

On the contrary, today's Muslims really do not follow Muhammad’s Koran as if it is the Talmud of the Torah. That is what Muhammad said it was. Today’s Muslims follow another Talmud that is the Talmud of the fours schools of Sunni thought Shafi, Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali, and one Jaafari school for the Shiite. They are an interpretation of the Koran, Hadith and various historic events that eventually created precedents to create an Islamic law similar to that of the Talmud, but this is not about the Torah anymore, this is about a new book called the Koran. These Islamic schools that create 5 sects of followers of Muhammad follow in some cases fundamentally controversial counter positions on same issues. All these schools were documented during the Abbasid Dynasty during the 10th century AD. The Muslims of today also follow the invention of Hadith, which was compiled 250 years after the death of Muhammad and is supposed to be the things that Muhammad have said and done!!!! .

So to answer your questions, I do not think that Muhammad and the Koran were baloney, they did exist historically; I see Mohamed is talking about the Torah and the people of Israel and that is it.

Islam of today follows a school of thought that was established after the death of Muhammad, by people other than Muhammad. The Muslims of today do not really believe that the Torah is the real Torah; they believe that the Koran is a replacement of the Torah, when Muhammad never said so.

SteveK

08-19-2005, 02:25 PM

... I see Mohamed is talking about the Torah and the people of Israel and that is it.

Islam of today follows a school of thought that was established after the death of Muhammad, by people other than Muhammad. The Muslims of today do not really believe that the Torah is the real Torah; they believe that the Koran is a replacement of the Torah, when Muhammad never said so.

Hi achaaban,

If from tomorrow a National Torah Government will be installed in Israel, then how should the Muslim world relate to us Jews according to the messages of Mohammed and the Quran? anadak01 says that Islam is not exactly Torah Judaism. But, we are talking about unity under God. There is one Torah and one law for all the Jews and the converts. A National Torah Government in Israel is about unity and one Torah and one Law. It's not about a coordinating committee of all the current Jewish religious groups and Rabbinic dynasties. All this divisiveness of the current Jewish religious groups and Rabbinic dynasties to the unity of the Jewish People will be finished. And, a National Torah Government in Israel is not about "religious pluralism" either.
It's not about "interfaith" coordination. There is one faith in The Living God of Israel, and one Torah Law for the Nation.

This National Torah Leadership for a united Jewish People was started by Moses.

What kind of relationship are we talking about here between the Muslim world and a National Torah Leadership in Israel which would take its precedence from the time of Moses, and with consideration to the adherence to the messages of Mohammed and the Quran?

achaaban

08-19-2005, 02:36 PM

Hi andak01,

Here there is some compatability between Christian and Jewish beliefs in that Israel is the central place for a Jewish Kingdom under God. How does Islam fit in here?

My understanding of the Koran is that the people of Israel are also at the center of the world. The Koran clearly talks about the people of Israel’s return to the Aqsa mosuqe and rule over it. The Koran agrees with too many premises that are actually Zionist. The Koran seems to be talking more about the journey of the people of Israel, than the Kingdom of God. But it clearly states that the people of Israel will be the rulers of the first temple and then they will be tested to choose between being good or bad.

So the Koran is in agreement with the centrality of the people of Israel/Israel to the world/kingdom of god. The Muslims of today are not on agreement with this part as they are actually fighting against the Jews in Jerusalem, and the return of the Jews to Israel.

SteveK

08-19-2005, 02:54 PM

... So the Koran is in agreement with the centrality of the people of Israel/Israel to the world/kingdom of god. The Muslims of today are not on agreement with this part as they are actually fighting against the Jews in Jerusalem, and the return of the Jews to Israel.

Hi achaaban,

Well,what we have today are a whole lot of synagogues and mosques and respective leaders of a number of religious movements who are in competition for power. The situation today is what produces dictatorial theocracies.
Any one Jewish religious group today is not prepared to take on National Torah leadership and command the respect of the other religious groups to integrate themselves into one unified Torah leadership,--- let alone to command the respect of the Israeli People to bring about such a National Torah Leadership. Jerusalem is now only the playground for rival Jewish, Muslim, and Christian religious groups, and personalities. Again, anti-religious types have a valid concern over the emergence of dictatorial theocracies.

And, it all started with the Jews from Moses as one National Torah Leadership with one Torah and one Law for one united Jewish People.

achaaban

08-19-2005, 03:09 PM

Hi achaaban,

If from tomorrow a National Torah Government will be installed in Israel, then how should the Muslim world relate to us Jews according to the messages of Mohammed and the Quran?

What kind of relationship are we talking about here between the Muslim world and a National Torah Leadership in Israel which would take its precedence from the time of Moses, and with consideration to the adherence to the messages of Mohammed and the Quran?

If the Muslim World really believes in Muhammad and the Koran, then there should be no conflict in here, the Torah is the law that will unite people under one God.

The Koran is talking about the Torah, it is not in conflict with the law of the Torah.

The Relationship with the Muslim world, however, is not a relationship with people who believe in the law of the Torah, because the Muslims of today are not derived from the Torah, they invented their own law.

SteveK

08-19-2005, 03:29 PM

If the Muslim World really believes in Muhammad and the Koran, then there should be no conflict in here, the Torah is the law that will unite people under one God.

The Koran is talking about the Torah, it is not in conflict with the law of the Torah.

The Relationship with the Muslim world, however, is not a relationship with people who believe in the law of the Torah, because the Muslims of today are not derived from the Torah, they invented their own law.

Achaaban,

THe hour is very late now in Israel, so I must sign off. Tomorrow I will not post until the Sabbath ends about 8:00 P.M. here in Israel. I will be thinking further. All these religious groups of Jews and Muslims and Christians are working against God, and not for Him as much as they would have us believe.

We are into a swampland because we are discussing the issues from the bottom up. So, it would be better to take it from the top down with Moses being the standard for uniting people under God and His Torah.

Those participating in this thread will certainly know how to bring Muhammed and the Quran into the picture.

We are agreed that unity of people under God and Torah is the objective.
I don't know how Moses would handle the challenges of today from what started out as a unified approach.

You see all the trouble that the Jews caused by not following God and Torah and staying unified as one sovereign People? Instead of bringing people in unity under God and Torah, the Jews created a spiritual vacuum that was filled by Jesus and his followers, and Muhammed and his followers.

The atheists and idolators on this forum are correct about all the problems that have been caused by religions. It wasn't supposed to be an anarchy of
religious movements and personalities. It was to be nations integrating the Living God of Israel and State. God is not about religious movements. And, quite frankly, religious movements are not really about God. Religious movements are about power grabbing by people and using God. Moses was not just the greatest of all the prophets,- he was also the greatest of national leaders for a unfied people under God and Torah.

Have a pleasant day.

Mira

08-19-2005, 04:48 PM

My imam was born in Pakistan. Both his son's, raised here and in Pakistan are religious scholars as well as having memorized all 114 surahs of the Quran. But each of the three exhibits a different facet of Islam. The father calls himself Sufi and stresses the heart and the community aspects of Islam. His eldest son has a degree in hadith studies from Saudi and lives in Medina. He is the most traditional and intellectual. The other son is brilliant at understanding Islam through a western viewpoint with a thorough understanding of American culture.

I would not call myself Sufi (although the writing of Rumi was something that first drew me to Islam) and don't believe in taking a single teacher. I see an advantage to being in a culture with no particular ties to Islam. I am less likely to make cultural additions to the religion.

I love Rumi too. The great mystics have an ability to use the disciplines in their respective traditions to transcend them. You are very fortunate to have learned from a living holistic model of Islam. I think those qualities are reflected in your own writing, and I envy the equilibrium that you appear to have achieved between the soul and mind as well as the self-confidence you demonstrate for your faith and the path you have chosen for developing your faith.

I always heard growing up that Islam and Judaism are strikingly similar, but I couldn't see that from reading the Quran or from reading the rants of angry Muslims on the various message boards. I read some of the writings of supposedly respected Islamic scholars on Islam Online about the Jews and they all use various interpretive devices that are similar to the replacement theology of early Christianity. Of course, many Christians still do support such doctrines, but I've read the NT, and despite all of the chastisements of the Jewish leadership during the days of Jesus, you have to stretch what's written in there pretty far to arrive at the kind of theological anti-semitism that was used to justify the persecution of Jews. Anyway, I've read many of your posts over the past couple of years, and it has always struck me that they could have been written by a learned Jew, and so I wondered how much of that is the training you've received since converting to Islam, and how much of it is just a product of you being the person who you are? And why is it that when I read what you write, I can relate not only to what you are saying theologicaly, but I understand your method of interpretation? I wish Oh Jerusalem would have stayed on the board because I think the two of you would have gone far together.

Achihud

08-19-2005, 04:51 PM

Full circle if you want yourself to define the beginning, end and middle of the circle for everyone else. I don't suppose anyone could plea to differ with this "bananas" theory of yours. Well, if you have no reasonable argument to confront a 100% contradiction between Allah and the god of Israel, maybe it’s time to perform a self-conjuring chant; "there’s no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet."

It’s the only thing muslims have anyway, that and foam on their mouths when they have a need to shout louder due to lack of 'reason' Allah supposed to have given them. And after the shouting comes the violence.

Achihud

08-19-2005, 04:59 PM

I do accept that Muslims are worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. SteveK, I should think that two truths from Tanach should be enough to expose one Qu’ran 'truth' which contradicts both. If two truths are not enough than a thousand truths from Tanach won’t matter either. If you really believe that a one-god-claim out of the blue could be enough to be identified with the god of Israel then I’de take it you consider the Qu’ran to be falsified in this whole Qu’ran fish tale?

That would be funny because if there is any contradiction to be found between Tanach and Qu’ran, it is Tanach which is to be considered as falsified. Falsification in Qu’ran is out of the question in Islamic World.

andak01

08-19-2005, 10:33 PM

Well, if you have no reasonable argument to confront a 100% contradiction between Allah and the god of Israel, maybe it’s time to perform a self-conjuring chant; "there’s no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet."

If you don't know the Shahada to translate it, then don't be telling me what else you know that I don't.

The last part of the phrase "wa Muhammadan rasooloola" translates to and Muhammad is his messenger. The word for prophet is nabi and does not appear in that phrase.

Achihud

08-20-2005, 04:39 AM

If you don't know the Shahada to translate it, then don't be telling me what else you know that I don't.

The last part of the phrase "wa Muhammadan rasooloola" translates to and Muhammad is his messenger. The word for prophet is nabi and does not appear in that phrase. I give you a 100% contradiction and what do I get in return?
A 0% contextual difference between prophet/messenger.

Great splitting hairs!

SteveK

08-20-2005, 05:51 AM

andak01 and Achihud,

I am posting on Shabbat. But, from next Friday night, I will not. I had stopped being on the computer for weeks before.

If I were to agree that Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then I would also have to declare the same for Christians. I have no reason nor am I looking for any reason to declare such about Muslims or Christians.

But, I'm not focusing on Islam or Christianity. You are focusing on Islam. There is no one here now to focus on Christianity. My focus is on Torah.
I know that you will interject what's relevant along the way concerning issues of Islam. You already clarified that Islam is not divorced from Torah.
And, perhaps, I should refer instead to Muhammed and Quran not being divorced from Torah.

I am interested to know about relevant issues with the Muslims as a National Torah Leadership and Government emerges in Israel. I think that I have a fairly good grasp of the issues in regard to the Christians because I had been dialoging with a group of Christian Zionists for a number of months. As for the Israelis and diaspora Jews, I have even a better grasp of the issues.

Again, what, if any, "messianic" style beliefs does Islam hold?

I think that my concern is best described as raising the personal God (of religion) to the political God (of state). Moses knew the political God and led the Jewish People under Him.

andak01

08-20-2005, 06:51 AM

To answer your questions, I'll have to enter an area of knowledge that I simply don't find useful or constructive. The monotheist religions all end at Judgement Day with some sort of mutually exclusive ending. So let's look at all three. Since they are all somewhat shocking, focusing on one get's us out of balance without a knowledge of the others.

Here are some links to get us started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

ygalg1

08-20-2005, 08:12 AM

Hello andak01

Is there somebody in your family who is Jewish or was?

SteveK

08-20-2005, 08:34 AM

Hi andak01,

Thank you for the web sites in your last post comparing messianic traditions among Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
It was actually just a secondary question.

There should be no surprise for the Jews in comprehending the basics of the Messiance era. What we progressively deviated from since the time of Mount Sinai will be returned to again.

And, it is within the grasp of the Jews today to again be one sovereign united nation under God, and Torah. Then, will God respond then to the Jewish nation as He responded to the ancient Jews? My own faith gives me that confidence that we will be on track again, after thousands of years of deviation, to successfully progressing toward our Biblical mandate as the Holy Nation, the Chosen People, and the kingdom of priests.

First, only national faith, trust, and awe in The Living God of Israel can have any chance to even start to bring about such a transition from the personal God, of the current divisive international Jewish religious movements, to the political God of a united sovereign Torah Nation in Israel.

Even with the enormous depth and breadth of Torah, prophecies, writings,and other Jewish resources, I'm not sure that I would find a better description of the current state of affairs of the Jewish Nation than what is related in a simple child's nursery rhyme:

Humptey Dumptey sat on a wall,
Humptey Dumptey had a great fall;
All the King's horses and all the King's men,
Couldn't put Humptey together again.

achaaban

08-20-2005, 10:01 AM

Well, if you have no reasonable argument to confront a 100% contradiction between Allah and the god of Israel, maybe it’s time to perform a self-conjuring chant; "there’s no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet."

It’s the only thing muslims have anyway, that and foam on their mouths when they have a need to shout louder due to lack of 'reason' Allah supposed to have given them. And after the shouting comes the violence.

As a matter of fact the Koran does not say anywhere that there are Muslims who have to say "there is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet" to actually become believers. "Believers are those who believe in God, his books, his prophets and the last day" according to the Koran.

The Shahadah in its modern day form is nothing but an Imam's invention to indicate that there is something called a Muslim, who has to be a witness that there is a God and that Muhammad is his prophet so that this Muslim joins a cult of Imam made group of people, which is calling for some sort of divine political power; a power that these Imams do not possess under the Koran or the message of Muhammad.

A Muslim according to the Koran is not necessarily a believer, verse (49: 14) says “the Arabs of the dessert said that they have believed, say to them you have not believed but you have submitted (became Muslims) only when faith enters your heart, and you obey God and his messenger you would have believed, God will not belittle your deeds for God is the forgiving and the merciful.”

What Muhammad came with is the Koran I guess and obeying God and Muhammad means obeying the Koran and not what the Imam says the Koran means.

Thus by accepting the idea of the one God and accepting Muhammad as a messenger of God, the Arabs did not become believers, they became only Muslims; that is they have submitted to the idea of a one God, instead of worshiping idols.

The Koran does not reward the Muslims, it actually is talking about a group of believers, who happen to be also Christians, Jews, and Sabians and not necessarily those who think that Muhammad came up with a new religion called Islam.

The second part of the Shahadat is actually problematic and is in direct contradiction with the definition of a believer as it came in the Koran. How could followers of Muhammad be believers and not believe in all the prophets and precisely not to believe in the God of Moses and Abraham, and in the book that was given to Moses from God.

achaaban

08-20-2005, 10:19 AM

Mira

08-20-2005, 10:25 AM

When you say my Imam, I presume that this is a Shiite Imam; how could you believe in an Imam, who is actually requesting people to pay him one fifth of their income and claim that this is a divine right that is owed to this Imam. Muhammad never asked for money to be given to him be any of the believers.

The only money that is to be given according to the Koran is that that you give to the poor. How did the Imam get a right to be receiving an amount that is larger than the Zakat? What does this Imam do with that money, does he pay groups such as Hezbollah to fight against the Jews.

Where is this Imam mentioned in the Koran? And how did this Imam become a powerful entity that has followers who obey the Imam. I thought that people should obey God.

andak is not a Shiite...I was the one who used the term imam first, and only after I looked it up online and it says that for Sunni Islam, it can be used as a name for a learned scholar that is recognized in the community.

achaaban

08-20-2005, 11:40 AM

andak is not a Shiite...I was the one who used the term imam first, and only after I looked it up online and it says that for Sunni Islam, it can be used as a name for a learned scholar that is recognized in the community.

You are right that the Sunni utilize the word Imam, but it is indicative of a different meaning than the Shiites. I was also wondering, when andak, said that his Imam was in Medina Saudi and that he is an Imam who studied the Hadith, which is very Sunni tradition.

The Sunnis utilization of the word Imam, is indicative of the individual who leads prayer, they correctly use the word Shiekh or Alem, meaning an individual who is actually studying religion and is knowledgeable in the Koran and the Hadith as well as the four schools of Sunni religious law. These Sheikhs according to the Sunnis have the same power to the Sunnis as of that of the Shiite Imam.

The Shiites follow the Imam, who according to some Shiites (especially the ones in Pakistan and non-Arab Shiites of Iran and their followers in the Arab world) this Imam is divinely inspired by God, according to Shiites the Imam must be from the descent of Ali the cousin of Muhammad. For the Shiites the Koran is to be interpreted by the Imams across the generations and for every time there is an Imam who is divinely inspired by God.

andak01

08-20-2005, 01:14 PM

Imam, like so many Arabic words, has multiple meanings. By at least one of the definitions I am an imam and my wife is an imam.

i·mam also I·mam ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-mäm)
n. Islam

In law and theology, the caliph who is successor to Muhammad as the lawful temporal leader of the Islamic community.
The male prayer leader in a mosque.
The Muslim worshiper who leads the recitation of prayer when two or more worshipers are present.

A male spiritual and temporal leader regarded by Shiites as a descendant of Muhammad divinely appointed to guide humans.
An earthly representative of the 12 such leaders recognized by the majority form of Shiism.
A ruler claiming descent from Muhammad and exercising authority in an Islamic state.

Any one of the founders of the four schools of law and theology.
An authoritative scholar who founds a school of law or theology.
Used as a title for an imam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Arabic ’imm, leader, imam, from ’amma, to go before, lead. See mm in Semitic Roots.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

imam

n : (Islam) the man who leads prayers in a mosque; for Shiites an imam is a recognized authority on Islamic theology and law and a spiritual guide [syn: imaum]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=imam

SteveK

08-21-2005, 02:17 PM

The Sunnis utilization of the word Imam, is indicative of the individual who leads prayer, they correctly use the word Shiekh or Alem, meaning an individual who is actually studying religion and is knowledgeable in the Koran and the Hadith as well as the four schools of Sunni religious law. These Sheikhs according to the Sunnis have the same power to the Sunnis as of that of the Shiite Imam.

The Shiites follow the Imam, who according to some Shiites (especially the ones in Pakistan and non-Arab Shiites of Iran and their followers in the Arab world) this Imam is divinely inspired by God, according to Shiites the Imam must be from the descent of Ali the cousin of Muhammad. For the Shiites the Koran is to be interpreted by the Imams across the generations and for every time there is an Imam who is divinely inspired by God.

Divinely inspired? What Imam has surpassed the divinely inspired and annointed claims of the Chabad-Lubavitch Jewish religious movement for their deceased Rebbe to rise from the dead to be the King Messiah of the Jews?
Of course, this has been going on now for more than a decade since his passing.

Now, I'm seeing more posters on the sides of city buses here in Tel-Aviv annoucing if we, the Israelis, are ready to receive The King Messiah who will soon be coming,--- with the usual big blowup (no sarcasm intended) portrait of the deceased Chabad-Lubavitch Rebbe.

And, yes, from these Torah observant Jews of Chabad-Lubavitch, as well as from other Torah observant groups of especially Chassidism, I expect must emerge the National Torah Leadership here in Israel of which I speak.
Forget about and Torah leaders emerging from the Jewish relgious movements of the Reform and Conservative, and something else called Reconstructionist.

Any similar example with your Muslim spiritual leaders? Or, do we Jews top the claims of divinely inspired and annointed by God.

andak01

08-21-2005, 04:00 PM

Any similar example with your Muslim spiritual leaders? Or, do we Jews top the claims of divinely inspired and annointed by God.

Sadly probably hundreds if not more throughout history. Al Hakim, a Muslim heretic who destroyed the Holy Sepulchre Church and may have instigated the Crusades is practically diefied by the Druse and certainly was in his own mind. Many Shiite sects grew out of an adoration for a particular imam. The mirabous of west Africa, of whom Muhammad Bamba stands out are sanctified with monuments to them and their images painted on every wall. The Sufis pray to their saints. The list goes on, and it would seem this is typical human behavior, behavior that Islam even warns us about.

achaaban

08-21-2005, 04:11 PM

Any similar example with your Muslim spiritual leaders? Or, do we Jews top the claims of divinely inspired and annointed by God.

The Shiites believe that Ali and his descent through his sons Hassan and Hussein are Imams who are divinely inspired. The twelvers believe that the twelfth Imam who disappeared as a child will come back, and they have a similar story as to that of the Messiah. Most of the Shiites believe that there is an Imam for every generation and those Imams are divinely inspired by God.

Mediocrates

08-21-2005, 04:41 PM

Cf. Prophet (PRAh-fet) - A religious person who believes he or she is divinely inspired or has communications with said deity. See also; Saint.

andak01

08-21-2005, 10:55 PM

achaaban

08-22-2005, 07:28 AM

There is a big difference between the way Sunnis view Prophets including Muhammad and Saints. Praying to a Prophet would be the highest sin, as would praying to a Saint. Also, a Saint doesn't require a revealed message, a Prophet does.

I doubt that there is any monotheist faith that actually prays for prophets.

Actually, the Koran differentiates between prophets and messengers, messengers are prophets who came with messages from God in the form of books.

However, while you say that it is a sin to pray for prophets, for the Sunnis, I see the Sunnis glorification of Muhammad as if he is the only messenger from God, similar to putting him in the position almost similar to God. The Koran on the contrary did not give Muhammad any position that is higher than any other prophet or messenger of God. For the Sunnis it sounds like the follwoing : if God did not tell the followers of Muhammad that they could not presume that the prophet is a God, they would have worshiped Muhammad Just like the Christians claimed that Jesus is actually God.

The Sunnis take the Hadith to be of similar divinity as that of the Koran, the Torah and the Enjil, and other books of God's messengers. The Hadith which is claimed to be the prophet sayings was written 250 years after the death of the prophet. The Sunnis thus believe in a different book than that which was sent by God to Muhammad. The Hadith and the Four Schools of Sunni tradition, these are the books that are divine for the Sunnis.

The Sunnis also presume that the prophet Muhammad and his Shahaba are divinely appointed leaders to a sort of a Global Islamic State. This leadership has a political role to play, this very belief is in contradiction with the Koran, the Koran addressing the prophet has said “remind them for you are here to remind them (about God and the Last day) (88: 21) "you are not to control their affairs”. (88:22)

Mohamed came to Arabia so that he could warn a people who are the inhabitants of Arabia about the existence of the one God and the Last day. He did not come to create a nation of Arabs and Muslims similar to what the Sunnis claim. The Sunnis claim a divine right to a pan-Islamic State, which is modeled according to a state that was actually created by the Rightly Guided Caliphs and not by Muhammad.

This claim is fabricated by some Hadith and interpretations of the Koran those fabrications are far from the essence of the Koran and the message of Muhammad.

The Sunnis therefore, do place the Caliphs in a position that is almost divine in the way they believe in Sunnism, Sunnism is actually a religion that has politicized the message of Muhammad, and has made all Sunni actions based on a new invention called political Islam.

SteveK

08-22-2005, 01:26 PM

The Sunnis claim a divine right to a pan-Islamic State, which is modeled according to a state that was actually created by the Rightly Guided Caliphs and not by Muhammad.

This claim is fabricated by some Hadith and interpretations of the Koran those fabrications are far from the essence of the Koran and the message of Muhammad.

The Sunnis therefore, do place the Caliphs in a position that is almost divine in the way they believe in Sunnism, Sunnism is actually a religion that has politicized the message of Muhammad, and has made all Sunni actions based on a new invention called political Islam.

Hi achaaban,

So, what was the message of Muhammad concerning not politicizing God?
Did Muhammad's message state in effect that one could and should be just as good a Muslim, if not better, in Brooklyn as one could be in Mecca?

Why is it so essential to Muhammed that God must be separated from state?

And,what is a "Pan-Islamic State"?

What were the overall guiding principles of the Rightly Guided Caliphs for structuring an Islamic state where God was not just sanctified as the personal God, but was sanctified as the political God?

What did Muhammed say about Islam talking as a nation to other nations, and not just as one religion to another religion?

achaaban

08-22-2005, 04:49 PM

Hi achaaban,

So, what was the message of Muhammad concerning not politicizing God?
Did Muhammad's message state in effect that one could and should be just as good a Muslim, if not better, in Brooklyn as one could be in Mecca?

Why is it so essential to Muhammed that God must be separated from state?

There is no “religion” that is called Islam as such according to Muhammad; Muslim is an individual who submits to the will of God. It is a form of faith and not religion. I will define religion as a set of traditions that are accompanied by a religious law that is to be applied over a group of people.

In the Koran it is clearly said that the only religion to God is Islam, meaning the only valid religion is actually the act of submission, there are no traditions that are attached to the practice of submission. The believer is the one who believes in the divinity of the prophets and in the books which came by the messengers of God.

There is only one verse in the whole Koran that talks about the leaders of the believers, and the verse is talking to the believers and what they should never do with their leaders.

“Do not be corrupt with your money, in your handling it amongst each other, and do not give your money to the leaders so that you intentionally want to take away some people’s money wrongfully when you know. (2:188)

If this is indicative of anything, it is an indication that God is warning the believers about their leadership and corruption that could come out of this leadership.

The Koran does not discuss the politics of Muslims or the leadership of Muslims. The Koran has no political character that is attached to it. God is never discussed in terms of politics, the state or earthly powers.

There is a verse that says however, that the only Kingdome is the Kingdome of God, it could also mean that the only King is God. This verse clearly states that there is no earthly kingdom that is based on religion with a religious leader as its ruler, since the Kingdome of faith is the territory of God.

As well, the last day in the Koran is called the day of religion “Youm el Din”, it is the day when each individual will be asked about his faith. God is also called the owner of the “day of religion”, he God is the only entity that will determine what was the religion of each individual. Each person will be asked about his/her religion on the last day which is the “day of religion”

The fact of the matter that in today’s world the Islamists are actually asking people about their religion, thus taking a task that God have said is “owned” only to God in their own hands. Are the Islamists really followers of Muhammad and the Koran?

And,what is a "Pan-Islamic State"?

A pan-Islamic state is a state that resembles the one that was initiated by Umar when he started the Arab conquest. The Islamists, who believe that Umar is the main political character in Islamic history, also believe that they have a duty to conquest the world and turn it into an Umar model of an Islamic state.

What were the overall guiding principles of the Rightly Guided Caliphs for structuring an Islamic state where God was not just sanctified as the personal God, but was sanctified as the political God?

The answer to this question rotates around Umar's rationale when he decided to invade the land of the Christians and Jews under the Byzantine Empire. The Koran never permitted the invasion of the land of the believers.

In Surat Al Rum, this is indicative of the Byzantine Empire, the Rum is what the Arabs called the Byzantines. In this verse the prophet is talking about the defeat of the Byzantines (Christians) this verse is very interesting it states

The Byzantines have been defeated ( 30:2)
In the farthest land however they shall be victorious (30:3)
In some years to come; this matter is to God before now and after, and that is the day when the believers will rejoice.(30:4)

These verses are promising that the Christians who are the Byzantines will be victorious according to God’s wishes. Once the Byzantines (the Christians )become victorious it will be the day that the believers shall rejoice.

How did the Muslims become the enemies of the Byzantines (European Christians) and what were the criteria that Umar has followed to invade the Byzantine Empire. Umar clearly was not following the Koran. This area I need to research further so that I could accurately answer your question.

What did Muhammed say about Islam talking as a nation to other nations, and not just as one religion to another religion?

I will start by looking at the word umma first, which is mistakenly translated to mean nation or a state. The Koran uses the word umma in various occasions, the most significant of which is the reference to the community of humanity. The Koran says that “Once the community of human beings was one umma (community), then they disagreed; if it was not for the word that had come from the Lord, their disagreements would have been settled” (10:19). The Koran refers to the divisions of the umma of humanity to various communities ummam (plural of umma), these divisions are always referred to in terms of communities. The Koran uses the word umma in other occasions, where it becomes clear that the word umma is not necessarily a community of God-fearing people, for there are verses that speak of a whole umma or several that rejected the messengers that came to them from God (WATT 10-11). These communities join together and make decisions on how they want to be governed; as in the case of the Mithaq. The prophet’s role according to the Mithaq is far from being the chief of the umma or Islamic community. He was regarded as the chief of the immigrants, who count as one clan amongst nine. Apart from being the messenger of God, the prophet was not superior to the other clan chiefs. (WATT)

The Koran clearly states addressing the prophet “remind them for you are their reminder” (88:21) “you are not to control their affairs” (88:22). The various tribes were free to practice their internal affairs; where the prophet would serve as an advisor; group decision making was based on consultations between the various groups.

Muhammad's umma was defined after his migration to Medina. At the arrival of the message of prophet Mohamed, the community of the migrant believers " muhajeroun", and the Jews who inhabited the Medina, drafted a Covenant, known as the Constitution of Medina, or Mithaq Al Medina (620 AD).

Article (1) of the constitution states “This is a document from Mohamed the prophet (governing the relations) between the believers of Quraysh and Yathrib, and those who followed them and joined them and labored with them, (2) They are one community (umma) to the exclusion of all men. (Articles 24-35, 37, 38, 46) “The Jews of various groups belong to the community (umma), and they are to retain their religion; they and the believers are to render help (including Military aid) to one another when it is needed.”

Now I will adress your question about the relationship between nations or shoub. In the Koran the social division of man kind is mentioned by stating and “O Mankind we created you from a male and a female and made you nations and tribes so that you may know each other. The one who will be cherished of you is the righteous, and God will know” (49:13).

Reference to the word umma in today’s Arab World terminology is utilized to mean the English word nation. Nation in Arabic on the other hand means sha’ab, and not umma. The verse from the Koran mentioned above about the social divisions uses the word sho’ub plural for sha’ab to indicate nations. The Arabic translation of the word umma to mean nation instead of sha’ab comes from the conception of nation-state; which does not have a similar word in Arabic. There is however the word doulah which means the State, this state does not have a direct link to the nation. The word doulah meaning State is not mentioned even once in the Koran. In other words there is no state or doulah in the Koran, not an Islamic State and not a State of believers.

The Koran however has abundant reference to the Kingdom of David and Solomon, and they were called Kingdomes and not doulah meaning state. The doulah in the History of Islam only started to exist after Muhammad's death.

Mohamed's umma was based on a constitution between the Jews and the migrant believers " Muhageroun", and that constitution allowed each of these groups freedom of practicing their faith and their affairs. There is no Islamic law that is attached to the believers. The word Muslim is not mentioned once in the Arabic version of this constitution, reference to the migrants with the prophet was clearly the migrant believers.

Again the whole concept of an Islamic State ruled by Islamic law, in which one nation is created by an Islamic leader, invalidates the main idea of creation by God as indicated in the verse above. The verse stresses that people are created in diverse nations and tribes so that they get to know each other, be rightous in their relations to other nations and tribes, and cohabit.

The whole idea of the modern day Islam is based on assimilation and the destruction of nations and civilizations that are different from the Muslims.

Islam calls for totalitarian rule of one man who claims a right of stealing what is owned by God who is the only owner to the “day of religion”

References Watt, W. Montgomery (1968). Islamic Political Thought: the basic concepts. Edinburgh University Press

Constitution of Medina http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/con_medina.htm

SteveK

08-23-2005, 01:55 PM

Hi achaaban,

Thanks for your detailed response.

There is no “religion” that is called Islam as such according to Muhammad; Muslim is an individual who submits to the will of God. It is a form of faith and not religion. I will define religion as a set of traditions that are accompanied by a religious law that is to be applied over a group of people.

The Jewish heritage is about faith and not about packaged portable religion. It's about one Torah law accompanied by traditions, which are to be applied over a united sovereign people in Israel.

In the Koran it is clearly said that the only religion to God is Islam, meaning the only valid religion is actually the act of submission, there are no traditions that are attached to the practice of submission. The believer is the one who believes in the divinity of the prophets and in the books which came by the messengers of God.

The basis to the Jewish faith is contained in the the practice of the 613 Torah commandments,- many of which can't be performed today because no Temple exists.

There is only one verse in the whole Koran that talks about the leaders of the believers, and the verse is talking to the believers and what they should never do with their leaders.

“Do not be corrupt with your money, in your handling it amongst each other, and do not give your money to the leaders so that you intentionally want to take away some people’s money wrongfully when you know. (2:188)

If this is indicative of anything, it is an indication that God is warning the believers about their leadership and corruption that could come out of this leadership.

The Prophet EZEKIEL (34) speaks of such corruption: "Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have tended themselves! ... "

The Koran does not discuss the politics of Muslims or the leadership of Muslims. The Koran has no political character that is attached to it. God is never discussed in terms of politics, the state or earthly powers.

There is a verse that says however, that the only Kingdome is the Kingdome of God, it could also mean that the only King is God. This verse clearly states that there is no earthly kingdom that is based on religion with a religious leader as its ruler, since the Kingdome of faith is the territory of God.

God told Moses shortly before revealing Himself and the Torah to the Jewish People:

EXODUS (19:3-6):

"And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain [Sinai], saying, Thus shalt thou say to the House of Jacob, and tell the Children of Israel; You have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now, therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own treasure from among the peoples; for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak to the Children of Israel."

The reference here to a "kingdom of priests" is interpreted by top Jewish Biblical commentators to mean "ministers" (not the religious kind, but like ministers in government who are under the ruler, the King).

Here God presents Himself as very much expecting to be the politcal God of the Jews with His integration in affairs of State,--- and not the personal functionary of religion.

As well, the last day in the Koran is called the day of religion “Youm el Din”, it is the day when each individual will be asked about his faith. God is also called the owner of the “day of religion”, he God is the only entity that will determine what was the religion of each individual. Each person will be asked about his/her religion on the last day which is the “day of religion”

The fact of the matter that in today’s world the Islamists are actually asking people about their religion, thus taking a task that God have said is “owned” only to God in their own hands. Are the Islamists really followers of Muhammad and the Koran?

Well, Judaism requires even more than just "card-carrying" membership.

A pan-Islamic state is a state that resembles the one that was initiated by Umar when he started the Arab conquest. The Islamists, who believe that Umar is the main political character in Islamic history, also believe that they have a duty to conquest the world and turn it into an Umar model of an Islamic state.

And, how do the Islamists interpret the messages of Muhammed and the Quran to include blood thirsty murder, torture, and international piracy to achieve such an objective?

Reference to the word umma in today’s Arab World terminology is utilized to mean the English word nation. Nation in Arabic on the other hand means sha’ab, and not umma. The verse from the Koran mentioned above about the social divisions uses the word sho’ub plural for sha’ab to indicate nations. The Arabic translation of the word umma to mean nation instead of sha’ab comes from the conception of nation-state; which does not have a similar word in Arabic. There is however the word doulah which means the State, this state does not have a direct link to the nation. The word doulah meaning State is not mentioned even once in the Koran. In other words there is no state or doulah in the Koran, not an Islamic State and not a State of believers.

The Koran however has abundant reference to the Kingdom of David and Solomon, and they were called Kingdomes and not doulah meaning state. The doulah in the History of Islam only started to exist after Muhammad's death.

I think that God made it very clear from EXODUS (19: 3-6) that He expects to be at the head of the affairs of State of the Jewish Nation, and that His Torah is to be the means of governance of the united Sovereign Jewish Nation in Israel. The whole purpose of the EXODUS makes this clear.

And:

Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

But, I can't say now what the modern day implications of all this are for the
"Muslims and Christians who live with you". I don't think that a Torah Nation here in Israel will be about "religious pluralism". A Torah Nation will not be anything about "religion". "Religion" is the nemesis and antithesis to a sovereign nation under God and Torah.

The whole idea of the modern day Islam is based on assimilation and the destruction of nations and civilizations that are different from the Muslims.

Islam calls for totalitarian rule of one man who claims a right of stealing what is owned by God who is the only owner to the “day of religion”

So, how do you get the modern day Muslims to neutralize their current lust for bloody murder, torture, and international piracy through the true messages of Muhammed and the Quran of FAITH? How to bring them to FAITH and get them to uproot power hungry religion?

achaaban

08-24-2005, 12:04 AM

You are welcome SteveK

But, I can't say now what the modern day implications of all this are for the
"Muslims and Christians who live with you". I don't think that a Torah Nation here in Israel will be about "religious pluralism". A Torah Nation will not be anything about "religion". "Religion" is the nemesis and antithesis to a sovereign nation under God and Torah.

We seem to be in agreement on this point. "Religious Pluralism" means religious laws that are in contradiction with one another, thus antagonistic relationship between those Jews and converts, the converts, being Muslim and Christians have converted from paganism to believe in the same God of Abraham and Moses, they must agree with the same one God and the same one law.

So, how do you get the modern day Muslims to neutralize their current lust for bloody murder, torture, and international piracy through the true messages of Muhammed and the Quran of FAITH? How to bring them to FAITH and get them to uproot power hungry religion?

Sadly I can't, these people are living in countries with leadership that supports their lust for murder and torture. This leadership keeps them active so that the leadership could stay in power. It is a vicious circle.

Not only Christians and Jews are the target of these fanatics. These people do not see their own people as their own. You are one of them only if you agree with them that is the criteria of belonging. These people are one track minded, you either agree with them or you are an infidel who deserves to be killed.

The categorization of an infidel could also be another Muslim since these fanatics play the role of God; they claim to have the power to ask people about their “religion”, and to judge people based on their faith. The Islamists are playing the role of God on Earth, and they have the money to destroy all those who disagree with the Islamists version of “religion”.

SteveK

08-24-2005, 02:41 PM

achaaban:

We seem to be in agreement on this point. "Religious Pluralism" means religious laws that are in contradiction with one another, thus antagonistic relationship between those Jews and converts, the converts, being Muslim and Christians have converted from paganism to believe in the same God of Abraham and Moses, they must agree with the same one God and the same one law.

But, the Jews are not a religion, anymore than one would say that an American is living by his "religion" of the U.S. Constitution. Torah is the
governance of the united sovereign Jewish Nation. When the Jews were coming through 2,000 years of exile with the Jewish "religion", it was to preserve their heritage and prayers to return to their ancestral Homeland.
In the face of the prophetic milestone being realized of God's return of the Jews to the Land of Israel, we now find out that millions of these Jews seem to have adopted the model of "religion" using Torah along side their fellow Americans of Christians and Muslims. Moses didn't conceive of any idea that one day Jews could be even better Jews in Brooklyn than in Jerusalem. The Torah was given to the whole Jewish Nation on their way to the Promised Land.

And, now, ironically, all these Jewish religious movements scream for "religious pluralism" for themselves in their home Christian countries. A National Torah Government in Israel would only alienate "Jewish religious movements" like these "Reform Jews" because the model of Torah (if these Reform Jews even know what is Torah) is only what you dance with in your Beverly Hills, California, "Temple", and with your fashions by Gucci and Cartier. Even the concept would blow the Reform Jews' minds that Torah is the governance for the united sovereign Jewish Nation in Israel.

achaaban:

... these people [Muslims] are living in countries with leadership that supports their lust for murder and torture. This leadership keeps them active so that the leadership could stay in power. It is a vicious circle.

Not only Christians and Jews are the target of these fanatics. These people do not see their own people as their own. You are one of them only if you agree with them that is the criteria of belonging. These people are one track minded, you either agree with them or you are an infidel who deserves to be killed.

The categorization of an infidel could also be another Muslim since these fanatics play the role of God; they claim to have the power to ask people about their “religion”, and to judge people based on their faith. The Islamists are playing the role of God on Earth, and they have the money to destroy all those who disagree with the Islamists version of “religion”.

But, how can these Arab rulers and their Muslim collaborators get away with twisting the messages of Muhammed and the Quran to the ultimate despicable degree of justifying their blood thirsty murder, torture, and international piracy?

This might be symptomatic of people not attaching themselves truly to faith in God, but instead attaching themselves to their Arab rulers or Muslim religious leaders as the divinely appointed intermediaries of God, which in Judaism is forbidden. Of course, such submission by these already oppressed Arab masses would be rather efectively enforced by threat of their otherwise being sentenced to some public execution, etc. So, even God, Himself, is under suspicion and a threat to these Arab regimes.

Islam is what can be fed to these oppressed Arab masses in their mothers' milk to produce a populace in submission to the will of these monster Arab dictators for world dominance. We're talking about Biblical proportions of evil here among these Arab nations,---- especially.

Achihud

09-06-2005, 04:56 PM

...

Achihud

12-06-2005, 04:40 PM

"Bananas" full circle! Killer-post from rasulmusa to stay up to date in this matter:
http://www.ummah.net/forum/showpost.php?p=844183&postcount=3

I addition: #19 in there I would call a sane post from conrack7

andak01

12-07-2005, 03:28 AM

Rasulmusa is Yishai, an Israeli poster from CharlieRose. He admitted as much himself over there. MEMRI, which he quotes from extensively was founded by a former Israeli colonel and is used to cherry pick articles from Arab press in order to embarrass the Arabs. It doesn't surprise me that you two find a lot in common. Rasulmusa has since been banned from ummah.

Mediocrates

12-07-2005, 05:54 AM

In my world we call that a target rich environment. It would be no different than an Arab agency looking only at Fox News or The Guardian or the 700 Club as evidence of the patent stupidity of the West. In some ways the face of political and media oriented Islam in the middle east is their own worst enemy. They trot out these maniacs who foam at the mouth and then use anyone's criticism against them as proof that we hate Islam. As if someone who calls for shahid bombings against mall shoppers is going to escape opprobrium.