Is Torah Law Followed in Israel?

[Haifa]

Is the torah law applied in Israel? For example, do you get stoned for for committing adultary?

Or is there *any* punishment for doing these things?

Also, are people allowed to worship other gods in Israel? say some pagan god?

[Vic]

One can do better even for trolling.

[ibrodsky]

Judaism and Christianity were modernized starting with Maimonides nearly a millenium ago.

Islam remains virtually unchanged since the 7th century.

The only countries where they stone people to death are countries run by barbarians, such as Iran.

[Haifa]

One cant.


This thread is based on what Micah said HERE (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=15516#post15516)


originally posted by Micah
Certain laws even non-Jews have to obey in Israel, such as the prohibition against idolatry. They also aren't allowed to work on Shabbat.

and what danholo said HERE (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=15519#post15519)


originally posted by danholo




originally posted by Micah

Certain laws even non-Jews have to obey in Israel, such as the prohibition against idolatry. They also aren't allowed to work on Shabbat.




Idolatry is prohibited in the seven Noahide laws.

[ibrodsky]

But the fact is that there are many people working in Israel on Shabbat.

The newspaper Ha'aretz reports news 24/7. This can be seen on the Internet.

If you go here:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/

right now (Friday night) you will see that there are reports filed after sundown.

Many other people work on Shabbat in Israel. There are no "religious police" in Israel as there are in several Muslim countries.

[sharonbn]

ibrodsky,

The official law in Israel prohibits work on Shabbat and religious holidays.
Any business that wishes to operate on Shabbat must get a special permit from the ministry of labor and welfare.
Some areas of business (like hospitals, restaurants, etc.) are excluded from the law.
Any business that is caught operating at the aforemetioned period is subject to fine. In fact, it was published that the ministry of labor sends Druze inspectors on Shabbat to fine supermarkets that are open in Tel Aviv.

I assume Haaretz got this permit.

[ibrodsky]

sharonb,

Thanks for confirming that there are many people in Israel working on Shabbat. Clearly Micah was wrong about non-Jews being prohibited from working on Shabbat. There were people working in the hotels, too, both times I visited.

Not that many years ago, it was illegal for retail businesses in my state to be open on Sunday.

[fred]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
There are no "religious police" in Israel as there are in several Muslim countries.
Actually there are. Our religious police were handing out tickets to restaurants during Passover this year in Tel Aviv. Their 'crime'? Serving leavened bread to the public. I kid you not! The religious ministry is expanding their scope of activity through their relulatory authority. It's a bit scarey.
fred

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by fred

Actually there are. Our religious police were handing out tickets to restaurants during Passover this year in Tel Aviv. Their 'crime'? Serving leavened bread to the public. I kid you not! The religious ministry is expanding their scope of activity through their relulatory authority. It's a bit scarey.
fred

Nonsense!!

There are laws in this country, like nantional hollydays, national official religion ect...

Sunday is a full working day in Israel, Shabbath isn't. Christmess isn't an official holyday in Israel, Passover or Sukott are. Israel is a nantional Jewish state. As much as Irland is a national Irish state with irish chatolism as national religion. We, too have laws that infoce or support that the fact that Jewdaism is the national official religion.

Try getting an abortion in Irland, try mentioning the Pope in Norway, see then, what would happen next...

If someone dosn't like that, he can always pack up and leave. Or, he can change things through the Knesset in a proper democratic fasion. Most israelis support such laws.

Secondly, there is costuomer rights. No Jewish costumer would like to unknowingly have a ham sandwich with a fake "kosher" stamp on it, nor would a Jew eat, unknowingly in a resturant with a fake Koser authorasation on it. Not all Israelis are like fred, by they must have rights too, one musnt rob Jews from thier rights and espacialy not to mislead costoumers.

[fred]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Nonsense!!
Most israelis support such laws.
Not all Israelis are like fred, by they must have rights too, one musnt rob Jews from thier rights and espacialy not to mislead costoumers.
Gilgamesh - Why must a simple statement of fact become a personal attack?
You are wrong.
The law was passed in 1993 forbidding the serving of hametz (bread, grain products, whisky etc) in cafes and restaurants during Passover. The man who recently ordered the hunt for hametz offenders was Eli Yishai, the interior minister from the Shas party. One offender was Dudi Bar-Chen the owner of the Trio Cafe in Jerusalem was among the many who were fined for serving Hametz during Passover. For the full story go to:
Report of Passover Police (http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,472990,00.html)
There's also a reprint of an AP report at:
AP report on Passover Police (http://www.la.utexas.edu/chenry/usme/sp2001/media/msg00021.html)
And most Israelis decidedly do NOT support such laws. As you very well know the vast majority of Israelis are secular and do not follow religious dietary law. The overall percentage of non-kosher restaurants has been increasing in recent years. I happen to be someone who keeps Kosher but I do not support the government enforcing my choices on people in public restaurants.
fred

[Vic]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Try getting an abortion in Irland, try mentioning the Pope in Norway, see then, what would happen next...In the latter case - nothing. It's called "freedom of opinion" and "freedom of worship". Ever heard of it? ;)

Norway has a Catholic minority, I have never heard any complaints about their situation.

Ireland's stand on abortion is, in fact, a serious problem. About the only case of a religiously-based state regulation with far-reaching consequences in a EU country, and as such under perpetual attack both from inside and outside. It can be predicted that it won't last long until the resp. Irish laws will be adjusted to common norms.

----------------------------

Originally posted by fred
And most Israelis decidedly do NOT support such laws. As you very well know the vast majority of Israelis are secular and do not follow religious dietary law. What is it that, in your opinion, prevents changing the laws the way Gilgamesh suggests:

Or, he can change things through the Knesset in a proper democratic fasion.?

[ibrodsky]

Fred,

The original claim was that everyone in Israel must obey Jewish observances.

Facts are facts: both Jews and non-Jews work on Shabbat.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seriously doubt that a restaurant in an Arab village is prohibited from serving leavened bread on Passover.

While I don't agree with fining Tel Aviv restaurants for serving leavened bread on Passover, the majority has the right to determine which days are official holidays. To call people who hand out fines for such offenses "religious police" is absurd. Certain activities may be prohibited in public on certain days, but there is no requirement that everyone obey Jewish observances.

Countries with religious police include Iran and Afghanistan under the Taliban. In those societies, everyone is/was required to obey Muslim observances. While there are non-Muslims in places like Iran, they are severely persecuted.

The punishment for atheism in Iran is death. That is what "religious police" means.

[Vic]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
The original claim was that everyone in Israel must obey Jewish observances. The original question was about stoning female rape victims ;) I'm curious for your assessments: have you ever met a single person in the West who would seriously expect this to happen in Israel? Because I haven't, despite all the talk about Israel in other respects.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by fred
The law was passed in 1993 forbidding the serving of hametz (bread, grain products, whisky etc) in cafes and restaurants during Passover. The man who recently ordered the hunt for hametz offenders was Eli Yishai, the interior minister from the Shas party. One offender was Dudi Bar-Chen the owner of the Trio Cafe in Jerusalem was among the many who were fined for serving Hametz during Passover. Dudi Bar Hen broke the law and probably fined because he deserved it. Also, I don't believe the law covers non-kosher restorants, like arab owned restorants. In this case, poor little dudi knowingly lied to his cotoumers by pretending to serve kosher food while in fact he wasn't. In EVERY normal country dudi was supposed to be sent to jail. People do not like to be deceived. Misleading a costuomer so he buy a product with a property which doesn't exist is a fellany. A Jew who want's to eat non kosher, can find one very easly, a restorant that openly declares it sells non-kosher. But, being assuming to be kosher while selling non kosher, it a fellany! Dudi had to go to jail, not just paying a fine!

Fact is, the majority of Jews in Israel, are not secular to the degree of finding kosher restorants disturbing or offensive. The majority of Jews in Israel rather eat Kosher. Israel is a democracy and the Knesset sits represent truly the ratio of kosher to non-kosher costoumers. The far left anti Jewdasim members of knesset include the Arabs (10 seats) Meretz (10 seats) and Change party (6 seats) and the traitor Bronfmann (2 seats). Thats all! The rest (92 MK) do not having any problems having kosher restorants in the land of Jews!

Lets face it fred, your peole are fringe minority of extremists.

Originally posted by fred
As you very well know the vast majority of Israelis are secular and do not follow religious dietary law. the majority of israelis is secular, I am secular myself BTW, yet I keep kosher, and so are the majority of Israelis, most of the time. AND THEY HATE BEING LIED TO BY PAGENS LIKE DUDI!!!

Originally posted by fred
The overall percentage of non-kosher restaurants has been increasing in recent years. Have you counted them?
Russian born Israelis and a growing community of Christians as well as well-to-do are looking for fine food in Israel and can afford it. French or Chinies cuisine is both expensive and non kosher.

They SEEMINGLY shift in the percetage of non kosher restorants prove only of the shift of the demands of Israelis who can pay. Its only show where the money is, and what the "money wants", but its a poor mesure to the will of the whole nation.

Originally posted by fred
I happen to be someone who keeps Kosher but I do not support the government enforcing my choices on people in public restaurants.fred
There are right thinking atheists, but I have never ever heard of left extremist kosher-keepers. such a thing is truly freakish.

[fred]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Fred, The original claim was that everyone in Israel must obey Jewish observances.
Right, we all know that this is not the case, although our ultra-orthodox would like it to be. However one of the major divisions in Israeli today is between observant Jews and non-observant. As our religious establishment has gained more political power in recent years there is much more tension between the communities. Within neighborhoods and towns that are mostly or all orthodox they do prohibit driving on the streets on Shabbat, and other public activies. I am not necessarity against this so long as these regulations are confined to communities with an overwhelming majority of orthodox. And I say this as someone who keeps many Shabbat observances. I love that all the shops are closed on Shabbat and few public facilities are open. I can chill out with my family, go to synagog etc. The major problems start when orthodox people start moving into an otherwise secular community and then demand that community standards be changed. It's been hapenning a lot lately

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Correct me if I am wrong, but I seriously doubt that a restaurant in an Arab village is prohibited from serving leavened bread on Passover. Correct, because our religious law only requires Jews not to eat leavened products during Passover.

Originally posted by ibrodsky
While I don't agree with fining Tel Aviv restaurants for serving leavened bread on Passover, the majority has the right to determine which days are official holidays.
I agree entirely. One of the reasons I love living here is that the rhythm of the workweek and the seasons is governed by Jewish tradition.

Originally posted by ibrodsky

Well, perhaps we should put them more in the category of parking enforcement officers. They hand out tickets for civil offences against religious law. So they are similar to traffic police, not 'real cops'. But it could be a slippery slope, and in a democracy we have to be vigilant.

Originally posted by ibrodsky Countries with religious police include Iran and Afghanistan under the Taliban. In those societies, everyone is/was required to obey Muslim observances.
Like Judaism, I don't believe that non-Muslims are required to obey Islamic Law

[Mediocrates]

Which perfection would you prefer, or will all of them suffice?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Israel is a nantional Jewish state. As much as Irland is a national Irish state with irish chatolism as national religion. We, too have laws that infoce or support that the fact that Jewdaism is the national official religion.
The question I want to ask is do you think that passing and enforcing religious laws is what makes Israel a Jewish state? wouldn't it be better if the people had the faith and simply didn't want to eat hametz in Passover or work on Shabbat, etc.? If a religious law needs enforcing, there's something wrong here.

In fact, passing a law is the easiest thing to do and is like avoiding the real issue. Instead of working hard to win people's hearts in favor of Judaism, the religious parties excuse themselves by execising their political power into blackmailing the Knesset to pas these laws, and they (the religious parties) think they are doing enough.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Try getting an abortion in Irland, try mentioning the Pope in Norway, see then, what would happen next...
aha... and you give these examples to show the consequences of religious laws in other countries? What does it say about Israel and where its heading?

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
If someone dosn't like that, he can always pack up and leave. Or, he can change things through the Knesset in a proper democratic fasion. Most israelis support such laws.
1. Like I said before, these were laws were passed for political reasons (i.e. keeping the coalition by meeting religious parties' blackmail) and NOT because the majority believes it is the right thing to do.
2. Most Israelis do not follow religious laws in Israel. In Shabbat, Israelis do not go to work. But they don't go to synagogue either. Instead, they drive to the beach, to friends, they go out to eat and dance on Friday night, they even go shopping, as is evident in the masses that crowd Shfayim and Yarqon shopping districts.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Secondly, there is costuomer rights. No Jewish costumer would like to unknowingly have a ham sandwich with a fake "kosher" stamp on it, nor would a Jew eat, unknowingly in a resturant with a fake Koser authorasation on it. Not all Israelis are like fred, by they must have rights too, one musnt rob Jews from thier rights and espacialy not to mislead costoumers.
and who determines what's kosher and what's not?
Yes, I know, the central rabinatte. But they exercise their monopoloy in a way the legislater did not intend. For instance, if a restaurant serves kosher food according to kosher dietary laws (let's say it is a vegeterian restaurant) but it is opened on Saturday - it will not get kosher approval. Why is that?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Dudi Bar Hen broke the law and probably fined because he deserved it. Also, I don't believe the law covers non-kosher restorants, like arab owned restorants. In this case, poor little dudi knowingly lied to his cotoumers by pretending to serve kosher food while in fact he wasn't. In EVERY normal country dudi was supposed to be sent to jail. People do not like to be deceived. Misleading a costuomer so he buy a product with a property which doesn't exist is a fellany. A Jew who want's to eat non kosher, can find one very easly, a restorant that openly declares it sells non-kosher. But, being assuming to be kosher while selling non kosher, it a fellany! Dudi had to go to jail, not just paying a fine!
This is not true.
The law about Hametz applies to every restaurant in a city that has 65% or more Jewish population. This is regardless if the restaurant is kosher or who is the owner. This means that EVERY restaurant in Tel Aviv is under this law, no exemption. Dudi Bar Hen did brake the law and was fined. However, he did not "deceive" his customers by pretending to serve kosher food and he certainly does not deserve to go to jail - he didn't murder or stole from anyone - a little perspective is required here.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Fact is, the majority of Jews in Israel, are not secular to the degree of finding kosher restorants disturbing or offensive. The majority of Jews in Israel rather eat Kosher. Israel is a democracy and the Knesset sits represent truly the ratio of kosher to non-kosher costoumers. The far left anti Jewdasim members of knesset include the Arabs (10 seats) Meretz (10 seats) and Change party (6 seats) and the traitor Bronfmann (2 seats). Thats all! The rest (92 MK) do not having any problems having kosher restorants in the land of Jews!
Your analysis is wrong in two accounts:
1. The percentage of kosher keeping Jews varies from city to city. In Jerusalem, the majority observe kosher dietary laws. However in Tel Aviv and Gush Dan area, the VAST majority of the populace are not observants of the aforementioned laws - evidence of that can be seen in Herzlia Pituach - the largest concentration of restaurants in the country - all of them non kosher.
2. Your analysis of the Knesset is untrue. First of all, non religious parties are not "Anti Judaism" - this is hatered incitement (like calling Bronfmann "traitor") Secondly, the Labor party, with its 26 seats are considered moderate left and does not represent kosher observants (I am one, for instance) I guess some of its voters are kosher observants but certainly not ALL of them, so counting them out of the non-observant populace is either manipulation or error. Same goes for Likud (by your own admission "There are right thinking atheists"), Merkaz, Ha-ovdim, Yisrael Ba'alia etc. - ALL non-religious parties cater for non observants of kosher dietary laws. So the number of Knesset members representing these people is far greater than 28. more like 60-70.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
the majority of israelis is secular, I am secular myself BTW, yet I keep kosher, and so are the majority of Israelis, most of the time.
to qoute you: "Have you counted them? "

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
There are right thinking atheists, but I have never ever heard of left extremist kosher-keepers. such a thing is truly freakish.
beatiful example of rethoric manipulation: on the right they are thinkers, of the left - extremists and freaks.
and for your education - there are "left extremists" who observe kosher and other religious laws.

[walesdave]

I worked in two Tel Aviv bar/restaurants (on the Tayelet, near the US embassy) - the first for 4 years and the second for 2 1/2 years. Neither was kosher, both were open on Shabbat. We were always packed on Shabbat and during Passover beer and bread was served. While the clients almost never included Orthodox Jews, there were plenty of kippot wearers around. The bottom line was personal choice- if someone kept kosher they wouldn't eat, they'd just have a drink. The only time in 6 1/2 years there was any religious 'trouble' was when some Orthodox Jews realised they had been caught entering the restaurant on the CCTV camera at the door- they almost started a fight trying to get the video tape!

The only time I felt any sort of religious indignation (remember I'm not Jewish) was when I saw kippot being taken off and put in a pocket, when the wearers wanted beer during Passover- hypocrasy by any standard.

The weirdest order I ever saw during Passover:- a bacon cheeseburger, no bread bun!!!!!!!! HONEST

BTW, the shabbat inspectors are not religious police, they are employed by the local municipality (at least in Tel Aviv) and I never, ever, saw one on the thousands of Shabbats I was working.

[elke]

The weirdest order I ever saw during Passover:- a bacon cheeseburger, no bread bun!!!!!!!! HONEST

Oh, this is just... I don't know... beyond funny! :D :D :D

[Vic]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Countries with religious police include Iran and Afghanistan under the Taliban. In those societies, everyone is/was required to obey Muslim observances. While there are non-Muslims in places like Iran, they are severely persecuted. Not true. Non-Muslims were/are discriminated against, in some cases pressurized to convert, but the distinctions between them and Muslims are always clear. The Taliban actually had a specific set of dress regulations for non-Muslims.The punishment for atheism in Iran is death. As of the present day - never heard of it. There is AFAIK no such thing as an atheist officially. Everyone is more or less "assigned" to a religious group.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Vic
Not true. Non-Muslims were/are discriminated against, in some cases pressurized to convert, but the distinctions between them and Muslims are always clear. The Taliban actually had a specific set of dress regulations for non-Muslims.As of the present day - never heard of it. There is AFAIK no such thing as an atheist officially. Everyone is more or less "assigned" to a religious group.

I was referring to the following:

* TV stations and TV sets were banned.
* Movie theaters were closed.
* No alcoholic beverages allowed.
* No western music.
* No paintings or statues.

Obviously, the above applied to everyone.

Alcoholic beverages and western music are banned in Iran, as well.

Not sure I understand your last point, but according to friends who escaped from Iran they did execute atheists. They also executed and imprisoned Bahais, who they believe are really atheists.

[L@mplighterM]

I believe that all the cooks in the IDF know exactly what?s kosher and what isn?t and how it has to be prepared. I?m not certain but I think that all the cooks are orthodox Jews. I suppose it?s easier that way.

I know there?s a great debate among Rabbis regarding cooking in the microwave and it?s become quite a complicated issue.

[Vic]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Not sure I understand your last point, but according to friends who escaped from Iran they did execute atheists. They also executed and imprisoned Bahais, who they believe are really atheists. This is why I have written about the present situation, not the one right after the "Islamic Revolution". AFAIK there is no such thing as an "officially recognized" atheist in Iran today: everyone is presumed to belong to some religious group, like it or not, therefore it is difficult to persecute someone explicitly for atheism. At most for lack of religious zeal. (I've checked it now: "atheism" is sometimes used as a political charge, one of the most prominent recent cases is actually a liberal Isalmic cleric.) Baha'is are different matter: they are regarded as a religious group that undermines "true Islam". And, no, I don't think Iran is a nice place to live in - just a fit of pedantry on my part ;)

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by walesdave
IThe weirdest order I ever saw during Passover:- a bacon cheeseburger, no bread bun!!!!!!!! HONEST


Reminds me the joke of the religious (Jewish) gangster, who has never shot a policmen on Shabath.

I agree, there is hypocracy among some religious people, I believe it goes the same in all major religiones in the world, Cristians, Hindus or Jews...

[Haifa]

hmm Actually in Iran everyone who is not Shiite is descriminated against, no matter who he is. Even muslims who are sunni are descriminated against.


Now back to atheism: in Pakistan, atheisnm is not a belief or lack of belief: it is a crime!

For example, if you are christian or jew, you are tolerated, but if you're atheist, you're sentenced to death.

I think this is what vic referred to when he said everyone has a religion.

[elke]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I believe that all the cooks in the IDF know exactly what?s kosher and what isn?t and how it has to be prepared. I?m not certain but I think that all the cooks are orthodox Jews. I suppose it?s easier that way.

I know there?s a great debate among Rabbis regarding cooking in the microwave and it?s become quite a complicated issue.

I don't know about Kosher, but they are quite good cooks - at least, the one at the base I was at was terrific! However, you needed a fire extinguisher after eating his chicken! ;) It was spicy !

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke


I don't know about Kosher, but they are quite good cooks - at least, the one at the base I was at was terrific! However, you needed a fire extinguisher after eating his chicken! ;) It was spicy !

I've recently been in contact with someone who just finished his service in the IDF (mandatory 3 years). He told me that keeping the mitzvah of kashrut is mandatory in the IDF. I also know from other reading that this was impletmented with the help of the Nation Religious Party. The NRP is against a Palestinain State, and wants Halacha to be Israeli Law.

Myself, I don't agree with this because for the country itself it would be very bad - only because most Jews living there wouldn't be able to live there since only about 30% of Israelis are Orthodox. That means the State would go from about 6 million people, to about 2 million people. Thats a dramatic drop, not to mention the politcal and economic ties with othr countries who would disagree with Israel expelling people who aren't "Torah Observant", and punishing those who don't keep all the mitzvot.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by elke


I don't know about Kosher, but they are quite good cooks - at least, the one at the base I was at was terrific! However, you needed a fire extinguisher after eating his chicken! ;) It was spicy !

LOL

[fred]

Originally posted by Haifa
Is the torah law applied in Israel? For example, do you get stoned for for committing adultary?
I thought I'd revisit the original question that started this thread.
Whereas physical punishments for violations of Halacha are not formally conducted either within the religious Jewish communities of Israel or by the State of israel. However one can be occasionally stoned by driving a car through ultra-orthodox communities on Shabbat. Such communities usually have a gate accross all entrances but some so not.

Also, until the 20th century many Jewish communities in Eastern Europe and Russia were granted semi-autonomous status by the state rulers, with certain of the coercive powers of the state conferred on the Chief Rabbi. That status enabled rabbis of the day to require adherance to all the laws of Halacha, and the use of physical punishments was part of the picture, incudng capital puniahment. I understand that disfigurement, not stoning, was the preferred punishment for adultary in many areas. The practise was discontinued as the Jewish communities became emacipated in the 19th & 20th centuries, and their powers of coercive punishment were witheld by the states. Does anyone have more info on this?

[Vic]

Originally posted by fred
Also, until the 20th century many Jewish communities in Eastern Europe and Russia were granted semi-autonomous status by the state rulers, with certain of the coercive powers of the state conferred on the Chief Rabbi. That status enabled rabbis of the day to require adherance to all the laws of Halacha, and the use of physical punishments was part of the picture, incudng capital puniahment. I understand that disfigurement, not stoning, was the preferred punishment for adultary in many areas. The practise was discontinued as the Jewish communities became emacipated in the 19th & 20th centuries, and their powers of coercive punishment were witheld by the states. Does anyone have more info on this? For one thing, physical punishments were gradually abolished in the whole of Europe, Russia included, over the 2nd half of the 19th century. As for Russia, the state didn't care too much about what was going on in Jewish communities, among Jews anyway. In cases when Jews did manage to leave their communities and settle in predominantly non-Jewish surroundings (i.e. outside of the so-called pale), through baptism or otherwise, general laws would have been applied. I do, however, know of no records of officially imposed physical punishments, let alone disfigurements, in Eastern European Jewish communities, and somehow this contradicts all the - admittedly limited - historical information I have on them.

[Moshe Yess]

Is Israel a Torah State?

You are not going to enjoy this post. Truth hurts.

For starters......

Is Israel a Torah State?
---HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Oye vey!!!

In 1978 I stood in the Aliya office of the Jewish Agency in Los Angeles. I gazed upon a WZO poster of an Israeli soldier holding a lulav and esrog while draped in a tallis atop an IDF tank.
What an inspiring image to a then assimilated Jew seeking to acquire some Yiddishkeit at the age of 33.

2 months later I was standing at the absorbtion center in Ashdod. I had acquired a 1 way ticket to my homeland. Goodbye Hollywood. Hello Holy Land.

About 7 years later I left in utter and complete disgust after having put my life, my family, my money and all my hopes on the line. Perhaps this first hand report from yours truly will spare young Jewish people some heart-breaking anguish.

I am not anti Israel. I came close to dying for Israel a couple of times. I am anti hypocracy.

Let's go to the beginning. Theodore Hertzel who concocted Zionism as a solution to Jewish ghetto abuses in Europe was a non-religious Jew. His initial plan was to create the Jewish homeland in an African country! The best reference work to this period of Jewish history is in a book called Perfidy by Ben Hecht. It will blow your socks off. The State of Israel was founded by the worst anti-religious Jewish segment of Jewish society with corroboration of Nazi's!. Yes I said Nazis! But that's not for here.

Unlearned Jews were and are extremely gullible to deceptions. We read the Torah which is packed full of our heritage, our duties to God and the highest of Godly moral ideals. This Torah reading implants us with the utopian Jewish image/fantasy most of us share in our heart of hearts about what Israel was/is/and should be. The State of Israel uses that imagery to wrap itself in and pretends to be the Biblical Israel. Fools buy that. It's the biggest lie since Jesus Christ was declared Judaism's King Messiah.

The initial steps to found the State of Israel were administered by people who wanted Zionism (secular, non religious Jewish society) to replace Judaism. Religious Jews who immigrated were forced to have their kids go to non-religious schools to guarantee that future Israelis would be just that-Israelis- entirely ignorant and disgusted by Judaism.

That initial decision by the Zionists has resulted in things like a 4,000 strong Gay Parade marching thru Jerusalem a few months ago. That decision has resulted in more than 70% of present day Israelis being entirely ignorant and repulsed against their own Judaism. While in the IDF I frequently saw my Israeli officers premeditatedly treif up the kosher kitchen on my base. It was only because I went to the Chief Officer and told him that the next time I was on Israeli TV singing...I was going to sing a song about him ..... my IDF Commander who informed us that there would be 1 bottle of wine for 400 religious soldiers stationed under his command during Pesach (Passover.) After that threat truckloads of wine and matzah roled into our base. So much for mandatory Kosher food in the Israeli Army. I lost 25 pounds in 2 months and paid for and brought my own food during my Army service period.

The mezuzahs and t'fillin coming out under the auspices of the Israeli Rabbinute are known and Legally ruled by the Orthodox Rabbis as being outright and presumed unkosher. In attempting to architect a secular Jewish society, the Zionists spared no expense in building wonderful communities with just one item missing...a synagogue. Services were held in stinky sweatsock stinking gyms in Ramot where I lived only after threatening to go to the press when I was told that there were no apartments available for "religious" Jews in Jerusalem by the Sochnute.

I invested $15,000 in a little cafe in Jerusalem. The business next to mine, a veggie place called Zorba the Buddah, was a front for a free sex cult society called the Orange People. Time magazine did a story about this world-wide cult. That business had a kosher certificate from the Jerusalem Rabbinute! When I went to protest this to the Rabbinute a few muscle types came to my business and told me that I would be bombed if I didn't shut up!

American, British and Argentinian Jewish new immigrants-olim- are especially preyed upon by the long established secular Zionists. A dead cat was thrown into the backyard of my business.

Corruption is so rampant in Israel that to call that society by the Bible's name for the Holy Land is an outrage.

The Israeli Supreme Court has authority over Torah Law and in most cases rules in direct opposition to Halacha. Streets with Shabbos barracades are regularly crashed thru by Shabbos violating Israeli drivers just for spite.

The Israeli government provides funding to Catholic Institutions whose publicy stated purpose is to convert Jews. I brought 5 pounds of evidence of this outrage posing as my Jewish Homeland to Judy Siegel at the Jerusalem Post. She told me it would be made into a serial article. It never got published. Just might offend the Christian American right who give so much money.

Some 70% of Israelis are not minimally Torah observant...meaning keeping Shabbos and eating Kosher. Pork farms are goverment financed and many Tel Aviv restaurants unashamedly sell pork dishes. Fraudulent kosher certificates are rampant across the country.

Believing that I would find truth in advertising based upon that WZO poster I went to live in Israel.

I left some 7 years later realizing that my alleged "Jewish homeland" described by my Bible was not only NOT a place dedicated to Torah values but was rather a money sucking whoreouse of the worst third world order. Even within the ultra-Orthodox communities there is disgusting corruption more akin to the Mafia than our Holy Torah.

A sin committed outside of Israel is mildly punished. A sin committed within Israel is more severly punished. A sin committed in Jerusalem receives the maximum possible punishment from Upstairs. Would have been vastly better that Hertzel established his secular Jewish dreamland in Africa. That way we would not be prone to confusing Biblical Israel with the present day State of Israel whose government is an admixture of Ottomon Law, British law and a little USA democracy.

Know before you go. A 2 week trip there will play in your mind like a Disney JewishLand. Live a while longer there and the ever present Hebrew/Jewish novelty wears off and the disgusting underbelly appears like a rude blast of reality in your face.

In closing....I vividly recall Rabbi Baruch Chait telling me regarding Israel's many self inflicted problems "What can I tell you Moshe? This is Golus!"

If it is Golus let it be so advertized. The pig presents its split hooves and says "Look split hooves. I am kosher."

Sorry if I have burst any bubbles.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[sharonbn]

Rabbi Moshe Yes,

I was preparing to respond to your post in details, exposing the many incorrect details and information manipulation
(e.g. "Theodore Hertzel's initial plan was to create the Jewish homeland in an African country!" - that's a lie. Theodore Hertzel's intial plan was to buy Israel from the Ottoman emperor. Uganda was proposed by the British and rejected by the Zionist congress.) ... and you start your post with "truth hurts" ...

but I decided to focus on the big picture.
You draw a picture of the Zionist secular Jews as people whose desire is to eradicate all memory of the Jewish religion. For this purpose they force children to go to secular schools, force adults to eat non kosher food ... I am amazed you didn't say theu put religious Jews up the wall and shoot them.

I am an Israeli and a secular Jew. I lived in Israel for 35 years. I have different experiences then the ones you described. My personal experiences draw a different picture of the attitude of the typical secular Jew towards Judaism and religious people. I also disagree with you on the issue of how Israel should be governed (I think seperation of government and religious is healthy and does not mean people cannot practice their religion.)

One point I need to stress is my general impression of you coming from your choice of words. You keep saying you are not anti Israeli and then call Israel "money sucking whoreouse of the worst third world order". To me, this is not criticism of Israel - this is an expression of emotions (hate in this case) towards Israel.
The general impression I got of you was of an intolerant person, incapable of accepting beliefs, point of views and life styles other than your own.

For me, open mindedness, tolerance, compassion and rational and calm attitude are much more important than religious observance. I am sad to say I didn't see these qualities in your expression. Israel has many flaws and lots of things that need improvement. Israel also has beautiful things and advantages for the Jew.

I wish and hope you never experience anti-semitism in your life. The sad reality is that anti-semitism is alive in the hearts of many people and nations around the world. It is expressed violently against Jewish persons and buildings on an increasing rate.
Israel is the one and only place in the world , where a Jew can feel safe and secure from anti-semitism and persecutions. For that purpose alone, Israel has to survive and flourish.

When things got tough, you chose to leave Israel and seek a home elsewhere. I face frequent hardships and disappointments living in Israel. I also experience joy and love here. I choose to stay here and fight for my home and for my belief.

Sharon.

[Moshe Yess]

Dear Sharon,

(e.g. "Theodore Hertzel's initial plan was to create the Jewish homeland in an African country!" - that's a lie.

Theodore Hertzel's intial plan was to buy Israel from the Ottoman emperor. Uganda was proposed by the British and rejected by the Zionist congress.) ... and you start your post with "truth hurts" ...

I may have erred on this historic detail but the underlying intent of Hertzel's plan was not to create a Torah based Jewish society. Did not the early Zionists eat pork on Yom Kippur...dafka?


You draw a picture of the Zionist secular Jews as people whose desire is to eradicate all memory of the Jewish religion. For this purpose they force children to go to secular schools, force adults to eat non kosher food ... I am amazed you didn't say they put religious Jews up the wall and shoot them.

Lemme see here. You have no problem with Jews occupying the Holy Land and doing whatever the heck they want to and God and Torah Law can be damned. Is that right? The record shows that secular Zionism and Judaism were and are diametrically opposed. The record shows that zionism made every effort to sway the State away from Torah. That is recorded history and I will not suffer any whitewash nor rewrite of that horrific Jew destroying sin.


I am an Israeli and a secular Jew. I lived in Israel for 35 years. I have different experiences then the ones you described. My personal experiences draw a different picture of the attitude of the typical secular Jew towards Judaism and religious people. I also disagree with you on the issue of how Israel should be governed (I think seperation of government and religious is healthy and does not mean people cannot practice their religion.)

Jews had some 3 forms of government in our past history. There was Moses as boss. There were Judges. There was the Sanhedrin. In all three precedents... living by Torah Law was both willingly wanted by all and Divinely mandatory. Along comes secular Zionism which attemtps to redefine Jewishness as something other than Torah connectedness 24/7 in daily life and observance. God becomes but an option for a "self first" lifestyle. Secular Zionism has a horrific record of premeditatedly thwarting Torah observance.


One point I need to stress is my general impression of you coming from your choice of words. You keep saying you are not anti Israeli and then call Israel "money sucking whoreouse of the worst third world order". To me, this is not criticism of Israel - this is an expression of emotions (hate in this case) towards Israel.
The general impression I got of you was of an intolerant person, incapable of accepting beliefs, point of views and life styles other than your own.

My hatred (quite justified BTW) is directed at the deception and hypocracy of Secular Israelism presenting itself to the Jewish world as Kosher and Moral. It is neither. If Jews occupy the Holy Land they must live by Torah. The Land will not tolerate anti-Torah behavior. When we lived by the Torah in our past we had peace and prosperity. Dump the Torah and you get "blessed" by God with Arafats. As the Talmud teaches: "It's not the snakebite that kills...it's the sin that brought about the snake being sent to bite you for the sin."

For me, open mindedness, tolerance, compassion and rational and calm attitude are much more important than religious observance.

That is because you were raised in a secular Israel which, by Hertzel's design, ripped you off of your connection to Torah and and proper understanding of Torah. Hertzel's decendents taught you that Torah was an option. As a Jew you are required by God to live by the Torah. This is God's clearly stated Directive. So please take your complaint to Him and do not slander me as intolerant.

I wish and hope you never experience anti-semitism in your life. The sad reality is that anti-semitism is alive in the hearts of many people and nations around the world. It is expressed violently against Jewish persons and buildings on an increasing rate.
Israel is the one and only place in the world , where a Jew can feel safe and secure from anti-semitism and persecutions. For that purpose alone, Israel has to survive and flourish.

The worst possible anti-Semitism is to be found in a circumstance where Jews teach and tell other Jews that Zionism is as good as ....and as moral an equivalent..... to Torah observance. The former is a human political concoction devoid of living by God's Laws. The latter is consistent with God's Laws.

When things got tough, you chose to leave Israel and seek a home elsewhere. I face frequent hardships and disappointments living in Israel. I also experience joy and love here. I choose to stay here and fight for my home and for my belief.

Now you apply the rather overused guilt mongering shtick Zionists are so famous for. I did not leave because of hardship. My life prior to living in Israel and after leaving Israel was and has been chock full of hardships. I left because I discovered first hand that Secular Zionism is a third world whorehouse posing as a synagogue. Yes...I like matters to be clearly understood and articulated for what they truly are. It is called reality contact. And yes I have zero tolerance for treif calling itself glatt kosher. The Torah so directs us.

When the Holy Land lives a Holy life-according to Torah- in all its stratas---then and only then there will be peace and prosperity.

Israel is the one and only place in the world , where a Jew can feel safe and secure from anti-semitism and persecutions. For that purpose alone, Israel has to survive and flourish.

We share the same goal and aspirations you stated. Zionism is dying on the vine. It's failure is evident by there being more and more Israelis leaving to live elsewhere. Raise kids to want materialism and they leave for the USA. Raise kids to live a Holy life and they they are not so materialistic.

The key to achieving Israel's survival and flourishing is the acceptence by the nation to live by our Holy Torah. The true defenders of Israel are all those boys in Yeshiva learning Torah.

You opened with this remark: I am an Israeli and a secular Jew.

Therein lies the proof to my previous and above arguments. You are a Jew first. Jews are inherently Holy and duty bound to love and obey God. When you restructure your life (and you most certainly will, Sharon) to be living as God wants you to...you will come to see that Hertzel was and is the opposite of Moses. Moses brought Jews to God and Torah. Hertzel brought Jews away from God in a Land whose sole and primary purpose is to serve God.

Shalom,

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Mediocrates]

Are you saying it is impossible to live in Judaism in Israel or that it is irrelevant to try? Are you saying that living a righteous life in Israel is no different or no better than living on the Shetl surrounding by apikorsim?

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yes
Lemme see here. You have no problem with Jews occupying the Holy Land and doing whatever the heck they want to and God and Torah Law can be damned. Is that right? The record shows that secular Zionism and Judaism were and are diametrically opposed. The record shows that zionism made every effort to sway the State away from Torah. That is recorded history and I will not suffer any whitewash nor rewrite of that horrific Jew destroying si

So what do you have to about the religious zionist movment? (For example, Mizrahi)

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Are you saying it is impossible to live in Judaism in Israel or that it is irrelevant to try? Are you saying that living a righteous life in Israel is no different or no better than living on the Shetl surrounding by apikorsim?

I said neither. Israel has an inherent duty to actually be what it falsely claims and presents itself publicly as, namely, a Holy Land administered by Torah Law and specifically not a secular supreme court. The true Supreme Court is God and He has made His Wishes for Israel-the Land- and Israel-the people very clear. When all else fails read the Instructions.

4,000 homosexuals marched in Jerusalem recently with the Israeli government's approval. Only a spite-filled hatred against Torah
values would have permitted that to happen in the Holy city. If Israelis want to **** on the floor let them do it elsewhere besides the Holy Land. The Land must be Holy or else God punishes.

Better the shtetl where my non-Jewish neighbour is sincerely what he is...than having a Jew as a neighbour in Israel who hates and violates the Torah. Less confusion that way.

Some 27 per cent of Israelis are living by Torah and are involved in a constant struggle with secular zionism. That is truly sicko. secular Zionism and Judaism are diametrically opposed.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by shoshannah


So what do you have to about the religious zionist movment? (For example, Mizrahi)

A major step in the right direction. Secular Zionism called their weapon UZI which means "my strength" Religious Jews call God "my strength." Perhaps that will illuminate the diference of life orientation between the two sectors. Any Jew who tolerates a secular Israel has shot himself and our people in the foot. Victory comes from God not from guns. Even Eisenhower prayed before launching Normandy.

And as long as I am unloading against the secular zionists let me say this about the oh so revered Golda Maier. She went to Washington. The White House prepared kosher food for her. She chose to eat lobster publicly instead. We can thank Theodore Hertzel and friends for such brazen indifference and arrogance like that.

Any Jew's first duty is to God. That got lost somewhere in the beginning of secular Zionism.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
I may have erred on this historic detail but the underlying intent of Hertzel's plan was not to create a Torah based Jewish society.

Hertzel’s plan was to establish a Jewish state in the land of Israel that persons belonging to the Jewish nation, of all kinds of faiths, can shelter in. He did not intend the state to become what you call “Torah based”. A government body is much healthier if it separated from religious interests and bodies. I will say it again – a secular state does not imply what you describe as a state that actively persecute religious Jews and enforce unreligious life styles upon the citizens! Why is this simple truth so hard to understand? Why do you accept the American government but cannot accept Israeli government that performs similarly?

Take a look around the world today: The only ultra religious governments exist in the Islamic world (if you exclude the Vatican as a meaningful state.) These countries are regarded by everyone as underdeveloped, intolerant, and with constant violations of human rights. I believe if, God forbid (pun not intended), Israel will ever become governed by ultra religious parties, it will become a second Iran – a place where normal people cannot live.

Another point: In present situation in Israel, the ultra orthodox community cannot support itself. It heavily relies on the secular community in the areas of military security and economic security (i.e. tax payer’s funding.) I cannot imagine how such a self-isolated parasite community can suddenly overturn and become productive, self sufficient.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Did not the early Zionists eat pork on Yom Kippur...dafka?
I’m getting tired of these provocations. Where do you get this “information” from? You seem to either misunderstand or manipulate the term “secular”. Secular persons have faith and belief and ideals just like you. They live their lives according to these ideals and not for spite. Some of them may perform provocations – that is a human behavior. Just like ultra-orthodox Jews throw stones on cars passing by on Saturday or throw nails on the road to blow up the wheels (endangering lives by that action!). Provocation is by no means excluded to secular Jews.

Please, Rabbi Moshe, understand this: being secular does not automatically imply “hate religious Jews and religious customs”. The truth is that while majority of Israeli Jews define themselves as “secular”, most of them believe in God, go to synagogue on Yom Kippur, celebrate Passover reading the Hagadah and avoid eating bread, etc.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Jews had some 3 forms of government in our past history. There was Moses as boss. There were Judges. There was the Sanhedrin. In all three precedents... living by Torah Law was both willingly wanted by all and Divinely mandatory. Along comes secular Zionism which attemtps to redefine Jewishness as something other than Torah connectedness 24/7 in daily life and observance. God becomes but an option for a "self first" lifestyle. Secular Zionism has a horrific record of premeditatedly thwarting Torah observance.

You are beginning to repeat yourself.
About the biblical “forms of government”: First of all, in Moses times, there was the incident of the Golden calf. Secondly, you forgot another form of government: the kings. Starting with Shaul, who sought the advice of a magician woman before going into battle, then David, who fornicated with Elisheva and sent her husband to his death – all fine examples of following God and in meticulous observance. You want me to count more examples?

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
My hatred (quite justified BTW) is directed at the deception and hypocracy of Secular Israelism presenting itself to the Jewish world as Kosher and Moral. It is neither. If Jews occupy the Holy Land they must live by Torah. The Land will not tolerate anti-Torah behavior.

“My hatred....” ok, now we understand each other.
As an Israeli I am not exposed to the Israeli official propaganda effort towards foreign Jews, so I will not argue with you here. However, the poster you described in an earlier post, of a Tank driver holding Matza is by no means “deception”. I served in IDF for 7 years in more then 15 different camps and visited countless more. In all of them, the kitchen was kept kosher by a sergeant “kosher keeper”. In all my military Passover nights we had a full ceremony held by a Rabbi from the military rabbinate.
...and what has morality to do with it all? Secular Jews cannot be moral? Only religious Jews are moral??

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
When we lived by the Torah in our past we had peace and prosperity
That’s a laugh. An you remember why the ten tribes separated from Judea and formed the biblical state of Israel? Hint: Yerova’am, son of Salomon. This post (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=20935#post20935) tells the whole story.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Dump the Torah and you get "blessed" by God with Arafats.
That reminds me of a case 10 years ago. A bus loaded with children that were on a field trip got stuck on the rails and was ran over by a passing train. 22 children died there. The country was in utter shock and deep grief. Then some Rabbis said they examined the Mezuzahs in the houses of the children and they were all “not kosher”. I still remember my infuriation hearing this.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
That is because you were raised in a secular Israel which, by Hertzel's design, ripped you off of your connection to Torah and and proper understanding of Torah. As a Jew you are required by God to live by the Torah. This is God's clearly stated Directive. So please take your complaint to Him and do not slander me as intolerant.
I am required by God? Says who? God didn’t speak with me and demanded anything.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
The worst possible anti-Semitism is to be found in a circumstance where Jews teach and tell other Jews that Zionism is as good as ....and as moral an equivalent..... to Torah observance. The former is a human political concoction devoid of living by God's Laws. The latter is consistent with God's Laws.
You don’t know what is the worst anti-semitism. The worst anti-semitism is burning down synagogues, breaking human rights for Jews (like employment discrimination), forcing Jewish people to leave their homes and even killing Jewish people because of their faith or ethnic identity. You may believe that Zionism is immoral is wrong but you seriously compare this to anti-seimitism?

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Now you apply the rather overused guilt mongering shtick Zionists are so famous for. I did not leave because of hardship. My life prior to living in Israel and after leaving Israel was and has been chock full of hardships. I left because I discovered first hand that Secular Zionism is a third world whorehouse posing as a synagogue. Yes...I like matters to be clearly understood and articulated for what they truly are. It is called reality contact. And yes I have zero tolerance for treif calling itself glatt kosher. The Torah so directs us.
I rest my case, you have zero tolerance for beliefs and ideals other than yours. If Israel will become an ultra-orthodox state, it will be an EXACT replica of Iran. I, for one, can promise you I will not let my beautiful homeland go to ruins. I believe there are many other like me.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
We share the same goal and aspirations you stated. Zionism is dying on the vine. It's failure is evident by there being more and more Israelis leaving to live elsewhere. Raise kids to want materialism and they leave for the USA. Raise kids to live a Holy life and they they are not so materialistic.
Aha, again, you are the shining example of who stays in Israel and who’s leaving.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
You opened with this remark: I am an Israeli and a secular Jew.
Therein lies the proof to my previous and above arguments. You are a Jew first
NO. go re-read my statement. I am an Israeli citizen first (actually I am a Zionist first), an atheist by belief second, and a Jew by ethnic identity third.

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Jews are inherently Holy and duty bound to love and obey God. When you restructure your life (and you most certainly will, Sharon) to be living as God wants you to...you will come to see that Hertzel was and is the opposite of Moses. Moses brought Jews to God and Torah. Hertzel brought Jews away from God in a Land whose sole and primary purpose is to serve God.
Oh, now you practice prophecy... remind me who has that gift?
If you ask, I do not believe in God. I believe in the qualities I listed in my previous post.
I accept your belief and faith as equal to my own.
Can you do the same?

[sharonbn]

continuation of previous post:
Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Lemme see here. You have no problem with Jews occupying the Holy Land and doing whatever the heck they want to and God and Torah Law can be damned. Is that right? The record shows that secular Zionism and Judaism were and are diametrically opposed. The record shows that zionism made every effort to sway the State away from Torah. That is recorded history and I will not suffer any whitewash nor rewrite of that horrific Jew destroying sin.

OK, a history lesson:
The first Zionist congress, held in the city of Bazel, Switzerland in 1897 housed representatives of religious Jewish movement called “Hibat Zion” (what was later called “The Mizrahi” movement) who advocated a return of religious Jews to Israel and revival of Jewish religious life in the land. The movement accounted for ~20% of the Zionist movement at that time.

The same movement, Hibat Zion, was also the driving force behind The first Aliyah wave, 1897-1909 that was characteristically religious based. Theses people believed that the land of Israel must be salvaged by building observant communities in Israel. The people established the settlements Petach Tikva, Rosh Pina, Gdera, etc. where they maintained a Jewish religious lifestyle.

The second Aliyah wave after WWI was characteristically secular. These people were idealistic Marxists. They invented the Kibbutz and lived a lifestyle free from religious customs.

Rabbi Coock, the chief Rabbi of the newly founded town of Tel Aviv made two famous trips in the settlements of the Second Aliyah (in 1920 and 1929). He was joined by chief Rabbies from Jerusalem and Tiberias. They toured places like Rishon Lezion, Zichron Yaakov, Ein Harod, Poria, etc. While they did not “convert” the locals into observant Jews, they were welcomed wherever they came. Rabbi Coock concluded his Journey with the belief that the two groups can coexist in Israel.

The declaration of independence of the state of Israel was made on 15/5/1948 which was a Friday. Attendance included leaders of the Jewish secualr and religious communities. The declaration was scheduled for 16:00 and an unscheduled delay nearly postponed the declaration to Saturday, to avoid breaking Sabbath.

All Israeli Knessets and governments, starting from the first, included religious and ultra-religious representatives. The arrangement to exempt ultra-religious youngsters rom military service was signed as early as 1950 between religious leaders and PM Ben Gurion.

That is history. I leave to the reader’s decision whether or not “The record shows that zionism made every effort to sway the State away from Torah.”

[Mediocrates]

In point of history the story of the Kingdom of Israel in ancient times is specifically about the failure to reconcile the problems of having both the civil and religious power vested in one body or one man. That is the historical undercurrent of the frictions that ultimately lead to the downfall of one Jewish kingdom after another. One can be an effective King or an effective priest but not both. To try is to fail miserably at both.

The assumption that a theocracy is somehow an effective civil and religious force is wrong. One can be an effective civil force by being pragmatic. One can be an effective head of a theocracy only by ignoring the religious consequences of that vast portion of your society that is secular. That's simply a fact of how things work. In every theocratic or quasi theocratic society on earth either the ruling body ignores the realities of their own civil order or they outsource it to heathens.

[Moshe Yess]

BS"D

Dear Sharon,

I am a Rabbi of sorts. I have two routes I can go here with you. I can repeatedly banter with you over the superficial intellectual/historical/Israeli matters we are discussing or I can get real personal. In my 30 years of talking with Jews of all flavors across the globe I have discovered that what is said does not necessarily nor usually reflect what is the true underlying issue(s) or problems.

While you may not want it...and most certainly have not asked for it...I am going to get brutally personal and honest with you. Understand well, please, that my hand and words may be strong but my heart is loving. You are not my enemy...you are a fellow Jew. That being said let us unwrap and unravel this puzzle that is driving this discussion.

Herein lies the root of the problem to our discussion. You stated:

NO. go re-read my statement. I am an Israeli citizen first (actually I am a Zionist first), an atheist by belief second, and a Jew by ethnic identity third.


It is blatantly self evident to myself that God does not factor into your present self concept. As an athiest you believe there is no God. You define yourself via denying that God even exists... yet alone you having any obligation to serve Him. You are a God free, do as you wish individual.

That is a catastrophically self destructive dis-orientation to life. Because a good number of Israelis feel similarly as you do... it has the illusion of being valid and normal to you. Sharon, I don't care how happy you may be or feel with your self concept and lifestyle. You may be tickled pink with your atheism, Israeli citizenship, and non-religious Jewish ethnicity...I am here to be a helping mirror even if it outrages you.

What you have bought into is an Israeli citizenship identity smattered with a non-religious definition of Jewish ethnicity.

Then.... with all your pride invested in the above you have embraced a truly arrogant and offensive elitist atttude which demeans (as lessor than yourself or any other Israeli) any Jew who voluntarily chooses not to live in the State of Israel because... in your present values hierarchy... serving, defending, and ensuring the survival the State of Israel is the be all and end all of your morality index.

In the Ethics of the Fathers it states: Those who will not serve God will serve a government. You are living proof of this.

I do not and will not validate your choices and definitions of who and what you are. You possess a Jewish Soul from God. Even as you heatedly deny His existence He continues to make your heart beat, provides you with air and ages you against your will. At some point in your life He will take your Soul, may you live long and healthy years.

I was raised in a non-religious home in Hollywood, California. God was more irrelevent in my life back then than He is in yours today. It took me 33 years from birth to discover that everything I had been taught, believed in and lived by was wrong.

I am telling you, heart to heart, that you are now in such a similar situation as I was. You have a problem, Sharon. You have been ripped off of your Yiddishkeit by overwhelming forces beyond your control. What is worse is that you don't even feel the deficiency! To add insult to your injury your Israeli-identity elitism has brought you to the point to call your fellow Jews "parasites."

I cannot imagine how such a self-isolated parasite community can suddenly overturn and become productive, self sufficient.

They have chosen to isolate themselves because they want no part of a God-less society. They want to be and live Holy. They wash their floors and serve in the army as you do.

The Torah states Kedoshim Te-hee-you....you shall be Holy unto Me.

The frummas were alive, serving God and entirely self sufficient in Israel well before Hertzel and friends landed.

So I now brazenly step over the normal boundaries of proper social protocol here. I am intruding into your space....I am rudely interrupting your self-satisfied lifestyle and privacy. Moreover I am sticking my big Jewish Rabbi's nose and long white beard into your personal business. If you are getting uncomfortable or even angry with that...then good. Suffer it for a while and I will get you out of the cesspool you have managed to fall into.

I am going to challenge you and your bravery. Let us just see how strong you truly are. I don't want to hear about your philosophies any further. They are wrong and stupid.

Tomorrow night is Rosh Hashanna. Between Rosh Hashanna and Yom Kippur you, I and the entire world will be Judged by God. Who will live..who will die...who for health..who for illness etc.

You will begin your discovery of your Yiddishkeit starting now. I challenge you, Sharon, daughter of the Jewish people, with lighting 2 candles before sunset tomorrow and 2 candles after sunset Saturday night.

You know how to be an Israeli. You know how to be an athiest. Let us see if you have the bravery to enter the realm of Holiness....which is your duty to God as a Jew.

Here are your instructions.

Light Candles

Girls and all women that are in the house (or if there isn't a woman in the house, the head of the household), should light candles 18 minutes before sunset first , and then recite the following blessings:

Blessings for September 6, 2002

1) Blessed are You, L-rd, our G-d, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments and has commanded us to light the candle of Shabbat and of the Day of Remembrance.

Ba-ruch A-tah Ado-nai E-lo-hei-nu Me-lech Ha-olam Asher Ki-deshanu Be-mitzvo-tav Ve-tzvi-vanu Le-hadlik Ner Shel Shabbat veShel Yom Hazikaron.

2) Blessed are You, Lord our G-d, King of the universe, who has granted us life, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this occasion.

Ba-ruch A-tah Ado-nai E-lo-hei-nu Me-lech Ha-olam She-heche-ya-nu Ve-ki-yi-ma-nu Ve-higi-a-nu Liz-man Ha-zeh

Blessings for September 7, 2002

Note: Candles must be kindled only after the end of Shabbat, the candles should be lit from a pre-existing flame, (such as from a pilot flame or a flame prepared on September 6 before the onset of the holiday), as on the holiday one is not allowed to create a new flame.

1) Blessed are You, L-rd, our G-d, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments and has commanded us to light the candle of the Day of Remembrance.

Ba-ruch A-tah Ado-nai E-lo-hei-nu Me-lech Ha-olam Asher Ki-deshanu Be-mitzvo-tav Ve-tzvi-vanu Le-hadlik Ner Shel Yom Hazikaron.

2) Blessed are You, Lord our G-d, King of the universe, who has granted us life, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this occasion.

Ba-ruch A-tah Ado-nai E-lo-hei-nu Me-lech Ha-olam She-heche-ya-nu Ve-ki-yi-ma-nu Ve-higi-a-nu Liz-man Ha-zeh.

Hence forth you and I will learn Judaism. When I see a sincere effort on your part towards that goal we will continue any other discussions at that time. Shanna Tova, Sharon.

Ketivah V'Chatimah Tovah,

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
In point of history the story of the Kingdom of Israel in ancient times is specifically about the failure to reconcile the problems of having both the civil and religious power vested in one body or one man. That is the historical undercurrent of the frictions that ultimately lead to the downfall of one Jewish kingdom after another. One can be an effective King or an effective priest but not both. To try is to fail miserably at both.

The assumption that a theocracy is somehow an effective civil and religious force is wrong. One can be an effective civil force by being pragmatic. One can be an effective head of a theocracy only by ignoring the religious consequences of that vast portion of your society that is secular. That's simply a fact of how things work.

In every theocratic or quasi theocratic society on earth either the ruling body ignores the realities of their own civil order or they outsource it to heathens.

OK....time for some reality contact here. First comes God. Then the Jewish People then the Torah. "Secular" means disregarding the Torah. Dividing the Jewish society into 2 camps...the secular and the religious doesn't cut it. The Commandment to all Jews is "You will be Holy unto Me." That is clearly articulated in addition to the Ten Commandments as part of a 613 Commandments spiritual lifeline between Creator and His created. Nowhere is a God avoiding societal segment valid, moral, pragmatic nor kosher. Period!

All Jews are Holy and Jewish history has not been authored by secular governmental pragmatics. Jewish history is Authored by God in a direct cause and effect relationship to Torah observance. We will address the Holocaust at another post, please.

King David and King Solomon represent the former apex of a Jewish Torah observant nation. Both Kings had flaws. The failures of any and all previous Jewish Kingdoms can be understood from their distance from Torah observance. When all else fails read the Instructions.

Christianty deemed it impossible to keep the Law. They wrote themselves into literal idolatry. A similar situation arises in Israel today. Israelis have made a deity of the State.

There is no greater pragmatism than taking care of God's requests upon us. From doing that... all the Blessings flow. From not doing that.... all the trouble flows from Upstairs. These are the Spiritual Mechanical Pragmatics of the universe verified by Jewish history. Duh.....dat's the way it works, Louie.

The State as Deity. Live for the State. Build the State. Die for the State....but service to God is deemed as a non-pragmatic option! What a blinded dis-orientation to how things work.

I pose to you that the above secular Zionist formula is catastrophically out of sync with the Spiritual Mechanical Pragmatics of the universe.

God authors all destinies. The secular State of Israel is standing under its God and upon His Holy Land. Either the State goes according to Torah or it will go down the tubes AS ALL PREVIOUS TORAH AVOIDING JEWISH SOCIETIES HAVE SUFFERED IN JEWISH HISTORY!!!


quote: "The assumption that a theocracy is somehow an effective civil and religious force is wrong."

Let us not trivialize a Torah true Jewish society with the name theocracy. It erroneously leads to comparison with Iran.

The Torah has worked brilliantly before in Jewish history. It is eternal and will work yet again perfectly on all levels of pragmatism both religious and civil when but given a chance to do so.

What is overwhelmingly apparent is that every deviation from that God given and directed Formula for Jewish societal administration, i.e. Torah, has ended up on the trash heap of Jewish history. They rebelled and shot themselves in the foot thereby.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat its errors.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Vic]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
4,000 homosexuals marched in Jerusalem recently with the Israeli government's approval. Only a spite-filled hatred against Torah
values would have permitted that to happen in the Holy city. If Israelis want to **** on the floor let them do it elsewhere besides the Holy Land. The Land must be Holy or else God punishes.A question to the moderators: does equating human beings whose sexual orientation the poster doesn't approve of with excretion violate the "rules of the road" in this forum?

Oh, and dear "Rabbi of sorts", they didn't teach you about respect for human life in Judaism at the place where you acquired your title, did they?

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by Vic
A question to the moderators: does equating human beings whose sexual orientation the poster doesn't approve of with excretion violate the "rules of the road" in this forum?

Oh, and dear "Rabbi of sorts", they didn't teach you about respect for human life in Judaism at the place where you acquired your title, did they?

What I learned (about 7 years) in Rabbinical Yeshiva in Jerusalem, Vic, was that homosexuality is not only forbidden and a sin...but that it is clearly stated in Torah as an abomination. Murder does not even have that degree of offensiveness to God.

What you attempt to legitimize and cleansingly refer to as lifestyle or sexual orientation is Torah defined as abomination to God. Homosexuality brings death and destruction. Please re-read the Lot/Sodom-Gemorrah narrative in Genesis for verification.

Jewish Religious Law requires no respect for homosexuals. In fact homosexuals are warned twice then killed according to Jewish Law.

I have no obligation (nor desire- nor intent) to show any respect nor social nicieties whatsoever to that which brings doom upon Israel. If my position seems lacking respect for human life to you then your perception of myself is wrong. Human life was not meant to be homosexual. Homosexuality ruins human life and destroys society. So states God. By chastizing such perversion of human life I show more love of my fellow man than you do. You wink or approve. You thereby further encourage their sinnfulness.
That's not showing respect for human life. That's applauding as your fellow man takes a one-way ticket to Divine Punishment.

No.... if this board cannot or will not tolerate a truthful expression of Torah values then I won't want to be here will I? If so then it's been fun.

I have zero time and tolerance for 2 faced social hypocricies.
Homosexuality is most certainly unGodly. In fact it is deprivation and perversion of the first Commandment found in Torah "Be fruitful and multiply."

In light of the above Torah Truths..I think my characterization of that Gay Parade was rather lienient. Has nothing to do with my personal approval or not. God disapproves. Just look at the AIDS epidemic. That's God doing some houscleaning of those who could care less about Him and Torah Commandments. Got it yet?

Rabbi [of sorts] Moshe Yess

[Mediocrates]

No.... if this board cannot or will not tolerate a truthful expression of Torah values then I won't want to be here will I?

I am sure that you are convinced there is one and only one expression of Torah values and I respect that. I do disagree though. I do not believe your expression is the only one. Unfortunately there is little room between us for debate because I understand from you there is no debate at all. The Chabad equivalent of Roma Locuta Causa Finita, as it were. It's not in the end anything to do with tolerance nor is it about a captive audience either.

[Moshe Yess]

Roma Locuta Causa Finita


HUH? Is that like semper ubi sub ubi?

RMY

[Mediocrates]

roughly translated it means "Rome speaks, case closed."

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
I am a Rabbi of sorts. I have two routes I can go here with you. I can repeatedly banter with you over the superficial intellectual/historical/Israeli matters we are discussing or I can get real personal. In my 30 years of talking with Jews of all flavors across the globe I have discovered that what is said does not necessarily nor usually reflect what is the true underlying issue(s) or problems.
You tell me you can banter over intellectual matters, but you choose to “get brutally personal”. I believe this falls into the category of “what is said does not necessarily nor usually reflect what is the true underlying issue(s) or problems.”

I believe that what happened was that in your online quest you all of the sudden stumbled upon a secular Jew who happens to know more than you about Israeli history and can give rational answers to your provocations and expose your manipulations and historical distortions. So instead of thinking about the statements and ideas I have brought forth and maybe attempt to work a little bit harder to support your pov – you chose to abandon this course. Instead of accepting my intellectual challenge, you choose to personally attack me by calling me an elitist just because I can articulate my words and provide historical backup to my statements, and you “challenge my bravery” with an attempt to convert me to orthodox Judaism.

Rabbi Moshe, this is a discussion forum. This is not an Or Same’ach Yeshiva or a survival TV show. People come here to discuss philosophical/intellectual/historical issues. They express their pov and backup their statements with historical reference. This is the playground. These are the rules of the road. If you don’t know what’s the purpose of a discussion forum or how people exchange pov without resorting to personal attacks – then maybe you should learn that before coming to such a place.

You were right about me not wanting or asking for a personal attack, but I will not shy away from a discussion because someone else have launched such an attack.

Now, with all the side issues and noise, I feel it is necessary to restate the purpose of this discussion: the discussion is about two things:

First of all, it is about the issue of the book of laws of Israel: How many religious laws exist and how many there ought to be. should Israel be governed by ultra-orthodox laws, or by a religiously non-affiliated government. This is an intellectual discussion that may touch issues of politics, diplomacy and economics. The question of the virtue of religious or secular beliefs has no bearing here.

Secondly, and mostly due to Rabbi Moshe’s initiative, a new issue was brought in – assessing whether Zionism a good or bad thing for the Jewish people and whether we all should convert to ultra-orthodox. This issue deals with faith and belief. There is little if any rational thought involved in these areas and so no point in debating about them.
Maybe this issue deserves a thread of its own...

As an atheist, I believe there is no God. This is my belief. Beliefs are not a matter for rational debate or historical proof. While it is true that I may alter my beliefs, I hardly think it would be because I lit candles.

And while we’re on the subject, rabbi, let me add a small point: you suggested I, “daughter of the Jewish people” lit candles on Shabbat. However, I am a son of the Jewish people, not a daughter. Another proof that you cannot take anything for granted and must always question what you think is the truth. :)

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
To add insult to your injury your Israeli-identity elitism has brought you to the point to call your fellow Jews "parasites."
They have chosen to isolate themselves because they want no part of a God-less society. They want to be and live Holy. They wash their floors and serve in the army as you do.
Yes, I stand by my words. But this is yet another issue – the coexistence of secular and orthodox Jews in Israel. There are two other threads that discuss this issue and I have stated and explained my position there.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16744#post16744
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=17071#post17071
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=20831#post20831
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=20935#post20935
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=21078#post21078

shana tova,
sharon.

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by Haifa
Is the torah law applied in Israel? For example, do you get stoned for for committing adultary?

Or is there *any* punishment for doing these things?

Also, are people allowed to worship other gods in Israel? say some pagan god?

Israel being in the Western sphere is a free worship however you like to type state I am sure.

If you like stoning, amputation, beheading, backwardness, primevil foolishness then Haifa do get the hell out a free, infinite idea republic and go to Iran.

No, Israel will never be a total religious law republic because her ally, the U.S would look down on that and personal freedom loving people like me would look down at that. Israel would not give away all her democratic accomplishments.

Nothing is "forced" on anyone.

No nation ever advances or achieves anything stuck with old religious laws of primitiveness, ask Afghanistan or the Arab World that.

The Saudis think the world is flat, while NASA is planning a trip to Mars.

[andak01]

bump.

[Achihud]

bump. You're good at it!