Lebanese-Australian Muslim gang rapists

[L@mplighterM]

Snips:


http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={848D07EE-9976-491F-86E6-7E3043DCA11D}


Multiculturalists are the real racists

Mark Steyn
National Post

Last Thursday, in Sydney, the pack leader of a group of Lebanese Muslim gang-rapists was sentenced to 55 years in jail. I suppose I ought to say "Lebanese-Australian" Muslim gang-rapists, since the accused were Australian citizens. But, identity-wise, the rambunctious young lads considered themselves heavy on the Lebanese, light on the Australian. During their gang rapes, the lucky lady would be told she was about to be "f---ed Leb style" and that she deserved it because she was an "Australian pig."
End snip.




This is a world wide crime being committed at an increasing rate throughout the EU(according to this article and numerous other sources) and apparently in Australia as well. The article indicates that Australians have started questioning themselves if they somehow have brought these horrid crimes upon themselves

[ayesha]

why is the word muslim in there? what? did they say "we rape u in the name of Allah" or something? i guess whenever there is a rape where u r, the tabloids say "American Anglo-Catholic rapist" what has their parents religion got to do with the crime? they raped and they have to be punished for that. why the heck bring in the religion? why?

[L@mplighterM]

Perhaps there are Muslims that have hijacked Islam and turned it into a violent religion. Every statistic that I have ever seen lately indicates that Islam is inherently evil from my point of view. When the religious leaders make excuses for rapists they should be exiled in hell.

On the other hand there are indications that a percentage of Muslims are peaceful!

Where have you ever read that non Muslim leaders make excuses for individuals that commit crimes? Post it!

The press has an obligation to tell it how it is. A fact is a fact!

[peacelover]

The press has an obligation to tell it how it is. A fact is a fact!

Yes, but is it a relevant fact? I mean, the fact he was wearing brown shoes while he carried out the offence is a fact, but is it necessary to include it in the article?
Did the offence have anything to do with the fact these men were Muslims? Would they have been any less likely to have committed the crime if they were non-Muslim?

If not, then why is it relevant that they are Muslims? Ayesha rightly points out that the religious background is not usually mentioned.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by peacelover


Yes, but is it a relevant fact? I mean, the fact he was wearing brown shoes while he carried out the offence is a fact, but is it necessary to include it in the article?
Did the offence have anything to do with the fact these men were Muslims? Would they have been any less likely to have committed the crime if they were non-Muslim?

If not, then why is it relevant that they are Muslims? Ayesha rightly points out that the religious background is not usually mentioned.

The world has a right to know that it faces a threat from Radical Fanatic Islam. All I’ve ever heard is that Islam is a religion of peace. That is certainly not the case based on facts.

Do you now want to make an argument that the Islamic Fundamentalists are peacelovers? Statistics clearly indicate that it isn’t a peaceful religion.

Everything negative that the press publishes regarding Islam is a nail in its coffin.

[ayesha]

why do u insist on judging islam by a non religious person! thats like judging the torat by what it says in the bible.

why stop at just those 'facts'? why not tell us the rapists were leb-australian nationality muslim rapists with 3 bros, 1 sis a university degree, likes cats, hates dogs.......... :rolleyes: come on

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha
why do u insist on judging islam by a non religious person! thats like judging the torat by what it says in the bible.

why stop at just those 'facts'? why not tell us the rapists were leb-australian nationality muslim rapists with 3 bros, 1 sis a university degree, likes cats, hates dogs.......... :rolleyes: come on

It’s Muslims that are committing these attacks. I haven’t been keeping count but I’ve read at least 20 articles reporting the same thing from the four corners of the world. Perhaps you want to see the blame shifted to Christian Muslims.

Last year I talked to a woman that had almost suffered the same faith (about 20 years ago) I believe it was Iranian Muslims (not 100%sure about the Iranian but it was Muslims) that were involved.

I read a report where a Muslim had gone on TV and publicly stated that western girls weren’t worth two bits. Sometime after that interview he and his gang raped a worthless (according to him) 12-year-old girl.

So you go right ahead and keep on defending your brethren. The statistics were in the article and they have been in many articles that I’ve read.

Try suing the press if you don’t like it!

[NewsGuy]

Is this whole rape thing being ordered by Islam? I don't think so.

I wouldn't support pinning this on the religion if it is just individuals doing this as their own decision.

There are plenty people of all religions who commit crimes. Why pick on Islam?

[L@mplighterM]

Perhaps I should have been a bit more explanatory. There’s statistics in the article and many other articles I’ve read.

For one thing their religious leaders thrust the blame at the females for dressing provocatively. Is that so?

If individuals committing the crimes are Muslims and they represent 2% of a population and up to 75% of gang rapes are committed by them there’s a definite problem.

The problem is that there’s a definite lack of respect for females coming from that religion. So the whole problem boils down to the fact that the religion views females as second-class citizens.

Every female in the western world has a right to know that Muslims present a greater danger to their personal safety. That’s why I firmly believe that the press has an obligation to make this FACT public.

I would like to make it clear that I don’t believe that every Muslim is a rapist!

What Rabbis or other religious leaders can anyone name that make excuses for individuals that rape children?

I’ve posted links on this forum to support my allegations that Islamic religious leaders support criminal activity and make excuses for the ones that commit them.

[L@mplighterM]

Links and snips:

So now we know the facts, straight from the Supreme Court, that a group of Lebanese Muslim gang rapists from south-western Sydney hunted their victims on the basis of their ethnicity and subjected them to hours of degrading, dehumanising torture. The young women, and girls as young as 14, were "sluts" and "Aussie pigs", the rapists said. So now that some of the perpetrators are in jail, will those people who cried racism and media "sensationalism" hang their heads in shame? Hardly


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.html



Pakistani Woman Recalls Jury-Ordered Rape
By REUTERS
UZAFFARGARH, Pakistan, July 5 (Reuters) — A Pakistani woman said today that she had begged for mercy as four men dragged her to a room and raped her on the order of a village jury, but none of the hundreds of bystanders would help her.
The woman and her father said no one from the crowd dared to object to the verdict of the traditional jury of village elders because they feared for their lives. "They kept dragging me toward the room," the woman said, speaking in a television interview from Muzaffargarh, a town near Meerwala, her home village in the central province of Punjab. "My father, uncle and myself begged for mercy from them and the people sitting there but no one came to our help."
http://helpthebishops.com/Pakistani%20Woman%20Recalls%20Jury.htm



Chinese woman forced to watch gang rape and burning death of her sisters

June 1998
JAKARTA, Indonesia -- Human rights and women's aid groups have begun to document what they say appears to have been an organized campaign of assaults, gang rapes and killings of ethnic Chinese women during three days of rioting in Jakarta last month. The aid workers say they have talked with dozens of victims or relatives of victims, and they estimated on Tuesday that more than 100 women and girls may have been attacked and raped in Jakarta alone as their neighborhoods were burning between May 13 and 15.There were reports of similar attacks during riots in other cities that preceded the fall of President Suharto on May 21.


http://www.colorq.org/HumanRights/Indonesia/Jakarta.htm


A year ago the barbaric French phenomenon looked vaguely relevant. Now it looks scary and prophetic. When 11 young Muslim men were accused of pack raping a 14-year-old French girl in a cellar, politicians, judges and sociologists finally began to expose and explore the terror of tournantes.
Denmark presents a similar story. Last year, Flemming Balvig, a criminologist at Copenhagen University, confirmed the French experience of this barbaric rite of passage into manhood for some of these young men.
French and Danish experts say perpetrators of gang-rape flounder between their parents' Islamic values and society's more liberal democratic values falling back on the most basic pack mentality of violence and self-gratification. The progressive Danes offer immigrants advice about the nature of Danish culture and how Denmark's liberal sexual attitudes cannot be equated with Danish girls "asking for it".
Even the wider Arab world is confronting the costs of a culture that can treat women as second-class citizens. Two weeks ago a ground-breaking report by Arab scholars, commissioned by the UN, revealed that half of all Arab women can neither read nor write. The Arab Human Development Report 2002 found that Arab women's participation in political and economic life rates the lowest in the world.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,4718201,00.html


End.


It seems all right for the rapists to label the girls “Ausie Pigs” but somehow its wrong to mention that the individuals that committed this crime were “Muslims”. Not in my camp the press should never be allowed to whitewash this fact.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Perhaps I should have been a bit more explanatory. There’s statistics in the article and many other articles I’ve read.

For one thing their religious leaders thrust the blame at the females for dressing provocatively. Is that so?

BS I have family in Australia and the outcry from the Imams and Sheikhs against them for their sadistic acts was more than just to appease the press. it was for humanity. Can u not think for urself? ok so u say ALL the articles have said MUSLIM (i have read the sydney tribune's reportage on this story and didnt find it written once, please all ur links would be nice) if they DO, then surely that should spark a few flames in ur head? is that not done for a reason? to further blacken the name of islam when their religion has nothing at all to do with the crime?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha


BS I have family in Australia and the outcry from the Imams and Sheikhs against them for their sadistic acts was more than just to appease the press. it was for humanity. Can u not think for urself? ok so u say ALL the articles have said MUSLIM (i have read the sydney tribune's reportage on this story and didnt find it written once, please all ur links would be nice) if they DO, then surely that should spark a few flames in ur head? is that not done for a reason? to further blacken the name of islam when their religion has nothing at all to do with the crime?


Sorry I didn't mean all the religious leaders.

Further this discussion has spread beyond Australia. I don't need to blacken Islam as far as I'm concerned it's black enough.

9/11 has become a catalyst that has opened the eyes of humanity to the dangers of Islam.

The Australian press has done a wonderful job.

You say that you have family in Australia. So what?

I?m quite aware that there's an outcry from the religious leaders in Australia. This started after the conviction as far as I can tell.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha


BS I have family in Australia and the outcry from the Imams and Sheikhs against them for their sadistic acts was more than just to appease the press. it was for humanity. Can u not think for urself? ok so u say ALL the articles have said MUSLIM (i have read the sydney tribune's reportage on this story and didnt find it written once, please all ur links would be nice) if they DO, then surely that should spark a few flames in ur head? is that not done for a reason? to further blacken the name of islam when their religion has nothing at all to do with the crime?


u want links go to google.com and do a search and you'll find plenty.just in case here's one.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.html


again i say hats off to the press.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel


This is the most racist, irrelevant rant I've heard. Why is this stuff not considered offensive by the moderators of this board? Why is this not a violation of the "Rules of the Road"?

Why is the sky blue? Why is water wet? Why is a wheel round?

Now you have me quivering in my boots! How does it become racist to post the fact about Radical Islamic Fundamentalism? Dream on?

Prove that it’s a religion of peace and I’ll gladly remove my post!

Furthermore if any moderator wants to remove it because they believe that they are untruthful statements remove the post.

[minusthejihad]

These sick ####'s remind me of many of the roaming Chaldean pre-pubescent gangs I grew up around in Detroit. They hang out in groups, wear the same Fila wardrobe (because they actually think it stands for Forever I Love Arabs), drive Irocs (because they actually think it stands for International Race of Chaldeans), smell of Drakar and Polo, and pick on innocent individuals who have no chance to defend themselves against 20 people. But get one of these punks alone and they cower like a red-headed stepchild from backcountry Kentucky. The sad part is, most of their parents are so busy running shady party-stores, they have no time to educate their children As Iraqi Catholics they are different, but the mentality is the same:

"I'm a weakling, ugly, can't even formulate my own opinion, and can't get a girl. I guess I'll join up with a group of other idiots, engaage in some mob psychology, and maybe get to beat someone up or rape them along the way."

Very sad and depressing

[cerulean]

Same article as mentioned in the initial post, but easier URL:

http://jewishworldreview.com/0802/steyn.html

[L@mplighterM]

Thank you for pointing out that I forgot their supporters. Read the whole thread!

Quote from above post:

I would like to make it clear that I don’t believe that every Muslim is a rapist!

End quote.

The press has an obligation to report the facts. I fully agree with the press.


In my opinion Islam is violent religion that advocates murder and much more.



If I posted that all Lebanese Muslim are rapist you would have a case.


If you don’t like the posts report them to a moderator!

[Haifa]

I have no comment on the topic but have a comment on the website you provided as source

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/23/1030052975310.html



On August 4, the man took the leading role in an attack on a 14-year-old travelling home by train to Punchbowl. He was one of four youths who approached the teenager, sitting beside her, putting his arm around her in a rough fashion and placing his right hand on her thigh.

He tried to move his hand to her groin area before asking: "Will you f--- me? Come on, you'll like it, it's really big."

Later he said: "You're a slut, will you come out with me?

The woman was twice punched and threatened with violence before being grabbed around the neck by another gang member who held a condom in her face.

While still aboard the train, H masturbated in front of her. When she tried to turn away and said "you wonder why people don't like the Lebanese", he slapped her.

During the attack, H received a call from other gang members in which he told the caller: "I've got a slut with me, bro, come to Punchbowl."

Judge Finnane said he was satisfied that had the teenager not escaped, H and the caller were planning to abduct and rape her.

H's crimes were cowardly, contemptible, premeditated and warranted stern punishment.

However, H, whose mother gave birth to the first of eight children at 12, had an IQ of 67, putting him in the lowest 1 per cent of the population. "I give weight to evidence he is remorseful, that he can be rehabilitated and has some intellectual disability."
"

A question: were the people in the train watching while he was masturbating?!

look at the vocab:

"his hand on her thing"

"Will you f--- me? Come on, you'll like it, it's really big."

"While still aboard the train, H masturbated in front of her. When she tried to turn away and said "you wonder why people don't like the Lebanese", he slapped her."


WHAT KIND OF NEWS WEBSITE IS THIS? lololol


lolololol I wish the CNN was like this.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel

You've concluded this how? A thorough reading of the Quran and an understanding of Muslim philosophy?





I agree fully with the various reporters and spokespeople. If you want to discuss the Koran go on the religious thread and do some reading and make some posts. Muslim philosophy? For some Muslims its rape, kill and conquer. Does that sum it up or is there more?

[Simon]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I agree fully with the various reporters and spokespeople. If you want to discuss the Koran go on the religious thread and do some reading and make some posts. Muslim philosophy? For some Muslims its rape, kill and conquer. Does that sum it up or is there more?


L@mplighterM, one can hardly blame the muslims for following in the footsteps of the pedophile mohammad, can one? Forced himself on what, 28 women (names posted by Ezra somewhere; it as not been refuted) including a 9-yr old girl "because his equally perverted Allah told him to do so."

Slowly but surely, Islam is being recognized for the malignant blot that it is. And we are moving into a "Clash of Civilizations" a la the theory of Samuel Huntington.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Simon



L@mplighterM, one can hardly blame the muslims for following in the footsteps of the pedophile mohammad, can one? Forced himself on what, 28 women (names posted by Ezra somewhere; it as not been refuted) including a 9-yr old girl "because his equally perverted Allah told him to do so."

Slowly but surely, Islam is being recognized for the malignant blot that it is. And we are moving into a "Clash of Civilizations" a la the theory of Samuel Huntington.


That's exactly what's happening they are following in the footsteps of Mohammed.

[Mediocrates]

You don't have to engage people you don't want to either.

[Haifa]

Actually at that time what mohammed did was hardly considered pedophilia.
I mean ghandi's wife was 11 and this was what.. 100 years ago?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel
Nicely bigoted comment. And the Archie Bunker award goes to...

For a moment I thought I was havng a debate with a rational, sane, balanced debator. My mistake...


I’m not into debating I post what I post. The End! To those that agree with my opinion fine to those that don’t fine.

[ayesha]

QUOTE, from the one of the sites u gave: (smh.com)

"it was rather unfair that the racist's ethnicity had been reported because these boys had completely disaffiliated themselves from their culture and their religion." (leb muslim association)

"yes it is unfair that the vast bulk of law abiding lebanese muslim boys and men should be smeared by association." (miranda devine)

[Mediocrates]

That's really very true and what you are seeing is merely politically exploitive. If there were roving gangs of young Shanghai men they would be identified as "Chinese Gang Members" not Confusian Rapists. It would be up to some due process to understand whether they were motivated by or identified with some twisted mutation of their religion.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha
QUOTE, from the one of the sites u gave: (smh.com)

"it was rather unfair that the racist's ethnicity had been reported because these boys had completely disaffiliated themselves from their culture and their religion." (leb muslim association)

"yes it is unfair that the vast bulk of law abiding lebanese muslim boys and men should be smeared by association." (miranda devine)

Again I disagree with you the fact that they were Muslims isn’t a pertinent fact. Muslims belong to a religion called Islam and these brave individuals are merely following that religion.

These individuals should and must be identified.

In the case of the Islamic Fundamentalist would you label them Australians, British, Swedes, Danes, Germans, etc…and forget about the fact that they are Muslims? I’m sure the Islamic Fundamentalists would love that.

Why not throw in the towel and hand the Fundamentalist the world on a silver platter?

[elke]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


Again I disagree with you the fact that they were Muslims isn’t a pertinent fact. Muslims belong to a religion called Islam and these brave individuals are merely following that religion...



I don't think that we are in a position to really judge that these individuals are "merely following that religion", when they are going on a rape and mayhem rampage. Ayesha, who is a Muslim, does not seem the type that would do that. Neither does Mr. Monsoor Ijjaz (sp.?), whom I have seen on numerous occasions, and who strikes me as an extremely reasonable person.

In fact, such characterizations are disruptive to the war on terrorism, just as profiling based solely on ethnic background is. Instead of using our knowledge and understanding as tools to sharpen the anti-terrorism tactics and prevent unnecessary problems, such arguments tend to muddy the clarity of the whole purpose of the enterprise.

[L@mplighterM]

I’m not focusing specifically on the Australian case. There are those that say Islam is a peaceful religion I’m not one of them. Can Islam be a peaceful religion? Perhaps!

There are females that believe that Islam is a religion that respects them they are wrong.

I believe in racial profiling and a matter of fact its being done all the time.

I’m not concerned with offending anyone relating to anything that I post about Islam. I post the truth and I don’t have to resort to blatant lies!

Has the religion been hijacked by Fundamentalist? I don’t think so!

In my opinion the ones that rape, pillage and cause terror are the true followers of Islam not visa versa.

It appears to this observer that there are those that are weakening in their resolve to maintain the perspective that Islamic Fundamentalists are dangerous. I’m not one of them! I will never be one of them!

Again I write that the Australian Press, Danish Press (where they reported that 75% of gang rapes are being committed by the Muslims that represent less than 4% of the population. I posted it somewhere on this forum)Dutch Press are doing a wonderful job.

Don’t shoot the messenger!

[elke]

There is a difference between saying that "75% of the rapes were perpetrated by members of a given community", vs. "what they are doing is just following their religion".

The response should depend on another question altogether: namely, "what percentage of the given group is involved in these crimes?" If the answer is "all", the group's activities can - and should - be curtailed. However, such is not the case with the Muslims.

No, religion cannot be ignored altogether, since it is being used to collect and brainwash the adherents of "Islamofascism". However, by not recognizing the political nature of the beast, we are playing directly into the hands of the fundamentalists.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by elke
There is a difference between saying that "75% of the rapes were perpetrated by members of a given community", vs. "what they are doing is just following their religion".



Mohammed started the religion and the followers are merely following in his footsteps.

snip:

The die was cast; Islam was to be a religion of conquest with the sword. After the battle of Badr, Mohammed dared to manifest his hostility to the Jews openly. A Jewess, named Asma, who had written satirical verses on the battle of Badr, was assassinated, by command of Mohammed, as she lay in bed with her child at the breast.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=699&letter=M&search=mohammed


Perhaps things are getting better now after all only up to 80% of the Muslim world would support an action similar to this. I still think the Islamic Fundamentalists would kill the child as well today.

[L@mplighterM]

snip:

Engaging in crime. Muslims are only 4% of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?id={7C7BF9B5-FABA-410F-B6BC-0B695DEF9118}

Of course the female Muslims wont say anything lest they fall victims of honor killings.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel


You've got some SERIOUS issues to work out in therapy.


I’m not in denial like some individuals. Everything that I write can unfortunately be supported by statistics. I don’t make the news I merely make comments based on facts.

Personally I couldn’t care less what Islamic countries do behind their borders unless it’s a threat to western stability.

There have been many instances where Islamic extremist intentionally murder Israeli pregnant women, shoot infants and the defenseless. The majority of Muslims (based on polls) justifies these acts as being righteous. In some cases the approval rating for such acts has reached 80%.

I suppose that in some countries that equates to 2 out of 10 Muslims that do not approve of such acts but 8 out of 10 do.

Based on these statistics it’s an outright lie to label Islam as a peaceful religion.

I’ll enter therapy the moment that I even think that terrorism against civilians is justified.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel


Where are the statistics coming from? 80% of the Muslims in the US justify the killing of innocent people? Please cite a reliable source.


I DO NOT believe that 80% of the Muslims in the US support such actions. If you?re interested in statistics start reading the posts on the forum.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


Mohammed started the religion and the followers are merely following in his footsteps.

snip:

The die was cast; Islam was to be a religion of conquest with the sword. After the battle of Badr, Mohammed dared to manifest his hostility to the Jews openly. A Jewess, named Asma, who had written satirical verses on the battle of Badr, was assassinated, by command of Mohammed, as she lay in bed with her child at the breast.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=699&letter=M&search=mohammed


Perhaps things are getting better now after all only up to 80% of the Muslim world would support an action similar to this. I still think the Islamic Fundamentalists would kill the child as well today.

that's bull. I always thought jewish sites were honest. I will definitely be more cautious about trusting jewish sites from here on in. Or even stop visiting them altogether. what utter bull

[Vic]

Originally posted by ayesha
that's bull. I always thought jewish sites were honest. I will definitely be more cautious about trusting jewish sites from here on in. Or even stop visiting them altogether. what utter bull It's the same as with any other group, Ayesha :p. The internet is freely accessible, and any moron or whatever can put everything s/he likes in it. Don't blame all "Jewish sites" on one. (Didn't you just link to Rabbi Sacks' site, btw.? ;))

[ayesha]

he (pbuh) had epilepsy? some MORE bull!

im not even gona waste my time with the rest of the lies on that 'honest' jewish site.
what a damn shame

hey vic. yeah, i guess i see where ure coming from. :)
Not lamplighter's fault he's gullible eh?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha
he (pbuh) had epilepsy? some MORE bull!

im not even gona waste my time with the rest of the lies on that 'honest' jewish site.
what a damn shame

hey vic. yeah, i guess i see where ure coming from. :)
Not lamplighter's fault he's gullible eh?




Originally posted by ayesha


that's bull. I always thought jewish sites were honest. I will definitely be more cautious about trusting jewish sites from here on in. Or even stop visiting them altogether. what utter bull



I think that if anyone wants to get personal they should do so in PM.

I'll tell you a little bit about myself I couldn't care less what you call me and as a matter of fact I've been called worse than gullible. It doesn't hurt one bit!

It's been clearly established by historians that Mohammed was a sadistic sociopath by any standard. All the aishas and Vic's in the world wouldn't be able to convince me that Islamic Fundamentalist bastards aren't sadistic sociopaths following in Mohammed's footsteps.

Jewish infants have been intentionally wiped of the face of the earth by the Islamic Fundamentalists and that cannot be denied. Newborns (perhaps suckling at their mothers breasts) were wiped of the face of the earth by Islamic Fundamentalist sociopaths on 9/11.

What part of history are you going to deny next?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel


Which historians? Any reliable, unbiased sources we can look up?


The key word is unbiased and I’m glad that you used that word.

Islam has a lot of whitewashing ahead of it especially since 9/11. Mega bucks are being poured into the PR machine like countries like Saudi Arabia these days.

It wasn’t in anyone’s interest to lie about Islam in the early 1900’s. I quoted from an encyclopedia from 1906 and I provided the link.

Further passages can be found in the Koran that etches Mohammed’s mindset when he wrote it. Is the Koran unbiased or is it not to your liking?

Mohammed raped and murdered innocent Jews and he further advocates his followers to slaughter Jews in the Koran.

I’m not going to waste my time responding to your one liner questions anymore. Instead of me having to prove what I write why don’t you disprove it?

[Mediocrates]

I'll put on my history hat for a moment.~~~~

What do you do with this information whether it is true or not? That is, whatever the real or imagined history or hagiography of Mohammed, what difference does it make?

How do we know what really happened. Who actually compiled and edited and wrote the Korans we see today? For example almost all extant Torahs are from Greek sources, not Hebrew. The Greek was pretty honest to the original but still it is Greek and certainly not Aramaic, Elbaite, Egyptian or any of of the other source languages from the Torah. The Torah was compiled over a period of years by groups of people many of whom are nameless and somewhere around 400-500BCE they closed it.

So down through today no one really knowsmany of the so called details like how large is an ephah or a cubit or what was the name of Lot's wife or why the story of Moses receiving the tablets is chronologically mixed up or even why the Book of Job is even there at all.

The point is, ancient texts are just that. Looking for modern 'facts' in them is sometimes pointless because that is not the point they serve. The point they serve is to TEACH A LESSON and it is the TEACHER that teaches it. Anyone can read for literal sense but then why would you even need religion to do that? It's never about the actualy nouns and verbs and place names it is about what we bear away from them.

It's like someone showed me the 'Bible Code' and I thought what a great stupid load of **** this is. How do you even know how the columns and rows are supposed to be laid out, how many panels and how many lines are on each one. You draw any conclusion you wanted from "I killed Paul" to "Evis died for your sins".

[L@mplighterM]

Whether history is right or not the fact remains that Islam has evolved into a religion that spawns Islamic Fundamentalists and their supporters.

Whether history is right or not the fact remains that Islam has evolved into a religion that justifies honor killing.

Whether history is right or not the fact remains that Islam has evolved into a religion that justifies Islamic Law.

Whether history is right or not the fact remains that Islam has evolved into a religion …

Continue and complete the sentences!

[ayesha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It's been clearly established by historians that Mohammed was a sadistic sociopath by any standard.

I hear you Mediocrates but still lamplighter put up his answer, and I want something to support that. I'll reiterate Manuel. Which historians would they be? Any names?
If you dont have any, dont come out with any more anti islamic propaganda rabble, cos that rubbish makes my blood boil. :mad: :mad:as for the PM garble i wasnt trying to hurt u lamplighter by calling u gullible - just stating the obvious. but sometimes truth hurts. :(

of course u r entitled to ur opinion about Islam, but some people are "deaf and dumb" to the........

continue and complete the sentence

[elke]

There is always a historian somewhere out there to support any sort of position you'd like. It seems to be a Law of History of some sort... :D

IMO, this is one of the reasons the humanity as a whole is in the bind it is in: we are supposed to learn from history, but many of its lessons aren't clear. This is partially because the very historians who are supposed to tell us what these lessons are, are biast to their subject, partially because the available information is scanty, and partially because the "truth" is much more complex than we suspect.

[Mediocrates]

There is a difference between real history and synthetic history between information and revisionism. I honestly don't know anything about Islam & I'm not trying to say I do. I think though that performing post religious historic forensic psychology is fruitless.

In 50 years we'll still be debating how America's "Founding Fathers" were no more than a bunch of rich oppressive scions of wealth who lived one "freedom" and preached another. Ok maybe that's even true, but so? It doesn't change what they helped accomplish no matter their personal failures and hypocricies. It's the same with religion. I'm sure there are some radical LDS's (aka Mormon) who point to Exodus to claim the right of polygamy. I'm sure there are hard right Christian fundamentalists who point to Deut. as an excuse to keep their wives out of the workplace or to beat their kids.

None of that actually matters at all. It is without any merit to look for a justification for what you do if what you do is wrong. That is the most basic precept of Tzadek, of Justice. It doesn't matter what book or God or voice in your head or drunken molesting uncle made you do it. All those rationales do is mitigate the punishment.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha



of course u r entitled to ur opinion about Islam, but some people are "deaf and dumb" to the........

continue and complete the sentence

Oh Gee wiz and by golly am I really entitled to keep my opinion about Islam?
Does the invitation also stand for all the others that don’t share your opinion?

[L@mplighterM]

The death rate is 100%.

Let your professor try to twist that statistic!

[L@mplighterM]

Snip:

The Facts
The following are some real teachings of Islam:

Men are superior to women (surah 2:228).

Women have half the rights of men: in court witness (surah 2:282) and in inheritance
(surah 4:11).

A man may punish his wife by beating her (surah 4:34).

A man may marry up to four wives at the same time (surah 4:3).

A wife is a sex object for her husband (surah 2:223).

Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam (surah 9:29).

A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).

A Muslim apostate must be killed (surah 9:12).

Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands (surah 5:38).

Adultery is punished by public flogging (surah 24:2).

Resisting Islam is punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet
(surah 5:33).

Fate decides everyone's eternal destination (surah 17:13).

Every Muslim will pass through Hell (surah 19:71).

Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins (surah 55:54- 56) &
(surah 52:17,19).


http://www.islamreview.com/articles/facade.shtml

[Mediocrates]

Well as long as you stand for something, then.

[L@mplighterM]

I’m not getting into a religious discussion! Not here or anywhere else!

But I see by your post that the Koran clearly indicates that females are inferior to men. I suppose that’s why they are treated poorly in Islamic countries and in some western countries.

Thank you for enlightening the readers of the forum.

[elke]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
The death rate is 100%.

Let your professor try to twist that statistic!

...but yet a whole industry, wealthy and successful at that, has arisen out of "twisting" that statistic. If you are truly interested, I'd be happy to oblige you with some pointers as to how that's done :)

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel


You already have. Any time you challenge anyone's faith, you have.

Garbage!

[ayesha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


Oh Gee wiz and by golly am I really entitled to keep my opinion about Islam?
Does the invitation also stand for all the others that don’t share your opinion?

your opinion is one thing, ur opinion clouded with "facts" that the gullible will take at face value is another. know the difference.
it seems ur "facts" contain quite a bit of fiction

[ayesha]

Manuel. :) I defer to your good sense and am exceedingly grateful to you for taking the time to answer him (although a couple could do with elaborating and refuting more). :p Anyhow, I admire your patience, but if I were you I'd just ignore him. People like Ezra and lamplighter don't deserve your time and effort they have their own 'agenda'....AND because they're narrowminded ***** (edited by moderator ). :D period.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by elke


...but yet a whole industry, wealthy and successful at that, has arisen out of "twisting" that statistic. If you are truly interested, I'd be happy to oblige you with some pointers as to how that's done :)

I know exactly how studies and statistics can be skewed.

Nevertheless some statistics are unfortunately correct.

I'm not on this forum to whitewash Islam and even if I or anyone else wanted too there just isn't that much calcimine in the world.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha
Manuel.

People like Ezra and lamplighter don't deserve your time and effort they have their own 'agenda'....AND because they're narrowminded ***** (edited by moderator ). :D period.


I can assure you that I'm quite proficient in American Slang but I'm a gentleman and I would never use obscenities in a forum.

In the other thread that you started I posed these questions.

quote:

Originally posted by ayesha


And with regards to killing in general, then there are many ayats (verses) and ahadith forbidding this. Qur'an 5:32

"..we ordained for the children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation, or to spread mischief in the and, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. and likewise if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind."



I believe your post # 1 is misleading to say the very least.

It seems that you cast away the Extremist Fundamentalist by claiming they are not true followers of Islam/Allah and therefore they aren't Muslims.

Am I to believe that the passage that I quoted from your original quote is supposed to somehow forbid Fundamentalists from committing homicidal acts (western standards)?

Snip:
Surah al Maida verses 32:

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, ?..

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ayesha/chap6.htm

What does retaliation of murder mean and what is the statue of limitations according to the Koran?

What constitutes mischief ?

You have refused to answer because you know exactly what I'm getting at.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Manuel


What are you getting at? Please, spell it out explicitly.



The question wasn't directed at you!

[ayesha]

language is certainly different across the pond. something normal is now obscene..strange

[ayesha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM



I can assure you that I'm quite proficient in American Slang but I'm a gentleman and I would never use obscenities in a forum.

In the other thread that you started I posed these questions.

quote:

Originally posted by ayesha


And with regards to killing in general, then there are many ayats (verses) and ahadith forbidding this. Qur'an 5:32

"..we ordained for the children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation, or to spread mischief in the and, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. and likewise if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind."



I believe your post # 1 is misleading to say the very least.

It seems that you cast away the Extremist Fundamentalist by claiming they are not true followers of Islam/Allah and therefore they aren't Muslims.

Am I to believe that the passage that I quoted from your original quote is supposed to somehow forbid Fundamentalists from committing homicidal acts (western standards)?

Snip:
Surah al Maida verses 32:

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, ?..

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ayesha/chap6.htm

What does retaliation of murder mean and what is the statue of limitations according to the Koran?

What constitutes mischief ?

You have refused to answer because you know exactly what I'm getting at. [/B]

no, please what are you getting at? :rolleyes: go ahead im eagerly awaiting

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ayesha


no, please what are you getting at? :rolleyes: go ahead im eagerly awaiting



Guess what ?

I'm putting you on ignore!

[abu afak]

Originally posted by ayesha
BS I have family in Australia and the outcry from the Imams and Sheikhs against them for their sadistic acts was more than just to appease the press. it was for humanity. Can u not think for urself? ok so u say ALL the articles have said MUSLIM (i have read the sydney tribune's reportage on this story and didnt find it written once, please all ur links would be nice) if they DO, then surely that should spark a few flames in ur head? is that not done for a reason? to further blacken the name of islam when their religion has nothing at all to do with the crime?

Pakistanis as well as Lebanese it seems too

Gang rapists told age, culture no defence
By Natasha Wallace
March 2, 2004


Three Pakistani gang rapists who are facing life in jail yesterday begged a judge to be pardoned, citing cultural differences that led to the brutal attack, immaturity on their part and hardship within their families if they were imprisoned.

But Supreme Court Justice Brian Sully said "culture or no culture", a strong message needed to be sent to other young men that such horrific sex crimes against women will not be tolerated in modern society.

Andrew Haesler, for one of the defendants, known as MMK, 17, said his client was immature and had lived in Australia for two years without the "restrictive boundaries" in his home country.

But Justice Sully said the crime could not be passed off as a "youthful indiscretion that has somehow gone wrong".

"Sixteen or not, what he did is absolutely repellent behaviour, and it's adult-type behaviour," he said. "It has to be established once and for all that culture or no culture, wherever he came from, however old you are, this cannot be tolerated in modern society."

Five males, four of whom are brothers, were found guilty last year of nine counts of aggravated sexual assault in company - which carries a maximum life sentence - on two girls, aged 16 and 17, at the brothers' Ashfield family home on July 28, 2002.

The girls were repeatedly raped, threatened with knives and bullets and one was told the other had been killed because she had resisted her attackers. None of the men can be named because the younger brothers, MMK and MRK, 18, were minors at the time. Another man, known as RS, is 25.

Two of the men, known as MSK, 25, and MAK, 23, sobbed openly in court, maintaining their innocence and begging for "another chance".

The brothers are representing themselves because they believe an anti-Muslim conspiracy has prevented a fair hearing. Their father, a practising doctor, told the court they should be pardoned because they "did not know the culture of this country".

Justice Sully said the victims' impact statements had greatly affected him: "I have not heard . . . anything like it . . . something proper needs to be done to get the message out to the adolescents and teenagers."

The men are the first to be convicted of the new offence of aggravated sexual assault in company, which carries a maximum life penalty.

They will be sentenced on March 12.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/01/1078117369680.html?from=top5

[Kev]

If not, then why is it relevant that they are Muslims? Ayesha rightly points out that the religious background is not usually mentioned.


Its important because these boys first played the race card by suggesting they wouldn't use a lawyer because there was an anti-Muslim conspiracy.

Secondly, they asked for lenience claiming they were immature and had lived in Australia for two years without the "restrictive boundaries" in his home country.

In other words, without Sharia Law, it was Australia's fault for not being more restrictive.

Its really quite simple to understand!


I read that these boys were from Pakistan, not Lebanon and their father was a doctor!

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/01/1078117369680.html?from=top5






Hmm, no time now to check back but it seems that the original story is not the same story I was thinking of, the one with the boys from Pakistan.

[andak01]

Kev, you make a good case that they are hypocrites, not that they are good Muslims. These are like the guy who murders his whole family and then finds Jesus. Why does anyone need a religion to tell them they can go rape? Rape is a crime about lack of control, and religion and morality is about maintaining control.

[Kev]

Well, there will be those that disagree with me no doubt but I don't necessarily fin this story all that important just because they were Muslims............until they themselves played the race card.

These boys were animals.
They exist in all faiths.

There was something very inherently wrong with this whole family long before the issue of religion came into the mix, IMO.

[ibrodsky]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, either. People get axed to death in New York City every weekend:

EDIT: /sarcasm off


SOHAG, Egypt (Reuters) - Egyptian authorities deployed some 1,000 police around a southern town on Saturday to forestall any Muslim-Christian clashes after two Christian men were killed in a street brawl, security sources said.

The Christians were axed to death after a donkey being ridden by a Muslim man slipped on the wet roadway outside their house in the town of Salamoun, about 350 km (220 miles) south of Cairo, they said.

The donkey rider was later arrested and questioned. Witnesses in the town said there had been no further violence but the situation was tense.

Salamoun, a Nile valley town of about 40,000 people, is close to 40 percent Coptic Christian but was also a stronghold of militant Islamists who fought the government in the 1990s.

Source: Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&u=/nm/20040306/wl_nm/religion_egypt_deployment_dc_1&printer=1)

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Kev
Well, there will be those that disagree with me no doubt but I don't necessarily fin this story all that important just because they were Muslims............until they themselves played the race card.

These boys were animals.
They exist in all faiths.

There was something very inherently wrong with this whole family long before the issue of religion came into the mix, IMO.

That may be, but you should take a look at this before agreeing with andak01.

andak01 justifies raping "war widows" (otherwise they would starve) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&postid=82078&highlight=imamonazi#post82078)

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
This has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, either. People get axed to death in New York City every weekend:




No they don't, not really.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
That may be, but you should take a look at this before agreeing with andak01.

andak01 justifies raping "war widows" (otherwise they would starve) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&postid=82078&highlight=imamonazi#post82078)

:D Funny, but enough now, don't you think? Well, I got the point, andak justifies raping, and you want to prove that and emphasise that over and over again, right?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Ahava
:D Funny, but enough now, don't you think? Well, I got the point, andak justifies raping, and you want to prove that and emphasise that over and over again, right?

No, the point is that andak01 is a fraud.

Like many Islamists living in Western countries, he pretends to be a moderate with Left-wing views. This is simply a tactic. Andak01 is an Islamic Fundamentalist and at the end of the day the only thing he has in common with Leftists is opposition to the War On Terrorism.

I'm old enough to remember the Iranian Islamic revolution quite well. During the 1970s, Iran's Islamic Fundamentalists formed a tactical alliance with Iran's Leftist students. They recognized that the Left could help them overthrow the Shah but lacked the organization and leadership to seize power. In the end, thousands of Iranian Leftists were imprisoned, tortured, and executed.

Today, Islamists can no longer hold conferences in the U.S. at which fiery speakers denounce the U.S. government while voicing support for terrorists. But they noticed that many Leftists harbor deep hatred for the government, and for some reason that same government is committed to defending Leftists' rights. So we have the spectacle of Islamic Fundamentalists parroting many of the Left's complaints--though clearly for very different reasons.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No they don't, not really.

I should have ended that post with


/sarcasm off.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Ahava
:D Funny, but enough now, don't you think? Well, I got the point, andak justifies raping, and you want to prove that and emphasise that over and over again, right?

And over and over and over. Can Ibrodsky answer a question of what kind of person asks permission to rape? Rape is committed by people who don't have any control over their animal instincts, not by people who are delaying making decisions in their lives because they don't want to do something wrong. The fact is that no rapist ever asked permission to rape. That is the assertion Ibrodsky is making.

I notice he calls me a liar and a fraud day and night and then uses something that he THINKS I've said to prove his point.

I know that to him we are all a one dimensional force of rapine and pillaging, that the concepts of monotheism, charity, prayer and sin are not under any circumstance to enter into any discussion of Islam, but this is truly beneath contempt. Anyone with common sense knows that no major religion praises rape, regardless of anything that I say or anything that some Imam in Campertown, South Africa has to say. Use your brain for something besides hatred.

[Kev]

Regardless of what Andaks motives are..............and I do agree he has some motives..............show me a set of numbers that would tell me how many Muslims rape women in the west, whether that be the US, Australia, Canada, etc.........forgetting what they do in their own home countrys, for that is an entirely different argument.

If the numbers are exceptionally high, lets say in the area of 65% or even in the lower area of 35% of all Muslims commit rape while in the West..............fine, you may be right but if the numbers are closer to 1 or 2%..........I believe we have a problem that doesnt stem from their religious beliefs but from sort of inherant family dysfunction.

I could show you plenty of Protestants that rape women or kill them but it doesnt certainly mean that a majority of them do.
( What they may do in Ireland I dont wish to know )


Look the bottom line is that I too dont like Muslim fundamentalists and I will also agree that in Germany there were moderate Germans that werent able to stop the Holocaust or that many moderates eventually were caught up in it itself........and relate that to many Muslims today.

I wont argue that fact.

But, I dont think it does any good to show each and every rape, homocide, robbery, etc, especially in the West and suggest it is only due to their religious beliefs.

To do so, will take any credibility away from the crimes that truly are religiously based.


I too am old enough to recall Iran.
I will be 45 in a few weeks so I am of age, although admittedly I was a bit young at the time to have been aware of its impact, as I would be today at my age now.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Kev
Regardless of what Andaks motives are..............and I do agree he has some motives...

I've got a point of view and I've got my own biases. Whether that equates to some dark, secret agenda- well, everyone's entitled to their opinion.


I could show you plenty of Protestants that rape women or kill them but it doesnt certainly mean that a majority of them do.

I don't think a lot of people would become rapists even if it were legalized. There are, I hope a good portion of the population that are basically decent human beings.


Look the bottom line is that I too dont like Muslim fundamentalists and I will also agree that in Germany there were moderate Germans that werent able to stop the Holocaust or that many moderates eventually were caught up in it itself........and relate that to many Muslims today.

If you are talking about Muslims getting caught up in hatred of Jews, I believe that it is a dangerous thing. Not many countries in the world have hate crime laws. Some of our own hate crime legislation came into being after a string of Church Burnings in the eighties. In America, the largest portion of hate crimes are still committed against Jews. In the end, there is very little that separates the hatred some Muslims feel for Jews from that bred in European skin head communities or other extremist groups. Even the arguments are the same. And I see a corelation between failed economies and racism. People may hold racist views anyway. But when they are the most frustrated, they look for someone to blame.

[Kev]

I've got a point of view and I've got my own biases. Whether that equates to some dark, secret agenda- well, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Perhaps bias would have been a better choice of words.
I will agree with you there.


I don't think a lot of people would become rapists even if it were legalized. There are, I hope a good portion of the population that are basically decent human beings

There I disagree with you.
If we dont see many here today it is only because we have strong laws against doing so, not to mention it is a crime that will bring shame upon someone, not to mention the fear of what happens to rapists in jail.

Where I dont agree with you, is in the area of certain Arab/Muslim countrys where it isnt considered a crime to rape kill or treat women very poorly in other areas.

We all know very well what a gang type of mentality can produce.
Those 4 brothers, although I believe were inherently ill to begin with, most likely fed off of one another which helped to produce the crimes they committed.



In the end, there is very little that separates the hatred some Muslims feel for Jews from that bred in European skin head communities or other extremist groups. Even the arguments are the same. And I see a corelation between failed economies and racism. People may hold racist views anyway. But when they are the most frustrated, they look for someone to blame.


Although I will agree with you when you suggest that racism bubbles up to the top more so when the economy is supressed, the anti-semitism shown towards Jews by the American Arab/Muslim community has been around far longer than a supressed economy.


All I am saying there Andak, is this............you yourself may or may not be anti-semetic.
Only you know for sure where you stand on this issue but lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not and are equally a friend to the Jews.

No matter how spirtual or even "enlightened" you may be as a person, if push came to shove, I dont believe for one moment you wouldnt side with your Muslim brothers.

Now, understanding this doesnt make me hate you, but it does cause me to be weary of you.

Its one thing for you to be in this forum trying to change peoples opinons of your faith but I personally would prefer to see you in some Muslim based forums trying to change their opinons of Jews.

Any Muslim who honestly can do that will garner my support 150%

[andak01]

Originally posted by Kev
Its one thing for you to be in this forum trying to change peoples opinons of your faith but I personally would prefer to see you in some Muslim based forums trying to change their opinons of Jews.

Any Muslim who honestly can do that will garner my support 150%

I don't need a board to come in contact with Muslims. Whatever views you see posted here are my views as spoken to the Muslims I come in contact with in my own community. I don't get any death threats. On the contrary, I am invited into people's homes and have even been invited to speak in public on several occassions.

The boards are in fact a sounding board (pardon the pun). There is an audience here, but a rather small one. I estimate that no more than 50 or so people read most threads, whereas even on a small website, the number would be in the hundreds.

One thing I've said before and I'll say again. Israelforum software rocks! If I want to navigate around, search or track responses to my posts, this is as good as it gets. The moderators here, have my respect as well. I attempted to run a board by myself and found it was way too much work. They should probably open a thread "best of the scrapings", just so that people can appreciate how much garbage they pull off without making this seem like a heavily moderated board.

I try not to pull this card often, but on several occassions I have been offended enough to report a post. I never expected 100% action, and I don't get it all the time. But often enough, a thread does get ammended. On at least one occassion, I asked that one of my own threads be taken off. That happened.

Compare all this to the unmoderated CR board, where 90% of the posts were just recently wiped out. Months of work, and bam, it's gone.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by andak01
I don't need a board to come in contact with Muslims. Whatever views you see posted here are my views as spoken to the Muslims I come in contact with in my own community. I don't get any death threats. On the contrary, I am invited into people's homes and have even been invited to speak in public on several occassions.



I believe you misunderstod Kev.

She wasn't suggesting you post on Muslim boards in order to come in contact with Muslims. She was suggesting that if you really are interested in reducing hostility between Muslims and Jews that you would do better to spread that message among Muslims.

Since you spend alot of time on discussion boards, how about it? I'm sure people here would be very interested in hearing about the reception you get when you tell Muslims at SoundVision.com or the like that they should put away their anti-Semitism and get over Israel. Of course, it requires a good deal of courage to do that.

I've seen Muslim discussion boards that use the same software as IsraelForum, though the implementation is usually not nearly as elegant.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by andak01

If you are talking about Muslims getting caught up in hatred of Jews, I believe that it is a dangerous thing. Not many countries in the world have hate crime laws. Some of our own hate crime legislation came into being after a string of Church Burnings in the eighties. In America, the largest portion of hate crimes are still committed against Jews. In the end, there is very little that separates the hatred some Muslims feel for Jews from that bred in European skin head communities or other extremist groups. Even the arguments are the same. And I see a corelation between failed economies and racism. People may hold racist views anyway. But when they are the most frustrated, they look for someone to blame.

Actually, hate crime laws are a dangerous thing, too. You cannot force people to change what they think through legislation. There are already laws against vandalism and assault. If a country or local community sees that is has a problem with people who single out a specific group for enmity there are other ways of dealing with that other than enacting new laws.

A couple of problems with "hate crime" laws are (1) they require examining what the perpetrator was thinking and not just what they did and (2) they can only create resentment among groups that have not been awarded the status of being targets of hate crimes.

To wit, why is it a worse crime to threaten certain groups but not others? If particular groups are frequent targets, then greater effort can be put into defending them and catching the culprits. Passing "hate crime" laws is the easy way out.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by andak01
And over and over and over. Can Ibrodsky answer a question of what kind of person asks permission to rape? Rape is committed by people who don't have any control over their animal instincts, not by people who are delaying making decisions in their lives because they don't want to do something wrong. The fact is that no rapist ever asked permission to rape. That is the assertion Ibrodsky is making.

I notice he calls me a liar and a fraud day and night and then uses something that he THINKS I've said to prove his point.

I know that to him we are all a one dimensional force of rapine and pillaging, that the concepts of monotheism, charity, prayer and sin are not under any circumstance to enter into any discussion of Islam, but this is truly beneath contempt. Anyone with common sense knows that no major religion praises rape, regardless of anything that I say or anything that some Imam in Campertown, South Africa has to say. Use your brain for something besides hatred.

Nonsense. This is just another example of andak01 misrepresenting what I said in order to deflect attention from what he said.

Andak01 accuses me of depicting Muslims as "one-dimensional." But when I point to good Muslims who are unambiguously opposed to terrorism, such as the Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA (http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/site/wrappers/splash.asp)), he hurls accusations at their leader. Instead, he considers CAIR--two of whose leaders have been arrested for involvement in terrorism--as an example of an organization that truly represents Muslims.

In fact, I have said that there are some positive aspects of Islam. Unfortunately, these are lost in the haze of victimhood, racism, violence, and totalitarianism that envelopes most of the Muslim world. What irks andak01 is I don't accept his assertions that terrorism is the result of not having tanks and rape is the result of poverty. Unlike andak01, I believe individuals are responsible for their actions.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by andak01
I notice he calls me a liar and a fraud day and night and then uses something that he THINKS I've said to prove his point.


Originally posted by ibrodsky
Nonsense. This is just another example of andak01 misrepresenting what I said in order to deflect attention from what he said.


In other words, ibrodsky and andak01 don't like eachother. :D

[andak01]

I don't know any other poster on this board that is challenged for his very presence as much as I am. I really don't have to give any justification at all for why I post here. It's a question that I have attempted to answer in the past, but appearantly never to anyone's satisfaction.