European Hypocrisy and Racism [Archive]

NewsGuy

12-19-2001, 09:21 PM

It seems that the Arab-sponsored anti-Israel and anti-Semitic public PR campaign is working well in Europe. (Not that Europe ever needed any encouragement to be Anti-Semitic).

The following was reported in the Jerusalem Post and is based on reports by AP and Reuters. The European viewpoint explained here is worth keeping in mind when reading about the French and Belgian criticism of Israel and their support of Arab terrorists:

"LONDON (December 20) - The diplomatic career of French Ambassador to Britain Daniel Bernard was said to be in jeopardy yesterday, after he was quoted as having referred to Israel as "that shitty little country" which threatens world peace.

The undiplomatic remarks were made at a private gathering at the London home of Lord Black of Crossharbour, chairman of The Jerusalem Post's parent company Hollinger Inc. They were referred to - anonymously - in a column published in the Daily Telegraph on Monday by Black's wife, Barbara Amiel.

In her column, which laments that anti-Semitism has become a respectable sentiment at London dinner tables, Amiel noted the ambassador of a major European Union country "politely told a gathering at my home that the current troubles in the world were all because of 'that shitty little country Israel.' "

"Why," she quoted him as saying, "should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?"

Amiel did not name Bernard, a former French government spokesman said to be a close confidant of French President Jacques Chirac, but he was quickly unmasked by the media as the unnamed "ambassador of a major European country" and his career was said to be "under threat."

Bernard's spokesman Yves Charpentier said Bernard cannot remember the reference.

Charpentier said Bernard was shocked to see media reports of a private dinner conversation he had with Black that attributed the remark to him and depicted him as anti-Semitic.

"He doesn't remember saying that," Charpentier told Reuters.

Asked if Bernard would apologize, Charpentier said: "He has no intention of apologizing. He doesn't feel there is any need for him to do so."

...

A senior diplomatic source here declined to speculate on the effect these remarks could have on Bernard's career, but told The Jerusalem Post "an ambassador who speaks in such terms is not diplomatic and there are implications to be drawn from that."

He also noted the plethora of negative images of Israel in the media "has made it more acceptable to be hostile to Israel" and such images might be serving as the catalyst "for allowing people to be more open now about anti-Semitism."

In her column, Amiel described how the unnamed doyenne of London's political salon scene "made a remark to the effect that she couldn't stand Jews and everything happening to them was their own fault." When this comment was greeted with shocked silence, wrote Amiel, the hostess chided her guests for their presumed hypocrisy: "Oh come on," she was quoted as saying. "You all feel like that."

"Once," noted Amiel, "that remark would have cost her license as a serious political hostess, but clearly she believes the zeitgeist is blowing her way.""

NewsGuy

01-09-2002, 02:31 PM

From AP and printed in the JPost.:

French Jews are not ready to pack up and leave for Israel, but a wave of anti-Semitic acts has them extremely worried about their safety and their future, a French Jewish leader said today.

Roger Cukierman, president of the Representative Council of French Jewish Groups, known as CRIF, said he believes France must do more to protect Jews and Jewish institutions in France and more aggressively prosecute and punish people who commit anti-Semitic acts.

"These are very serious acts against the freedom of religion, freedom of education and liberty," Cukierman said in a telephone interview. "It's the duty of French authorities to protect these liberties, and we hope they will do everything necessary ... to ensure that new events do not happen."

A wave of anti-Jewish violence broke out in France in autumn of last year after Israeli-Palestinian fighting escalated in the Middle East. In many cases, incendiary devices were lobbed at synagogues.

...

"The greatest number of acts of violence against Jews in Western Europe have been taking place in France," Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchoir said in Jerusalem on Wednesday. "We got many calls from French Jews who are very worried and even afraid."

takeo

01-09-2002, 07:18 PM

I'm sure many Israeli politicians made remarks about Libanon as "that little shitty country", so can we accuse them of being anti-Arab anti-semites?
This is not an anti-semitic remark, maibe it was an anti-zionist remark. And it is true that Israeli policy not to compromise with UN-resolutions is jeopartising the whole Middle East for decades already. It was a remark about Israel, remember, not about all Jews in general. Maibe not very dimplomatic for a diplomate to say such a thing but certainly not anti-semitic. And yes, israeli policy (and the uncensored reports about it in Europe, unlike America) is causing people to make such remarks.
About more anti-semitism in France, that's just Arab frustration for what's happening in the Middle East. But still there are a lot more racist crimes conducted against Arabs than against Jews in france. (both are dispisable)
the frensh laws are very strict: anyone making a racist insult will be persecuted, if it is against jews or Arabs or anyone else, it doesn't matter(or did you wish special laws against anti-semitism which are tougher than against racism against other peoples?). some of the things people said here (for example that arabs are animals) would be subject to persecution in France.

NewsGuy

01-10-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by takeo
I'm sure many Israeli politicians made remarks about Libanon as "that little shitty country", so can we accuse them of being anti-Arab anti-semites?...

It was a remark about Israel, remember, not about all Jews in general....

If you're sure about this, then perhaps you could point to a record of such remarks? I have not heard such comments being made by any Israeli political leader.

But even if they would, there is a big difference between Lebanon which is at a state of war with Israel and actively supports, harbors and allows supply of weapons to Islamic terrorists who have murdered hundreds of Israelis.

On the other hand, France is NOT at a state of war with Israel. It is supposedly a trade partner and supposedly an ally of Israel.

But the anti-Israel comments do, in fact go right to the heart of anti-semitism, because when government officials start publicly humiliating another country or nationality, this directly leads to national hatered and anti-semitism in the case of Israel.

In the minds of most people, there is no difference between the character of Israel and the character of the Jews. This is why such anti-Israel remarks from governemt officials do actually amount to a green light for anti-semitic attacks.

I think that was the point of Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Melchoir.

And the proof ios the next article shoin a sharp increase in anti-semitic violence in France, showing the strong connection between the public's skewed view of Israel and their attitudes about Jews in general.

takeo

01-12-2002, 01:54 AM

"On the other hand, France is NOT at a state of war with Israel. It is supposedly a trade partner and supposedly an ally of Israel. "

Yes, that's a difference with Libanon (but so you agree that all what Libanese are calling Israel, i can imagine a lot worse than "that little shitty country", is permitted because Israel conducted so many crimes in Libanon?) , but France has some moral standards in world-politics (i know sometimes hypocritically) and condamns most countries who violate un-resolutions and abuse human rights. France always strongly condamned Arab terror attacks on israel but as well condamns the occupation and setlements policy for example. it also condamns Moroccan occupation of south-sahara. But both with Israel and Morocco it still has more or less friendly and good trade relations. (i think one can not condamn a country's policy without taking consequences, that's hypocretical, the same should happen as with Yougoslavia)

"But the anti-Israel comments do, in fact go right to the heart of anti-semitism, because when government officials start publicly humiliating another country or nationality, this directly leads to national hatered and anti-semitism in the case of Israel. "

They don't humiliate Israeli citizens by condamning its policy, if this would be the case no single country can have criticism on another country's decisions. Than the condamnation of Haider could be interpreted as a racist remark against all austrians. (in fact that's what Austrians accused Belgium to do, exactly the same as israel).

"In the minds of most people, there is no difference between the character of Israel and the character of the Jews. This is why such anti-Israel remarks from governemt officials do actually amount to a green light for anti-semitic attacks. "

Most people see a great difference between Israeli policy and Jews in general, thanks to many Jews who don't support Israel's policy. not all.
the Anti-semitic events had indeed to do with the policy of Israel, as the most attacks happened in the beginning of the intifadeh when 100's of palestinian children and youth were killed.
the remark had nothing to do with this, it was long after. Besides, these Arabs don't listen to French diplomats.
And if anti-semitism arises from israeli policy it means that there is something wrong with israeli policy and we have to work harder to make clear to anyone that many Jews, even most French Jews, don't support all Israel's decisions.

NewsGuy

01-14-2002, 09:00 AM

"But the anti-Israel comments do, in fact go right to the heart of anti-semitism, because when government officials start publicly humiliating another country or nationality, this directly leads to national hatered and anti-semitism in the case of Israel. "

...

"In the minds of most people, there is no difference between the character of Israel and the character of the Jews. This is why such anti-Israel remarks from governemt officials do actually amount to a green light for anti-semitic attacks. "

I stand by these obvious statements of mine and I reject the notion that the blame for anti-semitism is connected with Israeli policy.

In fact, there has never been a decline in European anti-semitism during times when Israel was in advanced stages of negotiating peace with the Arabs, nor when Israel gave land to the Arabs, nor has there been a reduction of anti-semitism when Israel eased the restriction on the Palestinian terrorism authority.

European anti-semitism has deep roots in history, long before there was a state of Israel.

takeo

01-14-2002, 09:14 AM

Real anti-semites are only a minor part of the European people, at least since WWII. But israeli actions can provoke some negative feelings towards all jews in general (mostly with people who are not smart enough to see difference between Israel and all jews, and mostly people who are close to the Palestinians, the Arabs). i can assure that there is MORE anti-semitism (or negative feelings towards Jews) than during the peace-agreements and negociations. Yesterday in the arab quarter the images on the television of destroying palestinian homes by israeli bulldozers, the destroyal of palestinian (build with frensh money!) airport, and the fact that the pa can do nothing against it, provoked an angry reaction and a shop where the zionist flag was destroyed.
I don't agree with such actions but can understand them (just as in israel arab shops were destroyed after suicide actions). i wished the PA could do something against those bulldozers and tanks, i is better than hamas taking reprisals against innocent civilians.

NewsGuy

01-14-2002, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by takeo
...i wished the PA could do something against those bulldozers and tanks, i is better than hamas taking reprisals against innocent civilians.

Well, there are a few simple things that the PA can do to stop the bulldozers:

1. Prevent residences from being used by Arab terrorists as bases from which to carry out attacks on Israelis.

2. Abandon terrorism and destroy the Islamic terrorist infrastructure.

3. Stop the Arab incitement against Israel and against Jews in general.

As you well know, these simple actions would bring about an end to the bulldozers, as well as an Israeli troop withdrawal and an easing of travel restrictions.

The PA has all the weapons and all the political influence it needs to accomplish these things, which would lead to a better life for Palestinians, but it has chosen violence and terrorism instead.

Too bad for the Palestinians that their corrupt terrorist leadership has brought this needless suffering to their own people again.

takeo

01-15-2002, 01:01 AM

it is upon the occupiers to take action and start negociations, but apart from that:

"1. Prevent residences from being used by Arab terrorists as bases from which to carry out attacks on Israelis. "

they did so for many years, what was the result, still more settlements build and still military posts surrounding palestinian towns.

""2. Abandon terrorism and destroy the Islamic terrorist infrastructure. "

Arafat did that too, in the 90's Hamas almost disappeared and its leaders were imprisoned (arafat was even condamned by human right groups for too much cracking down on Hamas) but again no result. Now Israel made him too weak to do that, why should hamas care about a man who can't even leave his resisdence and doesn't have a propper army? every action they do is making hamas stronger and the PA weaker, this seems to be a deliberate action to finish all peace-talks.

"3. Stop the Arab incitement against Israel and against Jews in general. "

the incitement will certainly not stop, not even Arafat can do that, when Israel is destroying everythig in the occupied territories. They are not going to stop the incitement against troops who just destroyed your office. The encitement can only be stopped with a reasonable Israeli policy.
During the 90's the encitement against israel largely stopped(except a few incontrollable extremist groups, who by the way came mostly from israeli held territory), but again no results, more settlements, bibi, you guys shouting that Israel shouldn't give up this and this, shouldn't allow this and this, the murder on the architect of peace,...

raven

01-15-2002, 12:59 PM

Short and not so sweet: Same people doing the same things for the same antisemetic reasons. This has been going on in one form or another for several thousand years. More things "seem" to change the more they stay the same.

Im so "shocked" at the attitude of the Europeans. My goodness, who could have predicted that after more than 1/3 of us were 'culled" THIS CENTURY, by members of these very same people, that Europe would continue try to set up a situation where they could be assured of "the job" being finished.

In WW2, who knew what? and when did they know it? and did they let it be accomplished by pretending they didnt know and therefore, purposely taking no action? Did they use the excuse of winning the wider war to LET Hitler do what THEY really wanted to do? Hmm? Previously classified information from many countries have come to light to show thats just what happened.

Im sick and tired of it myself. Other Jews, how bout you? Time to stop this pussy footing around and say we know what happened then and that today is just a continuation of the same old thing.

Palistinians and their cause is just a device to get rid of us-- or if they cant entirely do that, having a "anytime Terror State to awaken" right next door to Israel will help limit the success of Israel and that just what the world wants. We are and always have been way too much competition--this is the other reason, besides and same old same old.

takeo

01-16-2002, 09:42 PM

This is really paranoia or just an excuse to continue a fascist policy without having to listen to criticism.
It is a great offense to say that all Europeans supported Hitler and the Holocaust, this makes me angry, more than 30 million of Russians lost their lifes in fighting Hitler, my grandfather was one of those by the way!
but also in Belgium, France, denmark, Norway, Serbia (1/10 of the population died), Greece, Poland, ... people did everything to resist the nazi's, if you would say germans or austrians or even Swiss, ok, i can agree with you, but saying Europeans in general is a big ugly lie. And isn't it cynical that the most radical zionists (lomplighter for example) today defend the Europeans who collaborated with Hitler (because of common anti-arab antipathy)?
The genocide and the palestinian question are two completely different questions. The Palestinians don't have to suffer for what the Nazi's did to the Jews, right? People defending the Palestinians do so because they see injustice and fascism and because Israel doesn't commit to international rules. The Chinese and the Africans also defend palestinians, but they had never jews on their territory and have no history of anti-semitism.
Most people recognise Israel, but it doesn't mean that Israel has the right to destroy another people to be "strong".
it is not because you once were the victim of a robbery that you have the right to rob someone yourself!

NewsGuy

01-19-2002, 03:31 PM

From the Jerusalme Post (Jan 20)"

The wave of anti-Semitism sweeping through France has triggered mounting concerns about the safety and welfare of Western Europe's largest Jewish community. Though a surge in violent attacks against Jewish schools and synagogues in recent months has elicited the usual condemnations of anti-Semitism from French politicians, it seems that France's government has yet to recognize the seriousness of the problem or take appropriate measures to counter it. While no one, fortunately, has been killed in any of the anti-Jewish assaults, it is time for France to take bolder action to stem this ominous and growing phenomenon.

...

According to [Israeli] Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior, there were 320 anti-Semitic incidents in France in 2001, or nearly one every day. In the first week of this year, there were three violent anti-Semitic attacks alone in France, including an assault on a synagogue in the Paris suburb of Goussainville, where a gang of thugs hurled rocks and firebombs, smashing the synagogue's windows and damaging the building. On December 30, vandals attacked Otzar Hatorah, a Jewish school in the southeastern Paris suburb of Creteil, with firebombs, two of which exploded and caused extensive damage to several classrooms. This incident came just two months after a Jewish elementary school in the southern city of Marseilles was attacked by arsonists, who burned down part of the school and then left graffiti reading "Death to the Jews."

...

That a senior French diplomat would be willing to make such undiplomatic comments ["the current troubles in the world were all because of 'that shitty little country Israel.'"] is shocking in itself. But what is even more distressing is the reaction of the French government to the entire affair. Rather than immediately dismissing Bernard from his post, as was most assuredly warranted by his despicable remarks, the French chose to defend him, refusing to terminate his employment. It is perhaps little wonder, then, that Melchior rightly labeled France "the worst Western country concerning anti-Semitism" in a recent interview with the French daily Le Monde.
...

It was just six decades ago that France's collaborationist Vichy regime, headed by Marshal Petain, enthusiastically took part in rounding up French Jews and turning them over to the Nazis. Some 110,000 French Jews were murdered by the Germans, a number that would have been far lower had it not been for the shameful manner in which the French authorities and police cooperated with Hitler's Final Solution. While that ignominious stain on France's record will never be removed nor forgotten, it nevertheless behooves the French government to act quickly and with determination to stamp out any future manifestations of anti-Semitism.

...

At a meeting on January 6 with representatives of various religious groups, French President Jacques Chirac reportedly "expressed his sharp denunciation of every act of anti-Semitism and... said that these phenomena contradict the principles of the Republic," according to his spokesman. Such statements are certainly welcome, but they must also be backed up with deeds, such as providing greater security for Jewish institutions and launching a crackdown on extremist groups.

Full Story (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/01/20/Opinion/Editorial.41935.html)

NewsGuy

01-20-2002, 11:19 AM

More on the French problem of growing anti-semitism:

From JPost.com:

Hundreds of people gathered in the Paris suburb of Sarcelles today to protest an increase in anti-Semitic violence in France.

The president of France's main Jewish organization, the Representative Council of French Jewish Groups, said this month that the attacks have made French Jews worried about their safety and future.

In a speech today at the suburb's synagogue, former French finance minister Dominique Strauss-Kahn said anti-Semitic acts were becoming "more and more frequent."

"These are events that have caused worries in France's Jewish community, and for some people, anguish," Strauss-Kahn said.

A wave of anti-Jewish violence first broke out in France last autumn after Israeli-Palestinian fighting escalated in the Middle East. In many cases, incendiary devices were lobbed at synagogues.

New attacks have occurred since September 11. In October, for example, vandals burned down part of a Jewish elementary school in southern France and left behind spray-painted messages such as "Death to the Jews."

In December, a rabbi and two members of his congregation were attacked as they left a synagogue in the northwest city of Rouen. One of the men suffered a broken collarbone.

takeo

01-20-2002, 04:41 PM

it is easier to post such articles than to respond to my arguments...as i told (and is even stated in this article) anti-semitism in France is a reaction to the war in the Middle-east and israeli agressive policy (and, which is not stated, is purely conducted by Arabs living in France out of frustration for the pictures they see on television daily). as i told as well the ones who collaborated with the vichy-regime are today supportering for Israel.
There have been a lot more ( sometimes deathly) racist crimes against Arabs than against Jews in France, in the last year only, because of the excitation by your good friend Le Pen. This, of course, is NOT stated in your articles.
And the Frensh government denounced all anti-semitic crimes and hardly punished the perpetrators they could find, what could they do more? stop all criticism on Israel maybe and let them kill as many palestinians as they wish and offend as many international laws as they wish too?
.

NewsGuy

01-20-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by takeo
it is easier to post such articles than to respond to my arguments...as i told (and is even stated in this article) anti-semitism in France is a reaction to the war in the Middle-east and israeli agressive policy (and, which is not stated, is purely conducted by Arabs living in France out of frustration for the pictures they see on television daily).

I'm not really sure what your "arguments" are.

If you are referring to your excusing vicious anti-semitic attacks on innocent French Jews, who have no say whatsoever on Israeli policy, then I guess now I am responding to it.

I agree that many people equate their hatred of Israel to a general hatred of Jews, but that is just no excuse for "incendiary devices were lobbed at synagogues." I also directly blame the French oil-slave government for its own anti-Israel remarks which legitimize anti-semitic attacks in the eyes of many French citizens. And moreover, the French government had plenty of warnings that anti-semitism is on the rise and has not done a thing to provide extra security for the Jewish community.

And, as a final point, in fact, you continouosly try to come up with excuses to blame Islamic violence and hatred on the Jewish victims and on Israel. Well, there is no excuse, and it's about time you and many other people started to internalize this reality. The victims did nothing wrong here.

If someone opposes the policy of the Israeli government, there are legitimate ways to address that but certainly not through anti-semitic violence.

takeo

01-21-2002, 01:28 AM

I never searched excuses for anti-semitic crimes, i condamn them of course, even if the israeli policy causes them indirectly(but indeed not an excuse to attack synagogues), but this crimes are no excuse for Israel to just ignore all the Frensh criticism on israel. It is also no excuse to stop the Frensh criticism on Israel.
The frensh government considers illegal occupation, etnic cleansing, shooting at stone-throwing palestinian kids, destroying palestinian facilities and many more crimes to be crimes as bad as the crimes committed by Hamas and other radical groups. This are far more serious offenses than some people who attacked a synagogue, people who have been severely punished by the way(and everywhere in france most synagogues and jewish centers get special protection from the police, even if anti-semitic crimes are less frequent than anti-arab crimes).
the frensh government is doing everything to protect the Jews in France, but of course it will never stop to criticize Israel as long as human rights and international laws haven't been respected.

NewsGuy

01-21-2002, 02:53 PM

"... It is also no excuse to stop the Frensh criticism on Israel."

The enormous rise in anti-semitic crime in France, and the government's failure to provide adequate security for its Jewish citizens really makes French criticism a joke. Worse yet, France's anti-Israel criticism is the direct cause of anti-semitic incidents against its Jewish citizens.

If I were a Jew living in France (which thankfully I'm not), I would get the clear message that Jews are not wanted by this government and I would wonder where the Jewish tax-Francs are going.

I am sorry for French Jews and remind them all who are reading this message that there are alternative countries where they are very welcome.

"The frensh government considers illegal occupation, etnic cleansing, shooting at stone-throwing palestinian kids, destroying palestinian facilities and many more crimes to be crimes as bad as the crimes committed by Hamas and other radical groups."

Yes, the French government is against Israeli policies. But, as a true oil-slave country, it supports Islamic terrorism. Let's not forget that the French government a few weeks ago made sure to keep Hizbullah off the EU's terrorism list.

"the frensh government is doing everything to protect the Jews in France, but of course it will never stop to criticize Israel as long as human rights and international laws haven't been respected."

No, the French government is not doing nearly enough to stop anti-semitic activity. It is actually encouraging it.

And the only time the French government is concerned about human rights is when is anyone but the Jews who are being mistreated.

takeo

01-21-2002, 05:26 PM

Your opinion about France is intoxicated because it is a country that doesn't allow human rights abuses and fascism in Israel. You don't know nothing about France except that it dare to criticise Israel, which is of course an inforgivable crime. By the way France doesn't have very good contacts with most Arab regimes as these are as well guilty of human rights abuses. It has normal economic relations with them as with Israel as well.
You don't know what you are talking about, jews in France aren't oppressed at all and have very high functions in all parts of society, more so than in every other European country, there is no anti-semitism among ordinary Frensh, only among Arabs(and in fact they have nothing against ordinary Jews, only against those who openly support facsism and racism, all the synagogues attacked belonged to rabbi's who gave unconditional support to the extremist policy of sharon).
i can assure you that Jews in france live a lot better and are a lot safer than in Israel. I hope that jews in Israel from frensh origin when come back to their motherland when the situation really explodes in the Middle east as a consequence of extremism.

NewsGuy

01-22-2002, 02:48 PM

"Your opinion about France is intoxicated because it is a country that doesn't allow human rights abuses and fascism in Israel."

But France certainly does allow human rights abuses against its Jewish citizens, at the hands of Arab anti-semites.

Also, just becuase Israelis have democratically elected a government that you don't like, doesn't make it a fascist state. You keep on forgetting this fact.

"You don't know nothing about France except that it dare to criticise Israel, which is of course an inforgivable crime."

No, but btw - who the heck is France anyway to lecture Israel on anything? France has one of the worst records of colonialism and population massacres of the last two centuries, not to even mention deporting its own citizens to various malaria-ridden hell-holes to die in captivity.

"By the way France doesn't have very good contacts with most Arab regimes"

Not true. France has never met an Arab of Islamic country it didn't embrace.

"You don't know what you are talking about, jews in France aren't oppressed at all and have very high functions in all parts of society, more so than in every other European country, there is no anti-semitism among ordinary Frensh, only among Arabs(and in fact they have nothing against ordinary Jews, only against those who openly support facsism and racism, all the synagogues attacked belonged to rabbi's who gave unconditional support to the extremist policy of sharon)."

There is no anti-semititsm among ordinary French? Arabs have nothing against ordinary Jews???

ROFL.... No offense, takeo, but is this comedy hour?

takeo

01-22-2002, 10:06 PM

"But France certainly does allow human rights abuses against its Jewish citizens, at the hands of Arab anti-semites. "

It doesn't, those are punished according to the severe anti-racist laws. This same laws also protect Arab citizens.

"Also, just becuase Israelis have democratically elected a government that you don't like, doesn't make it a fascist state. You keep on forgetting this fact. "

Hitler was also democratically elected, so is Jorg haider in austria (Israel called him a fascist, yet he hasn't killed anyone yet).

"No, but btw - who the heck is France anyway to lecture Israel on anything? France has one of the worst records of colonialism and population massacres of the last two centuries, not to even mention deporting its own citizens to various malaria-ridden hell-holes to die in captivity. "

As i told you before, that is history and the Brittish, etc. did the same. People in France are not proud of this, except those who are today supporting Israel, people who like violence and oppression and believe in the superiority of one people over another.

"Not true. France has never met an Arab of Islamic country it didn't embrace. "

there isn't a single Arab country (with the exeption of Tunisia and the PA maybe) whith whom France has better relations than with Israel. France doesn't recognise southern sahara to be part of Morocco.

"There is no anti-semititsm among ordinary French? Arabs have nothing against ordinary Jews???
ROFL.... No offense, takeo, but is this comedy hour?"

Go to visit France before you make any comments about it.

JustSad

02-05-2002, 03:20 AM

I don' t think it is any use to avoid substantial discussion by just easily discriminating all other opinions ase "hypocrytical", "racist" or anti-semitical".

Maybe Newsguy will be so kind to prove his statement that the European press is "sponsored" by the Arabs.

JustSad

02-05-2002, 03:27 AM

Newsguy should realise that the US and Europe are Israels closest friends.

What does a friendship mean when friends can not discuss matters with each other. Or when one friend does not one to listen to the other as soon as something inconvenient is said.

Europe is not anti-semitic. No way.
But Europe is concerned about the conflict in the Middle East.
Many people feel that this conflict is going the wrong way both for Israel and for the Palestinians.

Many people are just worried. That is not anti-this or anti-that.
That is called caring.

And let it be very clear that there is a big difference between questioning some aspects of the Israeli politics and being anti-semitic.

Let also be clear that having doubts about some aspects of the Israel politics doesn't mean people approve every aspect of the Palestian politics.

Let's try to keep dicussions a little bit intelligent.....

takeo

02-05-2002, 06:20 AM

that's right

NewsGuy

02-05-2002, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by JustSad
Newsguy should realise that the US and Europe are Israels closest friends.

What does a friendship mean when friends can not discuss matters with each other. Or when one friend does not one to listen to the other as soon as something inconvenient is said.

"Inconvenient"?

It is a different story when friends are discussing their world views, but in the case of Europe, they are trying to impose their own Arab-oil-consuming domestic agenda on Israel. They are trying to bring about a situation where Israel is completely destroyed. They provide funding and support for terrorists, funneling tons of cash to the PA, which then spends the European money on missile factories and a boat load of weapons to mass murder Jews, instead of feeding their own poverty-stricken people.

Then "friend" France blocks the EU from declaring the Hizbullah as a terrorist organization altogether, even though they launch missiles into Israeli towns.

So, you know there is an American saying "If those are your friends, who needs enemies?"

With all due respect, it might be inconvenient for you to see the true face of Europe, which is not quite so genteel and civilized as you would like it to be.

NewsGuy

02-05-2002, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by JustSad
Europe is not anti-semitic. No way.

Really?

Is it just an illusion that in France firebombs were thrown at a Jewish temple?

Is it just an illusion that in Paris gunshots were fired at a Jewish schoolbus full of children? or that Jews were beaten savagely by French Arabs and the French police doesn't provide enough protection for the Jewish community?

Is it an illusion that in Europe they hardly ever show the Israeli victims of daily Arab terrorism, but they constantly air shots of Israeli tanks in Gaza, without putting it in the context of guarding against Arab terrorism?

Is it an illusion that at the UN, European countries constantly vote in favor of anti-Israel resolutions that never even mention Arab atrocities against Israeli citizens?

JustSad

02-07-2002, 12:57 AM

In Europe sometimes things happen.

Muslim Churches sometimes are the victim, sometimes a Jewish church is.
And sometimes native Europeans are the victim.

In all cases this is done by small extremist groups of people which operate isolated from the rest of the population.

It is an insult to the well-thinking majority in Europe to even suggest that they approve this or that there is something like a massive increase in racism and antisemitism, like you do.

It is just a laughable and rediculous remark. I find it very hard to believe that someone really thinks this.

Come here, and see for yourself.

You also claim that the press is "biassed" and doesn't show Israeli victims.
The press here is certainly not against Israel.

(Maybe, if you search long enough, you will be able to find a small extremist "newletter" with no circulation, somewhere in a forgotten corner, that will prove your point).

The press actually is very much fact-oriented.
Whenever something happens in Israel, we see it in the paper and on tv.
But i must admit we also see it when something happens in the occupied territories.

For someone like you, who seems to want to believe that Palestinians don't exist at all, this may seem prove for bias.

JustSad

02-07-2002, 06:53 AM

Raven,

aren't you a bit paranoid?
No one in Europe wants to "finish the job".

There is no use for Jews to keep playing a victim role.
Israel is by far the most powerful nation in the middle east.

JustSad

02-07-2002, 07:03 AM

In the case of Europe, they are trying to impose their own Arab-oil-consuming domestic agenda on Israel. They are trying to bring about a situation where Israel is completely destroyed. They provide funding and support for terrorists, funneling tons of cash to the PA, which then spends the European money on missile factories and a boat load of weapons to mass murder Jews, instead of feeding their own poverty-stricken people.

Newsguy, this is the biggest load of bullshit one can write.

Don't forget that my country, the Netherlands, have allways been among Israels most faithfull supporters. That we allways backed Israel and that Israel got loads of money from Holland when the country was still poor and needed buildup. Tens of thousands of dutchmen went to Israel to work as volunteers to build up the country.

Europeans countries do not donate substantial amounts of money to the Palestine. And certainly not to buy weapons. We have build an airport and a harbour, which the Israeli army has destroyed allready. Nothing else, beside a little food-aid.

By the way, European countries donate aid to a great number of poor countries around the world, where people need help.

This has nothing to do with being antisemitical or led by arab oil money.
It is just aid. Nothing else.

Your remark about "with friends like that, who needs enemies?" is totally out of line. But of course if you prefer total isolation, be my guest. You might deserve it.

The idea that Europe is seeking Israels destruction is ridicule and you portray yourself as someone filled with hate, fear, and paranoia.

Negev

02-07-2002, 10:53 AM

i think that newsguy pointed out that your views were pseudo-intellectual nonesense. i agree with that.

while talking down to everyone here you have just been yapping non-stop without ever using a shred of facts to back up your nonesense.

oh, there's no anti-semitism in europe? Who are you kidding?

there's no Arab terrorism? again, this is an example of how ridiculous your ranting is.

in this forum people usually have facts to back up their views. take a lesson from that.

instead of denying the problem first recognize it. that is the first step towards solving it.

Negev

02-07-2002, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by JustSad

...Europeans countries do not donate substantial amounts of money to the Palestine.

more arab-style nonesense and denial. let me get this straight. you're actually claiming that europe does not donate substantial amounts of money to the Palestinians???

what planet do you live on?

JustSad

02-07-2002, 11:42 PM

I am not saying that we don't give money to the palestians.

I said we give limited human aid and some non financial aid, as a reaction to your claim that Europe is financing Arab terrorism and that Europe seeks the destruction of Israel.
Sorry again, this is utterly rubbish.

I tried to make clear that the aid given to the Palestinians is limited, certainly compared to the vast amounts of money that go to other poor countries around the world.

I also said that Europe has allways been supporting Israel, both political and financial, thus making clear that limited aid to Palestians is in no way an approval of any political or military goal oor action of the Palestines.

What do you think? Think that we enjoy seeing innocent blood and brains all over the street when another desperate Palestinian decided to blow himself up in a pizza-bar? Of course Palestine terror makes us sick.

Don't be ridiculous and start reading

NewsGuy

02-13-2002, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by JustSad
What do you think? Think that we enjoy seeing innocent blood and brains all over the street when another desperate Palestinian decided to blow himself up in a pizza-bar? Of course Palestine terror makes us sick.

Don't be ridiculous and start reading

Actually, I think your the one who needs to stop being ridiculous.

I am starting to doubt that the Europeans care at all seeing Jews mass murdered by Arab terrorists.

Please tell me Mr sad, what exactly has Europe done other than say a few insincere words on the topic?

Has the EU convened a special UN security council meeting to make some UN resolutions against the Arabs? No...

Has the EU rejected Arafat for these acts of terror against Jews? No...

Has the EU even listed Hizbullah, which shot missiles into Israeli towns, as a terrorist organization? No...

Has the EU condemned Israel for reacting to the Arab terrorism attack on the Israeli pizza shop? Yes...

Has the EU threatened trade sanctions against Israel for defending itself against Arab terrorism? Yes...

What else can I say.

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 07:07 PM

WIESENTHAL CENTER DISMISSES FRENCH PRESIDENT’S DENIAL OF INCREASE OF ANTISEMITISM IN FRANCE
From the Simon Weisenthal Center
February 26, 2002

The Simon Wiesenthal Center dismissed President Chirac's denial of an upsurge of antisemitism in France as "a politically-induced myopia which only increases the fears of French Jewry", said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Rabbi Cooper said that he and Dr. Shimon Samuels, the Center's European Director, experienced the same response from French Interior Minister Valliant during a meeting two weeks ago in France. "French officials are more than happy to condemn Le Pen and anti-Jewish hate crimes from the far-right, but have steadfastly refused to publicly condemn and deal with over 300 hate crimes against French Jewry inspired by radical Muslim clerics," Cooper added.

"Just last week President Chirac gave an election speech in Garges-Les-Gonesse, a suburb of Paris on 'insecurity and safety', just 200 meters from the site of a recent attack on a school bus of Jewish kids by local Arab thugs. Incredibly, no Jewish leaders were invited to the speech and no mention of antisemitism was uttered by the French President,” he added.

“Is it any wonder French Jews are frightened for their safety and future?" Cooper concluded.