New Peace Plan for 2002

[NewsGuy]

Despite assurances from Sharon and Peres that they are only negotiating with relation to a cease-fire with the Palestinians, the Israeli press reports that Peres is actually discussing a comprehensive political peace plan with Arafat.

Under the newly proposed plan, the Palestinians will get their own state in the territories which they currently control in Gaza and the West Bank. No further land would be annexed to what will be known as Palestine, and Israeli settlement activity would be frozen. Such will be the status quo for a period of a year, during which time there will be a complete cease-fire and negotiations would then commence regarding the control of Jerusalem and further land concessions to augment Palestine.

This plan was developed jointly between Arafat's right-hand man, Abu Ala and Israeli FM, Shimon Peres.

In the past week, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has denied that he authorized those negotiations, or even knew of their existence, then later he made an about-face and revealed that he in fact was aware of the talks, although he supposedly did not agree with all the details proposed. On the other hand, he authorized the continuation of the talks between Peres and Abu Ala.

Regardless of his denials and reversals, it seems that Sharon would be willing to go along with such a plan.

Is this the blueprint for a peace agreement, or a prelude to disaster?

Feel free to weigh in on this issue.

[aid]

Complete cease-fire?

What's that?

I remember seeing it somewhere.

Oh, that was the Oslo accords...

And the Hebron accords...

And the Wye River Plantation accords...

And the Mitchell plan...

And...

The more there is cease-fire, the more there is fire.

We cease they fire...

[NewsGuy]

Yeah, I agree that there is a big difference between the theory of the peace arrangement and the chances of its true implementation by both sides.

In fact, so far there has never been a decrease in Islamic terrorism corresponding to a peace initiative.

Some say this is because the true aim of the Palestinians (which was stated publicly by Arafat) is to simply destroy Israel in stages, and so no peace initiative was ever respected by the Palestinians.

On the other hand, the Palestinians claim that under no agreement did Israel really stop all settlement activity, which they believe then gives them the license to mass-murder Jews through terrorist attacks.

I guess it all depends on one's point of view.

However, the implementation would be a problem not specifically tied into this new peace plan, but one that goes to the heart of whether ANY peace agreement would ever be adhered to by the parties.

For these reasons, I guess that I go back to my original question of whether this new peace initiative, in and of itself, has a chance of succeeding.

What if there was an American or international presence to ensure compliance of both parties?

[L@mplighterM]

By now I think it should be pretty obvious to everyone that the Muslim objective is world conquest.

With the help of countries such as Russia, Germany, USA, etc...... they might eventually achieve their goal. It will take a long time but I'm not expecting civilization to end any time soon.

Just recently Russia supplied parts for Irans nuclear reactors. That laid the groundwork for the development for the eniched uranium that's required for a nuclear weapons. USA was somewhat steamed because of that incident.

Germany sold most of the equipment to Iraq (before the Gulf War) that enabled it to develop weapons of mass destruction.

The list goes on and I could spend hours on this subject. For the rest of Israels existance it will have to be on guard against its neighbours. Sadly the conflict there will in my opinion never end.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Just recently Russia supplied parts for Irans nuclear reactors. That laid the groundwork for the development for the eniched uranium that's required for a nuclear weapons. USA was somewhat steamed because of that incident.

Oddly enough this 5-year deal between Russia and Iran happened right after the WTC attack, and the U.S. kept its mouth shut because the Russians promised to support the US (or at least not object) to the US reprisal in Afghanistan.

It is a worrisome problem that Russia, France, and North Korea are supplying Iran with nuclear capabilities and are helping create yet another Muslim extremist nuclear power, with vast ties to worldwide Islamic terrorism.

This is one of the important news stories that the world press has virtually buried in silence.

You can be sure that when Iran threatens to take over the Saudi oil fields under nuclear threat, that it will be American soldiers who will need to sacrifice their lives to defend the corrupt Saudi dictatorship yet again.

[NewsGuy]

But getting back to the plan of no more land for a Palestinian state, especially after the last year of Islamic terrorism against the U.S. and Israel, it may be one of the most realistic starting points for a peace plan that has been proposed in a long time.

First let's see that Palestinians are able to live in a peaceful independent state in the already extensive land under their control, and then history will judge whether they are able to receive more land from Israel.

[L@mplighterM]

I don't think the Palestinians have a clue what peace means. That's my honest opinion.

As far as their leader goes Sharon should have given the sharpshooter the OK to take him out back in the 1980's. Good riddance.

Further, I think George Bush thinks that if they get their independent state everything will be kosher in the Middle-east.

I'll make a couple of prediction right here and now.

If the Palestinians get what they want they'll be back for more. There's no way there wil ever be peace in the Middle-east.

Technology being what it is more and more countries in that region will develop weapons of mass destruction. Iran was just given the components to eventually develop weapons of mass destruction from Russia.

They most likely promised that they would only use their reactors to generate electricity. At one time Canada supplied India with CANDU Nuclear reactors and India promised not to develop nuclear weapons. India broke that promise. Big surprise.

The 70 Tons of weapons that were just ceased shows exactly how Iran and much of the Arab world feels towards Israel. Non nuclear weapons can kill but not in large numbers like a small nuclear bomb. At some point in the future some suicide bomber will enter Israel with a small nuclear device and take out a city. Then another one and another one. How do you stop that??? You cant.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
At some point in the future some suicide bomber will enter Israel with a small nuclear device and take out a city. Then another one and another one. How do you stop that??? You cant.

Well, this will definitely not be stopped by having a perpetual state of war with the Palestinians.

[aid]

The perpetual war with Palestinians is not Israel's choice.

It is the other way around.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by aid
The perpetual war with Palestinians is not Israel's choice.

It is the other way around.

Agreed.

But it still does not change the outcome ultimately, which is to be able to reach a state of non-war.

To achieve that, it seems that there are 3 choices:

1. The total elimination of the Islamic terrorist apparatus by a decisive full-scale war against the PA and against any other countries like Lebanon and Syria and possibly Egypt, which are responsible for the ongoing terrorism. At the same time, a transfer of hostile palestinians out of Israel and into Gaza, Jordan and possible Lebanon and Egypt.

2. A unilateral separation with ALL that it entails (including a shift of populations where some Israeli settlements are abandoned and some Palestinian settlements are also vacated.) to be able to build a normal international border between Israel and the Palstinians.

3. The ongoing low-intensity war, where both sides are willing to live in near-total economic ruin for a sustained amount of time until the international political climate chages enough to force a settlement on both sides, or there is a favorable change of Palestinian leadership after the Arafat era. This may take a very long time and may at any point, flare up into one of the above scenarios.

I'm not sure that there are other options. if anyone knows of one, please let us know.

[cabcxx]

is a necessary step to peace. The jews have done this, many arab nations have not.

UN prop 242 was approved by every nation on this planet, and
then was vetoed by the US .. Colin Powell said on PBS that US
will NOT veto it again.

Prop 242 more or less requires the 1967 borders to be honored.
gaza [etc] will be returned to the palestinians.

the biggest problem is what to do with Jerusalem itself.
perhaps the example of WashDC is the answer.
In the 1700's Maryland and Virginia decided to 'make a gift'
of this land for the new govt.

Now, DC is NOT a state .. it is NOT owned by any individual ..
it is not run by any religion..yes.. it is a mess and a joke, but
it works peacefully.

I am appalled by some of the posts in this forum .. so many
negative feelings .. can no one envision peace in this region?
has 2 generations of violence wiped out a vision for the future?

In the 1700's NO ONE could see a future with the black man
as equal. Some might say:

'WHAT !! a black congressman !! they'll be WAR to prevent THAT
from happening !!'

Thomas Jefferson compared it to holding a wolf by the ears:

" you didn't like it .. but you didn't DARE let it go either "

100 years after 'letting it go' the future seems to have worked
out for the better.. [not perfect mind you]

Can any of you out there see a bright new future for the region?

[watcher]

The only obvious plan for peace is to finally remove the label "palestine" off Israel. If they cannot behave in a peaceful manner.

[takeo]

The only solution for peace is simple:
give to the palestinians what's theirs, and take what's yours.
give the occupied territories including Eastern Yerusalem (an international solution can be created for the holy places like the temple Mount) to the palestinians, remove the settlements (maybe some solution can be found for the settlements close to the border of israel, those can be incorporated in return for sme territory in israel where mostly Palestinians live) and withdraw your troops.
Also a solution for the refugees can be found, those already living in the west-bank and Gaza can stay there, the others should have the right to return to israel if they wish so, but may also be offered compensation for the losses or establishment in a western country. (approximately 1,5 million people). It would make a final end to this refugee-camps and refugee problems and for israel it's easy to deal with a million people (recently more than a million came from the Soviet-union).
Finally the Golan-heights should be returned to Syria according to the pre-1967 borders, in return of a peace-treaty and non-aggression pact with Libanon and Syria, which implies that both countries recognise the legitimisy of Israel and are ready to persecute terrorists who attack Israel .
the palestinians have to do the same in their borders, probably with aid of international UN-troops stationed in the borders of palestine.
israeli should have the right to visit Jewish sacred places under palestinian police or international protection. the PA should have full autority and ban all other armed groups.
this would be a deal both prosperous for Israel and the Palestinian and would finally make an end to 50 years of violence and hate in the Middle east, some economic cooperation between Israel and its neighbours should devellop as well.
It would be the worst nightmare of extremists on both sides.

[watcher]

You say, "The only solution for peace is simple:
give to the palestinians what's theirs, and take what's yours."

That's fine if the land was originally "palestine" but since it's been Israel through history land in Israel should not be renamed "palestine" once again.
Israel was taken once before and renamed "palestine" should Israel be once again be removed?

you said, "give the occupied territories including Eastern Yerusalem (an international solution can be created for the holy places like the temple Mount) to the palestinians, remove the settlements (maybe some solution can be found for the settlements close to the border of israel, those can be incorporated in return for sme territory in israel where mostly Palestinians live) and withdraw your troops."

"palestinians" have their own lands to occupy in their own countries they came from, they don't have to request any from Israel. Israel is a tiny piece of a part of land on the globe, what justifies "palestinians" a recent name to cover over Israel to require Yerusalem from Israel other than to be a thorn in the side of Israel.

you said, "Also a solution for the refugees can be found, those already living in the west-bank and Gaza can stay there, the others should have the right to return to israel if they wish so, but may also be offered compensation for the losses or establishment in a western country. (approximately 1,5 million people). It would make a final end to this refugee-camps and refugee problems and for israel it's easy to deal with a million people (recently more than a million came from the Soviet-union)."

Yes there were problems when around 2000yrs ago Jewish refugees forced from Israel to surrounding lands met a misrable recurrent history of persecution, even those who remained in Israel which was renamed "palestine" suffered attrocities. So when the label "palestine" was lifted off Israel, "palestinians" which were surrounding peoples moved into Israel were allowed to stay and prosper. Yet all the thanks from them was hatred, from Israels gestures of peace, "palestine" countered with gestures of violence. What can be done? They even included in their charter to push Israel to the sea. If that's the case they must return to their lands all refugees of Israel will return, "palestinians" don't have refugees they have their lands.

you say, "Finally the Golan-heights should be returned to Syria according to the pre-1967 borders, in return of a peace-treaty and non-aggression pact with Libanon and Syria, which implies that both countries recognise the legitimisy of Israel and are ready to persecute terrorists who attack Israel .
the palestinians have to do the same in their borders, probably with aid of international UN-troops stationed in the borders of palestine."

All Israel needs is the land back no more no less. With one of the wars against Israel... Israel won and annexed the Sinai penninsula it was returned... It was never a part of Israel. Yes it was used as a bargaining chip for peace but was again never a part of Israel. Only if it doesn't belong to Israel then should it be returned.
Israel is a very tiny part of a piece of land in the whole world of vast countries yet no more or no less is required. All that is required is to finally have peace.

you say, "israeli should have the right to visit Jewish sacred places under palestinian police or international protection. the PA should have full autority and ban all other armed groups.
this would be a deal both prosperous for Israel and the Palestinian and would finally make an end to 50 years of violence and hate in the Middle east, some economic cooperation between Israel and its neighbours should devellop as well. It would be the worst nightmare of extremists on both sides."

Ever wonder why "palestinians" don't have any sacred places in Israel?

See above or read history for answer.

[L@mplighterM]

I think there was hate prior to 1967 Mr. takeo. There was hate earlier than 50 years ago. There was hate earlier than 100 years ago, etc................................

Further UN Resolution 242 clearly states that borders should be negotiated . As long as there's a State of War there should be no talks.

Personally I don't give a **** about UN Resolutions and I wouldn't give them nothing.

[aid]

recognise the legitimisy of Israel and are ready to persecute terrorists who attack Israel .

Hello,

How can one expect Syria recognize Israel's legitimacy if someone who claims to be Jewish (and apparemtly and most amazingly is - was born Jewish but presently a Communist) does not recognize said legitimacy?

And needless to say, no one, never will "prosecute terrorists who attack Israel" - no more so that does Pakistan in relation to terrorists attacking India or, closer to home, the PA never really jailing terrorists in the best of times.

A US Congressional delegation has just returned from Syria after negotiations with Syrian's progressive dictator (Commie favorite).
Hewas asked the question if Syria would ever recognize Israel provided Israel meets all Syaria's demands. The answer was eloquent evasion: "why should be there a Jewish State? Jews, Muslims and Christians should all live together in peace". The same kind of answer really our resident Commissar and Secretary of the party forum cell is giving us here.

It's all puste balaile, all hopeless BS.

The hatred toward Israel is bottomless. You cannot drain it no matter what you do. The Arabs and Commissars will never love us.

[L@mplighterM]

Claims is right *GGGGGG* I think there's enough circumstantial evidence that there's Islamic Fundamentalists on this Forum.
Not only that I had a linguist buddy of mine look at some print outs from this forum and he's 99.9% certain that there's a person posting using two different nicks.

I'm not going to let Islamic extremists use my views.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by aid
A US Congressional delegation has just returned from Syria after negotiations with Syrian's progressive dictator (Commie favorite).
He was asked the question if Syria would ever recognize Israel provided Israel meets all Syaria's demands. The answer was eloquent evasion: "why should be there a Jewish State? Jews, Muslims and Christians should all live together in peace". The same kind of answer really our resident Commissar and Secretary of the party forum cell is giving us here.
That's an eye-opener, but it is the true position of all Arab countries, with the possible exception of Jordan, whose Hashemite monarchy counts on Israel to save it from Palestinian, Syrian and Iraqi takeover.

Despite all propaganda to the contrary, the vast majority of Arabs have never accepted the right of the Jewish people to live in Israel.

[takeo]

It's clear to me.
i post a well proportioned peace-plan that would be both acceptable to the palestinians and the israeli, and all what i get is "they shouldn't get nothing, i don't give a **** about un-proposals", "jews lived there 2000 years ago so the land is completely theirs" (which, as i told before is a lie and nobody can claim back a land left 2000 years ago, apparently there is no more common sence left so it has no sence discussing this matter further) , Arabs will never persecute terrorists (without giving them a chance to proove it, a real chance, not a new Sharon manoever destroying Arafat and than blaiming he does nothing to stop terrorists, which is another lie because he keeps inprisoning radical palestinians, as much as he is still able to do), they all hate jews, etc. and more of this kind of irrational arguments.
instead of using real arguments, this BS-arguments show that you don't have real arguments to oppose a just peace-plan (except of course that you want to keep the occupied territories and want to expulse the palestinians).

One thing is clear: you don't want peace.

again: Arabs (and Syria) hate israel because what it did to their Arab brothers and themselves, nothing less, nothing more.
if israel would behave properly the hate and violence would disappear or diminish, as happened with Egypt after the camp david agreements (i 'm sure you guys would be against that as well) and with Libanon. And of course Arabs will never really like Israel, one doesn't forget so easily, but they will be smart enough not to attack Israel again, and if they do, israel will have the right to fight back, only IF and only if they agree to a peace-plan.
In fact i'm sure you guys were against Oslo and camp david and the withrawel of libanon as well, since the beginning.
And yes i'm a Jew, start getting used to the feeling that not all Jews are extremist Arab-hating sharon- supporters.

[takeo]

one last remark: one doesn't have to love Israel or even recognise the principle of zionism to recognise Israel as something that exists (within its borders and within un-resolutions of course) and have a non-agression treaty.

[takeo]

sorry i forget this one:
"Further UN Resolution 242 clearly states that borders should be negotiated . As long as there's a State of War there should be no talks. "
It didn't say that borders should be negociated, it says that occupation has to stop and that this should be accompanied by a peace-treaty. So every solution and even talk about peace should start talking about security AND about the withrawel.
It didn't say that there shoukd be peace before negociating, in fact in most wars negociating starts when the war is still going on, otherwise one can always find a reason not to talk.
besides there have been aggressions from both sides.

[watcher]

It just sometimes seems like the prevalent thought is Israel came from nowhere and thus should be erased back to that point, whereas "palestine" always existed since the beginning thus having complete rights to the land. Also somehow the "palestinian" charter to push Israel to the sea has now become BS and a non-existant irrational arguement. Also Israel defense against car-bombings, roadside snipers, suicide bombers, etc... are considered Israeli aggression against an imagined threat. Is that the basis of aggression on both sides?

Also just because I make my statements on this forum doesn't mean that all the others are in total agreement. We each put forth or own points towards these topics subject for debate. But it should be clear PEACE IS DESIRED but it is difficult to attain peace when you are being murdered by people who were given jobs yet many of them want to destroy Israel, they're given fresh water to drink, but many of them want to fill Israel with our blood, allowed to live in Israel in complete peace... But they want more as seen in their charter... "to push Israel to the sea".

[takeo]

"It just sometimes seems like the prevalent thought is Israel came from nowhere and thus should be erased back to that point, whereas "palestine" always existed since the beginning thus having complete rights to the land. Also somehow the "palestinian" charter to push Israel to the sea has now become BS and a non-existant irrational arguement."

You are right about that last sentence. yes, the right to have all of israel and palestine for palestinians only has become BS-as well, because even if the Palestinians were the big majority for more than 2000 years, already several decades there is a huge jewish population living there as well, whatever might be the reason of this (oppression,etnic cleansing, etc. ) it is a fact now. this fact has been recognised by the majority of palestinians and the PA. nowhere in the chter of the PA or the PLO you will find that they have the right to throw all Jews back in the sea. nut of course the jewish point of Jew than israel and palestine are completely Jewish is absurt as well and doesn't correspont to reality. The reality is that Jews and palestines now live BOTH on the same territory, have both the right to be there and have to share the land where their families were born.
History of 2000 years ago is history, stuff for historians and religions, nothing more. history of the last 100 years is what matters now.


"Also Israel defense against car-bombings, roadside snipers, suicide bombers, etc... are considered Israeli aggression against an imagined threat. Is that the basis of aggression on both sides? "

no, the aggression was started by israel in 1967 (and in the 40's against great-brittain and palestinians with an arab reaction in 1948, and in 1955 another israeli reaction) attacking and occupiing and sometimes destroying Palestinian cities and villages and neighbouring arab countries. the violence what followed was a palestinian/arab reaction to that fact and the israeli violence that followed was a reaction to that.

"Also just because I make my statements on this forum doesn't mean that all the others are in total agreement. We each put forth or own points towards these topics subject for debate. But it should be clear PEACE IS DESIRED but it is difficult to attain peace when you are being murdered by people who were given jobs yet many of them want to destroy Israel, they're given fresh water to drink, but many of them want to fill Israel with our blood, allowed to live in Israel in complete peace... But they want more as seen in their charter... "to push Israel to the sea"."

This is only a minority of palestinians who want this. Besides it is not like Israel is doing the Palestinians a lot of favors, they don't have clean water (that one goes to the settlements), they don't have freedom, the jobs are taken away from them regularly and they certainly don't have the same rights as the jews living in israel. Also they don't stop the occupation and build more and more settlements that are not allowed by any peace-agreement Israel signed, and provoke hate to the palestinians, they destroy buildings of the PA, shoot at demonstrating children, ...
As i said the violence comes from both sides, but originated in the fact that Israel is still occupiing and oppressing the palestinians.
As long as this doesn't stop there can't be peace. You can't expect the weak party to take the first step, one can't stop the consequences first and than the reason, this is the wrong logic that will never work.
in south Africa the "terrorist" (as well qualified as such by Israel) ANC didn't take the first step to stop the oppression, it was the racist government that put an end to the fascist laws and constitution and than, as a consequance, violence stopped.

[takeo]

i know all you have different opinions, but still mostly the same, some more extremist than others (lomplighter), but all of the reactions i got were irrational and twisted argurments.
the reason i post on this board is that the current policy of the government is shamefull and harmfull to israel and to all jews around the world as well, because, if they like it or not, they will always be identified with Israel and its actions in one way or another. i consider the sharon-government on the real level of hamas and other terrorist groups, killing innocent victims and accelerating the war, destruction and violence while the only ones that want peace are the Israeli left-wing and peace-movements and the PA.
May Sharon (and his troops and asociates) and Hamas (and its aides and associates) destroy eachother, but leave the people who want a just peace in the middle-east alone.

[watcher]

What happened past 2000yrs ago doesn't count? Is there a new set of rules towards reflecting upon history may I ask? Does it seem that easy to write off historical facts as BS? Why the write-off? Please present your case how "palestinian" squatters who rely on terrorist measures really have a right to live any longer in Israel.

How is it considered aggression when Israel moves back home? It is natural to have displaced squatters when those who hold the deeds return to their homeland. Because Israel knows all to well how it is to be displaced from home Israel still allowed these foreign people "palestinians" to continue to live in their land and have a chance to lead a peaceful existance.

It can never be said that "palestinians" were not employed, or didn't have fresh water, or freedom before their uprising... Just when the car-bombings, suicide bombers, various murders worsened against Israel the trust would obviously have to diminish, therefore "palestinians" had to be seperated for safety of Israel until the matter could be contained and peace to resume.
The murderers are multiplying, the hatred has not been contained to even attempt to view any peaceful measures, some sites you may see "palestinian" children demonstrating with their M16 assault rifles. Israel shouldn't have to police "palestine" yet "palestinians" don't hold themselves in check as a peace seeking potential nation. The offers were given where Israel more than bent over backwards, too much so, yet "palestine" rejected the plan resorting to continuing terrorist measures against Israel. Taking advantage of any building which is closest to the borders to launch their murderous attacks, stating the innocent has been oppressed when such buildings are removed out of frustration of having elimination of such a strategic position to commit attrocities from.

[takeo]

"What happened past 2000yrs ago doesn't count? Is there a new set of rules towards reflecting upon history may I ask? Does it seem that easy to write off historical facts as BS? Why the write-off? Please present your case how "palestinian" squatters who rely on terrorist measures really have a right to live any longer in Israel.
How is it considered aggression when Israel moves back home? It is natural to have displaced squatters when those who hold the deeds return to their homeland. Because Israel knows all to well how it is to be displaced from home Israel still allowed these foreign people "palestinians" to continue to live in their land and have a chance to lead a peaceful existance. "

Again, the palestinians aren't squatters, someone living in a country for (more than) 2000 years isn't a squatter! If so, the uS-americans are squatters, the Turks are squatters, the frensh are squatters, and even the Jewish are squatters in israel( they were not the first in israel, some people were before them).

"It can never be said that "palestinians" were not employed, or didn't have fresh water, or freedom before their uprising... "

It can be said, that was and still is the situation in the refugee-camps and palestinian teritories...

"Just when the car-bombings, suicide bombers, various murders worsened against Israel the trust would obviously have to diminish, therefore "palestinians" had to be seperated for safety of Israel until the matter could be contained and peace to resume. "

peace can only resume when Israel stops its aggression against palestinians, the real reason of all agression against Israel. More oppression will result in more violence.

"The murderers are multiplying, the hatred has not been contained to even attempt to view any peaceful measures, some sites you may see "palestinian" children demonstrating with their M16 assault rifles. Israel shouldn't have to police "palestine" yet "palestinians" don't hold themselves in check as a peace seeking potential nation.
The offers were given where Israel more than bent over backwards, too much so, yet "palestine" rejected the plan resorting to continuing terrorist measures against Israel. Taking advantage of any building which is closest to the borders to launch their murderous attacks, stating the innocent has been oppressed when such buildings are removed out of frustration of having elimination of such a strategic position to commit attrocities from."

the plan was rejected because it was not even close to offering palestinians the rights they deserve and an equal state with equal rights as Israel. the violence occured because israel refused to talk further, allowed extremist provocations and reacted to demonstrations(not armed initially) with brutal force.
It also reacted to the stone-intifadeh in the 80's with brutal force, so guns or no guns it doesn't matter for israel. also the collective punishments of the palestinian population and PA for every suicide action conducted by an extremist groûp is producing anger and hatred. Houses were not only destroyed on the border line but as well in eastern Yerusalem (it is strange that there new build palestinian houses are ALWAYS "illegal" and jewish settlements or buildings become legal very quickly) and elsewhere. punishing innocent civilians in a war is against the geneva-conventions and can only produce more suicide-candidates.
as i told it is upon the occupier and stronger party to start negociations, and if these failed new negociations have to start.

[watcher]

you said,"Again, the palestinians aren't squatters, someone living in a country for (more than) 2000 years isn't a squatter! If so, the uS-americans are squatters, the Turks are squatters, the frensh are squatters, and even the Jewish are squatters in israel( they were not the first in israel, some people were before them). "

Hmmm... Some people before the Jews and you didn't say they were "palestinians"? Yes there were people before Israel moved to canaan, yes it was never "palestine" before, though I've seen some history books state when Israel moved to canaan they started calling Israel "palestine" as if "palestine" is a different word for Israel. If you go by those history books you're right then... talk about self-hating...

I said; It can never be said that "palestinians" were not employed, or didn't have fresh water, or freedom before their uprising...

you replied, "It can be said, that was and still is the situation in the refugee-camps and palestinian teritories... "

Remember there are no "palestinian" refugees, they have their homelands. If you want to use refugees then Israel would more fit that word, yet just returning Israel is called aggressors, defending against violence by "palestinian" squatters again Israel is called the aggressor... Where do you think Israel should exist?

I said; Just when the car-bombings, suicide bombers, various murders worsened against Israel the trust would obviously have to diminish, therefore "palestinians" had to be seperated for safety of Israel until the matter could be contained and peace to resume.

you answered, "peace can only resume when Israel stops its aggression against palestinians, the real reason of all agression against Israel. More oppression will result in more violence."

So allowing more suicide bombers or other blood-thirsty mass-murderers commit their crimes, we would be considered less the oppressors? Perhaps so... less being the key word here.

I said; The murderers are multiplying, the hatred has not been contained to even attempt to view any peaceful measures, some sites you may see "palestinian" children demonstrating with their M16 assault rifles. Israel shouldn't have to police "palestine" yet "palestinians" don't hold themselves in check as a peace seeking potential nation.
The offers were given where Israel more than bent over backwards, too much so, yet "palestine" rejected the plan resorting to continuing terrorist measures against Israel. Taking advantage of any building which is closest to the borders to launch their murderous attacks, stating the innocent has been oppressed when such buildings are removed out of frustration of having elimination of such a strategic position to commit attrocities from.

you state, "the plan was rejected because it was not even close to offering palestinians the rights they deserve and an equal state with equal rights as Israel. the violence occured because israel refused to talk further, allowed extremist provocations and reacted to demonstrations(not armed initially) with brutal force.
It also reacted to the stone-intifadeh in the 80's with brutal force, so guns or no guns it doesn't matter for israel. also the collective punishments of the palestinian population and PA for every suicide action conducted by an extremist groûp is producing anger and hatred. Houses were not only destroyed on the border line but as well in eastern Yerusalem (it is strange that there new build palestinian houses are ALWAYS "illegal" and jewish settlements or buildings become legal very quickly) and elsewhere. punishing innocent civilians in a war is against the geneva-conventions and can only produce more suicide-candidates.
as i told it is upon the occupier and stronger party to start negociations, and if these failed new negociations have to start."

Even when it was back at the time Israel had to deal with rocks realize rocks can kill! It wasn't merely throwing rocks... slings were used which can propel those rocks with deadly velocity, coupled with those well practiced in use of such weapons, they can be used with deadly accuracy. Such lengths "palestinians" had to go through to try to murder Israel...

[takeo]

"Remember there are no "palestinian" refugees, they have their homelands. If you want to use refugees then Israel would more fit that word, yet just returning Israel is called aggressors, defending against violence by "palestinian" squatters again Israel is called the aggressor... Where do you think Israel should exist? "

So they are no refugees, so where did they come from? Most their families lived for centuries in israel /palestine untill they were forced in refugee-camps and can't return, if they are no refugees, why are they in this camps, why don't they return to their ancestral homes in Israel?
Israeli aren't refugees, most came from countries where they were not forced to leave (with some exceptions).




"So allowing more suicide bombers or other blood-thirsty mass-murderers commit their crimes, we would be considered less the oppressors? Perhaps so... less being the key word here. "

No! not allowing this, but allow palestinians to have their state and return to Israel would be the only way to stop hatred and suicide-bombers, who can only survive in an environment of desperation without any hope for a better future, violence and hate.
suicide-bombers are not the real problem, they are only a consequence of the real problem(occupation and refugee-camps), this is something israel has to aknowledge very soon.


"Even when it was back at the time Israel had to deal with rocks realize rocks can kill! It wasn't merely throwing rocks... slings were used which can propel those rocks with deadly velocity, coupled with those well practiced in use of such weapons, they can be used with deadly accuracy. Such lengths "palestinians" had to go through to try to murder Israel..."

Oh really, are stones so dangerous? how many palestinians died in the first Intifadeh and how many Israeli??? if you react in this way to people responding to their desperate situation by throwing stones, than you shouldn't be surprised that hate will reach higher levels, life is so cheap that suicide-attacks become a logical next step.

[NewsGuy]

"No! not allowing this, but allow palestinians to have their state and return to Israel would be the only way to stop hatred and suicide-bombers"

When Barak came to Camp David and offered a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as its capital and tons more Jewish land, it only resulted in more Palestinian violence because they saw the offer of peace and more land as a reward for their terrorism.

Unfortunately, there will not be an end to Palestinian hatred of the Jews. It is an inborn and ingrained anti-semitic hatred.

But that's ok. The only thing that is NOT ok is if the Palestinians act on that hatred. Then they will be dealt with appropriately.

[watcher]

I said; Remember there are no "palestinian" refugees, they have their homelands. If you want to use refugees then Israel would more fit that word, yet just returning Israel is called aggressors, defending against violence by "palestinian" squatters again Israel is called the aggressor... Where do you think Israel should exist?

you answered, "So they are no refugees, so where did they come from? Most their families lived for centuries in israel /palestine untill they were forced in refugee-camps and can't return, if they are no refugees, why are they in this camps, why don't they return to their ancestral homes in Israel?"

Do you ever pay attention to yourself? "palestinians" returning to their ancestral homes in Israel?

you also said, "Israeli aren't refugees, most came from countries where they were not forced to leave (with some exceptions). "

Really now? Then why do you say Israeli? Are you starting to realize Israel was at the homeland before being forced out and renamed "palestine" until the return from the diaspora? So you should know that these people "palestinians" actually have their homelands to return to and can leave Israel alone right?

I said; So allowing more suicide bombers or other bloodthirsty mass-murderers commit their crimes, we would be considered less the oppressors? Perhaps so... less being the key word here.

you say, "No! not allowing this, but allow palestinians to have their state and return to Israel would be the only way to stop hatred and suicide-bombers, who can only survive in an environment of desperation without any hope for a better future, violence and hate.
suicide-bombers are not the real problem, they are only a consequence of the real problem(occupation and refugee-camps), this is something israel has to aknowledge very soon. "

Well if "palestinians" have a problem occupying Israel such as seeing too many living people that aren't "palestinian" then they can stop occupying Israel and move back to their homelands... But as you say there are these "palestinian" refugee camps... Well if their own people are not taking them back that should be telling them something right?

I said; Even when it was back at the time Israel had to deal with rocks realize rocks can kill! It wasn't merely throwing rocks... slings were used which can propel those rocks with deadly velocity, coupled with those well practiced in use of such weapons, they can be used with deadly accuracy. Such lengths "palestinians" had to go through to try to murder Israel...

you replied, "Oh really, are stones so dangerous? how many palestinians died in the first Intifadeh and how many Israeli??? if you react in this way to people responding to their desperate situation by throwing stones, than you shouldn't be surprised that hate will reach higher levels, life is so cheap that suicide-attacks become a logical next step."

So Israel should not have reacted but allow the murders go unnoticed right? How many die when turning a blind eye to such killings, how quick does the world condemn when there is a defensive reaction? Better to keep the death toll to a minimum and try to keep the bloodthirsty murderers at bay, but with so much hatred perhaps they would see life as cheap to harbor such murderous plots and act upon them, hence the suicide bombers, car bombers, crazed gunmen looking for crowds, roadside snipers, etc... How long really should Israel tolerate this within its borders?