Musharaf's ouster.

[varian]

August 15, 2008
Musharraf Set to Resign in Days, Officials Assert
By JANE PERLEZ

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Faced with desertions by his political supporters and the unsettling neutrality of the Pakistani military, President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan is expected to resign in the next few days rather than face impeachment, Pakistani politicians and Western diplomats said Thursday.

His departure from office seems likely to unleash new instability in the country as the two main parties in the civilian government jockey for his share of power. ...

... What remained to be worked out were guarantees for Mr. Musharraf’s physical safety if he stayed in Pakistan, or where he would go into exile. Among the places that Mr. Musharraf is said to favor if he goes abroad are Dubai, Turkey, the United Kingdom or the United States, though his strong preference is to stay in Pakistan, Pakistani politicians familiar with the negotiations said.

Mr. Musharraf also wants immunity from prosecution for any impeachable deeds, which the governing coalition appears willing to grant if he steps down, they said. ...

... The neutrality of the military has actually tipped the scales against Mr. Musharraf, said Arif Nizami, editor of the daily newspaper The Nation.

“They are not even putting pressure on the civilians” to stop the president’s ouster, Mr. Nizami said of the military. “They are saying, ‘If you do it according to the book, it’s none of our business.’ They have pushed against Mr. Musharraf.” ...

... “Everyone feels that the Musharraf era is over,” The Daily Times wrote in an editorial on Thursday. “But no one is actually in the mood to see what it is going to be like to be in the post-Musharraf era.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/asia/15pstan.html?_r=1&em=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

This future of Pakistan will be of interest to the whole region, not just the US. India, China, and Israel will be watching further developments with great interest along with the US.

[ShimonG]

He deserves the same fate as Najibullah of A'stan. that terrorist SOB should be hanged from the nearest lamp post.:mad:

[dayag]

Musharraf resigned today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/world/asia/19pstan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[ShimonG]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4561319.ece
August 19, 2008

Double game that put Pakistan, the pariah country, back on the map
Catherine Philp: Commentary
When Pervez Musharraf grabbed power nine years ago, toppling his civilian predecessor, it was to a roar of national approval and international condemnation.

Democracy had been usurped, screamed the West. But Pakistanis, weary of messy sectarian politics and weak and corrupt civilian rule, welcomed their new military leader.

As the former General Musharraf leaves, he goes less mourned at home than abroad. In Pakistan he is jeered by reformists and religious radicals alike. The country has succumbed to violence. The economy is in the doldrums.

It took the September 11 attacks to turn Mr Musharraf from global villain to Western hero. His bloodless coup had led to Pakistan being thrown out of the Commonwealth, the imposition of sanctions and a dive in foreign relations. But the iron grip he held on Pakistan was to prove to be a godsend for President Bush as Washington prepared to purge Afghanistan of al-Qaeda and their Taleban hosts.

The dust had not settled on Ground Zero when Mr Musharraf agreed to a series of “nonnegotiable” American demands, including an end to Pakistan’s support for the Taleban.

His cosiness with Washington was to become the defining relationship of his rule. It netted him $10 billion in American military assistance, much of which never reached the Army but filtered into the general budget, helping to fuel an economic boom. But it also enraged and radicalised large sections of Pakistani society and helped to recruit thousands to the growing Islamist cause.

In reality Mr Musharraf was playing a delicate double game. Pakistan’s murky Inter-Service Intelligence agency never severed its ties with the Taleban and Islamabad continued to provide cover for the militants even as they pocketed Washington’s millions.

Mr Musharraf became further beholden to the agency when it helped to engineer the acceptance of a 2002 referendum legitimising his rule. Parliamentary elections that year brought victory for conservative religious parties in the tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, to whom he then turned for support. These alliances stymied his declared intention to tackle extremists.

Over the past year Washington’s enthusiasm started to pall, not least over his failure to halt a resurgent Taleban from attacking Afghanistan from their sanctuaries in Pakistan.

Washington, still anxious for a strong leader in Pakistan but increasingly concerned about Mr Musharraf’s broken promises of democratic change, hoped to persuade him to share power with Benazir Bhutto. Her assassination ended that plan.

A Congressional investigation revealed that the Pentagon knew of the diverted military aid but chose not to disrupt relations. But a diplomatic showdown took place when the CIA uncovered evidence that Pakistani intelligence agents had helped to plan the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul.

Ultimately Mr Musharraf’s double game may have left Pakistan more precarious than before. The Taleban are now an internal Pakistani problem, as well as one for Afghanistan, with 56 domestic suicide attacks this year. That was not the legacy that Mr Musharraf sought to emphasise yesterday.

“Where was Pakistan in 1999?” he asked in his speech. “No one knew us, no one spoke to us and no one listened to us. Now we have put Pakistan on the map and people take notice.” True, but perhaps not for the right reasons.

[takeo]

He deserves the same fate as Najibullah of A'stan. that terrorist SOB should be hanged from the nearest lamp post.:mad:

You are saying that the Taliban should hang him as they hanged "the people's hero" Najibullah?

[takeo]

Musharraf was a weak and corrupt leader who did nothing to stop extremism, as his predecessors. Also the 2 parties now ruling Pakistan are extremely corrupted and won't do anything to stop extremism. Pakistan is almost a failed state, and its people are so poor, illiterate and so backwards. This country is an absolute failure in every aspect.

[bararallu]

Wow, it's frightening to agree with the above poster. :unsure:

[farmall]

"Wow, it's frightening to agree with the above poster. "

If we all agree is it a sign of the Apocalypse? :D

[takeo]

In that case I will say something you probably won't like to hear: that Musharraf, as Butto, as Haq were propped up by the US!

[varian]

"Wow, it's frightening to agree with the above poster. "

If we all agree is it a sign of the Apocalypse? :D

:lol:

[Mil]

that Musharraf, as Butto, as Haq were propped up by the US

You are wrong!!! It was the ZIONISTS and their evil side-kicks - the Georgians!!!

[takeo]

that Musharraf, as Butto, as Haq were propped up by the US

You are wrong!!! It was the ZIONISTS and their evil side-kicks - the Georgians!!!

haha. No, it were really and only the Americans.
I even think that Israel is not so happy about it.

[Mediocrates]

The list of failed states is rather long. Most of Africa for example; where France, China and Iran have a big presence. North Korea is another. Russia itself practically imploded into failed statehood. It's only now when they aren't too weak to anything that they do what Russians always do: invade someone.

[farmall]

"In that case I will say something you probably won't like to hear: that Musharraf, as Butto, as Haq were propped up by the US!"

That bothers me not a bit.

Once we accept that there are no people who combine "goodness" and power in certain areas, then all that's left is to attempt to exploit them. Of course Pak leadership reflects Pak culture, but their help was useful during the Cold War. It is no longer useful, and it would be better if the place implodes.

I don't concern myself with the pursuit of virtuous people in Muslim countries, because from my POV they don't exist. Mere clients are all we'll ever get from such cultural enemies, and that is easy enough to understand. We need people to use against other people, just as our enemies do. It is part of competition and war.

[takeo]

The list of failed states is rather long. Most of Africa for example; where France, China and Iran have a big presence. North Korea is another. Russia itself practically imploded into failed statehood. It's only now when they aren't too weak to anything that they do what Russians always do: invade someone.

No! Invading someone is the American speciality, they are the gold medal.
Of course the French, Iranian and Chinese did it. Anglosaxon African countries are all examplary. (such as Nigeria, Kenya, Zambia, Sierra Leone, Liberia, etc.) By the way talking about Africa Chinese investments (which makes the US and Europe very anxious) is one of the reasons Africa is for the first time since decades progressing. Roads are being build factories etc. instead of Europeans and American moralising and doing nothing except protecting their interests and their preferate regimes.

[takeo]

"In that case I will say something you probably won't like to hear: that Musharraf, as Butto, as Haq were propped up by the US!"

That bothers me not a bit.

Once we accept that there are no people who combine "goodness" and power in certain areas, then all that's left is to attempt to exploit them. Of course Pak leadership reflects Pak culture, but their help was useful during the Cold War. It is no longer useful, and it would be better if the place implodes.

I don't concern myself with the pursuit of virtuous people in Muslim countries, because from my POV they don't exist. Mere clients are all we'll ever get from such cultural enemies, and that is easy enough to understand. We need people to use against other people, just as our enemies do. It is part of competition and war.

thanks for your honest point of view. That's indeed the only purpose of US-policy. (but still they like to moralise others)

[ShimonG]

You are saying that the Taliban should hang him as they hanged "the people's hero" Najibullah?

Yup. The taliban, al qaeda, the pakistani army, its intelligence agencies are all different section of the same Jihadi outfit. Immensely supported by generous contributions to jihad by pakistani moslems during ramadan and other islamic holidays, and donations from the sauds. bhutto was part of this same facade. they are all UNITED against the infidel but keep snapping at each other. The more the slaughter each other, the less the cost to the infidels.

[takeo]

Yup. The taliban, al qaeda, the pakistani army, its intelligence agencies are all different section of the same Jihadi outfit. Immensely supported by generous contributions to jihad by pakistani moslems during ramadan and other islamic holidays, and donations from the sauds. bhutto was part of this same facade. they are all UNITED against the infidel but keep snapping at each other. The more the slaughter each other, the less the cost to the infidels.

That's right. Najibullah tried to stop them unfortunately the US had anotherr opinion on that.

[ShimonG]

That's right. Najibullah tried to stop them unfortunately the US had anotherr opinion on that.

I dont think the US had intervened in any meaningful way when najibullah was hanged. Lets get over the knee-jerk reflex of blaming everything on the US.

[takeo]

I dont think the US had intervened in any meaningful way when najibullah was hanged. Lets get over the knee-jerk reflex of blaming everything on the US.

But the Us had everything to do with his ouster.

[Mil]

It was France... they had this thing for building nuclear reactors for some pretty horrible dictators and also sell weapons to the same dictators (the main Western country to do so.)

[Mediocrates]

No! Invading someone is the American speciality, they are the gold medal.
Of course the French, Iranian and Chinese did it. Anglosaxon African countries are all examplary. (such as Nigeria, Kenya, Zambia, Sierra Leone, Liberia, etc.) By the way talking about Africa Chinese investments (which makes the US and Europe very anxious) is one of the reasons Africa is for the first time since decades progressing. Roads are being build factories etc. instead of Europeans and American moralising and doing nothing except protecting their interests and their preferate regimes.

Chinese investments in Sudan are funding genocide.
French investments in the CAR are funding genocide.
French investments in Congo are funding genocide.

You see unlike your mythical hobos, I've lived in Africa. I have family there. I go there.

[takeo]

It was France... they had this thing for building nuclear reactors for some pretty horrible dictators and also sell weapons to the same dictators (the main Western country to do so.)

You mean they gave nukes to Israel right?
But what has this to do with afghanistan or Pakistan? And do you deny that the US propped up different Pakistani dictators as well as the islamists in Afghanistan during the 80's with lots of weapons, logistical support and money?

[takeo]

Chinese investments in Sudan are funding genocide.
French investments in the CAR are funding genocide.
French investments in Congo are funding genocide.

You see unlike your mythical hobos, I've lived in Africa. I have family there. I go there.

I went many times to Kenya. The US-supported regime of Kibaki killed many people just recently in february. He's still in power after falsifying the elections. His regime absolutely left the country decaying. Roads are extremely bad, corruption is extremely bad, etc.
I also went to Ethiopia, the only roads being build there (the only economic activity whatsoever other than small-scale agriculture and Qat-bazars) are Chinese roads and factories. The Ethiopian government is guilty of genocide in Somalia and Ogaden. But China is not modernising the Ethiopian army as the US does, China is investing in the economy, despite the tyrannic regime.
The US supported Ruanda and Uganda government which committed genocide in Eastern Congo which according to the UN caused millions of casualties.
Without investments Africa is starving. Africa needs investments whatever the regime. Africa needs economic devellopment: roads, factories, industrialisation, infrastructure. They don't need any moralising from Europe or the US, nor do they need US to prop up certain genocidal governments and armies.
It's always the same: Americans accuse China and other countries of things they are committing themselves (propping up genocidal governments)

[takeo]

It's really so funny that Americans refuse to aknowledge any mistake or crime their government committed, such as propping up Islamists in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, financing genocidal regimes (Ethiopia) etc. In the meanwhile they prefere to moralise and accuse others... (Russia, China, etc.)

[Mediocrates]

Well lets exterminate all white people, Jews and Americans for a global epoch of world peace and unicorns then. You might even win a free lifetime subscription to Salon, DailyKOS, and Counterpunch.

[takeo]

Well lets exterminate all white people, Jews and Americans for a global epoch of world peace and unicorns then. You might even win a free lifetime subscription to Salon, DailyKOS, and Counterpunch.

What is your focus with white people? Are you KKK?

[Zohar Yeshayahu]

What is your focus with white people? Are you KKK?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU1H6DwV644

[takeo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU1H6DwV644

oh poor medio... sniff... he can't join...

[Mediocrates]

They're your genocidal Russians and Iranians, not mine. Between the two of them they've slaughtered millions. Pity for you though they weren't ALL the Jews. Well, maybe someday.

[bararallu]

The hard collectivist left, which includes Fascists and Communists, has killed more people than any other ideology/religion in history.

[Kenneth]

110 million I believe the figure is. Chairman Mao has restaurants named after him here in the west and Ché's mug adores many a teenagers t-shirt.

My General Pinochet t-shirt run remains in storage.

[varian]

110 million I believe the figure is. Chairman Mao has restaurants named after him here in the west and Ché's mug adores many a teenagers t-shirt.

My General Pinochet t-shirt run remains in storage.

Anti-Che shirts.

http://www.che-mart.com/store.php

[Mil]

I went many times to Kenya. The US-supported regime of Kibaki killed many people just recently in february. He's still in power after falsifying the elections. His regime absolutely left the country decaying. Roads are extremely bad, corruption is extremely bad, etc.
I also went to Ethiopia, the only roads being build there (the only economic activity whatsoever other than small-scale agriculture and Qat-bazars) are Chinese roads and factories. The Ethiopian government is guilty of genocide in Somalia and Ogaden. But China is not modernising the Ethiopian army as the US does, China is investing in the economy, despite the tyrannic regime.
The US supported Ruanda and Uganda government which committed genocide in Eastern Congo which according to the UN caused millions of casualties.
Without investments Africa is starving. Africa needs investments whatever the regime. Africa needs economic devellopment: roads, factories, industrialisation, infrastructure. They don't need any moralising from Europe or the US, nor do they need US to prop up certain genocidal governments and armies.
It's always the same: Americans accuse China and other countries of things they are committing themselves (propping up genocidal governments)


:)

[Mil]

By Takeo:

You mean they gave nukes to Israel right?

Gave? No - it was not given anything.

But what has this to do with afghanistan or Pakistan?

I was talking about your friend Saddamchik.

And do you deny that the US propped up different Pakistani dictators as well as the islamists in Afghanistan during the 80's with lots of weapons, logistical support and money?

:) Not really. A lot less then what France sold to Mr. Hussein to kill all those Shias, Iranians and Kurds in the 80s.

[Steven]

Attacks on Kurds is genocide: Dutch court

By Stephanie van den Berg in The Hague | Friday, 23 December , 2005, 23:10



A Dutch court on Friday sentenced former chemicals trader Frans van Anraat to 15 years in jail for aiding war crimes by selling chemicals the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein used for deadly gas attacks on Kurdish villages.



Earlier, the court said that although it felt it was proven that the former Iraqi ruler committed genocide against Kurds in the 1980s, Van Anraat was acquitted of charges of complicity in genocide.

The court said it could not be proven that he knew of the Iraqi regime's genocidal intentions.

"The attacks caused the deaths of many people and caused much suffering among the survivors," the court said in its ruling.

"The crimes are of such a grave nature that even the maximum sentence cannot do them justice," the judges said before sentencing the Dutchman to the maximum of 15 years in prison.

Under international law, genocide carries a special burden of proof, namely that a suspect had a specific intent or knew of a specific intent to commit genocide, in order to come to a conviction.

For war crimes the burden of proof is less, which explains why Van Anraat was convicted on war crimes charges based on the same evidence.

The Dutch ruling marks the first time a court has ruled that Saddam committed genocide in Iraq with the 1988 massacre of Kurds in the town of Halabja.

The attack, which killed more than 5,000 people in a single day, also features among the preliminary charges against the former Iraqi ruler who is currently on trial in Baghdad.

The Dutch court said Iraq carried out a "genocidal campaign" against the Kurds from 1984 to 1988.

"The court believes that it is a well-known fact that Saddam Hussein wielded absolute power in Iraq in that period and as such was directly involved in the attacks and the campaign against the Kurdish population," the judges said.

The court said Van Anraat, 63, who acted as a middleman buying chemicals on the world market and selling them to Iraq despite export bans in the 1980s, acted "out of the love of profit".

The court said it was legally established that the businessman supplied chemicals including thiodiglycol and phosphorus oxychloride, both ingredients for mustard and nerve gases, to Iraq between 1985 and 1988.

Iraq then used the ingredients Van Anraat sold to make nerve gas used in deadly attacks on Kurdish villages in Iraq and Iran.

The judges said Van Anraat "must have known" that the chemicals he provided could be used to make poison gas. During the court case, the businessman admitted selling the chemical components to Iraq, but always maintained he was not aware of their eventual purpose.

Van Anraat, who is in detention, declined to come to court for the verdict but his lawyers told ANP news agency that they would appeal the ruling.

The former chemicals trader was first arrested in Italy in 1989 on a United States warrant but later fled to Iraq where he lived for 14 years under a new name given to him by the Iraqi regime, Faris Mansour Rasheed al Bazzaz, meaning "the courageous and intelligent fabric salesman".

He remained in Iraq until US-led forces invaded the country in 2003 and then returned to the Netherlands, Dutch officials said, where he was arrested in December 2004 on charges of complicity in genocide and war crimes. His trial started on November 21.

Despite the Dutch court issuing the first legal ruling on whether the Halabja attacks constituted genocide, observers say it remains uncertain if this might affect the Iraq tribunal trying Saddam and others.

"The Iraq tribunal will have to take into account international law as established by, for instance, UN ad hoc tribunals, but not necessarily Dutch law," explained Heikelina Verrijn Stuart, a Dutch lawyer and commentator who has followed the Van Anraat trial.


http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14056587

[bararallu]

Anti-Che shirts.

http://www.che-mart.com/store.php

I've seen one recently that has Cher as Che, LOL.