Amazing Show on CBS [Archive]

Ezra

09-01-2002, 09:05 PM

Amazing Show on CBS (60 minutes)
Broadcasted at 7pm on Sunday

The show had an extensive report about "Islamic" schools in America. This mainly focused on such a school located in NY. The program started with a description of what are exactly the differences between such schools and normal schools in the US. This included the separation between boys and girls and the obligatory head covering for girls.

The program then moved to discussing the ideologies of the teachers and students of this Islamic school especially when it comes to killing civilians through suicide bombers as in Israel and the WTC. And from here started the interesting part!

The girls answer was VERY interesting and very scary in the same time. One of them said that she praises these suicide bombers and think they are so brave and will certainly go to Paradise since they defend their religion (not their country!). So, the reporter cleverly asked them if they would do the same. One of them immediately answered with the most horrible answer (although expected form my point of view). She said "Yes I would do that and bomb a Naval base". The reporter was shocked and asked "A naval base?". The girl was hesitant and immediately changed her words into "I mean I will bomb any military base, not in the US". Obviously this wasn't she meant the first time.

Now the deceiving begins when the principal of this school claims that the students are taught that suicide bombers are not related to Islam (it was so obvious that he wasn't even convinced with his own words! Probably he was just afraid to be deported!) and that they learn that killing civilians is forbidden for any reason. He was completely silent, however, when the reporter asked him then why do all your student praise killing innocents by suicide bombing in Israel?

Then a very apparent deceiving from the Islamic community continued when the reporter said that these students (who appeared earlier) met with the principal and they wanted to change their words (or replace their first interview which the reporter refused to do). In the "modified" interview, they said that they are not convinced with suicide bombing and it was forbidden by Islam (which is completely opposite to their first praising!). Very obviously, that their new words were simply based on some orders from the Islamic lobby in the US for the purpose of deceiving.

This program raises two very important (from my point of view) questions:

1) The deceiving of the Islamic groups in the US by showing their fake sympathy with innocent and their fake condemn to killing civilians, whereas the true is that they teach their students and kids that suicide bombers are now in Heaven and killing non-Muslim civilians are Halal.

2) This program points to a very serious issue about how loyal are the American Muslims to America?

Teacake

09-01-2002, 11:52 PM

The segment after that one was an interview with one of those saudi princes... the one who offered mayor Guilanni $10 million. The prince said, it is important for Americans to understand the root of the problem... Israel and Jews. ((( NOT the house of saud))))

Anyhow, he was going on about how saudi citizens were very happy, how their society is so stable. The interviewer asked about how he would know this... that they are happy... because the people tell him so. The question came up about what if citizens protested. The prince said that demonstrations were not allowed (to put it mildly with a smile). That demonstrations are not allowed in the arab world... but peopleare so happy and have no complaints.

That led me to think... no wonder they are encouraged to vent all their frustrations at Jews.... and are encouraged to do all their protesting in Israel.

IT was a very revealing interview. His palace looked like a gigantic oppulant shopping mall. Of course the prince and other princes are happy... who the hell in the entire world lives like they do? Just think if Israel had that sort of money... then Israel could buy some really good PR on 60 MIN too!

Ezra

09-01-2002, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Teacake
The segment after that one was an interview with one of those saudi princes... the one who offered mayor Guilanni $10 million. The prince said, it is important for Americans to understand the root of the problem... Israel and Jews. ((( NOT the house of saud))))

Anyhow, he was going on about how saudi citizens were very happy, how their society is so stable. The interviewer asked about how he would know this... that they are happy... because the people tell him so. The question came up about what if citizens protested. The prince said that demonstrations were not allowed (to put it mildly with a smile). That demonstrations are not allowed in the arab world... but peopleare so happy and have no complaints.

That led me to think... no wonder they are encouraged to vent all their frustrations at Jews.... and are encouraged to do all their protesting in Israel.

IT was a very revealing interview. His palace looked like a gigantic oppulant shopping mall. Of course the prince and other princes are happy... who the hell in the entire world lives like they do? Just think if Israel had that sort of money... then Israel could buy some really good PR on 60 MIN too!

Yessssssssssssssssss! Did you see that ???

I kept laughing for over 10 minutes on the part about the happiness of the Saudi people! Can't see how you can be happy while kissing the hand of someone to give you some extra money to live with!

I loved it when he was asked "How can you know they are happy, when people can't express or show their sadness"!

Mediocrates

09-02-2002, 06:57 AM

Is anyone besides me familiar with the term "Potemkin Village"?

Ezra

09-02-2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Is anyone besides me familiar with the term "Potemkin Village"?

What is that?

Mediocrates

09-03-2002, 04:24 AM

A fake village thrown together for the benefit of the media. It comes from the early years of the 3CP where the Communists would throw up a perfect little workers' paradise and march the western media through it to demonstrate the perfection of scientific socialism. A Disney prop as it were.

I suspect that what we are seeing in this show is a carefully orchestrated stage performance. It's sheer vagueness leads me to this conclusion. For example there are no real naval bases in NYC or for that matter anywhere else in the New York state. This seems extremely odd. Typically the point to 'gaffs' like this is to inject some fake reality and distract from the overall fakeness and rehearsed nature of the whole show.

Teacake

09-03-2002, 06:54 AM

Finding past articles is like looking for a needle in a haystack, your comments Mediocrates reminded me that just last week there was an article about the saudi's PR techniques in the US, that they have hired several PR firms to help them "show America" that they are really our friends and that their cause is just wonderful and that we should just roll over, believe them, accept what the hired spin doctors say about them, etc.

Sure, some dumbasses will believe the spin, only because they want to, but I think that most Americans see though these transparant attempts at white washing, propraganda, and will NEVER believe anything the saudis have to say about being as wonderful as they believe they are.

Guess when your used to being in the position of having supreme control and say over a nation, its hard for those princes to imagine that people outside saudi arabia or islam aren't easily swayed.

Ezra

09-04-2002, 08:44 PM

I think you have gone far into conspiracy theory with this opinion.

1) I know that there isn't any Naval base in NY, but for example, I live in Pennsylvania and consider the Naval base(s) in Virginia a symbol for the superior military force for the country. And whenever I want to refer to any military symbol, I refer to Virginia Naval Base.

2) There is an organization called Council of American Islamic Relation that searches for anything that shows the world how Muslims suffer in America, and all this crab. Believe me, if this was like what you said, the whole world would have known that this was a part of "play". However, no one in the Islamic communities ever commented, denied, or even condemned these interviews.

3) If you understand Islamic Ideology, you wouldn't have been surprised of what you heard. Actually, if these people said that they condemn killing civilian.. and bla bla, I would have been very certain that this is a paid commercial by the Saudi government.

christian

09-04-2002, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Ezra

Yessssssssssssssssss! Did you see that ???

I kept laughing for over 10 minutes on the part about the happiness of the Saudi people! Can't see how you can be happy while kissing the hand of someone to give you some extra money to live with!

I loved it when he was asked "How can you know they are happy, when people can't express or show their sadness"!

Ha ha this is so funny. Thanks for the laugh.

christian

09-04-2002, 10:39 PM

Jeremie

09-05-2002, 03:06 AM

Why can't we just LISTEN what most of the muslims shout all around the globe ? They hate us and they will to destroy Israel, US and the occidental culture.

Teacake

09-05-2002, 06:43 AM

Days following 9-11 the leaders of the arab world reacted like lighting speed to circle the coral (prez Bush) and offer "friendship" and help to fight terrorism.

I think that Jews were the only people to see what a phony baloney sham that was... as it was obvious it was done not out of friendship but done in a hostage sort of way.... sabers hidden from the scene poking Bush in the back. and also to be inside the loop to see what America had planned, and to foil it at every turn.

Now I hear in the news the arab world is united in preventing America from going after Iraq... as if the arab world ever united in friendship along side of us.... which I have found out all year it was an effective ploy as most non-Jews were unable to look below the surface, or do any research which is available in spades, and believe the arab/muslims at their word.

I sent out many website addresses s to non-Jews during those first few months so they would have somewhere to start in research and I was met with hostility, as if I was trying to smear the arab world... by offering arab websites that revealed what the arabs were up to.

Anyhow, after Viet Nam I was surprised when Americans rallied together during the big media event of "Desert Storm" and now I am shocked and dismayed that Americans have done a 180 turnabout when this time WE are in actual huge danger. Why Americans refuse to see that the arab world has the same goal as nazi germany, and why Americans poopoo this, and why Americans refuse to look at reality, that WE are in grave danger, is something I just don;'t understand at all.

Is it because the faces are not white this time? That people of color are automatically assumed to be vicitms of the white man?

I hear people say now and then... too bad we couldn't turn back time and do something to prevent hitlers regime... well, here we have something so much more dangerous than nazis and for the most part, it is only Jews who can see what perile people of the world are in.

That over 50% of the UN memeber seats are held by muslims seems not to concern many people who seem to view the UN as an authentic organization interested in peace. I believe it is in the interest of the UN and all of the arab muslim world to keep the rest of us hostage and not do anything to decrease the dangers of today.

Ezra

09-05-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Jeremie
Why can't we just LISTEN what most of the muslims shout all around the globe ? They hate us and they will to destroy Israel, US and the occidental culture.

Because we are stupid and enjoy the role of the naive person who loves everyone, believe everyone, and can't believe that there is evil in this world! … And certainly, because of their amazing way of deceiving which they became professional in!

Jeremie

09-05-2002, 09:47 PM

Well, I don't believe the world is so naive.
Should I remind you that Danemark, Sweden, or even France are officialy acting against Israel and make as much as problems they can to disturb the american policy against terrorism. Don't they have the minimum means to SEE what the arabs are not even hiding ?
Having one eye or one ear should be enough.

Ezra

09-06-2002, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by Jeremie
Well, I don't believe the world is so naive.
Should I remind you that Danemark, Sweden, or even France are officialy acting against Israel and make as much as problems they can to disturb the american policy against terrorism. Don't they have the minimum means to SEE what the arabs are not even hiding ?
Having one eye or one ear should be enough.

I was mainly refering to the ordinary people rather than the governments.

Mediocrates

09-06-2002, 04:55 AM

I welcome and invite all of those countries to throw open their doors and invite as many radical fundy Islamists in as can fit. I would like nothing better than for Islamic issues to become their problems.

Jeremie

09-07-2002, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Ezra

I was mainly refering to the ordinary people rather than the governments.

I started to believe that there is no "ordinary people". They are just people, that's Israeli faith not to be understood.

DeadSquirrel

10-09-2002, 05:13 AM

Is there any way I can get hold of this program? I would really be interested to see it for myself.

Thanks,
DeadS

Teacake

10-09-2002, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by DeadSquirrel
Is there any way I can get hold of this program? I would really be interested to see it for myself.

Thanks,
DeadS

You would have to have a look around their website and see if they have tapes, or at least transcripts, for sell.

I assume its www.cbs.com

DeadSquirrel

10-09-2002, 06:21 AM

Thanks, im having a look as we speak.

DeadSquirrel

10-09-2002, 06:33 AM

"Young, American and Muslim" aired on 09/01/02 (60 minutes)

Is this the one?

Thanks,
DeadS

DeadSquirrel

10-09-2002, 06:35 AM

Damn.... They wont deliver to the UK. :(

anyone happened to record it? im more then willing to pay to see this.

Teacake

10-09-2002, 04:48 PM

I think CBS had 2 stories about islam that night and that was one of them I think, the other story was an interview with one of those stinkin saudi princes.

What about this idea... you can use a credit card I assume. Do you have any friends here in the States who could recieve it and then ship it to you? I didn't know they shipped domestic only.

I don't have a VCR and I don't know anyone who taped it, sorry.

jcsd

10-09-2002, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
A fake village thrown together for the benefit of the media. It comes from the early years of the 3CP where the Communists would throw up a perfect little workers' paradise and march the western media through it to demonstrate the perfection of scientific socialism. A Disney prop as it were.

I suspect that what we are seeing in this show is a carefully orchestrated stage performance. It's sheer vagueness leads me to this conclusion. For example there are no real naval bases in NYC or for that matter anywhere else in the New York state. This seems extremely odd. Typically the point to 'gaffs' like this is to inject some fake reality and distract from the overall fakeness and rehearsed nature of the whole show.

Actually, the term Potemkin village comes from the reign of Catherine the Great. Catherine the Great took a boat trip to review her empire, which was adminstrated by general Potemkin at the time. In order to paint the picture all was well, Potemkin arranged for a portable village with fake peasants to be set up along the river so they could act out a rural idle as soon Catherine the Great's boat appeared. When she disappeared round the next river bend they would dismantle the village and hurry to the next location and wait for Catherine to go through the whole charade again.

DeadSquirrel

10-09-2002, 11:58 PM

What about this idea... you can use a credit card I assume. Do you have any friends here in the States who could recieve it and then ship it to you?
Dont really know anyone in the US. But im planning on travelling to New York at around January so i will see if they will deliver to my Hotel.

IlyaFurman

10-10-2002, 10:21 AM

Ezra, you come off to me as being a person filled with hate, and you think your all knowing, Im jewish living in Florida, USA, I moved here from Russia about 7 years ago, you spread hate, and that is not a good solution, in Russia I have had Muslim and Christian friends who treated me like i was their brother, and coincedintally, my best friend in Florida is a Muslim brother from India, sure we dont agree on many things, we have arguments about religions, he belives his is the correct one, i belive mine is the correct one, but we still are best of friends, his parents treat me like one of them,

you need to differnate between moderates and extremists, cause your doing what hilter did in germany, deeming all jews "evil" and "extremist" we dont need that.

So please grow up

Ezra

10-11-2002, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Ezra, you come off to me as being a person filled with hate, and you think your all knowing, Im jewish living in Florida, USA, I moved here from Russia about 7 years ago, you spread hate, and that is not a good solution, in Russia I have had Muslim and Christian friends who treated me like i was their brother, and coincedintally, my best friend in Florida is a Muslim brother from India, sure we dont agree on many things, we have arguments about religions, he belives his is the correct one, i belive mine is the correct one, but we still are best of friends, his parents treat me like one of them,

you need to differnate between moderates and extremists, cause your doing what hilter did in germany, deeming all jews "evil" and "extremist" we dont need that.

So please grow up

IlyaFurman,

Thanks for your message, although I'm not sure why the hostility!

As I said before I don't hate Muslims, but I hate Islam. All I'm doing to reveal some aspects of Islam that Muslims try to hide. In doing so, I don't use any kind of personal opinions (which might be affected by any motivation). I only use authenticated Islamic resources.

I don't intend to influence people by pushing them to hate Islam. We are all intellectually mature enough to judge. All what I do is to present the facts which is hidden by Muslims.

From my point of view, these hidden facts show clearly that any real Muslim is a potential suicide bomber if he was forced to follow his religion exactly.

When a Muslim treats you nice, I can claim that he is not following his religion. A very simple example, is that I can prove for you from Islamic resources that Muslim is not allowed to greet non-Muslim! You might say that this is called "extremists"; the answer is No! Most of these teaches come from either the Koran of el Hadtih (Muhammad's sayings) that has to be followed no matter what you are; an extremists or moderate.

Again, it's not a matter of someone nice or someone bad, it's a matter of religious teachings. I don't discuss Muslim behavior here (which corresponds to your example of the nice Muslims). I don't care about that. I only care and discuss Islamic teaching.

IlyaFurman

10-11-2002, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Ezra

IlyaFurman,

Thanks for your message, although I'm not sure why the hostility!

theres not alot of hostility, but I see you quote things wrong, My profession is the study of religions I work for the Jewish Heritage Fund in Florida, so I need to learn religions I studied Islam and Christianity, along with my birth religion Judaism, I studied the torah the talmud, all the testaments and the koran, out of all these relgions I honestly think that they are all equally intolerant of other religions, I want you to show me quotes from judaism or islam that you want me to prove or show you where its coming from, i bet its those kill them where ever you find them quote, that is a war passage, the difference between the islamic books and judea and christian books is that the islamic book has a code for how to proceed in war and how to act in war and people like you think its for all people, which is spreading lies,

IlyaFurman

10-11-2002, 12:40 PM

i personally dont like what the arab muslims are doin to my israelie brothes in Israel

but they are no better than the Christians back in the early 1900's, OUR PEOPLE FORGET what had happend in the holocaust, who was persecuting us, who was using religion as the basics for BURING our people, Did the POPE do anything about this, did most chritians try and stop this action, he kept his mouth shut throught the horror, throught our history we were persecuted christians muslims and others, but the christians have been the harshest PEOPLE FORGET, the crusaders laughed when jewish blood was flowing, they though of us as animals, but the arabs took us in refuge and even let us pray in their mosques and synagues look at king saladin,

So all relgions have been harsh on judaism, now i see a violent trend of neo-nazis and islamic terriosists attacking the jewish people, it has been going on for ever, and it has not only been one group of people, people that were once are friends are know are enimies, and people who were the eniemies before are the friends, things change and we got to evolve around it.

Ezra

10-11-2002, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

theres not alot of hostility, but I see you quote things wrong,

I'll be more than happy if you pointed out ANYTHING I mentioned that is either:

1) Wrong, or
2) Taken out of context.

Thanks!

Ezra

10-11-2002, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

who was using religion as the basics for BURING our people,

Hold on hold on.. Don't just mention anything on the fly like this. This is a very serious phrase and can't be mentioned without a proof.

Again, I'll be very happy if you told us:

1) what were the beliefs of such people,
2) how do you prove that their motivation was religious not political,
3) how was the bible used as a basis for these acts, and
4) how appealing was their beliefs to the people.

Thanks.

IlyaFurman

10-13-2002, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by Ezra

Hold on hold on.. Don't just mention anything on the fly like this. This is a very serious phrase and can't be mentioned without a proof.

Again, I'll be very happy if you told us:

1) what were the beliefs of such people,
2) how do you prove that their motivation was religious not political,
3) how was the bible used as a basis for these acts, and
4) how appealing was their beliefs to the people.

Thanks.

first read the mein kamf by hilter himself I will present a few quotes but you look into it more if you would like, these are justttt a few-

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .

“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.

“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IlyaFurman

10-13-2002, 02:14 AM

“And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. […] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“As far as this variety of ‘folkish’ warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: ‘Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.’”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Thank the Lord, Germanic democracy means just this: that any old climber or moral slacker cannot rise by devious paths to govern his national comrades, but that, by the very greatness of the responsibility to be assumed, incompetents and weaklings are frightened of.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 91. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.”

( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“[T]he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 622. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.”

( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. )

IlyaFurman

10-13-2002, 02:16 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.

“There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.

“The Church's) interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 403. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will—not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )

ONE AGAIN if truly it was political, then why didnt the righetous christian pope that is ALL GOOD come and defend the jews?? did he utter one word??

IlyaFurman

10-13-2002, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Ezra

I'll be more than happy if you pointed out ANYTHING I mentioned that is either:

1) Wrong, or
2) Taken out of context.

Thanks!

I suppose your christian but you need to be learing your religion than attacking others, the christian bible as just as vilolent as others,

Let's see, in CHRISTIANITY God tells his followers to kill people in Jericho, to kill people in the Promised Land, to kill....a lot of people. That's when He isn't drowning them or burning them or turning them into salt himself.

once again these are very few examples i am posting cause I am busy at work, you fail to include the fact that your religion has just as much violence instead of attacking judaism and islam and others look within your religion and question it.

Ezra

10-13-2002, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

I suppose your christian but you need to be learing your religion than attacking others, the christian bible as just as vilolent as others,

Let's see, in CHRISTIANITY God tells his followers to kill people in Jericho, to kill people in the Promised Land, to kill....a lot of people. That's when He isn't drowning them or burning them or turning them into salt himself.

once again these are very few examples i am posting cause I am busy at work, you fail to include the fact that your religion has just as much violence instead of attacking judaism and islam and others look within your religion and question it.

Don't just write crab from your sick mind. We don't buy such idiotic way of presenting ideas here!

MENTION BIBLE QUOTES FOR YOUR WORDS.

If you don't have any, then …… hmmmm…. Shut up!

Ezra

10-13-2002, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

first read the mein kamf by hilter himself I will present a few quotes but you look into it more if you would like, these are justttt a few-

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .

“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.

“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY! NOT A SINGLE QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE!

Ezra

10-13-2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
“And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. […] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“As far as this variety of ‘folkish’ warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: ‘Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.’”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Thank the Lord, Germanic democracy means just this: that any old climber or moral slacker cannot rise by devious paths to govern his national comrades, but that, by the very greatness of the responsibility to be assumed, incompetents and weaklings are frightened of.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 91. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.”

( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“[T]he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 622. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.”

( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. )

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY! NOT A SINGLE QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE!

IlyaFurman

10-13-2002, 01:00 PM

But you dont get the point it seems, Hilter used christianity as a means to persecute the jewish people and to gain fevor against them.

IlyaFurman

10-13-2002, 01:14 PM

PLEASE READ THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF THE BIBLE example PURITIAN and ORTHODOX, not protestant, cause we all know that was changed around, to make it seem all angelic!!!!, this is a few, I wonder what you will say to this!!

i didnt want to post it, but you asked for it.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters- yes, even his own life- he cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:26)

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)"

"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. (Luke 19:26-28)"

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (Revelation 2:22-23)"

"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, 'Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!.' (John 2:15)"

CONTARDICTING STATEMENTS

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43-44)"

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. (Luke 6:35)"

jcsd

10-13-2002, 02:31 PM

Hitler was a lapsed Catholic, you could well of quoted his attacks on the church and in particular the Christian idea of God. The only thing he really believed in was providence.

Most of the other high-ranking Nazis (especially Himmler) and the SS were pagans who based their religion on their ideas about the pre-christian Germanic pagan religion, though there were many high-up Nazis with Christian beliefs. This led to tensions between the SS and the Nazified Protestant 'Reichchurch'. Hitler took neither side reflecting the fact that he saw religion as a means to an end.

Ezra

10-13-2002, 09:45 PM

This is one of the funniest replies I ever read since the days of "Egypt Lover" and this other guy (can't remember his name!)

PLEASE READ THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF THE BIBLE example PURITIAN and ORTHODOX, not protestant, cause we all know that was changed around, to make it seem all angelic!!!!, this is a few, I wonder what you will say to this!!

So weird! I have over 15 versions in 4 languages and I haven't found anything different between them! I even found all your quotes in it!

i didnt want to post it, but you asked for it.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters- yes, even his own life- he cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:26)

Cool! But where is the part about killing your enemies or killing non-Christians?

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)"

Ok.. Another cool! But still where is the order of killing? Whom shall I kill? When? For what? I'm sorry.. Can you explain it more for me? (forgive my ignorance).

"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. (Luke 19:26-28)"

Hmmm.. So who are these guys who did not want Jesus to be king over them? hmmm.. I thought he said that my kingdom in not in this world? And when the Jewish came to make him their king he ran away! So, YES kill those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, but Oooppsss.. I don't want to be king on anyone! So, whom to kill?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (Revelation 2:22-23)"

Nice.. But that's God speaking about the last day? Where is the order for ME as a Christian to kill my enemies? If God says he will do something, what the hell has to do with me? :confused:

"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, 'Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!.' (John 2:15)"

Hmmmm.. Can't understand the relation between this verse and the topic we are discussing! Where is my order to kill anyone? Thanks for quoting it anyway! :confused:

CONTARDICTING STATEMENTS

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43-44)"

Contradicting to what?

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. (Luke 6:35)"

Contradicting to what?

Oh my God! I haven't laugh like this since ages!
I went to Wal-Mart and bought a sward according to your words, but now I couldn't figure out whom to kill from the verses you mentioned! I still have the receipt. I think they allow you 3 months to return merchandize! So, you still have 3 months to mention more verses otherwise I'll have to return the sword!

Ezra

10-13-2002, 09:50 PM

Ahhh.. And in all that, who used these verses to kill non-Christians along the 2002 Christianity history? Remember: This is our main topic as well!

Did Hilter mentioned anything about these verses in his books?

You still haven't mentioned anything about proving that hilter used the bible verses to kill Jews! Can't wait for your reply

IlyaFurman

10-14-2002, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Ezra
Ahhh.. And in all that, who used these verses to kill non-Christians along the 2002 Christianity history? Remember: This is our main topic as well!

Did Hilter mentioned anything about these verses in his books?

You still haven't mentioned anything about proving that hilter used the bible verses to kill Jews! Can't wait for your reply

first of all the bible is a made up book, [B]second even the made up book was changed about 10000000 times by man to suite his needs.

second Hitler used christianity as a means to kill the jewish people? explain to me why your christian pope didnt utter a single word in defense of the jewish people???? [B]not one word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

third doesnt christianity say that all people except the christians are goin to HELL????????????????? isnt that enough proof

lol, people like you amaze me, lol, cant wait for your reply

Ezra

10-14-2002, 08:06 PM

first of all the bible is a made up book, second even the made up book was changed about 10000000 times by man to suite his needs.

Ha?? What's your point? Have you failed to find anything that support your sick point in the Bible, so you now claim it's changed??????
Fine! Get us anything that orders Christians to kill non- Christians in ANY CLAIMED VERSION OF A BIBLE! What else do you want me to do?
GET US ANYTHING, ANYTHING, ANYTHING THAT ASKS CHRISTIANS TO KILL NON-CHRISTIANS! ANYTHING!

second Hitler used christianity as a means to kill the jewish people?

Grrrrr.. Are you playing games? THIS WHOLE GAME WAS FOR YOU TO PROVE THIS PHRASE! WHY ARE YOU REPEATING IT LIKE AN IDIOT?????? QUOTE ANYTHING FROM THE BIBLE THAT HITLER USED! PROVE YOUR POINT! DON'T LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT!

explain to me why your christian pope didnt utter a single word in defense of the jewish people???? [B]not one word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And where was the Pope at this time? Under the gun of Mosolini??? How do you know he didn't say anything? Who would listen to a Pope in these time? Still, if you want to prove that Christianity encouraged these acts GET ME SOMETHING FROM THE BIBLE THAT WAS USED FOR THAT!

third doesnt christianity say that all people except the christians are goin to HELL????????????????? isnt that enough proof

HELL???????? ENOUGH PROOF FOR WHAT???? ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HELL HERE???????? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ORDER IN THE BIBLE FOR CHRISTIANS TO KILL NON-CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol, people like you amaze me, lol, cant wait for your reply

Am I the only one here to think you are sooooooooooooo ignorant or stupid????????????????????

IlyaFurman

10-15-2002, 09:48 AM

im not going to act like a child lol,

but what does the christian bible say about non christians????? are they goin to hell or not??? is mahatma gahdi and rabin going to hell??? answer this?? or change the subject again,

what does your red font or bold prove?? lol that your smart or something?? lol

Originally posted by Ezra
HELL???????? ENOUGH PROOF FOR WHAT???? ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HELL HERE???????? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ORDER IN THE BIBLE FOR CHRISTIANS TO KILL NON-CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry but doesnt the title of your post say "amazing show on cbs" so arent we both off subject?? lol

ibrodsky

10-15-2002, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

first of all the bible is a made up book, [B]second even the made up book was changed about 10000000 times by man to suite his needs.

second Hitler used christianity as a means to kill the jewish people? explain to me why your christian pope didnt utter a single word in defense of the jewish people???? [B]not one word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

third doesnt christianity say that all people except the christians are goin to HELL????????????????? isnt that enough proof

lol, people like you amaze me, lol, cant wait for your reply

Hitler did not use Christianity to justify genocide against the Jews. The Pope was silent, but he was just one man, and not all Christians recognize the Pope as their leader. There are Christians who say all non-Christians will end in Hell, just as there are Jews who despise all Christians.

There are also educated Christians who are fervent supporters of pluralistic democracy, Christians who support separation of church and state, and Christians who support Israel (some support Israel more unreservedly than many Jews).

IlyaFurman

10-15-2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Hitler did not use Christianity to justify genocide against the Jews.

I agree with your post, and he didnt use christianity to JUSTIFY the killing of innocent jewish people, BUT he did use christianity to gain fevor from the christian population and gain support.

Ezra

10-16-2002, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

I agree with your post, and he didnt use christianity to JUSTIFY the killing of innocent jewish people, BUT he did use christianity to gain fevor from the christian population and gain support.

Now you are changing your words! Good for you!

Ezra

10-16-2002, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
im not going to act like a child lol,

but what does the christian bible say about non christians????? are they goin to hell or not??? is mahatma gahdi and rabin going to hell??? answer this?? or change the subject again,

what does your red font or bold prove?? lol that your smart or something?? lol

sorry but doesnt the title of your post say "amazing show on cbs" so arent we both off subject?? lol

Yes, they won't go to heaven that's why we were asked to pray for them a lot, not to kill them.

You claimed that we are ordered to kill them, and we are ALL waiting for the bible quotes to support your words. Will you do that?

IlyaFurman

10-16-2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Ezra
You claimed that we are ordered to kill them, and we are ALL waiting for the bible quotes to support your words. Will you do that?

your making stuff up, I never clamied that.

Ezra

10-17-2002, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

your making stuff up, I never clamied that.

So what does this message means:

who was using religion as the basics for BURING our people,

IlyaFurman

10-17-2002, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Ezra

So what does this message means:

HILTER DID,

your goning to say show passages from the bible!!! but, answer the below question before you do that!!

without changing subject, Did Osama Bin Laden Use Quranic Verses In Justifying His Terriorism????

Ezra

10-18-2002, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

HILTER DID,

your goning to say show passages from the bible!!! but, answer the below question before you do that!!

without changing subject, Did Osama Bin Laden Use Quranic Verses In Justifying His Terriorism????

OF COURSE YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! IN ALMOST EVERY TALK WAS BROADCASTED AFTER SEP 11. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ARABIC, THEY WERE VERY CLEARLY TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH. WANT THE SCRIPTS??????????? GO TO CNN.COM!

NOW IT'S YOUR TURN TO REPLY TO MY QUESTION: SHOW BE A SINGLE BIBLICAL VERSE MENTIONED IN HITLER WRITINGS.

IlyaFurman

10-19-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Ezra

[B][COLOR=firebrick]OF COURSE YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! IN ALMOST EVERY TALK WAS BROADCASTED AFTER SEP 11. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ARABIC, THEY WERE VERY CLEARLY TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH. WANT THE SCRIPTS??????????? GO TO CNN.COM!

Thats shows how ignorant you are, Osama denied commiting the acts even though it was obviiously him, so how could he use Quranic Verses, show me one instance where he had Quranic Verses TO JUSTIFY the attacks?? you wont cause you wont be able to find one.

people use religion to gain more people for their cause

jcsd

10-19-2002, 02:59 PM

The distinction between Hitler and Bin Laden (apart from the obvious) is that Hitler sometimes played with religious ideas to get what he wanted but did not actually believe in them, whereas Osma Bin Laden truly believes what he is doing is the work of G-d.

IlyaFurman

10-19-2002, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by jcsd
The distinction between Hitler and Bin Laden (apart from the obvious) is that Hitler sometimes played with religious ideas to get what he wanted but did not actually believe in them, whereas Osma Bin Laden truly believes what he is doing is the work of G-d.

That is what Im trying to say, but do you belive that all muslims have the same beliefs as Osama Bin Laden?

Ezra

10-19-2002, 09:45 PM

Ezra

10-19-2002, 09:46 PM

Ezra

10-19-2002, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

Thats shows how ignorant you are, Osama denied commiting the acts even though it was obviiously him, so how could he use Quranic Verses, show me one instance where he had Quranic Verses TO JUSTIFY the attacks?? you wont cause you wont be able to find one.

people use religion to gain more people for their cause

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."
This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"
We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.
Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."
Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

Ezra

10-19-2002, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by IlyaFurman

Thats shows how ignorant you are, Osama denied commiting the acts even though it was obviiously him, so how could he use Quranic Verses, show me one instance where he had Quranic Verses TO JUSTIFY the attacks?? you wont cause you wont be able to find one.

people use religion to gain more people for their cause

P.S. This video has been seen by everyone in the whole world except, obviously, you!

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/05/binladen.transcript/index.html

CNN) -- The following interview between Al-Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alouni and Osama Bin Laden took place in October 2001. The following transcript of the interview, which was done in Arabic, is by a translator hired by CNN.
TAYSEER ALOUNI: Dear viewers, welcome to this much-anticipated interview with the leader of the al Qaeda organization, Sheikh Osama Bin Laden.
Sheikh, the question that's on the mind of many people around the world: America claims that it has convincing evidence of your collusion in the events in New York and Washington. What's your answer?
OSAMA BIN LADEN: America has made many accusations against us and many other Muslims around the world. Its charge that we are carrying out acts of terrorism is an unwarranted description.
We never heard in our lives a court decision to convict someone based on a "secret" proof it has. The logical thing to do is to present a proof to a court of law. What many leaders have said so far is that America has an indication only, and not a tangible proof. They describe those brave guys who took the battle to the heart of America and destroyed its most famous economic and military landmarks.
They did this, as we understand it, and this is something we have agitated for before, as a matter of self-defense, in defense of our brothers and sons in Palestine, and to liberate our sacred religious sites/things. If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists.
Q: Sheikh, those who follow your statements and speeches may link your threats to what happened in America. To quote one of your latest statements: "I swear that America won't enjoy security before we live it for real in Palestine." It is easy for anyone following developments to link the acts to your threats.
BIN LADEN: It is easy to link them.
We have agitated for this for years and we have issued statements and fatwas to that effect. This appeared in the investigations into the four young men who destroyed the American center in Ulayya in Riyadh, as disclosed and published by the Saudi government. The [Saudis] reported that they were influenced by some of the fatwas and statements that we issued. Also, apart from that, incitement continues in many meetings and has been published in the media. If they mean, or if you mean, that there is a link as a result of our incitement, then it is true. We incite because incitement is our [unintelligible] today. God assigned incitement to the best of all mankind, Mohammed, who said, "Fight for the sake of God. Assign this to no one but yourself, and incite the faithful."
[Bin Laden recites verses from the Quran.]
This is a true response. We have incited battle against Americans and Jews. This is true.
Q: Al Qaeda is facing now a country that leads the world militarily, politically, technologically. Surely, the al Qaeda organization does not have the economic means that the United States has. How can al Qaeda defeat America militarily?
BIN LADEN: This battle is not between al Qaeda and the U.S. This is a battle of Muslims against the global crusaders. In the past when al Qaeda fought with the mujahedeen, we were told, "Wow, can you defeat the Soviet Union?" The Soviet Union scared the whole world then. NATO used to tremble of fear of the Soviet Union. Where is that power now? We barely remember it. It broke down into many small states and Russia remained.
God, who provided us with his support and kept us steadfast until the Soviet Union was defeated, is able to provide us once more with his support to defeat America on the same land and with the same people. We believe that the defeat of America is possible, with the help of God, and is even easier for us, God permitting, than the defeat of the Soviet Union was before.
Q: How can you explain that?
BIN LADEN: We experienced the Americans through our brothers who went into combat against them in Somalia, for example. We found they had no power worthy of mention. There was a huge aura over America -- the United States -- that terrified people even before they entered combat. Our brothers who were here in Afghanistan tested them, and together with some of the mujahedeen in Somalia, God granted them victory. America exited dragging its tails in failure, defeat, and ruin, caring for nothing.
America left faster than anyone expected. It forgot all that tremendous media fanfare about the new world order, that it is the master of that order, and that it does whatever it wants. It forgot all of these propositions, gathered up its army, and withdrew in defeat, thanks be to God. We experienced combat against the Russians for 10 years, from 1979 to 1989, thanks be to God. Then we continued against the communists in Afghanistan. Today, we're at the end of our second week. There is no comparison between the two battles, between this group and that. We pray to God to give us his support and to make America ever more reluctant. God is capable of that.
Q: You said you want to defeat America on this land. Don't you think that the presence of al Qaeda on Afghanistan soil is costing the Afghan people a high price?
BIN LADEN: This is a partial point of view. When we came to Afghanistan to support the mujahedeen in 1979, against the Russians, the Saudi government asked me officially not to enter Afghanistan due to how close my family is to the Saudi leadership. They ordered me to stay in Peshawar, because in the event the Russians arrested me that will be a proof of our support of the mujahedeen against the Soviet Union. At that time, the whole world was scared of the Soviet Union. I didn't obey their order. They thought my entry into Afghanistan was damning to them. I didn't listen to them and I went into Afghanistan for the first time.
We sacrificed a lot in order to keep the Muslim faith alive and save the children. This is a duty for every Muslim, in general, not the Afghans especially. If I run to the rescue of my brothers in Palestine, it doesn't mean it's Osama's duty alone. This is a duty of all Muslims. The jihad is a duty for everyone, not just for the Afghans. The Afghans are suffering, that's true, but this is their Islamic duty. As far as the bombing of Afghanistan, this is not a personal vendetta. America didn't take my money or hurt me in any way. The bombing is a direct effect of our inciting against the Jews and the Americans.
America is against the establishment of any Islamic government. The prophet has said, "They will be target because of their religion." Not because Osama bin Laden is there. When I came here the first time it was because of a desire to revive the Muslim spirit and an attempt at rescuing the children and the powerless. The British attacked Afghanistan before Osama bin Laden was here, Russians came here before me and now the Americans. We pray that god will defeat them just like he did their allies before them. We ask God to give us the power to defeat them as we did others before.
Q: Let's get back to what happened in New York and Washington. What is your assessment of the attacks on America? What's their effect on America and the Muslim world?
BIN LADEN: The events of Tuesday, September the 11th, in New York and Washington are great on all levels. Their repercussions are not over. Although the collapse of the twin towers is huge, but the events that followed, and I'm not just talking about the economic repercussions, those are continuing, the events that followed are dangerous and more enormous than the collapse of the towers.
The values of this Western civilization under the leadership of America have been destroyed. Those awesome symbolic towers that speak of liberty, human rights, and humanity have been destroyed. They have gone up in smoke.
The proof came when the U.S. government pressured the media not to run our statements that are not longer than very few minutes. They felt that the truth started to reach the American people, the truth that we are not terrorists as they understand it but because we are being attacked in Palestine, Iraq, Lebanon, Sudan, Somalia, Kashmir, the Philippines and everywhere else. They understood the truth that this is a reaction from the youth of the Muslim nation against the British government. They forgot all about fair and objective reporting and reporting the other side of the issue. I tell you freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people and the West in general will enter an unbearable hell and a choking life because the Western leadership acts under the Zionist lobby's influence for the purpose of serving Israel, which kills our sons unlawfully in order for them to remain in their leadership positions.

Ezra

10-19-2002, 10:02 PM

Q: What is your assessment of the Arabic reaction and the effects on the Islamic world? Some were joyous. Others said, "We can't accept this. This is terrorism, not Islam."
BIN LADEN: The events proved the extent of terrorism that America exercises in the world. Bush stated that the world has to be divided in two: Bush and his supporters, and any country that doesn't get into the global crusade is with the terrorists. What terrorism is clearer than this? Many governments were forced to support this "new terrorism." They had to go along with this although they knew that we are defending our brothers and defending our sacred values. Many Western and Eastern leaders have said that the true roots of terrorism should be dealt with; they meant the Palestinian cause. Then we have a righteous cause, but they couldn't admit this out loud of fear of America. They say we are terrorists but solve the Palestinian cause. All of a sudden, Bush and Blair declared, "The time has come to establish an independent state for Palestine." Throughout the past years the time hasn't come, until after these attacks, for the establishment of the Palestinian state. They only understand the language of attacks and killings.
Just as they're killing us, we have to kill them so that there will be a balance of terror. This is the first time the balance of terror has been close between the two parties, between Muslims and Americans, in the modern age. American politicians used to do whatever they wanted with us. The victim was forbidden to scream or to moan. [unintelligible]
Clinton has said, "Israel has the right to defend itself," after the massacres of Qana. He didn't even reprimand Israel. When the new President Bush and Colin Powell declared in the first few months of their taking office that they will move the American embassy to Jerusalem. They said Jerusalem will be the eternal capital of Israel. They got a standing ovation in Congress and the Senate. This is the biggest bigotry, and this is tyranny loud and clear.
The battle has moved to inside America. We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory or until we meet God before that occurs.
Q: Sheikh, I see that most of your answers are about Palestine and the Palestinian cause. In the beginning, your focus on killing the unfaithful and the Jews ... and you specified then that the Americans should be sent out of the Arabian Peninsula. Now you're turning your attention to Palestine first and the Arabian Peninsula second. What's your comment?
BIN LADEN: Jihad is a duty to liberate Al-Aqsa, and to help the powerless in Palestine, Iraq and Lebanon and in every Muslim country. There is no doubt that the liberation of the Arabian Peninsula from infidels is a duty as well. But it is not right to say that Osama put the Palestinian issue first. I have given speeches in which I encourage Muslims to boycott America economically. I said Americans take our money and give it to Israel to kill our children in Palestine. I established a front a few years ago named The Islamic Front for Jihad against the Jews and the Crusaders. Sometimes we find the right elements to push for one cause more than the other. Last year's blessed intifada helped us to push more for the Palestinian issue. This push helps the other cause. Attacking America helps the cause of Palestine and vice versa. No conflict between the two; on the contrary, one serves the other.
Q: Sheikh, now let's talk about Christians and Jews. You issued a fatwa for jihad against the Christians and the Jews. As we can see, some other clerics also issued fatwas. There might be some who share your views, and some who oppose them and said this is against the teachings of Islam They ask how can you kill a Jew or a Christian or a Catholic just because of his religion? They say that your statements contradict what Muslim clerics teach.
BIN LADEN: God bless Allah, many fatwas have been declared on these issues, especially in Pakistan. Sami Zai in Pakistan is a very well known authority on this. He has written many times on the subject. So did the famous Abdullah bin Ohkmah Al-Shehebi of Saudi Arabia. I read a book titled "The Truth About The New Crusades." They all wrote about and allowed the fighting of Americans and Israelis in Palestine and allowing their killings and destroying their economies and properties.
Q [interrupting]: How about the killing of innocent civilians?
BIN LADEN: The killing of innocent civilians, as America and some intellectuals claim, is really very strange talk. Who said that our children and civilians are not innocent and that shedding their blood is justified? That it is lesser in degree? When we kill their innocents, the entire world from east to west screams at us, and America rallies its allies, agents, and the sons of its agents. Who said that our blood is not blood, but theirs is? Who made this pronouncement? Who has been getting killed in our countries for decades? More than 1 million children, more than 1 million children died in Iraq and others are still dying. Why do we not hear someone screaming or condemning, or even someone's words of consolation or condolence?
How come millions of Muslims are being killed? Where are the experts, the writers, the scholars and the freedom fighters, where are the ones who have an ounce a faith in them? They react only if we kill American civilians, and every day we are being killed, children are being killed in Palestine. We should review the books. Human nature makes people stand with the powerful without noticing it. When they talk about us, they know we won't respond to them. In the past, an Arab king once killed an ordinary Arab man. The people started wondering how come kings have the right to kill people just like that. Then the victim's brother went and killed the king in revenge. People were disappointed with the young man and asked him, "How could you kill a king for your brother?" The man said, "My brother is my king." We consider all our children in Palestine to be kings.
We kill the kings of the infidels, kings of the crusaders, and civilian infidels in exchange for those of our children they kill. This is permissible in law and intellectually.
Q: So what you are saying is that this is a type of reciprocal treatment. They kill our innocents, so we kill their innocents.
BIN LADEN: So we kill their innocents, and I say it is permissible in law and intellectually, because those who spoke on this matter spoke from a juridical perspective.
Q: What is their position?
BIN LADEN: That it is not permissible. They spoke of evidence that the Messenger of God forbade the killing of women and children. This is true.
[Break in tape.]
Q: This is exactly what I'm asking about.
BIN LADEN: However, this prohibition of the killing of children and innocents is not absolute. It is not absolute. There are other texts that restrict it.
I agree that the Prophet Mohammed forbade the killing of babies and women. That is true, but this is not absolute. There is a saying, "If the infidels killed women and children on purpose, we shouldn't shy way from treating them in the same way to stop them from doing it again." The men that God helped [attack, on September 11] did not intend to kill babies; they intended to destroy the strongest military power in the world, to attack the Pentagon that houses more than 64,000 employees, a military center that houses the strength and the military intelligence.
Q: How about the twin towers?
BIN LADEN: The towers are an economic power and not a children's school. Those that were there are men that supported the biggest economic power in the world. They have to review their books. We will do as they do. If they kill our women and our innocent people, we will kill their women and their innocent people until they stop.
Q: Media organizations as well as intelligence information says that you run a big network in some 40 to 50 countries. There is information that al Qaeda is very influential and powerful and it is behind attacks and Islamic foundations and terrorist organizations. How much is al Qaeda dependent on Osama Bin Laden?
BIN LADEN: This has nothing to do with this poor servant of God, nor with the al Qaeda organization. We are the children of an Islamic nation whose leader is Mohammed.
We have one religion, one God, one book, one prophet, one nation. Our book teaches us to be brothers of a faith. All the Muslims are brothers. The name "al Qaeda" was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al Qaeda [meaning "the base" in English]. And the name stayed. We speak about the conscience of the nation; we are the sons of the nation. We brothers in Islam from the Middle East, Philippines, Malaysia, India, Pakistan and as far as Mauritania.
Those men who sacrificed themselves in New York and Washington, they are the spokesmen of the nation's conscience. They are the nation's conscience that saw they have to avenge against the oppression.
Not all terrorism is cursed; some terrorism is blessed. A thief, a criminal, for example feels terrorized by the police. So, do we say to the policeman, "You are a terrorist"? No. Police terrorism against criminals is a blessed terrorism because it will prevent the criminal from repeating his deed. America and Israel exercise the condemned terrorism. We practice the good terrorism which stops them from killing our children in Palestine and elsewhere.
Q: What's al Qaeda's strategic plan in the Arab world. Some countries had commented about what's going on while others supported the Americans in their position toward you. The Saudi interior minister warned people against you, and against what you say, and against what you do and the path you follow. What's your reaction to his statement?

Ezra

10-19-2002, 10:08 PM

BIN LADEN: We are a part of that nation. We work hard to lift it out of oppression, and to stop those who want to manipulate its book and its God. I heard some of what the Saudi interior minister said when he said that we are turning Muslims to atheists, God forbid. Our goal is for our nation to unite in the face of the Christian crusade. This is the fiercest battle. Muslims have never faced anything bigger than this. Bush said it in his own words: "crusade." When Bush says that, they try to cover up for him, then he said he didn't mean it. He said "crusade." Bush divided the world into two: "either with us or with terrorism." Bush is the leader; he carries the big cross and walks. I swear that every one who follows Bush in his scheme has given up Islam and the word of the prophet. This is very clear. The prophet has said, "Believers don't follow Jews or Christians." Our wise people have said that those who follow the unfaithful have become unfaithful themselves. Those who follow Bush in his crusade against Muslims have denounced God.
[Bin Laden recites verses from the Quran on same subject.]
Those who support Bush, even with one word, have fallen.
Q: Even with one word: You are putting a big group of Muslims in the circle.
BIN LADEN: Know the truth and its roots. The book of God is our guide. Either Islam or atheism.
Q: Can small countries like Qatar, or Bahrain or Kuwait, which don't have much control, be excused? The Qatari foreign minister said, "I am surrounded by superpowers that will very easily wipe me off the map. That's why I have to ally myself with Americans and others."
BIN LADEN: In the subject of Islam and the killing of the faithful, what those people are doing cannot be excused. If the emir of Qatar orders someone to kill your child, and you ask this person why he did it, he'll say, "Look, brother Tayseer, I like you very much, but I was forced to do it." Nothing will excuse him for aiding the tyrant to kill your child. Your child's blood goes to waste like this. They claim that they don't have much control. Their claim that they were forced into it is not considered righteous in Islam. People's blood is being wasted in this case.
Q: What do you think of the so-called "war of civilizations"? You always keep repeating "crusaders" and words like that all the time. Does that mean you support the war of civilizations?
BIN LADEN: No doubt about that: The book mentions this clearly. The Jews and the Americans made up this call for peace in the world. The peace they're calling for is a big fairy tale. They're just drugging the Muslims as they lead them to slaughter. And the slaughter is still going on. If we defend ourselves, they call us terrorists. The prophet has said, "The end won't come before the Muslims and the Jews fight each other till the Jew hides between a tree and a stone. Then the tree and stone say, "Oh, you Muslim, this is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him." He who claims there will be a lasting peace between us and the Jews is an infidel. He'll be denouncing the book and what's in it. Begin, the leader of the massacre of Kfar Yassin, and the traitor, Anwar Sadat, who sold the land and the blood of the mujahedeen both were given the Nobel Peace Prize. There will come some deceiving times where the liars will be believed and the truthful won't be believed. That's the situation in the Arabic world with its great leadership. They are lying to people. But god's relief and victory is coming soon.
Q: As you call it, this is a war between the crusaders and Muslims. How do you see the way out of this crisis?
BIN LADEN: We are in a decisive battle with the Jews and those who support them from the crusaders and the Zionists. We won't hesitate to kill the Israelis who occupied our land and kill our children and women day and night. And every person who will side with them should blame themselves only. Now how we will get out of the tunnel, that is the [unintelligible] of the other side. We were attacked, and our duty is to remove this attack. As far as the Jews are concerned, the prophet has announced that we will fight them under this name, on this land. America forced itself and its people in this [unintelligible] more than 53 years ago. It recognized Israel and supported its creation financially. In 1973, under Nixon, it supported Israel with men, weapons and ammunition from Washington all the way to Tel Aviv. This support helped change the course of history. It is the Muslim's duty to fight. ...
[America] made hilarious claims. They said that Osama's messages have codes in them to the terrorists. It's as if we were living in the time of mail by carrier pigeon, when there are no phones, no travelers, no Internet, no regular mail, no express mail, and no electronic mail. I mean, these are very humorous things. They discount people's intellects.
We swore that America wouldn't live in security until we live it truly in Palestine. This showed the reality of America, which puts Israel's interest above its own people's interest. America won't get out of this crisis until it gets out of the Arabian Peninsula, and until it stops its support of Israel. This equation can be understood by any American child, but Bush, because he's an Israeli agent, cannot understand this equation unless the swords threatened him above him head.
Q: Do you have anything to do with anthrax that is spreading around the world?
BIN LADEN: These diseases are a punishment from God and a response to oppressed mothers' prayers in Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine. There is no wall between the prayer of the oppressed and God. This is God's response to these prayers.
Q: Do you have a message for the viewers of Al-Jazeera? You know Al-Jazeera is now translated into so many languages and transmitted around the world.
BIN LADEN: In this fighting between Islam and the crusaders, we will continue our jihad. We will incite the nation for Jihad until we meet God and get his blessing. Any country that supports the Jews can only blame itself. If Sheik Suleiman Abu Gheith spoke specifically about America and Britain, this is only an example to give other countries the chance to review their books.
What do Japan or Australia or Germany have to do with this war? They just support the infidels and the crusaders.
This is a recurring war. The original crusade brought Richard [the Lionhearted] from Britain, Louis from France, and Barbarus from Germany. Today the crusading countries rushed as soon as Bush raised the cross. They accepted the rule of the cross.
What do the Arab countries have to do with this crusade? Everyone that supports Bush, even with one word, is an act of great treason. You change your name and you help the enemy to kill our children, and you are telling me we are facilitating things between us and the Americans. What are they talking about? Those who talk about the loss of innocent people didn't yet taste how it feels when you lose a child, don't know how it feels when you look in your child's eyes and all you see is fear, don't know how it feels when, in Palestine, our brothers are being hunted by army helicopters in the middle of their own homes with their families and children. Everyday. They show you the injured and the dead, and they shed tears, but no tears are shed for our women and children killed in Palestine. Are they not afraid that one day they get the same treatment?
[Bin Laden recites verses from the Quran on same subject.]
The Europeans are free, but when they side with the Jews, that their [unintelligible]. I tell Muslims to believe in the victory of God and in Jihad against the infidels of the world. The killing of Jews and Americans is one of the greatest duties.
[More Quranic verses.]
Remember the saying, "If they want to exile you, they can't exile you unless it is written by God." Don't ask anyone's opinion when it comes to the killing of Americans, and remember your appointment with God and the best of the prophets.
[More Quranic verses.]
As far as Pakistan siding with the crusaders, our brothers in Pakistan and their actions will facilitate our attack on the coalition of crusaders. Everyone supporting America, even medically, is considered renouncing Islam. Our brother in Pakistan should react pretty quick and strong in order to praise God and his prophet. Today, Islam is calling on you to act quickly.
[Quoting the farewell speech of Mohammed] "Oh, Islam, oh, Islam, there is no other god than God, and Mohammed is the prophet of God."