Sharia in the UK, beginning of the end?

[ShimonG]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts

ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.

The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.

Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.

Siddiqi said: “We realised that under the Arbitration Act we can make rulings which can be enforced by county and high courts. The act allows disputes to be resolved using alternatives like tribunals. This method is called alternative dispute resolution, which for Muslims is what the sharia courts are.”

The disclosure that Muslim courts have legal powers in Britain comes seven months after Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was pilloried for suggesting that the establishment of sharia in the future “seems unavoidable” in Britain.

In July, the head of the judiciary, the lord chief justice, Lord Phillips, further stoked controversy when he said that sharia could be used to settle marital and financial disputes.

In fact, Muslim tribunal courts started passing sharia judgments in August 2007. They have dealt with more than 100 cases that range from Muslim divorce and inheritance to nuisance neighbours.

It has also emerged that tribunal courts have settled six cases of domestic violence between married couples, working in tandem with the police investigations.

Siddiqi said he expected the courts to handle a greater number of “smaller” criminal cases in coming years as more Muslim clients approach them. “All we are doing is regulating community affairs in these cases,” said Siddiqi, chairman of the governing council of the tribunal.

Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.

Politicians and church leaders expressed concerns that this could mark the beginnings of a “parallel legal system” based on sharia for some British Muslims.

Dominic Grieve, the shadow home secretary, said: “If it is true that these tribunals are passing binding decisions in the areas of family and criminal law, I would like to know which courts are enforcing them because I would consider such action unlawful. British law is absolute and must remain so.”

Douglas Murray, the director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, said: “I think it’s appalling. I don’t think arbitration that is done by sharia should ever be endorsed or enforced by the British state.”

There are concerns that women who agree to go to tribunal courts are getting worse deals because Islamic law favours men.

Siddiqi said that in a recent inheritance dispute handled by the court in Nuneaton, the estate of a Midlands man was divided between three daughters and two sons.

The judges on the panel gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with sharia. Had the family gone to a normal British court, the daughters would have got equal amounts.

In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders. There was no further punishment.

In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations.

Siddiqi said that in the domestic violence cases, the advantage was that marriages were saved and couples given a second chance.

Inayat Bunglawala, assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: “The MCB supports these tribunals. If the Jewish courts are allowed to flourish, so must the sharia ones.”

[ShimonG]

I'd request all posters to not respond to the diatribes of moderate moslems. Apparently, he has found a way to close threads that get too close to the truth by initiating abuses, inviting retaliation from us, and then getting his friends to close threads.

Instead, create a stink that even his friends cannot ignore when he hurls abuses by directly reporting the abuses to the mods and posting a reply on this thread so that we can keep count, which is open and not sub rosa as preferred by moderate moslems and their friends. TIA.

[ShimonG]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/022743.php:vomit:

...............What this means in practice was evident from a recent inheritance dispute in the Midlands, when the Nuneaton shari’a court divided the estate of a Muslim father between three daughters and two sons. The “judges” gave the sons twice as much as the daughters—perfectly in accordance with sharia, of course, but contrary to any regular British court, which would have given the daughters equal shares. In six cases of domestic violence quoted by Siddiqi, the “judges” ordered the husbands to take “anger management” classes and “mentoring from community elders” (such as imams and shari’a judges). In each case, the battered women subsequently withdrew the complaints and the police stopped their investigations. It should be noted that under normal British law those six cases could have been prosecuted as criminal, rather than “family” cases....

[Mediocrates]

You do know that the Druze have their own religious courts in Israel, right? Because they do.

[ShimonG]

How many suicide attacks have the Druze launched against the civilized world?

It is the height of folly to assume that allowing jewish or buddhist or any other civil law will have the same benign effects as islamic law.

[Mediocrates]

How many? Probably none in Israel. They're certainly big on honor killings though. It's quite an issue.

[bararallu]

Just one... from lebanon. And we released him after he murdered a whole family.

[ShimonG]

Great. So we agree that the impact of the Druze managing their affairs in their own courts is limited in scope.

Now, what idiot wants to claim that the scope of islamic sharia courts, given islam's rapine and murderous tenets, will remain LIMITED in scope?

[savvy]

Mediocrates, Sharia is not just religious law. It's law that's legally binding over an entire nation or the law of the land. It permits no other system of law or rule and rules over Muslims and non-Muslims alike. A non-Muslim who steals can be punished according to how theft should be punished under Sharia.

[andak01]

Mediocrates, Sharia is not just religious law. It's law that's legally binding over an entire nation or the law of the land. It permits no other system of law or rule and rules over Muslims and non-Muslims alike. A non-Muslim who steals can be punished according to how theft should be punished under Sharia.

Uh huh. And you have an example of that happening in the UK? Or are you just blowing smoke? Has a non-Muslim been sentenced under Sharia law for anything in the UK? Has a thief lost a hand in the UK after being sentenced by Sharia law? I thought so.

[Kenneth]

It would appear the these courts have ruled on matters of a criminal nature. There would be more public debate on this if the U.K. economy wasn't is a crisis.

[savvy]

Uh huh. And you have an example of that happening in the UK? Or are you just blowing smoke? Has a non-Muslim been sentenced under Sharia law for anything in the UK? Has a thief lost a hand in the UK after being sentenced by Sharia law? I thought so.

Not yet, but the possiblities are endless... I thought you were a moderate Muslim that agreed several times that Sharia was a brutal theocracy and should therefore not be implemented in the West. Thanks for letting your true colours out.

[scattergood]

Uh huh. And you have an example of that happening in the UK? Or are you just blowing smoke? Has a non-Muslim been sentenced under Sharia law for anything in the UK? Has a thief lost a hand in the UK after being sentenced by Sharia law? I thought so.

Typical andak. A problem hasn't happened, so don't worry about it and stop complaining. But once it has happed it is too late.

It is like being in a car hurtling towards a cliff. You say, hey maybe we should slow down or change directions, we are going to head off a cliff. Andak's response above would be akin to saying 'shut up, we haven't gone off no stinkin' cliff'. It would be funny if it weren't so transparently contradictory and falls in line with Islamist / soft jihad thinking.

[savvy]

Welcome back Scattergood.

[andak01]

It is like being in a car hurtling towards a cliff. You say, hey maybe we should slow down or change directions, we are going to head off a cliff. Andak's response above would be akin to saying 'shut up, we haven't gone off no stinkin' cliff'. It would be funny if it weren't so transparently contradictory and falls in line with Islamist / soft jihad thinking.

So then, the answer is no. Non-Muslims aren't subjected to any rulings of any Sharia court in the UK. And no cases of theft in the have ended in the loss of a hand. Thank you. Why should we distinguish between things that haven't happened and never will and things that have and do? In the interest of accuracy. The existance of a cliff doesn't necessitate a crash. We can acknowledge the existance of the cliff without getting hysterical. If there is a Shariah tribunal that is breaking the laws of England, they should be shut down. But family law, weddings, funerals, wills is practiced by other religions and has been for generations. I personally know a man who specializes in Catholic anullments. The laws of England of course should always supercede what happens at those councils and no criminal cases whatsoever should be tried there.

Tell me though, what do you propose? Shariah be stricken from all languages? Everyone breathing the word gets arrested?

[savvy]

This is from a country that does not have an official Sharia court.

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/09/denmark-religious-pressure-in-schools.html

Denmark: Religious pressure in schools

Children in Danish schools undergo religious harassment. This happens during the currently ongoing Muslim festival of Ramadan, when a group of Muslim students criticize their schoolmates for violating the fasting rules of Ramadan by easting and drinking during daylight hours, report several Danish schools with a high proportion of Muslim students. At Hillerødgade's Skole in Copenhagen the problem has consequences.

"Some of the children who fast criticize the children who don't fast. Therefore we have decided that children who fast should be excluded from the cafeteria area. So there will be a place to eat in the cafeteria without people having an attitude imposed on them, says health project leader Marika Jensen who has also seen some school children who are so afraid of being seen eating that they sneak into the cafeteria area not during the lunch break in order to get a bite to eat.

She explains that it's typical for Muslim children whose parents want them to eat but who simply find it hard to explain to their Muslim friends that they eat and drink.

At Klostevænget's Heldagsskole in Copenhagen the school inspector was surprised when she asked in an 8th grade class with a large Muslim population about fasting.

"Everybody said that they fasted. Even a boy of Danish background said that he did it, but I truly didn't believe it. It was just to hard for him to sit with his bread with chopped liver among schoolmates who all fasted. I think that he goes home and eats his food later, and it was done out of tactical prudence by him," says school inspector Karen-Margrethe Grønlund.

In Aarhus the Ramadan has also caused conflict.

"Some girls in the lower classes had gotten from their parents clear views on what they should avoid during Ramadan, and they wanted to share this with some friends. They explained what good Muslims did and what bad Muslims did. As a school we needed to deal with it and get involved, even if it was a sensitive topic, says school head Torben Haugård of Ellekærskolen.

Also in Tovshøjskolen in Århus teachers had to intervene with Muslim students who interfered with their classmates religion and eating habits.

Religious conflicts had previously been described as a problem among Muslim students at Syddansk University.

Lene Kühle, lecturer and PHD in religion sociology at Aarhus University, points out that there have also been conflicts among Muslim cashiers on whether to wear the headscarf during work or not. She think that Ramadan often increases the conflicts when the increased attention to being religious also increases attention to lapses.

The religion sociologist who had researched the Muslim communities in Denmark, has two reasons why religious conflicts arise among Danish Muslims.

"Islam becomes a weapon to bully others. People use a completely banal religious to assert themselves," says Lene Kühle.

another reason is that Islam's status as a minority religion in the West leads to self-appointed religious policemen. They are found in many places in society, among others in prisons, says Lene Kühle:

"Regular Muslim go around and impose on people a certain form of Islam. It goes together with that there aren't others to do this in Denmark. If one could imagine that we had a mufti in the country, that said how people should act during Ramadan, then Muslims would have some basis - but now it's up to the individual and it causes many interpretations and clashes.

[andak01]

"Some of the children who fast criticize the children who don't fast. Therefore we have decided that children who fast should be excluded from the cafeteria area. So there will be a place to eat in the cafeteria without people having an attitude imposed on them, says health project leader Marika Jensen who has also seen some school children who are so afraid of being seen eating that they sneak into the cafeteria area not during the lunch break in order to get a bite to eat.



So the ignorant Muslim children tried to imposed a rule on the non-Muslims and that caused them to get kicked out of the cafeteria. I agree with that ruling. You take care of Muslim bullies the same way as any other type of bully. If it weren't for the hysteria afforded by these articles, that's exactly what would happen. The principal would introduce them to the board of education, the one made of oak!

She explains that it's typical for Muslim children whose parents want them to eat but who simply find it hard to explain to their Muslim friends that they eat and drink.

They should do as I do and socialize with others normally without making a fuss. I go to lunch with my colleagues as usual, I just don't eat or drink anything. There is zero value for fasting against one's will.

"Islam becomes a weapon to bully others. People use a completely banal religious to assert themselves," says Lene Kühle.

Very neutal comment that! And this weapon, what is it achieving? Muslim children are thrown out of the cafeteria, Muslim medical students fail their exams, Muslim cab drivers get suspended, Muslim women can't get jobs or drivers licenses. On top of that, their constant failures are being used as a scare tactic in the media that makes things even worse for them. I don't feel a bit sorry for Muslims that try to impose on non-Muslims, but I do feel sad for those who actually have been conned by the media to believe that they are successful. This article is yet another proof that they are not and never will be.

[scattergood]

So then, the answer is no. Non-Muslims aren't subjected to any rulings of any Sharia court in the UK. And no cases of theft in the have ended in the loss of a hand. Thank you. Why should we distinguish between things that haven't happened and never will and things that have and do? In the interest of accuracy. The existance of a cliff doesn't necessitate a crash. We can acknowledge the existance of the cliff without getting hysterical. If there is a Shariah tribunal that is breaking the laws of England, they should be shut down. But family law, weddings, funerals, wills is practiced by other religions and has been for generations. I personally know a man who specializes in Catholic anullments. The laws of England of course should always supercede what happens at those councils and no criminal cases whatsoever should be tried there.

Tell me though, what do you propose? Shariah be stricken from all languages? Everyone breathing the word gets arrested?

Again your logic and thinking are seriously flawed. Firstly you imply that Sharia being will 'never' be imposed on non-Muslims. This is at best opinion to be disputed and at worst an lie to lull people to ignore the issue. Given that 40% of Muslim youth, you know those who will eventually become adults, voters, and involved in politics, WANT Shariah in the UK to apply to Muslim majority areas (and thus apply to non-Muslims in those areas), the issue of Shariah being applied to non-Muslims is a reasonable concern. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html) That 33% of Muslim UNIVERSITY STUDENTS support killing in the name of Islam makes this potential threat even more compelling. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4407115.ece) The numbers and thus the facts, just don't support your fantasyland, everybody hold hands, kumbaya version of what you call Islam.

Secondly, while you are right, that there is a cliff doesn't mean you are heading towards it, you of course completely avoid that actual analogy I bring up. The issue isn't the cliff, but whether you are hurtling towards it. It is manifestly clear that the UK and the rest of Europe are hurtling towards the cliff of Islamisation. Facts, like the ones above, get in your way of making the point that the Islamization is happening, but it won't stop you from asserting such falsities at every turn given your dishonorable and mendatious tendencies in such areas.

Thirdly, the issue is not only limited to Shariah being applied to non-Muslims, but to Muslims who don't want it applied to them. Let's say two people get married, and they both happen to be Muslim, and moderately practicing Muslims at that. Then 4 years later, the woman meets a nice non-Muslim man, falls in love and leaves her husband, who for sake of argument had been abusing her and has married another woman in Jordan and thus the second wife is recognized by the UK. The husband gets a Shariah divorce in which he receives the vast majority of his 10M Pound holdings and the divorced wife is given a pittance. However under UK Divorce law she is entitled to 1/3 to 1/2 of all her holdings. Unfortunately given the fact that Shairah is now enforcable through the UK courts what will happen? Many of us assert that the Shariah law will eventually hold primacy in cases like this, thus stripping UK citizens of the very protections of their legal heritage starting with the Magna Carta. This is another aspect of the cliff that you just can't deal with.

[savvy]

Very neutal comment that! And this weapon, what is it achieving? Muslim children are thrown out of the cafeteria, Muslim medical students fail their exams, Muslim cab drivers get suspended, Muslim women can't get jobs or drivers licenses. On top of that, their constant failures are being used as a scare tactic in the media that makes things even worse for them. I don't feel a bit sorry for Muslims that try to impose on non-Muslims, but I do feel sad for those who actually have been conned by the media to believe that they are successful. This article is yet another proof that they are not and never will be.

Muslims who refuse to integrate should be subject to the law like everyone else. A woman who refuses to show her face for an I.D. should not be entitled to a driver's license. What is this acheiving? People being sued for Islamaphobia and the constant cries of racism (which race is Islam again)

Teacher faces classroom ban for criticising Islam
http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/latest-north-east-news/Teacher-faces-classroom-ban-for.4512592.jp

[dayag]

Muslims who refuse to integrate should be subject to the law like everyone else. A woman who refuses to show her face for an I.D. should not be entitled to a driver's license. What is this acheiving? People being sued for Islamaphobia and the constant cries of racism (which race is Islam again)

Teacher faces classroom ban for criticising Islam
http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/latest-north-east-news/Teacher-faces-classroom-ban-for.4512592.jp

Do you really think a teacher in secondary school should be allowed to "criticize" a religion? I know I would be very irate if one of my kids came home from school and said their teacher was attacking Judaism. As it was they had fellow students telling them they were going to hell for being Jewish.

College is one thing, but secondary school?

[andak01]

Muslims who refuse to integrate should be subject to the law like everyone else. A woman who refuses to show her face for an I.D. should not be entitled to a driver's license. What is this acheiving? People being sued for Islamaphobia and the constant cries of racism (which race is Islam again)

Teacher faces classroom ban for criticising Islam
http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/latest-north-east-news/Teacher-faces-classroom-ban-for.4512592.jp

I'd be curious to see exactly what it was he posted. You are aware of course that writing extremely anti-semitic statements can get you arrested in parts of the EU.

The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism.

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/antisemitism/EU-definition-of-antisemitism.htm

So there are groups that are supporting legislative protection of Jews. Do you support that?

[Rob]

They should do as I do and socialize with others normally without making a fuss. I go to lunch with my colleagues as usual, I just don't eat or drink anything. There is zero value for fasting against one's will.

Although I try my best to avoid Muslim countries during Ramadhan, sometimes I have no choice. I cannot help but notice a few remarkable (IMO) things:

-eating/drinking/smoking outside your own home during Ramadhan is a punishable crime in conservative countries (and yes people get arrested over this). How can you punish a person for eating or drinking? Isn´t Ramadhan also their to strenghten your will and withstand temptation? What about children, sick and pregnant women, aren´t they exempt from fasting? I can understand that you shouldn´t provoke...but eating a sandwich in a quite place should´t have to be a problem, but it is.
-Ramadhan is getting extremly commercialized the last couple of years. Kinda like Xmas, people "celebrate" but sort of have forgotten the purpose. Dafka during Ramadhan infidel shops have Ramadhan specials, p.e. alcohol for half the price. Which was REALLY surprising for me. And bars have Ramadhan happy hours.
-People eat more during Ramadhan than outside Ramadhan. Iftar is HUGE. If I am not mistaken Muhammed allows eating during the night, but also said that it should be done at a minimum (I might be mistaken here).

This time no critizism, just a few observations.

[dayag]

Although I try my best to avoid Muslim countries during Ramadhan, sometimes I have no choice. I cannot help but notice a few remarkable (IMO) things:

-eating/drinking/smoking outside your own home during Ramadhan is a punishable crime in conservative countries (and yes people get arrested over this). How can you punish a person for eating or drinking? Isn´t Ramadhan also their to strenghten your will and withstand temptation? What about children, sick and pregnant women, aren´t they exempt from fasting? I can understand that you shouldn´t provoke...but eating a sandwich in a quite place should´t have to be a problem, but it is.
-Ramadhan is getting extremly commercialized the last couple of years. Kinda like Xmas, people "celebrate" but sort of have forgotten the purpose. Dafka during Ramadhan infidel shops have Ramadhan specials, p.e. alcohol for half the price. Which was REALLY surprising for me. And bars have Ramadhan happy hours.
-People eat more during Ramadhan than outside Ramadhan. Iftar is HUGE. If I am not mistaken Muhammed allows eating during the night, but also said that it should be done at a minimum (I might be mistaken here).

This time no critizism, just a few observations.

I know a Palestinian guy who had his feet beaten along with two friends for making too much noise during Ramadhan in Kuwait. I guess some people like to sleep during the day and they were disturbing the neighborhood.

[savvy]

Do you really think a teacher in secondary school should be allowed to "criticize" a religion? I know I would be very irate if one of my kids came home from school and said their teacher was attacking Judaism. As it was they had fellow students telling them they were going to hell for being Jewish.

College is one thing, but secondary school?

The teacher did this outside the classroom, on a chat forum. The teacher was not inciting violence or harrasement, just criticism of religion. I don't support the teacher, but don't like the idea that Islam is the only religion that's above criticism.

So there are groups that are supporting legislative protection of Jews. Do you support that?

Yes, if the opposition is inciting people to violence or harrassment.

[andak01]

Although I try my best to avoid Muslim countries during Ramadhan, sometimes I have no choice. I cannot help but notice a few remarkable (IMO) things:

-eating/drinking/smoking outside your own home during Ramadhan is a punishable crime in conservative countries (and yes people get arrested over this). How can you punish a person for eating or drinking? Isn´t Ramadhan also their to strenghten your will and withstand temptation?

You're absolutely right. That's an abomination that has nothing to do with Sunna.

What about children, sick and pregnant women, aren´t they exempt from fasting?

They actually are and I'd be surprised if you tell me that they get punished even in Saudi for not fasting. Usually they make up lost days afterwards. Also fasting is prohibited during travel. I've had a couple of business trips during Ramadan. It's actually harder to start and stop I find.

I can understand that you shouldn´t provoke...but eating a sandwich in a quite place should´t have to be a problem, but it is.

It's something for a Muslim to softly chide another Muslim for. More than that, no.

-Ramadhan is getting extremly commercialized the last couple of years. Kinda like Xmas, people "celebrate" but sort of have forgotten the purpose. Dafka during Ramadhan infidel shops have Ramadhan specials, p.e. alcohol for half the price. Which was REALLY surprising for me. And bars have Ramadhan happy hours.

God help us. But are these bars run by Muslims? I'm not saying they couldn't be.

-People eat more during Ramadhan than outside Ramadhan. Iftar is HUGE. If I am not mistaken Muhammed allows eating during the night, but also said that it should be done at a minimum (I might be mistaken here).

You're pretty much correct and I'm guilty as charged! I often gain weight during Ramadan. Friday was Paki food, Saturday was Egyptian with a soup made by a Chadian woman and Sunday was Moroccan. And sweets!

This time no critizism, just a few observations.

Fairly accurate from what I gather. Humans are only human and subject to the same hypocrisies and weaknesses regardless of religion. So Ramadan becomes an orgy of feasting and comercialization and Easter becomes about chocolates and the Easter bunny. Sad, but not surprising.

[dayag]

The teacher did this outside the classroom, on a chat forum. The teacher was not inciting violence or harrasement, just criticism of religion. I don't support the teacher, but don't like the idea that Islam is the only religion that's above criticism.

?

Yes, if the opposition is inciting people to violence or harrassment.

Savvy,
Actually he was posting in the classroom while the kids were working:

While children worked on a project during a lesson at Houghton Kepier Sports College in Houghton-le-Spring, Mr Walker posted critical comments about asylum seekers, Islam, immigrants and "the promotion of homosexuality" on a chat forum.

But I must admit that I misinterpreted something in the article. I thought he posted on this forum as part of the classroom activities, which is why I was so irate about it.

[savvy]

Savvy,
Actually he was posting in the classroom while the kids were working:

Okay so he was using classroom time for other activities, now this is wrong and he should have been disciplined at the worst. Banning him from being able to teach for life is extreme.

[ShimonG]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2826537/Radical-Muslims-warn-of-another-911.html

...............Mr Choudary talked about the black "flag of Sharia" flying over Downing Street by 2020, saying 500 people a day were converting to Islam.

He laughed that Muslim families in places like Whitechapel and Bethnal Green in east London were having "10 or 12 children each".

[ShimonG]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054909/Have-babies-Muslims-UK-hate-fanatic-says-warning-comes-9-11-UK.html

'Have more babies and Muslims can take over the UK' hate fanatic says, as warning comes that 'next 9/11 will be in UK'

Muslim hate fanatics plan to take over Britain by having more babies and forcing a population explosion, it has been revealed.

The swollen Muslim population would be enough to conquer Britain from inside, they claim.

Fanatics told a meeting of young Muslims on the anniversary of the 9/11 atrocity, that it would then be easy to impose Sharia law on the population, the Sun newspaper reported.

Speaking at a meeting in London, Anjem Choudary, right-hand man of exiled preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed, said: "It may be by pure conversion that Britain will become an Islamic state. We may never need to conquer it from the outside."

He added: "We do not integrate into Christianity. We will ensure that one day you will integrate into the Sharia Islamic law."

His comments were made as voice of hate Bakri warned that the next 9/11 would take place in the UK.

Speaking via video link the exiled cleric said Osama bin Laden had taught the Americans a ‘lesson’ seven years ago, but the ‘crusaders’ had not learned.

He said the next ‘9/11 will take place in Britain, the next 7/7 [London bombings] could take place locally’.

Bakri told a 100-strong audience of supporters in Walthamstow, east London this week that he believed the British government was trying to assassinate him and claimed to have foiled a bomb plot.

Technical difficulties meant much of his speech was inaudible, but his appearance was greeted by cheers of ‘faith’ and ‘god is great’ at the community centre.

Bakri’s right-hand man, Anjem Choudary, led the proceedings in person, under the auspices of a group called Association for Islamic Research.

The most incendiary speech was delivered by Saiful Islam, who lauded Bin Laden and al Qaeda for their ‘courage’ in retaliating against the ‘dictatorship and oppression’ of the West. He said: ‘The blame of 9/11 belongs to no one but the American government. They are the terrorists.

'Sheikh Osama warned America numerous times, it was because of their own arrogance, because they thought they are a superpower and nobody could match them, that Sheikh Osama taught them a lesson - a lesson they still haven’t learned.’

Mr Islam, who is linked to an organisation called Salafi Youth for Islamic Propagation, warned that unless British and American troops were withdrawn from ‘Muslim lands’ they would be to blame for the consequences, saying the West would ‘never achieve security until our own [Muslim] lands achieve security’.

‘Wake up. Withdraw. Listen to the warnings. Muslims will stand side to side, not just al Qaeda. The actions of the British and Americans have given prominence to al Qaeda.

'All of us have a part to play in stopping the violence or the next 9/11 will take place in Britain, the next 7/7 could take place locally,’ he added.

Mr Choudary was the last speaker and was more guarded in his address to the young Muslim men that made up most of the audience.

But he criticised the Government for persecuting ‘innocent Muslims’, naming Bakri, Abu Hamza, Abu Qatada and Omar Brooks along with the defendants in the airliner bomb plot trial.

He said: ‘They [the Government] say they are civilised. But they don’t act very civilised. They jailed Sheikh Abu Qatada in Belmarsh prison. Is that the way you treat your guests?’

Mr Choudary then referred to Bakri’s notorious aim of flying the ‘flag of Sharia’ over Downing Street, claiming that this would happen by 2020 as 500 people a day were converting to Islam and laughing that Muslim families in places like Whitechapel and Bethnal Green in east London were having ‘10 or 12 children each’.

He ranted against mainstream bodies like the Muslim Council of Britain, who condemned 9/11 and 7/7, accusing them of ‘selling their souls to the devil’.

[Mediocrates]

A political Muslims state in the UK would look like any other political Muslim state w/o oil or a ready hand on the social welfare engine that would be required to subsidize all of this. Why do you think Pakistan is on the abyss? Why do you think Yemen is poor or Sudan or Somalia? Because of sentiments just like that. In 30 years almost 80% of all Saudis will be minors. Which means that just at the time that the oil gives out, there's no one to work to replace all the money they pumped out of the ground for free. Assuming of course they don't own the US by then.

So when these loons maintain that the uterus is a weapon, all that means is that over the long run they will finally win dominion over the world's biggest filthy refugee camp. Good luck with that.

[savvy]

Fairly accurate from what I gather. Humans are only human and subject to the same hypocrisies and weaknesses regardless of religion. So Ramadan becomes an orgy of feasting and comercialization and Easter becomes about chocolates and the Easter bunny. Sad, but not surprising.

That's a pale comparison, because Christmas and Easter are not fasting periods like Ramadan, but actual festivals.

[andak01]

That's a pale comparison, because Christmas and Easter are not fasting periods like Ramadan, but actual festivals.

I've been fortunate to have actually experienced both from the point of view of a believer. The comparison is quite apt. We fast during the day and fest during the night.

[dayag]

I've been fortunate to have actually experienced both from the point of view of a believer. The comparison is quite apt. We fast during the day and fest during the night.

Kind of like 40 days of Lent followed by Easter.

[savvy]

I've been fortunate to have actually experienced both from the point of view of a believer. The comparison is quite apt. We fast during the day and fest during the night.

What fast from even water on Christmas and Easter? The 40 days of lent Dayag brought up is more apt, however even lent does not include fasting 100%, during the day like Ramadan. The point is you're not supposed to fast on Christmas and Easter.

[savvy]

Christian Schools Closing for Islamic Festival
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/230908_2.htm

AMSTERDAM, 23/09/08 - At least two Amsterdam secondary schools with a Christian basis are to close during the Sugar Feast to accede to their Muslim pupils. Various other schools are also doing so, Reformatorisch Dagblad newspaper reported yesterday.

The Calvijn met Junior College in Amsterdam and the Huygens College, also in the capital, are both closing for the Sugar Feast. The Islamic festival marks the end of the Ramadan month of fasting and falls on or around 1 October this year.

The Calvijn met Junior College is closing for two days, and the Huygens College for one. Both are VMBO schools - the lowest level of secondary education - and although they are Christian, their pupils are virtually all immigrants.

The Party for Freedom (PVV) wants clarification from Education Minister Ronald Plasterk in the Lower House today. "This really cannot be allowed," in the view of PVV MP Martin Bosma. "The Netherlands is no Muslim country and will never become one either. We must never give in to the pressure of this ideology, which wants to take over the Netherlands bit by bit."

According to a spokesman for the Amarantis Education Group, under which both schools fall, the free day does not clash with its Christian principles. Various other schools throughout the Netherlands also ensure that their pupils are free on Sugar Feast day, according to Reformatorisch Dagblad.

[Rob]

I certainly donot agree with everything the PVV says, but they have a point here. In the Netherlands, eid al-fitr is most probably going to be a national holiday in the coming years. The above mentioned schools already implement it before this. If the majority of students are Muslims on a school I donot mind so much, but I do mind that is going to be a national holiday. What I mind more is that the schools implementing it now will make up for the lost day on national liberation day. :tdown:

[Mediocrates]

What with all the hookers and weed it seems like an odd place for Islamism to make a stand. Well an angry fundamentalist radical Islamist government as part of NATO should be interesting at any rate.

[bararallu]

Still hookers, but no weed.

[Rob]

Still hookers, but no weed.

No drugs, 1 gram will get you 5-10 years in jail. Hookers, bloody everywhere!

Edit: oh, I think were talking abt. Holland instead of Dubai.

Well in Holland most of the drugs are controlled by...people from Islamic countries.

[savvy]

What with all the hookers and weed it seems like an odd place for Islamism to make a stand.

Iran has plenty of hookers and drugs, too that hasn't stopped the Islamists. Only beer and pork are really frowned upon.

[Mediocrates]

Well then there you have it. Sharia works for everyone.

[savvy]

Sharia's way of doing away with corruption is making it non-visible. Iran's underbelly is hidden well, Netherlands and the U.K. might just go the same way with Sharia. Very similar to the what the commies do, we hide our corruption, silence our dissenters and show the public tapes on how evil America is .

[savvy]

http://www.snappedshot.com/archives/2884-Celebrate-Diversity-Proper-Behavior-on-Ramadan.html

Celebrate Diversity: Proper Behavior on Ramadan
By Brian C. Ledbetter · Tuesday, September 23. 2008 18:05

A homeless man in Brussels was beaten to a pulp this past Friday. His assailants were arrested and will presumably be charged with assault and battery soon, but what's genuinely shocking is the reasoning behind the attack.

You see, the two assailants were Muslim men, who when walking by in the street, became enraged that this homeless man had the sheer audacity to drink during Ramadan.

In a (presumably) non-Muslim country!

According to eyewitness accounts, "The father started screaming at him that he had 'no right to drink during Ramadan,'"

[Mediocrates]

I think the Westboro Baptist Church should be burned down and all the people scurrying out of the flames shot. But that's me.

[savvy]

London's Olympic Park toilets to turn away from Mecca out of respect for Islamic law

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1061051/Londons-Olympic-Park-toilets-turn-away-Mecca-respect-Islamic-law.html


Toilet facilities are being built at London's Olympic Park so Muslims will not have to face Mecca while sitting on the loo.

The Olympic Delivery Authority has said it wants to produce an ideal venue for people of all cultures, faiths, ages and abilities for the 2012 Games and beyond.


The Islamic religion prohibits Muslims from facing the Kiblah - the direction of prayer - when they visit the lavatory.

An artist's impression shows the proposed Olympic Park in use

An ODA spokeswoman confirmed that a 'percentage of general toilets would not face Mecca' out of sensitivity.

She could not say how many toilets would turn away from the East.

Also as part of the design, special washing facilities will be linked to Islamic prayer rooms.

It is not the first time toilets have changed direction to accommodate Muslims.

Last year, thousands of pounds of taxpayers' money was used to ensure toilets at Brixton prison in London did not offend Islamic law.

Muslim prisoners complained of having to sit sideways on toilets so as to not break code.

Faith leaders in the government pressured officials to approve turning the toilets 90 degrees.

[savvy]

I think the Westboro Baptist Church should be burned down and all the people scurrying out of the flames shot. But that's me.

Go join these guys..

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php

[Mediocrates]

Sharia courts: What should our response be? (http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/09/23/sharia-courts-what-should-our-response-be/)

Neil D, September 23rd 2008, 11:42 pm
Recently it has been reported that Sharia courts have been active in the UK (http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/09/16/sharia-sanctioned-by-uk-government/) on civil matters. We put some questions to Gina Khan, an outspoken critic of Islamist politics (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1354063.ece), and Paul Sikander (http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=300), a British Muslim Lawyer. Their answers, which they both contributed to, are set out below.
What is the drive behind these courts?
This is the culmination of decades of activism and ideological conditioning by Islamic institutions to incorporate the principles of separate laws for Muslims in the context of British society. More generally, it is a male led movement, disguising itself under the rhetoric of equal rights and superficial notions of ‘multiculturalism’, to embed reactionary religious laws in our society, and beyond that, to increase the influence and power of Islamic values interpreted by male clerics over the lives of Muslims in Britain. Even the acceptance of the most innocuous forms of arbitration is a big stick in their hands, as they can then act out control and judgment with the sanction of the state, and can use that to intimidate or bully opponents of sharia in the Muslim community into silence, as well as Muslim women or men who do not want to be governed by this system of religious law, but are unable to deny its influence over them when it is used as a tool of arbitration with the tacit acceptance of the supposedly secular state. It is also a starting point to the long term attempts to increase the range and influence of sharia in Britain even further.

How the courts are viewed by the Muslim community? How are they viewed by Women?
Most Muslims go about their daily life without thinking about such things, because their most pressing concerns are to feed their families. Amongst conservatives there is support for the idea of basic sharia arbitration, especially when the denial of them is erroneously generalized by activists like Bunglawala as discrimination against Muslims. On the other hand, all sentient non-Islamist Muslim women are horrified by the long-term consequences of ceding power to sharia-ist men. We need to acknowledge that most Islamists are attempting to Islamize Britain and we need to acknowledge that that Sharia law is being used to discredit democracy. It is apparent that Sharia law is different in many Muslim countries and very complex. The question we must ask is how will Sharia judges be operating? There are serious ideological issues to consider as well as legal. Remember Anjem Chowdery (of al-Mujhajiroun) and Omar Bakri; who both claimed to be judges of UK Sharia law. This is the impact of Islamist propaganda. Right now it’s not the BNP I fear or militant Jihadists, but the ’soft’ Jihadism creeping into almost every area of our lives at grassroot level. Mr Bunglawala from the MCB seems to have an issue with the Jewish arbitration system (Beth Din), but they do not impose or contravene with British laws and rights. Above all it is not Judaism that is in crisis, in conflict with democracies, or a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims worldwide. Islam has been brought to a crisis, and the Sharia law legal system is a major issue that cannot be resolved. It is ongoing and problematic.

What do I think government policy should be?
A brilliant Barrister who has written to Muslim newspapers about Muslim marriages, Neil Addison (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/07/11/nosplit/dt1101.xml#head6), has already shown how Muslim practice is out of step with every other religious community in Britain, including the other main minority religious communities, in refusing to submit marriage ceremonies to British law. This leaves Muslim women and men beleaguered when marriages go wrong and they do not have the same legal rights as all non-Muslims have in a similar situation, all because many parts of the Muslim establishment in Britain refuse to accept the privileging of secular British law over sharia. The British government must openly declare a long-term aim of harmonizing the Muslim community with mainstream British society, and the first step to doing this is to will into action at every level of administration in our country the intent to empower Muslim individuals by denying any religiously inspired legal sanction against them. For the long-term emancipation of British Muslims, and for the long term harmony of British society, there must be no legal barriers to hinder national integration between groups in our society. Anything that increases the power of Imams and Mullahs over Muslim women and men, and embeds their judgment and power, must be denied.
The government must also be wary of ’sharia creep’, where sharia is accepted tacitly. An example of this is the decision to allow the wives of a polygamous Muslim man to receive welfare benefits as a spouse. In the long term, the government is going to have to tackle issues like polygamy/bigamy in the Muslim community, which is perpetuated by the reluctance of the Islamic establishment in Britain to submit their marriage laws to secular British law. In fact, they need to start listening to Britsh Muslim women like Shaista Gohar, Diane Nammi and ex-muslim women Ayaa Hirsi Ali and Maryam Nawaazi..who all strongly oppose Sharia law. Plus how are these courts going to be monitored and how can measures be taken to stop discrimination of women in these kangaroo courts when Islamists make no scope for any kind of progress to create change within their interpretations of Sharia law, in regards to family law and the rights of Muslim women. To us Sharia law is medieval.

Is a failure to recognise Sharia courts de facto anti-Muslim?
No. To suggest that it is anti-Muslim is a cheap rhetorical trick employed by Islamists to mask their real agenda of special privileges and social control, and to paint Muslim opponents of sharia as being in some way traitorous or complicit in mainstream society’s discrimination against Islam. The fact remains that many British Muslim women and Pakistani Muslim women oppose Sharia law as it discriminates against them as women; wives, mothers and daughters particularly in cases of domestic violence, divorce, inheritance and rape/sexual abuse.

Progressive arguments against Sharia law?
All arguments against sharia are progressive. Sharia law is a reactionary system of social control, advocated by people with an agenda to impose their religious codes on the Muslim community in Britain, and to make non-Muslims abide by their worldview and interpretations of how Muslims should have their lives regulated. This is a long term agenda, it is something that all progressive people should be aware of, and it is something that thoughtful politicians should build a consensus on across parties, so that in the long term, whether the government is headed by the Conservatives or Labour, there can be unity of purpose and intent on this issue. Ultimately nothing can compare to secular laws of equality and fairness for all.

[ShimonG]

The phrase below is the KEY.

Sharia courts: What should our response be? (http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/09/23/sharia-courts-what-should-our-response-be/)

All arguments against sharia are progressive

[ShimonG]

Yet another manifestation of "peaceful" islam and what sharia has in store for the kaffir.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080927204747.vj5srmx9&show_article=1

Police arrested three men on Saturday in connection with a fire at the offices of the publisher of a book about the Prophet Mohammed and his child bride.
The men, aged 22, 30 and 40, were arrested in north London under anti-terrorism legislation after the fire on Saturday morning at Gibson Square's offices. Police were also searching four addresses in east London.

Britain's domestic Press Association news agency said some residents, whom it did not identify, reported that the incident may have involved a petrol bomb being pushed through the firm's letterbox.

Gibson Square is responsible for the publication of "The Jewel of Medina" -- a fictional account of the Prophet's relationship with his youngest bride Aisha -- by American author Sherry Jones.

Random House announced last month it had cancelled publication of the book in the United States because of fears of violence.

"The Jewel of Medina" was re-released in Serbia earlier this month after being withdrawn in August under pressure from Islamic leaders.

Martin Rynja, publishing director at Gibson Square, earlier this month defended the decision to publish the book, saying that in "an open society there has to be open access to literary works, regardless of fear."

"As an independent publishing company, we feel strongly that we should not be afraid of the consequences of debate," he added.

Gibson Square could not be immediately contacted for comment on Saturday's fire and subsequent arrests.

[ShimonG]

Sharia Implementation in pakisatan

I knew tht four male witnesses are required by a woman to prove rape. Now, we find out that they cant be witnesses at all. Such are the mysterious ways of allah.:rofl:

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Business/29-Sep-2008/Pakistani-banks-refuse-female-witnesses

Pakistani banks refuse female witnesses
submitted 21 hours 47 minutes ago
Despite the face that State Bank of Paksitan has a lady governor, the witnesses of women are not acceptable in Pakistani banks. A bank memo in Islamabad says that women are not authorized to sign the banks’ documents according to the instructions of court and government. According to reports, in order to acquire credit with exchange of Defence Saving Certificate, undertaking is taken from two men while women’s signatures are rejected.A bank officer told that it is in practice since last 20 years and female witnesses are not accepted on various documents. It clearly shows that gender bias exists even at the state level.

[andak01]

Sharia Implementation in pakisatan

I knew tht four male witnesses are required by a woman to prove rape.

You knew wrong. That is not the case with rape, nor is the travesty that passes for Sharia in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

In one hadith, Sayyidna Wail bin Hajr, Radi-Allahu anhu, narrates that during the time of the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, a woman had gone out to offer the prayer. On the way a man overcame and raped her. The woman cried for help and the man ran away. Thereafter the man admitted that he had raped her. The Messenger of Allah, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, then inflicted the hadd on the man only, and not on the woman.

Imam Tirmidhi related this Hadith in his Jami’ with two different chains of transmission, and he declared the second chain of transmission as reliable. (Jami Tirmidhi, Kitabul Hudood, Bab 22, Hadith Number 1453, 1454)
Similarly, in Sahih Bukhari there is a hadith according to which a slave had raped a slave-girl. Sayyidina Umar, Radi-Allahu anhu, then imposed the hadd on the slave, but not on the slave-girl. (See Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Ikrah, Bab 6)

It is hence firmly established from the Holy Qur'an, the Sunnah, and the decisions of the rightly guided caliphs, Radi-Allahu anhum, that the same punishment is to be awarded for both adultery and rape and that in the case of rape, only the man is punished. It is by no means correct to say that the hadd mentioned in the Holy Qur'an and in the Ahadith applies only to adultery.

What is the rationale for removing the Shariah punishment for rape? The authors argue that the Hudood Ordinance treated a victim of rape who was unable to produce four witnesses as a criminal herself; she was jailed for allegedly having committed adultery. This claim is simply false.

I myself had been directly hearing cases registered under Hudood Ordinance, first as a Judge of Federal Shariah Court and then for seventeen years as a member of Shariah Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court. In this long tenure, not once did I come across a case in which a rape victim was awarded punishment simply because she was unable to present four witnesses.

In fact it was not possible to do so. First, according to the Hudood Ordinance, the condition of four witnesses only applied to enforcing the hadd for rape. Clause 10(3), which awarded the ta’zeer punishment, did not have this requirement; the crime could be proven through one witness, medical reports, and chemical analysis report. Consequently most rape criminals were awarded punishment as per this clause.

Further, a woman claiming rape could not be punished under Qazf (false accusation of zina) since Exemption 2 in Qazf Ordinance Clause 3 clearly stated that if someone approaches the legal authorities with a rape complaint, she could not be punished in case she was unable to present four witnesses.

The only possibility was that the woman could be awarded punishment for committing adultery with her own free will. Obviously, if the available evidence did prove her guilt, punishing her was the just course of action. However, such cases were rare, since usually there was insufficient evidence to prove that the woman was lying; in 99% of the cases the court was neither convinced that the man had compelled the woman, nor could it prove her guilt and so she was given the benefit of doubt and set free.
This can be verified very easily by analyzing the cases executed under the Hudood Ordinance in the last 27 years. In fact, there was an independent study conducted by Charles Kennedy, an American professor. He surveyed all the data related to the Hudood Ordinance cases and presented the results in the form of a report, which was published in 1991. The report states:
Women fearing conviction under Section 10(2) frequently bring charges of rape under 10(3) against their alleged partners. The FSC finding no circumstantial evidence to support the latter charge, convict the male accused under section 10(2)….the woman is exonerated of any wrongdoing due to reasonable doubt rule. (Charles Kennedy: “Islamic Legal Reform and The Status of Women in Pakistan”, Oxford Journal of Islamic Studies 2:1 (1991) page 50)
http://www.albalagh.net/women/0096.shtml

[ShimonG]

As in the past, these lies fool no one. Well, i am off to breast-feed!! Heh heh:rofl:

[ShimonG]

More proof of "peaceful" islam. Beginning of the end!!


http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/FORCED-JOB-ALCOHOL-BELIEFS/article-357352-detail/article.html

A MUSLIM from Derby is suing supermarket giant Tesco for religious discrimination because he was asked to handle crates of alcohol against his beliefs.
Mohammed Ahmed, of Upper Dale Road, Normanton, also accused Tesco of victimisation and harassment during a three-day employment tribunal.
Mr Ahmed was employed as a warehouse operative, which included driving fork-lift trucks, at the firm's Lichfield warehouse in September last year.
The 32-year-old told the tribunal he was not made aware he would be required to handle alcohol when he started the job, a claim denied by Tesco.
Mr Ahmed refused to touch alcohol because it was against his religious principles as a Muslim, he said, and asked to be found other work................

[ShimonG]

Islam terror sympathizing moslems object to civilized world's best friend. Jeez, is there no end to the depravity of islam?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4276489.ece

Police sniffer dogs will have to wear bootees when searching the homes of Muslims so as not to cause offence................

[ShimonG]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2-Wun2dIg

Welcome to saudi britain

[Mediocrates]

Not sharia per se but the Liberation Party in the UK is now calling for nuclear war in Pakistan against British and American troops there.

http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/press-centre/press-release/it-s-america-not-pakistan-who-is-not-in-a-position-to-fight-an-open-war-with-pakistan.html

[andak01]

More proof of "peaceful" islam. Beginning of the end!!

Wow! Add another out of work Muslim as proof that Muslims are violently forcing UK into a Shariah state. What have we got so far? Some medical students that won't pass their exams, this out of work guy who won't win his case, women who can't get a meeting with Jack Straw, a non-Muslim teacher who refused to teach the Holocaust and was suspended... This is great proof that Muslims are taking over, NOT! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[ShimonG]

I hope the Brits realize the sheer evil they are letting in before it is too late.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3129625/Mother-is-denied-pill-by-Muslim-pharmacist.html

Mother is denied pill by Muslim pharmacist
A woman was refused the "morning-after pill" by a supermarket's duty pharmacist because it was against his religious beliefs.

Ruth Johnson, 33, who has two children, including a month-old baby, had not been using her usual method of contraception with her fiancée.

She went to the Tesco dispensary in Hewitts Circus, Cleethorpes, Lincs, and asked an as assistant for the pill Levanelle.

Miss Johnson was told it could only be dispensed by the locum pharmacist who was called to speak with her.

She said: "He came out from behind a screen and told me that he would not be allowing me to buy the pill from him because he had a right to refuse to sell it on the basis of his personal beliefs.

"The pharmacist was of Asian origin so I asked him if it was because of his religion and he replied 'Yes'."

Miss Johnson, from Cleethorpes, was left feeling ashamed and worried and complained to the store manager who told her they couldn't force the pharmacist to sell the product.

She said: "I asked him if a Jewish or Muslim checkout operator could refuse to sell pork or alcohol or if a Jehovah's Witness could refuse to sell birthday and Christmas cards."

Her concern is that the policy could deter teenage girls from seeking the morning-after pill.

"I appreciate we live in a multi-cultural society but what gives him the right to impose his beliefs onto me?" she added. (ShimonG: But that is precisely what islam is! Duh!)

A Tesco spokesman said the pharmacist was acting within his rights to refuse to sell the pill and the customer was advised where else she could buy the product.

He said: "We do apologise to Miss Johnson for the inconvenience caused. However, the Royal Pharmaceutical Society's code of ethics allows pharmacists the right to refuse."

The Society said its code of ethics and standards is adopted by all healthcare bodies.

Its does not require a pharmacist to provide a service that is contrary to their religious or moral beliefs but any attempt by a pharmacist to impose their beliefs on a customer seeking professional help without offering an alternative could form the basis of a professional misconduct complaint.

Two years ago Jo-Ann Thomas, a school crossing patrolwoman with two children, faced a similar situation in Thurcroft, Rotherham, South Yorkshire.

She was told by a Muslim pharmacist at Lloyds Pharmacy near her home that she should go to her doctor for supplies even though the item was in stock.

She said at the time: "I'm a 37 year old woman, not a daft girl who doesn't know what she's doing. It's my choice not his. It's his religion not mine. He's a dispensing chemist and his job is to dispense drugs."

[dayag]

I hope the Brits realize the sheer evil they are letting in before it is too late.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3129625/Mother-is-denied-pill-by-Muslim-pharmacist.html

Mother is denied pill by Muslim pharmacist
A woman was refused the "morning-after pill" by a supermarket's duty pharmacist because it was against his religious beliefs.

Ruth Johnson, 33, who has two children, including a month-old baby, had not been using her usual method of contraception with her fiancée.

She went to the Tesco dispensary in Hewitts Circus, Cleethorpes, Lincs, and asked an as assistant for the pill Levanelle.

Miss Johnson was told it could only be dispensed by the locum pharmacist who was called to speak with her.

She said: "He came out from behind a screen and told me that he would not be allowing me to buy the pill from him because he had a right to refuse to sell it on the basis of his personal beliefs.

"The pharmacist was of Asian origin so I asked him if it was because of his religion and he replied 'Yes'."

Miss Johnson, from Cleethorpes, was left feeling ashamed and worried and complained to the store manager who told her they couldn't force the pharmacist to sell the product.

She said: "I asked him if a Jewish or Muslim checkout operator could refuse to sell pork or alcohol or if a Jehovah's Witness could refuse to sell birthday and Christmas cards."

Her concern is that the policy could deter teenage girls from seeking the morning-after pill.

"I appreciate we live in a multi-cultural society but what gives him the right to impose his beliefs onto me?" she added. (ShimonG: But that is precisely what islam is! Duh!)

A Tesco spokesman said the pharmacist was acting within his rights to refuse to sell the pill and the customer was advised where else she could buy the product.

He said: "We do apologise to Miss Johnson for the inconvenience caused. However, the Royal Pharmaceutical Society's code of ethics allows pharmacists the right to refuse."

The Society said its code of ethics and standards is adopted by all healthcare bodies.

Its does not require a pharmacist to provide a service that is contrary to their religious or moral beliefs but any attempt by a pharmacist to impose their beliefs on a customer seeking professional help without offering an alternative could form the basis of a professional misconduct complaint.

Two years ago Jo-Ann Thomas, a school crossing patrolwoman with two children, faced a similar situation in Thurcroft, Rotherham, South Yorkshire.

She was told by a Muslim pharmacist at Lloyds Pharmacy near her home that she should go to her doctor for supplies even though the item was in stock.

She said at the time: "I'm a 37 year old woman, not a daft girl who doesn't know what she's doing. It's my choice not his. It's his religion not mine. He's a dispensing chemist and his job is to dispense drugs."

I hope this kind of nonsense stops in America as well:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/20614.php

[andak01]

I hope this kind of nonsense stops in America as well:


It's not non-sense. Nonsense would be if a Muslim tried to refuse prescribing drugs and WASN'T censured or fined or fired. But in this case, we have someone who attempts to do something which they should get fired or at least censured for doing and...the judge recommends possible suspension of his license and at minimum he pay all court fees and attend a class. The system works, and I'd expect it to work the same way if a Christian pro-life pharmacist attempted the same thing. It may have already happened an nobody reported it.

[Mediocrates]

Legally, in the US the only possible penalty would be to withdraw eligibility from any provider who receives Federal funding in the form of Medicare/Medicaid. Other than that there's nothing anyone can compel them to do.

[dayag]

It's not non-sense. Nonsense would be if a Muslim tried to refuse prescribing drugs and WASN'T censured or fined or fired. But in this case, we have someone who attempts to do something which they should get fired or at least censured for doing and...the judge recommends possible suspension of his license and at minimum he pay all court fees and attend a class. The system works, and I'd expect it to work the same way if a Christian pro-life pharmacist attempted the same thing. It may have already happened an nobody reported it.

The nonsense I was referring to is a druggist refusing to fill a legal prescription in the first place. If they worked for me, they would be out on their ear.

[bararallu]

Tesco should loose their clients (or gain all the fundamentalists).

Every pharmacist should be made to sign a company contract to dispense everything that the company carries or rather sources. Otherwise they should via breach of contract be thrown out (and possibly sued to boot).

[ShimonG]

Yet another manifestation of "peaceful" islam

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008/09/28/story_28-9-2008_pg7_39

3 held in Britain as ‘blasphemous’ book publisher set ablaze

LONDON: British police arrested three men on Saturday in connection with a fire at the offices of the publisher of a blasphemous book. The men, aged 22, 30 and 40, were arrested in north London under anti-terrorism legislation after the fire on Saturday morning at Gibson Square’s offices. Police were also searching four addresses in east London. Britain’s domestic Press Association news agency said some residents, whom it did not identify, reported that the incident may have involved a petrol bomb being pushed through the firm’s letterbox. Gibson Square is responsible for the publication of ‘The Jewel of Medina’ by American author Sherry Jones. Random House announced last month it had cancelled publication of the book in the United States because of fears of violence. ‘The Jewel of Medina’ was re-released in Serbia earlier this month after being withdrawn in August under pressure from Islamic leaders. Gibson Square could not be immediately contacted for comment on Saturday’s fire and subsequent arrests. The firm is known for having published other controversial books such as ‘Blowing Up Russia’ by former KGB agent turned Kremlin critic Alexander Litvinenko. afp

[andak01]

The system works, and I'd expect it to work the same way if a Christian pro-life pharmacist attempted the same thing. It may have already happened an nobody reported it.

Looks like I was wrong. When a Muslim does it, it's "the beginning of the end"! When a Christian does it, it's their moral right. How about that?

Arkansas and South Dakota have laws protecting the pharmacist in these situations. Other states are considering the law, but none have passed yet. A law such as this could stop millions of prescription drugs from being filled. The pharmacist should not be making moral decisions for other people. If the job is a conscious problem, then that person should find another field.

The American Pharmacists Association supports a pharmacist's right to morally make decisions if there is something they feel uncomfortable with, but they must also provide another way for the patient to access the legal drug. For small towns though, this could mean a three-hour drive to the nearest birth-control carrying pharmacy.

http://www.csulb.edu/~d49er/archives/2004/summer/opinion/volLIVno132-pharmacists.shtml

This law holds true in UK as well, and it wasn't passed by some Muslim cabal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4649425.stm

[AlanSilver]

This is my first post. So good day to you all.....

I am a British Jew, living in London. I for one am very concerned with the comments made by these so called Cleric's etc. in some parts of London you could be in Iran, Saudi etc. We have the Beth Din which rules on Jewish disputes, but isnt above the law of the land. However in a recent poll a growing number of Muslims want Britain to adopt Sharia Law and impose this on the masses.

Everyday there are stories of how offended Muslims are at various things such as the man who is sueing Tesco's for making him move Beer, Wine etc.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23561186-details/Muslim+sues+Tesco+over+alcohol/article.do

:stick:

[bararallu]

This is my first post. So good day to you all.....

I am a British Jew, living in London. I for one am very concerned with the comments made by these so called Cleric's etc. in some parts of London you could be in Iran, Saudi etc. We have the Beth Din which rules on Jewish disputes, but isnt above the law of the land. However in a recent poll a growing number of Muslims want Britain to adopt Sharia Law and impose this on the masses.

Everyday there are stories of how offended Muslims are at various things such as the man who is sueing Tesco's for making him move Beer, Wine etc.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23561186-details/Muslim+sues+Tesco+over+alcohol/article.do

:stick:

Alan,

Do you believe that when (rather than if) there is a racial reaction to all this, in the form of resurgent BNP or otherwise, there will be a reaction across the board against all "foreigners" [including Jews]; as we see developments in on the continent? Or will the reaction be more towards enforced secularism at the cost of multiculturalism, ala Turkey/ France?

Also, what is the general consensus, if there is any, among British Jews in terms of long term Jewish stability in the UK? I lived in the UK for a number of years, albeit in the 90's before a lot of this was in the open, and I didn't feel there was a lot of worry on the subject from my Jewish acquaintances, has that changed?

[AlanSilver]

Alan,

Do you believe that when (rather than if) there is a racial reaction to all this, in the form of resurgent BNP or otherwise, there will be a reaction across the board against all "foreigners" [including Jews]; as we see developments in on the continent? Or will the reaction be more towards enforced secularism at the cost of multiculturalism, ala Turkey/ France?

Also, what is the general consensus, if there is any, among British Jews in terms of long term Jewish stability in the UK? I lived in the UK for a number of years, albeit in the 90's before a lot of this was in the open, and I didn't feel there was a lot of worry on the subject from my Jewish acquaintances, has that changed?

Bararallu,

In Britain at the moment anyway there is a general feeling that the Muslims are nothing but trouble. Also that most of other 'Foreigners' actaully contribute to society in a positive manner. Any backlash at the moment anyway would be directed at the Muslim Community, where it would lead is anyones guess. I also think there is a fear in the UK that we are being taken over slowly. People see a lot of double standards but I also think that is made worse by the media. Rememeber the 7/7 bombers were British and born here.

As for the Jewish community, well the UK is much more tolorent than most other European countries. So at the moment there is no real threat other than the spill over from the what is seen on millions of muslim tv screens in the middle east. 2 things to remember:
1) most muslims watch Al-Jazeera and as such think every jew is scum slightly below everybody else!!
2) remember my enemys, enemy is my friend. Hence attacks on Jews by the far right have declined, where as most attacks on jews are now by muslims.
having said all that the Jewish community knows better than most the horrors all this can bring.

it isnt all bad in the UK, on the whole people just get on with their lives and thankfully are allowed to practise there relegion in peace and security.

:cool:

[Steven]

Bararallu,

In Britain at the moment anyway there is a general feeling that the Muslims are nothing but trouble. Also that most of other 'Foreigners' actaully contribute to society in a positive manner.



:cool:

That is good, as Muslims are causing the same problems across the world.

Their demands are never ending and they have no concern for anyone else's beliefs.

The system does not work fine as Muslims are constantly exploiting it. But andak wants us to believe different.

[Steven]

Update on the issue.

Saturday, October 25, 2008
UK:Govt Gives Stamp of Approval to Chain of Sharia Courts

The government of the UK has given its stamp of approval by allowing sharia courts to deal with such matters as divorce and family disputes. The politically correct government obviously did not listen when a group of ex-Muslims came out and warned the country about sharia law.

For the rest....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/10/ukgovt-gives-stamp-of-approval-to-chain.html

[Rob]

Update on the issue.

Saturday, October 25, 2008
UK:Govt Gives Stamp of Approval to Chain of Sharia Courts

The government of the UK has given its stamp of approval by allowing sharia courts to deal with such matters as divorce and family disputes. The politically correct government obviously did not listen when a group of ex-Muslims came out and warned the country about sharia law.

For the rest....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/10/ukgovt-gives-stamp-of-approval-to-chain.html

So, how does this work if it is contrary to UK law? Does sharia take precedence now?

[Steven]

So, how does this work if it is contrary to UK law? Does sharia take precedence now?

Well for now the rulings have to fall within UK law. But Muslims who want Sharia will not stop pushing and the courts have already started trying criminal cases.

Pandora's Box has been opened.

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/09/sharia-courts-quickly-spread-through-uk.html

What will happen is that eventually when the Muslims feel that they have enough power there, they will claim the UK as an Islamic state, as Sharia is for all.

[ShimonG]

An Oldie but Goldie from FrontPageMag

What Islam Isn't
By Dr. Peter Hammond
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, April 21, 2008

The following is adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. – Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.

[ShimonG]

Peaceful islam's peaceful moslems contributing peacefully to peace in british prisons

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20081106/882/twl-law-unto-themselves-islamic-gangs-cr.html

ANI
Thu, Nov 6 05:35 PM
'Law unto themselves' Islamic gangs create no-go areas for British jail officers

London, Nov 6 (ANI): Muslim gangs inside Whitemoor Jail have created no-go areas for British jail officers and are policing the areas themselves.

The Daily Star quoted guards as claiming that the Islamic mobs are "a law unto themselves," adding that the prison staff have passed a vote of no confidence in their governor.

MP Malcolm Moss, 65, said Whitemoor Prison, Cambridgeshire, was descending into turmoil. He added that staff blamed Governor Steve Rodford for pandering to political correctness and making the Muslims untouchable.

The Conservative MP warned that the unrest had created a "tense" atmosphere not seen since the 1990s when the IRA maintained an inner sanctum inside the maximum-security prison.

"Serious problems will arise if there is dissatisfaction among staff at top security prisons, as is currently the case at Whitemoor. There are no-go sections policed by Muslim inmates, not staff. In the 1990s officers couldn't do their jobs properly and prisoners did what they like. We may be operating a similar situation," he said.

A third of the 458 inmates at Whitemoor are Muslims. Moss claimed that they were segregated from other prisoners.

In May an internal review of the jail by the Prison Service's Directorate of High Security warned staffs believe that a "serious incident is imminent" as several wings had become dominated by Muslim prisoners.

Moss is waiting for Government answers to questions he has posed about the vote of no confidence and segregation of Muslim inmates at Whitemoor.

Earlier, Anne Owers, the chief inspector of prisons, has urged the prison service to do more to provide staff throughout the jail system but particularly in the top security prisons with help to deal with increasing Muslim numbers.

The number of Muslim prisoners in jails doubled in the ten years to 2006 to reach 8,243 - 11 per cent of the total prison population. (ANI)

[Steven]

Peaceful islam's peaceful moslems contributing peacefully to peace in british prisons

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20081106/882/twl-law-unto-themselves-islamic-gangs-cr.html

ANI
Thu, Nov 6 05:35 PM
'Law unto themselves' Islamic gangs create no-go areas for British jail officers

London, Nov 6 (ANI): Muslim gangs inside Whitemoor Jail have created no-go areas for British jail officers and are policing the areas themselves.

The Daily Star quoted guards as claiming that the Islamic mobs are "a law unto themselves," adding that the prison staff have passed a vote of no confidence in their governor.

MP Malcolm Moss, 65, said Whitemoor Prison, Cambridgeshire, was descending into turmoil. He added that staff blamed Governor Steve Rodford for pandering to political correctness and making the Muslims untouchable.

The Conservative MP warned that the unrest had created a "tense" atmosphere not seen since the 1990s when the IRA maintained an inner sanctum inside the maximum-security prison.

"Serious problems will arise if there is dissatisfaction among staff at top security prisons, as is currently the case at Whitemoor. There are no-go sections policed by Muslim inmates, not staff. In the 1990s officers couldn't do their jobs properly and prisoners did what they like. We may be operating a similar situation," he said.

A third of the 458 inmates at Whitemoor are Muslims. Moss claimed that they were segregated from other prisoners.

In May an internal review of the jail by the Prison Service's Directorate of High Security warned staffs believe that a "serious incident is imminent" as several wings had become dominated by Muslim prisoners.

Moss is waiting for Government answers to questions he has posed about the vote of no confidence and segregation of Muslim inmates at Whitemoor.

Earlier, Anne Owers, the chief inspector of prisons, has urged the prison service to do more to provide staff throughout the jail system but particularly in the top security prisons with help to deal with increasing Muslim numbers.

The number of Muslim prisoners in jails doubled in the ten years to 2006 to reach 8,243 - 11 per cent of the total prison population. (ANI)

So now there are no go zones in and out of the UK prisons.

[Steven]

Muslim get the Last Laugh at Swift Plant


This appears to be what is the final follow up on the story of the Muslims at Swift Plant who demanded extra break times to pray for the month of Ramadan. After a back and forth struggle which saw about 100 Muslims being fired, Swift will be paying the Muslims hundreds of thousands of dollars. They were even fined for having Muslims sign a contract saying that they would be willing to handle pork, which is considered haraam in Islam or forbidden. So now we see that employers cannot even defend themselves in advance by asking Muslims if they will handle pork. For more on the hazards of hiring Muslims go here.



Minnesota Plant That Fired Muslims for Taking Prayer Breaks Will Pay $365,000
Tuesday, November 11, 2008

MINNEAPOLIS — Under a settlement to a federal lawsuit, up to 100 Somali Muslims who are current or former workers at Gold'n Plump Inc. will receive a total of $365,000.

The settlement was filed in Minneapolis on Friday. It sprang from allegations of religious discrimination at the company's chicken processing plants in Cold Spring and Arcadia, Wis.

The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission filed lawsuits against St. Cloud-based Gold'n Plump and the Work Connection Inc., an employment agency in St. Paul, which handled some hiring for the plant.

Under the settlement, Gold'n Plump agreed to pay $215,000 to workers who were terminated for taking prayer breaks.

The Work Connection will pay $150,000 to workers who were asked to sign a form acknowledging that they might be required to handle pork, which many Muslims consider unclean.

The EEOC estimates that 40 to 100 workers will qualify for the payments.

For sources....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/11/muslim-get-last-laugh-at-swift-plant.html

[Steven]

UK:Catholic Girl Killed by a Muslim for Dating a Muslim

This is a story that we would normally expect from an Islamic country, but the reality is that this sick crime was committed in the United Kingdom. As a teenage Catholic girl who was dating a Muslim boy was killed by her boyfriend's Iraqi Muslim roommate. The roommate had disapproved of his Muslim friend dating a non-Muslim. The Islamic coward strangled her from behind and then stabbed her lifeless body in the chest and stomach and if that was not enough he then slit her throat. Isn't it time that the UK end all Muslim immigration?


Muslim killed Catholic girl in love with flatmate

Lidia Motylska
Date: 12 November 2008
By Jeni Harvey
A TEENAGER was brutally murdered by her boyfriend's Muslim flatmate because he did not approve of him going out with a Catholic.


Lidia Motylska, 19, was strangled in an alleyway in Leeds by Iraqi immigrant Abobakir Jabari who objected to his Kurdish flatmate's relationship with her.

Yesterday Jabari, 39, who was given British citizenship in 2005, pleaded guilty at Sheffield Crown Court to murdering the petite Polish teenager.

The court heard he garrotted her from behind, using the cord from his tracksuit bottoms, before inflicting "gratuitous" wounds on her lifeless body. He stabbed her repeatedly in the chest and stomach and slit her throat.

Sentencing Jabari to life imprisonment with a minimum tariff of 19-and-a-half years, Mr Justice McKinnon said the murder involved an exceptional degree of violence.

"There is a suspicion that you lured this young woman to her death and marked your disapproval of her and her relationship by gratuitous violence upon her," he said.

The court heard that Jabari grew up in Iraq and was conscripted to the Iraqi army but then deserted. He became involved with the Communist party and later helped opponents of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime flee to Syria.

He came to England in 1999 with his then wife, but they separated in 2003 and he went on to gain British citizenship.

In July 2004 he began working at Symphony Kitchens in Gelderd Lane, Leeds.

Through his work, he met both Miss Motylska and Ajeen Jabaridia, a fellow Kurdish Iraqi who moved in with him at a flat in Oatland Heights in the Little London area of the city.

But he was to become increasingly hostile when the pair became romantically involved.

Prosecuting, Simon Myerson QC said: "He disliked the fact that his Kurdish friend was going out with a Polish Catholic.

"He did not like Lidia to sleep at their flat. He disapproved of Lidia's behaviour in public and thought it seemed sexually provocative."

He went on: "He told her that Ajeen should not be seeing her because she was a Polish and Catholic girl."

Miss Motylska, who lived with her mother Renata in Beeston, Leeds, thought she might be pregnant with Mr Jabaridia's child, the court heard, though this turned out not to be the case.

On the evening of the murder in October last year, she had arranged to meet Jabari and got off a bus near his home at 6.45pm.

Ten minutes later, two passers-by called 999, reporting that they had seen a woman on the ground in an alleyway in Lincoln Green, with a man sitting over her "grunting" and holding her around the neck.

When police arrived at 7pm, the teenager was dead, with deep stab wounds and her throat slit "from ear to ear".

The judge said one explanation for the slash injuries to her abdomen could have been an "expression of disapproval at her pregnancy and her relationship".

Immediately after the attack, Jabari set about creating an alibi by inviting friends to his flat to watch Arsenal play Slavia Prague in a Champions League football match.

A keen Arsenal fan, Mr Jabaridia had tried to telephone his girlfriend each time the team scored, but got no reply.

He and Miss Motylska's mother reported the teenager missing the next day.

After the sentencing, Det Supt Bill Shackleton from West Yorkshire Police said: "This was a brutal and calculated murder."

The victim's family were too upset to speak.

For the source....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/11/ukcatholic-girl-killed-for-dating.html

[andak01]

While he's in prison, he can read up on the Islamic permission for Muslim men to marry Christian women. There are many who have been happily married for years in such relationships.

Do you have the original source for the article, or are you going to continue spamming us with your website?

[Steven]

While he's in prison, he can read up on the Islamic permission for Muslim men to marry Christian women. There are many who have been happily married for years in such relationships.

Do you have the original source for the article, or are you going to continue spamming us with your website?

1.You left out the part where the baby will he raised as a Muslim and how Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men. This is not an isolated incident by Muslims.

2.I put up the whole article so it does not bring people to my site. Med said it is fine that I do it this way and you are not a mod here anymore. So mind your business.

[ShimonG]

the filth of islam continues unchecked in the United AlQaedom. The resultant dhimmitude at its finest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1091218/Muslim-prayer-rooms-opened-Catholic-schools-say-church-leaders.html

Muslim prayer rooms should be opened in Catholic schools, say church leaders
By Simon Caldwell
Last updated at 7:48 PM on 02nd December 2008

Comments (15)
Add to My Stories


Muslim prayer rooms should be opened in every Roman Catholic school, church leaders have said.


The Catholic bishops of England and Wales also want facilities in schools for Islamic pre-prayer washing rituals.


The demands go way beyond legal requirements on catering for religious minorities.


But the bishops - who acknowledge 30 per cent of pupils at their schools hold a non-Christian faith - want to answer critics who say religious schools sow division.


The recommendations were made in a document, Catholic Schools, Children of Other Faiths and Community Cohesion.

'If practicable, a room (or rooms) might be made available for the use of pupils and staff from other faiths for prayer,' the bishops said.

'Existing toilet facilities might be adapted to accommodate individual ritual cleansing which is sometimes part of religious lifestyle and worship.


'If such space is not available on a permanent or regular basis, extra efforts might be made to address such need for major religious festivals.'


The Islamic cleansing ritual, called 'Wudhu', is carried out by Muslims before they pray.

Islam teaches that Muslims are unfit for prayer if they have not performed Wudhu after breaking wind or using the toilet.

Wudhu involves washing the face, hands, arms and feet three times each, gargling the mouth three times and washing the neck and inside the nose and ears. Some Muslims also wash their private parts.

Catholic schools would need to install bidets, foot spas and hoses to facilitate such extensive cleansing rituals, Muslims say.

Daphne McLeod, a former Catholic head teacher from south London, said it would be 'terribly expensive' for the country's 2,300 Catholic primary and secondary schools to provide ritual cleansing facilities.

She said: 'If Muslim parents choose a Catholic school then they accept that it is going to be a Catholic school and there will not be facilities for ritual cleansing and prayer rooms.

'They do their ritual cleansing before they go to a mosque, but they are not going to a mosque.

'I don't think the bishops should go looking for problems. Where will it stop?'

But Majid Khatme, a Muslim who sent his children to a London Catholic school, said he was delighted by the gesture.

'It is very kind of the bishops if they give this facility for Muslims to pray,' he said.

'I would love to send a letter of thanks to the bishops, really. If they do this all Muslims in Britain will be thankful to the Catholic Church to have facilities to pray. It is very, very encouraging.'


The recommendations have been approved by Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Birmingham and the favourite to succeed Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor as Catholic primate.


But it would be up to governing bodies of each school to decide whether to act on the guidance.

[varian]

All those young kids with their bums in the air around priests ... hmmm. Something just doesn't sound right, now does it??? :rolleyes:

[andak01]

The Muslims have the right to ask for anything they want. They could ask for crescents atop all the cathedrals. And anyone they ask has the right to accept or to say no.

I have made wudhu in a sink many times. A child might not be able to do that, but for them a lower level sink or simply a drain in the floor and a twenty dollar wooden bench should do.

Accomodating people isn't always looked upon as a social ill. How would you take it if the Catholics complained about the Jews taking over because someone choses to hang a mezuzah on his office door or requests kosher food. Doesn't creating a new menu with new utensils and pots also cost lots of money?

Kosher meals at UCLA
http://www.jewishjournal.com/education/article/ucla_dining_halls_open_doors_to_kosher_meals_20071 102/ (http://www.jewishjournal.com/education/article/ucla_dining_halls_open_doors_to_kosher_meals_20071 102/)

Kosher at CalTech
http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc58.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc58.htm)

While Jews and Christians share connections beyond the Old Testament, no one at St. Mary's College in Moraga suspected that a Jewish dean would invigorate spiritual life there.

Certainly not just any Jewish dean would attend Catholic Masses, promote interfaith Jewish observances and hang a mezuzah on his office door at a Catholic campus. But Edwin M. Epstein would.
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6201/edition_id/115/format/html/displaystory.html (http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6201/edition_id/115/format/html/displaystory.html)

[Steven]

The Muslims have the right to ask for anything they want. They could ask for crescents atop all the cathedrals. And anyone they ask has the right to accept or to say no.

I have made wudhu in a sink many times. A child might not be able to do that, but for them a lower level sink or simply a drain in the floor and a twenty dollar wooden bench should do.

Accomodating people isn't always looked upon as a social ill. How would you take it if the Catholics complained about the Jews taking over because someone choses to hang a mezuzah on his office door or requests kosher food. Doesn't creating a new menu with new utensils and pots also cost lots of money?

Kosher meals at UCLA
http://www.jewishjournal.com/education/article/ucla_dining_halls_open_doors_to_kosher_meals_20071 102/ (http://www.jewishjournal.com/education/article/ucla_dining_halls_open_doors_to_kosher_meals_20071 102/)

Kosher at CalTech
http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc58.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc58.htm)

While Jews and Christians share connections beyond the Old Testament, no one at St. Mary's College in Moraga suspected that a Jewish dean would invigorate spiritual life there.

Certainly not just any Jewish dean would attend Catholic Masses, promote interfaith Jewish observances and hang a mezuzah on his office door at a Catholic campus. But Edwin M. Epstein would.
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6201/edition_id/115/format/html/displaystory.html (http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6201/edition_id/115/format/html/displaystory.html)

You washed your feet in a public sink?

Jews and Christians are not threatening the world. Your all is equal attempt does not cut it. Catering to a imposing backward ideology that respects nothing is clearly a social ill.

[Steven]

Top UK Islamic Cleric Brands Christmas as Evil


Fiery UK Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary who had recently called for war within the UK, has now come out against the holiday of Christmas. He has stated that those celebrating Christmas will burn in hell as Christmas contradicts Islam. I would like to thank this man for showing us the true face of Islam. Because apparently anything that is fun or anything that non-Muslims do is against Islam.



Muslim lawyer Anjem Choudary brands Christmas 'evil'
Muslim preacher Anjem Choudary has branded Christmas "evil" in a sermon posted on the internet.

By Murray Wardrop
Last Updated: 12:39PM GMT 10 Dec 2008
The lawyer, who recently praised the Mumbai terror attacks, urged all Muslims to reject traditional Christmas celebrations, claiming that they are forbidden by Allah.
The 41-year-old shocked Christians and even those of his own faith by branding yuletide festivities as "the pathway to hellfire".

Choudary, who is chairman of the Society of Muslim Lawyers, ruled out all celebrations, including having a Christmas tree, decorating the house or eating turkey.

In the sermon posted on an Islamic website, he said: "In the world today many Muslims, especially those residing in western countries, are exposed to the evil celebration Christmas.

"Many take part in the festival celebrations by having Christmas turkey dinners.
"Decorating the house, purchasing Christmas trees or having Christmas turkey meals are completely prohibited by Allah.

"Many still practise this corrupt celebration as a remembrance of the birth of Jesus.
"How can a Muslim possibly approve or participate in such a practice that bases itself on the notion Allah has an offspring?

"The very concept of Christmas contradicts and conflicts with the foundation of Islam.

"Every Muslim has a responsibility to protect his family from the misguidance of Christmas, because its observance will lead to hellfire. Protect your Paradise from being taken away – protect yourself and your family from Christmas."

Choudary is Principal Lecturer at the London School of Shari'ah and a follower of the Islamist militant leader Omar Bakri Mohammed.

Earlier this year, he led a meeting at the heart of the area where the liquid bombers lived, which warned of a British September 11.

Sources....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/12/top-uk-cleric-brands-christmas-as-evil.html

[Kenneth]

Tsk tsk!! He's making a list, he's checking it twice, he's gonna find out who's naughty or nice.

Maybe Anjem is confused and meant to say Guy Fawkes Day is evil. Which it is. I see no fit reason to celebrate the deaths of those who would try deflate big government. Regardless, a 25,000 benefit per year appetite and a mouth that horrible renders no presents under the tree for you this Christmas Fiery UK Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary.

[ShimonG]

Top UK Islamic Cleric Brands Christmas as Evil


Fiery UK Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary who had recently called for war within the UK, has now come out against the holiday of Christmas. He has stated that those celebrating Christmas will burn in hell as Christmas contradicts Islam. I would like to thank this man for showing us the true face of Islam. Because apparently anything that is fun or anything that non-Muslims do is against Islam.



Muslim lawyer Anjem Choudary brands Christmas 'evil'
Muslim preacher Anjem Choudary has branded Christmas "evil" in a sermon posted on the internet.

By Murray Wardrop
Last Updated: 12:39PM GMT 10 Dec 2008
The lawyer, who recently praised the Mumbai terror attacks, urged all Muslims to reject traditional Christmas celebrations, claiming that they are forbidden by Allah.
The 41-year-old shocked Christians and even those of his own faith by branding yuletide festivities as "the pathway to hellfire".

Choudary, who is chairman of the Society of Muslim Lawyers, ruled out all celebrations, including having a Christmas tree, decorating the house or eating turkey.

In the sermon posted on an Islamic website, he said: "In the world today many Muslims, especially those residing in western countries, are exposed to the evil celebration Christmas.

"Many take part in the festival celebrations by having Christmas turkey dinners.
"Decorating the house, purchasing Christmas trees or having Christmas turkey meals are completely prohibited by Allah.

"Many still practise this corrupt celebration as a remembrance of the birth of Jesus.
"How can a Muslim possibly approve or participate in such a practice that bases itself on the notion Allah has an offspring?

"The very concept of Christmas contradicts and conflicts with the foundation of Islam.

"Every Muslim has a responsibility to protect his family from the misguidance of Christmas, because its observance will lead to hellfire. Protect your Paradise from being taken away – protect yourself and your family from Christmas."

Choudary is Principal Lecturer at the London School of Shari'ah and a follower of the Islamist militant leader Omar Bakri Mohammed.

Earlier this year, he led a meeting at the heart of the area where the liquid bombers lived, which warned of a British September 11.

Sources....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/12/top-uk-cleric-brands-christmas-as-evil.html

He is absolutely right and i applaud him for having the guts to call it like he sees it instead of relying on taqqiya to fool the kaffir. Better the pig you know than the one you dont.

[andak01]

He is absolutely right and i applaud him for having the guts to call it like he sees it instead of relying on taqqiya to fool the kaffir. Better the pig you know than the one you dont.

Good for you. I'm happy that you and Steven are so eager to support extremism in all its forms. It shows your up for what kind of people your are. Personally, I let me children go to secular Christmas celebrations. Jesus' (SAW) virgin birth is recorded in the Quran in Surah Mary and except for the fact that we don't celebrate birthdays, we'd probably have a holiday for his birthday. I'm always teasing my wife about the fact that the unIslamic holiday of Muhammad's (SAW) birthday is a holiday in Morocco.

It's obvious for all to see how self serving your joy at every manifestation of extremism is as well as your dismay at every instance of Muslim cooperation in the war against terrorism. When Muslims die fighting terrorism, you want to bury that as deep as possible and scorge their memories with the stain of calling them liars. You really believe you can whip the world into a such a frenzy of hatred that they will throw out the baby with the bathwater and kick all Muslims out of Western society, moderate or not.

[varian]

... When Muslims die fighting terrorism, you want to bury that as deep as possible and scorge their memories with the stain of calling them liars. You really believe you can whip the world into a such a frenzy of hatred that they will throw out the baby with the bathwater and kick all Muslims out of Western society, moderate or not.


You make a good point as far as it goes, but it is extremely difficult for non-Muslims to notice any real difference given the rising tide of violence that claims direct ties to the Islamic culture and world. In reality, any help can be additive and beneficial as long as the principals aren't doubles or sleepers. And, yes, a high level of skepticism continues to exist about many such exercises in cooperation because of past historical events, especially in the US where an increasing number of unindicted coconspirators are named as being involved in Federal cases that end in the convictions of the indicted named conspirators. Skepticism abounds due to cases like those. Somewhere a balance may possibly be found in the future, but it will take more verifiable cooperation which may take years or decades.

[andak01]

In reality, any help can be additive and beneficial as long as the principals aren't doubles or sleepers.

It would seem from reading this forum that even dying in a shootout with Al Qaida doesn't elliminate that doubt.

[andak01]

...where an increasing number of unindicted coconspirators are named...

Yes it's true, an increasing number of people are still unindicted. The more unindicted people there are and the less evidence there is to indict them, the worse the problem becomes!

[scattergood]

The Muslims have the right to ask for anything they want. They could ask for crescents atop all the cathedrals. And anyone they ask has the right to accept or to say no.

Would that this were universally true. Just asking to maintain your own church in Egypt can get you riots and a few deaths.


I have made wudhu in a sink many times. A child might not be able to do that, but for them a lower level sink or simply a drain in the floor and a twenty dollar wooden bench should do.


Good to know you are spreading germs, raising clean up costs, and endangering your fellow so you can wash your feet in a sink.


Accomodating people isn't always looked upon as a social ill. How would you take it if the Catholics complained about the Jews taking over because someone choses to hang a mezuzah on his office door or requests kosher food. Doesn't creating a new menu with new utensils and pots also cost lots of money?

Kosher meals at UCLA
http://www.jewishjournal.com/education/article/ucla_dining_halls_open_doors_to_kosher_meals_20071 102/ (http://www.jewishjournal.com/education/article/ucla_dining_halls_open_doors_to_kosher_meals_20071 102/)

Kosher at CalTech
http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc58.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/crc58.htm)

While Jews and Christians share connections beyond the Old Testament, no one at St. Mary's College in Moraga suspected that a Jewish dean would invigorate spiritual life there.

Certainly not just any Jewish dean would attend Catholic Masses, promote interfaith Jewish observances and hang a mezuzah on his office door at a Catholic campus. But Edwin M. Epstein would.
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6201/edition_id/115/format/html/displaystory.html (http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6201/edition_id/115/format/html/displaystory.html)


And if you had even bothered to read your OWN source, you would know how idiotic your statements are


However, the kosher meal plans don't come cheap. In order to get the Bruin Plus Supplemental meal plan, available for use at Covel Commons and Hedrick residential restaurants, students pay an additional $423 on top of their regular quarterly housing and meal plan fees, which can range from $9,207 to $14,837.



Hmmm. Also, Kosher food is not by definition nearly as exclusionary as special sinks for wudhu. Firstly many vegetarians may choose a milk kosher meal since it, by definition, is meatless. Secondly, there is wudhu sinks are ONLY for religious feet washing, are vastly more in the public space, and just imagine what would happen if somebody used the lower sink for any other reason but to wash the feet.

[ShimonG]

I have made wudhu in a sink many times.

:vomit:

[andak01]

OK, so you are disgusted if I use a sink and offended if I demand anything else. I could drive to a mosque everytime I pray, but the existence of the mosque is also something you find offensive. Short of shooting myself in the head, I'm not sure how to accomodate you.

PS, the feces that people expose themselves to prior to washing their hands in the sink is much dirtier and germier than my feet on bad day.

[Kenneth]

Time for some subtle yet effective gorilla marketing.. (http://www.paramountzone.com/arsefacesoap.htm)

[dayag]

:vomit:

Shimon, if feet washing bothers you, how about those employees of a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Anderson California who took a bath in the deep sink used to wash dishes:

source: http://www.local10.com/news/18248003/detail.html

[Steven]

OK, so you are disgusted if I use a sink and offended if I demand anything else. I could drive to a mosque everytime I pray, but the existence of the mosque is also something you find offensive. Short of shooting myself in the head, I'm not sure how to accomodate you.

PS, the feces that people expose themselves to prior to washing their hands in the sink is much dirtier and germier than my feet on bad day.

That is absolutely disgusting. What a selfish person you are.

How about washing your feet in YOUR car?

[andak01]

That is absolutely disgusting. What a selfish person you are.

How about washing your feet in YOUR car?

Selfish in what way? Washing my feet in the same sink that people watch the fecal germs off their hands? People also brush their teeth in public sinks. There are more germs in someone's mouth than on my feet. You said it's disgusting and selfish to demand a place to wash. I'm not demanding any such place. BTW, people who wash their feet on a regular basis have cleaner feet than those who do not.

[Steven]

Selfish in what way? Washing my feet in the same sink that people watch the fecal germs off their hands? People also brush their teeth in public sinks. There are more germs in someone's mouth than on my feet. You said it's disgusting and selfish to demand a place to wash. I'm not demanding any such place. BTW, people who wash their feet on a regular basis have cleaner feet than those who do not.



I said it is disgusting and selfish to wash your feet in a public sink and I hope security catches you the next time and throws you out.

[andak01]

I said it is disgusting and selfish to wash your feet in a public sink and I hope security catches you next time and throws you out.

But brushing my teeth and spitting into it wouldn't be disgusting? Washing my hands after urinating or defecating wouldn't be?

Anyway, the last time I did anything like that there were a number of us who prayed in the same place, and we did explain to security what we were up to. They were very accomodating and we thanked them. And if they had said no, we would have found someplace else.

[Steven]

But brushing my teeth and spitting into it wouldn't be disgusting? Washing my hands after urinating or defecating wouldn't be?

Anyway, the last time I did anything like that there were a number of us who prayed in the same place, and we did explain to security what we were up to. They were very accomodating and we thanked them.

It is hand washing sink and not a place to bath. Those security guards were morons and obviously do not know how Muslims are trying to impose Islam on the non-Islamic world.

[ShimonG]

Shimon, if feet washing bothers you, how about those employees of a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Anderson California who took a bath in the deep sink used to wash dishes:

source: http://www.local10.com/news/18248003/detail.html

I am unaware that the christian bible mandated such a bath. Plus i dont eat at KFC.

To answer your question, it is disgusting and those employees should be fired. And the damn sinks sterilized.

Can you now agree that what the islam taqqiya did was also disgusting, and since he admits doing it in a public place, that he should have been arrested and charged with the appropriate misdemeanor? Or is that too radical a thought for you to handle?

[dayag]

I am unaware that the christian bible mandated such a bath. Plus i dont eat at KFC.

To answer your question, it is disgusting and those employees should be fired. And the damn sinks sterilized.

Can you now agree that what the islam taqqiya did was also disgusting, and since he admits doing it in a public place, that he should have been arrested and charged with the appropriate misdemeanor? Or is that too radical a thought for you to handle?

No, I truly think there is a big difference between a bathroom sink and one used to wash dishes. Also, I would be very surprised if what Andak did was illegal.

[Steven]

No, I truly think there is a big difference between a bathroom sink and one used to wash dishes. Also, I would be very surprised if what Andak did was illegal.

I do not know if it is illegal either, but he would of been tossed out on his butt if he was caught doing that where I live. There are signs that specifically say NO BATHING. Also no one is condoning what happened at KFC. So they really do not compare.

[andak01]

I do not know if it is illegal either, but he would of been tossed out on his butt if he was caught doing that where I live. There are signs that specifically say NO BATHING. Also no one is condoning what happened at KFC. So they really do not compare.

I'm really enjoying watching you guys wriggle at the thought that someone would wet their bare feet at a sink so they can be clean and pure. I wonder what the actual sight of a Muslim praying would incite you to. Steve would that make you feel like a big man to throw someone into the street for washing their feet in a sink?

[KettleWhistle]

Time for some subtle yet effective gorilla marketing.. (http://www.paramountzone.com/arsefacesoap.htm)
:lol:

[Toadstool46]

I can't understand why you would waste your time washing your feet anyway. The chain of sterility would be broken again as soon as you put your feet back into your socks or whatever footwear you had. If you are in a public place, as soon as you place your foot back on the floor you are again contamintated. There is no such thing as a sterile environvent, especially in any public place. You are unclean as soon as you turn off the water tap, touch the door handle, pull your chair out to sit down etc.

I couldn't care less if you washed your feet in my kitchen sink at home. Its probably cleaner than the guck that comes off a dinner worth of dishes from any family meal. Plus the soap is meant to clean and after the water is gone the sink can be simply cleaned. I just don't understand all the trouble you go to for this ritual. I see it as purely symbolic and as such I don't think that a public washroom where people may be offended is the best place to make wudhu.

It is this demanding nature of this religion that repulses me. Its like you have the right to do whatever you want because it is a "religious practice" no matter how odd, embarrasing, unlawful, disturbing, embarrasing, repulsive it is. Well ya know what, go practice your weird and wonderful religious anticks, just don't expect the rest of this country to accept it if it is done in a public place where others may not need to see it or may be offended by it. Have some respect for the rest of the world.

[dayag]

I do not know if it is illegal either, but he would of been tossed out on his butt if he was caught doing that where I live. There are signs that specifically say NO BATHING. Also no one is condoning what happened at KFC. So they really do not compare.

I just brought up KFC because I thought it was a funny story. If Shimon didn't like feet being washed, I knew he really wouldn't like people taking baths in a sink used to wash dishes.

[ShimonG]

No, I truly think there is a big difference between a bathroom sink and one used to wash dishes.

I quite agree. However, even if you put lipstick on a pig, it still stays a pig and does all the things a pig does.

Do you really want yourself or your lil kids to wash their hands in the same sink which has been "wudhud-up". No telling where those feet have been. You know all the stuff that goes on in madrassahs, with the jihadi preachers, young boys, billy goats and assorted fauna.

Jeez, dayag, grow up buddy. If not for yourself, then at least for out little ones who might have had the misfortune of washing up in that sink next!!

PS. Love your avatar!

[ShimonG]

Have some respect for the rest of the world.

That goes against the very grain of islam and its inherent intolerance, evil, depravity and nihilism.

[Toadstool46]

Getting back to the purpose of this particular thread, the sharia in the UK the beginning of the end. It is true. A country should be one set of laws for its people. All people. When a radical religious culture comes in and wants to impose its ways in a foriegn country it is the beginning of the end.

I have no problems with any religious carrying ons as long as they are within the laws of the country in which they are being preformed. When you start asking for exceptions to the norm, you cross a line in my book. Then what is right and what is wrong becomes cloudy. This is not good. Then what happens if you have an inter religious relationship. Do both parties follow the religious law or the law of the country? Can you impose Sharia on a non muslim. I sure hope not.

Again it comes down to this arrogant, selfish, bullying, hatefull, bulligerant, disrespecting, abrasive religion. They can do what ever they want, no matter how socially, leagally, ethically, and morally unacceptable as long as they can twist the words of the everchanging Koran to back it up and make it "OK". The rest of theworld is expected to sit back and accept it because it is their " RELIGIOUS RIGHT"

GIVE ME A BREAK

[andak01]

I quite agree. However, even if you put lipstick on a pig, it still stays a pig and does all the things a pig does.

Do you really want yourself or your lil kids to wash their hands in the same sink which has been "wudhud-up". No telling where those feet have been. You know all the stuff that goes on in madrassahs, with the jihadi preachers, young boys, billy goats and assorted fauna.

Hilarious. Do you swim in a public pool? I used to here that kind of stuff when I was a kid about the N__. Don't swim with them or it'll wash off on you.

Does it occur to you that people who wash their feet often have cleaner feet than those who don't wash them?

[ShimonG]

Again it comes down to this arrogant, selfish, bullying, hatefull, bulligerant, disrespecting, abrasive religion. They can do what ever they want, no matter how socially, leagally, ethically, and morally unacceptable as long as they can twist the words of the everchanging Koran to back it up and make it "OK". The rest of theworld is expected to sit back and accept it because it is their " RELIGIOUS RIGHT"


Precisely. Dealing with the nazis showed that appeasement does not satiate evil. This is an evil that needs to be slapped down hard, ridiculed and lampooned, treated derisively so that its adherents know exactly what is wrong with it. Simultaneously, steps need to be implemented to rescue those brave enough to leave it and enter human civilization.

[andak01]

Precisely. Dealing with the nazis showed that appeasement does not satiate evil. This is an evil that needs to be slapped down hard, ridiculed and lampooned, treated derisively so that its adherents know exactly what is wrong with it. Simultaneously, steps need to be implemented to rescue those brave enough to leave it and enter human civilization.

Well that's not religion bashing, is it Newsguy? Comparing Muslims to Nazis? Saying that we are evil? What a damn hypocrite you are! I'm sure you could put a bullet in my head while espousing your openess and superiority and humanity. Just remember Caligula used to go on about barbarians.

You demand that I defend you and your way of life or have my religion outlawed and then you allow this! Fortunately I see how extreme and militant the whole lot of you are compared to normal people. You still haven't answered my question. What's your proper exchange rates for innocent Muslim lives to innocent Jews? I've offered up 3 to one, but I've a feeling you're thinking in the millions.

[scattergood]

Hilarious. Do you swim in a public pool? I used to here that kind of stuff when I was a kid about the N__. Don't swim with them or it'll wash off on you.

Does it occur to you that people who wash their feet often have cleaner feet than those who don't wash them?

Wow, playing the racist card so early Andak!

When you wash your feet, people worried about sanitation and safety have legitimate concerns. You ARE washing dirt and grime afterall.

When a Black person is swimming in pool, people worried about sanitation and safety don't have legitimate conerns. The person is just swimming just like everybody else. Now if the Black person started washing themselves with soap and scrubbing down then conerns about sanitation and safety would be legitimate.

Again, basic facts and logic escape you. So cue up your smear / victimization machine and hit the turbo button!

[andak01]

Wow, playing the racist card so early Andak!

When you wash your feet, people worried about sanitation and safety have legitimate concerns. You ARE washing dirt and grime afterall.

And what about brushing one's teeth, washing after urinating or defecating. We are talking about a bathroom, not a sink where food is prepared, they are different.

The person is just swimming just like everybody else. Now if the Black person started washing themselves with soap and scrubbing down then conerns about sanitation and safety would be legitimate.

So swimming in the water with filthy feet- Good. Washing feet that get washed several times per day in a sink- Bad. Getting in a pool with other filthy feet- Good. Sharing the same sink that others wash in after urinating and deficating and brush their teeth in and spit in- Good. Sharing a sink that someone who washes their feet often has washed their feet in- Disgusting.

[Toadstool46]

What's your proper exchange rates for innocent Muslim lives to innocent Jews?

I beleive that every life is equal.

If the Muslims would stop taking random pot shot rocket attacks at innocent citisens of Israel, then Israel forces would stop taking intelligent,surgical action against the murderers who fire these rockets and hide behind their women and children as a shield.

How pathetic for people to try and defend the acts of these cowards. They have 95% of the ME and can't allow a peaceful people to occupy a tiny part of it, the very land that they abused and could have cared less about until it wasn't theirs.

The myth of the refugees is also a joke. Any Arab who wanted to stay inside what is now the borders of Israel could have stayed and many did. They lead peaceful lives and have education from Israel universities and schools. They vote, go to work and have NO persecution.

You will never get me to swallow any nonsense about Muslims being the victims and Israel being war criminals.

God created all men equal. It is wrong to kill unless it is to protect yourself or your people from agression with the intent of killing you or your countrymen.

Iran is now causing rallies to support the removal of Israel from the world. I don't think that that is the act of victims.

Oh ya, and the one I love is " you should convert to my religion, it is the only real religion, and if you don't I will kill you"
This really looks like equality of human kind.

It is the attitude of madmen.

[ShimonG]

Oh ya, and the one I love is " you should convert to my religion, it is the only real religion, and if you don't I will kill you"
This really looks like equality of human kind.

It is the attitude of madmen.

Correction. It is the attitude of a mad religion.

[Steven]

It is this demanding nature of this religion that repulses me. Its like you have the right to do whatever you want because it is a "religious practice" no matter how odd, embarrasing, unlawful, disturbing, embarrasing, repulsive it is. Well ya know what, go practice your weird and wonderful religious anticks, just don't expect the rest of this country to accept it if it is done in a public place where others may not need to see it or may be offended by it. Have some respect for the rest of the world.

That will never happen, they do not care about the beliefs of others.

[Madeline]

Hilarious. Do you swim in a public pool? I used to here that kind of stuff when I was a kid about the N__. Don't swim with them or it'll wash off on you.

Does it occur to you that people who wash their feet often have cleaner feet than those who don't wash them?
This seems to be the rhetoric you so despise, yes?

[Madeline]

And what about brushing one's teeth, washing after urinating or defecating. We are talking about a bathroom, not a sink where food is prepared, they are different.
So you call the ones who cleanse themselves without water unclean, is that how I am to understand this?


So swimming in the water with filthy feet- Good. Washing feet that get washed several times per day in a sink- Bad. Getting in a pool with other filthy feet- Good. Sharing the same sink that others wash in after urinating and deficating and brush their teeth in and spit in- Good. Sharing a sink that someone who washes their feet often has washed their feet in- Disgusting.
I am still not quite sure if we lick the sink after brushing our teeth, or what you are referring to? Please explain yourself. Ranting incoherently makes sense to you only at this moment, and I wish to understand what you are trying to convey.

[Steven]

Pools have chlorine in them. I have also seen articles where Muslim women are jumping into public pools fully dressed. :tdown:

Then they wonder why people complain. Those that need to live under Islam, need to move to an Islamic country.

[Madeline]

Pools have chlorine in them. I have also seen articles where Muslim women are jumping into public pools fully dressed. :tdown:

Then they wonder why people complain. Those that need to live under Islam, need to move to an Islamic country.
Now. now...if the pool contains chlorine, then it might clean clothing as well, don't cha know.
:scratch:

[bararallu]

I dont know how you guys got off on this cleanliness-is-godliness tangent. The primary issue here is majority acceptable aesthetics and the connected issue is multiculturalism.

As Jews, we've acculturated heavily into Western aesthetic models. Even the Ultraorthodox are partially assimilated. It also helps that we don't have all that many innovations in terms of personal hygiene from the rest of the Western world. That said there are people that do.

I also found it disgusting when someone starts washing their feet next to me in a corporate bathroom. I intellectually understand that there is nothing profoundly different from washing ones hands and mouth (which too is a fairly modern innovation not without it's critics). I also understand these people just want to practice their religion in private but have to do this because they are working in a place that varies significantly from their cultural roots. Somethings we are educated not to accept as a matter of cultural prerogatives. We don't eat with our hands in the West, well accept we do with some food. We don't wear sandals in a corporate environment, well depends on the country right?

So it is with the foot washing. It's perfectly ok to be disturbed by it and it's just as ok to accept it. Nothing wrong with either position. If the former is accepted than we negate Multiculturalism which has some advantages and disadvantages. And if we encourage things like it we also extend multiculturalism, which too has trade offs. This doesn't have to go into germ theory, or racism and such unless most of us are hypochondriacs or have pretty bad related phobias. It's ok to just disagree on an aesthetic basis.

[KettleWhistle]

Urine is usually sterile, yet we don't pee in the sink. Should we accommodate for oddities? Frankly, I don't think so.

[Madeline]

I dont know how you guys got off on this cleanliness-is-godliness tangent. The primary issue here is majority acceptable aesthetics and the connected issue is multiculturalism.

As Jews, we've acculturated heavily into Western aesthetic models. Even the Ultraorthodox are partially assimilated. It also helps that we don't have all that many innovations in terms of personal hygiene from the rest of the Western world. That said there are people that do.

I also found it disgusting when someone starts washing their feet next to me in a corporate bathroom. I intellectually understand that there is nothing profoundly different from washing ones hands and mouth (which too is a fairly modern innovation not without it's critics). I also understand these people just want to practice their religion in private but have to do this because they are working in a place that varies significantly from their cultural roots. Somethings we are educated not to accept as a matter of cultural prerogatives. We don't eat with our hands in the West, well accept we do with some food. We don't wear sandals in a corporate environment, well depends on the country right?

So it is with the foot washing. It's perfectly ok to be disturbed by it and it's just as ok to accept it. Nothing wrong with either position. If the former is accepted than we negate Multiculturalism which has some advantages and disadvantages. And if we encourage things like it we also extend multiculturalism, which too has trade offs. This doesn't have to go into germ theory, or racism and such unless most of us are hypochondriacs or have pretty bad related phobias. It's ok to just disagree on an aesthetic basis.

So I shall spin this tale a bit more.
It is acceptable to have another wash their feet in a sink next to me? Mmm...ok. So I enter a Ladies room at a gas station, and the Lady before me used the drain hole in the floor. I have to get past the 'aim and miss' she left behind. Which one of these scenarios is acceptable? Both? Or none?:scratch:

[bararallu]

So I shall spin this tale a bit more.
It is acceptable to have another wash their feet in a sink next to me? Mmm...ok. So I enter a Ladies room at a gas station, and the Lady before me used the drain hole in the floor. I have to get past the 'aim and miss' she left behind. Which one of these scenarios is acceptable? Both? Or none?:scratch:

Not sure. Have you done any military service? Have you been to extremely rural places with outhouses? or camped for extended periods of time? If so.... acceptability is a luxury. Which, BTW, was not my mainstay point. Being that there are obviously disturbing aspects to other cultures behavior, and if you cant accommodate to that you should certainly not be blamed. It's an individuals decision in my book, but it will collectively have ramifications that are above and beyond Muslims washing their feet in Western workplaces.

Look, I find it disgusting when I come on a subway car and see chicken bones and other crap on the floor; compared to some places, NYC is one big pig sty and some would not like to live here because of it. I also hate it when other people floss at work, and have their particulates splatter the bathroom mirrors. Nor do I particularly like Muslims washing their feet in the sink while I wash my face. Sometimes it's more hilarious than it is disturbing. So everyone has their hangups. But they are just hangups.

When people introduce other stuff like health rationals that's when all of this becomes idiotic. I mean what's a little foot fungus when the bathroom door and every damn lock in the toilet is touched by so many people with standard contagions? What is the relative health risk vs. air quality (full of diesel and other fumes), over a daily dose of ultraviolet sunlight? unrestricted caloric intake? Lets just call the thing what it is and move on.

[ShimonG]

So I shall spin this tale a bit more.
It is acceptable to have another wash their feet in a sink next to me? Mmm...ok. So I enter a Ladies room at a gas station, and the Lady before me used the drain hole in the floor. I have to get past the 'aim and miss' she left behind. Which one of these scenarios is acceptable? Both? Or none?:scratch:


Oh if i was 30 yrs younger, i'd have asked you on a date. You'd have probably turned me down, but i'd have asked.

Stick around kid. You are exactly the kind of gal that was needed here to stir up some fusspots.

[Madeline]

Not sure. Have you done any military service? Have you been to extremely rural places with outhouses? or camped for extended periods of time? If so.... acceptability is a luxury. Which, BTW, was not my mainstay point. Being that there are obviously disturbing aspects to other cultures behavior, and if you cant accommodate to that you should certainly not be blamed. It's an individuals decision in my book, but it will collectively have ramifications that are above and beyond Muslims washing their feet in Western workplaces.

Look, I find it disgusting when I come on a subway car and see chicken bones and other crap on the floor; compared to some places, NYC is one big pig sty and some would not like to live here because of it. I also hate it when other people floss at work, and have their particulates splatter the bathroom mirrors. Nor do I particularly like Muslims washing their feet in the sink while I wash my face. Sometimes it's more hilarious than it is disturbing. So everyone has their hangups. But they are just hangups.

When people introduce other stuff like health rationals that's when all of this becomes idiotic. I mean what's a little foot fungus when the bathroom door and every damn lock in the toilet is touched by so many people with standard contagions? What is the relative health risk vs. air quality (full of diesel and other fumes), over a daily dose of ultraviolet sunlight? unrestricted caloric intake? Lets just call the thing what it is and move on.

You are correct in the assumption that one can take this as far as host Country will let it.
When you come to my house, you accept certain rules. When you enter a host Country, you do likewise.
Salt is only flavorful if not diluted...continued dilution makes it worthless.
It is attitude like yours who let our streets become garbage dumps. It is attitude like yours, your complacency and misplaced loyalty that will turn this Country to its ruin...if we let you continue.
Let me state once more, every Country, every culture has its own customs, its own values. All demand respect, and rightfully so.
Why should America not do the same.
You are worried about sunlight, air quality, fumes, while you readily accept the stench at your feet.
Why shall I lower my expectations? Why can't I expect others to honor mine?
Sharia, to get back on subject, is the diluting of a culture, once proud, and ever so accepting and tolerant of those who wanted to be tolerated.
If you want others to be tolerant, then live by example.

[andak01]

Let me be the one to steer this back on track. We're talking about the threat of the UK becoming a "dhimmi" culture and a Sharia state because someone requests a footbath. So here's what the options are:

1. Just say no.

2. Say no and offer an alternative like permission to use the existing sinks.

3. Say no and tell them to go to a mosque, then complain that they are going to a mosque. Then complain that there is a mosque.

4. Say no and arrest them for asking.

5. Say no and shoot them for asking.

6. Unthinkable. Ask them why and open up a dialogue. Tell them why you find it offensive if you do and ask how important it is.

[Madeline]

Let me be the one to steer this back on track. We're talking about the threat of the UK becoming a "dhimmi" culture and a Sharia state because someone requests a footbath. So here's what the options are:

1. Just say no.

2. Say no and offer an alternative like permission to use the existing sinks.

3. Say no and tell them to go to a mosque, then complain that they are going to a mosque. Then complain that there is a mosque.

4. Say no and arrest them for asking.

5. Say no and shoot them for asking.

6. Unthinkable. Ask them why and open up a dialogue. Tell them why you find it offensive if you do and ask how important it is.

Oh, but we are on track indeed, except that you suggest #6, but want no part of it.
#'s1,2,3 are fine as well, #'s 4 and 5 are more an example of anothers 'way of life' now, isn't it?

[Madeline]

Oh if i was 30 yrs younger, i'd have asked you on a date. You'd have probably turned me down, but i'd have asked.

Stick around kid. You are exactly the kind of gal that was needed here to stir up some fusspots.

Thank you kindly dear Sir, and a kid I am no more, but only still at heart.

[bararallu]

You are correct in the assumption that one can take this as far as host Country will let it. When you come to my house, you accept certain rules. When you enter a host Country, you do likewise.

You know when my distant relatives arrived in the US turn of the last century, for some reason they weren't allowed to attend college even though they had the grades and money or take a loan from a bank to grow their little shoe business... I don't know maybe you can tell me why that was and what changed over time...? And what that has to do per se with your house. :)

Salt is only flavorful if not diluted...continued dilution makes it worthless.

Non sequitur. Unless you think you and I are exactly the same or belong to the same family. We dont. My direct relatives where buried alive in Europe for being Jews, yours?

It is attitude like yours who let our streets become garbage dumps. It is attitude like yours, your complacency and misplaced loyalty that will turn this Country to its ruin...if we let you continue.

You dont know me from adam madam. Not sure how you would surmise my "attitude," my "complacency" or "my misplaced loyalty" from a few posts exchanged. Have you actually read all my posts at that? And yeah my misplaced loyalty.. lets see... I pay taxes, I obey the laws, and I give to charity, if I'd vote (and I dont since becoming an Israeli) I'd vote Libertarian, you know the folks that believe in good fences make good neighbors (and have 3 rottweilers and two shotguns in their garage to make sure the fence works)

Let me state once more, every Country, every culture has its own customs, its own values. All demand respect, and rightfully so. Why should America not do the same. You are worried about sunlight, air quality, fumes, while you readily accept the stench at your feet.

America should absolutely expect respect when it gives it. It's a great country. That said, as an Israeli on this forum, one interested in diverse cultures, I got a few questions for you. Please relate to us why your country is selling heavy armaments to my peoples enemies? Why has your country continuously brow beat mine into accepting one dhimifying peace treaty after another with irredentist enemy states?... I guess what I'm trying to say is if you are going to abstract your own house to the town square (not to mention a private corporations latrine), why not go the full monty, lets understand what goes on in this world and then work our way back.

Why shall I lower my expectations? Why can't I expect others to honor mine? Sharia, to get back on subject, is the diluting of a culture, once proud, and ever so accepting and tolerant of those who wanted to be tolerated. If you want others to be tolerant, then live by example.

I'm first and foremost a Jew and we are a tolerant people, and have lived by those principles for millennia. No one is asking you to lower anything, unless you intentionally want to read in a position for conflict. Thats fine too.

And as far as diluting of culture, who's culture would that be madam? The Ango-saxons? the 500 native American tribes, the African American ones? the Miami Cubans? The NY Puerto Ricans? The Brighton Beach Soviet Jews? The Chigago's 3 gen Poles?

For a minute there you reminded me of a Ukrainian school teacher I once had.... probably a mistake on my part.

[Steven]

When people introduce other stuff like health rationals that's when all of this becomes idiotic. I mean what's a little foot fungus when the bathroom door and every damn lock in the toilet is touched by so many people with standard contagions? What is the relative health risk vs. air quality (full of diesel and other fumes), over a daily dose of ultraviolet sunlight? unrestricted caloric intake? Lets just call the thing what it is and move on.

Yes, lets call it what it is, disgusting and selfish. This is just one step closer to the Islamification of the West and it should not be tolerated.

[Steven]

Let me be the one to steer this back on track. We're talking about the threat of the UK becoming a "dhimmi" culture and a Sharia state because someone requests a footbath. So here's what the options are:

1. Just say no.

2. Say no and offer an alternative like permission to use the existing sinks.

3. Say no and tell them to go to a mosque, then complain that they are going to a mosque. Then complain that there is a mosque.

4. Say no and arrest them for asking.

5. Say no and shoot them for asking.

6. Unthinkable. Ask them why and open up a dialogue. Tell them why you find it offensive if you do and ask how important it is.


Andak the issue with the UK is A LOT more than foot baths, and don't think others here do not know that. You think you are outsmarting everyone by just bringing up just one aspect of the problems that Islam is causing in the UK. Well it is not working.

You keep throwing your "dialogue" con out there. Dialogue with Muslims is meaningless. I saw a video from the Muslim Student Association. They said that they are going to wash their feet in public sinks no matter what. Maybe one day you and the rest of your Muslim buddies will see why so many people turn against them. Those that need to live under Islam, belong in Islamic countries.

6.We told you why we find it offensive and you said you are going to do it anyway. Thanks for proving that dialogue with Muslims is meaningless. No non-Muslim should care what is required by Muslims. Muslims need to learn to keep their religion to themselves, but we all see that will never happen.

[andak01]

Here's a thought. If they want to use a sink, allow them a sink and two times a day for ten minutes they can use it (Fajr, Magreb, and Isha fall outside of business hours). Make them sign an insurance waver that, if they fall while doing that, they get no worker's comp.

[Madeline]

You know when my distant relatives arrived in the US turn of the last century, for some reason they weren't allowed to attend college even though they had the grades and money or take a loan from a bank to grow their little shoe business... I don't know maybe you can tell me why that was and what changed over time...? And what that has to do per se with your house. :)
Please re-read my post. It is an example to bring a point across.

Non sequitur. Unless you think you and I are exactly the same or belong to the same family. We dont. My direct relatives where buried alive in Europe for being Jews, yours?

I appreciate this comment. Even though it has nothing to do with this subject.Shall we discuss these specific matters in a different thread?

You dont know me from adam madam. Not sure how you would surmise my "attitude," my "complacency" or "my misplaced loyalty" from a few posts exchanged. Have you actually read all my posts at that? And yeah my misplaced loyalty.. lets see... I pay taxes, I obey the laws, and I give to charity, if I'd vote (and I dont since becoming an Israeli) I'd vote Libertarian, you know the folks that believe in good fences make good neighbors (and have 3 rottweilers and two shotguns in their garage to make sure the fence works)

I do not know you...never assumed I did. It is often easier to feel offended than to accept another's point of view. I am answering the comments made by you. You are defending those who trash our streets, soil our surroundings, but take offense when I ask you to speak up instead of accepting it.
You brought up outhouses and camping in an earlier post. Let's go with that to try and convey my message.
I visit Amish communities frequently. When I am invited into an Amish home, I do not expect a hot shower in the morning, I do not expect an indoor bathroom. TV, or phone, and I don't bring my laptop. I respect my gracious hosts rules and customs.
When Amish visit the "English" for various reasons, they do not expect an outhouse...respect the community as is.
Respect is what I am speaking about, Sir. Not offending you as a person, not any culture, Jewish or other.

America should absolutely expect respect when it gives it. It's a great country. That said, as an Israeli on this forum, one interested in diverse cultures, I got a few questions for you. Please relate to us why your country is selling heavy armaments to my peoples enemies? Why has your country continuously brow beat mine into accepting one dhimifying peace treaty after another with irredentist enemy states?... I guess what I'm trying to say is if you are going to abstract your own house to the town square (not to mention a private corporations latrine), why not go the full monty, lets understand what goes on in this world and then work our way back.

This, once again, is beyond the scope of this particular thread. But you make some great points indeed.
I'm first and foremost a Jew and we are a tolerant people, and have lived by those principles for millennia. No one is asking you to lower anything, unless you intentionally want to read in a position for conflict. Thats fine too.

I would like you to rethink this statement. I do not recall having said that Jews are not a tolerant people, and by asking you specificly, I am not questioning a people. And I am not intentionally reading in a position of conflict. A conflict exists when something called a Soft Jihad is waged upon my Country, the UK, or any other non Muslim Country.

And as far as diluting of culture, who's culture would that be madam? The Ango-saxons? the 500 native American tribes, the African American ones? the Miami Cubans? The NY Puerto Ricans? The Brighton Beach Soviet Jews? The Chigago's 3 gen Poles?
Assimiltion is the key word here, Sir. And no, I will not go back to the mistakes and attrocities of yesterday. We are speaking about today and now.

For a minute there you reminded me of a Ukrainian school teacher I once had.... probably a mistake on my part.


Thank you for a spirited debate. I am sure we will become friends one day. As soon as we are not trying to misunderstand each other.

[Steven]

Here's a thought. If they want to use a sink, allow them a sink and two times a day for ten minutes they can use it (Fajr, Magreb, and Isha fall outside of business hours). Make them sign an insurance waver that, if they fall while doing that, they get no worker's comp.

Here's a thought, keep your religion to yourselves.

[Madeline]

Here's a thought, keep your religion to yourselves.

On that note, we could suggest to use a small utility bin to wash ones feet, in a bathroom stall perhaps?

[Steven]

On that note, we could suggest to use a small utility bin to wash ones feet, in a bathroom stall perhaps?



Why don't they just keep a gallon of water and a small basin in their car?

[Madeline]

Why don't they just keep a gallon of water and a small basin in their car?
And that is a mighty fine idea you have. It is where I keep my 'odds and ends' as well.

[bararallu]

Thank you for a spirited debate. I am sure we will become friends one day. As soon as we are not trying to misunderstand each other.

It is attitude like yours who let our streets become garbage dumps. It is attitude like yours, your complacency and misplaced loyalty that will turn this Country to its ruin...if we let you continue.

It's hard not to misunderstand someone when they go for your jugular.

[Mosche]

My problem with Islam is this: Islam expects accomodation, yet it gives NONE.

In Jerusalem--our most holy city--we are expected to tolerate a mosque on our holiest sight. In Mecca, on the other hand, any suggestion of building a synagogue or Christian church would lead to flag burning, demonstrations, riots, and worse. Don't even think about building it on top of their stone!

Now, less Andak misinterpret what I'm saying, I'm sure that there are Muslim's who are accomodating--they're just really, really quiet!

[Madeline]

My problem with Islam is this: Islam expects accomodation, yet it gives NONE.

In Jerusalem--our most holy city--we are expected to tolerate a mosque on our holiest sight. In Mecca, on the other hand, any suggestion of building a synagogue or Christian church would lead to flag burning, demonstrations, riots, and worse. Don't even think about building it on top of their stone!

Now, less Andak misinterpret what I'm saying, I'm sure that there are Muslim's who are accomodating--they're just really, really quiet!

You have summed it up perfectly what I was trying to say all along. And in so few words. Thank you

[Mosche]

You have summed it up perfectly what I was trying to say all along. And in so few words. Thank you


You are welcome! I've never been complimented for using "few words"! My family and friends complain that it takes me a week to say, "Good morning.":)

[Rob]

My problem with Islam is this: Islam expects accomodation, yet it gives NONE.

In Jerusalem--our most holy city--we are expected to tolerate a mosque on our holiest sight. In Mecca, on the other hand, any suggestion of building a synagogue or Christian church would lead to flag burning, demonstrations, riots, and worse. Don't even think about building it on top of their stone!

Now, less Andak misinterpret what I'm saying, I'm sure that there are Muslim's who are accomodating--they're just really, really quiet!

For Muslims it is very hard to comprehend why followers of other Abrahamic faiths donot accept Islam, since it is the perfect religion. I have heard many Muslims in the Arab world comparing churches with drug import: "For the same reason we donot allow drugs in our countries, we need to limit churches in our midst."
Although antisemitism is a way of life in the Muslim world, from a pure religious POV I think Muslims in general have less problems with synogogues. Trinity in Christianity in blasphemous and Judaism is no obstacle to world domination.

[Madeline]

For Muslims it is very hard to comprehend why followers of other Abrahamic faiths donot accept Islam, since it is the perfect religion. I have heard many Muslims in the Arab world comparing churches with drug import: "For the same reason we donot allow drugs in our countries, we need to limit churches in our midst."
Although antisemitism is a way of life in the Muslim world, from a pure religious POV I think Muslims in general have less problems with synogogues. Trinity in Christianity in blasphemous and Judaism is no obstacle to world domination.

Ok, that is a great point. Now, Muslims want us to educate ourselves about their Faith to become more tolerant. Can't we expect the same? We are constantly told that we are ignorant of Islam, and thusly "worried and afraid", the whole ignorance breeds fear concept.
So, unless Muslims practice what they preach.......you be the judge.

[andak01]

For Muslims it is very hard to comprehend why followers of other Abrahamic faiths donot accept Islam, since it is the perfect religion.

On the contrary. I find it almost humerous the way people approach me as though I'm a turn of phrase away from apostating. If only I knew about JESUS, if only I was aware of this ayah or this hadith or what this Sheikh said, I'd apostate. They are so EAGER!!!

I have heard many Muslims in the Arab world comparing churches with drug import: "For the same reason we donot allow drugs in our countries, we need to limit churches in our midst."

That sounds like a rather specific phrase, but you say you've heard many people use it? OK. I vehemently disagree with it, but if you say so. First off, there are churches, some centuries old, in almost every Muslim country except Saudi Arabia.

Although antisemitism is a way of life in the Muslim world, from a pure religious POV I think Muslims in general have less problems with synogogues. Trinity in Christianity in blasphemous and Judaism is no obstacle to world domination.

The number of houses of religion should reflect the demographic. If there is a demographic shift, then existing houses of worship that are no longer used should be treated with respect. The best place to study this effect is in ex-Yugoslavia where there are church/mosque structures that have switched flags more than once. What to do? Make it a museum? Gut the ornaments and ship them somewhere else? Convert it to a non-religious structure?

[Madeline]

"On the contrary. I find it almost humerous the way people approach me as though I'm a turn of phrase away from apostating. If only I knew about JESUS, if only I was aware of this ayah or this hadith or what this Sheikh said, I'd apostate. They are so EAGER!!!"





If you are eager to know, something called the Bible, specifically the New Testament, comes to mind. Since you have mastered the English language, nothing should stop you.
Now, as to belittling anothers Faith...that can go both ways. I just don't want to start yet another riot, calling Muhammed unacceptable names. So please, be aware, this conversation goes both ways. Just a loving reminder.

[Rob]

On the contrary. I find it almost humerous the way people approach me as though I'm a turn of phrase away from apostating. If only I knew about JESUS, if only I was aware of this ayah or this hadith or what this Sheikh said, I'd apostate. They are so EAGER!!!

This is not about you...

Serious question, have you ever been to heartland of Islam (the Arabian Peninsula)? I will be surprised if you did.



The number of houses of religion should reflect the demographic

Go tell that to the Gulf States, of which most have a large Hindu majority!

And about demograpihic swifts, I think you meant ethnic cleansing. Lets see your reaction when demographic swifts in Jerusalem cause the destruction of certain religious structures...

[scattergood]

Let me be the one to steer this back on track. We're talking about the threat of the UK becoming a "dhimmi" culture and a Sharia state because someone requests a footbath. So here's what the options are:

1. Just say no.

2. Say no and offer an alternative like permission to use the existing sinks.

3. Say no and tell them to go to a mosque, then complain that they are going to a mosque. Then complain that there is a mosque.

4. Say no and arrest them for asking.

5. Say no and shoot them for asking.

6. Unthinkable. Ask them why and open up a dialogue. Tell them why you find it offensive if you do and ask how important it is.

Two points. When all of these 'alternatives' are available in every country of the OIC then maybe this 'equivalence' and 'accept everybody' crap that you always try might have some weight. Until then it is just the usual bs you pull.

Second, how about this list for Muslim immigrants to the UK:

1) Learn English
2) Learn English manners and customs--specifically tolerance
3) Learn to assimilate into the English workplace and social structures
4) Don't support the triumphalists and totalitarians that preach in many mosques and stores and bookstores which sell such rubbish.
5) Abandon the governments coercive enforcement of Sharia courts
6) Abandon the drive for UK firms to conduct Sharia finance, London is afterall one of the biggest financial centers in the world based on western finance.

Now, cue the spin machine from andak to accuse me of wanting to wipe out all Muslims.

[andak01]

1) Learn English
2) Learn English manners and customs--specifically tolerance
3) Learn to assimilate into the English workplace and social structures
4) Don't support the triumphalists and totalitarians that preach in many mosques and stores and bookstores which sell such rubbish.
5) Abandon the governments coercive enforcement of Sharia courts
6) Abandon the drive for UK firms to conduct Sharia finance, London is afterall one of the biggest financial centers in the world based on western finance.

1 - 4 I'm absolutely in agreement with you.

5. I agree for anything other than family law (divorce, wills).

6. Sharia finance, if it isn't competitive with other offerings will die under its own weight.

Now, cue the spin machine from andak to accuse me of wanting to wipe out all Muslims.

Not this time since I agreed with over half of what you said. And anyway, you have been moved far into the center by some of our more extreme posters.

[Madeline]

Two points. When all of these 'alternatives' are available in every country of the OIC then maybe this 'equivalence' and 'accept everybody' crap that you always try might have some weight. Until then it is just the usual bs you pull.

Second, how about this list for Muslim immigrants to the UK:

1) Learn English
2) Learn English manners and customs--specifically tolerance
3) Learn to assimilate into the English workplace and social structures
4) Don't support the triumphalists and totalitarians that preach in many mosques and stores and bookstores which sell such rubbish.
5) Abandon the governments coercive enforcement of Sharia courts
6) Abandon the drive for UK firms to conduct Sharia finance, London is afterall one of the biggest financial centers in the world based on western finance.

Now, cue the spin machine from andak to accuse me of wanting to wipe out all Muslims.


:clap: And not just in the UK, but in the U.S. of A as well.
It trickles, you know.

[Rob]

6) Abandon the drive for UK firms to conduct Sharia finance, London is afterall one of the biggest financial centers in the world based on western finance.

What is wrong with sharia finance?

[Steven]

On the contrary. I find it almost humerous the way people approach me as though I'm a turn of phrase away from apostating. If only I knew about JESUS, if only I was aware of this ayah or this hadith or what this Sheikh said, I'd apostate. They are so EAGER!!!

I don't, I see you as a lost cause.

That sounds like a rather specific phrase, but you say you've heard many people use it? OK. I vehemently disagree with it, but if you say so. First off, there are churches, some centuries old, in almost every Muslim country except Saudi Arabia.

Big deal, new ones are not being built and old ones are not being repaired. Christians and Jews are persecuted across the Islamic world.

The number of houses of religion should reflect the demographic. If there is a demographic shift, then existing houses of worship that are no longer used should be treated with respect. The best place to study this effect is in ex-Yugoslavia where there are church/mosque structures that have switched flags more than once. What to do? Make it a museum? Gut the ornaments and ship them somewhere else? Convert it to a non-religious structure?

Christians and Jews were killed and pushed out of the Middle East. You sound just like every other Islamic propagandist. No one is buying it.

[Madeline]

Christians and Jews were killed and pushed out of the Middle East. You sound just like every other Islamic propagandist. No one is buying it.

Don't forget, when one leaves i.e. Christianity no one gets killed. One can't say the same about Islam, right?

[Steven]

Don't forget, when one leaves i.e. Christianity no one gets killed. One can't say the same about Islam, right?

Nope, Islam is a religion of dominance, well not even a religion. More of a political movement.

[andak01]

Christians and Jews were killed and pushed out of the Middle East. You sound just like every other Islamic propagandist. No one is buying it.

Christians are among the over a million Iraqi refugees that didn't exist before we invaded them. Since the invasion centuries old churches have been damaged and death threats handed out, none of which was happening before.

[Steven]

Christians are among the over a million Iraqi refugees that didn't exist before we invaded them. Since the invasion centuries old churches have been damaged and death threats handed out, none of which was happening before.

Ummm....Iraq is not the entire Islamic world and NO ONE forced the Muslims there to persecute the Christians. They showed their true colors.

Thousands of Muslims Attack Another Church in Egypt
http://www.aina.org/news/20081213163952.htm


Indonesia 2 Churches torched

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2008/s08120066.htm

[Steven]

1 - 4 I'm absolutely in agreement with you.

5. I agree for anything other than family law (divorce, wills).

6. Sharia finance, if it isn't competitive with other offerings will die under its own weight.



Not this time since I agreed with over half of what you said. And anyway, you have been moved far into the center by some of our more extreme posters.

So when do you go start to make these things happen? You wouldn't and none of this will happen as people cannot be forced to assimilate. Muslims need to stay in Islamic countries.

[Madeline]

It is now here in the U.S., no more just a UK problem
As you know, we have encouraged our members to contact AIG to express our disapproval with AIG’s decision to market a shariah-compliant insurance product.

One of our members received an email response from AIG, which we have copied below. Beneath the AIG response is our response.

“We received your email expressing your concern over our announcement that we would begin marketing Takaful insurance products in the United States.

AIG operates around the world and endeavors to provide products that meet the diverse needs of its 74 million customers living in 130 countries and jurisdictions.

Marketing to specific ethnic constituencies is not new or unique to AIG. For instance, AIG businesses have tailored programs for a range of religious organizations, including Methodist churches and synagogues. The concept of Takaful is similar the concept of reciprocal exchange, or mutual insurance. What makes the structure somewhat different is that premiums are held in non-interest-bearing accounts, and any excess profit is distributed back to the policyholders or given to charity. While the Takaful structure is desirable to those whose religious convictions preclude them from engaging in traditional interest-bearing structures, Takaful is also increasingly popular among non-Muslims who feel that the excess charitable aspect is a socially responsible mechanism for the purchase of insurance. In the United States, AIG plans to direct excess profits to U.S. based charitable organizations. These policies are standard homeowners’ policies and are guided by U.S. law. The funds for these policies are held in Shariah-compliant, non-interest bearing accounts at HSBC.

We hope this addresses your concerns.”

The AIG response is a fairly typical one companies provide when asked about shariah-compliant products. They usually compare shariah-compliant products to special products offered to other religious groups, and they almost always characterize the shariah-compliant product as “socially responsible.” Note AIG’s comparison to “Methodist churches and synagogues” and the phrase “socially responsible mechanism.”

There are at least three problems with AIG’s response.

1. The comparison to “Methodist churches and synagogues” is faulty. Methodist churches and synagogues do not require financial products that advance religious law that oppresses women and has at its core the call to jihad, as shariah-compliant products do. “Shariah-compliant” is just that – in compliance with Shariah law. The tenets of Shariah Islamic law include permission for forced child marriages, the beating of disobedient women, death sentences for Muslims who chose to convert away from Shariah Islam, and the obligation to wage offensive military Jihad against non-Muslims. By offering shariah-compliant products AIG, whether knowingly or unwittingly, is legitimizing and, by extension, endorsing shariah law.

Think of it this way. Would AIG offer a product that was “apartheid compliant”? Of course not, because AIG would know that doing so would legitimize apartheid. To argue that a company can offer a product that is “compliant” with shariah law, but is not legitimizing shariah law, is disingenuous. So we repeat, AIG is either knowingly or unwittingly legitimizing a religious law system that oppresses women and is animated by jihad.

2. The advisory board for AIG’s Shariah-compliant insurance includes Muhammed Imran Usmani, the son and disciple of Muhammed Taki Usmani. The elder Usmani is a “who’s who” in the Islamist world and an outspoken proponent of aggressive jihad. For example, he has issued numerous fatwas (religious rulings) that provide material support for terrorism. What “socially responsible mechanism” does AIG provide to “Methodist churches and synagogues” that has an advisory board which includes the disciple of an internationally-known advocate for terrorism?

Let’s use the apartheid example again. Would AIG offer a product that had an advisory board which included the son and disciple of an internationally-known advocate for apartheid? Of course not.

3. Note this statement in AIG’s response: “In the United States, AIG plans to direct excess profits to U.S. based charitable organizations.” Shariah-compliant finance requires such charitable giving to go to Muslim charities. Who directs where the money goes? The Shariah-compliant advisory board, which in this case includes the son and disciple of an internationally-renowned advocate of terrorism.

But that’s only one problem. Currently over two dozen Muslim charities have been identified by the U.S. government as having links to terrorist organizations. How many other Muslim charities have links to terrorist organizations and have not yet been identified? The recent convictions in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial illustrate the complex web that some Muslim charities have created to funnel charitable contributions to terrorist organizations.

What AIG is thus doing is offering a financial instrument that may very well wind up as a conduit for funds to terrorist organizations. Even if that never occurred, why would a company want to put itself in such a position? Why would a company want to entangle itself with the son and disciple of an advocate for terrorism? Why would a company even take the chance that a financial product it offers could end up serving as a conduit for funds to terrorist organizations? How is this “socially responsible”? What’s more, doesn’t AIG recognize that, if funds from its shariah-compliant product did end up going to terrorist organizations, it could be facing, at best, a public relations nightmare, and at worst, lawsuits alleging negligence, and even criminal investigations?

This is no mere hypothesis. David Yerushalmi, a legal expert on the issue of shariah law, has written a lengthy legal article spelling out the potential civil and criminal liabilities for companies that engage in shariah-compliant finance. (To read the article click here).

We will continue to press for more information and for the opportunity to educate AIG as to the dangers of what it has ventured into. We’ll keep you posted.

Source-ACTforAmerica

[Steven]

What is wrong with sharia finance?

It is just another inroad for sharia and the profits could easily be used to fund terrorist groups.

[scattergood]

What is wrong with sharia finance?

Two things. Firstly it is hugely in conflict with Western finance. There will be a lot of entanglements in that conflict. Secondly, it is religious in nature and as the state comes in to support shariah rules it is essentially entangling religion with the state.

Shariah institutions for example cannot invest in alcohol and pork and other 'immoral' institutions. This isn't something I want state run and financed banks deciding.

[andak01]

It is just another inroad for sharia and the profits could easily be used to fund terrorist groups.

No it couldn't. AIG and other banks and insurers are subject to the same strict regulations that any other American company is. If any bank outside of America is going to move money illicitely, they'll do it with or without Sharia instruments. There is no easy legal way for terrorists to get funded. All Muslim charities are now under close scrutiny and monitoring banks is one of the methods used today. If AIG provides these services, it's a matter of supply and demand. They are profitable or they wouldn't be offered.

[Madeline]

No it couldn't. AIG and other banks and insurers are subject to the same strict regulations that any other American company is. If any bank outside of America is going to move money illicitely, they'll do it with or without Sharia instruments. There is no easy legal way for terrorists to get funded. All Muslim charities are now under close scrutiny and monitoring banks is one of the methods used today. If AIG provides these services, it's a matter of supply and demand. They are profitable or they wouldn't be offered.

3. Note this statement in AIG’s response: “In the United States, AIG plans to direct excess profits to U.S. based charitable organizations.” Shariah-compliant finance requires such charitable giving to go to Muslim charities. Who directs where the money goes? The Shariah-compliant advisory board, which in this case includes the son and disciple of an internationally-renowned advocate of terrorism.

But that’s only one problem. Currently over two dozen Muslim charities have been identified by the U.S. government as having links to terrorist organizations. How many other Muslim charities have links to terrorist organizations and have not yet been identified? The recent convictions in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial illustrate the complex web that some Muslim charities have created to funnel charitable contributions to terrorist organizations.

What AIG is thus doing is offering a financial instrument that may very well wind up as a conduit for funds to terrorist organizations. Even if that never occurred, why would a company want to put itself in such a position? Why would a company want to entangle itself with the son and disciple of an advocate for terrorism? Why would a company even take the chance that a financial product it offers could end up serving as a conduit for funds to terrorist organizations? How is this “socially responsible”? What’s more, doesn’t AIG recognize that, if funds from its shariah-compliant product did end up going to terrorist organizations, it could be facing, at best, a public relations nightmare, and at worst, lawsuits alleging negligence, and even criminal investigations?

[scattergood]

No it couldn't. AIG and other banks and insurers are subject to the same strict regulations that any other American company is. If any bank outside of America is going to move money illicitely, they'll do it with or without Sharia instruments. There is no easy legal way for terrorists to get funded. All Muslim charities are now under close scrutiny and monitoring banks is one of the methods used today. If AIG provides these services, it's a matter of supply and demand. They are profitable or they wouldn't be offered.

The much bigger issue is that now that AIG is an arm of the US gov't because of the bailout and oversite it now has, supporting Sharia finance and Muslim charities is a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Iranian_Propaganda_TV_Increases_its_Reach.asp

We were disappointed to see that the Iranian state funded Press TV has multiplied its potential audience after launching December 1, 2008 on the UK's mainstream Sky satellite service. While Press TV claims to offer (http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/Articles/PressReleases/tabid/77/newsid391/5437/Press-TV-launches-on-Sky/Default.aspx) a "straight, unbiased news agenda, mixed with analytical shows and a wide range of guests reflecting diverse views," it is impossible to reconcile this with the reality.

After all, this is the same Press TV that published Nicholas Kollerstrom's outrageous piece of Holocaust denial, The Walls of Auschwitz: A Review of the Chemical Studies (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=56287&sectionid=3510303) and frequently features Lady Michelle Renouf, a neo-Nazi (http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/22/presstv-britains-neo-nazi-broadcaster/) and supporter of Holocaust denier David Irving. (See Renouf in her own words (http://www.tellingfilms.co.uk/iran-conference.html).)

HonestReporting was contacted by Press TV in September 2008 asking for assistance in recommending panelists for a debate show. Pointing out Press TV's promotion of Holocaust denial and the genocidal intentions towards Israel of the station's Iranian backers, we politely told (http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/HR_Rejects_Iranian_Press_TV_Request.asp) Press TV that we had no intention of helping its credibility. We also urged other organizations not to cooperate.

Press TV has continued to try to entice credible guests on to its shows, the latest being social media expert and CEO of Zionism on the Web (http://www.zionismontheweb.org/), Dr Andre Oboler. Oboler also politely declined Press TV's approach for the same reasons as HonestReporting. He received this shocking response (http://www.zionismontheweb.org/zionism_commentary/iran_nolocaust_denial_press_tv.htm) from a Press TV employee: Bla bla
We are free otherwise we would not contact you. And no one denies the holocaust. We are open to debate unlike you Zionist corporate new world order people.
I wanted for you to come and have a change to defend these foreign European occupiers of asia and north afrika, extension of British India , violation of International law that you call Israel.
We at presstv get many zioNaist and Israel supporters on and give them free air time so the audience can make their own assumption.
Iran does not support or promote genocide but cowboys did against Indians and the new cowboys (Israelis) do against the Real Indians (Palestine , Arabia, Asia, Lebanon) ..etc
Im sorry that Iran overthrew a puppet ZioNazi king but unfortunately Iran is not a puppet Monarchist ALCIADA group that you like
Does Press TV really expect us to believe that it has an "unbiased news agenda"?

[Steven]

No it couldn't. AIG and other banks and insurers are subject to the same strict regulations that any other American company is. If any bank outside of America is going to move money illicitely, they'll do it with or without Sharia instruments. There is no easy legal way for terrorists to get funded. All Muslim charities are now under close scrutiny and monitoring banks is one of the methods used today. If AIG provides these services, it's a matter of supply and demand. They are profitable or they wouldn't be offered.

Even this you try and spin. Right it couldn't, all because YOU say so.:rolleyes: It is another inroad for sharia and I do not care if it is profitable or not. The Muslims can easily doctor the books to show where they money goes and then fund terrorism.

[andak01]

Even this you try and spin. Right it couldn't, all because YOU say so.:rolleyes: It is another inroad for sharia and I do not care if it is profitable or not. The Muslims can easily doctor the books to show where they money goes and then fund terrorism.

So AIG is restricting things so that only Muslims can handle Sharia instruments? Do you have any proof of this? Do you have any proof that these offerings are less regulated than anything else from a bank? You really don't know a lot about banking and compliance, do you?

[Steven]

So AIG is restricting things so that only Muslims can handle Sharia instruments? Do you have any proof of this? Do you have any proof that these offerings are less regulated than anything else from a bank? You really don't know a lot about banking and compliance, do you?


Another false statement. I never said things were less regulated. I said that things can be altered. We do not need your religion in our government.

You really do not have ANY good excuses, do you?

[andak01]

We do not need your religion in our government.


AIG isn't our government the last time I checked. And a type of bank offering isn't a government either.

[Steven]

AIG isn't our government the last time I checked. And a type of bank offering isn't a government either.



U.S. Government Embraces Islamic Banking

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/us-government-embraces-islamic-banking/

[andak01]

U.S. Government Embraces Islamic Banking

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/us-government-embraces-islamic-banking/

Speakers included: Robert Spencer, author of Stealth Jihad (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FStealth-Jihad-Radical-Subverting-America%2Fdp%2F1596985569&tag=pajamasmedia-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325); Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy; Dan Pollak for Morton Klein, Zionist Organization of America;
Andrea Lafferty, Traditional Values Coalition; among others.

The organization often engages in sensationalized right-wing rhetoric.
In a 2005 posting on the TVC website, Sheldon wrote:
A dangerous Marxist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx)/Leftist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leftist)/Homosexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual)/Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) coalition has formed – and we’d better be willing to fight it with everything in our power. These people are playing for keeps. Their hero, Mao Tse Tung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Tse_Tung) is estimated to have murdered upwards of 60 million people during his reign of terror in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China). Do we think we can escape such persecution if we refuse to fight for what is right?[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Values_Coalition#cite_note-12)
The quote refers to an advertisement run in the New York Times in support of same-sex marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage), in which the TVC "cherry picked" signatories including the Revolutionary Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Communist_Party) (RCP), ACT UP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_UP) (New York City), Queers for Economic Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queers_for_Economic_Justice&action=edit&redlink=1), the Islamic Circle of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_Circle_of_America&action=edit&redlink=1) and Imam Tabib Abdur-Rashid (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tabib_Abdur-Rashid&action=edit&redlink=1) of the Islamic Brotherhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_Brotherhood&action=edit&redlink=1)mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque) in New York as "proof" of a conspiracy against the TVC's organizaion.
Soon after this episode, the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center) decided to list the TVC as a hate group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group). [14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Values_Coalition#cite_note-13)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Values_Coalition

Are your TVC dues up to date?

[Steven]

Speakers included: Robert Spencer, author of Stealth Jihad (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FStealth-Jihad-Radical-Subverting-America%2Fdp%2F1596985569&tag=pajamasmedia-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325); Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy; Dan Pollak for Morton Klein, Zionist Organization of America;
Andrea Lafferty, Traditional Values Coalition; among others.

The organization often engages in sensationalized right-wing rhetoric.
In a 2005 posting on the TVC website, Sheldon wrote:
A dangerous Marxist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx)/Leftist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leftist)/Homosexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual)/Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) coalition has formed – and we’d better be willing to fight it with everything in our power. These people are playing for keeps. Their hero, Mao Tse Tung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Tse_Tung) is estimated to have murdered upwards of 60 million people during his reign of terror in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China). Do we think we can escape such persecution if we refuse to fight for what is right?[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Values_Coalition#cite_note-12)
The quote refers to an advertisement run in the New York Times in support of same-sex marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage), in which the TVC "cherry picked" signatories including the Revolutionary Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Communist_Party) (RCP), ACT UP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_UP) (New York City), Queers for Economic Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queers_for_Economic_Justice&action=edit&redlink=1), the Islamic Circle of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_Circle_of_America&action=edit&redlink=1) and Imam Tabib Abdur-Rashid (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tabib_Abdur-Rashid&action=edit&redlink=1) of the Islamic Brotherhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_Brotherhood&action=edit&redlink=1)mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque) in New York as "proof" of a conspiracy against the TVC's organizaion.
Soon after this episode, the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center) decided to list the TVC as a hate group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group). [14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Values_Coalition#cite_note-13)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Values_Coalition

Are your TVC dues up to date?

It is true, many on the left protect Islamists. This has nothing to do with sharia financing.
I applaud everyone who speaks out against you and Islam.
Islam is the hate group.

[andak01]

It is true, many on the left protect Islamists. This has nothing to do with sharia financing. Keep trying to spin and change the subject. No working.
I stand with them against your religion. I applaud everyone who speaks out against you and Islam.

I kind of figured this would be right up your ally. So far you've applauded the BNP and every other xenophobic neo-Nazi group in Europe, why not this too?

[Steven]

I kind of figured this would be right up your ally. So far you've applauded the BNP and every other xenophobic neo-Nazi group in Europe, why not this too?

I said that I applaud them for speaking out against Islam and that is all. It does not say that the TVC is neo-Nazi or anti-Jewish. Speaking about the hate that stems from Islam is not hate.
Keep trying to get the focus off Islam.

The question of the day is, whose mind have you changed?:rofl:

[Steven]

Back to the OP.

ShimonG,


Blind man's guide dog barred from restaurant for offending Muslims
A blind man has been turned away from a fashionable Indian restaurant because his guide dog offended Muslim staff.

By John Bingham
Last Updated: 8:47PM GMT 15 Dec 2008

Alun Elder-Brown was barred from bringing his guide dog, Finn, into Kirthon Restaurant
Alun Elder-Brown, a recruitment executive, said he was left feeling "like a piece of dirt" after being barred from bringing the animal into Kirthon Restaurant in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, on religious grounds.
The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association said the decision was illegal under the Disability Discrimination Act and Mr Elder-Brown, 51, is now considering suing the establishment in The Pantiles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3775993/Blind-mans-guide-dog-barred-from-restaurant-for-offending-Muslims.html

[andak01]

And again, the restaurant is about to be sued and probably put out of business. The Taxi drivers who refused dogs have been prosecuted. The med students who refused the rules failed their exams. All of these hysterical stories about how Islam is taking over end the same way, in failure to take over anything. Frankly, I am delighted that people who make unreasonable demands are being met reasonably with refusal or dismissal or law suits etc. What I am not so thrilled about is the sensationalism that attaches to these stories. If a man refused to wear a shirt to work at a restaurant and got fired, we'd never hear about it, but a Muslim doing the similar things is international news. Bottom line, they break workplace rules, fire them. They break laws arrest them or sue them.

[Steven]

Typical andak. A problem hasn't happened, so don't worry about it and stop complaining. But once it has happed it is too late.

It is like being in a car hurtling towards a cliff. You say, hey maybe we should slow down or change directions, we are going to head off a cliff. Andak's response above would be akin to saying 'shut up, we haven't gone off no stinkin' cliff'. It would be funny if it weren't so transparently contradictory and falls in line with Islamist / soft jihad thinking.

:clap::clap:

[Steven]

December 15, 2008

U.K.: Counterterror advisor to Metropolitan Police is on Interpol wanted list
He advocated the overthrow of the Tunisian government in favor of an Islamic state. The report below mentions that British security services did not regard him as a threat when Tunisia requested his extradition in 1997. Surely, they'll want to revisit that assessment.

In the meantime, are they studying what he tells them in the way criminologists interview convicts in an effort to prevent future crimes, or in a more trusting frame of mind?

"Terrorism adviser to Met is on wanted list," by Richard Kerbaj and Dominic Kennedy for the Times Online, December 15 (thanks to all who sent this in):


http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023933.php

[Steven]

And again, the restaurant is about to be sued and probably put out of business. The Taxi drivers who refused dogs have been prosecuted. The med students who refused the rules failed their exams. All of these hysterical stories about how Islam is taking over end the same way, in failure to take over anything. Frankly, I am delighted that people who make unreasonable demands are being met reasonably with refusal or dismissal or law suits etc. What I am not so thrilled about is the sensationalism that attaches to these stories. If a man refused to wear a shirt to work at a restaurant and got fired, we'd never hear about it, but a Muslim doing the similar things is international news. Bottom line, they break workplace rules, fire them. They break laws arrest them or sue them.

Muslims are trying to impose across the world. Muslims are slowly taking over as they are forming their own little Islamic enclaves across Europe. But according to you it is all made up. :tdown:
They do not lose every lawsuit and the West has enough problems we do not need more by continually allowing Muslims in.


If Muslim immigration is not stopped the entire world will live like the people of Israel and Kashmir.


Terrorists in Pakistan planning over 20 attacks on Britain, says Gordon Brown
More than twenty serious terrorist plots to stage attacks in Britain are being planned in Pakistan, Gordon Brown said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3757357/Terrorists-in-Pakistan-planning-over-20-attacks-on-Britain-says-Gordon-Brown.html

[andak01]

I suppose I really wasn't enthusiastic enough. You propose? Every Muslim in the country gets deported? Collective punishment seems to be a common thread around here.

BTW, here's a follow up.

Muslims break taboo to allow guide dog into mosque


The MCB reexamined the rules on dogs after incidents in which Muslim restaurant owners and taxi drivers refused customers with guide dogs. In June Sallahaddin Abdullah was fined £200 in Cambridge after he refused to allow a blind couple into his taxi because they had a guide dog.

The MCB issued a ruling after saying British Muslims should allow guide dogs to enter restaurants and taxis.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3087362.ece

[Steven]

I suppose I really wasn't enthusiastic enough. You propose? Every Muslim in the country gets deported? Collective punishment seems to be a common thread around here.

BTW, here's a follow up.

Muslims break taboo to allow guide dog into mosque


The MCB reexamined the rules on dogs after incidents in which Muslim restaurant owners and taxi drivers refused customers with guide dogs. In June Sallahaddin Abdullah was fined £200 in Cambridge after he refused to allow a blind couple into his taxi because they had a guide dog.

The MCB issued a ruling after saying British Muslims should allow guide dogs to enter restaurants and taxis.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3087362.ece

More word games from you. I did not say deport, I said end Muslim immigration. Is this supposed to offset all the problems?

As for the Muslim Council of Britain, they are just another Islamist group. Thanks for bringing them up.


Muslim Council of Britain Steps Up Islamization Effort
Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 2:21:11 pm PST

The Muslim Council of Britain, probably the most influential and well-connected UK Islamic front group, has laid out their demands for Britain’s schools to follow shari’a law—and not just for Muslim students: Muslims: ‘Ban’ Un-Islamic Schools.

DEMANDS for a ban on “un-Islamic” activities in schools will be set out by the Muslim Council of Britain today.

Targets include playground games, swimming lessons, school plays, parents’ evenings and even vaccinations.

And the calls for all children to be taught in Taliban-style conditions will be launched with the help of a senior Government education adviser. Professor Tim Brighouse, chief adviser to London schools, was due to attend the event at the capital’s biggest mosque. His presence there was seen as “deeply worrying”, and a sign that the report was backed by the Government.

Tory MP Greg Hands said: “The MCB needs to realise it has to move closer to the rest of the community, not away from it. The presence of Tim Brighouse implies Government backing of this report. This is very worrying.”

Terry Sanderson of the National Secular Society said the report was a “recipe for disaster”. He added: “Schools with even just a handful of Muslim kids will find they have to follow these guidelines because there aren’t the staff to have one set of classes for Muslims and another for the rest. The MCB shouldn’t try to force its religious agenda on children who may not want it. The Government needs to send the MCB packing. Schools should be about teaching, not preaching.”

The report, Towards Greater Understanding – Meeting The Needs of Muslim Pupils In State Schools, says all schools should bring in effective bans for all pupils on “un-Islamic activities” like dance classes.

It also wants to limit certain activities during Ramadan. They include science lessons dealing with sex, parents’ evenings, exams and immunisation programmes.

The holy month – when eating and drinking is not allowed in daylight hours – should also see a ban on swimming lessons in case pupils swallow water in the pool. When swimming is allowed, boys should wear clothing covering their bodies “from the navel to the neck”, even during single-sex pool sessions, while girls must be covered up completely at all times, apart from the face and hands.

The MCB adds that schools should ensure contact sports, including football and basketball, “are always in single-gender groups”.

Even school trips are targeted in the report, which wants them all to be made single-sex “to encourage greater participation from Muslim pupils”.

It wants Arabic language classes for Muslim pupils, and says the Koran should be recited in music classes. And all schools should ensure they have prayer rooms with washing facilities attached, it says.

In art classes, Muslim children should not be allowed to draw people, as this is forbidden under some interpretations of Islamic law.

And while the MCB insists that all British children should learn about Islam, it wants Muslims to have the right to withdraw their children from RE lessons dealing with Christianity and other faiths.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24539_Muslim_Council_of_Britain_Steps_Up_Is lamization_Effort&only

[ShimonG]

islamic taqqiya shred to smithereens by this great rebuttal.

CAIR and MCB are both evil islam organizations, whose goal is the complete nihilistic annihilation of the non-moslem. BUT THAT IS OK. MCB is cited with much glory and approval by islam taqqiya.

Well, lets see islam taqqiya spin its way out of these smashing exposure.



As for the Muslim Council of Britain, they are just another Islamist group. Thanks for bringing them up.


Muslim Council of Britain Steps Up Islamization Effort
Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 2:21:11 pm PST

The Muslim Council of Britain, probably the most influential and well-connected UK Islamic front group, has laid out their demands for Britain’s schools to follow shari’a law—and not just for Muslim students: Muslims: ‘Ban’ Un-Islamic Schools.

DEMANDS for a ban on “un-Islamic” activities in schools will be set out by the Muslim Council of Britain today.

Targets include playground games, swimming lessons, school plays, parents’ evenings and even vaccinations.

And the calls for all children to be taught in Taliban-style conditions will be launched with the help of a senior Government education adviser. Professor Tim Brighouse, chief adviser to London schools, was due to attend the event at the capital’s biggest mosque. His presence there was seen as “deeply worrying”, and a sign that the report was backed by the Government.

Tory MP Greg Hands said: “The MCB needs to realise it has to move closer to the rest of the community, not away from it. The presence of Tim Brighouse implies Government backing of this report. This is very worrying.”

Terry Sanderson of the National Secular Society said the report was a “recipe for disaster”. He added: “Schools with even just a handful of Muslim kids will find they have to follow these guidelines because there aren’t the staff to have one set of classes for Muslims and another for the rest. The MCB shouldn’t try to force its religious agenda on children who may not want it. The Government needs to send the MCB packing. Schools should be about teaching, not preaching.”

The report, Towards Greater Understanding – Meeting The Needs of Muslim Pupils In State Schools, says all schools should bring in effective bans for all pupils on “un-Islamic activities” like dance classes.

It also wants to limit certain activities during Ramadan. They include science lessons dealing with sex, parents’ evenings, exams and immunisation programmes.

The holy month – when eating and drinking is not allowed in daylight hours – should also see a ban on swimming lessons in case pupils swallow water in the pool. When swimming is allowed, boys should wear clothing covering their bodies “from the navel to the neck”, even during single-sex pool sessions, while girls must be covered up completely at all times, apart from the face and hands.

The MCB adds that schools should ensure contact sports, including football and basketball, “are always in single-gender groups”.

Even school trips are targeted in the report, which wants them all to be made single-sex “to encourage greater participation from Muslim pupils”.

It wants Arabic language classes for Muslim pupils, and says the Koran should be recited in music classes. And all schools should ensure they have prayer rooms with washing facilities attached, it says.

In art classes, Muslim children should not be allowed to draw people, as this is forbidden under some interpretations of Islamic law.

And while the MCB insists that all British children should learn about Islam, it wants Muslims to have the right to withdraw their children from RE lessons dealing with Christianity and other faiths.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24539_Muslim_Council_of_Britain_Steps_Up_Is lamization_Effort&only

[Steven]

UK Doctor guilty of car bomb plots
Tue Dec 16, 2008
By Michael Holden

LONDON (Reuters) - An Iraqi doctor was convicted on Tuesday of a plot to commit "wholesale" murder by carrying out bomb attacks last year outside a nightclub in central London and at a packed Scottish airport a day later.

Bilal Abdulla, 29, was part of a small Islamist cell that planned a series of spectacular bombings but turned to a dramatic suicide ram-raid attack on Glasgow Airport when their initial plans failed.

Abdulla, along with accomplice Kafeel Ahmed, had wanted to punish the British people for their country's perceived persecution of Palestinian Muslims and those in Afghanistan and Iraq, Woolwich Crown Court was told.

Prosecutor Jonathan Laidlaw said the men wanted to commit murder on an "indiscriminate and wholesale scale." Their plans only failed because of a mixture of good fortune and technical mistakes which meant the devices didn't explode.

Abdulla was found guilty of conspiracy to murder and conspiracy to cause explosions. His co-accused Jordanian doctor Mohammed Asha, 28, who was accused of providing guidance and funding for the attacks, was cleared of the same charges.

Abdulla will be sentenced at a later stage. Ahmed, an Indian engineer, died of wounds sustained in the attack on Glasgow airport and was not on trial.

In the London attacks, two Mercedes cars packed with gas canisters, fuel containers and nails were driven down from Scotland and left in the busy West End area of the capital in the early hours of June 29, 2007.

One was parked outside Tiger Tiger, a nightclub packed with more than 550 revellers near Piccadilly Circus, while the second was left nearby close to a night bus stop.

For the rest....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/email/idUKTRE4BF37E20081216

[Madeline]

If the following link has been provided and I have missed it, I beg forgiveness.
It is a blatant call to resist the law of a host Country, yes? Who cares to comment? Peace loving Muslims?


Islamic radicals make mockery of hate laws
David Cohen
10.11.08

JUST days after Home Secretary Jacqui Smith announced tough new measures to name and shame foreign-based extremists and prevent them coming from abroad to stir up hatred in the UK, firebrand preacher Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad cocked a snook at her new initiative, the Evening Standard can reveal.

More than 200 Muslims at a packed public meeting in Tower Hamlets were told by organiser Anjem Choudary: "We have a special surprise, a special treat for you. Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad will be joining us on a live feed from Lebanon." He added: "As Muslims, we will not submit to any man-made law, any government, or any prime minister - Bush or Brown - or [to] Jacqui Smith. We submit to Allah."

Choudary, who with Bakri led the fanatical Al-Muhajiroun organisation - notorious for its glorification of terrorism and the 9/11 attacks before its banning and dissolution in 2004 -warmed up the crowd, two Sundays ago, with his own inflammatory rhetoric.

"It is our religious obligation to prepare ourselves both physically and mentally and rise up against Muslim oppression and take what is rightfully ours," he said. "Jihad is a duty and a struggle and an obligation that lies upon the shoulders of us all. We will not rest until the flag of Allah and the flag of Islam is raised above 10 Downing Street."

To loud cheers of "Allah Akbar" [God is great], he railed: "There are three types of Muslims, those in prison, those of us that are on our way [to prison] and non-practising Muslims. Brothers and sisters, if you do not fear your home being raided by the Kufar [non-believer] police, you are not enforcing the Sharia."

Later, in front of a huge banner that exhorted "Muslims rise against British oppression", he introduced the star turn, 50-year-old Omar Bakri, who was standing by in Lebanon. A giant screen, six-feet high and six-feet wide, had been set up to project the image of the extremist known as "the Tottenham Ayatollah". He was refused re-entry to the UK in 2005 as "not conducive to the public good" after vowing that Muslims would "give the West a 9/11 day after day after day".

But when a problem with the live internet video feed failed to yield a picture, Mr Choudary phoned his colleague from the stage and put the receiver to the microphone. The connection was loud and clear and Bakri spoke for 15 minutes.

Apart from a group of elders with long groomed white beards sitting in the front row, most of the 200 men in attendance were Muslims in their late teens or early 20s, mostly dressed in shalwar kameez with westernised accessories - trainers, hoodies and jackets. At the back of the hall, segregated by partitions, were more than 50 women wearing burkhas.

"Do not obey the British law," Bakri told them. He praised his hero Osama bin Laden for being a warrior and exclaimed: "We must fight and die for Islam - this is the map and road to Jennah [heaven]." He said that Muslims did not need to obey man-made laws and that if anyone ordered them to, they should say they are Muslims "loud and proud". He branded the new anti-extremist laws "crazy".....more
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23584232-details/Islamic%20radicals%20make%20mockery%20of%20hate%20 laws/article.do

[Madeline]

I suppose I really wasn't enthusiastic enough. You propose? Every Muslim in the country gets deported? Collective punishment seems to be a common thread around here.

BTW, here's a follow up.

Muslims break taboo to allow guide dog into mosque


The MCB reexamined the rules on dogs after incidents in which Muslim restaurant owners and taxi drivers refused customers with guide dogs. In June Sallahaddin Abdullah was fined £200 in Cambridge after he refused to allow a blind couple into his taxi because they had a guide dog.

The MCB issued a ruling after saying British Muslims should allow guide dogs to enter restaurants and taxis.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3087362.ece

Self serving comes to mind. My apologies, but what took so long, and what does the fact that a Muslim is allowed to bring a non slobbering dog into a Mosque have to do with Sharia law in a host Country? Brits love their puppies, so they should be allowed anywhere in Britain, no?

[Steven]

If the following link has been provided and I have missed it, I beg forgiveness.
It is a blatant call to resist the law of a host Country, yes? Who cares to comment? Peace loving Muslims?


Islamic radicals make mockery of hate laws
David Cohen
10.11.08

JUST days after Home Secretary Jacqui Smith announced tough new measures to name and shame foreign-based extremists and prevent them coming from abroad to stir up hatred in the UK, firebrand preacher Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad cocked a snook at her new initiative, the Evening Standard can reveal.

More than 200 Muslims at a packed public meeting in Tower Hamlets were told by organiser Anjem Choudary: "We have a special surprise, a special treat for you. Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad will be joining us on a live feed from Lebanon." He added: "As Muslims, we will not submit to any man-made law, any government, or any prime minister - Bush or Brown - or [to] Jacqui Smith. We submit to Allah."

Choudary, who with Bakri led the fanatical Al-Muhajiroun organisation - notorious for its glorification of terrorism and the 9/11 attacks before its banning and dissolution in 2004 -warmed up the crowd, two Sundays ago, with his own inflammatory rhetoric.

"It is our religious obligation to prepare ourselves both physically and mentally and rise up against Muslim oppression and take what is rightfully ours," he said. "Jihad is a duty and a struggle and an obligation that lies upon the shoulders of us all. We will not rest until the flag of Allah and the flag of Islam is raised above 10 Downing Street."

To loud cheers of "Allah Akbar" [God is great], he railed: "There are three types of Muslims, those in prison, those of us that are on our way [to prison] and non-practising Muslims. Brothers and sisters, if you do not fear your home being raided by the Kufar [non-believer] police, you are not enforcing the Sharia."

Later, in front of a huge banner that exhorted "Muslims rise against British oppression", he introduced the star turn, 50-year-old Omar Bakri, who was standing by in Lebanon. A giant screen, six-feet high and six-feet wide, had been set up to project the image of the extremist known as "the Tottenham Ayatollah". He was refused re-entry to the UK in 2005 as "not conducive to the public good" after vowing that Muslims would "give the West a 9/11 day after day after day".

But when a problem with the live internet video feed failed to yield a picture, Mr Choudary phoned his colleague from the stage and put the receiver to the microphone. The connection was loud and clear and Bakri spoke for 15 minutes.

Apart from a group of elders with long groomed white beards sitting in the front row, most of the 200 men in attendance were Muslims in their late teens or early 20s, mostly dressed in shalwar kameez with westernised accessories - trainers, hoodies and jackets. At the back of the hall, segregated by partitions, were more than 50 women wearing burkhas.

"Do not obey the British law," Bakri told them. He praised his hero Osama bin Laden for being a warrior and exclaimed: "We must fight and die for Islam - this is the map and road to Jennah [heaven]." He said that Muslims did not need to obey man-made laws and that if anyone ordered them to, they should say they are Muslims "loud and proud". He branded the new anti-extremist laws "crazy".....more
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23584232-details/Islamic%20radicals%20make%20mockery%20of%20hate%20 laws/article.do

Choudary should of been hung for treason a long time ago. He has also called for war within the UK and has branded Christmas as evil.

[andak01]

Self serving comes to mind. My apologies, but what took so long, and what does the fact that a Muslim is allowed to bring a non slobbering dog into a Mosque have to do with Sharia law in a host Country? Brits love their puppies, so they should be allowed anywhere in Britain, no?

I already posted the point.

The MCB issued a ruling after saying British Muslims should allow guide dogs to enter restaurants and taxis.

Do you disagree with that? I'm getting here that Muslims should speak out against extremists who don't allow dogs into restaurants and taxis. Now I have a Muslim source that is interpreting Islamic law to tell Muslims that such a thing is permissible and all anyone can do is criticize the messenger. So since you are saying: "Brits love their puppies, so they should be allowed anywhere in Britain, no?" and the MCB is also saying that they should be allowed in restaurants and taxis, I don't see what is so offensive.

The fact is there are many restaurants, hotels and other places that don't allow dogs with the exception of seeing eye dogs. That has nothing to do with whether they are Muslim or not and it doesn't make the international news. It wasn't as if there was no price for those that forbid the dog in the restaurant. They will probably lose a lot of business as well as being sued.

[Steven]

I already posted the point.

The MCB issued a ruling after saying British Muslims should allow guide dogs to enter restaurants and taxis.

Do you disagree with that? I'm getting here that Muslims should speak out against extremists who don't allow dogs into restaurants and taxis. Now I have a Muslim source that is interpreting Islamic law to tell Muslims that such a thing is permissible and all anyone can do is criticize the messenger. So since you are saying: "Brits love their puppies, so they should be allowed anywhere in Britain, no?" and the MCB is also saying that they should be allowed in restaurants and taxis, I don't see what is so offensive.

Not working. The dog issue does not come up much and the MCB is an "extremist" group.


http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=281420&postcount=182

[Steven]

So then, the answer is no. Non-Muslims aren't subjected to any rulings of any Sharia court in the UK. And no cases of theft in the have ended in the loss of a hand. Thank you. Why should we distinguish between things that haven't happened and never will and things that have and do? In the interest of accuracy. The existance of a cliff doesn't necessitate a crash. We can acknowledge the existance of the cliff without getting hysterical. If there is a Shariah tribunal that is breaking the laws of England, they should be shut down. But family law, weddings, funerals, wills is practiced by other religions and has been for generations. I personally know a man who specializes in Catholic anullments. The laws of England of course should always supercede what happens at those councils and no criminal cases whatsoever should be tried there.

No one here is hysterical and stop saying we, I see no one siding with you. The door for sharia has been opened and no matter what you say, we can see past the day that we are in. Other religions are not looking to impose on the UK and sharia courts have already started with criminal cases of domestic vilolence.

Tell me though, what do you propose? Shariah be stricken from all languages? Everyone breathing the word gets arrested?

Make sharia illegal and deport or arrest anyone who wants it.

[andak01]

Make sharia illegal and deport or arrest anyone who wants it.

Good to know you don't differentiate between people who don't eat pork and pray 5 times per day and those who want to install a sharia government. OK, you're with Newsguy that Islam should be outlawed.

If someone wants to subvert the government, I agree, there should be laws against that. But if someone wants to get an Islamic divorce or doesn't want to drink alcohol or a woman of her own free will wants to wear a hijab, well that's also Sharia. So why don't you cut to the chase and say what you really want instead of beating about the bush. It's OK for Muslims to remain in the West so long as we don't actually practice Islam. And it's OK for neo-Nazis like the BNP and Vlaams Belang to preach hatred against Muslims so long as they keep away from the Jews.

Well I hope that reasonable Muslims and Jews will see that we have a common enemy in these xenophobic neandrathals. Backing ultra-rightwing facists is not the solution to extremism any more than giving a free ride to Islamists who want to destabilize Western governments.

[Steven]

Good to know you don't differentiate between people who don't eat pork and pray 5 times per day and those who want to install a sharia government. OK, you're with Newsguy that Islam should be outlawed.

When it comes to Muslim immigration the bad by far out weighs the good and not ONE country has been able to sort out the bad from the good. I have no problem with Newsguy idea. I view Islam in the same category as the KKK. What you think about me is absolutely meaningless.


If someone wants to subvert the government, I agree, there should be laws against that. But if someone wants to get an Islamic divorce or doesn't want to drink alcohol or a woman of her own free will wants to wear a hijab, well that's also Sharia. So why don't you cut to the chase and say what you really want instead of beating about the bush. It's OK for Muslims to remain in the West so long as we don't actually practice Islam. And it's OK for neo-Nazis like the BNP and Vlaams Belang to preach hatred against Muslims so long as they keep away from the Jews.

I do not beat around the bush, unlike you you I am straight forward. I want the entire West to end all Muslim immigration including students visas. I do not blame anyone for speaking out against Islam. Muslims in Europe deserve it.

Well I hope that reasonable Muslims and Jews will see that we have a common enemy in these xenophobic neandrathals. Backing ultra-rightwing facists is not the solution to extremism.

Your attempts to switch things around will not work. What has been done for 1400 years has not worked. Now the hate has spread across the world, it is time to change gears. I do not see the Jews on this forum siding with you at all.



French terrorism police question 7 around Paris
By JOHN LEICESTER – 3 hours ago
PARIS (AP) — France's domestic counterterrorism agency arrested seven people around Paris and was questioning them Tuesday on suspicion that some may have been planning an attack, a police official said.
The arrests were not linked to the discovery Tuesday of explosives in a Paris department store, nor were they tied to suspected al-Qaida-linked extremists detained last week in Belgium, said the official. She spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to discuss the case publicly.
The principal suspect arrested Tuesday, who is French, was already known to the French domestic intelligence agency, while the others in detention were regarded as "accessories" — including family and friends, the official said. Some are of North Africa origin.
The official said French authorities believe the main suspect "intended to commit an action, probably in France," although it wasn't exactly clear what the action might be.
The official described the arrests as "preventive" and said police hoped to learn more through questioning.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hQ3ezyjTzP-AMxoEs8FZmUavGSHgD953VJ5O1


Xenophobia is an intense dislike and/or fear of people from other countries.

Non-Muslims have every right to fear the Islamic community. Try and get some better talking points.

[Madeline]

The following is an interesting news article. I highlighted some important portions.

The Campaign Against Sharia
By Deborah Weiss
FrontPageMagazine.com | Tuesday, December 16, 2008

Last year, the UK began backing up Sharia judgments with the full force and authority of British civil courts. Now, a campaign has been launched to end the operation of all religious courts in Britain --- especially those operating under Islam.

Dubbed “One Law for All”, the campaign commenced not coincidently on December 10, 2008, the 60th anniversary of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Promoters of the No Sharia Campaign wanted to highlight the contrast between human rights and Sharia law.

In 2007, Sheik Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi discovered a clause in the Arbitration Act of 1996 that he rightly believed he could take advantage of. Under this Act, Sharia courts could be classified as arbitral tribunals. Rulings issued in arbitration are binding by law so long as both parties consent. Siddiqi now heads the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, which runs the British Sharia courts.

To date, British Sharia courts have heard over 100 cases issuing legally enforceable judgments. They deal with disputes involving divorce, inheritance and other civil issues as well as “small criminal cases” such as domestic violence. There is a network of five Sharia courts that have been conferred the full power of the judicial system through the county or high courts. Two additional such courts are planned. However, there is evidence that there are many more Sharia courts operating in the UK than those which have been publicly acknowledged.

Sharia courts have operated in Britain for years. But previously they relied on voluntary adherence to rulings and their judgments were not legally enforceable. Enforcement of Sharia court judgments took effect one year after the Archbishop of Canterbury caused a major controversy by declaring that formal recognition of Sharia law “seemed inevitable.” Numerous politicians have expressed concern that the formal backing of Sharia courts marks the beginning of a parallel legal system based on Sharia law, such as exists in Lebanon. Dominic Grieve, shadow home secretary, made clear that he considers the court enforcement of Sharia judgments to be illegal. He emphatically declared that British law is absolute and must remain so. Others agree that Sharia judgments should not be encouraged or enforced by the British courts.

There are numerous problems posed by the official backing of sharia judgements. First, arbitration is permissible only when both parties consent. Evidence shows that in some families and within the Islamic ummah (community), many women are intimidated into submitting to Sharia arbitration and are not truly there based on free will.

Second, the Sharia courts treat men and women very disparately. For example, in inheritance cases, they award the sons twice as much as the daughters. By contrast, British courts award sons and daughters equal amounts. Indeed, the enforcement of Sharia courts was defeated in Canada by Muslim women who complained that they came to Canada to escape the oppression of Sharia meted out in their countries of origin.

Third, the UK has been unsuccessful at integrating Muslims into mainstream society. Sharia courts undermine the efforts of moderate Muslims to assimilate, and make it more difficult for them to come to an understanding of Islam that is tolerant and pluralistic.

Finally, a Civita study demonstrates a correlation between Sharia courts and honor killings. While there is no evidence that the courts have ordered murders or beatings, the fact that men are given extreme rights and power over their wives and daughters creates a strong risk that the legitimized control contributes to the exercise of that control through violence.

The underlying principle in allowing parties to consent to arbitration is that they should have the freedom to contract. Parties who consent to arbitration waive their rights to a judge or a jury. Therefore, it is imperative to ensure that those who enter into such agreements are truly doing so voluntarily. When they do, arbitration is often a more efficient method to resolve disputes than engaging in long drawn out litigation in court.

Some Muslims argue that so long as there are Beth Din courts (Jewish religious tribunals), Sharia courts must also be permitted. However, there are some notable distinctions. Looking around the globe, there is no evidence that Jews are trying to impose their religious beliefs on others through violence or intimidation. Nor are they promoting the notion of Jewish supremacy. On the contrary, they don’t even believe in proselytizing to non-Jews, and explicitly adhere to the rule that they must abide by the official laws of the country in which they reside. By contrast, there are several radical Islamist movements that are working hard to spread Islamic supremacy through the use of terrorism, intimidation, litigation and disinformation campaigns. In many Muslim majority countries, Muslims and non-Muslims are deemed unequal, the latter being treated as second class citizens. Some of these nations are trying to expand their oppressive laws to other lands through creative legal instruments. A parallel legal system utilizing Sharia courts is likely to constitute one step toward expanding political Islam, rather than serving as the final request for a religious accommodation. Unlike other religions which adhere to the notion of separation of religion and state, Sharia law by definition, embodies a whole way of life. It merges the political and the spiritual. Its goal is to replace democracies with Islamic theocracies......
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=0ED97C88-3537-49F8-B858-3A8936708BAB

[Phoenicia]

Britain surrendered to Islamism along time ago as did several other European states.

Shariah law strongly discriminates against women (amongst others) but in the case of women and in a country like England where womens rights are protected, it highly contradicts itself!

Masalem O Britainistan!

[codedvirus]

Good to know you don't differentiate between people who don't eat pork and pray 5 times per day and those who want to install a sharia government. OK, you're with Newsguy that Islam should be outlawed.

If someone wants to subvert the government, I agree, there should be laws against that. But if someone wants to get an Islamic divorce or doesn't want to drink alcohol or a woman of her own free will wants to wear a hijab, well that's also Sharia. So why don't you cut to the chase and say what you really want instead of beating about the bush. It's OK for Muslims to remain in the West so long as we don't actually practice Islam. And it's OK for neo-Nazis like the BNP and Vlaams Belang to preach hatred against Muslims so long as they keep away from the Jews.

Well I hope that reasonable Muslims and Jews will see that we have a common enemy in these xenophobic neandrathals. Backing ultra-rightwing facists is not the solution to extremism any more than giving a free ride to Islamists who want to destabilize Western governments.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?no=subj&articleid=20080708_222_A18_spancl127995&archive=yes

An Islamic system of religious apartheid begun in the 7th century that forces all other religions and cultures to accept an inferior status once Muslims become the majority.

Maryland’s Court of Appeals recently denied a Sharia divorce to a Pakistani man. The man’s wife of 20 years had filed for divorce. To circumvent having to share their $2 million estate and other marital assets, he went to the Pakistani embassy and applied for an Islamic divorce. The man wanted to invoke what is known as talaq, in which the husband says, “I divorce you” three times and it’s done.
The Maryland court said, “If we were to arm the use of talaq, controlled as it is by the husband, a wife, a resident of this state, would never be able to consummate a divorce action filed by her in which she seeks a division of marital property” and the talaq “directly deprives the wife of the due process she is entitled to when she initiates divorce litigation. The lack and deprivation of due process is itself contrary to (Maryland’s) public policy.”

British Muslims who wish to live under Sharia law might have stayed in the countries from which they came — or return to them. But their objective appears to be domination of England, not assimilation. This also seems to be the goal for Muslims in other countries with large and growing Muslim populations.

There is no due process under Sharia law. Phillips has signed the death warrant for his nation if his opinion becomes the law of England.

It's one thing to fight a war and lose it. It's quite another to willingly surrender without a struggle.

[Steven]

Metropolitan Police humiliated at the hands of Muslim demonstrators in London 1/2

The entire world will suffer because of Muslim immmigration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97hyDRjdXCE

[Aviva]

Metropolitan Police humiliated at the hands of Muslim demonstrators in London 1/2

The entire world will suffer because of Muslim immmigration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97hyDRjdXCE

This is a really sickening video of one of those demonstrations outside the London Israeli embassy. Clearly it's being thoroughly hijacked by aggressive yobs and thugs. I can't believe how they're treating the police.

BUT, the video maker was the BNP. Obviously, they hate Jews too, despite how they've tried to change their image in recent years.

[Steven]

This is a really sickening video of one of those demonstrations outside the London Israeli embassy. Clearly it's being thoroughly hijacked by aggressive yobs and thugs. I can't believe how they're treating the police.

That is how they will treat everyone once they get in power.


BUT, the video maker was the BNP. Obviously, they hate Jews too, despite how they've tried to change their image in recent years.

But who made the video is not the issue, the content of video is what is important. How much longer will Brits just sit their silently?

[andak01]

But who made the video is not the issue, the content of video is what is important. How much longer will Brits just sit their silently?

And would who made the video be important if it was Al Jezeera instead of your pals at the BNP?

[Steven]

And would who made the video be important if it was Al Jezeera instead of your pals at the BNP?

Your attempt to create a distraction of the sickening actions of your Muslim brothers in the video will not work. Muslim immigration is destroying Europe. Thankfully Italy has started talking about deportations.

[Aviva]

But who made the video is not the issue, the content of video is what is important. How much longer will Brits just sit their silently?

I agree that the video speaks for itself and the comments I read below it were reasonable ones, (rather than racist ones).

I have no idea what has happened to British society and no idea why no one except for this political party of erstwhile hardened skinheads will really address these issues. Everyone in the UK just looks the other way now, largely because there are so many Muslims here. Any criticism of this kind of behaviour will get challenged by vociferous Muslim groups and wet liberals who strongly support people of colour, irrelevant of their actions.

[Steven]

I agree that the video speaks for itself and the comments I read below it were reasonable ones, (rather than racist ones).

I have no idea what has happened to British society and no idea why no one except for this political party of erstwhile hardened skinheads will really address these issues. Everyone in the UK just looks the other way now, largely because there are so many Muslims here. Any criticism of this kind of behaviour will get challenged by vociferous Muslim groups and wet liberals who strongly support people of colour, irrelevant of their actions.



There are only 2 million Muslims there vs. 60 million non-Muslims. Yes the leftists are a huge part of this problem, they are too stupid to see past the day that they are in.

[Aviva]

There are only 2 million Muslims there vs. 60 million non-Muslims. Yes the leftists are a huge part of this problem, they are too stupid to see past the day that they are in.

Yes, it's a small community statistically, but living in a city, it seems much larger. Muslim issues seem very prevalent in daily life in the major cities and often dominate the news.

I don't know what the answer is for Britain; it's had a leftist government for a long time now and most people, especially young people, are so used to that that I can't see it changing in the near future.

[Steven]

Yes, it's a small community statistically, but living in a city, it seems much larger. Muslims issues seem to be very prevalent in daily life in the major cities and are often in the news.

They are very pushy. The Koran tells them that they can defeat an army 10X their size. If they ever hit 10% of the population there look out.


I don't know what the answer is for Britain; it's had a leftist government for a long time now and most people, especially young people, are so used to that that I can't see it changing in the near future.

Yet people here voted in Obama who is going to try everything that has failed in the UK.

[kozzol]

Thank you steven for the link and once again it shows how the mohammediens resort to violence when they want everyone else to agree with them and once again it shows how dangerous this religion actually is.

At times like that I only wish Maggie Thatcher was back in power as she would not have tolerated the police being abused.

[Aviva]

At times like that I only wish Maggie Thatcher was back in power as she would not have tolerated the police being abused.

I agree, Kozzol. Britain needs a hard leader now, a Churchill or even a Thatcher, much as people disliked Thatcher. We need someone who really doesn't take any crap and is courageous enough to say "no".

But I think things will have to get a lot worse before the general population agrees with us. All of our current politicians are useless.

[Madeline]

And would who made the video be important if it was Al Jezeera instead of your pals at the BNP?

I must agree with Steven, Andak. Your comment distracts from the real issue at hand.

[Sharona]

In the UK we have Parliament and the House of Lords.

Apparently, a member of the Lords was going to invite Geert Wilders to a private meeting . She intended to invite others in order to view the film documentary 'Fitna', followed by a discussion and a debate - as is the way of things in Parliament.

Lord Ahmed, however, objected. He said he would rouse 10,000 muslims to prevent Wilders entering Westminster and would take his colleague to court.

The proposed meeting has now been cancelled.

My understanding is that 'Fitna' is about the extremist preachers of hate - a subject of great concern to us all. If I am correct in my understanding then Lord Ahmed should be as concerned as the rest of us. Threats of 10,000 muslims and court proceedings will simply make the population wonder why he is apparently 'pro' these creatures of hatred.

The ability to prevent debate and discussion is one privilege too far, Lord Ahmed.

[Sharona]

Sorry - I should have put in a link.

The information is taken from a well-regarded blogger called 'Cranmer'.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2009/01/lord-ahmed-threatens-parliament-into.html

I wonder if the BBC will air this story?

[Madeline]

In the UK we have Parliament and the House of Lords.

Apparently, a member of the Lords was going to invite Geert Wilders to a private meeting . She intended to invite others in order to view the film documentary 'Fitna', followed by a discussion and a debate - as is the way of things in Parliament.

Lord Ahmed, however, objected. He said he would rouse 10,000 muslims to prevent Wilders entering Westminster and would take his colleague to court.

The proposed meeting has now been cancelled.

My understanding is that 'Fitna' is about the extremist preachers of hate - a subject of great concern to us all. If I am correct in my understanding then Lord Ahmed should be as concerned as the rest of us. Threats of 10,000 muslims and court proceedings will simply make the population wonder why he is apparently 'pro' these creatures of hatred.

The ability to prevent debate and discussion is one privilege too far, Lord Ahmed.

Isn't that an open thread? Why is no one speaking up on this?

[Steven]

Thank you steven for the link and once again it shows how the mohammediens resort to violence when they want everyone else to agree with them and once again it shows how dangerous this religion actually is.

At times like that I only wish Maggie Thatcher was back in power as she would not have tolerated the police being abused.

Your welcome Koz, Muslim immigration is a threat to our future generations.

[Sharona]

Isn't that an open thread? Why is no one speaking up on this?

Probably because they don't know, Madeline.

I've checked the BBC and ITN website news and this information is not on there. The way most people will hear about this development is via TV stations - and perhaps on the radio - but I haven't listened to it yet. Having said that, I am not the greatest TV watcher so don't have Sky or any other satellite/cable connection.

Cranmer is a highly-regarded blogger and his site mentions comments from MP's - if he wasn't so reliable I wouldn't have felt happy in posting the information. However, in relative terms I doubt many get their news from him or others like him. They rely on TV and radio.

If the BBC remains quiet on this - well, words fail me.

[Madeline]

Probably because they don't know, Madeline.

I've checked the BBC and ITN website news and this information is not on there. The way most people will hear about this development is via TV stations - and perhaps on the radio - but I haven't listened to it yet. Having said that, I am not the greatest TV watcher so don't have Sky or any other satellite/cable connection.

Cranmer is a highly-regarded blogger and his site mentions comments from MP's - if he wasn't so reliable I wouldn't have felt happy in posting the information. However, in relative terms I doubt many get their news from him or others like him. They rely on TV and radio.

If the BBC remains quiet on this - well, words fail me.
Sorry about misspelling threat, and thank you for responding.
So it is the same as here. MSM reporting what they feel like, instead of reporting facts. It really does sound like...well, a threat, and, just like here, the cowards bow to it.

[kozzol]

andak01 wrote
And would who made the video be important if it was Al Jezeera instead of your pals at the BNP?

I was not aware that steven has links to the BNP which I must admit comes as a shock to me.

Thank you for the link Sharona and again it shows how the mohammediens when they want something they maninuplate the out come by inuendo's of violence or just blantantly use it.

[Steven]

I was not aware that steven has links to the BNP which I must admit comes as a shock to me.

Thank you for the link Sharona and again it shows how the mohammediens when they want something they maninuplate the out come by inuendo's of violence or just blantantly use it.

A reader sent me the link from YouTube under the embedded code, I had no idea who posted it on YouTube. Who filmed the video does not matter, what the video contains is what matters. The board Islamist is just trying to get the focus off of his Muslim brothers as usual. If you noticed he did not say a word about the actions of the Muslims in the video.

[kozzol]

Of course he hasent because as usual mohammediens will stand up for their fellow mohammediens, even when they are using violence as a form of getting what they want.

[varian]

Sharia may be good for most Muslims, but it would most likely not bode well for dhimmis, especially given today's climate of cultural conflict. Below is a video from last fall in the UK that correlates well with the recent anti-Israel rallies in the US. The evil is palpable!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk-MaIevRXA

[Steven]

The good news is that the video of the Muslims threatening the police made it to the UK media. Hopefully it will wake some people up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133120/Police-ran-away-jeering-Gaza-demonstrators.html

[Sharona]

I posted recently about Lord Ahmed threatning to rouse 10,000 muslims to prevent Geert Wilders entering the Houses of Parliament to discuss his controversial film 'Fitna'. Lord Ahmed also threatened to initiate court proceedings against the member who had issued the invitation to Wilders. He is reported in the Pakistani press as declaring his success at squashing Wilder's visit as a 'Victory for the Muslim community'.

Firstly, as a peer of the Realm, Lord Ahmed should be supporting ALL communities within the UK - not just one. Secondly, quite how he believes the sight of 10,000 muslims up in arms against freedom of speech is going to promote a) community cohesion b) the views of the majority - moderate muslims and non-muslims c) the security of ALL citizens and d) the foolishness of voting for the BNP - is quite beyond me.


Had he mustered 10,000 to march peacefully against earlier demonstrations in which young men with covered faces carried banners declaring jihad on the UK and the West - he might have had been seen to truly want 'victory' - at least, if we are talking about defeating extremism in the UK.

Anyway - the decision made in the House of Lords to support Ahmed's opposition has now been overturned and the invitation to Geert Wilders has been re-issued.

'Fitna' will be screened privately (Lord Ahmed had no need to fear that it was about to go into cinemas around the UK) and questions will be asked of Wilders. Freedom of Speech will therefore allow members of the House to make up their own minds as to its content.

[kozzol]

At least they came to their senses on this issue and have re-issued the invitation, so lets hope that it is a sign of the powers that be are now becoming sick and tired of the constant bullying of the mohammediens in the Uk, when they dont like something.

[Sharona]

The man is a fool. His actions do nothing to safeguard the people of the UK nor the moderate muslims. In fact, he appears to be working against the best interests of the very community he seeks to claim a 'victory' for.

Had he gone through the proper channels or expressed his concerns in a sensible manner, his point would have been made and action - if necessary - could have been taken.

Instead, the foolish man threated mob action and litigation. Is this the image he wishes the public to have of a leader of the community he seeks to support?

Apparently, Ahmed has a court case pending. I believe it's a driving offence but one serious enough to merit a custodial sentence. The problem is that it has been postponed twice - giving the impression that the courts are nervous of dealing with him. Perhaps that's just the impression, though, and there are genuine reasons behind the two postponements.

[Steven]

We should never vote Muslims into office.

[Sharona]

Well, it is a democracy, Steven.:)

The Lord's are not democratically elected people - they are given their peerages for various reasons.

Some believe this to be a bad thing but I have seen the Lord's overturn some really damaging socialist policies proposed by the elected House of Commons.

When you are an elected member, it is often the case that an MP will vote or speak in whichever way he or she thinks will help him/her retain a seat in the next election - regardless of whether that is right for the UK in general. It has led to members in areas highly populated by various groups (ethnic or social) to jump on soapboxes that I'm not sure they even believe to be sound. Anything to get the vote.

Then there are issues such as 'Cash for Questions' - in short, bribery.


At least in the Lords there is no seat to be retained.

[Steven]

Well, it is a democracy, Steven.:)

The Lord's are not democratically elected people - they are given their peerages for various reasons.

Some believe this to be a bad thing but I have seen the Lord's overturn some really damaging socialist policies proposed by the elected House of Commons.

When you are an elected member, it is often the case that an MP will vote or speak in whichever way he or she thinks will help him/her retain a seat in the next election - regardless of whether that is right for the UK in general. It has led to members in areas highly populated by various groups (ethnic or social) to jump on soapboxes that I'm not sure they even believe to be sound. Anything to get the vote.

Then there are issues such as 'Cash for Questions' - in short, bribery.


At least in the Lords there is no seat to be retained.

It is the same thing here, they do not care about anything but getting the vote, no matter how much their policies hurt the country.

[Steven]

Non-Muslims begin to fight back


Halal meat taken off school menu after race row
Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 07:00


Old Palace School is no longer serving Halal meat on its school menu after parents complained.

The Whitgift Foundation's John Whitgift Schools committee took the decision after some parents were furious pupils were not being given a choice.

The Halal method, in which animals are slaughtered by a single slit to the throat, is the only was of killing livestock allowed under Islam.

But the method is deemed cruel by some animal-lovers, who object to the slow death it involves.

In a letter to parents, after taking advice from religious leaders, chair of the committee Rosemary Jones said: "We have decided that Halal meat should no longer be served to our pupils in line with what we understand is the general policy adopted by multi-faith schools.


"We shall continue to offer a hot vegetarian option and an extensive range of cold salads as an alternative meal for those pupils choosing not to eat non-Halal meat."

The menu was changed in November after the Advertiser revealed some parents had no idea the policy had been in force at Old Palace for up to 10 years.

Parents furious about the Halal policy were from the recently amalgamated Croham Hurst School and were labelled "racist bigots" by Old Palace spokeswoman Lucy Mazzeo.

Mrs Jones added in the letter: "We are very sorry for any anxiety or offence that may have been caused by this issue or by the recent articles and letters published in the local media.

"As a Christian Foundation, we celebrate the diversity of all the cultural and religious groups attending our schools."

Old Palace refused to answer further questions on the decision.


http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/latestnews/Halal-meat-taken-school-menu-race-row/article-629312-detail/article.html

[kozzol]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1583666/No-more-mosques%2C-says-senior-Synod-member.html

You will see from this link that sharia law is not yet being used in the UK and that Alison Ruoff is concerned that the UK can goe down this road if we keep allowing the mohammediens to get a firm foot hold in the UK with their constant building of mosque.

[andak01]

But the method is deemed cruel by some animal-lovers, who object to the slow death it involves.

You don't know what you are talking about. The method is the same as that used for Kosher slaughter. The animal can't even feel the wound because of the sharpness of the knife. The slaughter area has to be completely cleaned of any blood from previous slaughtering so that the animal neither smells nor senses what's about to happen. Death is immediate caused by asphixiation at sudden loss of blood. The animal passes out without feeling a thing.

I see you aren't railing about Kosher slaughter, and I wonder if the children would make an international stink about being fed Kosher food, or for that matter Kosher pickles, which they probably eat already.

[Steven]

You don't know what you are talking about. The method is the same as that used for Kosher slaughter. The animal can't even feel the wound because of the sharpness of the knife. The slaughter area has to be completely cleaned of any blood from previous slaughtering so that the animal neither smells nor senses what's about to happen. Death is immediate caused by asphixiation at sudden loss of blood. The animal passes out without feeling a thing.

I see you aren't railing about Kosher slaughter, and I wonder if the children would make an international stink about being fed Kosher food, or for that matter Kosher pickles, which they probably eat already.

I did not write that part and I am happy that it was taken off of the menu.

One more time for the blind Islamist. Jews are not looking to force their religion on the world.
People are sick of Islam.

[kozzol]

The Whitgift Foundation's John Whitgift Schools committee took the decision after some parents were furious pupils were not being given a choice.

I think that is what the real stink is about, the fact that as soon as mohammediens are concerned in any thing the powers that be tend to jump without asking others first.

Mohammediens and the people who push down peoples throats this crap of political correctness create their own problems.

[andak01]

I did not write that part and I am happy that it was taken off of the menu.

Why? It's just meat for gosh sake. We make hamburgers and meatloaf from it. Would you be just as happy if I boycotted Kosher food becuase Jews make it? BTW, my wife and I look for the Kosher label often and prefer it.

[codedvirus]

You don't know what you are talking about. The method is the same as that used for Kosher slaughter. The animal can't even feel the wound because of the sharpness of the knife. The slaughter area has to be completely cleaned of any blood from previous slaughtering so that the animal neither smells nor senses what's about to happen. Death is immediate caused by asphixiation at sudden loss of blood. The animal passes out without feeling a thing.

I see you aren't railing about Kosher slaughter, and I wonder if the children would make an international stink about being fed Kosher food, or for that matter Kosher pickles, which they probably eat already.

The main point overe here is Muslims want everything in their own way. Muslims want to make a issue out of everything.

Muslims behead animals and humans in the same way. Very gentle. You will not even feel the pain.

[andak01]

Mohammediens and the people who push down peoples throats this crap of political correctness create their own problems.

For what it's worth, Mohammdiens is as offensive as a word that starts with a K used to describe Jews. I'm sure you intend that offense.

[kozzol]

For what it's worth, Mohammdiens is as offensive as a word that starts with a K used to describe Jews. I'm sure you intend that offense.


Why is that exactly?

[Steven]

Why? It's just meat for gosh sake. We make hamburgers and meatloaf from it. Would you be just as happy if I boycotted Kosher food becuase Jews make it? BTW, my wife and I look for the Kosher label often and prefer it.

The whole school was forced to eat it and Muslims are clearly looking to impose Islam on the UK. So they should not be catered to at all. I really do not care about your personal life.

Andak stop whining about what offends you, no one is forcing you to send your life here.

[codedvirus]

November 2008
LONDON - Over 5,000 butchers from Pakistan would get employment in the halal meat industry of UK through Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed between National Halal Foods Group (NHFG) of UK and Overseas Employment Cooperation of Pakistan. The MoU has been signed here at the Pakistan High Commission, London Friday.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Inventive Fundraising

Al-Qaeda's self-financing cells in Europe have become increasingly creative in their fundraising methods, officials said.

After the July 2005 London transit bombings, police knocked on the door of a sheep farmer in Scotland to inquire about a livestock deal gone sour. The farmer, Blair Duffton, confirmed that he had lost more than $200,000 when he sent several truckloads of sheep to a slaughterhouse in Leeds, England, but never received payment.

The slaughterhouse specialized in halal meat, or food prepared according to Islamic law. Detectives informed Duffton that the person who had stiffed him for the sheep was an associate of Shehzad Tanweer, one of three bombers who had lived in Leeds.

"I almost went bankrupt," Duffton recalled in a telephone interview. "I couldn't believe it when they told me that this might have been connected to terrorism."
-------------------------------------------------------

[Aviva]

BTW, my wife and I look for the Kosher label often and prefer it.

But surely this is simply because kosher meat passes (actually surpasses) halal standards of the Islamic equivalent of Kashrut; not because of some kind of philo-semitism on your part.

[codedvirus]

Steven they now want everything Hallal Certified.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.petitiononline.com/Hallal/petition.html

Throughout the UK, USA, Europe, Asia and the rest off the world there are numerous Muslim organisations writing to thousands of manufacturers, trying to ascertain whether or not certain products are Halal.

Up until now there has not been anything that the consumer can easily recognise to distinguish Halal products.

Thousands of Mosques across every country have tried to compile their own lists of products. This has resulted in a dilemma for the confused Muslim consumer as Haram products have been bought by mistake.

The time has now come for national and international governments to recognise the Halal Trademark that can then be recognised by manufacturers and consumers alike.

Halal is a vitally essential requirement of our faith and the Halal Trademark Symbol has been designed as a simple and effective way of enabling us, the consumers, to instantly recognise which products are Halal, such as Foods, Drinks, Catering products, Household goods, Cosmetics, Toiletries, Perfumery, Pharmaceuticals, Meat and Poultry.

As Muslims we are a large consumer power and should demand from manufacturers the Halal Symbol, which is our only trusted guarantee.

In order for manufacturers to display the Halal Symbol, they will have to abide by very strict guidelines, laid down by Ulemas (Scholars), Muftis (Jurists) and Food Experts. However, this will not mean that the consumer has to pay more for Halal goods.

We need your “Urgent Support” to ensure that this most fundamental part of our faith is upheld. Together we can make it work and we will succeed Insha-Allah! (With the Will of Allah)

[dayag]

Why is that exactly?

"The term Mohammedan [...] is considered offensive or pejorative to most Muslims since it makes human beings central in their religion, a position which only Allah may occupy."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammedan

[varian]

... Muslims behead animals and humans in the same way. Very gentle. You will not even feel the pain.


Good shot C!!! :p

[kozzol]

andak01 wrote

For what it's worth, Mohammdiens is as offensive as a word that starts with a K used to describe Jews. I'm sure you intend that offense.

Ooops!!!! I can feel a fatwa coming on so best I stop calling the believers and followers of Islam and its prophet mohammed by the name which they were known by as early as 1681 and call them murderers, bigots, propagandist of hate etc.

But if I do that then surely that would be offensive?

So I will stick to calling you mohammediens, believers in Islam and followers of mohammed who without his visions, or whatever one wishes to call them, and teachings there would not be this new religion.

[andak01]

Muslims behead animals and humans in the same way. Very gentle. You will not even feel the pain.

Yeah, nice smear. The fact that Muslims don't use beheading during slaughter any more than anybody else shouldn't matter. The fact that they don't behead sheep and cows during slaughter shouldn't matter. The fact that the first machine for taking off human heads was invented by a French Christian and last used in 1977 shouldn't matter. The fact that the beheaders of Daniel Pearl were sentenced to death by a Muslim judge shouldn't matter. The fact that Daniel Pearl's father is involved with interfaith activities with Muslims shouldn't matter. All that matters is the smear.

[Steven]

Yeah, nice smear. The fact that Muslims don't use beheading during slaughter any more than anybody else shouldn't matter. The fact that the first machine for taking off human heads was invented by a French Christian and last used in 1977 shouldn't matter. The fact that the beheaders of Daniel Pearl were sentenced to death by a Muslim judge shouldn't matter. The fact that Daniel Pearl's father is involved with interfaith activities with Muslims shouldn't matter. All that matters is the smear.

The fact is the Daniel Pearl's father interfaith meetings have changed nothing. Muslims are making a fool of the man.

The fact is that we all see Islam for the major threat that it is and 9000 posts later YOU have changed no ones mind.

Hey maybe you can avoid how political Islam is a threat.....oh you already do that.What a joke.

[andak01]

Steven they now want everything Hallal Certified.

Why not? I support Kosher products. As I recall, there was a stink among vegetarians when they found that fat was used to fry the McDonald's fries. Suppose a Hindu wants to go there. Would they be upset to learn that beef tallow is used in the process? Or what about other products that use animal by-products. Doesn't a person have a right to chose what they put in their mouth and to know how it was prepared?

[andak01]

The fact is the Daniel Pearl's father interfaith meetings have changed nothing. Muslims are making a fool of the man.

Seriously, I have a lot of respect for both him and his son and a lot of hatred for those who killed him and a lot of respect for the Muslims and others involved in bringing them to justice. I realize none of that means anything to you, because you are clueless. Here's a link to the Foundation should anyone wish to donate.

http://www.danielpearl.org/

This posting describes the effort of a courageous and dedicated group of Pakistani Muslims who, inspired by the legacy of Daniel Pearl, have established an Interfaith Forum in Faisalabad, Pakistan, aimed at exploring the commonalities of the two faiths so as to educate a modern, tolerant, moderate and open-minded next generation of Pakistani youngsters promoting respect and tolerance for other faiths.

In the past five years, the Forum has consistently commemorated the anniversary of Danny's murder in candle-lighting ceremonies, lectures about Muslim-Jewish commonalities, and discussions about pluralistic societies. They have also participated in the Daniel Pearl World Music Days, through music, song and magic.


http://www.danielpearl.org/news_and_press/articles/tolerance_in_pakistan.html

[ItsMyJewty]

codevirus: Muslims behead animals and humans in the same way. Very gentle. You will not even feel the pain.

Yes, they seem to enjoy beheading people, don't they? Maybe andak hasn't seen them, but there are videos on the Net...

[Steven]

Seriously, I have a lot of respect for both him and his son and a lot of hatred for those who killed him and a lot of respect for the Muslims and others involved in bringing them to justice. I realize none of that means anything to you, because you are clueless. Here's a link to the Foundation should anyone wish to donate.

http://www.danielpearl.org/

This posting describes the effort of a courageous and dedicated group of Pakistani Muslims who, inspired by the legacy of Daniel Pearl, have established an Interfaith Forum in Faisalabad, Pakistan, aimed at exploring the commonalities of the two faiths so as to educate a modern, tolerant, moderate and open-minded next generation of Pakistani youngsters promoting respect and tolerance for other faiths.

In the past five years, the Forum has consistently commemorated the anniversary of Danny's murder in candle-lighting ceremonies, lectures about Muslim-Jewish commonalities, and discussions about pluralistic societies. They have also participated in the Daniel Pearl World Music Days, through music, song and magic.


http://www.danielpearl.org/news_and_press/articles/tolerance_in_pakistan.html

Andak you are like a child who needs constant attention.
I am far from clueless on the issue and everyone here besides the two Muslims see that interfaith talks are a con by Muslims.

Did the talks stop the rockets going into Israel?
Did the talks stop the Mumbai attacks?

We all see the problem getting worse and this thread is full of articles that prove it. Your attempted distractions will not work, Pakistan is an Islamic sewer. Tolerance.:rolleyes:

[varian]

An oldie but goodie!!!

Jews, it is often said, are the canary in the coal mine of civilization. When they become the objects of savagery and hate, it means the air has been poisoned and an explosion is soon to come.

http://qumran.com/For_a_Better_Understanding/canary_in_europe.htm

THE CANARY IN EUROPE'S MINE
By
Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe April 28, 2002

The rocks have been lifted all over Europe, and the snakes of Jew-hatred are slithering free.

In Belgium, thugs beat up the chief rabbi, kicking him in the face and calling him "a dirty Jew." Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed; a third, in Charleroi, was sprayed with automatic weapons fire.

In Britain, the cover of the New Statesman, a left-wing magazine, depicted a large Star of David stabbing the Union Jack. Oxford professor Tom Paulin, a noted poet, told an Egyptian interviewer that American Jews who move to the West Bank and Gaza "should be shot dead." A Jewish yeshiva student reading the Psalms was stabbed 27 times on a London bus.

Antisemitism, wrote a columnist in The Spectator, "has become Respectable at London dinner tables." She quoted one member of the House of Lords: "The Jews have been asking for it and now, thank God, we can say what we think at last."

In Italy, the daily paper La Stampa published a Page 1 cartoon: A tank emblazoned with a Jewish star points its gun at the baby Jesus, who pleads, "Surely they don't want to kill me again?" In Corriere Della Sera, another cartoon showed Jesus trapped in his tomb, unable to rise, because Ariel Sharon, with rifle in hand, is sitting on the sepulchre. The caption: "Non resurrexit."

In Germany, a rabbinical student was beaten up in downtown Berlin and a grenade was thrown into a Jewish cemetery. Thousands of neo-Nazis held a rally, marching near a synagogue on the Jewish sabbath. Graffiti appeared in a synagogue in the western town of Herford: "Six million were not enough."

In Ukraine, skinheads attacked Jewish worshippers and smashed the windows of Kiev's main synagogue. Ukrainian police denied that the attack was anti-Jewish.

In Greece, Jewish graves were desecrated in Ioannina and vandals hurled paint at the Holocaust memorial in Salonica. In Holland, an anti-Israel demonstration featured swastikas, photos of Hitler, and chants of "Sieg Heil" and "Jews into the sea." In Slovakia, the Jewish cemetery of Kosice was invaded and 135 tombstones destroyed. But nowhere have the flames of antisemitism burned more furiously than in France.

In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseille; so was a Jewish school in Creteil. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervillie rs has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

According to the police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents per day since Easter.

Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to the gas chambers" and "Death to the Jews." The weekly journal Le Nouvel Observateur published an appalling libel: It said Israeli soldiers rape Palestinian women, so that their relatives will kill them to preserve "family honor." The French ambassador to Great Britain was not sacked -- and did not apologize -- when it was learned that he had told guests at a London dinner that the world's troubles were the fault of "that shitty little country, Israel."


"At the start of the 21st century," writes Pierre-Andre Taguieff, a well-known social scientist, in a new book, "we are discovering that Jews are once again select targets of violence. Hatred of the Jews has returned to France." But of course, it never left. Not France; not Europe. Antisemitism, the oldest bigotry known to man, has been a part of European society since time immemorial. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, open Jew-hatred became unfashionable; but fashions change, and Europe is reverting to type.


To be sure, some Europeans are shocked by the re-emergence of Jew-hatred all over their continent. But the more common reaction has been complacency. "Stop saying that there is antisemitism in France," President Jacques Chirac scolded a Jewish editor in January. "There is no antisemitism in France." The European media have been vicious in condemning Israel's self-defense against Palestinian terrorism in the West Bank; they have been far less agitated about anti-Jewish terror in their own backyard. They are making a grievous mistake. For if today the violence and vitriol are aimed at the Jews, tomorrow they will be aimed at the Christians. A timeless lesson of history is that it rarely ends with the Jews.

Militant Islamist extremists were attacking and killing Jews long before they attacked and killed Americans on Sept. 11. The Nazis first set out to incinerate the Jews; in the end, all of Europe was ablaze. Jews, it is often said, are the canary in the coal mine of civilization. When they become the objects of savagery and hate, it means the air has been poisoned and an explosion is soon to come. If Europeans don't rise up and turn against the Jew-haters, it is only a matter of time until the Jew-haters rise up and turn against them.

[kozzol]

nice one varian

[andak01]

Andak you are like a child who needs constant attention.
I am far from clueless on the issue and everyone here besides the two Muslims see that interfaith talks are a con by Muslims.

Did the talks stop the rockets going into Israel?

Did the talks stop the Mumbai attacks?

Well of course, that's the same thing. Al Qaida IS Hamas! :stick:

And of course if efforts at diplomacy fail, then the other side should be bombed into submission as a proof of how violent THEY are. Let's ignore completely anyone that wants diplomacy and isn't attacking in favor of focusing on those who are! It's a good thing you actually don't run anything. Reasonable people recognize you for the fringe bigot you are. And hey, the other fringe bigots send you a big wet kiss.

[Steven]

Well of course, that's the same thing. Al Qaida IS Hamas! :stick:

And of course if efforts at diplomacy fail, then the other side should be bombed into submission as a proof of how violent THEY are. Let's ignore completely anyone that wants diplomacy and isn't attacking in favor of focusing on those who are! It's a good thing you actually don't run anything. Reasonable people recognize you for the fringe bigot you are. And hey, the other fringe bigots send you a big wet kiss.



1400 years of talking to Muslims and the problem is worse than ever. Of course you avoided the Mumbai attacks, I am sure that no one else realized that. Any reasonable person sees that when there is a problem that is what needs to be focused on.

As usual the disconnected leftist convert lives in a world of his own. Too blinded by a so called religion that he thinks that he has found some kind of power in, to see that no one is agreeing with him.