Ashkenazi and Sefardim

[takeo]

This treat is not about Arabs versus Jews.
I went to israel and was surprised to find all jews were more or less having a strong sence of national pride (even too strong close to arrogance) and only excluding the Pals living in Israel.
But this is very strange because at thec same time i saw so much difference between the different groups of Jews living there.
the Russian Jews are more russian than jew (for sure the ones who immigrated recently) and most of them(if not all) immigrated to israel for economic reasons. The Ethiopian jews are a community apart as well, and still many sefardics cling together.
however it seems that the most dominant group are the ashkenazi Jews, and that Israel is mostly organised according to their principles. it makes it also more easy to understand why Israel is so much Americanised, as most ashkenazi Jews(or with Ashkenazi origin) today live in the States and israel. The European and American ashkenazi's (in France, Holland and Belgium also some sefardic jews) have mostly assimilated and few still speak Jiddisch. Most disappeared from their Eastern european settlements in WWII and they assimilated very much in Russia during the soviet period. Many came first to western Europe before moving to Israel. So ashkenazi jews have been westernised (except the Russians) and Israel is a western country. Still however one can see some typical Eastern European remains in Israeli mentality, lifestyle etc.(for axemple the kittutz remind me very much of eastern europe in some cases) that have spread from the ashkenazi dominant group to all Israeli. I don't know if most Ashkenazi did came directly from eastern Europe or lived already some time in the west before moving to Israel. It is clear to me that they wanted to be as western as possible and forget about their homeland. Also some western european and american Jews went to israel and made the country even more western.
however how was it possible to integrate other groups with totally different culture into this, like the groups coming from Arab countries and Iran, and for example Ethiopia, who did not have been westernised and don't have cousins in Western Europe or America? Did they contribute as well to the national mentality, etc. and have they been discriminised? Was the Hebrew choosen as common language instead of Jiddisch to facilitate their integration? are they today largely integrated or not yet?
and last question: what about the Russian jews, they are as well ashkenazi but have not been westernised but russianised instead(and some have more Russian blood in them than Jewish). Are they considered as equals in Israel or not?
It is strange however that a national ideology can bind people from all over the world and make a new society (only unfortunate that the non-jews living in that land that became Israel have been left out completely, but that's another discussion).

[takeo]

kibutz

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
...however how was it possible to integrate other groups with totally different culture into this, like the groups coming from Arab countries and Iran, and for example Ethiopia, who did not have been westernised and don't have cousins in Western Europe or America? Did they contribute as well to the national mentality, etc. and have they been discriminised? Was the Hebrew choosen as common language instead of Jiddisch to facilitate their integration? are they today largely integrated or not yet?
and last question: what about the Russian jews, they are as well ashkenazi but have not been westernised but russianised instead(and some have more Russian blood in them than Jewish). Are they considered as equals in Israel or not?

You raise a great many questions about multi-national integration, and I think that most of them can be answered like this:

Israel is a Western country largely due to its democratic system, its values on education and society, and of course the combined wealth of input from the diversified national origins of its citizens.

So far as the electoral system and emphasis on education and democracy, these represented a major break for Sephardic Jews from their Arab-country origin, where these values do not exist for the most part.

But the Sephardic Jews have brought a tremendous contribution in these areas as well, because as Jews they always valued the experience of studying Jewish literature, which they easily translated into academic excellence, more and more with each generation.

In our generation there is a very good integration between Sephardic jews and Ashkenazi Jews. There is a combined culture, which nhas become a distinct Israeli culture and has components of both cultures.

Russian Jews regardless of the reasons they returned to Israel, are also integrating quickly into Israeli society, although many of them have just arrived in the past few years and are still aclimating. But most Russian Jews have arrived with a wealth of academic and cultural assets, which they are contributing to israeli society. I believe that already Israeli society reflects the input of the Russian Jews and more and more so with each passing year.

The Ethiopian Jews are taking longer to integrate into Israeli culture because their point of reference is so different to begin with. But still, they have done very well in a matter of just a few years and there is a very strong trend of integration.

All these groups are well represented in the Israeli legislature and in all aspects of private and public life.

This might be a lesson to many readers, that the common religious bond among Jews of all cultures is much stronger than any differences in their national origin.

[takeo]

Yes, but why couldn't the Palestinians have been integrated in this process? (maibe as a distinctive group, not to be assimilated)
In any case the culture of the sephardic jews is similar to that of the palestinians and many of them still speak arab. I went to Morocco and saw that the jews remaining there have no problems whit racism. it is strange that the sephardic Jews have the strongest hate against Arabs, maibe they want to stress their own superiority and allegiance to israeli society by looking upon the Palestinians.
i think this integration and westernisation is because of large financial contributions as you stated, and because of the good education policy. It is true that the Russian Jews are in general very devellopped in science, culture, etc. and can contribute this. However many still have problems adapting to a more western society and are generally paid less than an established Israeli citizens. I think they are still, together with the Ethiopians the most isolated group of jews in israel, right? probably the next generation who had their youth in Israel will assimilate more easily.
I noticed as well that many Palestinians have integrated into israeli society and a lot of mixed marriages take place, in which mostly the jewish family resists more than the palestinian family.

[aid]

Takeo,

What you write is the best evidence you understand nothing.

The world is passing by you, and you can't see it, all because you are blinded by your Communist ideology of two hundred years ago.

Since you have no concept of Jewishness, I will explain it to you. Jews all over the world, no matter where they live, what language they speak, and what hue their skin is, feel part of the same nation. The Jewish nation is special, and I won't go into it, but it is a nation. Stalin and Marxists did not recognize Jews as a nation, and this is why you can't understnad it. Despite that, the Jewish nation lives. The Roman Empire is dead, Inquisition is dead, Communism is dead, Nazism is dead, but the Jewish nation is very much alive. Ashkenazim, Spharadim, Mizrachim, Gruzinim, etc. - in the end it means nothing.

And Islamism will be dead, too., btw, just as Communism is.

[aid]

Takeo,

I have a question for you.

Did you visit Moscow in the seventies?

[takeo]

Why this question?
In the early 80's i visited Moscow indeed but all i was interested in at that time was ice-cream. I visited it again in the late 80's and several times during the 90's. Still Russia isn't a western society, and nothing has changed much in the life of ordinary russians, except that living has become harder. Some people however are doing better, more in Moscow than elsewhere, that is correct.
I understand quite well that Jews aren't a people but a religion, and as there are 1000's of different muslims there are 1000's of different jews, who are all very different except that they live in the same country and have the same religious background.

[aid]

The reason I asked, Takeo, was that in the seventies a huge crowd of Jews (who are not a a people of course) would gather outside the only synagogue in Moscow on high holidays.

Foreign guest would usually visit, Americans and Canadians. We would all understand each other very well.

But once, a couple of other guests came. Those were Frenchmen, French Jews. They came to look for supporters of Communism and leftist causes among this crowd! People could not believe what their ears. They just shrugged their shoulders and steppedc away. THen I decided to ask them a question. I asked, why the French Jews, a large community it is, is unable to influence the French policies towards Israel, as the US community does.

They replied lamely: "they are trying..." and went away.

I remembered the episode when I got to know you on the forum. It occured to me that you could have been of these guys and I actually have met you. But if not, I may have met your Party Genossen. That's OK. France is a palce full of mysteries.

Now please tell me this. You claim to be Jewish, but being a Communist, you are an atheist. But since according to you "Jews aren't a people but a religion", how can you be Jewish?

Why do you call yourself a Jew?

What do you have in common with us here?

Why do you come here?

[takeo]

I am not religious, but my family comes from a Jewish origin, and your origin always remains important, especially since Jews are a quite small community and have some history in common.

[takeo]

Well, since I'm born in 1976 I don't think you've met me, but you could have met my parents, yes.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
I am not religious, but my family comes from a Jewish origin, and your origin always remains important, especially since Jews are a quite small community and have some history in common.

But you have called yourself a Jew, have you not?

So how can you be one if you are not religious when you say "Jews aren't a people but a religion".

No matter how I tyr I can't get an answer from you.

It seems you don't know yourself who you are.

Maybe you need just to grow up to overgrow your infantile Commie sickness.

[takeo]

French Jews don't feel the need to influence politics as a community, they are French citizens, they have no common political interests, as they are scattered over the whole French political spectrum (except extremist right-wing), and many of them feel no sympathy for Israel.
Besides French and Western European politics is not all about lobbying and money as American politics, the most important is the party you belong to and the elections, not your etnic or religious background.
It is indeed strange that most Russian Jews today belong to the right-wing and close to the former Yeltsin clan(berezovsky, Guzinski, ...) or yabloko, with some exceptions.

[aid]

There is nothing strange with Russian Jews.

There is everything strange with some of the French Jews.

The inability of the Jewish community in France to organize itself to protect its own interests from the Arabs and other anti--Semites, from the extreme leftists and rightists, and to provide support for Israel is baffling to me.

It seems to be unique to France. Even the former SU the Jews were more outspoken in support of Israel than in free (still) France!

Amazing.

BTW, Berezovsky is not Jewish - he got baptized, Baruch Hashem.

The fewer bastards among the Jewish people, the better.

[takeo]

Historically and scientifically spoken, Jews are not a race but a religion, because many people who joined the Jewish religion/community weren't original Jews (i gave the example of the Khazar Khanat). They also didn't speak the same language and culture and had only their religion in common.
However because they were, because of their religion, always separated from the main population, they created a kind of own culture, and so the sephardim and ashkenazi groups were born. With some goodwill one can consider those to be etnic groups, but the only thing the different etnic groups of Jewish religion had in common their religion.
You can compare it with the Gypsies, who started as an etnic group, but mixed with so much original people and became so different in the countries they stayed (indian gypsies have almost nothing in common with spanish or romanian gypsies) that today they are more a social group than an etnic group.
It is a question one can't have an easy answer, as it is complicated

[takeo]

If there would be a lot of anti-semitism in France than people of jewish background should have a reason to unite, but that isn't the case. We were the first country in the world to gave Jews equal rights (shortly after followed by the US), we never had a KKK, and the latest wave of anti-semitism in france died in 1945. And it's not because you are Jewish that you should defend Israel, that's fascism. In that case the people of german ancestors in the US should have fought for Germany in WWII!
Besides French jews are not unique in this, they are fully integrated in French society. The Moroccan and Tunisian Jews I met were as much against Israel as their Muslim compatriots, and many Belgian, Italian, Hungarian (for example Gyorgy Konrad), etc. Jews don't care at all about being a political pressure group.
And even many American Jews don't care at all about being a political pressure group because they are "jew" and find it a silly idea, as it depends much more to which social group or state they belong that that they have Jewish/ Irish, etc. background. I think the zionist influence in the US is not strong because of a lot of popular or electoral support from the large Jewish community but because of very strong financial support.

[bakuda]

Takeo, two thinks i'd like to point out that you got wrong. One, the Khazaric influence was very minimal. And two, Poland, not France was the first country to give Jews their full rights of a citizen.

[Mediocrates]

Israel has an organized program to naturalize ingathered Jews including education, language (ulpan), job training. In the last 2 decades Israel has struggled with the influx of over a million Russian Jews who had little if any knowledge of Hebrew or Judaism and frequently only a faint cultural or ethnic or historical or relgious affinity for Judaism. OTOH they knew that Russian society and Russian government branded them as Jews as traitors as outsiders as the enemy. Russians have had some successes in Israeli society, like Natan Sharansky and have had some problems as one would expect.

So when the Russians were offered an opportunity to leave the country they did. If American had a similar law they would come to America but since Israel welcomed them, Israel is where they went. Similarly for Jews attempting to leave South Africa the journey usually runs from SA to Israel to the US. It's easier to enter the US from Israel than it is from SA.

The Falasha are a different case altogether. The original airlifts of about 70,000 people were done as a rescue mission to save Jews who were more or less expelled from Africa. In the 20 years since the first Falashim landed their population has doubled. They came to Israel with a stromg religious sense and a knowledge they are Jews but little else. They were living almost centuries behind the west. A big piece of the naturalization process for the Falasha is basic modern education. However the Falasha struggle with an kind of unspoken racial stigma in Israel. Their schools and their towns are almost 100% Falasha which is very atypical for the normally egalitarian Israeli culture. Certainly more has to be done with and for the Falasha.

But at the heart they are Jews and Israel is the Jewish state. You ask why more can't be done to incorporate the 12% Arab population into Israeli society. At a high level its because Israel is a Jewish state. It is not merely a democratic westernized state in the mid east. It is a Jewish state. And it is run according to Jewish laws and customs and norms. Not Muslim, not Arab, not Levantic and not Western, European or American. A Jewish state.

[takeo]

thanks for the reports about the russian and ethiopian Jews
Well, some people here say that Israel is a multi-etnic society where Arabs are an equal part of society, you just denied it (and you are right unfortunately...).
The original inhabitants of israel don't have a place in Israeli society (or a second-class place), the influx of Palestinian refugees returning to their houses would change israel from a Jewish to a jewish-arab state... that is a problem for the rightwing israeli, left-wingers are prepared to make that offer, because they know the jewish people can't claim exclusivity on this land and any state centered on the principle of etnicity and bloodties is not Western and democratic as israel claims to be but rather fasicst (bloodties and land the most important assets of fascism) . You just said that cultural differences doesn't make a big difference, as both the Russians and Ethiopians are very different from most Israeli, but the stamp "ARAB" DOES make a big difference...

[takeo]

ps: i forgot this one: my father's mother claims to have Khasars as her ancestors, by the way she is jewish(at least indicated on her passport) but her face is still pretty mongolic, she look as a Tatar woman.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by takeo
If there would be a lot of anti-semitism in France than people of jewish background should have a reason to unite, but that isn't the case. We were the first country in the world to gave Jews equal rights (shortly after followed by the US), we never had a KKK, and the latest wave of anti-semitism in france died in 1945.

Is there enough anti-semitism today in France to change your opinion? What more do you need? anouther crystal night?

[Mediocrates]

"that is a problem for the rightwing israeli, left-wingers are prepared to make that offer, because they know the jewish people can't claim exclusivity on this land"

In Israel that is not purely a left right issue no matter how hard the west tries to shoehorn it. It is largely a religious issue. About 30%+ of the population are practising Orthodox Jews. Another 15%+ are observant non Orthodox, eg. Conservative and other groups. It is not purely about the land it is about culture as well. This is a Jewish state with Jewish customs and Jewish laws. To the extent that the old school Labor left wing secular Jews feel any affinity for Israel it is outside of any religious wellbeing. None the less they are Jews embraced as such. Free to be that kind of Jew.

This is the one thing the West never fully understands. The goal of Israel is not to be a mini European state in the mid east nor do they want to become a tiny version of the US. They are a Jewish state founded by and for Jews. Arabs live there and make up a percentage of the population. Are they treated differently? Yes they are. Are minorities all over the industrialized world treated differently, sometimes unfairly? Yes they are. In France and in Germany and in Malaysia and in the US. Do we hold this up and say the only remedy is to tear down society and change the demographic nature of the country by force if necessary? No. Do we say that anyone who has an old grudge should be allowed w/o question to immigrate and be showered with whatever benefit they wish simply because world opinion this week says so this week and doesn't actually have to be involved in the implementation of that? No we don't do that either. Why does the left believe with all its misguided heart that the remedy to this perceived dislocation is the complete and irreversible disruption of Israeli society? Because you say they deserve it? Because the consequences are trivial to you? Because you won't worry about lifting a finger should the Jews become an oppresed minority in their own country?

I have an understanding of the left's real and tangible indifference to the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. To the left, the existance of Israel is important only to the extent that it reflects the west's own view of itself and it's own values. For all of its vaunted multicultural love of all values and cultures, the only value system and culture it values is its own. To the left, the value of peace in Israel only extends to its continued ability to be a tourist attraction for those Jews who want to make an annual trip there and make the obligatory shopping trips and tours to Masada. They wear their Judaism like a shawl and value it only as long as they get a good table at the seaside cafes in Tel Aviv. They will neither notice nor care who the waiter is. Judaism as a postcard. So for them, peace at whatever cost is a good thing. In fact if the country were neither Jewish nor Arab but merely a good clean secular main street with the same Starbucks chains you see from Bankok to Bangor to Brisbane and back again the left would welcome it.

[takeo]

"In Israel that is not purely a left right issue no matter how hard the west tries to shoehorn it. It is largely a religious issue. About 30%+ of the population are practising Orthodox Jews. Another 15%+ are observant non Orthodox, eg. Conservative and other groups. It is not purely about the land it is about culture as well. This is a Jewish state with Jewish customs and Jewish laws. To the extent that the old school Labor left wing secular Jews feel any affinity for Israel it is outside of any religious wellbeing. None the less they are Jews embraced as such. Free to be that kind of Jew. "

so israel isn't a religious country, you don't have to be religious to live in israel? fortunately!



"This is the one thing the West never fully understands. The goal of Israel is not to be a mini European state in the mid east nor do they want to become a tiny version of the US. They are a Jewish state founded by and for Jews. Arabs live there and make up a percentage of the population. Are they treated differently? Yes they are. Are minorities all over the industrialized world treated differently, sometimes unfairly? Yes they are. In France and in Germany and in Malaysia and in the US."

In malaysia the chinese have fully equal rights as the malay, in Belgium nor the flemsih, nor the french are a minority. this states function well and both communities feel home in their state. Why can't israel be a state of both the Jews and the Palestinians? What is the advantage of an exclusively jewish state?
If zionists wanted an own state that would only be Jewish, than they had to search for other lands, patagonia for example, where nobody lived, or the pale-territory in Ukrain, where only jews lived before WWII.




"Do we hold this up and say the only remedy is to tear down society and change the demographic nature of the country by force if necessary? No. Do we say that anyone who has an old grudge should be allowed w/o question to immigrate and be showered with whatever benefit they wish simply because world opinion this week says so this week and doesn't actually have to be involved in the implementation of that? No we don't do that either. Why does the left believe with all its misguided heart that the remedy to this perceived dislocation is the complete and irreversible disruption of Israeli society? Because you say they deserve it? Because the consequences are trivial to you? Because you won't worry about lifting a finger should the Jews become an oppresed minority in their own country? "

No! actually allowing some palestinian refugees back in israel is not only a duty confirmed by tun-resolutions and geneva-conventions, it is also a condition to live in peace with its neighbours AND to rectify the unjustice done to other people during the independance of israel. (as germany also had to pay tribute to israel for the genocide). Whatever caused the war, the refusal of israel to allow back millions of refugees caused a lot of human suffering and was not allowed by international law.
the left supports this because it knows that, at least a negociated return (of course not all, even the plo doesn't demand this any longer) will not mean the end of israel, not even that the jewish people would become a minority in israel, BUT it would mean that israel would not longer be an exclusively jewish state but a state whee Palestinians are more than just a minority but an important "national composant" group (as they said in the former soviet union) of the israeli state. the consequences are not trival to the left, they know it will cause some problems (as maybe a rise in unimployment, some problems with unadapted palestinians) but in the end, israel survived the russian influx, so practically it shouldn't be a big problem. Morally it would mean the end of israel as an exclusively jewish state, but as i said jews would still be the most important etnic group in Israel, and israel would still be a Jewish state AS WELL.


I have an understanding of the left's real and tangible indifference to the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. To the left, the existance of Israel is important only to the extent that it reflects the west's own view of itself and it's own values. For all of its vaunted multicultural love of all values and cultures, the only value system and culture it values is its own. To the left, the value of peace in Israel only extends to its continued ability to be a tourist attraction for those Jews who want to make an annual trip there and make the obligatory shopping trips and tours to Masada. They wear their Judaism like a shawl and value it only as long as they get a good table at the seaside cafes in Tel Aviv. They will neither notice nor care who the waiter is. Judaism as a postcard. So for them, peace at whatever cost is a good thing. In fact if the country were neither Jewish nor Arab but merely a good clean secular main street with the same Starbucks chains you see from Bankok to Bangor to Brisbane and back again the left would welcome it.

[takeo]

"I have an understanding of the left's real and tangible indifference to the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. To the left, the existance of Israel is important only to the extent that it reflects the west's own view of itself and it's own values. For all of its vaunted multicultural love of all values and cultures, the only value system and culture it values is its own. To the left, the value of peace in Israel only extends to its continued ability to be a tourist attraction for those Jews who want to make an annual trip there and make the obligatory shopping trips and tours to Masada. They wear their Judaism like a shawl and value it only as long as they get a good table at the seaside cafes in Tel Aviv. They will neither notice nor care who the waiter is. Judaism as a postcard. So for them, peace at whatever cost is a good thing. In fact if the country were neither Jewish nor Arab but merely a good clean secular main street with the same Starbucks chains you see from Bankok to Bangor to Brisbane and back again the left would welcome it."

Actually many leftist people live already in israel, they don't see judaism as a postcard, it is their origin too, but they can't identify themselves, AND jUDAISM, with a state that is oppressing other people and a prime minister with blood on his hands!
I think it is not their wish to make israel a western state with no characteristics. Of course they want some western comfort, and they don't want to be forced to celebrate the Sabbat, and they don't want to be send to the occupied territories, but they like as well the Jewish caracteristics of Israel. But would these cease to exist if israel would become a little more palestinian? I think not! Palestinian and israeli culture can exist next to eachother and even influence eachother to form a whole new Israel. You really have a wrong idea about leftist Jews, or leftist people in general.
I think that if israel would become a peacefull country and not as obsessed by military and religion as now, than more people, especially French and american liberal or left-wing Jews, would consider moving to israel.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
... I'm born in 1976 ...
takeo, I did not know you were just a baby! You are too close to the age where people still think they know everything. Once you have lived through a Viet Nam, walked through a world-wide recession or two, seen the fall of a Berlin wall that has been there all of your life and experienced a little of reality, perhaps your view of life and world politics will change. Young man, there is hope! ;)

[Iori Yagami]

Originally posted by takeo

and last question: what about the Russian jews, they are as well ashkenazi but have not been westernised but russianised instead(and some have more Russian blood in them than Jewish). Are they considered as equals in Israel or not?


No, we aren`t. It`s extremely hard to find a good non-kosher food market here, that actually sells good food.

BTW, I see nothing wrong in being "russianized". I`m quite happy that I can still speak russian quite fluently, and read russian books. The Russian culture, at least in its non antisemite parts, is quite fascinating.

Being "assimilated" sounds like something taken from Star Trek, or even worse, from Mein Kampf. The beauty of the society in Israel, is that we are different, yet we are the same.

[Micah]

You could say that Israel and the Jews are "one nation, under God."

[danholo]

takeo,

You should go tell to anti-semites that how Jews are just Jews because of religion, not a people.
It's too bad that your a self-hating Jew, denying everything that Judaism actually is.

I would say that probably 90 % of Jews are decendants of their ancient ancestors.
Some anti-semites claim that modern Jews are 90% Khazarian descent. :) What BS, the Khazar theory was abandoned long ago.
First, not many want to convert to Judaism, second, it's not a walk in the park to convert.
In Islam you have to repeat the same sentence three times in order to be muslim, in christianity they throw some water on you and say a prayer and your Christian. In Judaism, you'll have to study the damn religion. Just like if you want to become a US citizen, you have to study US history and the basics of the US system. Otherwise, most born US citizens don't know hell about their country and most born Jews don't know hell about what they are.
Reform Judaism shouldn't have emerged, since it denyed the fact that Jews were a people.

[Mediocrates]

If Russianized means fleeing the country on anything that will carry them anywhere, I guess I'd have to agree with you.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Iori Yagami
No, we aren`t. It`s extremely hard to find a good non-kosher food market here, that actually sells good food.

BTW, I see nothing wrong in being "russianized". I`m quite happy that I can still speak russian quite fluently, and read russian books. The Russian culture, at least in its non antisemite parts, is quite fascinating.

Being "assimilated" sounds like something taken from Star Trek, or even worse, from Mein Kampf. The beauty of the society in Israel, is that we are different, yet we are the same. This is a good point on the difference in cultural perceptions. There is a French tradition of being quite adamant about one's pure Frenchness. While it's some relief that this kind of Frenchness is defined by language, everyday habits etc., rather than by the ethnic backgroud, from which no one can escape, many have a hard time to achieve a balance between their non-French background and French surroundings, the latter being very demanding (for a practical example, the requirements for language proficiency exams for non-native speakers are afaik the highest in the whole Europe). It's true anywhere of course, but the French seem to be particularily prohibitive about accomodating even small particles of "non-Frenchness" in their cultural space.

On the other hand, the Russian society was/is relatively accomodative to non-natives in applying less pressure to declare themselves Russians and nothing else, period (which never excluded the ugliest forms of nationalism :( ).

Germany is quite extremist in a different way. A German is defined, not legally, but in everyday life, by his ethnicity. It leads to absurd situations, for example, since some of the best present-day writers are ethnically non-Germans. Such a person might make the greatest contribution to what is actually supposed to be the German culture, his native language, yet he/she would still invariably be defined as, say, "a Turkish writer", for these who don't get it with the explanatory addition "writing in German". :rolleyes:

I suppose Israel is one of the best places on the Earth for a "transcultural" existence that avoids all too narrow definitions. It has hardly any other choice.

[Mediocrates]

Elias Canetti was a Bulgarian Jew of Italian ancestry who lived most of his life in England and wrote in German. He is not and will never be considered a German writer the same way as say Gunter Grass or Heinrich Boll.

Actually Canetti has some interesting things to say about 'being German'. Read "Crowds and Power" if you're interested.

[Vic]

The craziest definition of Canetti I ever heard was "German-speaking cosmopolitian". The queer thing is that this narrowing of definition robs the country of what is to the rest of the world the finest part of German culture :D . A Germany that would include people like Canetti would be a much more attractive place, at the present moment there seem to be two Germanies: the Germany "on the ground", so to say, a country of its ethnic majority and the second, more abstract and all the more vital Germany of its language, its arts, philosophy etc. - a virtual "cultural space". An utterly schizophrenic situation.

[Mediocrates]

That is true but I'm sure there is an inner dialog for all national identities. And then sometimes I think that in post modern Europe the only way to preserve one's national identity is to surrender it to Europeanism. That is, there is more to lose remaining the same German both publically and internally than there is benefit in being more European on the outside. In this sense national identity in Europe becomes for many, more of a brand.

We all know what French cooking and Scottish sweaters and Irish beer and Italian cars are, and we ascribe personal values to them but the internal dialog those people have increasingly becomes more and more alike and moreover in so many more ways even on the outside people all begin to act and look and behave the same. Everyone wears Reeboks, uses Windows, reads the same news and so on. In this sense national identity becomes nearly a history, a belief about what WAS. and oddly I see this as the driving force to preserve one's national identity. For example, Gaelic didn't have the momentum behind it that it does now until Ireland joined the EU.

[ruby]

i have never heard of this ashkenazism v. sephardism until just recently.

is this really an accepted historical fact that the ashkenazi jews are not originally of jewish ME origin?

how odd. how can ou call yourself a 'race' then when these are 2 distinct races that only share a religion?

and where did this word come from> it has 'nazi' in it!!!

[elke]

Originally posted by ruby
i have never heard of this ashkenazism v. sephardism until just recently.

is this really an accepted historical fact that the ashkenazi jews are not originally of jewish ME origin?

how odd. how can ou call yourself a 'race' then when these are 2 distinct races that only share a religion?

and where did this word come from> it has 'nazi' in it!!!

Ashkenazi Jews, by and large, are indeed of ME origin. There have been studies done on the subject, using DNA testing. I will find some links for you later, if you are interested

"Ashkenaz" is a land North of Israel (Germany, it seems) mentioned in the Torah, that's why the European Jews are called Ashkenazim. It has nothing whatever to do with Nazis.

[ruby]

Originally posted by elke
[B]

Ashkenazi Jews, by and large, are indeed of ME origin. There have been studies done on the subject, using DNA testing. I will find some links for you later, if you are interested
/B]

thanks. no links needed.
seems somewhat obvious that there are ethnic features that are shared (i know a very russian looking jew with very semitic eyes--very nice!). so the tribe split? and these are not just random converts?
what about the ethiopean jews, then? do they also have shared dna? :confused:

[elke]

Originally posted by ruby


thanks. no links needed.
seems somewhat obvious that there are ethnic features that are shared (i know a very russian looking jew with very semitic eyes--very nice!). so the tribe split? and these are not just random converts?
what about the ethiopean jews, then? do they also have shared dna? :confused:

Actually, from what I read - yes, they do, although they split off much further back: rumor has it, about 2500 years ago.

[ruby]

Originally posted by elke


Actually, from what I read - yes, they do, although they split off much further back: rumor has it, about 2500 years ago.

then dna tests should prove it. i am curious.
and there is proof that these ethiopeans were practicing judaism 2500 years ago?

btw what about the recent dna tests that proved palestinians & jews shared dna?
is this how we can account for the fact that there are such strong physical traits in common between the ME arabs and jews?

[Mediocrates]

Dunno know about that but a friend of mine is a blue eyed blond haired aryan looking Spaniard and man I know with the longest most unpronounceable Polish Jewish name has an incredibly thick Cuban accent.

Go figure. I don't think DNA means much. I have ancestors from 5 different European countries, so what should I look like?

[elke]

Look, all humans share close to 100% of our DNA. We even share DNA with bacteria! We share about 40% of our DNA with mice, and 98.5% with the Chimps. Therefore, don't overreact to these facts: the current consensus is that we all came from Africa and owe our human form to one "Mother Eve" there.

Having said that, yes, Ethiopian Jews have been practicing a version of Judaism. Judaism dates back to approximately 3000 years ago. Jews have proselytized in the past, apparently it was the Romans that closed that off, long after the Ethiopian branch split off. Once a person converts to Judaism, there is no impediment to marriage with him/her, so again - it's not very surprising that the Ethiopian Jews are Black.

As far as the blonde Spaniards and such, every place on this Planet has been overrun by various shades of humans. Spain in particular is known to have been conquered by the Celts.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe the Celts but judging from her temperment I'd say the Vikings.

I think though on the whole it doesn't matter much. In Spain and South America there are lots of crypto-Anouim (don't say Marranos or Conversos that's an insult and bad word). Hundreds of years later they are learning why they light candles on Friday or keep 'candelabras' around near Christmas. Some of them are rediscovering their long lost Judaism. In the intervening centuries they have mixted with people from different cultures different countries, different ethnicities. So if we flash forward to today, voila they are Jews, but they look Brazilian or Metsitzo Indian or Peruvian or upper class Venezuelan/Dutch or Mexican. Ethnically they may look like the archetypal Central American Don or Dona but they are Jews. It's likely that Felasha experienced some of the same thing.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Maybe the Celts but judging from her temperment I'd say the Vikings.


Sounds like quite a gal! ;)

Yes, I think something similar to the "crypto-Anouim" probably happened to the Ethiopians, and possibly others as well. Apparently, some Pushtuns consider themselves a "Lost Tribe" as well...

[cerulean]

http://www.hadassah.org/NEWS/archive/2001/Jan01/family.htm

And about the blonde Spaniard, she might even get her hair color from an unexpected source. From the above article:
...
I asked my family to take part in the Hammer-Ostrer study. Ostrer took DNA samples from my father, my 8-year-old son, and one of my brothers. But before he gave me the laboratory results, he clarified a widely held misconception. “Blonde genes occur in Middle Eastern groups as well,” he explains. “There is no evidence that white skin and blue eyes originated in northern Europe. That is a Nordic myth. Semitic people had the whole range.” ...

===
and this one:
Commentary
Sept, 2000
Wandering Jews--and Their Genes.(genetic research)
Author/s: Hillel Halkin

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1061/2_110/65014591/print.jhtml (historical analysis)

[ruby]

yeah, yeah, yeah...it doesn't matter to me one bit, it's all good. and we were supposed to come from either africa or india i thought anyway.
IT DOESN"T MATTER TO ME ONE BIT.
nobody can 'prove ' what they 'are' or what they are made of anyways. and we're al a mixture.
i never understood why people put so much effort into making themselves so distinct from others through ethnicity or whatever.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Maybe the Celts but judging from her temperment I'd say the Vikings.

I think though on the whole it doesn't matter much. In Spain and South America there are lots of crypto-Anouim (don't say Marranos or Conversos that's an insult and bad word). Hundreds of years later they are learning why they light candles on Friday or keep 'candelabras' around near Christmas. Some of them are rediscovering their long lost Judaism. In the intervening centuries they have mixted with people from different cultures different countries, different ethnicities. So if we flash forward to today, voila they are Jews, but they look Brazilian or Metsitzo Indian or Peruvian or upper class Venezuelan/Dutch or Mexican. Ethnically they may look like the archetypal Central American Don or Dona but they are Jews. It's likely that Felasha experienced some of the same thing.

I just remembered reading an article in JUF News about a year ago, about a small community (about 1200 people, I believe) in Portugal. Of course, what with my house having some of the properties of the black holes (i.e. things go in, never to be seen again ;) ), I couldn't find that issue. The article said that this particular community had a major problem with diseases, and even mental retardation, due to its marriage patterns - they married inside the community only. The funny part is that they didn't even really know why they were only allowed to marry within, but they did it anyway. Recently, they figured it out: they are "crypto-Anouim"! Now, apparently, they are in contact with other such communities in Portugal and elsewhere.

[Mediocrates]

There have been a few pieces in Hadassah magazine about that i the past year FYI - - maybe that's what you saw?

[elke]

I get this Jewish United Fund magazine through my father. I don't get Hadassah, but the JUF News re-prints many articles from other Jewish sources, as well as its own material. It's highly possible that this article came from Hadassah.

[cerulean]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=16588182

India's children of Israel find their roots

RASHMEE Z AHMED
TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ SATURDAY, JULY 20, 2002 9:14:27 PM ]

LONDON: More than 2,000 years after they first claimed to have set foot in India, the mystery of the world's most obscure Jewish community - the Marathi-speaking Bene Israel - may finally have been solved with genetic carbon-dating revealing they carry the unusual Moses gene that would make them, literally, the original children of Israel.
Four years of DNA tests on the 4,000-strong Bene Israel, now mainly based in Mumbai, Pune, Thane and Ahmedabad, indicates they are probable descendants of a small group of hereditary Israelite priests or Cohanim, according to new results exclusively made available to the Sunday Times of India.
...

[ruby]

a moses gene?!?

that's interesting. why does anyone have to prove themselves with genetic testing?
have they ever taken a segment of a town, say a russian or german or spanish one, & seen how many people had the moses gene that didn't know it?

or what about the arabs in the ME? i wonder how many of them might have the moses gene?

it really sounds kind of silly, btw....& i wonder if any other ethnic group is tracked by a certain specific gene, like the moses one.
is there a ghengis khan gene or something?

[elke]

is there a ghengis khan gene or something?

Yes, if you believe Douglas Adams of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" fame (it's a joke, Ruby! :D)

Actually there are valid reasons for this type of genetic testing. It's a historical and ethnographic study, as I understand it, to determine the migration patterns of the Jews. I guess, it may not be as fascinating to non-Jews though as it is to us :) .

[cerulean]

I don't know why that article called the cohanim gene the Moses gene. It should really be called the Aaron gene.

A little more about that subject, although I can't vouch for everything in this article:

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/The_Cohanim_-_DNA_Connection.asp

[ruby]

Originally posted by elke
[B
It's a historical and ethnographic study, as I understand it, to determine the migration patterns of the Jews. I guess, it may not be as fascinating to non-Jews though as it is to us :) . [/B]

it is fascinating, i admit it.

all peoples have migrated at some point or the other.
i wonder what kind of ancestoral dna i carry, too.

i wonder if they can go further back than the moses gene & find another gene that links jews with other ethnicities?

[elke]

Originally posted by ruby


it is fascinating, i admit it.

all peoples have migrated at some point or the other.
i wonder what kind of ancestoral dna i carry, too.

i wonder if they can go further back than the moses gene & find another gene that links jews with other ethnicities?

That would be a tough one: our ancient contemporaries are all long gone... ;)

[ruby]

you can always go back farther. if we all walked out of hot spots in africa or india, then many, many people from my ancestral tree carry the moses gene & we are all related irregardless of that particular gene.

the genetic testing --doesn't this all just fall into a religious context, at its base? because history stretches beyond modern or even 'ancient' religions. only creationists believe humans sprang up fully formed & with ethnic & religious identities.

[cerulean]

As elke mentioned sometime back, it is thought by many nowadays that all humans have a shared female ancestor from 200,000 years ago (scientists call this unknown woman "Eve"). Maternal lineage can be traced back through the mitochondrial DNA.

More recently, it has been theorized that all humans have a maternal ancestor who was one of seven women 10-15,000 years ago. The research backing this theory is discussed in Bryan Sykes' book, The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry :
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393020185/qid=1027660260/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-7575753-8068751

Shared genes have been found between humans and bacteria.

[ruby]

well, it is very interesting, & i do understand the historical part of the study.
but by now, most to all humans are a muddle of different tribes, ethnicities, etc.

i remember that recently they said 1:4 europeans shared a father ancestor, so ,really, most of us belong in a humongous family tree at some point :D

i also heard recently that we share like 98% of the make up of vegatables & that carrots are more similar to us than not.

[andak01]

bump.

[Toga]

This treat is not about Arabs versus Jews.
I went to israel and was surprised to find all jews were more or less having a strong sence of national pride (even too strong close to arrogance) and only excluding the Pals living in Israel.
But this is very strange because at thec same time i saw so much difference between the different groups of Jews living there.
the Russian Jews are more russian than jew (for sure the ones who immigrated recently) and most of them(if not all) immigrated to israel for economic reasons. The Ethiopian jews are a community apart as well, and still many sefardics cling together.
however it seems that the most dominant group are the ashkenazi Jews, and that Israel is mostly organised according to their principles. it makes it also more easy to understand why Israel is so much Americanised, as most ashkenazi Jews(or with Ashkenazi origin) today live in the States and israel. The European and American ashkenazi's (in France, Holland and Belgium also some sefardic jews) have mostly assimilated and few still speak Jiddisch. Most disappeared from their Eastern european settlements in WWII and they assimilated very much in Russia during the soviet period. Many came first to western Europe before moving to Israel. So ashkenazi jews have been westernised (except the Russians) and Israel is a western country. Still however one can see some typical Eastern European remains in Israeli mentality, lifestyle etc.(for axemple the kittutz remind me very much of eastern europe in some cases) that have spread from the ashkenazi dominant group to all Israeli. I don't know if most Ashkenazi did came directly from eastern Europe or lived already some time in the west before moving to Israel. It is clear to me that they wanted to be as western as possible and forget about their homeland. Also some western european and american Jews went to israel and made the country even more western.
however how was it possible to integrate other groups with totally different culture into this, like the groups coming from Arab countries and Iran, and for example Ethiopia, who did not have been westernised and don't have cousins in Western Europe or America? Did they contribute as well to the national mentality, etc. and have they been discriminised? Was the Hebrew choosen as common language instead of Jiddisch to facilitate their integration? are they today largely integrated or not yet?
and last question: what about the Russian jews, they are as well ashkenazi but have not been westernised but russianised instead(and some have more Russian blood in them than Jewish). Are they considered as equals in Israel or not?
It is strange however that a national ideology can bind people from all over the world and make a new society (only unfortunate that the non-jews living in that land that became Israel have been left out completely, but that's another discussion).


Typical anti-Semitic trash written by an ignorant and virulent anti-Semitic virus who has no idea about Jewishness and Judaism. In their vile, racist world if the Jews don't look alke as some other nations do then there is no sense of belonging or anything else.

Why do they say that?

Because they don't understand what identifies a Jew!

[Achihud]

bump. You're good at it!