The Lubavitcher Rebbe as Melech HaMoshiach (Judaism's King Messiah)

[Moshe Yess]

To All,

In 1991 over 1,000 Chabad Rabbis signed a Psak Din (a formal Jewish Legal Ruling) stating that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was presumed [assuredly/with assurance] to be Moshiach (Judaism's King Messiah.)

The Lubavitcher Rebbe identified himself in no uncertain terms as Moshiach Tzidkeinu during numerous Chassidic discourses. He gave numerous Blessings to those who informed him of their decision to go public with this perception.

In 1994 he died (that's one version). Chabad-Lubavitch as a group thereupon split into two factions. One faction continues to this day to publicly claim that the Rebbe will return to complete the second plateau criteria of Maimonides' Laws of Kings Chapter 11 Law# 4 which is Judaism's bottom Legal line on who and what Moshiach will be and must do.. The other faction has decided to keep quiet and see how things turn out.

We have a most interesting situation here surrounding this event. Non Lubavitch sectors of Orthodox Judaism have gone ballistic against this Lubavitch Messianism. They slander it as Chabadianity and treif.

Did the Rebbe have an overinflated opinion of himself? Did and do his Chassidim have a similarly overinflated opinion of him?

Can it be that after a brilliant 42 year history of creating the greatest outreach organization in Jewish history that the Lubavitcher Rebbe made an egregious error and chillul Hashem by such proclamations regarding himself?

Besides flitting from one rabbi to another for an opinion on this topic... is there a way to get to an objective bottom line understanding?

I was there when these events occurred. I lived through them from the inside. This matter has literally taken over my life due to its seriousness.

I believe (and will soon present evidence here to that effect) that we have independent corroboration from God that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was/is right about his being our long awaited Redeemer, Moshiach Tzidkeinu.

No fewer than 13 Sources from Kaballah and Chassidic Prophetic writings affirm a resurrected Moshiach for Judaism. Moshiach coming from the dead is clearly stated as an option in Talmud Sanhedrin 98b bottom of the page.

The emotions surrounding this are very high and prone to anger.

Let us rise above that wrong approach. Let us calmly examine the evidence and Jewish Sacred Sources with the seriousness of a doctor looking at a patients x-ray. In fact the matter even requires greater seriousness than that!

We got a situation here folks! One that requires the greatest possible scrutiny for clarification, verification or....rejection.

For starters learn this Law from Rambam by heart. You will need it for this thread. We will dissect Maimonides on this topic for starters. Rambam's Law is where this Moshiach matter surrounding the Rebbe gets klobbered or affirmed as kosher and true.

Wanna take a ride?
_______________________
Mishna Torah

Laws of Kings and their Wars

Maimonides (Rambam)

Chapter 11

Law#4. If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply into the study of the Torah and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G-d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Moshiach.
He will then perfect the entire world, [motivating all the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah, 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."
________________________

This Law has 2 plateaus of criteria. List each of them and keep handy for future reference.

A Sweet and Happy New Year to all. Shanna Tova. Ketivah V'Chatimah Tovah

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Moshe Yess]

From the warmth of its mothers womb a baby emerges into the air and cries. A rude awakening.

For the first few months one can safely assume that the baby is aware of its hunger, its mother and its crib.

Consciousness grows with age. First comes an awareness of the baby's room then other rooms in its home. Then stroller trips introduce the baby to outside of home realities. Abilities grow as well....crawling, walking, increased size and strength.

The sense of self develops with age and eventually an individual blossoms. Pre-teen, teen, young adult, adult.

At some point above being aware merely of the self, others and the world...this individual experiences the many subtle facets of life and nature.

At this point a critical junction and opportunity is arrived at. Some fundamental questions arise. What made all of this? What made me? What is this suspended blue ball in space? Why are we here? Where are we headed? What is the purpose of our being here?

With a little contemplation one can readily see an Intelligence which is driving all the various events. There is a discernable pattern. As a block of marble only becomes a work of statuary art by the intelligent design and craft of the sculptor...similarly all of creation screams of a Cosmic Designer/Creator. While some never achieve this awareness or foolishly deny the Designer existence the one who does see the Designer in his or her mind has had an ephiphany: God IS!

A new level of consciousness blossoms. One can look back upon history and see past events occuring as a consequence of Divine Flow. But what is the Agenda of the Creator? Where is all this headed?

Torah teaches that the goalposts, the end game, the climax to all of this experience we are conscious of... is Moshiach. Moshiach (whatever that means and contains) is to where we are headed.
As Divine Flow brought us from creation to the present...that same Divine Flow is leading us to Moshiach.

Judaism articulates matters via Laws that are arrived at after painstaking processes that take years of study to achieve. Judaism has 1 Legal bottom line regarding identifying, validating and confirming beyond doubt who and what Moshiach will be and what he must do to be so deemed. That solitary undisputed Law is posted above.

The Moshiach identiication Law has 2 plateaus or two sections each with specific criteria.

Plateau One's criteria look like this:

1) King -hence a human Jewish male (as opposed to a celestial being.)
2) Lineage traces back to the House of David.
3) Great Torah Scholar
4) Personally observant of all applicable Torah Laws.
5) forces all of Israel to walk in the way of Torah
6) repears social breaches in Torah observance.
7) fights the Wars of God (explanation later)

Should an individual achieve the above 7 criteria the Law states that we can identify him with assurance as being Moshiach.
(More on "with assurance" later.)

Plateau Two's Criteria look like this:

1) If he is successful in all the above [criteria of plateau #1]
2) Builds the Holy Temple on its site
3) Ingathers all of Israel to the Holy Land.

Upon achieving these 3 criteria of plateau#2 we go from "with assurance" to "definitely Moshiach."

At first glance of this 2 stage/plateaus Law...one would assume that the matter can only be finally resolved after stage 2 is achieved by the candidate being evaluated for the position.

Truth be known...stage two does make it finally official. However, the primary novelty surround Moshiach and the Jewish Messianic Era is the revelation of the existence of Moshiach. Once his existence is somehow corroborated...then at that point we enter a new level of consciousness, namely, Moshiach IS.

If we are somehow able to lock-on to "Moshiach IS" we can then call upon numerous other Sacred Jewish Sources that teach about what will happen as a result of knowing that Moshiach IS.

In 1991 over 1,000 Chabad-Lubavitch Rabbis signed a Psak Din (a formal Jewish Legal Ruling) stating that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was presumed [assuredly/with assurance] to be Moshiach (Judaism's King Messiah.)

That formal Jewish Legal Ruling in simple terms was nothing less than a formal statement testifying to a collective perception by themselves that Moshiach IS.

The firestorm of Orthodox Rabbinical controversy that arose after this proclamation was and still is horrific. Such was foreseen and stated to occur in Sacred Jewish Sources. The Sources also state that Moshiach will be recognized by but a few and rejected by most. That he will seemingly die and later reappear to greet the masses that will thereupon swarm to him.

So in a nut shell we have many Chabad Rabbis going public with the Rebbe being Moshiach and the vast majority of Orthodox Rabbis going public with "gimme a break and stop being ridiculous."

Any questions up to this point? Please ask only on what has been discussed till here.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
From the warmth of its mothers womb a baby emerges into the air and cries. A rude awakening.

For the first few months one can safely assume that the baby is aware of its hunger, its mother and its crib.

Consciousness grows with age. First comes an awareness of the baby's room then other rooms in its home. Then stroller trips introduce the baby to outside of home realities. Abilities grow as well....crawling, walking, increased size and strength.

The sense of self develops with age and eventually an individual blossoms. Pre-teen, teen, young adult, adult.

At some point above being aware merely of the self, others and the world...this individual experiences the many subtle facets of life and nature.

At this point a critical junction and opportunity is arrived at. Some fundamental questions arise. What made all of this? What made me? What is this suspended blue ball in space? Why are we here? Where are we headed? What is the purpose of our being here?




Parental influence and external stimuli plays an important part of any child’s development. In essence our ideas are a culmination of many thoughts and ideas molded together like putty and emerging formulated as one thought yet an culmination of many.

There’s always the first, the original, the prototype of the beginning and sometimes from that springs many. From the original comes more and yet the new retains a part of the original and so it goes the process referred to as life emerging as the now.

From the time that we are born we are continuously being subjected to ideas that are certainly not our own. Choice is rarely an issue and even if it was a young influential child is not in any position to reject ideas presented to him/her from their protectors.

It’s only later in life when the stage of rebellion emerges that we find the freedom to explore knowledge outside our fixed parameters. Still we remain prisoners of our past and future!

The question “What made all this” calls for an answer based on human observation but can be answered easily with a questions. Why does anything have to be made? Why can things exist in a never-ending state of now with the past and future emerging as the present?

What made me? Why does anything have to be made? Why cant you/I be an essence of “now” with no past or future?

What is this suspended blue ball in space? It’s integral part of a whole that cannot be separated. If the question were “why is this blue ball part of the universe?” then the answer would be it is.
Why are we here? Leaving the realm of human and microscopic observation could you truly argue that we have ever been anywhere else but here?

Where are we headed? This question assumes that time is constant and linear having a forward motion (so to speak). If we always remain in a moment off now without a past and a future how can we be headed anywhere?

Why does anything have to have a purpose? I believe that I’m here therefore I am here? Pursuing the concept of purpose takes thought and reasoning. Reasoning is a thing based on human observation and is subject to wide interpretation?

Life is all about waiting.

[sharonbn]

OK so where is this Mashiach? Where is the Lubavitcher?
I underatand he is dead for nearly 10 years.
You say - what? he is going to be resurrected? is he going to apear riding a white mule?

and when this mashiach arrives - what difference will it make? the Jews have already established their home and are living in it with out the help of some bogus helper.

I say enough of this saurcery and pagan customs. We don't want to go back to the middle ages with these primitive beliefs. We are living in the modern age, the age of science and reason.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
Rabbi Moshe Yess

I am curious to know if you are, in fact, a Rabbi in the sense of receiving "smicha" (ordination) from an accredited source.

I am asking because even though one could theoretically say that every Jew can be called "Reb Yid," etc., there is an expectation that one who calls himself "Rabbi" is in fact ordained as an authority on Judaism. And even in the case of Chabad, where most of the Bachurim (Yeshivah students) receive smicha, the vast majority of them do not function as religious authorities at all. Is this true in your case, Moshe? Would even Chabad support your claim of being a religious authority, or is your title of "Rabbi" just a little misleading?

Anyway, your views on the late Rebbe being Moshiach are not only incompatible with Judaism, but despite your claim of 1000 signatures of Chabad rabbis, Chabad itself, including rabbis who know you personally from L.A. and Montreal, do not believe your claims of Moshiach.

You say "The other faction has decided to keep quiet and see how things turn out." That's simply not true. Last I checked, there is no silence at all on this topic from the vast majority of Chabad regarding your position. On the contrary, they use terms like "crazy," "insane," and "counter-productive," as they feel strongly that your position hurts the cause of Chabad. This is why even in their own shuls they have cautioned you personally to avoid this topic, because it offends them and their communities.

I'm sorry to publicly say these things to you, but it is important to put all the facts in front of our audience here and speak openly about the use of the title "Rabbi," and to explain the huge disagreement about the minority of the minority, which you are part of, even within Chabad itself.

And another word about Chabad for those who may not be familiar with this faction within Judaism: It is a fine organization, which does an invaluable job of non-judgmental "kiruv" (bringing Jews closer to their traditions). It is ultra-Orthodox, and its members have a unique Chassidic appearance with special attire. But these are some of the best people I know. They are excellent emissaries of goodwill for Judaism and for basic human decency and kindness.

Please do not judge Chabad by the minority positions represented by Moshe Yess. Make your own judgements based on Chabad's good work and warm personality. Take the time to chat -- even if just for a moment -- with a Chabad person, and your views of Chassidim and Judaism in general might change forever in a very positive way.

And this is coming from me, a non-observant Jew who is certainly not part of Chabad.

[Mediocrates]

The Chabad view is everyone can be a better Jew. The credo is "not yet" as in "I'm not kosher" - "ok not yet", "I don't go to shul" - "ok not yet". You can.

[Moshe Yess]

THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED BY MYSELF FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION.

RABBI MOSHE YESS


Dear Newsguy,

You wrote:

"I'm sorry to publicly say these things to you, but it is important to put all the facts in front of our audience here and speak openly about the use of the title "Rabbi," and to explain the huge disagreement about the minority of the minority, which you are part of, even within Chabad itself."

REPLY:

I am smirking at your gullibility and naiveite. You have come into a hornet's nest of seeming controversy and took the cheap and low road by asking about my ordination and attempting to discredit me and disassociate myself from any mainstream Chabad thinking. Nice try. You loose. Do that again and I will ignore you forever.

If you are sincerely seeking truth about this matter as opposed to bashing me personally and what I have to share then here is your first step:

At this URL below you will see first hand from the Lubavitcher Rebbe's own writings that he ----in no uncertain terms ----- identified himself not only as Moshiach but Moshiach Tzidkeinu. Do you have the courage to go to source material or are you only capable of asking an ordained Rabbi? Have you an independent brain to examine the evidence first hand?

http://www.moshiach.net/blind/ahwru/chap_1-0.htm

Now that we have before us from the Rebbe's own teachings that he identified himself as Moshiach Tzidkeinu, Judaism's sole and Final Righteous Redeemer, we have a few questions that arise from this.

1) Why is Chabad of Israel and some parts of Chabad America still going very public with this message even after his supposed "passing" in 1994?

Here again is the proof of this present endeavor:

http://www.radiomoshiach.org/rmr_multimedia.htm

http://www.770live.com/home.htm

http://www.moshiach.net/blind/tvom-index.htm

Are the Rabbis behind these sites any less ordained than the one's opposing this activity?


So...up to now....we will summarize what is before us:

1) A Chassidic Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, identified himself as Moshiach Tzidkeinu.
2) His followers (the vast majority in Israel being astounding, ordained, Rabbinic scholars..... well versed in many Moshiach Sacred Sources from Judaism which you and most American Chabad Rabbis have never even bothered to study).... still continue to do so.

With this before us we have now a world Jewish communal dilemma. We have to get to the truth or falsity of this matter. Was the Rebbe wrong about himself? Are his Chassidim who still proclaim him to be Moshiach also wrong? Or is there, somewhere in Judaism, an independent corrorboration which affirms the truth to the Rebbe's declarations about himself?

AHA!!! Now we shall learn. Actually..you need to learn (unless your mental circuitry is so hard wired to reject the facts that any amount of evidence will be rejected no matter what is placed before you.)

Prophecy comes from God. Our Midrashim (Torah Commentaries)are chock full of Prophecy. The Yalkut Shimoni is a compendium of Prophetic Midrashim from the days of our Sages of the Talmud.

Before the Gulf War, on the second night of Sukkot (October 5, 1990), the Rebbe began to quote an ancient passage from the Yalkut Shimoni, a 14th century anthology of Midrashic litrature: "In the year that [Judaism's] King Messiah will be revealed, nations will challenge one another. The King of Paras will challenge the King of Aram ... and the entire world will panic and will be stricken with consternation ... Israel will also panic and will be confounded."
The Rebbe went on to explain that the King of Paras refers to the present-day Iraq. The King of Aram refers to the world's superpowers (for Aram is related to the word "rom" which means "uplifted").
This ominous situation, however, heralds the ultimate good -- the coming of [Judaism's] King Messiah and the final Redemption.

Hence...none less than God, Himself, has independently corroborated via Prophecy given to the Sages compiled in that Yalkut Shimoni as well as God Authoring the Gulf War....None less than God Himself!!! has independently corroborated what the Rebbe stated as being true.

The message from God via that Prophecy found in the Yalkut is: When the Gulf War occurs Moshiach self reveals.

Now...Judaism now has a Legalese issue. Rambam's Laws of King's Chapter 11:4 (which regulates this matter for Judaism) states that if Moshiach is killed he is disqualified. IT DOES NOT STATE THAT IF HE DIES HE IS DISQUALIFIED! Get that distinction?

A "dead" Moshiach is not disqualified by his "passing." As I will show you now....the "passing" of Moshiach is part of the process
of Moshiach's ultimate revelation.

To add even more certainty to the ' "dead" yet still valid Messiah' matter ponder this next Sacred Jewish Source:

The Midrash, Bamidbar Rabba 11:2, (an explanatory commentary to Torah with the Authority of Mount Sinai) explains that Moshiach [Judaism's King Messiah] will reveal himself and then hide himself, whereupon, before he is definitively recognized, whoever believes in him and follows him will be content to eat the root of the broom and leaves of plants."

Additionally...no fewer than 13 Kaballah and Chassidic works, written under Ruach HaKodesh (Prophetic Spirit) testify to a resurrected Moshiach for Judaism. They sit next to me in my study.

Seeing as how Jewish Law requires every Chossid to obey a Proven Prophet (which the Rebbe was and is)...
Seeing as how it is forbidden to argue with one's Rebbe.....(Hilchos Talmud Torah chapter 5:1
Seeing as how the Holy Book, Sefer Avkat Rochel, has neatly set out for us every major event that has occurred since the Holocaust as well as other Sources which have foretold the peace with Egypt, the World Wars, Sept.11, the impact of Jupiter by the Levy-Shoemaker 9 asteroid....all being events foretold to occur just prior to Moshiach's arrival....

Therefore the only accurate answer to the overiding question of whether the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach in actuality even after his "passing" has nothing to do with the consensus of opinions floating around Chabad Incorporated or its "ordained" Rabbis. Neither does it have anything to do with Dr. Rabbi Berger's bashing of Chabad. Nor does it have anything to do with Litvak Roshei Yeshivos nor other Chassidic Rebbe's and their equally stupid opinions.


We have an event happening here independently corroborated by God via Prophecy found in numerous Sacred Jewish works

Can you handle that information, Sir? Or does God also need ordination before you will listen to Him?

In fact....Rabbi Chaim Vital, pupil of the AriZal specifically states in his work, 400 Silver Shekels, page 68 "Moshiach will be revealed, yet no one will perceive him. He will be hidden away....later revealed completely....whereupon the entire Jewish people will flock to him."

So may I suggest that if official ordination of your Rabbi is your pre-requisite to learning Torah from him.... then leave me alone. I specifically chose NOT to get ordination. Ordination is the politicalization of Torah Judaism today. Chassidus was founded to oppose specificaly that. I have no kind words for the officially "Ordained" Rabbis of Chabad America who decided to ignore the teachings and directives of their Rebbe in fear of loosing more donations from their money supporters.

If you read the Rebbe's discourse from Chaya Sara 1992 ...when the first International Convention of Shluchim was held in 770...you will cleary see that each and every Chabad Rabbi/Shliach was told that their solitary duty thenceforth was to prepare the world for the imminent arrival of Moshiach [which of necessity includes identifying who Moshiach is according to the many Blessings the Rebbe gave to those who informed him that they were going public with "the Rebbe being Moshiach" message!]

[url]http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/50/33.htm

You need to understand that many sectors of Chabad corrupted themselves. Dealing honestly with a resurrected Messiah issue in Judaism and telling it like it is to their congregations was just not seen as good for Chabad Incorporated business. It was seen as too controversial. It was felt as being embarrassingly similar to Christianity which ripped Judaism off of this original Jewish matter and repackaged it in the greatest lie ever shoved down the throats of mankind, namely, Jesus Christ.

As a result of this embarrassment.....instead of teaching their congregations about this matter from classic Jewish Sacred Sources (as was their duty and directive from their Rebbe)...
they instead abandoned their Rebbe, his Prophecy, his teachings and directives for their geveerim, their money givers. Where I come from that is the ultimate whoredom walking around in a long black coat and beard.

The first Law in the Shulchan Aruch is not to be embarrassed by anything Jewish. Moshiach is Jewish. The Rebbe is Jewish. A resurrected Moshiach for Judaism is Jewish. It is all kosher and yet the Rabbis of Chabad have chosen to retreat instead of doing what they were told to do.

Now that you have the sources, the facts and URL's to back them up....please go to your local Chabad Rabbis and ask them why they are just unable to get off their butts and do the jobs their Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, assigned to them to do.

Rabbi [see Ethics of the Fathers 6:3] Moshe Yess

[Moshe Yess]

Prior to his alleged "passing" the Lubavitcher Rebbe handed out 2 very relevent Chassidic discourses:

1) Zeh Yiteinu.......wherein he explains why Moshiach must seemingly "die" and what he is doing after his "death" and why his "death" is a part of the resurrection/reappearance that will follow.

2) Yakov Aveinu Lo Meis...wherein he explains that even though kaddish was recited and even though there was a levya.....Yakov, Jacob our forefather, did not die...even though that is what appeared to happen to the Egyptians.


Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Justicator]

I'll ascribe to whatever group made these qualifications about this subject .

On the contrary, they use terms like "crazy," "insane,"

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by Justicator
I'll ascribe to whatever group made these qualifications about this subject .

On the contrary, they use terms like "crazy," "insane,"

No less crazy than the holocaust and 9-11... both of which were forecasted in Sacred Jewish Sources.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
No less crazy than the holocaust and 9-11... both of which were forecasted in Sacred Jewish Sources.
Its funny how these predictions always become common knowledge only in retrospect.
The easiest thing to say is "I told you so".

Rabbi, maybe you can browse these magical sacred Jewish sources and reveal to us in advance what and when will the new catastrophe strike?

[Justicator]

Rabbi, maybe you can browse these magical sacred Jewish sources and reveal to us in advance what and when will the new catastrophe strike?

He might if he reads Revelations .

[Moshe Yess]

QUOTE:

Rabbi, maybe you can browse these magical sacred Jewish sources and reveal to us in advance what and when will the new catastrophe strike?

Ahhhh! nothing I like more than doubting Thomases! With pleasure do I now share the future with you. It regards Jerusalem. It will be imminent. And you will live to see it happen on CNN.

(BTW...revelations belongs in the trashcan)

Zecharaya 14

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses
rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of
battle.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the
west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the
north, and half of it toward the south.

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark.

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to
pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the
former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name
one.

All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be
lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the
corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be
safely inhabited.

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORDwill smite all the people that have fought against
Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall
consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them;
and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against
the hand of his neighbour.

And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be
gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the
beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against
Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to
keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to
worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague,
wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep
the feast of tabernacles.

In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the
pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they
that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no
more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[sharonbn]

as an Israeli, I have a hard time reading this archaic English translation of the bible.
from what I understand, Jerusalem will be conquered by all the nations in the world, and then god will create some kind of an earthquake and also will bring a plague upon all these people and after that only Jews will be left in the world.

and that will be on CNN? OK

WHEN? do you have a date?

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by sharonbn
as an Israeli, I have a hard time reading this archaic English translation of the bible.
from what I understand, Jerusalem will be conquered by all the nations in the world, and then god will create some kind of an earthquake and also will bring a plague upon all these people and after that only Jews will be left in the world.

and that will be on CNN? OK

WHEN? do you have a date?



http://groups.msn.com/MessiahWatchInternational/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us



Rabbi Moshe Yess

[sharonbn]

Your site looks impressive and invested but all it speaks about is the Lubavicher as the mashiach plus some more examples of retrospect predictions.

sorry, the only way to convince me is to give a predictions of a future event, with details such as places and dates. otherwise there's no difference between the kabala and Nostradamus.

Sharon.

[NewsGuy]

btw - Just noting that Moshe's "evidence" so far conists of some quotes attributed to the now-deceased Rebbe.

And, just as importantly, Moshe is NOT a rabbi, although he is posing as one.

Still, he is entitled to believe what he wants, no one is arguing that concept.

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
btw - Just noting that Moshe's "evidence" so far conists of some quotes attributed to the now-deceased Rebbe.

And, just as importantly, Moshe is NOT a rabbi, although he is posing as one.

Still, he is entitled to believe what he wants, no one is arguing that concept.

Dear Newsguy,

Inclusive with your ignorance is a mean-spirited stupidity and arrogance.

Your assumption is that only ordained Rabbis are "real" Rabbis.
How stupidly common of a misperception. As I stated.... many Jews are hoodwinked by this institutionalization of the role of teacher. It's good for Rabbinic business.

You need to study the history of ordination and Rabbinical incomes in Jewish history. You have a myopic West Coast limited experience with Rabbis which easily accounts for your misunderstandings.

Then you need to study the life of Maimonides...who, although is accepted by every ordained and/or unordained Rabbi as legally authoritative....never himself acquired ordination.

Then you need to learn even a bigger lesson:...shut your mouth when you don't know what you are talking about. That way the information goes into the brain instead of the stupidity coming out of the mouth.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Moshe Yess]

OK..you two puppies. First of all....have the decency to capitalize the "G" when writing the word "God" when it refers to our Creator.

Every Prophecy in the Torah has manifested itself on the stage of Jewish history. Abraham was informed by God that his decendents would be enslaved and such did occur in Egypt. Not one Prophecy relating to events prior to our days has failed to manifest itself. That is the provable track record of the Torah and hence verified "proof" to it's Divine Origin.

Now on to the absence of precise dates. Precise dates are omitted for this reason: If I or anyone were able to target a specific date for a Prophecy that would remove free will. How so? Only a fool would ignore a Prophet that targeted dates with precision regarding future events. Free will is a "must have" component of reality as God makes it. Otherwise there would be no merit for believers in the Torah nor punishment for those who scoff against the Torah.

Neither I nor any other Rabbi have any duty nor desire to convince you.
Your belief or disbelief is not a prize we are chasing. The onus is upon you to study and learn. That way you grow in wisdom. With this objective in mind ponder the following>>>>

1) By definition a Prophecy is a fact...albeit one which exists in the future.

2) A Prophecy is the foreknowing of God regarding future events imparted to unique individuals by God.

Now that we have somewhat of a grip on this Prophecy topic..and hopefully you two doubting "know it alls" will be able to ingest instead of blabbing stupidities and conditions...read the following for your betterment.
____________________________________

"But as we all know, the Rebbe passed away several years ago and the only ones even thinking of Moshiach seem to be Chabad Chassidim who say the Rebbe still is a valid candidate. Can they be right?"

Part 3 - Can the Lubavitcher Rebbe Still be Moshiach?


...but as we all know the Rebbe passed away several years ago. Now the question remains; can the Rebbe still be Moshiach? Can the Moshiach come from the dead?

The answer is surprisingly enough, a resounding yes!


In the second to the last Rashi (the foremost explainer of the scripture and the Talmud, printed in every text) in the book of Daniel, (12:12) he writes: "The Moshiach will reveal himself and then be concealed.... and then revealed once more, and so it says in the Midrash on Ruth and in the poems of Rabbi Eliezer HaKalir."


So it states in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b), "If the Moshiach comes from the dead he will be someone like Daniel." Rashi there explains this to mean exactly what it says; Moshiach can come from the dead.

The great and holy scholar, Rabbi Chiam Midini, in his work Sdei Chemed (Peyas HaSadeh, Maareches "Alef", os Eyin), elaborates on this, and connects this Talmudic statement to an earlier one (ibid 98a) referring to the prophecy of Daniel: "If the generation is fortunate the Moshiach will come from the dead, i.e. on "clouds of heaven," and then everyone will accept him with no reservations. But if not he will come from the living, i.e. riding on a donkey (lit. "chamor", which also means "physical" in Hebrew)".


And so agrees the Holy Chacham Yosef Chiam (The Ben Ish Chai) in his commentary on Sanhedren 98 in his book "Ben Yhoyada", that Moshiach can come from the dead. (he also explains the topic there of Moshiach ben Yosef and how he can also be Moshiach)


The Zohar in Parshat Balak (pg. 203b) states that the Moshiach will have to "die"' i.e. go to a higher spiritual level, and return again with the new level he has attained.

So writes the famous Rabbi Yitzchak Luria in the eleventh chapter of his work "Shaar HaKavanot", that after the Moshiach arrives, he will be hidden in heaven like Moshe was hidden on Mount Siani, and then he will appear again.

Finally the Abarbanel states in his book "Yeshuot Moshicho" (Part 2, topic 2, chapter 1) that "the Moshiach will have to die in order to purify the
generation...and he will wait in a spiritual state in 'heaven' until it he rises from the dead, as it says in the Talmud Sanhedrin (98b).

All the above were sources from several hundred years ago supporting the idea that Moshiach CAN come from the dead.

Here is a letter just written in 1996, two years after the Rebbe’s passing, by the great contemporary Torah Genius and Orthodox leader Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik in response to the complaint by a certain Jewish group in America against Chabad Chassidim that believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe was, and still is, the Moshiach.

(Many of them continue the practice, which begun over a year before the Rebbe’s passing by all Chassidai Chabad, of announcing after each of the three daily prayers "Long live our Master, our Teacher, and our Rebbe, the King Moshiach, forever!")


The following is Rav Solovicheik's statement:

"The following is in response to many inquiries about my position on the Lubavitch movement vis-a-vis its Messianic beliefs.

Before the passing of the Rebbe, I included myself among those who believed that the Rebbe was worthy of being Moshiach. I strongly
believe that had we - particularly the Orthodox community - been united, we would have merited to see the complete Redemption.

Insofar as the belief held by many in Lubavitch - based in part on similar statements made by the Rebbe himself concerning his predecessor, the Previous Rebbe – including prominent Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva, that the Rebbe can still be Moshiach, in light of the Gemara in Sanhedrin, the Zohar, Abarbanel, Kitvei HaArizal, Sdei Chemed and other sources, it cannot be dismissed as a belief that is outside the pale of Orthodoxy.

Any cynical attempt at utilizing a legitimate disagreement of interpretation concerning this matter in order to besmirch and to damage the Lubavitch movement - that was and continues to be in the forefront of those who are battling the missionaries, assimilation and indifference - can only contribute to the regrettable discord that already plagues the Jewish community, and particularly the Torah community.

The Torah community should galvanize all of its energies to unite in the true spirit of Ahavat Yisrael, and battle the true enemies of Israel. I repudiate and call for an end to all efforts to discredit Lubavitch or any other legitimate movement within Torah Judaism."

Ahron Solovechik

All this comes to teach us that the Moshiach, although he is flesh and blood etc, nevertheless is not anything that we can really understand in any normal way, just as we cannot understand what a Jew is in any normal sense. And it could very well be that he will come from the dead.

(The reason that 'the Nazarene' was not Moshiach is because he, rather than fulfilling the Torah, transgressed and caused others to transgress almost every law until this very day. The true Moshiach will fight to bring the whole Jewish People back to the Written and Oral Torah of Moses, as transmitted by our sages, and to close up the breaches in its observance and certainly not do the opposite, G-d forbid. (See Mishna Torah, Laws of Kings, Chap. 11.)

[Interesting to note that recently a University lecturer has published a book disregarding all the above information, as well as the above-quoted letter that Rav Soloveichick wrote (against him). Although he brings no proofs whatsoever for his radical conclusions, contradicts the Torah (and himself), and demonstrates surprising ignorance and suspicion regarding the Jewish view of Moshiach, he is generating a great interest in the subject. Anyone with questions please write me at: yeshiva@orhtmimim.org ]



But there is another option; that the Rebbe did not die at all. Consider this in light of what the Talmud says (Taanit 5b) that Yaakov Avinu never died. Perhaps this is what the above commentaries (Rashi on Daniel, Ari Zal etc.) mean when they say that Moshiach will just be "hidden".
___________________________________

Now...Newsboy needs to take the following, copy and print it out and then take it to his local Chabad "Ordained Rabbi" and ask:

Why have you omitted educating your congregation about these matters when your Rebbe specifically instructed you to do so in 1991-2?

From directives to his Rabbinnic emmissaries found in Sichos Kodesh, Parsha Chaya Sara, Tof Shin Nun Beis:


Every shliach [Chabad Rabbi] should realize that he is responsible to explain the above concepts to all the individuals in his city. He must convey to them, in a manner which they can understand and relate to, the imminence of Mashiach's coming and the need to study about Mashiach and the Era of the Redemption.



Rabbi Moshe Yess

[sharonbn]

Rabbi,

first of all, with your unprovoked personal attacks on NewsGuy and myself, you have, yet again, proven your utter intolerance towards beliefs and ideals other than your own.
You have also, yet again, demonstrated that when your beliefs come under a rational and articualted attack, you are unable to give rational articulate answers and must resolve to an offending personal language, typical of a chidlish character that not used to using his own brain and must rely on higher authority for answers.

I, for one, cannot seriously take the words of a primitive intolerant childlish person. I, unlike you, regard myself as a thinking person, and several long and archaic qoutes from some rabbi are not anough.

Now, as for your predictions. Without any means of verification, these sayings are superstitious beliefs no more serious than your local newspaper's astrological "predictions" or the writings of Nostradamus (which many people believe in, btw). Sorry, but I just cannot "take your words for it".
In any case, if these predications are bound to happen - is this not opposite free will? If there is free will, then there is a chance that these predications will not materialize.

[NewsGuy]

Moshe is now learning a very important religious and societal lesson, which is the importance of what is known in Hebrew as "Derech Eretz," (common courtesy).

[Clive Campbell]

As a Christian Gentile, I find this thread fascinating--mainly because it indicates that many Jews believe their Messiah must be resurrected from the dead, exactly what Christians believe occurred with Jesus of Nazareth (really of Bethlehem--Micah 5:1,2). If many Jews are going to consider whether the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah, maybe they should also consider whether Jesus was.

The increased interest in the Messiah is coming at the right time, however. As I understand it, many Jews for millennia have believed that the Messiah would come in the sixth millennium to usher in a seventh Sabbath millennium. I presume this belief came from the Genesis creation "week" and Psalm 90:4:

"For a thousand years in Thy sight
Are like yesterday when it passes by ...."

A corresponding Christian New Testament verse is 2 Peter 3:8:

"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

The Jewish calendar puts the year at 5763, but it is wrong! The biggest error is the 420 years assigned from the dedication of the second temple in 515 BCE to its destruction in 70 CE, clearly 585 years. The correct year is 5972! The correct biblical and historical chronology looks like this:

14 billion (?) years ago: "In the beginning God created the heavens"
4.5 billion (?) years ago: "God created ...the earth."
3970 BCE: God and Adam. God began to move the earth closer to the sun into its present orbit from a more distant orbit over four years (the creation "week" was seven years long; Adam and Eve created in 3965 BCE).
2970 BCE: Lamech and Noah
1970 BCE: Terah and Abraham
970 BCE: David and Solomon
30 CE: Jesus and early Christian Church
1030 CE: The Cluniac reform in the Christian Church
2030 CE: The Christian Rapture (2023), Moses and Elijah preaching in Jerusalem (2023 for 3 1/2 years) resulting in a redeemed Israel, and Messiah Jesus (2030)!
3030 CE: End of the Sabbath Millennium, the first 1000 years of the eternal state.

The chronology is striking and quite straightforward based on the Hebrew Scriptures and known historical dates (e.g., founding of the first temple in 966 BCE).

Also, if my interpretation of the Old Testament is correct, 2003 is going to be a very significant year. I believe the biblical prophecies indicate that a sixth Arab-Israeli war will be over in 2003 with the following results:

--Israel will wrongly deport the Palestinians to Jordan.
--Israel will viciously possess Jordanian land on the east side of the Jordan River (Gilead) and burn the bones of King Abdullah II of Jordan to lime. I don't know if that means a strike on his palace or all of Amman.
--Israel will possess Syria all the way past Damascus!

Israel will then have 20 years of peace before her judgment and the world's comes (2023-2030).

See if these things do not occur by the end of 2003! And then take note that I am a Christian Gentile.

[Advertisement deleted]

[Micah]

Originally posted by Clive Campbell
As a Christian Gentile, I find this thread fascinating--mainly because it indicates that many Jews believe their Messiah must be resurrected from the dead, exactly what Christians believe occurred with Jesus of Nazareth (really of Bethlehem--Micah 5:1,2). If many Jews are going to consider whether the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah, maybe they should also consider whether Jesus was.

Very close, but the Christian Jesus was definitely not the Messiah.



[...]

The Jewish calendar puts the year at 5763, but it is wrong! The biggest error is the 420 years assigned from the dedication of the second temple in 515 BCE to its destruction in 70 CE, clearly 585 years. The correct year is 5972! The correct biblical and historical chronology looks like this:

Interesting. I wonder why the Jews decided to stop counting the years for 209 years?



[...]

Also, if my interpretation of the Old Testament is correct, 2003 is going to be a very significant year. I believe the biblical prophecies indicate that a sixth Arab-Israeli war will be over in 2003 with the following results:

--Israel will wrongly deport the Palestinians to Jordan.
--Israel will viciously possess Jordanian land on the east side of the Jordan River (Gilead) and burn the bones of King Abdullah II of Jordan to lime. I don't know if that means a strike on his palace or all of Amman.
--Israel will possess Syria all the way past Damascus!

Israel will then have 20 years of peace before her judgment and the world's comes (2023-2030).

Wonder how you can wrongly deport a people to the country of their origin?

Also, if you want to use the Torah to predict these events, then you may also want to consider that the Torah doesn't allow anybody unwilling to be at least a Ger Toshav (Rightous Gentile) to stay in the land.


See if these things do not occur by the end of 2003! And then take note that I am a Christian Gentile.



You might consider reading this http://thirtysix.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Subjects&file=index&req=viewpage&pageid=19

Very interesting.

[Clive Campbell]

Dear Micah,

I read your suggested link and it was very interesting. Of course, I don't claim to know the day and hour of the Messiah's coming, only the year--2030, exactly 6000 years from "day" (year) one of the creation "week" (7 years). Jews for millennia have believed in this seven-millennia timeline and so did the early Christian Church Fathers, coming out of Jewish tradition. Many mistakenly thought they were in the sixth millennium, since Jesus was crucified on the sixth day of the week.

I am making a few other date predictions based on the Jewish and Christian Bibles too:

2003--end of sixth Arab-Israeli war
2020--completion of third Jewish temple and beginning of animal sacrifices there
2023--the Christian Rapture; the appearance of Moses and Elijah in Jerusalem, preaching Jesus, saving many Jews; the Jewish Antichrist out of the 10-nation (prophesied) CIS moves toward Israel, is killed, resurrected and possessed by Satan, and hailed as messiah by most Jews
3 1/2 years later--Moses and Elijah killed by the Jewish False Prophet and resurrected.

Re the Jewish calendar: it is not that the Jews stopped counting 209 years, but I suspect began their calendar sometime in history and goofed it up. One of their other errors in it was assuming that Abram was Terah's first-born, born when Terah was 70 years old. That clearly could not be because Abram was 75 years old when he left Haran, where Terah died at 205. I believe Haran was the first-born who died in Ur, along with Terah's two wives (Abram's and Sarai's mothers). Nahor was the next oldest (he married Haran's widow) and the youngest was Abram. He is mentioned first in the genealogy because he was the preeminent son. My guess is that Terah, Abram, Sarai and Lot set out from Ur to go to Canaan and Terah's health only permitted them to get to Haran and so they settled there, or God simply had them wait for a period. Anyway, Terah died and I suspect word was sent to Nahor who emigrated to Haran. I believe that Abram left Haran six years after Terah died, so Terah was 136 when Abram was born: another 66 years in error in the Jewish calendar.

Anyway, Micah, if you are interested you can follow it back--it is quite straightforward:

966 BCE--first temple founded
480 years earlier--the Exodus
430 years earlier--Abram leaves Haran
75 years earlier--Abram born
136 years earlier--Terah born
then simply follow the genealogies of Genesis 11 and 5 back to Adam
5 years earlier--first "day" (year) of the creation "week"

You arrive at 3970 BCE, and as I indicated, at every subsequent millennium--bang on--there is a spiritual "sunrise". That is no coincidence! It simply confirms what Jews and the Church Fathers believed! So expect the Messiah in 2030!

I'm curious where you think Jesus fell short as Messiah. I'm at least glad to hear that you think He came close.

Clive

[Micah]

Well, I agree with you that the Messiah is near. My dad has predicted (or he might have quoted Rabbi Pinchas Winston) that the Messiah will manifest himself in the next 2 or 3 years, and the actual Messianic kingdom will start at MAX in 27 years.

As for Jesus, the Christian Jesus is unequivocally NOT the Messiah. That is to say, what Christians depict as Jesus is not the Messiah. However, the New Testament is a very Jewish book. It talks of Judaism from start to finish.

But back to the calender, when was the last time you discussed that issue with a Rabbi or a knowledgable Jew? I don't consider myself knowledgable at all, so I wouldn't be a good candidate for discussing it. It does, however, make me sceptical when you say that Jews have used a faulty calender for thousands of years, when there are so my knowledgable Rabbis throughout history that could have easily seen hat problem, including the sages during temple times. It could also be an issue of oral law which doesn't make it obvious from the scriptures.

My dad would probably like to know about this calender issue though, so you should drop him a line at gkilli@aol.com.

[Clive Campbell]

Dear Micah,

Again, thanks for the reply. I have sent your father my book announcement and included in that is a blurb about the calendar issue, which I have asked him to feel free to email me on.

His predictions, though I don't know on what they are based, are interesting. Could Messiah's manifestation in the next two or three years be the fulfillment of these prophecies about a sixth Arab-Israeli war, i.e., showing that He is at work revealing His secrets to His people? And interestingly, 27 years after 2003 is 2030.

By the way, I forgot to comment on your justification for the deportation of the Palestinians to Jordan, which I predict for next year. They are not the Canaanites of old that Joshua was commanded to slaughter and drive out if they did not make peace with the Israelites. They are undoubtedly descendents of Lot (the Ammonites and Moabites) and Ishmael and Esau (Edom). Thus they are brothers to the Israelis, though most are Muslims. This is what Amos 1 says, though it is hidden in oracles to other nations, which are used figuratively for Israel, who is now uncircumcised of heart because she has rejected her Messiah. But He has not totally rejected her--He has restored her to her land as prophesied (Isaiah 11:11ff.) and will visit her at the end, saving all Jewish true Israel. Praise be to Him!

Clive

[Micah]

http://www.tckillian.com/greg/redemption.html

That's the study.

It's pretty long, so you better wait until you have alot of time on your hands before you start reading it =-]

By the way, I forgot to comment on your justification for the deportation of the Palestinians to Jordan, which I predict for next year. They are not the Canaanites of old that Joshua was commanded to slaughter and drive out if they did not make peace with the Israelites. They are undoubtedly descendents of Lot (the Ammonites and Moabites) and Ishmael and Esau (Edom). Thus they are brothers to the Israelis, though most are Muslims. This is what Amos 1 says, though it is hidden in oracles to other nations, which are used figuratively for Israel, who is now uncircumcised of heart because she has rejected her Messiah. But He has not totally rejected her--He has restored her to her land as prophesied (Isaiah 11:11ff.) and will visit her at the end, saving all Jewish true Israel. Praise be to Him!

If you read, you'll see that NO person unwilling to abide by the Laws of Noah may live in the land of Israel. It has nothing to do with Canaanites or Ishmaelites.

BTW, sharonb, that article my father wrote has some of his predictions based on Torah texts. They might not be as authoritative as if a Rabbi were to say them, but they are still predictions. We will, however, see how authoritative they are when the dates come about. (you'll notice that they aren't exact at all, moreof general time span between possible events)

[Clive Campbell]

Dear Micah,

I look forward to reading your father's work and I'll be in touch after I have had the opportunity.

Re the Palestinians in the land, do you mean they are required to obey the laws of Noah (not Moses?) to stay in the land? If that is the case, doesn't that exclude a lot of secular Jews in the country? Should they be driven out too and only the orthodox Jews remain? Don't you think that if the whole nation of Israel repented and turned to YHWH, that He might lead them out of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Shalom,
Clive

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Clive Campbell

Re the Palestinians in the land, do you mean they are required to obey the laws of Noah (not Moses?) to stay in the land? If that is the case, doesn't that exclude a lot of secular Jews in the country? Should they be driven out too and only the orthodox Jews remain? Don't you think that if the whole nation of Israel repented and turned to YHWH, that He might lead them out of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? OH NO!!!

:rolleyes: :eek: :eek:

[Micah]

Originally posted by Clive Campbell
Dear Micah,

I look forward to reading your father's work and I'll be in touch after I have had the opportunity.

Re the Palestinians in the land, do you mean they are required to obey the laws of Noah (not Moses?) to stay in the land? If that is the case, doesn't that exclude a lot of secular Jews in the country? Should they be driven out too and only the orthodox Jews remain? Don't you think that if the whole nation of Israel repented and turned to YHWH, that He might lead them out of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Shalom,
Clive

All who live in the land of Israel MUST observe at least the seven Laws of Noah. They are:

1. Not to deny God.

2. Not to blaspheme God.

3. Not to murder.

4. Not to engage in incestuous, adulterous, bestial or homosexual relationships.

5. Not to steal.

6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.

7. To set up courts to ensure obedience to the other six laws.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html

There are at least 2 there that I am very sure Secular Jews in Israel may have a beef about. #1 and #4 (namely, homosexual relationships).

However, if you notice, all of those except for the last one are all negative precipts. Meaning that you don't have to do anything follow 6 of the 7 commands.

Yes, if the the people of Israel would turn back to Hashem, this would all be settled very quickly.

If you may recall, Esau sold his birthright to Jacob. Isaac blessed Jacob, thinking it was Esau, and therefore Esau was and is to serve his brother. Gen 27 40-41 "Yet by your sword you shall live, And you shall serve your brother; But when you grow restive, You shall break his yoke from your neck. Now Esau harbored a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing which his father had given him, and Esau said to himself, Let but the mourning period of my father come, and I will kill my brother Jacob."

Notice, "But when you grow restive, You shall break his yoke from your neck." My understanding is the Sages said that means that if Jacob, I.E. Israel (as he was renamed) were to go astray from Torah, that Esau would stop serving Israel, and Israel would serve Esau, until the day that Israel as a people and as a nation turn back to Torah.

[Clive Campbell]

Dear Micah,

Thanks for the explanation of the laws of Noah. Since they are not in your or my Bible, where do they come from? And are they therefore authoritative?

I am sure you are right about the prophetic nature of those verses in Genesis regarding Esau and Jacob (Israel). However, are they a command to Israel or simply prophecy that God sovereignly will see Israel restored to her land?

The only basis that I have right now to claim that Israel will be wrong to deport the Palestinians is Amos 1 and 2. Note the interesting parallels there are in these 8 judgments:

-- The judgments against Damascus, Gaza, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, Moab, Judah and Israel are all structured the same way, except the final one to Israel does not have the final judgment beginning "So I will send fire ..." or "So I will kindle a fire ...".
--Damascus threshed Gilead (east of Jordan River--in Jordan today) with implements of sharp iron. Ammon ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead in order to enlarge their borders.
--Gaza deported an entire population to deliver it up to Edom (area of Jordan today). Tyre delivered up an entire population to Edom. Moab burned the bones of the king of Edom to lime.
--Tyre did not remember the covenant of brotherhood. Edom pursued his brother with the sword, while he stifled his compassion.

All of this makes me believe that the judgments are all figuratively addressed to Israel. One more hint of this is in the judgment against Damascus (figuratively Israel) where there is reference to Beth-eden (House of Eden). Jewish tradition holds that Adam was made of the dust of Israel and I believe that. (I believe that Eden was at the site of Jerusalem and as God's story began with seven years of creation and the site of Jerusalem, it is going to end with seven years of destruction and Jerusalem.)

If I am right, then the deportation referred to in 1:6 and 1:9 is the deportation of the Palestinians to Jordan, the king of Edom killed in 2:1 is King Abdullah II of Jordan, and Jordanian land east of the Jordan River is going to see a vicious Israeli attack. (The boundaries of restored Israel in Ezek. 47:13ff., which are past Damascus, also include Gilead.) For these things and others Israel will be judged by fire twenty years later (2023-2030).

Clive

[Micah]

The Laws of Noah are in the Torah, and can be found in the story of Noah. However, they won't be spelled out. "These are the Laws of Noah..." won't be in there.

My dad lent a book to a friend of his today that has the exact verses which mention the laws which make up the Laws of Noah. If you can wait a week, I can have the exact verses. If you'd like them sooner, just looking between some lines in the story of Noah will do you good.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html

1. Not to deny God.

2. Not to blaspheme God.

3. Not to murder.

4. Not to engage in incestuous, adulterous, bestial or homosexual relationships.

5. Not to steal.

6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.

7. To set up courts to ensure obedience to the other six laws.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57402

Noahide Laws : Encyclopædia Britannica Article

also called Noachian Laws, a Jewish Talmudic designation for seven biblical laws given to Adam and to Noah before the revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai and consequently binding on all mankind.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16, the Babylonian Talmud listed the first six commandments as prohibitions against idolatry, blasphemy, murder, adultery, and robbery and the positive command to establish courts…
************

You would be well served to ignore messianic Christian or Jewish references to these. They are unusual and inaccurate interpretations, eg. #6 is oft listed as 'prevention of cruelty to animals' which is really not what it means or if it does is very simplistic.

[Micah]

Ya, I saw one of those and steered clear =-]

[Richardaaron1]

I am not exactly sure how this thread began on the Lubavitcher Rebbe as Moshiach and wound up bogged down in a discussion of the Noachide Laws, but a simple point should be made to end it: that is as 50% of the world's population is currently Muslim or Christian, at least that percentage follow these laws by default. Incidentally, this is the first interpretation of these laws I have seen, that mentions gay behaviour or relationships along with adultery.

According to my understanding of various Messianic traditions, in that age it will be the case that a majority of the world's people will follow the laws of Noah, but not necessarily become Jewish. I believe for this and a number of other reasons, that we are indeed in the Messianic Age, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a 'manchurian candidate' for that role. However, in my book "Jewish History and Divine Providence" published by Iuniverse.com and available on Amazon, I point out that there are actually many Messianic traditions in Judaism.

In both Talmud and Zohar, there is extensive mention of 2 rather than 1 Messianic figures, both called by specific names after their historical roles. The first is known as "Moshiach Ha-Yosef" after the biblical Joseph, and is a Warrior-politician, who gathers the exiles to Israel, builds a state there and establishes it. For me an obvious candidate for this was the very secular David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), who while with much help, did accomplish these things. The second Messianic role, the "Moshiach Ha-David" is conceived of as someone who revives piety and faithfulness within the Jewish population; essentially a master teacher, who never "dies."

This last point would seem to doom any possibility of a Messiah coming, except for one thing: Judaism doesn't believe in death anyway. Either in Olam Ha-Ba(the World to Come), or through reincarnation, all Jews souls survive their bodies and have a future life. We have no need of a Messiah dying and being resurrected to prove this is possible, although this proposition is still deeply held in some Orthodox circles.

For this writer, the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still alive as all Jews past and present are still alive, so to call him the Messiah is still quite possible. He has indeed turned more Jews onto Jewish practice, than any other figure in Jewish history, and has established a religious infrastructure, that frequently is the Jewish community to those who use it, all over the World.

To me, the point of discussing Noachide Laws, is that they are part of the context of the Messianic age. Realizing this, and the Messianic traditions of those who actually fulfilled these roles, is the point of this thread of discussion. Thanx - Rick Kulick, Washington, DC


Originally posted by Mediocrates
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html

1. Not to deny God.

2. Not to blaspheme God.

3. Not to murder.

4. Not to engage in incestuous, adulterous, bestial or homosexual relationships.

5. Not to steal.

6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.

7. To set up courts to ensure obedience to the other six laws.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57402

Noahide Laws : Encyclopædia Britannica Article

also called Noachian Laws, a Jewish Talmudic designation for seven biblical laws given to Adam and to Noah before the revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai and consequently binding on all mankind.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16, the Babylonian Talmud listed the first six commandments as prohibitions against idolatry, blasphemy, murder, adultery, and robbery and the positive command to establish courts…
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You would be well served to ignore messianic Christian or Jewish references to these. They are unusual and inaccurate interpretations, eg. #6 is oft listed as 'prevention of cruelty to animals' which is really not what it means or if it does is very simplistic.

[Tovah]

From what I understood, the Lubavicher Rebbe never claimed to be Moschiach- as a matter of fact he did not like others claiming that as well. Did you know the Rebbe? A Tzaddik yes, but Moschiach? I don't think so.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
The Chabad view is everyone can be a better Jew. The credo is "not yet" as in "I'm not kosher" - "ok not yet", "I don't go to shul" - "ok not yet". You can.

That's so true. I went to a Chabad/Lubavitch school when I was 14-16 (oyeish! what an age to leave public school for hebrew school). They were so patient with me and I was so clueless. I'm still not kosher and I still don't go to shul, but I do have good memories of them trying so patiently to work with me to become a better Jew. Really good people with radiant Jewish souls and an incredible love for torah.

[Tovah]

Yes, beautifully sweet people.

I studied Tanya with a Lubovicher Rabbi - but............
there was alot in there that I could not tolerate. Usually I can get beyond some of the issues about the'specialness' of Jewish souls and some of the concepts that go agains my feminist grain,but at one point I couldn't take it any more.

Sweet , homey, peaceful and accepting - yes they are wonderful and great ambassadors to the alienated Jewish community at large.