Way to go IDF

[GratefulFred]

(to the tune "Miss You" by the world's greatest rock n roll group - The Rolling Stones)

We've been holding back so long
Bomb shelters become our homes
Will they miss us?
They've been bombing up our towns
Sirens make our heads go round
When will we hit them?

Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh

Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh

Well, I've been waiting for this time
When the IDF will do what's right
When you shoot, don't miss them
I've been waiting for this day
Been waiting to hear us say
When the phone rings
It's just some friend of mine that says,
"Hey, Freddy, what's the matter man?
We're gonna by shootin' up Gaza at twelve
With some F-16s that are just dyin' to hit them.
I'm gonna bring a case of hanukah wine
Hey, let's go cook up some BBQ and watch them run accross the tube
You know, like they used to"

Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah

Now everyone do the funky chicken dance like Mick and hopefully the end of Hamas will be right around the corner.

[andak01]

So let me ask you. How much civilian blood needs to be spilled in order to quench your blood lust? We're already well past 10 to 1 and going up. The IDF's efforts to spare civilian lives with the latest precision weapons are over 10 times less efficient than Hamas' efforts to deliberately target civilians. And of course, with all these "accidents" another generation of terrorists will be born and you'll have more fish to shoot in a barrel. If you actually wanted to resolve the situation, you'd send in ground troops or do more police operations. But it is patently transparent to the world what Israel's goals are and the least of them is to stop Hamas aggression. Hamas is an effective and beneficial smokescreen.

[kozzol]

Unfortunately the general public of Gaza voted Hamas, a recognised terrorist organisation, so I think they should not be seen as civillians but also part and parcel of Hamas.

[scattergood]

So let me ask you. How much civilian blood needs to be spilled in order to quench your blood lust? We're already well past 10 to 1 and going up. The IDF's efforts to spare civilian lives with the latest precision weapons are over 10 times less efficient than Hamas' efforts to deliberately target civilians. And of course, with all these "accidents" another generation of terrorists will be born and you'll have more fish to shoot in a barrel. If you actually wanted to resolve the situation, you'd send in ground troops or do more police operations. But it is patently transparent to the world what Israel's goals are and the least of them is to stop Hamas aggression. Hamas is an effective and beneficial smokescreen.

Your focus on 'civilians' and 'kill ratios' is what is sick and disturbing. Your point is that if Hamas is effective in protecting themselves with civilian shields that will result in too many 'civilian' deaths, then Israel shouldn't attack them. You want to reward Hamas for putting 'civilians' in danger. That is just indicative of your passive support for them and your anti-Israel bias. Oh you say 'Israel should have the right to defend herself' but then in nearly every specific case you deride the action Israel takes.

[ShimonG]

About bloody time! Now wait for the islamic taqqiya to come and tell us why we jews are so wrong!!

[andak01]

Your focus on 'civilians' and 'kill ratios' is what is sick and disturbing. Your point is that if Hamas is effective in protecting themselves with civilian shields that will result in too many 'civilian' deaths, then Israel shouldn't attack them.

Well armed drug dealers operate out of urban areas around the world. You don't hear about the LAPD bombing appartment buildings after an officer gets killed. Even in a war zone like Iraq, massive civilian casualties are up for scrutiny and sometimes prosecution.

You want to reward Hamas for putting 'civilians' in danger. That is just indicative of your passive support for them and your anti-Israel bias. Oh you say 'Israel should have the right to defend herself' but then in nearly every specific case you deride the action Israel takes.

My "anti-Israel" bias is shared by the US government which also requested Israel to make efforts to reduce civilian casualties. I do not deride every action that Israel takes and neither clearly do they.

If I was so anti-Israel, I'd have criticized the attack itself, not the disproportionality of it. And if this was a unique or unusual instance, I'd give the benefit of the doubt. Doubtless there can be civilian casualties. But a consistant reliance on sending rockets into populated appartment buildings rather than sending ground forces is not a constructive way of ending terrorism.

[NewsGuy]

So let me ask you. How much civilian blood needs to be spilled in order to quench your blood lust?
Right. Terrorism apologists like you always find it to be no problem at all when Muslim groups shoot thousands of rockets into Jewish homes, schools, cities, etc., but if Israel defends itself, it's "bloodthirsty."

(Yes, yes, I know how much you "condemn" Hamas while in this forum, but conveniently not on any Muslim forums.)

If you were a true humanist as you claim, and if you were truly concerned about civilian deaths, you would be fighting the battle to stop the widespread support of terrorism among Muslims. The real problem is that the Muslim community worldwide -- including in the US and Europe -- has supported, justified, and excused Palestinian terrorism for decades, and so this is now the result.

Once Muslim groups like Hamas reject terrorism and stop trying to mass-murder all their neighbors, things might improve for everyone.

Interestingly enough, it seems that Muslims and their Leftist apologists have now decided that Muslim terrorists have the right to operate among civilians, and their victims should not be allowed to shoot back at the terrorists. Instead, the victims are being asked to shut up and keep on dying like all good infidels should do... I don't think this will fly...

[codedvirus]

Well armed drug dealers operate out of urban areas around the world. You don't hear about the LAPD bombing appartment buildings after an officer gets killed. Even in a war zone like Iraq, massive civilian casualties are up for scrutiny and sometimes prosecution.


:clap:...Good Point....:rock:

Does LAPD have rights to bomb a building....:p

[scattergood]

Well armed drug dealers operate out of urban areas around the world. You don't hear about the LAPD bombing appartment buildings after an officer gets killed. Even in a war zone like Iraq, massive civilian casualties are up for scrutiny and sometimes prosecution.

WOW, your stupidity and hypocrisy know no bounds, do they?

Which is Hamas, the democratically elected governemnt or a the equivalent to a band of drug dealers? If they are no more than drug dealers then let's have the Israeli army and police force roam the streets of Gaza, then you might have a point in comparing the LAPD to the IDF. Until then you have no real leg to stand on.

Hamas is the elected government ruling in Gaza. They get benefits, like being able to pass laws that run the area, control education, control property rights, etc. and they have resposibilities like cleaning up the streets and making sure that thousands of rockets aren't lobbed from their territory into a neighboring territory. A gang of drug dealers hasn't been democratically elected, has not one of the responsibilites, and not one of the benefits.



My "anti-Israel" bias is shared by the US government which also requested Israel to make efforts to reduce civilian casualties. I do not deride every action that Israel takes and neither clearly do they.

If I was so anti-Israel, I'd have criticized the attack itself, not the disproportionality of it. And if this was a unique or unusual instance, I'd give the benefit of the doubt. Doubtless there can be civilian casualties. But a consistant reliance on sending rockets into populated appartment buildings rather than sending ground forces is not a constructive way of ending terrorism.

So what is proportionate? Let Israel lob a few thousand rockets / mortars / artillery shells into Gaza without aim? That seems to be the equiavlent level of attack.

The Proportionate Response argument is just stupid. In WWII, Japan ONLY attacked one harbor and killed 3000 US military personnel. Would the 'Proportionate Response' be for the USA to bomb the hell out of Tokyo harbor and stop when x number of Japanese soldiers had been killed and y number of ships had been sunk? Of course not.

The Proportionate Response position eventually becomes 'the side who is willing to get 1 more guy killed than the other wins'. Body counts, proportionality, etc. are just another way of saying, 'hey Israel don't use your power to defend yourself'.

[bararallu]

Well armed drug dealers operate out of urban areas around the world. You don't hear about the LAPD bombing appartment buildings after an officer gets killed. Even in a war zone like Iraq, massive civilian casualties are up for scrutiny and sometimes prosecution.

These are not "police actions." This is war. There are different rules, if indeed any rules since one side [Arabs] abrogates the Geneva conventions as a matter of course and expect the other party to abide by them. Comparing Drug Dealers and LAPD with the Hamas and IDF completely obfuscates the conflict and whitewashes Hamas and the people that voted them in.

[kozzol]

Muslims throughout the World cheer and clap when Hamas launch missiles on Israel, just like their fellow muslim brothers in Gaza and Israe do.

Now Israel has struck back, these same people are outraged. Why? Should these people, rather than cheering and clapping, have been condemning Hamas actions? if these fellow brother muslims had ,then we would not be where we are today.

[Yala]

Arabs always boast and act all tough when they are shooting rockets at kindergartens and dhimmis, then when you fight back you see them crying and whining on TV because as usual they are on the losing side and not nearly as tough as they thought they were/are. Then they send their apologists to every media outlet and online forum to call the other side brutal and counting death ratios and to say they are committing a genocide, blah blah blah. It has all become so predictable.

[redcake]

Well armed drug dealers operate out of urban areas around the world. You don't hear about the LAPD bombing appartment buildings after an officer gets killed.

Do us a favor. When you're making your dumb comparisons at least make educated ones.

Ever hear of the LAPD's CRASH unit?
Aware that NYPD used tanks to remove squaters?
Does bombing a city block in Philadelphia ring a bell?

Probably not. Not like you're ready to defend your Hamas as well armed drug dealers comparison anyway.

[Mosche]

Andak wrote:

If I was so anti-Israel, I'd have criticized the attack itself, not the disproportionality of it. And if this was a unique or unusual instance, I'd give the benefit of the doubt. Doubtless there can be civilian casualties. But a consistant reliance on sending rockets into populated appartment buildings rather than sending ground forces is not a constructive way of ending terrorism.

I always find the "disproportionality" argument to be a bogus argument. What does it mean to fight a war proportionally? Is it 2:1? 3:1? 10:1? There is no set proportion. I always assume that the real argument is: We hit you, and you hit us back...HARDER THAN WE HIT YOU!

Duh!

[andak01]

You're three for three on this one. Two that didn't use aerial bombings and one that did and was considered a total failure.

Do us a favor. When you're making your dumb comparisons at least make educated ones.

Ever hear of the LAPD's CRASH unit?

First off, they bombed buildings? Not that I could find. Second, this unit was discredited and disbanded.

The so call CRASH units were disbanded after a series of revelations that they had been framing and torturing Latino youths as well as planting evidence and intimidating witnesses in order to secure convictions. A CRASH police officer broke the scandal after he became an informant in order to get a lighter sentence for stealing 3 kilos of cocaine from the police evidence room. The LAPD corruption scandal has been unraveling ever since.

http://aztlan.net/cuacua6.htm

Aware that NYPD used tanks to remove squaters?

Again NYPD didn't bomb residential buildings. And the number of civilian deaths due to Tanks in Alphabet City was??? Zero?

PS, I have never criticized the use of tanks in Gaza. Most of the out of proportion civilian casualties have come from aerial bombardment, not from tanks. In fact, I hope that ground troops are used, as that will probably reduce civilian casualties.

Does bombing a city block in Philadelphia ring a bell?

A notorious and expensive failure.

Philadelphia has spent $42 million in financial settlements, investigation and rebuilding to try to fix what happened that day. It was a law enforcement failure so spectacular that it would not be equaled until the siege near Waco eight years later. A month ago, 24 homeowners won a $12 million suit against the city for the botched rebuilding and repairs of their homes.

"We're still in it," says Mayor John Street, who was a city councilman in 1985. "It's the never-ending story."

The memory of the bungled decisions and bad judgment that led police to drop a satchel of explosives from a helicopter onto a residential neighborhood — and the horror that resulted — still stings.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-11-philadelphia-bombing_x.htm

I'm not defending Hamas any more than I'm defending MOVE or drug dealers. You think every criticism of the ATF's handling of Waco was a "defense" of the Branch Dravidians???

[bararallu]

IDF is not the Gaza police force. Is there some twilight zone reality being discussed here?

[redcake]

Exactly. Andak is trying to compare a military maneuver to a police force which is absurd.....

Now he's trying to make up for his own ignorance where police forces have adopted military tactics by saying they weren't successful and/or are irrelevant. It's like following a crazy person into an asylum to confirm for him that he's crazy, and having him mistake you for the crazy one because you're standing there right with him.

[Yala]

I think all Hamas apologists on this forum need to be ignored. They are recycling the old "disproportionate force" argument from the Lebanon war. I think when they start that up we can just direct them to the 2006 threads and be done with it.

[GratefulFred]

Hey stop ruining my thread. Come up with some clever song parodies and duel it out that way. This is "The Looney Bin" after all.

I'll work on another one later on to add some moral to our troops.

[andak01]

Exactly. Andak is trying to compare a military maneuver to a police force which is absurd.....

Now he's trying to make up for his own ignorance where police forces have adopted military tactics by saying they weren't successful and/or are irrelevant.

I'm not saying they weren't successful. THEY WERE FAILURES. With the possible exception of the use of tanks which resulted in no civilian fatalities. The Philadelphia action against MOVE ended as follows.

Mayor Wilson Goode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Goode) soon appointed an investigative commission, the PSIC or MOVE commission, which issued its report on March 6, 1986. The report denounced the actions of the city government, stating that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#cite_note-titlePhiladelphia_Special_Investigation_.28MOVE.29 _Commission_Manuscript_Collection-7)

In a 1996 civil suit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_suit) in U.S. federal court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_district_court), a jury ordered the City of Philadelphia and two former city officials to pay $1.5 million to a survivor and relatives of two people killed in the incident. The jury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury) found that the city used excessive force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excessive_force) and violated the members' constitutional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional) protection against unreasonable search and seizure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreasonable_search_and_seizure).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#cite_note-8)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE


It's like following a crazy person into an asylum to confirm for him that he's crazy, and having him mistake you for the crazy one because you're standing there right with him.

You justifying the use of bombs in residential areas when it produces ten times as many civilian casualties (according to Shin Bet) as Hamas is what's crazy.

What's crazy is giving an example of justification that has been condemned by the mayor of the city where it happened and a second example of a group that was disbanded for corruption as shining examples of where this has worked.

And craziest of all is the level of support this kind of wacked out logic gets on this forum. It isn't supported by the words of Haaretz or the US government or many other groups that nobody would consider calling Hamas apologists. But I (who has called for ground action in Gaza and accepted a level of civilian casualties) am refered to as a defender of Hamas because the defense for excessive bombing of civilian areas is bankrupt.

[bararallu]

But I (who has called for ground action in Gaza and accepted a level of civilian casualties) am refered to as a defender of Hamas because the defense for excessive bombing of civilian areas is bankrupt.

Andak, really... you cant call for ground action and "accept a level of civilian casualties". The Hamas are fanatics they will send in children and retarded folk women and old men with suicide belts and detonate them everywhere JUST TO MAKE ISRAEL LOOK BAD. They shelled a bunch of Gaza Christians waiting at the checkpoint because this is what they do. If you treat them like rational ethical, combatants I'm afraid to say you are seriously diluted and certainly no student of history.

[andak01]

Andak, really... you cant call for ground action and "accept a level of civilian casualties". The Hamas are fanatics they will send in children and retarded folk women and old men with suicide belts and detonate them everywhere JUST TO MAKE ISRAEL LOOK BAD.

And I would not count any of them as civilian casualties, because I've already stated my position on this and you can't find a single instance where I have referred to a suicide bomber as anything other than a terrorist.

They shelled a bunch of Gaza Christians waiting at the checkpoint because this is what they do. If you treat them like rational ethical, combatants I'm afraid to say you are seriously diluted and certainly no student of history.

I believe I am a student of history and I know very well how governments say one thing and do another. If the intention was to create a solution then attention would not be focused on a group that cannot create a solution but rather on the more moderate Fatah. Palestinians would not be all characterized by the actions of Hamas. And real efforts would be made by Israel to show the kind of moral high ground that they claim to have rather than 10 wrongs make a right. Because I believe that many Israelis believe in such constructive solutions.

[bararallu]

And I would not count any of them as civilian casualties, because I've already stated my position on this and you can't find a single instance where I have referred to a suicide bomber as anything other than a terrorist.

Again we are not quite communicating here. Hamas will use their civilians as cannon fodder just to garner public opinion. They will, just like Hizboalla and AQ place their equipment and personnel into population dense areas for the purposes of having human shields, so even when they loose they get to win some PR on Israel bombing "civilian areas and Mosques and Schools and Hospitals". They will use ambulances (already caught), they will use children, they will use everything at hand to fight their war.

I believe I am a student of history and I know very well how governments say one thing and do another. If the intention was to create a solution then attention would not be focused on a group that cannot create a solution but rather on the more moderate Fatah.

Fatah is not more moderate than Hamas. Their goals are exactly the same, they just don't have as many patrons as Hamas in the Muslim world, at this moment anyway since they are draining the UN and EU rather nicely. They are also embroiled in a civil war with Hamas. Abbas is a commited anti-Zionist and Holocaust denier.

Palestinians would not be all characterized by the actions of Hamas.

Why not? They dont march in the street to protest suicide bombings of our civilians, in fact they dont consider any of us as civilians. They hand out candy whether in the PA or in Hamasland when one of us is killed. They, per all polls, super majority support suicide bombing and continue to tow the most irredentist claims against us. They have virtually no liberals, the ones they have are hung in the street or driven out of the territory, not unlike what they do to the Arab Christians.

And real efforts would be made by Israel to show the kind of moral high ground that they claim to have rather than 10 wrongs make a right.

Right, the sort of moral highgound that Ghandi recommended for us. Thanks, but they can have their moral highgound (Since they lie to the MSM anyway and live victimization as a fundamental part of their culture). We'll take peace of mind.

Because I believe that many Israelis believe in such constructive solutions.

I cant say most of us do anymore. At this point the whole Peace Process is a cadaver on life support that the US has imposed on us. We suffer it with a small minority in office that placate your country, regardless of administration.

[andak01]

They will use ambulances (already caught), they will use children, they will use everything at hand to fight their war.

One would imagine with all this limitless effort they could be more successful at killing civilians than those who claim they don't.

The solution to this problem is the reduction of civilian casualties by all means possible. If Hamas can't net themselves any more than a bent stop sign, they'll stop after a while. If Israel focuses only on the roots of violence in Gaza while sparing civilians, support for Hamas will abate.

Fatah is not more moderate than Hamas. Their goals are exactly the same, they just don't have as many patrons as Hamas in the Muslim world, at this moment anyway since they are draining the UN and EU rather nicely. They are also embroiled in a civil war with Hamas. Abbas is a commited anti-Zionist and Holocaust denier.

Then why is Israel invading Gaza instead of them? You say there is no difference, but in fact it isn't them sending missiles into Israel.


Right, the sort of moral highgound that Ghandi recommended for us.

Ghandi, it should be noted, was highly critical of Israel. He'd be placed in the same doghouse with Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu if he was alive today.

I cant say most of us do anymore. At this point the whole Peace Process is a cadaver on life support that the US has imposed on us. We suffer it with a small minority in office that placate your country, regardless of administration.

If my country was demanding to be placated, we'd actually make actions against Israel after our repeated demands for moderation have gone unheaded. The US isn't "imposing" anything on Israel. You could make a glassed over parking lot of Gaza and Bush would come out the next day saying they all had it coming.

[bararallu]

One would imagine with all this limitless effort they could be more successful at killing civilians than those who claim they don't.

Whose limitless effort? Hamas'? They havent even started yet. Watch when the troops hit the ground. Then you will see attrocities. And I assure you 99.999% of them will not be caused by Israel.

The solution to this problem is the reduction of civilian casualties by all means possible. If Hamas can't net themselves any more than a bent stop sign, they'll stop after a while.

Fact is they can. You see every corner has a Al Jazira or BBC corespondent with just the right angles for their cameras.


If Israel focuses only on the roots of violence in Gaza while sparing civilians, support for Hamas will abate.

Wrong. Nothing Israel does is satisfactory. Not leaving them fully functioning farms that they turned into suicide bomb training central nor the Hudna, which they continued their agitation and re-arming via Iran.

Then why is Israel invading Gaza instead of them? You say there is no difference, but in fact it isn't them sending missiles into Israel.

Because why shouldn't the other uncompromising irredentists watch their enemies fight it out? This is a win win for the PLO.


Ghandi, it should be noted, was highly critical of Israel. He'd be placed in the same doghouse with Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu if he was alive today.

Your suggestion is tantamount to his tough. Drop your guard and die when the enemies use everything they have against you.

If my country was demanding to be placated, we'd actually make actions against Israel after our repeated demands for moderation have gone unheaded.

Your country has made many demands and the UN is used as the tough cop. This way most US public opinion, which sides with Israel, doesnt get the wrong idea....

The US isn't "imposing" anything on Israel. You could make a glassed over parking lot of Gaza and Bush would come out the next day saying they all had it coming.


Thats not true. US has made Israel an aircraft carrier, and we seem to be following orders, mostly to take shots- like shots from Saddam, shots from Egypt, shots from Iran and Syria. If your state took that many shots the whole ME would be a glass parking lot.

[andak01]

Whose limitless effort? Hamas'? They havent even started yet. Watch when the troops hit the ground. Then you will see attrocities. And I assure you 99.999% of them will not be caused by Israel.

And you can be sure that, if this happens, I will condemn every such attrocity. And you can be just as sure that, as I do that, I will still be called a Hamas sympathizer here because that's the only pigeonhole most of the posters here have got for me.

Your country has made many demands and the UN is used as the tough cop. This way most US public opinion, which sides with Israel, doesnt get the wrong idea....

What planet are you on?

Thats not true. US has made Israel an aircraft carrier, and we seem to be following orders, mostly to take shots- like shots from Saddam, shots from Egypt, shots from Iran and Syria. If your state took that many shots the whole ME would be a glass parking lot.

Um, in case you forgot, Saddam was defeated and hung on OUR dime sacrificing American soldiers and a trillion in taxpayer's money.

[bararallu]

What planet are you on?

This is my opinion of it. It's a rational (non emotional analysis of 50 years of policy). The US doesnt have to threaten Israel, all it has to do, like Carter and Bush 1 have done is threaten less support, starting with the Security Council.

Um, in case you forgot, Saddam was defeated and hung on OUR dime sacrificing American soldiers and a trillion in taxpayer's money.

And this has something to do with....

[ygalg1]

So let me ask you. How much civilian blood needs to be spilled in order to quench your blood lust?ask hamas, who is responsible for their lives.

[redcake]

Andak, you do not care about Palestinian or innocent lives, you only care about finding a bone of contention with Israel, and depicting her defense as an act of aggression. Your posting history reflects that. I repeat. You could care less for innocent lives.

[andak01]

Andak, you do not care about Palestinian or innocent lives, you only care about finding a bone of contention with Israel, and depicting her defense as an act of aggression. Your posting history reflects that. I repeat. You could care less for innocent lives.

If that was my goal, which it is not, I would protest every time the IDF enters Gaza. I don't and I haven't and I'm not about to. I've made it clear that I support Israel's right to defend themselves, to retaliate against attacks and some level of collateral damage. Whether you want to pretend I don't care about innocent lives is your own business. This game of discrediting me by putting words in my mouth is tiresome. I've specifically said that I do care about innocent Israeli and Jewish lives. I've never said otherwise.

[Steven]

If that was my goal, which it is not, I would protest every time the IDF enters Gaza. I don't and I haven't and I'm not about to. I've made it clear that I support Israel's right to defend themselves, to retaliate against attacks and some level of collateral damage. Whether you want to pretend I don't care about innocent lives is your own business. This game of discrediting me by putting words in my mouth is tiresome. I've specifically said that I do care about innocent Israeli and Jewish lives. I've never said otherwise.

Please, your goal is quite obvious. You are much more concerned with your Muslim brothers than anyone in Israel. Israel can defend themselves as long as it is within your guidelines.

[andak01]

Please, your goal is quite obvious. You are much more concerned with your Muslim brothers than anyone in Israel. Israel can defend themselves as long as it is within your guidelines.

My guidelines say don't use terrorism to fight terrorism. From what I've seen, you only acknowledge that there can be terrorism if it's a Muslim doing it. A Mexican who slices off a policeman's head and places it in the road isn't worthy of comment. Killing babies, if a Muslim didn't do it isn't worthy of comment. And if those babies are Muslim babies killed by non-Muslims, it's time for you to high five.

[Steven]

My guidelines say don't use terrorism to fight terrorism. From what I've seen, you only acknowledge that there can be terrorism if it's a Muslim doing it. A Mexican who slices off a policeman's head and places it in the road isn't worthy of comment. Killing babies, if a Muslim didn't do it isn't worthy of comment. And if those babies are Muslim babies killed by non-Muslims, it's time for you to high five.


Isarel is not using terrorism. Muslims are across the world.

[andak01]

Isarel is not using terrorism. Muslims are across the world.

If, as suggested by a poster here, Israel was to deliberately begin targetting babies, it would be nothing but terrorism. I see you've saved all your bile for me and none for that comment.

[redcake]

If that was my goal, which it is not, I would protest every time the IDF enters Gaza. I don't and I haven't and I'm not about to. I've made it clear that I support Israel's right to defend themselves, to retaliate against attacks and some level of collateral damage. Whether you want to pretend I don't care about innocent lives is your own business. This game of discrediting me by putting words in my mouth is tiresome. I've specifically said that I do care about innocent Israeli and Jewish lives. I've never said otherwise.


You discredit yourself. You're talking about police departments, and blurring the lines between war and terrorism and it's absolutely clear why you do it.

What's not clear is why you said nothing about the death of children in Gaza until today, and why you say nothing about Muslim on Muslim crimes in Islamic forums.

[andak01]

You discredit yourself. You're talking about police departments, and blurring the lines between war and terrorism and it's absolutely clear why you do it.

What's not clear is why you said nothing about the death of children in Gaza until today, and why you say nothing about Muslim on Muslim crimes in Islamic forums.

Because I haven't been confronted with 57 civilian casualties in a weekend previously. That's double the number of Israelis killed by Qassams since 2001. Now previously, short of a couple of other IDF attacks, things haven't been this bad. Most times there is some evidence of restraint and I have no criticism. But this time, the combination of the number of civilian deaths and the posters here reveling in the bloodshed like so many barbarians disgusted me. I don't blame you personally for that, but you know what I'm talking about.

[redcake]

Actually I have no idea what you're blabbering about.

The Palestinians got Gaza, elected Hamas, found themselves living in an Islamic totalitarian hellhole where waging war against Jews took priority against working septic systems...AND YOU SAID NOTHING. Not a thing.

This blood is on your hands. You, and I do blame you personally, because as you parrot the leftist pro-Palestinian lies that are more about damning Israel, then actually helping Palestinians, you do more damage to fuel the situation then anything. Israel didn't escalate the situation. Read a newspaper.

There is no value of an equation where you turn it back on Israeli deaths. The number of Qassams is relevant to what, aside from your desperation to find moral equivalency.

[Yala]

I believe I am a student of history and I know very well how governments say one thing and do another. If the intention was to create a solution then attention would not be focused on a group that cannot create a solution but rather on the more moderate Fatah.

How can you call yourself a student of history and in the same paragraph call Fatah moderate? You are sounding more and more like George Bush every day.

Palestinians would not be all characterized by the actions of Hamas.

So 45% voted for the terrorist group, Hamas and 44% voted for the terrorist group, Fatah and 2% voted for the non-terrorist "Third Way." Why shouldn't they be characterized by their leaders? You always complain how the rest of the world has a problem with us (as in collectively, the USA) because of Bush.

And real efforts would be made by Israel to show the kind of moral high ground that they claim to have rather than 10 wrongs make a right. Because I believe that many Israelis believe in such constructive solutions.

I really don't care about what you think is the moral high ground. Israel has the moral ground compared to these pigs who store their rockets in Palestinian kindergartens and playgrounds and shell Israel kindergartens and playgrounds.

Besides you cannot compare Israel to the Hamas, Fatah or Arab world. They are not even on the same planet. These Arabs whom you repeatedly apologize for, have killed thousands of Islamists in one day. You are such a student of history so you should be familiar with recent Syrian history -HAMA massacres for example.

I am starting to see where Newsguy is going with his repeatedly asking you where you condemned Hamas for their rocket attacks.

[Yala]

Because I haven't been confronted with 57 civilian casualties in a weekend previously. That's double the number of Israelis killed by Qassams since 2001. Now previously, short of a couple of other IDF attacks, things haven't been this bad. Most times there is some evidence of restraint and I have no criticism. But this time, the combination of the number of civilian deaths and

SO WHAT? Put your calculator away.

It doesn't matter that they didn't kill millions of Israelis in the 8 years they have been rocketing Israeli towns. It matters that they terrorized a whole town for 8 years with the intent to kill. Is it the Israelis' fault the Palestinians don't have brains to build proper weapons? They are getting plenty of money from Iran and the Arab world to do so.

the posters here reveling in the bloodshed like so many barbarians disgusted me.

Show me these posts. You have a flare for the dramatic. Have you considered a career in the arts?

[Mosche]

[QUOTE]Because I haven't been confronted with 57 civilian casualties in a weekend previously. That's double the number of Israelis killed by Qassams since 2001.

Does this matter? Not to me and, I dare say, to most of the other posters on this forum. If you want a numbers game--a pointless game--then I will say that Israel has only been fighting for three days. Based on the number of days that Israel has been bombarded by rockets, she still has 8 years left: A DAY FOR A DAY! Hows that for fair?

Most times there is some evidence of restraint and I have no criticism. But this time, the combination of the number of civilian deaths and the posters here reveling in the bloodshed like so many barbarians disgusted me.

You admit here that, in the past, Israel has used "restraint". What has it gotten her in return?

Daily showers of rockets! No peace. No cooperation. Nothing, except for showers of rockets!

Now Israel fights back, and people have the gall to contend that she is using "disproportionate force". So what?

For what it's worth, I do not revel in bloodshed. Unfortunately, there is a time when bloodshed is inevitable. You should point the finger--as should the rest of the world--at Hamas. Hamas leaders hide behind civilians, and then claim to be shocked that there are civilian casualties. If they really cared about civilians, Hamas would remove Palestinian civilians from harms way. That's what civilized nations do when their people are under fire. You used the word "barbarians". If you ask me, people who are barbarians are the ones who coward behind their own children.

[andak01]

Actually I have no idea what you're blabbering about.

The Palestinians got Gaza, elected Hamas, found themselves living in an Islamic totalitarian hellhole where waging war against Jews took priority against working septic systems...AND YOU SAID NOTHING. Not a thing.

That's right, because I had nothing to say. I didn't celebrate their election or condemn sanctions against them or root for the protestors who tried to break through the border. Through all the many threads started about Hamas, I haven't defended their actions or their goals in any way. I condemn their anti-semitic propaganda in no uncertain terms. Since they are indefensible, I don't go to any lengths to defend them. My main agenda is defense against unfair attacks and many statements criticising Hamas are fair. Saying they bombed a bus in Afghanistan is unfair and untrue.

This blood is on your hands. You, and I do blame you personally, because as you parrot the leftist pro-Palestinian lies that are more about damning Israel, then actually helping Palestinians, you do more damage to fuel the situation then anything. Israel didn't escalate the situation. Read a newspaper.

Good for you. You shot Kennedy!!! Please. Get a life.

There is no value of an equation where you turn it back on Israeli deaths. The number of Qassams is relevant to what, aside from your desperation to find moral equivalency.

I don't have moral equivalency. That would be saying that IDF actions are equal to Hamas actions. That isn't true since every Israeli life is dear and Hamas' terrorists lives have no value at all to me. I've said as much many times. My sentiments are as simple as I've stated them and they in no way relate to parroting anybody. I assume Gazans don't value their terrorists' lives at zero as I do.

[Mosche]

Total hijack here, but I do have to give Andak props: Dude, you have bigger kahunas than anyone I've ever met!;)

I disagree with most of what you post, but at least I know where your opinions/allegiances lie--wish that I could say that of most political leaders.

[redcake]

Saying they bombed a bus in Afghanistan is unfair and untrue.

Since you're responding to me, can you please link to what this is in reference to? In the meantime, Hamas are a genocidal army promoting oppression against their own people... so yes your silence makes you suspect.



That would be saying that IDF actions are equal to Hamas actions.

You're a failed con. It's been you who has labeled the IDF actions as terrorism, unsing interchangeable terminology.

[andak01]

Total hijack here, but I do have to give Andak props: Dude, you have bigger kahunas than anyone I've ever met!;)

I disagree with most of what you post, but at least I know where your opinions/allegiances lie--wish that I could say that of most political leaders.

Let's get this clear. My allegience doesn't lie with Hamas. There is no future there. And God Bless the IDF soldier that kills a terrorist before he can kill an innocent Israeli. Their [terrorist] lives are absolutely meaningless to me.

PS, the word is cajones. Spanish for drawer pulls.

Note that I have to restate in brackets the object of the previous sentence, so that the posters around here won't take that out of context and pretend that I said exactly the opposite of what I did. Of course that won't stop them from calling me a liar. But whether you agree with me or not, you will be best served to read what I say at face value. I hope the IDF does what they say they are doing and efficiently removes the threat of future rocket attacks. If they do something that instead leads to more future attacks, I'll be critical as I would be if my own country mishandled a security situation. Being critical of the actions of one side doesn't equate to support for the other side. For example, I seriously doubt that the Kahan commission was pro PLO for recommending Sharon's removal as defense secretary. But God forbid if they were to have posted that criticism here.

[Mosche]

Let's get this clear. My allegience doesn't lie with Hamas. There is no future there. And God Bless the IDF soldier that kills a terrorist before he can kill an innocent Israeli. Their [terrorist] lives are absolutely meaningless to me.

PS, the word is cajones. Spanish for drawer pulls.

Note that I have to restate in brackets the object of the previous sentence, so that the posters around here won't take that out of context and pretend that I said exactly the opposite of what I did. Of course that won't stop them from calling me a liar. But whether you agree with me or not, you will be best served to read what I say at face value. I hope the IDF does what they say they are doing and efficiently removes the threat of future rocket attacks. If they do something that instead leads to more future attacks, I'll be critical as I would be if my own country mishandled a security situation. Being critical of the actions of one side doesn't equate to support for the other side. For example, I seriously doubt that the Kahan commission was pro PLO for recommending Sharon's removal as defense secretary. But God forbid if they were to have posted that criticism here.

Andak,

Dude I was paying you a compliment! Why do you get so defensive? I do admire your willingness to stay steadfast to your opinions--even though I, and others on this thread may disagree with them. Hence, my CAJONES envy!:unsure:

You stated above that people should read what you write "at face value", that, my friend, is a two way street!

[andak01]

Andak,

Dude I was paying you a compliment!

You stated above that people should read what you write "at face value", that, my friend, is a two way street!

Mozel tov. I'll try to keep that in mind.

[GratefulFred]

I think all of you guys have hijacked my thread (see my first post - it should be self-explanitory). "This is "The Looney Bin" and any answer, no matter your side weather you are pro-israel or just stupid, must be in the form of a song parody.

[pizza4theidf]

Wow, that's a really good song. Maybe I should start singing it at work.

[pizza4theidf]

I have some better ones though:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uH9-ceuIElo

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wJsd52y55ug

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=abgmtt2tPqw

Watch the videos carefully and listen to the lyrics ;)

Way to go IDF!

:cool:

[serdar]

hey is that Chinese flag?

[pizza4theidf]

hey is that Chinese flag?

Yes it is. Yesterday, China decided to change its flag to red, black, white and green. It was on the news, didn't you hear? Of course, that might produce some, erm, little problems, especially for copyright purposes and the like, but I'm sure they can be ironed out in due course.

[Mosche]

Yes it is. Yesterday, China decided to change its flag to red, black, white and green. It was on the news, didn't you hear? Of course, that might produce some, erm, little problems, especially for copyright purposes and the like, but I'm sure they can be ironed out in due course.

I thought you were the "master of sarcasm"!