The Battle for Gaza has begun!

[takeo]

Israel never targets civilians - what are you talking about? :confused:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/gaza-civilians-endangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108

[pizza4theidf]

Amnesty International, what do they know? All they do is write letters to prisoners and that ... I'd rather believe someone who's actually involved, I'm afraid, like Mark Regev.

[takeo]

Don't pretend to be reasonable now, Takeo, stick with the endless caterwauling about etnic [sic] cleansing, genocide and such. Everything that's not shattered Jewish bodies is that, according to you. Your two-state solution involves Hamas, the PLO and the Arab Israelis. No Jews allowed. Perhaps they should move back to peaceful philosemitic Russia or Iran.

Lather rinse repeat.

My two-state solution involves a basically Jewish (Israel) and a basically Palestinian (Palestine) state with the green line as border. This seems to be the position of your country as well. Your solution involved a pure Jewish state and Palestinians in refugee camps shattered around the world.

[takeo]

Only time will tell, Arafat was a different kettle of fish and if memory recalls correctly his popularity had wained near to the time of his death.

I believe that this is Israel doing the dirty work for Fatah and as soon as this is over Fatah will move back into Gaza in force, then they will clean up the remanants of Hamas.

Time will tell and as I have already said it is only an opinion, the same way it was my opinion that Ariel Sharon removed the settlements so that Gaza was isolated and I do believe he knew that there would be inter fighting, as history has always shown them to do this, and that this day would come.

Problem is that the current war almost certainly will make Hamas stronger. Because of the 900+ civilian casualties, hate against Israel is stronger now than ever before. More people will support Hamas, while Abbas now has the image of a weak leader or even a traitor. I think already in a few months you'll see that balance of power in Palestine will shift towards Hamas.

[sunshine]

takeo you must be the biggest wit i have ever heard

pull back to the green line?

you think thats what the arabs want

in the 20s/30s/and 40s arabs were murdering jews

what bothered them then? the occupation of 1967 ?

they didnt want peace when they were offered more than what they 'request' now.

why do you only speak of palestinian refugees?

what about the million or so sephardic jews who were made refugees by the arabs? they have lost more money/property than the palestinians combined.

but you keep quiet like all good liberals.

why do you even call the arabs refugees. my grandmother had to flee czechoslovakia in 1939 just before hitler invaded. Her family lost everything. Does that make me a czech refugee? can i go back and claim my grandmothers house back ?

[takeo]

Takeo
After you filthy europeans stole everything from India, it has only taken us 60 years to stand on our feet. Russian GDP now 1.29 trillion and going down:rofl:. Indian GDP 1.12 trillion and going up. Just wait another 10 years and Russian GDP will be down the drain while India keeps rising. No wonder there were enough russian whores in the streets of India during the 90's. :rofl:.

Sure come back with more lies I just love crushing them...

Oh come on, colonisation is no excuse for the lack of progres in India.

In 1945 china was poorer and less developped than India (for example India already had a well developped railways system) and just look now...
Africans also always claim colonialism is the reason for their poverty. But in 1950 Zimbabwe and Kenya were richer than China or South-Korea...

And Russian whores are everywhere, including in Egypt (many of them), Sri Lanka and Thailand. Because they are sexy ad in high demand! Nothing to do with economy. Also, countries like India and Egypt are very conservative concerning sexuality. (despite the kamasutra! Times seem to have changed!).


Russian GNP is still higher than India's despite the fact that India has 8 times more people... please inform yourself before talking nonsense.

[takeo]

=Bheeshma




Sure I am all for Israel continuing the bombing till Hamas stops the missiles. Lets see which lasts longer the rockets or israeli ammo.

Well, already the whole world, including Israel's allies, are calling for a truce. Israel will not be able to withstand the pressure much longer. Just wait and see.







Yes and I was proud of it.:clap: The filthy christian missionaries have no place in India and do body cares about them. They distribute medicine and food only if you convert to christianity or else you can go and die somewhere. I am so glad people actually slaughtered them.

no comment here. You said enough. :eek:




I also heard about poor sikh students being expelled from classes because of turbans and Jews being attacked in france. What a shining example of democracy and modernity..Sheesh the froggies could a learn a few things from americans.

actually in France all public display of religions are forbidden in schools or among civil servants, especially muslim scarves. But on the street or at home everyone can do as he pleases. But nobody gets slaughtered in France because of his religion.

[CanDo]

if I was in charge of Israel, I would long ago have made peace with the Palestinians.

Delusions of imaginary skills and powers??? :rofl:


Just withdraw to the green line,

So.... you would give up land that rightfully belongs to Israel, just to appease your enemy's unjust demands for your territory?

The Muslim/Arab world has tried to destroy Israel, and murder all Jews in 1948, 1956 and 1967 and 1973, and through terrorism since; and has driven most Jews out of their countries. One would think that someone like you would get the hint that you (Jews) were not welcome in the Middle East. :stick:

If you were in charge of Israel, and you allowed Israel's borders to become indefensible, you would no longer be in charge, because you and the rest of Israel would all be dead.


If, nevertheless, Israel is still attacked, THEN I would undertake punitive actions on massive scale.

So...... despite the fact that the Muslim/Arab world has been trying to murder you, your family, your friends, your neighbors, for over 60 years, you would still afford your enemies the capability of mounting a devastating attack against your country, without any enforceable guarantees of safety and peace.

Iran has promised to destroy Israel, and has been funding terrorist military forces around Israel. You would allow these threats to materialize, just to prove what?! To prove that dead Jews can still fight back!?

Naive? Myopic? Or...... just NUTS!!!

What good are punitive actions for your dead children and your dead sisters and your dead brothers? Your solution is to mount military actions AFTER the fact (which, of course, Israel has been doing for 60 years just to survive the constant threats).


Or, even better, I would ask Egypt to do it for us.

Yeh, sure..... Weak, Jew-hating, "fearful of the Muslim Brotherhood" Egypt will do anything for Israel, won't they? :rofl:

What planet did you say you were from? Surely not down on Earth!

[scattergood]

According to Benny Morris 700000 have been forcefully ethnically cleansed.(besides not only muslims but christians as well)

No, that is not what Benny Morris said. Here are the actual details of his thoughts:



When a Haaretz interviewer called the 1948 Palestinian exodus "ethnic cleansing," Morris responded that "[t]here are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide�the annihilation of your people�I prefer ethnic cleansing."[2] Morris has also written in the Irish Times in February 21, 2008, that "There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and that "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies -- much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."[24] Morris has criticized Ben-Gurion for not carrying out such a plan, saying "In the end, he faltered... If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

Your own 'hero' basically debunks your oown position. Thanks for playing.

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: my blood is 75% Jewish by the way

Oh well, now that you've told me that, I'll be far less critical of you:rolleyes:

[sunshine]

brilliant

[bararallu]

Oh well, now that you've told me that, I'll be far less critical of you:rolleyes:

25% Ebola virus ;)

[Madeline]

Quote:
Originally Posted by takeo
According to Benny Morris 700000 have been forcefully ethnically cleansed.(besides not only muslims but christians as well)
No, that is not what Benny Morris said. Here are the actual details of his thoughts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia.com
When a Haaretz interviewer called the 1948 Palestinian exodus "ethnic cleansing," Morris responded that "[t]here are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing."[2] Morris has also written in the Irish Times in February 21, 2008, that "There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and that "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies -- much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."[24] Morris has criticized Ben-Gurion for not carrying out such a plan, saying "In the end, he faltered... If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
Your own 'hero' basically debunks your oown position. Thanks for playing.
__________________
Wonderful argument, Scattergood. The truth is a wonderful thing.
And takeo, please re-read your own arguments and see if you should not come to the same conclusion as I have. Your point of disliking me "I can't stand people who use the terms "anti-semitism" or "Holocaust" in any discussion concerning Israel" because of what I state is nothing but redirecting the attention from my statement of your being antisemitic...even thought you declare yourself being 75% Jewish.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

According to Benny Morris 700000 have been forcefully ethnically cleansed.(besides not only muslims but christians as well)

Have you actually read Benny Morris? Why don't you buy his book and actually READ it without taking out of context what he did or did not say. It's a 20 dollar book and I am sure it is available in French.

http://www.amazon.com/1948-History-First-Arab-Israeli-War/dp/0300126964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231776966&sr=1-1


I have actually read his work and it's really down-to-earth to earth kind of research. Wiki is really a very subjective source especially when it comes to summarizing academic research.

[CanDo]

You have to negociate with the elected government of Palestine.

And what if that "elected government of Palestine" ONLY wants you dead? What, then, is your alternative to negotiations?

In your simplistic, naive world, everything is in black or white, yes or no, with no shades of gray in between.

The rest of us have to live in the real world.


If you don't negociate than the war will go on.

While you are negotiating with the Palestinians do you still try to keep the Palestinians from murdering your children?


I think now there's been a UN-resolutions and the international community agrees that there should be a cease-fire.

The International Community, which is mostly antiSemitic, has been "willingly" kowtowing to the huge Muslim world for decades, against Israel and against Jews.

If the rest of the world determines that your family should be dead, does that make it right, and does that make it something that you would agree with?

In the real world, not your myopic, naive world, the International Community looks the other way while the Muslim world ethnically cleanses the Sudan of Christians, while North Korea starves it's people to death, while Rhodesia starves it's people, while Russia invades Georgia, while Hamas fires thousands of missiles into Israel over eight damn long years, all the while spending most of it's time (the UN) trying to figure out different ways to condemn the Jews of Israel.


If Israel continues its war, which kills much more civilians than Hamas-militants, international sanctions should follow. Because this war kills more civilians than combatants, the war itself is terrorist. The purpose is to terrorise Palestinians so that they stop supporting Hamas. The result will be exactly the inverse.

You are so obvious. You make things up to fit your antiSemitic goal of blaming the Jews of Israel, while at the same time, not casting any blame the terrorists (Hamas, etc.), for hiding among civilians, for deliberately storing weapons in civilians homes and mosques and schools, and for mass executions of Palestinians for which Hamas feels threatened, etc.

[Mil]

Posted by CanDo:

While you are negotiating with the Palestinians do you still try to keep the Palestinians from murdering your children?


This has been the MOST Negotiated and re-negotiated conflict in HUMAN history - certainly in Modern post WWII history. People made their carriers in Arab, Europe, Israel, Russia and America on this conflict.

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: my blood is 75% Jewish by the way

... if you tell me its 80% I may just change my mind... :D

[CanDo]

... if you tell me its 80% I may just change my mind... :D

takeo's blood is 75% Kapo.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24903344-15084,00.html

KHALED Meshaal, the political leader of Hamas whose decision on a mooted ceasefire is being eagerly awaited in the Gaza Strip, has been living in exile from hisnative Palestine his entire adult life.
Many Hamas followers in the war-battered Gaza Strip fear that his opposition to an unconditional ceasefire that would relieve them from the incessant pounding of the Israeli army reflects his detachment from realities on the ground. Born in 1956 near Ramallah on the West Bank, he moved with his family to Kuwait after the 1967 Six Day War. At Kuwait University, where he received a degree in physics, Meshaal was a student activist. In 1980, he established the Islamic League for Palestinian Students while working as a teacher.

When Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991, Meshaal moved to Jordan, where he was one of the founders of the Hamas movement.

He first became known publicly in 1997 when agents of Israel's Mossad attempted to assassinate him by spraying a poison into his ear on an Amman street.

King Hussein - who had signed a peace treaty with Israel three years earlier - demanded that Israel provide an antidote. A doctor was sent from Israel and the antidote she administered saved his life.

Meshaal was linked by Israel to funding of suicide attacks.

Since 1999, he has been living in Damascus with other members of Hamas's political bureau.

With the assassination in the Gaza Strip of Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin in 2004 in an Israeli airstrike, and the subsequent killing of Yassin's successor, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, Meshaal became the senior figure in Hamas while remaining in Damascus. Apart from his presence on Mossad's hit list, Meshaal chose to stay in Damascus because it permitted him to travel freely in the Arab world.

Hamas decision-making is believed to be formed from a consensus among leaders in Gaza and Damascus and it is not clear whether Meshaal's views outweigh those of Gaza.

Meshaal's publicly stated views range from statesmanlike to rabid. When he met former US president Jimmy Carter last year, he said Hamas would accept the creation of a Palestinian state confined to the West Bank and Gaza. Elsewhere, he said: "It is true that in reality there will be an entity or state called Israel on the rest of Palestinian land but I won't deal with it in terms of recognising it."

He told the BBC that a long-term truce with Israel was possible. However, he has also said: "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."

[Mediocrates]

Maybe this column would get a better reception if it were titled, “No Endgame for Israel�. Because the quantity of commentary claiming that Israel cannot possibly achieve any kind of successful outcome in Gaza is already approaching pre-surge levels of Iraq defeatism.

The argument that Israel’s assault on Gaza is futile has four main parts. First, say the critics, Israel cannot defeat Hamas by restricting its attacks to the relatively safe distance of air strikes and a limited land incursion. Down that road lies a reprise of the failed 2006 war with Hezbollah.

Next, they say, the human cost of taking physical control of Gaza will be too high in terms of Israeli soldiers and Palestinian civilians. Down that road lie memories of the 1982 siege of Beirut. Third, we are told that the only method by which Israel can prevent Hamas from regaining power is by resorting to a full-scale occupation. Down that road lies endless condemnation and, inevitably, another excruciating intifada.

Finally, we hear that by invading Gaza, Israel has further weakened Palestinian moderates and mid-wifed into existence yet another generation of jihadists. Down that road lies the end of the two-state solution and, demography being what it is, the end of the Jewish state itself.

On this point, it would be interesting to know how a two-state solution is supposed to come about by allowing Hamas to rule half of a presumptive Palestinian state. Are we now to endorse a three-state solution of Israel, Hamastan and Fatahland?

Then there is the matter of the war itself. Israel has already demonstrated that it has learnt the principal lessons from the war with Hezbollah. It did not wait too long to begin the ground campaign. It resisted the lure of a premature ceasefire, engineered by others. It did not promise ambitious goals at the war’s outset, only to walk away from them.

On the contrary, the stated goal of a “quiet� border with Gaza has the dual advantage of suggesting a degree of restraint while allowing Jerusalem to preserve its options as the battle unfolds. “Quiet� does not require the destruction of Hamas. But neither does it exclude it.

In other words, instead of being forced publicly to ratchet its aims downward, as it did in Lebanon, Jerusalem can now ratchet them upward, putting Hamas off-balance and perhaps tempting it to cut its losses by accepting a ceasefire on terms acceptable to Israel. Doing so would not quite amount to a defeat for Hamas. But it would be an unambiguous humiliation for a group whose greatest danger lies in its pretension of invincibility.

It is for this reason that Hamas will likely fight on, in the hopes that Israel will flinch. Critics of military action point to this damned-if-Israel-does, damned-if-it-doesn’t scenario as evidence of the folly of the war.

Hamas has been able to arm itself with increasingly sophisticated rockets thanks to a vast network of tunnels running below its border with Egypt. Israel found it difficult to destroy that network prior to its withdrawal from Gaza and will not easily do so now. But by bisecting the Strip, as it has now done, it will have no trouble preventing these rockets from moving north to their usual staging ground, thereby achieving a critical war aim without giving Hamas easy opportunities to hit back.

Israel also has much to gain by avoiding a frontal assault on Gaza’s urban areas in favour of the snatch-and-grab operations that have effectively suppressed Hamas’ terrorist infrastructure in the West Bank. A long-term policy aimed squarely at killing or capturing Hamas leaders, destroying arms caches and rocket factories, and cutting off supply and escape routes will not by itself destroy the group. But it can drive it out of government and cripple its ability to function as a fighting force.

Israel will also have to practise a more consistent policy of deterrence than it has so far done. One option: For every single rocket that falls randomly on Israeli soil, an Israeli missile will hit a carefully selected target in Gaza. Focusing the minds of Hamas on this type of “proportionality� is just the endgame that Israel needs.

Edited excerpts. Bret Stephens is a Wall Street Journal columnist. Comments are welcome at otherviews@livemint.com
http://www.livemint.com/2009/01/12204747/An-endgame-for-Israel.html?h=B

[ItsMyJewty]

CanDo: takeo's blood is 75% Kapo.

:rofl:

[Mil]

Cappuccino?

[scattergood]

Posted by Takeo:

According to Benny Morris 700000 have been forcefully ethnically cleansed.(besides not only muslims but christians as well)

Have you actually read Benny Morris? Why don't you buy his book and actually READ it without taking out of context what he did or did not say. It's a 20 dollar book and I am sure it is available in French.

http://www.amazon.com/1948-History-First-Arab-Israeli-War/dp/0300126964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231776966&sr=1-1


I have actually read his work and it's really down-to-earth to earth kind of research. Wiki is really a very subjective source especially when it comes to summarizing academic research.

I have read his books and he is a good researcher and writer. However, your conclusion of his works directly opposes his own view of his own research. Whether it comes from Wikipedia, or the original links that Wikipedia references doesn't change the truth of the matter. He said what he said, which is undeniable, but problematic for you.

But, as history isn't really on your side, you of course want to change / rewrite / reinterpret it to meet your desired narrative.

[Yala]

I've read Morris and many of his interviews that he gave in recent years. He always mentions how anti-Israel elements adopt and distort his work.

He views Israeli Arabs as fifth columns and has also justified attacking Iran.

[KettleWhistle]

If I'm not mistaken, in a recent interview or paper, Morris specifically stated that had Israel expelled all Arabs out of here, the region would've long been peaceful.

[Bheeshma]

Oh come on, colonisation is no excuse for the lack of progres in India.

In 1945 china was poorer and less developped than India (for example India already had a well developped railways system) and just look now...
Africans also always claim colonialism is the reason for their poverty. But in 1950 Zimbabwe and Kenya were richer than China or South-Korea...

And Russian whores are everywhere, including in Egypt (many of them), Sri Lanka and Thailand. Because they are sexy ad in high demand! Nothing to do with economy. Also, countries like India and Egypt are very conservative concerning sexuality. (despite the kamasutra! Times seem to have changed!).


Russian GNP is still higher than India's despite the fact that India has 8 times more people... please inform yourself before talking nonsense.

Spoken like a true european thief and colonist. Yeah sure 60 years is enough to get out of 200 years of slavery and plain daylight robbery?? China choose a method of starving half their population to achieve economic growth and india choose a slower alternative. I would go wit the Indian one again.

LoL Kenya? Zimbabwae? Where are they now? Didn't they get the memo on chinese style democracy and progress?/:rofl:

Poor russian women did not have to resort to flesh trade because they are pretty but because of the economic strength of Soviet union. The morons had enough land and resources still managed to screw up badly. You know nothing of kamasutra so just shut up about it. It is not playboy :rofl:.

Russian economy is marginally higher and will probably remain so for a couple of years more. Then what? How long will they depend on oil and gas? Or will it return to exporting women again? How many countries are willing to invest in russia today?

Next time you type rubbish about russian or soviet economic strength read up a little.

[Bheeshma]

=Bheeshma

Well, already the whole world, including Israel's allies, are calling for a truce. Israel will not be able to withstand the pressure much longer. Just wait and see.
Yeah sure they are...US has just sent 3000 tonnes of ammo to israel. Lets see who else asks Israel to stop. No one in the arab world will be sad to see hamas being blown out of their bunkers.



no comment here. You said enough. :eek:
Your silence on the killing of romany's is very reassuring.



actually in France all public display of religions are forbidden in schools or among civil servants, especially muslim scarves. But on the street or at home everyone can do as he pleases. But nobody gets slaughtered in France because of his religion.
So the govt tell them what to wear and what not wear outside their homes. How reassuring. Just denying them education and growth opportunities is so much more humane.:rofl:

[Reffo]

This debate isn't about takeo. It's about Palestinians (and their friends) versus Israel (and their friends).The debate is very much about you and people like you Takeo. It is because of people like you that the general public is misinformed and the peace negotiations stall. It is because of people like you that misplaced pressure is placed on Israel to make more concessions while not enough pressure is placed on the Palestinian leaders to "bite the bullet" and relinquish unrealistic dreams like their so called "Right of Return" and to stop their refusal to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people. It is because of people like you why Palestinians mistakenly believe that time is on their side and it is because of people like you they too are emboldened to misrepresent history and be in denial!

You people blatantly deny historical facts which was (and still is by many Arabs) to "Drive the Jews into the sea". This was an intent that the Arabs clearly and openly boasted about till after the 1967 war. Although some of them toned it down since then, not all of them did. Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad still sing that old tune as does Iran (since the Ayatolahs gained power) and one is justified in thinking that many ordinary Arabs still dream of the day that they think that it will come about ...

And Takeo, it is clear that you too are aware of that intent as is shown from your debate with bararallu. Here it is again:

This is how you responded to Bararallu in your first entry of your post #31 Click Here:

Bararallu: "Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel"

Takeo: "Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable"

In other words, you exhibit awareness that the Arabs aimed a genocide against Israel ....

Yet when I have been pressing you to acknowledge the historical intent of the Arabs towards Israel, you have been stubbornly refusing to do so, WHY?!

[ItsMyJewty]

Reffo: Yet when I have been pressing you to acknowledge the historical intent of the Arabs towards Israel, you have been stubbornly refusing to do so, WHY?!

As you said, it's inconvenient.;)

[bararallu]

Yet when I have been pressing you to acknowledge the historical intent of the Arabs towards Israel, you have been stubbornly refusing to do so, WHY?!

Maybe b/c the politburo has not approved this message!! :cool:


His antennae are up and he is receiving instructions... stand by....:D

[CanDo]

The debate is very much about you and people like you Takeo. It is because of people like you that the general public is misinformed and the peace negotiations stall. It is because of people like you that misplaced pressure is placed on Israel to make more concessions while not enough pressure is placed on the Palestinian leaders to "bite the bullet" and relinquish unrealistic dreams like their so called "Right of Return" and to stop their refusal to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people. It is because of people like you why Palestinians mistakenly believe that time is on their side and it is because of people like you they too are emboldened to misrepresent history and be in denial!

...



Well put. :clap:

AntiSemites, like Takeo, are a dime a dozen, and so much alike. They spout the same, tired, boring old tripe, again and again. They either are not capable of understanding, or not willing to accept, the history of violence, hatred and religious intolerance of the Muslim/Arab world towards ALL non-Muslims, not just Jews........... but especially Jews.

Sadly, as you so well put, the Takeos of the world are part of the reason for the misery caused by the Muslim/Arab world.

[Yala]

Oh enough about Takeo already. We always let him come here and rile us up. He is probably laughing his ass off as we speak. Even he can't believe his own positions he contradicts himself so much. He is currently agreeing with the assessments of his nemesis Bush. Can't you see it is all bullshit?

[Mil]

Is it true what they say about black man?

[bararallu]

I think he would make an awesome turing test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test), he can be a commie Eliza. (http://www-ai.ijs.si/eliza-cgi-bin/eliza_script)

[pizza4theidf]

Well put. :clap:

AntiSemites, like Takeo, are a dime a dozen, and so much alike. They spout the same, tired, boring old tripe, again and again. They either are not capable of understanding, or not willing to accept, the history of violence, hatred and religious intolerance of the Muslim/Arab world towards ALL non-Muslims, not just Jews........... but especially Jews.

Sadly, as you so well put, the Takeos of the world are part of the reason for the misery caused by the Muslim/Arab world.

Yeah, leftist intellectuals, with all their ideals about "peace" rather than the honour of our people and the glory of struggle, are responsible for many of the world's problems tbh. It's partly what's held Israel back.

[CanDo]

Yeah, leftist intellectuals, with all their ideals about "peace" ...

The "peace" of these naive, leftist airheads would result in all Jews, and other non-Muslim minorities, dead. That still wouldn't result in peace, because the different Muslim gangs would continue the violence against each other, as they always have and they always will.

[pizza4theidf]

Indeed. The only way we'll ever get peace is through strength and the steadfast will of our people, not through capitulation.

[takeo]

CanDo



So.... you would give up land that rightfully belongs to Israel, just to appease your enemy's unjust demands for your territory?

It doesn't belong to Israel. Israel conquered it in 1967, but this has never belonged to Israel, no other country, including the US, recognised it as part of Israel, and most people living there aren't Israeli citizens and actually are very hostile to Israel. There are several UNSC-resolutions asking for withdrawel and stopping colonisation. If you insist that these stolen territories should be incorporated in Israel, than peace is impossible, and it means Israel would deserve war untill it changes its mind. Occupation is an act of war.






.


The Muslim/Arab world has tried to destroy Israel, and murder all Jews in 1948, 1956 and 1967 and 1973, and through terrorism since; and has driven most Jews out of their countries. One would think that someone like you would get the hint that you (Jews) were not welcome in the Middle East. :stick:

As a result of zionism, there was hostility against Jews in Arab countries. That's right. But they were not forced to move out, unlike many of not most Palestinians in Israel. Even today some Jews are remaining in Arab and muslim countries, in Iran and Syria there are active officially recognised synagogues.




If you were in charge of Israel, and you allowed Israel's borders to become indefensible, you would no longer be in charge, because you and the rest of Israel would all be dead.

Israel will not disappear because of peace, these are lies told by fascist people who want to destroy the Palestinians instead and create Eretz Israel. On the contrary a peaceful Israel in peace with its neighbours will prosper more than today and become the economic motor of the region. But peace can only be achieved if Israel gives up the occupied territories and recognises Palestine as a state. If not Palestinians won't have any reason to sign any peace-deal with Israel. That's also what American senior advisors believe.







So...... despite the fact that the Muslim/Arab world has been trying to murder you, your family, your friends, your neighbors, for over 60 years, you would still afford your enemies the capability of mounting a devastating attack against your country, without any enforceable guarantees of safety and peace.

What's the egg and what's the chicken? Both people want the same land, so there has to be signed a deal some day. Unless of course you consider genocide against all Palestinians a desirable and realistic option. I don't think the US, especially Obama, will go along. Even today the US didn't veto a UN-resolution calling for a cease-fire. Israel will be much safer with a real state as a neighbour instead of some anarchistic undefined entities.







Iran has promised to destroy Israel, and has been funding terrorist military forces around Israel. You would allow these threats to materialize, just to prove what?! To prove that dead Jews can still fight back!?

Obama wants to talk to Iran, Iran can become a US-ally just like Libia. On the condition they change their policy concerning Israel for example. If Israel makes peace with Palestinians, than Iran will also loose allies in the region.
But your policy of alienating all neighbours will is a very dangerous one. Sooner or later Israel will loose its military superiority.



What good are punitive actions for your dead children and your dead sisters and your dead brothers? Your solution is to mount military actions AFTER the fact (which, of course, Israel has been doing for 60 years just to survive the constant threats).

With the current policy and what you propose Israel will be under constant threat eternally, because it will be surrounded by ennemies. But if Israel makes peace with the Palestinians, this risk will be reduced considerably. Just like what happened with Egypt. Egypt may not be a big friend of Israel, but there's peace. Even today when over 900 Palestinians were slaughtered by Israel Egypt doesn't intervene to help or finance Hamas. It sticks to the peace-deal. If Israel doesn't want to sign a peace-deal with Palestinians, than rockets will continue to be launched on Israel eternally. The only way to stop is is to make peace. Unless of course, as I said, you are considering a "final solution" for the "Palestinian problem". (you know, that has been tried before by another country, I think you've heard about it)





Yeh, sure..... Weak, Jew-hating, "fearful of the Muslim Brotherhood" Egypt will do anything for Israel, won't they? :rofl:

They don't help their Arab brothers, eventough the Egyptian people are very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. So it means signing a peace-deal is really in the advantage of Israel and peace. But of course if Eretz Israel is worth more to you than peace, that's your own choice. In that case the rockets will continue to rain down eternally on Israel. It's your choice: occupation or peace. That's also how mainstream America seems to see it.(newsweek, the economist, New York times, etc.)










What planet did you say you were from? Surely not down on Earth!


i quoted American senior advisors who said exactly the same as I did. It seems your planet is far away, perhaps it's Mars, named after the God of war...

[takeo]

Bheeshma



Spoken like a true european thief and colonist.

Communists were the first and only Westerners to resist colonisation.



Yeah sure 60 years is enough to get out of 200 years of slavery and plain daylight robbery?? China choose a method of starving half their population to achieve economic growth and india choose a slower alternative. I would go wit the Indian one again.

The Indian alternative is less succesfull. India is still, and remains, a third world sh/thole. In China nor Russia millions of people sleep in the streets like rats like everywhere in India. And 'm sure most Chinese and Russians eat better and more than most Indians.





LoL Kenya? Zimbabwae? Where are they now? Didn't they get the memo on chinese style democracy and progress?/:rofl:

No





Poor russian women did not have to resort to flesh trade because they are pretty but because of the economic strength of Soviet union. The morons had enough land and resources still managed to screw up badly. You know nothing of kamasutra so just shut up about it. It is not playboy :rofl:.

At least Russian prostitutes are their own master, get good money and are proud. It's there own choice to make lots of $ as expensive call-girls in the emirates, India or Egypt, conservative countries where you don't see much women in the streets. I visited the "red light district" of Mumbai... REALLY, REALLY miserable... I pity them. About Kamasutra: in India women even don't take off their sari when bathing in the sea!













Russian economy is marginally higher

You call 20 times higher "marginally"?


and will probably remain so for a couple of years more. Then what? How long will they depend on oil and gas? Or will it return to exporting women again? How many countries are willing to invest in russia today?

I agree Russia's economy is too much dependent on oil and gas. And living standards are lower than during soviet times. Still no comparison possible with India... (everyone going to India gets sick and is shocked by the poverty)





Next time you type rubbish about russian or soviet economic strength read up a little.


I provided official UN-statistics, you didn't back up your claims.

[takeo]

Bheeshma




Your silence on the killing of romany's is very reassuring.

So you compare the execution of some tyrant (who by the way was also responsible for a lot of Jewish blood flowing) to the slaughtering of many innocent people because they are christians?




So the govt tell them what to wear and what not wear outside their homes. How reassuring. Just denying them education and growth opportunities is so much more humane.:rofl:

In France everyone gets education and growth opportunities. How very different from India, where you can get killed if you happen to belong to the wrong religion, where you get killed if you belong to the wrong caste, where a very large minority of the population (especially girls) never goes to school.

[Mil]

In France everyone gets education and growth opportunities.

So all those recent race riots in the slums, or rather projects, was nothing?

[Madeline]

Well put. :clap:

AntiSemites, like Takeo, are a dime a dozen, and so much alike. They spout the same, tired, boring old tripe, again and again. They either are not capable of understanding, or not willing to accept, the history of violence, hatred and religious intolerance of the Muslim/Arab world towards ALL non-Muslims, not just Jews........... but especially Jews.

Sadly, as you so well put, the Takeos of the world are part of the reason for the misery caused by the Muslim/Arab world.

:stick:Don't call Takeo an antisemite, he don't like that.;)

[takeo]

Reffo


The debate is very much about you and people like you Takeo. It is because of people like you that the general public is misinformed and the peace negotiations stall.

That's absolutely nonsense. The negociations stall because of the reasons summarised by this american senior advisor in Newsweek and others such as Friedman.




It is because of people like you that misplaced pressure is placed on Israel to make more concessions while not enough pressure is placed on the Palestinian leaders to "bite the bullet" and relinquish unrealistic dreams like their so called "Right of Return" and to stop their refusal to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people.

Israel gets away with a lot more than other countries. Saddam invaded Kouweit and only one year later the whole world forced him to withdraw from Kouweit. And Fatah recognised Israel. Problem is that many Israeli, including you yourself, don't recoginse the right of the Palestinians to have their own state.






It is because of people like you why Palestinians mistakenly believe that time is on their side and it is because of people like you they too are emboldened to misrepresent history and be in denial!

Nonsense, they don't care about me. They see with their own eyes that Israel is still building new settlements in their backyards and that they still don't have an own state.
The Israeli on the other hand only care about US opinion. And i think this is the key to any solution. The US has to force Israel into leaving the occupied territories in return for peace. Because this is in US' interests as well, as pointed out by the article I quoted. I think there is growing opinion in the US that the US should not unilaterally support Israel. It should put pressure on Palestinians AND on Israel.






You people blatantly deny historical facts which was (and still is by many Arabs) to "Drive the Jews into the sea".

This never happened, however 700000 Palestinians have been driven from their country. THAT's a fact.


This was an intent that the Arabs clearly and openly boasted about till after the 1967 war.

As I said it never happened. People talk a lot of nonsense when they're angry. What really matters is what really happened.




Although some of them toned it down since then, not all of them did. Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad still sing that old tune as does Iran (since the Ayatolahs gained power) and one is justified in thinking that many ordinary Arabs still dream of the day that they think that it will come about ...

If Israel wants Palestinians to change their opinion, it should stop killing them and offering them their rights.




This is how you responded to Bararallu in your first entry of your post #31 Click Here:

Bararallu: "Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel"

Takeo: "Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable"

In other words, you exhibit awareness that the Arabs aimed a genocide against Israel ....

Once again, I said "that's what you're referring to", I didn't say "that's what I really believe".




Yet when I have been pressing you to acknowledge the historical intent of the Arabs towards Israel, you have been stubbornly refusing to do so, [B]WHY?!

some Arabs surely want to get rid of Israel alltogether. But most are realistic and see the necessity of a two-state-solution.
And noone ever said "genocide", that's your interpretation. However whenever I suddenly use that word, I get criticised? Many people on this forum wants to get rid of the Palestinians alltogether.

[takeo]

In France everyone gets education and growth opportunities.

So all those recent race riots in the slums, or rather projects, was nothing?

I didn't say that everyone gets the SAME education or growth opportunities. But that's also the case in the US, even worse.
At least in France it doesn't cost a fortune to get a good education.

Anyway compared to India the US, France, Belgium even Belarus or Cuba are paradise.

Besides there are no real slums in France. We have "HLM's" big buildings where lots of social cases live.
But nothing like the bad areas of US cities, let alone India.

If you want to see real slums, go to Mumbay or Nairobi, you will start to cry like a child to see humans living like animals.

[Mil]

By Takeo:


I didn't say that everyone gets the SAME education or growth opportunities. But that's also the case in the US, even worse.

No - it's worse in France. Even worse in Russia.

At least in France it doesn't cost a fortune to get a good education.

That's why US paid college education is better then in other country - including France and Russia. And in fact a lot more opportunities that pay a lot better
after you do get out of college.

Anyway compared to India the US, France, Belgium even Belarus or Cuba are paradise.

That's why India's IT industry is hell of a lot more advanced then that of France.


Besides there are no real slums in France. We have "HLM's" big buildings where lots of social cases live.

? You mean projects....


But nothing like the bad areas of US cities, let alone India.

You mean your projects are better then our projects? Okay....

If you want to see real slums, go to Mumbay or Nairobi, you will start to cry like a child to see humans living like animals.

I have been to Jamaica... but did you really cry?

[takeo]

Well put. :clap:

AntiSemites, like Takeo, are a dime a dozen, and so much alike. They spout the same, tired, boring old tripe, again and again. They either are not capable of understanding, or not willing to accept, the history of violence, hatred and religious intolerance of the Muslim/Arab world towards ALL non-Muslims, not just Jews........... but especially Jews.

Sadly, as you so well put, the Takeos of the world are part of the reason for the misery caused by the Muslim/Arab world.

What i say on this forum is exactly the same as what I read in mainstream western media, including Le Monde diplomatique (lots of Jewish journalists work for Le Monde), New York Times, the economist, Newsweek, etc.
My views are MAINSTREAM. Your views on the contrary belong to the ultra-right-wing fringes, this forum is like a pro-Israel equivalent of Stormfront.
Let's also see what Obama will do. I'm quite hopefull.
You people talk about violence, hatred and religious intolerance of the Arabs, but what i read on this forum is nothing but calls for violence, and lots of hatred and religious intolerance (christian and muslim filth, kill them! )

[Madeline]

What i say on this forum is exactly the same as what I read in mainstream western media, including Le Monde diplomatique (lots of Jewish journalists work for Le Monde), New York Times, the economist, Newsweek, etc.
My views are MAINSTREAM. Your views on the contrary belong to the ultra-right-wing fringes, this forum is like a pro-Israel equivalent of Stormfront.
Let's also see what Obama will do. I'm quite hopefull.
You people talk about violence, hatred and religious intolerance of the Arabs, but what i read on this forum is nothing but calls for violence, and lots of hatred and religious intolerance (christian and muslim filth, kill them! )
Oh yes, here we have it. MSM and NYT in one post. Yeehaw.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

this forum is like a pro-Israel equivalent of Stormfront.

What? What is that supposed to mean? Dude - I am loosing respect in you....

[takeo]

Mil



No - it's worse in France. Even worse in Russia.

You don't know nothing about France. Living standard in France is higher than in the US, difference between rich and poor much smaller. (see the statistics I provided above)



That's why US paid college education is better then in other country - including France and Russia. And in fact a lot more opportunities that pay a lot better
after you do get out of college.

It's not better if you look at the total picture. You have a few top universities but in general education of the average american or much worse than education of the average French. "Joe sixpack" is basically less educated than "Jean-Paul De la Ruelle". I you gain a bit more but you have less vacation, less social protection and need to pay an arm and a leg for education and healthcare. In Europe we don't need to worry about that. We can spend our money differently. Accomodation on the other hand is more expensive than in the US.




That's why India's IT industry is hell of a lot more advanced then that of France.

Oh come on man, Indian IT industry is employing less than 1% of the population. 60 % lives on the countryside without electricity, healthcare or any modern commodity. And even in the city many more people live in slums than in nice houses. Just look at the facts. French GNP per capita is 40 times the GNP per capita of India! You are so very brainwatched. You really need to see more of the world, and see the reality, not the propaganda.



I have been to Jamaica... but did you really cry?

Almost, it's really very bad, people live like animals. I've never been to Jamaica, but if you look at UNDP world listing, Jamaica is not a really poor country compared to India or Kenya. But you don't have to go that far, visit Haiti for example, or Guatemala.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

You don't know nothing about France.

You don't know nothing about USA.

Living standard in France is higher than in the US, difference between rich and poor much smaller. (see the statistics I provided above)

Yeah - of course. There are a lot more rich people in America then in France.

It's not better if you look at the total picture.

Total?

You have a few top universities but in general education of the average american or much worse than education of the average French.

Education of average American is better then of the average French.

"Joe sixpack" is basically less educated than "Jean-Paul De la Ruelle".

Of course - when one quotes Wiki vs. actually reading the source... it says something.



I you gain a bit more but you have less vacation, less social protection and need to pay an arm and a leg for education and healthcare. In Europe we don't need to worry about that. We can spend our money differently.

Of course. You got socialism. People don't have as much money as Americans... which at the end produces less rich people, large credit card debts, less entrepreneurship, and various side affects like 35 hour weeks. That's why most of the high-tech, technological and other progress took place in USA... and that's why everyone wants to come here and not anywhere else.




Oh come on man, Indian IT industry is employing less than 1% of the population.

And how many are involved in France IT?

60 % lives on the countryside without electricity, healthcare or any modern commodity.

India is a third world country. As is Russia.

And even in the city many more people live in slums than in nice houses.

India is a third world, developing and over-populated country. How do think majority live in China on $2/day?

Just look at the facts. French GNP per capita is 40 times the GNP per capita of India!

Look at the economic growth... bigger then France.

You are so very brainwatched. You really need to see more of the world, and see the reality, not the propaganda.


? I know hell of a lot more Indians then you do. I know a lot more Chinese, and I know hell of a lot more Russians.

[Madeline]

I didn't say that everyone gets the SAME education or growth opportunity. But that's also the case in the US, even worse.
At least in France it doesn't cost a fortune to get a good education.

Anyway compared to India the US, France, Belgium even Belarus or Cuba are paradise.

Besides there are no real slums in France. We have "HLM's" big buildings where lots of social cases live.
But nothing like the bad areas of US cities, let alone India.

If you want to see real slums, go to Mumbay or Nairobi, you will start to cry like a child to see humans living like animals.
You don't like the U.S., and you don't care much for Jews....so, just wondering what you seek to accomplish here? Are you trying to convert us? Educate us?

[Y. Shulamith]

By Takeo:


I didn't say that everyone gets the SAME education or growth opportunities. But that's also the case in the US, even worse.

No - it's worse in France. Even worse in Russia.

At least in France it doesn't cost a fortune to get a good education.

That's why US paid college education is better then in other country - including France and Russia. And in fact a lot more opportunities that pay a lot better
after you do get out of college.

Anyway compared to India the US, France, Belgium even Belarus or Cuba are paradise.

That's why India's IT industry is hell of a lot more advanced then that of France.


Besides there are no real slums in France. We have "HLM's" big buildings where lots of social cases live.

? You mean projects....


But nothing like the bad areas of US cities, let alone India.

You mean your projects are better then our projects? Okay....

If you want to see real slums, go to Mumbay or Nairobi, you will start to cry like a child to see humans living like animals.

I have been to Jamaica... but did you really cry?

I've been to Jamaica 3 times. You can be poor in Jamaica and still survive in a tropical paradise. You can get enough food and live in the sun and beauty and flowers. Jamaica has a lower suicide rate than the USA or Canada.

[Mil]

Jamaica has a lower suicide rate than the USA or Canada.

After a few Bob Marleys all troubles seem to.... disappear :) I am not big fan of the Caribbean especially after we spent two beautiful honeymoon weeks at a beautiful little town of Palm Cove, in between Cairns and Port Douglas, in Queensland, Australia.

[Reffo]

Problem is that many Israeli, including you yourself, don't recoginse the right of the Palestinians to have their own state.Many Israelis and I expect the Palestinians to:

Formally disavow their demand for "The Right of Return"
Formally recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people
Accept appropriate interim arrangements that would safeguard Israel's security

Before Israel should be willing to give up a strategic asset such as land for a Palestinian state, even though this would make Israel much more vulnerable.

People like you on the other hand expect Israel to just give up land and place themselves into a much riskier position in return for NOTHING!


Nonsense, they don't care about me.No, they don't care about you individually, neither do I! But they do count on people like you (collectively) to voice your propaganda and to try and turn public opinion against Israel..


You people blatantly deny historical facts which was (and still is by many Arabs) to "Drive the Jews into the sea".

This never happened,No, it hasn't because Israel defended itself effectively so far. However, if people like you would ever get the chance to set the agenda, the danger of it happening would increase significantly!


however 700000 Palestinians have been driven from their country. THAT's a factAnd about the same number of Jews were driven from Arab lands. THAT's a fact!


People talk a lot of nonsense when they're angry. What really matters is what really happened.It wasn't just talk, they had serious intent. How do I know? Because history shows talk like that, especially in the Middle East (but elsewhere too) has always been translated into reality whenever the talkers were given the opporunity to make it reality ..


If Israel wants Palestinians to change their opinion, it should stop killing them and offering them their rights.I beg to differ! Israel has to demonstrate to the Palestinians that killing Israelis will get them nothing but misery. Israel also needs to demonstrate to the Palestinians that they [the Palestinians] will never achieve 100% of their dreams. Israel needs to show them that their best chance for a state of their own is to compromise.


This is how you responded to Bararallu in your first entry of your post #31 Click Here:

Bararallu: "Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel"

Takeo: "Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable"

In other words, you exhibit awareness that the Arabs aimed a genocide against Israel ....

Once again, I said "that's what you're referring to", I didn't say "that's what I really believe".But you clearly show that you are aware that "what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel" would have been genocide! How do you explain that?


some Arabs surely want to get rid of Israel alltogether. But most are realistic and see the necessity of a two-state-solution.
And noone ever said "genocide", that's your interpretation. However whenever I suddenly use that word, I get criticised? Many people on this forum wants to get rid of the Palestinians alltogether.I agree that many do but I am also aware that some don't. The real question is: Which one of them will be the ones to set the Arab agenda? I for one would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the side that would be able to convince the Palestinian Arab people to (I'll say it again):

Formally disavow their demand for "The Right of Return"
Formally recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people
Accept appropriate interim arrangements that would safeguard Israel's security

[Bheeshma]

Bheeshma




Communists were the first and only Westerners to resist colonisation.

Yeah sure...I guess all the baltic republics that were swallowed by the red army were integration not colonization. Socialist france had how many colonies in Africa and west asia??? :rofl:




The Indian alternative is less succesfull. India is still, and remains, a third world sh/thole. In China nor Russia millions of people sleep in the streets like rats like everywhere in India. And 'm sure most Chinese and Russians eat better and more than most Indians.


LoL yeah sure. Thats why India had a middle class thats more than 400 million and swelling. LoL Soviets towards the end were begging India for food grains before the collapse in 91.Russian economy is a deep sh/t hole and will continue to remain the same. China has successfully starved half their population. I agree very successful by your standards.

Indeed russia has no poverty..
http://seansrussiablog.org/2008/06/14/livin-on-the-russian-poverty-line/
:rofl:






At least Russian prostitutes are their own master, get good money and are proud. It's there own choice to make lots of $ as expensive call-girls in the emirates, India or Egypt, conservative countries where you don't see much women in the streets. I visited the "red light district" of Mumbai... REALLY, REALLY miserable... I pity them. About Kamasutra: in India women even don't take off their sari when bathing in the sea!


Yeah sure...try again idiot. The russian mafia that are smuggling these poor girls into goa and other places around the world certainly didn't get your memo about being their own masters. I would be laughing if it wasn't such a tragedy. Moron only a few women work as expensive call girls the rest are forced and sold like cattle. Come back to mother earth.

No body takes bath in a sea you moron, thats just ceremonial. Like muslims supposedly cleaning themselves with one fistful of water before prayers :rofl:. Kamasutra is a very non erotic book. Its not playboy meant for wankers like you.






You call 20 times higher "marginally"?

Yawn ...russian economy 1.28 trillion and going down. Indian economy 1.12 trillion and going up. Give it 2-3 years India will be ahead. Yes a GNP it will lag due to a large population but heck I would rather be an Indian than a commie any day.




I agree Russia's economy is too much dependent on oil and gas. And living standards are lower than during soviet times. Still no comparison possible with India... (everyone going to India gets sick and is shocked by the poverty)
Everyone going to russia gets enamored by the amount of flesh trade..:rofl:, which of course is voluntary according to you.I wonder why most of my russian friends prefer to stay in US than go back to russia.



I provided official UN-statistics, you didn't back up your claims.

I have quoted the numbers. Search them yourself.

[Bheeshma]

Bheeshma


So you compare the execution of some tyrant (who by the way was also responsible for a lot of Jewish blood flowing) to the slaughtering of many innocent people because they are christians?

What tyrant? I am talking about these poor people.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4387202.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4272550.ece

These morons call themselves democratic. :rofl:






In France everyone gets education and growth opportunities. How very different from India, where you can get killed if you happen to belong to the wrong religion, where you get killed if you belong to the wrong caste, where a very large minority of the population (especially girls) never goes to school.

Wrong, In france if you do not conform to the practice of the french you can be expelled from schools and discriminated against in jobs. Practically all minorities in france are underrepresented and are forcibly kept economically backward. Some progresive democratic nation...:tdown:

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: It doesn't belong to Israel. Israel conquered it in 1967

:rolleyes:You are now telling us that the West Bank (formerly the Kingdom of Judah) is not Jewish land and that Israel must give this land to the Arabs, who possess a landmass 640 times that of Israel, and that if they don't do this they can expect an on-going war. There really is no end to your stupidity and ignorance, is there?

[pizza4theidf]

:rolleyes:You are now telling us that the West Bank (formerly the Kingdom of Judah) is not Jewish land and that Israel must give this land to the Arabs, who possess a landmass 640 times that of Israel, and that if they don't do this they can expect an on-going war. There really is no end to your stupidity and ignorance, is there?

Well said. I think Britain should invade France tomorrow. After all, there are plenty of other French-speaking countries in the world - why can't they all go there?

[ItsMyJewty]

pizza4theidf: Well said. I think Britain should invade France tomorrow. After all, there are plenty of other French-speaking countries in the world - why can't they all go there?

Operation Pest Control is continuing. ;):D

[pizza4theidf]

You are a truly sick individual.

[ItsMyJewty]

pizza4theidf: You are a truly sick individual.

Not as sick as 'men' who use women and children as human shields, booby trap zoos and schools, and run round teasing soldiers in concentration camp uniforms. That, Pal, is truly SICK!

[pizza4theidf]

Really. Have you ever considered getting psychiatric help? Sometimes talking over these problems can be really useful.

[ItsMyJewty]

za4theidfpiz: Sometimes talking over these problems can be really useful.

Yes, you should do that. I know how difficult all this must be for you.

[ItsMyJewty]

what's the matter? Cat got your tongue? :D

[pizza4theidf]

Yes, you should do that. I know how difficult all this must be for you.

Difficult? No, not at all :D It's actually quite easy.

[pizza4theidf]

Yes, you should do that. I know how difficult all this must be for you.

A very bad case of projection, I think.

[Madeline]

Difficult? No, not at all :D It's actually quite easy.

Can't you guys take it to PM? The rest of us aren't interested.

[pizza4theidf]

Now you know how it feels when you are sitting down in front of the telly and on comes Mark Regev - bored, nauseous, and waiting for it to end, soon.

[CanDo]

CanDo

It "gaza" doesn't belong to Israel.

There have been Jewish communities throughout Gaza for centuries, just as there has been horrible discrimination and persecution of the minority Jews by the majority Arabs for centuries.

AntiSemites like you intentionally look past centuries of Arab racism, religious intolerance, and violence against Jews, and completely absolve the hateful Arabs of any accountability.

Jews have no choice. Either rule and govern themselves, or suffer at the hands of the Arabs.


Israel conquered it "gaza" in 1967, but this has never belonged to Israel,

Another example of your antiSemitism and ignorance, is in your way of describing the result of Israel defending itself against overwhelming Arab armies that tried to destroy Israel and murder all Jews. How very convenient for someone like you, filled with such hatred and contempt towards Jews to twist history to suit your own racist goals.

And then, you deny Israel's right to Gaza, which they rightfully "won" in defense against the hostile, warring Arab nations.

Plus...... as I said before, there have been Jewish communities throughout Gaza for centuries. You think that they have no right to Gaza? You think that the hateful, racist Arabs have more right to Gaza than Jews, even though the Arab tried to MURDER all of the Jewish families?!


If you insist that these stolen territories should be incorporated in Israel, than ...

Another disgusting, perversion of history. You are saying that Jews "stole" Gaza, not rightfully deserved to keep hold of Gaza because they survived a war that was waged against them by the overwhelming Arab forces that sought to murder all Jews, just as the Arabs today seek to murder all Christians in the Sudan.


... peace is impossible, and it means Israel would deserve war untill it changes its mind. Occupation is an act of war.

What is the use of discussing any adult matter with someone as blind and bigoted as you. If Israel gives up land, causing indefensible borders, there is no doubt that the hostile, racist religiously intolerant, Muslims/Arabs surrounding the Jews of Israel, would continue their quest to drive out, or kill, all Christians, Jews and non-Muslims of the Middle East.

You can't be so uninformed and so ignorant of history, so the only conclusion that I can make is that you are a racist, antiSemite who is just here to satisfy your hatred towards others.

[Mediocrates]

Knock it off all of you.

[bararallu]

Whats the consequences for being a bating troll spamming the Forum? (No I don't mean the usual communist)

[pizza4theidf]

Whats the consequences for being a bating troll spamming the Forum? (No I don't mean the usual communist)

I think a targetted assassination is in order, for anyone who does that.

[pizza4theidf]

Or maybe you should track down the troll's IP address, turn up at his doorstep, and move into his house. He can just go into the garden. I'm sure he won't mind.

[bararallu]

I think a targetted assassination is in order, for anyone who does that.

You betcha. That also why Arab imperialism fails, it's constant over confidence. Enjoy the show.... countdown to full deletion in 10...9...8...7...

[scattergood]

According to Benny Morris 700000 have been forcefully ethnically cleansed.(besides not only muslims but christians as well)

The more you repeat a lie, doesn't make it true. Very andakian of you.

[Yala]

The more you repeat a lie, doesn't make it true. Very andakian of you.

Is that like "fisking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking)?"

[CanDo]

Israel government close to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?


Emerging Gaza ceasefire allows Hamas to restock rockets - and fire them

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5855

From the article:


"DEBKAfile's military sources sum up the Egyptian-Hamas ceasefire accord presented to Israel as no better than a repeat formula of last year's failed informal truce, which led to the outbreak of the current Gaza fighting. One senior officer told us: For this we didn't have to go to war.""

The brave, dedicated fighters of the IDF have given their all and their best, in the hopes of bringing peace and security to the peace-loving families of Israel. But...... is it all in vain? Is Israel's government ready to capitulate to world pressure, and world antiSemitism, and allow Hamas and Iran to, not only claim victory over Israel, but be able to restock with greater and more powerful weapons?

Israel MUST allow the IDF to finish the job, neutralize Hamas, greatly reduce Hamas's ability to smuggle weapons, and get control over the border with Egypt.

Also from the same article:


"Hamas will be free to restock its arsenal through the Philadelphi smuggling tunnels and calibrate its missile fire - in exactly the same way as Hizballah replenishedd its armory from Syria and Iran after the 2006 war and still shoots rockets at will under the noses of UN monitors.

Therefore, although easily vanquished on the battlefield, the Hamas terrorists are winning the diplomatic war against a compliant Israel."

Elections are coming up. I guess the apparent capitulation by Israel's current government is because the politicians think that selling out Sderot, and the neighboring towns and villages, once again, will get them re-elected??? Good grief! Who is more of an existential threat to Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, or Israel's current leaders?

[KiwiWriter]

And what if that "elected government of Palestine" ONLY wants you dead? What, then, is your alternative to negotiations?



It's my understanding that that is why they got elected in the first place.

[KiwiWriter]

Jamaica has a lower suicide rate than the USA or Canada.

After a few Bob Marleys all troubles seem to.... disappear :) I am not big fan of the Caribbean especially after we spent two beautiful honeymoon weeks at a beautiful little town of Palm Cove, in between Cairns and Port Douglas, in Queensland, Australia.

(OOOhhh please don't let the Aussie read this :D) Queensland is very nice, fantastic weather when I went there.

[takeo]

The more you repeat a lie, doesn't make it true. Very andakian of you.

OK, I'm providing a source. And that makes you a liar, very scattergoodian of you. I'm very sure now you're going to ignore this post. That's how you are. Lying and deceiving, just like your idol Bush, the only way you can find arguments for your twisted views.

They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

And that was the situation in 1948?

"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."

The term `to cleanse' is terrible.

"I know it doesn't sound nice but that's the term they used at the time. I adopted it from all the 1948 documents in which I am immersed."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380984

[scattergood]

OK, I'm providing a source. And that makes you a liar, very scattergoodian of you. I'm very sure now you're going to ignore this post. That's how you are. Lying and deceiving, just like your idol Bush, the only way you can find arguments for your twisted views.

They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

And that was the situation in 1948?

"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."

The term `to cleanse' is terrible.

"I know it doesn't sound nice but that's the term they used at the time. I adopted it from all the 1948 documents in which I am immersed."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380984

We will now use your hero's own words to both clarify what HE meant and demonstrate that you are specifically and purposefully using them in a blatantly anti-semitic, racist, and war mongering way:



When a Haaretz interviewer called the 1948 Palestinian exodus "ethnic cleansing," Morris responded that "[t]here are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide�the annihilation of your people�I prefer ethnic cleansing."[2] Morris has also written in the Irish Times in February 21, 2008, that "There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and that "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies -- much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."[24] Morris has criticized Ben-Gurion for not carrying out such a plan, saying "In the end, he faltered... If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

So you are right, he said what he said, as I posted and agreed with before. However you are wrong that he sees it in the Zionist as Nazi / Genocidal Maniac / European Colonizing narrative that you would like to project.

Nice try though, bummer that the facts keep getting in your way.

[bararallu]

Facts? Who needs facts when they have pravda :lol:

[takeo]

:rolleyes:You are now telling us that the West Bank (formerly the Kingdom of Judah) is not Jewish land and that Israel must give this land to the Arabs, who possess a landmass 640 times that of Israel, and that if they don't do this they can expect an on-going war. There really is no end to your stupidity and ignorance, is there?

That's not only what I say, but what even G. W. Bush, Obama, Olmert and many many others say. I guess everyone except your fellow Eretz-Israel lunatics are stupid and ignorant, right? They should be killed, right, just like this traitor Rabin, right? :unsure: (and of course you're not an extremist, it's not your fault that the Holy Jewish land is polluted by dirty Arab blood... it's not your fault that these stupid Arabs don't want to commit mass-suicide... )

So, I have a question, what about the Palestinians living in the occupied territories? Genocide, ethnic cleansing, or just keep them in large open-air concentration camps? What do you prefere? Maybe there will be anti-semites opposing to this, such as human rights watch or Amnesty International, but who cares for these nazi's who dare to criticise you GroB-Israel plans?

[takeo]

We will now use your hero's own words to both clarify what HE meant and demonstrate that you are specifically and purposefully using them in a blatantly anti-semitic, racist, and war mongering way:



So you are right, he said what he said, as I posted and agreed with before. However you are wrong that he sees it in the Zionist as Nazi / Genocidal Maniac / European Colonizing narrative that you would like to project.

Nice try though, bummer that the facts keep getting in your way.

Well, the facts are that Israel forcefully carried out ethnic cleansing of 700000 people. This fact is denied by many people on this forum, and has been omitted from Israeli schoolbooks and official history.
I never said that he sees it as a kind of nazi/European colonising project, on the contrary he defends it. But facts remain facts. I just said that Israel forcefully cleansed 700000 Palestinians. You said I was lying.

[takeo]

Facts? Who needs facts when they have pravda :lol:

Who needs facts when you have fox television and the Jerusalem post?

[bararallu]

Well, the facts are that Israel forcefully carried out ethnic cleansing of 700000 people.

No those are your facts, not "the" facts.

[bararallu]

Who needs facts when you have fox television and the Jerusalem post?

I read Jpost, just like I read the anti Israel Economist and NYT. I dont watch TV, dont even have one.

Hows indymedia and old soviet propaganda doing for you as a news outlet?

[takeo]

CanDo


There have been Jewish communities throughout Gaza for centuries, just as there has been horrible discrimination and persecution of the minority Jews by the majority Arabs for centuries.

There have been Jewish communities troughout France for centuries, should Israel now occupy France? (just try :D )





AntiSemites like you intentionally look past centuries of Arab racism, religious intolerance, and violence against Jews, and completely absolve the hateful Arabs of any accountability.

I'm not an antisemite, that's a dirty lie which you can't proove and you know it. Because you don't have any real arguments you think calling the other site anti-semite or nazi will do it. This is getting tired.
I never denied religious intolerance, violence against Jews or Arab racism, but you deny Jewish intolerance, violence against Arabs and jewish racism which are very real parts of life for Israeli Arabs and for inhabitants of the occupied territory. You completely absolve the hateful Israeli of any accountability. Not so surprising, because you're also full of hate and intolerance.



Jews have no choice. Either rule and govern themselves, or suffer at the hands of the Arabs.

I agree, but they should rule their own country, not the Westbank, Eastern Jerusalem or Gaza.



Another example of your antiSemitism and ignorance

OK, if you like namecalling, I can do better. You're an ignorant nazi who wants "Land, Blut und Bodem".




, is in your way of describing the result of Israel defending itself against overwhelming Arab armies that tried to destroy Israel and murder all Jews.

How do you know they wanted to murder all Jews? Weren't you the one saying that ethnic cleansing and genocide is not the same? And by the way, in 1967 Israel overwelmed Egypt, and it took a tractor deep into noman's land before the Syrians shot back, the ideal excuse to steal the Golan-heights. (if you don't believe me, i have sources to back up that claim, don't worry)
And even if it was a defensive war, does it mean Israel had the right to expend at the expense of others? Resolution 242 clearly stated otherwise.
So you think in august last year Russians had the right to adhere and colonise Georgia?




How very convenient for someone like you, filled with such hatred and contempt towards Jews to twist history to suit your own racist goals.

I have no hatred and contempt for any people, least of all Jews. Not only because I'm largely a Jew myself, but because many of my idols are Jewish. (Marx, Woody Allen, Einstein, Aznavour, etcetera) Unfortunately there are also some real a.$holes among the Jews, such as you and most Israeli politicians. You are full of hatred and contempt for the Arabs (and probably other peoples as well) and you don't do even any effort to hide it. I don't necessarily love Arabs either. But that doesn't mean what Israel is doing to them is right. It isn't.







And then, you deny Israel's right to Gaza, which they rightfully "won" in defense against the hostile, warring Arab nations.

You don't "win" any land in any war, defensive or not. Maybe in the 19th century, when slavery and colonisation was also common. And even in the 19th century it was only legal when recognised by other nations. You should read a few books about international law. This is currently not the case, not a single nation recognised the occupied territories as part of Israel. Resolution 242 clearly states that any nation can't keep land as a result of a war. Again, if it were the case, what should stop Russia from invading Eastern Europe, cleaning it and colonise it with Russians? Would that be right?








Plus...... as I said before, there have been Jewish communities throughout Gaza for centuries. You think that they have no right to Gaza? You think that the hateful, racist Arabs have more right to Gaza than Jews, even though the Arab tried to MURDER all of the Jewish families?!

Who says they tried to murder all Jews? And yes I think Palestinians have more right to have Gaza than Israel. For several reasons.
1) Yes, once Jews lived there, so what, in most of the world there have been historic Jewish communities? Fact is that at least as far as the 8th century this region is mainly inhabited by Arabspeaking muslim or christian people, the predecessors of the Palestinians. Of course this goes for the whole of historical Palestine.
2) It didn't belong to Israel when Israel was internationally recognised. It was conquered by Israel in 1967 but not a single country nor the UN recognised it as part of Israel.
3) 100% of the population is Palestinian, and none Israeli citizen. How can Israel claim a region where not a single Israeli lives? And if becomes part of Israel, but you don't want to give the people living there Israeli nationality, what will happen to these people? Do you honestly believe this is a realistic option?
4) Why should Israel take Gaza? What's the benefit? Isn't Israel big enough?














Another disgusting, perversion of history. You are saying that Jews "stole" Gaza, not rightfully deserved to keep hold of Gaza because they survived a war that was waged against them by the overwhelming Arab forces that sought to murder all Jews, just as the Arabs today seek to murder all Christians in the Sudan.

again the same ranting and lies. Besides, you even lie about Sudan. The war in Darfur is muslim against muslim, and christians in the osuth, where there's no war, have autonomy and will vote on independance next year.




What is the use of discussing any adult matter with someone as blind and bigoted as you. If Israel gives up land, causing indefensible borders, there is no doubt that the hostile, racist religiously intolerant, Muslims/Arabs surrounding the Jews of Israel, would continue their quest to drive out, or kill, all Christians, Jews and non-Muslims of the Middle East.

nonsense and lies, even many Palestinians are christians themselves, some resistance groups are mainly christian. Christians have not been targetted anywhere in the Arab world, except in Iraq since the American occupation(under Saddam christians were priveliged, the prime minister was a christian), and briefly in Egypt by terrorists. In other countries as in India christians are targetted and murdered daily. One staunch Israel-defender on this forum called in this thread for more massacres against Christians.
There are even Jews remaining in most Arab countries, including in Syria.
Again you talk about intolerance and racism but rarily I have noticed more intolerance and hatred as on this forum. Very sad that some Jews are as well intolerant and racist. You would fit perfectly with the stormfront-crowd and talk about how much you hate Arabs, if only these weren't against Jews as well...










You can't be so uninformed and so ignorant of history, so the only conclusion that I can make is that you are a racist, antiSemite who is just here to satisfy your hatred towards others.

yes, all the lies and namecalling once again summarised in a nice conclusion. It's so pathetic.

[Mediocrates]

Yes everything is 'ethic' cleansing. Jews evil - everything their fault. Go hang out with the other racist zombies like Mark Elf.

[takeo]

Yes everything is 'ethic' cleansing. Jews evil - everything their fault. Go hang out with the other racist zombies like Mark Elf.

You always make unbased personal attacks against me, never go into arguments. Yes, yes, I know anyone criticising Israel is a nazi, I know... whenever you can't win with arguments, you can still use the magic word "anti-semite", "nazi" or even worse abuse the Holocaust. But it's getting tired and noone takes it serious anymore. You can see that even within the US the mood is changing, people don't buy that kind of BS anymore.

[takeo]

Not as sick as 'men' who use women and children as human shields, booby trap zoos and schools, and run round teasing soldiers in concentration camp uniforms. That, Pal, is truly SICK!

UN-officials denied the presence of armed Hamas-combatants on the compounts that have been bombed. And were those journalists and small children Hamas-combatants as well? This is really fabulous for the international image of Israel, bombing journalists!

[takeo]

Well said. I think Britain should invade France tomorrow. After all, there are plenty of other French-speaking countries in the world - why can't they all go there?

It's too cold, you can't grow wine in Québec.
Why can't France invade Britain? Australia is big enough and the climate is much better than in GB. I wanted to say the US, but than many would rather fight to death than to move I think. :D

[takeo]

Bheeshma





Wrong, In france if you do not conform to the practice of the french you can be expelled from schools and discriminated against in jobs.

You can't wear the scarve or other religious symbols in schools or public buildings, that's right. Religion should be private, and state and religion should be separated. France is not the only country to do so, even in islamic countries such as Turkey or most ex-Soviet republics it's not allowed to wear the scarve in schools, universities, etc . But of course some members on this forum claim that France is a an islamist republic where the Mullahs and imams tell the government what to do. Somehow I don't think this law fits in this view...






Practically all minorities in france are underrepresented and are forcibly kept economically backward. Some progresive democratic nation...

Somehow this is true. But at the same time this is also the case in the US (eventough they have a black president now, 70% of all prisoners is black, most people who live in poverty are black, in France we have Algerian ministers as well)
But of course in India there are no underrepresentation and economically backwards minorities... :rofl:

[bararallu]

France sheltered and helped install Khomenei (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1857), nice secular state that is.

France also denationalized the Jews, and made them religion only Frenchmen. Pretty secular there.

Because of French interloping, Algeria is seething with Islamist terrorism.

Plus there are more obvious matter (http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2005/camus.html)s, that you are no doubt personally participant in.

Not to say every Frenchmen agrees with you and the Islamist program that France selectively supported or situation they blundered into over the years, there are a lot of opinions. And thankfully most French Jews at least are fully opposite of you in relevant opinions.

[takeo]

Bheeshm


Yeah sure...I guess all the baltic republics that were swallowed by the red army were integration not colonization. Socialist france had how many colonies in Africa and west asia??? :rofl:

these Baltics are the exception, I wasn't talking about them. What can you expect from people who collaborated with the nazi's like no other in Europe (except maybe Austria).




LoL yeah sure. Thats why India had a middle class thats more than 400 million and swelling.

really. So how come onlya tiny percentage of Indians has a bankaccount or a car? What do you mean by "middle class"? That they have electricity and enough food? Than 95%of Russians belong to the middle Class and 99% of Cubans.





LoL Soviets towards the end were begging India for food grains before the collapse in 91.


:rolleyes: yeah right... sure, so India was handing out devellopment aid to a nation with a GNP per capita 20 times it own?



Russian economy is a deep sh/t hole and will continue to remain the same.

perhaps so, but not as deep a sh/thole as India. Besides, most Indians don't have bathrooms or toilets, so the streets become literally sh/itholes. Many people sh/t on the street, you know it is true. that's maybe one of the reasons why everyone travelling to India becomes sick.




China has successfully starved half their population. I agree very successful by your standards.

Very few China are hungry. A lot of Indians are hungry and don't have enough food. Compare the daily calory intake in UNDP-statistics.




Indeed russia has no poverty..
http://seansrussiablog.org/2008/06/14/livin-on-the-russian-poverty-line/
:rofl:

Yes, there is poverty, but compared to India Russia is a very rich country.






Yeah sure...try again idiot. The russian mafia that are smuggling these poor girls into goa and other places around the world certainly didn't get your memo about being their own masters.

I talked to some when I was in Egypt. They are independant and get lots of money. It's the same in Thailand and India. Of course the maffia is involved, but they are certainly not poor or exploited. However the brothels in Mumbay (there is also one very big in Vasco Da Gama) are places full of heavily exploited girls from Northern India and nepal who don't even have propper clothes and live in slums.








a tragedy. Moron only a few women work as expensive call girls the rest are forced and sold like cattle. Come back to mother earth.

In india, yes, but not in Russia or most of the world. For many it's a deliberate choice, they prefere that over working in a factory, and they get lots more of money. Not everyone has a very high ethical standard.





No body takes bath in a sea you moron, thats just ceremonial. Like muslims supposedly cleaning themselves with one fistful of water before prayers :rofl:. Kamasutra is a very non erotic book. Its not playboy meant for wankers like you.

I never saw any naked or halfnaked Indian woman. In Goa only tourists and Indian men expose their flesh. All the women bathed with their Sari.







Yawn ...russian economy 1.28 trillion and going down. Indian economy 1.12 trillion and going up. Give it 2-3 years India will be ahead. Yes a GNP it will lag due to a large population but heck I would rather be an Indian than a commie any day.

Russia is growing at the same rate as India. Difference is that in India 8 times more people live, which means that Indians are at least 8 times poorer than Russians.






Everyone going to russia gets enamored by the amount of flesh trade..:rofl:, which of course is voluntary according to you.I wonder why most of my russian friends prefer to stay in US than go back to russia.

Wages in the US are higher than in Russia, and wages in Russia are higher than in India.

[Y. Shulamith]

Carthage must burn?????

Ethnic cleansing on a large scale a very long time ago....

[Y. Shulamith]

I hate to be trite but "Not every German was a Nazi, and not every Frenchman was a partisan"......so true, so true.....

[takeo]

France sheltered and helped install Khomenei (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1857), nice secular state that is.

France also denationalized the Jews, and made them religion only Frenchmen. Pretty secular there.

Because of French interloping, Algeria is seething with Islamist terrorism.

Plus there are more obvious matter (http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2005/camus.html)s, that you are no doubt personally participant in.

Not to say every Frenchmen agrees with you and the Islamist program that France selectively supported or situation they blundered into over the years, there are a lot of opinions. And thankfully most French Jews at least are fully opposite of you in relevant opinions.

the US too initially supported khomeini, because the alternative would be a leftist pro-Russian takeover. And france didn't support Khomeini for long, France, as the US, supported Saddam in his war against Iran.
France also gave nukes to Israel, forgotten already?
In France everyone is a French citizen and religion or bloodties are subordinate to citizenship. Isn't it the same in the US? I absolutely support that. Everyone should be French citizen in the first place, and Jewish/muslim/etc. in the second place. Unlike UK, where there's even a state religion...
Which Islamic program? What are you talking about? As far as I know France is the first Western nation to actively combat islamism in society, as well as other religious extremism. Or perhaps you think that only muslim extremism should be prosecuted, not Jewish or christian extremism?

And there are as many French Jewish opinions as there are French Jews. Even today there are Jews protesting against the massacres in Hamas, while others defend Israel. Sarkozy (partly Jew himself) said that the conflict in the middle East can't be exported to France. I'm currently in Antwerp, Belgium, and the orthodox community there (one of the largest in the world) has communicated to the major newspapers that they don't support israel and that they cherish their good ties to the Arab community (which is also strong)
(communities of Chasidei Bobov, Chasidei Pshevorsk, Chasidei Satmar and Kehal Chasidim).
One thing is certain, few support the Eretz-Israel fanatical nationalism that seems to be so popular among the participants on this forum.

[takeo]

I read Jpost, just like I read the anti Israel Economist and NYT. I dont watch TV, dont even have one.

Hows indymedia and old soviet propaganda doing for you as a news outlet?

I read and watch everything. English-language tv or newspapers, French-language, russian-language, even Spanish-language media.

[Mediocrates]

Takeo my only response to you is

"etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing etnic cleansing"



lather rinse repeat, there's your 'argument'.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0115/1231738223553.html

West turned blind eye to Hamas until Israel hit back

Why did rocket attacks from Gaza not register on the political or media radar screen before the current offensive,? asks David Adams
I AGREE entirely with the anti-Israeli lobby on one point. The invasion of Gaza, and the resultant death, destruction and misery, need never have happened.

Between the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005 and the start of the offensive last December 27th, Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalist groups launched about 5,600 indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israel.

Yet the international community stood by and did nothing. Where was the UN during this time (unfortunately, this is a frequently asked question where that organisation and conflict zones are concerned)? What did it do to try to stop the attacks? Goodness knows it had plenty of bargaining power if it had chosen to use it.

Through the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the UN has taken on much of the responsibilities of a government in Gaza. At a conservative estimate, it employs some 10,000 local people. It runs schools, medical centres and virtually all other social services, and provides many of the vital necessities of life such as food and medicine.
Why didn’t the UN apply pressure by letting it be known that UNRWA might consider withdrawing from Gaza if the attacks didn’t stop? The prospect of having to justify the loss of jobs and vital aid and facilities to the Palestinian people should have been enough to force Hamas into reconsidering its actions.

We’ll never know, since the UN didn’t bother trying to pressurise them. The level of UN administrative involvement in Gaza would be impossible without constant interaction between representatives of the Islamic fundamentalists and senior UNRWA officials. Perhaps relations between Hamas and some senior UN representatives have become too close, too driven by on-the-ground pragmatism.

The Israelis certainly think so. For years now, they have been voicing concerns that a blind eye was being turned to the storing of armaments in and around some UNRWA facilities.

Where was Tony Blair, official Middle East envoy on behalf of the Quartet (the UN, the EU, the US and Russia), while rockets were being fired from Gaza into Israel? What was he doing? Not very much, it seems.

It was three or four days after Israel began targeting Hamas tunnels, launch sites and munitions dumps before he appeared in public (by which time the French and Egyptians had already begun trying to broker a ceasefire), and a week after that before he made any meaningful public pronouncement. Hardly the mark of someone on top of his job: frankly, he looked and sounded completely out of his depth.

Then there is the western media, the vast majority of which (most particularly, and vitally, in television news and current affairs) hadn’t bothered reporting on the three-year barrage of rockets from Gaza into southern Israel.

Why was this, if, as they rightly tell us, stability in the Middle East is of global importance? After not having informed the public of thousands of Hamas terrorist attacks over the previous years, television news simply continued in the same vein, content from December 27th to present the Israeli offensive as though it had come entirely out of the blue.

It was only towards the end of the first week that the rocket attacks finally did begin to get a mention, but only in the context of a comparative headcount of the dead and injured on either side to stress how “disproportionate� was the Israeli response.

By then it hardly mattered: the damage was done, the Israelis had already been painted as the bloodthirsty villains of the piece.

Israel made a major mistake by not allowing journalists in to cover the fighting at first hand. Consequently, in a fit of pique, the media has acted as little more than an unquestioning conduit for the flow of Hamas-controlled information and footage coming out of Gaza. One really does wonder at times how much encouragement religious fundamentalists take from the easy compliance of large sections of the western media. And, for that matter, from the easy compliance of many governments.

If there was previously no eagerness on the part of world leaders and international organisations to address the deteriorating Middle East situation, this changed dramatically after December 27th.

One of the first out of the traps was British prime minister Gordon Brown, to publicly condemn Israel and call for an immediate ceasefire. This was rich coming from him. After supporting the invasion of Iraq on the (spurious) threat of rocket attacks on the UK, he had a cheek castigating Israel for responding militarily to years of actual bombardment.

This week, thanks to BBC’s Newsnight, it became clear that the Brown government’s primary concern is not the fate of Palestinians or Israelis, but that events in the Middle East might lead to “the further radicalisation of young British Muslims�. In other words, a few extremists from within a tiny minority of the British population are now able to influence UK foreign policy. It is anybody’s guess where sending out that sort of signal to every bunch of fanatics and malcontents within society will eventually lead.

All things considered, is it any wonder that, finally, the Israelis decided to take things into their own hands?

[takeo]

Cappuccino?

Yes, there's some cappuccino in my blood right now, that's why I'm so active.

[Mediocrates]

Thursday, January 15, 2009 Pro-Gaza demonstration in Ramallah canceled for a lack of protesters Pro-Gaza demonstration in Ramallah canceled for a lack of protesters

By Avi Issacharoff , Haaretz Correspondent Last update - 09:25 15/01/2009

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055557.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055557.html)
RAMALLAH - It's quiet in Ramallah. At the northern entrance to the city, not far from the mall, a new fountain spouts water. Next to it lies a sign in English: "Gaza under fire." But it seems the Gaza Strip has never been so far away. Tel Aviv, meanwhile, feels closer than ever. Almost every day at 1 P.M., a demonstration leaves Manara Square in the city center, expressing support for the residents of the Gaza Strip. The number of participants has declined, however, on a daily basis, and on Wednesday the demonstration was called off for a lack of protesters.

Dozens of men sit in cafes near the square playing cards. In the background, the television blasts the voices of Al-Jazeera reporters, who provide continual updates about the events taking place in the Strip. But even the dramatic reports do not stop the card players for a moment.

Occasionally one of them glances up at the screen, but then gets back to business. The offices of the Al-Jazeera television network overlook Manara Square. Walid Omari, the bureau chief for the Palestinian Authority and Israel, explains that "the residents of Ramallah are filling the cafes, the restaurants, watching Al-Jazeera, cursing the situation, expressing anger and then continuing with their own affairs."

Omari explains that the quiet all over the West Bank in the face of the events in Gaza stems mainly from disappointment and frustration with the leadership of Hamas and Fatah.

"The residents of the West Bank lost a great deal in the course of the last Intifada, but saw no achievements. They are very afraid of more losses, mainly in light of the crisis of confidence between the Palestinian street and its leadership."

He refrains from accusing the PA of suppressing the protest demonstrations, a claim that quite a few of his colleagues have made.

"The PA is not preventing people from demonstrating, it is stopping them from coming to points of friction and raising flags other than Palestinian ones.

At the moment, there is a state of despair in light of the intra-Palestinian disputes, but make no mistake. In the 1980s, the despair was even greater because of the leadership vacuum, and nevertheless the first Intifada broke out."

Beneath the Al-Jazeera building, a protest tent for Gaza has been set up. The PA Ministry of Youth and Sports has set up such tents all over the West Bank, possibly in a non-violent attempt to channel the people's frustration with the conflict in Gaza. City residents have brought various items to transfer to the Strip: blankets, clothing, food, medicines, et al. There is no unusual activity at the site. A pamphlet bearing the slogan:

"One homeland, one nation, we are all Gaza" is being distributed to passersby.

But it is difficult not to get the impression that the relative apathy of the Palestinians in the West Bank stems from several reasons that the public does not like to bring up, certainly not in times like these. First and foremost, the historical gaps between the residents of the West Bank and the Strip. The residents of Ramallah and other West Bank cities have always looked down on their brethren in Gaza. Second, the Hamas coup in the Strip about a year and a half ago left behind quite a few scars. To see innocent Palestinian citizens killed in bombings is sad, but for quite a number of Fatah supporters, Hamas brought this upon itself. Mohammed, a 46-year-old businessman, offers another reason for the apathy: "We're afraid to see the tanks outside the house again."

Third Intifada? Not anytime soon

Within this relative quiet, many voices are being heard in opposition to PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah. One of the surveys conducted recently in the territories indicated a dramatic decline in Fatah's strength. The violent crack-down of the Palestinian security forces against Hamas-identified demonstrators, as witnessed last Friday in Ramallah, also increased the criticism against Abbas. The PA chairman and his followers are accused of collaborating with Israel in a war waged against the Palestinian people.

The security cooperation between Israel and the PA is continuing in full force, and that is also one of the reasons for the relative quiet in the West Bank. Although since the start of the fighting there has been an increase in disorderly conduct, there have not been many attempted terror attacks. Apparently a third Intifada will not break out here soon, thanks in large part to the PA.

[takeo]

Maybe this column would get a better reception if it were titled, “No Endgame for Israel”. Because the quantity of commentary claiming that Israel cannot possibly achieve any kind of successful outcome in Gaza is already approaching pre-surge levels of Iraq defeatism.

The argument that Israel’s assault on Gaza is futile has four main parts. First, say the critics, Israel cannot defeat Hamas by restricting its attacks to the relatively safe distance of air strikes and a limited land incursion. Down that road lies a reprise of the failed 2006 war with Hezbollah.

Next, they say, the human cost of taking physical control of Gaza will be too high in terms of Israeli soldiers and Palestinian civilians. Down that road lie memories of the 1982 siege of Beirut. Third, we are told that the only method by which Israel can prevent Hamas from regaining power is by resorting to a full-scale occupation. Down that road lies endless condemnation and, inevitably, another excruciating intifada.

Finally, we hear that by invading Gaza, Israel has further weakened Palestinian moderates and mid-wifed into existence yet another generation of jihadists. Down that road lies the end of the two-state solution and, demography being what it is, the end of the Jewish state itself.

On this point, it would be interesting to know how a two-state solution is supposed to come about by allowing Hamas to rule half of a presumptive Palestinian state. Are we now to endorse a three-state solution of Israel, Hamastan and Fatahland?

Then there is the matter of the war itself. Israel has already demonstrated that it has learnt the principal lessons from the war with Hezbollah. It did not wait too long to begin the ground campaign. It resisted the lure of a premature ceasefire, engineered by others. It did not promise ambitious goals at the war’s outset, only to walk away from them.

On the contrary, the stated goal of a “quiet” border with Gaza has the dual advantage of suggesting a degree of restraint while allowing Jerusalem to preserve its options as the battle unfolds. “Quiet” does not require the destruction of Hamas. But neither does it exclude it.

In other words, instead of being forced publicly to ratchet its aims downward, as it did in Lebanon, Jerusalem can now ratchet them upward, putting Hamas off-balance and perhaps tempting it to cut its losses by accepting a ceasefire on terms acceptable to Israel. Doing so would not quite amount to a defeat for Hamas. But it would be an unambiguous humiliation for a group whose greatest danger lies in its pretension of invincibility.

It is for this reason that Hamas will likely fight on, in the hopes that Israel will flinch. Critics of military action point to this damned-if-Israel-does, damned-if-it-doesn’t scenario as evidence of the folly of the war.

Hamas has been able to arm itself with increasingly sophisticated rockets thanks to a vast network of tunnels running below its border with Egypt. Israel found it difficult to destroy that network prior to its withdrawal from Gaza and will not easily do so now. But by bisecting the Strip, as it has now done, it will have no trouble preventing these rockets from moving north to their usual staging ground, thereby achieving a critical war aim without giving Hamas easy opportunities to hit back.

Israel also has much to gain by avoiding a frontal assault on Gaza’s urban areas in favour of the snatch-and-grab operations that have effectively suppressed Hamas’ terrorist infrastructure in the West Bank. A long-term policy aimed squarely at killing or capturing Hamas leaders, destroying arms caches and rocket factories, and cutting off supply and escape routes will not by itself destroy the group. But it can drive it out of government and cripple its ability to function as a fighting force.

Israel will also have to practise a more consistent policy of deterrence than it has so far done. One option: For every single rocket that falls randomly on Israeli soil, an Israeli missile will hit a carefully selected target in Gaza. Focusing the minds of Hamas on this type of “proportionality” is just the endgame that Israel needs.

Edited excerpts. Bret Stephens is a Wall Street Journal columnist. Comments are welcome at otherviews@livemint.com
http://www.livemint.com/2009/01/12204747/An-endgame-for-Israel.html?h=B



But how will Israel drive out the government? You can cripple its forces but history learns us that for every Hamas-combatant that died 2 will join Hamas. The same happened with Hezbollah. Money is also no problem, as a result of this war they will certainly find even more financers.
As the article stated Hamas can't just accept any cease-fire agreement, because it needs to appear invincible. However, considering the overwelming Israeli military advantage, the bare fact that it survived the assault and continues to rule Gaza, will be presented as victory. Hezbollah did the same, and they see the multinational force at the border as an advantage for them. (protection against Israel). Any cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, will indirectly also imply that Israel recognises Hamas. Israel on the other hand is very much pressured into accepting a cease-fire quickly. The international mood and public opinion in the West and the rest of the world is quickly turning hostile to Israel, more than ever before. It can have farreaching consequence, the Serbs and South-African Apartheid-regime know all about it. The bombing of international journalists and UN-safeheavens aren't contibuting to Israel's image either. Israeli leaders do care, because the EU may postpone or cancel a projected farreaching tradeagreement with Israel.(Israel's largest tradepartner) More worrying is the changing mood in the US, where even top advisors and mainstream media speak out against Israel. Israel doesn't know how Obama will react, but this Israeli offensive doesn't exactly fit in his desired two-state peace. there seems to be a difference within the Israeli government as well. Olmert wants to continue, Barak and Livni would prefere a negociated cease-fire.


And then there's the Arab world, where the conflict stirs the minds and hearts. This recent war made the position of Mubarak very vulnerable. He's seen as complicit, and for the first time since long people in Cairo streets were shouting anti-Mubarak slogans. Syria, on the contrary, takes profit of this war, without directly interfering. Yesterday Assad has been interviewed on the BBC, in English, sounding very moderate and reasonable, still offering a peace-deal with Israel, but not without Golan and without an acceptable solution for the Palestinians. He said that Palestinians elected Hamas and that Israel must recognise this victory, that any peacedeal without Hamas will fail. On the BBC you could see that Egyptian demonstrators were holding pictures of Assad (!) and his (unveiled) wife. Syria is positioning itself as a leading nation in the Arab world, and is quickly restoring relations with the West as well.

In palestine it's certain that Abbas lost a lot of supporters because he didn't do anything to help Gaza. Whenever a deal is signed between Israel and Hamas, Hamas will present itself as victors and martyrs, they'll become heroes. And soon enough they will contest the Fatah leadership in Ramallah, which they accuse of doing nothing but enrich themselves.
Whenever a deal is signed, not only will Israel in fact recognise Hamas, but Hamas will certainly include the lifting of the embargo in any deal, and, doing so, they have actually achieved something.
This latest war and the Israeli reaction was exactly what they needed the boost their declining support. For Hamas, every civilian killed by Israel means more sympathisers, for Israel it means less sympathisers troughout the world.

[takeo]

Thursday, January 15, 2009 Pro-Gaza demonstration in Ramallah canceled for a lack of protesters Pro-Gaza demonstration in Ramallah canceled for a lack of protesters

By Avi Issacharoff , Haaretz Correspondent Last update - 09:25 15/01/2009

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055557.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055557.html)
RAMALLAH - It's quiet in Ramallah. At the northern entrance to the city, not far from the mall, a new fountain spouts water. Next to it lies a sign in English: "Gaza under fire." But it seems the Gaza Strip has never been so far away. Tel Aviv, meanwhile, feels closer than ever. Almost every day at 1 P.M., a demonstration leaves Manara Square in the city center, expressing support for the residents of the Gaza Strip. The number of participants has declined, however, on a daily basis, and on Wednesday the demonstration was called off for a lack of protesters.

Dozens of men sit in cafes near the square playing cards. In the background, the television blasts the voices of Al-Jazeera reporters, who provide continual updates about the events taking place in the Strip. But even the dramatic reports do not stop the card players for a moment.

Occasionally one of them glances up at the screen, but then gets back to business. The offices of the Al-Jazeera television network overlook Manara Square. Walid Omari, the bureau chief for the Palestinian Authority and Israel, explains that "the residents of Ramallah are filling the cafes, the restaurants, watching Al-Jazeera, cursing the situation, expressing anger and then continuing with their own affairs."

Omari explains that the quiet all over the West Bank in the face of the events in Gaza stems mainly from disappointment and frustration with the leadership of Hamas and Fatah.

"The residents of the West Bank lost a great deal in the course of the last Intifada, but saw no achievements. They are very afraid of more losses, mainly in light of the crisis of confidence between the Palestinian street and its leadership."

He refrains from accusing the PA of suppressing the protest demonstrations, a claim that quite a few of his colleagues have made.

"The PA is not preventing people from demonstrating, it is stopping them from coming to points of friction and raising flags other than Palestinian ones.

At the moment, there is a state of despair in light of the intra-Palestinian disputes, but make no mistake. In the 1980s, the despair was even greater because of the leadership vacuum, and nevertheless the first Intifada broke out."

Beneath the Al-Jazeera building, a protest tent for Gaza has been set up. The PA Ministry of Youth and Sports has set up such tents all over the West Bank, possibly in a non-violent attempt to channel the people's frustration with the conflict in Gaza. City residents have brought various items to transfer to the Strip: blankets, clothing, food, medicines, et al. There is no unusual activity at the site. A pamphlet bearing the slogan:

"One homeland, one nation, we are all Gaza" is being distributed to passersby.

But it is difficult not to get the impression that the relative apathy of the Palestinians in the West Bank stems from several reasons that the public does not like to bring up, certainly not in times like these. First and foremost, the historical gaps between the residents of the West Bank and the Strip. The residents of Ramallah and other West Bank cities have always looked down on their brethren in Gaza. Second, the Hamas coup in the Strip about a year and a half ago left behind quite a few scars. To see innocent Palestinian citizens killed in bombings is sad, but for quite a number of Fatah supporters, Hamas brought this upon itself. Mohammed, a 46-year-old businessman, offers another reason for the apathy: "We're afraid to see the tanks outside the house again."

Third Intifada? Not anytime soon

Within this relative quiet, many voices are being heard in opposition to PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah. One of the surveys conducted recently in the territories indicated a dramatic decline in Fatah's strength. The violent crack-down of the Palestinian security forces against Hamas-identified demonstrators, as witnessed last Friday in Ramallah, also increased the criticism against Abbas. The PA chairman and his followers are accused of collaborating with Israel in a war waged against the Palestinian people.

The security cooperation between Israel and the PA is continuing in full force, and that is also one of the reasons for the relative quiet in the West Bank. Although since the start of the fighting there has been an increase in disorderly conduct, there have not been many attempted terror attacks. Apparently a third Intifada will not break out here soon, thanks in large part to the PA.


Yes, but will the PA remain in the hands of Fatah? As the article notices, people are disappointed in Fatah. They can't do much, they are prisoners of the situation, a new intifadeh is not desired by the autority. When the war finishes however, Hamas will force its way back to the Westbank.
only if Abbas' strategy of peacemaking achieves something real in the near future, Israel might be able to avert this. But with netanyahu in power this seems very unlikely.

[Madeline]

UN in Gaza has been shelled
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=286054#post286054

[Reffo]

Yes, but will the PA remain in the hands of Fatah?


But with netanyahu in power this seems very unlikely.

Instead of the above, why don't you ask your Palestinian friends the following question:

Why doesn't Gush Shalom or their ilk get a gurnsey in Israeli elections? Could it be because of what Hamas openly avows to do to Israel and the atrocities that it commits against Israeli civilians?


But in answer to YOUR question, I am not convinced that Fatah is not another Hamas with different tactics to achieve the same aims as Hamas or in other words a wolf disguised in a sheep skin. :scratch: Perhaps you could have a go of convincing me otherwise?

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: So, I have a question, what about the Palestinians living in the occupied territories?

They move to Jordan. Most of them have Jordanian passports, so there'd be no problem.

Sorry we're not up to par on the genocide and ethnic cleansing - after another holocaust maybe, but I can't promise anything.

[takeo]

They move to Jordan. Most of them have Jordanian passports, so there'd be no problem.

Sorry we're not up to par on the genocide and ethnic cleansing - after another holocaust maybe, but I can't promise anything.

So, I'm sorry mediocrates, but there's no other word for it, you want etnic cleansing? So you want to end 1000's of years of Palestinian existance in Palestine? You want a Palestinienfrei GroB-Israel, right?

And what if they don't want to move? What if they would rather die than move? How are you going to organise it? And what if Jordan doesn't want them, what's very likely? Perhaps you can take lessons from history, some other historical movement in the past also tried to do the same, about 70 years ago.

[takeo]

Instead of the above, why don't you ask your Palestinian friends the following question:

Why doesn't Gush Shalom or their ilk get a gurnsey in Israeli elections? Could it be because of what Hamas openly avows to do to Israel and the atrocities that it commits against Israeli civilians?


But in answer to YOUR question, I am not convinced that Fatah is not another Hamas with different tactics to achieve the same aims as Hamas or in other words a wolf disguised in a sheep skin. :scratch: Perhaps you could have a go of convincing me otherwise?

Even today when the entire world condams Israel, Fatah stays calm and continues cooperation with Israel. Fatah really want a two-sytate solution and create their own one-party regime in Palestine (Westbank, East-Jerusalem and Gaza). They don't want to loose everything by attacking Israel. The question is not if Fatah wants it, the question is if Israel wants is, especially if Netanyahu would come to power.
And if Israel doesn't want it, than Fatah lost everything. Then they tried the peaceful way, and failed, and Palestinians will support Hamas.

But even Hamas doesn't want to slaughter every Israeli according to Assad during his BBC-interview. It should be possible to sign a deal with Hamas as well he said, at least if Israel is willing to give up occupation. He said Palestinians desperately want peace, but as long colonisation and occupation of the Westbank and East-Jerusalem continues this is impopssible.

[takeo]

Posted by Takeo:

this forum is like a pro-Israel equivalent of Stormfront.

What? What is that supposed to mean? Dude - I am loosing respect in you....

I mean that it's full of people with extreme ultra-nationalist and racist ideas, full of people who advocate etnic cleansing and other warcrimes.

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: I mean that it's full of people with extreme ultra-nationalist and racist ideas, full of people who advocate etnic cleansing and other warcrimes.

Sorry we're not up to par on the genocide and ethnic cleansing - after another holocaust maybe, but I can't promise anything.

[takeo]

Mil



You don't know nothing about USA.

I know that the gap between rich and poor is much larger in the US than in Western-Europe, especially France. I can provide statistics if you want.


Yeah - of course. There are a lot more rich people in America then in France.

That's right, and there are a lot more poor people as well.



Education of average American is better then of the average French.

I don't think so, and there are even studies that prove it.


Of course - when one quotes Wiki vs. actually reading the source... it says something.

That's because I lack time to go to the library and read up each time. (besides not all libraries have a large selection of English works). Wikipedia is generally accurate, and it's very easy to use in online discussions.
Of course I try to read the original source whenever I have the opportunity and when I'm required to for my job.


Of course. You got socialism.

French economy is not socialist, it's keynesian.



People don't have as much money as Americans... which at the end produces less rich people, large credit card debts, less entrepreneurship, and various side affects like 35 hour weeks.

Yet living standards are a bit higher in France according to UNDP, how is that?
So in the US there are no large credit card debts? And I've been told that this was the main cause of the deep economic crisis which hit the US! In fact in France buying on credit is not as common as in the US. (except for buying real estate property)
Salaries may be slightly lower (however it depends, some jobs gain more in France, especially jobs like factory-worker, etc.) but people don't have a lot to pay for health insurance, education, etc. Also someone can't just get fired without any good reason. There's more job-security, which gives stability to one's life.

And I don't have any problem with the 35 hour week. I've heard that in the US on average people get 3 weeks of vacation a year, and usually work more hours a week than required. Do you live to work, or work to live, that's the question!






That's why most of the high-tech, technological and other progress took place in USA... and that's why everyone wants to come here and not anywhere else.

Actually the dream of most Africans is not the US but Europe. Every day people risk their life crossing the mediterranean in self-made boats. And Europe too, especially france, has a high percentage of hi-tech, technological industry.


India is a third world country. As is Russia.

Russian is a second world country. Not really up to western dstandard, but still an industrialised society where most people enjoy education, a minimal standard, etc. Other second-world countries are for example Turkey, Mexico, Cuba, Portugal, etc.



India is a third world, developing and over-populated country. How do think majority live in China on $2/day?

In China overpopulation has been effectively reduced by the government. Wages in China are raising very quickly, the fastest growth of wages in the world.



Look at the economic growth... bigger then France.

Bigger than the US as well. If you come from zero it's easier to grow rapidly. But still not as fast as china.





? I know hell of a lot more Indians then you do. I know a lot more Chinese, and I know hell of a lot more Russians.

maybe. But that's not the same as actually visiting those countries.

[CanDo]

... I guess everyone except your fellow Eretz-Israel lunatics are stupid and ignorant, right?

All racists, hatemongers and antiSemites like you are stupid and ignorant, ALL of them.


They should be killed, right, ... ? :unsure:

Especially if the racists, hatemongers and antiSemites are a threat to the safety and wellbeing of civilized people.


... (and of course you're not an extremist, it's not your fault that the Holy Jewish land is polluted by dirty Arab blood...

Some of the blame for the mass infiltration of Arabs into the Holy Land is due to the more peaceful, civilized Jewish culture. Jewish communities have always tried to play fair, even when dealing with hostile, uncivilized, backward Arabs.

Unfortunately, the early Jewish communities which settled the Holy Land, and turned desert into farmland, weren't powerful enough to hold back the onslaught of hordes of unwanted Arabs. Even so, Jews treated the Arabs MUCH better than the Jews were treated by the Arabs.

Minorities have always suffered, even today, from the uncivilized, backward, violent cultures of the majority Arabs/Muslims.


... it's not your fault that these stupid Arabs don't want to commit mass-suicide... )

How about mass-exodus instead? :clap:


So, I have a question, what about the Palestinians living in the occupied territories?

Palestinian Arabs who are occupying Jewish land should be forced to leave. There is the question of compensation, though. Should these Arabs be forced to pay compensation for the use of the Judeo-Christian land, to be split between Jewish and Christian communities?

There are 600 Christian churches in Jerusalem alone, but relatively few Christians. Most Christians have been forced from their land by hostile, backward, uncivilized Arabs/Muslims, who are now occupying the land.


Genocide, ethnic cleansing, or just keep them in large open-air concentration camps?

How often do you foam at the mouth like this? Do you have a towel to wipe your keyboard?

[Madeline]

Mil




I know that the gap between rich and poor is much larger in the US than in Western-Europe, especially France. I can provide statistics if you want.





That's right, and there are a lot more poor people as well.




I don't think so, and there are even studies that prove it.



That's because I lack time to go to the library and read up each time. (besides not all libraries have a large selection of English works). Wikipedia is generally accurate, and it's very easy to use in online discussions.
Of course I try to read the original source whenever I have the opportunity and when I'm required to for my job.



French economy is not socialist, it's keynesian.




Yet living standards are a bit higher in France according to UNDP, how is that?
So in the US there are no large credit card debts? And I've been told that this was the main cause of the deep economic crisis which hit the US! In fact in France buying on credit is not as common as in the US. (except for buying real estate property)
Salaries may be slightly lower (however it depends, some jobs gain more in France, especially jobs like factory-worker, etc.) but people don't have a lot to pay for health insurance, education, etc. Also someone can't just get fired without any good reason. There's more job-security, which gives stability to one's life.

And I don't have any problem with the 35 hour week. I've heard that in the US on average people get 3 weeks of vacation a year, and usually work more hours a week than required. Do you live to work, or work to live, that's the question!







Actually the dream of most Africans is not the US but Europe. Every day people risk their life crossing the mediterranean in self-made boats. And Europe too, especially france, has a high percentage of hi-tech, technological industry.



Russian is a second world country. Not really up to western dstandard, but still an industrialised society where most people enjoy education, a minimal standard, etc. Other second-world countries are for example Turkey, Mexico, Cuba, Portugal, etc.




In China overpopulation has been effectively reduced by the government. Wages in China are raising very quickly, the fastest growth of wages in the world.




Bigger than the US as well. If you come from zero it's easier to grow rapidly. But still not as fast as china.






maybe. But that's not the same as actually visiting those countries.

takeo, I have a few simple questions for you, since I really don't understand your motive for coming to this forum. Are you trying to convince Jews to line up like sitting duck for Hamas? To leave a Country that is rightfully theirs? Should Israel be wiped off the map?
If not that, what is your point? You very much seem to be pro Hamas, Jew hating troll. JMVHO.

[CanDo]

Well, the facts are that Israel forcefully carried out ethnic cleansing of 700000 people.

That is a very ignorant, deliberately obnoxious statement. Can you be that stupid and uninformed to not know ANYTHING about the history of that time, or are you just an obvious Jew-hating jerk!?

Arab armies attacked the Jews of Israel in 1948. In other words, WAR broke out. The surrounding Arab armies were trying to murder all Jews and destroy the newly created state of Israel.

For Jews, it was either defend themselves and their families, or die. Those were the only two choices. For the Arab armies, it was either murder all Jews, or not murder all of the Jews. Either way, the Arabs would live to attempt genocide against Jews over, and over and over again.

The Jews of Israel had to stand and fight. There was no other place to go. Their backs were to the wall. Jewish fighters were very badly lacking in weaponry. Most of the antiSemitic world refused to supply Israel with any weapons to defend themselves, same as today. All hell was breaking out, and chances weren't good for survival against the hordes of brutal, backward, uncivilized violent Arabs.

In the meantime, while Jews were fighting for their very lives, Jews throughout the Arab/Muslim world, who had suffered decades of Arab persecution, had to flee, many coming to Israel, even during the War! In other words, in a true, factual sense, Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Arab/Muslim world, not the other way around!


Well, the facts are that Israel forcefully carried out ethnic cleansing of 700000 people.

The facts!? You are such a Jew-hating cretin! What facts, you dolt!

In 1947, right before the first Arab war, there were about 809,100 Arabs in all of Palestine. In 1949, there were 160,000 Arabs still living in the country. Not a very good job of ethnic cleansing, was it, sleazeball!?

Jews couldn't flee, but Arabs could, and they did, as any others would do during a total, all out war. Arabs left their homes, traveled a short distance to safety, figuring that they would move back after all of the Jews were dead. Not a very good job of ethnic cleansing, was it, sleazeball!?

Yet, after the war, the Arab population of Israel continued to grow rapidly. Not a very good job of ethnic cleansing, was it, sleazeball!?

Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state!! Jews, on the other hand, were forced out of their homes throughout the Arab/Muslim world, and had all of their possessions stolen by the Arabs. Not a very good job of Jewish ethnic cleansing of Arabs, was it, sleazeball!?


This fact is denied by many people on this forum, and has been omitted from Israeli schoolbooks and official history.

The fact that is denied most is that trolls like you are allowed to spread your uncivilized, sleazy Jew-hating garbage, without consequence.

Your "facts" claim 700,000 "ethnically cleansed" Arabs, while a UN report at the time documented 472,000 Arab "refugees". But, do the actual numbers really mean anything when faced with the actual historical facts and not your sleaseball, antiSemitic factual distortions?

I don't know what your aim is, by spreading your antiSemitic garbage here within a Jewish forum. I will never understand why there are malicious, hate-filled people, like you, whose main purpose is to spread lies and hatred towards others. Is it just ignorance? A lack of sense? A lack of decency and morals? You probably don't even know.

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: I mean that it's full of people with extreme ultra-nationalist and racist ideas, full of people who advocate etnic cleansing and other warcrimes.

Like you, you mean? I think you need to see a psychiatrist. You're obviously unwell.

[Rob]

I like your reply CanDo. You know people like takeo are delusional and need to twist and distort everything they can, sad thing is they donot even realize this. No point discussing with this antisemite (yep, that´s what he is for sure). I stopped when he started his twisting, backpaddling and distorting concerning Srebrenica: it was very disgusting!

[Mediocrates]

No one is that blinded by ideology. It's intentional, studied, focused.

[CanDo]

... You know people like takeo are delusional and need to twist and distort everything they can, sad thing is they do not even realize this.

Also sad is that, when faced with the facts, and the fact the takeo is DEAD WRONG about Jews obviously NOT ethnically cleansing Arabs in 1948 (although they had every justification to do so!), he will refuse to change his racist, obnoxious, twisted viewpoint. His main purpose for being here, among Jews, is spreading hatred towards Jews, which builds his worthless ego. AntiSemites like takeo are a dime a dozen and very predictable.


No point discussing with this antisemite (yep, that´s what he is for sure).

I don't consider it "discussing". I consider it "exposing".


I stopped when he started his twisting, backpaddling and distorting concerning Srebrenica: it was very disgusting!

The takeos of the world will always take the vermin position on every issue.

The takeos of the world love wallowing in disgusting, antiSemitic filth. I'd be willing to bet that his living quarters are just as disgusting as his mind.

[CanDo]

No one is that blinded by ideology. It's intentional, studied, focused.

I could not agree with you more.

The takeos of this world are premeditated with their hateful, racist rhetoric. They carefully study available antiSemitic garbage, and then follow the herd, constantly posting the same old low-life nonsense.

[ItsMyJewty]

CanDo: I'd be willing to bet that his living quarters are just as disgusting as his mind.

Can'tBe! That's impossible!:rofl:

[bararallu]

من المضحك ان يصدق البلهاء الصهاينة اكاذيبهم
ويصدقون اننا الارهابيون
وهم لا يرتكبون اى جرائم حرب ابدا

هو كبان مطلخ بالدماء وبالخطايا منذ او تجمع اللقطاء من العالم
ارتكبوا دائما دائما الجرائم البشعه

انا قبطية مصرية للعلم ولست مسلمه
لكنى اجد حياتى مع المسلمين آمنه عكس ما تعتقدون ايها الصهاينه يا من تعادون كل الاديان

If you're a copt (http://freecopts.net/english/) I'm a freaking bonobo.

Liars and the lying lies they tell.

[Madeline]

من المضحك ان يصدق البلهاء الصهاينة اكاذيبهم
ويصدقون اننا الارهابيون
وهم لا يرتكبون اى جرائم حرب ابدا

هو كبان مطلخ بالدماء وبالخطايا منذ او تجمع اللقطاء من العالم
ارتكبوا دائما دائما الجرائم البشعه

انا قبطية مصرية للعلم ولست مسلمه
لكنى اجد حياتى مع المسلمين آمنه عكس ما تعتقدون ايها الصهاينه يا من تعادون كل الاديان

You are rude. English please.

[codedvirus]

Originally Posted by EGYPT&GAZA

It is ridiculous to believe stupid lies Zionists
And we believe the terrorists
They do not commit any war crimes never

Is Akban Mtalk blood and Baktaya since Foundlings or gatherings of the world
Always always committed heinous crimes

I am aware of the Egyptian Coptic and I am not a Muslim
But I find my life with Muslims safe contrary to what you think of the Zionists, you Taadun all religions

----------
Originally Posted by EGYPT&GAZA

What this

Leave words and Web sites

Down the street Did you see what my Egyptian dispute between Christian and Muslim students

Not one Christian and Muslim

I am an Arab because I speak Arabic

[Toadstool46]

Thank you Codedvirus for that translation from the expectedly rude Egypt&Gaza.

In response to this ethnic cleansing thing. Correct me if I am wrong but.... The Arabs were not forced to leave the new country of Israel when it was formed. They were told lies by the Arab powers ( imagine that... they were lied to by the Arab powers.???) that the Jews would cause them harm if they were to stay and so then they fled. Many stayed. And the ones that stayed.... get this...... were accepted as citizens in that they VOTED, went to SCHOOL, lived in PEACE, had real JOBS, CONTRIBUTED TO THE BETTERMENT OF THE COUNTRY, had CHILDREN, and GRANDCHILDREN.

Basically they became Israeli people of a different heritage.

The ones who fled became refuges of their own making, influenced by people who caused undo fear and used these Fake refugees as propoganda. And still do. Where in the world has there ever been third generation refugees. That my friends is an oxymoron.

This is just another example of how the Muz radical militants use their own inocent people as pawns in the game of lies and destruction with absolutley no compassion for their fellow man on either side.

Cowards.

[Toadstool46]

What do you think would happen in the ME if the militant MUZ fanatical radicals all got real jobs, started farming and other agriculture, went to school , studied environmental science, biology, engineering, interior design, financial planning, teaching, metal fabrication, transportation and tourism, research, doctors , lawyers, foods and hospitality, seinor citizen homes, law and security, parks and recreation, resaurants, hotels, auto manufacturers, dentists, eye doctors, sports facilities and teams and coaches, veretranary services, insurance companies, ...

Ya I know thats science fiction.

[bararallu]

Toadstool46,

Who's in your Avatar pic?

[Toadstool46]

I don't know,,, my buddy was playing around with my computer. didn't notice it.... he's such a prankster.

[Madeline]

Thank you for the translation...I don't think further comment is needed.
I received the following via E-Mail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzKWQd7Qh_g&eurl=http://www.fivefeetoffury.com/

[Mediocrates]

U.S., Israel Sign Memorandum of Understanding on Ceasefire
Must "Inhibit the Ability of Hamas to Rearm"

Memorandum of Understanding

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni traveled to Washington, D.C. Friday (Jan. 16) to meet with U.S. officials and sign an agreement between the two countries to prevent Hamas and other terrorist groups from smuggling weapons into Gaza through Egypt. [1] [2]

According to State Department Spokesman Sean McCormack, the “Memorandum of Understanding� commits U.S. "resources, wherewithal and technology necessary in order to fulfill our part of the bargain. The essential element of this is to inhibit the ability of Hamas to rearm." [3]

The deal comes as a new bipartisan poll (power point, word document, audio file of conference call (http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=4183369&ct=6501629)) commissioned by The Israel Project (TIP) shows that Americans blame the Palestinians for the current conflict in Gaza (56%-18%). By a wide margin (66%-17%), Americans blame “Hamas leaders who control Gaza� for the current humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. It also comes as Israel continues its 21-day defensive operation in Gaza to put an end to Iran-backed Hamas’ eight-year-old rocket campaign against Israeli civilians. The operation targeted Hamas, including its strongholds and multitude of weapons caches. [4]

Said Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi, founder and president of The Israel Project, "Any sustainable outcome of the war will need three key components: No more rockets fired at Israeli civilians, no re-arming of Hamas, and no more culture of hate that indoctinates Palestinian children to hate Israel on one hand, and uses them as civilian shields on the other. Only when the terror and the culture of hate stops can peace begin."

Prior to the defensive action Israeli officials were vocal and unified in stating their lack of desire to go to war against Hamas and explaining that they were forced to do so to protect their citizens from Hamas’ constant rocket, mortar and missile attacks.

Two days before Israel finally took action, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made a final plea to Gaza residents: “You the citizens of Gaza, you can stop it,� Olmert said in a televised interview on the Arabic TV network al-Arabiya. “I know how much you want to get up in the morning to quiet, to take your children to kindergarten or school, the way we do, the way they want to in Sderot and Netivot…

“We want to live as good neighbors with Gaza,� Olmert said. “We do not want to harm you. We will not allow a humanitarian crisis and that you should suffer from a lack of food or medicines. We do not want to fight the Palestinian people but we will not allow Hamas to strike our children.� [5]

During the past year, Iran-backed terrorist groups in Gaza have fired more than 3,200 rockets, missiles and mortars at Israeli civilians in the southern Negev region, [6] killing four people and wounding more than 270. [7]

Since Israel gave up all of Gaza in 2005 – relinquishing homes, farms, places of business and worship – terrorists have launched more than 6,300 rockets and mortars into Israel from Gaza. The attacks have killed 10 civilians, wounded more than 780 and traumatized thousands of others. [8] The only remaining Israeli in Gaza is Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit who was abducted from Israel on June 25, 2006 by Hamas in a bloody cross-border raid in which the terrorists killed two IDF soldiers and wounded four others. [9]

During a visit five months ago to the southern Israeli city of Sderot, then-candidate and now President-elect Barack Obama defended Israel’s right to protect itself from such attacks: "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing." [10]

In addition to firing rockets and mortars, terrorists have smuggled vast amounts of war materiel into Gaza. Israeli Minister for Public Security Avi Dichter said that in July 2008 alone, more than four tons of explosives were smuggled into Gaza via tunnels dug by terrorists under the Egypt-Gaza border. There are 400-600 smuggling tunnels running along Gaza’s Philadelphi Corridor, the strip of land spanning the border between Egypt and Gaza. [11]

Iran, one of the chief sponsors of Palestinian terrorism, provides approximately $20 million to $30 million to Hamas annually and also trains Hamas operatives in Iran and Syria. [12] Approximately 950 Hamas terrorists have been trained in building rockets and bombs, tactical warfare, weapons operation and sniper tactics by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, a special division of Iran’s armed forces. [13]

Throughout the operation, Israel has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, ranging from issuing warnings to residents to leave homes and buildings being used as weapons storage before the IDF carried out strikes.

Hamas, on the other hand, has gone out of its way to maximize civilian fatalities and injuries by placing children and other civilians in the line of fire. [14]

An Israeli-Arab weekly newspaper article last week told the story of a child describing being used by Hamas as scouts, couriers and other support roles. "We the children, in small groups and in civilian clothes, are fulfilling missions of support for the [Hamas] Resistance fighters, by transmitting messages about the movements of the enemy forces, or by bringing them ammunition and food,� the child said. “We ourselves are not aware of the movements of the Resistance fighters. We see them in one place, they suddenly disappear, and then reappear somewhere else. They are like ghosts, it is very hard to find them or hurt them.� [15]

An in-depth study released this month by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC), "Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e028.pdf),� shows Hamas’ current and past use of children and other civilians as human shields, such as by firing rockets at Israel from densely populated residential areas.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) also provided documented evidence through photos and videos, of Palestinian children being used as human shields (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm) in March 2008. Before attacking buildings Hamas terrorists used manufacture rockets, the IDF – to avoid civilian casualties – sent warnings to Palestinians in Gaza to leave the facilities; Hamas would then call on children and other civilians into and around the buildings. [16] Such incidents have been documented by Hamas’ own media. View clip 1 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Pages/MediaPlayer.aspx?MediaUrl=http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=1915991%21%21%21%21ak=null&LANGUAGE_NAME=En); View clip 2 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Pages/MediaPlayer.aspx?MediaUrl=http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=1913349%21%21%21%21ak=null&LANGUAGE_NAME=En)

At the same time, many Palestinian casualties were caused by Hamas members killing rival moderate Fatah members. Dozens of Palestinians were intentionally killed by Hamas itself. [17]

Hamas also has continued to fire rockets during the temporary humanitarian ceasefire imposed daily to allow a free flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. [18] Nevertheless, Israel has continued to facilitate daily deliveries of food, medicine and other humanitarian aid into Gaza.

[Mediocrates]

Footnotes:
[1] Ravid, Barak, “Report: Hamas ready to begin conditional Gaza truce on Saturday,� Haaretz, Jan. 16, 2009, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056134.html (http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056134.html)

[2] Sofer, Roni, “Livni to get US aid against smuggling,� YnetNews, Jan. 16, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657087,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657087,00.html)

[3] Lee, Matthew, “US, Israel to sign deal to boost Gaza truce effort,� Associated Press, Jan. 16, 2009, http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g14_OgVc3KvfIE0q7FpUa4Ou69QQD95OB1I81 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g14_OgVc3KvfIE0q7FpUa4Ou69QQD95OB1I81)

[4] Harel, Amos, Ravid, Barak, “Palestinians: At least 205 dead, over 200 hurt in IAF Gaza strikes,� Haaretz, Dec. 27, 2008, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html)

[5] “PM Olmert Interviewed on Al Arabiya,� Prime Minister’s Office, Dec. 25, 2008, http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/Spokesman/2008/12/spokeinter251208.htm (http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/Spokesman/2008/12/spokeinter251208.htm)

[6] IDF Spokesperson’s Unit, Dec. 19, 2008; “Iran-backed Terrorists in Gaza Kill 3, Wound Others in Continuing Rocket Attacks on Israel,� The Israel Project press release, Dec. 29, 2008, http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=3587015&content_id={4F0CF025-98BF-4875-A59B-B1F5E4B079F7}¬oc=1; (http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=3587015&content_id=%7B4F0CF025-98BF-4875-A59B-B1F5E4B079F7%7D%C2%ACoc=1) Barzak, Ibrahim and Friedman, Matti, “Israel rejects truce call, pursues bombing Gaza,� Associated Press, Dec. 31, 2008, http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95DQIEO0 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95DQIEO0); Ferziger, Jonathan and Ramadan, Abu Saud, “Israel Advances in Gaza as Sarkozy Leads Truce Effort,� Bloomberg.com, Jan. 5, 2009, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ah8sqE_xotkk&refer=home (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ah8sqE_xotkk&refer=home)

[7] Data relayed to The Israel Project by IDF Spokesman’s Division, Dec 18, 2008; “Hamas fires at Israel, threatening hopes of renewed ceasefire,� The Telegraph (UK), Dec. 24, 2008, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3933368/Hamas-fires-at-Israel-threatening-hopes-of-renewed-ceasefire.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3933368/Hamas-fires-at-Israel-threatening-hopes-of-renewed-ceasefire.html); “Rocket barrage from Gaza as Hamas ends six-month calm,� Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site, Dec. 24, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA)

[8] Data relayed to The Israel Project by IDF Spokesman’s Division, Dec 18, 2008; Berger, Ronny and Gelkopf, Marc, “The Impact of the Ongoing Traumatic Stress Conditions on Sderot,� Natal, The Israel Trauma Center for Victims of Terror and War in cooperation with Dr. Mina Tzemach, Director, Dachaf Public Opinion Research Institute, Oct. 2007

[9] Harel, Amos; Issacharoff, Avi; Haaretz Service and Reuters, "Two soldiers killed, one missing in raid on IDF post," Haaretz, June 25, 2006, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730994.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730994.html)

[10] Ravid, Barak, "Obama in Sderot: Nuclear Iran would be game-changing," Haaretz, July 23, 2008, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1004747.html (http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1004747.html)

[11] “News of the Israeli-Palestinian Confrontation July 22-29, 2008,� Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/jul_e001.htm (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/jul_e001.htm); “Hamas has lately regulated the flourishing tunnel industry in the Gaza Strip,� Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Oct. 28, 2008, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ct_e009.pdf (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ct_e009.pdf)

[12] Hamas," Council on Foreign Relations Web site, http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/ (http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/), retrieved July 7, 2008

[13] “Senior Hamas operative figure tells London Sunday Times’ Gaza Strip correspondent about Iranian and Syria military aid, detailing the training received by hundreds of Hamas terrorist operatives and describing the transmission to Hamas of Iranian technical know-how for the manufacture of rockets and IED,� The Terrorist and Intelligence Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage and Commemoration Center, March 17, 2008, retrieved July 7, 2008, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_160308e.htm (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_160308e.htm); Colvin, Marie, “Hamas wages Iran’s proxy war on Israel,� The Times, March 9, 2008, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3512014.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3512014.ece)

[14] IDF Spokesperson’s Unit, Dec. 19, 2008; “Iran-backed Terrorists in Gaza Kill 3, Wound Others in Continuing Rocket Attacks on Israel,� The Israel Project press release, Dec. 29, 2008, http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=3587015&content_id={4F0CF025-98BF-4875-A59B-B1F5E4B079F7}¬oc=1 (http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=3587015&content_id=%7B4F0CF025-98BF-4875-A59B-B1F5E4B079F7%7D%C2%ACoc=1); Barzak, Ibrahim and Friedman, Matti, “Israel rejects truce call, pursues bombing Gaza,� Associated Press, Dec. 31, 2008, http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95DQIEO0 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95DQIEO0)

[15] Marcus, Itamar and Crook, Barbara, “Hamas using children in combat support roles,� Palestinian Media Watch, Jan. 9, 2009, http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Jan2009.htm (http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Jan2009.htm)

[16] “Hamas exploitation of civilians as human shields: Photographic evidence,� Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site, March 6, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm)

[17] Haas, Amira, “Hamas executes collaborators and restricts Fatah movement,� Haaretz, Jan. 8, 2009, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053825.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053825.html)

[18] Sofer, Roni, “Olmert apologizes to UN chief for UNRWA compound strike,� YnetNews, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656903,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656903,00.html)

[19] “Humanitarian aid to Gaza during IDF operation,� Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2009/Humanitarian_aid_to_Gaza_following_6_month_calm.ht m (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2009/Humanitarian_aid_to_Gaza_following_6_month_calm.ht m)
[20] Ibid.

[21] Ibid.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2009/Humanitarian_aid_to_Gaza_following_6_month_calm.ht m

[andak01]

Where in the world has there ever been third generation refugees?

I thought the very basis of Israel was that it's a country for refugees of the diaspora.

[Yala]

I thought the very basis of Israel was that it's a country for refugees of the diaspora.

nope:cool:

[CanDo]

... In response to this ethnic cleansing thing. Correct me if I am wrong but.... The Arabs were not forced to leave the new country of Israel when it was formed.

Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state!! It was Law!

Jews, on the other hand, were forced out of their homes throughout the Arab/Muslim world, and had all of their possessions stolen by the Arabs.

The antiSemitic world ignores this stark contrast in treatment between Jews at the hands of Arabs and Arabs at the hands of Jews. The Arabs can be as racist, hateful, violent, religiously intolerant and uncivilized, as they choose, and the wimpish leaders of the world look the other way.


They were told lies by the Arab powers ( imagine that... they were lied to by the Arab powers.???) that the Jews would cause them harm if they were to stay and so then they fled. Many stayed. And the ones that stayed.... get this...... were accepted as citizens in that they VOTED, went to SCHOOL, lived in PEACE, had real JOBS, CONTRIBUTED TO THE BETTERMENT OF THE COUNTRY, had CHILDREN, and GRANDCHILDREN.

Basically they became Israeli people of a different heritage.

It was a shame that ALL of the Arabs didn't flee. Sadly, Israel will ALWAYS have to put up with enemy Arabs within it's own borders, most of whom have no desire for peaceful existence with Jews.

Is it too late to rectify this problem? Jews are constantly exposed to the evils of antiSemitism. Why live among hateful, backward, uncivilized Arabs if you don't have to?

[dayag]

I thought the very basis of Israel was that it's a country for refugees of the diaspora.


nope:cool:

Huh?!
:scratch:

Yala, could you expand on what you mean?

[Reffo]

Even today when the entire world condams Israel, Fatah stays calm and continues cooperation with Israel. Fatah really want a two-sytate solution and create their own one-party regime in Palestine (Westbank, East-Jerusalem and Gaza).Has Abbas changed his mind about recognizing Israel as a Jewish state? This is what he said on 02/12/2007:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas reiterated his refusal on Saturday to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, Israel Radio reported.

Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929978.html)

Also, has he renounced the so called "Right of Return" demand? This is what he said on 12/09/2008:


but insists that any future deal will have to include the right of return for Palestinian refugees.

Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020448.html)

Because if he hadn't changed his mind about those two issues, then all he wants is to trick Israel into giving up land, building up a Palestinian army and then after a few years attack Israel again under the pretext that Israel has not met their "Right of Return" demand.


They don't want to loose everything by attacking Israel.All that tells me is that they are smarter than Hamas. They don't want to attack Israel while they are weak. How do we know that they are not just trying to trick Israel into giving up land? See my questions above.


The question is not if Fatah wants it, the question is if Israel wants isIsrael wants it but only if they think that there is a chance for genuine peace, not pretend peace. Ehud Barak already proved this with his year 2000/2001 peace offer which Fatah rejected under Arafat.


especially if Netanyahu would come to power.I have already asked you this: Don't you think that Hamas's behaviour is making it more likely that Israelis will vote for a strong leader like Netanyahu? Why didn't you respond to my question? Was it too hard for you?


But even Hamas doesn't want to slaughter every Israeli according to Assad during his BBC-interview.Are you for real? :lol: And Israelis should believe Assad whose own father exterminated 25,000 Syrians in Hama just because they opposed his regime?

I think that most Israelis tend to believe what Hamas says in it's own charter about what they want to do to Israel..


It should be possible to sign a deal with Hamas as well he said, at least if Israel is willing to give up occupation.We have already been through this. And I thought that you agreed with me that Hamas's definition of "Occupation" is the land between the river (Jordan) and the sea (the Mediterranean). In other words, they include Israel proper as occupied land.

So, are you seriously suggesting that Israel should voluntarily allow itself to be taken over by Hamas? :unsure:

[bararallu]

Abbas, is also a published Holocaust denier, he never ever contradicted his vicious soviet and Nazi informed positions that he posed in his treatise. even after being called on it by Elie Wiesel. I wonder why those European govts that have laws on their books regarding Holocaust Denial grant him entry into their countries, much less receive him with open arms... hypocrites. But most of all how can the Israeli govt deal with such a monster.

[Madeline]

Have you ever wondered how biased takeos(...and those who think like him..) info must be to come to those conclusions? I can turn this over again and again, and I still can't reason like he does.

[bararallu]

Have you ever wondered how biased takeos(...and those who think like him..) info must be to come to those conclusions? I can turn this over again and again, and I still can't reason like he does.

It's called having communist agents for parents. ;) Nothing beats propaganda as it's suckled at an early age. You will notice that 90% of the Jews that are against Israel are communists or closely related. The other 10% are some moronic ultra orthodox (like the NK) who are as Luddite as they are complicit in supporting genocidal maniacs (Iran). Fundamentally, they are related creatures. The former is waiting for a class revolution to happen so that Jews, and everyone else, loose their nationality, their very self identity, and loose all the "corruption of money" and ultimately live like happy lilies, without a worry in the world, in any pond they choose on earth. Pipe Dream (not the good pipe either). The latter, need a messiah to deliver to them the same thing. Because in their book God cannot work through the hands and minds of Men and Women. Obviously people who dont pay attention to the Talmud or the rest of our tradition. They are paranoid and privative, and would like nothing more then to remain so.

Neither of them are pragmatic, nor really even in touch with reality at any given moment. They drive their propaganda hard though, perhaps to calm the itching fear that they are wrong, and if history shows anything (soviet purges of Trotsky, menshavik, or even bundist supporting Jews,and ultra religious unable to fight or flee pits that they were buried alive in during the Shoah), they are dead wrong. As wrong as wrong gets.

[Bheeshma]

There is nothing surprising in the way takeos keeps throwing in ideas about israeli or palestinian genocide. Communism in most countries was spread through sword and rampant killings. It comes naturally to these morons. The simplest way to deal with them is ignore them.

[Yala]

Huh?!
:scratch:

Yala, could you expand on what you mean?

Andak is following the typical Arab line - that Israel and Zionism was a result of the Holocaust. From here it's only a hop, skip and a jump to asking why the Palestinians are paying for the Holocaust. I already read the script.

I have relatives who moved to Israel before the 30's and in the 80's. Neither were refugees. Israel was not "created" for refugees. It was re-created for Jews.

[Madeline]

Andak is following the typical Arab line - that Israel and Zionism was a result of the Holocaust. From here it's only a hop, skip and a jump to asking why the Palestinians are paying for the Holocaust. I already read the script.

I have relatives who moved to Israel before the 30's and in the 80's. Neither were refugees. Israel was not "created" for refugees. It was re-created for Jews.

One word sums it up alright, and we don't have to thank any human for it either.
Israel was created, and that is that. Once everyone understands that, all conflict should end.

[Madeline]

Bararallu:
"They drive their propaganda hard though, perhaps to calm the itching fear that they are wrong, "

That about explains it all. That fear is what drives most to insanity.

[takeo]

OK, I understood, everything, I'm a vicious racist, self-hating Jew, anti-semite and nazi because I want a two-state solution and peace. Only the people like Cando who want to purge Israel and the occupied territories of any non-Jews are the good guys... And this forum is mainly visited by people who want peace (peace meaning no Palestinian subhumans remaining) on the contrary to people like me who are vicious anti-semites because they don't think Israel has the right to "end Palestinian existance in Israel and Palestine" (it's not called ethnic cleansing or genocide, these terms are only reserved for Israeli, not for Arabs)...

My God you people are very far, far beyond any border of insanity...
I'm sorry, but yes, this is something Israelforum has in common with a forum like stormfront.

[Madeline]

OK, I understood, everything, I'm a vicious racist, self-hating Jew, anti-semite and nazi because I want a two-state solution and peace. Only the people like Cando who want to purge Israel and the occupied territories of any non-Jews are the good guys... And this forum is mainly visited by people who want peace (peace meaning no Palestinian subhumans remaining) on the contrary to people like me who are vicious anti-semites because they don't think Israel has the right to "end Palestinian existance in Israel and Palestine" (it's not called ethnic cleansing or genocide, these terms are only reserved for Israeli, not for Arabs)...

My God you people are very far, far beyond any border of insanity...
I'm sorry, but yes, this is something Israelforum has in common with a forum like stormfront.
If we are THAT offensive, why don't you just stay away? Aren't you too good for us?

[Sharona]

Takeo - wanting a two-state solution and getting it are two very different things.

Each nation has its own culture and outlook. Even amongst, say, the Americans, Brits and Europeans you will find differences - although generally speaking, they are quite mild.

It wasn't until I lived in the Middle East that I realised how some mindsets are so far apart that finding a middle ground is extremely difficult.

A couple of years ago on TV, this point was apparent in a TV debate involving well-known intellectuals and a Mulsim fundamentalist. The intellectuals had all the logical questions - such as why the man stayed in the UK if it was so offensive to him and what were the chances of a Brit having a) the freedom of speech in his country (the fundamentalist's country) and/or b) the freedom of speech that allowed him to rouse others to fight against his/her host country? Many other questions like that were presented but all were answered with completely illogical answers - or so it would seem to a European mindset. The 'intellectuals' were so used to debating from their logical point of view that they became increasingly frustrated and eventually, angry, with his replies.

So although a two-state solution might appear to be the most productive way forward, it requires both mindsets to be on the same page. And they aren't - at least, not those who are led by groups like Hamas.

[Reffo]

Takeo - wanting a two-state solution and getting it are two very different things.....

It wasn't until I lived in the Middle East that I realised how some mindsets are so far apart that finding a middle ground is extremely difficult.You are absolutely right but not only are these mindsets so far apart in the Middle East but with the likes of Takeo as well. They keep on asserting that they want a two state solution but in reality nothing could be further from the truth. What they really want is to bluff Israel into giving up a strategic asset like land without giving Israel anything in return. And what is Israel expecting in return? All it wants is to get the Palestinian Arabs to FORMALLY renounce their past PRETEXTS for war. I don't want to repeat what I already said to Takeo (twice) but if you are interested then just click here, it seems Takeo finds it extremely inconvenient to answer my questions ....:tdown:

[Toadstool46]

Yes the good old two state "solution". Lets look at that statement.

First. What two states. One of course would be Israel, that has existed for more than 2000 years and its people, the Jews have always been present in the land of Israel and existed as a people throughout the world.

The second is ... who? the Palastin a what.... Palestinians? who have existed for what 20 years. or where fabricated in the 70's only to create a foe for the people of Israel.
Only to create a group of people for the purpose of simply be a thorn in the side of the Jewish people and fight for the Land given to the Jewish people to form a peaceful country. A name given to a people whose sole purpose is to create a fault in the rock and start the drive to wipe Israel off the map. Face it.... they are just Arabs with an ulterior motive.

Third and final... "two state solution" is an oxymoron. IT will never be a solution. Every one knows that if you give the Arabs another state.... that will not be enough. they won't be happy. They will NEVER be happy until Israel doesn't exist as a country, people or nation. PERIOD.

So you can stop with the whole two state solution joke. It will never happen.

[Toadstool46]

I believe that secretly the muZ people know that their religion is based on total falsehoods, is a total lie, is never going to out last the worship of the one true God. Muz people know that theirs is a religion of hate as opposed to love, killing as opposed to saving, heartlessness as opposed to compassion, rejection as opposed to acceptance, selfishness as opposed to selflessness, taking as opposed to giving, laziness as opposed to hard workers, binding as opposed to freedom, poverty as opposed to charity and hopelessness as opposed to hope.

Because of this they want to rid the world of this people, this religion, this truth.

Then they will not have the constant reminder of their apostate and satanic beliefs.

[takeo]

If we are THAT offensive, why don't you just stay away? Aren't you too good for us?

Because in a way, it's interesting. Posting on stormfront is interesting too (altough I got banned after my third post :tdown: ). See it as the big "clash of thoughts", communist versus nazi, humanist versus racist, etc.
It's more interesting to debate with people who have totally oppposite views than with people who think like you. In real life, this is difficult, because it would end in violence. When I was in Israel or the Arab world, and talked to hardcore fanatics, both Israeli or Palestinians, I couldn't say what I really was thinking at that moment, on internet, it's possible without being harmed phisically. And that's interesting.
There's of course a difference between isreaelforum and stormfront. Many people on this forum think they are humanists, democrats, that they represent the western values. They are not, of course, they advocate etnic cleansing and other nazi ideals for example, but it's difficult to expose them, as they are clever. But whenever I can, it's fun to confront them with their own inconsistencies and lies.
Of course it's getting tired and the answers are so very predictable, but i think the only way to expose them and their lies is to debate with them, confront them with real arguments and real facts.
By the way, fortunately, you people don't represent Israel nor the US. I even demonstrated that the views of people like Olmert, Barak, and other Israeli leaders are a lot closer to my toughts than to yours. And there are many Israeli Jews who share my opinion. (see next post). This is good, I don't loose hope in humanity, and especially in the Jewish people. Many Jews, even in Israel, speak out against your kind.

[Madeline]

Because in a way, it's interesting. Posting on stormfront is interesting too (altough I got banned after my third post :tdown: ). See it as the big "clash of thoughts", communist versus nazi, humanist versus racist, etc.
It's more interesting to debate with people who have totally oppposite views than with people who think like you. In real life, this is difficult, because it would end in violence. When I was in Israel or the Arab world, and talked to hardcore fanatics, both Israeli or Palestinians, I couldn't say what I really was thinking at that moment, on internet, it's possible without being harmed phisically. And that's interesting.
There's of course a difference between isreaelforum and stormfront. Many people on this forum think they are humanists, democrats, that they represent the western values. They are not, of course, they advocate etnic cleansing and other nazi ideals for example, but it's difficult to expose them, as they are clever. But whenever I can, it's fun to confront them with their own inconsistencies and lies.
Of course it's getting tired and the answers are so very predictable, but i think the only way to expose them and their lies is to debate with them, confront them with real arguments and real facts.

But, of course, you can read into this whatever you want...cherry pick if you will. It is amazing that two people can read the same story, and get a completely opposing message. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....and if you want to see us as fanatics, that is by your choice, not because we are. All we do is disagree with your point of view, and you don't like it.

[takeo]

I agree 100% with Gideon Levy.

[takeo]

But, of course, you can read into this whatever you want...cherry pick if you will. It is amazing that two people can read the same story, and get a completely opposing message. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....and if you want to see us as fanatics, that is by your choice, not because we are. All we do is disagree with your point of view, and you don't like it.

I can cope with differences of opinion, many on this forum can't. They start to call names, and personally insult me.

And indeed I can't see how you can combine calls for etnic cleansing and eternal submission of an entire people with humanist, democratic values, that's right. To me (and most people, among which many fellow Jews) that's fanatism.

[takeo]

I believe that secretly the muZ people know that their religion is based on total falsehoods, is a total lie, is never going to out last the worship of the one true God. Muz people know that theirs is a religion of hate as opposed to love, killing as opposed to saving, heartlessness as opposed to compassion, rejection as opposed to acceptance, selfishness as opposed to selflessness, taking as opposed to giving, laziness as opposed to hard workers, binding as opposed to freedom, poverty as opposed to charity and hopelessness as opposed to hope.

Because of this they want to rid the world of this people, this religion, this truth.

Then they will not have the constant reminder of their apostate and satanic beliefs.


You are stuck in the Middle Ages and no better than the islamists themselves. All religions claim that their own one is the one one and that the other proclaim falsehoods.
You accuse them of advocating hate, killing, heartlessness, and lacking compassion, but most people on this forum lack compassion (especially towards their perceived ennemies) and call for more hate, killing, and heartlessness. They reject peace with their neighbours, only think about their own selfish interests(by the way capitalism is all about selfishness), and don't offer any hope for a non-violent solution.

[takeo]

Yes the good old two state "solution". Lets look at that statement.

First. What two states. One of course would be Israel, that has existed for more than 2000 years and its people, the Jews have always been present in the land of Israel and existed as a people throughout the world.

The second is ... who? the Palastin a what.... Palestinians? who have existed for what 20 years. or where fabricated in the 70's only to create a foe for the people of Israel.
Only to create a group of people for the purpose of simply be a thorn in the side of the Jewish people and fight for the Land given to the Jewish people to form a peaceful country. A name given to a people whose sole purpose is to create a fault in the rock and start the drive to wipe Israel off the map. Face it.... they are just Arabs with an ulterior motive.

Third and final... "two state solution" is an oxymoron. IT will never be a solution. Every one knows that if you give the Arabs another state.... that will not be enough. they won't be happy. They will NEVER be happy until Israel doesn't exist as a country, people or nation. PERIOD.

So you can stop with the whole two state solution joke. It will never happen.


israel didn't exist for 2000 years, Jewish presence existed for more than 2000 years, and Palestinian (or, if you prefere, Arab) presence existed for at least 1300 year, but most likely much longer (all evidence points towards the fact that Palestinians are in fact the heirs of the ones who lived in the region before the Arab invasion, and adopted Arab as a language, and some adopted Islam as a religion).
If you say that Palestine identity is fabricated in the 70's than I can say zionism is fabricated in the 19th century. But whatever the case, Palestinian people do exist and lived there for many centuries, just like Jews. But Palestinians were majoritarian untill 1948, when most of them were cleansed. Most Israeli have parents or grandparents born outside the region, in faraway countries like Russia, Iran or Morocco, almost all Palestinians can trace back their origins in the area between the mediterranean and Jordan river.
Palestinians do exist, there are millions of them, and you can't just make them disappear. They are a people, which deserves rights, just like any people. You can't say that the goal and purpose of an entire people is to spoil it for other peoples. These kind of things have been said in the past tough, in Europe, about 70, 80 years ago.

How do you know they won't be happy with a two-state solution if you never try? Of course that's what i want, and Fatah has recognised Israel. Hamas not yet, but it might happen in a broader peace-initiative. Peace is not one-sided you know. But of course since you want to continue colonising and occupying Palestinian land, you don't want a two-state solution. That's the real problem.

[takeo]

Reffo


Has Abbas changed his mind about recognizing Israel as a Jewish state? This is what he said on 02/12/2007:


Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929978.html)


"Historically, there are two states - Israel and Palestinian. Israel has Jews and other people, and this we are ready to recognize, but nothing else," the radio quoted Abbas as saying shortly after he landed in Saudi Arabia after brief stops in Egypt and Jordan.

Abbas clearly recognises Israel, not no, not as a Jewish state, because Palestinians live there as well. Would you recognise Australia and the US as "protestant white Aryan" states? Other people live in Australia and the US as well.





Also, has he renounced the so called "Right of Return" demand? This is what he said on 12/09/2008:



Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020448.html)

This is what he said:(from your own link)

Regarding the refugees, the Palestinian president said: "We understand that if all five million refugees return to their homes, the State of Israel will be destroyed." Nonetheless, he added, Israel must discuss both its responsibility for the refugee problem and a practical right of return.

From his remarks, it was apparent that he was trying to bring across the message that he is probably the best negotiations partner Israel can currently hope for. On one issue, however, he was adamant: the right of return. In any future peace deal, Israel will have to commit to absorbing Palestinian refugees, following negotiations over the numbers, he insisted.

"Palestinians who do not return to Israel will be able to return to Palestine," he continued. He also said a solution to the refugee problem would be based on the Arab peace initiative of 2002, which stated that the solution must be based on United Nations Resolution 194, but acceptable to Israel.

This is also what Arafat said. (altough some people on this forum continue to lie that Palestinians want all 5 million to return)
And of course, his demands are completely justified and internationally endorsed. No solution without a solution for the refugees.



Because if he hadn't changed his mind about those two issues, then all he wants is to trick Israel into giving up land, building up a Palestinian army and then after a few years attack Israel again under the pretext that Israel has not met their "Right of Return" demand.

No, in your own link he said all issues need to be resolved at once, unlike during Oslo. He also favors a strong international force separating both countries. Many Palestinians also want Jerusalem to become a city secured by international UN-troops. They want their state to be secure. You continue to say that Abbas uses the two-state solution as a trick to attack Israel, without providing any proves of it. But I think the main problem is that YOU don't want to see international troops in East-Jerusalem, or on the green line. You think all of the area between the Jordan river and the sea should belong to Israel. And that's the biggest problem.






All that tells me is that they are smarter than Hamas. They don't want to attack Israel while they are weak. How do we know that they are not just trying to trick Israel into giving up land? See my questions above.

see my answers above.



Israel wants it but only if they think that there is a chance for genuine peace, not pretend peace.

There will be genuine peace, if there's a genuine solution acceptable to the palestinians. As Abbas said, it doesn't mean the destruction of Israel, but a solution based on the UN-resolutions, with the green line as a border, and a just and equilibrated solution for the refugees, which will not fundamentally change the demographical balance of Israel or endanger it.



Ehud Barak already proved this with his year 2000/2001 peace offer which Fatah rejected under Arafat.

As the senior American advisor on the Middle-East for the Bush and Clinton administrations I quoted above in this same thread pointed out, this wasn't a genuine or a serious offer.



I have already asked you this: Don't you think that Hamas's behaviour is making it more likely that Israelis will vote for a strong leader like Netanyahu?

Of course, and I'm sure that Netanyahu's refusal to talk about peace will in turn benefit Hamas. That's also what most analysts expect to happen.



Are you for real? :lol: And Israelis should believe Assad whose own father exterminated 25,000 Syrians in Hama just because they opposed his regime?

Israel just exterminated over 1000 Palestinians in a few days. The Us millions in Vietnam and many 10000's in Iraq. Assad senior exterminated islamist terrorists. Why are you suddenly sympathising with those islamists? It only proves my point that the regime is not islamist at all.
Or is this just another excuse of yours not to give back the Golan heights?








I think that most Israelis tend to believe what Hamas says in it's own charter about what they want to do to Israel..

We have already been through this. And I thought that you agreed with me that Hamas's definition of "Occupation" is the land between the river (Jordan) and the sea (the Mediterranean). In other words, they include Israel proper as occupied land.

The IRA also included the whole of Northern Ireland in their map. Yet still GB made peace with them, which was the right thing to do. If GB would instead have bombed Ireland to peaces, there would still be war and bloodshet going on in Ireland. Hamas will have to do some concessions if Israel in return dooes some concessions as well. There's no other way. It seems Hamas is there to stay, especially after this latest war, which brought them great popularity.

[takeo]

There is nothing surprising in the way takeos keeps throwing in ideas about israeli or palestinian genocide. Communism in most countries was spread through sword and rampant killings. It comes naturally to these morons. The simplest way to deal with them is ignore them.

You are the one advocating slaughtering christian missionaries! And you dare to lecture me about "sword and rampant killins". Fact is that Israel has been created trough the sword.

[takeo]

One word sums it up alright, and we don't have to thank any human for it either.
Israel was created, and that is that. Once everyone understands that, all conflict should end.

Most palestinians understand and accept it these days, but they don't accept the occupation of Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem, nor does the rest of the world.

[takeo]

bararallu


It's called having communist agents for parents. ;) Nothing beats propaganda as it's suckled at an early age. You will notice that 90% of the Jews that are against Israel are communists or closely related.

nonsense, most are humanists, such as the many human right groups in Israel condamning the slaughter in Gaza. For them western enlighted values like human rights, dignity, freedom and equality of all peoples above race and religion, truly mean something. Most on this forum don't really subscribe to these values. Most criticisers of the Bush-administration, among which some important republicans as well, said that Bush undermined these fundamental values, and as a result of it the US lost its moral superiority over other countries such as China or Russia. And Bush is still very moderate compared to most members on this forum.


And yes I know, all Jews not agreeing to you are traitors and self-denying...(just summarising the rest of your ranting)




Neither of them are pragmatic, nor really even in touch with reality at any given moment. They drive their propaganda hard though, perhaps to calm the itching fear that they are wrong, and if history shows anything.


That's a nice definition to describe the ultra-nationalist xenofobian racists on this forum.

[takeo]

bararallu


Abbas, is also a published Holocaust denier

source please...


, he never ever contradicted his vicious soviet and Nazi informed positions that he posed in his treatise.

sources??????:scratch:



even after being called on it by Elie Wiesel. I wonder why those European govts that have laws on their books regarding Holocaust Denial grant him entry into their countries, much less receive him with open arms... hypocrites. But most of all how can the Israeli govt deal with such a monster.


You forgot the US-government as well, which clearly adores Abbas.
Because they aren't hatefull racists like you. (it's getting so crazy that now I find myself defending Bush and Olmert!)

[takeo]

Like you, you mean? I think you need to see a psychiatrist. You're obviously unwell.

My views are mainstream concerning a two-state solution, yours are not.

[takeo]

Some of the blame for the mass infiltration of Arabs into the Holy Land is due to the more peaceful, civilized Jewish culture. Jewish communities have always tried to play fair, even when dealing with hostile, uncivilized, backward Arabs.

Yet another lie. Benny Morris (him again, and not a leftist but a rightwing zionist) concluded, along with almost all other historians and historical sources, that Arab-speaking muslim and christian Palestinians lived in this area as a clear majority, and in big cities like Haifa and Jaffa, for many centuries, and long before the arrival of the first zionist colonists.



Unfortunately, the early Jewish communities which settled the Holy Land, and turned desert into farmland, weren't powerful enough to hold back the onslaught of hordes of unwanted Arabs. Even so, Jews treated the Arabs MUCH better than the Jews were treated by the Arabs.

The whole of Palestine wasn't desert, Arabspeaking people owned most of the land suitable for agriculture in Palestine up untill 1948. I provided many times on this forum statistics from the English census during the 40's.




Minorities have always suffered, even today, from the uncivilized, backward, violent cultures of the majority Arabs/Muslims.

There are many christian Palestinians, christian Syrians, etc.




How about mass-exodus instead? :clap:

not a chance. Unless of course, you give them a little hand. Trains have been used in the past.







Palestinian Arabs who are occupying Jewish land should be forced to leave.

So you want to get rid of people who lived there for many generations, even many centuries? If it's not etnic cleansing, how would you call it?




There is the question of compensation, though. Should these Arabs be forced to pay compensation for the use of the Judeo-Christian land, to be split between Jewish and Christian communities?

Christians are just as persecuted by the Israeli as muslims, and they fight occupation just as hard, there's no distinction.

[takeo]

CanDo


That is a very ignorant, deliberately obnoxious statement. Can you be that stupid and uninformed to not know ANYTHING about the history of that time, or are you just an obvious Jew-hating jerk!?

I provided facts and links to an Israeli (rightwing) historian, which is also respected by many other posters on this forum. But of course if you live in your own universe, facts don't count.





Arab armies attacked the Jews of Israel in 1948. In other words, WAR broke out. The surrounding Arab armies were trying to murder all Jews and destroy the newly created state of Israel.

Who says they were trying to murder all Jews?



For Jews, it was either defend themselves and their families, or die.

For Palestinians, it was the same.



Those were the only two choices. For the Arab armies, it was either murder all Jews, or not murder all of the Jews. Either way, the Arabs would live to attempt genocide against Jews over, and over and over again.

I see you use the word genocide for etnic cleansing. So I presume you think these are synonims, right? And you are proposing etnic cleansing.




In the meantime, while Jews were fighting for their very lives, Jews throughout the Arab/Muslim world, who had suffered decades of Arab persecution, had to flee, many coming to Israel, even during the War! In other words, in a true, factual sense, Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Arab/Muslim world, not the other way around!

Again a lie. Most Jews migrated voluntarily, some Arab countries even forbade emigration! Of course they suffered from discrimination, but they have not been etnically cleansed.(there are a few exceptions)







The facts!? You are such a Jew-hating cretin! What facts, you dolt!

Facts, you know, not lies or insults.



In 1947, right before the first Arab war, there were about 809,100 Arabs in all of Palestine. In 1949, there were 160,000 Arabs still living in the country. Not a very good job of ethnic cleansing, was it, sleazeball!?

Etnic cleansing doesn't mean that all have to be cleansed. But most were.



Jews couldn't flee, but Arabs could, and they did, as any others would do during a total, all out war.

Some did, many others were forcefully evicted according to Benny Morris. So you think refugees of war have no right to return home when the war is finished?



Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state!!

The large majority had already been etnically cleansed. The few remaining were barely tolerated. (but never accepted or treated as equals, even last week the main Israeli Arab parties were barred from the elections...)




The fact that is denied most is that trolls like you are allowed to spread your uncivilized, sleazy Jew-hating garbage, without consequence.

There is only one sleazy, uncivilised and obviously very hateful and frustrated looser here, and that's you.




Your "facts" claim 700,000 "ethnically cleansed" Arabs

Not my facts, Benny Morris' facts. I provided the link. So what you're saying is that Benny Morris is a liar, right?





I don't know what your aim is, by spreading your antiSemitic garbage here within a Jewish forum. I will never understand why there are malicious, hate-filled people, like you, whose main purpose is to spread lies and hatred towards others.

The one spreading lies and hatred is you, I just try to have a civilised conversation, and always back up my claims, unlike you.

[Bheeshma]

You are the one advocating slaughtering christian missionaries! And you dare to lecture me about "sword and rampant killins". Fact is that Israel has been created trough the sword.

Yes I am lecturing a filthy communist bast**rd who is ready to sweep under the carpet the slaughter of legitimate citizens of the baltic nations by Red army, the slaughter of gypsy's by italian mobsters, the slaughter of syrian citizens by their dictator, ignores the deaths of thousands of palestinians caused by HAmas's human shield tactics and attempted genocide of the israeli citizens by arabs in 1948 on "swords and rampant killings"

Human compassion and neighbourly feeling for Hamas and hezzies. :rofl::rofl:. Only a commie could do that.

[Reffo]

Abbas clearly recognises Israel, not no, not as a Jewish state, because Palestinians live there as well. Would you recognise Australia and the US as "protestant white Aryan" states? Other people live in Australia and the US as well.OK thanks for confirming that Abbas does not want to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people (and I mean people as in the Jewish nation). And your analogy of Australia and America is not a valid one because until Israel came into existence, there was no single place on earth in which Jews could have self determination as Jews, they were a minority wherever they lived and as such they were subjected to persecution from time to time. And that included Jews in Arab countries as well. Israel was created as the only place on this earth where Jews would be a majority. That does not mean that everyone in Israel has to be Jewish, most Jews don't claim such a thing and indeed Israel does have 1 million Arabs as full Israeli citizens. But what most Jews do insist is that the country should aim to maintain a majority Jewish population, not by draconian measures but through natural birth and immigration policies.


Nonetheless, he added, Israel must discuss both its responsibility for the refugee problem and a practical right of return. In other words, Abbas wants a Palestinian Arab state free of Jews (he insists that the settlements must be dismantled) but on the other hand he expects Israel to absorb additional Palestinian Arabs. Isn't that like saying: "What's mine is mine but what your's is mine as well"?

What is wrong with the idea of a REAL two state solution in which one state would be the present Israel (including it's 1 million Arab citizens) living side by side with a Palestinian Arab state?


Because if he hadn't changed his mind about those two issues, then all he wants is to trick Israel into giving up land, building up a Palestinian army and then after a few years attack Israel again under the pretext that Israel has not met their "Right of Return" demand.

No, in your own link he said all issues need to be resolved at once, unlike during Oslo. He also favors a strong international force separating both countries. Many Palestinians also want Jerusalem to become a city secured by international UN-troops. They want their state to be secure. You continue to say that Abbas uses the two-state solution as a trick to attack Israel, without providing any proves of it. But I think the main problem is that YOU don't want to see international troops in East-Jerusalem, or on the green line. You think all of the area between the Jordan river and the sea should belong to Israel. And that's the biggest problem.What I said was (but you conveniently cut that bit out from my post) is that if Israel returns land without Fatah renouncing their so called right of return demand, then at some future time that could be a convenient PRETEXT for the Palestinians to launch another violent campaign against Israel. And please don't pretend that UN troops would stop that. History has shown that they are TOTALLY useless and they only do the bidding of their Arab masters...


All that tells me is that they are smarter than Hamas. They don't want to attack Israel while they are weak. How do we know that they are not just trying to trick Israel into giving up land? See my questions above.

see my answers above.You have answered nothing that I didn't effectively refute. The only way that people like me and most Israelis will be convinced that Abbas may be a viable peace partner is if:

He will renounce the right of return demand
He will recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people
He will agree to appropriate interim security measures



There will be genuine peace, if there's a genuine solution acceptable to the palestinians. As Abbas said, it doesn't mean the destruction of Israel, but a solution based on the UN-resolutions, with the green line as a border, and a just and equilibrated solution for the refugees, which will not fundamentally change the demographical balance of Israel or endanger it.I have listed what most Israelis expect of him in return for tangible assets like land. The things he need to do in return are intangible and would still represent a risk for Israel. Nothing less is acceptable..


As the senior American advisor on the Middle-East for the Bush and Clinton administrations I quoted above in this same thread pointed out, this wasn't a genuine or a serious offer.BS, we have been through this discussion before and the most senior of Clinton's Middle East Peace negotiator was Dennis Ross. He clearly blamed Arafat for not accepting Barak's 2000/2001 offer of a two state solution. In fact, even Clinton blamed Arafat.

From Bill Clinton's memoirs BBC Tuesday, 22 June, 2004 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3829107.stm)


His description of trying to get Yasser Arafat to sign up to an agreement at Camp David and later with the Israelis is perhaps the most useful part of the book historically.

He just cannot believe that the Palestinian leader turned down the offer of a state in almost all the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. He calls this refusal " a colossal mistake".


"Right before I left office, Arafat thanked me for all my efforts and told me what a great man I was. 'Mr Chairman,' I replied, 'I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me a failure.'"



To be continued..

[ItsMyJewty]

How about we all ignore this troll - it will only go away when no one responds to its posts.

Either that or you can all keep on banging your heads against a brick wall.

[Justcurious]

How about we all ignore this troll - it will only go away when no one responds to its posts.

Either that or you can all keep on banging your heads against a brick wall.

Somebody might think that there are lots of people doing just that against the wailing wall! :p

[KiwiWriter]

BS, we have been through this discussion before and the most senior of Clinton's Middle East Peace negotiator was Dennis Ross. He clearly blamed Arafat for not accepting Barak's 2000/2001 offer of a two state solution. In fact, even Clinton blamed Arafat.



I think at the time Clinton was quoted as saying (about Arafat) that he didn't miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Or something like that.

[KiwiWriter]

Who says they were trying to murder all Jews?



They did and they still do, take a look at the Hamas charter.

[CanDo]

... I'm a vicious racist, self-hating Jew, anti-semite and nazi because I want a two-state solution and peace.

You are not a racist, in the strictest terms, you are a Jew hater. You are not a self-hating Jew because you are not a Jew.

You ONLY want a two state solution because you want to make it impossible for Jews to live in peace. It doesn't take too much intelligence or knowledge to understand the hatred towards Jews, and other minorities, that is part of the mainstream Muslim culture. The persecution of Jews throughout the Muslim World, especially over the past 60 years, is obvious to all. Yet you champion the Muslim cause of setting up a Jew-hating, violent, terrorist run, Palestinian state that bisects through Israel. You are obviously not stupid, so you must be mentally challenged and antiSemitic (all part of the same mental illness).


Only the people like Cando who want to purge Israel and the occupied territories of any non-Jews are the good guys...

If that is the ONLY solution to finally getting peace for the good, peace-loving Jewish families of Israel, so be it.

Your solution would subject the Jews of Israel to another 60+ years of Arab violence, and possibly the extermination of all Jews by the Iranian terror state and it's proxies.

So...... who is the good guy, someone like me who wants Jews to live in peace, or someone like you, too willing to capitulate to terrorist demands, dooming the Jews of Israel forever?


And this forum is mainly visited by people who want peace (peace meaning no Palestinian subhumans remaining)

Yes. We want the Jews of Israel to live next to people that act like civilized humans, not vicious, blood-thristy subhumans who target Jewish children every day. They act like subhumans...... what would you have us call them?


... on the contrary to people like me who are vicious anti-semites because they don't think Israel has the right to "end Palestinian existance in Israel and Palestine" (it's not called ethnic cleansing or genocide, these terms are only reserved for Israeli, not for Arabs)...

You can't be that stupid, can you? It has got to be mental with you!

Jews want to end Palestinian terrorism existence in Israel and Palestine. If the Palestinians had a peaceful culture, Jews and Pals would live side by side in peace. But the Palestinians have one of the most foul, vile, vicious, hateful, murdering cultures on this planet.

But, in your clinically pure, mentally challenged mind, you only see black or white, no shades in between. You ignore the terrorist, subhuman nature of the Pals, and you ignore the peace-loving, disease curing, civilized nature of the Jews of Israel, and treat both sides exactly the same, as if Arab racism and religious intolerance never existed.

Are you a Jew? I doubt it. Even the most mentally challenged Jew would not be as obnoxious as you, and exhibit your naivety and ignorance.

[Reffo]

You ONLY want a two state solution because you want to make it impossible for Jews to live in peace.Correction! He only says he wants a two state solution but what he really means is an interim situation during which there would be two states before (according to his hope) the Palestinian Arab state would build itself up militarily and use old pretexts to attack Israel again and eventually make life so impossible for the Jewish state that they would cease to exist.

How do I know? Because Takeo expects Israel to give up land in return for NOTHING! No country has ever done that! The allies of WW2 insisted that Germany and Japan sign an unconditional surrender before they offered them some gradual autonomy and after several years total independence. I don't know why people like Takeo expect Israel to be any different. After all, Israel too faced an unprovoked attack in 1947/1948 and even in 1967. So why should Israel surrender land unconditionally before getting formal assurances that the old pretexts will not be used against it to start another war of extermination against them?

[CanDo]

... Many people on this forum think they are humanists, democrats, that they represent the western values. They are not, of course, they advocate etnic cleansing and other nazi ideals for example,

Your comment is typical of most rabid, antiSemites. Many antiSemites call themselves Jews or say that they are married to a Jew. You mentally challenged, deviates all behave the same. You know, full well, that to strike at the heart of Jews, just call them Nazis. You are a loathsome cretin.


... but it's difficult to expose them, as they are clever. But whenever I can, it's fun to confront them with their own inconsistencies and lies.

Typical of all low-life antiSemites. For some reason, it builds the ego of an antiSemite by going up against Jews. In your own sick mind, you always win against Jews. That is what makes you feel like a big, important jerk. No matter how much IsraelForum inflates your worthless, untalented ego, you are still going to be the same loser and worthless cretin forever. Nothing can ever change your subhuman heritage.

[CanDo]

Correction! He only says he wants a two state solution but what he really means is an interim situation during which there would be two states before (according to his hope) the Palestinian Arab state would build itself up militarily and use old pretexts to attack Israel again and eventually make life so impossible for the Jewish state that they would cease to exist.

That is exactly what would happen if self-centered, brainless antiSemites like takeo got their wish. But..... with Jews gone, who would cretins like takeo have to hate? Hindus? Armenians? Native American Indians?

The Takeos of the world would have to wait until the rabid, violent, subhuman Muslim culture turned it's hatred towards another group (probably India or the US), and then just jump on the hate bandwagon, where the takeos of this world are most comfortable.

[Reffo]

I think at the time Clinton was quoted as saying (about Arafat) that he didn't miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Or something like that. Actually, I think it was Aba Eban who said that ..

[Reffo]

Continued from #417


I have already asked you this: Don't you think that Hamas's behaviour is making it more likely that Israelis will vote for a strong leader like Netanyahu?

Of courseSo why are you wasting your time on this forum? Go and talk to your Hamas mates and explain to them the effects of their atrocities ...:scratch:


Assad senior exterminated islamist terrorists. Why are you suddenly sympathising with those islamists?Did I say I symphatise with Islamists? I am not the one who is yelling the place down because of the Israeli action in Gaza. It's you people who are in a frenzy about the inevitable results of a war that was forced on Israel by the Islamists.

Yet I find it strange that the likes of you, the UN and various Islamic nations ignore all other deaths other than the ones caused by Israel in a war. Even though about 750 of the 1000 dead were combatants but in the same breath, here you are dismissing the murder of 25,000 Islamists by Assad senior. That's clearly an example of double standard, don't you think Takeo?


The IRA also included the whole of Northern Ireland in their map. Yet still GB made peace with them, which was the right thing to do. If GB would instead have bombed Ireland to peaces, there would still be war and bloodshet going on in Ireland. Hamas will have to do some concessions if Israel in return dooes some concessions as well. There's no other way. It seems Hamas is there to stay, especially after this latest war, which brought them great popularity.Like I have been telling you Takeo, it takes two sides to make peace. Clearly, both the IRA and Britain wanted to make peace so they started talking about peace and eventually they reached a peaceful compromise.

Now, ask Hamas if they would want to talk directly face to face with Israel about peace. I think that you would find that they don't want to talk directly to Israelis because they don't want to recognize Israel. They did exhibit a willingness to have indirect talks (involving intermediaries) but not about peace. And all they want to talk about is what they WANT from Israel in exchange for a temporary cessation of violence against Israeli civilians.

That's not negotiations Takeo, that's EXTORTION! But Israel can play that game too, Israel too can offer a cessation of violence in return for the cessation of violence by Hamas. In fact, that's what is happening now!

[takeo]

Yes I am lecturing a filthy communist bast**rd who is ready to sweep under the carpet the slaughter of legitimate citizens of the baltic nations by Red army, the slaughter of gypsy's by italian mobsters, the slaughter of syrian citizens by their dictator, ignores the deaths of thousands of palestinians caused by HAmas's human shield tactics and attempted genocide of the israeli citizens by arabs in 1948 on "swords and rampant killings"

Human compassion and neighbourly feeling for Hamas and hezzies. :rofl::rofl:. Only a commie could do that.

You are a Hindu-nationalist who wants to slaughter christians in India. (just notice that noone on this forum criticised him for doing so!). You fit well on this forum. You also defend nazi-Baltics against the red army. (only nazi-Baltics have been sent to Siberia, not innocent Balts).

[takeo]

They did and they still do, take a look at the Hamas charter.

i didn't find it, can you help me out? They want to end the israeli state, didn't say they want to kill all Jews. You that's the same? OK, but in that case, calling for an end to the PA and etnic cleansing of Palestinians is the same as genocide as well. You can't have it both ways...

[Madeline]

You are a Hindu-nationalist who wants to slaughter christians in India. (just notice that noone on this forum criticised him for doing so!). You fit well on this forum. You also defend nazi-Baltics against the red army. (only nazi-Baltics have been sent to Siberia, not innocent Balts).

Takeo, you are on this forum too. Why, if we are all so evil?
And please, all, let's quit the name calling. It is not necessary in a debate to be so downright hateful. It is very unbecoming.
Sorry mods, if I overstep my bounds.
Sorry, if I have called anyone names.

[Madeline]

i didn't find it, can you help me out? They want to end the israeli state, didn't say they want to kill all Jews. You that's the same? OK, but in that case, calling for an end to the PA and etnic cleansing of Palestinians is the same as genocide as well. You can't have it both ways...

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others." (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

[CanDo]

... They want to end the israeli state, didn't say they want to kill all Jews.

A brain-dead radical, racist like you would wait until all Jews were dead, and then find someway to blame Jews, as you always do.

The Arabs have been targeting Jewish civilians for 60+ years. Only a brain-dead Jew hater, like you, would ignore that fact, and that Jews have lived in fear of the Arabs for 60+ years.


... calling for an end to the PA and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is the same as genocide as well. You can't have it both ways...

Forcing all Arabs/Muslims from all of Jewish land, including the West Bank, and Gaza, is the same as Genocide?!

What an idiot! A fool! Forcing people to move someplace else is the same as killing them???

The only way for your brain to become that defective is through sniffing glue, or sniffing drain cleaner, unless your have been like that since birth (which is possible! :D )

[takeo]

Reffo



OK thanks for confirming that Abbas does not want to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people (and I mean people as in the Jewish nation).

No!
In your own link he said that not all 5 million refugees can return to Israel. He said for most of the refugees another solution needs to be found. Abbas is actually very reasonable. He gives up the rights of millions of people who have been cleansed from their homes, lost all their possessions and still live in refugee camps. And he recognises that Israel should have a jewish majority. Of course there should be compensation. You have to respect and cherish this man, because the alternative, Hamas, would be much worse. But, since you don't want to give up any "Holy parts of Israel", I think you rather prefere Hamas.








And your analogy of Australia and America is not a valid one because until Israel came into existence, there was no single place on earth in which Jews could have self determination as Jews, they were a minority wherever they lived and as such they were subjected to persecution from time to time. And that included Jews in Arab countries as well. Israel was created as the only place on this earth where Jews would be a majority.

So? So you think any Jew living in Germany has to recognise germany as a "christian German" state, Holland has te become a "Dutch christian white state"? I'm sure on stormfront they would completely agree with you.





That does not mean that everyone in Israel has to be Jewish, most Jews don't claim such a thing and indeed Israel does have 1 million Arabs as full Israeli citizens. But what most Jews do insist is that the country should aim to maintain a majority Jewish population, not by draconian measures but through natural birth and immigration policies.

Yes, this is what Abbas recognises as well.




In other words, Abbas wants a Palestinian Arab state free of Jews (he insists that the settlements must be dismantled)

Because they are illegal migrants. According to the Geneva conventions it's illegal to export your own population to occupied territory. israel has been repeatedly condamned for doing so. Israeli Arabs are no illegal settlers, they live there since many generations. But, if some settlers want to remain, commit themselves to live in peaceful relations with their neighbours, and accept Palestinian law, than I see no reason why they couldn't stay;





but on the other hand he expects Israel to absorb additional Palestinian Arabs. Isn't that like saying: "What's mine is mine but what your's is mine as well"?

Well, there are UN-resolutions supporting his claim. He doesn't want any part of Israel, but a solution for the millions of refugees, who are Palestinians as well.





What is wrong with the idea of a [B]REAL two state solution in which one state would be the present Israel (including it's 1 million Arab citizens) living side by side with a Palestinian Arab state?

Nothing wrong, but how would you resolve the refugee problem?




What I said was (but you conveniently cut that bit out from my post) is that if Israel returns land without Fatah renouncing their so called right of return demand, then at some future time that could be a convenient PRETEXT for the Palestinians to launch another violent campaign against Israel. And please don't pretend that UN troops would stop that. History has shown that they are TOTALLY useless and they only do the bidding of their Arab masters...

that's why the refugee-problem need be adressed as well. As Abbas and Arafat said, taking into consideration Israel's demographical concerns.
Those returning would become israeli citizens, those going to palestine would become Palestinians, and most would probably start a new life in a western country with the compensation Israel gives them for their lost properties.
UN-troops are not totally useless, how many Hezbollah-rockets have been fired into Israel since the UN-troops are there (2006)? Even today when Israel murdered more than 1000 Palestinians in Gaza, Hezbollah didn't do anything. UN-troops on the border is the way to go. Of course Eretz-israel fanatics would object to that.





You have answered nothing that I didn't effectively refute. The only way that people like me and most Israelis will be convinced that Abbas may be a viable peace partner is if:

He will renounce the right of return demand

So he must just abandon those 5 million refugees? I don't think so. A solution is necessary for this, and one without endangering Israeli demographic concern.







He will recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people

He will recognise Israel and garantee it's security.





He will agree to appropriate interim security measures


What do you mean? Yes he has to safeguard Israeli security, and the border must be secure. However Palestine should also be completely free, no Israeli soldiers remaining, and free international borders with Jordan and Egypt. If not, Palestine wouldn't be a country, but a Bantustan.






I have listed what most Israelis expect of him in return for tangible assets like land. The things he need to do in return are intangible and would still represent a risk for Israel. Nothing less is acceptable..

Land for enduring peace, that's it.

Besides, Israel can't give up anything that doesn't belong to them. Not a single state recognises Israeli soveriegnty over these territories. israel stops its act of war (occupation) in return Palestinians stop their acts of war.
Both sign a peace-treaty. that's it.






BS, we have been through this discussion before and the most senior of Clinton's Middle East Peace negotiator was Dennis Ross. He clearly blamed Arafat for not accepting Barak's 2000/2001 offer of a two state solution. In fact, even Clinton blamed Arafat.

From Bill Clinton's memoirs BBC Tuesday, 22 June, 2004 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3829107.stm)

In the quote I gave (newsweek) a senior American advisor on the Middle-East clearly said that Clinton and Barak were one and the same, and that the proposal hasn't been talked trough with the Palestinians. The US wasn't a neutral negociator in this. He said that's the reason why it failed.

[takeo]

Cando, you obviously need to see a shrink. This level of exaggerated hatred, racis, irrationalism, extremism, intolerance, calls for violence and human rights abuses, isn't sane anymore.
If you were in charge, WWIII would start tomorrow.

[takeo]

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others." (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

Yes, it wants to whipe Israel off the map, but didn't say "kill all jews", right? Just like cando and other extremists say "transfer of the entire population", they don't say "kill all Palestinians".

Anyway, of course I think Hamas is a problem, just like parties in Israel which don't recognise the right of Palestinians to have their own state. But peace will be necessary. Hamas will have to change its charter, it will only do so if Israel offers genuine peace and starts real negociations instead of killing them. Anyway, if Israel offers genuine peace, Hamas will be finished, since in that case most Palestinians will support Abbas. If Israel refuses to offer genuine peace, than Palestinians will choose for the armed struggle, and start another Intifadeh. And that's their right.

[takeo]

A brain-dead radical, racist like you would wait until all Jews were dead, and then find someway to blame Jews, as you always do.

The Arabs have been targeting Jewish civilians for 60+ years. Only a brain-dead Jew hater, like you, would ignore that fact, and that Jews have lived in fear of the Arabs for 60+ years.



Forcing all Arabs/Muslims from all of Jewish land, including the West Bank, and Gaza, is the same as Genocide?!

What an idiot! A fool! Forcing people to move someplace else is the same as killing them???

The only way for your brain to become that defective is through sniffing glue, or sniffing drain cleaner, unless your have been like that since birth (which is possible! :D )

A brain-dead radical, racist like you would wait until all Arabs were dead, and then find someway to blame Arabs, as you always do.

Israel has been targeting Palestinian civilians civilians for 60+ years. Only a brain-dead Arab hater, like you, would ignore that fact, and that Palestinians have lived in fear of Israel for 60+ years.
What you want is to whipe out Palestine and Palestinians from the map.
Forcing to move an entire people to somewhere else strongly reminds me about WWII. It doesn't remind me of any western values like human rights, equal rights for all races and religions, etc.
AT ALL. And if you would openly propose that in France you would be prosecuted by law.

[CanDo]

Cando, you obviously need to see a shrink. This level of exaggerated hatred, racis, irrationalism, extremism, intolerance, calls for violence and human rights abuses, isn't sane anymore.
If you were in charge, WWIII would start tomorrow.

That's your response to my post? Whining and sniveling? :rolleyes:

You couldn't answer my points, so you revert to childish, idiotic statements, just like the previous mindless posts that you scatter around this Jewish Forum.

You equated the removal of all Arabs from Jewish land with Genocide. I called you out because that is obviously brain-dead stupid. One is forcing Arabs to move, and the other is killing them.

And then, all you could come back with is whining and sniveling and meaningless insults. At least when I call you names, like idiot and brain-dead, I back it up with FACTS! :stick:

[takeo]

How about we all ignore this troll - it will only go away when no one responds to its posts.

Either that or you can all keep on banging your heads against a brick wall.

Maybe you can ban me.

[Madeline]

Yes, it wants to whipe Israel off the map, but didn't say "kill all jews", right?
Anyway, of course I think Hamas is a problem, just like parties in Israel which don't recognise the right of Palestinians to have their own state. But peace will be necessary. Hamas will have to change its charter, it will only do so if Israel offers genuine peace and starts real negociations instead of killing them. Anyway, if Israel offers genuine peace, Hamas will be finished, since in that case most Palestinians will support Abbas. If Israel refuses to offer genuine peace, than Palestinians will choose for the armed struggle, and start another Intifadeh. And that's their right.

Oh boy, you just stuck your foot deep into your mouth.
BTW, do you really think that wiping Israel off the map means leaving any Jew alive?
How about the 'sprinkling water' part? Do you think they go around and actually sprinkle water? Please don't tell me that you are really that naive.

[CanDo]

... Israel has been targeting Palestinian civilians civilians for 60+ years.

Your play on my own words just proves that you have problems coming up with your own original thought. Kinda shows that I am right about you being brain-dead.

You say that Israel targets civilians for 60+ years!? That is obviously a very stupid remark on your part. If true, Israel could have killed Palestinians crossing the border, to work in Israel, or Israel could have killed the many Palestinian civilians that have been treated in Jewish hospitals, or Israel could have attacked Palestinians marching through the streets, calling for the deaths of Jews. In fact, Israel doesn't even target the hostile Arab terrorists that are being held in Israeli jails, and even goes so far as releasing them.

Yet, if a Jewish civilian crosses into Palestinian territory, we all know what usually happens to him.

You are obnoxious, vile and braindead, and now you have started sniveling and whining. Sadly, those are your better character traits! :rock:

[takeo]

I think people like Obama will change the situation and force Israel to peace. I hope extremists like you people will never grap power anywhere. When Netanyahu comes to power, than you people will grap power in Israel. very dangerous, and there will be certain frictions with the US.

[CanDo]

BTW, do you (takeo) really think that wiping Israel off the map means leaving any Jew alive?

Takeo condemns himself with his own naive, idiotic, brain-dead words. But..... as with all defective antiSemites, he will just continue to whine, and constantly post meaningless, confused drivel.

takeo said that wiping Israel off the map (probably the result of nuclear weapons) is not going to wipe out the Jewish population!? What an embarrassing idiot! :rofl:

[CanDo]

I think people like Obama will change the situation and force Israel to peace.

So...... you would want to force Israel to accept borders which it cannot possibly defend, leaving the Jewish population exposed to bigger and more violent attacks from obvious enemies.

If we can learn from history, at all, you are, in fact, calling for the deaths of countless Jews. Is that your type of Jew-hating peace? All Jews dead, or more misery and destruction against the Jews of Israel?

What an obnoxious, irritating, unknowledgeable fool.

[CanDo]

BTW, do you (takeo) really think that wiping Israel off the map means leaving any Jew alive? ... Please don't tell me that you are really that naive.

One can't really have a decent, rational conversation with people like takeo. His reasoning powers are at sub-normal levels. This isn't an insult. We all have varying levels of reasoning powers, whether learned, or inherited. That is why some are doctors, lawyers, programmers, planners, managers, and others, like takeo, have less challenging jobs, like pizza makers, or delivery boys.

If takeo says something, his mind really believes it to be true, not matter how many facts are presented. You'll never convince takeo that black isn't white, if takeo really believes that black is white. The important thing is, not whether or not we can change takeo's twisted mind, but whether or not we allow his lies and misrepresentations to go unchallenged.

[Madeline]

I like this woman's style...


http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/respect_for_life_begins_at_hom.html


"We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir, 1957

While on a recent vacation, my thirteen-year-old son stepped onto the railing of a bridge and prepared to bungee jump into a 200-foot abyss. (Actually it was just a canyon -- to me it looked very much like an abyss.) I watched with abject terror. But my husband had made the leap just before my son, so I could not object that the leap was unsafe and that I would not allow my son to enjoy the same experience.

Much to my elation and relief, my son decided not to jump. He walked over to me with outstretched arms, and whispered, "It's just not worth it, life is too short."

And while I believe that fear played a role in his decision to not take the plunge, what enabled him to choose to step away from the precipice was his confidence that his parents would be waiting with open arms and would not judge his decision. I was overwhelmed with pride that my son understood the value of his life and that he turned to God for strength in dealing with his fear and for assistance in making his decision.

Upon arriving back to our hotel, I proceeded to check the internet for the latest news and world events. The first story that caught my eye was the threat by Hamas of renewed suicide attacks in Israel. The dichotomy of my experience with my son earlier in the day could not have been more profound. Children raised in a civilized society are taught to love life and fear death while terrorists and suicide bombers are taught from a young age to live just long enough to create as much death and destruction as possible, including their own.

I began to wonder what it is that makes the parents of these suicide bombers send off their children with bombs strapped to their chests. Do they watch in horror as I did earlier in the day at a mere bungee jump? Do they love their children, and if so, upon what is that love conditioned? Now that Saddam Hussein is no longer around to wire $25,000 in cash to the parents of every Palestinian suicide bomber, what is their motivation for teaching their children such hate?

I wondered what happens when these young "patriots" panic and decide to save themselves from leaping into the murderous abyss to which their lives have been destined. Are their parents waiting for them with open arms of love and support? Are their parents relieved and elated or are they embarrassed and angry?

Andrew G. Botsom wrote in depth on these pages about Hamas's genocidal Jew-hatred and made it clear that martyrdom is not a foreign concept in the Arab world. Martyrdom is something with which Israelis have become all too familiar. But, as a mother, I have a difficult time understanding how one rears her children only to send them off to kill themselves in the name of God.

Clearly a society, whose ideology results in the creation of human bombs, is not one in which love, respect, and pride are relevant. From infancy, Palestinian children are treated to television shows depicting Israelis killing the Arab equivalent of a Mickey Mouse -- a cartoon character that glorifies martyrdom and jihad against Israel. And how can we forget the images, as the Twin Towers fell on 9/11, of Palestinian children cheering in the streets with rifles raised in the air?

It is a popular argument that suicide bombers kill because their lives are desolate. I don't buy it. The demographics of the al Qaeda terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks on the United States certainly suggest otherwise.

Gaza is the perfect example of the choices that the Palestinians have made regarding their destiny. Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas and what they received in return was a city mutated into a terrorist training camp. This was the people's choice. They voted for death and destruction rather than hope and prosperity.

Furthermore, it is not simply the lives of Jews and Americans that are considered irrelevant and expendable to these terrorists, but those of their fellow Arabs as well. Arab ideology teaches its population that it is commendable and heroic to kill oneself in the process of killing Israelis and infidels. Saddam Hussein turned his ire on his own population and gassed thousands of Kurds.

And were Iran to adhere to its promise to wipe Israel off the face of the map, the death of millions of Arabs throughout the territory would also result. David Solway noted in Frontpage Magazine:

"Even the Palestinians themselves do not seem to have caught on, either because what we are dealing with is a veritable suicide culture that can tolerate its own extinction or, to put it bluntly, with a people too stupefied by hatred and fanaticism to realize that, under these circumstances, their very existence is no less at risk than Israel's. The fact remains that they have been sold out by their Arab brothers and Western enablers who are perfectly indifferent to the devastation Palestinians would suffer should Iran follow through on its threat to unleash nuclear havoc on Israel."

Much has been written regarding the "disproportionate" response by Israel to the constant barrage of rockets by Hamas upon its civilian population. Again, the dichotomy is astounding. Hamas plants its arsenals of bombs and launching pads in civilian neighborhoods and buildings without a care for the people it was elected to protect. Israel calls ahead to warn of bombings, despite losing the element of surprise, in the hopes of ensuring as minimal a loss of life as possible.

In Israel, America, and the rest of the civilized world, governmental, educational and religious institutions teach respect for humans in life as well as in death. However, life's first lessons begin in the home and are instilled by parents. Parents make the decision where to education their children, who to elect as their government representatives, and most importantly, what values they wish to inspire in their offspring -- the future of the world.

The children of Palestinians, reared by religious fanatics who only believe in Israel's annihilation and brainwashed by the Hamas "government," are destined to kill and destroy. Herein lays the problem for Israel. While my son prays to God and asks for his life to be prolonged, Palestinian children pray to a God that instructs them that death is noble if it involves killing Jews.

Golda Meir once said, "Pessimism is a luxury that a Jew can never allow himself." I believe that is true for Israeli Jews living with the threat of a Palestinian mother willing to lead her child to the edge of a homicidal abyss and awarding him with a final push. Sorrowfully, as an American Jew, I am feeling extremely pessimistic that the Palestinian people are capable of living peacefully, side by side, with Israelis at any time in the near future.

Lauri B. Regan is an attorney at a global law firm based in New York City.

[Reffo]

OK thanks for confirming that Abbas does not want to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people (and I mean people as in the Jewish nation).

No!
In your own link he said that not all 5 million refugees can return to Israel...But that's not what we are talking about here. I gave you a link which clearly showed that Abbas does not want to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people and you already admitted that.


And your analogy of Australia and America is not a valid one because until Israel came into existence, there was no single place on earth in which Jews could have self determination as Jews, they were a minority wherever they lived and as such they were subjected to persecution from time to time. And that included Jews in Arab countries as well. Israel was created as the only place on this earth where Jews would be a majority.

So? So you think any Jew living in Germany has to recognise germany as a "christian German" state, Holland has te become a "Dutch christian white state"? I'm sure on stormfront they would completely agree with you.Your analogy clearly does not apply. Why? Because Jews never denied that Germany is a Christian German state (or ditto for the Dutch state). Nor did they wage 60 years of war against Germany and the Dutch based on that pretext, However, the Palestinian Arabs have waged more than 60 years of war against Israel during which they avowed to "Drive the Jews into the sea" purely because the didn't want a state for the Jews in the Middle East and in order to make ALL of Palestine Arab.

That's why NOW, if they really want peace, they clearly have to show that they recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people.


In other words, Abbas wants a Palestinian Arab state free of Jews (he insists that the settlements must be dismantled)

Because they are illegal migrants. According to the Geneva conventions it's illegal to export your own population to occupied territory. israel has been repeatedly condamned for doing so. Israeli Arabs are no illegal settlers, they live there since many generations. But, if some settlers want to remain, commit themselves to live in peaceful relations with their neighbours, and accept Palestinian law, than I see no reason why they couldn't stay;I hope that Abbas and Fatah will not continue this kind of crappy argument because if, like you, they will, then there will never be peace!

The fact is that Jews too lived in Palestine for many generations, some even longer than any Arab. It is also true that Jews were in the majority in places like Jerusalem for many generations, yet the Palestinian Arabs insist that they want East Jerusalem. So, either Abbas and his Fatah will negotiate in good faith and compromise as Israel has, or one would be forced to conclude that Fatah has the same aims as Hamas but different methods to try and achieve those aims. Read what I said before..


but on the other hand he expects Israel to absorb additional Palestinian Arabs. [b]Isn't that like saying: "What's mine is mine but what your's is mine as well"?

Well, there are UN-resolutions supporting his claim. He doesn't want any part of Israel, but a solution for the millions of refugees, who are Palestinians as well.Leave the UN out of it, they discredited themselves sufficiently many times over. And please don't try to intimate that Israel is the only one to want to ignore the UN with it's inbuilt automatic majority support for the Arabs because the Arabs too have ignored the UN in 1948 when they did not have a majority support when they attacked the new state of Israel which the UN declared as a new independent state.


What is wrong with the idea of a REAL two state solution in which one state would be the present Israel (including it's 1 million Arab citizens) living side by side with a Palestinian Arab state?

Nothing wrong, but how would you resolve the refugee problem?Me? Personally? I would insist that the 700,000 or so Jewish refugees from Arab countries too should be compensated, not only the Palestinian Arab refugees. However, Israel to date did not seem to insist on that while they agreed to the idea of compensating the Arab refugees. Go figure, they seem to want to go out of their way to ncompromise.

Now here is a question to you Takeo: Do you think that the Arabs too should compensate the Jewish refugees?


that's why the refugee-problem need be adressed as well. As Abbas and Arafat said, taking into consideration Israel's demographical concerns.Yes, it needs to be addressed although it should have been addressed many years ago by the Arabs themselves in the same way that Israel took care of Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Nevertheless, Israel for the sake of real peace has indicated a willingness to address the question of the Arab refugees but it has not accepted the idea that the Arabs will dictate the terms. Compromise YES but NO DICTATES! Why? Because the Arab people were NOT the only ones wronged, the Israeli people too were wronged by the war that was started against them many years ago by the fascist racist Arab leaders of yesteryear.


UN-troops are not totally useless, how many Hezbollah-rockets have been fired into Israel since the UN-troops are there (2006)? Even today when Israel murdered more than 1000 Palestinians in Gaza, Hezbollah didn't do anything. UN-troops on the border is the way to go. Of course Eretz-israel fanatics would object to that.I am glad that you admit that they ARE useless (I won't insist on the word "TOTAL" even though I do believe I should :D). Yes, only a few rockets have been fired at Israel since 2006 but let me assure you that it wasn't because of the UN, it was because Hezbollah does not yet want to pay the same or worse consequences that they had to pay for their aggression of 2006. But tell me this, Takeo, how come the UN allowed Hezbollah to rearm itself, I thought that one of the jobs of the UN was to stop that? Oh, and I have no doubt that if one day Hezbollah would decide that they want to get rid of the UN from South Lebanon, they [the UN] will just pack their belongings like good children and will move out. That's exactly what they did in 1967 when Nasser ordered the UN peace keepers to leave Sinai. And that of course allowed Nasser to start a blockade against Israel which in turn led to the 1967 war. I'll say it again, the UN WAS useless and IT IS useless. The only thing that they are good at nowdays is to blame Israel for defending itself!

[Reffo]

Erased Duplicate Post

[Reffo]

You have answered nothing that I didn't effectively refute. The only way that people like me and most Israelis will be convinced that Abbas may be a viable peace partner is if:
He will renounce the right of return demand

So he must just abandon those 5 million refugees? I don't think so. A solution is necessary for this, and one without endangering Israeli demographic concern.That's not what I said, read what I actually said. And again, whatever they agree on in the end, the Palestinian Arabs will HAVE TO agree to FORMALLY RENOUNCE their so called right of return. Is Abbas willing to do that now?


He will recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people

He will recognise Israel and garantee it's security.That's not enough (for the reasons that I've already gave above). If Abbas/Fatah want land, they have to FORMALLY RECOGNIZE Israel as a state for the Jewish people (nation).


He will agree to appropriate interim security measures

What do you mean? Yes he has to safeguard Israeli security, and the border must be secure. However Palestine should also be completely free, no Israeli soldiers remaining, and free international borders with Jordan and Egypt. If not, Palestine wouldn't be a country, but a Bantustan.Cut the Bhantustan BS, that was always a figment of the imaginations of Arab propagandists such as yourself.

What I mean is demilitarisation and whatever else could be negotiated to minimise the prospects of attacks against Israel and Israelis.


I have listed what most Israelis expect of him in return for tangible assets like land. The things he need to do in return are intangible and would still represent a risk for Israel. Nothing less is acceptable..

Land for enduring peace, that's it.And appropriate safeguards to ensure that the promise of "enduring peace" would be more than just empty words.


Besides, Israel can't give up anything that doesn't belong to them. Not a single state recognises Israeli soveriegnty over these territories. israel stops its act of war (occupation) in return Palestinians stop their acts of war. Yes it can until the Arabs meet it's demands too. Israel cannot be expected to give up land which it captured in a war of extermination that the Arabs started against Israel for nothing in return.

The allies (but not your Russians) ceased their occupation of Germany and Japan only many years after the end of the war and only after both those countries signed an UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER!


BS, we have been through this discussion before and the most senior of Clinton's Middle East Peace negotiator was Dennis Ross. He clearly blamed Arafat for not accepting Barak's 2000/2001 offer of a two state solution. In fact, even Clinton blamed Arafat.

From Bill Clinton's memoirs BBC Tuesday, 22 June, 2004 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3829107.stm)

In the quote I gave (newsweek) a senior American advisor on the Middle-East clearly said that Clinton and Barak were one and the same, and that the proposal hasn't been talked trough with the Palestinians. The US wasn't a neutral negociator in this. He said that's the reason why it failed.First of all, you did not give any quote, name or link, please do so now.

Secondly, the word of your un-named American advisor is certainly NOT more credible than the word of Clinton or his chief Middle East negotiator Dennis Ross.

Now, enough of this repetitive BS, we have discussed this before ad nauseum, I don't intend to repeat it all here again. Those who are interested can go to the thread below and follow the whole boring discussion, if they want to:

Israel Forum

[Madeline]

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced Saturday, folllwing a Security Cabinent vote in favor of a cease-fire, said that the goals of Israel's offensive in Gaza had been achieved.

Israel has no immediate plans to withdraw troops from Gaza, but the cease-fire likely will entail the end of Israeli attacks on Hamas now that the militant Palestinian group appears to have been disabled to the point that there is less of a threat of rocket attacks on southern Israel.

Olmert said in a televised address that Israel's "goals have been achieved, and even more." Fghting will stop at 2 a.m. local time (7 p.m. EST) but Israel will keep troops on the ground for the time being, Olmert said.

But Hamas leaders have repeated that it will not respect any cease-fire as long as Israel remains inside Gaza.

More than 1,100 Palestinians have been killed in the three weeks of violence, according to Palestinian and U.N. officials. Thirteen Israelis have also died.

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said Saturday that a unilateral cease-fire should be accompanied by a timetable for withdrawal, and a Hamas spokesman said the group would not stop fighting until Israel is out of Gaza.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480367,00.html

[KiwiWriter]

i didn't find it, can you help me out? They want to end the israeli state, didn't say they want to kill all Jews. You that's the same? OK, but in that case, calling for an end to the PA and etnic cleansing of Palestinians is the same as genocide as well. You can't have it both ways...

I found it so here you go:

Hamas Principles
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Here is the link to the source if you'd like to do some further bed time reading:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

[Y. Shulamith]

What BS......killing Israel, the Israeli's, the Israeli State, the Zionists, whatever, is a call for genocide.....

[KiwiWriter]

Yes, it wants to whipe Israel off the map, but didn't say "kill all jews", right? Just like cando and other extremists say "transfer of the entire population", they don't say "kill all Palestinians".


From Collins Concise Dictionary & Thesaurus:

Obliterate - blot out, efface, destroy completely.

Thesaurus suggestions of alternatives; annihilate, cancel, wipe off the face of the earth, wipe out.

When "obliterate" is used the person using the word usually isn't thinking about transferring populations.

How also do you explain statements such as "driving the jews into the sea" ? If they are referring to "transfer of entire population" perhaps a more appropriate phrase would be "we're going to give them one way tickets to another country?

[Y. Shulamith]

From Collins Concise Dictionary & Thesaurus:

Obliterate - blot out, efface, destroy completely.

Thesaurus suggestions of alternatives; annihilate, cancel, wipe off the face of the earth, wipe out.

When "obliterate" is used the person using the word usually isn't thinking about transferring populations.

How also do you explain statements such as "driving the jews into the sea" ? If they are referring to "transfer of entire population" perhaps a more appropriate phrase would be "we're going to give them one way tickets to another country?

Ya know what? I don't want to even dignify your posts with an answer, go google it yourself, if you are so interested to find out who uttered those words and when....you are a craven BS artist and a tool.:lol:

[KiwiWriter]

Anyway, of course I think Hamas is a problem, just like parties in Israel which don't recognise the right of Palestinians to have their own state. But peace will be necessary. Hamas will have to change its charter, it will only do so if Israel offers genuine peace and starts real negociations instead of killing them. Anyway, if Israel offers genuine peace, Hamas will be finished, since in that case most Palestinians will support Abbas. If Israel refuses to offer genuine peace, than Palestinians will choose for the armed struggle, and start another Intifadeh. And that's their right.


Israel's original withdrawl from Gaza was an offer of peace and what did they get for it? Rockets fired further into their country. From my humble observations it's pretty obvious Hamas has no intention of changing its charter.

[Y. Shulamith]

Arguing semantics, lin lieu of just realizing that you didn't win an argument is positively gormless stupidity.

I don't, and most civilized people don't give a damn what the charter, beliefs and objectives of a terrorist organization really are, just to clue you in for a little reality check!!

[KiwiWriter]

Ya know what? I don't want to even dignify your posts with an answer, go google it yourself, if you are so interested to find out who uttered those words and when....you are a craven BS artist and a tool.:lol:


Okay what you quoted in the above was for the benifit of Takeo who seems to be having a slight problem with the meaning and usage of english words.

[Madeline]

Arguing semantics, lin lieu of just realizing that you didn't win an argument is positively gormless stupidity.

I don't, and most civilized people don't give a damn what the charter, beliefs and objectives of a terrorist organization really are, just to clue you in for a little reality check!!
Hey there. I did quote the Hamas Charter as well to make a point against what takeo was saying. Please reread the context in which it was made. You will see, this is a misunderstanding.

[KiwiWriter]

Hey there. I did quote the Hamas Charter as well to make a point against what takeo was saying. Please reread the context in which it was made. You will see, this is a misunderstanding.

Thankyou. Also quoting verbatum from collins dictionary was case of Kiwi sarcasm. (Quite similar to British sarcasm).

[Y. Shulamith]

Sorry about the misunderstanding......I get too worked up, sometimes.

[Madeline]

Sorry about the misunderstanding......I get too worked up, sometimes.

So do we, and we love you anyways.;)

[KiwiWriter]

Sorry about the misunderstanding......I get too worked up, sometimes.

Sorry about living in what seems to be the worst time zone in the world and therefore having to play catch up with the messages. At least we do get to have the big millenium parties first though :D

[Mediocrates]

Israel Announces End to 3-Week Defensive Operation to Stop Hamas Terror Campaign


U.S., Israel Sign Memorandum of Understanding on Ceasefire
Sen. Clinton Deplores Indoctrination of Palestinian Children and Hamas’ Use of Children as Human Shields
Iran-backed Hamas Fires at Israeli Troops from Civilian-Filled UNRWA Compound


Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced Saturday night (Jan. 17) in Jerusalem that Israel would agree to a ceasefire with Iran-backed Hamas in Gaza. Olmert’s speech came immediately after Israel’s cabinet voted to end Israel’s 22-day defensive operation to stop Hamas’s years-long campaign to kill and injure Israeli civilians. [1]


The defensive operation was designed to dismantle the infrastructure of Hamas, which has fired more than 10,000 rockets, mortars and missiles at Israel since 2001. [2] Hamas’s terror campaign is backed by the Islamic Republic of Iran, the world’s largest state sponsor of terrorism and a chief sponsor of Palestinian terrorism. It provides Hamas about $20 million -$30 million to Hamas annually and also trains Hamas operatives in Iran and Syria. [3]


Yesterday (Jan. 16), Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni traveled to Washington, D.C to sign a “Memorandum of Understanding� with the United States to prevent Hamas and other terrorist groups from smuggling weapons into Gaza through Egypt. The memorandum commits U.S. "resources, wherewithal and technology necessary in order to fulfill our part of the bargain� and is designed to inhibit Hamas’s ability to rearm, State Department Spokesman Sean McCormack said. [4]


Throughout the operation, Israel ensured daily deliveries of food, medicine and other humanitarian aid into Gaza. During the daily ceasefire Israel instituted to facilitate the deliveries, Hamas continued to fire at Israel. [5]


Said Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi, founder & president of The Israel Project, "We at The Israel Project greatly admire the decision by Israel to cease its military activities in Gaza, even without obtaining any agreement from the terrorists of Hamas. This simply reaffirms that Israel remains taking the high moral ground -- seeking only peace with its neighbors and willing to take risks for peace, but unable to fail to retaliate against terrorists, armed and trained by Iran, who intentionally send rockets with the purpose of killing innocent Israeli civilians.


"We share the Prime Minister's empathy for the innocent deaths and casualties of Israelis and Gazans -- all of them victims of Hamas, which values death over life, even the death of its own people. And as Americans we celebrate our government's -- and governments in Europe and in Egypt -- commitment to halt the supply of terrorist weapons from Iran into Gaza."

[Mediocrates]

Following is the text of Olmert’s speech, delivered Jan. 17 at 3:52 p.m. EST: [6]


Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s Statement at the Press Conference on January 17, 2009
(translated from Hebrew)


Citizens of Israel,


Exactly three weeks ago as the Sabbath ended, we sat here before you – my friend Ehud Barak, the Vice Prime Minister Tzipi Livni and myself – and detailed the considerations and goals which guided us in launching a military operation in the Gaza Strip. Today, we face you again and can say that the conditions have been created so that our targets, as defined when we launched the operation, have been fully achieved, and more so:


* Hamas was badly stricken, both in terms of its military capabilities and in the infrastructure of its regime. Its leaders are in hiding. Many of its members have been killed. The factories in which its missiles were manufactured have been destroyed. The smuggling routes, through dozens of tunnels, have been bombed. The Hamas’s capabilities for conveying weapons within the Gaza Strip have been damaged. The scope of missile fire directed at the State of Israel has been reduced. The areas from which most of the missiles were launched are under the control of IDF forces. The estimate of all the security services is that the Hamas’s capabilities have been struck a heavy blow which will harm its ability to rule and its military capabilities for some time.
* The IDF and the Israel Security Agency have succeeded in conducting an outstanding operation, utilizing all the elements of Israel’s force – on land, at sea and in the air. The military operation was characterized by determination, sophistication, courage and an impressive ability in intelligence and operations, which led to significant and numerous achievements. The current campaign proved again Israel’s force and strengthened its deterrence capability vis-ÃÂ-vis those who threaten us.

* The reserves soldiers, who are the foundation for the IDF’s strength, proved that the spirit of volunteerism and a willingness to sacrifice still very much exist. These forces were made ready in a thorough manner, equipped with all they needed and thus could demonstrate their professionalism and fierceness of spirit.

* During all the days of fighting, the Israeli home front demonstrated its strength, despite hundreds of rockets and mortar shells indiscriminately fired at a population which numbers one million residents; it was the home front that created an unshakable foundation which strengthened us and gave us the ability to continue fighting. Two years of preparation on the home front proved that we learned our lessons and were properly organized. The Government and the heads of the regional local authorities under attack demonstrated the patience, endurance and that same strong spirit which allowed the political echelon to make the right decisions, knowing that the home front could withstand the consequences of those decisions.

* As a decision-making body, the Government of Israel demonstrated unity with regard to goals, and acted professionally and in coordination to achieve those goals. The decisions were all made in a responsible and educated manner, following clarification and in-depth discussions. As an executive branch, the Government met the demands and needs of the population and the fighting forces.

* Alongside the successes, we must also remember the fallen and those who sacrificed their lives to achieve a better reality in the South. The campaign claimed the lives of three residents of the South and ten of our soldiers. Tonight our hearts are with their families. We send our wishes for a speedy recovery to the residents of the South and to the IDF soldiers injured during the operation.

* Today, and in large part due to the success of the military operation, the entire international community is ready to mobilize in order to achieve maximum stability, and knows that, for this to occur, the process of Hamas’s strengthening must stop. To this end, we reached a number of understandings – the importance of which cannot be underestimated – which will ensure that the strengthening of Hamas will decrease. We formulated understandings with the Egyptian government with regard to a number of central issues, the realization of which will bring about a significant reduction in weapons smuggling from Iran and Syria to the Gaza Strip.

* On Friday we signed a memorandum of understanding with the American government, in the framework of which the United States will mobilize to take the necessary steps, together with the other members of the international community, to prevent weapons smuggling by terrorists in Gaza. I wish to thank and express my great appreciation to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Vice Prime Minister for her efforts to reach this agreement, for her contribution to the diplomatic steps and for the widespread diplomatic effort she made over the past several weeks, which were an important contribution to the international backing given to the Israeli effort against the terrorist organizations headed by Hamas.

* Today I received a letter from the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister of Italy, Silvio Berlusconi, the Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel and the President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, in which all four expressed their profound commitment to assisting in any way in order to ensure that weapons will not succeed in reaching the murderous terrorist organizations in Gaza.


I have no doubt that were it not for the determined and successful military action, we would not have reached diplomatic understandings, which together create a full picture of impressive accomplishment.


Citizens of Israel,


The Government decided to launch the operation in Gaza only after long thought and great consideration, and only after all attempts through other means to stop the firing and other acts of terror by Hamas failed. Israel, which withdrew from the Gaza Strip to the last millimeter at the end of 2005 – with no intention of returning – found itself under a barrage of missiles. Hamas violently took control of the Gaza Strip and began attacking the communities in the South more intensely. Hamas’s methods are incomprehensible. It placed its military system in crowded residential neighborhoods, operated among a civilian population which served as a human shield and operated under the aegis of mosques, schools and hospitals, while making the Palestinian population a hostage to its terrorist activities, with the understanding that Israel – as a country with supreme values – would not act. The external Hamas leadership, which lives in comfort and quiet, continued to set extremist policies while ignoring the population’s ongoing suffering and out of a conspicuous unwillingness to ease its situation.


Hamas in Gaza was built by Iran as a foundation for power, and is backed through funding, through training and through the provision of advanced weapons. Iran, which strives for regional hegemony, tried to replicate the methods used by Hizbullah in Lebanon in the Gaza Strip as well. Iran and Hamas mistook the restraint Israel exercised as weakness. They were mistaken. They were surprised.


The State of Israel has proven to them that restraint is an expression of strength which was exercised in a determined and sophisticated manner when that which we had avoided became unavoidable.


During the operation, the State of Israel demonstrated great sensitivity in exercising its force in order to avoid, as much as possible, harming the civilian population not involved in terror. In cases where there was any doubt that striking at terrorists would lead to harming an innocent civilian population – we abstained from acting. There are not many countries which would act thusly.


We have no disagreement with the residents of Gaza. We consider the Gaza Strip a part of the future Palestinian state with which we hope to live a life of good neighborliness, and we wish for the day when the vision of two states is realized.


During the operation, we made widespread and concerted efforts to see to the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian population. We allowed for the transfer of equipment, food and medicine to prevent a humanitarian crisis. In addition, I appointed Minister Isaac Herzog, the Minister of Social Welfare and Social Affairs, to head up this effort, and tonight the Cabinet instructed him to invest all his efforts in preparing a comprehensive plan so that in the next few days, we will be able to provide an appropriate and comprehensive answer to the civilian population’s needs in the Gaza Strip. I wish to express my great appreciation to the international organizations which acted and continue to act tirelessly to assist us in providing the Palestinian population with appropriate living conditions. Israel will continue to cooperate with them, especially in the coming days and weeks on behalf of the Gazan population.

[Mediocrates]

Citizens of Israel,


Today, before the Government meeting, I spoke with the President of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak, who presented Egypt’s initiative to me, along with his request for a ceasefire. I thanked the President for Egypt’s commitment to finding a solution to this crisis and for the important role it plays in the Middle East. I presented the President’s statement to the Cabinet, along with the totality of our achievements in the operation, as well as the completion of the goals. The Cabinet decided to accept my proposal to declare a ceasefire.


Beginning at 2:00 a.m., Israel will cease its actions against the terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip and will remain deployed in the Gaza Strip and its environs.


It must be remembered that Hamas is not part of the arrangements we came to. These are agreements involving many countries, and a terrorist organization like Hamas is not and need not be a part of them. If our enemies decide that the blows they have already suffered are not enough and they wish to continue fighting, Israel will be ready for that scenario and will feel free to continue responding with force.


Hamas was surprised a number of times during the past several weeks. It did not predict the State of Israel’s determination or the seriousness of its intentions to bring about a change in the reality in the region. Hamas’s leaders did not believe that the State of Israel would launch a military operation on such a scale on the eve of elections; it did not predict the force of the military attack and moreover – it did not predict the outcome.


Hamas still does not fully appreciate the difficult blow it received. If Hamas decides to continue its wild terrorist attacks, it may find itself surprised again by the State of Israel’s determination. I do not suggest that it or any other terrorist organization test us.


This statement tonight would be incomplete if I did not mention the kidnapped soldier, Gilad Schalit. One hundred meters from here, there is a demonstration for his release, and I respect each and every one of the participants. The intensive efforts to secure Gilad’s release began long before the operation, continued during it and will continue after as well. The Government of Israel is working on many levels to bring him home, and during the operation we carried out various actions to bring us closer to this goal. Due to the sensitivity of the matter, I will not go into detail. I will only say that Gilad is at the top of our agenda, and we do not need any prodding or reminding in this matter. I am hopeful tonight as well that we will soon see him in his family’s embrace.


On a personal note:


For weeks I have been watching the people of Israel day and night as we make the unprecedented effort to fight for and realize our right of self-defense. I saw the brave soldiers, our dear and beloved sons; I saw their commanders and the spirit which buoyed them; I saw the residents of the South, their fierce sprit; and the leadership of the mayors who took care to provide for the needs of their residents; I also saw the actions of the Home Front Command, which quietly and efficiently coordinated the assistance campaign for the southern region; and I heard the bereaved families.


Dear families, the things you said, the pain you expressed, the fierce spirit you demonstrated – these are the foundation for the people of Israel’s strength. On behalf of the entire nation, on behalf of the Government of Israel, I share your profound pain and thank you for the encouragement, the strength and the inspiration your strong stance has granted the entire nation.


I also wish to say something to the people of Gaza: even before the military operation began, and during it, I appealed to you. We do not hate you; we did not want and do not want to harm you. We wanted to defend our children, their parents, their families. We feel the pain of every Palestinian child and family member who fell victim to the cruel reality created by Hamas which transformed you into victims.


Your suffering is terrible. Your cries of pain touch each of our hearts. On behalf of the Government of Israel, I wish to convey my regret for the harming of uninvolved civilians, for the pain we caused them, for the suffering they and their families suffered as a result of the intolerable situation created by Hamas.


The understandings we reached with Egypt, the international backing of the United States and the European countries – all these do not ensure that the firing by Hamas will stop. If it completely stops – the IDF will consider withdrawing from Gaza at a time which it deems right. If not, the IDF will continue to act in defense of our residents.


This is the time to convey our appreciation and gratitude, first and foremost to you, Mr. Minister of Defense, for your work, for the tremendous effort you made, for your skill, professionalism and the understanding you demonstrated throughout he operation – thank you very much. I wish to thank the soldiers of the IDF, their commanders, the Head of the Southern Command Yoav Galant, and the Chief of General Staff Gabi Ashkenazi; to the Israel Security Agency, its fighters and its head, Yuval Diskin; to the Mossad and its hidden fighters, headed by Meir Dagan; to the Israel Police and the emergency services, Magan David Adom and the Fire Department.


Blessed is the nation with such an army and such security and rescue services.


I wish to express my hope that tonight the first step towards a different reality, one of security and quiet for the residents of Israel, will be taken. From the bottom of my heart, I thank the people of Israel, its fighters and their commanders for the fierceness of spirit and the social solidarity they demonstrated over these past weeks.


This is the secret of our strength – it is the foundation for our power and it is the hope of our future.


Thank you.


Footnotes:


[1] Ravid, Barak, “Cabinet meets on unilateral truce,� Haaretz, Jan. 17, 2009, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056178.html


[2] Farrell, Stephen, “A Credo of Rejection,� The New York Times, Dec. 30, 2008


[3] Hamas, "Council on Foreign Relations Web site, http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/, retrieved July 7, 2008


[4] Ravid, Barak, “Report: Hamas ready to begin conditional Gaza truce on Saturday,� Haaretz, Jan. 16, 2009, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056134.html;


Sofer, Roni, “Livni to get US aid against smuggling,� YnetNews, Jan. 16, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657087,00.html;


Lee, Matthew, “US, Israel to sign deal to boost Gaza truce effort,� Associated Press, Jan. 16, 2009, http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g14_OgVc3KvfIE0q7FpUa4Ou69QQD95OB1I81


[5] Sofer, Roni, “Olmert apologizes to UN chief for UNRWA compound strike,� YnetNews, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656903,00.html


[6] Israel Ministry od Foreign Affairs, delivered Jan. 17 at 3:52 p.m. EST, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2009/Statement_PM_Ehud_Olmert_17-Jan-2009.htm

[Mediocrates]

Gaza and the Outcomes for Israel (http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-and-the-outcomes-for-israel/)

Published by Eamonn McDonagh (http://blog.z-word.com/author/eamonn-mcdonagh/)
on January 17, 2009
in Z word blog (http://blog.z-word.com/category/z-word-blog/)

As the whirlwind of hypocritical emoting about Israel’s campaign in Gaza grows ever larger, it leaves space for a reasoned and political critique of Israel’s actions. Ramez Maluf makes a contribution to occupying that space with this (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0117/1232059657250.html)article in the Irish Times.



He believes that Israel’s assault on Hamas in Gaza is unlikely to produce serious improvements to its security situation and his reasons for believing this are three.
The first is that come what may, Hamas will portray this last round of fighting as a victory. From his exile in Damascus, the Islamic group’s leader, Khaled Meshal, has been touting the success of his fighters’ resistance every day. Despite the human tragedy, he remains unwilling to compromise. His tone is defiant and unyielding. Almost incomprehensibly, many of his and Hizbullah’s supporters are convinced that the tide has changed. When he speaks about fighting for Palestine, he means all of Palestine, and not just land lost in 1948.
He’s right about all this and especially so in the last sentence. Meshal’s pronouncements, at least those that reach the Western media, sound ever more deranged. It looks like a ceasefire is coming soon and regardless of the human and material losses suffered by Hamas, it seems certain that Meshal will be joined by the chorus of antisemitic parrots in the international media in announcing another great victory for the Islamic resistance and Palestinian people. There’s not much Israel can do about this. The rest of us should pity the poor people who win such victories.
Furthermore, some will say, “Ah, but while Israel can win militarily it can never eradicate the ideals and goals of its enemies. Its military victory will, in fact, amount to a political defeat. Until Israel reaches a political deal with its enemies, it will continue to win military victories and suffer political defeats.�


It’s perfectly true that armed force can’t destroy political ideas and ambitions but its equally true that, intelligently applied, it can prevent them from ever being brought to fruition. Also, considering the nature of the ideals and ambitions of Hamas, can anyone be surprised if Israel decides to settle for messy military victories rather that its own orderly disappearance?
The second reason is the ability of Hamas and Hizbullah to secure weaponry. Unless the Israeli incursion results in the destruction of all artisan tunnels between Egypt and Gaza, Hamas will continue to have access to armament and material needed to manufacture their rockets.
While Israel is currently in the midst of restructuring its anti-rocket defence systems, even the more favourable assessments recognise that its options are limited and will ensure only partial results. Matters may improve after 2010 when the Jewish state begins to take delivery of its high-speed anti-rocket Iron Dome defence system, and more so after 2013 when it will start putting in place its long-range Magic Wand systems. Nevertheless, Israel’s vulnerability to rocket attacks will be diminished but not considerably removed.
The Dubai-based Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis reported on January 14th that Palestinians in Gaza have recently started to manufacture a 122mm-calibre Grad version of the Katyusha that is about 30 per cent lighter than the most advanced Qassam rockets they previously used, with an improved range of 18-30km. According to the report, the Palestinians may be “on the verge of improving their range capability and placing the larger Katyusha rocket as the mainstay of their inventory in place of the Qassam, which carries a lighter explosive load and has a range of no more than 9km�.
Though the forthcoming ceasefire ought to sharply limit Hamas’s ability to acquire new weapons Maluf is basically right about this too. Israel certainly can’t stop Hezbollah - an organization lodged within a sovereign state - from acquiring ever greater stocks of weapons.


The fundamental question here is that of rockets. Repeated defeats of their conventional forces has taught Israel’s enemies that their only effective way of threatening it is to shower it with unguided or poorly guided missiles which can be easily concealed, quickly launched and are impossible to destroy with a preemptive strike. As Maluf says, Israel is developing defensive systems to deal with the threat but they are unlikely ever to offer a complete answer to the problem. The attacking side, if it has stockpiled sufficient weapons, will always be able to attempt swamp defensive systems with mass rocket launches. Also, rockets are dirt cheap while the systems being designed to deal with them are ruinously expensive.


Absent a technical solution to the threat of rockets and given the nature of Hamas and Hezbollah, Israel doesn’t have much option but to rely on a policy of deterrence. Its enemies must know that while Israel can’t hope to prevent rockets from being launched into its territory - though the Gaza campaign ought to limit Hamas’s possibilities of doing so - it has the means and, equally important, the will to wreak destruction on the organizations and leaders who dare to do so.


Deterrence is a horrible notion. It offers none of the comfort of ideas like dialogue and reconciliation. When it breaks down a lot of blood will be spilt. For the moment though, it offers Israel the only possible guarantee of its survival.
The third reason is that the appeal of Islamic organisations among Palestinians, as well as other Arab militants, is likely to grow rather than diminish in the years to come. It is naïve to expect that the impoverished Palestinian and Arab populations surrounding Israel will choose to confront Israel as secular liberal democrats, when the West in all of its wisdom, wants to support, arm, and, in the case of the United States, finance a Jewish state in the Middle East, albeit dressed in the garb of modernity. Those who want to support a religious state must be ready to fight a religious war. The muezzin in the mosque nearby has learned that lesson, and his crowd grows larger every week.
Maluf is on weaker ground here. Israel is much more a state for Jews that than it is a Jewish state and what he describes as its “garb of modernity� has proved sufficiently effective to allow it to survive and prosper in spite of the hatred and enmity of many of its neighbors.


Free elections, free speech, a multiplicity of political parties, fractious cabinet meetings, a rowdy civil society and the like all appear terribly tedious and inefficient when compared to the system employed by most of Israel’s enemies, a system known to political science as “one guy decides everything for everybody until he dies when another guy takes over and does the same. “


Modernity and democracy, however imperfectly realized, have served Israel well since its foundation and it would do well to preserve and strengthen them, in the face of mystical and authoritarian temptations.

http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-and-the-outcomes-for-israel/

[im4peace]

So much ignorance & hate on this board...it is a real shame :(

[Madeline]

So much ignorance & hate on this board...it is a real shame :(

Are you a troll? Yes indeed, it's a shame that you bring your hatred and ignorance onto this forum. How sad indeed.

[Y. Shulamith]

So much ignorance & hate on this board...it is a real shame :(

You are a real shame......maybe you should protest for peace in your homeland and help stop the violence in the streets of the UK instead of logging in here with nothing of any import to write about?

:tdown:

[Mediocrates]

So much ignorance & hate on this board...it is a real shame :(

Welcome. Tell us about your site.

[im4peace]

A troll?

I do have important things to say...im just new to the site and was initially overwhelmed by the sheer amount of cognitive dissonance & hatred towards muslims, hence my comments. I see this in both communities/sides of the argument and do not accept it on either side. To be honest it sickens me.

I do protest for peace in my homeland and I am active in many political issues over here in the UK too.

Mediocrates..:D THANK YOU...perhaps you are the shining light I was hoping to find on this board. My site is just a news bulletin I recently started to try and promote peace in Israel/Palestine. Any ideas/feedback etc...will be welcomed and much appreciated.

Peace

[Reffo]

Sorry about living in what seems to be the worst time zone in the world and therefore having to play catch up with the messages. At least we do get to have the big millenium parties first though :DI know what you mean, I'm in the same timezone ;)

[KiwiWriter]

I know what you mean, I'm in the same timezone ;)

Just across the ditch in fact, good to see I'm not all alone down here :D

Now to see how much of a real aussie you are:D How's the cricket going? and doesn't the rugby league world cup look soooo much better over here? :cool:

[Reffo]

Sorry Kiwi, I have to confess that you caught me out on that one, I am not really a cricket fan. I don't mind the state of origin Rugby duels but that's as far as my enthusiasm goes for Rugby as well. Nor do I mind watching the odd game of soccer here and there as long as the game is between good teams :cool:

[Fall]

You are a real shame......maybe you should protest for peace in your homeland and help stop the violence in the streets of the UK instead of logging in here with nothing of any import to write about?

:tdown:

I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there. __Mother Teressa

Have you ever participated in a pro peace rally Shulamith? Peace rallies are usually ignored by media and pretty much not taken seriously, because people who actually act to spread peace are labeled hippies. Looking at your quotes though, you'd rather couple up Arabs/Islam/Muslims with Nazis how ironically hypocritical of you.

[takeo]

CanDo


So...... you would want to force Israel to accept borders which it cannot possibly defend, leaving the Jewish population exposed to bigger and more violent attacks from obvious enemies.

It would be much easier to defend the real borders of Israel than the current Swiss cheese with a lot of holes (=the settlements) they created in Westbank.
And yes, Israel should be forced to leave the territories it illegally occupies, which is an act of war against the Palestinians and against the world. If it refuses, it deserves war, as any occupying state, such as nazi-Germany. During WWII Polish, Belgian, French and many others resisted German occupation. They had every right to resist it, with all means available to them.




If we can learn from history, at all, you are, in fact, calling for the deaths of countless Jews. Is that your type of Jew-hating peace? All Jews dead, or more misery and destruction against the Jews of Israel?

I'm calling for peace, you're calling for eternal war and extermination of Palestinians.

[takeo]

That's your response to my post? Whining and sniveling? :rolleyes:

You couldn't answer my points, so you revert to childish, idiotic statements, just like the previous mindless posts that you scatter around this Jewish Forum.

You equated the removal of all Arabs from Jewish land with Genocide. I called you out because that is obviously brain-dead stupid. One is forcing Arabs to move, and the other is killing them.

And then, all you could come back with is whining and sniveling and meaningless insults. At least when I call you names, like idiot and brain-dead, I back it up with FACTS! :stick:

I answered your points over and over again, but all you can do is personally attack me and insult me like a madman. Besides, there is little to discuss: you want to cleanse the Palestinians, which you consider subhumans. I think Palestinians and Israeli should live in peace and mutual respect. These are two totally irreconsilable views.

Just one thing. Now you say that etnic cleansing and genocide is not the same. But in another post you said that whiping Israel off the map equals genocide. So what's it gonna be? Can you make up your mind please?

[takeo]

Your play on my own words just proves that you have problems coming up with your own original thought. Kinda shows that I am right about you being brain-dead.

You say that Israel targets civilians for 60+ years!? That is obviously a very stupid remark on your part. If true, Israel could have killed Palestinians crossing the border, to work in Israel, or Israel could have killed the many Palestinian civilians that have been treated in Jewish hospitals, or Israel could have attacked Palestinians marching through the streets, calling for the deaths of Jews. In fact, Israel doesn't even target the hostile Arab terrorists that are being held in Israeli jails, and even goes so far as releasing them.

Yet, if a Jewish civilian crosses into Palestinian territory, we all know what usually happens to him.

You are obnoxious, vile and braindead, and now you have started sniveling and whining. Sadly, those are your better character traits! :rock:

You don't even understand it. By copying your words I proved that your hatred towards Arabs is in reality not any different from Arab hatred against Jews and Israel. In French we say: "les extrèmes se touchent". Both Israeli and Arab radicals are brain-dead. What we need is people working towards a resolution acceptable to both people. We don't need extremists like you callign for etnic cleansing, which is of course totally unacceptable for any decent human being and especially for the Palestinians. If that is your solution, Palestinians will and should fight to death.

During its 60 years existance Israel killed many 10's of 10000's of civilians. Much more than arab killed Israeli civilians. Israel didn't kill every Palestinian civilian, because if it did, it would loose US-support, and many decent Israeli would never agree to it. Even yesterday, in Haaretz, there was a large article about Palestinian children who died in Gaza, and a call to stop the war which is mainly killing innocent civilians. Not all Israeli are inhuman butchers like you. Thank God for that. In fact, I think you're not even an Israeli. Your opinion is not worth more than mine.
And Jews do cross into Palestinian territory every day. I did. Nothing happens to them, except if they come in tanks and shoot at people, than Palestinians shoot back. Or if they come as armed settlers to steal Palestinian land.

[takeo]

A troll?

I do have important things to say...im just new to the site and was initially overwhelmed by the sheer amount of cognitive dissonance & hatred towards muslims, hence my comments. I see this in both communities/sides of the argument and do not accept it on either side. To be honest it sickens me.

I do protest for peace in my homeland and I am active in many political issues over here in the UK too.

Mediocrates..:D THANK YOU...perhaps you are the shining light I was hoping to find on this board. My site is just a news bulletin I recently started to try and promote peace in Israel/Palestine. Any ideas/feedback etc...will be welcomed and much appreciated.

Peace

These people don't want peace, they want to erase Palestine and Palestinians off the earth.

[takeo]

Israel's original withdrawl from Gaza was an offer of peace and what did they get for it? Rockets fired further into their country. From my humble observations it's pretty obvious Hamas has no intention of changing its charter.

It wasn't an offer of peace. They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, but not from Westbank or East-Jerusalem. You can compare it to Saddam withdrawing from a part of Kuweit.

[takeo]

From Collins Concise Dictionary & Thesaurus:

Obliterate - blot out, efface, destroy completely.

Thesaurus suggestions of alternatives; annihilate, cancel, wipe off the face of the earth, wipe out.

When "obliterate" is used the person using the word usually isn't thinking about transferring populations.

How also do you explain statements such as "driving the jews into the sea" ? If they are referring to "transfer of entire population" perhaps a more appropriate phrase would be "we're going to give them one way tickets to another country?

Well, people on this site (and some Israeli rightwing parties) want to obliterate the Palestinian state or entity, and the Palestinians as a people, little doubt about it. Hamas wants to obliterate the state of Israel.
What's the difference between "driving the Jews into the sea", and "driving the Palestinians into the Jordan river and death sea"? Because, if you think about it, if Jordan doesn't want them, and Israel wants to cleanse them, that's the only way. Perhaps they won't drawn in the death sea, but I don't think it's very healthy either.

[takeo]

Reffo


But that's not what we are talking about here. I gave you a link which clearly showed that Abbas does not want to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people and you already admitted that.

No, of course he wants to recognise Israel as a state for the Jewish people, but not ONLY for the Jewish people, since Arabs live there as well, and should be equal citizens.


Your analogy clearly does not apply. Why? Because Jews never denied that Germany is a Christian German state (or ditto for the Dutch state).

Germany isn't a christian German white state. Every citizen is equal, whatever his religion, etnicity or color. This hasn't been always the case, but now Germany is a democratic, multicultural state.



However, the Palestinian Arabs have waged more than 60 years of war against Israel during which they avowed to "Drive the Jews into the sea" purely because the didn't want a state for the Jews in the Middle East and in order to make ALL of Palestine Arab.


Palestinian Arabs defended themselves against colonisation and occupation, and fought for their own survival. Both people live on the same land, so that's why they're fighing. But now the PA recognised Israel. But Israel still didn't recognise Palestine as a state with the green line as border.




I hope that Abbas and Fatah will not continue this kind of crappy argument because if, like you, they will, then there will never be peace!

Without a solution for the ones who have been etnically cleansed from their homes, there won't be peace. If Israel, like you, coninues to disregard their existance, then there will never be peace.






The fact is that Jews too lived in Palestine for many generations, some even longer than any Arab.

Yes, but Israel, which is mainly a Jewish state, occupies the largest and best parts of the historical Palestine, and own much more than what was given to them by the UN-partition plan. So they shouldn't complain. Give back the occupied territories, and concentrate on Israel propper please.




It is also true that Jews were in the majority in places like Jerusalem for many generations, yet the Palestinian Arabs insist that they want East Jerusalem.

Because East-Jersualem doesn't belong to Israel and is mostly Palestinian today. But OK, if you want to use the historical demography as an argument, than most of Israel should become Palestinian again, since most areas of current Israel were inhabited by a Palestinian majority before 1948. If you want to look back in the past, when Jerusalem was mainly Jewish, than most of Israel should be given back to the Palestinians. OR you can stick to the international law, which declares Israel within the pre-1967 borders. But you can't have it all.




So, either Abbas and his Fatah will negotiate in good faith and compromise as Israel has, or one would be forced to conclude that Fatah has the same aims as Hamas but different methods to try and achieve those aims. Read what I said before..

They did compromise, they already admitted that not all refugees will be able to return to their homes, and that the resolution calling for their return will not be fulfilled. By recognising Israel they also admitted that the largest and best part of historical Palestine, goes to Israel, not to themselves. This is a giant step towards peace, which wasn't evident at all. All Israel has to do (but many Israeli politicians even refuse to do just that) is giving up some frindge territory were very few Israeli live and that never really belonged to Israel.




Leave the UN out of it, they discredited themselves sufficiently many times over.

So why doesn't Israel leave the UN, as the Turkish prime minister suggested?



And please don't try to intimate that Israel is the only one to want to ignore the UN with it's inbuilt automatic majority support for the Arabs because the Arabs too have ignored the UN in 1948 when they did not have a majority support when they attacked the new state of Israel which the UN declared as a new independent state.

That's all you can say in your defense, something that happened 61 years ago! In the meanwhile a lot changed, but Israel still refuses to commit itself to the UN-resolutions, while many Arab states and the PA did so and recognised Israel.




Me? Personally? I would insist that the 700,000 or so Jewish refugees from Arab countries too should be compensated, not only the Palestinian Arab refugees. However, Israel to date did not seem to insist on that while they agreed to the idea of compensating the Arab refugees. Go figure, they seem to want to go out of their way to ncompromise.

As I proved most of them moved voluntarily, eventough those Arab states involved were not willing to let them go. Zionist organisations were doing everything in their power to convince them to move to Israel. There's no comparison. Palestinians didn't want to move, they were forced.








Now here is a question to you Takeo: Do you think that the Arabs too should compensate the Jewish refugees?

Yes, why not? But this is a different question, that Israel has to arrange with each Arab country separately. It doesn't relate to the Palestinians.




Yes, it needs to be addressed although it should have been addressed many years ago by the Arabs themselves in the same way that Israel took care of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

How can it be adressed when those Palestinians wanted to return home and those Arab states didn't want them? Arab Jews didn't want to return, and were very welcome in Israel. A major difference.





Nevertheless, Israel for the sake of real peace has indicated a willingness to address the question of the Arab refugees but it has not accepted the idea that the Arabs will dictate the terms. Compromise YES but NO DICTATES!

Yes, compromise. But so far I didn't see any willingness to compromise on this matter by the Israeli side.





Why? Because the Arab people were NOT the only ones wronged, the Israeli people too were wronged by the war that was started against them many years ago by the fascist racist Arab leaders of yesteryear.

Palestinian refugees can not be held accountable for the deeds of a few politicians. Besides, as Benny Morris concluded, it was a deliberate Israeli action to remove those Palestinians, a deliberate policy of etnic cleansing.





I am glad that you admit that they ARE useless (I won't insist on the word "TOTAL" even though I do believe I should :D). Yes, only a few rockets have been fired at Israel since 2006 but let me assure you that it wasn't because of the UN, it was because Hezbollah does not yet want to pay the same or worse consequences that they had to pay for their aggression of 2006.

really? But Israel invaded Lebanon before, even worse than in 2006, and yet resistence only grew stronger. But since 2006 the bother is peaceful. Why can't you just admit the facts.







But tell me this, Takeo, how come the UN allowed Hezbollah to rearm itself, I thought that one of the jobs of the UN was to stop that?

I don't know if they're rearming. That's what you say. Personally, I think they have the right to arm themselves. But they can't strike Israel. However, if Israel attacks Lebanon once again, than they should be able to strike Israel with full force in retaliation. tit for tat, that seems to be the Israeli military devise, and neighbouring countries have the right to adopt the same strategy.







Oh, and I have no doubt that if one day Hezbollah would decide that they want to get rid of the UN from South Lebanon, they [the UN] will just pack their belongings like good children and will move out.

I don't think so, today they have a strong mandate.



That's exactly what they did in 1967 when Nasser ordered the UN peace keepers to leave Sinai.

That's more than 40 years ago. Times changed since then.




And that of course allowed Nasser to start a blockade against Israel which in turn led to the 1967 war.

It didn't led to the 1967 war, that's your internpretation. It was used by Israel as an excuse to grab more land. That's my interpretation. If you say that a blockade is a reason for war, than Hamas was right to send rockets to Israel, right? Israel was blockading Gaza since a long time. And and end to the blockade will be a condition sine quae non for any peace-deal for Hamas.








I'll say it again, the UN WAS useless and IT IS useless. The only thing that they are good at nowdays is to blame Israel for defending itself!

The UN treated Israel with silk gloves. Any other state which isn't a friend of any of the permanent security council members doing the same (occupation, etc.), such as Serbia, Iraq, Indonesia, would already have faced far worse condemnation and consequences.

[takeo]

Reffo



That's not what I said, read what I actually said. And again, whatever they agree on in the end, the Palestinian Arabs will HAVE TO agree to FORMALLY RENOUNCE their so called right of return. Is Abbas willing to do that now?


Only if there's a solution for the refugees, acceptable to all parties. That means negociations about the refugees. Barak was not prepared to do so.



That's not enough (for the reasons that I've already gave above). If Abbas/Fatah want land, they have to FORMALLY RECOGNIZE Israel as a state for the Jewish people (nation).

That's an unjust condition. They will not betray Israeli Arabs. If they garantee Israel's security and territorial integrity, that's enough.



Cut the Bhantustan BS, that was always a figment of the imaginations of Arab propagandists such as yourself.

Of course the Apartheid regime and Israel were good friends. I understand that you don't want to be reminded about that. They wanted to create Bantustans for the blacks inside a white dominated South-Africa. That's what some Israeli want as the solution for the Palestinian problem as well. Fortunately it didn't succeed.







What I mean is demilitarisation and whatever else could be negotiated to minimise the prospects of attacks against Israel and Israelis.

OK, demilitarisations on both sides of the border, I agree. But not unilateral Palestinian demilitarisation. Both states should conduct negociations and finalise treaties as two equal states.





Yes it can until the Arabs meet it's demands too. Israel cannot be expected to give up land which it captured in a war of extermination that the Arabs started against Israel for nothing in return.

When Israel ends its act of war (40 years of occupation and colonisation can never be justified by the Egyptian blockade which was the official reason for the 1967 war) than Palestinians will to.



The allies (but not your Russians) ceased their occupation of Germany and Japan only many years after the end of the war and only after both those countries signed an UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER!

Israel is the one occupying and colonising, and violating international law, so you think Israel should sign an unconditional surrender? I don't think so. This conflict is very different from WWII. There shouldn't be unconditional surrender of any side, but negociations based on equality between both parties. Palestinians will never, and should never, unconditionally surrender, nor should Israel. this whole WWII thing was also tried in Iraq, with fatal consequences. For example the debaatification was inspired by the denazification. But what the ideologues in the White House failed to see was that in this case not the Iraqi's, but the US, were the aggressors. AND that Arabs are no Germans or Japanese, AND that 2003 is not 1945.









First of all, you did not give any quote, name or link, please do so now.

Of course I did, on this same thread. I quoted from newsweek. I also quoted other voices in American mainstream media criticising Israel, and criticising the American unconditional support for Israel.

Let's cite Aaron David Miller, advisor for Democratic and Republican administrations.
"The departure point for a viable peace deal-either with Syria or the Palestinians- must not be based purely on what the political traffic in Israel will bear, but on the requirements of all sides. The new president seems tougher and more focused than his predecessors; he's unlikely to become enthralled by either of Israel's two leading candidates for prime minister, or Likudnik Benjamin Netanyahu. Indeed, the latter may well find himself (like Clinton) privately frustrated with Netanyahu's tough policies. Unlike Clinton, if Israeli behavior crosses the line, he should allow those frustrations to surface publicly in the service of American national interests. The issue at hand is to find the right balance in America's ties with Israel. Driven by shared values and based on America's 60-year commitment to Israel's security and well-being, the special relationship is rock solid. But for the past 16 years, the US has allowed that special bond to become exlusive in ways that undermine America's, Israel's, national interests. If Obama is serious about peacemaking he'll have to adjust that balance in 2 ways. First, whatever the transgressions of the Palestinians, he'll also have to deal with Israel's behavior on the ground The Gaza crisis is a case in point. Israel has every reason to defend itself against Hamas. But does it make sense for America to support its policy of punishing Hamas by making life imbearable for 1.5 million Gazans by denying aid and economic development? The answer is no. Then there's the settlement issue. In 25 years of working on this issue for 6 secretaries of state, I can't recall one meeting where we had a serious discussion with an Israeli prime minister about the damage that settlement activity-including land confiscation, bypass roads and housing demolisions-does to the peacemaking progress. There is a need to impose some accountability. Second, Obama will have to maintain his independence and tactical flexibility to play the mediator's role. This means not road-testing everything with Israel first before previewing it to the other side, a practice we followed scrupulously during the Clinton and Bush years. America must also not agree to every idea proposed by an Israeli prime minister. Our willingness to go along with Barak's make-or-break strategy at the Camp david summit proved very costly where more critical thinking on our side might have helped preempt the catastrophe that followed. Coordinating with Israel or matters relating to its security is one thing. Giving Israel a veto over American negociating tactics and positions, particularly when it comes to bridging gaps between the two sides, is quite another. "

(newsweek, jan. 12 2009, page 18)

[Reffo]

But that's not what we are talking about here. I gave you a link which clearly showed that Abbas does not want to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people and you already admitted that.

No, of course he wants to recognise Israel as a state for the Jewish people, but not ONLY for the Jewish people, since Arabs live there as well, and should be equal citizens.Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state means recognition of it as a state where the Jewish people would be in the majority not necessarily as a state where only Jews are allowed to live. But it seems that he is not willing to give that recognition.


Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas reiterated his refusal on Saturday to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, Israel Radio reported. - Haaretz 02/12/2007


Germany isn't a christian German white state. Every citizen is equal, whatever his religion, etnicity or color. This hasn't been always the case, but now Germany is a democratic, multicultural state. Yes equal but the majority of the people would always be kept to be German. Just ask the Germans how they would react to a suggestion to change the overall demographics of Germany. They would be against it and likewise Israelis too oppose a suggestion that their system of government should allow the possibility to make the Jews a minority in their own country.


However, the Palestinian Arabs have waged more than 60 years of war against Israel during which they avowed to "Drive the Jews into the sea" purely because the didn't want a state for the Jews in the Middle East and in order to make ALL of Palestine Arab.

Palestinian Arabs defended themselves against colonisation and occupation, and fought for their own survival. Both people live on the same land, so that's why they're fighing. But now the PA recognised Israel. But Israel still didn't recognise Palestine as a state with the green line as border.More of your sloganeering :eek:

Neither Jews or Arabs were governing Palestine for at least 1600 years
Both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine
Both some Jews and Arabs migrated into Palestine
Jews bought land and worked the land

So can you please explain where was the colonisation and the occupation that you are talking about prior to 1948?


Without a solution for the ones who have been etnically cleansed from their homes, there won't be peace. If Israel, like you, coninues to disregard their existance, then there will never be peace.Show me exactly where I disregarded their existence. The rest of it is some more of your sloganeering.


Yes, but Israel, which is mainly a Jewish state, occupies the largest and best parts of the historical Palestine, and own much more than what was given to them by the UN-partition plan. So they shouldn't complain. Give back the occupied territories, and concentrate on Israel propper please.Only after they do the bits that I already mentioned.


It is also true that Jews were in the majority in places like Jerusalem for many generations, yet the Palestinian Arabs insist that they want East Jerusalem.

Because East-Jersualem doesn't belong to Israel and is mostly Palestinian today. See my point? Israel too is mostly Jewish today yet your Fatah don't want to recognize it as a Jewish state, why?


They did compromise, they already admitted that not all refugees will be able to return to their homesYet they still clearly insist that Israel MUST recognize their so called right of return. Why not just agree on a solution for the refugees and then give up that demand?


So why doesn't Israel leave the UN, as the Turkish prime minister suggested?Why not indeed? Can you answer your own question?


Arabs too have ignored the UN in 1948 when they did not have a majority support when they attacked the new state of Israel which the UN declared as a new independent state.

That's all you can say in your defense, something that happened 61 years ago! In the meanwhile a lot changed, but Israel still refuses to commit itself to the UN-resolutions.More of your double standards! The refugee problem also goes back 61 years.


Me? Personally? I would insist that the 700,000 or so Jewish refugees from Arab countries too should be compensated, not only the Palestinian Arab refugees. However, Israel to date did not seem to insist on that while they agreed to the idea of compensating the Arab refugees. Go figure, they seem to want to go out of their way to compromise.

As I proved most of them moved voluntarily, eventough those Arab states involved were not willing to let them go. Zionist organisations were doing everything in their power to convince them to move to Israel. There's no comparison. Palestinians didn't want to move, they were forced.You are a liar.


Now here is a question to you Takeo: Do you think that the Arabs too should compensate the Jewish refugees?

Yes, why not? But this is a different question, that Israel has to arrange with each Arab country separately. It doesn't relate to the Palestinians.And can Israel lob rockets at them too if they don't agree to compensate the Jewish refugees?


Yes, it needs to be addressed although it should have been addressed many years ago by the Arabs themselves in the same way that Israel took care of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

How can it be adressed when those Palestinians wanted to return home and those Arab states didn't want them? Arab Jews didn't want to return, and were very welcome in Israel. A major difference.The Arab states SHOULD have looked after them instead of using them as cannon fodder.

[Reffo]

Nevertheless, Israel for the sake of real peace has indicated a willingness to address the question of the Arab refugees but it has not accepted the idea that the Arabs will dictate the terms. Compromise YES but NO DICTATES!

Yes, compromise. But so far I didn't see any willingness to compromise on this matter by the Israeli side.You are forgetting about Ehud Barak's 2000/2001 peace offer again (here we go around the Mulberry Bush again :lol:)


Why? Because the Arab people were NOT the only ones wronged, the Israeli people too were wronged by the war that was started against them many years ago by the fascist racist Arab leaders of yesteryear.

Palestinian refugees can not be held accountable for the deeds of a few politicians.But it seems that Palestinian Arabs hold ordinary Israelis responsible for the wrongs that they perceive that was done to them and they carry out collective punishment against ordinary Israelis. Why is that Takeo?


Besides, as Benny Morris concluded, it was a deliberate Israeli action to remove those Palestinians, a deliberate policy of etnic cleansing.You are lying again but your Benny Morris concluded that Arafat was to blame for the breakdown of peace following the peace deal that Ehud Barak offered to the Palestinians in 2000/2001, what do you say about that?


I am glad that you admit that they [the UN] ARE useless (I won't insist on the word "TOTAL" even though I do believe I should ). Yes, only a few rockets have been fired at Israel since 2006 but let me assure you that it wasn't because of the UN, it was because Hezbollah does not yet want to pay the same or worse consequences that they had to pay for their aggression of 2006.

really? But Israel invaded Lebanon before, even worse than in 2006, and yet resistence only grew stronger. But since 2006 the bother is peaceful. Why can't you just admit the facts.Peaceful if you consider a few rockets falling on someone else's head as peaceful. I wonder if you'd consider it peaceful if the rockets would fall on your head or on the heads of your relos?


But tell me this, Takeo, how come the UN allowed Hezbollah to rearm itself, I thought that one of the jobs of the UN was to stop that?

I don't know if they're rearming. That's what you say. Personally, I think they have the right to arm themselves. But they can't strike Israel. However, if Israel attacks Lebanon once again, than they should be able to strike Israel with full force in retaliation. tit for tat, that seems to be the Israeli military devise, and neighbouring countries have the right to adopt the same strategy.That's not just what I say, it's what hezbollah themselves say. And, no according to the cease fire deal, the UN was supposed to stop them from rearming, go check it out!


Oh, and I have no doubt that if one day Hezbollah would decide that they want to get rid of the UN from South Lebanon, they [the UN] will just pack their belongings like good children and will move out.

I don't think so, today they have a strong mandate.

That's exactly what they did in 1967 when Nasser ordered the UN peace keepers to leave Sinai.

That's more than 40 years ago. Times changed since then.You seem to have a very strong faith, if I didn't know any better I would call you a religious fanatic :D


And that of course allowed Nasser to start a blockade against Israel which in turn led to the 1967 war.

It didn't led to the 1967 war, that's your internpretation. It was used by Israel as an excuse to grab more land. That's my interpretation. If you say that a blockade is a reason for war, than Hamas was right to send rockets to Israel, right? Israel was blockading Gaza since a long time. And and end to the blockade will be a condition sine quae non for any peace-deal for Hamas.Sure Takeo ... you just keep on asserting that the earth is flat :lol:


I'll say it again, the UN WAS useless and IT IS useless. The only thing that they are good at nowdays is to blame Israel for defending itself!

The UN treated Israel with silk gloves. Any other state which isn't a friend of any of the permanent security council members doing the same (occupation, etc.), such as Serbia, Iraq, Indonesia, would already have faced far worse condemnation and consequences. Are you listening to yourself? :lol: If I were you, I'd get yourself a thorough check out by a Doctor

[KiwiWriter]

Sorry Kiwi, I have to confess that you caught me out on that one, I am not really a cricket fan. I don't mind the state of origin Rugby duels but that's as far as my enthusiasm goes for Rugby as well. Nor do I mind watching the odd game of soccer here and there as long as the game is between good teams :cool:

Fair enough, not that into them either myself. :)

[Reffo]

That's not what I said, read what I actually said. And again, whatever they agree on in the end, the Palestinian Arabs will HAVE TO agree to FORMALLY RENOUNCE their so called right of return. Is Abbas willing to do that now?

Only if there's a solution for the refugees, acceptable to all parties. That means negociations about the refugees. Barak was not prepared to do so.If what you say is true, then there will be peace but that's not what Abbas seems to be saying. And you are lying about Barak, we discussed this before see the previous thread (I gave you the link already)


That's not enough (for the reasons that I've already gave above). If Abbas/Fatah want land, they have to FORMALLY RECOGNIZE Israel as a state for the Jewish people (nation).

That's an unjust condition. They will not betray Israeli Arabs. If they garantee Israel's security and territorial integrity, that's enough.In what way would that betray Israeli Arabs?

To use your analogy, are German and Dutch minorities betrayed just because the German and Dutch people would always ensure that they [the native Germans and Dutch] will remain a majority?


That's what some Israeli want as the solution for the Palestinian problem as well. Fortunately it didn't succeed.How would you know what most Israelis want?


What I mean is demilitarisation and whatever else could be negotiated to minimise the prospects of attacks against Israel and Israelis.

OK, demilitarisations on both sides of the border, I agree. But not unilateral Palestinian demilitarisation. Both states should conduct negociations and finalise treaties as two equal states.OK, so you expect Israel to give up land and to demilitarise? What would they get in return, empty promises?


..the Egyptian blockade which was the official reason for the 1967 war) than Palestinians will to.No, it wasn't the only reason.


so you think Israel should sign an unconditional surrender?Who? Moi? :scratch:


This conflict is very different from WWII. Yes you are right, this should use different standards because Joooooooooos are involved :rolleyes:


Let's cite Aaron David MillerLet's not! Who has ever heard of him besides you and your kind? Clinton and Dennis Ross on the other hand are NOT nonentities like this guy.

[KiwiWriter]

It wasn't an offer of peace. They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, but not from Westbank or East-Jerusalem. You can compare it to Saddam withdrawing from a part of Kuweit.

:scratch: any unilateral withdrawl is an offer of peace. Your comparison also doesn't work because Iraq partially withdrawing from Kuweit in no way exposes Iraq to the same strategic risks as israel withdrawing from gaza. Israel made the offer (doesn't really matter how small you think it was) and Hamas made it abundantly clear that they were not interested in peace by using their newly gained real estate to attack even more israeli cities.

[KiwiWriter]

Well, people on this site (and some Israeli rightwing parties) want to obliterate the Palestinian state or entity, and the Palestinians as a people, little doubt about it. Hamas wants to obliterate the state of Israel.
What's the difference between "driving the Jews into the sea", and "driving the Palestinians into the Jordan river and death sea"? Because, if you think about it, if Jordan doesn't want them, and Israel wants to cleanse them, that's the only way. Perhaps they won't drawn in the death sea, but I don't think it's very healthy either.

If countries like Jordan don't want them, why should Israel have to be the ones who are stuck with them?

[KiwiWriter]

Okay this is a link to an electronic weekly newspaper from NZ and Aussie. Article of specific interest is on front page (and I don't mean the stories about the copper caught nicking stuff on video or the Maggot burger but if you find those interesting then that's okay) please let me know if the link doesn't work as I'm a subscriber and it may have some fancy way of only allowing access from subscriber computers or something. Sorry if the above is long winded.

http://www.investigatemagazine.com/tgif16jan09.pdf

PS Takeo I am referring to you in particular as you may find it all rather enlightening. Then again maybe not.

[Madeline]

Why don't we start calling this forum the Takeo forum?
Pages and pages of anti Israel insults.
Do you know what a troll is, and what its purpose is?

[takeo]

Why don't we start calling this forum the Takeo forum?
Pages and pages of anti Israel insults.
Do you know what a troll is, and what its purpose is?

I'm not anti-Israel, I think the state of Israel should exist, alongside a Palestinian state. If you think that's anti-Israel propaganda, than it says more about you than about me.

[takeo]

If countries like Jordan don't want them, why should Israel have to be the ones who are stuck with them?

Jordan has no obligation to take them. Jordan isn't involved in all this. Israel has to take care of them since Israel is the occupying power of the area where those Palestinians live. If Israel withdraws, than it doesn't have that obligation anymore, that's what I propose, instead of obliterating any people...

[takeo]

:scratch: any unilateral withdrawl is an offer of peace. Your comparison also doesn't work because Iraq partially withdrawing from Kuweit in no way exposes Iraq to the same strategic risks as israel withdrawing from gaza. Israel made the offer (doesn't really matter how small you think it was) and Hamas made it abundantly clear that they were not interested in peace by using their newly gained real estate to attack even more israeli cities.

It is not, certainly not if the largest part of Palestine remains occupied. In the case of Kuweit, noone would have accepted it.

And of course Sharon didn't want to negociate the pull-out with the Palestinian government. This reality gave Hamas a free hand. Perhaps, and that's my interpretation, was this the reason, to create division among Palestinians, in which he succeeded.

i'll reply to reffo later.

[CanDo]

No, of course he wants to recognise Israel as a state for the Jewish people, but not ONLY for the Jewish people, since Arabs live there as well, and should be equal citizens.

Arabs/Muslims should never have been given equal citizenship in Israel. Besides, Jews and Christians are not equal citizens in the Arab/Muslim world. Why are the Jews of Israel held up to so much of a higher standard than the rest of the Middle East?

Israel should have rid itself of Arabs when they had the chance. Perhaps there is hope in the future, whenever a peace deal is made with the Palestinians, where Israel's Arab get to join their brothers and sisters OUT of Israel.

Hell! Why should Israel have to suffer forever with Arabs/Muslims. I don't even want to have them here, dragging down the US!


Palestinian Arabs defended themselves against colonisation and occupation, and fought for their own survival.

A stupid, brain-dead comment by the undereducated, unskilled takeo, who knows NOTHING about the history of the area. NOTHING!

Palestinian Arabs moved into the area to take advantage of job opportunities, after Jews developed the area. The Arabs did not have to fight for their survival, as you so very dishonestly put it. It was the Arabs who attacked Jewish families, to steal what Jews had built, and the attacks by Arabs against Jews have continued for well over 60 years.

Takeo, you base your opinions on your own ignorance and stupidity. You have delusions about history, and make things up in your twisted, defected mind. I'll bet that you are dyslectic, aren't you? You have problems reading and understanding what you read. Unfortunately, the good people of the Israel Forum have to suffer through your unintelligent dibble.

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: Jordan has no obligation to take them. Jordan isn't involved in all this. Israel has to take care of them since Israel is the occupying power of the area where those Palestinians live. If Israel withdraws, than it doesn't have that obligation anymore, that's what I propose, instead of obliterating any people...

The genocidal pro-Arab left-wing troll continues talking to itself in its mirrored room, which is getting smaller and smaller... :)

Meanwhile, in the real world, Hamas has been weakened and will - God willing! - be defeated altogether!

[Madeline]

The genocidal pro-Arab left-wing troll continues talking to itself in its mirrored room, which is getting smaller and smaller... :)

Meanwhile, in the real world, Hamas has been weakened and will - God willing! - be defeated altogether!


Yes, and I hope it will lead to an end to the violence, and its necessitating a DEFENSIVE response.

[ItsMyJewty]

Madeline: Yes, and I hope it will lead to an end to the violence, and its necessitating a DEFENSIVE response.

Absolutely. Many people don't seem to understand that Israel has been forced to take defensive action (10,000 rockets have been fired at Sderot since 2001, and there has also been sniper fire). Ever since the creation of the State of Israel, she has had war forced upon her by her Arab neighbours. The peace-loving people of Israel are fighting for peace and life, not war and death (which is what the "Palestinians" are doing) - there's a big difference between the two. (pea-brains try to focus!)

Egypt must be held accountable for allowing weapons to be smuggled into Gaza. They must bear some responsibility for this war on Israel.

[Y. Shulamith]

I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there. __Mother Teressa

Have you ever participated in a pro peace rally Shulamith? Peace rallies are usually ignored by media and pretty much not taken seriously, because people who actually act to spread peace are labeled hippies. Looking at your quotes though, you'd rather couple up Arabs/Islam/Muslims with Nazis how ironically hypocritical of you.

As a matter of fact, I was at the rally in D.C. "I Stand for Israel" a few years back.

I was a little young to be attending protest marches during Viet Nam war, but I was there in spirit.

Nothing that Israel does has anything to do with what Arabs/Islam/Muslims are all about. Arabs/Muslims have been causing strife and misery throughout the ages and especially after the Crusaders did a number on them, lots of years ago. The Arabs/Muzzies are still living in the 12th century and fighting over the bloodbath cause by the Crusaders.

[Y. Shulamith]

Everyone wants to stop the violence and is pro-peace, but it takes two to tango and the last tango has not been danced, unfortunately.....

[ItsMyJewty]

Y. Shulamith: Everyone wants to stop the violence and is pro-peace, but it takes two to tango and the last tango has not been danced, unfortunately.....

With the growing international pressure on Egypt to do something about the tunnels and Hamas's readiness to recognize Israel, I'm sure there'll be peace soon.