The Battle for Gaza has begun!

[dayag]

With the growing international pressure on Egypt to do something about the tunnels and Hamas's readiness to recognize Israel, I'm sure there'll be peace soon.

Hamas's readiness to recognize Israel?!
:scratch:

[Fall]

As a matter of fact, I was at the rally in D.C. "I Stand for Israel" a few years back.

after the Crusaders did a number on them

See you clearly did not understand the message of that quote, i looked up the "I Stand for Israel" rally on June 10th on youtube and all I saw was a bunch of posters with "Stop using Human Shields". That's hardly pro peace, it's siding with Israel, which by the last couple of weeks created hundreds more terrorists then it killed. So think that question over.

Well seeing as the Crusades "Did a number" on all of Jerusalem and virtually killed every Jew in Prague i'm rather surprised you're proud of there actions. The same men who said
“To go on this journey only after avenging the blood of the crucified one by shedding Jewish blood and completely eradicating any trace of those bearing the name 'Jew,' thus assuaging his own burning wrath.” Godfrey of Bouillon

You're wrong in thinking all the Arabs/Muslims have been spreading strife and misery throughout the ages, and you know it. I could pull up all the good they've done, but the mass amount of anti-Islam on this forum would just prove it pointless.

[Madeline]

See you clearly did not understand the message of that quote, i looked up the "I Stand for Israel" rally on June 10th on youtube and all I saw was a bunch of posters with "Stop using Human Shields". That's hardly pro peace, it's siding with Israel, which by the last couple of weeks created hundreds more terrorists then it killed. So think that question over.

Well seeing as the Crusades "Did a number" on all of Jerusalem and virtually killed every Jew in Prague i'm rather surprised you're proud of there actions. The same men who said
“To go on this journey only after avenging the blood of the crucified one by shedding Jewish blood and completely eradicating any trace of those bearing the name 'Jew,' thus assuaging his own burning wrath.” Godfrey of Bouillon

You're wrong in thinking all the Arabs/Muslims have been spreading strife and misery throughout the ages, and you know it. I could pull up all the good they've done, but the mass amount of anti-Islam on this forum would just prove it pointless.

Friend of andaks? Takeo? Welcome nevertheless.

[Y. Shulamith]

See you clearly did not understand the message of that quote, i looked up the "I Stand for Israel" rally on June 10th on youtube and all I saw was a bunch of posters with "Stop using Human Shields". That's hardly pro peace, it's siding with Israel, which by the last couple of weeks created hundreds more terrorists then it killed. So think that question over.

Well seeing as the Crusades "Did a number" on all of Jerusalem and virtually killed every Jew in Prague i'm rather surprised you're proud of there actions. The same men who said
“To go on this journey only after avenging the blood of the crucified one by shedding Jewish blood and completely eradicating any trace of those bearing the name 'Jew,' thus assuaging his own burning wrath.” Godfrey of Bouillon

You're wrong in thinking all the Arabs/Muslims have been spreading strife and misery throughout the ages, and you know it. I could pull up all the good they've done, but the mass amount of anti-Islam on this forum would just prove it pointless.


1. Once again, you are wrong, I went to a rally in D.C., I believe, it was in 2002, when the intifada began, not a rally that had anything to do with Hamas and human shields.

2. All of Europe at one time or another killed Jews, what's the difference with Prague, it was just another murderous tirade against Jews?

3. Arabs haven't contributed anything to the world, since, ALGEBRA, and that's a stretch.

4. The last book I've read by an Arab is "The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam", which is probably the last time that Arab's have been able to have something constructive to contribute to the literature of the world.:lol:

5. Peace is not coming anytime soon....there is too much evil prevailing in the world and there will be much more strife before peace.

66. I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some Letter of that After life to spell:
And by and by my Soul, return'd to me,
And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell:"

Omar Khayyam~~~~

[Reffo]

i'll reply to reffo later.Please do me a favour and don't bother, OK?:eek:

[bararallu]

You're wrong in thinking all the Arabs/Muslims have been spreading strife and misery throughout the ages, and you know it. I could pull up all the good they've done, but the mass amount of anti-Islam on this forum would just prove it pointless.

Don't confuse Arabs with Ottomans please. We know who did what when. Every Turk on this forum will be willing and able to explain that to you. That is if you mean regarding Jews. Generally speaking, we are here and now, 2009 CE. The Arab Middle East, is a backward crap house, in places extremely anti progressive, artificially propped up by petrodollars and handouts. Fully opposite of what Israel stands for and in reality IS. I can also find you a whole lot of proof that there is insane amount of pure xenophobic racism within the Arab Muslim community against minorities, often Muslim. From the mistreatment of Bedouin, to Sudanese Fur, to Berbers, to Kurds and others. You live in the US, where it's all nice & dandy. That is not reality in the ME. We seldom roll that out into the public arena, even though it's quite easy to do that. It's even worse for non muslims. Today, a good many Egyptians are pushing for re-instating jizia against the Copts, who are treated like garbage as is. Yemenite Jews are being shot for just being Jews. Jews have been ethnically cleansed from every Arab country. The majority Hebron [Jewish] community was massacred by the Arabs 20+ years before the founding of the State of Israel. Every synagogue was burned in Samaria and Judea and Syria and Iraq. They don't respect us, calling us apes and pigs at every turn. Creating a massive religious war out of what essentially was an ethnic conflict.

And yes, why cant we show the blatant hypocrisy of Hamas using Human shields... or is using human shields conducive to peace? It's sure conducive to pieces.... aka cannon fodder that Iran and the Arabs use to continue to finance and wage their jihad. Where are the peace parties in the Muslim Arab world? Where are the Arab equivalent of "Peace Now"? They don't exist. Preaching to us here, just points out your own hypocrisy and/or ignorance.

Look in a mirror first before you start casting stones.

[Mosche]

[QUOTE]Well seeing as the Crusades "Did a number" on all of Jerusalem and virtually killed every Jew in Prague i'm rather surprised you're proud of there actions. The same men who said
“To go on this journey only after avenging the blood of the crucified one by shedding Jewish blood and completely eradicating any trace of those bearing the name 'Jew,' thus assuaging his own burning wrath.” Godfrey of Bouillon

I think you actually are the one who misunderstood the quote made by Shulamith. I read the quote to be anything but an endorsement of the crusades.


You're wrong in thinking all the Arabs/Muslims have been spreading strife and misery throughout the ages, and you know it. I could pull up all the good they've done, but the mass amount of anti-Islam on this forum would just prove it pointless.

If you are convinced that this forum is racist beyond redemption, why are you here? Your statements are both condescending and rude.

For what it's worth, the crusades were fought by misguided Christians--that does not mean that all Christians are bad. There have been many good Christians; however, if I had lived during the Crusades, I would have been angry with THOSE Christians. Now however, many Christians, especially Evangelical Christians, are counted among the Jewish communities closest friends. Similarly, during the Crusades there were Christians who shielded the Jews from Crusaders. For example, Simon bar Samson wrote that the local bishops granted refuge to Jews when the Crusaders attacked the German cities of Worms, Speyer, and Mainz. Though the bishops were unable to save most of the Jews, they did try.

Likewise, Islam has done great things in the past--they are to be commended for their historical achievements in science, law, and mathematics. Unfortunately, many of their great achievements are being overshadowed by their current actions. I didn't live during the great era of Islam: I live now. Thus, I criticize what I see happening now.

[Y. Shulamith]

I meant exactly what I said, that just because the Crusaders destroyed Jerusalem in the 12th century, doesn't give the Arabs license to act out on that travesty in the 21st century!! They/Arabs are behaving as though they have a just grievance over things that happened many centuries ago and for this, they feel justified in creating mayhem, the world over. They are wrong and will be proven so when push comes to shove, and although they are shoving a lot right now, they will be dealt with accordingly.

[Mosche]

I meant exactly what I said, that just because the Crusaders destroyed Jerusalem in the 12th century, doesn't give the Arabs license to act out on that travesty in the 21st century!! They/Arabs are behaving as though they have a just grievance over things that happened many centuries ago and for this, they feel justified in creating mayhem, the world over. They are wrong and will be proven so when push comes to shove, and although they are shoving a lot right now, they will be dealt with accordingly.

That's what I thought! Evidentally, Fall read something else!?

[Y. Shulamith]

May I just add one other item, so long as I am here anyway: The Muslim/Islam Jihad is against the whole Judeo-Christian ethic. It is not just a Jewish thing. Islam is fighting a war against both Jews and Christians and that is what the "peaceful" religion of Mohammad is currently, in this day and age, all about, unfortunately.

[Madeline]

May I just add one other item, so long as I am here anyway: The Muslim/Islam Jihad is against the whole Judeo-Christian ethic. It is not just a Jewish thing. Islam is fighting a war against both Jews and Christians and that is what the "peaceful" religion of Mohammad is currently, in this day and age, all about, unfortunately.

We are all infidels after all, that is true. Sadly those who so misunderstand both the violent and the soft Jihad, will not be spared either.

"First the Saturday people; then the Sunday people!"

- Arabic text painted on the walls of Muslim-occupied Bethlehem , Israel - Dec. 2008.

[ItsMyJewty]

dayag: Hamas's readiness to recognize Israel?!

I was being funny/sarcastic. There's no sign of any pressure being put on Egypt either. Hope the ceasefire doesn't hold - Israel needs to finish the job!

[Madeline]

I was being funny/sarcastic. There's no sign of any pressure being put on Egypt either. Hope the ceasefire doesn't hold - Israel needs to finish the job!

Unless she wants to do it over and over and over again.

[dayag]

I was being funny/sarcastic. There's no sign of any pressure being put on Egypt either. Hope the ceasefire doesn't hold - Israel needs to finish the job!

I'm glad to hear it and agree 100%.

Also it looks like Olmert, Livni, & Barack are going to abandon Gilad Shalit.
I hope the voters remember that next month and vote for Likud.

[Fall]

First let me adress Mosche and Madeline.
I'm on this forum not as Andak or anyone else's friend, i came here to try understanding the mind set of the pro-Israeli group.

#1 Regarding Y. Shulamith

Seeing as you said a "couple years ago" i took it literally (2006). I was also unaware that you valued people on their contributions to the world, in that case a whole lot of the world is worthless to you.

Through out that wall of text i read by Bararallu, i do agree on one thing. Saudia Arabia and other countries do need to educate themselves and put more emphasis on progression, but as long as America loves the caravan raider leaders of the Saud, there won't be change anytime soon. I wouldn't mind seeing a revolution or a significant skirmish with the stupid goverment of Saudia Arabia, because i believe the only people who will fight for their king will be the military who gets payed outrageous amounts of money.

Bararallu i do live in the U.S. and i have been to Jordan and Saudia Arabia on occasion but i don't speak arabic so i don't think i'll be able to start a peace group up anytime soon over there. My observations are first hand, not some up optimistic desires. As for my participation of peace in America i do participate in Interfaith, that is why when Steven and Y. Shulamith go out of your way to discuss the evils of Islam I get pretty mad. I'd never speak bad about anyone of Christian or Jewish faith who has not done me wrong, because you are all people of the book (i.e. Neighbors). The reason I registered on this forum and not just read (which i have been doing for a while) is to understand the more right wing Jewish community in America that will follow Israel regardless of it's actions.

Y. Shulamith I did understand the reference to the crusaders incorrectly according to your explanation.

Since this is the Gaza topic, and not welcome Fall topic, i heard an interesting perspective on the radio a couple weeks ago. If you want to understand me a little bit, listen to this clip it's only like 5 minutes. (lol NPR bashing time) http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/content.aspx?audioID=31301#comments

[Y. Shulamith]

Thanks but, no thanks, I don't need to check in with Jew-baiting cowards.....they are all over the place; that's why I come here, to get away from it for awhile....but you are welcome, along with "politically correct" but morally corrupt, NPR!!!

Damn straight, I will stand up for Israel, no matter what it's actions are....blind faith and without apology. I am not a self-loathing Jew; sorry.

[Manaia]

I saw Khaled Maashal on Aljazeera the other day giving the usual deceitful rant to Arab Leaders, unsurprisingly, with the full support of Ahmadinejad. Nice of Khaled to call for more deaths of his people to satisfy his ego, while he's nice and safe in air conditioned luxury with other Hamas 'Leaders'. What a hero.

Israel 'needs' to finish these scumbags off. Unfortunately Israel will have to do it alone as for some reason something is broken in world thinking. Not only will Israel benefit, so will the Palestinians and other Arab Nationstates.

This is the argument I've put to people in my own country, which is simple but just as relevant. Germany voted in Hitler democratically and he proceeded to capitalise on this by hijacking Germany's culture completely. Germany became Nazi and began their horrific campaigns against Jews, against their neighbours, against the world. They launched bombing raids and V2 rockets against England for which our country and others in The Commonwealth retaliated with massive bombing strikes on Germany. Civilian casualties were high but unfortunately justified. The Allies had no option but to take it to Germany to end their madness. The Nazi ideology had to be utterly crushed and the German people re-educated.

Israel is obliged to do the same to Hamas. How to re-educate the population is another question entirely. Perhaps put this question out to the world community if they care so much.

I wonder why there's so much Anti-Israeli/Jewish sentiment in this world. I can't ignore it and it almost seems like 'Well the Europeans had a go at the Jews, it's only fair we let the Arabs/'any other nutcases' have a go as they seem upset'!?! Whatever it is, it's disgusting and illogical. I mean, where's the outrage against the Sri Lankan campaign against the terrorist Tamil Tigers!?!. It's insane.

I started reading Golda Meir's 'My Life' just before Christmas, just before Operation Cast Lead. She was an amazing woman and I quote her words here as I believe they are just as relevant today:
"Finally, I wish to say that from the time I came to Palestine as a young woman, we have been forced to choose between what is more dangerous and what is less dangerous for us. At times we have all been tempted to give in to various pressures and to accept proposals that might guarantee us a little quiet for a few months, or maybe even for a few years, but that could only lead us eventually into even greater peril. We have always been faced by the question "Which is the greater danger?" And we are still in that situation or perhaps in an even graver one. The world is harsh, selfish and materialistic. It is insensitive to the sufferings of small nations. Even the most enlightened of governments, democracies that are led by decent leaders who represent fine, decent people, are not much inclined today to concern themselves with problems of justice in international relations. At a time when great nations are capable of knuckling under to blackmail and decisions are being made on the basis of big-power politics, we cannot always be expected to take their advice, and therefore, we must have the capacity and the courage to go on seeing things as they really are and to act on our own most fundamental instincts for self-preservation. So to those who ask, "What of the future?" I still have only one answer: I believe that we will have peace with our neighbours, but I am sure that no one will make peace with a weak Israel. If Israel is not strong, there will be no peace."

Israel needs to be strong, just as Israel has been in the military, in the media and in daily life, enduring the results of hatred. Israel needs to finish off Hamas and make an example to all the other terrorist scumbags who would consider evil acts.

[Mosche]

First let me adress Mosche and Madeline.
I'm on this forum not as Andak or anyone else's friend, i came here to try understanding the mind set of the pro-Israeli group.


Dude, again you are making things up! Did I ever say anything about you being Andak's friend? I really don't care if you are--it's really neither here nor there. I do take offence, however, that in addition to replying to statements in a manner that is both rude and condescending, you are also making things up.

By the way, many of us--perhaps most--have also been to the middle-east. I have visited Israel, Dubai--amazing!, Egypt, and Lebanon. I currently have relatives in Israel, and several previous students who live in Saudi Arabia and Palestine. So when you brag about your knowledge, I request that you can the condescension.

For someone who is supposedly "enlightened by the god of peace", you sure are doing your part to cause animosity.

[Manaia]

I was being funny/sarcastic. There's no sign of any pressure being put on Egypt either. Hope the ceasefire doesn't hold - Israel needs to finish the job!

Yes I think so, though with the Hamass leadership all cosy in Syria or wherever I'm not sure what a good plan would be to finish them off completely. It's the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood that needs to be unwound. Just as the allies occupied and re-educated the Germans after WW2 I think something similar has to be done for the Gazans. Perhaps by a third party?

[Madeline]

Dude, again you are making things up! Did I ever say anything about you being Andak's friend? I really don't care if you are--it's really neither here nor there. I do take offence, however, that in addition to replying to statements in a manner that is both rude and condescending, you are also making things up.

By the way, many of us--perhaps most--have also been to the middle-east. I have visited Israel, Dubai--amazing!, Egypt, and Lebanon. I currently have relatives in Israel, and several previous students who live in Saudi Arabia and Palestine. So when you brag about your knowledge, I request that you can the condescension.

For someone who is supposedly "enlightened by the god of peace", you sure are doing your part to cause animosity.

Mosche, it was I who welcomed him as a friend of either. My apologies.
Yes, we have many with first hand experience, and, I must say, a very well read and intelligent crowd indeed.. So much to learn for those who are willing.

[Manaia]

I'm glad to hear it and agree 100%.

Also it looks like Olmert, Livni, & Barack are going to abandon Gilad Shalit.
I hope the voters remember that next month and vote for Likud.

Is there any proof that he's alive at all?

[Fall]

Mosche, lol i have no beef with you and i only mentioned my travels to the mid east cause bararallu said "You live in the US, where it's all nice & dandy. That is not reality in the ME." As Madeline mentioned i was addressing her.

What a bloody great impression I've made :rolleyes:

Y. Shulamith are you a fan of Ann Coulter? :p

[Mosche]

Mosche, it was I who welcomed him as a friend of either. My apologies.
Yes, we have many with first hand experience, and, I must say, a very well read and intelligent crowd indeed.. So much to learn for those who are willing.

You have nothing to apologize for!

Fall, I've done worse things myself!

[Y. Shulamith]

A beautiful photograph!!!

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/PistisSophia/goisrealsoldier.jpg

[Y. Shulamith]

Mosche, lol i have no beef with you and i only mentioned my travels to the mid east cause bararallu said "You live in the US, where it's all nice & dandy. That is not reality in the ME." As Madeline mentioned i was addressing her.

What a bloody great impression I've made :rolleyes:

Y. Shulamith are you a fan of Ann Coulter? :p


Ann Coulter? :rofl::rofl:

[bararallu]

Through out that wall of text i read by Bararallu, i do agree on one thing.

You disagree with the rest? Well, I do lay it on. Thats because most here don't hang out long enough for me to explicate an argument. There are so many problems in the Middle East and North Africa, that we magically find ourselves, as Jews, being blamed for so much of it that it seems almost magical.

Then there is the indemic anti Jewish position of the Arab Legue and the cpetrol starved countries that are beholden to them. Want to see some balance in your though. Forget about this and every forum. Go through a simple exercise to see how things happen in the world: find a UN condemnation of Lebanon when it killed some hundreds of Palestinians not but 2 years ago, or something like 5000 killed by Syrian backed Shia Amal? Find (i'll use the term du jure) a "proportional" treatment of Jordan, as it killed 20,000 Arab Palestinians or Kuwait that ethnically cleansed 400,000 overnight? Find a UN resolution that treats Jewish refugees, actually ethnically cleansed from all Arab countries (close to 100%) w/o any association with Israel, on par that the UN treats Palestinians. Lets address where and how the Palestinians came to be, as the second measure of discourse. Then come back and we can discuss, more forthrightly, modern event.


Saudia Arabia and other countries do need to educate themselves and put more emphasis on progression, but as long as America loves the caravan raider leaders of the Saud, there won't be change anytime soon. I wouldn't mind seeing a revolution or a significant skirmish with the stupid goverment of Saudia Arabia, because i believe the only people who will fight for their king will be the military who gets payed outrageous amounts of money.

Saudi Arabia, and a few others are litterally putting Muslims in harms way by radicalizing them and pushing them into the most aggressive way to understand your religion. The first order of business is, like Kosovo, and I believe Turkey, (and as the Azeris do with Iranian mullahs on the Shia side) barring them from bringing any Imams or books or money (w/ strings attached). They are really poisoning the well. And Israel (unlike the US) is no friend of the Saudis. Even Jordan is no friend of the Saudis.


Bararallu i do live in the U.S. and i have been to Jordan and Saudia Arabia on occasion but i don't speak arabic so i don't think i'll be able to start a peace group up anytime soon over there.

I don't mean to imply that you have to start a peace movement. First of all they will hang you by your bootstraps if you so much call us reasonable human beings in some places of the ME. I mean specifically: where are the existing Peace Movements, that we have in Israel and also in the rest of the world? There's a guy here and there... but where are the movements? Egypt, theoretically a secular state, and with a signed peace treaty with us no less, imprisons all the pro democracy, pro peace bloggers it finds. Those people want to have a conversation with Israelis but we aren't even allowed that. It daily abrogates the Camp David accords on that end and others. We, from our side, reach out... we travel to Egypt and speak to people all the time. We also notice how they treat their minorities, namely the Copts (the Jews, Greeks, our brothers the Karaites they've already ethnically cleansed).


My observations are first hand, not some up optimistic desires. As for my participation of peace in America i do participate in Interfaith, that is why when Steven and Y. Shulamith go out of your way to discuss the evils of Islam I get pretty mad. I'd never speak bad about anyone of Christian or Jewish faith who has not done me wrong, because you are all people of the book (i.e. Neighbors). The reason I registered on this forum and not just read (which i have been doing for a while) is to understand the more right wing Jewish community in America that will follow Israel regardless of it's actions.

I appreciate that. Now lets get some facts right. The escalation into religion has not been generated from the Jewish side, at no point really. Even on this very Zionist forum, only a handful of Jews are preoccupied with Islam, in and of itself. And then only because it was blasted in their face by so many speeches from SA and Egypt and Iran. I'm in the far [secular] right. I have no problem with Muslims. As an Israeli I know many and have trusted my life with some. They are the same Muslims that were immensely abused by Fellahin out of Egypt and Syria. So much so that many stood in line to join the IDF (I'm speaking about our Bedouin citizens). Ditto with our Muslim Circassian population that insist on being drafted (like the Druze) into the IDF. The escalation into a civilizational/religious war was initiated by the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian Mulahs and their bastard children such as Hamas and AQ.

Are the Muslim Fur massacred in Sudan anti Islam? Well most are moderately pro Israeli we keep finding. As are some Berbers I've met in NY, as are many Kurds, Turks and ex pat Iranians and many many Muslims from the former SU. All born & raised Muslim. Why is that do you think?

[Y. Shulamith]

My husband and I were horrified to learn that 5 muslims were indicted and convicted of terrorist plots against the military in Ft. Dix, and they came from the town we live in. We were also horrified to learn that these muslims lived in and amongst us in an ethnically diverse town.

We didn't think much of the muslim threat until this happened. My husband had a terrible time realizing and comprehending that we lived in a town that produced a convicted terrorist cell and the convictions were handed down just last month.

This was a big eye-opener for the both of us. If it could happen here, it could happen anywhere.

Once again, if the Ft. Dix 5 could happen here in NJ, it could happen anyplace.

[Madeline]

My husband and I were horrified to learn that 5 muslims were indicted and convicted of terrorist plots against the military in Ft. Dix, and they came from the town we live in. We were also horrified to learn that these muslims lived in and amongst us in an ethnically diverse town.

We didn't think much of the muslim threat until this happened. My husband had a terrible time realizing and comprehending that we lived in a town that produced a convicted terrorist cell and the convictions were handed down just last month.

This was a big eye-opener for the both of us. If it could happen here, it could happen anywhere.

Once again, if the Ft. Dix 5 could happen here in NJ, it could happen anyplace.

That is what makes it so dangerous, the fact that we don't expect it. I remember thinking that the planes flying into the WTC were from some movie clip. Who would have thought it possible? I am sure the guys flying those planes blended right in as well.
That is why it is so difficult to trust. Sadly.

[takeo]

The genocidal pro-Arab left-wing troll continues talking to itself in its mirrored room, which is getting smaller and smaller... :)

Meanwhile, in the real world, Hamas has been weakened and will - God willing! - be defeated altogether!

You think so? I don't think so. We'll know in a few months. I think Hamas will be the real winner.

[takeo]

CanD


Arabs/Muslims should never have been given equal citizenship in Israel.


Why not, because they are subhumans? (Untermenschen, in German)




Besides, Jews and Christians are not equal citizens in the Arab/Muslim world.

Yes, they are. The baath-ideology by the way originated in the christian minority. Christians in Saddam's Iraq were favorised. Even the prime minister was a christian. I can't honestly imagine a Palestinian prime minister in Israel.






Why are the Jews of Israel held up to so much of a higher standard than the rest of the Middle East?

they should be held up to the same standard as the rest of the world. Warcrimes are warcrimes, occupation is occupation, no matter if they are perpetrated by Jews, Arabs or Colombians.



Israel should have rid itself of Arabs when they had the chance. Perhaps there is hope in the future, whenever a peace deal is made with the Palestinians, where Israel's Arab get to join their brothers and sisters OUT of Israel.

Israel can secede parts of Israel which are mostly inhabited by Israeli Arabs to Palestine. (in return for some settlements in Westbank for example). This will seriously reduce the number of Israeli Arabs. But I don't think Israel will force them to move to Palestine. If they do so, the carefully build up image of Israel as only western democracy in the Middle East, will collapse at once.





Hell! Why should Israel have to suffer forever with Arabs/Muslims. I don't even want to have them here, dragging down the US!

Maybe you can organise a night of destruction of Arab property and force them out. You can call it Crystalnight...






A stupid, brain-dead comment by the undereducated, unskilled takeo, who knows NOTHING about the history of the area. NOTHING!

:rolleyes: no comment



Palestinian Arabs moved into the area to take advantage of job opportunities, after Jews developed the area.

lies and nonsense. Palestinians lived there long before the arrival of the first zionists. and they owned most of the land untill 1948.

[Madeline]

Takeo, you are pricelss. Next you will tell us that Saddam was a saint, yes?:rofl:

"Yes, they are. The baath-ideology by the way originated in the christian minority. Christians in Saddam's Iraq were favorised. Even the prime minister was a christian. I can't honestly imagine a Palestinian prime minister in Israel."

[takeo]

Please do me a favour and don't bother, OK?:eek:

Well, since you ask it so nicely, I will.

[Reffo]

Well, since you ask it so nicely, I will.You will what? Conjure up more lies? :tdown: Put your foot in your mouth more? :rofl:

[takeo]

Reffo


Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state means recognition of it as a state where the Jewish people would be in the majority not necessarily as a state where only Jews are allowed to live. But it seems that he is not willing to give that recognition.

He said that he is taking Israel's demographic concerns in consideration. That means that he too believes Israel should have a Jewish majority.




Yes equal but the majority of the people would always be kept to be German. Just ask the Germans how they would react to a suggestion to change the overall demographics of Germany. They would be against it and likewise Israelis too oppose a suggestion that their system of government should allow the possibility to make the Jews a minority in their own country.

I don't think it is really a big concern at the moment in Germany. (except a few neo-nazi groups of course) In Paris, if you count the number of foreign family names compared to French family names, I think that it'll be 50/50, at least. In Brussels, capital of Belgium and autonomous region, muslims are in the majority. In Rotterdam, second city in the Netherlands, they have a muslim mayor. In Luxemburg, there are probably more foreigners living than propper Luxembourgeois. The only people who have a problem with that are the neo-nazi's and other rightwing scùm.









More of your sloganeering :eek:

Neither Jews or Arabs were governing Palestine for at least 1600 years
Both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine
Both some Jews and Arabs migrated into Palestine

Palestine had a clear and overwelming Arab majority untill 1948. If you want I can provide statistics from brittish census.




Jews bought land and worked the land


Yes, so what do you want to prove?



So can you please explain where was the colonisation and the occupation that you are talking about prior to 1948?

Well, if Arabs would buy a lot of Australian land, and than want to take over, would you accept it and let it happen?




Show me exactly where I disregarded their existence. The rest of it is some more of your sloganeering.

Well, You want the Palestinians to drop all demands concerning the refugees, and support Barak who refused to negociate about these refugees.




Only after they do the bits that I already mentioned.

Wether or not they recognise Israel as a Jewish or mainly Jewish state, is only a difference in semantics.


See my point? Israel too is mostly Jewish today yet your Fatah don't want to recognize it as a Jewish state, why?

Because not only Jews are living in Israel. But they are ready to recognise Israel as a mainly Jewish state.




Yet they still clearly insist that Israel MUST recognize their so called right of return. Why not just agree on a solution for the refugees and then give up that demand?

They want a solution too, that's what Abbas told in your own link. A solution which takes Israel's demographic concerns in consideration.



Why not indeed? Can you answer your own question?

i'm not the Israeli government. I think Israel wants to avoid isolation.



More of your double standards! The refugee problem also goes back 61 years.

But is still not solved. The UN-resolution has still not been fulfilled.



You are a liar.

I provided links on this thread, you want me to repost them?


And can Israel lob rockets at them too if they don't agree to compensate the Jewish refugees?

They can try.If a reasonable solution for the Palestinians has been achieved, than those Arab countries will recognise Israel, a first step in talking trough any remaining differences.

[takeo]

Reffo


You are forgetting about Ehud Barak's 2000/2001 peace offer again (here we go around the Mulberry Bush again :lol:)

It wasn't a genuine peace-offer. And the Palestinians were not consulted, they had to take it or leave it.




But it seems that Palestinian Arabs hold ordinary Israelis responsible for the wrongs that they perceive that was done to them and they carry out collective punishment against ordinary Israelis. Why is that Takeo?

Not everyone agrees to that. Abbas for example, clearly condamned suicide bombings against civilians, so did Arafat. Equally so in Israel, human rights group condamn their government for targetting civilians.






You are lying again but your Benny Morris concluded that Arafat was to blame for the breakdown of peace following the peace deal that Ehud Barak offered to the Palestinians in 2000/2001, what do you say about that?

That's his opinion, which I don't share. But he equally said that Israel carried out etnic cleansing on 700000 Palestinians. You call that a lie, so according to you Morris is a liar?






Peaceful if you consider a few rockets falling on someone else's head as peaceful. I wonder if you'd consider it peaceful if the rockets would fall on your head or on the heads of your relos?

How many rockets were falling? How many casualties did they cause? None of them has been fired by Hesbollah but by radical Palestinian groups, even Israel admitted.

[takeo]

Reffo


If what you say is true, then there will be peace but that's not what Abbas seems to be saying. And you are lying about Barak, we discussed this before see the previous thread (I gave you the link already)

I'm not lying about Barak, indeed we discussed this before. It wasn't a genuine offer. He didn't really want to find a solution for the refugees. According to his plan, only a few 1000 could return to Israel. That's a joke.







In what way would that betray Israeli Arabs?

Because they too are Israeli, and not jewish. Calling Israel a uniquely Jewish state would be unfair, and reduce them to second class citizens.




To use your analogy, are German and Dutch minorities betrayed just because the German and Dutch people would always ensure that they [the native Germans and Dutch] will remain a majority?

First of all the most minorities (except Jews and Sorbs in germany) are no historical minorities like the Israeli Arabs. Second, it is not an issue, except for some ultra-right wing organisations and parties.



How would you know what most Israelis want?

Don't twist my words, I said some Israeli.



OK, so you expect Israel to give up land and to demilitarise? What would they get in return, empty promises?

they will get peace and Arab general recognition in return.


Let's not! Who has ever heard of him besides you and your kind? Clinton and Dennis Ross on the other hand are NOT nonentities like this guy.


This is someone involved who speaks out openly. Unlike Ross or Clinton. It certainly indicates that within the US elite, not everyone agrees to a unilateral pro-Israel policy. And many people expect this policy to change.

[Y. Shulamith]

The United States didn't fall apart when they allowed blacks and women to vote, but I can't say that this issue is anything like what goes on in Israel. Blacks and women saw themselves as US citizens deprived of a vote.

I'm not sure how things go along with this in Israel, but I'd like to know more about who should/could/would vote and what the ramifications are.

[Reffo]

He said that he is taking Israel's demographic concerns in consideration. That means that he too believes Israel should have a Jewish majority.OK, so he shouldn't have any trouble to give formal statement and signature of a declaration to that effect right?


Yes equal but the majority of the people would always be kept to be German. Just ask the Germans how they would react to a suggestion to change the overall demographics of Germany. They would be against it and likewise Israelis too oppose a suggestion that their system of government should allow the possibility to make the Jews a minority in their own country.

I don't think it is really a big concern at the moment in Germany. (except a few neo-nazi groups of course) In Paris, if you count the number of foreign family names compared to French family names, I think that it'll be 50/50, at least. In Brussels, capital of Belgium and autonomous region, muslims are in the majority. In Rotterdam, second city in the Netherlands, they have a muslim mayor. In Luxemburg, there are probably more foreigners living than propper Luxembourgeois. The only people who have a problem with that are the neo-nazi's and other rightwing scùm.Read what I said: I said the majority and I mean the overall majority.



Neither Jews or Arabs were governing Palestine for at least 1600 years
Both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine
Both some Jews and Arabs migrated into Palestine
I mentioned the above to refute Takeo's assertion that Israel was created by colonialists and occupiers. And in true Takeo fashion he now obfuscates by going off to different tangents, pathetic :rolleyes:


Palestine had a clear and overwelming Arab majority untill 1948. If you want I can provide statistics from brittish census.So what? The Jews accepted the two state solution. The arabs were the ones to reject it. Why was that Takeo?


Yes, so what do you want to prove?More like what I want to disprove, read above.


So can you please explain where was the colonisation and the occupation that you are talking about prior to 1948?

Well, if Arabs would buy a lot of Australian land, and than want to take over, would you accept it and let it happen?Jews bought and worked the land legitimatey. So they owned the land and when the British got out of Palestine, the Jews had as much right to establish their own state as did the Arabs.

Now to your analogy: That could work the same way in Australia, but only if the Australians decide to get out of Australia and the Arabs decide to stay. Then your analogy would apply. Otherwise it doesn't.

Now please thank me for educating you.


Show me exactly where I disregarded their existence. The rest of it is some more of your sloganeering.

Well, You want the Palestinians to drop all demands concerning the refugees, and support Barak who refused to negociate about these refugees.I want them to formally drop their demand for the so called right of return, if they are serious about peace. That does not preclude other ways to resolve the issue of the refugees.


Only after they do the bits that I already mentioned.

Wether or not they recognise Israel as a Jewish or mainly Jewish state, is only a difference in semantics.To you but not to Israelis and unfortunately for you, you and your kind don't figure in this equation. I already explained my reasons before.


See my point? Israel too is mostly Jewish today yet your Fatah don't want to recognize it as a Jewish state, why?

Because not only Jews are living in Israel. But they are ready to recognise Israel as a mainly Jewish state.What are you, an idiot? I told you before that recognizing Israel as a Jewish state would mean that they recognize Israel and it's policy to maintain a Jewish majority not by draconian means but by immigration policies etc..


Yet they still clearly insist that Israel MUST recognize their so called right of return. Why not just agree on a solution for the refugees and then give up that demand?

They want a solution too, that's what Abbas told in your own link. A solution which takes Israel's demographic concerns in consideration.Are you comprehension challenged? I said, why don't they drop their demand for the right of return AFTER an agreed solution? Abbas indicated that they would NEVER drop that demand. Why?


More of your double standards! The refugee problem also goes back 61 years.

But is still not solved. The UN-resolution has still not been fulfilled.Neither has Arab violence been solved. They STARTED the WAR 61 years ago and they still want to solve everything with war and violence.

So, if you want me to forget Arab aggression because it occurred long ago, perhaps by the same token you should forget the refugees too. I mean it happened long ago, didn't you say that?


You are a liar.

I provided links on this thread, you want me to repost them? You provided no links.


And can Israel lob rockets at them too if they don't agree to compensate the Jewish refugees?

They can try.If a reasonable solution for the Palestinians has been achieved, than those Arab countries will recognise Israel, a first step in talking trough any remaining differences.That doesn't really answer my question but I am used to that with you :vomit:

[Y. Shulamith]

Well, all things being equal, I doubt that Jerusalem will ever be anything but Israeli controlled, in my lifetime, anyway. The control of Jerusalem is the real issue, I think and the rest is just jive-talk.

[Manaia]

Well, all things being equal, I doubt that Jerusalem will ever be anything but Israeli controlled, in my lifetime, anyway. The control of Jerusalem is the real issue, I think and the rest is just jive-talk.

A homeland for Jews was the main aim, traditionally and pretty well documented as Israel, where Jews were free of persecution?

lol, who says 'jive-talk' these days?;)

[Y. Shulamith]

A homeland for Jews was the main aim, traditionally and pretty well documented as Israel, where Jews were free of persecution?

lol, who says 'jive-talk' these days?;)

Ole hippies?:rock:

[Reffo]

It wasn't a genuine peace-offer. And the Palestinians were not consulted, they had to take it or leave it.It was but even if it wasn't acceptable, the answer from the Palestinians SHOULD NOT have been violence. A counter offer maybe?


But it seems that Palestinian Arabs hold ordinary Israelis responsible for the wrongs that they perceive that was done to them and they carry out collective punishment against ordinary Israelis. Why is that Takeo?

Not everyone agrees to that. Abbas for example, clearly condamned suicide bombings against civilians, so did Arafat. Equally so in Israel, human rights group condamn their government for targetting civilians.Condemnations, by both sides, are totally meaningless. The fact is that IT IS the Palestinian side which INSISTS on their right to carry out violence and war instead of negotiating. So Israel HAS EVERY RIGHT to respond in kind. And so long as this will continue, innocents will die on both sides. It is TOTALLY unavoidable in war!


You are lying again but your Benny Morris concluded that Arafat was to blame for the breakdown of peace following the peace deal that Ehud Barak offered to the Palestinians in 2000/2001, what do you say about that?

That's his opinion, which I don't share. But he equally said that Israel carried out etnic cleansing on 700000 Palestinians. You call that a lie, so according to you Morris is a liar?Here we go again :rolleyes: No! You are the one who chose to quote Benny Morris (not me) and since you did, then why don't you accept his verdict as a historian when he faults Arafat for the failure of the peace process and attributes the blame for the outbreak of violence to the Palestinians?

With regards to the refugees, you misrepresent what Benny Morris said by quoting him selectively and out of context.


Peaceful if you consider a few rockets falling on someone else's head as peaceful. I wonder if you'd consider it peaceful if the rockets would fall on your head or on the heads of your relos?

How many rockets were falling? How many casualties did they cause? None of them has been fired by Hesbollah but by radical Palestinian groups, even Israel admitted.Who cares how many? One is too many..

[Y. Shulamith]

Ask the hapless Native Americans; the losers don't get choices.....it's a take it or leave it world we live in. The sooner the Pals understand that, the better of they will be. In fact, if they just realize that, they just might get a chance to live like "normal" human beings once again, and not just pawns in an evil and deadly chessgame.

[Manaia]

Ole hippies?:rock:

oh I see :)

[Manaia]

Ask the hapless Native Americans; the losers don't get choices.....it's a take it or leave it world we live in. The sooner the Pals understand that, the better of they will be. In fact, if they just realize that, they just might get a chance to live like "normal" human beings once again, and not just pawns in an evil and deadly chessgame.

I don't know if I agree with you there. I have no doubt treaties and contracts with Native American tribes were shamefully broken by so-called allies but the 'Palestinians' were betrayed by those who called themselves their brothers and sisters. Who urged the Palestinians to leave en masse when Israelis e.g. Golda Meir, urged them to stay and that they would be treated well. All those Arab Nations were beaten soundly again and again and instead of admitting their idiocy they wallowed in their embarrassment and invented even stupider versions of Islam. Then used their 'brothers and sisters' as pawns.
Israel has acted uniquely in the world, when other less-scrupulous nations would have annihilated the palestinians by now or marched them out onto reservations. Israel has been at pains to do the right thing in such a constricted position and should be praised for that.

[Manaia]

and can someone please comment on my awesome post!?:cool: :p

I saw Khaled Maashal on Aljazeera the other day giving the usual deceitful rant to Arab Leaders, unsurprisingly, with the full support of Ahmadinejad. Nice of Khaled to call for more deaths of his people to satisfy his ego, while he's nice and safe in air conditioned luxury with other Hamas 'Leaders'. What a hero.

Israel 'needs' to finish these scumbags off. Unfortunately Israel will have to do it alone as for some reason something is broken in world thinking. Not only will Israel benefit, so will the Palestinians and other Arab Nationstates.

This is the argument I've put to people in my own country, which is simple but just as relevant. Germany voted in Hitler democratically and he proceeded to capitalise on this by hijacking Germany's culture completely. Germany became Nazi and began their horrific campaigns against Jews, against their neighbours, against the world. They launched bombing raids and V2 rockets against England for which our country and others in The Commonwealth retaliated with massive bombing strikes on Germany. Civilian casualties were high but unfortunately justified. The Allies had no option but to take it to Germany to end their madness. The Nazi ideology had to be utterly crushed and the German people re-educated.

Israel is obliged to do the same to Hamas. How to re-educate the population is another question entirely. Perhaps put this question out to the world community if they care so much.

I wonder why there's so much Anti-Israeli/Jewish sentiment in this world. I can't ignore it and it almost seems like 'Well the Europeans had a go at the Jews, it's only fair we let the Arabs/'any other nutcases' have a go as they seem upset'!?! Whatever it is, it's disgusting and illogical. I mean, where's the outrage against the Sri Lankan campaign against the terrorist Tamil Tigers!?!. It's insane.

I started reading Golda Meir's 'My Life' just before Christmas, just before Operation Cast Lead. She was an amazing woman and I quote her words here as I believe they are just as relevant today:
"Finally, I wish to say that from the time I came to Palestine as a young woman, we have been forced to choose between what is more dangerous and what is less dangerous for us. At times we have all been tempted to give in to various pressures and to accept proposals that might guarantee us a little quiet for a few months, or maybe even for a few years, but that could only lead us eventually into even greater peril. We have always been faced by the question "Which is the greater danger?" And we are still in that situation or perhaps in an even graver one. The world is harsh, selfish and materialistic. It is insensitive to the sufferings of small nations. Even the most enlightened of governments, democracies that are led by decent leaders who represent fine, decent people, are not much inclined today to concern themselves with problems of justice in international relations. At a time when great nations are capable of knuckling under to blackmail and decisions are being made on the basis of big-power politics, we cannot always be expected to take their advice, and therefore, we must have the capacity and the courage to go on seeing things as they really are and to act on our own most fundamental instincts for self-preservation. So to those who ask, "What of the future?" I still have only one answer: I believe that we will have peace with our neighbours, but I am sure that no one will make peace with a weak Israel. If Israel is not strong, there will be no peace."

Israel needs to be strong, just as Israel has been in the military, in the media and in daily life, enduring the results of hatred. Israel needs to finish off Hamas and make an example to all the other terrorist scumbags who would consider evil acts.

[Reffo]

If what you say is true, then there will be peace but that's not what Abbas seems to be saying. And you are lying about Barak, we discussed this before see the previous thread (I gave you the link already)

I'm not lying about Barak, indeed we discussed this before. It wasn't a genuine offer. He didn't really want to find a solution for the refugees. According to his plan, only a few 1000 could return to Israel. That's a joke.It's not up to the Palestinians to dictate how many should return. All the refugees were offered compensation but Jewish refugees were not. Why is that?

And as I said before, that wasn't even the reason why the talks failed. One of the reasons was Arafat's insistence on the refugees so called right of return to Israel proper.


In what way would that betray Israeli Arabs?

Because they too are Israeli, and not jewish. Calling Israel a uniquely Jewish state would be unfair, and reduce them to second class citizens.You mean Israel a state for the Jewish people, as opposed to Israel as a state for the Arab people.

The same way that Russia is a state for the Russian people and Greece is a state for the Greek people. Do you understand?


How would you know what most Israelis want?

Don't twist my words, I said some Israeli.Israel is a democracy and as such, the majority view prevails.

So just to spell it out so that even your pea size brain will grasp it: "Some" is a minority and "Most" is a majority. Do you understand now?


OK, so you expect Israel to give up land and to demilitarise? What would they get in return, empty promises?

they will get peace and Arab general recognition in return. I repeat, empty words or formal renunciations of past pretexts for war?


Let's not! Who has ever heard of him besides you and your kind? Clinton and Dennis Ross on the other hand are NOT nonentities like this guy.

This is someone involved who speaks out openly. Unlike Ross or Clinton. It certainly indicates that within the US elite, not everyone agrees to a unilateral pro-Israel policy. And many people expect this policy to change. There are lot's of people who speak out and there are also many malcontents, charlatans, attention seekers, frauds, people who accept bribes, people with personal biases, people with personal agendas and straight out nut jobs.

[Manaia]

Reffo
Because they too are Israeli, and not jewish. Calling Israel a uniquely Jewish state would be unfair, and reduce them to second class citizens.


Israel is a unique Jewish State. Where are the other Jewish States Takeo? The Jews have no other homeland. As far as I know, everyone else does? The land wasn't taken by conquerors. It was created by the sweat, blood and intellect of Jews fleeing persecution and returning to their traditional land. It was developed by Jews, who created the infrastructure and society which Israel is based upon.
It is a uniquely Jewish State. This does not make Israeli Arabs second class citizens as long as they, like any other Israeli citizen, obey the state's laws.

[Reffo]

Well put Manaia :)

Although I would put the "everyone else" phrase slightly differently. I would say that most people/nations with such a long history, link to the land and population size have their own state and others who don't, certainly aspire for self determination.

[Manaia]

Cheers mate :)
yeah I wasn't sure if all distinct racial/ethnic groups do have their own piece of land that they govern, on this earth. An argument could be made that we're all of the human species and should live under the rule of law and, say a constitution like any decent democracy (will have to come back to the Native Americans), but for some reason, some people seem to think it's excusable to persecute Jews.

[KiwiWriter]

It is not, certainly not if the largest part of Palestine remains occupied. In the case of Kuweit, noone would have accepted it.

And of course Sharon didn't want to negociate the pull-out with the Palestinian government. This reality gave Hamas a free hand. Perhaps, and that's my interpretation, was this the reason, to create division among Palestinians, in which he succeeded.

i'll reply to reffo later.


I'll put it another way, why should Israel expect the arabs to make peace if they give them large concessions when they get attacked after making what you seem to think are insignificant concessions. A concession is a concession. The fact that the Palys continue their aggression after (as you apparently think) Israel makes a minor concession indicates quite obviously to me that they would do the same or worse after a major concession.

That was my point.

BTW does anyone else see where I'm coming from???? :scratch:

[bararallu]

Deriving peace w/ unilateral concessions for our neighbors, is like throwing chum in the ocean and expecting to have a nice swim in the same water.

And I cant believe you guys have the patience to deal with this ankle biter.

He's an artifact of the Soviet propaganda machine. And we've already ascertained that he's at least 25% machine. Are you guys looking for that Star Trek moment? When Kirk or Spock point out a contradiction to the robot and make it go bonkers/explode? Well if you are, let me fill you in: Soviet robots can only go bonkers and explode if you pour 100% alcohol in them for about 10 or 20 years. And then when they shut down, they tend to live in the park a few years and try to catch pigeons, who they think are Jews. Logic doesn't work.

[KiwiWriter]

It was but even if it wasn't acceptable, the answer from the Palestinians SHOULD NOT have been violence. A counter offer maybe?



That would have been the reasonable and civilized response. I think they call that "Negotiation" :rolleyes:

[Reffo]

BTW does anyone else see where I'm coming from???? :scratch:Yep. But don't worry you are not alone, our ubiquitous neighbourhood troll has the propensity to have that effect on all of us, although not once you get to know him for what he is.

I think bararallu has him worked out :D

[Steven]

I'll put it another way, why should Israel expect the arabs to make peace if they give them large concessions when they get attacked after making what you seem to think are insignificant concessions. A concession is a concession. The fact that the Palys continue their aggression after (as you apparently think) Israel makes a minor concession indicates quite obviously to me that they would do the same or worse after a major concession.

That was my point.

BTW does anyone else see where I'm coming from???? :scratch:

I do, giving into their demands is looked upon as a sign of weakness on behalf of Israel. Which will only lead to more demands. Nothing Israel will ever do will be enough. They want Israel to cease to exist.

[KiwiWriter]

Deriving peace w/ unilateral concessions for our neighbors, is like throwing chum in the ocean and expecting to have a nice swim in the same water.

And I cant believe you guys have the patience to deal with this ankle biter.

He's an artifact of the Soviet propaganda machine. And we've already ascertained that he's at least 25% machine. Are you guys looking for that Star Trek moment? When Kirk or Spock point out a contradiction to the robot and make it go bonkers/explode? Well if you are, let me fill you in: Soviet robots can only go bonkers and explode if you pour 100% alcohol in them for about 10 or 20 years. And then when they shut down, they tend to live in the park a few years and try to catch pigeons, who they think are Jews. Logic doesn't work.

The patience is beginning to get a little stretched and it's only out of respect for the other French poster that I haven't said what I've wanted to for a couple of days now. I also wonder if he's still dreaming about that wonderful workers paradise they promised so long ago?

[KiwiWriter]

I do, giving into their demands is looked upon as a sign of weakness on behalf of Israel. Which will only lead to more demands. Nothing Israel will ever do will be enough. They want Israel to cease to exist.

Hence no matter what concessions Israel makes, they will be attacked. Tell me Takeo, how can you expect them to negotiate anything under terms like those?

[Steven]

Hence no matter what concessions Israel makes, they will be attacked. Tell me Takeo, how can you expect them to negotiate anything under terms like those?


Kiwi,
Did you see this video?

Son of Hamas Leader Leaves the Hate of Islam and Hamas
The son of Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef has come out against Hamas and has left Islam for Christianity. I am curious, do the leftists who are protesting against Israel know more about the Israel-Palestine conflict and Hamas than this young man does?

To view the video....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/01/son-of-hamas-leader-leaves-hate-of.html

[Reffo]

bararallu

You are absolutely right but I am coming at it from a different angle than you. I am not hoping to persuade the Takeos of this world, it's an impossible task for the reasons that you mentioned in your post (by the way, I could never hope to put it as aptly :)) But if you let these trolls post without highlighting and contesting the bankruptcy of their narrative and logic, then they tend to sway the ill informed. That's exactly how they managed to capture the hearts and minds of many naive youngsters in universities. They had the floor for many years while we were asleep and complacent. I don't think we can afford to let them have another free kick ... We need to tackle them anywhere, especially in our own forum.

[ItsMyJewty]

KiwiWriter: The patience is beginning to get a little stretched and it's only out of respect for the other French poster that I haven't said what I've wanted to for a couple of days now.

If you're referring to me, I'm British.

The best way to deal with this troll is to ignore its posts.

[Madeline]

Deriving peace w/ unilateral concessions for our neighbors, is like throwing chum in the ocean and expecting to have a nice swim in the same water.

And I cant believe you guys have the patience to deal with this ankle biter.

He's an artifact of the Soviet propaganda machine. And we've already ascertained that he's at least 25% machine. Are you guys looking for that Star Trek moment? When Kirk or Spock point out a contradiction to the robot and make it go bonkers/explode? Well if you are, let me fill you in: Soviet robots can only go bonkers and explode if you pour 100% alcohol in them for about 10 or 20 years. And then when they shut down, they tend to live in the park a few years and try to catch pigeons, who they think are Jews. Logic doesn't work.
Absolutely. Bravo.:clap:
Logic doesn't work, 100% alcohol does not work...fast enough. Ignoring him might.
"Ankle biters" like him distract from the real issue, distract those who want to learn, want to be informed.

[takeo]

Absolutely. Bravo.:clap:
Logic doesn't work, 100% alcohol does not work...fast enough. Ignoring him might.
"Ankle biters" like him distract from the real issue, distract those who want to learn, want to be informed.

You mean those who accept "THE TRUTH" (that Arab are subhuman filth, that peace with them is impossible, blabla)

OK, fine, when you want to debate with people hwo think just like you. You can have a nice debate about how you're going to get rid of the Palestinians: drowning them in the Jordan River or in the mediterranean, dropping them in airplanes over Jordan, etc. Enjoy!

But just realise that youe opinion is not the mainstream one, anywhere in the world. History will not depend upon you people, but upon leaders such as Obama, which you despise. I hope he won't let the world down. In the meanwhile I'm still willing to debate with reasonable people(liberal-minded, Labor, Kadima, etc.), even if they are pro-Israel, but they are few and far between on this forum. Most people belong to the ultra-rightwing frindges.
But the worst is that most of you aren't even Israeli, just a bunch of yankees (or aussies or Kiwis etc.) who are in many cases not more connected to Israel than I am.(how many of you speak and read Hebrew fluently? I doubt that everyone even visited Israel, let alone any Arab countries. But of course that doesn't stop you from judging them, eventough you don't know anything about them)

Oh by the way I see you're from mid-western USA. It would be TOO EASY to make jokes about that. But since I, unlike you, don't like personal attacks and insults, since I, unlike you, rather want to focus on content rather than on the person, I'm going to refrain from it. (altough it's iching...)

[ItsMyJewty]

takeotroll: I doubt that all of you even visited Israel

Hi Troll. I doubt you've ever even lived in Israel.

[Madeline]

Hi Troll. I doubt you've ever even lived in Israel.
Did you have a nice night? How is the weather in France?:cool:
Someone wrote that we want to drown all Palos. Did you read any of that here? I didn't think so.
Someone also wrote that our opinion isn't the most favorable one. Do you care?

[Madeline]

Making fun of MW USA. Ok then.
*Possums sleep in the middle of the road with their feet in the air.


*There are 10,000 types of spiders. All 10,000 live in IL , plus a couple no one's seen before.


*If it grows, it sticks; if it crawls, it bites.


*Onced and Twiced are words.

*You don't do the laundry, you do the warsh (yes, we spell it with an r)

*It is not a shopping cart; it is a buggy.


*People actually grow and eat corn.


*'Fixinto' is one word.


*There is no such thing as 'lunch.' There is only dinner and then supper.


*Iced tea is appropriate for all meals and you start drinking it when you're two. We do like a little tea with our sugar!


*Backwards and forwards means 'I know everything about you.'


*DJeet is actually a phrase meaning 'Did you eat?'


*You don't have to wear a watch because it doesn't matter what time it is. You work until you're done or it's too dark to see.


*You don't PUSH buttons, you MASH them.


*You measure distance in minutes.


*You'll probably have to switch from 'heat' to 'A/C' in the same day.


*'Fix' is a verb. Example: 'I'm fixing to go to the store.'


*All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit, vegetable, grain, insect or animal.


*You install security lights on your house and garage and leave both unlocked.


*You carry jumper cables in your car . . . for your OWN car.


*There are only four spices: salt, pepper, Tabasco and ketchup.


*The local papers cover national and international news on one page, but require 6 pages for local gossip and sports.


*The first day of deer season is a national holiday.


*100 degrees Fahrenheit is 'a little warm.'


*We have four seasons: Almost Summer, Summer, still Summer and Christmas.


*Going to Wal-mart is a favorite past time known as 'goin' Wal-martin' or off to 'Wally World.'


*A cool snap (below 70 degrees) is good pinto-bean weather.


*A carbonated soft drink isn't a soda, cola or pop. . . . it's a Coke, regardless of brand or flavor. Example: 'What kinda coke you want?'


*Fried waleye is the other white meat.


*We don't need no stinking driver's ed . . . if our mama says we can drive, we can drive.

[takeo]

bararallu

You are absolutely right but I am coming at it from a different angle than you. I am not hoping to persuade the Takeos of this world, it's an impossible task for the reasons that you mentioned in your post (by the way, I could never hope to put it as aptly :)) But if you let these trolls post without highlighting and contesting the bankruptcy of their narrative and logic, then they tend to sway the ill informed. That's exactly how they managed to capture the hearts and minds of many naive youngsters in universities. They had the floor for many years while we were asleep and complacent. I don't think we can afford to let them have another free kick ... We need to tackle them anywhere, especially in our own forum.

Maybe the reason why young university students don't buy your nonsensical arguments is because they are intelligent, and can think for their own. University students, and smart people in general, generally tend to be more leftwing than the mainstream population. They can check the sources for themselves, and do so. They don't have to rely on biased media, owned by one single Australian in many cases, as most Americans or Australians. Many young people also like to travel, especially Europeans and Australians, and than they can see with their own eyes what's going on, for example in Israel or the Arab world. I never met an American traveller during my many travels who voted for Bush. And even most young Israeli travellers around the world are much more reasonable than most of you folks here if you discuss with them.

[ItsMyJewty]

Madeline Did you have a nice night? How is the weather in France?
Someone wrote that we want to drown all Palos. Did you read any of that here? I didn't think so.
Someone also wrote that our opinion isn't the most favorable one. Do you care?

Hi Madeline. The weather's fine here. Been a bit cold here recently, but temperatures have risen a bit now. I'll soon be able to resume my jogging in the forest here. How's the weather where you are?

Someone said something about visiting Israel and then seemed to disappear... :)

[Madeline]

Hi Madeline. The weather's fine here. Been a bit cold here recently, but temperatures have risen a bit now. I'll soon be able to resume my jogging in the forest here. How's the weather where you are?

Someone said something about visiting Israel and then seemed to disappear... :)

It is very cold, and we have lots of snow.
Did you read about the fact that we are all stupid, because some think we did not attend them higher learning places, whatever you may want to call them? Me is too stupid to figure the word. Now what do I do?

[ItsMyJewty]

Madeline: It is very cold, and we have lots of snow.
Did you read about the fact that we are all stupid, because some think we did not attend them higher learning places, whatever you may want to call them? Me is too stupid to figure the word. Now what do I do?

I hope the weather will be improvin' for you soon, unless you be likin' the snow. Me not able to read posts of the troll - need maybe to be goin' back to the higher place of the education or even to the school. Need maybe also to be doin' a bit more of the travellin' to get a more broad view of the world. Only then able will we be to see things more clearly.;)

[Madeline]

I hope the weather will be improvin' for you soon, unless you be likin' the snow. Me not able to read posts of the troll - need maybe to be goin' back to the higher place of the education or even to the school. Need maybe also to be doin' a bit more of the travellin' to get a more broad view of the world. Only then able will we be to see things more clearly.;)

I am not sure if you can read this, but would you please comment on the following? I can't comprehend it...
Netanyahu: The Job's Not Over Yet



Reported: 18:24 PM - Jan/18/2009



(IsraelNN.com) Opposition Leader Binyamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that the military's job in Gaza is not over yet. Speaking to reporters following a visit to casualties of terrorist fire who are recuperating in Be'er Sheva's Soroka Medical Center , the Likud party leader said, "To tell the truth, the Israel Defense Forces landed a blow to the head of Hamas, but unfortunately, the work is not over. Hamas still controls Gaza and will continue to smuggle weapons in through the Philadelphi Corridor."

He added, “I believe that in the face of Hamas's terror and its Iranian backing, we must show no weakness and we must show a resolute, iron fist, until the enemy is vanquished.”
__________________

[Mediocrates]

Well consider this - The EU and UN have proposed aiding Gaza to the tune of $2 billion dollars to rebuild and they are willing to deal directly with Hamas to do it. They just signaled that they're willing to give them $2 billion dollars in military aid, effectively. $2 billion dollars that will flow back to Iran for their nuclear program.

[Mediocrates]

In the meantime there are 20 million unemployed and a 100 million illiterates in the Arab world. Funneling money to eradicate Israel is more important to them.

[Madeline]

In the meantime there are 20 million unemployed and a 100 million illiterates in the Arab world. Funneling money to eradicate Israel is more important to them.

I am not quite sure why they (UN and EU) are needed, except for aiding and abetting. But what do I know?

[Madeline]

muslims doesnt hate and want to kill all jews just those living in israel i.e:zionist
i am sorry the war was over and i dedicate this song to our soldiers and all of you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GQrJndpbzc
Your first sentence is a clear indication or your ignorance. Israel belongs to the Jews. Why the hay you have something to say about that is beyond me.
And no, I won't bother with your 'song'.

[scattergood]

Well, the facts are that Israel forcefully carried out ethnic cleansing of 700000 people. This fact is denied by many people on this forum, and has been omitted from Israeli schoolbooks and official history.
I never said that he sees it as a kind of nazi/European colonising project, on the contrary he defends it. But facts remain facts. I just said that Israel forcefully cleansed 700000 Palestinians. You said I was lying.

No, the facts are that 60-70% of the Arabs who left during the 1948 War NEVER SAW A SINGLE ISRAELI. That the exodus of the Arabs, while desired by some of the Israeli military and political leaders, was more so encouraged and welcomed by the Arab Liberation Army. The claim that 700K people were ethnically cleansed, while 500K never saw a Jew forcing them out, and nearly all heard the cries "get out of the way so we can kill the Jews" by their Arab brothers is a clear sign of your narrow minded biased revisionism.

Thanks for making it sooooo clear.

[Y. Shulamith]

Hi Troll. I doubt you've ever even lived in Israel.

Well, trolling around, is lots of fun, eh?

I've been to Israel twice.....had a good time the second time around.....the first time, I arrived 5 days before the Yom Kippur War, surprise, surprise!!:clap:

I pruned Olive trees at Kibbutz Gat, so I didn't waste my time there, either....:rock:

[CanDo]

Well consider this - The EU and UN have proposed aiding Gaza to the tune of $2 billion dollars to rebuild and they are willing to deal directly with Hamas to do it. They just signaled that they're willing to give them $2 billion dollars in military aid, effectively. $2 billion dollars that will flow back to Iran for their nuclear program.

According to the news, this has changed. The EU is no longer willing to part with the $2 billion as long as Hamas is in charge.

EU official: Gaza won't be reconstructed under Hamas's rule

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292904738&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

In the meantime, Arab/Muslim nations have pledged billions (Saudi $1 billion) to rebuild Gaza. What a joke! :rofl: The Arab world has always pledged big bucks to help the Palestinians, but only a little aid has trickled through to Gaza or the West Bank! Why? Because the only use that the Arab/Muslim world has for the Palestinians (whom the Arab/Muslim world considers lowly and worthless), is using the Palestinians as canon fodder, or keeping them in misery so that their misery can be blamed on Jews.

OTOH, if the greedy, corrupt, overly-plump Arab leaders actually do part with some money, Israel should wait until all construction is finished in Gaza, and then flatten it again! :clap:

[Y. Shulamith]

Let's see how many weapons they can smuggle in Gaza and start lobbing things at Israel and then give them more of the same that the Pali's just got.....let's just see.....the stupidity of the Arab mind is unique, to say the least.

[Toadstool46]

These people don't want peace, they want to erase Palestine and Palestinians off the earth.


Ok please Were exactly is Palestine and who are the Palestinians? I don't see any Palestine on any map and I believe the term Palestinian is a slang/derogatory term for Arabs given by the Romans to p*ss off both the Arabs and the Jews.

Also... who is it that doesn't want peace? Where have you ever heard anyone say they want to erase palestine.... Israel only wants to live in peace and raise their families, worship their God, go to work, prosper as a nation.

I believe Israel is the only one of the two that really wants peace. The Muz people want No Israel.

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by Madeline
I am not sure if you can read this, but would you please comment on the following? I can't comprehend it...
Netanyahu: The Job's Not Over Yet



Reported: 18:24 PM - Jan/18/2009



(IsraelNN.com) Opposition Leader Binyamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that the military's job in Gaza is not over yet. Speaking to reporters following a visit to casualties of terrorist fire who are recuperating in Be'er Sheva's Soroka Medical Center , the Likud party leader said, "To tell the truth, the Israel Defense Forces landed a blow to the head of Hamas, but unfortunately, the work is not over. Hamas still controls Gaza and will continue to smuggle weapons in through the Philadelphi Corridor."

He added, “I believe that in the face of Hamas's terror and its Iranian backing, we must show no weakness and we must show a resolute, iron fist, until the enemy is vanquished.”

Ah yes, my reading capacities have returned now and I was delighted to read your post. Let's hope he wins the elections and the job is COMPLETED.

[Madeline]

Ah yes, my reading capacities have returned now and I was delighted to read your post. Let's hope he wins the elections and the job is COMPLETED.

:rock:Isn't it amazing what happens when the 'higher educated' leave us be?

[Rob]

takeo: University students, and smart people in general, generally tend to be more leftwing than the mainstream population.

Ah yes, as soon as they start to make a career and see the real world instead of living in their pink ivory towers most become right-wing voters.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by takeo
These people don't want peace, they want to erase Palestine and Palestinians off the earth.

If that is what Israel wanted, it would of happened already. You are by far the dumbest person here.

[Y. Shulamith]

Ah yes, as soon as they start to make a career and see the real world instead of living in their pink ivory towers most become right-wing voters.

Pfftttt...indeed:

Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
John Galsworthy

[bararallu]

Ok please Were exactly is Palestine and who are the Palestinians? I don't see any Palestine on any map and I believe the term Palestinian is a slang/derogatory term for Arabs given by the Romans to p*ss off both the Arabs and the Jews.

Almost, there are actually two issues, and insult and an insult to injury.

Romans (Hadrian), as a measure of vengeance and Jew hate for Bar Kohba's victory over them for a few years, renamed the area from Judea to Syria-Palestina (which encompasses their governing province: most of the Levant) and Jerushalaim as Aelia Capitolina. The closest Arabs were in Jordan at the time so it didn't relate to them at all. The area was shortened to Palestina (& the Arabs cant even properly pronounce the word, LOL. ), and for the longest time everyone that lived there, Arab, Druze, Turk, Armenian and Jew were Palestinians. The Soviet Union (http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=12689) (and their Romanian Proxies (http://www.weizmann.ac.il/home/comartin/israel/pacepa-wsj.html)) and Egypt devised a new scheme; creating a nationality where non existed (http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=1DC862A4-B416-4C67-B0A1-A49FDC3C2164).

viz.

However, in response to the Six-Daywar and Arafat’s mentoring by the Soviets and their allies, the PLO revised its Charter on July 17, 1968, to remove the language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

It was created for the sole reason of undermining Jewish historical claims and facts on the ground. Since previous to that, when all Gazans were Egyptians (*and spoke in Egyptian dialect of Arabic) and Judea-Samaria Arabs (spoke more Levantine Arabic, all with different clans between places to boot) were Jordanians, no one claimed to be a "Palestinian". There is about as much in common between Gazan Arabs and West Bank Arabs as there is incommon between Syrians and Egyptians: they are Arabs and majority Muslims, thats it.

BTW, This all happened in the mid sixties, the years the PLO were formulated and advised by Syrian, Egyptian and Soviet intelligence.

[Rob]

If that is what Israel wanted, it would of happened already. You are by far the dumbest person here.

He is not dumb IMHO, he puts his extreme ideas in an intellectual package and then twists and distorts. He is far more dangerous than the average dumb person in the streets.

-He is the one that closes his eyes for certain genocides and is trying to justify others.
-He is the one that sooo badly wants everybody to have genocidal ideas towards the Pals, while this is not the case. He does this by misquoting everybody
-He is a true hate monger!

[Madeline]

He is not dumb IMHO, he puts his extreme ideas in an intellectual package and then twists and distorts. He is far more dangerous than the average dumb person in the streets.

-He is the one that closes his eyes for certain genocides and is trying to justify others.
-He is the one that sooo badly wants everybody to have genocidal ideas towards the Pals, while this is not the case. He does this by misquoting everybody
-He is a true hate monger!

You make perfect sense. Well said.:clap:

[KiwiWriter]

Kiwi,
Did you see this video?

Son of Hamas Leader Leaves the Hate of Islam and Hamas
The son of Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef has come out against Hamas and has left Islam for Christianity. I am curious, do the leftists who are protesting against Israel know more about the Israel-Palestine conflict and Hamas than this young man does?

To view the video....
http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/01/son-of-hamas-leader-leaves-hate-of.html

They'd like to think they do, but that's because he doesn't have a phd or something and hasn't correctly referenced. I think the guy's also written a book and maybe some articles.

[KiwiWriter]

If you're referring to me, I'm British.

The best way to deal with this troll is to ignore its posts.

Yeah, I was. Which British are you btw english, scotish or welsh?

[KiwiWriter]

I pruned Olive trees at Kibbutz Gat, so I didn't waste my time there, either....:rock:


How tall do they grow? I've mainly pruned Pine, which is real fun if you don't like heights and are stuck on the side of a hill.

[KiwiWriter]

Ah yes, as soon as they start to make a career and see the real world instead of living in their pink ivory towers most become right-wing voters.

I also like this quote that I heard from I think an American; "A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet."

[Reffo]

Maybe the reason why young university students don't buy your nonsensical arguments is because they are intelligent, and can think for their own.The trouble is not that they don't buy Israel's arguments, the trouble is that they have not been given the chance to hear Israel's proper arguments. I don't care how intelligent anyone is, if they get bombarded continually by one sided propaganda they get fooled at least for a while. You should know that Takeo, your Commies clearly understood and applied that practice and it worked for them for a while.

And for the last 35 years or so your Jihadi and other assorted Arabs too were emulating Nazi and Communist propaganda techniques and they have had some successes but you and they will find that sooner rather than later intelligent people will wake up to them. Who was it that said: "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time"?

[bararallu]

I don't care how intelligent anyone is, if they get bombarded continually by one sided propaganda they get fooled at least for a while. You should know that Takeo, your Commies clearly understood and applied that practice and it worked for them for a while.


"A lie told often enough becomes the truth" -Lenin

[Y. Shulamith]

How tall do they grow? I've mainly pruned Pine, which is real fun if you don't like heights and are stuck on the side of a hill.

They were tall enough; taller than I am/was and I am 5 foot, 6.5 inches. It was extremely arduous work as we had pruners that were like clippers and the suckers that we were pruning were really thick and sprouting out from towards the ground, when meant lots of leaning over. That was awhile ago, before I'd had to have back surgery, about 5 years after my olive pruning days!!!

:rock:

[ItsMyJewty]

KiwiWriter: Yeah, I was. Which British are you btw english, scotish or welsh?

English.

[Reffo]

bararallu

Here is a typical example: In an interview yesterday on one of the FM stations, a pro Arab Takeo type who was presenting the Arab side of the story, tried to sell the lie (and I think he was quite successful because many people are not informed about the History of the Middle East) that the Palestinian Arabs have been fighting Israeli "Occupation" since 1948. This is how he did it:

He said that in 1948 the UN voted for two states but only a Jewish state was created which usurped part of the Palestinian state. And after 1967 the Palestinian Arabs lost the remainder of their state ...

Although the station also allowed a well known politician to present Israel's side of the story, it was obvious that he was not given the chance to expose the inherent lie of the Takeo type. What lie? The lie that was skillfully presented by an obvious omission which would have given the listener an entirely different perspective. And what was that omission? Of course he forgot (deliberately) to mention that the Jews accepted the two state solution, the Arabs DID NOT! The Arabs started wars of extermination against the Jews both in 1948 and in 1967 and that's how they lost their land and they refused to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people ever since. That's why Israel has been holding on to the land.

[Madeline]

bararallu

Here is a typical example: In an interview yesterday on one of the FM stations, a pro Arab Takeo type who was presenting the Arab side of the story, tried to sell the lie (and I think he was quite successful because many people are not informed about the History of the Middle East) that the Palestinian Arabs have been fighting Israeli "Occupation" since 1948. This is how he did it:

He said that in 1948 the UN voted for two states but only a Jewish state was created which usurped part of the Palestinian state. And after 1967 the Palestinian Arabs lost the remainder of their state ...

Although the station also allowed a well known politician to present Israel's side of the story, it was obvious that he was not given the chance to expose the inherent lie of the Takeo type. What lie? The lie that was skillfully presented by an obvious omission which would have given the listener an entirely different perspective. And what was that omission? Of course he forgot (deliberately) to mention that the Jews accepted the two state solution, the Arabs DID NOT! The Arabs started wars of extermination against the Jews both in 1948 and in 1967 and that's how they lost their land and they refused to recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people ever since. That's why Israel has been holding on to the land.
I am not surprised at this. It is spin, and that is what they are good at. Cut anyone off t who defends the truth, don't let them speak, because the truth hurts those who have to lose that which is build on lies.

[bararallu]

Absolutely right Reffo.

And it will continue to be so for a long time still. Of course, there are times that the organs that hate the self determined Jews loose their plot (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32494_BBC_Flying_Pig_Watch) and aren't able to pre-program their propaganda. That is a nice thing indeed, as rare as it happens.

[Manaia]

Maybe the reason why young university students don't buy your nonsensical arguments is because they are intelligent, and can think for their own. University students, and smart people in general, generally tend to be more leftwing than the mainstream population. They can check the sources for themselves, and do so. They don't have to rely on biased media, owned by one single Australian in many cases, as most Americans or Australians. Many young people also like to travel, especially Europeans and Australians, and than they can see with their own eyes what's going on, for example in Israel or the Arab world. I never met an American traveller during my many travels who voted for Bush. And even most young Israeli travellers around the world are much more reasonable than most of you folks here if you discuss with them.
These are huge assumptions based solely on what you'd have us believe is your own experience. Rather than any facts. The Islamic radicalisation of Egypt began with young impressionable university students. They helped drag the Arab world backwards a few centuries. Young university students can guide a culture's thinking and actions negatively don't you think?

[takeo]

Hi Troll. I doubt you've ever even lived in Israel.

I didn't. Maybe you did but most here didn't. And many didn't even visit the region just once. By the way my Israeli (mostly Jewish) friends of Gush Shalom lived all their lifes in Israel. They are much more radical than I am in condamning the Israeli state policy.

[Madeline]

I didn't. Maybe you did but most here didn't. And many didn't even visit the region just once. By the way my Israeli (mostly Jewish) friends of Gush Shalom lived all their lifes in Israel. They are much more radical than I am in condamning the Israeli state policy.

That makes them the experts then, being your friend....?

[Sharona]

I lived in Israel.

My husbands family were booted out of Egypt (which was their home) by Nasser. The amounts taken off the Jews Nasser booted out in respect of property, assets, jewellery - even things like stamp collections and cameras - is estimated to be around $10 billion. It was never given back.

Takeo - what do you make of that?

[Mediocrates]

And there Americans living in the US who want to see it burn to the ground.

[takeo]

The trouble is not that they don't buy Israel's arguments, the trouble is that they have not been given the chance to hear Israel's proper arguments. I don't care how intelligent anyone is, if they get bombarded continually by one sided propaganda they get fooled at least for a while. You should know that Takeo, your Commies clearly understood and applied that practice and it worked for them for a while.

And for the last 35 years or so your Jihadi and other assorted Arabs too were emulating Nazi and Communist propaganda techniques and they have had some successes but you and they will find that sooner rather than later intelligent people will wake up to them. Who was it that said: "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time"?

Of course they've been given the chance. The pro-Israeli point of view is propagated in the Murdoch-owned media for example. Leftist and communist media in the western world and Israel don't have the means nor the distribution to compete.
And do you honestly believe that young Europeans and Israeli have any sympathy for Jihad or fundamentalism? They just, independently, judge, that the Israeli policy is wrong and inhuman, no matter how bad those Jihadis are. They've learned about international law, that all peoples are equal, that every people has the right to have an own state, and that every human life has some value, no matter if they are Jewish or Arab lifes. They've learned all those things, and so how very different daily reality is. Somehow, the leftist arguments are more appealing to them than the rightist ones.

Indeed you can't fool all the people, all the time. Bush tried so concerning Iraq, but ultimately he failed. Because people, like me and many others, constantly shattered the lies that he and his propaganda-machinery propagated (for example on this forum). At first, we were crying in the desert (I mean in the US), but eventually Americans came to the conclusion that we were right, and the lies have been exposed. I think I was the only one on this forum saying that Saddam probably didn't have any WMD's. And I've been personally insulted by people like you, much worse than right now. My nickname was "saddamite", only because I said this war was not necessary and unjust, and would strenghten al-quaida and the extremists. In a few months I'm afraid it will become clear that this latest war strengtened Hamas. Let's just wait and see.

[KiwiWriter]

I am not surprised at this. It is spin, and that is what they are good at. Cut anyone off t who defends the truth, don't let them speak, because the truth hurts those who have to lose that which is build on lies.

And when all else fails, there's always hysterical ranting of slogans

[takeo]

That makes them the experts then, being your friend....?

No, but they have as much right to voice their opinion as you and me.

[takeo]

And when all else fails, there's always hysterical ranting of slogans

That's what most posters on this forum do, all the time. (hysterical ranting of slogans, and of course personal insults)

[takeo]

And there Americans living in the US who want to see it burn to the ground.

a fine example of hysterical ranting.

[takeo]

I lived in Israel.

My husbands family were booted out of Egypt (which was their home) by Nasser. The amounts taken off the Jews Nasser booted out in respect of property, assets, jewellery - even things like stamp collections and cameras - is estimated to be around $10 billion. It was never given back.

Takeo - what do you make of that?

I already said that Egyptian Jews have been persecuted, and of course I don't agree to that, I also don't think it contributed to Egyptian development, as these Jews represented a lot of intelligentia and skilled people. How exactly did they leave, they were forced to leave at gunpoint? (like many Palestinians in Israel)
But how's that an argument? Is this a justification for Israel to do just the same?

[Madeline]

I already said that Egyptian Jews have been persecuted, and of course I don't agree to that, I also don't think it contributed to Egyptian development, as these Jews represented a lot of intelligentia and skilled people. How exactly did they leave, they were forced to leave at gunpoint? (like many Palestinians in Israel)
But how's that an argument? Is this a justification for Israel to do just the same?

Whoa, not only are you presumptuous, you are rude as well.

[takeo]

These are huge assumptions based solely on what you'd have us believe is your own experience. Rather than any facts. The Islamic radicalisation of Egypt began with young impressionable university students. They helped drag the Arab world backwards a few centuries. Young university students can guide a culture's thinking and actions negatively don't you think?

You have to know that Al-Azar is an Islamic university. Most university students, especially in the West, tend to be liberal or leftist-minded.
And I don't think islamisation is caused by university students. It is caused by a general feeling of impotence faced with the many injustices and poverty they have to undergo. Whenever people live in misery and injustice, they turn to God. That's been the case in Western Europe as well, and is still the case in Africa and the muslim world. Now that there's affuence in Western Europe, people quit religion. The rich Saudi's only use religion as politics, I don't believe these people who order call-girls and lots of champaign when they go abroad are really religious.

[Manaia]

they were forced to leave at gunpoint? (like many Palestinians in Israel)

When were the Palestinians forced to leave Israel at gunpoint?

[takeo]

Whoa, not only are you presumptuous, you are rude as well.

Yes, people are rude to me too. People call me throll, liar, etc. I think that's rude. (not that I care, it just demonstrates their weakness)
What's rude about my response to sharona?

[takeo]

When were the Palestinians forced to leave Israel at gunpoint?

In 1948

[Bheeshma]

Is Israel pulling out its troops from gaza due to Obama's swearing in? It seems like a dumb thing to do. What was the point of operation against hezbollah and hamas when the goals were not achieved in either case? I hope the next time (and make no mistake there will be a next..) they simply flatten the hamas out of existence.

Idiots like Takeo who choose to selectively condemn certain persecutions but not other based on the ethnicity or religion are simply not worth responding. The best reply is to remind them of the cost the "palestinians" had to pay due to Hamas : 1300.

[Manaia]

You have to know that Al-Azar is an Islamic university. Most university students, especially in the West, tend to be liberal or leftist-minded.
And I don't think islamisation is caused by university students. It is caused by a general feeling of impotence faced with the many injustices and poverty they have to undergo. Whenever people live in misery and injustice, they turn to God. That's been the case in Western Europe as well, and is still the case in Africa and the muslim world. Now that there's affuence in Western Europe, people quit religion.

No people turn to Communism too. In enlightened countries they turn to a Constitution and the Rule of Law. The separation of Church and State.
The Islamisation of Egypt (which later spread) began with young, impressionable students. 'Feeling' rather than 'thinking'.

[Manaia]

Originally Posted by Manaia
When were the Palestinians forced to leave Israel at gunpoint?
In 1948
____________

In 1948

What was the exact situation when the Palestinians were forced to leave Israel at gunpoint? Can you provide an exact example?

[takeo]

Almost, there are actually two issues, and insult and an insult to injury.

Romans (Hadrian), as a measure of vengeance and Jew hate for Bar Kohba's victory over them for a few years, renamed the area from Judea to Syria-Palestina (which encompasses their governing province: most of the Levant) and Jerushalaim as Aelia Capitolina. The closest Arabs were in Jordan at the time so it didn't relate to them at all. The area was shortened to Palestina (& the Arabs cant even properly pronounce the word, LOL. ), and for the longest time everyone that lived there, Arab, Druze, Turk, Armenian and Jew were Palestinians. The Soviet Union (http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=12689) (and their Romanian Proxies (http://www.weizmann.ac.il/home/comartin/israel/pacepa-wsj.html)) and Egypt devised a new scheme; creating a nationality where non existed (http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=1DC862A4-B416-4C67-B0A1-A49FDC3C2164).

viz.

However, in response to the Six-Daywar and Arafat’s mentoring by the Soviets and their allies, the PLO revised its Charter on July 17, 1968, to remove the language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

It was created for the sole reason of undermining Jewish historical claims and facts on the ground. Since previous to that, when all Gazans were Egyptians (*and spoke in Egyptian dialect of Arabic) and Judea-Samaria Arabs (spoke more Levantine Arabic, all with different clans between places to boot) were Jordanians, no one claimed to be a "Palestinian". There is about as much in common between Gazan Arabs and West Bank Arabs as there is incommon between Syrians and Egyptians: they are Arabs and majority Muslims, thats it.

BTW, This all happened in the mid sixties, the years the PLO were formulated and advised by Syrian, Egyptian and Soviet intelligence.

A lot of lies and nonsense. Most Gazans, as most inhabitants of the Westbank, are descendants of people who have been etnically cleansed from Israel propper.

[takeo]

Originally Posted by takeo
These people don't want peace, they want to erase Palestine and Palestinians off the earth.

If that is what Israel wanted, it would of happened already. You are by far the dumbest person here.

I didn't say Israel wants it, I'm talking about the nutheads on this forum, such as you. And these people don't even represent Israel. Many Israeli believe in a two-state solution so does Israeli prime minister and many others. Most people on this forum don't.

[Madeline]

You have to know that Al-Azar is an Islamic university. Most university students, especially in the West, tend to be liberal or leftist-minded.
And I don't think islamisation is caused by university students. It is caused by a general feeling of impotence faced with the many injustices and poverty they have to undergo. Whenever people live in misery and injustice, they turn to God. That's been the case in Western Europe as well, and is still the case in Africa and the muslim world. Now that there's affuence in Western Europe, people quit religion. The rich Saudi's only use religion as politics, I don't believe these people who order call-girls and lots of champaign when they go abroad are really religious.

It is all part of soft Jihad.

[takeo]

Originally Posted by takeo
These people don't want peace, they want to erase Palestine and Palestinians off the earth.

If that is what Israel wanted, it would of happened already. You are by far the dumbest person here.

I didn't say Israel wants it, I'm talking about the nutheads on this forum, such as you.

[takeo]

It is all part of soft Jihad.

So leftists and human rights organisations are also Jihadists? Gush Shalom are Jihadists? :scratch:

[bararallu]

They've learned about international law, that all peoples are equal, that every people has the right to have an own state

Ah nice, then we should expect you to support independence for Alsatians, and Corsicans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica), and Brettons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_nationalism), and Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Basque_Country) and Chechens, and many of the other ethic minority areas in the Imperially Colonized Russia; especially those areas/okrugs that are oil and gas bearing... you wouldnt deny native Siberians the option to self determine on their soil then would you? Oh and there is Iran and it's rather unhappy minorities, where shall we start on that? :)

Oh, on the topic of self determination and reasons for which, can you perhaps let us know why France hasn't signed on to the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/157.htm)?

[takeo]

No people turn to Communism too. In enlightened countries they turn to a Constitution and the Rule of Law. The separation of Church and State.
The Islamisation of Egypt (which later spread) began with young, impressionable students. 'Feeling' rather than 'thinking'.

Univeristy students always turn against the injustices of their society. I've been in Iran, and almost all university students (the only ones speaking English) hate the regime passionately.And there was a time when they turned against the much hated Shah-regime, and his master the US. In Cuba many university students hate Castro. In the US most university students hate Bush.
Islamisation is one way to express disconfort and hate against the current regime in Egypt. In Palestine people supported Hamas because Fatah was corrupted and they hated Israel. Now this support will even grow stronger.

[bararallu]

So leftists and human rights organisations are also Jihadists? Gush Shalom are Jihadists? :scratch:

Judenrat guards were neither German nor Nazis per se; they were enablers though for a lot of death and misery. There is a term you should get familiar with "Aiding and abetting (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a033.htm)".

[Madeline]

"You have to know that Al-Azar is an Islamic university. Most university students, especially in the West, tend to be liberal or leftist-minded.
And I don't think islamisation is caused by university students. It is caused by a general feeling of impotence faced with the many injustices and poverty they have to undergo."
It is this what soft Jihad is focused on, not on those who are secure in their own skin.

[takeo]

Ah nice, then we should expect you to support independence for Alsatians, and Corsicans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica), and Brettons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_nationalism), and Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Basque_Country) and Chechens, and many of the other ethic minority areas in the Imperially Colonized Russia; especially those areas/okrugs that are oil and gas bearing... you wouldnt deny native Siberians the option to self determine on their soil then would you? Oh and there is Iran and it's rather unhappy minorities, where shall we start on that? :)

Oh, on the topic of self determination and reasons for which, can you perhaps let us know why France hasn't signed on to the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/157.htm)?


Once again, I didn't meet one Iranian student who didn't hate the mullah-regime. And the most resistence against the Putin-regime in Russia comes from students as well.
And yes, in France, there is a lot of interest in universities about the national questions of Corsicans, Basques, and others, and heated debates are being conducted in university aula's.

[takeo]

Judenrat guards were neither German nor Nazis per se; they were enablers though for a lot of death and misery. There is a term you should get familiar with "Aiding and abetting (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a033.htm)".

nonsense, it's not because you disagree with Bush' and Israeli policies, that you become an ally of Al-quaida. Absolutely rubbish theory. You can be at the same time opposed to Bush AND Al-Quaida.(as moct people)

[takeo]

"You have to know that Al-Azar is an Islamic university. Most university students, especially in the West, tend to be liberal or leftist-minded.
And I don't think islamisation is caused by university students. It is caused by a general feeling of impotence faced with the many injustices and poverty they have to undergo."
It is this what soft Jihad is focused on, not on those who are secure in their own skin.

of course, Jihad is focusing on weak victims, just like ultra-rightwing propaganda such as on this forum or in the US or Israel. Most people who vote for FN in France are belonging to the lowest classes and don't feel good in their skin. Most Bush-voters weren't the ultra-rich which benefitted from his policy, but ordinary people from the poorest and most backwards states in the US.
Jihad, just like ultra-rightwing propaganda, is thriving on hate. The more hate, the better their business works.

[bararallu]

Once again, I didn't meet one Iranian student who didn't hate the mullah-regime. And the most resistence against the Putin-regime in Russia comes from students as well.
And yes, in France, there is a lot of interest in universities about the national questions of Corsicans, Basques, and others, and heated debates are being conducted in university aula's.

That wasn't what you stated. I'm not sure what "heated debate" means. Nor do I really care. I re-quote conveniently in order for you to clarify your position, in your phraseology:


Originally Posted by takeo
They've learned about international law, that all peoples are equal, that every people has the right to have an own state

Again, I presume that you will support self determination in all these places, unless you are saying that you and/or French University Students are selective about Israel? Why would that be?

Please make us understand "every people has the right to to have an own state".

When will France allow self determination in Alcase Loraine? In Corsica? For the Basque (robbed in the French Revolution to this day)?

When indeed will we see a self determined Chechnya? When will we see you support the self determination of Kurds in Iran, Druze in Syria? We're waiting with baited breath to see you post in pro Baluchi forums and support their call for independence from the Mullah Iranians. Show us....tell us. Do you or dont you support minority self determination? We are all waiting to understand your position.

Furthermore, please enlighten us, since presumably you are or once have been this student hot in debates w/ access to limitless knowledge:

Why hasn't France signed the fundamental document of protection of minorities that every country in Europe has signed (save for Monaco and another inbred little neighboring city (both of whom, oddly of course, speak a lot of French)).

Inquiring minds need to know.

[Madeline]

of course, Jihad is focusing on weak victims, just like ultra-rightwing propaganda such as on this forum or in the US or Israel. Most people who vote for FN in France are belonging to the lowest classes and don't feel good in their skin. Most Bush-voters weren't the ultra-rich which benefitted from his policy, but ordinary people from the poorest and most backwards states in the US.
Jihad, just like ultra-rightwing propaganda, is thriving on hate. The more hate, the better their business works.

It sounds like you are about to blow your top. Do you have your fellow left wingers sitting beside you, cheering you on, or do you come up with this all by yourself? You sit in judgment, but don't want to be judged. Wow, that speaks volumes.

[bararallu]

nonsense, it's not because you disagree with Bush' and Israeli policies, that you become an ally of Al-quaida. Absolutely rubbish theory. You can be at the same time opposed to Bush AND Al-Quaida.(as moct people)

Except supposed Liberals (Galloway, Red Ken etc) and Fascists (BNP/NF) alike white wash Islamic Jihad on a daily basis and demonify Israel and Jews generally. The Aryan Nations support Jihad, as do most of the non muslims, supposedly Leftist, denizens on electronic intifadah support Jihad. Stop passing the buck... you aid and abet Jihad when it suits you (vs Israel), and you attack it when it suites you too (vs Russia and France). That would make you a... care to guess. :)

[bararallu]

It sounds like you are about to blow your top. Do you have your fellow left wingers sitting beside you, cheering you on, or do you come up with this all by yourself? You sit in judgment, but don't want to be judged. Wow, that speaks volumes.

LOL. I think our friend knows just about squat about American demographics and voting patterns. If he knew he'd probably keep that windmill spinning a little less. Oh, I'm so eager to know how this scion of Lenin and Le Pen will reconcile his generic support for minority self determination (not to mention lack of minority support via EU standard protocols)in Israel with France's and Russian and Iranian minority wishes to do likewise. It's not as if we couldnt link Corsican dying to have the French give them their country, or the Basque, who've lived in Europe since the Cavemen, or the Chechens to have been driven into the arms of the Saudis by Russian carpet bombing. I'm really really all ears. :)

[ShimonG]

Un-biased BBC reporting on the Gaza battle.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/14/video-israeli-tv-goofs-on-bbcs-gaza-bias/

[Reffo]

By the way my Israeli (mostly Jewish) friends of Gush Shalom lived all their lifes in Israel.Uhhhhhh Aaaaaaah, what fine friends you have :lol:. It seems that Ury Avneri a founding leader of "that fine group" is as talented as you when it comes to putting his foot in his mouth. Here is what he said when he wanted to convince his doting audience that Israel cannot finish Hamas off:


From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not “hide behind the population”, the population views them as their only defenders.

And in the next breath, he admonishes Israel for "the collective punishment" of innocent Palestinians.

Oh and rest assured, Gush Shalom is a very small and marginal ultra leftist group, I know, I lived in Israel. You know the type? All western democracies are "blessed" by such..

[Reffo]

Of course they've been given the chance. The pro-Israeli point of view is propagated in the Murdoch-owned media for example. Leftist and communist media in the western world and Israel don't have the means nor the distribution to compete.First of all, contrary to your implication, the Murdoch press is not dedicated to present Israel's side of the story although what it does present and when it presents it tends to be moderately sympathetic to Israel. But that's not the point because the Murdoch press in general does not tend to be patronised by your average left wing student. They tend to listen to or read other media such as FM Radio etc. And in those areas, they tend to be bombarded by messages such as the one that I mentioned in my earlier post Click Here so that's where Israel and we, Israel's supporters, need to do a better job in exposing your type of simplistic lies.

[Reffo]

I am not surprised at this. It is spin, and that is what they are good at. Cut anyone off t who defends the truth, don't let them speak, because the truth hurts those who have to lose that which is build on lies.They won't get away with it forever ...:cool:

[KiwiWriter]

A lot of lies and nonsense.

A lot of clearly documented historical fact actually.

[KiwiWriter]

Except supposed Liberals (Galloway, Red Ken etc) and Fascists (BNP/NF) alike white wash Islamic Jihad on a daily basis and demonify Israel and Jews generally. The Aryan Nations support Jihad, as do most of the non muslims, supposedly Leftist, denizens on electronic intifadah support Jihad. Stop passing the buck... you aid and abet Jihad when it suits you (vs Israel), and you attack it when it suites you too (vs Russia and France). That would make you a... care to guess. :)

Galloway even went as far as kicking an American Jewish Journalist out of his office when said Journalist referred to Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

So much for open mindedness.

[KiwiWriter]

Oh and rest assured, Gush Shalom is a very small and marginal ultra leftist group, I know, I lived in Israel. You know the type? All western democracies are "blessed" by such..

Sad, but so very true.

[KiwiWriter]

On another note, look what I found. Must be true because the writer has those fancy letters after his name :D

This is a WorldNetDaily printer-friendly version of the article which follows.
To view this item online, visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=56494


Tuesday, January 20, 2009



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WorldNetDaily Exclusive
Veteran psychiatrist calls liberals mentally ill
Publishes extensive study on 'Psychological Causes of Political Madness'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: November 12, 2008
6:33 pm Eastern




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WorldNetDaily




WASHINGTON – Just when liberals thought it was safe to start identifying themselves as such, an acclaimed, veteran psychiatrist is making the case that the ideology motivating them is actually a mental disorder.

"Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded," says Dr. Lyle Rossiter, author of the new book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness." "Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

While political activists on the other side of the spectrum have made similar observations, Rossiter boasts professional credentials and a life virtually free of activism and links to "the vast right-wing conspiracy."

For more than 35 years he has diagnosed and treated more than 1,500 patients as a board-certified clinical psychiatrist and examined more than 2,700 civil and criminal cases as a board-certified forensic psychiatrist. He received his medical and psychiatric training at the University of Chicago.

Rossiter says the kind of liberalism being displayed by both Barack Obama and his Democratic primary opponent Hillary Clinton can only be understood as a psychological disorder.

"A social scientist who understands human nature will not dismiss the vital roles of free choice, voluntary cooperation and moral integrity – as liberals do," he says. "A political leader who understands human nature will not ignore individual differences in talent, drive, personal appeal and work ethic, and then try to impose economic and social equality on the population – as liberals do. And a legislator who understands human nature will not create an environment of rules which over-regulates and over-taxes the nation's citizens, corrupts their character and reduces them to wards of the state – as liberals do."

Dr. Rossiter says the liberal agenda preys on weakness and feelings of inferiority in the population by:

creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization;
satisfying infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation;

augmenting primitive feelings of envy;

rejecting the sovereignty of the individual, subordinating him to the will of the government.
"The roots of liberalism – and its associated madness – can be clearly identified by understanding how children develop from infancy to adulthood and how distorted development produces the irrational beliefs of the liberal mind," he says. "When the modern liberal mind whines about imaginary victims, rages against imaginary villains and seeks above all else to run the lives of persons competent to run their own lives, the neurosis of the liberal mind becomes painfully obvious."

[takeo]

Except supposed Liberals (Galloway, Red Ken etc) and Fascists (BNP/NF) alike white wash Islamic Jihad on a daily basis and demonify Israel and Jews generally. The Aryan Nations support Jihad, as do most of the non muslims, supposedly Leftist, denizens on electronic intifadah support Jihad. Stop passing the buck... you aid and abet Jihad when it suits you (vs Israel), and you attack it when it suites you too (vs Russia and France). That would make you a... care to guess. :)

I never support Jihad (war against non-muslim infidels). Not against Russia, not against France, not against Israel. But Palestinian struggle for independance and against occupation isn't Jihad in the sense of war against all non-fidels, it's legitimate, and many christian Palestinians engage in it as well. The war of Hamas against Fatah was maybe Jihad, but not against Israel.

However, YOU supported Jihad, in the 80's in Afghanistan, against Russia. That makes you a...

[takeo]

Uhhhhhh Aaaaaaah, what fine friends you have :lol:. It seems that Ury Avneri a founding leader of "that fine group" is as talented as you when it comes to putting his foot in his mouth. Here is what he said when he wanted to convince his doting audience that Israel cannot finish Hamas off:



And in the next breath, he admonishes Israel for "the collective punishment" of innocent Palestinians.

Oh and rest assured, Gush Shalom is a very small and marginal ultra leftist group, I know, I lived in Israel. You know the type? All western democracies are "blessed" by such..

I absolutely agree to everything he says. And they are not that marginal Gideon Levy for example writes for Haaretz, the most important Israeli newspaper. However you ultra extreme rightists are marginal. On ly the extremists on the right side (all western democracies are "blessed" by such) propose "transfer" or etnic cleansing of all palestinians and Israeli Arabs. However I doubt if you can still call Israel a western democracy, now that Israeli Arab parties have been banned.

[takeo]

First of all, contrary to your implication, the Murdoch press is not dedicated to present Israel's side of the story although what it does present and when it presents it tends to be moderately sympathetic to Israel. But that's not the point because the Murdoch press in general does not tend to be patronised by your average left wing student. They tend to listen to or read other media such as FM Radio etc. And in those areas, they tend to be bombarded by messages such as the one that I mentioned in my earlier post Click Here so that's where Israel and we, Israel's supporters, need to do a better job in exposing your type of simplistic lies.

The Murdoch press monopolises a great deal of press in Australia and the US, just like Berlusconi in Italy. Not listening or reading to this kind of media is a deliberate choice by your average leftist student, exactly because it's biased, which became so very clear during the war against Iraq.

[takeo]

A lot of clearly documented historical fact actually.

any examples?

[takeo]

They won't get away with it forever ...:cool:

No, you will not get away with it eternally. Israel will have to make a choice between occupation or total isolation. Especially in the US I can see that the pro-Israel bias is changing. More and more people are asking questions concerning this "exclusive relationship". I hope Obama has the guts to change it, and pressure Israel into compromise. It was very encouraging to see how you people hate him.
And in Europe even the politicians and media who are usually pro-Israel criticised Israel for attacking UN-buildings, journalists, refugees and children. Everyone, both on the left and right, is calling for putting more pressure on Israel, and using the economic relationships with Israel (EU is Israel's largest trading partner) as a tool. Another very strategic and important country for Israel where the mood definately changed as a result of this latest war is Turkey. Turkey wants to cut all ties to Israel.

[Manaia]

The Murdoch press monopolises a great deal of press in Australia and the US, just like Berlusconi in Italy. Not listening or reading to this kind of media is a deliberate choice by your average leftist student, exactly because it's biased, which became so very clear during the war against Iraq.

'The Murdoch Press' lol. All media is biased. It is best to take in all media. Unless you're biased of course.

[Manaia]

No, you will not get away with it eternally. Israel will have to make a choice between occupation or total isolation. Especially in the US I can see that the pro-Israel bias is changing. More and more people are asking questions concerning this "exclusive relationship". I hope Obama has the guts to change it, and pressure Israel into compromise. It was very encouraging to see how you people hate him.
And in Europe even the politicians and media who are usually pro-Israel criticised Israel for attacking UN-buildings, journalists, refugees and children. Everyone, both on the left and right, is calling for putting more pressure on Israel, and using the economic relationships with Israel (EU is Israel's largest trading partner) as a tool. Another very strategic and important country for Israel where the mood definately changed as a result of this latest war is Turkey. Turkey wants to cut all ties to Israel.
I can see the opposite happening. Obama is eloquent and believes in dialogue. If he turns out to be as good as he would like us to believe he is, it won't take long for the world to see the Pro-Hamas, Hezbollah, Mullah, Terrorist mob are illogical and unworthy of support through their inability to express logical thought. Whereas the Israelis arguments and positioning are completely reasonable. I also see changes in the Arab world. Open disagreements in the media against Hamas and their ilk will continue to increase.
Western supporters of these terrorist institutions will be exposed as the naive hypocrites &/or downright evil people they truly are.
The future for Israel will be good because it has to be. Because they stand for The Good.

[bararallu]

I never support Jihad (war against non-muslim infidels). Not against Russia, not against France, not against Israel.

Of course you do when it suites you. Everyone here will confirm that.


But Palestinian struggle for independance and against occupation isn't Jihad in the sense of war against all non-fidels, it's legitimate, and many christian Palestinians engage in it as well.

Perfect example of your forked tongue; even when Arafat and Hamas, and AQ call Jihad, "the little Jihad", you deny that it's a Jihad. Just like you deny the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from the ME and North Africa.


The war of Hamas against Fatah was maybe Jihad, but not against Israel.

Right, another token of type... per modus operandi.


However, YOU supported Jihad, in the 80's in Afghanistan, against Russia. That makes you a...

Where did I say that? Link please.

I've addressed your post, like an adult, now please address the questions put to you in multiple posts. Clarify your support for minority self determination.


Originally Posted by takeo
... all peoples are equal, that every people has the right to have an own state...


Do you or do you not believe that the following minorities should have the right to self determine:

Alsatians
Corsicans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica)
Brettons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_nationalism)
Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Basque_Country)
Chechnya in Russia, Bolochis and Kurds in Iran, Druze in Syria, Copts in Egypt.

Furthermore, please explain to us why France has not signed on to an important human rights convention- the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/157.htm)?

[Madeline]

Of course you do when it suites you. Everyone here will confirm that.



Perfect example of your forked tongue; even when Arafat and Hamas, and AQ call Jihad, "the little Jihad", you deny that it's a Jihad. Just like you deny the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from the ME and North Africa.



Right, another token of type... per modus operandi.



Where did I say that? Link please.

I've addressed your post, like an adult, now please address the questions put to you in multiple posts. Clarify your support for minority self determination.



Do you or do you not believe that the following minorities should have the right to self determine:

Alsatians
Corsicans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica)
Brettons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_nationalism)
Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Basque_Country)
Chechnya in Russia, Bolochis and Kurds in Iran, Druze in Syria, Copts in Egypt.

Furthermore, please explain to us why France has not signed on to an important human rights convention- the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/157.htm)?

He is waiting for his little buddies to give him some feedback. I can just picture it, the guys sitting in a dorm room, each taking a turn being takeo, coming up with the 'latest blow' against Jews.
You know, he/they speak so much about the quest for justice coming from the minds of those who seek higher education. What he/they forget are the radical thoughts brought forth by the same mindset.
Just think, many of the educators have never left campus. Some of those who educate were hired right from the classroom, never having set foot in real life.

[Sharona]

I already said that Egyptian Jews have been persecuted, and of course I don't agree to that, I also don't think it contributed to Egyptian development, as these Jews represented a lot of intelligentia and skilled people. How exactly did they leave, they were forced to leave at gunpoint? (like many Palestinians in Israel)
But how's that an argument? Is this a justification for Israel to do just the same?


Well, Takeo - at least you've answered. I've posted this information hither and thither on this and other forums for a reason (sorry to other members if I've appeared to over-emphasise it!) and not one single anti-Israel person has replied to the very obvious points and parallels.

Takeo, you have often mentioned 'ethnic cleansing' in respect of Palestine. I don't agree that this is or ever has been Israel's objective; clearly, since the beginning of the diaspora, Jews have lived shoulder-by-shoulder with every nationality. At least until some firebrand or other has come along and booted them out.

The Jews were not exiled from Egypt alone, Takeo - as I'm sure you know -but from all the Arab lands. Some 800,000 (plus) Jews and Christians have lost their homes and lands over the last five decades. They have caused no problems either during their settlement in Arab lands nor when they were exiled. Indeed, as you have mentioned, the Jews have made positive contributions. This would tend to indicated that it is actually the Arab people who opt not to live alongside Jews or Christians. Not the other way round. I suggest this is exactly the same in Israel.

With regard to my husband's family - they were give 24hrs to leave or they would be imprisoned. And no, those who did the rounding up didn't come with polite requests and plastic inflatable batons. As their jobs, homes, assets and so on had already been taken, their options in terms of hanging on weren't great. They also had small children to consider and for their sake, went quietly.

I would be interested to hear what you feel my husband's family - along with the hundreds of thousands of those expelled between the 50's and 80's - should have done? Do you feel they should have stayed on and fought it out? Or did they do the right thing and leave without attempting to create a war, hoping to settle in other lands and get on with their lives? Given that Egypt was their home and one that lives on today in their hearts and minds as 'home', should they now perhaps demand the right to return - and to live in peace - and in expectation of their stolen assets returned? If this is denied, should they and their descendants, some of whom were not born in Egypt, form terrorist cells and wage war on Egypt and the lands they are currently living in?

These are genuine questions, Takeo, addressed to you. Not intellectual debating points. What do YOU think they should have done - or should do now?

[bararallu]

He is waiting for his little buddies to give him some feedback. I can just picture it, the guys sitting in a dorm room
, each taking a turn being takeo, coming up with the 'latest blow' against Jews.

LOL



You know, he/they speak so much about the quest for justice coming from the minds of those who seek higher education. What he/they forget are the radical thoughts brought forth by the same mindset.
Just think, many of the educators have never left campus. Some of those who educate were hired right from the classroom, never having set foot in real life.

Absolutely true, that is why he honors us with his many travails and just so stories. Icing on the great cake!

Thing is, he looses the plot on numerous occasions. And in his most recent flailing about, Reffo and I caught him on at least two fundamental contradictions which he has not, to any reasonable satisfaction, clarified or mitigated- making him look, at best, like a Jew hating hypocrite and at worst, an outright imbecile. Others have poked holes in his craptastic ideas for years now. The forum is littered with little pieces of Takeo, ripped by rational discourse. Some here believe he's just a devils advocate. I'm of the opinion that he is a scion of soviet spies... where the apple does not fall far from the tree.

[Toadstool46]

Takeo: I don't think it is going to matter in the end who is pro Israel or against them. You will see in the future that one truth will never ever change. This is the covenant of God that Israel is in the promised land. No human force alive will take it from them. How do you think this tiny bit of land has been protected for as long as it has.. How do you think that this land has ended up in the possession of the choosen people after so many centuries? Why do you think there is such a drive to wipe it from the map. You may not believe the Bible but that doesn't make it true. Its all laid out there for anyone to read. So far 100% accuracy why wouldn't the rest come to pass too.

[Madeline]

LOL



Absolutely true, that is why he honors us with his many travails and just so stories. Icing on the great cake!

Thing is, he looses the plot on numerous occasions. And in his most recent flailing about, Reffo and I caught him on at least two fundamental contradictions which he has not, to any reasonable satisfaction, clarified or mitigated- making him look, at best, like a Jew hating hypocrite and at worst, an outright imbecile. Others have poked holes in his craptastic ideas for years now. The forum is littered with little pieces of Takeo, ripped by rational discourse. Some here believe he's just a devils advocate. I'm of the opinion that he is a scion of soviet spies... where the apple does not fall far from the tree.

Yes, and one would think that people with his 'intelligence', you know, them 'highly educated ones', would learn from their own mistakes at least, or at last....:scratch:...well, I guess me is not edicatid nough.

[Madeline]

Takeo: I don't think it is going to matter in the end who is pro Israel or against them. You will see in the future that one truth will never ever change. This is the covenant of God that Israel is in the promised land. No human force alive will take it from them. How do you think this tiny bit of land has been protected for as long as it has.. How do you think that this land has ended up in the possession of the chosen people after so many centuries? Why do you think there is such a drive to wipe it from the map. You may not believe the Bible but that doesn't make it true. Its all laid out there for anyone to read. So far 100% accuracy why wouldn't the rest come to pass too.

Yeehaw:clap: yes, indeed. The final, indisputable fact indeed. Thank you.

[CanDo]

Takeo, you have often mentioned 'ethnic cleansing' in respect of Palestine.

The morally corrupt takeos of this world keep spreading the same, old antiSemitic lies, over and over again. The takeos believe that, if they keep saying the same, old tired lies, then sooner or later they will become true.


I don't agree that this is or ever has been Israel's objective; clearly, since the beginning of the diaspora, Jews have lived shoulder-by-shoulder with every nationality. At least until some firebrand or other has come along and booted them out.

Logic and reason are an enigma to takeo. He only knows that he hates Jews. He denies anything which is reasonable, or historically factual.


The Jews were not exiled from Egypt alone, Takeo - as I'm sure you know -but from all the Arab lands. Some 800,000 (plus) Jews and Christians have lost their homes and lands over the last five decades. They have caused no problems either during their settlement in Arab lands nor when they were exiled. Indeed, as you have mentioned, the Jews have made positive contributions. This would tend to indicated that it is actually the Arab people who opt not to live alongside Jews or Christians. Not the other way round. I suggest this is exactly the same in Israel.

The truth doesn't matter to takeo. Jews being expelled from Arab lands, or Jews being attacked by Palestinians, don't matter to takeo. The only "victims" who matter to takeo are the Arabs who left their homes in Palestinian solely because of the war that was started by Arabs, and waged against peace-loving Jewish families. Jews didn't start, or want, the 1948 war, or to be constantly attacked by Arabs. There would not have been one Arab-Palestinian refugee if the Arabs hadn't been so damn hostile, violent, backward and uncivilized, and started wars against Jews.

But...... that doesn't fit in with takeo's twisted, antiSemitic mind. He just parrots the same old dribble that ALL antiSemites parrot. He brings nothing new to the discussion, just his dislike for Jews.


With regard to my husband's family - they were given 24hrs to leave or they would be imprisoned. And no, those who did the rounding up didn't come with polite requests and plastic inflatable batons. As their jobs, homes, assets and so on had already been taken, their options in terms of hanging on weren't great. They also had small children to consider and for their sake, went quietly.

Unlike most of the Palestinian-Arabs, who left on their own, in hopes of returning after all of the Jews were dead.

Sorry to hear about your husband's ordeal, and that everything that he owned was stolen by Arabs. What a nightmare he went through!

Good luck with your discussion with takeo. I hope that you are not expecting more than sneaky, self-serving, obnoxious responses from him.

[bararallu]

Well, Takeo - at least you've answered. I've posted this information hither and thither on this and other forums for a reason (sorry to other members if I've appeared to over-emphasise it!) and not one single anti-Israel person has replied to the very obvious points and parallels.

Takeo, you have often mentioned 'ethnic cleansing' in respect of Palestine. I don't agree that this is or ever has been Israel's objective; clearly, since the beginning of the diaspora, Jews have lived shoulder-by-shoulder with every nationality. At least until some firebrand or other has come along and booted them out.

The Jews were not exiled from Egypt alone, Takeo - as I'm sure you know -but from all the Arab lands. Some 800,000 (plus) Jews and Christians have lost their homes and lands over the last five decades. They have caused no problems either during their settlement in Arab lands nor when they were exiled. Indeed, as you have mentioned, the Jews have made positive contributions. This would tend to indicated that it is actually the Arab people who opt not to live alongside Jews or Christians. Not the other way round. I suggest this is exactly the same in Israel.

With regard to my husband's family - they were give 24hrs to leave or they would be imprisoned. And no, those who did the rounding up didn't come with polite requests and plastic inflatable batons. As their jobs, homes, assets and so on had already been taken, their options in terms of hanging on weren't great. They also had small children to consider and for their sake, went quietly.

I would be interested to hear what you feel my husband's family - along with the hundreds of thousands of those expelled between the 50's and 80's - should have done? Do you feel they should have stayed on and fought it out? Or did they do the right thing and leave without attempting to create a war, hoping to settle in other lands and get on with their lives? Given that Egypt was their home and one that lives on today in their hearts and minds as 'home', should they now perhaps demand the right to return - and to live in peace - and in expectation of their stolen assets returned? If this is denied, should they and their descendants, some of whom were not born in Egypt, form terrorist cells and wage war on Egypt and the lands they are currently living in?

These are genuine questions, Takeo, addressed to you. Not intellectual debating points. What do YOU think they should have done - or should do now?

His little concessions (e.g., "I already said that Egyptian Jews have been persecuted") are there just to give him the perception of balance. He cannot however hide his one sided, pro Islamist and pro Arab agenda. His concessions are mostly unless it impacts that which is close to his heart; Communism, France, Russia and their allies. He's already whitewashed Jewish ethnic cleansing from Iraq, possibly in this very thread. He also supports every regime known to man that currently persecute and demonifies Jews. He singles Jews out specifically (and by consequence their supporters: mostly Americans).

[Reffo]

I absolutely agree to everything he says... You do? :lol: Then why do you seem to be embarassed by what he [Uri Avneri]said?

"From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not “hide behind the population”, the population views them as their only defenders."

Why did you omit the above bit from your quote of my post? Click Here

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: I hope Obama has the guts to change it, and pressure Israel into compromise.

Yes, Israel must stop occupying its own land and committing "genocide". Israel's responsible for everything from the backward Muslim mentality to burnt toast and buses that don't come on time. Even after Hitler put us through the Holocaust we kept our identity and humanity - there's just no hope, is there? Looks like the Messianic Obama's got a real job on. I suspect he'll be too busy with domestic issues, though, to look at the Middle East. He could start by taking a close look at the backward, thick, genocidal, land hungry Pals, though. Not content with being offered 85% of the original "Palestine", they want the whole lot.

[CanDo]

Yes, Israel must stop occupying its own land and committing "genocide". Israel's responsible for everything from the backward Muslim mentality to burnt toast and buses that don't come on time. Even after Hitler put us through the Holocaust we kept our identity and humanity - there's just no hope, is there? Looks like the Messianic Obama's got a real job on. I suspect he'll be too busy with domestic issues, though, to look at the Middle East. He could start by taking a close look at the backward, thick, genocidal, land hungry Pals, though. Not content with being offered 85% of the original "Palestine", they want the whole lot.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Reffo]

The Murdoch press monopolises a great deal of press in Australia and the US, just like Berlusconi in Italy. Not listening or reading to this kind of media is a deliberate choice by your average leftist student, exactly because it's biased, which became so very clear during the war against Iraq. You have said this before and I chose to let it go but now I have to say it. You are betraying your ignorance, you don't know your left hand from your right hand. Have you ever even visited Australia? For your information, although the Murdoch press is big in Australia it certainly is not a monopoly!

It is government policy to maintain media diversity in Australia and there certainly is a diversity of opinion even in the Murdoch press but there are other major media outlets as well, for instance: The likes of you would feel right at home if you'd read a newspaper such as the Melbourne Age (a Fairfax publication). Just a few days ago, one of your ilk published an article in which he blamed Israel and Jews for all the world's problems, the Bali bombings, the Madrid bombings, the London bombings and even September 11. He even conjured up the age old image of 'the penny pinching Jew' in the guise of the Israeli tourists in the far east. Goebbels would be proud of that published article ... :vomit:

[KiwiWriter]

I never support Jihad (war against non-muslim infidels). Not against Russia, not against France, not against Israel. But Palestinian struggle for independance and against occupation isn't Jihad in the sense of war against all non-fidels, it's legitimate, and many christian Palestinians engage in it as well.


Who says it's "occupation"? There are striking similarities between israel today and Czechoslovakia late 1930s. Besides every Arab group there have publically state they are in a Jihad against Israel.

[KiwiWriter]

any examples?

Plenty, if you bothered to look.

[KiwiWriter]

Takeo: I don't think it is going to matter in the end who is pro Israel or against them. You will see in the future that one truth will never ever change. This is the covenant of God that Israel is in the promised land. No human force alive will take it from them. How do you think this tiny bit of land has been protected for as long as it has.. How do you think that this land has ended up in the possession of the choosen people after so many centuries? Why do you think there is such a drive to wipe it from the map. You may not believe the Bible but that doesn't make it true. Its all laid out there for anyone to read. So far 100% accuracy why wouldn't the rest come to pass too.

And I think that's what makes the average lefty so foaming at the mouth mad whenever you discuss the mid east. The ones I encounter are so calm and resonable while you discuss Iraq and Afganistan and the US. Mention israel though....

[Reffo]

No, you will not get away with it eternally. Israel will have to make a choice between occupation or total isolation.I'll say it again: Hamas's definition of "Occupation" is: The land from the river (Jordan) to the sea (the Mediterranean) in other words they consider Israel itself to be "occupied" land. So, if that's what you mean, there is nothing to talk about there. Israel WILL get away with it or the Middle East will cease to exist (if you get my drift). I hope for everyone's sake that it will be the former.

If you mean Fatah's definition, theirs is a bit ambiguous. If they really do mean to have a two state solution, then my guess is that it will eventually come about but not before they too will compromise and agree to meet Israel's terms for it. Of course, if they won't be willing to do so, then that will betray their true intentions which is the same as Hamas's (I hope that's not the case) and then, my above comment applies.


It was very encouraging to see how you people hate him.Who are the "you people" to whom you are referring? This forum has a variety of opinions although most of us are supporters of Israel. And where did I say that I hate Obama? Please show me the link or apologise for putting your foot in your mouth again.

This is how I feel about Obama: I don't know what he will be like but he strikes me as a capable articulate person. In spite of his positive talk prior to the elections, I won't pretend that I don't have concerns about how he will deal with Israel and other issues but I hope that he will behave with integrity and wisdom, we will see. If he will, then I wish him all the best. Either way, the American electors are the ones whose judgement will ultimately count.

[Reffo]

And in his most recent flailing about, Reffo and I caught him on at least two fundamental contradictions which he has not, to any reasonable satisfaction, clarified or mitigated- making him look, at best, like a Jew hating hypocrite and at worst, an outright imbecile.Very true :D but I would say that he is at best an outright imbecile and at worst a Jew hating hypocrite :eek:

And as far as what "some believe him to be", I must admit that at times I was/am one of those (I don't really know). But if so :scratch: then my question is this, why doesn't he change his nom de plum from time to time?

[takeo]

'The Murdoch Press' lol. All media is biased. It is best to take in all media. Unless you're biased of course.

That's what I'm doing, that's what many students do. That's not what most of you folks are doing.

[Manaia]

That's what I'm doing, that's what many students do. That's not what most of you folks are doing.

You have no way of knowing that. A lot of students do only what they know will please their lecturers or whoever marks their submissions e.g. students of leftwing lecturers will focus on leftwing media, rightwing the opposite

[takeo]

I can see the opposite happening. Obama is eloquent and believes in dialogue. If he turns out to be as good as he would like us to believe he is, it won't take long for the world to see the Pro-Hamas, Hezbollah, Mullah, Terrorist mob are illogical and unworthy of support through their inability to express logical thought. Whereas the Israelis arguments and positioning are completely reasonable. I also see changes in the Arab world. Open disagreements in the media against Hamas and their ilk will continue to increase.
Western supporters of these terrorist institutions will be exposed as the naive hypocrites &/or downright evil people they truly are.
The future for Israel will be good because it has to be. Because they stand for The Good.

I agree with one thing you said. Obama is rational indeed, unlike the neo-cons in the Bush-administration, and if he pushes Israel to peace, what would be a logical and rational policy, and it would disprove anything the muslim extremists say about Israel and the US being eternal ennemies of the muslim population. If he could brind about final and lasting peace, a Palestinian state and a solution for the refugees, than it would be a final blow for Hamas. Palestinians would see that the strategy of Abbas brought them what they want, unlike the strategy of Hamas.

BUT Obama's rationalism will also expose the irrationality of some inside the zionist movement, who refuse to give up the occupied territories, because of religious and ultra-nationalist reasons.
If Netanyahu gives in to their demands (and they are an influential group inside Likud) than I want to bet with all my money and belongings that there will be high tensions between him and Obama.

Obama, which himself has close ties to the left, is the most left-wing president since Carter, and has a muslim Kenyan father, will bring change, not oly inside the US but in the foreign policy as well.

People in the West who always supported an end to occupation, a just solution for both parties, and peace, will support Obama if he really brings change. And people on this forum will hate his guts.


The future for Israel will be good because it has to be. Because they stand for The Good


That's not very rational, to say the least, it reminds me of the hysterical irrational nonsense we heard all the time during the Bush-years, about "good" ones, "evil" ones, "ugly ones", those who are not with us are against us, etc.

Israel isn't Good. Palestinians aren't Good. Both have made serious mistakes, and both have to find a solution for their problems. THAT's the rational thing to do.

[takeo]

You have no way of knowing that. A lot of students do only what they know will please their lecturers or whoever marks their submissions e.g. students of leftwing lecturers will focus on leftwing media, rightwing the opposite

Not really, at least in my experience.

[Toadstool46]

You know, I have had many discussions on many topics. Many times the argument is that the people who have similar beliefs to me are older and don't know the new science, theories, political methods or what ever. In other words they are old and not in touch.

My response is that the young bucks. All full of Piss and Vinager. Right out of our fantastic educational systems from around the world are like a kid learning to drive. They know it all. Just point the vehicle the way you want it to go and press the gas. Use the brake to stop.... steer around the obsticals....simple.

The older drivers have driven in snow, sleet, ice, heavy rain, heavy traffic, around crazy drivers, crazy street systems. In short they are seasoned. They my friends have been through the fire. Thown out the lies, learned the truth. This is why the Asians respect the elderly while the west put them in homes and visit them once a month.

Anyway, back to my point. Many men have tried to prove the Bible wrong and have ended up to be the strongest belivers. Many a person has set out on the same trail that these young "educated" prodogies are now on only to find that things in theory aren't always the truth.

Educated does not equal knowledge.

[takeo]

Sharona

Thank you for your response.


Takeo, you have often mentioned 'ethnic cleansing' in respect of Palestine. I don't agree that this is or ever has been Israel's objective; clearly, since the beginning of the diaspora, Jews have lived shoulder-by-shoulder with every nationality. At least until some firebrand or other has come along and booted them out.

That's right, but when jews were in the majority or the strongest position themselves, they also committed crimes against other peoples, such as in 1948.



The Jews were not exiled from Egypt alone, Takeo - as I'm sure you know -but from all the Arab lands. Some 800,000 (plus) Jews and Christians have lost their homes and lands over the last five decades. They have caused no problems either during their settlement in Arab lands nor when they were exiled. Indeed, as you have mentioned, the Jews have made positive contributions. This would tend to indicated that it is actually the Arab people who opt not to live alongside Jews or Christians. Not the other way round. I suggest this is exactly the same in Israel.

I agree that Jews in Arab countries didn't cause any problems and contributed to devellopment. But at the same time the most problems started with the creation of the state of Israel. On one hand, it made the Arabs more hostile to Jews, on the other hand, zionist organisations wanted to actively recruit people to migrate to Israel, to establish a Jewish majority there. I think this is an established historical fact. I already cited wikipedia about Jews in Iraq. Iraq forbade Jews to migrate, zionist organisations did everything to smuggle them out of the country, and encourage them to go.





With regard to my husband's family - they were give 24hrs to leave or they would be imprisoned. And no, those who did the rounding up didn't come with polite requests and plastic inflatable batons. As their jobs, homes, assets and so on had already been taken, their options in terms of hanging on weren't great. They also had small children to consider and for their sake, went quietly.

OK, I understand, the situation of Jews in Egypt became difficult, because the government was making their life difficult. On the other hand some stayed untill 1967, when most of them went to Israel.
But it wasn't the case in all Arab or muslim countries. For example only the poor Iranian Jews moved, since they hoped for better opportunities in Israel, the rich stayed. In Morocco most Jews went to Israel as a result of active zionist organisations, not as a result of heavy persecution (altough there have been incidents in Oujda and Djerada, not in other cities). Morocco still belonged to France and Spain. Many Jews stayed on after independance, and only moved slowly but steadily in the 50's and 60's when they heard about higher living standards in Israel, heavily encouraged by zionist organisations. In other countries like Iraq there had been anti-semitic measures taken by the government and there have been riots, but not to the extent that emigration was the only option. According to some sources, zionist organisations even fabricated explosions themselves, to cause panic and persuade people to move to Israel (wikipedia, "Jews in Iraq"). The situation in Tunisia, Libia and Algeria (still a part of France) was still different, but clearly not as bad as in Egypt, which was the worst in the Arab world, because Egypt was directly involved in several wars with Israel. I many Arab and muslim countries there are still active Jewish communities, such as in Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Iran, etc.









I would be interested to hear what you feel my husband's family - along with the hundreds of thousands of those expelled between the 50's and 80's - should have done? Do you feel they should have stayed on and fought it out? Or did they do the right thing and leave without attempting to create a war, hoping to settle in other lands and get on with their lives?

That's a decision for everyone to make for himself. It concerns his or her own life. Egyptian Jews mainly choose to flee, and I respect that decision, considering their situation. But if they choose to fight for it, I would understand that as well, they had the right to do so.




Given that Egypt was their home and one that lives on today in their hearts and minds as 'home', should they now perhaps demand the right to return - and to live in peace - and in expectation of their stolen assets returned? If this is denied, should they and their descendants, some of whom were not born in Egypt, form terrorist cells and wage war on Egypt and the lands they are currently living in?

Well, if they did so, I wouldn't condamn it. They have the right to struggle for what belongs to them. But since Egyptian Jews were a relatively small community, I think other ways such as international pressure and sanctions, would be more effective. But Israel never cared for their rights, Israel was very happy that they moved to Israel, helping to create a jewish majority there.




These are genuine questions, Takeo, addressed to you. Not intellectual debating points. What do YOU think they should have done - or should do now?

I was not in their situation, so it's hard to tell, and a very personal decision.
Now, I would still look for the properties of my ancestors, as many European Jews who lost everything during WWII did as well.

[takeo]

You do? :lol: Then why do you seem to be embarassed by what he [Uri Avneri]said?

"From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not “hide behind the population”, the population views them as their only defenders."

Why did you omit the above bit from your quote of my post? Click Here


I agree. But at the same time there are many cases where one brother belongs to Hamas, and other one to Fatah. Certainly in a war like that, when Israel enters Palestinian territory, everyone helps Hamas, even the sympathisers of Fatah. That's why a victory against Hamas is impossible without whiping out the entire population. The same happened in the Soviet-Union during the German invasion, or during the Vietnam-war.

[CanDo]

... If he could brind about final and lasting peace, a Palestinian state and a solution for the refugees, ...

There has to be a multi-pronged approach for there to be peace.


First of all, logical, reasonable people (which excludes mindless racists like you) have to hold the Palestinians accountable for 60+ years of terrorism, crimes against humanity, racism, and religious intolerance.

Secondly, the true owners of the land should be determined by fair-minded people, using historical facts.

Thirdly, it should be recognized that the Palestinians are not capable of managing a civilized, peaceful society, and therefore should never be intrusted with their own state.

Fourth, it should be recognized that the Jews are capable of building a civilized, peaceful society, despite having been attacked constantly for over 60 years by Arabs.

Fifth, cause should be shown why Gaza should not revert back to Egypt, of which it was a prior part.

Sixth, cause should be shown why parts of the West Bank should not revert back to Jordan, of which it was a prior part.

Seventh, reasonable, impartial people should determine just compensation to Jews for the large amounts of land that was stolen from them throughout the Arab/Muslim World.

Eighth, considerable compensation, both factual and punitive, including land, should be awarded to the Jews of Israel, from all of the surrounding Arab nations, including the Palestinians, as appropriately due as payment for the wars and terrorism that have been waged against the Jews of Israel over the past 6 decades.



Justly, the Palestinians should have to compensate the Jews of Israel with ALL of the land of Gaza and the West Bank, for 60+ years of crimes against humanity, especially against the Jews of Israel. The Palestinians would have to be absorbed by Egypt and Jordan, or anyone else who would have them, except Israel.

Anyone else have any other "just" items to add to the list?

[takeo]

His little concessions (e.g., "I already said that Egyptian Jews have been persecuted") are there just to give him the perception of balance. He cannot however hide his one sided, pro Islamist and pro Arab agenda. His concessions are mostly unless it impacts that which is close to his heart; Communism, France, Russia and their allies. He's already whitewashed Jewish ethnic cleansing from Iraq, possibly in this very thread. He also supports every regime known to man that currently persecute and demonifies Jews. He singles Jews out specifically (and by consequence their supporters: mostly Americans).

You are not balanced at all. In your opinion, one is either for Israel, or against it. But that's not the truth. The truth is that there are many shades of color between good and bad. I already criticised Russia, France, etc. as well, on many occasions! You never EVER criticised any decision taken by Israel or the US. So yes, I'm balanced, you're not.
And I'm not whitewashing anything, there hasn't been any etnic cleansing of Jews in Iraq, that's a lie. (unless you give me sources to prove it). There has been persecution of Jews in Iraq, which is not the same as forcefully removing the majority of one etnic group... Maybe in Egypt or Yemen, the situation was different, but you can't say there has been any etnic cleansing of Iraqi Jews, let alone of Jews in the entire muslim and Arab world.

Nowadays, however, christians are being cleansed from Iraq, a sad precedent in the Arab world, but only since the US invaded Iraq.

[Steven]

You are not balanced at all. In your opinion, one is either for Israel, or against it. But that's not the truth. The truth is that there are many shades of color between good and bad. I already criticised Russia, France, etc. as well, on many occasions! You never EVER criticised any decision taken by Israel or the US. So yes, I'm balanced, you're not.
And I'm not whitewashing anything, there hasn't been any etnic cleansing of Jews in Iraq, that's a lie. (unless you give me sources to prove it). There has been persecution of Jews in Iraq, which is not the same as forcefully removing the majority of one etnic group... Maybe in Egypt or Yemen, the situation was different, but you can't say there has been any etnic cleansing of Iraqi Jews, let alone of Jews in the entire muslim and Arab world.

Jews have been fleeing the Middle East (Islamic countries) for centuries, it is sickening that you come here at all and insult the Jews here with your obvious hatred for them.



Nowadays, however, christians are being cleansed from Iraq, a sad precedent in the Arab world, but only since the US invaded Iraq.



So once again it is someone else's fault and not the Muslims. Creepy, very creepy.

[takeo]

CanDo




First of all, logical, reasonable people (which excludes mindless racists like you) have to hold the Palestinians accountable for 60+ years of terrorism, crimes against humanity, racism, and religious intolerance.

That's not rational at all, both sides made mistakes and committed crimes. And you can't separate the terrorism and intolerance of the Palestinians from the etnic cleansing, occupation, colonisation and other Israeli crimes against humanity. Both are two sides of the same coin. (and in the other way, it works as well)



Secondly, the true owners of the land should be determined by fair-minded people, using historical facts.

In the early 40's, Palestinians owned the bulk of the land, and constituted a clear majority.



Thirdly, it should be recognized that the Palestinians are not capable of managing a civilized, peaceful society, and therefore should never be intrusted with their own state.

That's not rational at all. If given the opportunity, Palestinians, as any human beings, are capable of managing a civilised, peaceful society. Of course as long as occupation, colonisation, and blockades continue, there can't be any peaceful, civilised society.



Fourth, it should be recognized that the Jews are capable of building a civilized, peaceful society, despite having been attacked constantly for over 60 years by Arabs.

Yes, but only for themselves. So were the nazi-Germans. Israeli jews were not able however to settle any disputes with their non-Jewish neighbours.



Fifth, cause should be shown why Gaza should not revert back to Egypt, of which it was a prior part.

Because Palestinians don't want that, AND Egypt don't want it. If they want, no problem.



Sixth, cause should be shown why parts of the West Bank should not revert back to Jordan, of which it was a prior part.

Same answer.



Seventh, reasonable, impartial people should determine just compensation to Jews for the large amounts of land that was stolen from them throughout the Arab/Muslim World.

When all Palestinians get compensated, and the conflict with the Arab world is settled, this should be possible.







Eighth, considerable compensation, both factual and punitive, including land, should be awarded to the Jews of Israel, from all of the surrounding Arab nations, including the Palestinians, as appropriately due as payment for the wars and terrorism that have been waged against the Jews of Israel over the past 6 decades.

And what about the compensation for 6 decades of Israeli etnic cleansing, killing civilians, occupation, colonisation, etc.? If that's your principle, land for endured suffering (there's no international or moral law to support that, but just let's imagine) than palestinians should get the entire Israel.




Anyone else have any other "just" items to add to the list?

That only sounds just to a sick disturbed mind. the nazi's too tought their solutions were just...

[takeo]

So once again it is someone else's fault and not the Muslims. Creepy, very creepy.

Iraq had a christian prime minister untill 2003, and no christians were persecuted. Since the American invasion most christians fled Iraq, to Syria. This are the facts.

[takeo]

Reffo


I'll say it again: Hamas's definition of "Occupation" is: The land from the river (Jordan) to the sea (the Mediterranean) in other words they consider Israel itself to be "occupied" land. So, if that's what you mean, there is nothing to talk about there.

If you see official Israeli maps, it includes Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem. So if Israel really gives up those occupied territories, than Hamas might do the same and give up on Israel. But for this to happen, Israel needs to talk to Hamas, as it did in the past with Fatah.





Israel WILL get away with it or the Middle East will cease to exist (if you get my drift). I hope for everyone's sake that it will be the former.

Equally so Palestinians will get away with it, or Israel will cease to exist. Any mass-extermination or mass etnic cleansing of Palestinians will eventually lead to the end of Israel.




If you mean Fatah's definition, theirs is a bit ambiguous. If they really do mean to have a two state solution, then my guess is that it will eventually come about but not before they too will compromise and agree to meet Israel's terms for it.

Compromise means that Israel too has to compromise, and agree to Palestinian terms for it.



Of course, if they won't be willing to do so, then that will betray their true intentions which is the same as Hamas's (I hope that's not the case) and then, my above comment applies.

No, they want a two-state solution, but not only on Israel's conditions. It should be a compromise between the two, with the UN-resolutions as guidelines and the international community as mediator.




Who are the "you people" to whom you are referring? This forum has a variety of opinions although most of us are supporters of Israel.

I mean people like you(I'm not 100% sure about you, since you try to hide your true intentions, you know that if you openly advocate etnic cleansing it makes your moral position weaker), cando, steven, newsguy, and many others, the majority on this forum, who don't want any rational compromise with the Palestinians, and don't want to give up occupied territory, and want to get rid of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs alltogether.





And where did I say that I hate Obama? Please show me the link or apologise for putting your foot in your mouth again.

Where did I say that I hate Israel, that I'm anti-Israel, that I support Jihad? (which you said or implied many times) I asked you to prove it or apologise, but you never did.
Maybe you didn't say you hate him, but most on this forum showed their utter dislike for him. I read the threads about Obama during the elections, eventough I didn't participate (just once), I'm sure you did too.






This is how I feel about Obama: I don't know what he will be like but he strikes me as a capable articulate person. In spite of his positive talk prior to the elections, I won't pretend that I don't have concerns about how he will deal with Israel and other issues but I hope that he will behave with integrity and wisdom, we will see. If he will, then I wish him all the best. Either way, the American electors are the ones whose judgement will ultimately count.

We will see, indeed. But I have the feeling that there'll be a positive change. During his speech he said many positive things, among which that we shouldn't see the Arab and muslim world as ennemies, but as allies and friends.
He already said many times that he will angage more on the Middle East, that he wants to talk to Iran and Syria, that peace between Israel and the Palestinians is the key to resolving many problems in the Middle East, and that he supports a two-state solution.

[Mediocrates]

The far left takes unassailable platitudes and calls that a virtue. Basically they look at Obama who says "Let's see?" and uses that as a lever to make up straw men and nonsense about how everyone and everything else is a war crime. In fact, if you go to any left leaning blog or the readers letters to The Economist, you'll find that the truly ideologically retarded left are already calling Obama Bush the Third. In the UK the Workers Daily called Obama "The World's #1 Terrorist"

I applaud their insanity. Why? Because it shows them to be the gadflies and dead enders they've always been.

Two state solution? Ok. Like 2/3rds of Israelis have been saying for 3 years. Talk to Iran? We already do, through third parties. Talk to Syria? The US didn't pull its ambassador out until 2005 when Syria assassinated the President of Lebanon.

But why am I wasting breath on fools. Anyone with a browser can find all this out in about 10 seconds.

[takeo]

This is for those who lie that the Arab world doesn't want peace with Israel:

Official translation of the full text of a Saudi-inspired peace plan adopted by the Arab summit in Beirut, 2002.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Arab Peace Initiative

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session,

Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government,

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel,

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity.

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For purposes of comparison, the following is an earlier draft discussed by Arab foreign ministers on 25 March, 2002, in advance of the summit:

The Council of the Arab League, which convenes at the level of a summit on March 27-28, 2002 in Beirut, affirms the Arab position that achieving just and comprehensive peace is a strategic choice and goal for the Arab states.

After the Council heard the statement of Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz in which he called for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel, and that Israel declares its readiness to withdraw from the occupied Arab territories in compliance with United Nations resolutions 242 and 338 and Security Council resolution 1397, enhanced by the Madrid conference and the land-for-peace principle, and the acceptance of an independent, sovereign Palestinian state with al-Quds al-Sharif as its capital, the Council calls on the Israeli government to review its policy and to resort to peace while declaring that just peace is its strategic option.

The Council also calls on Israel to assert the following:

Complete withdrawal from the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including full withdrawal from the occupied Syrian Golan Heights and the remaining occupied parts of south Lebanon to the June 4, 1967 lines.

To accept to find an agreed, just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees in conformity with Resolution 194.

To accept an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian lands occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and with Jerusalem (al-Quds al-Sharif) as its capital in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1397.

In return, the Arab states assert the following:

To consider the Arab-Israeli conflict over and to enter into a peace treaty with Israel to consolidate this.

To achieve comprehensive peace for all the states of the region.

To establish normal relations within the context of comprehensive peace with Israel.

The Council calls on the Israeli government and the Israelis as a whole to accept this initiative to protect the prospects of peace and to spare bloodshed so as to enable the Arab states and Israel to coexist side by side and to provide for the coming generations a secure, stable and prosperous future.

It calls on the international community with all its organisations and states to support the initiative.

The Council calls on its presidency, its secretary general and its follow-up committee to follow up on the special contacts related to this initiative and to support it on all levels, including the United Nations, the United States, Russia, the European Union and the Security Council.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Israel turned it down.

[takeo]

The far left takes unassailable platitudes and calls that a virtue. Basically they look at Obama who says "Let's see?" and uses that as a lever to make up straw men and nonsense about how everyone and everything else is a war crime. In fact, if you go to any left leaning blog or the readers letters to The Economist, you'll find that the truly ideologically retarded left are already calling Obama Bush the Third. In the UK the Workers Daily called Obama "The World's #1 Terrorist"

I applaud their insanity. Why? Because it shows them to be the gadflies and dead enders they've always been.

Two state solution? Ok. Like 2/3rds of Israelis have been saying for 3 years. Talk to Iran? We already do, through third parties. Talk to Syria? The US didn't pull its ambassador out until 2005 when Syria assassinated the President of Lebanon.

But why am I wasting breath on fools. Anyone with a browser can find all this out in about 10 seconds.

Even among leftsts there are extremists and irrational people, I agree. Which is equally the case among rightists.
But everyone with a browser can equally find out in 10 seconds that Bush included Iran on the list of evil, that the US doesn't talk to "terrorist-supporting states", that there've been repeated calls and plans to invade Iran, that Bush didn't do anything to promote a two-state solution, that Israel continued to expand colonies in occupied territories, and that the most likely winner of next elections in Israel is opposed to a two-state solution.
It takes less than 10 seconds to see that most participants on this forum don't want a two-state solution.

[Mediocrates]

Of course. Israel isn't surrendering Golan and the entirety of the West Bank and E Jerusalem. This is old news.

[Rob]

So were the nazi-Germans.

What? Nazi Germany was a peacefull society for nazi´s?

Your fascination with the nazi´s is very uncanny.

[takeo]

What? Nazi Germany was a peacefull society for nazi´s?

Your fascination with the nazi´s is very uncanny.

It was a peaceful, civilised society for Germans (who didn't oppose the regime), and ONLY for Germans. For Poles, Jews, Russians, etc. is was a nightmare.

Israel is a peaceful, civilised society for Jews, but for Palestinians it's a nightmare.(not a nightmare like for the Jews under nazi-rule, but still a nightmare)

[CanDo]

CanDo

That's not rational at all, both sides made mistakes and committed crimes.

As an example of the terror of the Palestinian beasts, on May 2, 2004 Palestinian terrorists committed the following despicable murder:


Jerusalem----May 2....Palestinian terrorists murdered 4 young Jewish children and their pregnant mother this afternoon. The terror attack targeted the family vehicle while it was traveling on the road that leads to the Gaza Strip settlement bloc of Gush Katif.

...

After spraying the station wagen with bullets, the Palestinian terrorists walked up to the 4 terrified little girls and shot each one of them twice in the head, police said. The 8-month-old pregnant mother was shot in her belly at point blank range as she tried to cover her children

The victims of the attack were identified as Tali Hatuel, 34, and her daughters Hila (11), Hadar (9), Roni (7) and Merav (2). Tali's husband was not in the car at the time of the attack, ynet reported. The Hatuels lived on the Gush Katif settlement of Katif.


http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestineterrorism127691.html

Palestinians passed out candy and celebrated these murders! :mad:

This is just one of many atrocities committed by the Arabs against Jews over 60+ years.

These are the types of sub-human Arab beasts that you want to reward with their own state!? What is it with you? The more beastial and savage the Arab culture the more you want to benefit them? Is your mind that depraved and sick?

[Madeline]

Iraq had a christian prime minister untill 2003, and no christians were persecuted. Since the American invasion most christians fled Iraq, to Syria. This are the facts.
And they fled because..........of other Christians? Or other Muslims? Think before you type.

[CanDo]

In the early 40's, Palestinians owned the bulk of the land, and constituted a clear majority.

You are not interested in the truth. Your twisted, racist mind is only interested in pushing your obnoxious, self-centered interests.

Some documented, historical facts about Palestine:

Source Jewish Virtual Library: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/Mandatoryper.html#b1

Relevant question: “Did the British help Jews displace the native Arab population of Palestine?”


"In 1921, Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine — some 35,000 square miles — to create a brand new Arab entity, Transjordan. As a consolation prize for the Hejaz and Arabia (which are both now Saudi Arabia) going to the Saud family, Churchill rewarded Sherif Hussein’s son Abdullah for his contribution to the war against Turkey by installing him as Transjordan’s emir.

The British went further and placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in what remained of Palestine, contradicting the provision of the Mandate (Article 6) stating that “the Administration of Palestine...shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency...close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes.” By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews."

The Arabs were alloted 87,500 acres of the best land in the area, and the Jews were alloted 4,250 acres!

Jews turned desert into beauty and the Arabs turned cultivable land into blood and misery.

Why would any reasonable person want to give the racist, religiously intolerant, backward, hateful Arabs/Muslims any more land. They don't deserve what they have now!

[takeo]

You are not interested in the truth. Your twisted, racist mind is only interested in pushing your obnoxious, self-centered interests.

Some documented, historical facts about Palestine:

Source Jewish Virtual Library: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/Mandatoryper.html#b1

Relevant question: “Did the British help Jews displace the native Arab population of Palestine?”


"In 1921, Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine — some 35,000 square miles — to create a brand new Arab entity, Transjordan. As a consolation prize for the Hejaz and Arabia (which are both now Saudi Arabia) going to the Saud family, Churchill rewarded Sherif Hussein’s son Abdullah for his contribution to the war against Turkey by installing him as Transjordan’s emir.

The British went further and placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in what remained of Palestine, contradicting the provision of the Mandate (Article 6) stating that “the Administration of Palestine...shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency...close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes.” By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews."

The Arabs were alloted 87,500 acres of the best land in the area, and the Jews were alloted 4,250 acres!

Jews turned desert into beauty and the Arabs turned cultivable land into blood and misery.

Why would any reasonable person want to give the racist, religiously intolerant, backward, hateful Arabs/Muslims any more land. They don't deserve what they have now!


This is an exact copy of one of my posts from 2005:

The Jewish population in the region increased from 11% of the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940[2] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/78601.stm).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#...Ottoman_Empire

By the end of the 19th century, the Jewish population of Palestine numbered 60,000, about 15% of the land's entire population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_P...estine_to_1917

By 1930, all the land capable of being cultivated by the indigenous Palestinians with the resources available to them was already under cultivation (Frances Newton, Fifty Years in Palestine, Coldharbor, 1940, p. 253).

Sir John hope Simpson undertook a comprehensive studying of Palestinian agricultural potential in 1930. He concluded that

"it has emerged quite definitely that there is at the present time and with the present methods of Arab cultivation no margin of land available for agricultural settlements by new immigrants"

(Palestine, Report on immigration, land settlement and development, Sir John Hope Simpson, cmnd 3686, His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1930).

Subcommittee II of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, established in September 1947 issued a report in November 1947 which stated under item 63:

"The village statistics for 1945 prepared by the Palestine administration and showing the position as at 1 April 1945 furnish interesting data regarding land's ownership in Palestine. The total Arab land ownership is given in dunums (4 dunums equals approximately 1 acre), as being 12,574,774, as against a total Jewish ownership of 1,491,699. [...] The following figures are of particular interest:
CATEGORY OF CROPS OWNERSHIP

Arabs Jews (in dunums)

Citrus 135,368 139,728
Bananas 1,843 1,079
Plantations 1,052,222 94,167
Taxcable cereals (categories 9-13) 5,653,346 869,109
Taxcable cereals (categories 14-15) 823,046 67,839


Item 64 of that same report stated:
"The above statistics of population and of land ownership prove conclusively that the Arabs constitute a majority of the population of the proposed Jewisch State, and own the bulk of the land"

(Source: Doc. C74 UNSCOP Report to the UNGA, Documents on Palestine, vol. 1, pp. 165, PASSIA, December 1997)."

(I know I have posted this already a number of times on this forum, but some people continue to ignore facts and repeat lies while calling me a lier... so you really have to push the facts under their eyes if not they continue denying facts. And the fact I don't believe israel was empty or almost empty before the arrival of zionist colonisers doesn't mean I'm anti-Israel or Jewhating, unless you can prove so I would advise anyone to refrain from such unbased statements. I'm sick and tired people calling me a lier without ever being able to show me where I lied and I'm even more sick of people lying I'm a jewhater without being able to prove it and without ever admitting they were wrong. I'm sick and tired of the double standard and lies of many ultra-rightwing posters on this site, it is not an honest debate.

[takeo]

And they fled because..........of other Christians? Or other Muslims? Think before you type.

The fact is that christians weren't persecuted before the American invasion. Since the invasion and American military presence, most Iraqi christians fled to Syria. They fled because of a number of reasons, primarily the insecurity, civil war and extremism which florished as a result of the American invasion. This is what I predicted would happen in Iraq if the US would invade Iraq, and a clear example of how occupation and foreign intervention contributes to fundamentalism, instability and extremism.
According to Bush Saddam's Iraq and Assad's Syria are (were) the worst regimes in the Arab world, but under these regimes christians are (were) safe and are (were) not persecuted, but on the contrary enjoy(ed) a priviliged position. So yes, it's true, the US-intervention changed the region... to the worse...
Next step I presume you want is to overthrow Assad in Syria, right?

[Mediocrates]

Jews out peace in. We get it. A Jew free Palestine from the Sinai to Basra. Really we get it, we really do.

[Mediocrates]

Today is a truly black day for dead ender communists. This day in history Lenin died.

[Madeline]

Jews out peace in. We get it. A Jew free Palestine from the Sinai to Basra. Really we get it, we really do.
:clap:
What a nice pipe dream that is. Tells ya how delusional some people are if the really believe that.

[bararallu]

And they fled because..........of other Christians? Or other Muslims? Think before you type.

They didnt just flee. Iraq's Jewish comununity is one of the most ancient, existent since the exile into Assyria and Babylonia actually. Today there are less then 20-30 elderly Jews there, living incognito. This from a healthy and vibrant community of 125k-150k people. He doesn't mention that the Farhoud massacre of 1941, 7 years prior to the founding of Israel, killed and injured hundreds of people. He doesnt mention that then King Ghazi, who was one of the first Pan-Arabist aped the fashionable Nazi doctrine, imposed a special tax on Jews, and was great friends with Hitler’s ambassador to Baghdad, Fritz Grobba. He doesnt mention that the Germans had their eyes on the country’s oil, and backed Arab nationalists and religionists vs the British and aligned (WW2 Alies that included Zionist) interests. He doesnt mention that Futuwaa, a brown shirt modeled group, began to threaten Jews in the streets and visting them at night with threats and beatings. He doesn't mention the constant state of fear and intimidation to liquidate the Jewish community and absorb their wealth, like so many other expulsions of Jews in history. Including the one in France in 1306 (and before that as well). Takeo takes the soylent green approach to Jewish ethnic cleansing... only when you are taken in a truck and dropped of the edge of the border are you cleansed. He doesnt talk about how real events unfold, whether being carpet bombed by Russia, or having the secret police and paramilitary group, threaten, beat, murder and rape you out of your ancient land of residency in a matter of a few short years.

No Takeo excludes these parts. He doesn't mention that in 1951 the Iraqi Government passed legislation that made affiliation with Zionism a felony and ordered, "the expulsion of Jews who refused to sign a statement of anti-Zionism." (Google for siltation) This forced the last tens of thousands of Jews out Iraq, while their property was confiscated by the state. He doesn't mention that Jewish prayer books have Zionism built in, the return to Zion... we all say next year in Jerusalem. Takeo is just another version (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=4&x_outlet=12&x_article=1352) of a Holocaust revisionist, whitewashing Nazi inspired actions against Jews by Arabs... In fact he is now supporting the Nazis outright, saying that the Germans lived in peace.... who is he kidding... LOL, where the people that disagreed with Hitler living there in peace? The royalists, the homosexuals, the objectors to war, the non Nazi party members of other political parties. Takeo is a liar that everyday builds on his house of cards.

He is also quick to shift the burden of proof, making statements and have others back up their counter position, exactly opposite of proper debate. This is what kind of cowardly, hateful, anti-Semitic person Takeo is.

[bararallu]

So Takeo,

You whitewash Muslim Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews; w/o any proof accusing us of committing genocide against the Arabs where they actually called out for one and tried to execute it on a number of occasions on us and now you defend the Nazis. How wonderful is it to be you.

I continue to address your pathetic posts, again like an adult, now please address the questions put to you in multiple posts. Clarify your support for minority self determination.

Do you or do you not believe that the following minorities should have the right to self determine:

Alsatians
Corsicans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica)
Brettons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_nationalism)
Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Basque_Country)
Chechnya in Russia, Bolochis and Kurds in Iran, Druze in Syria, Copts in Egypt.

And explain to us in clear terms why France has not signed on to an important human rights convention- the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/157.htm)?

[Madeline]

They didnt just flee. Iraq's Jewish comununity is one of the most ancient, existent since the exile into Assyria and Babylonia actually. Today there are less then 20-30 elderly Jews there, living incognito. This from a healthy and vibrant community of 125k-150k people. He doesn't mention that the Farhoud massacre of 1941, 7 years prior to the founding of Israel, killed and injured hundreds of people. He doesnt mention that then King Ghazi, who was one of the first Pan-Arabist aped the fashionable Nazi doctrine, imposed a special tax on Jews, and was great friends with Hitler’s ambassador to Baghdad, Fritz Grobba. He doesnt mention that the Germans had their eyes on the country’s oil, and backed Arab nationalists and religionists vs the British and aligned (WW2 Alies that included Zionist) interests. He doesnt mention that Futuwaa, a brown shirt modeled group, began to threaten Jews in the streets and visting them at night with threats and beatings. He doesn't mention the constant state of fear and intimidation to liquidate the Jewish community and absorb their wealth, like so many other expulsions of Jews in history. Including the one in France in 1306 (and before that as well). Takeo takes the soylent green approach to Jewish ethnic cleansing... only when you are taken in a truck and dropped of the edge of the border are you cleansed. He doesnt talk about how real events unfold, whether being carpet bombed by Russia, or having the secret police and paramiliraty groups, threaten, beat, murder and rape you out of your ancient land of residency in a matter of a few short years.

No Takeo excludes these parts. He doesn't mention that in 1951 the Iraqi Government passed legislation that made affiliation with Zionism a felony and ordered, "the expulsion of Jews who refused to sign a statement of anti-Zionism." (Google for siltation) This forced the last tens of thousands of Jews out Iraq, while their property was confiscated by the state. He doesn't mention that Jewish prayer books have Zionism built in, the return to Zion... we all say next year in Jerusalem. Takeo is just another version (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=4&x_outlet=12&x_article=1352) of a Holocaust revisionist, whitewashing Nazi inspired actions against Jews by Arabs... In fact he is now supporting the Nazis outright, saying that the Germans lived in peace.... who is he kidding... LOL, where the people that disagreed with Hitler living there in peace? The royalists, the homosexuals, the objectors to war, the non Nazi party members of other political parties. Takeo is a liar that everyday builds on his house of cards.

He is also quick to shift the burden of proof, making statements and have others back up their counter position, exactly opposite of proper debate. This is what kind of cowardly, hateful, anti-Semitic person Takeo is.

I pointed out to takeo once the fact that, taking all his posts I head read thus far into consideration, that he is an antisemite. Didn't go over too well, even though he confirms as much every day. Yes, a holocaust revisionist sums it up. May be he learned from that 'great Iranian spin doctor', and reads up on all thee truths brought forth by that regime. Do they have Koolaide in Iran.. how about France?

[Sharona]

Question......


I wasn't even born in 1948, but my understanding of Palestine is that it was a barren, unkempt, unloved backwater of the crumbled Ottoman empire.

So, my question is, why didn't the surrounding Arab nations fight harder to extricate the numerous occupiers of the past (Greeks, Romans, Turks, Brits, etc) and also to turn this backwater of swamp and desert into a country fit for their brothers to live in?

I realise this is anecdotal, but my neighbour was a young British soldier drafted into National Service and sent to Palestine. His memories are indeed of a barren, inhospitable and forgotten country, where the population were often to be found living hand-to-mouth and in squalid conditions.

It seems to me that no Arab nation truly fought its heart out for Palestine and its rather down-trodden majority before it became Israel.

Or have I made a glaring mistake in my assumptions here?

[bararallu]

I pointed out to takeo once the fact that, taking all his posts I head read thus far into consideration, that he is an antisemite. Didn't go over too well, even though he confirms as much every day. Yes, a holocaust revisionist sums it up. May be he learned from that 'great Iranian spin doctor', and reads up on all thee truths brought forth by that regime. Do they have Koolaide in Iran.. how about France?

He's not only an Anti-Semite... he whitewashes other atrocities against other people, by extending his protection of Arab deeds and words (In synergy with Russian, Soviet and often French policies and violations of the same international standards he accuses Americans and Israelis of). He consequently whitewashes the ethnic cleansing of Assyrians from Iraq, claiming everything was always dandy where it was not. He omits that the whole of the ancient Christian Greek community of Alexandria was ethnically cleansed by Nasser et al from Egypt. He omits that the whole Karaite (non rabbinical) Jewish Community (that were not in the least aligned with modern political Zionism) where ethnically cleansed from Egypt. He collectively downplays an eon of humiliation and persecution minorities faced in Muslim Arab controlled areas, the dhimma laws, the extortions, threats and hardships that forces many minorities from the ME. Muslim and certainly otherwise, including almost all endogenous Christian communities like Copts and Maronites, as well as Zoroastrians, Druze and others .

[Toadstool46]

Jews out peace in. We get it. A Jew free Palestine from the Sinai to Basra. Really we get it, we really do.

I understand that this is what they want us to believe but...... After the Jews were all gone they would move on to the next....


Reality is this " A totally muzlim world may be peacefull." That is the ultimate goal of these backward radicles.

[Y. Shulamith]

I've got a kind of stupid question.....exactly what is wrong with the women of the middle east? Why are they so hot to allow their children be killed over politics/religion/jihadist nonsense, as such?

I am serious. I look into the eyes of my kid and I would never, ever, let him get in harms' way, let alone wish death, martyrdom, and all this crazy shit that goes on. Why don't these women have any sense of the milk of human kindness and what the hell has happened to any kind of love that a mother and hopefully, a father has that he would like to see his kids grow up, be happy, have a life, go to school, etc?

Persecuted people the world over wished for better for their children and I can't understand the perverted mind and world that ME women whose men/children are involved with this whole Jihadist thing are coming from.

Can anyone enlighten me?

[Reffo]

"From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not “hide behind the population”, the population views them as their only defenders."


I agree....everyone helps Hamas, even the sympathisers of Fatah. That's why a victory against Hamas is impossible without whiping out the entire population.So, can you please explain why Israel's blockade, in response to thousands of rockets launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians is considered to be "Collective Punishment" against innocent Palestinians? By people like you?

[Madeline]

I've got a kind of stupid question.....exactly what is wrong with the women of the middle east? Why are they so hot to allow their children be killed over politics/religion/jihadist nonsense, as such?

I am serious. I look into the eyes of my kid and I would never, ever, let him get in harms' way, let alone wish death, martyrdom, and all this crazy shit that goes on. Why don't these women have any sense of the milk of human kindness and what the hell has happened to any kind of love that a mother and hopefully, a father has that he would like to see his kids grow up, be happy, have a life, go to school, etc?

Persecuted people the world over wished for better for their children and I can't understand the perverted mind and world that ME women whose men/children are involved with this whole Jihadist thing are coming from.

Can anyone enlighten me?
I'll try answering it. Yours is a great question.
And no, andak, I don't have reference for it, just call it a hunch.
Muslim women have been oppressed for as long as can be, of course with a healthy dose of brainwashing. Islamic ideology is very convenient for men, no need for them to change it. Snowball it from there...
Am I wrong?

Wasn't there another post? Jikes, am I losing it?

And what doe that mean? ***************
*عذراً غزه*

[dayag]

I'll try answering it. Yours is a great question.
And no, andak, I don't have reference for it, just call it a hunch.
Muslim women have been oppressed for as long as can be, of course with a healthy dose of brainwashing. Islamic ideology is very convenient for men, no need for them to change it. Snowball it from there...
Am I wrong?

Wasn't there another post? Jikes, am I losing it?

And what doe that mean? ***************
*عذراً غزه*

Madeline, the Arabic phrase (عذراً غزه) means "sorry Gaza"

[KettleWhistle]

I've got a kind of stupid question.....exactly what is wrong with the women of the middle east? Why are they so hot to allow their children be killed over politics/religion/jihadist nonsense, as such?

I am serious. I look into the eyes of my kid and I would never, ever, let him get in harms' way, let alone wish death, martyrdom, and all this crazy shit that goes on. Why don't these women have any sense of the milk of human kindness and what the hell has happened to any kind of love that a mother and hopefully, a father has that he would like to see his kids grow up, be happy, have a life, go to school, etc?

Persecuted people the world over wished for better for their children and I can't understand the perverted mind and world that ME women whose men/children are involved with this whole Jihadist thing are coming from.

Can anyone enlighten me?
It has nothing to do with jihad. It's just Arab mentality. Children are expendable. It's not that they are not loved or appreciated, just expendable. An Arab who decides to, say, shoot at IDF soldiers is not ususally going to go out and expose himself. He'll send his child out to draw the soldiers out. Then the other child, his wife, etc. Because he can always make more children or get another wife. That's just the way their culture works, and frankly, it works very well for them.

Here's a McClatchy article about American experience in Afghanistan. I highlighted some of the differences between Afghans/Taliban and the Arabs.

DELARAM, Afghanistan — On a sunset patrol here in late December, U.S. Marines spotted a Taliban unit trying to steal Afghan police vehicles at a checkpoint. In a flash, the Marines turned to pursue, driving off the main road and toward the gunfire coming from the mountain a half mile away.
But their six-ton vehicles were no match for the Taliban pickups. The mine-resistant vehicles and heavily armored Humvees bucked and swerved as drivers tried to maneuver them across fields that the Taliban vehicles raced across. The Afghan police trailed behind in unarmored pick-up trucks, impatient about their allies' weighty pace.
The Marines, weighted down with 60 pounds of body armor each, struggled to climb up Saradaka Mountain . Once at the top, it was clear to everyone that the Taliban would get away. Second Lt. Phil Gilreath , 23, of Kingwood, La., called off the mission.
"It would be a ghost chase, and we would run the risk of the vehicles breaking down again," Gilreath said. The Marines spent the next hour trying to find their way back to the paved road.
The men of the 3rd Batallion, 8th Marine Regiment , based at Camp Lejeune , are discovering in their first two months in Afghanistan that the tactics they learned in nearly six years of combat in Iraq are of little value here — and may even inhibit their ability to fight their Taliban foes.
Their MRAP mine-resistant vehicles, which cost $1 million each, were specially developed to combat the terrible effects of roadside bombs, the single biggest killer of Americans in Iraq . But Iraq is a country of highways and paved roads, and the heavily armored vehicles are cumbersome on Afghanistan's unpaved roads and rough terrain where roadside bombs are much less of a threat.
Body armor is critical to warding off snipers in Iraq , where Sunni Muslim insurgents once made video of American soldiers falling to well-placed sniper shots a staple of recruiting efforts. But the added weight makes Marines awkward and slow when they have to dismount to chase after Taliban gunmen in Afghanistan's rough terrain.
Even the Humvees, finally carrying heavy armor after years of complaints that they did little to mitigate the impact of roadside explosives in Iraq , are proving a liability. Marines say the heavy armor added for protection in Iraq is too rough on the vehicles' transmissions in Afghanistan's much hillier terrain, and the vehicles frequently break down — so often in fact that before every patrol Marine units here designate one Humvee as the tow vehicle.
The Marines have found other differences:
In Iraq , American forces could win over remote farmlands by swaying urban centers. In Afghanistan , there's little connection between the farmlands and the mudhut villages that pass for towns.
In Iraq , armored vehicles could travel on both the roads and the desert. Here, the paved roads are mostly for outsiders - travelers, truckers and foreign troops; to reach the populace, American forces must find unmapped caravan routes that run through treacherous terrain, routes not designed for their modern military vehicles.
In Iraq , a half-hour firefight was considered a long engagement; here, Marines have fought battles that have lasted as long as eight hours against an enemy whose attacking forces have grown from platoon-size to company-size.
U.S. military leaders recognize that they need to make adjustments. During a Christmas Eve visit here, Marine Commandant Gen. James T. Conway told the troops that the Defense Department is studying how to reconfigure the bottom of its MRAPs to handle Afghanistan's rougher terrain. And Col. Duffy White , the commander of the Special Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force , said he anticipates that Marines will be wearing less armor by spring, when fighting season begins again.
The next Marine battalion arriving here will need more troops and more helicopters. And because of terrain, patrols will change.
"Hopefully we have not become wedded to the vehicles," White said, a reference to the MRAPs, which currently are required for every patrol. "We have to set the standard operation procedure for how to do this. This not Iraq ."
Just how quickly the U.S. military can shift its weapons, tactics and mindset to Afghanistan after nearly seven years of training almost exclusively for Iraq is a major question as President-elect Barack Obama takes office promising to transfer combat units out of Iraq and into Afghanistan .
Students of the Iraq war know that change came slowly and only after years of casualties made worse by inadequate equipment.
As in Iraq , where the U.S. didn't increase the number of troops, despite the growing insurgency and violence until 2007, U.S. forces Afghanistan fear they are undermanned, despite the Pentagon's plan to double the U.S. troops in Afghanistan to 60,000.
The 3,000 troops here are in charge of an area with few city centers that is roughly the size of Vermont . In Washir, the neighboring district, the Taliban operates freely because there are not enough troops.
"They tell me that Afghanistan is Iraq on steroids," said Gilreath, who is on his first deployment and hasn't served in Iraq .
But 40 percent of the ] has served previously in Iraq's Anbar province. Indeed, the ] was originally scheduled to deploy to the Iraqi/Syrian border and learned just two months before it shipped out that it was headed to Afghanistan instead. By then they had finished most of their training, all of it geared toward Iraq .

[KettleWhistle]

So they are learning on the ground.
At times, Afghanistan can feel deceptively like Iraq , they say. During a patrol that found the Marines surrounded by poppy fields, they spotted two men on a motorcycle trailing them. It was the only other vehicle on an otherwise unused paved road.

"You see that. They're watching us," Gilreath radioed to his fellow Marines.

In Iraq , such trailing often meant an attack was imminent. But not here. Marines said it could be months before the Taliban turns that information into an attack.

"The lack of attacks has me asking: Are we doing something right or wrong?" asked company commander Capt. Sven Gosnell , 36, of Torrance, Calif. , an Iraqi veteran.

When the Taliban does take on the Marines, it's a different kind of fight, Marines said. For one, the Taliban 'll wait until they're ready, not just when an opportunity appears. They'll clear the area of women and children, not use them as shields. And when the attack comes, it's often a full-scale attack, with flanks, trenches and a plan, said one Marine captain and Iraq veteran who asked not to be identified because he wasn't sure he was allowed to discuss tactics.
Afghans "are willing to fight to the death. They recover their wounded, just like we do," said the captain. "When I am fighting here, I am fighting a professional army. If direct fighting does not work, they will go to an IED. They plan their ammunition around poppy season. To fight them, you are pulling every play out of the playbook."

U.S. troops also are frustrated by the different rules of engagement they must operate under in Afghanistan . Until Jan. 1 , U.S. forces in Iraq operated under their own rules of engagement. If they saw something suspicious, they could kick down a door, search a home or detain a suspicious person.
But in Afghanistan , they operate under the rules of the NATO -led International Security Assistance Force, of which U.S. troops are part. Under those regulations, only Afghans can search buildings and detain people.

Gilreath felt that frustration shortly after he spotted the trailing motorcycle. Radio chatter mentioned a local bomb-making factory, though it didn't say where. Gilreath decided to investigate two nearby homes. Trailing behind was one Afghan police truck, the only one available that day.

The Marines secured the perimeter and the handful of Afghan police officers searched one clay structure, then the other. But they moved slowly. Some Marines started peeking the windows, doing their best to honor ISAF rules and still satisfy their urge to search.

As the burka-clad women huddled with their children outside, and the men tried to assure the Marines they were law abiding, a single Afghan man began walking off through a nearby field. There weren't enough Afghan police to both search the homes and stop the man.
"We just need more everything," Gilreath said afterward.

[Madeline]

Madeline, the Arabic phrase (عذراً غزه) means "sorry Gaza"

Thank you dear.

[Reffo]

I am as patient as you are Takeo. You keep on repeating your polemics and I'll respond to you till you drop. And I'll repeat myself as many times as you will, OK? :cool:


I'll say it again: Hamas's definition of "Occupation" is: The land from the river (Jordan) to the sea (the Mediterranean) in other words they consider Israel itself to be "occupied" land. So, if that's what you mean, there is nothing to talk about there.

If you see official Israeli maps, it includes Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem. So if Israel really gives up those occupied territories, than Hamas might do the same and give up on Israel. But for this to happen, Israel needs to talk to Hamas, as it did in the past with Fatah.In 2000/2001 Barak offered the Palestinians 100% of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank and other lands to offset the remaining 3%. Yet I didn't see Hamas change it's charter, why is that Takeo? They might do the same huh?


Israel WILL get away with it or the Middle East will cease to exist (if you get my drift). I hope for everyone's sake that it will be the former.

Equally so Palestinians will get away with it, or Israel will cease to exist. Any mass-extermination or mass etnic cleansing of Palestinians will eventually lead to the end of Israel.What I said above was that if ever the situation will deteriorate to the extent that Israel's existence will be in serious jeopardy, then good bye Middle East and now you have gone and twisted it every which way .... Oh well, typical Takeo :vomit:

By the way, what will the Palestinians get away with? Israel's destruction? Only in your and (many of) their dreams ....


If you mean Fatah's definition, theirs is a bit ambiguous. If they really do mean to have a two state solution, then my guess is that it will eventually come about but not before they too will compromise and agree to meet Israel's terms for it.

Compromise means that Israel too has to compromise, and agree to Palestinian terms for it.Given the fact that Israel was subject to genocidal hatred, violence and wars ever since (and Palestine's Jews even before) it was created, Israel has already shown willingness to compromise, perhaps too much so...

Now, the formula is simple: Land in exchange for peace! And how would Israel know that the peace treaty would have a chance to hold? By getting the Palestinian Arabs to formally show that their past pretexts for war no longer apply, namely:

Renounce their so called right of return demand
Recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people (nation)

What is formally? In writing and I would advocate that before any Palestinian leader signs such a declaration, the whole peace deal/package that would be hammered out via negotiations (including the above 2 items) would need to be ratified via a referendum of all the Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. Because without it being endorsed by the majority of the people, any such agreement would not be worth the paper that it would be written on ...

To be continued..

[KiwiWriter]

If you see official Israeli maps, it includes Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem. So if Israel really gives up those occupied territories, than Hamas might do the same and give up on Israel. But for this to happen, Israel needs to talk to Hamas, as it did in the past with Fatah.



And if you look at official Hamas maps, they are of all of Israel.

[Mediocrates]

Ive never understood the far left's assertion that countries can't legally have control over their own borders. This claim that somehow if Israel allows the Palestinians their own state and then erects a barrier between them that that's somehow illegal.

[Reffo]

Who are the "you people" to whom you are referring? This forum has a variety of opinions although most of us are supporters of Israel.

I mean people like you(I'm not 100% sure about you, since you try to hide your true intentionsMoi? Hide my intentions? :unsure: How am I doing that? I have been very open with you and how I feel about people with your kind of views :vomit:


you know that if you openly advocate etnic cleansing it makes your moral position weaker)Show me a single thing that I ever said that would lead one to believe that I advocate ethnic cleansing? You are just another hater who is ready to spread blood libels against individuals and the Jews collectively :mad:


And where did I say that I hate Obama? Please show me the link or apologise for putting your foot in your mouth again.

Where did I say that I hate Israel, that I'm anti-Israel, that I support Jihad? (which you said or implied many times) I asked you to prove it or apologise, but you never did. Your compulsive repetition of blood libels against Israel and I quote you (as Medio puts it):

Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing..... genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide..... Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel...... Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians.....

Is that enough of a hint for you?


This is how I feel about Obama: I don't know what he will be like but he strikes me as a capable articulate person. In spite of his positive talk prior to the elections, I won't pretend that I don't have concerns about how he will deal with Israel and other issues but I hope that he will behave with integrity and wisdom, we will see. If he will, then I wish him all the best. Either way, the American electors are the ones whose judgement will ultimately count.

We will see, indeed. But I have the feeling that there'll be a positive change. During his speech he said many positive things, among which that we shouldn't see the Arab and muslim world as ennemies, but as allies and friends.I am all for that if only they too will do their bit to demonstrate that they are actually friends and allies. Saying so and repeating it is not enough, deluding ourselves is not enough.

It is not enough for Obama to get the US and it's allies to do "positive things" (as you put it) the Arabs and the Muslim world too will have to start to do "positive things". They should stop acting as victims and should start recognizing that many of them are victimizers. Quid pro quo might work but if it will be one sided appeasement, then Obama too will learn the lessons of history that other appeasers learnt before him! I actually am hoping that Obama is not/will not be an appeaser, as I said, I hope he will act with integrity and wisdom.



.

[KiwiWriter]

Ive never understood the far left's assertion that countries can't legally have control over their own borders. This claim that somehow if Israel allows the Palestinians their own state and then erects a barrier between them that that's somehow illegal.

Haven't the EU erected a security barrier of their own?

[Reffo]

It seems to me that no Arab nation truly fought its heart out for Palestine and its rather down-trodden majority before it became Israel.

Or have I made a glaring mistake in my assumptions here? No you have not! You are 100% right!

Moreover, between 1948 and 1967 Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank was under the control of Jordan. Yet it didn't seem to occur to ANY Arab at that time to establish the independent state of Palestine on the very same land that is NOW under Israel's control. I wonder why did they start thinking like that ONLY after 1967?

[ItsMyJewty]

KiwiWriter: And if you look at official Hamas maps, they are of all of Israel.

The kids in Gaza are taught to fill in maps of Israel with the "Palestinian" flag. Since when has the West Bank been Arab land? Israel's small enough as it is!

[Y. Shulamith]

Kids in Gaza are a lost cause. Gaza is a lost cause. All Israel can do is to go in and clean house now and again and hope for the best, unless these peoples are given a chance to make good their threats, and arms smuggling not kept at bay, a strong leader like Netanyahu will be needed to make for a stronger defense then the left leaning liberals are able to stomach because of the realities of the situation in Israel. Strength is not to be found through Israeli capitulation and Bibi knows this....nice, nice doesn't win anything in this part of the world, where conventional kindness is seen as being meek and invites more vitriol, hatred and missiles.

[Madeline]

The fact is that christians weren't persecuted before the American invasion. Since the invasion and American military presence, most Iraqi christians fled to Syria. They fled because of a number of reasons, primarily the insecurity, civil war and extremism which florished as a result of the American invasion. This is what I predicted would happen in Iraq if the US would invade Iraq, and a clear example of how occupation and foreign intervention contributes to fundamentalism, instability and extremism.
According to Bush Saddam's Iraq and Assad's Syria are (were) the worst regimes in the Arab world, but under these regimes christians are (were) safe and are (were) not persecuted, but on the contrary enjoy(ed) a priviliged position. So yes, it's true, the US-intervention changed the region... to the worse...
Next step I presume you want is to overthrow Assad in Syria, right?


Takeo, do you actually know History, or does all of this come to you in your wishful thinking dream state? It is so easy to blame the "American Invasion" of Iraq for Islamic fundamentalism and extremism, the Muslim Ideology, but you are far off base, mon ami. What you refer to is nothing but a foul excuse. BTW, Mr. Meatgrinder would not have stopped at Christians, he just waited for the right time. He was systematic, and that is a fact.

[Sharona]

[QUOTE=Y. Shulamith;287282]I've got a kind of stupid question.....exactly what is wrong with the women of the middle east? Why are they so hot to allow their children be killed over politics/religion/jihadist nonsense, as such?
QUOTE]

I can't say I know either, but I'm wondering if 'honour' or 'hero' enters into the equation? Does a 'martyr' confer a sort of strange (to me, anyway) type of fame on his/her family?

You might be proud of your kid if he/she finds success in the world but with the likes of Fatah, Hamas et.al running the Gazan show, what possible chance have the kids got to emerge with a mindset that even seeks success in a way disconnected to war and hatred?

It seems to me from what I've seen of 'martyrs' in the UK, that they are generally young - clearly that's no accident. Young men are often trying to make their mark, are impressionable and easily swept up in a 'cause'.

Also in the UK we recently jailed a man for the honour killing of his daughter. What possesses a man to plot his own daughter's death with his male relatives, stuffing her body into a suitcase afterwards and burying it in a garden, simply because she was seeing another muslim who wasn't from her particular clan?(sorry, have no idea what the definitions are!)

Pride - of the strangest type - appears to be a possible factor here.

[takeo]

Madeline


Takeo, do you actually know History, or does all of this come to you in your wishful thinking dream state? It is so easy to blame the "American Invasion" of Iraq for Islamic fundamentalism and extremism, the Muslim Ideology, but you are far off base, mon ami. What you refer to is nothing but a foul excuse. BTW, Mr. Meatgrinder would not have stopped at Christians, he just waited for the right time. He was systematic, and that is a fact.


You people even deny simple facts. So according to you it's pure coincidence that Christians were murdered since 2003, by coincidence the same year the US invaded and occupied Iraq? And coincidentally al-quaida and islamic extremism started to take ground in Iraq in 2003, the year of the American invasion. That's truly very coincidentally, right? :rolleyes: sorry, but if you really think that, you are either very stupid or very indoctrinated.
You are saying that Saddam would have started murdering christians. But he didn't, he never did during his many years in power. On the contrary the christians were very privelleged and many Baath-party members were christians. The slaughter against christians started exactly when Saddam has been overthrown by your country, so you really think your country has no part in it? Anyway, I think you're too much brainwashed to even grasp reality.
You can search in the history of the forum about me in 2003 warning against the invasion of Iraq, I was insulted, called a moron because I didn't want to believe that this invasion was necessary, etc.

[takeo]

Kids in Gaza are a lost cause. Gaza is a lost cause. All Israel can do is to go in and clean house now and again and hope for the best, unless these peoples are given a chance to make good their threats, and arms smuggling not kept at bay, a strong leader like Netanyahu will be needed to make for a stronger defense then the left leaning liberals are able to stomach because of the realities of the situation in Israel. Strength is not to be found through Israeli capitulation and Bibi knows this....nice, nice doesn't win anything in this part of the world, where conventional kindness is seen as being meek and invites more vitriol, hatred and missiles.

So you want to kill all Gazans?

[takeo]

The kids in Gaza are taught to fill in maps of Israel with the "Palestinian" flag. Since when has the West Bank been Arab land? Israel's small enough as it is!

Westbank has never been a part of Israel.

[Madeline]

Madeline




You people even deny simple facts. So according to you it's pure coincidence that Christians were murdered since 2003, by coincidence the same year the US invaded and occupied Iraq? And coincidentally al-quaida and islamic extremism started to take ground in Iraq in 2003, the year of the American invasion. That's truly very coincidentally, right? :rolleyes: sorry, but if you really think that, you are either very stupid or very indoctrinated.
You are saying that Saddam would have started murdering christians. But he didn't, he never did during his many years in power. On the contrary the christians were very privelleged and many Baath-party members were christians. The slaughter against christians started exactly when Saddam has been overthrown by your country, so you really think your country has no part in it? Anyway, I think you're too much brainwashed to even grasp reality.
You can search in the history of the forum about me in 2003 warning against the invasion of Iraq, I was insulted, called a moron because I didn't want to believe that this invasion was necessary, etc.
You refuse to read what I wrote. Either that, or you don't comprehend.
"al-quaida and islamic extremism started to take ground in Iraq in 2003, the year of the American invasion. That's truly very coincidentally, right? :rolleyes:"

Now, let's try this again. Islamic Extremism did NOT start with the "invasion". It is a mindset that has existed long before. Get real, next you say its the gun that kills, not the one who pulls the trigger. You have a lot to learn. I realize that you are enthusiastic, but you have to think things through, not see them the way you want them to.
I am not debating the fact of America going into Iraq, we have a different thread for that. But please, do not confuse the urge to kill with anything but what it is.

[takeo]

Reffo



Moi? Hide my intentions? :unsure: How am I doing that? I have been very open with you and how I feel about people with your kind of views :vomit:

I'm also very open with you and how I feel about people with your kind of views... if I were in power people advocating etnic cleansing would be imprisoned, and they can share a jail with nazi's and Al-Quaida-members. Give each a knife and let the party begin...


Show me a single thing that I ever said that would lead one to believe that I advocate ethnic cleansing?

So many people on this forum propagate ethnic cleansing, bheeshma even propagated the slaughter of christians. Remaining quiet about it means consenting. But the only one you're criticising is ME, who advocates a two-state solution and peace!



You are just another hater who is ready to spread blood libels against individuals and the Jews collectively :mad:

That's a lie. Not against Jews collectively. Only against certain jews and non-Jews who's views are disgusting and unacceptable to me.



Your compulsive repetition of blood libels against Israel and I quote you (as Medio puts it):

Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing..... genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide..... Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel...... Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians.....

Well, if people propose "transfer" of Palestinians how else can you label it as "ethnic cleansing"? However I'm constantly bloodlibelled as anti-semitic, nazi, genocide against all Jews, etc. only because I don't agree with your views. You are clearly measuring with two standards. But I'm used to that on this forum, most people are utterly biased.



I am all for that if only they too will do their bit to demonstrate that they are actually friends and allies. Saying so and repeating it is not enough, deluding ourselves is not enough.

I posted the Arab peace-proposal on this thread. Israel refused.



It is not enough for Obama to get the US and it's allies to do "positive things" (as you put it) the Arabs and the Muslim world too will have to start to do "positive things".

They will, but you can only make peace with two. If Israel truly wants to negociate, than Arabs will too.





They should stop acting as victims and should start recognizing that many of them are victimizers.

they will do so if Israel too recognised the many crimes they committted against the Palestinians. Is Israel ready to do so? Maybe there should be a truth-commission like in South-Africa, where all crimes of both sides get investigated.



Quid pro quo might work but if it will be one sided appeasement, then Obama too will learn the lessons of history that other appeasers learnt before him! I actually am hoping that Obama is not/will not be an appeaser, as I said, I hope he will act with integrity and wisdom.

If he acts with wisdom and integrity he will pressure both Israel and the Arabs, not just the Arabs as happened under Clinton and Bush. Arabs must recognise Israel, Israel must withdraw and recognise the UN-resolutions.

[takeo]

Madeline



Now, let's try this again. Islamic Extremism did NOT start with the "invasion". It is a mindset that has existed long before.

Not in Iraq, or at least they hadn't the opportunity to spread, untill 2003 that is. The US-invasion triggered the whole calamity that's going in Iraq since 2003. On thos forum, in 2003, I warned against just that. People called me crasy, and said Iraqi would be throwing flowers to their "liberators".



Get real, next you say its the gun that kills, not the one who pulls the trigger. You have a lot to learn.

The US started to invade the country without any legal reasons, than they removed the government.
You mean that the war in Yugoslavia or the soviet-Union during WWII was caused by the different resistence-organisations, who shouldn't resist occupation, and not by Nazi-Germany?





I realize that you are enthusiastic, but you have to think things through, not see them the way you want them to.

I know what I'm saying, I've visited Iraq in 1999, and before 2003 I warned on this forum against civil war, extremism and Al-Quaida as a result of the invasion. Many other people did as well, millions of them all around the world. Bush can't claim he "didn't know".





I am not debating the fact of America going into Iraq, we have a different thread for that. But please, do not confuse the urge to kill with anything but what it is.

There's always a reason for slaughter and violence. Foreign intervention and occupation always, during the entire history of human kind, triggered a cycle of violence.

[Madeline]

Madeline




Not in Iraq, or at least they hadn't the opportunity to spread, untill 2003 that is. The US-invasion triggered the whole calamity that's going in Israel since 2003. On thos forum, in 2003, I warned against just that. People called me crasy, and said Iraqi would be throwing flowers to their "liberators".




The US started to invade the country without any legal reasons, than they removed the government.
You mean that the war in Yugoslavia or the soviet-Union during WWII was caused by the different resistence-organisations, who shouldn't resist occupation, and not by Nazi-Germany?






I know what I'm saying, I've visited Iraq in 1999, and before 2003 I warned on this forum against civil war, extremism and Al-Quaida as a result of the invasion. Many other people did as well, millions of them all around the world. Bush can't claim he "didn't know".






There's always a reason for slaughter and violence. Foreign intervention and occupation always, during the entire history of human kind, triggered a cycle of violence.

You are rally unable to comprehend. I feel sorry for you. I feel that I am wasting my time. Au revoir, mon ami.

[takeo]

Reffo


I am as patient as you are Takeo. You keep on repeating your polemics and I'll respond to you till you drop. And I'll repeat myself as many times as you will, OK? :cool:

I noticed. Well, as long as I have time I'll answer.




In 2000/2001 Barak offered the Palestinians 100% of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank and other lands to offset the remaining 3%. Yet I didn't see Hamas change it's charter, why is that Takeo? They might do the same huh?

Wel already debated the Barak-offer, it was not acceptable to the Palestinians. Why didn't Israel accept the 2002 Saudi peace proposal, endorsed by the entire Arab world? If both sides start to negociate, and find common grounds, that would be an improvement, instead of formulating "take it or leave it" proposals.




What I said above was that if ever the situation will deteriorate to the extent that Israel's existence will be in serious jeopardy, then good bye Middle East and now you have gone and twisted it every which way .... Oh well, typical Takeo :vomit:

No, I only use your dishonest rethorics and logics in my own advantage.


By the way, what will the Palestinians get away with? Israel's destruction? Only in your and (many of) their dreams ....

If Israel destroys the entire Palestinian population, than it'll mean the destruction of Israel. In that case will have no friends remaining and the whole muslim world will start to fight Israel. I think for any US-president it would become impossible to support a country which committed genocide against an entire people. And honestly, if Israel whipes out an entire population, than I think morally it should stop to exist. than the UN should take over, bring the Israeli leaders to justice and judge all those complicit.
And now of course you''ll be saying "you see you want the destruction of Israel, that's what i always said" without mentioning that I said "only on the condition that Israel killed the entire palestinian population first". That's how you try to win debates. On the other hand, if the Arab world would really wage a war of extermination against Israel, I would find myself on the side of Israel!



Given the fact that Israel was subject to genocidal hatred, violence and wars ever since (and Palestine's Jews even before) it was created,

You complain that I use the word "etnic cleansing" but you use the word "genocide" all the time. Tell me exactly when did this genocide happen? It's new to me. And tell me as well who favors it?(with links of course)




Now, the formula is simple: Land in exchange for peace! And how would Israel know that the peace treaty would have a chance to hold? By getting the Palestinian Arabs to formally show that their past pretexts for war no longer apply, namely:

Renounce their so called right of return demand

They will only do so if a solution is found for the refugees. The refugee-question should be a part of any peace-negociation. Abbas already indicated he wants to search for a compromise concerning those refugees.


Recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people (nation)


No, as a mainly Jewish state would be possible.



What is formally? In writing and I would advocate that before any Palestinian leader signs such a declaration, the whole peace deal/package that would be hammered out via negotiations (including the above 2 items) would need to be ratified via a referendum of all the Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. Because without it being endorsed by the majority of the people, any such agreement would not be worth the paper that it would be written on ...

Equally so on the Israeli side, and with the garantee that Israel won't change its mind later, even if another party gets elected which doesn't favor peace.

[Sharona]

Sharona



That's right, but when jews were in the majority or the strongest position themselves, they also committed crimes against other peoples, such as in 1948.

Are you speaking of the Levant here, Takeo? If so, could you be specific about 'crimes against other peoples'? I will then check it out with people who were genuinely 'on the ground' in Egypt.


I agree that Jews in Arab countries didn't cause any problems and contributed to devellopment. But at the same time the most problems started with the creation of the state of Israel. On one hand, it made the Arabs more hostile to Jews, on the other hand, zionist organisations wanted to actively recruit people to migrate to Israel, to establish a Jewish majority there. I think this is an established historical fact. I already cited wikipedia about Jews in Iraq. Iraq forbade Jews to migrate, zionist organisations did everything to smuggle them out of the country, and encourage them to go.


Are you saying that even though the Jews in Arab countries caused no problems and contributed to the development of their home lands, it is acceptable to persecute them because of events occuring elsewhere? I don't quite understand this lack of emotional and physical control nor the double-standards. If Gazan's are innocent victims, why aren't Levantine Jews and Christians given the same status? You have mentioned something similar in a later post about Christians. It appears acceptable to harm them following the Iraq situation? Why?!!!



OK, I understand, the situation of Jews in Egypt became difficult, because the government was making their life difficult. On the other hand some stayed untill 1967, when most of them went to Israel.

I haven't figures to hand but many also went to the UK, France, Italy and the USA.


But it wasn't the case in all Arab or muslim countries. For example only the poor Iranian Jews moved, since they hoped for better opportunities in Israel, the rich stayed. In Morocco most Jews went to Israel as a result of active zionist organisations, not as a result of heavy persecution (altough there have been incidents in Oujda and Djerada, not in other cities). Morocco still belonged to France and Spain. Many Jews stayed on after independance, and only moved slowly but steadily in the 50's and 60's when they heard about higher living standards in Israel, heavily encouraged by zionist organisations.

I disagree. I have a Moroccan brother-in-law and a Tunisian sister-in-law. They didn't go to Israel. If you are in France then you will notice it has a high Moroccan/Tunisian Jewish population.

In other countries like Iraq there had been anti-semitic measures taken by the government and there have been riots, but not to the extent that emigration was the only option.

In Iraq the Jews were required to give up their citizenship before leaving and their property was also seized.


According to some sources, zionist organisations even fabricated explosions themselves, to cause panic and persuade people to move to Israel (wikipedia, "Jews in Iraq"). The situation in Tunisia, Libia and Algeria (still a part of France) was still different, but clearly not as bad as in Egypt, which was the worst in the Arab world, because Egypt was directly involved in several wars with Israel. I many Arab and muslim countries there are still active Jewish communities, such as in Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Iran, etc.

I wouldn't agree that Wikipedia is the first resource for the intellectually-minded Takeo! Again, I will ask those with first-hand experience about Tunisia and Morocco. Syria and Iran were amongst the Arab nations that began imposing economic sanctions on their Jewish communities, which in turn strangled them. It is estimated that the Arab nations benefited from their Jewish nationals to the tune of $6 - 10 billion.


That's a decision for everyone to make for himself. It concerns his or her own life. Egyptian Jews mainly choose to flee, and I respect that decision, considering their situation. But if they choose to fight for it, I would understand that as well, they had the right to do so.


Well, if they did so, I wouldn't condamn it. They have the right to struggle for what belongs to them. But since Egyptian Jews were a relatively small community, I think other ways such as international pressure and sanctions, would be more effective. But Israel never cared for their rights, Israel was very happy that they moved to Israel, helping to create a jewish majority there.

As mentioned, many Levantine Jews did not emigrate to Israel. What makes you say that Israel didn't care for their rights? Is it a comment or a statement of fact?

I was not in their situation, so it's hard to tell, and a very personal decision.
Now, I would still look for the properties of my ancestors, as many European Jews who lost everything during WWII did as well.

Perhaps you can address another post I made? I asked why the Arab nations had little interest in Palestine and its majority when it was a barren, unloved backwater of the Ottoman empire? That is - before 1948. What makes it so attractive to Arab nations now, when prior to this date, none appeared to care about the plight of their brothers in Palestine?

[takeo]

Sharona



I wasn't even born in 1948, but my understanding of Palestine is that it was a barren, unkempt, unloved backwater of the crumbled Ottoman empire.

It wasn't barren, there were some big thriving cities such as Jaffa, and it was quite fertile, except some parts (which are in most cases still barren)



So, my question is, why didn't the surrounding Arab nations fight harder to extricate the numerous occupiers of the past (Greeks, Romans, Turks, Brits, etc) and also to turn this backwater of swamp and desert into a country fit for their brothers to live in?

They did, never saw "Laurence of Arabia"?
But at least Turks nor English colonised the area with their own people, all they did was collecting taxes and appointing some governers.


I realise this is anecdotal, but my neighbour was a young British soldier drafted into National Service and sent to Palestine. His memories are indeed of a barren, inhospitable and forgotten country, where the population were often to be found living hand-to-mouth and in squalid conditions.

Well, maybe he fought in the Negev, but climate doesn't change in 60 years time.




It seems to me that no Arab nation truly fought its heart out for Palestine and its rather down-trodden majority before it became Israel.

Palestine, just like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, or other nations, was just a part of giant empires. But it doesn't mean that there were no people living there.

[takeo]

Sharona



Are you speaking of the Levant here, Takeo? If so, could you be specific about 'crimes against other peoples'? I will then check it out with people who were genuinely 'on the ground' in Egypt.

I'm talking about Palestine and Israel.



Are you saying that even though the Jews in Arab countries caused no problems and contributed to the development of their home lands, it is acceptable to persecute them because of events occuring elsewhere?

It's not acceptable, but it happens unfortunately. Even in Israel there are some people who wants to take revenge against Israeli Arabs for what happens outside Israel, they see them as the fifth legion.






I don't quite understand this lack of emotional and physical control nor the double-standards. If Gazan's are innocent victims, why aren't Levantine Jews and Christians given the same status? You have mentioned something similar in a later post about Christians. It appears acceptable to harm them following the Iraq situation? Why?!!!

Of course they are innocent victims, did I say something else?
And it is not acceptable at all to harm Iraqi christians! But I said the US, which started this war which led to the persecution of christians, is at least co-responsible! Besides the US did little to protect these christians, eventough they had the means, they had to flee to Syria (another evil state according to the US, but a safe heaven for Iraqi christians!). The simple fact that even the smallest child understands is that christians would still be in Iraq if the US didn't invade Iraq!




I haven't figures to hand but many also went to the UK, France, Italy and the USA.

that's right



I disagree. I have a Moroccan brother-in-law and a Tunisian sister-in-law. They didn't go to Israel. If you are in France then you will notice it has a high Moroccan/Tunisian Jewish population.

absolutely, I mentioned Israel but actually many also went to France after independence. Besides many muslim Algerians etc. ALSO migrated to France.




I wouldn't agree that Wikipedia is the first resource for the intellectually-minded Takeo! Again, I will ask those with first-hand experience about Tunisia and Morocco. Syria and Iran were amongst the Arab nations that began imposing economic sanctions on their Jewish communities, which in turn strangled them. It is estimated that the Arab nations benefited from their Jewish nationals to the tune of $6 - 10 billion.

That's not what I read... any sources? Wikipedia is the only source available to me at the moment on the net. Do you have any other neutral (rules out "Jewish library") or academic source available?





As mentioned, many Levantine Jews did not emigrate to Israel. What makes you say that Israel didn't care for their rights? Is it a comment or a statement of fact?

A comment. What did Israel do to get back their properties?

[takeo]

I've got a kind of stupid question.....exactly what is wrong with the women of the middle east? Why are they so hot to allow their children be killed over politics/religion/jihadist nonsense, as such?

I am serious. I look into the eyes of my kid and I would never, ever, let him get in harms' way, let alone wish death, martyrdom, and all this crazy shit that goes on. Why don't these women have any sense of the milk of human kindness and what the hell has happened to any kind of love that a mother and hopefully, a father has that he would like to see his kids grow up, be happy, have a life, go to school, etc?

Persecuted people the world over wished for better for their children and I can't understand the perverted mind and world that ME women whose men/children are involved with this whole Jihadist thing are coming from.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Most parents don't want their children to die in suicide-missions, but when it happens (most hide it from their parents) they want to be proud, if not they feel their child died for nothing. In Israel I'm sure noone is happy when his kid leaves to the war as a soldier, but when he dies, he will be buried as a hero. Noone wants to have the feeling that his kid died in vein.
The desperation and hate in Palestine, after years of ethnic cleansing, occupation, and no solution in sight, is such that some children actually choose to give their own life for the "cause".

[takeo]

So Takeo,

You whitewash Muslim Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews; w/o any proof accusing us of committing genocide against the Arabs where they actually called out for one and tried to execute it on a number of occasions on us and now you defend the Nazis. How wonderful is it to be you.

I continue to address your pathetic posts, again like an adult, now please address the questions put to you in multiple posts. Clarify your support for minority self determination.

Do you or do you not believe that the following minorities should have the right to self determine:

Alsatians
Corsicans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica)
Brettons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_nationalism)
Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Basque_Country)
Chechnya in Russia, Bolochis and Kurds in Iran, Druze in Syria, Copts in Egypt.

And explain to us in clear terms why France has not signed on to an important human rights convention- the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/157.htm)?


There's one major difference. Alsatians, Corsicans, Chechnyans, etc. are French/Russian legal and equal citizens, Palestinians are occupied but are not Israeli citizens, they have no rights at all. If Israel is ready to recognise those Palestinians as citizens and threat them as they treated the Israeli Arabs, than I think there would be much less international condemnation of Israel.
Another difference is that Chechnya, for example, is a legal part of Russia, Westbank, Gaza or East-Jerusalem is no part of Israel, not recognised by other countries as a part of Israel.

Copts in Egypt are no ethnic group, but a religious group, the same goes for Druzes. And most Alsaciens, Brettons, etc. don't want independence. Some Corsicans do, but most don't. Chechnya has a very large degree of autonomy, and ethnic Russians live among Chechnyans in the same circumsytances, they are ruled by president Kadyrov.

[Y. Shulamith]

Most parents don't want their children to die in suicide-missions, but when it happens (most hide it from their parents) they want to be proud, if not they feel their child died for nothing. In Israel I'm sure noone is happy when his kid leaves to the war as a soldier, but when he dies, he will be buried as a hero. Noone wants to have the feeling that his kid died in vein.
The desperation and hate in Palestine, after years of ethnic cleansing, occupation, and no solution in sight, is such that some children actually choose to give their own life for the "cause".


That's ridiculous; what parent in his right mind lets little kids outside when there is a conflagration going on and allows them to toss rocks at fully armed soldiers? These are little kids who should be inside someplace with their parents, not outside messing with fully armed soliders.......your story is a "fairy tale" and not a good answer to why they send their children out into the streets, indeed, to die in vain......:stick:

[Y. Shulamith]

Well, if there is a right of return, shouldn't I theoretically be able to go back to Russia and demand the land and the inn that they had, or some equivalent, that my great-grandparents were run off by the Cossacks be given back to me?

Is that what I should expect from Russia? Is this reasonable? Is this something that all Jews should be asking for? Hell, Jews can't even get a painting back that the Nazi's took from their families, yet all the Palestinians have a "right" to everything?

What in hell is that all about?

[Madeline]

Well, if there is a right of return, shouldn't I theoretically be able to go back to Russia and demand the land and the inn that they had, or some equivalent, that my great-grandparents were run off by the Cossacks be given back to me?

Is that what I should expect from Russia? Is this reasonable? Is this something that all Jews should be asking for? Hell, Jews can't even get a painting back that the Nazi's took from their families, yet all the Palestinians have a "right" to everything?

What in hell is that all about?
I don't have much to add to that one:clap:

[Reffo]

Moi? Hide my intentions? :unsure: How am I doing that? I have been very open with you and how I feel about people with your kind of views

I'm also very open with you and how I feel about people with your kind of views... if I were in power people advocating etnic cleansing would be imprisoned, and they can share a jail with nazi's and Al-Quaida-members. Give each a knife and let the party begin...Once again, show me where I advocate/d ethnic cleansing?


Show me a single thing that I ever said that would lead one to believe that I advocate ethnic cleansing?

So many people on this forum propagate ethnic cleansing, bheeshma even propagated the slaughter of christians. Remaining quiet about it means consenting. But the only one you're criticising is ME, who advocates a two-state solution and peace! I too advocate a two state solution but I expect the Arabs to be willing to demonstrate that they have given up their previous aspirations to eradicate Israel. You on the other hand expect Israel to give up strategic assets (land) for empty promises only. That's why I argue with you only.

The fact that I don't argue with others in this forum (which in fact I do at times) does not mean that I agree with everyone and everything that some say. But one thing that I do agree with them is their support of/for Israel.

On the other hand, I argue with you because I feel that people with your views represent a major threat to the very existence of Israel which is the only state that the Jewish people have.


You are just another hater who is ready to spread blood libels against individuals and the Jews collectively

That's a lie. Not against Jews collectively. Only against certain jews and non-Jews who's views are disgusting and unacceptable to me.Jews like me? You claimed that I advocate ethnic cleansing but you don't seem to be able to substentiate your claim. That's not a blood libel?


Your compulsive repetition of blood libels against Israel and I quote you (as Medio puts it):

Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing, Ethnic cleansing..... genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide..... Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel, Blame Israel...... Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians, Collective Punishment against innocent Palestinians.....

Well, if people propose "transfer" of Palestinians how else can you label it as "ethnic cleansing"? However I'm constantly bloodlibelled as anti-semitic, nazi, genocide against all Jews, etc. only because I don't agree with your views. You are clearly measuring with two standards. But I'm used to that on this forum, most people are utterly biased.Most Israelis don't! But you asked me to tell you why I consider you to be a hater of Israel and I told you above why I do. Can you deny that you do nothing else on this forum but repeat the views that I attribute to you above, ad nauseum?


I am all for that if only they too will do their bit to demonstrate that they are actually friends and allies. Saying so and repeating it is not enough, deluding ourselves is not enough.

I posted the Arab peace-proposal on this thread. Israel refused.Once again you obfuscate, this interchange was not about Israel at all. It was about what Obama said about the Muslim world.

But OK, I'll respond to you anyway. Israel's problem with the 2002 Arab peace proposal is that it includes the "Right of Return" demand. And until they drop that demand, Israel cannot accept such a proposal. I've told you that before...


It is not enough for Obama to get the US and it's allies to do "positive things" (as you put it) the Arabs and the Muslim world too will have to start to do "positive things".

They will, but you can only make peace with two. If Israel truly wants to negociate, than Arabs will too.So tell me: What would someone like you expect Israel to do that it hasn't already done?


They should stop acting as victims and should start recognizing that many of them are victimizers.

they will do so if Israel too recognised the many crimes they committted against the Palestinians. Is Israel ready to do so? Maybe there should be a truth-commission like in South-Africa, where all crimes of both sides get investigated.See? That is why I call you an Israel hater! Because you are so ready to talk about "Israel's crimes" but you seem to be very very quiet about Palestinian Arab crimes.

You want a South african style Truth-Commission? Yes, I for one would be all for that as long as I could be sure that the Arabs too could be made to face their wrong doings and crimes. Or even better, not "made to" but would willingly do so! In fact, if such a process would come about in a genuine way, without turning it into a circus of Israel bashing only, that's when I would feel optimistic that peace may be coming. My fear though is that the likes of you would turn the whole process into a farce and would use it as a forum to smear Israel and Israelis with blood libels in a one sided way!


Quid pro quo might work but if it will be one sided appeasement, then Obama too will learn the lessons of history that other appeasers learnt before him! I actually am hoping that Obama is not/will not be an appeaser, as I said, I hope he will act with integrity and wisdom.

If he acts with wisdom and integrity he will pressure both Israel and the Arabs, not just the Arabs as happened under Clinton and Bush. Arabs must recognise Israel, Israel must withdraw and recognise the UN-resolutions.You are lying through your teeth again Takeo. Clinton pressured Ehud Barak big time! That's why he made concessions that previous Israeli leaders would have been afraid to contemplate.

I take it that you still haven't read the book that I recommended for you to read? The book that was written by Dennis Ross, Clinton's chief middle east negotiator: "The Missing Peace". Read all about it in that book and then come back and argue here...

[Reffo]

In 2000/2001 Barak offered the Palestinians 100% of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank and other lands to offset the remaining 3%. Yet I didn't see Hamas change it's charter, why is that Takeo? They might do the same huh?

Wel already debated the Barak-offer, it was not acceptable to the Palestinians. Why didn't Israel accept the 2002 Saudi peace proposal, endorsed by the entire Arab world? If both sides start to negociate, and find common grounds, that would be an improvement, instead of formulating "take it or leave it" proposals.Again, that's not what we were talking about here. We were talking about how Hamas considers Israel proper (too) as "Occupied land". You said that if Israel would show a willingness to give up the West Bank and Gaza then they [Hamas] too "might be willing" to give up their claim on Israel proper.

Well, Israel DID and Hamas still considers Israel proper as "Occupied" land. Go figure ..... :scratch:


What I said above was that if ever the situation will deteriorate to the extent that Israel's existence will be in serious jeopardy, then good bye Middle East and now you have gone and twisted it every which way .... Oh well, typical Takeo :vomit:

No, I only use your dishonest rethorics and logics in my own advantage.Show me! What is dishonest about what I said?


By the way, what will the Palestinians get away with? Israel's destruction? Only in your and (many of) their dreams ....

If Israel destroys the entire Palestinian population, than it'll mean the destruction of Israel. In that case will have no friends remaining and the whole muslim world will start to fight Israel. I think for any US-president it would become impossible to support a country which committed genocide against an entire people. And honestly, if Israel whipes out an entire population, than I think morally it should stop to exist. than the UN should take over, bring the Israeli leaders to justice and judge all those complicit.
And now of course you''ll be saying "you see you want the destruction of Israel, that's what i always said" without mentioning that I said "only on the condition that Israel killed the entire palestinian population first". That's how you try to win debates. On the other hand, if the Arab world would really wage a war of extermination against Israel, I would find myself on the side of Israel!If Israel wanted to destroy the entire Palestinian population, it could have done so many times over. You are full of it Takeo. All Israel ever wanted to do and still does is to be allowed to develop their country for the benefit of their citizens. But it seems that for 60 years, the Arabs were resistant to what they call a "foreign body" in the midst of the Arab world!


Given the fact that Israel was subject to genocidal hatred, violence and wars ever since (and Palestine's Jews even before) it was created,

You complain that I use the word "etnic cleansing" but you use the word "genocide" all the time. Tell me exactly when did this genocide happen? It's new to me. And tell me as well who favors it?(with links of course)In 1948, the Palestinian Arabs and their Arab allies attacked the newly formed Israel and declared that they will drive the Jews into the sea! Do you dispute that Takeo? Between 1948 and 1967, ALL the neighbouring Arab countries AND the Palestinian Arabs, openly boasted that they will drive the Jews into the sea .... do you dispute that Takeo? Snce their catastrophic defeat in 1967, many Arabs became more circumspect about uttering such threats publicly but Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and your Iranian protégées still make such threats!

Did they actually do it on a big scale? NO, because Israel didn't let them but there are hints in what they might do to Israelis and Jews if they could do so in a bigger scale. Just look at what they do to one another elsewhere in the Arab world! Do you think they wouldn't do worse to Jews if only they could?


Now, the formula is simple: Land in exchange for peace! And how would Israel know that the peace treaty would have a chance to hold? By getting the Palestinian Arabs to formally show that their past pretexts for war no longer apply, namely:

Renounce their so called right of return demand


They will only do so if a solution is found for the refugees. The refugee-question should be a part of any peace-negociation. Abbas already indicated he wants to search for a compromise concerning those refugees.So tell me: What is their actual offer (links please)? How many refugees do they expect Israel to let in? And even more importantly, show me where they said that they would be willing to formally relinquish their so called right of return as part of an agreed peace deal/package!


Recognize Israel as a state for the Jewish people (nation)

No, as a mainly Jewish state would be possible.Would be possible? Did they actually say that? Are they willing to put it to their people and formally sign on it? Because if they would then many Israelis would accept that. But I am not aware that Abbas actually agrees with what you claim..


What is formally? In writing and I would advocate that before any Palestinian leader signs such a declaration, the whole peace deal/package that would be hammered out via negotiations (including the above 2 items) would need to be ratified via a referendum of all the Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. Because without it being endorsed by the majority of the people, any such agreement would not be worth the paper that it would be written on ...

Equally so on the Israeli side, and with the garantee that Israel won't change its mind later, even if another party gets elected which doesn't favor peace.Sure, that's only fair.

[Yala]

I many Arab and muslim countries there are still active Jewish communities, such as in Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Iran, etc.


I guess in Syria 25 Jews remaining counts as an active Jewish community! How ridiculous. :lol::lol::lol:

In any case, I just wanted to pop in to this discussion to make a few things clear. Iran did not ethnically cleanse their Jewish population. Over time they have and do make things difficult for them but not to the extent that they feel major persecution, even at the time of the Revolution. I suppose you could compare the Jews' living situation to that of Jews living in Europe before the Nazi era.

The Islamic Republic of Iran went after rich people, the elite, anyone connected to the Shah, intellectuals, communists(who actually helped bring them to power), etc. There were Jews in several or more of those categories so naturally they were jailed and murdered, etc. The fact that they were Jewish made it easy for the regime to jail the richest ones, charge them with Zionism then kill them or steal their money or both. There were also Jews who converted to Islam to save their money or businesses.

FYI Bahai have it much worse than Jews in Iran.

Iraq was a totally different story. They did in fact ethnically cleanse their Jewish population. They persecuted them through every means imaginable including shooting Jewish pregnant women on the spot, jailing 9 year old Jewish boys and charging them with Zionism, etc, etc. They didn't do it for the money and basically there was no rhyme or reason. They just did it out of hate. They even had their own version of Kristellnacht. It was called the Farhoud, which can be easily researched on google.

[Reffo]

I suppose you could compare the Jews' living situation to that of Jews living in Europe before the Nazi era.Even if they haven't yet moved against Jews just for being Jews, if their situation is similar to "Europe before the Nazi era" does not bode well for them..

[codedvirus]

bheeshma even propagated the slaughter of christians.

Christian Missionaries who convert Hindus. That's what he said. And I agree with him.

[Reffo]

Of course they are innocent victims, did I say something else?
And it is not acceptable at all to harm Iraqi christians! But I said the US, which started this war which led to the persecution of christians, is at least co-responsible!If so, then are you prepared to say this too? ....

the Palestinian Arabs, who started this war against the Jews in 1947/48 which led to the refugee problem, are at least co-responsible?

[ItsMyJewty]

Madeline: You refuse to read what I wrote. Either that, or you don't comprehend.

Takeo doesn't like facing the truth. If he doesn't reply to your posts, take it as a compliment.

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: Westbank has never been a part of Israel.

:lol:

[KiwiWriter]

It wasn't barren, there were some big thriving cities such as Jaffa, and it was quite fertile, except some parts (which are in most cases still barren)



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Thursday, January 22, 2009



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Jews took no one's land


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 23, 2002
1:00 am Eastern



By Joseph Farah



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WorldNetDaily.com


As the most visible Arab-American critic of Yasser Arafat and the phony "Palestinian" agenda, I get a lot of hate mail.

I've even received more than my share of death threats.

Most of those who attack me – at least those who bother to get beyond the four-letter words and insults – say I just don't understand or have sympathy for these poor Arabs who were displaced, chased out of their homes and turned into refugees by the Israelis.

Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906. And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen. Arabs followed. I don't blame them. They had good reason to come. They came for jobs. They came for prosperity. They came for freedom. And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition. The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.

[takeo]

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Thursday, January 22, 2009



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Jews took no one's land


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 23, 2002
1:00 am Eastern



By Joseph Farah



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WorldNetDaily.com


As the most visible Arab-American critic of Yasser Arafat and the phony "Palestinian" agenda, I get a lot of hate mail.

I've even received more than my share of death threats.

Most of those who attack me – at least those who bother to get beyond the four-letter words and insults – say I just don't understand or have sympathy for these poor Arabs who were displaced, chased out of their homes and turned into refugees by the Israelis.

Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906. And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen. Arabs followed. I don't blame them. They had good reason to come. They came for jobs. They came for prosperity. They came for freedom. And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition. The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.


Joseph Farah... always the same name returning when it concerns this kind of BS... In French we call that the "Arabe de service"...



A lot of lies and propaganda which I already, by refering to facts and statistics, not some senseless blabla, demonstrated.

[takeo]

:lol:

OK, tell me which country recognises Westbank as part of Israel?
How much percent of the population has Israeli citizenship?

[takeo]

If so, then are you prepared to say this too? ....

the Palestinian Arabs, who started this war against the Jews in 1947/48 which led to the refugee problem, are at least co-responsible?

For starting the war, yes. But of course Israel too is responsible for the ethnic cleansing. And yes, the groups which carry out persecution against christians in Iraq are responsible AS WELL.

[KiwiWriter]

Joseph Farah... always the same name returning when it concerns this kind of BS... In French we call that the "Arabe de service"...



A lot of lies and propaganda which I already, by refering to facts and statistics, not some senseless blabla, demonstrated.

And you will probably say that about anything anyone posts that doesn't agree with you.

[takeo]

Christian Missionaries who convert Hindus. That's what he said. And I agree with him.

Well, at least you're honest. But I despise your views.
I think most participants on this forum agree with you, because I'm the only one criticising it.

When Arabs slaughter Jews or Indians, they know it, when Israeli or hindu's slaughter people because of their religion, they seem to ignore it...

[Reffo]

Of course they are innocent victims, did I say something else?
And it is not acceptable at all to harm Iraqi christians! But I said the US, which started this war which led to the persecution of christians, is at least co-responsible!

If so, then are you prepared to say this too? ....

the Palestinian Arabs, who started this war against the Jews in 1947/48 which led to the refugee problem, are at least co-responsible?

For starting the war, yes. But of course Israel too is responsible for the ethnic cleansing. And yes, the groups which carry out persecution against christians in Iraq are responsible AS WELL.So you are saying that the Palestinian Arabs are not co-responsible for the refugee problem?

[codedvirus]

Well, at least you're honest. But I despise your views.
I think most participants on this forum agree with you, because I'm the only one criticising it.

When Arabs slaughter Jews or Indians, they know it, when Israeli or hindu's slaughter people because of their religion, they seem to ignore it...

Jews And Hindus don't believe in Converting others if i am not wrong.
---------------------------------
New Delhi October 13
"While Christians and Hindus have co-existed peacefully in the state, there have been unconstitutional and illegal efforts by some Christian organisations such as 'New Life' to forcibly convert or to induce conversion to Christianity," he said, addressing National Integration Council meeting in New Delhi.

[takeo]

Well, if there is a right of return, shouldn't I theoretically be able to go back to Russia and demand the land and the inn that they had, or some equivalent, that my great-grandparents were run off by the Cossacks be given back to me?

Is that what I should expect from Russia? Is this reasonable? Is this something that all Jews should be asking for? Hell, Jews can't even get a painting back that the Nazi's took from their families, yet all the Palestinians have a "right" to everything?

What in hell is that all about?

I know that, if I would want to return to Russia, eventough I'm born in France, it would be possible to get Russian citizensship after a whole bureaucratic procudure, because my parents were born in the Soviet-Union.

[takeo]

Jews And Hindus don't believe in Converting others if i am not wrong.
---------------------------------
New Delhi October 13
"While Christians and Hindus have co-existed peacefully in the state, there have been unconstitutional and illegal efforts by some Christian organisations such as 'New Life' to forcibly convert or to induce conversion to Christianity," he said, addressing National Integration Council meeting in New Delhi.

I don't know. But is this reason to slaughter them?