The Battle for Gaza has begun!

[Reffo]

Ah, let's keep him as our pet..may be he will grow on us. Throw him a bone every once in a while... LOL :lol::lol::lol:

[Reffo]

Why are you so vague? What sources?

Oh come on, we discussed this before. I even quoted an american negociator on this very same thread. You mean the one who nobody has ever heard of? What’s his name? :lol: Was he even at the negotiations? And I can only take your word for it that he said what you claim because you posted no link…


Also, the Arab parties don't agree to the interpretation of Clinton-Barak (the ones who made the proposal).And the Arabs are more impartial than Clinton and Dennis Ross? :D


Anyway, you yourself said there should be negociation, not imposition. Imposition is not going to work. It didn't work, and it will not work in the future.Yes, I said there should be no imposition and that means no imposition by the Palestinian Arabs either. Which is what you are advocating.


Yes, in response to Palestinian violence. Any other country does the same when they get attacked.

No! Noone invaded Israel between 1948 and 1967. And there wasn't any serious Palestinian violence in the 70's and 80's in the occupied territories. Still, there wasn't anyone in Israel proposing to end occupation. On the contrary, the idea only became popular since the first intifadeh, when everyone in Israel saw an Eretz Israel would not work. So violence is NOT the reason for occupation and colonisation, on the contrary, the calmest periods were the busiest for the colonisation project.Arab violence against Jews never stopped since 1929.


Anyway, as occupation is an act of war, Palestinians have the right to resist, that is what they should do. Israel shouldn't get a moment of peace as long as there isn't a Palestinian state and occupation and colonisation endures. That's what I think about all colonisation.The problem is that, like you, most of the Arabs consider Israel itself as “occupied” land. That’s why there has not been any agreement, that’s why there has not been a two state solution and so if the Arabs will continue their violence, Israel will fight fire with fire.


And no, the occupation was not the act that STARTED the violence. The Arabs used violence against the Jews/Israel since 1948 and THERE WAS NO OCCUPATION in 1948. What was their excuse then?

that's right, but….Say no more, that says it all …


Not openly? What is the difference, pressure is pressure and it shows that Clinton and Dennis Ross were honest brokers.

Of course they weren't.They were NOT more impartial than your sources, the Arabs? :lol:


Honest brokers apply the same pressure to both partiesDefine “same” in this context. Pressure is pressure and Clinton and Dennis Ross pressured both Israelis and Palestinian Arabs.


and don't secretly meet with one party before presenting the offer to the other party. And honest brokers should know the value of negociations, instead of impositions.No? Then how do you explain that their method yielded greater concessions from Ehud Barak than they managed to get from Arafat?

[Reffo]

I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You said Hamas will never recognise Israel under any circumstancesI said no such thing! What I did say was that they haven’t recognized Israel to date, nor did they exhibit signs of willingness to do so.


The Arabs have an inbuilt automatic majority in the UN General assembly where it's allies: The Arabs, Muslim nations and the rest who don't want to antagonize that large bloc, routinely vote for resolutions that are equivalent to declaring that the earth is flat

nonsense, the general assembly consists of all nations on earth, most of them are not muslim...No, but a large number ARE and the Arabs have oil so many non Arab non Muslim countries are intimidated by them..


You are right, they are not SELF DESTRUCTIVE! They are happy to see the youth and women of their people (as long as they are not the Mullah's/Ayatollah's own children or relations) self destruct ...

nonsense, Iran is quite a civilised country, you should go there once. It has a stupid regime, but not a self-destructive regime (like the Taliban for example);I have nothing against the people of Iran, at least not against MOST of them who are normal human beings who just want to live their lives. I am talking about the mad Ayatollah’s who preach hate..


Did they end the genocides of Cambodia, Rwanda, the Balkans, Lebanon, Syria, Saddam's Iraq?

They ended the war in Cambodia. After the communists murdered millions of innocent Cambodians.


(let's not forget that the US has its part in it as well, …Only in your feverish fantasies! The communists were the ones who committed the Cambodian genocide, period!


In the Balcans it was a UN-brokered peaceplan which ended the war in Bosnia.But only after hundreds of thousands were murdered and maimed by both sides. Which the UN did not prevent even when genocide occurred under their own noses..


About Iraq, both the Soviet-Union, the US and France supported Saddam against Iran, so that's the reason why the UN didn't interfere.The bottom line is that the UN was useless. In fact, as I said: The UN serves only as a mouthpiece and the instrument of powerful countries like the big powers and the Arab/Muslim bloc. Your defense of the UN actually supports what I have been saying!


In 2003 the US succeeded in turning a relatively peaceful country into a bloody hell! I beg to differ! And Saddam’s hundreds of thousands of political prisoners and the Shiites and the Kurds and Kuwaitis and even Iranians would have differed with your description of Saddam’s Iraq as “a relatively peaceful country”.

[CanDo]

In 2003 the US succeeded in turning a relatively peaceful country into a bloody hell!




I beg to differ! And Saddam’s hundreds of thousands of political prisoners and the Shiites and the Kurds and Kuwaitis and even Iranians would have differed with your description of Saddam’s Iraq as “a relatively peaceful country”.

Reffo, takeo marches lock-step in obedience to his Muslim/Arab masters. His mind has probably been distorted by years of Islamic brainwashing and indoctrination.

That is why the Arab, takeo, takes the opinion that Saddam Hussein's brutality towards Iraq's Shiites, Kurds and against the Kuwaitis, was OK, because Muslim on Muslim torture and murder is good, and the US's efforts to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq was and is bad; and, also according to takeo, Israel's efforts to bring peace, brotherhood, prosperity and civilized behavior to the Palestinians is bad, while Islamic terrorism and murder against the Jews of Israel, and against their fellow Arabs/Muslims is good.

While you will never change takeo sick, distorted mind, from supporting the backward, racist, religiously intolerant, barbaric Muslim/Arab cultures; your points are factual, supportable and appreciated by those of us that do support freedom, democracy and peace.

There are too many hatemongers, like takeo, in this world. But, at least, you are doing your best to expose takeo's lies and propaganda.

Thanks for your efforts, Reffo! :clap:

[Sharona]

Few[/B. On the other hand, around [B]850000 Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Arab countries. Some of the communities destroyed, like the one in Aleppo, Syria were some of the oldest communities in the world and preceded the Arabs by hundreds if not thousands of years. They were stolen of everything. Almost no-one ever speaks for them.

Has anyone read 'Man in the White Sharkskin Suit' by Lucette Lagnado?

or

Out of Egypt, by Andre Aciman?

Both are first-hand experiences of families originating from Aleppo and being booted out of Egypt by Nasser. Lucette's book is really good - I read it in a day.

Another interesting book is 'Locked Doors' by Itamar Levin. My husband's family is mentioned in it. Even they didn't know they were until I discovered it a few months ago. It's mostly about the value of the assets seized by Nasser.

[Reffo]

This is how Dennis Ross described Arafat's negotiating style in his book "The Missing Peace":
Ehud Barak: Here is an offer ....
Arafat: not enough ...
Ehud Barak: Here is another offer ....
Arafat: not enough ...
Ehud Barak: Here is even a better offer ....
Arafat:not enough ...
Ehud Barak: I haven't got a better offer to make
Arafat: Well, the Palestinians want a better offer..

There was only one offer, a take it or leave it offer.Well Takeo, you just keep on asserting that to Dennis Ross, Clinton’s chief Middle East negotiator. He would disagree with you, read his book “The Missing Peace” …. I presume you still haven’t read it?


Violence IS the root cause of all the problems in the Middle East. In fact, the occupation itself came about as a RESULT of Arab violence!

that's nonsense.It is NOT nonsense! Arabs have been using violence as a tool against the Jews of Palestine/Israel since at least 1929, non stop!


untill the end of the 80's not a single major party in Israel wanted to even consider withdrawel. That’s another one of your lies. Right after the 1967 war Israel offered to withdraw (except from Jerusalem) in exchange for peace but the Arab League responded with the famous 3 NOs of Khartum. No negotiations, No recognition, No peace …


Foreign? How so? The Jews lived in the land that you call Palestine way before the arabs did. And they maintained a continuous presence there for over 3000 years.

yes, but most zionist colonists who came to Palestine were foreign and had no relatives in Palestine. It was an ideological project.They were immigrants as there were Arab immigrants too. Are you anti immigrants, Takeo?


Just as an aside, with your above sentence you imply that YOU don't accept the two state solution. I guess you want a Judenrein Middle East, huh Takeo?

what a bunch of nonsense. I never said that and you should apologise for that lie. (of course you won't)But didn’t you say that ONLY the Arabs had the right to create a state, not the Jews? And we both know what the Arabs said in 1948: They said that they would drive the Jews into the sea … That would have made the land that you call Palestine Judenrein, would it not Takeo?


I said, that zionism was not a good idea. I'm against all nationalism,Are you against Arab nationalism too Takeo?


wether it is zionism, fascism and nazism. And yes zionism is the rootcause of everything.Zionism is NOT fascism or Nazism. It is the desire of the Jewish people (nation) for self determination.


Before zionism muslims, Jews and chrsitians lived together relatively peacefully.No they didn’t! In fact your own hero, Karl Marx, reported in about 1855 (before Herzl ever wrote about his Zionist ideas) that the Jews of Jerusalem, who were the majority population of the city, were the most oppressed by Arabs/Muslims and the poorest people who were forced to live in squalid conditions.


You asked me for the original rootcause of the conflict.I didn’t ask you, I told you that the root cause has been and still is Arab violence!

[Reffo]

Ben Gurion and his Yishuv DID accept the two state solution. Why are you lying Takeo?

In theory yes, but in reality? So why did they take more than what was offered to them in the partition plan?The newly formed nation of Israel was a victim of Palestinian/Arab aggression. They defeated the aggression and they offered peace. The Arabs did not accept and they threatened to drive the Jews into the sea in a future war. Need I say more Takeo?


A problem to the Arabs and people like you?

Perhaps they [the Arabs] were so overconfident that they didn't want to compromise?
[
Possibly, and as I said, that was a mistake.It sure was and the Pal Arabs continue to make the same mistakes today. Hamas is still advocating the same thing and the Palestinian people elected Hamas only a few years ago.


But this mistake was absolutely no legitimation for massive ethnic cleansingWhatever …... keep on crapping on Takeo ….. there was NO massive ethnic cleansing, there was mass flight of civilians from the war that was started by the Arabs themselves. How come Israel has 1 million Arab citizens today? How come they were not ethnically cleansed?

And how come you are not whining about the 800,000 or so Jews that the Arabs ethnically cleansed?


That's your story! But reality is that most of them fled of their own volition because they were afraid of getting caught up in a war that their macho men started. Some stayed, that's why Israel has 1 million Arab citizens and a small number were ethnically cleansed.

Not according to most historians, including Benny Morris. according to most historians, most palestinians were forcefully ethnically cleansed. (altough not allowing war refugees to return home is also ethnic cleansing)Are you sure you want to use him as your source? The same Benny Morris who blames Arafat for the failure of the peace talks?

But in any case, even Benny Morris does NOT say what YOU claim he says.


But jews too were ethnically cleansed by Palestinian Arabs in 1929 in Hebron and in 1948 from East Jerusalem and Gush Etzion..

That's true, but only a few 1000Only? And that’s OK with you?


while at least 700000 palestinians have been ethnically cleansed by Israel.And at least the same number of Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries directly because of the incitement that was generated by the Palestinian conflict. Many of those Jewish refugees were peacefully integrated into Israeli society and were not used as tools and cannon fodder as the Arab refugees have been by the Arabs and Palestinian leaders. Shame on them!


You forgot to mention that the West Bank got occupied because Jordan attacked Israel in 1967. See? It was Arab violence that caused the occupation...

You forget to mention that Jordan attacked Israel because it was obliged to do so under an agreement with Egypt, which was being attacked and invaded by Israel. And why did Israel attack Syria? The fact IS that Jordan attacked Israel NOT the other way around. The rest is just Arab politics..


And, even disregarding all that, why does israel still occupies and colonises these areas after 40 years? Eventough Egypt and Jordan have long since made peace with Israel? What's the new excuse?Simple! Because despite negotiations, the parties have not agreed on a mutually acceptable peace deal. Why is that only Israel’s fault?

[bararallu]

Zionism is nationalism, and nationalism is self-determination based on ethnicity. Just like Greek or Russian nationalisms, indeed. I don't have to tell you how many Jews have been killed by Russian nationalists...

Or French nationalists. The French were the first to employ Jews as cannon fodder- by draft in modern Europe. But lets get to the meat of it- what states self determined on basis other than ethnic rights, do you support those? Furthermore, on what basis was the French republic founded. On what basis did Napoleon have the right to frenchify the Jews living at the time in France by making them swear a oath to the state? Have any of these institutions been retracted? Have you criticized any of these institutions in this forum?

[Reffo]

What are Israel's preconditions?

that there should be no violence before any negociations can take pleace.
OK, fine, fair enough, but in that case, palestinians can have preconditions too, such as freezing all settlement activities for example.You cannot equate “settlement activities”, whatever you mean by that, to violence because whatever Israel does with settlements can be reversed and undone once a mutually acceptable solution would be reached. On the other hand, the results of violence cannot be reversed, people cannot be unkilled or unmaimed even after a peace deal …


It is only your story that Likud does not want peace Takeo.

really? So please show me a link to any likud-leader or the likud-charter recognising the right of existence of a palestinian state and embracing the two-state solution?Here, from your own source Takeo:

However, it has also been the party which carried out the first peace agreements with Arab states. For instance, in 1979, Likud Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, signed the Camp David Accords with Egyptian President Anwar al-Sadat, which returned the Sinai Peninsula (occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967) to Egypt in return for peace between the two countries. Yitzhak Shamir also granted some legitimacy to the Palestinians by meeting them at the ill-fated Madrid Conference following the Persian Gulf War in 1991.


But the fact is that it was Syria and Fatah who stopped the negotiations.

Israel too stopped negociations in the past when Israeli civilians were being targetted, isn't that right?Did you say “too”, Takeo? Does that mean that you admit that Israel is not the only one who does not negotiate when there is violence?


Only a few people? Every year in the last 7 years? That's not so bad according to you huh Takeo? What if those few people were your mother, father, brothers, sisters and children? And what if you and your friends would be traumatized by random terror weapons, day in day out for 7 years?

You are getting emotional…..Me? Emotional? Why would I be emotional if my relatives, friends and countrymen/women get murdered in the name of Arab nationalism? Sorry for breathing Takeo…


.. and your brother, father has been killed by Israel..Only because Arabs insist that violence is a a legitimate tool in resolving this conflict. Nobody would be killed if no violence would be used by the Arabs.


War is war, and in war people get killed and harmed.So why are you whining so much about what Israel did in Gaza, in response to Palestinian Arab violence?


Blocade after years of firing Qassams at Israel. The blocade started a couple of years or so ago but Qassams were being fired on Israel before the blocade too..

Hamas frequently cited the end of the blockade as a condition for a cease-fire. Israel always refused. So if the blockade doesn't end, Hamas will continue to fire rockets.As much as you would like me to, Takeo, I don’t believe in pink Elephants and flying pigs :lol:. The fact is that Hamas lobbed it’s rockets at Israeli civilians even before the blockade and the fact is that they are on the record of saying that they want to destroy Israel. So, stopping the blockade would stop Hamas’s rockets, at best temporarily, if that …


Iran too has been under boycott, are you saying that they can start firing rockets on those who boycott them?

There is no embargo of Iran, noone is blocking Iranian international seaways or borders. If that would be the case, than yes they would have the right to defend themselves.Ahaaaaaaa Takeo, so you are suggesting that Israel should allow unsupervised shipping of goods to Gaza, Huh?

If that’s the case, how would Israel be able to stop the delivery of advanced weapons to Hamas by Iran?

[takeo]

Ah, let's keep him as our pet..may be he will grow on us. Throw him a bone every once in a while...

What does the Holy book say about pets?

[takeo]

codedvirus


Few¨Palestinians¨ were forcibly removed, and that was due to militarty cosiderations (Tel-Aviv Jerusalem corridor) most of them fled voluntarily convinced to come back once the invading Arab armies would have killed all the Jews.Israel went out of its way to ask the Arabs NOT to flee in cities like Haifa.

That is not what Benny Morris found out. Did you actually read my post where I quoted him?




On the other hand, around 850000 Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Arab countries. Some of the communities destroyed, like the one in Aleppo, Syria were some of the oldest communities in the world and preceded the Arabs by hundreds if not thousands of years. They were stolen of everything. Almost no-one ever speaks for them.


That's a different matter. The Palestinians shouldn't pay for that.

[takeo]

takeo can rant and rave as much as he likes. With any luck, there'll be a Lieberman-Netanyahu coalition government, which will provide Israel with STRONG, RESOLUTE leadership.

This post from takeo shows him for what he truly is - a lier, a coward, and an anti-Semite who's consumed with hate.

He's no doubt hoping that Hamas won't be attacked again and that Iran develops nuclear weapons - weapons that can reach France as well as many other European countries. Takeo - the enemy within.

Yes go on with your lies and continue to believe whatever you want. You people are without reason or hope.
I hope that Netanyahu and Lieberman will form a government, shut down all negociations and that Palestinians will keep quiet for a while and keep asking for peace negociations. Than the whole world will see who are the bad guys and who are the good guys, just like in South Africa in the '80's. And than public opinion in the US will change too (it's already changing), and Israel will loose its last ally. Irrational extremists in power are ALWAYS bad for a country, just look at the US during the last 8 years.

[bararallu]

codedvirus
That is not what Benny Morris found out. Did you actually read my post where I quoted him?

You quoted him, as usually, incompletely. You've been corrected on this many times already. His work up to this point confirms the general consensus that very few Palestinians were forcefully removed, unlike all the Jews that were ethnically cleansed by Arabs in the ME.

[takeo]

Reffo


You mean the one who nobody has ever heard of? What’s his name? :lol: Was he even at the negotiations? And I can only take your word for it that he said what you claim because you posted no link…

I quoted from newsweek. I gave you the exact page where to find it.
Of course there are many more such examples, each time I read mainstream American media I'm surprised to see that Israel is heavily criticised. It's clear that something changed. Also, if Netanyahu decides to end peacetalks I'm sure he will find Obama on his way.



And the Arabs are more impartial than Clinton and Dennis Ross? :D

They are one side of the truth, Dennis Ross, Barak and Clinton the other side.
They too were present and so they know what they're talking about.




Yes, I said there should be no imposition and that means no imposition by the Palestinian Arabs either. Which is what you are advocating.

No, you are lying again. What I'm advocating is negociation, not imposition, by neither side.


Arab violence against Jews never stopped since 1929.

Israeli violence against Palestinians and Arabs never stopped since 1948.





The problem is that, like you, most of the Arabs consider Israel itself as “occupied” land.

A double lie. I said perhaps a million times on this forum that I want a two-state solution, but you continue lying. Is it a desease? Also, Abbas and Arafat have repeatedly recognised Israel, so did some Arab states and many others are willing to do so if the occupation ends. What should they do, sing the Israeli national anthem standing on their head?



That’s why there has not been any agreement, that’s why there has not been a two state solution and so if the Arabs will continue their violence, Israel will fight fire with fire.

another lie. There's still no two-state solution because a lot of reasons, that have all been debated here.
But you of course only blame the Arabs, not Israel, as you are utterly biased.






Say no more, that says it all …

No it doesn't. You are very biased, you only want to blame the Arabs for everything, and forget about Israeli wrongdoings.



They were NOT more impartial than your sources, the Arabs? :lol:

of course not, they were very much involved as well, and they actually talked trough the proposal with Israel before presenting it to the Arab side.




Define “same” in this context. Pressure is pressure and Clinton and Dennis Ross pressured both Israelis and Palestinian Arabs.

Not to the same extent, at all.



No? Then how do you explain that their method yielded greater concessions from Ehud Barak than they managed to get from Arafat?

says who?

[takeo]

Reffo



No, but a large number ARE and the Arabs have oil so many non Arab non Muslim countries are intimidated by them..

An even larger number of nations are US-allies or are intimidated by the US. (or bribed, I will never forget how Bush went to for example Angola and promised them loads of $ if they voted for a resolution that would allow the war in Iraq)




I have nothing against the people of Iran, at least not against MOST of them who are normal human beings who just want to live their lives. I am talking about the mad Ayatollah’s who preach hate..


Equally so I have nothing against the majority of Israeli, when I'm talking about Israeli policy I'm talking about their leaders and politicians.
Most people on this forum don't do anything else than preaching hatred. Against me (because I'm in favor of a two-state solution), against Arabs, etc.




After the communists murdered millions of innocent Cambodians.

You seem to forget that the US too murdered 100000's of Cambodians during the war in Vietnam, AND that they continued to support the Khmer Rouge untill 1989, whereas most communists backed the ones who ended their reign of terror.




Only in your feverish fantasies! The communists were the ones who committed the Cambodian genocide, period!

Approximately 700000 Cambodian civilians died as a result of the war, that was BEFORE the Khmer Rouge came to power, mostly as a result of American bombings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
When the Khmer Rouge came to power they distantiated themselves from the Soviet-Union and communist Vietnam. In 1978 their regime was reversed by communist Vietnam, a move which was sharply condamned by the US, which continued to support the Khmer Rouge and recognise them as only legitimate Cambodian government untill 1989, while the Soviet-Union and Vietnam recognised the pro-Soviet government of Cambodia, which is still ruling Cambodia.




But only after hundreds of thousands were murdered and maimed by both sides. Which the UN did not prevent even when genocide occurred under their own noses..

Without the UN many if not most of these would still be going on. you criticise the UN but you don't offer any alternative.


The bottom line is that the UN was useless. In fact, as I said: The UN serves only as a mouthpiece and the instrument of powerful countries like the big powers and the Arab/Muslim bloc.


what a load of s it. The only reason why you don't like the UN is because they condamned Israel for occupation and colonisation, as they did in the case of the Indonesian occupation of Eastern Timor as well. (does it mean the UN is an anti-indonesian organisation?) Condemnation of Israel was also supported by countries like India, Brazil, and others who have no relations with "the Arabs". Even the US supported many resolutions condemning Israel.
Actually I'm starting to get it: "everyone criticizing Israel is bad, everyone supporting Israel is good. Everything is the fault of the Arabs, nothing is Israel's fault."




Your defense of the UN actually supports what I have been saying!

Why?




I beg to differ! And Saddam’s hundreds of thousands of political prisoners and the Shiites and the Kurds and Kuwaitis and even Iranians would have differed with your description of Saddam’s Iraq as “a relatively peaceful country”.

It was a dictatorship, but a relatively peaceful one in 2003. And Kurds were not controlled by Saddam. That's why Bush had to invent lies to invade Iraq, he didn't have any good reason. Iran hated the Saddam regime and supported the current people in power, but still it didn't support the US-invasion either.


It would be informative for you to go trough the archives of this forum, and see how people called me a liar (like you did) and worse because I said there were probably no WMD's in Iraq and this war was wrong and would end in bloodshet.
Today Iraq is a hell, AND it's ruled by pro-Iranian islamists, which wasn't the case in 2003!
Is this your plan for the entire Middle East?

[takeo]

Reffo




That’s another one of your lies. Right after the 1967 war Israel offered to withdraw (except from Jerusalem) in exchange for peace but the Arab League responded with the famous 3 NOs of Khartum. No negotiations, No recognition, No peace …

Except for Jerusalem? What would have been the reaction you think if Saddam would have offered to return Kouweit, but without Kouweit city? Do you honestly think this is a sincere proposal?
Also, if Israeli are so keen to end occupation, why did they start the colonisation? And why is it mentioned in Likud charter that Israel should stretch from the sea to the Jordan river? Why did Labor only change its position of Eretz Israel after the first intifada in the early 90's?




They were immigrants as there were Arab immigrants too. Are you anti immigrants, Takeo?

I'm not against immigrants, but I don't want them to create their own state here, would you accept that?



But didn’t you say that ONLY the Arabs had the right to create a state, not the Jews?

I didn't say that.


And we both know what the Arabs said in 1948: They said that they would drive the Jews into the sea … That would have made the land that you call Palestine Judenrein, would it not Takeo?

I don't know about Judenrein, that's your interpretation. But yes, again, that was a mistake, which you keep on mentioning. But you keep very quiet on the israeli ethnic cleansing which followed, and on the occupation and colonisation since 1967.
Today, many politicians in Israel want to make Israel Arabrein. (but of course, according to you, that's the fault of the Arabs as well, right?)




Are you against Arab nationalism too Takeo?

yes. Are you against Jewish nationalism? Are you against Arab nationalism? Are you against Russian nationalism?




Zionism is NOT fascism or Nazism. It is the desire of the Jewish people (nation) for self determination.

But it has the same roots and the same principle as all nationalism. "One people, one country, one blood."




No they didn’t! In fact your own hero, Karl Marx, reported in about 1855 (before Herzl ever wrote about his Zionist ideas) that the Jews of Jerusalem, who were the majority population of the city, were the most oppressed by Arabs/Muslims and the poorest people who were forced to live in squalid conditions.

Yet they lived there, and were even the majority in a city which is holy to all major semitic religions. they were not evicted, ethnically cleansed and not chased away.




I didn’t ask you, I told you that the root cause has been and still is Arab violence!

Which is a lie. Arab violence is not a cause but a reaction, as is Jewish violence.

[takeo]

Reffo


The newly formed nation of Israel was a victim of Palestinian/Arab aggression. They defeated the aggression and they offered peace. The Arabs did not accept and they threatened to drive the Jews into the sea in a future war. Need I say more Takeo?

How many times are you going to repeat that? I already said that was a mistake, but there have been many Israeli mistakes as well.
I'll repeat as well that Fatah, palestinian president, Egypt, Jordan, and others recognised Israel, and many more are willing to do so if Israel ends occupation and colonisation. But many Israeli politicians don't want a two-state solution and don't want to end occupation and colonisation.


It sure was and the Pal Arabs continue to make the same mistakes today. Hamas is still advocating the same thing and the Palestinian people elected Hamas only a few years ago.

Israeli people elected Netanyahu and Lieberman, who, on the contrary to Hamas leaders, don't want a two-state solution even if the other side made the first step.



Whatever …... keep on crapping on Takeo ….. there was NO massive ethnic cleansing, there was mass flight of civilians from the war that was started by the Arabs themselves.

Did you read my post where I quoted Benny Morris? Do you say that Benny Morris is a liar?



How come Israel has 1 million Arab citizens today? How come they were not ethnically cleansed?

Israel wanted a Jewish majority, that was the goal.




And how come you are not whining about the 800,000 or so Jews that the Arabs ethnically cleansed?

Because that's another issue, here we're discussing the palestinian-Israeli conflict. Why are you not whining about the 2 million or so Iraqi refugees in Syria and Jordan?



Are you sure you want to use him as your source? The same Benny Morris who blames Arafat for the failure of the peace talks?

Yes, as he's the only one who extensively studied this issue. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says.





But in any case, even Benny Morris does NOT say what YOU claim he says.

Please look at my post where I quoted Benny Morris. I'm very tired of reposting links again and again.



And at least the same number of Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries directly because of the incitement that was generated by the Palestinian conflict. Many of those Jewish refugees were peacefully integrated into Israeli society and were not used as tools and cannon fodder as the Arab refugees have been by the Arabs and Palestinian leaders. Shame on them!

Israel wanted to integrate them in their society, as they badly wanted a Jewish majority. Arab countries didn't want to integrate them in their societies, and they didn't have to. Their home is in Israel, that's where they come from, and they have a UN-resolution to support this claim. It will only be possible to find a final solution for this problem was a major peace-deal is signed, which also finally settles the refugee-question.





The fact IS that Jordan attacked Israel NOT the other way around. The rest is just Arab politics..

The fact is that Israel attacked Egypt and Syria not the other way around.



Simple! Because despite negotiations, the parties have not agreed on a mutually acceptable peace deal. Why is that only Israel’s fault?

There haven't been real negociations between 1993 and 2008.
And while palestinians have to keep their part of the deal, recognise israel and assuring its security, (as part of a major deal) Israel too has obligations. The occupation and colonisation must end, and there should be a solution for the refugees.

[bararallu]

France is not based on ethnicity but on citizenship, just like the US. Everyone can be a French citizen if they live in France, pay taxes and speak French.

On what basis did france self determine?



A clear difference with nazi-Germany or Israel which is clearly based on an ethnic identity (which automatically means non-Jews are second-class citizens in Israel).


Except we actually have minorities in high gov spots, given employment and we were *not* allied (as was the Vichy regime) with the Third Reich. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany will not make you long for this forum, Judenrat.

[takeo]

Reffo


You cannot equate “settlement activities”, whatever you mean by that, to violence because whatever Israel does with settlements can be reversed and undone once a mutually acceptable solution would be reached. On the other hand, the results of violence cannot be reversed, people cannot be unkilled or unmaimed even after a peace deal …


Both are acts of war. Didn't you say that Egypt's blockade was an act of war? Yet it didn't kill anyone, but Israel's invasion of Egypt surely did. Occupation and colonisation are acts of war, eventough they don't kill anyone. In a war, people get killed. If you don't want anyone killed, you should make peace, and stop committing acts of war.




Did you say “too”, Takeo? Does that mean that you admit that Israel is not the only one who does not negotiate when there is violence?

Yes, that's why Syria and Abbas stopped negociations. But these are preconditions. So if preconditions to peace-talks are OK, Palestinians have their's too, such as not expanding settlements.






Me? Emotional? Why would I be emotional if my relatives, friends and countrymen/women get murdered in the name of Arab nationalism? Sorry for breathing Takeo…

Well, Arabs get emotional too when their relatives get killed in the name of Jewish nationalism. And there are many more of them killed than Israeli.




Only because Arabs insist that violence is a a legitimate tool in resolving this conflict. Nobody would be killed if no violence would be used by the Arabs.

So Israel can continue its acts of war but Arabs don't have the right to resist, is that what you are saying?




So why are you whining so much about what Israel did in Gaza, in response to Palestinian Arab violence?

for the same reason you are whining about the Israeli casualties.


As much as you would like me to, Takeo, I don’t believe in pink Elephants and flying pigs :lol:. The fact is that Hamas lobbed it’s rockets at Israeli civilians even before the blockade and the fact is that they are on the record of saying that they want to destroy Israel. So, stopping the blockade would stop Hamas’s rockets, at best temporarily, if that …

Well, better than nothing, worth a try, and it will surely benefit Gazans as well. Israel has nothing to loose by doing so.



Ahaaaaaaa Takeo, so you are suggesting that Israel should allow unsupervised shipping of goods to Gaza, Huh?

They can even inspect them, but they can't block them.





If that’s the case, how would Israel be able to stop the delivery of advanced weapons to Hamas by Iran?

I think there should be a general weapons embargo against the entire region, untill there is a peace-deal, as happened during the Yugoslavian civil war as well.

[takeo]

On what basis did france self determine?



Except we actually have minorities in high gov spots, given employment and we were *not* allied (as was the Vichy regime) with the Third Reich. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany will not make you long for this forum, Judenrat.

In France there is no official ethnicity since the French revolution, there is the state, and there are citizens, I think it's the same in the US.
I didn't say Israel is allied to the thirth Reich. I said all nationalist ideologies have a lot of similarities.
There are also minorities given high gov. spots in the Arab world, more so than in Israel.

[bararallu]

In France there is no official ethnicity since the French revolution, there is the state, and there are citizens, I think it's the same in the US.
I didn't say Israel is allied to the thirth Reich. I said all nationalist ideologies have a lot of similarities.
There are also minorities given high gov. spots in the Arab world, more so than in Israel.

First of all France is an ethnic state, otherwise parties like Le Pens would not be possible. The united States, Canada, Australia and a few other newer states are multinational from their inception. France conquering and predominating over Alcasians, Corsicans, Basque and Brettons, and evacuating it's quislings after a failed campaign in North Africa does not by definition make it a multinational state.

Neither is Russia a multinational state in the same conception as the US or Canada. It treats it's minorities like crap and it's neighbors worse.

And you most certainly compared Nazi Germany to Israel.

[Reffo]

They have tried everything else but nothing worked.

They didn't try. Didn't even try lifting the embargo.Actually Israel always allowed the flow of basic necessities into Gaza but it insists on supervising everything that enters and leaves Gaza. After all, what do you expect? Gaza is enemy territory from which constant violence has been unleashed on 1 million Southern Israeli civilians..


Yes, I have already seen polls that indicate loss of Hamas popularity among Gazans.

It would be goodIt IS good…


but I don't think so. Who cares what you think?


And when are the Israeli ennemies ofpeace going to loose popularity?
As I said I hope for a peaceminded palestinian leadership and an anti-peace leadership in Israel, at least for a year or so. In that case, international support for Palestinians will grow to the same extent as isolation of and pressure on Israel will.That sentence reveals everything about you and how you wish harm to Israel.

Personally, my wish is for both people to be peace minded and make real peace.


Ooooooooooh Aaaaaaaaah, I am so impressed... and what does that prove? This? .......

It proves that even people who are absolutely not leftist, communist or pro-Arab regimes, rather on the contrary, criticise Israel. Aaaaaaaaah, I am so impressed ….. and …. Some people who are absolutely not leftist, who ARE leftist and NOT anti-Arab, criticise Palestinian Arabs too … go figure …

[Reffo]

The 1999 Likud charter emphasized the right of settlement in "Judea (and) Samaria" (more commonly known as the "West Bank") and Gaza,"..OK but the Likud has not been exactly the most popular party in Israel, see from your own link:


Founded in 1973 as an alliance of several right-wing and liberal parties, Likud's victory in the 1977 elections was a major turning point in the country's political history, marking the first time the left had lost power. However, after ruling the country for most of the 1980s, the party has won only one Knesset election since 1992,

Binyamin Netanyahu, the new rightist leader of Likud, and Silvan Shalom, the party's #2 ranking member, both supported (against the Likud charter) the disengagement plan, however Netanyahu resigned his ministerial post before the plan was executed. Most current Likud members support the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and oppose Arab statehood and the disengagement from Gaza.Note the items in bold about Netanyahu and the word “most” in other words NOT ALL!




So then, South Ossetia has no right to declare itself independent of georgia? They are a minority, yet you claimed that they have the right to have self determination? So why don't you feel the same way about the Jewish people's (nation's) right to have self determination?

I think it would have been better if they stayed in a union with Georgia. But they didn’t did they?

However they have very powerful friends, like the Kosovars, and like the Israeli, that's why they are independent now. And don’t forget Pakistan too …. Hey Takeo, I have a great idea: Let us dismantle the independence of South Ossetia, the Kossovars and Pakistan …. Then after you manage to convince the world to do that, come back and talk about Israel OK?

Israel is another matter.Yes, for people like you, anything to do with the Jews is another matter …

Now there's an israeli people, but in the 19th century there wasn't one. And there wasn’t a Pakistan either but Jews too lived in what was known as Palestine just like Muslims lived in India.

Israel was solely a theoretical ideological concept.As was Arab Palestine and Muslim Pakistan..

[Reffo]

Anyway, I think the Jews, if they wished so, should have the right to have self-determination, the problem was that they didn't have a state where they were the majority, unlike the Ossetians. Zionists finally choose PalestineThey [the Jews] did not have to be in the majority, like Muslims didn’t have to be a majority in order to partition India into two countries: India and Pakistan. In the same way, the Jews had the right to establish their OWN STATE side by side with the Arab state/s.

And the Muslims: They insisted that the Muslims of India (who represented only 12% of India's population) had the right to have self determination and that's why India was partitioned in 1948 and Pakistan was created. Are you suggesting that Pakistan had no right to come into existence? Should Pakistan be dismantled Takeo?

Actually the breakup of India was one of the biggest stupidities in human history. Of course nowadays there is a pakistani people and state, history can't be rewinded, but it was a giant mistake.OK then Takeo …. You tell’em that … go tell’em boy ….. maybe the Muslims will be good boys and will dismantle Pakistan for you ….. Tell me Takeo: Are you brain dead?


Palestine was not an Arab homeland for hundreds of years either.

Says who? The current palestinians live there at least since the Arab invasion but probably much longer. Like the Syrians, Egyptians and others, they adopted Arab language, and some (not all) adopted Islam, but they retained their own separate culture.Says every history book. The land that you call Palestine was neither a sovereign Jewish nor a sovereign Arab state for hundreds of years. Go look it up Takeo!


But BOTH Jews and Arabs lived there continuously (Jews for over 3000 years and Arabs for over 1000 years). Both lived under the rules of first, the Ottoman and then the British empires.

That's true, but Jews were always a minority since at least 1900 years.That’s irrelevant. But in any case, some parts of the then Palestine had a Jewish majority, Jerusalem and Tel Aviv for example …


But your analogy does not apply because France has been a sovereign French nation for at least 1000 years. So, if any minority would try to secede from France, that would amount to rebellion and the French authorities would have every right to put the rebellion down.

What about the right of every people to have minority rights?They can have it … but that’s not what we were talking about, we were talking about your false analogy.

Palestine on the other hand was owned by Britain till 1948. And after they decided to leave, the only fair and just solution was to partition the land amongst the two major inhabitants (Jews and Arabs) and to allow each of them to have self determination. The Jews agreed to that but the Arabs didn't, because they thoght they could defeat the Jews and have it all, but they were wrong

Nowadays the situation is reversed, Palestinians have nothing and Jews have it all, and many if not most Jews don't want to share. You are lying again, most Jews are NOT opposed to the two state solution but they are opposed to Hamas and it’s charter which predicates Israel’s destruction.


Also, most Jews (not all) were clearly recent immigrants, while Palestinians lived there since many centuries. That's the reason why Palestinians initially didn't support the two-state solution. I ask you again, are you anti migrant?

But in any case, most Israelis of today were born in Israel and have lived there for generations.

[Reffo]

You are lying again Takeo Zionism means simply self determination for the Jewish people. Which is no different than self determination for the Russian or the Greek people. They all insist on their right to have their own country and rule themselves! And to prove you wrong, some Zionists are ultra left wing (for example: Hashomer Hatzair and many of the Kibutz movement) others are ultra right wing and most are in between. The only thing that is common to all of them is that they all want to have an independent Jewish state and that's what makes ALL OF THEM ZIONISTS.

Why are you claiming that only the Jews don't have the right for self determination, Takeo? Could it be because you are biased against the Jewish people?

Zionism is nationalism, and nationalism is self-determination based on ethnicity. So Palestinian nationalism is nationalism based on ethnicity too?

In any case, Israel happens to be multi ethnic, 20% of it’s citizens are Arab.


Just like Greek or Russian nationalisms, indeed. I don't have to tell you how many Jews have been killed by Russian nationalists... Personally I'm not in favor of any nationalism, I believe in multi-ethnic states. I think this idea that every nation should be based on blood and ethnicity has caused a lot of bloodshet. And the Jews were one of the first and most important victims. You don’t say Takeo …… OK then, let’s dismantle Greece and Russia …. Greece could amalgamate with Turkey (After all there are more Turks than Greeks) and Russia could amalgamate with China, their big neighbour …. Do you think that’s a good idea Takeo? ….. I don’t!

[Madeline]

Wrong subject

[codedvirus]

codedvirus
That is not what Benny Morris found out. Did you actually read my post where I quoted him?

Have you read any of his books.


That's a different matter. The Palestinians shouldn't pay for that.

How can Palestinians population increase like 50X in less than a century ?
Does it make sense to you.

[Reffo]

You mean the one who nobody has ever heard of? What’s his name? Was he even at the negotiations? And I can only take your word for it that he said what you claim because you posted no link…

I quoted from newsweek. I gave you the exact page where to find it.Actually you didn’t give me any page numbers but I looked up the issue of Newsweek that you mentioned, and guess what I found? I found this:


Throughout the years of negotiations, Palestinians have demanded “Right of Return” .Go look it up Takeo, that sentence is in the bottom of page 31 of your own Newsweek reference article …. And you have been denying this for such a long time huh Takeo? Once again your lie has been exposed by your own reference. Life Sucks, huh Takeo?


Of course there are many more such examples, each time I read mainstream American media I'm surprised to see that Israel is heavily criticised. It's clear that something changed.And that’s the stuff that your wet dreams are made of huh Takeo? Oh well, to each his own …


And the Arabs are more impartial than Clinton and Dennis Ross?

They are one side of the truth, Dennis Ross, Barak and Clinton the other side.
They too were present and so they know what they're talking about.You got that wrong boyo ….. one side is Israel, the other side is the Arabs and somewhere in between are the Americans Clinton and Dennis Ross. Go educate yourself, read the book “The Missing Peace” Who knows, you might even learn something …


Yes, I said there should be no imposition and that means no imposition by the Palestinian Arabs either. Which is what you are advocating.

No, you are lying again. What I'm advocating is negociation, not imposition, by neither side.They have been negotiating for how long now? And who do you blame for the no progress? It seems to me that you blame Israel but correct me if I am wrong …


Arab violence against Jews never stopped since 1929.

Israeli violence against Palestinians and Arabs never stopped since 1948.Behold ….. the famous Takeo circular argument, it goes like this:

Takeo:Poor Palestinian Arabs, they are suffering, they have no state…
Reffo: They should stop their violence and negotiate a peace deal
Takeo: They will NOT stop the violence until the occupation ends…
Reffo: OK, then Israel will reciprocate the violence
Takeo: Repeats statement 1 above



The problem is that, like you, most of the Arabs consider Israel itself as “occupied” land.

A double lie. I said perhaps a million times on this forum that I want a two-state solution, but you continue lying. Is it a desease? Also, Abbas and Arafat have repeatedly recognised Israel, so did some Arab states and many others are willing to do so if the occupation ends. What should they do, sing the Israeli national anthem standing on their head?I was talking about Hamas and Hamas was elected by the majority of the Palestinian people … but you do side with Hamas when it comes to it's dispute with Israel so therefore you too say the same thing


That’s why there has not been any agreement, that’s why there has not been a two state solution and so if the Arabs will continue their violence, Israel will fight fire with fire.

another lie. There's still no two-state solution because a lot of reasons, that have all been debated here.
But you of course only blame the Arabs, not Israel, as you are utterly biased.I blame Hamas and their ilk …. Who do you blame Takeo?


They [Clinton and dennis ross] were NOT more impartial than your sources, the Arabs?

of course not, they were very much involved as well, and they actually talked trough the proposal with Israel before presenting it to the Arab side.….Talked it over in order to pressure the Israelis to make greater and greater concessions ….. What incredible anti Arab bias :rolleyes:

[takeo]

Reffo


Actually Israel always allowed the flow of basic necessities into Gaza but it insists on supervising everything that enters and leaves Gaza. After all, what do you expect? Gaza is enemy territory from which constant violence has been unleashed on 1 million Southern Israeli civilians..

Israel can supervise everything, but it should end the embargo against all goods except weapons. If not it's a collective punishment against the entire population and an act of war.



That sentence reveals everything about you and how you wish harm to Israel.

In the end it will not harm Israel. International pressure and isolation can force the israeli politicians and palestinians alike to the negociating table, much like it happened in the early 90's.



Personally, my wish is for both people to be peace minded and make real peace.

I doubt so. In that case you would criticise many israeli mistakes as well, you would criticise the israeli right, as well as the colonisation proces.




Aaaaaaaaah, I am so impressed ….. and …. Some people who are absolutely not leftist, who ARE leftist and NOT anti-Arab, criticise Palestinian Arabs too … go figure …

That's right. But I accept people criticising Arabs, you don't accept anyone criticising Israel, or even showing pictures of Palestinian suffering.

[takeo]

Reffo




Note the items in bold about Netanyahu and the word “most” in other words NOT ALL!

Yes but the charter is very clear. Whih ones don't?



And don’t forget Pakistan too …. Hey Takeo, I have a great idea: Let us dismantle the independence of South Ossetia, the Kossovars and Pakistan …. Then after you manage to convince the world to do that, come back and talk about Israel OK?

No, what's done is done and can't be reversed. I said the same about Israel as well. It would have been equally better if the Soviet-Union stayed united, but now it can't be reversed.




Yes, for people like you, anything to do with the Jews is another matter …

over and over the same nonsense. If you can't make it with arguments, there is always the "you're an antisemite!" solution!

[Reffo]

No, but a large number ARE and the Arabs have oil so many non Arab non Muslim countries are intimidated by them..

An even larger number of nations are US-allies or are intimidated by the US.But the US does NOT put pressure on it’s allies to vote for Israel. Otherwise, most UN resolutions would be pro Israel or at least, they wouldn’t be anti Israel..


I have nothing against the people of Iran, at least not against MOST of them who are normal human beings who just want to live their lives. I am talking about the mad Ayatollah’s who preach hate..

Equally so I have nothing against the majority of Israeli, when I'm talking about Israeli policy I'm talking about their leaders and politicians.
Most people on this forum don't do anything else than preaching hatred. Against me (because I'm in favor of a two-state solution), against Arabs, etc.I know Takeo, you would be satisfied with policies that would amount to nothing less than voluntary suicide, right Takeo?


After the communists murdered millions of innocent Cambodians.

You seem to forget that the US…I forget nothing, but even if you insist about bringing the US into it even that … supports my contention about the UN…. That it is just a tool of the big powers and large blocks like the Muslim Arab block …. Small countries like Israel cannot expect justice from the UN!


Only in your feverish fantasies! The communists were the ones who committed the Cambodian genocide, period!

When the Khmer Rouge came to power they distantiated themselves from the Soviet-Union and communist Vietnam.I don’t care who the Khmer Rouge were aligned to …. They were still communists ….. and the UN did nothing about their genocide…


But only after hundreds of thousands were murdered and maimed by both sides. Which the UN did not prevent even when genocide occurred under their own noses..

Without the UN many if not most of these would still be going on. you criticise the UN but you don't offer any alternative.Unless of course the world community could come up with something more effective …


Your defense of the UN actually supports what I have been saying!

Why? I’ll let you figure it out … you are a big boy now Takeo….


I beg to differ! And Saddam’s hundreds of thousands of political prisoners and the Shiites and the Kurds and Kuwaitis and even Iranians would have differed with your description of Saddam’s Iraq as “a relatively peaceful country”.

It was a dictatorship, but a relatively peaceful one in 2003It sure was …. But it was ANYTHING BUT peaceful ….

[bararallu]

Have you read any of his books.

How can Palestinians population increase like 50X in less than a century ?
Does it make sense to you.

Man your new avatar is causing me problems again :cool: I have to get a smaller monitor.

[Reffo]

That’s another one of your lies. Right after the 1967 war Israel offered to withdraw (except from Jerusalem) in exchange for peace but the Arab League responded with the famous 3 NOs of Khartum. No negotiations, No recognition, No peace …

Except for Jerusalem? What would have been the reaction you think if Saddam would have offered to return Kouweit, but without Kouweit city? Do you honestly think this is a sincere proposal?Why should have Israel offered to withdraw from East Jerusalem? After all, Jordan too illegally occupied East Jerusalem for 19 years between 1948 and 1967.Moreover, it ethnically cleansed East Jerusalem of tens of thousands of Jews and desecrated Jewish holy places. At least Israel didn’t do any of that …


They were immigrants as there were Arab immigrants too. Are you anti immigrants, Takeo?

I'm not against immigrants, but I don't want them to create their own state here, would you accept that?I assume you are talking about France … and since you do, let me ask you: If all the native French people would pack up and leave to live in another place, say Uganda …. Why couldn’t the various remaining minority groups establish their own state? That’s what happened in Palestine, the Brits left and the UN voted to partition the land between the Jews and the Arabs. I thought you were for the UN and I was against it. Or was the UN wrong then, because it allowed Jews too to have self determination? You really don’t like Jews very much do you Takeo?


But didn’t you say that ONLY the Arabs had the right to create a state, not the Jews?

I didn't say that.So, what DID you say? I really thought that you said that ONLY the Arabs had the right to create a state, not the Jews!


And we both know what the Arabs said in 1948: They said that they would drive the Jews into the sea … That would have made the land that you call Palestine Judenrein, would it not Takeo?

I don't know about Judenrein, that's your interpretation.No Takeo, it is NOT just my interpretation. Any decent history book would tell you that the Arabs promised a war of extermination “…drive the Jews into the sea…” Those were their words…. There is NOTHING there which is open to interpretation.


But yes, again, that was a mistake, which you keep on mentioning.…It sure was a MISTAKE and it would have been even a bigger mistake for the Jews to ignore it …


Are you against Arab nationalism too Takeo?

yes.Good … it’s settled then …. Now, why are you insisting on an independent Palestinian Arab state again?


Are you against Jewish nationalism? Are you against Arab nationalism? Are you against Russian nationalism?No I am not! I never said I was. But I am against any nationalism that wants to ignore the self determination of others. That’s what Hamas does and that’s why the Palestinian Arabs have not been able to establish their own state which I would be for, as would many Israelis, if we could be assured that such a project would not endanger Israel’s own existence..


Zionism is NOT fascism or Nazism. It is the desire of the Jewish people (nation) for self determination.

But it has the same roots and the same principle as all nationalism.No it is NOT, it is just a fabrication of propagandists like you. How come there are 1 million Arab citizens?


No they didn’t! In fact your own hero, Karl Marx, reported in about 1855 (before Herzl ever wrote about his Zionist ideas) that the Jews of Jerusalem, who were the majority population of the city, were the most oppressed by Arabs/Muslims and the poorest people who were forced to live in squalid conditions.

Yet they lived there, and were even the majority in a city which is holy to all major semitic religions. they were not evicted, ethnically cleansed and not chased away.Of course Jews lived in East Jerusalem and of course they were the majority, wasn’t I telling you that all along? But they were not allowed to live peacefully even before Herzl’s Zionist Manifesto was even spoken of..

And yes, in 1948, the Palestinian Arab irregulars together with the Jordanian Arab legion DID ethnically cleanse the Jews of East Jerusalem. Tens of thousands of Jews…


I didn’t ask you, I told you that the root cause has been and still is Arab violence!

Which is a lie. Arab violence is not a cause but a reaction, as is Jewish violence.are you saying that the Jews started the violence against the Arabs? Remember the ethnic cleansing of hebron’s Jews by arabs? Remember the Arab rebellions and the war of 1948? All were started by Arabs … You lying sod, Takeo.

[bararallu]

originally posted by reffo
are you against arab nationalism too takeo?
originally posted by takeo
yes.
good … it’s settled then …. Now, why are you insisting on an independent palestinian arab state again?

lol. He's loosing the plot again.

Still wondering if he does or does not support universal self determination. On one thread he seems to, and on another thread, voila!, he doesn't. :D

[Reffo]

The newly formed nation of Israel was a victim of Palestinian/Arab aggression. They defeated the aggression and they offered peace. The Arabs did not accept and they threatened to drive the Jews into the sea in a future war. Need I say more Takeo?

How many times are you going to repeat that? I already said that was a mistake, but there have been many Israeli mistakes as well.
I'll repeat as well that Fatah, palestinian president, Egypt, Jordan, and others recognised Israel, and many more are willing to do so if Israel ends occupation and colonisation. But many Israeli politicians don't want a two-state solution and don't want to end occupation and colonisation.As many times as you ask me stupid questions Takeo. You asked me why the Jews ended up with more land and I answered you.


It sure was and the Pal Arabs continue to make the same mistakes today. Hamas is still advocating the same thing and the Palestinian people elected Hamas only a few years ago.

Israeli people elected Netanyahu and Lieberman, who, on the contrary to Hamas leaders, don't want a two-state solution even if the other side made the first step.So, now perhaps we will end up with two recalcitrant’s instead of just one …. Hamas. But then again, maybe not … we will see.


Whatever …... keep on crapping on Takeo ….. there was NO massive ethnic cleansing, there was mass flight of civilians from the war that was started by the Arabs themselves.

Did you read my post …?Did you read my response?


How come Israel has 1 million Arab citizens today? How come they were not ethnically cleansed?

Israel wanted a Jewish majority, that was the goal.So that’s why they allowed hundreds of thousands of Arabs to remain?


And how come you are not whining about the 800,000 or so Jews that the Arabs ethnically cleansed?

Because that's another issue, here we're discussing the palestinian-Israeli conflict. Why are you not whining about the 2 million or so Iraqi refugees in Syria and Jordan?No it is NOT! Those Jews were kicked out because of the hatred that the Palestinian Arabs stirred up against the Jews in Arab countries..


Are you sure you want to use him as your source? The same Benny Morris who blames Arafat for the failure of the peace talks?

Yes, as he's the only one who extensively studied this issue. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says.Ok then, I don’t have to agree with everything he says either…


But in any case, even Benny Morris does NOT say what YOU claim he says.

I'm very tired of reposting links again and again.You don’t have to post here Takeo …. Nobody is forcing you …. Go and may your lord and master, Satan, be with you …


And at least the same number of Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries directly because of the incitement that was generated by the Palestinian conflict. Many of those Jewish refugees were peacefully integrated into Israeli society and were not used as tools and cannon fodder as the Arab refugees have been by the Arabs and Palestinian leaders. Shame on them!

Israel wanted to integrate them in their society, as they badly wanted a Jewish majority.So?


Arab countries didn't want to integrate them in their societiesYou are right! Because they wanted to use them as cannon fodder against Israel..


and they didn't have to. Their home is in Israel, that's where they come fromIt was …. But it is not any longer because the Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries (from THEIR homes) have taken up their place instead. A population swap … which is as fair as these things can get …


The fact IS that Jordan attacked Israel NOT the other way around. The rest is just Arab politics..

The fact is that Israel attacked Egypt and Syria not the other way around.That’s highly debatable but I won’t debate it for now. The fact still remains that Jordan attacked Israel and that’s why they lost the West Bank…


Simple! Because despite negotiations, the parties have not agreed on a mutually acceptable peace deal. Why is that only Israel’s fault?

There haven't been real negociations between 1993 and 2008.
And while palestinians have to keep their part of the deal, recognise israel and assuring its security, (as part of a major deal) Israel too has obligations. The occupation and colonisation must end, and there should be a solution for the refugees.The Palestinians have NOT kept their part of the deal, their violence against Israeli civilians never stopped even between 1993 and 2008 and yes, there were negotiations between 1993 and 2001 and then between 2006 and 2008.

[Yala]

I criticise Arabs

?



As I said here, I'm very much in favor of peace for Israel and the Palestinians. Most people on this forum are not, and don't want a two-state solution. Most people on this site are ennemies of peace, as are Netanyahu and Lieberman.

Lieberman supports a 2 state solution. He even supports giving away the Arab parts of Jerusalem. If you don't know this it's quite surprising.

[kozzol]

Takeo.

I dont see the big deal everyone to their own opinions but are you a palestinian, do you live in Israel or Gaza?

[CanDo]

Takeo.

I dont see the big deal everyone to their own opinions but are you a palestinian, do you live in Israel or Gaza?

takeo has been lying through his teeth for months, and posting one-side, antiJewish, antiIsrael dribble. He heavily takes positions that favor the backward, violent, racist, religiously intolerant Arab/Muslim cultures. He has the typical Arab/Muslim/Palestinian mentality, lacking in reason and fairness.

Do you expect him to tell you the truth about where he lives or that he is Arab. To me there is no doubt. He is obviously Arab, and most probably a member of Hamas, or a strong supporter of Hamas.

[Reffo]

You cannot equate “settlement activities”, whatever you mean by that, to violence because whatever Israel does with settlements can be reversed and undone once a mutually acceptable solution would be reached. On the other hand, the results of violence cannot be reversed, people cannot be unkilled or unmaimed even after a peace deal …

Both are acts of war.But we were talking about pre-conditions Takeo, are you mixing up your topics? :scratch:


Didn't you say that Egypt's blockade was an act of war? Yet it didn't kill anyone, but Israel's invasion of Egypt surely did. Occupation and colonisation are acts of war, eventough they don't kill anyone. In a war, people get killed. If you don't want anyone killed, you should make peace, and stop committing acts of warWhat I said with regards to Egypt in 1967 was that their combined act of blockade, terrorism, getting rid of UN peace keepers, lining up their soldiers on Israel’s borders and threatening a war of extermination was enough of a reason for Israel to preemptively strike at Egypt especially since that situation was going on for several weeks and Israel could not afford to keep it’s army mobilized indefinitely but nor could it afford to demobilize …. So something had to give.


Did you say “too”, Takeo? Does that mean that you admit that Israel is not the only one who does not negotiate when there is violence?

Yes, that's why Syria and Abbas stopped negociations. But these are preconditions. So if preconditions to peace-talks are OK, Palestinians have their's too, such as not expanding settlements.So you are saying that the Palestinian Arabs have the right to set two preconditions (no violence by Israel AND no settlement activities) but Israel can set only one precondition (no violence)? :rolleyes:


Only because Arabs insist that violence is a a legitimate tool in resolving this conflict. Nobody would be killed if no violence would be used by the Arabs.

So Israel can continue its acts of war but Arabs don't have the right to resist, is that what you are saying?Where did I say that? I said “no violence for no violence” or if you prefer, violence for violence” but of course, my recommended choice would be “no violence for no violence”..


So why are you whining so much about what Israel did in Gaza, in response to Palestinian Arab violence?

for the same reason you are whining about the Israeli casualties.Why does this debate remind me so much of that old Laurel and Hardy skit ….. “Who is on first?” ….. “First base” ……. “that’s right”…. And Laurel looks very forlorn and lost ….. Is anyone here old enough to have seen it? It was very funny … :D


As much as you would like me to, Takeo, I don’t believe in pink Elephants and flying pigs . The fact is that Hamas lobbed it’s rockets at Israeli civilians even before the blockade and the fact is that they are on the record of saying that they want to destroy Israel. So, stopping the blockade would stop Hamas’s rockets, at best temporarily, if that …

Well, better than nothing, worth a try, and it will surely benefit Gazans as well. Israel has nothing to loose by doing so.Better for whom? As I said, I don’t believe in flying pigs, nor do most Israelis and they don’t want to take a risk (of 99.9% certainty) which could increase the rate of Israeli civilian casualties a hundred fold.. or worse!


Ahaaaaaaa Takeo, so you are suggesting that Israel should allow unsupervised shipping of goods to Gaza, Huh?

They can even inspect them, but they can't block them.But that’s one of the things that Hamas has been objecting to ..


If that’s the case, how would Israel be able to stop the delivery of advanced weapons to Hamas by Iran?

I think there should be a general weapons embargo against the entire region, untill there is a peace-deal, as happened during the Yugoslavian civil war as well.An entirely impractical proposition.

[Reffo]

I hope for a peaceminded palestinian leadership and an anti-peace leadership in Israel, at least for a year or so. In that case, international support for Palestinians will grow to the same extent as isolation of and pressure on Israel will.

That sentence reveals everything about you and how you wish harm to Israel.

In the end it will not harm Israel. International pressure and isolation can force the israeli politicians and palestinians alike to the negociating table...And you hope to see the Palestinian Arabs dictating the terms! :rolleyes:


Personally, my wish is for both people to be peace minded and make real peace.

I doubt so. In that case you would criticise many israeli mistakes as well, you would criticise the israeli right, as well as the colonisation proces.What did I say? ….. What did I say? ….. I thought I wished for something good, noble and in the spirit of good will and peace … but Takeo is coming out wildly swinging and flailing his arms …. :scratch:


Yes, for people like you, anything to do with the Jews is another matter …

over and over the same nonsense. If you can't make it with arguments, there is always the "you're an antisemite!" solution!Calm down Takeo, don’t get emotional … I just paraphrased what you said. You did say “..it is another matter …” when it came to the subject of Israel, didn’t you? :unsure:

[CanDo]

You people are without reason or hope.

Your hateful fangs are showing. Your hate of Jews is obvious and pours out in your statements.

Jews are without reason, says the sub-human slug, takeo, implying that his lies and his racist, religiously intolerant rants are "reason".

Jews are without hope, says the sub-human troll, takeo, demanding that Jews surrender to the demands of their enemies.

An obnoxious, racist statement by the Muslim cretin takeo.

[CanDo]

I hope that ... and Israel will loose its last ally. ...

You hope to isolate the small number of Jews, who are surrounded by violent, backward, uncivilized, racist, religiously intolerant Muslim/Arab enemies.

You are not only an enemy of Jews, you are an enemy of decent freedom-loving, civilized families. You wish more power to the backward, uncivilized, violent, uncivilized, racist, religiously intolerant Muslim/Arab dictatorships and tyrants.

You are sick and hateful. Some day the venom that spews from your heart will spew back at you. :vomit:

[Sharona]

Just an excellent example of my theory; you cannot extrapolate Western logic onto Middle Eastern mindsets. You'll just run on the spot forever.

[bararallu]

I'm quite certain Takeo's disposition is not one of being a Muslim or an Arab, his argumentation and references are not founded in the ME. He is a hybrid of some of the worst aspects of Eastern and Western Europe; and quite frankly he (and certainly his parents) could be on Putins payroll and he's just doing his job.

[Sharona]

I well remember my first encounter with an Arab. It was in the Arab market in Jerusalem.

His stall was selling - amongst other things - postcards of Jerusalem. I stopped to look, but didn't touch. He came out from behind his stall and asked me if I wanted to buy. I held my hands up and said 'Just looking'. He then spat in my direction, pointed into an extremely dark warren of an alley and angrily said - in good English - "Then I hope you walk down there and straight into the gates of hell"

Eeek!!

[bararallu]

"Then I hope you walk down there and straight into the gates of hell"


gates built on Arab arrogance ;)

[CanDo]

I'm quite certain Takeo ... is a hybrid of some of the worst aspects of Eastern and Western Europe; and quite frankly he (and certainly his parents) could be on Putins payroll and he's just doing his job.

I think we know that takeo is a narcissist. He posts on a Jewish forum in order to prove his superiority to Jews. All he does proves, by his endless propaganda and antiSemitism, is that he is a cold-blooded, empty shell and an ass.

He sides with uncivilized barbarians and dictatorships, against the civilized democracies. I would figure that, the reason he marches lock-step for the corrupt dictators is because, like you infer, he has something to gain by towing the party line.

He obviously cares nothing for anyone else but himself. He could care less about the Palestinians, Christians, Hindus or Jews, etc., or anyone else in his personal life. He is a hateful, dislikable, empty shell....... a parasite on this planet, living off the misery of others, misery which feeds into his narcissism. He is obviously well educated and well studied, especially in party-line propaganda, but his lack of independent thought makes him less than human.... a mindless, heartless robot.

[CanDo]

I well remember my first encounter with an Arab. It was in the Arab market in Jerusalem.

His stall was selling - amongst other things - postcards of Jerusalem. I stopped to look, but didn't touch. He came out from behind his stall and asked me if I wanted to buy. I held my hands up and said 'Just looking'. He then spat in my direction, pointed into an extremely dark warren of an alley and angrily said - in good English - "Then I hope you walk down there and straight into the gates of hell"

Eeek!!

What is sad, about your encounter, is that this pig represents a "moderate" Arab. What does that say about there being any hope of permanent peace between Israel and the Arabs?

[Y. Shulamith]

Narcissism is the mental illness of our time.

[Yala]

Do you expect him to tell you the truth about where he lives or that he is Arab. To me there is no doubt. He is obviously Arab, and most probably a member of Hamas, or a strong supporter of Hamas.

Most Europeans think like him. He isn't Arab, come on. And you don't have to be Arab to support Hamas. We saw the rallies in Turkey and the European countries marching under Hamas banners and these included white Europeans, not just Arabs.

[ItsMyJewty]

Takeo keeps talking about a two-state solution and a "Palestinian" state, but he's looking at the problem from the wrong end. The real issue isn't a "Palestinian" state but the state of the "Palestinians" - if Gaza is anything to go by, they're unable to found a viable state. The "Palestinians" are a backward, uncivilized people - founding a so called "Palestinian" state (even if it's run by the PA) won't solve the problem, which is a clash of eras, not civilizations.

[kozzol]

Most Europeans think like him. He isn't Arab, come on. And you don't have to be Arab to support Hamas. We saw the rallies in Turkey and the European countries marching under Hamas banners and these included white Europeans, not just Arabs.

I wonder now if he is a white American living in France, because we seen the same banners being waved over there.:)

[Mediocrates]

The Cost of Cast Lead

February 15, 2009: Israel has put a price on their recent Operation Cast Lead. This was the 22 day campaign in Gaza, and the Israelis are spending $590 million to replace damaged or destroyed equipment and supplies used, and restore troops to their pre campaign readiness. The Israelis expended over a thousand smart bombs and missiles, and used vast quantities of fuel and spare parts to operate the aircraft and vehicles. Reserve troops had to be paid and casualties (several hundred, although only 13 dead) taken care of. The $590 million is not the total cost of Cast Lead, but it is the bulk of it.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlog/articles/20090215.aspx

[Mediocrates]

Monday, February 16, 2009 Three noncombatants - not 40- killed near UN school in Jabalya refugee camp Perhaps the most emblematic alleged distortion of the death toll relates to the deaths near the UN school in Jabalya refugee camp, north of Gaza City, on January 6. Palestinian medical officials claimed then that some 40 Palestinians, many of them women and children who had sought refuge from the fighting, were killed at the school by IDF shells. These claims sparked condemnation from the UN, widespread allegations of a "massacre" against Israel and escalated international political demands for an urgent end to the fighting.

Analysis: Counted out: Belatedly, the IDF enters the life-and-death numbers game
David Horovitz , THE JERUSALEM POST Feb. 15, 2009
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304788705&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304788705&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull)
Throughout the three weeks of the Gaza fighting in Operation Cast Lead, this newspaper attempted to gather, from official Israeli sources, reliable information on the number and nature of the Palestinian dead. It was clear that the overall death toll in the Strip - and more specifically the number of the civilian fatalities - was serving as the yardstick by which the "proportionality" of Israel's response to Kassam fire was being measured. However, Israel was unable to provide even reasonably firm official figures for the death toll and its civilian component. Part of this inability was an inevitable consequence of the fog of a war fought in enemy territory. But part of it also stemmed from the minimal allocation of Israeli resources to the task.

In the absence of official Israeli numbers, reporters worldwide were left with firm Hamas-Gaza-supplied figures, and vague, unofficial Israeli estimates. Unsurprisingly, the Palestinian figures were universally cited in news reporting of the conflict, by the international media and largely by the Israeli media, too. These figures indicated that the overwhelming majority of those killed were civilians - indications that, in turn, exacerbated hostile international attitudes to Israel among reporters, politicians and the general public in this region and far beyond. On Sunday, four full weeks after the fighting ended, the IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA) was finally ready to show the
Jerusalem Post its research into the fatalities - information compiled from a variety of sources, notably including Hamas's own media and other open Palestinian sources.

This research contradicts the official Hamas-Gaza government claims, in the course of the fighting and since, that most of those killed were civilians. Attempting to investigate every fatality, the CLA now has a list of names, ID numbers, occupation/affiliation and circumstances of death for most of the 1,338 Palestinians killed in the course of Operation Cast Lead. (Thirteen Israelis were killed during the fighting - 10 soldiers and three civilians.) This dossier is not yet complete, but 1,200-plus fatalities have been identified by name, and the Post was shown the dossier that details them. Some 880 have been categorized as combatants or noncombatants, and the ratio is approximately two-to-one - the reverse of the impression created by Palestinian officials during the conflict, and a world away from the Hamas claim that just 48 of its fighters were killed.

Perhaps the most emblematic alleged distortion of the death toll relates to the deaths near the UN school in Jabalya refugee camp, north of Gaza City, on January 6. Palestinian medical officials claimed then that some 40 Palestinians, many of them women and children who had sought refuge from the fighting, were killed at the school by IDF shells. These claims sparked condemnation from the UN, widespread allegations of a "massacre" against Israel and escalated international political demands for an urgent end to the fighting. The CLA on Sunday, however, belatedly reported that the Palestinian death toll in that incident - which, it restated, involved Israel returning fire against Hamas gunmen outside the school facility - caused an estimated 12 fatalities, nine gunmen and three noncombatants.

CLA head Col. Moshe Levi acknowledged on Sunday that all this information on both such specific incidents as the UN school and the overall classifications of the dead - would probably be largely ignored today, since it was being made available so long after the fighting ended. But Levi explained that the IDF was not prepared to issue information unless and until it was confident of its accuracy, no matter how grievous the damage to Israel's image, and the consequent political pressures caused by the delays in contesting inaccurate facts and figures. Levi remarked that, in future conflicts, the IDF might need to bolster the resources it allocates to establishing, in real time, facts as basic as the number and identities of the dead.

Given that compiling the dossier appears to have been the responsibility of a single officer in the CLA, some might regard this remark as something of an understatement.

[Mediocrates]

IDF Releases Gaza Casualty Stats, Says Hamas Duped World

The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304788684&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) got the first look at the IDF's 200-page report cataloging the identities and status of Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead. The Post talked to Col. Moshe Levi, the head of the IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA), responsible for the collecting the numbers:
While the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, whose death toll figures have been widely cited, reports that 895 Gaza civilians were killed in the fighting, amounting to more than two-thirds of all fatalities, the IDF figures shown to the Post on Sunday put the civilian death toll at no higher than a third of the total . . .
Basing its work on the official Palestinian death toll of 1,338, Levi said the CLA had now identified more than 1,200 of the Palestinian fatalities. Its 200-page report lists their names, their official Palestinian Authority identity numbers, the circumstances in which they were killed and, where appropriate, the terrorist group with which they were affiliated.
The CLA said 580 of these 1,200 had been conclusively "incriminated" as members of Hamas and other terrorist groups.
Another 300 of the 1,200 - women, children aged 15 and younger and men over the age of 65 - had been categorized as noncombatants, the CLA said.
Counted among the women, however, were female terrorists, including at least two women who tried to blow themselves up next to forces from the Givati and Paratroopers' Brigades. Also classed as noncombatants were the wives and children of Nizar Rayyan, a Hamas military commander who refused to allow his family to leave his home even after he was warned by Israel that it would be bombed.
The 320 names yet to be classified are all men; the IDF has yet complete its identification work in these cases, but estimates that two-thirds of them were terror operatives.
The CLA gave the Post the names of several fatalities who it said had been classified by the Palestinians as "medics," but who it stated were Hamas fighters . . .
In a separate column, Post editor David Horovitz (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304788705&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) quotes Col. Levi's explanation for why the army took so long to release its figures:
CLA head Col. Moshe Levi acknowledged on Sunday that all this information - on both such specific incidents as the UN school and the overall classifications of the dead - would probably be largely ignored today, since it was being made available so long after the fighting ended. But Levi explained that the IDF was not prepared to issue information unless and until it was confident of its accuracy, no matter how grievous the damage to Israel's image, and the consequent political pressures caused by the delays in contesting inaccurate facts and figures.
Picking up on the JPost, Elder of Ziyon (http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/02/unrwa-school-story-was-lie.html) beat me to the next point, noting that coverage of the incident by the UN school was even more misleading than we realized:
The entire episode as originally reported was a lie: Israel didn't hit the school, 40+ civilians didn't die (as I mentioned that the time (http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-really-happened-at-unrwa-school.html), that is a huge death count for tank shells), and most of the death were in fact terrorists.
Coverage in Corriere Della Sera (http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/01/28/cremonesi-article-in-english/), the Globe & Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090129.wgazaschool29/BNStory/International/home), Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html), BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843633.stm), The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/world/as-israels-rockets-fell-gaza-civilians-also-had-problems-with-hamas-20090125-7pfd.html), and the Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304655613&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) show that the truth about Gaza is finally emerging.

http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2009/02/idf-releases-gaza-casualty-stats-says-hamas-duped-world.html

[Mediocrates]

The truth about Hamas

Hamas discourages Palestinians from seeking treatment in Israel
Anav Silverman

One of the most frequently reported items in the Arab-Israeli conflict today are the crossings between Gaza and Israel (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284752,00.html). As the only way for cargo, aid, and other goods to enter and leave Gaza, these crossings are essential to the livelihood of the 1.4 milion Palestinians who live in the Gaza Strip. Ten minutes away from Sderot, sits the Erez Crossing - the only crossing that serves as a pedestrian exit point for Gaza Strip residents entering Israel. The crossing is open to Palestinian workers holding permits and families seeking medical treatment in Israel. Large numbers of journalists and international foreign press also pass through the point.


I recently had the opportunity to visit the Erez crossing where the first site that greeted me was a brand new medical center, which had been opened at the start of the unilateral ceasefire between Hamas (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3377113,00.html) and Israel in mid-January. Israel's Magen David Adom ambulance service, in cooperation with the Israeli Department of Health, opened the center to treat wounded Gazans, with the Israeli government investing millions of dollars into its construction. The new Israeli medical center can handle 30 patients per hour and is staffed by paramedics and doctors who specialize in emergency medicine, pediatrics, trauma, gynecology, orthopedics, and other fields. It is equipped with state of the art laboratories, X-ray machines, and a pharmacy.

"The only problem," said Shlomo Tzaban, a manager at the Erez Crossing, "is that the medical center stands empty. No one is using it because Hamas discourages Palestinians from seeking treatment at Israeli hospitals." Before entering Erez, Palestinians must first pass through a checkpoint on the Gaza side. Hamas controls that point on the Gaza end and therefore has complete authority on Palestinians seeking to enter Israel. Subsequently, there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of Palestinians seeking medical treatment in Israel - down to 80-90% - says Tzaban. "Everyone in Gaza lives under Hamas control," explains Tzaban. "Hamas uses terror and fear to rule the Palestinian people.” Tzaban uses the judicial system in Gaza as an example.

Back in December 2008, the Hamas parliament sanctioned that Palestinian courts were to condemn offenders according to violent punitive measures under Islamic Sharia laws. Hamas punishments for Palestinian offenders include whipping, severing hands (for stealing,) crucifixion and hanging.
Tzaban, a 28-year old veteran of the IDF, emphasizes that Hamas will use any means now to win support of the Palestinians after the heavy damages inflicted by the war. "The fact that Hamas police recently raided an UNRWA storehouse in order to distribute the humanitarian aid on its own accord may shock the international community but it's happened before," says Tzaban. "In order to maintain the support of the Palestinian civilian population, Hamas is trying to show that only their regime has the power to provide for the welfare of the Palestinian people, while simultaneously waging war against Israel.”

Terrorists target crossings
The United Nations Relief and Work Agency accused Hamas of seizing humanitarian aid sent into Gaza from countries across the world on February 4. UNRWA stated that Hamas had seized thousands of blankets and hundreds of food packages that were meant to be delivered to hundreds of poor families in Gaza after UNRWA refused to hand over the humanitarian aid to the Hamas Ministry of Social Welfare.

Today, the Erez compound stands practically empty, except for a couple of Palestinian families and foreign journalists, and two peace activists standing outside. The compound was built five years ago and was meant to check through around 20,000-25,000 Palestinian workers at a time. Although the opening of the crossings is essential to the Gaza economy, Palestinian terror networks have frequently attacked the Erez crossing. “On average, there are between two to four attempted Palestinian terrorist attacks on the Erez compound each month,” according to Erez, an IDF security officer at the checkpoint. In the last four years, Palestinian terror networks have targeted the Erez crossing with almost 500 mortar shells. In May 2008, a Palestinian bomber from Gaza blew up an explosive-laden truck on the Palestinian side of the Erez crossing, causing an estimated $3.5 million in damages to the Israeli checkpoint. Along with the Erez crossing, the three other crossings between Gaza and Israel include Karnei, Kerem Shalom and Nahal Oz. Initially, the crossing points were part of the Gaza security buffer facilitated under Yitzchak Rabin’s 1994 Oslo Accords. A wave of Palestinian suicide bombers had flooded into Israel and the security buffer was built as a means to prevent the entrance of such terrorists, which it was successfully able to do. Once Palestinian terror groups recognized that suicide bombers could no longer enter Israel, they began developing rockets and explosives, intensely targeting Israeli communities bordering Gaza and the closest Israeli city to Gaza-Sderot, as well as the crossings themselves.


At this point, most of the crossings are considered closed, although the transfer of humanitarian aid into the Strip continues through the Karni, Kerem Shalom, and Nahal Oz crossings. Israel plans to fully open the crossings only when Hamas releases Gilad Shalit (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-4244,00.html), the IDF soldier kidnapped at the Kerem Shalom border crossing almost three years ago.

Anav Silverman is the International Correspondent for Sderot Media Center (www.SderotMedia.com (http://www.sderotmedia.com/)).

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3672524,00.html

[CLL1709]

Israel just has to get some competent public relations people! The truth is not what counts, it is the impression that seems to matter especially to the "outside" world like the EU that have allowed themselves to be taken over by Islam. Just goes to show you what a lack of energy independence will do to a country or countries. For some reason the liberals here in America want to do the same thing to this country. I do believe it is a sickness! They want open borders, socialism for EVERYONE, citizen or not, and somehow the rest of us are supposed to find a way to support it all.

So, what difference does it make if the numbers the IDF report are correct or not. Just minimize everything and say when disputed, but of course you are mistaken! And go on to the next thing. Good grief, where are Israel's Abba Ebans?:rolleyes:

[maven]

Explosives haul missing in Gaza.
Tuesday, 17 February 2009

A large stockpile of unexploded weapons has disappeared in Gaza, before United Nations experts were able to dispose of it safely, the BBC has learned.

The explosives, including aircraft bombs and white phosphorus shells, were fired by the Israeli military during its recent offensive in the Gaza Strip.

UN officials said they were urgently trying to establish where the arms had gone and have called for their return.

Israel has accused Hamas of taking the stockpile, which was under Hamas guard.

A UN Mines Action Team has been in Gaza since the end of the war, last month, its job to locate unexploded Israeli ordnance and to organise its safe disposal.

Two weeks ago, on 2 February, the UN team was given access to a storage site in Gaza City where more than 7,000kg of explosives were being housed.

They included three 2,000-pound bombs and eight 500-pound bombs, which had all been dropped from aircraft but failed to explode.

There was also a large number of 155mm shells for delivering the incendiary chemical white phosphorus.

Safe areas

Many of the explosives had been collected by the Hamas authorities in the Gaza Strip.

The UN staff had been waiting for the Israeli army to allow them to bring specialist equipment into Gaza so they would be able to destroy the explosives safely.

Continued:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7895123.stm

[Mediocrates]

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20090219.aspx

The World's Heaviest IFV Goes To War

February 19, 2009: Last month, Israel used several of its new Nemer IFV (infantry fighting vehicle) in Gaza. This was the first combat experience for the Nemer , and it performed as expected. One was used for a forward command post, enabling officers to get close to the fighting and, using several radios and sensors in the Nemer, to quickly shift forces and call in air support.

The Nemer is based on the chassis of older Merkava I and II series tanks that are being retired. Thus Nemer will have the thick armor of the Merkava. With the turret removed, a remotely controlled (from inside the vehicle) heavy machine-gun has been added. The Merkava lends itself to this kind of modification, because the engine is mounted in the front and there is already a door in the back of the vehicle.

While the Israelis liked the speed of the Stryker, which they considered ordering, they felt they will still be fighting in urban areas, against Palestinian terrorists, in the next ten years. There, the Nemer has an edge, because of its thicker armor. Out in the open, the Stryker has an edge. If the Israelis cannot afford to build enough Nemers, they will add armor to their existing supply of M-113 APCs. But based on tests, and the first experience in Gaza, troops prefer the Nemer.

The Nemer carries eleven people (a driver, gunner, vehicle commander and eight infantry). The passenger compartment is also equipped with a stretcher, that enables one casualty to be carried along with a full load of 11 troops. In addition to the remotely controlled 12.7mm machine-gun, there is also a roof hatch on the left forward part of the vehicle, for the commander to use, and also operate a 7.62mm machine-gun. The vehicle also has the Merkava battle management system, as well as four cameras providing 360 degree vision around the vehicle. The remotely controlled machine-gun has a night vision sight. The vehicle also has a toilet, an addition based on troop feedback (and many missions where they had to stay on board for up to 24 hours at a time in combat zones.)

Israel has over two hundred Merkava I tanks, the oldest are at least 25 years old. Removing the turret leaves you with a 44 ton Nemer, the heaviest IFV ever built. Earlier, Israel had experimented with using T-55 and Centurian tanks as IFVs. This did not work because the engines in these vehicles were in the rear, where the exit doors of AFVs usually are. Thus troops had to enter and exit via top hatches. This was not a good idea in combat. When the older Merkavas became available, IFV conversions were an obvious application. Israeli troops were not happy with their elderly and poorly protected M113 APCs (Armored Personnal Carriers), and were eager to get a safer vehicle.

Nearly 40 Nemers have already been delivered, and now Israel plans to produce over a hundred more, in order to equip two combat brigades. The existing Nemers are being used for training. Note that Nemer is sometimes spelled Namer, in case you want to go searching for more information on the subject.



See also

http://www.supervideo.com/MXCD-ROMOS.htm

[KiwiWriter]

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20090219.aspx

The World's Heaviest IFV Goes To War



Thank you for that article. Last week I read an article about Namer in a friend's Janes Defense Weekly and I was wondering when and if they were operationally deployed.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-Mystery-Dead-Of-Gaza-2-20-2009.asp

The Mystery Dead Of Gaza
by James Dunnigan (http://jimdunnigan.com/)
February 20, 2009

Palestinians have found, in their decades of fighting Israel, that well crafted lies can be an effective weapon. The recent 22 day battle in Gaza, between Hamas and Israel, ended with the Palestinians claiming they had lost 1,300 dead, and the Israelis admitting to 13 (including four soldiers from friendly fire.) Now, as reporters get into Gaza, and start asking questions, the Palestinian death toll is starting to shrink. Medical personnel at the Palestinian hospitals say that there appeared to be no more than about 500 dead, and most of them were young males (guys of fighting age). Civilian dead appear to have been no more than a hundred or so. Gaza is not the first time this has happened. Take the 2002 battle in Jenin, in the West Bank. Jenin was a refugee camp that had been taken over by five terrorist groups (including Hamas) and used as a base for launching over a hundred attacks on Israelis (mostly civilians.) The fighting went on for nine days, and even before it was over (with a crushing defeat for the terrorists) it was being claimed that the Israelis had massacred over a thousand Arab civilians. But once a detailed investigation was conducted, outside experts (most of them pro-Arab) concluded that only 53 Arabs were killed (only five could be conclusively proven to be civilians), and 23 Israelis (who went to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties). The rest were armed Palestinians trying to kill Israelis. Some 200 Arab terrorists also surrendered, and a few escaped the camp.


When the Palestinians first made their claims of an Israeli massacre, the generally anti-Israeli Western media (especially in Europe, where anti-Semitism was awakening from its post-World War II slumber) accepted the claims and pumped out stories of the alleged Israeli barbarity. The Palestinians provided photo ops and trained witnesses to the alleged atrocities. Most Western media took all this at face value. Same thing happened recently in Gaza, although there were a few more Western, and Moslem, journalists who were skeptical. But they had to keep it down, as the Palestinian propaganda was still ascendant.


Back in 2002, it wasn't long before the edifice of lies began to crumble. Aerial photos of Jenin showed the area where the fighting took place was very small area. Efforts to identify victims kept coming up with only a few dozen dead. Some of more strident anti-Israeli groups insisted that this was all a clever Israeli cover-up, and that hundreds of dead Arabs were secretly carted away and disposed of. But no one could find anyone who knew any of these mystery dead. The same thing is happening in Gaza. And why wouldn't it.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htintel/articles/20090221.aspx

Don't Get Caught

February 21, 2009: Israel is paying more attention to Palestinian combat casualties, after noting how successful the Palestinians have been in exploiting imaginary civilian losses for propaganda benefits. The Palestinians have found, in their decades of fighting Israel, that well crafted lies can be their most effective weapon. The recent 22 day battle in Gaza, between Hamas and Israel, ended with the Palestinians claiming they had lost 1,300 dead, and the Israelis admitting to 13 (including four soldiers from friendly fire.) Then, as reporters get into Gaza, and start asking questions, the Palestinian death toll began to shrink and mutate. Medical personnel at the Palestinian hospitals said that there appeared to be no more than about 500 dead, and most of them were young males (guys of fighting age). Civilian dead appear to have been no more than a hundred or so.

At this point, Israeli intelligence went into high gear, and began compiling and scrutinizing all reports of Palestinian deaths during the 22 day war. Israel has a lot of data on who Gazans are, both from when they ran the place (until they withdrew in 2005) and from intel collected since then. Israel found that there were 1,338 Palestinians killed during the war. But they also discovered that two-thirds of them were men of military age. This tracked with reports from Israeli troops about the number of Hamas fighters they had encountered, and killed. Hamas had claimed that only a third of the dead were men of military age. So Hamas was trying to pass off its military dead as "innocent civilians."


Gaza is not the first time this has happened. Take the 2002 battle in Jenin, in the West Bank. Jenin was a refugee camp that had been taken over by five terrorist groups (including Hamas) and used as a base for launching over a hundred attacks on Israeli civilians. The fighting went on for nine days, and even before it was over (with a crushing defeat for the terrorists) it was being claimed that the Israelis had massacred over a thousand Arab civilians. But once a detailed investigation was conducted, outside experts (most of them pro-Arab) concluded that only 53 Arabs were killed (only five could be conclusively proven to be civilians), along with 23 Israelis (who went to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties). The rest were armed Palestinians trying to kill Israelis. Some 200 Arab terrorists also surrendered, and a few escaped the camp.
When the Palestinians first made their claims of an Israeli massacre, the generally anti-Israeli Western media (especially in Europe, where anti-Semitism was awakening from its post-World War II slumber) accepted the claims and pumped out stories of the alleged Israeli barbarity. The Palestinians provided photo ops and trained witnesses to the alleged atrocities. Most Western media took all this at face value. Same thing happened recently in Gaza, although there were a few more Western, and Moslem, journalists who were skeptical. But they had to keep it down, as the Palestinian propaganda was still ascendant.


Back in 2002, it wasn't long before the edifice of lies began to crumble. Aerial photos of Jenin showed the area where the fighting took place was very small area. Efforts to identify victims kept coming up with only a few dozen dead. Some of more strident anti-Israeli groups insisted that this was all a clever Israeli cover-up, and that hundreds of dead Arabs were secretly carted away and disposed of. But no one could find anyone who knew any of these mystery dead. The same thing is happening in Gaza. And why wouldn't it?


Hamas got caught out in trying to pull another Jenin scam in Gaza. There, during the fighting, Hamas claimed (and the UN initially went along with it) that the Israelis had attacked a UN compound and killed 40 civilians who had taken shelter there. Further investigation, involving the UN, revealed that the Israeli attack was against Hamas fighters outside the UN compound. A dozen people were killed, nine of them armed Hamas members, and thee of them civilians.

[Madeline]

"the generally anti-Israeli Western media (especially in Europe, where anti-Semitism was awakening from its post-World War II slumber) accepted the claims and pumped out stories of the alleged Israeli barbarity.."
Do you think they will hang their heads in shame and admit they were wrong? And should I hold my breath while waiting?

[Reffo]

I wouldn't...

[KiwiWriter]

"the generally anti-Israeli Western media (especially in Europe, where anti-Semitism was awakening from its post-World War II slumber) accepted the claims and pumped out stories of the alleged Israeli barbarity.."
Do you think they will hang their heads in shame and admit they were wrong? And should I hold my breath while waiting?

That would truely be a miracle if they did. In the meantime I'd recommend you keep breathing ;)

[Golem of Prague]

Israel just has to get some competent public relations people! The truth is not what counts, it is the impression that seems to matter especially to the "outside" world like the EU that have allowed themselves to be taken over by Islam. Just goes to show you what a lack of energy independence will do to a country or countries. For some reason the liberals here in America want to do the same thing to this country. I do believe it is a sickness! They want open borders, socialism for EVERYONE, citizen or not, and somehow the rest of us are supposed to find a way to support it all.

So, what difference does it make if the numbers the IDF report are correct or not. Just minimize everything and say when disputed, but of course you are mistaken! And go on to the next thing. Good grief, where are Israel's Abba Ebans?:rolleyes:
You can have any number of Abba Ebans, it won't change the fact that the Western media is structurally incapable of reporting the truth. It's not even deliberate bias as much as it is the nature of a reporter's job.

[Lana Wolfe]

I like watching Glenn Beck on fox news... who's with me? !! :)

[dayag]

I like watching Glenn Beck on fox news... who's with me? !! :)

Check out the Glenn Beck poll:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=293606&postcount=1

[Madeline]

I like watching Glenn Beck on fox news... who's with me? !! :)
This is fun, try it:
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/21694/

But you must post the results...:rock:

[Madeline]

"Sounding the Alarm"

My postings go out to many people in the US, and it is to all of you in particular that I speak now.

That Israel has friends in the US is incontrovertible. This is the case notably within right wing segments of the Jewish community, and within certain segments of the Christian community.

But there is the sense here in Jerusalem today that as a nation we stand alone among the nations of the world as perhaps never before. (The one exception at the moment being Canada, which I note with gratitude.)

This is how Jerusalem Post editor David Horovitz puts it:

"Israel is the only sovereign state whose destruction international society will excuse."

Horovitz wrote this in the context of talking about the state of politics in Britain today, where, according to British journalist Nick Cohen, the modern Left, "succors and indulges...the clerical fascists of radical Islam":

"From the broadcasters, through the liberal press, the Civil Service, the Metropolitan Police, the bench of bishops and the judiciary, anti-Semitism is no longer an unthinkable mental deformation. As long as the conspiracy theories of the counter-enlightenment come from the ideologues with the dark rather than white skins, nominally liberal men and women will not speak out."

~~~~~~~~~~

Why do I address this to you, in America? Because Horovitz also tells us that Israel's Ambassador to the UN Ron Prosor warned, during a talk at the recent Herzliya Conference, that:

"...where Britain is today, America will be in a few years time."

Exaggeration? I think not. I am watching as a president with Muslim identifications and connections actively courts the Muslim world, while a good portion of the American populace still thinks he's great and deigns not to criticize him.

As I face this truth, an icy chill grips my heart.

~~~~~~~~~~

I know that there is precious little that I can do to stop Obama, except to sound alarms such as this one via my writing, and to consistently provide pertinent information. And that is why I address each of you.

I hope you won't find the picture of the finger pointing, below, offensive. I most certainly don't mean it to be: I intend it, rather, to emphasize the significance of having each of you take this message personally.


For the unvarnished truth, the painful reality, is that the future of Western society, with the US at its core, depends on people like you. And it's time for each of you to take this charge seriously. A simple silent agreement with what I write won't cut it. "Tch tch" or "Oy!" is useless, even if most sincerely intended -- useless, unless it is accompanied by action.

How does that saying go? "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing."

~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~

[Madeline]

Action:

Work hard to convince others -- relatives and friends -- of the dangers the US faces. Write (brief, unemotional, fact-filled) letters to the editor. Contact foreign desk editors, registering complaints (nicely --nasty doesn't work) when the news reflects an anti-Israel bias.

Of great significance, contact elected and appointed officials and register protests, clearly and frequently. The White House, the State Department, and members of both Houses of Congress must hear what you have to say. I will follow with specific names of greatest import.

Garner groups of local activists to do all of these things with you. Get out contact information of Congresspeople (information on this follows below), and provide talking points for important issues (which I will always help with). Be a catalyst. Be brave and determined. Form a list.

If you are a member of a major Jewish establishment organization -- American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, Hadassah, Emunah, ORT, B'nai B'rith, AMIT, etc. etc. raise your voice within those circles and insist that they be involved officially in making protest. The majority of these organizations have been all too quiet, and they need to hear from their members and financial supporters on this issues.

No more passivity. Act as if the lives of your children and grandchildren will depend on this. For they will.

~~~~~~~~~~

To those on my list already doing these things -- and some of you have been in contact with me -- I say thank you, and please don't stop. (Bunny S., you're great!)

~~~~~~~~~~

There will many issues to be addressed that I will raise over time. Here I want to return once again to the Durban 2 preparatory committee and the issue of US participation. This participation is the single most alarming decision Obama has made yet. It not only has serious repercussions, it points in an exceedingly dangerous direction.

That is why the Obama administration must get the message -- immediate and vociferous -- that this is not acceptable. The US is headed down a very slippery slope.

~~~~~~~~~~

[Madeline]

Today I begin with the most recent column of Caroline Glick.

In part she reviews material covered the other day by Anne Bayefsky of Eye on the UN (whom I cited last week).

Ostensibly, the US delegation sent by Obama to participate in the preparatory committee -- along with the likes of Libya, Cuba, Iran and Pakistan -- is only there to try to make things better. The US says it still holds out the option of refusing to attend the actual sessions in Geneva in April if improvements aren't made in the document that will set the agenda of the conference.

But, says Bayefsky, this is exceedingly disingenuous for several reasons:

-- The decision to participate at all represents a major shift in US policy, as the US government, since 2001, has boycotted all Durban proceedings.

-- The stated purpose of Durban 2 is "to foster the implementation of the Durban Declaration and Program of Action. This is non-negotiable and cannot be changed by U.S. participation, period."

"...all U.N. states attending these preparatory sessions have already agreed to 'reaffirm the Durban Declaration.'...joining negotiations now means agreeing to its provisions for the first time."

As Glick puts it, as the original Durban Declaration "include[s] the anti-Israel assertion that Israel is a racist state, it is clear that the Durban II conference is inherently, and necessarily, anti-Israel."

~~~~~~~~~~

But Glick now carries this further:

"The second reason that both the State Department and the White House must realize that they are powerless to affect the conference's agenda is because that agenda was already set in previous planning sessions... and that agenda includes multiple assertions of the basic illegitimacy of the Jewish people's right to self-determination.

"Beyond all that, assuming that the Obama administration truly wishes to change the agenda, the fact is that the US is powerless to do so. As was the case in 2001, so too, today, the Islamic bloc, supported by the Third World bloc, has an automatic voting majority."

Writes Glick:

"SINCE IT came into office a month ago, every single Middle East policy the Obama administration has announced has been antithetical to Israel's national security interests. From President Barack Obama's intense desire to appease Iran's mullahs in open discussions; to his stated commitment to establish a Palestinian state as quickly as possible...; to his expressed support for the so-called Saudi peace plan...; to his decision to end US sanctions against Syria and return the US ambassador to Damascus; to his plan to withdraw US forces from Iraq and so give Iran an arc of uninterrupted control extending from Iran to Lebanon, every single concrete policy Obama has enunciated harms Israel.

"At the same time, none of the policies that Obama has adopted can be construed as directed against Israel. In and of themselves, none can be viewed as expressing specific hostility toward Israel. Rather, they are expressions of naiveté, or ignorance, or - at worst - deliberate denial of the nature of the problems of the Arab and Islamic world on the part of Obama and his advisers.

"The same cannot be said of the administration's decision to send its delegation to the Durban II planning session this past week in Geneva. Unlike every other Obama policy, this is a hostile act against Israel. This is true first of all because the decision was announced in the face of repeated Israeli requests that the US join Israel and Canada in boycotting the Durban II conference. (emphasis added)

"...what lies behind Israel's requests for a US boycott is not a partisan agenda, but a clearheaded acknowledgement that the Durban II conference is inherently devoted to the delegitimization and destruction of the Jewish state. And by joining in the planning sessions, the US has become a full participant in legitimizing and so advancing this overtly anti-Jewish agenda. (emphasis added)

~~~~~~~~~~

Glick goes on to describe what happened at a committee session last Thursday, when the Palestinian delegation proposed that a paragraph be added to the conference's agenda, which "calls for implementation of... the advisory opinion of the ICJ [International Court of Justice] on the wall, [i.e., Israel's security fence], and the international protection of Palestinian people throughout the occupied Palestinian territory."

"The American delegation raised no objection to the Palestinian draft. (emphasis added)

"Issued in 2004, the ICJ's advisory opinion on the security fence claimed that Israel has no right to self-defense against Palestinian terrorism. At the time, both the US and Israel rejected the ICJ's authority to issue an opinion on the subject.

"On Thursday, by not objecting to this Palestinian draft, not only did the US effectively accept the ICJ's authority, for practical purposes it granted the anti-Israel claim that Jews may be murdered with impunity."

~~~~~~~~~~
Glick's conclusion: "...through its behavior at the Geneva planning sessions this week, the US has demonstrated that State Department protestations aside, the administration has no interest in changing the agenda in any serious way. The US delegation's decision not to object to the Palestinian draft, as well its silence in the face of Iran's rejection of a clause in the conference declaration that mentioned the Holocaust, show the US did not join the planning session to change the tenor of the conference. The US is participating in the planning sessions because it wishes to participate in the conference. (emphasis added)

"The Durban II conference, like its predecessor, is part and parcel of a campaign to coordinate the diplomatic and legal war against the Jewish state...

"By participating in the conference, the US today is effectively giving American support to the war against the Jewish state.

"The open hostility toward Israel expressed by the Obama administration's decision to participate in the Durban process should be a red flag for both the Israeli government and for Israel's supporters in the US. Both Israel and its Jewish and non-Jewish supporters must openly condemn the administration's move and demand that it reverse its decision immediately. (emphasis added)
http://www.jpost.com /servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304831938&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

~~~~~~~~~~

Now, as the alarm gets louder, I add information from one more very recent article by Anne Bayefsky. This is what she says:

"The Feb. 20 State Department press release says the U.S. delegation in Geneva 'outline[d] our concerns with the current outcome document' and in particular 'our strong reservations about the direction of the conference, as the draft document singles out Israel for criticism.' One member of the delegation told The Washington Post: 'The administration is pushing back against efforts to brand Israel as racist in this conference.' In fact, tucked away in a Geneva hall with few observers, the U.S. had done just the opposite. The U.S. delegates had made no objection to a new proposal to nail Israel in an anti-racism manifesto that makes no other country-specific claims. (emphasis added)

It's an Obama administration "cover-up," says Bayefsky. Which means we cannot depend on what is reported on this issue by government sources or journalists tending to support the administration.

The silence of the U.S. delegation is all the more disturbing because Bayefsky reports that it had no trouble raising objections on other issues at the meeting.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/22/obama-israel-holocaust-durban-opinions-contributors_united_nations.html

~~~~~~~~~~

Contact the White House, the State Department, and your elected Senators and Congresspersons on this issue. Be strong and clear in your demand that the US pull out of Durban planning sessions. Use the information provided above to make your case succinctly: The US cannot change the anti-Israel direction of the proceedings and is instead legitimizing the process of undermining Israel.

Phone calls and faxes are most effective. Use e-mail if that is what is possible for you.

An important hint when contacting Senators and Congresspersons: Call their respective offices and ask for the staffer who is responsible for foreign affairs or Middle East affairs. Either speak to that individual directly, fax in care of that individual, or secure an e-mail address for him or her for sending a direct message. Members of Congress do not have the time or energy to read all messages, or consider all facts. They depend upon key staffers to advise them. You reach the members of Congress most effectively by reaching the appropriate high level staffer.

President Barack Obama:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/ (for email contact form)

Fax: 202-456-2461

White House Comment line: 202-456-1111



Secretary of State Hillary Clinton:

Public Communication Division

Phone: 202-647-6575

Fax: 202-647-2283

e-mail: secretary@state.gov

To locate your representatives in Congress, see:

http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml

To locate your senator:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

You can often secure best contact info. by logging on to the website of the representative or senator.

~~~~~~~~~~

[CanDo]

Israel had the chance to destroy Hamas and allow both Palestinians and Jews to live in peace, without Hamas's blood-thirsty Islamist chokehold over the area. But, unfortunately, Israel's weak "leaders" snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and left Gaza before the job was done, mostly due to pressure from Egypt.

What mind-numbing stupidity and ignorance!

Israel has been bombed daily since the pullout from Gaza. Nice going Olmert, Livni and Barak! With these three cowardly, air-heads Israel has no chance for a true lasting peace. The next step is for this incompetent, weak triumvirate to give-up pieces of Israel to Israel's Jew-hating, Christian-hating, violent, backward enemies, in the hopes that the appeasement of Israel's barbaric neighbors and enemies will bring peace!?

Idiots like Olmert, Livni and Barak are leading Israel straight into the jaws of Israel's antiSemitic enemies. More amazing than that is that almost half of Israel's population agree with them! :eek:

[Madeline]

Idiots like Olmert, Livni and Barak are leading Israel straight into the jaws of Israel's antiSemitic enemies. More amazing than that is that almost half of Israel's population agree with them!

Brown nosing world views instead of showing a spine. Israel isn't the only one. You just wait.

[CanDo]

Olmert, Barak and Livni, Israel's weak, spineless leadership, has led Israel down another disastrous path. It is a damn shame that the brave, courageous men and women of the IDF sacrificed their lives and bodies, just to have Israel's incompetent leaders throw away any gains from the expedition into Gaza. What a damn waste of the time, talent and courage of the IDF!!! :mad:

Excerpts From Debka:

Hamas missile upsurge erodes Israeli deterrence, dashes ceasefire hopes

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5937

Ten Palestinian missiles struck Israel from the Gaza Strip Saturday, Feb. 28, including two heavyweight Grads aimed at Ashkelon. The number since Israel halted Operation Cast Lead Jan. 18 has risen to seventy.

DEBKAfile's military sources directly correlate the upsurge of Palestinian rockets attacks on Israel and the setbacks in securing the release of the captive Israeli soldier Gilead Shalit with defense minister Ehud Barak's dogged insistence on the imminence of an Egyptian-brokered long-term ceasefire.

The figures are irrefutable, the ceasefire is receding and the message from Cairo is plain. The Egyptians say the rockets will keep on coming and the Israeli soldier stay missing until the rival Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah reach an accord on sharing power, which is Cairo's top priority.

Israel is not offered any say in this process; neither is Hamas required to abandon violence or its ruling ambition to destroy Israel. But the Palestinian Islamists' conditions for a deal are largely addressed to… Israel. Hence the pressure-by-missile.

Cairo optimistically forecasts a "successful" outcome later this month; other Arab sources mention April-May. But Barack and his envoy to Cairo Amos Gilead seem to have no qualms about Cairo's linkage of Palestinian missile fire and a Palestinian unity accord, although this makes Ashkelon hostage to a Palestinian factional reconciliation. And what happens if the Palestinian deal falls through, as it has before?

For more than a month, therefore, Israeli retaliation for the missile attacks has been muted, restricted to the harmless aerial bombardment of empty buildings and smuggling tunnels in Gaza.


This tactic contradicts the promises Barak and foreign minister Tzipi Livni made that Israel would respond instantaneously and effectively to Palestinian aggression from Gaza, if the military operation of January failed to bring the promised "new security reality" to southern Israel.

Sensing this weakness in Israel's stance, Hamas which has quickly recovered from its hammering at Israel's hands is moving forward on three fronts:

1. An upsurge in missile attacks: Saturday, two newly upgraded 170mm Grad missiles were launched against Ashkelon. One went through the fortified roof of a schoolroom where no lessons were held because of the Sabbath.

This attack on an important Israeli port-city made nonsense of the defense minister's claim that Israel's deterrence capacity was in place.


2. Iran is smuggling larger quantities of weapons to Hamas via Sinai than during the days prior to Operation Cast Lead: 50 improved Grad rockets, different types of anti-air missiles and tons of explosives were delivered in the last two weeks.

That takes care of another solemn promise (delivered by Amos Gilead) that, if Israel agreed to a Cairo-brokered unilateral ceasefire last month, Egypt would reciprocate with strenuous action to stem the smuggling of arms to Hamas through its territory.

Our sources add that Tehran, which took that promise seriously, had planned alternative, more expensive and roundabout smuggling routes. Now Iran sees it can save itself the trouble and go back to shipping arms via Sinai to Gaza relatively undisturbed.

3. Hamas is digging its heel in harder than ever before on the release of Gilead Shalit. This tramples yet another of Barak's assurances, this one endorsed by the outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert, that the military offensive would bring his freedom closer. Hamas has made it clear that the price for his release is up and still rising.

[Madeline]

Oh no.

[CanDo]

This tactic contradicts the promises Barak and foreign minister Tzipi Livni made that Israel would respond instantaneously and effectively to Palestinian aggression from Gaza, if the military operation of January failed to bring the promised "new security reality" to southern Israel.



Yet..... after Barak and Livni have shown total inability to make any kind of intelligent decision, or planning, regarding Hamas and Israel's security, they both refuse to join in a unity government, urgently needed to address the serious problems facing Israel right now.

These incompetent boobs are playing politics, while, at the same time, making insanely stupid decisions regarding Israel's security! :mad:

Yet...... if there was another election, brain-dead, ideological, dogma-driven Israelis would still turn out in droves to keep these two ineffective boobs in office; dooming Israel to an uncertain, unstable future. :banghead:

[tordon]

I think there is a need for a greater exploration of the fundamental issues at hand in this conflict. I try to promote these sort of conversations on my blog. Check out my signature.

[Elin]

Actually Turkey is pretty evenly divided. The ruling AKP party received less than half (47%) of the vote in 2007. The country could go either way.

Now its 38.76% dayag,that's what they get in March 29 local election.It is an important decline in votes as the former 47 percent vote has dropped to 39 percent within 20 months while Kemalist parties (CHP+DSP) and Nationalist party gained extra 4.5 million voters in the same period.According to political experts (and general view) AKP’s decline rate will increasingly continue.After 7 years of AKP government for the first time there's such an optimism in the country.

[dayag]

Now its 38.76% dayag,that's what they get in March 29 local election.It is an important decline in votes as the former 47 percent vote has dropped to 39 percent within 20 months while Kemalist parties (CHP+DSP) and Nationalist party gained extra 4.5 million voters in the same period.According to political experts (and general view) AKP’s decline rate will increasingly continue.After 7 years of AKP government for the first time there's such an optimism in the country.

I am very happy to hear that, Elin. Long live the secular Turkish republic (Yaşasın laik Türkiye Cumhuriyeti!).