The Battle for Gaza has begun!

[CanDo]

Soldiers exchange fire with Hamas gunmen inside Strip

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733150721&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


From the article:

=== "For the first time since the start of Operation Cast Lead, IDF ground troops entered the Gaza Strip on Saturday evening, exchanging fire with Hamas gunmen.

The IDF said that a large amount of troops from the Armored Corps, Engineering Corps and Infantry Corps entered the territory with the purpose of destroying Hamas infrastructure and preventing rocket fire by taking control of launching pads "in order to greatly reduce the quantity of rockets fired at Israel and Israeli civilians."

The IDF warned that terrorists using civilians as human shields would bear full responsibility for their fate. The IDF spokesperson emphasized that "anyone who hides a terrorist or weapons in his house is considered a terrorist," adding that "the residents of Gaza are not the target of the operation." " ===


God Speed the IDF to defeat Hamas so that Jewish children no longer have to sleep in dread and fear of Muslim rockets bursting into their bedrooms.

[varian]

Soldiers exchange fire with Hamas gunmen inside Strip


God Speed the IDF to defeat Hamas so that Jewish children no longer have to sleep in dread and fear of rockets bursting into their bedrooms.


I'll second that!!!

[Ariaku]

I'm all for the IDF to kill or capture every rocket launching happy palestinian.

I'm just curious about what the rules for the IDF are concerning the Sabbath?

Just curious.

Ariaku

[CanDo]

I'll second that!!!

Man......! My stomach is in knots! Hoping....... waiting....... wanting to hear only good news from the battle against the demented, uncivilized Hamas barbarians by the civilized, intelligent, brave soldiers of the IDF.

[Rob]

I'm just curious about what the rules for the IDF are concerning the Sabbath?


Pikuach Nefesh.
Same as Yom Kippur...

[genghis_tom]

edit

[genghis_tom]

edit

[CanDo]

Huge explosion and fire southern part of Gaza City!

The fire is lighting up the night sky

Can anyone imagine what life would be like in Israel if Hamas is neutralized, and would not be able to seriously threaten anyone else but their own Palestinians.

[Parsi]

Israel must finish this campaign quickly and effectively, or it'll be another victory for Hamas.

[Rob]

er...could you translate that?

Pikuach Nefesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh)


Pikuach nefesh (Hebrew: פיקוח נפש‎, "saving of human life") is the principle in Jewish law that the saving of a human life is paramount, overriding virtually any other religious consideration.

The laws of Shabbat and the Jewish holidays may be suspended for the purposes of pikuach nefesh. The earliest known example of this took place in 167 BCE, when Mattathias and the Hasmoneans declared that it was permitted for their followers to fight on the Sabbath day to defend themselves from attack


and does that have to do with the campaign starting on saturday night as opposed to during the sabbath?

I donot think so, but I am not sure.

[CanDo]

Israel must finish this campaign quickly and effectively, or it'll be another victory for Hamas.

Israel wants international monitors in Gaza to oversee a Gaza that cannot threaten Israel.

I would assume that Israel is going to hold onto portions of Gaza, like the border with Egypt, until some kind of a reasonable, workable solution can be worked out for international monitors.

I would prefer NATO forces, if at all possible, rather than UN or EU representatives for there to be any chance of success. Plus..... Hamas needs to be neutralized, without any ability to re-arm, or re-attack Israeli communities.

[codedvirus]

Hamas vows to turn Gaza in a graveyard for Israeli troops

Associated Press - January 3, 2009 3:43 PM ET

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Hamas says Israeli troops are approaching the trap it's prepared for them in Gaza that will turn the territory into "a graveyard" for them.

Israel launched a ground offensive into Gaza after nightfall today. Defense officials have said about 10,000 soldiers have been massed along the border in recent days.

Hamas says it broadcast a message in Hebrew on Israeli military radio frequencies promising to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers. The message warned troops they would "suffer mental illness from the horrors" its fighters would show them.

Hamas has long prepared for an Israeli invasion, digging tunnels and rigging some areas with explosives. Before moving the ground forces moved in, Israeli artillery shelled border areas, apparently to detonate hidden explosives and mines.

[Yala]

Israel wants international monitors in Gaza to oversee a Gaza that cannot threaten Israel.

And what will that achieve? We saw what having international monitors in Lebanon has achieved. Nothing.

Livni needs to be held accountable for UN 1701 first and foremost.

[CanDo]

And what will that achieve? We saw what having international monitors in Lebanon has achieved. Nothing.

Livni needs to be held accountable for UN 1701 first and foremost.

I think that an International buffer of monitors, especially from NATO, would not stand by idly while a "neutralized" Hamas fired rockets into Israel. As I said before, it would take a neutralized Hamas that would not be able to rearm itself. For that to happen, Israel would have to take control of the Gaza/Egypt border.

It could work.

[Steven]

I'll second that!!!

Ditto.

[help-israel-win]

Israel needs to finish Hamas once and for all. If Israel will back down beforhand, Hamas and rest of the world will say that Israel lost the war.
Israel needs any support that it can get right now
there are some sites like:
http://www.giyus.co.il/
http://winnet.co.il/
http://www.help-israel-win.com/

The last site offers to download a tiny software (it only takes 20mb of memory) that disrupts hamases websites. I downloaded it and its not a virus, so it sounds cool. Check it out.

[Turkey]

i hope whoe terrorists die in that battle

[CanDo]

i hope whoe terrorists die in that battle

You claim to be a Muslim who supports Israel.

If so..... do you have to hide your support for Israel when with your friends and neighbors in Turkey? Aren't you in danger if those living around you find out that you support Israel?

What made you turn against the Islamic Terrorists?

[Anatolia]

What made you turn against the Islamic Terrorists?

Maybe because we are not an islamic terrorist country and never was one? Maybe because our country has been fighting against terror since decades,not just in Turkey but also outside of Turkey (like Afghanistan for example)? Maybe because in Turkey we have a hardcore secularist state (like France,these two countries are the most secularist states on the earth) and a secular education system and we grew up with Ataturk's principles and revolutions?

Do you want to hear more maybies?

[help-israel-win]

Israel needs to finish Hamas once and for all. If Israel will back down beforhand, Hamas and rest of the world will say that Israel lost the war.
Israel needs any support that it can get right now
there are some sites like:
http://www.giyus.co.il/
http://winnet.co.il/
http://www.help-israel-win.com/

The last site offers to download a tiny software (it only takes 20mb of memory) that disrupts hamases websites. I downloaded it and its not a virus, so it sounds cool. Check it out.

[CanDo]

Maybe because we are not an islamic terrorist country and never was one?

That is only because Turkey's military keeps you secular, and, so far won't allow you to become an Islamic. According to the polls, Turkey voters would adopt an Islamic Turkey, if allowed to vote on the issue.


Maybe because in Turkey we have a secular education system and we mainly grew up with Ataturk's principles and revolutions?

Do you want to hear more maybies?

You have elected Erdoğan, an Islamist for your leader. How long do you think it is going to be before you are no longer secular, and radical Islam takes over?

[frizzer1]

Maybe It had to be done but hamas has had plenty of time to prepare for a ground invasion.
There could be booby traps everywhere....so I'm very worried that there will be many idf casualties.
I think they should just keep bombing and shelling no matter how long it takes and no matter what the rest of the world says.
But they are now doing it so all we can do is pray that it ends quickly.
And we should pray for the palestinians who don't support Hamas and just want to live their lives and feed their families.

[dayag]

That is only because Turkey's military keeps you secular, and, so far won't allow you to become an Islamic. According to the polls, Turkey voters would adopt an Islamic Turkey, if allowed to vote on the issue.

You have elected an Islamist for your leader. How long do you think it is going to be before you are no longer secular, and radical Islam takes over?

Actually Turkey is pretty evenly divided. The ruling AKP party received less than half (47%) of the vote in 2007. The country could go either way.

[CanDo]

Maybe It had to be done but hamas has had plenty of time to prepare for a ground invasion.
There could be booby traps everywhere....so I'm very worried that there will be many idf casualties.

So am I, worried about our friends in the IDF.

Fortunately, as has been shown in the past, Muslim fighters are not very bright. That is why Islamists do better attacking civilians, and strapping bombs to child suicide bombers, than in warfare against the IDF.


I think they should just keep bombing and shelling no matter how long it takes and no matter what the rest of the world says.

These leaders of Hamas are beasts and ruthless barbarians, who could care less about Palestinian lives, or Palestinian quality of life, or even the lives of the Hamas rank-and-file that is getting killed or injured. They only care about their own skin, that is why they stay underground, in hiding, while they send teenagers out to die in combat against the IDF.

The IDF must go in, in order to neutralize Hamas, or the rockets will keep on terrorizing and traumatizing Israeli towns and villages FOREVER.

[Anatolia]

That is only because Turkey's military keeps you secular, and, so far won't allow you to become an Islamic. According to the polls, Turkey voters would adopt an Islamic Turkey, if allowed to vote on the issue.

Hmmm ok,let's look at the election results in Turkish history..

* 1954 elections= No islamic party

* 1957 elections= No islamic party

* 1961 elections=?

* 1965 elections= Islamists got 6,26% of the votes

* 1969 elections= Islamists got 3,22% of the votes

* 1973 elections= Islamists got 11,80% of the votes

* 1977 elections= Islamists got 8,57% of the votes

* 1983 elections= ?

* 1987 elections= Islamists got 7,16% of the votes

* 1991 elections= Islamists got 16,88% of the votes

* 1995 elections= Islamists got 21,38% of the votes

* 1999 elections= Islamists got 15,41% of the votes while secular parties got about 85% of the votes.


So who keep Turkey secular in those 85 years of Republic? You say only army?

Sure army sees itself as the guardian of the secularism because Ataturk entrusted the republic to Turkish youth first,and than to the army (He was a soldier).But its not only army,I already posted the election results since 1954.


Now if you ask me why AKP was elected in 2002 (and then in 2007),well,there are many factors behind it.Actually we discussed about it a lot on this forum,you can read the previous posts.

And what polls are you talking about? According to latest polls only 9 percent of Turks prefer shariah rule in Turkey.



You have elected an Islamist for your leader. How long do you think it is going to be before you are no longer secular, and radical Islam takes over?

Ok,we will see.

[takeo]

I think Israel can't win this war. Hamas will hide among the population, and there'll be a tremendous number of civilian casualties. I think Hamas got Israel exactly where it wants. They are not capable of running a state or conducting peace-negociations, but they know how to conduct guerilla-warfare against the hated ennemy. In the meanwhile it gets very popular in the Arab world and among Palestinians in the Westbank, who see Abbas as weak leader or even a traitor. In Egypt the position of Mubarak is very difficult. The more casualties the more international condamnation, and sympathy for Hamas, will increase. The less likely a peace-deal between Israel and Abbas will materialise. Already Turkey rethreated from the peace-negociations between Israel and Syria.

Israel could have signed a new peace-deal with Hamas, and in the meanwhile negociate a lasting peace-agreement with Syria and Abbas, which would seriously weaken Hamas. What it's doing now is the contrary. And when Israel will eventually withdraw from Gaza, many IDF-soldiers lost their life, Israel suffered more image-damage, and Hamas will not be defeated,
Netanyahu will get elected, and the peace-proces will be completely abanonded. This in turn will lead to a new ressurrection on the Westbank, and probably war with Hezbollah as well.

The only hope might be Obama, if he is willing to force both Israel and the Arabs back to the negociating table, even if Netanyahu gets elected and Hamas takes over the Westbank. But I'm not sure if he's willing to do that. But if he wants to keep his promise to make peace in the middle east his priority, he has no choice. This means that he'll have to force Israel to compromise concerning Jerusalem, the refugees, and the illegal settlements. It won't be easy with Likud in power. It won't be easy as well to convince the Palestinians and Arab world to make peace with Israel after all those casualties which only increase the hatred against Israel. If there's one who has the capacity, the connections, the power and the means to do it, it's him. Bush' one-sided unilateral approach proved to be desasterous for the peace-proces and for the Middle-East as a whole.

[Turkey]

Hamas Sucx LOL ! :) :D

[Turkey]

Yes most of the people around me is agree with islamist nation's ideads. but dad my uncle . But my Mommy is unagree with islamist. cuz she knows that hamas started fight first !

[codedvirus]

I think Israel can't win this war. Hamas will hide among the population, and there'll be a tremendous number of civilian casualties. I think Hamas got Israel exactly where it wants. They are not capable of running a state or conducting peace-negociations, but they know how to conduct guerilla-warfare against the hated ennemy. In the meanwhile it gets very popular in the Arab world and among Palestinians in the Westbank, who see Abbas as weak leader or even a traitor. In Egypt the position of Mubarak is very difficult. The more casualties the more international condamnation, and sympathy for Hamas, will increase. The less likely a peace-deal between Israel and Abbas will materialise. Already Turkey rethreated from the peace-negociations between Israel and Syria.


True Israel cant win this war.

Israel is more concerned about smuggling of the weapons which are getting more deadly. First they are going to close all the smuggling routes and they will siege some of the rocket launching sites.

Then they will do the talking.

[bararallu]

I think Israel can't win this war.

Er wrong. Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel, and succeeded against nearly all the ME Jews. To qoute Jerry Seinfeld, "we choose not to run." If we went with their program we would win, oh in say half hour or so. Let's not mistake "maybe wont" with "can't".


Hamas will hide among the population, and there'll be a tremendous number of civilian casualties.

Any population that harbors armed combatants, is combatant facilitating; contra to the articles of the Geneva Convention. Any combatant that intentionally hides in a civilian population, uniformed or not, is ethically responsible for all collateral damage.


I think Hamas got Israel exactly where it wants. They are not capable of running a state or conducting peace-negociations, but they know how to conduct guerilla-warfare against the hated ennemy.

The days of the guerrilla fighter will at one point come to an end. Asymmetrical warfare is only as good as the efficacy of the video cameras playing up their head shots. When the stakes are raised, and conventions are tossed out the window, they shall pay the piper. And we have quite a song for them.


In the meanwhile it gets very popular in the Arab world and among Palestinians in the Westbank, who see Abbas as weak leader or even a traitor. In Egypt the position of Mubarak is very difficult.

As if the collapse of Egypt is a bad thing! Nothing the Pharoah does, does he do for Israel. He has his dynasty to secure. That's not our prerogative. Egypt flagrantly abrogated its terms to Camp David on numerous occasions. It installed a trojan horse in Israel with it's own citizens. It has been duplicitous and irredentist, whilst suckling as much money and arms from Uncle Sam as it bloody could. It's collapse would be a win win for the region. I would contribute to a Free Coptic Egypt fund any day of the week.


The more casualties the more international condamnation, and sympathy for Hamas, will increase. The less likely a peace-deal between Israel and Abbas will materialise.

Care factor: 0. At the end of the day we are a nuclear armed state. Want to park your aircraft carrier off our coast? Be my guest. It will be collecting barnacles on it's deck in no time. We're not the same sheep that were collected by the Vichy for Auschwitz.


Already Turkey rethreated from the peace-negociations between Israel and Syria.

A great development. Syria is a poisonous mold that lives at the bottom of everyones shoes. If the Islamist Erdogan winds up with egg on his face so much the better, hopefully that will help get him voted out and secularity re-instated at every level in Turkey.


Israel could have signed a new peace-deal with Hamas, and in the meanwhile negociate a lasting peace-agreement with Syria and Abbas, which would seriously weaken Hamas.

And you can rent a house in Sderot. Nothing will weaken Islamists. They control the agenda. They are funded by your petrodollars and they are armed to the teeth by your friends in Iran.


Netanyahu will get elected, and the peace-proces will be completely abanonded. This in turn will lead to a new ressurrection on the Westbank, and probably war with Hezbollah as well.


Too bad that Netanyahu will be elected, there are better platforms and parties than Likud now days.


The only hope might be Obama,

LOL. A deer in the headlights, weighted down by an immense economic recovery and 2 ongoing armed engagements with a massive amount of logistics to maintain. As he extracates from Iraq, the news there will drown anything else, including this little corner of the Levant.


This means that he'll have to force Israel to compromise concerning Jerusalem, the refugees, and the illegal settlements.

Right, I think we can somewhat compromise on Arabic [all illegal] settlements in Judea and Samaria and Gaza, but we have our red lines. And you're absolutely right we should be all be forced to the table and have the Arabs address nearly 1 million Jewish refugees that they ethnically cleansed from the ME. We're all waiting for that day.

[takeo]

bararallu


Er wrong. Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel, and succeeded against nearly all the ME Jews. To qoute Jerry Seinfeld, "we choose not to run." If we went with their program we would win, oh in say half hour or so. Let's not mistake "maybe wont" wit "can't".

Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable even for the US public opinion. It would force other Arab and muslim leaders, such as Iran and Pakistan, to intervene. It could lead to a giant regional war. And the only winner of such a war would be the extremists of Al-Quaida. Certainly not Israel.






Any population that harbors armed combatants, is combatant facilitating, contra to the articles of the Geneva Convention.

Yes, but Israel on its turn can't indiscriminately destroy civilian locations, even if they get shot from there. That's still a war-crime according to the international tribunal and the Yugoslavia tribunal.


Any combatant that intentionally hides in a civilian, uniformed or not, is ethically responsible for all collateral damage.

In happens all the times. It also happened in Kosovo and Bosnia. Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants.





The days of the guerrilla fighter will at one point come to an end. asymmetrical warfare is only as good as the efficacy of the video cameras playing up their head shots. When the stakes are raised, and conventions are tossed out the window, they shall pay the piper. And we have quite a song for them.

How do you mean? Killing the entire civilian population is a warcrime and not acceptable these days internationally, even if the stakes are raised. if Israel does it (what even the Israeli public opinion won't accept I think) I can't imagine that the US, especially Obama, would still support it. In that case Russia and any nation can refer to it for committing genocide, and the West would definately loose its moral superiority. (already weakened and undermined by Guantanamo).
Especially if the population is helping and providing the fighters, it's very difficult to win any war without genocide.







As if the collapse of Egypt is a bad thing. Nothing the Pharoah does, does he do for Israel. He has his dynasty to secure. That's not our prerogative. Egypt flagrantly abrogated it's terms to Camp David on numerous occasions. It installed a trojan horse in Israel with it's own citizens. It has been duplicitous and irredentist, whilst suckling as much money and arms from Uncle Sam as it bodily could. It's collapse would be a win win for the region. I would contribute to a Free Coptic Egypt fund any day of the week.

:unsure: Are you sure? Because just guess who'll replace Mubarak?
It won't be any copts (10% of the population, most of the by the way baathists and nasserists), the Islamic brotherhood is the most likely candidate. And imagine what they can do do harm Israel, with all those weapons they received from the US. They can arm Hamas to the teeth. It would mean Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in stead of Beersheva... Egypt is also a leading and most populous nation in the Arab world. It can try to unite the Arab world behind an Israeli platform. That means that, for example, like in the 70's, the Arab nations and OPEC (surely aided by Chavez and Russia) can block any oil-sales to countries who support Israel. Israel can reoccupy Sinai, but it can't keep the entire Egypt occupied for long. Also, a nuclear Iran or Pakistan would be more than willing to help their islamist brothers. I think Israel and the US should stick to their puppet-dictator. And that's what they're doing.



Care factor: 0. At the end of the day we are a nuclear armed state. Want to park your aircraft carrier of our coast be my guest. It will be collecting barnacles on it's deck in no time. We're not the same sheep that were collected by the Vichy for Auschwitz.

Noone will not nuke Israel (unless Israel uses nukes first) but they can surely harm Israel, and its allies, in many ways.




A great development. Syria is a poisonous mold that lives at the bottom of everyones shoes.

I see that you don't want peace, not even with secular Syria.
So what do you want, permanent warfare? But sooner or later Arab countries will get devellopped too, and nuclear, sooner or later. So it's very much in Israel's interest to make peace, according to me.





If the Islamist Erdogan winds up with egg on his face so much the better, hopefully that will help get him voted out and secularity re-instated at every level in Turkey.

I don't think so, in France most Turks demonstrated together with Arabs and many French against what's happening in Gaza. By the way Turkey today is much more developped than a few years ago, no more torture, and even the Kurds are getting minority rights. Erdogan is also doing a good job economically, Turkey is booming. I think they'll stay in power.







To bad that Netanyahu will be elected, there are better platforms and parties than Likud now days.

You mean even more extreme and radical? Even more war-minded?



LOL. A deer in the headlights, weighted down by an immense economic recovery and 2 ongoing engagements with a massive amount of logistics to maintain. As he extracates from Iraq, the news there will drown anything else, including this little corner of the Levant.

That's where you're wrong. Obama himself said that peace between Palestinians and Israeli is the key to a recovery of the wider Middle-Eastern region and crucial in the struggle against terrorism, and would be a priority under his administration.





Right, I think we can somewhat compromise on Arabic illegal settlements in Judea and Samaria and Gaza, but we have our read lines. And you're absolutely right we should force us all to the table and have the Arabs address our nearly 1 million in refugees that they ethnically cleansed from the ME.

The red (or rather green) line for the Arabs and the international community is the UN-resolutions . As long as Israel doesn't apply them, and vacate the illegal settlements, there won't be any peace. But I can see you don't care about peace or UN-resolutions. In the meanwhile Israel will be involved in a constant state of war, its young people have to spend years in dangerous military service, its economy suffers under the enormous military spendings, and its civilians will never be completely secure.

Those Jewish refugees are another matter which is not related to the Palestinian question. By the way many if not most Jewish emigration from Arab countries was voluntary. (see wikipedia "Jews in Iraq", "Jews in Morocco", etc.)

[redcake]

Those Jewish refugees are another matter which is not related to the Palestinian question. By the way many if not most Jewish emigration from Arab countries was voluntary. (see wikipedia "Jews in Iraq", "Jews in Morocco", etc.)

You uneducated fool. Is it voluntary when your assets are frozen, and citizenship revoked, or you're forced to live in a "protective" ghetto ???
H'bout you read the Wikis instead of just reference them?

(and where is Andak: the Moroccan Hype Man to step in now and post about the difference in Jewish flight from Iraq and Morocco? )

[Yala]

Takeo is right about one thing. This ground invasion was dumb. 4 soldiers are dead already and that is 4 too many. They are not going to stop Hamas or stop their smuggling. I believe this was conducted to get Livni and Barak elected, but they will fail b/c Netanyahu will still win.

[Rob]

Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants.


It is warcrime! Don´t try to make excuses for these executions.

[Yala]

Don't mind takeo. He is a big fan of communism and Russia, therefore he will defend all their allies such as Serbia and Iran.

[Mil]

Mama Russia already playing with gas supplies. Might be a Cold Winter for Euros.

[Mil]

When Putin was asked about Russian use of CLUSTER munitions against Georgian civilians his response was classic:

"What should we have shot at the Georgians with? Slingshots?"

[takeo]

When Putin was asked about Russian use of CLUSTER munitions against Georgian civilians his response was classic:

"What should we have shot at the Georgians with? Slingshots?"

Georgia used cluster bombs as well, so does Israel at this very moment.

[takeo]

Mama Russia already playing with gas supplies. Might be a Cold Winter for Euros.

If Ukraine doesn't want to be a Russian ally, it should pay market prices and not expect Russian subsidies or gifts.
If it doesn't want to or can not pay market prices, gas gets shut. That's life, that's free market. Today Ukraine pays only half of the market price, like Belarus and some other CIS-states.
Anyway, Iuchtchenko's reign and Ukrainian sufferings will be shortlived. According to polls he would receive 3% of the Ukrainian votes today. Big winners would be Russia's allies Timoshenko and Iukanovich. Ukrainians are sick and tired of him, and his own prime minister accused him of corruption and bad management.

[takeo]

Don't mind takeo. He is a big fan of communism and Russia, therefore he will defend all their allies such as Serbia and Iran.

I'm not defending Iran, did you read my posts?
About Serbia, I only referred to it because Serbs are considered warcriminals because they didn't make a distinction between combatants and civilians when bombing villages according to many NGO's. Israel today is not making a distinction between combatants and civilians according to many NGO's. So if Serb leaders are warcriminals, so are Israel's leaders.

[takeo]

It is warcrime! Don´t try to make excuses for these executions.

So what Israel is doing right now in Gaza is not a warcrime? What's the difference? Bosnian combatants too were hiding among civilians, just like Hamas. And Serbs, just like Israel, used this as a reason for the high civilian casualties and indiscriminate bombings of villages and cities, for which many Serbs have been convicted.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

Georgia used cluster bombs as well, so does Israel at this very moment.

Source please. On both Georgia then and Israel right now.



If Ukraine doesn't want to be a Russian ally, it should pay market prices and not expect Russian subsidies or gifts.

Or if Russia wants Ukraine to be it's puppet then... you know. It all depends on how you look at it. Even Luka got upset with Papa Putin. But why are you so worried? Hamas was shooting at Israel and you accuse it of using cluster bombs in Gaza but when Russia plays Ukranian politics than it's normal. Good one.

If it doesn't want to or can not pay market prices, gas gets shut. That's life, that's free market. Today Ukraine pays only half of the market price, like Belarus and some other CIS-states.

There were agreements on that. Anyways - this has nothing to do with market prices but more with Russia playing Ukranian politics. Putin has nothing better to do.


Anyway, Iuchtchenko's reign and Ukrainian sufferings will be shortlived. According to polls he would receive 3% of the Ukrainian votes today. Big winners would be Russia's allies Timoshenko and Iukanovich. Ukrainians are sick and tired of him, and his own prime minister accused him of corruption and bad management.

It's Yanukovich and Yuschenko (his wife is from Des Plaines - a suburb 30 minutes from my house:). At least learn some Russian or Ukranian. And Timoshenko is no Russian ally (and she is cute too :)

Anyways - the issue is that Papa Putin is turning the gas off in the middle of a winter to the millions of Ukranian children, women and the elderly (and we all know about Russian and Ukranian winters). We know why. But southern Europe also got affected... unfortunately.

Actually Russia did this before.... a few years back, also during the winter, when Ukraine had its elections.

[bararallu]

Posted by Takeo:

Georgia used cluster bombs as well, so does Israel at this very moment.

Source please. On both Georgia then and Israel right now.



If Ukraine doesn't want to be a Russian ally, it should pay market prices and not expect Russian subsidies or gifts.

Or if Russia wants Ukraine to be it's puppet then... you know. It all depends on how you look at it. Even Luka got upset with Papa Putin. But why are you so worried? Hamas was shooting at Israel and you accuse it of using cluster bombs in Gaza but when Russia plays Ukranian politics than it's normal. Good one.

If it doesn't want to or can not pay market prices, gas gets shut. That's life, that's free market. Today Ukraine pays only half of the market price, like Belarus and some other CIS-states.

There were agreements on that. Anyways - this has nothing to do with market prices but more with Russia playing Ukranian politics. Putin has nothing better to do.


Anyway, Iuchtchenko's reign and Ukrainian sufferings will be shortlived. According to polls he would receive 3% of the Ukrainian votes today. Big winners would be Russia's allies Timoshenko and Iukanovich. Ukrainians are sick and tired of him, and his own prime minister accused him of corruption and bad management.

It's Yanukovich and Yuschenko (his wife is from Des Plaines - a suburb 30 minutes from my house:). At least learn some Russian or Ukranian. And Timoshenko is no Russian ally (and she is cute too :)

Anyways - the issue is that Papa Putin is turning the gas off in the middle of a winter to the millions of Ukranian children, women and the elderly (and we all know about Russian and Ukranian winters). We know why. But southern Europe also got affected... unfortunately.

Actually Russia did this before.... a few years back, also during the winter, when Ukraine had its elections.

The old soviet union is guilty of a war crime, being party to the fabrication of Palestine, and the prorogation of hate and prosecution of Jews in their native land through proxies. I think Putin who was party to some of that no doubt should be tried in the ICJ.

[Mil]

I don't even care. That part of the world interests me little.

[bararallu]

Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable even for the US public opinion.

What genocide? I'm referring to ethnic cleansing. Reciprocity like there was between Greece and Turkey.


It would force other Arab and muslim leaders, such as Iran and Pakistan, to intervene. It could lead to a giant regional war. And the only winner of such a war would be the extremists of Al-Quaida. Certainly not Israel.

It definitely wont be France. Who knows you may just getaway with a burned out car...hmmm on second thought probably your house too.


Yes, but Israel on its turn can't indiscriminately destroy civilian locations, even if they get shot from there. That's still a war-crime according to the international tribunal and the Yugoslavia tribunal.

Reference please. Were the French brought up on war charges regarding their half a dozen military actions since WW2? Since sure as S* they must of shot up quite a few building in their day. Were the British and the Americans brought up on charges related to the bombing of Dresden? Hiroshima? Where the Soviets brought up on their siege of Berlin, where they bombed and shelled indiscriminately? There are no statues of limitations as far as I know in the ICJ/UN. Furthermore, non uniformed combatants can be terminated with extreme prejudice anywhere, anytime and with any weapon. If a substantial population is firing and are not wearing uniform it is reasonable to level the lot and incur collateral damage. Israel advertises the places it bombs and uses smart munitions on top of that, both self defeating economically and strategically. So the burden of proof is on you from an number of perspectives.


In happens all the times. It also happened in Kosovo and Bosnia. Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants.

Not my concern at the moment. I have family being bombed, do you? I have to report for duty, do you?


How do you mean? Killing the entire civilian population is a warcrime and not acceptable these days internationally,

First of all see above regarding "genocide". You know what happens when you assume.. ass+u+me ;). Second of all, "acceptable... internationally" hahahaha!!!!! nice one. Man put down that Das Capital or your going to kill us with laughter. No one cares about your internationally. Internationally put us in ovens, it buried my relatives alive in some Romanian field. You can enjoy your internationally, we'll stick by our guts and our rather large guns.


even if the stakes are raised. if Israel does it (what even the Israeli public opinion won't accept I think) I can't imagine that the US, especially Obama, would still support it. In that case Russia and any nation can refer to it for committing genocide, and the West would definately loose its moral superiority. (already weakened and undermined by Guantanamo).

No body actually cares. Nobody outside some leftist little cliques gives a rats arse about "Guantanamo", and the epically failed humans that are interned there. And FYI- the West is capable of mounting the greatest carnage on this planet, and there are absolutely no moral scruples that will deter nations from smashing their adversaries when they are, e.g., being shelled daily. You are living in a fantasy land. To bad your parents where assigned to France, Birobidgan would have been better!


Especially if the population is helping and providing the fighters, it's very difficult to win any war without genocide.


I don't know, how did the Russians win in Chechnya? Fill us in.


:unsure: Are you sure? Because just guess who'll replace Mubarak?
It won't be any copts (10% of the population, most of the by the way baathists and nasserists), the Islamic brotherhood is the most likely candidate.

All the better, they'll paint a huge target on that wasteland. The Copts can come to Israel anytime, and stay here till the dust settles.


And imagine what they can do do harm Israel, with all those weapons they received from the US. They can arm Hamas to the teeth. It would mean Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in stead of Beersheva... Egypt is also a leading and most populous nation in the Arab world.

Read my lips: we would obliterate it in 8 hours. They are losers, their lot in life is to lose.


It can try to unite the Arab world behind an Israeli platform. That means that, for example, like in the 70's, the Arab nations and OPEC (surely aided by Chavez and Russia) can block any oil-sales to countries who support Israel. Israel can reoccupy Sinai, but it can't keep the entire Egypt occupied for long.

We definitely will take the Sinai back, if they attack and we will keep it. I don't think there will be much to occupy after the dust settles.


Also, a nuclear Iran or Pakistan would be more than willing to help their islamist brothers. I think Israel and the US should stick to their puppet-dictator. And that's what they're doing.


They'll sooner Nuke each other than us. Their support of Arab causes (esp the Iranians) is only skin deep.


Noone will not nuke Israel (unless Israel uses nukes first) but they can surely harm Israel, and its allies, in many ways.

We'll see about that. I bet they systematically hang themselves first. When the petrodollars dry up they will revert to caravan banditry with wooden scimitars like the old days.


I see that you don't want peace, not even with secular Syria.

Syria is a fascist anti-Semitc state. I don't believe in peace with Dictatorships generally. Jordan is my only current exception and that is pretty much fully mired in realpolitick. Syria is the single biggest spigot for terrorism in the ME after Iran and Saudi Arabia. I further dont believe in making peace with terrorist states.


So what do you want, permanent warfare? But sooner or later Arab countries will get devellopped too, and nuclear, sooner or later. So it's very much in Israel's interest to make peace, according to me.

Thats then and we can deal with then later. States get sober with MADs especially when there are a 10000 warheads pointing at them.


I don't think so, in France most Turks demonstrated together with Arabs and many French against what's happening in Gaza. By the way Turkey today is much more developped than a few years ago, no more torture, and even the Kurds are getting minority rights. Erdogan is also doing a good job economically, Turkey is booming. I think they'll stay in power.

The Islamist regime is not supported by any Turk I know, including every single Turk on this forum, nor any Turk I know personally (and thats quite a few actually).


You mean even more extreme and radical? Even more war-minded?

No more realistic. That don't buy into the cheat called "two state solution". We believe that the fakistinians should be repatriated to Egypt and Jordan respectively. With or without a territorial re-partition. The PLO are no better than the Hamas in our book.


That's where you're wrong. Obama himself said that peace between Palestinians and Israeli is the key to a recovery of the wider Middle-Eastern region and crucial in the struggle against terrorism, and would be a priority under his administration.

LOL. Yeah priority when the world economy is bleeding like an ocean flowing. When Iraq will explode like a tinder box the minute the Americans board their planes. He wont even deal with the Saudis much less with anything else.


The red (or rather green) line for the Arabs and the international community is the UN-resolutions . As long as Israel doesn't apply them, and vacate the illegal settlements, there won't be any peace. But I can see you don't care about peace or UN-resolutions.


The UN is a fundamentally anti-Semitic organization why should I? I advocate Israel immediately leaving the UN and forming another all democratic and capitalistic world forum for like minded nations.


In the meanwhile Israel will be involved in a constant state of war, its young people have to spend years in dangerous military service, its economy suffers under the enormous military spendings, and its civilians will never be completely secure.

Thanks to your Arab, Soviet and Iranian friends (and Jewish pradateli) thats very true.


Those Jewish refugees are another matter which is not related to the Palestinian question. By the way many if not most Jewish emigration from Arab countries was voluntary. (see wikipedia "Jews in Iraq", "Jews in Morocco", etc.)


Right and the Holocaust never happened either? You should consult with a fellow traveller scottishlady on the other thread.

To you thats another issue. To the majority of us self respecting Jews that is THE issue. You know if I show up at your house with an AK and ask you to leave will that also be voluntary?

[takeo]

=Mil




Source please. On both Georgia then and Israel right now.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052331.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/01/georgia.russia?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

It's strange that you know about Russian cluster bombs but not about Georgian or Israeli cluster bombs. And this on Israel forum. This selective information is peculiar, isn't it? Anyway, we're on topic again, GAZA.





Or if Russia wants Ukraine to be it's puppet then... you know. It all depends on how you look at it.

no, it doesn't. Russia has the right to demand market prices to Ukraine, don't you think so? Is that a crime?




Even Luka got upset with Papa Putin.

Yes, Russia demanded higher prices. Why should Russia subsidise Ukraine and Belarus? But today Russia and Belarus settled their problem, Ukrain didn't.




But why are you so worried? Hamas was shooting at Israel and you accuse it of using cluster bombs in Gaza but when Russia plays Ukranian politics than it's normal.

Russia is not using cluster bombs in Ukraine, it's just demanding market price for its gas. I think you can't compare those two policies. At all.



There were agreements on that.

Which ones, any source?


Anyways - this has nothing to do with market prices but more with Russia playing Ukranian politics. Putin has nothing better to do.

How do you know? That's just interpretation. The mere fact is that Ukraine doesn't want to pay market price for Russian gas. Of course if Ukraine were a Russian ally, Russia could have accepted a lesser price. The US too favors allies with commercial, financial and other benefits. But it isn't, it didn't act like a Russian ally.



It's Yanukovich and Yuschenko (his wife is from Des Plaines - a suburb 30 minutes from my house:). At least learn some Russian or Ukranian. And Timoshenko is no Russian ally (and she is cute too :)

That's the French phonetical writing. I can't write cyrillic with my laptop. Do you speak Ukrainian or Belarussian?


Timoshenko is still popular in western Ukraine, Ianoukovitch in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. Iouchtchenko nowhere. Iouchtchenko accused her of being a Russian spy becauuse she didn't want to side with Georgia and the US during the latest war in Ossetia. She asked him to step down. She is kind of cute, that's true.




Anyways - the issue is that Papa Putin is turning the gas off in the middle of a winter to the millions of Ukranian children, women and the elderly (and we all know about Russian and Ukranian winters). We know why.

If Ukraine would pay market prices, they wouldn't be cold now. Anyway, Ukraine still has reserves, but of course too bad. They wanted to be a western ally, so if they don't have money why don't they ask the US to help them? And if they feel really cold, maybe next elections they'll remember it, that their president was not capable even of providing gas.

Israel is doing worse. Israel not only cut gas for months but everything else.



But southern Europe also got affected... unfortunately.

Because Ukraine couldn't pay the bills, they also cut the lines to countries who do and can pay the bills. That's illegal economic blackmail. Europe and Russia are constructing lines to avoid Ukraine, such as trough the Baltic sea.





Actually Russia did this before.... a few years back, also during the winter, when Ukraine had its elections.

Yes, they finally agreed that prices would go up gradually. But Ukraine now has very big economical problems, and can't follow up on its promises.

[Mil]

Such a Russian we have :) A humanitarian!

I speak, read, and understand Russian, Ukranian, and Belorrusian a lot better then you :)

[takeo]

The old soviet union is guilty of a war crime, being party to the fabrication of Palestine, and the prorogation of hate and prosecution of Jews in their native land through proxies. I think Putin who was party to some of that no doubt should be tried in the ICJ.

Putin should be tried for not serving American and Israeli interests? I see...

How on earth do you relate Putin (or the Soviets) to the persecution of Jews in tsarist Russia?????????


So now you think it's a crime to defend the interests of a people that has been persecuted, occupied and banned from their native land by another people that equally suffered from persecution in the past? That's quite extreme, really. I never even said it's a crime to defend Israel or even the US. Eventough these nations committed warcrimes. And I'm sure you also think that Palestinians should be evicted from Palestine, or massacred. And I'm sure you don't think that's a warcrime... you people are really FAR off.
Some people in Europe say they just can't understand how people got to vote for Bush, or how some Israeli can vote for Likud. I invite them to have a look on this forum and see for themselves... anyway, last elections in the US proved that at least in the US there is some sanity left, not all people are nuts.

[Yala]

So just to clarity: The US and Israel are committing war crimes yet Russia is a liberal democracy who never violates "international law?" Personally, I don't deny that war crimes are committed in every war, and even by the west. Sometimes it's unavoidable. Really, this is common sense, rather than some stupid competition like "my country is better (or more moral) than yours."

If Russia used cluster bombs against the Georgian civilians,, which Putin admitted, then you really don't have a leg to stand on here condemning Israel while excusing Russia.


you people are really FAR off.

Yes, our views are very far off from yours. That's why it's good that you are in Europe and we are not.


Some people in Europe say they just can't understand how people got to vote for Bush, or how some Israeli can vote for Likud. I invite them to have a look on this forum and see for themselves... anyway, last elections in the US proved that at least in the US there is some sanity left, not all people are nuts.

And we don't understand how Europeans elected Hitler but ce'st la vie. Furthermore, if you think Obama is going to be the second coming of Chirac or similar to other European leaders you are seriously mistaken. Look at his cabinet so far. According to your "standards" (or lack thereof) they are right wing fascists.

[bararallu]

War is a crime in itself. To have "war crime" is pretty much redundant. Chivalry, as encompassed in the modern conventions of war, is premised on reciprocity. Our enemies don't have any problems murdering, raping and ethnically cleansing our civilians so the standing questions is should we be more careful or not? The ethics are bottom line quid pro quo, and have been since the rise of man on this mud ball. That said, if we all agree on that principle that all war is criminal or bad, it's then prudent to identify the main causes & maintenance of said war. I posit the following causal and extensive reasons for the endless war that embroils Israel.

0. Nazi intervention in the ME (Aside from the Mufti there are still Nazis in Syria and probably still in Egypt too, Mein Kamph is a best seller to this day); the Arabs modeled their "secularism" on the Nazi party- our friend from France conveniently forgets that (and their mass murder and their terrorism).
1. Traditional Arab chauvinism, irredentism and illogic
2. Islamic replacement theology
3. Soviet and Egyptian fabrication of a Palestinian Nationality
4. Western Leftist apologetics and whitewashing of Arab intentions and action (note up-tread where Jewish ethnic cleansing is fully excused and poopooed)
5. Iranian gambit to work up the Arab street in it's continued regional cold war with the Sunnis

[takeo]

bararallu


What genocide? I'm referring to ethnic cleansing. Reciprocity like there was between Greece and Turkey.

Millions of people died during the wars in the Balcans, Jews were evicted from Saloniki. Hardly a good example. Do you think Europe should do the same too and evict Jews, Arabs and all non-Europeans? And the US evicting all non white Americans? It's insanity. I can't understand how a Jew can defend such fascist, downright nazi, ideas.
Besides that, today there isn't a Palestinian state, and Israel is even building Jewish settlements in occupied Palestinian land, not recognised as part of Israel by the international community (including the US)






It definitely wont be France. Who knows you may just getaway with a burned out car...hmmm on second thought probably your house too.

If Israel gets extreme and commits largescale ethnic cleansing, Europe will cut its relations with Israel and end trade. Europe is Israel's largest trading partner. Already some politicians are proposing that right now. As the media reports about more cruelty in Gaza, the mood is definately changing and getting more hostile to Israel. (and now I 'm sure you going to rant about anti-semitism, Vichy, nazi, blablabla just because Europe condamns the kind of horrors that happened in Gaza!)





Reference please.

oh come on you know well enough that Serbs have been convicted for the indiscriminate shellings and bombings of Sarajevo and Vukuvar for example.


for example:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f24_1197521310




Were the French brought up on war charges regarding their half a dozen military actions since WW2? Since sure as S* they must of shot up quite a few building in their day. Were the British and the Americans brought up on charges related to the bombing of Dresden? Hiroshima? Where the Soviets brought up on their siege of Berlin, where they bombed and shelled indiscriminately?

All these were warcrimes. that's right. But these happened in another age. Today, war crimes are no longer accepted. Or do you think the verdict against people such as Milosevic and Karadzic were unjust?






There are no statues of limitations as far as I know in the ICJ/UN. Furthermore, non uniformed combatants can be terminated with extreme prejudice anywhere, anytime and with any weapon.

Yes, but indiscriminately bombing is not only or even mainly killing combatants. According to NGO's, the most victims in Gaza are civilians.





If a substantial population is firing and are not wearing uniform it is reasonable to level the lot and incur collateral damage.

purposely conflicting collateral damage and targetting non-firing civilians is a warcrime.



Israel advertises the places it bombs and uses smart munitions on top of that, both self defeating economically and strategically. So the burden of proof is on you from an number of perspectives.

So how come so many civilians died? and if so, why are reporters not permitted to enter the Gaza-strip and see for theselves?




Not my concern at the moment. I have family being bombed, do you? I have to report for duty, do you?

No. But that doesn't give anyone the right to commit warcrimes. Serbs too have been killed and bombed during the war. By the way 700 Gazans have died so far, how many Israely?

[takeo]

First of all see above regarding "genocide". You know what happens when you assume.. ass+u+me ;).

Ethnic cleansing would amount to genocide. It's just the same, because Palestinians would not move voluntarily, soldiers would have to shoot them and then move them. By the way if ethnic cleansing doesn't amount to genocide, why is Hamas accused of wanting genocide? It never said anywhere it wants to kill all Jews or Israeli. It said it wants to destroy the state of Israel.







Second of all, "acceptable... internationally" hahahaha!!!!! nice one. Man put down that Das Capital or your going to kill us with laughter. No one cares about your internationally. Internationally put us in ovens, it buried my relatives alive in some Romanian field. You can enjoy your internationally, we'll stick by our guts and our rather large guns.

The UN was exactly created to avoid such tragedies from happening again. So what you're saying is that I can put my UN-declarations in my a....
OK, fine, in that case there's no international order, any nation does as it pleases. The strongest wins. If Russia tomorrow decides to occupy Georgia and Ukraine forever and ethnically cleanse all non-Russians, that's just fine, right? And we should just disband all international tribunals and free everyone convicted for warcrimes, ok? What you don't understand is that the fact that your relatives had suffered tremendous suffering during WWII doesn't give you the right to do as you please. Even the mere fact that you use the Holocaust as an argument to defend such kind of actions gives a bad taste in my mouth.










No body actually cares. Nobody outside some leftist little cliques gives a rats arse about "Guantanamo",

The elected president does, he'll close it. And many other famous and powerfull Americans declared that it was a terrible blow for the image of the US as a nations which values human rights and justice.


And FYI- the West is capable of mounting the greatest carnage on this planet, and there are absolutely no moral scruples that will deter nations from smashing their adversaries when they are, e.g., being shelled daily. You are living in a fantasy land.

The West can do so, and France did so during the Algeria war, GB, Belgium etc. did so in their colonies. But in that case they have absolutely no right to criticise Russia or China over Tibet, Chechnia, whatever, or go on ranting about human rights and so on.
Besides, the West can't just attack Russia or China or any of their proxy states, it would mean mutually assured destruction.
And furthermore there's no equivalence. Israel isn't the morally superior party here. They have illegally occupied Palestine for decades and still do so.





To bad your parents where assigned to France, Birobidgan would have been better!

I've been there 6 years ago, not such a bad place, in summer time at least.




I don't know, how did the Russians win in Chechnya? Fill us in.

And how did the Western media scream that Russia was committing warcrimes? But Chechens today are equal citizens of the Russian Federation living in a republic with large autonomy.
Palestinians are not living in a part of Israel, nor Israeli citizens. That makes this conflict an international one.




All the better, they'll paint a huge target on that wasteland. The Copts can come to Israel anytime, and stay here till the dust settles.

Let's see what happens if Israel destroys Caire. In that case I'm sure the whole muslim world will join in, including some nuclear nations. It only needs two nukes to bomb the most important parts of Israel. And I'm sure the US is not going to risk Arab oil either for Israel, on which the world economy relies.






Read my lips: we would obliterate it in 8 hours. They are losers, their lot in life is to lose.

In 1973 they nearly won. And they have oil, and can and will use it as a tool against Israel if the situation escalates. (which it certainly will with the kind of policy you proposes)



We definitely will take the Sinai back, if they attack and we will keep it. I don't think there will be much to occupy after the dust settles.

It means permanent war with a nation of 80 million people, not the same like the few million Palestinians armed with homemade rockets. And it almost certainly also means war with the rest of the Arab world. It means any remaining Israeli ally will be cut from Arab oil. I don't think a nation of a few million people can sustain a war like that for long. And it remains to be seen how the US will react. It is in the US best interests to keep good relations with the Gulf states. I'm sure Obama and many others would disapprove, and Israel totally relies on US support for survival. If US says "no", Israel listens.

[takeo]

They'll sooner Nuke each other than us. Their support of Arab causes (esp the Iranians) is only skin deep.

perhaps not (as long as Israel doesn't use them first), but they will certainly join in the war. They already do somehow, it is Iran which provides Hamas and Hezbollah with weapons and money. They can do it on a much larger scale. Is Israel capable of winning against Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. together?




We'll see about that. I bet they systematically hang themselves first. When the petrodollars dry up they will revert to caravan banditry with wooden scimitars like the old days.

but it won't dry up anytime soon. And in the meanwhile the world economy relies heavily upon it.






Syria is a fascist anti-Semitc state. I don't believe in peace with Dictatorships generally.

This is a bunch of cr$p, if it's not islamist or communist it's fascist right? Israel made peace with Egypt and Jordan, both dictatorships. Just admit that you don't want to give back the stolen Golan heights.





Jordan is my only current exception and that is pretty much fully mired in realpolitick. Syria is the single biggest spigot for terrorism in the ME after Iran and Saudi Arabia.

more nonsense, Syria is combatting Al-quaida, none of the 11/9 hijackers came from Syria as far as I know. Besides the US too financed terrorism. It did so in Afghanistan during the 80's. Those same guys, stuffed with taxpayers money, later turned against the US.




I further dont believe in making peace with terrorist states.

You don't believe in peace. You believe in war, just like Netanyahu and George Bush. And we all see the results. Obama wants to negociate with Iran and Syria. I believe that's the right strategy.





Thats then and we can deal with then later. States get sober with MADs especially when there are a 10000 warheads pointing at them.

But I'm sure Israel will not use them either for the same reason.




The Islamist regime is not supported by any Turk I know, including every single Turk on this forum, nor any Turk I know personally (and thats quite a few actually).

Well, they win every (free and fair) election so far.




No more realistic. That don't buy into the cheat called "two state solution". We believe that the fakistinians should be repatriated to Egypt and Jordan respectively. With or without a territorial re-partition. The PLO are no better than the Hamas in our book.

You believe in ethnic cleansing, we know already. But that is not realistic for all the reasons I exposed above. It is a certain recipe for loosing American support and the destruction of Israel. Not even Netanyahu will go that far.

The only realistic solution is a two-state solution. Only problem is how to deal with the extremists who want it all for themselves (on both sides.) That will be a big challenge for Obama.






LOL. Yeah priority when the world economy is bleeding like an ocean flowing.

Another Bush-legacy. The world economy will bleed even more if oil supply from the Middle East gets endangered, or when a massive regional war erupts.



When Iraq will explode like a tinder box the minute the Americans board their planes.

That's part of the legacy of G. W. Bush. But somehow I think the departure of the Americans will help establish peace in Iraq. The shiites are the strongest, they'll win, the army is theirs, with the help of Iran of course. That's why they want the Americans out.



He wont even deal with the Saudis much less with anything else.

let's see.



The UN is a fundamentally anti-Semitic organization why should I?

antisemite because they condamned Israel for illegal occupation and colonisation? So the UN is equally an anti-Arab organisation since they condamned the invasion of Kouweit by Sadam?




I advocate Israel immediately leaving the UN and forming another all democratic and capitalistic world forum for like minded nations.

Like whom? Except the US and a few mini states Israel has little friends.
During the last vote about Gaza only 7 nations supported Israel.



Thanks to your Arab, Soviet and Iranian friends (and Jewish pradateli) thats very true.

no thanks to your own leaders who want a Greater Israel, rather than peace.



Right and the Holocaust never happened either? You should consult with a fellow traveller scottishlady on the other thread.
self respecting Jews that is THE issue. You know if I show up at your house with an AK and ask you to leave will that also be voluntary?

Iraq FORBADE emigration.

Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state.
By 1949, the Iraqi Zionist underground had become well-established (despite many arrests), and they were smuggling Iraqi Jews out of the country illegally at a rate of 1,000 a month (Simon, Reguer, and Laskier, p 365). Hoping to stem the flow of assets from the country, in March 1950 Iraq passed a law of one year duration allowing Jews to emigrate on condition of relinquishing their Iraqi citizenship. They were motivated, according to Ian Black, by "economic considerations, chief of which was that almost all the property of departing Jews reverted to the state treasury" and also that "Jews were seen as a restive and potentially troublesome minority that the country was best rid of." (p.91) Israel was initially reluctant to absorb so many immigrants, (Hillel, 1987) but eventually mounted an airlift operation in March of 1951 called "Ezra and Nehemiah" to bring as many of the Iraqi Jews as possible to Israel, and sent agents to Iraq to urge the Jews to register for immigration as soon as possible.

From the start of the emigration law in March 1950 until the end of the year, 60,000 Jews registered to leave Iraq. In addition to continuing arrests and the dismissal of Jews from their jobs, this exodus was encouraged by a series of bombings starting in April 1950 that resulted in a number of injuries and a few deaths. Two months before the expiry of the law, by which time about 85,000 Jews had registered, another bomb at the Masuda Shemtov synagogue killed 3 or 5 Jews and injured many others. The law expired in March 1951 but was later extended after the Iraqi government froze the assets of departing Jews, including those who had already left. During the next few months, all but a few thousand of the remaining Jews registered for emigration, spurred on by a sequence of further bombings that caused few casualties but had great psychological impact. In Operation Ezra and Nehemiah, some 120,000 Jews were airlifted to Israel via Iran and Cyprus.

The true identity and objective of the masterminds behind the bombings has been the subject of controversy. A secret Israeli inquiry in 1960 found no evidence that they were ordered by Israel or any motive that would have explained the attack, though it did find out that most of the witnesses believed that Jews had been responsible for the bombings.[8] The issue remains unresolved: Iraqi activists still regularly charge that Israel used violence to engineer the exodus, while Israeli officials of the time vehemently deny it.[9] Historian Moshe Gat reports that "the belief that the bombs had been thrown by Zionist agents was shared by those Iraqi Jews who had just reached Israel".[10] Sociologist Phillip Mendes backs Gat's claims, and further attributes the allegations to have been influenced and distorted by feelings of discrimination.[11] Journlist Naemi Giladi's position that the bombings were "perpetrated by Zionist agents in order to cause fear amongst the Jews, and so promote their exodus to Israel" is shared by a number of anti-Zionist authors, including the Israeli Black Panthers (1975), David Hirst (1977), Wilbur Crane Eveland (1980), Uri Avnery (1988), Ella Shohat (1986), Abbas Shiblak (1986), Marion Wolfsohn (1980), and Rafael Shapiro (1984). In his article, Giladi notes that this was also the conclusion of Wilbur Crane Eveland, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) who outlined that allegation in his book "Ropes of Sand".

The affair has also been the subject of a libel lawsuit by Mordechai Ben Porat, which was settled in an out-of-court compromise with an apology of the journalist who described the charges as true.

Iraqi authorities eventually charged three members of the Zionist underground with perpetrating some of the explosions. Two of those charged, Shalom Salah Shalom and Yosef Ibrahim Basri, were subsequently found guilty and executed, whilst the third was sentenced to a lengthy jail term. Salah Shalom claimed in his trial that he was tortured into confessing, and Yosef Basri maintained his innocence throughout.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq

[takeo]

So just to clarity: The US and Israel are committing war crimes yet Russia is a liberal democracy who never violates "international law?" Personally, I don't deny that war crimes are committed in every war, and even by the west. Sometimes it's unavoidable. Really, this is common sense, rather than some stupid competition like "my country is better (or more moral) than yours."

If Russia used cluster bombs against the Georgian civilians,, which Putin admitted, then you really don't have a leg to stand on here condemning Israel while excusing Russia.



Yes, our views are very far off from yours. That's why it's good that you are in Europe and we are not.



And we don't understand how Europeans elected Hitler but ce'st la vie. Furthermore, if you think Obama is going to be the second coming of Chirac or similar to other European leaders you are seriously mistaken. Look at his cabinet so far. According to your "standards" (or lack thereof) they are right wing fascists.

G.W. Bush constantly said that Russia and China don't charish the principles of a free society based on human rights. So you admit that just hypocisy?
I never said Russia is a liberal democracy that never violates international law. However your leaders claim that their countries are so.
I don't criticise Israel for using cluster bombs, mill started to criticise Russia for doing so. Cluster bombs do harm a lot of innocent civilians, but as long as other states use them, they are legal. Personally I'm not a favor of any international tribunal as long as some states escape justice. Justice is only justice if it applies to all equally. The tribunals that exist today are politically motivated, such as the Yugoslavia tribunal.
However that 's NOT the opinion of the US leadership or mainstream public opinion in the US.

About the views, I think Obama's views concerning the Middle East, Russia, Latin America, economics and social security are very similar to the mainstream Western European politics. He hired some people from the Clinton-administration (which was also much closer to Europe compared to the Bush-administration), but basically he's the one in charge.

[varian]

The history of European imperialism offers a much better study of man's inhumanity towards man. For France Indochina would serve as a good example (glass house scenario).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina

Of course some wanker-breathed hose brains in the US thought that it would be a good idea to continue in the folly. All of the previous 'Indochina' nations are independent and doing just fine without the meddling of either the US or France, and none of those countries ever fired a hostile volley on either's homeland to merit a hostile response by either the US or France. It's a very different scenario in the Israel/Gaza situation.

[bararallu]

Millions of people died during the wars in the Balcans, Jews were evicted from Saloniki.

The Holocaust took care of the Jews in Solonika.


Hardly a good example. Do you think Europe should do the same too and evict Jews, Arabs and all non-Europeans?


When they boot your parents for spying that will be a nice thing indeed. Generally, it's their party and I'm not invited. I dont personally care if they do or dont. I think they already boot select people and that will increase and baloon at some point. Mostly because people on the left (such as yourself) inherently allowed the hard right so much pendulum vacillation with your immigration policies.


And the US evicting all non white Americans? It's insanity.

North and South America and Australia/NZ are multinational states, fundamentally different from France or Germany, historically and presently.



I can't understand how a Jew can defend such fascist, downright nazi, ideas.

Are you looking in the mirror mayhaps?


Besides that, today there isn't a Palestinian state, and Israel is even building Jewish settlements in occupied Palestinian land, not recognised as part of Israel by the international community (including the US)

Here's one for you: I do not accept the notion of "Palestinian land". Hebrew soil is Hebrew soil. period. Theologically motivated and proven genocidal historic brigands and their shallow geopolitical claims, at that augmented by both Nazis and Communists, are outside my ken to assimilate, much less respect.


If Israel gets extreme and commits largescale ethnic cleansing, Europe will cut its relations with Israel and end trade.

I doubt that. Europe has trade with Russia which ethnically cleansed and committed a genocide in Chechnya. Committed war crimes in Georgia. Ditto China, ditto 90% of the African and former colonial countries. Realpolitik rules the day not your shoddy concepts of truth to power nonsense.


As the media reports about more cruelty in Gaza, the mood is definately changing and getting more hostile to Israel. (and now I 'm sure you going to rant about anti-semitism, Vichy, nazi, blablabla just because Europe condamns the kind of horrors that happened in Gaza!)

How about addressing my actual questions, bla bla bla


oh come on you know well enough that Serbs have been convicted for the indiscriminate shellings and bombings of Sarajevo and Vukuvar for example.

Your loosing the plot of this conversation... This is the Israel Forum not the Balkan Forum FYI.


Yes, but indiscriminately bombing is not only or even mainly killing combatants. According to NGO's, the most victims in Gaza are civilians.

Lies and the Lying liars that tell them. How's that Comintern protocol working out for you?


purposely conflicting collateral damage and targetting non-firing civilians is a warcrime.

Prove purposefulness. Prove "targeting non firing civilians". And FYI, all you have to do is carry a recognizable weapon in the GC to be legally fired upon, thanks for playing.


So how come so many civilians died? and if so, why are reporters not permitted to enter the Gaza-strip and see for theselves?

Because reporters are extorted by Arabs. Sometimes killed by the enemy and blamed on us. We don't have good enough insurance to cover that. How come the Russians barred reporters from their battlefields in the caucuses? How come Arafats hospital records arent public knowledge... How come the moon is drifting away from the earth...


No. But that doesn't give anyone the right to commit warcrimes. Serbs too have been killed and bombed during the war. By the way 700 Gazans have died so far, how many Israely?

Thats Israeli not Israely. You want to play a numbers game? We can open this up to historic precedence, not to mention the analysis of their cannon fodder approach to foreign policy.

[bararallu]

Is Israel capable of winning against Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. together?

Yes of course.


but it won't dry up anytime soon. And in the meanwhile the world economy relies heavily upon it.

So.. 46 bucks a barrel doesn't run your economy in either Russia, Iran or SA. Soon enough we'll see mass protests and mass graves in Iran.


This is a bunch of cr$p, if it's not islamist or communist it's fascist right? Israel made peace with Egypt and Jordan, both dictatorships. Just admit that you don't want to give back the stolen Golan heights.


Your stolen = my legitimate re-absorption of Hebrew land due to an aggressors attempt and loss at genocide. We can agree to disagree. Jordan is basically a full client state of the US. Egypt not so much. Syria is a fascist and terrorist and anti-semitic dictatorship that has without fail instigated and attacked the Israeli body politic.


more nonsense, Syria is combatting Al-quaida, none of the 11/9 hijackers came from Syria as far as I know. Besides the US too financed terrorism. It did so in Afghanistan during the 80's. Those same guys, stuffed with taxpayers money, later turned against the US.

SA is combating AQ too as is Iran... so what. They all spread it. The Syrians funneled a s*it load of AQ into Iraq. They are harboring WMD and are an unstable state at that. Bottom line, they need to go. And soon.


You don't believe in peace. You believe in war, just like Netanyahu and George Bush. And we all see the results. Obama wants to negociate with Iran and Syria. I believe that's the right strategy.

I believe in not entering any cattle cars bound for gas resorts, like you essentially suggest in every post on this forum. Be that peace or war, I'm good with either as long as we stand tall and proud as Jews and don't cow tow to cowards, anti-Semites and savages.


Well, they win every (free and fair) election so far.


The population is pretty much spilt. Interesting you supporting the Islamists over the Kemalists. But I don't want to digress into Turkey. That is a side issue really.


You believe in ethnic cleansing, we know already.

I merely don't believe in turning the other cheek. Would I initiate it? no, would I respond with it... just like your leadership and 99% of French, you betcha.


But that is not realistic for all the reasons I exposed above. It is a certain recipe for loosing American support and the destruction of Israel. Not even Netanyahu will go that far.

You haven't provided one actually bonafide reason. Only some conjecture and just so stories.


The only realistic solution is a two-state solution. Only problem is how to deal with the extremists who want it all for themselves (on both sides.) That will be a big challenge for Obama.

If you say. I dont think he'll touch it with a 10' pole, esp in the first (hopefully last) administration. And the two state solution should be 3 state solution, Egypt, Jordan and Israel. I will not dignify the anti Semitic construct of fakestine, and neither should any son or daughter "of pigs and monkeys."


Another Bush-legacy. The world economy will bleed even more if oil supply from the Middle East gets endangered, or when a massive regional war erupts.

I'm not interested in Iraq. I'm Israeli not American. I merely mentioned it to demonstrate that there is a lot on Obamas plate and he wont shove his arm in the Israeli-Fakestine hornets nest for a long time, not seriously at least.


That's part of the legacy of G. W. Bush. But somehow I think the departure of the Americans will help establish peace in Iraq.

:lol:


The shiites are the strongest, they'll win, the army is theirs, with the help of Iran of course. That's why they want the Americans out.


There will be a genocide there w/o Americans and a regional war to boot... not involving Israel I'm willing to bet.


antisemite because they condamned Israel for illegal occupation and colonisation? So the UN is equally an anti-Arab organisation since they condamned the invasion of Kouweit by Sadam?


Because they target Israel disproportionately to every other country on Earth. Tibet or Chechnya or Sudan or French occupation of half a dozen colonies don't get 1/10th the attention as the plight of a fabricated eternal refugee. Statistics makes my case, shall we count the resolutions, shall we correlate that with conflict-death ratios?


Like whom? Except the US and a few mini states Israel has little friends. During the last vote about Gaza only 7 nations supported Israel.

Seven is a pretty good start.


no thanks to your own leaders who want a Greater Israel, rather than peace

Greater Israel is here my dhimmi friend. It came and it's been here since 1948.


Iraq FORBADE emigration.


Tell it to the Iraqi Jews. I wont argue this, just like I don't really argue with the correlated holocaust deniers.

[Yala]

So you admit that just hypocisy?

They are politicians, which by definition make them liars and hypocrites. Poli Sci 101. When European Leaders and GWB refer to, for ex., Saudi Arabia or Fatah as moderate? Do you think they believe it?



Personally I'm not a favor of any international tribunal as long as some states escape justice. Justice is only justice if it applies to all equally. The tribunals that exist today are politically motivated.

Can't you say the same thing about the UN which you seem to support, along with all its resolutions?
.


About the views, I think Obama's views concerning the Middle East, Russia, Latin America, economics and social security are very similar to the mainstream Western European politics. He hired some people from the Clinton-administration (which was also much closer to Europe compared to the Bush-administration), but basically he's the one in charge.

Well, I'm not a fortune teller and I'm not going to pretend I know what Obama is going to do. I don't think all the gays that voted for him predicted that he will choose an anti-gay pastor to swear him in, but he did.

His personal views may indeed be similar to those of Western Europeans, but that doesn't mean he is going to be able to implement those policies here, where our society just thinks differently. I have come around to your side in supporting free healthcare for everyone, but Obama does not even support that.



The world economy will bleed even more if oil supply from the Middle East gets endangered, or when a massive regional war erupts.

Your posts seem to put a lot of emphasis on oil. You make a few good points but Obama may be the first green president for all we know. Oil is going to run out sooner rather than later. If Obama is as smart as people say he is, he is going to be proactive about this. Then again he may be as short-sighted regarding oil as all our previous presidents and European leaders.


Is Israel capable of winning against Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. together?

:lol: So you believe in the Ummah? Don't you realize this bullshit and helping Palestinians are just empty slogans? I saw an Arab mother screaming on Al Jazeerah "Where are the Arab nations?" Currently, I think most Arab nations are supporting Israel much more than the Western European ones. Do you think these shaky regimes are going to risk getting toppled to help Palestinians? They only support the Palestinian "cause" when it suits them, and not the other way around. They will fund proxies and that's about it. The days of them sending their armies to get decimated are over. They have actually gotten smarter while Israel has gotten dumber.



I see that you don't want peace, not even with secular Syria.

I really don't see the difference between Islamist countries such as Iran & SA and "secular" ones such as Iraq and Syria. Both fund Jihadist proxies to fight Israel so what's the difference really? Just like Hamas and Fatah, while the means are different, the goals are the same.

[israel_heart]

Israel is capable of winning against Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc.

[Rob]

So what Israel is doing right now in Gaza is not a warcrime? What's the difference? Bosnian combatants too were hiding among civilians, just like Hamas. And Serbs, just like Israel, used this as a reason for the high civilian casualties and indiscriminate bombings of villages and cities, for which many Serbs have been convicted.

Are you serious with your question what the difference is? The difference is that the IDF doesn´t seperate the entire Gazan male population, puts them in buses while saying everything is fine and then stop at a small country side road where upon everybody has to get out and has to kneel and every single man is shot from the back. That´s only one difference...
Srebrenica also showed that the UN is useless and that even its soldiers do not shy away from helping those commiting genocide.

[Anatolia]

By the way Turkey today is much more developped than a few years ago, no more torture, and even the Kurds are getting minority rights. Erdogan is also doing a good job economically, Turkey is booming.

Edit: don't want to be off topic,but just want to say you are wrong.

[takeo]

Edit: don't want to be off topic,but just want to say you are wrong.

Really? GNP growth 7% every year, one of the fastest growing economies in Europe.
This week the government even started a television channel in Kurdish, just a few years ago speaking Kurdish in public was forbidden. Anyway, they still seem to win every election, so they must be doing a good job. All Turks I know tell me there is big progress in Turkey, concerning the economy but as well human rights. Police would never beat citizens on the street like happened all the time 10 years ago. There are few if any disappearings or political murders as happened often in the past. The role of the army seems to become smaller, which is of course a positive devellopment. (maybe not for Israel)

So if I'm wrong, can you elaborate please?

[israel_heart]

Edit: don't want to be off topic,but just want to say you are wrong.

I agree

[takeo]

Are you serious with your question what the difference is? The difference is that the IDF doesn´t seperate the entire Gazan male population, puts them in buses while saying everything is fine and then stop at a small country side road where upon everybody has to get out and has to kneel and every single man is shot from the back. That´s only one difference...
Srebrenica also showed that the UN is useless and that even its soldiers do not shy away from helping those commiting genocide.

I was not referring to that. Some Serbs (see my link above) have also been convicted for the indiscriminate shelling of Sarajevo and other cities.
Serbs, like Israel were defending their own civilians from muslims and Croats who wanted to exterminate Serbian population.

[Rob]

I was not referring to that.

Yes you were:


Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants.

[Cellis]

I was not referring to that. Some Serbs (see my link above) have also been convicted for the indiscriminate shelling of Sarajevo and other cities.
Serbs, like Israel were defending their own civilians from muslims and Croats who wanted to exterminate Serbian population.
I watched "Milosevic Trial - Corruption Of International Justice" and found interesting. I don't know is it a propoganda or not but makes me think ...

[dayag]

The Serbs murdered unarmed prisoners at Srebrenica, not all of whom had been combatants.

[takeo]

Israel is capable of winning against Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc.

I'm not so sure. Even the war against Hesbollah wasn't a complete succes.

[takeo]

Yala


They are politicians, which by definition make them liars and hypocrites. Poli Sci 101. When European Leaders and GWB refer to, for ex., Saudi Arabia or Fatah as moderate? Do you think they believe it?

I think they do. I do. And I've visited Ramallah last year. They want peace and they do believe in a two-state solution. YOU don't.





Can't you say the same thing about the UN which you seem to support, along with all its resolutions?

The UN is a potentially good institution, to prevent things like WWII from happening again. They have not been completely succesful, because of political divisions, but there hasn't been a WWII yet, right? I think the UN is one of the reasons. And other affiliated organisations like Unicef, Worldbank, etc. have also achieved many things. Without them, it would be worse.
The only reason why you hate UN and international law is because you prefere the right of the strongest. Because, for the moment, it's in your advantage. But it might not always be like that.





Well, I'm not a fortune teller and I'm not going to pretend I know what Obama is going to do. I don't think all the gays that voted for him predicted that he will choose an anti-gay pastor to swear him in, but he did.

I don't know about his gay policy, but he clearly stated peace and a two-state resolution in the middle East will be his priority. Even yesterday he said that he is deeply concerned about the loss of Palestinian and Israeli life, and that he will elaborate his policy as soon as he get inaugurated.






His personal views may indeed be similar to those of Western Europeans, but that doesn't mean he is going to be able to implement those policies here, where our society just thinks differently.

He will move the US in the direction of Western Europe. If course it will never be completely the same and it'll take time, but at least the direction is right.





I have come around to your side in supporting free healthcare for everyone, but Obama does not even support that.

He supports affordable healthcare for everyone. Even in Europe there isn't absolutely free healthcare for everyone.






Your posts seem to put a lot of emphasis on oil.

Any economist knows that oil is crucial for the world economy, it will remain so in the coming decades.


You make a few good points but Obama may be the first green president for all we know.

green energy is good, but even in the greenest and most progressive European countries like Denmark and Sweden oil and gas still account for most of the energy and green energy only for less than 15%. It will take a very long time before green energy can replace oil or gas.




Oil is going to run out sooner rather than later.

it can still take over 100 years.


If Obama is as smart as people say he is, he is going to be proactive about this. Then again he may be as short-sighted regarding oil as all our previous presidents and European leaders.

there are some realities, even solar energy or wind energy will never be able to replace oil and gas. Nuclear energy might so, but that has other disadvantages.





:lol: So you believe in the Ummah? Don't you realize this bullshit and helping Palestinians are just empty slogans? I saw an Arab mother screaming on Al Jazeerah "Where are the Arab nations?"

For now yes, but if Israel is going to exterminate or ethnically cleanse all Palestinians things will be different. Even now after 600 deaths many people touch the streets, even in repressive dictatorships. There will be a point that anger will boil over, and the regimes won't have any choice left.
Even in Europe already some politicians advocate to take sanctions against Israel. Just imagine what will be the reaction when Israel resorts to massive ethnic cleansing or genocide. Anyway, such Israeli actions are certainly not goign to stabilise the Middle East and are a heaven's gift for Al-Quaida and the likes. I think Obama realises that. Settling the conflict is one important tool in the struggle against terrorism.












Currently, I think most Arab nations are supporting Israel much more than the Western European ones.

No, they don't, all expressed their anger and even the official press is calling for tough action.


Do you think these shaky regimes are going to risk getting toppled to help Palestinians?

No, but if the conflict really get to the point of massive ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, it might be different.





They only support the Palestinian "cause" when it suits them, and not the other way around. They will fund proxies and that's about it. The days of them sending their armies to get decimated are over. They have actually gotten smarter while Israel has gotten dumber.

Even trough proxies they can seriously harm Israel.



I really don't see the difference between Islamist countries such as Iran & SA and "secular" ones such as Iraq and Syria. Both fund Jihadist proxies to fight Israel so what's the difference really?

Syria wants peace with Israel and said it will stop funding Hezbollah and Hamas once Israel gives back the Golan. Israel, if it wants, can make peace with Syria. Saddam too never attacked the US and never funded Al-Quaida. The current islamists in Iraq (who controll Iraq thanks to the US) have no rationality, and no limits, like Hamas. That's why they are so dangerous and destabilising.





Just like Hamas and Fatah, while the means are different, the goals are the same.


nonsense, Abbas and Fatah want a two-state solution, and didn't attack Israel for a long time. Of course if Israel refuses a two-state solution based on the green line, than they will and they SHOULD restart the intifadeh. Occupation means war. And if there are no more peace-negociations (what Netanyahu wants, eventough there hasn't been any violence on the Westbank for long time) than there should be no more peace. You can't have it all. If Israel doesn't want peace, and should receive war. That's only fair and normal, isn't it? ANY nation has the right to defend itself, including the Palestinians. Also, if Israel doesn't want peace US-support should stop.

[takeo]

The Serbs murdered unarmed prisoners at Srebrenica, not all of whom had been combatants.

Yes, but most Serbs have been convicted for indiscriminate shelling like the example I gave above.

[takeo]

Yes you were:

No, I referred as well to the conviction of Milosevic (not Slobodan) whose only crime was shelling Sarajevo. I gave a link.

[dayag]

Yes, but most Serbs have been convicted for indiscriminate shelling like the example I gave above.

I was responding to something you wrote but later changed:



"Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants."

After you changed your original post, I removed your quote from my post.

The only one engaging in "indiscriminate shelling" in this conflict is Hamas.

[takeo]

bararallu


The Holocaust took care of the Jews in Solonika.

yes but many Jews were already chased away and persecuted by the Greeks during the great ethnic cleansings. Many fled to the US, France and even to Turkey.



When they boot your parents for spying that will be a nice thing indeed.

you're an insane fascist.


Generally, it's their party and I'm not invited. I dont personally care if they do or dont. I think they already boot select people and that will increase and baloon at some point. Mostly because people on the left (such as yourself) inherently allowed the hard right so much pendulum vacillation with your immigration policies.

I CARE, I don't want Jews, nor Arabs nor anyone else to be ethnically cleansed because they belong to the wrong tribe. Fortunately, in europe, even proposing such insanity and nazism, can get you in jail.




North and South America and Australia/NZ are multinational states, fundamentally different from France or Germany, historically and presently.

Germany and France are multinational states as well, and always have been, that's what you, as well as Hitler, don't understand.





Here's one for you: I do not accept the notion of "Palestinian land". Hebrew soil is Hebrew soil. period. Theologically motivated and proven genocidal historic brigands and their shallow geopolitical claims, at that augmented by both Nazis and Communists, are outside my ken to assimilate, much less respect.

OK, so I demand that the native Americans can back their land! All you yankees, Jews, blacks etc. go home! (whereever that is)
Theologically motivated? yeah Right!? And then you complain that Arabs are not irrational and zealots!




I doubt that. Europe has trade with Russia which ethnically cleansed and committed a genocide in Chechnya.

It didn't, Chechnya is still mainly inhabited by Chechens.



Committed war crimes in Georgia.

Any links please? Only a few dozens civilians died during that war. How many died in Gaza already?




Ditto China, ditto 90% of the African and former colonial countries. Realpolitik rules the day not your shoddy concepts of truth to power nonsense.

Yes, but there's a point of no return. For example what happened in Yugoslavia. Moreover, this is not an internal conflict but an international one.




Prove purposefulness. Prove "targeting non firing civilians". And FYI, all you have to do is carry a recognizable weapon in the GC to be legally fired upon, thanks for playing.

According to most NGO's most victims were unarmed civilians.


Because reporters are extorted by Arabs.

what a bunch of nonsense. How are they extorted, any links?

[Rob]

cleansed because they belong to the wrong tribe. Fortunately, in europe, even proposing such insanity and nazism, can get you in jail.

The last week we have seen so many demonstrations in Europe where people call for the extension of all Jews. I have also seen left politicians staying quite while they join these demonstrations. I wouldn´t surprise me one bit that you stay quite too and turn a blind eye or deaf ear to it.

[takeo]

bararallu






So.. 46 bucks a barrel doesn't run your economy in either Russia, Iran or SA. Soon enough we'll see mass protests and mass graves in Iran.


that's what you hope for, but it won't happen. But what's possible is that they decide to stop delivery to any state supporting and arming Israel. That will surely upset Washington and international economy, as it did in the 70's. So what do you propose next, the occupation and colonisation of Saudi Arabia? Maybe changing Meqa in an American base full of brothels?



Your stolen = my legitimate re-absorption of Hebrew land due to an aggressors attempt and loss at genocide.

more lies. In 1967 Syria didn't even attack Israel. That's why Israel send a tractor inside the no-man's land in order to provoke Syria. Once the tractor was shot at, Israel started a full scale invasion. This are well-known and well established facts. It reminds me of the German invasion of Poland, which started after a similar staged border incident.







We can agree to disagree. Jordan is basically a full client state of the US.

yes, and a dictatorship.



Egypt not so much. Syria is a fascist and terrorist and anti-semitic dictatorship that has without fail instigated and attacked the Israeli body politic.

Syria is much more secularised than Egypt. Another difference is that Israel gave back stolen lands to Egypt and not to Syria. That's why Syria is funding and arming anti-Israeli groups, and Egypt is not.




SA is combating AQ too as is Iran... so what.

The links between SA and AQ are very diffuse and complicated to say the least...



They all spread it. The Syrians funneled a s*it load of AQ into Iraq.

Maybe. Why should they help to protect a hostile US which illegally occupied Iraq? There were no terrorists in Iraq before the American invasion. It was not Syria which invaded Iraq, it was the US. And Iraqi's are not throwing shoes at Assad, they are throwing shoes at Bush. Besides, there are millions of Iraqi refugees in Syria, many of them christians who have been persecuted since the American invasion and feel safer in Syria.






They are harboring WMD and are an unstable state at that. Bottom line, they need to go. And soon.

You mean like Iraq? I've heard that kind of crasy rethorics before. You want to create another Iraq, right? I think the American public opinion might think differently.







I merely don't believe in turning the other cheek. Would I initiate it? no, would I respond with it... just like your leadership and 99% of French, you betcha.

The Arabs shouldn't turn the other cheek either. If Israel continues the occupation, the Arabs have the right to target Israel in all ways possible. That's not terrorism, but self-defense. And Israel can only blame its own leaders.





You haven't provided one actually bonafide reason. Only some conjecture and just so stories.

I provided many reasons. Problem is that some people are too far off, to far to the right, convinced of their own Holy rights and irrationality to understand any arguments. For the same reason t's not possible to debate with islamists or nazi's either.






If you say. I dont think he'll touch it with a 10' pole, esp in the first (hopefully last) administration. And the two state solution should be 3 state solution, Egypt, Jordan and Israel. I will not dignify the anti Semitic construct of fakestine, and neither should any son or daughter "of pigs and monkeys."

If you want it or not, Palestinians do exist, and they will not disappear overnight, and will continue to haunt you. Untill you give them their own state, or unless you massacre them all.




I'm not interested in Iraq. I'm Israeli not American. I merely mentioned it to demonstrate that there is a lot on Obamas plate and he wont shove his arm in the Israeli-Fakestine hornets nest for a long time, not seriously at least.

let's see. I think he will. And if he does I'm sure you'll be the first to scream that Obama is an anti-semite fascist blabla Al-quaida fanatic blabla who has no right to pressure Israel blabla. It seems to me that some Americans are sick and tired of Israel, you can see it on many internet forums. Why should they continue to pay for a country that can't behave itself and always causes trouble?





Because they target Israel disproportionately to every other country on Earth. Tibet or Chechnya or Sudan or French occupation of half a dozen colonies don't get 1/10th the attention as the plight of a fabricated eternal refugee. Statistics makes my case, shall we count the resolutions, shall we correlate that with conflict-death ratios?

Israel gets a lot of attention, but that's because it's unique. There is no other case of a country occupying territory not belonging to that country for decades. And of course both Palestinians and Israeli have a lot of powerfull friends in the world, unlike Somalians, Ruandese, etc.





Seven is a pretty good start.

It's very poor.




Greater Israel is here my dhimmi friend. It came and it's been here since 1948.

no, most Israeli don't want Greater Israel. Most don't give a damn about Westbank or Gaza, or about those nutty colonists. Many even admit that Eastern Jerusalem is not really Israel in reality. They only care about Israel propper.






Tell it to the Iraqi Jews. I wont argue this, just like I don't really argue with the correlated holocaust deniers.

What, did I deny Holocaust or what are you saying?????????

[takeo]

The last week we have seen so many demonstrations in Europe where people call for the extension of all Jews. I have also seen left politicians staying quite while they join these demonstrations. I wouldn´t surprise me one bit that you stay quite too and turn a blind eye or deaf ear to it.

Exactly who called for the extermination of all Jews? Or you you confusing calls for ending the bloodshet in Gaza with calling for exterminating all Jews?

[Rob]

Exactly who called for the extermination of all Jews?

Yep, that´s what I mean! I am sure you didn´t hear people chanting that the Jews should go the gas chambers etc...


Or you you confusing calls for ending the bloodshet in Gaza with calling for exterminating all Jews?

No.

[Yala]

Yala

I think they do. I do. And I've visited Ramallah last year. They want peace and they do believe in a two-state solution. YOU don't.


Ramallah is not representative of the rest of the Palestinian territories. People in that city are the most open-minded. It's like comparing people who live in NY to Nebraska. Try walking around a refugee camp and asking about a 2 state solution.

I want peace, of course, but I am realistic and I understand that a 2 state solution will not bring peace. Next you are going to accuse me of believing in Greater Israel or the mesiah or whatever, I know the script.

Personally, I will take Arafat's word, the Arabic version of course, not the English bullshit he used to fool people like you.



The UN is a potentially good institution, to prevent things like WWII from happening again. They have not been completely succesful, because of political divisions, but there hasn't been a WWII yet, right? I think the UN is one of the reasons.

Hmm, i thought they were also created to prevent genocides, yet I can name 3 off the top of my head that occured in the last 20-30 years.


And other affiliated organisations like Unicef, Worldbank, etc. have also achieved many things. Without them, it would be worse.

There are lots of NGO's, charities who have done much better than UNICEF, so what?




The only reason why you hate UN and international law is because you prefere the right of the strongest. Because, for the moment, it's in your advantage. But it might not always be like that.

Or their numerous scandals including oil for food, the UN soldiers who raped women and children...

Besides, I don't see how the UN alters or affects US goals. The US has and will bypass the UN whenever they want. Strongest shmongeest, this nonsense is moot.

And just as you accused the "international courts" of being politically motivated (which it is) you know that the UN, of course is the same beast, yet you support it...You can't even be honest with yourself. This is why I always accuse you of playing devil's advocate.






I don't know about his gay policy, but he clearly stated peace and a two-state resolution in the middle East will be his priority. Even yesterday he said that he is deeply concerned about the loss of Palestinian and Israeli life, and that he will elaborate his policy as soon as he get inaugurated.


So did GWB. Again, I'm missing your point.







He will move the US in the direction of Western Europe. If course it will never be completely the same and it'll take time,

Maybe a little, but not much.


but at least the direction is right.

Why? Is your economy so great? Especially in France?




He supports affordable healthcare for everyone. Even in Europe there isn't absolutely free healthcare for everyone.

The plan is bullshit and business as usual. Even his supporters will tell you. Hillary's was much better.




Any economist knows that oil is crucial for the world economy, it will remain so in the coming decades.

Yet how many articles about alternative energy have appeared in the Economist lately?


green energy is good, but even in the greenest and most progressive European countries like Denmark and Sweden oil and gas still account for most of the energy and green energy only for less than 15%. It will take a very long time before green energy can replace oil or gas.

And yet look what is going on in Brazil with Ethanol. Ethanol, of course, is not the answer for us but there have been aggressive research for oil alternatives and you can thank Al Gore for that.



it can still take over 100 years.
there are some realities, even solar energy or wind energy will never be able to replace oil and gas. Nuclear energy might so, but that has other disadvantages.

They've mapped the human genome and they can't do this?;)

In the meantime many Arab countries are running out of oil. Syria is basically finished with oil.







For now yes, but if Israel is going to exterminate or ethnically cleanse all Palestinians things will be different. Even now after 600 deaths many people touch the streets, even in repressive dictatorships. There will be a point that anger will boil over, and the regimes won't have any choice left.
Even in Europe already some politicians advocate to take sanctions against Israel. Just imagine what will be the reaction when Israel resorts to massive ethnic cleansing or genocide. Anyway, such Israeli actions are certainly not goign to stabilise the Middle East and are a heaven's gift for Al-Quaida and the likes. I think Obama realises that. Settling the conflict is one important tool in the struggle against terrorism.

Nobody is going to exterminate anyone. What is this fantasy Island? In 100+ years of this conflict only maybe 60k have been killed on all sides. A lot less than you guys killed in Algeria. Let's get realistic here. I'm not going to debate nonsensical arguments.



No, they don't, all expressed their anger and even the official press is calling for tough action.

:lol: for public consumption but has anyone lifted a finger to help them? Even Hezbollah did nothing but use tired Arab slogans.


Even trough proxies they can seriously harm Israel.


Yes, very much so. In this way I explained they have gotten smarter and Israel got dumber. These regimes have got armies of zombies on Israel's border ready to martyr themselves for the cause, while they sit in the palaces and laugh. I'd say they're smart.




Syria wants peace with Israel and said it will stop funding Hezbollah and Hamas once Israel gives back the Golan. Israel, if it wants, can make peace with Syria.


I don't think you can say for sure. It's all just your opinion, or are you going to tell me you met a Syrian on the street in Damascus who told you they want peace so you believe it....

Besides, I think Barak offered the Golan to Assad Sr. Why did he turn it down?


Saddam too never attacked the US and never funded Al-Quaida. The current islamists in Iraq (who controll Iraq thanks to the US) have no rationality, and no limits, like Hamas. That's why they are so dangerous and destabilising.

Saddam and al Qaeda had very loose links, it's true, but he did fund Islamists such as suicide bomber families who blew themselves up in Israel and that is proven. Besides, does someone have to be religious to be crazy? He was dangerous, but you're right Iran is worse.

I will not defend the way Bush handled the war if that's where you're going with this.



nonsense, Abbas and Fatah want a two-state solution, and didn't attack Israel for a long time.

So they send their militia, al aqsa brigades to attack, what's the difference really?


Of course if Israel refuses a two-state solution based on the green line, than they will and they SHOULD restart the intifadeh. Occupation means war. And if there are no more peace-negociations (what Netanyahu wants, eventough there hasn't been any violence on the Westbank for long time) than there should be no more peace. You can't have it all. If Israel doesn't want peace, and should receive war. That's only fair and normal, isn't it? ANY nation has the right to defend itself, including the Palestinians.

Let them start another intifadeh. 2 inteifadehs and with each one they are in a worse place, but if that's what they want, so be it.

Israel is in a perpetual state of war. People like you blame it on the occupation, like before the occupation there was peace (?), whatever you want to believe it fine with me...


Also, if Israel doesn't want peace US-support should stop.

I think in any case, US support to Israel should stop. If you look at Israel's GDP they can survive w/o this 3 billion or whatever it is. And if you mean US support and not just aid, then that will be your worse nightmare b/c anyone knows that any country that is anti-US automatically has the knee-jerk support of leftists everywhere.

[Yala]

After you changed your original post, I removed your quote from my post..

He changed his post after you responded? Why?

[Mil]

LONG LIVE FIDEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO PASSARAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The revolution is coming!!! And Takeo is boring.

The Russians and especially the Soviets, whom he so much adores including the all favorite comrade Stalin, would have simply load the entire population onto trains and ship them to warmer climates. Exactly what Stalin has done to the Chechens, Tartars, and a few other Muslim Crimean groups who have decided to declare a Jihad against the state. In Siberia it's a lot harder to Jihad. Over a quarter of all the Chechens, for example, died while on the way to destination.

Neither Lenin, Stalin, Kruschev, Breznev, Andropov, Chernenko, or Gorbi would have counted to three if any of this bull.... would be happening anywhere close to them. Exactly what Putin did in Chechnya and exactly what he did in Georgia. And exactly the thing Fidel would do and does to his own people, Chavez, Saddam, Hitler and all others whose power is absolute!

[bararallu]

Personally, I will take Arafat's word, the Arabic version of course, not the English bullshit he used to fool people like you.



Thing is he's not fooled. He's not a dhimmi, he is literally the other side. He's proactively on the enemy side. We've already ascertained that his parents were soviet agents. You don't have to believe me, ask any Soviet Jew on here regarding that. And I'm quite sure the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. You see his whole game plan is just to whitewash Arab atrocities. He even had the gall to say that ME Jews left on their own accord, in my book thats tantamount to Holocaust denial. He is fundamentally the other side of the coin of someone like "scottishlady." I'll leave it to others to waste their time with this.

[Mil]

99% of the Russian Jews clearly have a different opinion.

[Yala]

Thing is he's not fooled. He's not a dhimmi, he is literally the the other side. He's proactively on the enemy side. [You don't have to believe me, ask any Soviet Jew on here regarding that. And I'm quite sure the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. You see his whole game plan is just to whitewash Arab atrocities.


He is fundamentally the other side of the coin of someone like "scottishlady."

He represents the typical European viewpoint. They make the same arguments. They also whitewash Arab atrocities (and in his case, Russia's) and amplify Israel's. I guess your point is he knows he's lying while typical Europeans actually believe the propaganda. Am I correct?


We've already ascertained that his parents were soviet agents.

?


He even had the gall to say that ME Jews left on their own accord, in my book thats tantamount to Holocaust denial.

Well, it's clearly a lie that's why I didn't approach it with him. He knows it's not true.

[Mil]

Posted by Yala:

He represents the typical European viewpoint.

No - he does not. Europeans are very aggressive people. They just don't like Joos, minorities and each other - the reason America was created and has prospered.

Takeo is different. He is a communist. For some reason communists have a problem with Israel. Traditionally communists were against any kind of nationalist movements which naturally included Zionism. The other reason for hating Zionism was that lots of Jewish intellectuals would rather contribute to the Jewish "dream" rather then Soviet one; and the Jewish dream was a lot more acceptable to the mostly destitute Jewish masses. However, after the borders were closed in the mid-20 this disappeared as a problem. It re surged following the establishment of Israel which USSR supported and which Stalin hoped would take Soviet side given so many cultural similarities. It did not happen - Ben Gurion and the people who created Israel knew exactly what they would get into. Stalin got overly upset, especially when Golda was greeted by tens of thousands of Jews in front of an only Moscow synagogue, on the and initiated a public anti-Zionist/anti-Jewish campaign which became known today as the "Doctor's plot." Zionism became synonymous with fascism. Following 1967 war when Israel completely destroyed all Soviet ME allies armed with Soviet weapons in bare 6 days anti-Zionism became the thing! Polish anti-Zionist thing was a lot more agressive - they simply threw out most of the remaining Jews from Poland ( I have a good book on that).

So it sort of stayed with communists as an official party line. Many prominent Soviet Jews, who happened to be devout communists, spoke out publicly against Zionism. An organization called Anti-Zionist Committee was created chaired by prominent Soviet Jews headed by WWII hero General-Colonel David Dragunsky, Bolshoi prima-ballerina Maya Plesetskaya (she now says that she was threatened by authorities to participate), and a number of others. This was a pretty idiotic organization as a majority of Soviet Jews did not take it seriously and it generated a large number of jokes.

Takeo is a strange example for a communist. He is a Jewish-Russian nationalist who was born in France. Really weird.


They make the same arguments. They also whitewash Arab atrocities (and in his case, Russia's) and amplify Israel's.

Our local nationalist Takeo cannot even understand that turning off gas to Ukraine in the middle of a winter is purely the thing a Russian-Putin vindictive mindset would do. If he would be born in Russia he would understand.

I guess your point is he knows he's lying while typical Europeans actually believe the propaganda. Am I correct?

He sees what he wants to see. Not that he cares. I don't take him seriously especially when the likes of him try to prove to me that Fidel's Cuba, a place where descending Takeo would get f**ed in the buttocks by some over-enthusiastic security professional, is paradise on Earth.

[pizza4theidf]

Mil, I agree mate. Last year, I went to France for a weekend abroad with some friends. I can't speak French very well and tried asking for things in a French accent and trying to remember the few French words I know. They just glared at me - I mean it doesn't cost much to be polite and helpful. It was probably because they knew I was Jewish.

[dayag]

Mil, I agree mate. Last year, I went to France for a weekend abroad with some friends. I can't speak French very well and tried asking for things in a French accent and trying to remember the few French words I know. They just glared at me - I mean it doesn't cost much to be polite and helpful. It was probably because they knew I was Jewish.

Your Shtreiml and black overcoat were probably a dead giveaway, m'sieur. Did you at least tuck your payot behind your ears?

By the way, the only bad meal I got in Paris was at Goldberg's in the 4th arrondisement. Feh!

[pizza4theidf]

Your Shtreiml and black overcoat were probably a dead giveaway, m'sieur. Did you at least tuck your payot behind your ears?

By the way, the only bad meal I got in Paris was at Goldberg's in the 4th arrondisement. Feh!

:D

Nah, I'm secular, but I have quite a large nose...

[takeo]

LONG LIVE FIDEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO PASSARAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The revolution is coming!!! And Takeo is boring.

The Russians and especially the Soviets, whom he so much adores including the all favorite comrade Stalin, would have simply load the entire population onto trains and ship them to warmer climates. Exactly what Stalin has done to the Chechens, Tartars, and a few other Muslim Crimean groups who have decided to declare a Jihad against the state. In Siberia it's a lot harder to Jihad. Over a quarter of all the Chechens, for example, died while on the way to destination.

Neither Lenin, Stalin, Kruschev, Breznev, Andropov, Chernenko, or Gorbi would have counted to three if any of this bull.... would be happening anywhere close to them. Exactly what Putin did in Chechnya and exactly what he did in Georgia. And exactly the thing Fidel would do and does to his own people, Chavez, Saddam, Hitler and all others whose power is absolute!

So now Stalin is your big example?
And the Soviets too fought Islamic Jihadists (financed by the US) in Afghanistan. The Jihadists WON, Soviets retreated and ended the occupation of Afghanistan. How many civilians were killed during the latest war with Georgia, compared to how many in Gaza and Lebanon?
And finally, Russians ended their grip on Ukraine, Belarus, Kasakhstan, etc. which belonged to Russia since many centuries and where many ethnic Russians lived, WITHOUT a fight. Israel is doing the opposite.
I think Israel killed a lot more people than Fidel ever did. (besides I'm not a big fan of Fidel) Chavez killed noone, eventough there has been an American-made coup against him. You are always thinking in stereotypes: Russia and Arabs bad, Israel and the US good. Why? You are intelligent. You should know that the reality is much more complicated.

[bararallu]

:D

Nah, I'm secular, but I have quite a large nose...

In the land of Chirac and De Gaul, you wouldn't stand out!

[bararallu]

He represents the typical European viewpoint. They make the same arguments. They also whitewash Arab atrocities (and in his case, Russia's) and amplify Israel's. I guess your point is he knows he's lying while typical Europeans actually believe the propaganda. Am I correct?
Yep.


?
You must have missed that thread a while back, when he disclosed that his parents were "exchange academics" to France, in the early 80s I think. Thing is... Jews just didn't get out. The only way they got out is declaring themselves Zionist and becoming traitors to the state... refugees, and then going through the process that every Russian Speaking Jew on this forum will describe pretty much identically. Am I 100% sure? No, I'm not a conspiracy nut. But logic dictates that the Soviets had their agents as part of the general Comintern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_International)activity or worse as professional spies in the West. Augmented by his proficiency at anti Israel propaganda, which makes me think it was specifically educated. A friend of my family was a math wiz in Moscow U (MGU), he had actual academic correspondences with North Americans and various Europeans, the KGB tried to recruit him too for a "sabbatical" at a West German University. They tried to recruit all people who had the potential to burrow into the fabric of the West. In the West, as you know, many better Universities carry out govt sponsored work, lot of it rather secret. Good place to have spies and a great place to disseminate pro Soviet sentiment among the already saichel dead ivory tower types. You had to be a card carrying commie to have the conversation. And you had to sell your soul to Putin's cohorts in order to have your family die from old age once you are involved. Aside from that, France was always especially disposed to the Soviet propaganda machine.


Well, it's clearly a lie that's why I didn't approach it with him. He knows it's not true.


He just posted a disgraceful reference. I wish he or his parents lived through those days as Jews in Iraq or Yemen or Morocco.

[Yala]

Well, this Chechnya argument (between Mil & Takeo) can be solved in 2 seconds. How many civilians in Chechnya did Russia kill?

[bararallu]

Civilian casualty estimates vary widely. According to the pro-Moscow government, 160,000 combatants and non-combatants died or have gone missing in the two wars, including 30,000–40,000 Chechens and about 100,000 Russians;[67][68] while rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov (deceased) repeatedly claimed about 200,000 ethnic Chechens died as a consequence of the two conflicts.[69] As in the case of military losses, these claims can not be independently verified. According to a count by the Russian human rights group Memorial in 2007, up to 25,000 civilians have died or disappeared since 1999.[70] According to Amnesty International in 2007, the second war killed up to 25,000 civilians since 1999, with up to another 5,000 people missing.[71] However, the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society set their estimate of the total death toll in two wars at about 150,000 to 200,000 civilians.[72] from wiki

[takeo]

Yal


Ramallah is not representative of the rest of the Palestinian territories. People in that city are the most open-minded. It's like comparing people who live in NY to Nebraska. Try walking around a refugee camp and asking about a 2 state solution.

why is Ramallah different? Have you ever been there? I can say that Ramallah appears to be a relatively peaceful and civilised place. But of course the situation remains that anyone entering and leaving Rammalah to go to Jerusalem (in reality Ramallah is a suburb of East-Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city, especially the old city, and completely different from West-Jerusalem) has to endure humiliating checkpoints and controlls by teenager Israeli soldiers with sunglasses. In their own land. We stayed in East-Jerusalem, near Damascus gate, in a guesthouse with slogans against "Israeli imperialism". (just coincidence, the cheapest place in a very expensive city). ALL Palestinians, including in East-Jerusalem, want an independant state. On the other hand I was surprised to see that orthodox Jews went to the Palestinian bazars in East-Jerusalem to shop around, and ate in Palestinian restaurants, without any problems.




I want peace, of course, but I am realistic and I understand that a 2 state solution will not bring peace.

why not?



Next you are going to accuse me of believing in Greater Israel or the mesiah or whatever, I know the script.

So you don't? You would agree with a Palestinian state in East-Jerusalem, Westbank and Gaza if that would bring peace? That's quite different from many other posters here.





Personally, I will take Arafat's word, the Arabic version of course, not the English bullshit he used to fool people like you.

What Arabic versions, when and where? I prefere to take repeated official declarations on many occasions as a source, instead of rumors.





Hmm, i thought they were also created to prevent genocides, yet I can name 3 off the top of my head that occured in the last 20-30 years.

Such as the Vietnam-war for example? The reason they couldn't intervene was because one of the UN security council members prevented intervention.





There are lots of NGO's, charities who have done much better than UNICEF, so what?

I think you can't compare the achievements of Unicef, UNAIDS, etc. to NGO's.





Or their numerous scandals including oil for food, the UN soldiers who raped women and children...

Those scandals are a piece of cake compared to the scandals during unilateral US interventions, such as the war in Iraq or Vietnam.




Besides, I don't see how the UN alters or affects US goals. The US has and will bypass the UN whenever they want. Strongest shmongeest, this nonsense is moot.

We all see the results. Unilateral operations such as the Soviet-invasion of Afghanistan or US-invasion of Iraq are more likely to fail, because there's no international support and coordination.




And just as you accused the "international courts" of being politically motivated (which it is) you know that the UN, of course is the same beast, yet you support it...You can't even be honest with yourself. This is why I always accuse you of playing devil's advocate.


There's a difference. An international court means that all states and their subjects should be equal and have the same rights and obligations, which is not the case. But for the UN to function, not all states should be equal, but at least it's a forum for international cooperation and ending conflicts. That's the strenght of the UN. When the US-intervention in Iraq derailed completely (exactly because it was unilateral) Bush begged other nations to help them, and the UN to step in. He even sought help from Iran and Syria, as did the Iraqi government. The unilateralist interventionist neocons lost every support because their theories proved to be catastrophic.




So did GWB. Again, I'm missing your point.

Not really, only in words. GWB did nothing to really solve the problem, did nothing to pressure Israel and always unilaterally supported Israel.



Maybe a little, but not much.

At least his ideas are quite radical, and very new in the US. He was accused, even by Clinton-supporters, to be too far to the left. He hope they will be materialised. That's why Americans voted for him, they want a big change!


Why? Is your economy so great? Especially in France?

Not too much, but at least recession hit France much less than the US. Other more liberal economies such as Ireland, Spain and GB were hit harder. The euro remains very strong compared to both $ and £.




The plan is bullshit and business as usual. Even his supporters will tell you. Hillary's was much better.

That's only your own opinion.


Yet how many articles about alternative energy have appeared in the Economist lately?

Alternative energy is trendy, but it remains a distant dream, especially in the US, which consumes more gas and oil per inhabitant than any other nation on earth.




And yet look what is going on in Brazil with Ethanol. Ethanol, of course, is not the answer for us but there have been aggressive research for oil alternatives and you can thank Al Gore for that.


This option has been internationally abandonned and discredited. The recent hikes in food prices, which caused famine in many countries, have been universally related to biologic fuel expansion.

[takeo]

In the meantime many Arab countries are running out of oil. Syria is basically finished with oil.

Syria always had small sources and reserves. But Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kouweit and UAE, among others, not to mention Russia, still have tremendous unimaginable reserves that won't be exhausted in the comming decades at least. Besides, as oil and gas becomes more expensive, more and more offshore sources are being developped.







Nobody is going to exterminate anyone. What is this fantasy Island? In 100+ years of this conflict only maybe 60k have been killed on all sides. A lot less than you guys killed in Algeria. Let's get realistic here. I'm not going to debate nonsensical arguments.

I was just responding to baralallu's theory. So you admit that his hyothetical ethnic cleansing scenario is fantasy?




:lol: for public consumption but has anyone lifted a finger to help them? Even Hezbollah did nothing but use tired Arab slogans.

For the moment yes. But I wouldn't push it too far. Arab regimes are not as solid as they appear. Things are moving, especially in Egypt with widespread dissatisfaction. It seems the end of an area is becoming near the the Pharaon.
If the situation in Gaza completely gets out of control it can be dangerous for Mubarak.




Yes, very much so. In this way I explained they have gotten smarter and Israel got dumber. These regimes have got armies of zombies on Israel's border ready to martyr themselves for the cause, while they sit in the palaces and laugh. I'd say they're smart.

That's the Syrian and Iran tactic, which is indeed quite smart. Syria wants to pressure Israel to give back Golan. All of it. They use Hezbollah and Hamas as tools to achieve this goal. But I can't imagine Assad would sign any peace-treaty without at the same time at least the beginning of a solution for the Palestinian problem.
But if Egypt would become islamist Hezbollah and Hamas would become the least of worries for Israel. Egypt has 80 million people, a big army which has considerably been modernised the last decades, and directly borders Israel.
Israel can win a war with Egypt, but can't keep it occupied for long time. If Egypt would turn into another Iraq or Afghanistan, it would be a disater, not only for Israel, but for the whole world.








I don't think you can say for sure. It's all just your opinion, or are you going to tell me you met a Syrian on the street in Damascus who told you they want peace so you believe it....

no, it's in Syrian interest to have peace. When they get Golan they can present it as a big victory to their people. And there have been negociations going on untill the latest Gaza war. Moreover, Assad declared he want to recognise Israel in return for the Golan.



Besides, I think Barak offered the Golan to Assad Sr. Why did he turn it down?

He offered only part of it.



So they send their militia, al aqsa brigades to attack, what's the difference really?

When was the last time Al-Aqsa attacked Israel with rockets? (eventough they have rockets, more then Hamas). As long as negociations were going on, it keeps quite. Whenever negociations break down, they will fight. That's what happens when peace fails, than war restarts. So it's in Israel's interests to make peace happen.



Let them start another intifadeh. 2 inteifadehs and with each one they are in a worse place, but if that's what they want, so be it.

not really, they are better off than during the 80's. At least now every nation on earth, including the current Israeli leadership (Olmert said so), realises the occupation is not going to last forever and that a Palestinian state based on the green line is going to be erected sooner or later. And at least they have some independance right now, which was completely lacking during the '80's.
In the '80's noone in Israel wanted to abandon the occupied territories.



Israel is in a perpetual state of war. People like you blame it on the occupation, like before the occupation there was peace (?), whatever you want to believe it fine with me...

The problem started before the occupation of course, since two peoples fight for the same territory. But now most Palestinians and Israeli accepted the two-state solution as only realistic solution. Olmert specifically said the colonies and occupation are part of the problem, not of the solution. Problem is that unnecessary bloodshet such as in Gaza will diminish the number of Israeli and Palestinians wishing peace with each other, and increase the number supporting extremists.




I think in any case, US support to Israel should stop. If you look at Israel's GDP they can survive w/o this 3 billion or whatever it is.




I don't think so. Israel is, even with billions of american support, not such a wealthy nation. I noticed that last year as well. Many Israeli peopel struggle to make ends meet. Salaries are low compared to the price of life, at least compared to Western-Europe or the US. That's why some return to Europe and even to Russia.
I also noticed the military is part of life of every Israeli. Even in the youthhotel near the Death Sea 16-year old children were carrying automatic guns. And the military and occupation is draining the budget. And what will Israel do without acces to sophisticated American weapons?

[takeo]

Civilian casualty estimates vary widely. According to the pro-Moscow government, 160,000 combatants and non-combatants died or have gone missing in the two wars, including 30,000–40,000 Chechens and about 100,000 Russians;[67][68] while rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov (deceased) repeatedly claimed about 200,000 ethnic Chechens died as a consequence of the two conflicts.[69] As in the case of military losses, these claims can not be independently verified. According to a count by the Russian human rights group Memorial in 2007, up to 25,000 civilians have died or disappeared since 1999.[70] According to Amnesty International in 2007, the second war killed up to 25,000 civilians since 1999, with up to another 5,000 people missing.[71] However, the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society set their estimate of the total death toll in two wars at about 150,000 to 200,000 civilians.[72] from wiki


And how many Iraqi's died in Iraq since the American invasion?
According to some estimations 1307319 Iraqi casualties.
http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
Other conservative estimations mention around 100000.


I remember that most people on this forum supported that invasion...

[takeo]

Well, this Chechnya argument (between Mil & Takeo) can be solved in 2 seconds. How many civilians in Chechnya did Russia kill?

I never said that more Palestinians died than Chechnyans.

But if only numbers count, Israel has the least of all civilian casualties in any recent war.(maybe the recent war between Russia and Georgia excluded, which could be far worse without UN- and Sarkozy intermediation). Yet some continue to claim that Hamas is "massacring Jews" and that there is a second genocide going on, that they are the new Hitler, etc.

[bararallu]

And how many Iraqi's died in Iraq since the American invasion?
According to some estimations 1307319 Iraqi casualties.
http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
Other conservative estimations mention around 100000.


Is that from Shia killing Sunni and vice versa? Or all casualties I wonder?

Shall we go for a final tally?

How many Afghanis died by Soviet hands?

Over 1 million Afghans were killed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan)[61] 5 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, one out of two refugees in the world was an Afghan.[62]

How many Algerians killed by French?

The FLN estimated in 1962 that nearly eight years of revolution had cost 1.5 million dead from war-related causes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War) Some other Algerian sources later put the figure at approximately 1 million dead, while French officials estimated it at 350,000. French military authorities listed their losses at nearly 18,000 dead (6,000 from non-combat-related causes) and 65,000 wounded. European-descended civilian casualties exceeded 10,000 (including 3,000 dead) in 42,000 recorded terrorist incidents. According to French figures, security forces killed 141,000 rebel combatants, and more than 12,000 Algerians died in internal FLN purges during the war. An additional 5,000 died in the "café wars" in France between the FLN and rival Algerian groups. French sources also estimated that 70,000 Muslim civilians were killed, or abducted and presumed killed, by the FLN.

[bararallu]

I never said that more Palestinians died than Chechnyans.

But if only numbers count, Israel has the least of all civilian casualties

Because we actually respect civilians, like we respect life itself, and don't put them in harms way.

[takeo]

Mil, I agree mate. Last year, I went to France for a weekend abroad with some friends. I can't speak French very well and tried asking for things in a French accent and trying to remember the few French words I know. They just glared at me - I mean it doesn't cost much to be polite and helpful. It was probably because they knew I was Jewish.

There are 100's of 1000's of Jews in France, many are belonging to the cultural and economical elite. Many if not most famous French singers, philosophers, etc. are Jewish. If all Jews would leave France cultural life would be decimated. You can't tell who is Jew or who isn't except if you know their family name, just like in the US.
But French don't like Americans and anglosaxon tourists very much. They probably tought you are an American tourist. And yes, French people are not the friendliest in the world, I agree. (that's something they have in common with Israeli people). Jew or non-Jew noone cares.

[takeo]

Is that from Shia killing Sunni and vice versa? Or all casualties I wonder?

Shall we go for a final tally?

How many Afghanis died by Soviet hands?

Over 1 million Afghans were killed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan)[61] 5 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, one out of two refugees in the world was an Afghan.[62]

How many Algerians killed by French?

The FLN estimated in 1962 that nearly eight years of revolution had cost 1.5 million dead from war-related causes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War) Some other Algerian sources later put the figure at approximately 1 million dead, while French officials estimated it at 350,000. French military authorities listed their losses at nearly 18,000 dead (6,000 from non-combat-related causes) and 65,000 wounded. European-descended civilian casualties exceeded 10,000 (including 3,000 dead) in 42,000 recorded terrorist incidents. According to French figures, security forces killed 141,000 rebel combatants, and more than 12,000 Algerians died in internal FLN purges during the war. An additional 5,000 died in the "café wars" in France between the FLN and rival Algerian groups. French sources also estimated that 70,000 Muslim civilians were killed, or abducted and presumed killed, by the FLN.


I can do better. Millions of Vietnamese civilians died during the Vietnam war. Noone has ever been indicted for warcrimes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

Concerning Iraq, the war was started by the US-invasion, so the US is ultimately responsible. Many people, including me on this forum, predicted that this would be the outcome of this invasion. Bush can't say he didn't know...

The Soviets in Afghanistan intervened in a war which was already going on, the support the government, the US supported the Jihadists. Many casualties were Afghan on Afghan victims, or Afghan on foreign Jihadist victim, just like today in Afghanistan.

[bararallu]

It all goes to prove my point that your ICJ and UN are all useless organizations, a fig leaf for power politics. And your high moral ground arguments are as moot as your whitewashing genocides committed by a number of states. When you sort all that out, then come back and visit us here.

[takeo]

Mil



No - he does not. Europeans are very aggressive people. They just don't like Joos, minorities and each other - the reason America was created and has prospered.

Europeans (I think you mean Western Europeans) are not aggressive people. On the contrary they are pussies in general, who don't see the necessity of having an independant strong army, and don't want to serve on duty. They want the good life and take freedoms for granted but are not able or willing to defend it.
But on the other hand it's a more peaceful, civilised and more just society compared to the US. Less shoot-ready lunatics, less poverty, more and better public services, better labor conditions, more vacation, etc.




Takeo is different. He is a communist. For some reason communists have a problem with Israel.

I don't have a problem with Israel, I enjoyed being there and I can understand their pride and nationalism. And their women are gorgeous. Maybe I would even consider living there if salaries were higher. I even respect their strong mind and forcefulness. I have a problem with Israeli occupation and colonisation. If Israel withdraws from Westbank, Gaza, and East-Jerusalem my problem with Israel would be over. And I'm not alone. Even many Israeli, not only communists or leftists, say so. This is an unjust situation which can't last forever.


Traditionally communists were against any kind of nationalist movements which naturally included Zionism. The other reason for hating Zionism was that lots of Jewish intellectuals would rather contribute to the Jewish "dream" rather then Soviet one; and the Jewish dream was a lot more acceptable to the mostly destitute Jewish masses. However, after the borders were closed in the mid-20 this disappeared as a problem. It re surged following the establishment of Israel which USSR supported and which Stalin hoped would take Soviet side given so many cultural similarities. It did not happen - Ben Gurion and the people who created Israel knew exactly what they would get into. Stalin got overly upset, especially when Golda was greeted by tens of thousands of Jews in front of an only Moscow synagogue, on the and initiated a public anti-Zionist/anti-Jewish campaign which became known today as the "Doctor's plot." Zionism became synonymous with fascism. Following 1967 war when Israel completely destroyed all Soviet ME allies armed with Soviet weapons in bare 6 days anti-Zionism became the thing! Polish anti-Zionist thing was a lot more agressive - they simply threw out most of the remaining Jews from Poland ( I have a good book on that).

So it sort of stayed with communists as an official party line. Many prominent Soviet Jews, who happened to be devout communists, spoke out publicly against Zionism. An organization called Anti-Zionist Committee was created chaired by prominent Soviet Jews headed by WWII hero General-Colonel David Dragunsky, Bolshoi prima-ballerina Maya Plesetskaya (she now says that she was threatened by authorities to participate), and a number of others. This was a pretty idiotic organization as a majority of Soviet Jews did not take it seriously and it generated a large number of jokes.

I'm not going into any details because it would be too much off-topic. But indeed Israel choose to side with the US and ally itself with European colonialism. That's when the hostility began. But you can't claim that the Soviet-Union or communists are or ever have been anti-semites.
Nevertheless, that's not the reason why I support the Palestinians. It's just an unjust situation. When I was younger I also engaged in pro-Kurdish activism, or I wrote articles in high school newspapers against the "oppression of minority languages" in France. I also demonstrated against Le Pen when he said that the "Holocaust was a detail in history".

[takeo]

Takeo is a strange example for a communist. He is a Jewish-Russian nationalist who was born in France. Really weird.

It's true I am very russophile, altough I never lived there. Is that a crime?
I love visiting the former Soviet-Union, and anyone going there will see that the image in the West has been distorted. It's not paradise, never was, but they are people who are very proud of their country and who think the demise of the Soviet-Union was a bad development, eventough the Soviet-Union was far from perfect. Nowhere in the world will you meet more generous, hospital and cordial people than in the former Soviet-Union, if you get to know them. They are also interesting, intelligent people who enjoy life and have a "soul". There are, of course, also disadvantages: official corruption, unpredictablility, carelessnes, "randomness", alcoholism, brutality and lack of civilisation in some cases. You are never sure of anything. But I still like them. They can be your best friend or your worst ennemy.
Still I don't think I'm a Russian nationalist. Because I'm not Russian and because I'm against nationalism. I think ideally there should be a new union between ex-Soviet-republics. But not a complete return to the stalinist past, more a kind of mixed Chinese-style communism. Putin is better than Yeltsin but still far too corrupted and thugish.



Our local nationalist Takeo cannot even understand that turning off gas to Ukraine in the middle of a winter is purely the thing a Russian-Putin vindictive mindset would do. If he would be born in Russia he would understand.

Of course I understand. He wants to terminate and punish Iouchtchenko and his supporters with all means available, and bring his proxies to power. But that is not uniquely Russian, the US did the same with Cuba and other dissident states in their backyard. And Putin is doing it intelligently, since technically you can't criticise his decision to let Ukraine pay market-prices.
Officially the US is very concerned about the territorial integrity of Georgia, officially it's not about intervening in Russia's backyard and weakening Russia... just the same, that's called diplomacy, and Putin is very good at it, better than Bush.





He sees what he wants to see. Not that he cares. I don't take him seriously especially when the likes of him try to prove to me that Fidel's Cuba, a place where descending Takeo would get f**ed in the buttocks by some over-enthusiastic security professional, is paradise on Earth.

I never said that Cuba is paradise on earth. It is most certainly not. But neither is Saakashvili's Georgia paradise on earth... nor any neighbouring country of Cuba such as Dominican republic or Haiti. Cuba's system has advantages and disadvantages, it's not a living hell and not paradise either.
But in general the Soviet-Union was much more succesfull than the Cuban system, not to mention China.

[takeo]

Because we actually respect civilians, like we respect life itself, and don't put them in harms way.

You only respect your own civilians, not Palestinian civilians, not even Israeli Arab civilians which you want to displace from their land and house.

[bararallu]

You only respect your own civilians, not Palestinian civilians, not even Israeli Arab civilians which you want to displace from their land and house.

And you fabricate facts and lie as a bird sings. I'm comfortable being me, you be comfortable being you, Judenrat.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

Europeans (I think you mean Western Europeans) are not aggressive people.

You mean 2000 years of European history down the drain? Only 60 years ago you people almost destroyed yourselves. The colonial wars only ended 40 years ago.

On the contrary they are pussies in general, who don't see the necessity of having an independant strong army, and don't want to serve on duty.

Of course - America does it for them.

They want the good life and take freedoms for granted but are not able or willing to defend it.

Yeah - at Americas financial, military, and political expense. If it wasn't for USA Europe would gone into WWIII just to resolve all the cr**p of WWII.

But on the other hand it's a more peaceful, civilised and more just society compared to the US.

Been responsible for killing over 100 million people within a time period of some 60 and destroying each other twice!!!! sort of does it to people on would hope. Not to mention that before US actually stopped all this cr**P in Europe - your favorite continent had large wars with a periodicity of 25-30 years accompanied by political instabilities, massacres and bloodletting, economic failures of each and every kind . All this cr**p was the reason why America became America.

Less shoot-ready lunatics, less poverty, more and better public services, better labor conditions, more vacation, etc.

All is relative. France is no Sweden and Sweden is no US. There are pluses and minuses in all the systems.... but for some reason most people prefer to immigrate to USA if they can and not to Europe.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

I have a problem with Israeli occupation and colonisation.

Ever look at the map? Israel is a size of New Hampshire (smaller), and West Bank is a bit bigger then Paris with suburbs.


If Israel withdraws from Westbank, Gaza, and East-Jerusalem my problem with Israel would be over.

Why should it?

And I'm not alone. Even many Israeli, not only communists or leftists, say so. This is an unjust situation which can't last forever.

It is an unjust situation created by Arabs. I agree. They created it and they should solve it. And there are a lot more Arabs then Israelis.... and Arabs have a lot more political power.

I'm not going into any details because it would be too much off-topic. But indeed Israel choose to side with the US and ally itself with European colonialism.

? What European colonialism exactly? Whom did Israel colonize in 1948? In fact most of the Western States, except USA (who were not European colonialists), all other Western European countries which had colonies either did not vote for the creation of Israel in the UN or abstained. In 1948 Europe was very unfriendly to Jews and Stalin was rightly trying to play on that. For a very long time Europe was very unfriendly to Israel and some countries still are; it was a lot worse back then - A LOT! The only Western European country that truely and strongly supported Israel was the Netherlands everyone else either shied away or wanted to have no relations what so ever. For example Spain and Israel, Portugal and Israel, Greece and Israel. Spain had colonial holdings in Africa for a very long time. British relations were always very precarious going from Government to Government and depending British ever-warrying standing in its former colonial holdings, France was out-right hostile starting with 1967.... Israel sided with USA.

That's when the hostility began. But you can't claim that the Soviet-Union or communists are or ever have been anti-semites.

Of course there are and there were many communists anti-semites. Millions of examples. As to the Soviet Union they f***ed up bad with their policies in the Middle East and are responsible for much of the mass including of what happened in 1967.

Nevertheless, that's not the reason why I support the Palestinians. It's just an unjust situation. When I was younger I also engaged in pro-Kurdish activism, or I wrote articles in high school newspapers against the "oppression of minority languages" in France. I also demonstrated against Le Pen when he said that the "Holocaust was a detail in history".

Good for you. How about Russian invasion of Chechnya in 1994 and 1999? Or the genocide in Sudan or all the blood-letting in former Yugoslavia?


It's true I am very russophile, altough I never lived there. Is that a crime?

Nope. You just don't understand the place which you think you know.

who think the demise of the Soviet-Union was a bad development, eventough the Soviet-Union was far from perfect.

You think or they think? It was a cra***p-hole.

Still I don't think I'm a Russian nationalist. Because I'm not Russian and because I'm against nationalism.

We had these discussions before.

I think ideally there should be a new union between ex-Soviet-republics.

:) There was a reason why they separated and much of it had to do with things that you wouldn't understand.

But not a complete return to the stalinist past, more a kind of mixed Chinese-style communism. Putin is better than Yeltsin but still far too corrupted and thugish.

:) Chinese-style communism - a place where BBC site is blocked?


Of course I understand. He wants to terminate and punish Iouchtchenko and his supporters with all means available, and bring his proxies to power. But that is not uniquely Russian, the US did the same with Cuba and other dissident states in their backyard.

No. What happened in Cuba was that Castro nationalized American industry, all of it, and then invited the Soviets. However, America never turned off Cuban gas supplies - as there never any :) But tell me what are you referring to exactly?

And Putin is doing it intelligently, since technically you can't criticise his decision to let Ukraine pay market-prices.

Dude - people are not stupid especially European politicians and European public, and especially international business. Everyone knows that these are geopolitical games and that Russia is not a reliable business partner. In any case Bulgaria already declared state of emergency.


Officially the US is very concerned about the territorial integrity of Georgia, officially it's not about intervening in Russia's backyard and weakening Russia... just the same, that's called diplomacy, and Putin is very good at it, better than Bush.

? What are you talking about? What did Putin do exactly? First he selected his successor, then he became #2 to his successor, and then he extended president term by 2 years! Do you think international Democratic establishments are idiots? Do you think they don't know who they deal with? Russia's economy is already in great boo-boo after the oil prices fell and now Putin playing gas politics is only going to make it even worse for Russia. With the fragile state of global economy nobody is going to invest into a country which could change laws to fit its rulers or turn off gas supplies just to resolve a geo-political conflict (or rather something on the order of influencing elections in sovereign neighbor states). Especially this is not going to be appreciated by the likes of China who really would not count to three on such matters. If anything Putin is a complete dufus....


I never said that Cuba is paradise on earth. It is most certainly not. But neither is Saakashvili's Georgia paradise on earth... nor any neighbouring country of Cuba such as Dominican republic or Haiti.

Or Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Aruba, Barbados and a number of others..... Don't compare apples and oranges. Georgians have their freedom which counts for a lot and are not restricted from owning computers. But if you are comparing I am more then positive my salary is bigger then yours, my personal standard of living is better then yours, and I can definitely afford and get more stuff then you can. It's all relative... you know.


Cuba's system has advantages and disadvantages, it's not a living hell and not paradise either.

It's a cr***P-hole. If Castro would open borders half of Cuba would quickly relocate a hundred kilometers to the North.

But in general the Soviet-Union was much more succesfull than the Cuban system, not to mention China.

:) What are you comparing? Soviet Union came into existence in 1918 following a bloody civil war which took lives of over 20,000,000. Then came a dictator who was responsible for another 20,000,000 (if one takes Golodomor and collectivization into account), then came WWII, deportations and expulsion of entire ethnic groups!!!!, then post war terror including clearly anti-semitic Doctor's Plot, then three decades of idiotic rule which drove the entire country into an economic, political, and social hole. In the 1980s everyone was tired of USSR. People wanted bananas, VCRs, cars, bank accounts, and most importantly they wanted to KNOW of the place where they lived. But if you are comparing CUBA to USSR then of course - USSR was, for example, till 1990 the second LARGEST producer of Oil in the world after Saudi Arabia. Russia is rich with resources. As to China :) Dude - why are you comparing apples and oranges. How about USSR and USA? I remember as a child we always were told in school that we must do better then the Americans!!! We must beat them in everything. Now looking back at all this - it all sounds very funny but when it was adult teachers who were probably themselves embarrassed to tell us this - it was a different story. You need to watch some of the Soviet movies made in Russia in late 80s and early 90s. Get something like the famous "Inter-Devochka" or "Malenkaya Vera"... tons of movies.

[Yala]

Yal

why is Ramallah different? Have you ever been there? I can say that Ramallah appears to be a relatively peaceful and civilised place.

No desire, but I have friends who lived there. As I said it's a fairly open minded place, for the Arab world. It is, after all, the headquarters of the Fatah elite.



Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city,

Oh really? Well can you provide us with the demographics? Or are you going by the "man on the street" analysis?

After you provide the demographics, please don't change your post again when you realize you made a nonsense statement, like the one involving Serbia.


But of course the situation remains that anyone entering and leaving Rammalah to go to Jerusalem (in reality Ramallah is a suburb of East-Jerusalem.... especially the old city, and completely different from West-Jerusalem) has to endure humiliating checkpoints and controlls by teenager Israeli soldiers with sunglasses. In their own land.

With sunglasses? You don't say...


We stayed in East-Jerusalem, near Damascus gate, in a guesthouse with slogans against "Israeli imperialism". (just coincidence, the cheapest place in a very expensive city). ALL Palestinians, including in East-Jerusalem, want an independant state. On the other hand I was surprised to see that orthodox Jews went to the Palestinian bazars in East-Jerusalem to shop around, and ate in Palestinian restaurants, without any problems.

Orthodox Jews eating in non-kosher restaurants? Very interesting.



So you don't? You would agree with a Palestinian state in East-Jerusalem, Westbank and Gaza if that would bring peace? That's quite different from many other posters here.


Do you mean genuine peace or the peace you're speaking of? Genuine peace, yes.


What Arabic versions, when and where? I prefere to take repeated official declarations on many occasions as a source, instead of rumors.

Rumors are that he was gay and had AIDS. These jihad declarations are documented and videotaped. Stop being lazy. If you want to find these they're readily available. Even on Youtube.


Such as the Vietnam-war for example? The reason they couldn't intervene was because one of the UN security council members prevented intervention.

So again I ask, if they can't intervene in wars or famine, or genocide, what's their purpose?



I think you can't compare the achievements of Unicef, UNAIDS, etc. to NGO's.

Why not?



Those scandals are a piece of cake compared to the scandals during unilateral US interventions, such as the war in Iraq or Vietnam.

Are we comparing the UN to the US now?



We all see the results. Unilateral operations such as the Soviet-invasion of Afghanistan or US-invasion of Iraq are more likely to fail, because there's no international support and coordination.

Perhaps.


There's a difference. An international court means that all states and their subjects should be equal and have the same rights and obligations, which is not the case. But for the UN to function, not all states should be equal, but at least it's a forum for international cooperation and ending conflicts.

But your argument about the IC is that they are hijacked by political bodies and as I said the same argument could be made about the UN.



That's the strenght of the UN.

If they can't stop a genocide or a war then in my eyes they are irrelevant and frankly not "strong" at all.


When the US-intervention in Iraq derailed completely (exactly because it was unilateral) Bush begged other nations to help them, and the UN to step in. He even sought help from Iran and Syria, as did the Iraqi government. The unilateralist interventionist neocons lost every support because their theories proved to be catastrophic.

I am not going to defend Bush's job in Iraq. If you want to discuss Iraq start a new thread in the forum.



Not really, only in words. GWB did nothing to really solve the problem, did nothing to pressure Israel and always unilaterally supported Israel.

But Obama's stated positions are not different from GWB. He is probably Pro-Palestinian, you're right, but there is no sympathy for Palestinians in this country. In poll after poll favorable opinions of them are in the single digits. Even the ones who hate Israel, hate them as well. If he is shown to be too pro-Pal it can cost him here, while winning him lots of fans in Europe.



At least his ideas are quite radical, and very new in the US. He was accused, even by Clinton-supporters, to be too far to the left. He hope they will be materialised.

Yet he chose a very centrist cabinet. He wants to please everybody. He is what we call a political chameleon. He even called for a united Jerusalem belonging to Israel, and then backtracked.


That's why Americans voted for him, they want a big change!

They want an end to the war, free healthcare, not your dreams from Das Kapital.


Not too much, but at least recession hit France much less than the US. Other more liberal economies such as Ireland, Spain and GB were hit harder. The euro remains very strong compared to both $ and £.

Wasn't Sarkozy elected to implement "a big change" to your economy?




Alternative energy is trendy, but it remains a distant dream, especially in the US, which consumes more gas and oil per inhabitant than any other nation on earth.

Maybe Obama will surprise you here.



This option has been internationally abandonned and discredited. The recent hikes in food prices, which caused famine in many countries, have been universally related to biologic fuel expansion.

Then we agree, Ethanol will not be the answer, but that says nothing of the handful of other ideas in the works. This will be a huge blow to Russia, which is why you are downplaying it so much. I understand.

[Yala]

Syria always had small sources and reserves. But Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kouweit and UAE, among others, not to mention Russia, still have tremendous unimaginable reserves that won't be exhausted in the comming decades at least. Besides, as oil and gas becomes more expensive, more and more offshore sources are being developped.

Yet some energy experts say they are facing declines in <10 years. Many times (big shock) these regimes are not honest. Kuwait, for example, was caught red-handed doubling the actual reserve numbers.

Also, it is a big deal for Syria which has high unemployment and is basically a financial disaster.



I was just responding to baralallu's theory. So you admit that his hyothetical ethnic cleansing scenario is fantasy?

I think he said that would be done in response to an Arab attack and you were twisting his words.


For the moment yes. But I wouldn't push it too far. Arab regimes are not as solid as they appear. Things are moving, especially in Egypt with widespread dissatisfaction. It seems the end of an area is becoming near the the Pharaon.
If the situation in Gaza completely gets out of control it can be dangerous for Mubarak.

Dictatorships are rarely stable. The Mukhabarat is working double time in all Arab countries. Mubarak is not a friend of Israel, although the alternative is worse. But there are worse situations in the ME, like that of Lebanon, which is a disaster in every way and can blow up at any time. This, of course, can have huge effects on Israel.





Israel can win a war with Egypt, but can't keep it occupied for long time. If Egypt would turn into another Iraq or Afghanistan, it would be a disater, not only for Israel, but for the whole world.

Of course.



no, it's in Syrian interest to have peace. When they get Golan they can present it as a big victory to their people. And there have been negociations going on untill the latest Gaza war. Moreover, Assad declared he want to recognise Israel in return for the Golan.

Assad's father was very smart. People thought the son was dumb, but he is proving to be one of the smartest leaders in the ME. They have played all the sides very well. Whether Assad can save his country economically is another story. They may have to rape Lebanon again. Time will tell.




He offered only part of it.

Maybe Rabin offered all of it? I'll have to do the research and get back to you.



When was the last time Al-Aqsa attacked Israel with rockets? (eventough they have rockets, more then Hamas).


They attacked Israel in 2007. I think they have been busy with fighting Hamas recently so maybe they had their hands tied, so to speak.


As long as negociations were going on, it keeps quite. Whenever negociations break down, they will fight. That's what happens when peace fails, than war restarts. So it's in Israel's interests to make peace happen.

Semi-quiet, sure.


not really, they are better off than during the 80's. At least now every nation on earth, including the current Israeli leadership (Olmert said so), realises the occupation is not going to last forever and that a Palestinian state based on the green line is going to be erected sooner or later. And at least they have some independance right now, which was completely lacking during the '80's.
In the '80's noone in Israel wanted to abandon the occupied territories.

Well maybe they are closer to self-rule but their situation has deteriorated immensely. I think the more honest ones would admit to it. And after this second intifadah they are in a terrible place. You can't even compare it to the life they had before.




The problem started before the occupation of course, since two peoples fight for the same territory. But now most Palestinians and Israeli accepted the two-state solution as only realistic solution. Olmert specifically said the colonies and occupation are part of the problem, not of the solution. Problem is that unnecessary bloodshet such as in Gaza will diminish the number of Israeli and Palestinians wishing peace with each other, and increase the number supporting extremists.

You give a lot of credit to Olmert. You must have a thing for corrupt politicians.


In any case, it's not realistic that there will be 2 million Palestinians in Israel proper and no Jews in Palestine proper.



I don't think so. Israel is, even with billions of american support, not such a wealthy nation. I noticed that last year as well. Many Israeli peopel struggle to make ends meet. Salaries are low compared to the price of life, at least compared to Western-Europe or the US. That's why some return to Europe and even to Russia.


For a new country they are in amazing shape. Israeli people see Jews living very well in America,for ex., and naturally want that life, which they see as easier. Some return to Russia, but the amount of non-Jews trying to forge papers to get to Israel far outweighs the reverse.


I also noticed the military is part of life of every Israeli. Even in the youthhotel near the Death Sea 16-year old children were carrying automatic guns.

Maybe they looked 16, but they were 18+.


And the military and occupation is draining the budget. And what will Israel do without acces to sophisticated American weapons?

Israel has their own sophisticated weapons. More like what will America do w/o the Isrealis. And if it happened, Israel could turn around and sell to China, which they are not allowed to do now.


and because I'm against nationalism.

So you are anti-nationalism except when it comes to the Palestinians. How interesting.


Nevertheless, that's not the reason why I support the Palestinians. It's just an unjust situation. When I was younger I also engaged in pro-Kurdish activism, or I wrote articles in high school newspapers against the "oppression of minority languages" in France. I also demonstrated against Le Pen when he said that the "Holocaust was a detail in history".

Well gosh do you wear a keffiyeh too? :) But seriously, it's good to see activism is a full time hobby for you. If the PI conflict is ever solved, who do you think you'll protest next?

[takeo]

Mil




You mean 2000 years of European history down the drain? Only 60 years ago you people almost destroyed yourselves. The colonial wars only ended 40 years ago.

You always look in the past. I can start about the US genocide against native Americans if you want ...


Of course - America does it for them.

That's very uncomfortable, France wants a European army.


Yeah - at Americas financial, military, and political expense. If it wasn't for USA Europe would gone into WWIII just to resolve all the cr**p of WWII.

No. Western Europe learned to resolve its conflict peacefully. De EU was a great experiment that nothing in the world can equal. I can't see in the future that the US will absolish all borders with Mexico for example and an intergovernemental body will decide about the common economic and financial policy of Mexico, the US and canada, or that they will adopt one single currency. On the contrary the US is building a wall!



Been responsible for killing over 100 million people within a time period of some 60 and destroying each other twice!!!!

Again, if you look at the past you can find quite some interesting facts about the US as well... difference is that the US is STILL causing wars, such as in Iraq, and trying to colonise countries. Europe got past that colonial experience.





sort of does it to people on would hope. Not to mention that before US actually stopped all this cr**P in Europe - your favorite continent had large wars with a periodicity of 25-30 years accompanied by political instabilities, massacres and bloodletting, economic failures of each and every kind . All this cr**p was the reason why America became America.

When was the last war in Western Europe? The EU even managed to turn fascist and poor countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece into prosperous democracies. Now it's trying to do the same with Turkey and Eastern European countries.




All is relative. France is no Sweden and Sweden is no US. There are pluses and minuses in all the systems.... but for some reason most people prefer to immigrate to USA if they can and not to Europe.

All of Africa, and a lot of Asia and Latin America would immigrate to the EU or the US if they had the chance. Spain and Italy are constantly patrolling their southern borders in search of illegal refugees.

[takeo]

Mil


Ever look at the map? Israel is a size of New Hampshire (smaller), and West Bank is a bit bigger then Paris with suburbs.


And the Shoah killed fewer people than there are inhabitants of Paris or Chicago, what's your point exactly?



Why should it?

Because it doesn't belong to Israel. It is not recognised as a part of Israel, not even by its closest allies. And its mainly inhabited by Palestinians who are no Israeli citizens and want to be Israeli citizens.



It is an unjust situation created by Arabs. I agree. They created it and they should solve it. And there are a lot more Arabs then Israelis.... and Arabs have a lot more political power.

It's not created by the Arabs, noone forced Israel to keep it occupied, and colonise it. That was a deliberate Israeli choice. Noone equally forced Israel to ethnically cleanse most Palestinians from israel. And Israel, trough the US, has more political power than the Arab world.




? What European colonialism exactly? Whom did Israel colonize in 1948?

Israel sided with English and French colonialists who wanted to take back the strategic Suez channel.



In fact most of the Western States, except USA (who were not European colonialists), all other Western European countries which had colonies either did not vote for the creation of Israel in the UN or abstained. In 1948 Europe was very unfriendly to Jews and Stalin was rightly trying to play on that. For a very long time Europe was very unfriendly to Israel and some countries still are; it was a lot worse back then - A LOT! The only Western European country that truely and strongly supported Israel was the Netherlands everyone else either shied away or wanted to have no relations what so ever.

Israel got nukes from France.... isn't that a friendly gesture or what?



For example Spain and Israel, Portugal and Israel, Greece and Israel.

These were, at that time, fascist countries.



Spain had colonial holdings in Africa for a very long time. British relations were always very precarious going from Government to Government and depending British ever-warrying standing in its former colonial holdings, France was out-right hostile starting with 1967.... Israel sided with USA.

Zionists were attacking Brits by what you would call terrorist actions, of course they didn't appreciate that.
France only changed its attitude after Israel started the occupation and colonisation in 1967.



Of course there are and there were many communists anti-semites. Millions of examples. As to the Soviet Union they f***ed up bad with their policies in the Middle East and are responsible for much of the mass including of what happened in 1967.

Give me an example of an anti-semitic (which is of course not the same as anti-zionist) communist? Karl Marx himself was a Jew, so were many soviet leaders. The Soviet-Union liberated the Jews from tsarist oppression.




Good for you. How about Russian invasion of Chechnya in 1994 and 1999? Or the genocide in Sudan or all the blood-letting in former Yugoslavia?

These are serious matters too, but it doesn't mean we should just forget about the Palestinians. If you compare to Chechnya or Sudan, than Israel's security problem is non-existant, and 11/09 was equally unimportant. Besides this is an international conflict, while the examples you gave are internal conflicts.




Nope. You just don't understand the place which you think you know.

Well, when was the last time you went to Russia or the former Soviet-Union?
It's not because you lived there untill 8 that you understand much about the current situation in the former Soviet-Union. I went to Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kasakhstan, Russia, Ukraine and Moldova quite recently. I went everywhere and talked to many people.



You think or they think? It was a cra***p-hole.

They think. There is lots of Soviet-nostalgia. Compared to your current life in the US, maybe so. (altough I know equally some migrants, especially in Israel, who want to return) But compared to the current daily life in the former Soviet-Union (I'm talking about the majority, not the new rich and middle class) it wasn't. As you said yourself you can't compare apples and oranges.


:) There was a reason why they separated and much of it had to do with things that you wouldn't understand.

the reason was called Gorbatchov, who is absolutely despised in the former Soviet-Union. Today you see that countries like Russia, Kasakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Belarus constantly intensify their cooperation.
If you land on Domodedovo for example you'll see that citizens from these countries don't need a visum to enter Russia, and that in reality it doesn't feel as if you're in another country if you go from Ekaterinburg to Bishkek, Almaty or Dnyepropetrovsk for example.




:) Chinese-style communism - a place where BBC site is blocked?

Who cares?


No. What happened in Cuba was that Castro nationalized American industry, all of it, and then invited the Soviets. However, America never turned off Cuban gas supplies - as there never any :) But tell me what are you referring to exactly?

That was an autonomous Cuban decision, the US didn't own Cuba, just like Russia doesn't own Ukraine. The US didn't want Cuba to pay market prices in return, it just blocked the entire trade between the two nations for 45 years already, hoping to strangle the entire economy. Tourists from "the land of the free" are not permitted to visit Cuba on holiday or they risk prosecution... (only one week ago the entire Latin American community condamned that policy once more, including Mexico). I don't see how you can defend that while at the same time criticising Russia... maybe you have two different sets of values and standards... one for the US and Israel, and one for the rest of the world...

[takeo]

Dude - people are not stupid especially European politicians and European public, and especially international business. Everyone knows that these are geopolitical games and that Russia is not a reliable business partner. In any case Bulgaria already declared state of emergency.

They know, but they don't have any choice. Besides, Russia is building pipelines in the Baltic and black sea.




? What are you talking about? What did Putin do exactly? First he selected his successor, then he became #2 to his successor, and then he extended president term by 2 years! Do you think international Democratic establishments are idiots? Do you think they don't know who they deal with?

they know, but who cares? In Russia very few people care about democracy. They are very happy to be rid of Yeltsin, who was by the way not a democrat either. The only real opposition party in the communist party. And the West, including the US, deals with dictators all over the world, without any moral problem at all. On the contrary some dictators are actively supported.


Russia's economy is already in great boo-boo after the oil prices fell

US' economy is also in great boo-boo


and now Putin playing gas politics is only going to make it even worse for Russia.

No, they'll collect more money.


With the fragile state of global economy nobody is going to invest into a country which could change laws to fit its rulers or turn off gas supplies just to resolve a geo-political conflict (or rather something on the order of influencing elections in sovereign neighbor states).

Yet foreign investment in Russia increased with more than 30% each year since 2001. But Ukraine, with an unstable government and unable to pay the gas-bills, is much worse off than Russia. Not to mention Georgia, where many people don't even have reliable electricity.





Especially this is not going to be appreciated by the likes of China who really would not count to three on such matters. If anything Putin is a complete dufus....

No, the alliance between Russia and China is becoming stronger every day, and trade is blossoming like never before in history. Russia and china are even holding joint military exercises these days, and are united in the Shangai treaty. They also have the same policy concerning world matters.





Or Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Aruba, Barbados and a number of others..... Don't compare apples and oranges.

These are ministates and offshore destinations for people escaping taxes where only a few 1000's live, not real states. Puerto Rico is part of the US, Aruba of the Netherlands. If you want to compare Cuba with another state, it has most in common with Dominican republic.





Georgians have their freedom which counts for a lot and are not restricted from owning computers.

They have no more freedom than in Russia, even less, Saakashvili has been called a dictator by his own people. Just imagine he closed opposition channels, and send the police to beat opposition demonstrations. And most don't even have 24-hour electricity, let alone computers. Georgia is really very very rundown, living standards are much worse than in Cuba.
You are just so very biased.



But if you are comparing I am more then positive my salary is bigger then yours, my personal standard of living is better then yours, and I can definitely afford and get more stuff then you can. It's all relative... you know.

But I'm sure you don't have 3 months vacation a year, you don't travel overseas 4 times a year, and you'll have to pay an arm and a leg to pay for your children's education or your own health care.
I could live in a bigger house, but than I would have to live in a suburb instead of Paris and spend hours in my car every day. Indeed you can't compare oranges and apples.



It's a cr***P-hole. If Castro would open borders half of Cuba would quickly relocate a hundred kilometers to the North.

Compared to the US and France, most of the world is a cr"""phole. If the US would open borders, not only half of Cuba but half of Latin America would migrate to the US. If Europe would open borders, half of Africa and Asia would come here.



:) What are you comparing? Soviet Union came into existence in 1918 following a bloody civil war which took lives of over 20,000,000. Then came a dictator who was responsible for another 20,000,000 (if one takes Golodomor and collectivization into account), then came WWII, deportations and expulsion of entire ethnic groups!!!!,

yeah it was a difficult and hard history. But the US wasn't constructed overnight either. Millions of native Americans have been slaughtered first! Also, let's never forget that a very backwards country on its knees in the 1920's got industrialised in about 20 years. Even today most of the wealth in Ukraine or Belarus is generated from Soviet industry. The complete infrastructure in the former Soviet-Union is Soviet, since 20 years nothing happened, only decay.





then post war terror including clearly anti-semitic Doctor's Plot

most people were not affected by it.


, then three decades of idiotic rule which drove the entire country into an economic, political, and social hole. In the 1980s everyone was tired of USSR. People wanted bananas, VCRs, cars, bank accounts, and most importantly they wanted to KNOW of the place where they lived.

Well, life in the Soviet-Union was not so bad. You can't compare to the West tough, Russians came from much further. In 1917 most of Russia was still living in the middle Ages, while Western europe and the US already had more than a century of industrialisation, still in 1860 70 % of the population were slaves!
maybe in the 1980's people were tired of the Soviet-Union (altough certainly not all) but in 2008 most people think that the '80's were better than today.
I agree some things got wrong, such as the distribution system, exaggerated bureaucracy, etc; but on the other hand everyone had a job, everything you need for daily life was very cheap (altough not always available), there was security, you could send your child to pioneer camps almost for free, you didn't have to work very hard, didn't have to pay rent, less alcoholism, less corruption, good and free education, system, etc.
Not only in Russia but everywhere, even in Tajikistan. Just cross the border from Tajikistan to Afghanistan and you go from the Middle Ages to the modern world.










But if you are comparing CUBA to USSR then of course - USSR was, for example, till 1990 the second LARGEST producer of Oil in the world after Saudi Arabia. Russia is rich with resources.

Yes, but it was also a very big country with more than 300 million people.




As to China :) Dude - why are you comparing apples and oranges. How about USSR and USA? I remember as a child we always were told in school that we must do better then the Americans!!! We must beat them in everything.

yeah that's just stupid propaganda, I think noone took it seriously.



Now looking back at all this - it all sounds very funny but when it was adult teachers who were probably themselves embarrassed to tell us this - it was a different story. You need to watch some of the Soviet movies made in Russia in late 80s and early 90s. Get something like the famous "Inter-Devochka" or "Malenkaya Vera"... tons of movies.

OK, OK. Russians also know how to make fun of themselves and get the irony of a certain situation.

[takeo]

Yala


No desire, but I have friends who lived there. As I said it's a fairly open minded place, for the Arab world. It is, after all, the headquarters of the Fatah elite.

You should, if you want to know what you're talking about. And than you can also experience how it's like to be humiliated by Israeli soldiers. (what are you doing here? Why do you come here? Aren't there more interesting places to visit?) Nothing will happen to you, a very secure place with friendly people, shops and good restaurants. And they even serve beer! Most Palestinians seem educated to me and many understand English, that's quite different from backwards Egypt. In the bus we had an interesting talk with a Palestinian lady who had the American nationality and came to visit her family. She told me the house of her daughter in East-Jerusalem was going to be demolished because declared "uninhabitable", which according to her was nonsense. Than she bought the house from her daughter. Because of her American nationality, the city autorities changed their mind and didn't demolish the house. She says Palestinians under Israeli rule don't have any rights, and a slow ethnic cleansing is already going on. When she saw the Israeli soldiers at the checkpoint she spit on the ground and shouted at them in Hebrew to stop questioning us. She told us that she could affort to do so because of her pasport, any Palestinian doing so would be arrested and could disappear for months. This kind of things you only get to know when you actually go there, visit the place and talk to the people.



Oh really? Well can you provide us with the demographics? Or are you going by the "man on the street" analysis?

Well, the old city inside the walls and neighbouring quarters to the east are predominantly Arab and also a lot poorer than West-Jerusalem, that's obvious for everyone who has ever been there.



After you provide the demographics, please don't change your post again when you realize you made a nonsense statement, like the one involving Serbia.

I didn't change my post. The fact remains that many Serbs have been indicted only for shelling cities.

Here are your statistics:

The study also found that about nine percent of the Old City's 32,488 people were Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem



Orthodox Jews eating in non-kosher restaurants? Very interesting.


No, I saw orthodox Jews shopping around in the old city basars, and saw secular Israeli (maybe Israeli Russians) eating in Palestinian restaurants, who have in some cases also Hebrew and English menus, especially the touristy ones. I would advise you to go to see for yourself. Sometimes everyday life is more interesting than the many fantastic historical sites.





Do you mean genuine peace or the peace you're speaking of? Genuine peace, yes.

What do you mean by genuine peace? Peace should always be genuine, which means both sides stick to their commitments.





Rumors are that he was gay and had AIDS.

whatever


These jihad declarations are documented and videotaped.

I provided the statistics you asked for, now I'm curious to see your sources. I bet you will again refer to the so-called fabricated "Stockholm-speech".



Stop being lazy. If you want to find these they're readily available. Even on Youtube.

I didn't find them, help me please.


So again I ask, if they can't intervene in wars or famine, or genocide, what's their purpose?

they can, but only if none of the permanent members of the SC veto any decision and only if there is the will to do something. But at the very least the UN is a forum for international cooperation in many fields. So yes there's a benefit.





Are we comparing the UN to the US now?

I'm comparing UN-interventions to unilateral interventions, yes.




But your argument about the IC is that they are hijacked by political bodies and as I said the same argument could be made about the UN.

Not really, since in the UN all countries have a seat and a vote, not only one group. That makes it more difficult to hijack the UN for any particular political cause.

[takeo]

If they can't stop a genocide or a war then in my eyes they are irrelevant and frankly not "strong" at all.

They stopped quite a few wars, such as recently the war in Congo (not completely finished but at least there aren't any millions dying as just a few years ago), Eastern Timor, Cambodia, or in Ivory Coast. They stopped the occupation of Kouweit, and ended the war in Bosnia. It's all far from perfect, but better than nothing. The only alternative is unilateral interventions. We all saw in Iraq that this isn't necessarily a better option, at all.








I am not going to defend Bush's job in Iraq. If you want to discuss Iraq start a new thread in the forum.

OK, but Iraq shows very clearly that the UN is necessary. This unilateral war was a disaster. I had this same discussion on this forum in 2003, ask any poster here who has been around then, I was told that the US could easily do it alone and didn't need the UN or "old" Europe, that it would be a piece of cake and that Iraq would become an shining example for the entire Arab world (I think it was MG8 if I remember well). And that the US was much more capable of searching for WMD than any boring UN-inspectors from europe. It were the highdays of interventionism and neo-cons. Now most of them are quiet on the subject...




But Obama's stated positions are not different from GWB. He is probably Pro-Palestinian, you're right, but there is no sympathy for Palestinians in this country. In poll after poll favorable opinions of them are in the single digits. Even the ones who hate Israel, hate them as well. If he is shown to be too pro-Pal it can cost him here, while winning him lots of fans in Europe.

But he knows that it's not about sympathy, but about strategic goals. He knows peace in the middle East is good for the US (where the US has lots of interests and where stability and good relations with Arab states are necessary)and a two-state solution the only realistic option. Bush didn't care much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he let it rot for years.






Yet he chose a very centrist cabinet. He wants to please everybody. He is what we call a political chameleon. He even called for a united Jerusalem belonging to Israel, and then backtracked.


That's only to win the elections. As you said pro-Palestinian views are not very popular in the US. But he is also a leftist somehow (at least according to all his democratic and republican adversaries), and he repeatedly said the Palestinian issue will be a priority during his period in office.




They want an end to the war, free healthcare, not your dreams from Das Kapital.

that's right.




Wasn't Sarkozy elected to implement "a big change" to your economy?

not really to the economy, people wanted a tougher president as a result of the massive riots wich shook the big cities. Sarkozy is not doing so bad, and his economic policy is not really any different from his predecessors.





Maybe Obama will surprise you here.

We'll see. I don't expect much, just a positive change compared to the Bush-years.







Then we agree, Ethanol will not be the answer, but that says nothing of the handful of other ideas in the works. This will be a huge blow to Russia, which is why you are downplaying it so much. I understand.


Which ideas? And how real is it? Here in Europe we are a lot more advanced in this subject, but still nothing could replace gas or oil.

[Toadstool46]

The Battle for Gaza... Its about time Israel started to defend their own. Not many contries would have sat by doing relatively nothing for so long while others fired rockets randomly into thier land. How long do you think other countries would hold out before took action.

The problem, as always is the use of human shields. Lets put our rockets, explosives, guns and amo in this school, church, shopping center. Lets put all the people on the roof to stop the building from being bombed.

The Arabs were given the Gaza to live and work and enjoy a civilized life. Not to use it as a staging ground for immorral acts of terror against Israel.

These people are immature, uncultrured, naive, arrogant, selfish, violent and ignorant. They say they will agree on peace if they get more land. What they mean is all of it including ALL of what Israel has. Translation. We will agree to peace with you if you cease to exist. GOOD One.

Go Israel... take the whole thing back and rid the world of all this yak yak yak.. Then tell them that the west bank and golan are not negotiable either.

[takeo]

Yala


Yet some energy experts say they are facing declines in <10 years.

Any credible sources?


Many times (big shock) these regimes are not honest. Kuwait, for example, was caught red-handed doubling the actual reserve numbers.

But many more sources and reserves are being discovered every day, such as offshore the Angolan coast or in Northern Siberia.



Also, it is a big deal for Syria which has high unemployment and is basically a financial disaster.


Not really. Living standards are a lot higher in Syria compared to Egypt. Unemployment is currently high because cheap refugees from Iraq (more than a million, that's a lot in such a small country, a forgotten tragedy and heavy burden for Syria) are taking in the cheap jobs. Guess who's to blame for that?
If you don't believe me there are plenty of sources about Iraqi refugees in syria and the social problems they cause.





I think he said that would be done in response to an Arab attack and you were twisting his words.

No, I don't think so. He is all for ethnic cleansing and said so openly.



Dictatorships are rarely stable. The Mukhabarat is working double time in all Arab countries. Mubarak is not a friend of Israel, although the alternative is worse. But there are worse situations in the ME, like that of Lebanon, which is a disaster in every way and can blow up at any time. This, of course, can have huge effects on Israel.

Dictatorships in the Middle East are more stable than democracies.
Lebanon is the only real democracy in the Arab world.



Assad's father was very smart. People thought the son was dumb, but he is proving to be one of the smartest leaders in the ME. They have played all the sides very well. Whether Assad can save his country economically is another story. They may have to rape Lebanon again. Time will tell.


First of all they have to get rid of the many Iraqi refugees.






They attacked Israel in 2007. I think they have been busy with fighting Hamas recently so maybe they had their hands tied, so to speak.

Since the newest peace negociations started between Olmert and Abbas, they didn't attack Israel.




Well maybe they are closer to self-rule but their situation has deteriorated immensely. I think the more honest ones would admit to it. And after this second intifadah they are in a terrible place. You can't even compare it to the life they had before.

Well, at least in the Westbank it's not so dramatic. And was it good before the Intifadeh? They had no rights, occupied by Israel but not Israeli citizens...
And every war is hard, but the goal is a better future and a Palestinian state. The sooner Israel agrees, the sooner there will be peace and the sooner their life will improve.

[takeo]

You give a lot of credit to Olmert. You must have a thing for corrupt politicians.

Netanyahu has also been charged in the past I seem to recall... so did the son of Sharon...



In any case, it's not realistic that there will be 2 million Palestinians in Israel proper and no Jews in Palestine proper.

Why not? Israel is a lot bigger than Palestine. Unless of course Israel wants to cede the areas with an Arab majority to Palestine, than in return Palestinians can cede some settlements near Jerusalem.





For a new country they are in amazing shape.

Really? Many Israeli seem to disagree. Life is a lot harder than in France for example.


Israeli people see Jews living very well in America,for ex., and naturally want that life, which they see as easier.

Some return to France as well.



Some return to Russia, but the amount of non-Jews trying to forge papers to get to Israel far outweighs the reverse.

The fact alone that some Israeli return to a relatively poor country like Russia is telling...




Maybe they looked 16, but they were 18+.

Yes, but still in Europe, and I think in the US as well, there are no automatic guns allowed in youthhostels...


Israel has their own sophisticated weapons. More like what will America do w/o the Isrealis.

:lol: Oh come on, please be serious...



And if it happened, Israel could turn around and sell to China, which they are not allowed to do now.

China is developping their own defense industry at a very fast rate.


So you are anti-nationalism except when it comes to the Palestinians. How interesting.

even not. I would also prefere one big Jewish-palestinian federation. But I know it's no realistic and Israel doesn't want that. So the two-state solution is the only option left.

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo
So the two-state solution is the only option left.

I absolutely agree with you - the "Palestinians" belong in Jordan. That was the original two-state solution.

[takeo]

I absolutely agree with you - the "Palestinians" belong in Jordan. That was the original two-state solution.

That means genociding the Palestinians who lived for many centuries in Palestine. It's worse than Hamas. If that's your goal, than you are a nazi and you deserve destruction and death yourself. If the majority in Israel think like that (fortunately they don't) there will never and should never be peace for Israel, but eternal violence.
I think such ideas should be punished by law, just like denial of the Genocide, and people who propose it deserve to spend their days in jail.

[Yala]

Yala



You should, if you want to know what you're talking about.

Dude, you're arguing with yourself here. Either that or you are reading from a script. Did I say Ramallah was a backwards place or did I say it was relatively open-minded?


This kind of things you only get to know when you actually go there, visit the place and talk to the people.


As I said, I know people who actually lived there, not went there for a few days, heard a few stories and then considered themselves an expert.



Well, the old city inside the walls and neighbouring quarters to the east are predominantly Arab and also a lot poorer than West-Jerusalem, that's obvious for everyone who has ever been there.

Here are your statistics:

The study also found that about nine percent of the Old City's 32,488 people were Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

Your original words:



Originally posted by Takeo
Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city

Hmmm, why didn't you post the demographics for the city of Jerusalem? At least be man enough to admit you were wrong. In any case, I don't think you even believed it when you wrote it the first time. That's only my opinion, of course.


I didn't change my post.


:lol:

Were these not your original words?;


Originally posted by Takeo
"Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants."


which you changed to:



Originally posted by Takeo
"Some Serbs (see my link above) have also been convicted for the indiscriminate shelling of Sarajevo and other cities."


You see when I asked in the forum why you changed your posts, and you didn't answer so another poster emailed me the changes. They didn't want to get into it with you because they realized what was going on and didn't want to take it further. Are they lying?
.



No, I saw orthodox Jews shopping around in the old city basars, and saw secular Israeli (maybe Israeli Russians) eating in Palestinian restaurants,

Again, that's not what you wrote. This is what you wrote:



Originally posted by Takeo:
On the other hand I was surprised to see that orthodox Jews went to the Palestinian bazars in East-Jerusalem to shop around, and ate in Palestinian restaurants,

No mention of secular Israelis, who of course would be the only Jews to eat in non-kosher restaurants.


who have in some cases also Hebrew and English menus, especially the touristy ones. I would advise you to go to see for yourself. Sometimes everyday life is more interesting than the many fantastic historical sites.

I've been there many times but thanks for the tourist advice.



What do you mean by genuine peace? Peace should always be genuine, which means both sides stick to their commitments.

Peace should mean peace and not peace with jihad in 10 years.


whatever

Why are you getting so emotional? I said they were just rumors. Besides, is there something wrong with being gay?


I provided the statistics you asked for,

No, you didn't.



now I'm curious to see your sources. I bet you will again refer to the so-called fabricated "Stockholm-speech".


I didn't find them,

Really, you are just being lazy now...
Washington Post:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-891610.html
Calling for jihad in South Africa

http://www.adl.org/presrele/IslEx_61/2841_61.asp
Calling for jihad in Dehaishe refugee camp.

And there is one that I had of him yelling about jihad on youtube. I'll have to locate it. In any case, this is from using google for 2 minutes. Surely, you can do better.



help me please.


I think you are beyond help my friend.:rolleyes:


Not really, since in the UN all countries have a seat and a vote, not only one group. That makes it more difficult to hijack the UN for any particular political cause.

Oh sure, cause the Arab block can't hijack the UN for their various agendas? How about the worst human rights violators chairing UN human rights commissions? Is this acceptable or even moral?

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo

That means genociding the Palestinians who lived for many centuries in Palestine. It's worse than Hamas. If that's your goal, than you are a nazi and you deserve destruction and death yourself. If the majority in Israel think like that (fortunately they don't) there will never and should never be peace for Israel, but eternal violence.
I think such ideas should be punished by law, just like denial of the Genocide, and people who propose it deserve to spend their days in jail.

Absolutely. I think that people who advocate genocide - and I am not - should be punished. I also think that you should read people's posts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.

[bararallu]

Absolutely. I think that people who advocate genocide - and I am not - should be punished. I also think that you should read people's posts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.

There's not enough straw in the world for this guys strawmen.

[takeo]

Yala



As I said, I know people who actually lived there, not went there for a few days, heard a few stories and then considered themselves an expert.

I'm not an expert, but I know more about it than most people here who all have an opinion about Palestinians or, as they like to call them, "fakestinians" (altough most never spoke to one)





Your original words:

Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city

so, you see, this is an interesting case of falsification.

I said exactly: "in reality Ramallah is a suburb of East-Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city, especially the old city, and completely different from West-Jerusalem" you changed it to "Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city". That's how you people try to win the debate.
A very clear case of falsification.

Of course, now that you've been caught, I'm sure you'll ignore it.




Hmmm, why didn't you post the demographics for the city of Jerusalem?

Because I was talking about East-Jerusalem, and the old city in particular. I said it was mostly palestinian. You said it wasn't. I proved my words. You realised you lost the debate and tried to change my words. bad luck, you've been caught.

I never ever doubted that Western Jerusalem is almost exclusively Jewish.
In all of Jerusalem Palestinians comprise about a little bit more than a thirth of the population in the entire Jerusalem, in Eastern Jerusalem they are the majority. (among young people Palestinians are majoritarian in all of Jerusalem, you can see the link I gave, it's there)





At least be man enough to admit you were wrong. In any case, I don't think you even believed it when you wrote it the first time. That's only my opinion, of course.

At least be man enough to admit that I didn't just write "Jerusalem" but "East-Jerusalem, which is also mostly a Palestinian city, especially the old city, and completely different from West-Jerusalem" and that you changed it in "Jerusalem". Admit that you were wrong. I know it's difficult. In 2003 I have been called all the bad words that exist in English language because I didn't believe Saddam had WMD's. I was called a lier and a fool. Not ONCE did anyone recognise I was right, not once anyone apologised. Of course I didn't expect anything else. You people are living from the lies and distortions, because the truth and facts are bad for you.



"Still, Srebrenica was still considered a warcrime, eventough many of those males were actually combatants."

which you changed to:

"Some Serbs (see my link above) have also been convicted for the indiscriminate shelling of Sarajevo and other cities."


No, that's not a change, both are facts. Serbs have been convicted for Srebrenica but other Serbs have been convicted only for shelling Sarajevo and other cities. I provided links.






You see when I asked in the forum why you changed your posts, and you didn't answer so another poster emailed me the changes. They didn't want to get into it with you because they realized what was going on and didn't want to take it further. Are they lying?
.

What are you talking about? I just caught you redhandedly changing my words.





Again, that's not what you wrote. This is what you wrote:

On the other hand I was surprised to see that orthodox Jews went to the Palestinian bazars in East-Jerusalem to shop around, and ate in Palestinian restaurants,

Yes, I agree this sentence is not completely right, I typed too fast. "On the other hand I was surprised to see that orthodox Jews went to the Palestinian bazars in East-Jerusalem to shop around, and ate in Palestinian restaurants." What I mean of course is that orthodox Jews went to Palestinian bazars in East-Jerusalem to shop around (which you see all the time in old Jerusalem), I didn't see orthodox Jews in Palestinian restaurants of course, but I saw Israeli people in restaurants in old Jersualem, but not orthodox Jews. Many Arab restaurants (most are Arab restaurants) in old Jerusalem have Hebrew menus, why would that be? Just go there and see for yourself.


No mention of secular Israelis, who of course would be the only Jews to eat in non-kosher restaurants.

I don't know many French (or American, dutch, etc.) Jews who always eat in Kosher restaurants. Most Israeli do, but not all.


I've been there many times but thanks for the tourist advice.

So than you know, right? Do you officially deny that most people living in old Jerusalem and restaurants in old Jerusalem are Arab? And I don't know if you always eat Kosher, but if you entered any touristy Arab restaurant in old Jerusalem you'll see Hebrew menus.





Peace should mean peace and not peace with jihad in 10 years.

Peace should mean peace, right. Like with Egypt. But peace not only means security but also means that internationally recognised borders are respected and restored.



Why are you getting so emotional? I said they were just rumors. Besides, is there something wrong with being gay?

I'm not getting emotional, I couldn't care less. There's nothing wrong with being gay. And according to me there can be gay-parades in Jerusalem, why not? But why did you mention this, what's the importance in the debate?






No, you didn't.

yes, I did, don't lie. You remember the wikipedia link I gave, which stated the percentage of Jews in old Jerusalem?






Really, you are just being lazy now...
Washington Post:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-891610.html
Calling for jihad in South Africa

http://www.adl.org/presrele/IslEx_61/2841_61.asp
Calling for jihad in Dehaishe refugee camp.

The first link: he called for a Jihad to liberate Jerusalem. Jerusalem is also the capital of the Palestinians. Eastern Jerusalem is not a part of Israel, that's even the official view of the US-government. Eastern Jerusalem is occupied.

The second link is based on the observation of Abraham H. Foxman, not exactly a neutral source.

And of course Palestinians are still in conflct with the zionist movement, not a secret, that will stay that way as long as all issues are resolved. But at the same time Arafat repeated many times that he recognised Israel. This is a fact you choose to ignore.





Oh sure, cause the Arab block can't hijack the UN for their various agendas?

No, they can't, because in the UN all nations are represented. Resolutions get voted by majority, as in any parliament, and some members, including the US, have veto-power.



How about the worst human rights violators chairing UN human rights commissions? Is this acceptable or even moral?

They have been choosen by UN-members. So you agree with me that Israel can never chair any human rights commision right? Along with other states such as Sudan, Colombia, Saudi Arabia, Syria or Guatemala? In principle I agree with you, but the majority of nations decide, that's how this organisation functions.

[Yala]

The lying has approached the threshhold for me. Plus the nazi comparisons are making my stomach turn. See you next conflict. :tdown:

[Yala]

Mil,

You wrote:


The only Western European country that truely and strongly supported Israel was the Netherlands

Can you elaborate? Why and how did they support Israel?

[takeo]

Absolutely. I think that people who advocate genocide - and I am not - should be punished. I also think that you should read people's posts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.

OK. But then what exactly did you advocate? You said "2 states solution," Jordan and Israel. OK, so do you mean that Israel should give back Westbank and East-Jerusalem to Jordan? That's indeed not calling for genocide but an opinion (which I don't share)
If you mean that Israel should include the Palestinians living in Westbank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, and recognise them as Israel citizens, that's an honorable opinion too, which I don't share.

But somehow I don't think that's what you mean...

If you mean that all Palestinians should be cleansed from Israel AND Eastern Jerusalem AND the Westbank than you're not only obviously calling for ethnic cleansing, but as well for genocide. Because that's what it'll be in reality. Palestinians will not move voluntarily, they will only move in a coffin.

You and many others say that Hamas is genocidal because it said it wants to end Jewish presence in Israel. So when you say that you want to end Palestinian presence in Palestine, that's genocidal too, right?

[takeo]

The lying has approached the threshhold for me. Plus the nazi comparisons are making my stomach turn. See you next conflict. :tdown:

What makes my stomach upset is people calling for ethnic cleansing. When you do that you just ask for nazi comparisons, because ethnic cleansing is also what the nazi's liked to do, among other things. And yes, also hamas calls for ethnic cleansing. And yes, somehow you can also compare Hamas to nazi's


And noone on this forum except me and andak calling it a crime.

And of course you didn't recognise that you misrepresented my words.

[bararallu]

Hey Andak, it seems you have an admirer.

[Yala]

Hey Andak, it seems you have an admirer.

2 of a kind. Although Takeo has stated on more than one occasion that he dislikes Islam so I don't know if these 2 will make it, but one can certainly hope.

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo:
If you mean that all Palestinians should be cleansed from Israel AND Eastern Jerusalem AND the Westbank than you're not only obviously calling for ethnic cleansing, but as well for genocide. Because that's what it'll be in reality. Palestinians will not move voluntarily, they will only move in a coffin.

I think "Palestinians" should be offered the chance to join their brothers and sisters in Jordan (much bigger than Israel and the original Arab part of "Palestine"). They're obviously unhappy where they are. Fifty per cent of the Jordanian population is "Palestinian". But it seems that Jordan's not too keen on this (no other Arab country is either). Wonder why that might be... Incidentally, 14% of the Israeli population is "Palestinian".

[scattergood]

If you mean that all Palestinians should be cleansed from Israel AND Eastern Jerusalem AND the Westbank than you're not only obviously calling for ethnic cleansing, but as well for genocide. Because that's what it'll be in reality. Palestinians will not move voluntarily, they will only move in a coffin.

And how much complaining do you do about the PLO and Hamas' calls for a Jew free WB and Gaza?......chirp, chirp......

[bararallu]

And how much complaining do you do about the PLO and Hamas' calls for a Jew free WB and Gaza?......chirp, chirp......

He's a full-on hypocrite.

He doesn't represent a smidgen of French Jewish opinion. He backs some of the most murderous regimes on the planet, like the Soviets, the Russians, the Iranians. And where opportune to his whim he backs Islamists (like in Turkey) and otherwise he is a high caliber B.S. machine. Almost definitely a product of official Soviet indoctrination, including institutional anti-Zionism. In this tread alone he whitewashed the brutal ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Middle East. He further equates ethnic cleansing with genocide, an odd thing indeed since the Jews ethnically cleansed where not mass murdered (merely mass abused). Perhaps he takes the example of the Russian war juggernaught in the caucuses as a primary example.

[Rob]

Can you elaborate? Why and how did they support Israel?

Netherlands was next to the US one of the countries who supplied arms to Israel in 1973 and also allowed the US to use its airfields for supplying Israel. The Netherlands suffered because of this as it was especially hit by the oil embargo which followed. To illustrate, on some days it was not even allowed to use your car anymore, the carless Sundays.

Consecutive Dutch governments have been supportive, up until the present:

Dutch FM says Israel unfairly singled out for criticism by UN (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947090.html)

[bararallu]

The most pro Israeli country in Europe is the Czech Republic. Italy used to be pretty good too... not so much these days it seems.

[takeo]

And how much complaining do you do about the PLO and Hamas' calls for a Jew free WB and Gaza?......chirp, chirp......

Any Jew who can proove his family lived there before 1949 or earlier should have the right to return, on the condition of course that every Palestinian who can proove that his family lived in Israel before 1949 or earlier should have the right to return. I'm all for it. Ethnic cleansing of the past, both in the occcupied territories and Israel, has to be reversed. That's right!

[bararallu]

Any Jew who can proove his family lived there before 1949 or earlier should have the right to return, on the condition of course that every Palestinian who can proove that his family lived in Israel before 1949 or earlier should have the right to return. I'm all for it. Ethnic cleansing of the past, both in the occcupied territories and Israel, has to be reversed. That's right!

Thats a nice way to endorse genocide of Jews.

[takeo]

bararall


He's a full-on hypocrite.


Whatever, namecalling is too easy, I'm not participating.





He doesn't represent a smidgen of French Jewish opinion.

That's right of course. But neither do you (fortunately)


He backs some of the most murderous regimes on the planet, like the Soviets, the Russians, the Iranians.

These are not the most murderous regimes on earth, and I don't back the mullahs. And the Soviets saved millions of Jews from nazi-slaughter, I think you should stop criticising the Soviets. Unless of course you don't care.




And where opportune to his whim he backs Islamists (like in Turkey)

I don't really back AKP but at least they're better than the former regime which tortured, was underperforming, killing human rights workers, Kurds, etc. Of course I know you don't care. It doesn't fit in your narrow worldview. And AKP is democratically elected.





and otherwise he is a high caliber B.S. machine.

look in the mirror



Almost definitely a product of official Soviet indoctrination, including institutional anti-Zionism.

nonsense. You however are definately a product of too much cold war propaganda.



In this tread alone he whitewashed the brutal ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Middle East.

I didn't, I only said that it was mostly voluntary emigration (because of a number of reasons) not forced by war like the Palesitanians(except a few exceptions). I even provided links (if you want I can post them again) proving that Iraq, for example, even forbade the emigration of Jews, while zionist organisations were actively recruiting for emigration.





He further equates ethnic cleansing with genocide, an odd thing indeed since the Jews ethnically cleansed where not mass murdered (merely mass abused).

There's a difference, most Jews left voluntary, but lost their property. Most wanted to go, because conditions in the Arab countries became more hostile. Most Palestinians tought they would be able to return later. But nowadays Palestinians know that if they get removed, they will never be able to return, and they have nowhere to go to.
They will fight to death. Moreover, Jordan doesn't want them. They will close their border like Egypt today in Gaza. So either you drop them from planes in the mediterranean, or push them in the Jordan river. I know you're capable doing so. Someone who is capable of ethnic cleansing is also capable of genocide.










Perhaps he takes the example of the Russian war juggernaught in the caucuses as a primary example.

In Georgia a few dozen civilians died during the latest war. Chechnya is still 80% Chechnyan, and they have large autonomy. No ethnic cleansing.

[Mil]

I also believe Russia should give Kaliningrad and the periphery back to Germans. This was never Russian territory and it only happened sixty years ago and involved hell of a lot more people then what happened in Palestine, and it was hell of a lot more violent (all those reports about mass rapes actually did happen). The way Russians and Poles conducted ethnic cleansing of over 12 million Germans is well known.... In fact I don't think there are any Germans left in what used to be East Prussia.

I will personally take on the "Return" thing if our local so-called Russophile will take on the East Prussian thing. The conditions on the East Prussian thing should be that whoever did not live in East Prussia prior to 1946 should.... move out.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

There's a difference, most Jews left voluntary, but lost their property.

:) In Morocco, for example, Jews were not allowed to leave the country.

Most wanted to go, because conditions in the Arab countries became more hostile.

Pogroms, boycotts, violence, travel bans, imprisonment (entire Jewish Egyptian adult male population was imprisoned after 1967 war, for example!!!), different laws, harassment.... similar to what the Nazis did before they sent Jews to the ovens.

Most Palestinians tought they would be able to return later. But nowadays Palestinians know that if they get removed, they will never be able to return, and they have nowhere to go to.

Arabs caused the war and Arabs need to figure it out.

They will fight to death. Moreover, Jordan doesn't want them. They will close their border like Egypt today in Gaza. So either you drop them from planes in the mediterranean, or push them in the Jordan river.

it all could have been resolved in 1948.... Arabs said no. All that is happening right now is the result of that. Arabs have hell of a lot more resources and political power then Israelis.

I know you're capable doing so. Someone who is capable of ethnic cleansing is also capable of genocide.

You mean the French?

By the way - what's up with Alscase and Lorraine?

[Mil]

As soon as war was declared, both French and German sides made mistakes and insults towards Alsace-Lorraine people, who were used as pawns in the growing conflict between France and Germany.

Alsatians living in France were arrested and dragged into camps with popular French support; besides, when Frenchmen got into a village, they wildly arrested people, taking sometimes old medallist veterans of 1870[3]. The Germans repsonded with worse atrocities : the Saverne Affair had convinced the high command that the whole population was intensely hostile to the German Reich and that it should be terrorized into submission.

Charles Spindler informed that his nephew, living in Berlin, was mobilized in a Prussian regiment; while arriving in Strasbourg's train station, the staff sergeant warned his troop : « Now, you are in a country of s... (sic), act consequently! »

Due to the proximity of the front, German troops confiscated homes. The German military were highly suspicious of French patriots.

Prohibition to speak French in public still increased the exasperation of the natives, for long used to mix up the conversation with French language; however, only one word, was it as innocent as "bonjour", costed a fine[4].

The non-native Germans believed to show patriotism while taking part in the hunting: they had fine hearing to denounce to the police all that they heard in the cursed language. Thus, the population was divided between an all-powerful minority and a majority which could only keep its fist in its pocket and wait for the hour of revenge[5].

Regarded as suspect, the Alsatian or Lorraine soldier was obviously sent on the Russian front where the most dangerous missions were assigned to him. The permissions were granted to him less easily than to other German soldiers[6]. Anyway, even if he obtained his permission, the Alsatian-Lorraine soldier had to wait three weeks to let the local police investigate his family[7].
If he lived too close to the Swiss border, it was feared too much that he would try to desert and he had to remain in Baden, where his family was liberally given the right to come and see him[8].

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo:
They will fight to death. Moreover, Jordan doesn't want them. They will close their border like Egypt today in Gaza. So either you drop them from planes in the mediterranean, or push them in the Jordan river. I know you're capable doing so. Someone who is capable of ethnic cleansing is also capable of genocide.

What a dreadful suggestion! Why are you so obsessed with ethnic cleansing and genocide?

[takeo]

Thats a nice way to endorse genocide of Jews.

I didn't. I'm not even calling for ethnic cleansing, on the contrary to you.
I'm against ethnic cleansing. And if you want Jews to return to the Westbank and Gaza it seems ok to me, but of course it's only fair that the Palestinians too will then have the right to return to Israel.

However we all agree that illegal immigrants can't stay, right? Or can they? In that case of course this means illegal immigrants in the US or Israel TOO have the right to stay.

Finally, if Jews want to stay in the Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem, I think it should be possible. But of course then they'll have to become citizens of Palestine and abide to the Palestinian law. I don't see why that wouldn't be possible, providing peace is signed.

[takeo]

What a dreadful suggestion! Why are you so obsessed with ethnic cleansing and genocide?

Because that's what you, and many others on this forum, are proposing as final solution! What you essentially want is a Palestinianfree area from the mediterranean to the Jordan and death sea... think of it... how else can you call it than ethnic cleansing?
To Me it sounds like a dreadful proposal indeed!

[takeo]

I also believe Russia should give Kaliningrad and the periphery back to Germans. This was never Russian territory and it only happened sixty years ago and involved hell of a lot more people then what happened in Palestine, and it was hell of a lot more violent (all those reports about mass rapes actually did happen). The way Russians and Poles conducted ethnic cleansing of over 12 million Germans is well known.... In fact I don't think there are any Germans left in what used to be East Prussia.

I will personally take on the "Return" thing if our local so-called Russophile will take on the East Prussian thing. The conditions on the East Prussian thing should be that whoever did not live in East Prussia prior to 1946 should.... move out.

There's a difference. Kaliningrad is recognised as a part of Russia by the entire world, including Germany. Westbank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are not recognised by any country as parts of Israel.
There are several UN-resolutions calling on Israel to end occupation. There are no resolutions calling on Russia to give back Kaliningrad.

Israel also took much more than allocated by the UN-partition plan, but everything it took in 1948 has been recognised by almost the entire world, so that's irreversible, like Kaliningrad, like California and Texas stolen from the Mexicans, unlike the occupied territories.
Besides I didn't know that you supported Stalinist policies? For your information: I don't! But now the demographical situation of Kaliningrad is irreversable, just like the demographical situation of Israel. But the occupied territories are not even officially a part of Israel, and most people living there are not Israeli citizens and don't recognise Israel. So a completely different situation.

[Bheeshma]

There's a difference. Kaliningrad is recognised as a part of Russia by the entire world, including Germany. Westbank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are not recognised by any country as parts of Israel.
There are several UN-resolutions calling on Israel to end occupation. There are no resolutions calling on Russia to give back Kaliningrad.

Even if no one considered Kaliningrad as russian they wouldn't care. Israel also need not care. Jerusalem belongs to israel and the world can live with it or jump into a well. Soviet union was an entity created by coercion and slaughter of the eastern europeans but i never saw UN condemning and calling for dissolution of USSR. UN is a joke and needs to be dissolved.


Israel also took much more than allocated by the UN-partition plan, but everything it took in 1948 has been recognised by almost the entire world, so that's irreversible, like Kaliningrad, like California and Texas stolen from the Mexicans, unlike the occupied territories.
Besides I didn't know that you supported Stalinist policies? For your information: I don't! But now the demographical situation of Kaliningrad is irreversable, just like the demographical situation of Israel. But the occupied territories are not even officially a part of Israel, and most people living there are not Israeli citizens and don't recognise Israel. So a completely different situation.
Nothing is irreversible. Israel took war damages from the arabs for trying to exterminate them and they have to live with the consequences.

[takeo]

Mil



:) In Morocco, for example, Jews were not allowed to leave the country.

In Iran, only the poor left for a better life, the rich stayed until the islamic revolution. Some still live in Iran. (see wikipedia "Jews in Iran")




Pogroms, boycotts, violence, travel bans, imprisonment (entire Jewish Egyptian adult male population was imprisoned after 1967 war, for example!!!), different laws, harassment.... similar to what the Nazis did before they sent Jews to the ovens.

Egypt was the worst case, because it was directly in war with Israel, in other countries persecution was less.
But, nevertheless, they were not forced to leave, unlike most Palestinians. Even today there are Jews living in countries such as Morocco and Iran.
Concerning imprisoning the entire Jewish population after 1967, I don't agree with such measures of course, but didn't the US do the same with Japanese citizens in the US during WWII? And you also have to admit that very few Jews were forced to leave or killed in muslim countries. This in contradiction to the fate of many Palestinians.



Arabs caused the war and Arabs need to figure it out.

Israel is as much to blame as the Arabs. Especially since 1967.



it all could have been resolved in 1948.... Arabs said no.

That's history. Are you going to use this as an argument for refusing to give back the occupied territories occupied since 1967????




All that is happening right now is the result of that. Arabs have hell of a lot more resources and political power then Israelis.

What's happening right now is the result of a lack of pragmatism and goodwill on both sides, and since 1967 especially on the Israeli side.

They don't, because Israel has the US, that's their strenght.



By the way - what's up with Alscase and Lorraine?

They have not been etnically cleansed. Most feel more French than German. Even during the war, resistance to the nazi's was fierce there.

In the 19th century the US stole most of it territory from Spain and France and toroughly massacred the natives.

[Bheeshma]

There is a simple solution to the mess. Syria, jordan and egypt accept the palestinians as their citizans along with gaza and west bank. Jerusalem stays with israel.

[Bheeshma]

That's history. Are you going to use this as an argument for refusing to give back the occupied territories occupied since 1967????

Err 1967 is also history , why are the arabs clinging to it? They just need to get over it.

[takeo]

Bheeshma


Even if no one considered Kaliningrad as russian they wouldn't care.

How do you know? Russia gave up the Baltics for free, who later joined Russia's ennemies, it gave up almost half of its territory for free. Russia also withdrew from the entire Eastern Europe.






Israel also need not care.

They need to care, if they want peace at least...



Jerusalem belongs to israel

that's why you won't find a single embassy in Jerusalem right? That's why Eastern Jerusalem is mostly inhabited by Palestinians who are no Israeli citizens and don't want to be Israeli citizens, right?


and the world can live with it or jump into a well.

They can also finance and aid the ennemies of Israel instead, punish it economically and isolate Israel, if Israel is unwilling to give back occupied territories.



Soviet union was an entity created by coercion and slaughter of the eastern europeans but i never saw UN condemning and calling for dissolution of USSR.

The Soviet-Union was a union of republics. Once the republics choose to go their own way Russia let them go without a fight.
Israel doesn't want that. Not a single Palestinian wants to belong to Israel. And they don't even belong to Israel, they are just occupied by force.






UN is a joke and needs to be dissolved.

it is not, UN is much better than the rule of the jungle as during the first half of the 20th century.




Nothing is irreversible. Israel took war damages from the arabs for trying to exterminate them and they have to live with the consequences.

You want to exterminate the Palestinians.
Israel attacked its neighbours and occupied them in 1967. If you call that wardamages ok. Than I guess Russia takes wardamages from Georgia, Ukraine (which belonged to Russia for 100's of years), right? And while they're at it they can also invade, submit and cleanse Poland, Romania, etc. Since you prefere the right of the strongest, I guess you should be ok with that.

[takeo]

There is a simple solution to the mess. Syria, jordan and egypt accept the palestinians as their citizans along with gaza and west bank. Jerusalem stays with israel.

No, Eastern jerusalem is part of Palestine. Even Barak and Olmert recognised so. There can be a solution for the Holy Jewish sites of course. These can be put under international mandate or adhered to Israel.

[takeo]

That's history. Are you going to use this as an argument for refusing to give back the occupied territories occupied since 1967????

Err 1967 is also history , why are the arabs clinging to it? They just need to get over it.

It's not history yet! The occupation and colonisation continues untill today, as well as the resistance against it. Not a single country has recognised these as parts of Israel. These areas aren't even incorporated into Israel propper.

[Mediocrates]

Shut up troll. You roll in every few years if an Israeli gun shoots at a terrorist. You're a damn robot mouthing the same nonsense over and over. Everything is 'cleansing' everything is 'occupation'.

Go to Salon.com or Ummah or stormfront or JSF or whever roboracists go.

[Mediocrates]

BtW you're in Belgium not France. And your name is Bulgarian not Russian.

[Bheeshma]

Bheeshma



How do you know? Russia gave up the Baltics for free, who later joined Russia's ennemies, it gave up almost half of its territory for free. Russia also withdrew from the entire Eastern Europe.

No they did not. Soviet empire collapsed like a pack of cards and they were forced to give it up. Lets not make virtue out of necessity.





They need to care, if they want peace at least...
Arabs need to care if they want to live at peace. Else israel is doing a good job.





that's why you won't find a single embassy in Jerusalem right? That's why Eastern Jerusalem is mostly inhabited by Palestinians who are no Israeli citizens and don't want to be Israeli citizens, right?
Jerusalem is the holiest of jewish places and i don't recognize filth called christianity or islams right on it. But feel free to disagree.




They can also finance and aid the ennemies of Israel instead, punish it economically and isolate Israel, if Israel is unwilling to give back occupied territories.
If they were capable you wouldn't be whining like a bitch on this forum but pointing it out gleefully to the israelis. The world can't period. US, Uk, France, germany, italy, india, Japan, south korea etc will not isolate israel. The russians will try political gimmickry but they have no love for middle eastern muslims . They also will not isolate israel. China is incapable of doing much against all these countries. It will stay quiet. Have you heard a peep from them yet?




The Soviet-Union was a union of republics. Once the republics choose to go their own way Russia let them go without a fight.
Israel doesn't want that. Not a single Palestinian wants to belong to Israel. And they don't even belong to Israel, they are just occupied by force.

It was not a republic like US or India. The people of the eastern european republics had no say in it. It was a republic created by slaughter and blood shed.Given a choice they would have split from USSR long ago. USSR was a failed experiment held together by terror and fear and it collapsed. Russia is stronger without the baggage of these republics.






it is not, UN is much better than the rule of the jungle as during the first half of the 20th century.

UN is a miserable failure which is caught up in red tapism and bureaucratic procedures while millions of innocents die in somalia, sudan and rwanda.



You want to exterminate the Palestinians.
Israel attacked its neighbours and occupied them in 1967. If you call that wardamages ok. Than I guess Russia takes wardamages from Georgia, Ukraine (which belonged to Russia for 100's of years), right? And while they're at it they can also invade, submit and cleanse Poland, Romania, etc. Since you prefere the right of the strongest, I guess you should be ok with that.
Russia already has claimed its war damages and I don't see anyone other than sakashvilli crying about it. Abkhazia and south ossetia are as good as russian. I have no problem with that either. But your fascination to exterminate the palestinians is really obvious. No one has talked about exterminating them except you. Paletinians are ethnic syrians, jordanians and egyptians they will have no problem being absorbed in these countries.

[Bheeshma]

No, Eastern jerusalem is part of Palestine. Even Barak and Olmert recognised so. There can be a solution for the Holy Jewish sites of course. These can be put under international mandate or adhered to Israel.

Sure as soon and mecca and medina are bought under UN control.

[Bheeshma]

It's not history yet! The occupation and colonisation continues untill today, as well as the resistance against it. Not a single country has recognised these as parts of Israel. These areas aren't even incorporated into Israel propper.

Nor is the fact that arabs (hamas, hezbollah) and iranians are trying to exterminate israel. So 1948 is not history either. The israelis still live in that reality.

[Mosche]

Jerusalem is the holiest of jewish places and i don't recognize filth called christianity or islams right on it. But feel free to disagree.


I agree with many of your other points, but I do think that it is counterproductive to alienate our Christian allies. First, they are our allies. Second, Christians have apologized to Jews for past attrocities--even though it was, in most cases, their ancestors who committed those attrocities. Third, using terms such as "filth" to describe religions guarantees that there will never be peace. Such terms, inevitably, shut down all dialogue. I disagree when Muslims use such language to describe us, and I disagree when we do likewise.

[takeo]

BtW you're in Belgium not France. And your name is Bulgarian not Russian.

Yes I'm currently in Belgium. I already told you that I spend some time in Belgium for my job. Anyway that's none of your business.

Also do you really think I'm gonna use my real name on such a hostile forum?
Dimitrovgrad is a city near Ulyanovsk, Russia, for your information, smart@$s.

I'm not even goin to respond to your other cr@p, except that there is a lot of similarity between stormfront and this forum. Both are full of irrational, revengefull and hateful extremists.


oh by the way your name is Greek!

[takeo]

I agree with many of your other points, but I do think that it is counterproductive to alienate our Christian allies. First, they are our allies. Second, Christians have apologized to Jews for past attrocities--even though it was, in most cases, their ancestors who committed those attrocities. Third, using terms such as "filth" to describe religions guarantees that there will never be peace. Such terms, inevitably, shut down all dialogue. I disagree when Muslims use such language to describe us, and I disagree when we do likewise.

He doesn't want peace or dialogue, he wants to exterminate all non-Jews in Israel. This is the purest hatespeech. And he's not the only one on this forum.

[takeo]

Bheeshma


No they did not. Soviet empire collapsed like a pack of cards and they were forced to give it up. Lets not make virtue out of necessity.

They weren't forced, they could have oppressed all those national movements, could have ended them in blood, like Israel would do.




Arabs need to care if they want to live at peace. Else israel is doing a good job.

They can only live at peace if Israel lives at peace with them and stops occupying and colonising them.




Jerusalem is the holiest of jewish places and i don't recognize filth called christianity or islams right on it. But feel free to disagree.

I can see that you're a very open-minded person.... tolerant for other religions... other opinions.... other people... you're like the Jewish version of Hamas, or even worse, the Jewish version of some other guy with a moustache who also didn't like "filth" not belonging to his own people in his country.





If they were capable you wouldn't be whining like a bitch on this forum but pointing it out gleefully to the israelis. The world can't period. US, Uk, France, germany, italy, india, Japan, south korea etc will not isolate israel.

Depends on the number of casualties. As a start the special economic treaty between Israel and the EU (largest tradepartner) has not been adopted by the European parliament as a result of Gaza.




The russians will try political gimmickry but they have no love for middle eastern muslims .

That's right, but they will sell their newest weaponry to Syria which in turn will give it to Hezbollah and Hamas. They will also help Iran and other countries developping nukes.



They also will not isolate israel. China is incapable of doing much against all these countries. It will stay quiet. Have you heard a peep from them yet?

It's not their part of the world.




It was not a republic like US or India. The people of the eastern european republics had no say in it. It was a republic created by slaughter and blood shed.Given a choice they would have split from USSR long ago.

Given a chooce the USSR would still be together. In many former Soviet-republics ex-communists or communists have been voted back in power, such as in belarus, Moldova, Tajikistan, Russia, Azerbaidjan, Uzbekistan, etc.
You think India is perfect? You think Kashmiri are happy to be a part of India? You think India is a modern developped democracy? :rofl:




USSR was a failed experiment held together by terror and fear and it collapsed. Russia is stronger without the baggage of these republics.


Not at all, the breakup was a heavy setback for all republics, especially Russia. Now Putin wants reintegration as soon as possible.




UN is a miserable failure which is caught up in red tapism and bureaucratic procedures while millions of innocents die in somalia, sudan and rwanda.

Iraq, on the contrary, was a great succes!:unsure:




Russia already has claimed its war damages and I don't see anyone other than sakashvilli crying about it. Abkhazia and south ossetia are as good as russian. I have no problem with that either.

That's right, but the US government cried very much, and gave billions to Georgia.



But your fascination to exterminate the palestinians is really obvious. No one has talked about exterminating them except you. Paletinians are ethnic syrians, jordanians and egyptians they will have no problem being absorbed in these countries.

nonsense, they are Palestinians, and refugees have never truly been absorbed in these countries. Besides that none of these countries want them. I guess you have to live with them, give them back their land or exterminate them, that's your choice!
Palestinians lived there for many generations, on the contrary to most Israeli who migrated from everywhere.

Anyway, I'm very glad that Obama got elected, if only because I know how much you people hate him.

[bararallu]

He doesn't want peace or dialogue, he wants to exterminate all non-Jews in Israel. This is the purest hatespeech. And he's not the only one on this forum.

Doofus. He didn't say anything about exterminating anyone unlike your morbid fascination. And he himself is a non Jew.

[Bheeshma]

Bheeshma



They weren't forced, they could have oppressed all those national movements, could have ended them in blood, like Israel would do.
Yes they were. They had no money they couldn't do jack shit. They were literally on all fours and needed US money to keep the economy going. Killing wouldn't have kept the "republic" intact it would only have hastened russia's demise. So cut the crap about letting the republics go. They had no choice.





They can only live at peace if Israel lives at peace with them and stops occupying and colonising them. chicken and egg argument. Israel can only live in peace if the stop firing missiles and govern their lands in gaza and west bank.






I can see that you're a very open-minded person.... tolerant for other religions... other opinions.... other people... you're like the Jewish version of Hamas, or even worse, the Jewish version of some other guy with a moustache who also didn't like "filth" not belonging to his own people in his country.
I am not jewish. For the last time I am hindu and have seen first hand the job done by muslim clerics and christian missionaries. All of whom are funded by various madrassah (in muslim world) and churches in US. So spare me the rubbish about christianity and Islam. They are just the two faces of same coin. One following 700 years behind the other.




Depends on the number of casualties. As a start the special economic treaty between Israel and the EU (largest tradepartner) has not been adopted by the European parliament as a result of Gaza.
Who cares about EU? US is the largest trade partner and will remain so for a long time.




That's right, but they will sell their newest weaponry to Syria which in turn will give it to Hezbollah and Hamas. They will also help Iran and other countries developping nukes.
Err no they really don't want a nuclear neighbor like Iran to the south. I know enough russians to know what they think about Iran. Sure they wouldn't mind using them to keep US out of their backyard but nukes?? There is a reason why Iran is forced to go for mediocre chinese weapons like silkworm and M-9/11's. Russia is not stupid.




It's not their part of the world.
It never will be...






Given a chooce the USSR would still be together. In many former Soviet-republics ex-communists or communists have been voted back in power, such as in belarus, Moldova, Tajikistan, Russia, Azerbaidjan, Uzbekistan, etc.
You think India is perfect? You think Kashmiri are happy to be a part of India? You think India is a modern developped democracy? :rofl:

Err no it won't ..Ukrain, Georgia, estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc would never join. But then in soviet style or chinese democracy that you crave they don't matter right?

Nope India is not perfect in fact never perfect but far better than thrash like EU and religious fascists like france. In India muslims can practise their religion and wear whatever they want (except bomb vest), unlike france where poor sikhs and jews face religious prosecution. In italy romany's are treated worse that dogs. Same in eastern europe.

The same kashmiris came out to vote (61%) and elected a new govt. But of course for what would an european moron who doesnt even know the difference between the population of the valley, Jammu and Leh know of it.







Not at all, the breakup was a heavy setback for all republics, especially Russia. Now Putin wants reintegration as soon as possible.

Yeah sure. The love of the baltic republic just overflows like the ganges.






Iraq, on the contrary, was a great succes!:unsure:

Not like UN could have done a better job. But hey electing a non chinese style democratic govt to power is so stupid compared to the wonderful job UN has done in somalia, dafur and rwanda






That's right, but the US government cried very much, and gave billions to Georgia.
Bribe to shut up and forget about abkhazia and S ossetia. Good for Putin.





nonsense, they are Palestinians, and refugees have never truly been absorbed in these countries. Besides that none of these countries want them. I guess you have to live with them, give them back their land or exterminate them, that's your choice!
Palestinians lived there for many generations, on the contrary to most Israeli who migrated from everywhere.

Anyway, I'm very glad that Obama got elected, if only because I know how much you people hate him.
Yeah sure. I wonder why jordanians went about killing them. Such lovable cuddle bunnies these terrorists. Bad jordan, bad jordan.:rofl:. The choice has been given. Live peacefully and prosper in west bank and gaza. But of course if you have an itch to fire a few rockets at israel I suggest they invest in a bomb shelter.
Jews lived there longer than arabs. Yes most migrated (nay were driven off) from europe coz europeans did not want them in their midst.(bad jews ,bad jews!!) But now after 60 years europe wants to make amends and kick the jews out again? Sorry no deal..

Obama!!! Most of my friend voted obama and I would have too. His policy on middle east will be same as george bush's. If anyone thinks otherwise...I pity the fool!!! I pity the fool !!!

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:


There's a difference. Kaliningrad is recognised as a part of Russia by the entire world, including Germany.

Yeah - who would have argued with the super-power after WWII. USSR physically cleansed all Germans and re-ethnicalized the entire area in a matter of 60 years. You would never guess that Keningsburg was once a Teutanic castle.

Westbank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are not recognised by any country as parts of Israel.

Gaza is recognized by Israel as Gaza. This was done 2 years ago.

There are several UN-resolutions calling on Israel to end occupation. There are no resolutions calling on Russia to give back Kaliningrad.

Why don't you start one.


Israel also took much more than allocated by the UN-partition plan, but everything it took in 1948 has been recognised by almost the entire world,

Or adjustment of Hungarian borders, French, Russian, German, Austrian and other borders... WWI and WWII were all about BORDERS! In fact much of your wars were about BORDERS! Crimean war, for example, fought about borders, killed more people in just 6 month as the American Civil War in over 4+ years. And Crimean war was not even the largest European war of the 19th century.

In fact Arabs don't recognize it - the reason for all the wars. Israel does not exist for them - including that for Hamas. The 1973 war, for example, was bigger then Kursk in the number of tanks involved and the firepower.


so that's irreversible, like Kaliningrad,

Why don't you take the Kalinigrad cause. Do you think it was fair to cleanse 12 million people?

like California and Texas stolen from the Mexicans, unlike the occupied territories.

:) That's good. Or Russia which expanded in all directions at the expanse of many other different peoples and places. You know how much territory Persia, today's Iran, lost to Russia in the 19th century - for example. The Chechens never excepted Russian rule and these wars of today were fought before... read Tolstoy's "Kavkazki Plennik." Tolstoy actually served in what is now Chechnya way back then.

Besides I didn't know that you supported Stalinist policies For your information: I don't!

? What does it mean I support Stalinist policies. USA and USSR were the primary reason why Israel was created. USA did it for purely moral reasons and USSR for moral + geopolitical reasons.

But now the demographical situation of Kaliningrad is irreversable, just like the demographical situation of Israel.

? Of course Germany is significantly further away from Kaliningrad then West Bank from Israel (in fact it's separated by a country and a sea).


But the occupied territories are not even officially a part of Israel, and most people living there are not Israeli citizens and don't recognise Israel. So a completely different situation.

So you support the Russians who cleansed the entire area in such a way - so that they would never be a problem.... right? Dude, you are a bigger sadist then I thought.....

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo:
Because that's what you, and many others on this forum, are proposing as final solution! What you essentially want is a Palestinianfree area from the mediterranean to the Jordan and death sea... think of it... how else can you call it than ethnic cleansing?
To Me it sounds like a dreadful proposal indeed!

:rolleyes:You keep mentioning ethnic cleansing and genocide. You've even suggested ways of doing this.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by takeo:
Because that's what you, and many others on this forum, are proposing as final solution! What you essentially want is a Palestinianfree area from the mediterranean to the Jordan and death sea... think of it... how else can you call it than ethnic cleansing?
To Me it sounds like a dreadful proposal indeed!

Oh this idiot is back....

It is just plain stupid for non-Islamic countries to continue to allow Muslim immigration. It is not worth the trouble and if not ended, eventually the entire world will be living like the Israelis and people of Kashmir. With constant threats and attacks.

[Steven]

BtW you're in Belgium not France. And your name is Bulgarian not Russian.

:rofl:


Nice to see you back.

[takeo]

Doofus. He didn't say anything about exterminating anyone unlike your morbid fascination. And he himself is a non Jew.

He said that muslim and christians are filth that should not be in Jerusalem. How is he going to clean that filth?

[takeo]

Originally Posted by takeo:
Because that's what you, and many others on this forum, are proposing as final solution! What you essentially want is a Palestinianfree area from the mediterranean to the Jordan and death sea... think of it... how else can you call it than ethnic cleansing?
To Me it sounds like a dreadful proposal indeed!

Oh this idiot is back....

It is just plain stupid for non-Islamic countries to continue to allow Muslim immigration. It is not worth the trouble and if not ended, eventually the entire world will be living like the Israelis and people of Kashmir. With constant threats and attacks.

You people are extremists and beyond salvation, basically lost.

[takeo]

:rolleyes:You keep mentioning ethnic cleansing and genocide. You've even suggested ways of doing this.

No, I just wondered how you are going to achieve a "Palestinian free" Israel and occupied territories, because that's want you want right?
How are you going to achieve that without ethnic cleansing or genocide?

[takeo]

Mil




Gaza is recognized by Israel as Gaza. This was done 2 years ago.

Gaza is not a country, it's part of the future state Palestine, which even has representatives in the UN.


Or adjustment of Hungarian borders, French, Russian, German, Austrian and other borders... WWI and WWII were all about BORDERS! In fact much of your wars were about BORDERS! Crimean war, for example, fought about borders, killed more people in just 6 month as the American Civil War in over 4+ years. And Crimean war was not even the largest European war of the 19th century.

I agree. But nowadays arbitrary and unilateral border changes aren't accepted anymore internationally. The creation of Israel in 1948 is one of the last ones. The territory conquered in 1967 is not accepted as part of Israel, by noone, not even the US, and people living there are not Israeli, and that's not going to change. Why do you want it? Why not concentrate on Israel itself? Even most Israeli don't want it. For them it's very expensive and means lots of trouble, only for a handful of religious extremists.




In fact Arabs don't recognize it - the reason for all the wars. Israel does not exist for them - including that for Hamas. The 1973 war, for example, was bigger then Kursk in the number of tanks involved and the firepower.

Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, among others, recognise Israel. Syria wants to recognise it if Israel gives back Golan. Today the occupation is the main reason why some countries still don't recognise Israel, the Saudi rulers even said so. (except some countries like Iran who will never recognise Israel)




Why don't you take the Kalinigrad cause. Do you think it was fair to cleanse 12 million people?

It wasn't, but it's irreversible. Just like in Israel. You can't send back millions of Jews, and not all Palestinians who lived there before ethnic cleansing can return. It's not just, but it's irresersible. You can't bring back the native Americans either. But the occupied territories are different, since noone recognises it as part of Israel and it has not been ethnically cleansed. In 2008, ethnic cleansing is no longer accepted internationally, especially not in the Western civilised world, to which Israel pretends to belong. I don't even think it would be accepted by the israeli public opinion. On the contrary to most posters here, many Israeli do have a sense of decensy, civilisation and pride and would never support such a policy. Even today there are Israeli human rights groups protesting against what's happening in Gaza.




:) That's good. Or Russia which expanded in all directions at the expanse of many other different peoples and places. You know how much territory Persia, today's Iran, lost to Russia in the 19th century - for example. The Chechens never excepted Russian rule and these wars of today were fought before... read Tolstoy's "Kavkazki Plennik." Tolstoy actually served in what is now Chechnya way back then.

Of course I know. But than again, look at your own country in the 19th century. It's one succession of imperialist wars and genocide. Difference is that Russia didn't genocide the locals, or at least not most of them. Today Chechens are still the majority in Chechnya, and Kazakhs still the majority in kasakhstan (altough heavily russified). Native Americans are nowhere the majority and haven't a single state for themsekves.




? Of course Germany is significantly further away from Kaliningrad then West Bank from Israel (in fact it's separated by a country and a sea).

So?




So you support the Russians who cleansed the entire area in such a way - so that they would never be a problem.... right?

Of course I don't support that policy, but as I said it's irreversable, just like Israel and the US (or Australia), both states which are based on ethnic cleansing.

[Mediocrates]

It's same as everything else he's ever 'contributed' here. blahblah ethnic cleansing blah blah genocide blah blah blah Russia and China are the most democratic countries in the world. blabblah blah I vacation in war torn Congo and the south Bronx. blah blah blah death to Israel.

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo:
How are you going to achieve that without ethnic cleansing or genocide?

:rolleyes: There you go again.

[Elin]

It's same as everything else he's ever 'contributed' here. blahblah ethnic cleansing blah blah genocide blah blah blah Russia and China are the most democratic countries in the world. blabblah blah I vacation in war torn Congo and the south Bronx. blah blah blah death to Israel.

Mediocrates why did you close Yala's thread? Why can't we talk about Turkish-Israel relations in IF? I was wondering Israelis reactions against Erdoğan's remarks and I also wanted to share my opinions.

[Mediocrates]

Because it always turns into shouting and nonsense. If you can behave, all of you....?

[bararallu]

Because it always turns into shouting and nonsense. If you can behave, all of you....?

There was a valid discussion there or 2 and a side discussion, or 2, that was quite a bit insulting. I think all parties should desist in making emotional statements, certainly ones beyond the scope of Turkish and Israeli relations. Can you guys do global filters on the known problematic language?

[Mediocrates]

it's unlocked.

[takeo]

It's same as everything else he's ever 'contributed' here. blahblah ethnic cleansing blah blah genocide blah blah blah Russia and China are the most democratic countries in the world. blabblah blah I vacation in war torn Congo and the south Bronx. blah blah blah death to Israel.

You people only know how to take it personally whenever you loose an argument. Whenever you loose the debate, whenever you got caught lying (for example you said my name was Bulgarian) you start insulting me personally and ignore the debate. It's always the same. (by the way I've been to a lot of countries worldwide, is that a sin?)
People say they want to transfer the Palestinians, and I call it ethnic cleansing. So, if it it's not ethnic cleansing, how would you call it? However you people continue to rant about genocide, Holocaust, nazi-hezbollah, Islam-terrorism, etc. ALL the time over and over again, like an obsession with Islam, Europe, Russia, communism, etc. like someone who suffers from a traumatic chilhood, it's so tiring. And without any argument, just like that, like it's God's own word. However when I say "ethnic cleansing" it's suddenly abusive... I guess the truth hurts.
You people are fundamentally fµcked up, and you don't represend anything, certainly not mainstream American opinion, not even mainstream Israeli opinion. Today I read in "the economist" (jan 10 tot 16th) (page 9 to 10) an analysis about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It was exactly what I'm saying here for years. I'm not the weirdo here, YOU ARE. Even Bush said in his last interview that he believes in the two-state solution, with the green line as border and Abbas as president of Palestine.
(and of course I know your reaction, have the "the economist" and Bush suddenly turned communist? Of course not, but concerning the main issue of this forum, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, my opinion is a lot closer to the mainstream American opinion than yours)

I don't know why I'm waisting my time debating with lunatics who talk about christian and muslim human beings as "filth", however are very shocked when you call deporting people who don't belong to the right tribe "ethnic cleansing"(UNLESS of course, their own tribe is the victim). Maybe it's just interesting.

[Steven]

You people only know how to take it personally whenever you loose an argument. Whenever you loose the debate, whenever you got caught lying (for example you said my name was Bulgarian) you start insulting me personally and ignore the debate. It's always the same. (by the way I've been to a lot of countries worldwide, is that a sin?)
People say they want to transfer the Palestinians, and I call it ethnic cleansing. So, if it it's not ethnic cleansing, how would you call it? However you people continue to rant about genocide, Holocaust, nazi-hezbollah, Islam-terrorism, etc. ALL the time over and over again, like an obsession with Islam, Europe, Russia, communism, etc. like someone who suffers from a traumatic chilhood, it's so tiring. And without any argument, just like that, like it's God's own word. However when I say "ethnic cleansing" it's suddenly abusive... I guess the truth hurts.
You people are fundamentally fµcked up, and you don't represend anything, certainly not mainstream American opinion, not even mainstream Israeli opinion. Today I read in "the economist" (jan 10 tot 16th) (page 9 to 10) an analysis about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It was exactly what I'm saying here for years. I'm not the weirdo here, YOU ARE. Even Bush said in his last interview that he believes in the two-state solution, with the green line as border and Abbas as president of Palestine.
(and of course I know your reaction, have the "the economist" and Bush suddenly turned communist? Of course not, but concerning the main issue of this forum, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, my opinion is a lot closer to the mainstream American opinion than yours)

I don't know why I'm waisting my time debating with lunatics who talk about christian and muslim human beings as "filth", however are very shocked when you call deporting people who don't belong to the right tribe "ethnic cleansing". Maybe it's just interesting.


This Jew hater comes here and insults most of the board and then he wanders why he has no support. :scratch:

To be honest, I doubt anyone really cares what your opinon is.

[Reffo]

Er wrong. Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel, and succeeded against nearly all the ME Jews. To qoute Jerry Seinfeld, "we choose not to run." If we went with their program we would win, oh in say half hour or so. Let's not mistake "maybe wont" wit "can't".

Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable even for the US public opinion. It would force other Arab and muslim leaders, such as Iran and Pakistan, to intervene. It could lead to a giant regional war. And the only winner of such a war would be the extremists of Al-Quaida. Certainly not Israel.LOL does Takeo realise what he just admitted here? He admitted what we were always trying to tell him: That the Arab objective since 1948 (and even before) was to commit genocide against the Jews ..

[takeo]

Bheeshma



Yes they were. They had no money they couldn't do jack shit. They were literally on all fours and needed US money to keep the economy going. Killing wouldn't have kept the "republic" intact it would only have hastened russia's demise. So cut the crap about letting the republics go. They had no choice.

Nonsense, even in its worst days the Soviets still had a lot more money than India.





chicken and egg argument. Israel can only live in peace if the stop firing missiles and govern their lands in gaza and west bank.


And they'll only stop firing missiles if Israel stops occupation and colonisation. Let's just try it?




I am not jewish. For the last time I am hindu and have seen first hand the job done by muslim clerics and christian missionaries. All of whom are funded by various madrassah (in muslim world) and churches in US. So spare me the rubbish about christianity and Islam. They are just the two faces of same coin. One following 700 years behind the other.

Yes, I heard about Hindu extremists killing christian civilians in Orissa. You can be proud!




Who cares about EU? US is the largest trade partner and will remain so for a long time.

No, the EU is the largest tradepartner of Israel. Wanna bet for 500$?




Err no they really don't want a nuclear neighbor like Iran to the south. I know enough russians to know what they think about Iran. Sure they wouldn't mind using them to keep US out of their backyard but nukes?? There is a reason why Iran is forced to go for mediocre chinese weapons like silkworm and M-9/11's. Russia is not stupid.

So why has the US put several Russian statecompanies on the black list because they are allegedly (according to the US) providing nuclear assistance to iraq? Is the US lying?





Err no it won't ..Ukrain, Georgia, estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc would never join. But then in soviet style or chinese democracy that you crave they don't matter right?

In Georgia Stalin is the national hero, he has his own museam and lots of statues. In every Ukrainian city in Eastern- and Southern-Ukraine you see a Lenin statue and streets are named after Lenin, Marx or the Soviet-Union.
Saakashvili is history, even the key memebers of his own party are leaving him. In Ukraine the president accused the prime minister being a Russian spy. The largest party is in opposition and absolutely pro-Russia. According to polls only 30% of Ukrainians want to become member of NATO, only 5% woudl still vote for the pro-Western president.
But you are right about Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They truly hated the Soviet-Union and they would never join again. They also were the countries with the largest share of population collaborating with the nazi's, actively hunting for communists and Jews. Now these collaborators get statues... What a coincidence..




Nope India is not perfect in fact never perfect but far better than thrash like EU and religious fascists like france.

Do you really mean it? Average Indian in the countryside can't even write or read, doesn't have electricity or a bank account, still lives in the middle Ages. You don't have to believe me, go to the statistics of UNDP for example (www.undp.org)



In India muslims can practise their religion and wear whatever they want (except bomb vest), unlike france where poor sikhs and jews face religious prosecution. In italy romany's are treated worse that dogs. Same in eastern europe.

Noone in France gets prosecuted for their religion. In India christians get burned to death by Hindu extremists.
Even the Romani in Italy (and I agree they're not treated nicely) are still FAR better off than the average Indian. They at least have enough food and electricity.



The same kashmiris came out to vote (61%) and elected a new govt. But of course for what would an european moron who doesnt even know the difference between the population of the valley, Jammu and Leh know of it.


This is the first title which pops up when I google "Kashmir elections".
"Violence marks Kashmir election " http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7744724.stm

What a remarcable exemplary democracy; right... :lol:







Yeah sure. The love of the baltic republic just overflows like the ganges.

They are the exception. What do you expect from nazi-collaborators? (a well known historical fact that any Jew should know, since many Baltic troops were responsible for massacres in Belarus and Ukraine). I think they should be rejected from the EU as long as they don't stop discriminating their russian minority.





Not like UN could have done a better job. But hey electing a non chinese style democratic govt to power is so stupid compared to the wonderful job UN has done in somalia, dafur and rwanda

It's still better than what the US achieved in Iraq: (an adventure almost everyone on this forum supported) turning a peaceful country in a living hell. (and than of course they blame it on "the others", "the muslims" etc.)





Bribe to shut up and forget about abkhazia and S ossetia. Good for Putin.

I don't think so, and Putin is not happy about it. They want to rearm Georgia and try to save the regime.




Jews lived there longer than arabs. Yes most migrated (nay were driven off) from europe coz europeans did not want them in their midst.(bad jews ,bad jews!!)

Well actually the Dravidians lived longer in India than the Aryans, all those Aryans, go back to Central-Asia! this is a nonsensical argument.
They weren't drivien of from Europe, Europe is not only nazi-Germany. There are still 100's of 1000's of Jews in France and other European countries, and doing just fine.




Obama!!! Most of my friend voted obama and I would have too. His policy on middle east will be same as george bush's.

certainly not. Obama rejected the war in Iraq since the very first day, wants to talk to Iran and Syria, and urgently wants to forge a solution for the Israeli-palestinian conflict.





If anyone thinks otherwise...I pity the fool!!! I pity the fool !!!

let's talk in another year

[Reffo]

And they'll only stop firing missiles if Israel stops occupationHamas's definition of "Occupation" is:

The land between the river (Jordan) and the sea (the Mediterranean)
In other words, what you are admitting here, Takeo, is that Hamas will only stop firing their missiles after they will "liberate" (their term for it) ALL of Palestine, including Israel proper ...

Thank you for admitting that Takeo..

[takeo]

LOL does Takeo realise what he just admitted here? He admitted what we were always trying to tell him: That the Arab objective since 1948 (and even before) was to commit genocide against the Jews ..

And how exactly did you jump to this conclusion????????? Based on what?

[takeo]

Hamas's definition of "Occupation" is:

The land between the river (Jordan) and the sea (the Mediterranean)
In other words, what you are admitting here, Takeo, is that Hamas will only stop firing their missiles after they will "liberate" (their term for it) ALL of Palestine, including Israel proper ...

Thank you for admitting that Takeo..

I always said that Hamas is a disturbing factor. But if Israel makes a peace deal with Abbas, which of cource includes giving back the occupied territories, than Hamas is finished. But Israel is abusing Hamas as a reason not to give back the occupied territories, that's what you can read in "the economist", page 9 to 10.
Besides, if you take Hamas as a separate entity, why not make peace with Abbas (according to Bush in his latest interview an exemplary president) separately, without involving Hamas? Altough they are still occupied, Fatah has not attacked Israel the last year. So what's your excuse right now for not giving back the stolen Westbank and Eastern Jerusalem?

[Reffo]

Er wrong. Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel, and succeeded against nearly all the ME Jews. To qoute Jerry Seinfeld, "we choose not to run." If we went with their program we would win, oh in say half hour or so. Let's not mistake "maybe wont" wit "can't".

Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable even for the US public opinion. It would force other Arab and muslim leaders, such as Iran and Pakistan, to intervene. It could lead to a giant regional war. And the only winner of such a war would be the extremists of Al-Quaida. Certainly not Israel.

LOL does Takeo realise what he just admitted here? He admitted what we were always trying to tell him: That the Arab objective since 1948 (and even before) was to commit genocide against the Jews ..

And how exactly did you jump to this conclusion????????? Based on what?You mean you really don't see? Read my lips then :cool: :

You are saying that if Israel would do to the Arabs what the Arabs have been attempting to do to Israel, it would be genocide.

Did you or didn't you say that?

[Reffo]

I always said that Hamas is a disturbing factor. But if Israel makes a peace deal with Abbas, which of cource includes giving back the occupied territoriesIt takes two to make peace and it takes more than just Israel giving back the "occupied territories". The Palestinians have to explicitly acknowledge Israel as a state for the Jewish people and as such they have to specifically renounce for their so called "Right of Return"! When Abbas will do that, peace will probably happen too..


than Hamas is finished.I am not so sure about that..


But Israel is abusing Hamas as a reason not to give back the occupied territoriesIsrael is abusing Hamas because Hamas abuses Israel.


that's what you can read in "the economist", page 9 to 10.If you say so .... and the Economist is the oracle of all wisdom...


Besides, if you take Hamas as a separate entity, why not make peace with AbbasWhy not indeed, see my answer above ..

[Bheeshma]

Bheeshma

Nonsense, even in its worst days the Soviets still had a lot more money than India.

In your dreams. :rofl: India agreed to repay russian debt in terms of what the value of rouble was before 1991 else the whole debt could have been paid of by TATA alone. Russian economy was poorer than India in the 90's and its only because of oil and gas they have a larger Forex reserve in the past few years. Russian economy = gas and oil. Without that they are back to looking for US aid. :rofl: Soviets had money to waste in cuba and afghanistan thats why russia and russians suffered.






And they'll only stop firing missiles if Israel stops occupation and colonisation. Let's just try it?
Sure I am all for Israel continuing the bombing till Hamas stops the missiles. Lets see which lasts longer the rockets or israeli ammo.





Yes, I heard about Hindu extremists killing christian civilians in Orissa. You can be proud!
Yes and I was proud of it.:clap: The filthy christian missionaries have no place in India and do body cares about them. They distribute medicine and food only if you convert to christianity or else you can go and die somewhere. I am so glad people actually slaughtered them. I also heard about poor sikh students being expelled from classes because of turbans and Jews being attacked in france. What a shining example of democracy and modernity..Sheesh the froggies could a learn a few things from americans.



No, the EU is the largest tradepartner of Israel. Wanna bet for 500$?
I will accept your word for it. But US is the only one that matters. EU is expendable or rather irrelevant.





So why has the US put several Russian statecompanies on the black list because they are allegedly (according to the US) providing nuclear assistance to iraq? Is the US lying?


Iraq? or Iran? Russia is building a nuke power plant. US may see it as a threat but I doubt russia would provide a bomb. That you can rest assured will come via China or there pet pakistan.




In Georgia Stalin is the national hero, he has his own museam and lots of statues. In every Ukrainian city in Eastern- and Southern-Ukraine you see a Lenin statue and streets are named after Lenin, Marx or the Soviet-Union.
Saakashvili is history, even the key memebers of his own party are leaving him. In Ukraine the president accused the prime minister being a Russian spy. The largest party is in opposition and absolutely pro-Russia. According to polls only 30% of Ukrainians want to become member of NATO, only 5% woudl still vote for the pro-Western president.
But you are right about Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They truly hated the Soviet-Union and they would never join again. They also were the countries with the largest share of population collaborating with the nazi's, actively hunting for communists and Jews. Now these collaborators get statues... What a coincidence..
I did not say anything about Ukrainians wanting to join NATO. Stop beating about the bush just because you don't have facts to back you up. I know enough Ukrainians to know that most of them do not want to join with russia in a "republic" again. They don't want enimity with russia but certainly no bear embrace either. Ukraine also collaborated with Nazis FYI.



Do you really mean it? Average Indian in the countryside can't even write or read, doesn't have electricity or a bank account, still lives in the middle Ages. You don't have to believe me, go to the statistics of UNDP for example (www.undp.org)v

In your dreams maybe. Yes India still better than the fascist France and racist europe. Eurabia is just a short step away from glorious islamic age. But then since India was left poor by the europeans who stole everything I guess you would know?





Noone in France gets prosecuted for their religion. In India christians get burned to death by Hindu extremists.
Even the Romani in Italy (and I agree they're not treated nicely) are still FAR better off than the average Indian. They at least have enough food and electricity.
:rofl: Yeah sure...Talk to the sikhs and jews and heck even muslims. Why were muslims rioting in paris? In france a muslim in Hijab can't even dream of education. Talk about persecution. Conformism is as a form of persecution and froggies lead by example. Lol the romanis are treated like dogs. India does not treat its muslims that way. Only missionaries and the so called "christians" who forcibly try to convert people are dealt with as a last resort. Europe is still a racist puke hole and I would not insult India by comparing the two.





This is the first title which pops up when I google "Kashmir elections".
"Violence marks Kashmir election " http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7744724.stm

What a remarcable exemplary democracy; right... :lol:

What a surprise, this is what I get:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KA06Df01.html
But election and freedom of speech must be foriegn to froggies who were busy supplying weapons and supporting tutsi genocide by the Hutus. No wonder chinese style democracy appeals to you.
Pakistani extremists try to disrupt polls but the voters still turn out in large numbers. But then racists and terrorist supporters like you would not understand. You would want the chinese style democracy I am sure.








They are the exception. What do you expect from nazi-collaborators? (a well known historical fact that any Jew should know, since many Baltic troops were responsible for massacres in Belarus and Ukraine). I think they should be rejected from the EU as long as they don't stop discriminating their russian minority.

LOl and stalin was not Hitlers ally? If hitler hadn't attacked russia stalin would have been more than happy to let Hitler finish off all the jews. Russians are also anti-semetic. Russia never planned to save the jews they were just trying to save themselves from Hitler. Nice spin on russia saving the jews but people are not as stupid as you are.




It's still better than what the US achieved in Iraq: (an adventure almost everyone on this forum supported) turning a peaceful country in a living hell. (and than of course they blame it on "the others", "the muslims" etc.)

Sure it is, what is a few million chinese killed by starvation or slaughter. After all french were hand in gloves with the hutus in rwandan genocide or killing of innocent algerians. They were all better than what US achieved in Iraq. Setting up a democratic govt..yuck who needs it.





I don't think so, and Putin is not happy about it. They want to rearm Georgia and try to save the regime.
They can't. Not for long. Georgians are turning against sakashvilli and putin doesn't need to care.






Well actually the Dravidians lived longer in India than the Aryans, all those Aryans, go back to Central-Asia! this is a nonsensical argument.
They weren't drivien of from Europe, Europe is not only nazi-Germany. There are still 100's of 1000's of Jews in France and other European countries, and doing just fine.
The aryan invasion theory was snake oil peddled by british and germans. It has been disproved and was never taught in Indian school curriculum. It is patent rubbish. Try again.

Yeah sure, they willingly moved to gas chambers and concentration camps before taking a vacation to Israel. Yes there are 100's of them left down from what??






certainly not. Obama rejected the war in Iraq since the very first day, wants to talk to Iran and Syria, and urgently wants to forge a solution for the Israeli-palestinian conflict.

Who is talking about Iraq?? His policy on Israel will not change. Why do you think Rahm emanuel is in the cabinet? The solution will not be to Hamas/ Hezbollahs liking. Rest assured Obama knows disarming the militias is the only way forward.



let's talk in another year[/QUOTE]
Yeah sure lets...

[codedvirus]

But then since India was left poor by the europeans who stole everything I guess you would know?

The total amount of treasure extracted from India by the British was 1,000,000,000 pounds--a billion pounds. Considering the looting from 1901 to 1947 and the effects of inflation, this is probably more than a trillion dollars in today's money.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by Takeo
And they'll only stop firing missiles if Israel stops occupation

The son of a Hamas leader has recently stated that Hamas will never stop until Israel is destroyed. Do you really think that YOU know more about Hamas than him? :rofl:

[ItsMyJewty]

Takeo's against anything Israel does. The best policy is to ignore his posts. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

[takeo]

You mean you really don't see? Read my lips then :cool: :

You are saying that if Israel would do to the Arabs what the Arabs have been attempting to do to Israel, it would be genocide.

Did you or didn't you say that?

Wait a moment, I didn't write "genocide". I said that it would be the end of Israel. Apparently, ethnic cleansing and genocide is not the same, I have been told on this forum.
And I have also been told to refrain from using these terms.

[takeo]

Originally Posted by Takeo
And they'll only stop firing missiles if Israel stops occupation

The son of a Hamas leader has recently stated that Hamas will never stop until Israel is destroyed. Do you really think that YOU know more about Hamas than him? :rofl:

well, there has been a truce in the past, and there will be one in the very near present, wanna bet? Hamas-leaders also said that if Israel retreats from the occupied terrirories, there will be a "30 year truce".
Anyway I'm quite sure that if final peace between Abbas and Israel is signed, hamas won'gt last that long. Soon enough Fatah will take back the control over Gaza-strip, and start its own one-party regime, like in much of the Arab world.

[takeo]

Takeo's against anything Israel does. The best policy is to ignore his posts. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm not against anything Israel does. I even said that punitive actions against Hamas were required. But not on this scale, because the civilian casualties will be great propaganda for Hamas. Also, Israel should cooperate with Sarkozy, Abas, the UN and Egypt to achieve a truce, and negociate directly with Hamas.

[takeo]

Bheeshma


In your dreams. :rofl: India agreed to repay russian debt in terms of what the value of rouble was before 1991 else the whole debt could have been paid of by TATA alone. Russian economy was poorer than India in the 90's and its only because of oil and gas they have a larger Forex reserve in the past few years. Russian economy = gas and oil. Without that they are back to looking for US aid. :rofl: Soviets had money to waste in cuba and afghanistan thats why russia and russians suffered.

If India's per capita GNP in 1988 was $340

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n006t647p8363326/

Soviet-Union per capita GNP in 1985 was $ 6350, so almost 20 times more....

http://www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/index.php?display_article=vn123imred

And of course if you compare living standards, the difference is even bigger, especially during the 80's.

human devellopment index
1990:(which wasn't the best of times for Soviet-economy)
Russia: 0.815 (above in the world listing)
India: 0.521 (somewhere down under in the world listing)
China: 0.634

2005:
Russia: 0.803 (it means that living standards in Russia are lower than during Soviet-times!)
India: 0.619
and, just for your information: Cuba: 0.838
So, you're right, the Soviet-Union shouldn't give money to Cuba, better to poorer countries like India.
China: 0.777
France: 0.952
US: 0.951
poorest country Sierra Leone with 0.336
http://hdrstats.undp.org/indicators/10.html



So please cut the cr:p...




the rest of your post I'll reply later.

[Reffo]

You mean you really don't see? Read my lips then :

You are saying that if Israel would do to the Arabs what the Arabs have been attempting to do to Israel, it would be genocide.

Did you or didn't you say that?


Wait a moment, I didn't write "genocide". I said that it would be the end of Israel. Apparently, ethnic cleansing and genocide is not the same, I have been told on this forum.
And I have also been told to refrain from using these terms.Why am I surprised? You are in denial again! You used the word "Genocide" and I quoted you directly from your first entry of YOUR post #31.

You can deny it all you like but anyone is free to look at it :lol: Click Here

[baggi]

well, there has been a truce in the past, and there will be one in the very near present, wanna bet? Hamas-leaders also said that if Israel retreats from the occupied terrirories, there will be a "30 year truce".
Anyway I'm quite sure that if final peace between Abbas and Israel is signed, hamas won'gt last that long. Soon enough Fatah will take back the control over Gaza-strip, and start its own one-party regime, like in much of the Arab world.

impressive 30 years?.. but that is still not a peace deal!.. now plz stop whining so israel can finish it´s work with hamas before obama stops them.

[Bheeshma]

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n006t647p8363326/[/url]

Soviet-Union per capita GNP in 1985 was $ 6350, so almost 20 times more....

http://www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/index.php?display_article=vn123imred

And of course if you compare living standards, the difference is even bigger, especially during the 80's.

human devellopment index
1990:(which wasn't the best of times for Soviet-economy)
Russia: 0.815 (above in the world listing)
India: 0.521 (somewhere down under in the world listing)
China: 0.634

2005:
Russia: 0.803 (it means that living standards in Russia are lower than during Soviet-times!)
India: 0.619
and, just for your information: Cuba: 0.838
So, you're right, the Soviet-Union shouldn't give money to Cuba, better to poorer countries like India.
China: 0.777
France: 0.952
US: 0.951
poorest country Sierra Leone with 0.336
http://hdrstats.undp.org/indicators/10.html

So please cut the cr:p...

the rest of your post I'll reply later.

Takeo
After you filthy europeans stole everything from India, it has only taken us 60 years to stand on our feet. Russian GDP now 1.29 trillion and going down:rofl:. Indian GDP 1.12 trillion and going up. Just wait another 10 years and Russian GDP will be down the drain while India keeps rising. No wonder there were enough russian whores in the streets of India during the 90's. :rofl:.

Sure come back with more lies I just love crushing them...

[kozzol]

takeo wrote


....Anyway I'm quite sure that if final peace between Abbas and Israel is signed, hamas won'gt last that long. Soon enough Fatah will take back the control over Gaza-strip, and start its own one-party regime, like in much of the Arab world.

I agree with that and believe we are doing the dirty work for Fatah so that they can move back into Gaza.

I doubt that Hamas will have much popularity left after bringing all these troubles to the Gazian people and of course Fatah has an old score to settle with Hamas.

[Yala]

I doubt that Hamas will have much popularity left after bringing all these troubles to the Gazian people

Here is the problem. You are projecting. You, as a logical person, would hate Hamas. They will actually love Hamas even more just as the Shiites in Southern Lebanon love Hezbollah even more after their "divine" victory.


I agree with that and believe we are doing the dirty work for Fatah so that they can move back into Gaza.

Can you imagine? Israeli soldiers dying to replace one terrorist party with another!

[kozzol]

I can see your point Yala, but this is different from the Lebanon war with Hezbollah, because Hamas will not have a divine victory.

I am projecting my opinion based upon living in close quarters and working with palestians many, many years ago, and knowing that times have changed with these people. Yes they still want to destroy us but I think they would prefer Fatah to do it their way than live the life which Hamas has just put them through this past 1 1/2 years.

I hope I am right and that Fatah moves back in and civil war takes place again.

[Yala]

because Hamas will not have a divine victory.

Why not? Again, victory to us is one thing, to them it's another. If one member of Hamas is alive they will call it a divine victory. It doesn't matter if 800 of their people died, infrastructure destroyed including their parliament, etc. At the end of his life, Arafat lived in a bombed out house with walls crumbling and was raising the "V" for victory sign day and night.


Yes they still want to destroy us but I think they would prefer Fatah to do it their way than live the life which Hamas has just put them through this past 1 1/2 years.

Poll after poll shows that they actually prefer violence. Hamas may be too passive for them. They may vote for Islamic Jihad next.

[kozzol]

Only time will tell, Arafat was a different kettle of fish and if memory recalls correctly his popularity had wained near to the time of his death.

I believe that this is Israel doing the dirty work for Fatah and as soon as this is over Fatah will move back into Gaza in force, then they will clean up the remanants of Hamas.

Time will tell and as I have already said it is only an opinion, the same way it was my opinion that Ariel Sharon removed the settlements so that Gaza was isolated and I do believe he knew that there would be inter fighting, as history has always shown them to do this, and that this day would come.

[Mediocrates]

Don't pretend to be reasonable now, Takeo, stick with the endless caterwauling about etnic [sic] cleansing, genocide and such. Everything that's not shattered Jewish bodies is that, according to you. Your two-state solution involves Hamas, the PLO and the Arab Israelis. No Jews allowed. Perhaps they should move back to peaceful philosemitic Russia or Iran.

Lather rinse repeat.

[Mediocrates]

Takeo's sense of 'occupation' is any Jew anywhere on earth.

[Bheeshma]

Looks like takeo has gone to dig up more lies and peddle them on the forum. I wonder if I buy him a one way ticket to china if he would move there permanently.

[kozzol]

Doubt it :)

[Yala]

if memory recalls correctly his popularity had wained near to the time of his death.

Because he wasn't violent enough.


it was my opinion that Ariel Sharon removed the settlements so that Gaza was isolated and I do believe he knew that there would be inter fighting, as history has always shown them to do this, and that this day would come.

Agreed.

[takeo]

Why am I surprised? You are in denial again! You used the word "Genocide" and I quoted you directly from your first entry of YOUR post #31.

You can deny it all you like but anyone is free to look at it :lol: Click Here

I used the word "genocide" referring to genocide of Palestinians. (just to avoid any predictable reactions: I didn't say Palestinians are being "genocided", I said this because many members of this forum want to cleanse all Palestinians and all Israeli Arabs from the area between the sea and the Jordan river and call them (all christians and all muslims residing in this area) fitlth!. Than I was critizised, by moderators like mediocrates, because I used the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" repeatedly)

This is a completely different context. When debating with you I never said that Jews in Israel would be genocided. You use the same word in a completetely different context and discussion. That's called fraud.

[Mediocrates]

I don't recall the Wehrmacht stopping their assault on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising for 3 hrs a day. And for what it's worth the International Red Cross never found a thing to criticize in Auschwitz or Thereisenstadt

[Reffo]

Why am I surprised? You are in denial again! You used the word "Genocide" and I quoted you directly from your first entry of YOUR post #31.

You can deny it all you like but anyone is free to look at it :lol:Click Here

I used the word "genocide" referring to genocide of Palestinians. (just to avoid any predictable reactions: I didn't say Palestinians are being "genocided", I said this because many members of this forum want to cleanse all Palestinians and all Israeli Arabs from the area between the sea and the Jordan river and call them (all christians and all muslims residing in this area) fitlth!. Than I was critizised, by moderators like mediocrates, because I used the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" repeatedly)

This is a completely different context. When debating with you I never said that Jews in Israel would be genocided. You use the same word in a completetely different context and discussion. That's called fraud.The only fraudster here is you because the context was: Your admission (a subconscious admission) that the Arabs planned genocide against the Jews.

Again: You said in your post #31 that if Israel would do to the Arabs what the Arabs have been attempting to do to Israel, it would be genocide.

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by takeo:
Also, Israel should cooperate with Sarkozy, Abas, the UN and Egypt to achieve a truce, and negociate directly with Hamas.

Israel doesn't want to negociate with a terrorist organization that's committed to its destruction. Operation Pest Clearance is continuing. :)

[Madeline]

I used the word "genocide" referring to genocide of Palestinians. (just to avoid any predictable reactions: I didn't say Palestinians are being "genocided", I said this because many members of this forum want to cleanse all Palestinians and all Israeli Arabs from the area between the sea and the Jordan river and call them (all christians and all muslims residing in this area) fitlth!. Than I was critizised, by moderators like mediocrates, because I used the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" repeatedly)

This is a completely different context. When debating with you I never said that Jews in Israel would be genocided. You use the same word in a completetely different context and discussion. That's called fraud.
SORRY, double post

[Madeline]

I used the word "genocide" referring to genocide of Palestinians. (just to avoid any predictable reactions: I didn't say Palestinians are being "genocided", I said this because many members of this forum want to cleanse all Palestinians and all Israeli Arabs from the area between the sea and the Jordan river and call them (all christians and all muslims residing in this area) fitlth!. Than I was critizised, by moderators like mediocrates, because I used the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" repeatedly)

This is a completely different context. When debating with you I never said that Jews in Israel would be genocided. You use the same word in a completetely different context and discussion. That's called fraud.
You never said it, but by reading all of your posts, you certainly imply as much. Your Antisemitism makes the hair on my neck stand up.

[takeo]

Israel doesn't want to negociate with a terrorist organization that's committed to its destruction. Operation Pest Clearance is continuing. :)

You have to negociate with the elected government of Palestine. If you don't negociate than the war will go on. Perhaps your sacred principles are worth more than the human lifes of civilians? I think now there's been a UN-resolutions and the international community agrees that there should be a cease-fire. If Israel continues its war, which kills much more civilians than Hamas-militants, international sanctions should follow. Because this war kills more civilians than combatants, the war itself is terrorist. The purpose is to terrorise Palestinians so that they stop supporting Hamas. The result will be exactly the inverse.


Also, what you don't seem to realise, operation " pest clearance" is creating the next generation of Jihadists who hate Israel so much that they will even sacrifice their life for it. Children who lost their mother and other relatives. That's not only what I think, that's what Friedman wrote in the New York Times.

[takeo]

You never said it, but by reading all of your posts, you certainly imply as much. Your Antisemitism makes the hair on my neck stand up.

Yes, I know anyone criticising Israel wants to genocide all Jews, is an anti-semite, the devil in person, the lost son of Hitler, a self-denying Jew (love that word... ) blablablabla been there, done that.

[takeo]

The only fraudster here is you because the context was: Your admission (a subconscious admission) that the Arabs planned genocide against the Jews.

Again: You said in your post #31 that if Israel would do to the Arabs what the Arabs have been attempting to do to Israel, it would be genocide.

Now, I didn't say that. I said they would try to destroy Israel (obnly if Israel would try to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians. If you say that destruction of Israel means genocide, OK, that's your opinion, but than it's my opinion that destroying Palestinian presence in Palestine equals genocide as well.
So, if Israel tries to genocide the Palestinians, the Arabs will try to genocide the Israeli Jews?
According to you the word genocide can only be applied involving Jews or what?

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo:
You have to negociate with the elected government of Palestine. If you don't negociate than the war will go on. Perhaps your sacred principles are worth more than the human lifes of civilians? I think now there's been a UN-resolutions and the international community agrees that there should be a cease-fire. If Israel continues its war, which kills much more civilians than Hamas-militants, international sanctions should follow. Because this war kills more civilians than combatants, the war itself is terrorist. The purpose is to terrorise Palestinians so that they stop supporting Hamas. The result will be exactly the inverse.


Also, what you don't seem to realise, operation " pest clearance" is creating the next generation of Jihadists who hate Israel so much that they will even sacrifice their life for it. Children who lost their mother and other relatives. That's not only what I think, that's what Friedman wrote in the New York Times.

Pest Clearance, by its vey nature, is a renewable operation. Control not elimination. Any enterprise worthy of the name would be doing itself out of business if it eliminated the pests. :D

[takeo]

Takeo's sense of 'occupation' is any Jew anywhere on earth.

i will just copy/past my answer to madeline:
Yes, I know anyone criticising Israel wants to genocide all Jews, is an anti-semite, the devil in person, the lost son of Hitler, a self-denying Jew (love that word... ) blablablabla been there, done that.

[takeo]

I don't recall the Wehrmacht stopping their assault on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising for 3 hrs a day. And for what it's worth the International Red Cross never found a thing to criticize in Auschwitz or Thereisenstadt

So now you're comparing the IDF to the Wehrmacht. That's interesting.
Whenever I have time, I'll reply to bheeshma and others

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally Posted by Madeline:
You never said it, but by reading all of your posts, you certainly imply as much. Your Antisemitism makes the hair on my neck stand up.

I don't think takeo's anti-Semitic. He just holds certain views that clash with ours... It's sometimes difficult for non-Jews to comprehend issues relating to Jews and Israelis. This leads to a great deal of misunderstanding. I hope he gets a better grasp of the situation.

[Madeline]

So now you're comparing the IDF to the Wehrmacht. That's interesting.
Whenever I have time, I'll reply to bheeshma and others
Do you actually read to comprehend someone elses, or your own posts for that matter?

[Madeline]

I don't think takeo's anti-Semitic. He just holds certain views that clash with ours... It's sometimes difficult for non-Jews to comprehend issues relating to jews. This leads to a great deal of misunderstanding. I hope he gets a better grasp of the situation.
I certainly respect your opinion, I just disagree.

[ItsMyJewty]

Yes well, I'm sure that if takeo's town/city/village came under attack from an armed group he'd want swift action taken. Perhaps he'd understand then what it's like to live under the threat of rocket attacks every day.

[scattergood]

Any Jew who can proove his family lived there before 1949 or earlier should have the right to return, on the condition of course that every Palestinian who can proove that his family lived in Israel before 1949 or earlier should have the right to return. I'm all for it. Ethnic cleansing of the past, both in the occcupied territories and Israel, has to be reversed. That's right!

So basically none. Let's ignore the fact that the MAJORITY of Muslims who left Israel did so without ever seeing an Israeli soldier, that there were calls by the Arabs to have them get out of the way of the slaughter, etc. Thanks for showing an utter disregard for facts. Not much else would be expected from the likes of you.

[ItsMyJewty]

I think takeo's a very confused individual. I mean, he's talked a lot about ethnic cleansing and genocide in here, and he's even suggested ways of doing this. He's even accused me of advocating genocide, when I've said no such thing.:scratch: I don't hold this against him, though. There are lots of impressionable people out there who are easily influenced by media propaganda and images.

[bararallu]

I think takeo's a very confused individual. I mean, he's talked a lot about ethnic cleansing and genocide in here, and he's even suggested ways of doing this. He's even accused me of advocating genocide, when I've said no such thing.:scratch: I don't hold this against him, though. There are lots of impressionable people out there who are easily influenced by media propaganda and images.

He accused almost everyone on here of committing or about to commit genocide. He is also an absolutist supporter of the Soviet and Russian imperialism, attempts and execution of genocide and ethnic cleaning. He also back Islamist parties in countries that have a seculists tradition. What he can he projects on to others, and what he cant he sweeps under the carpet.

[ItsMyJewty]

Is takeo worth takeoing seriously, that's the question.

[bararallu]

Is takeo worth takeoing seriously, that's the question.

As much as a programmed automaton can be. ;)

[Madeline]

As much as a programmed automaton can be. ;)
:clap:
I didn't know they made antisemitic automaton.:scratch:

[ItsMyJewty]

Madeline: I didn't know they made antisemitic automaton.

Haven't you been watching the news? Takeo's a walking TV set - he goes round repeating everything they say.

[Reffo]

I used the word "genocide" referring to genocide of Palestinians. (just to avoid any predictable reactions: I didn't say Palestinians are being "genocided", I said this because many members of this forum want to cleanse all Palestinians and all Israeli Arabs from the area between the sea and the Jordan river and call them (all christians and all muslims residing in this area) fitlth!. Than I was critizised, by moderators like mediocrates, because I used the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" repeatedly)

This is a completely different context. When debating with you I never said that Jews in Israel would be genocided. You use the same word in a completetely different context and discussion. That's called fraud.You poor little man .... you are getting so predictable ....

First you put your foot in your mouth...
When someone tells you .... you try to lie your way out of it...
When that does not work, you try obfuscation ...

:lol:

Now try to focus son! This is how you responded to Bararallu in your first entry of your post #31 Click Here:

Bararallu: "Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel"

Takeo: "Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable"

In other words, you in effect admit that the Arabs aimed a genocide against Israel ....

[bararallu]

You poor little man .... you are getting so predictable ....

First you put your foot in your mouth...
When someone tells you .... you try to lie your way out of it...
When that does not work, you try obfuscation ...

:lol:

Now try to focus son! This is how you responded to Bararallu in your first entry of your post #31 Click Here:

Bararallu: "Israel can do to the Arabs easily what the Arabs have attempted to do to Israel"

Takeo: "Israel can't. A genocide of the population (because that's what you're referring to) would not be acceptable"

In other words, you in effect admit that the Arabs aimed a genocide against Israel ....

Reffo,

Our pro Soviet, Hamas apologist should pay you some decent tuition. A life lesson in deductive logic is expensive at the Uni, to have personal instruction is expensive indeed. :clap:

[ItsMyJewty]

Reffo:
Now try to focus son!

I don't think he can.

[Reffo]

I think it's just inconvenient for him to do so :rolleyes:

[ItsMyJewty]

Reffo: I think it's just inconvenient for him to do so

Yes, I can see that from his posts.

[takeo]

I don't have time now to respond to all this nonsense, but I will in a few days.
I said "that's what you're referring to" because I know that's what you were referring to. I've been long enough around on this forum to "know" that the only goal of the "fakestinians" (a Frankenstein people which doesn't exist, they are all secret agents from other Arab countries, aided by Hitler, Stalin and FRANCE, and they drink little babies' blood for breakfast) is to annihilate the Jewish people...
I didn't say "that's what I think as well".
And all this BS about myself isn't even wordt responding to. This debate isn't about takeo. It's about Palestinians (and their friends) versus Israel (and their friends).

What's really interesting is that the mood in the US is changing. Editorialists and columnists (among wich Jews as well, guess I'm not the only "self-denying Jew") in America's most prestigeous media are calling on Obama to get tougher on Israel. I already mentioned "the economist" and "new york times" but today I also read an article in "Newsweek". Let's cite Aaron David Miller, advisor for Democratic and Republican administrations.
"The departure point for a viable peace deal-either with Syria or the Palestinians- must not be based purely on what the political traffic in Israel will bear, but on the requirements of all sides. The new president seems tougher and more focused than his predecessors; he's unlikely to become enthralled by either of Israel's two leading candidates for prime minister, or Likudnik Benjamin Netanyahu. Indeed, the latter may well find himself (like Clinton) privately frustrated with Netanyahu's tough policies. Unlike Clinton, if Israeli behavior crosses the line, he should allow those frustrations to surface publicly in the service of American national interests. The issue at hand is to find the right balance in America's ties with Israel. Driven by shared values and based on America's 60-year commitment to Israel's security and well-being, the special relationship is rock solid. But for the past 16 years, the US has allowed that special bond to become exlusive in ways that undermine America's, Israel's, national interests. If Obama is serious about peacemaking he'll have to adjust that balance in 2 ways. First, whatever the transgressions of the Palestinians, he'll also have to deal with Israel's behavior on the ground The Gaza crisis is a case in point. Israel has every reason to defend itself against Hamas. But does it make sense for America to support its policy of punishing Hamas by making life imbearable for 1.5 million Gazans by denying aid and economic development? The answer is no. Then there's the settlement issue. In 25 years of working on this issue for 6 secretaries of state, I can't recall one meeting where we had a serious discussion with an Israeli prime minister about the damage that settlement activity-including land confiscation, bypass roads and housing demolisions-does to the peacemaking progress. There is a need to impose some accountability. Second, Obama will have to maintain his independence and tactical flexibility to play the mediator's role. This means not road-testing everything with Israel first before previewing it to the other side, a practice we followed scrupulously during the Clinton and Bush years. America must also not agree to every idea proposed by an Israeli prime minister. Our willingness to go along with Barak's make-or-break strategy at the Camp david summit proved very costly where more critical thinking on our side might have helped preempt the catastrophe that followed. Coordinating with Israel or matters relating to its security is one thing. Giving Israel a veto over American negociating tactics and positions, particularly when it comes to bridging gaps between the two sides, is quite another. "

(newsweek, jan. 12 2009, page 18)

No comment, this article, by one of the top people involved in US-Israeli relations since many years, says it all.

[varian]

America needs to mind its own business when it comes to peace. Helping to win two major wars in the last century does not make the US 'peacemakers.' We remain much better at breaking things. Our diplomats, so called, are a world class joke. All the identified evils (minus a few charaters) that were identified in the last century are still alive and well in this century. America has forgotten, that the 'roadmap' to peace has always been by effecting a crushing victory against its enemies. The US now has a modicum of good relations with the former Nazi Germany and the former Imperial Japan. They have not lifted a hand to oppress any other nation in their sphere of influence since then. From Korea on, the emphasis has changed, and more and more Americans have paid the price for their inept leaders and diplomats. A total, crushing victory by one side is the only way to facillitate 'peace;' no matter how short lived that peace may remain.

[pizza4theidf]

The mighty iron fist is the way to go. It's the only language they understand, innit.

[bararallu]

The mighty iron fist is the way to go. It's the only language they understand, innit.

Actually they understand the language of "martyrdom operations" the most for some reason.

[Reffo]

I don't have time now to respond to all this nonsense, but I will in a few days.
I said "that's what you're referring to" because I know that's what you were referring to. I've been long enough around on this forum to "know" that the only goal of the "fakestinians" (a Frankenstein people which doesn't exist, they are all secret agents from other Arab countries, aided by Hitler, Stalin and FRANCE, and they drink little babies' blood for breakfast) is to annihilate the Jewish people...
I didn't say "that's what I think as well".For the life of me, I can't make heads or tails of this ramble :unsure:

First of all, who is he talking to ? :scratch: Secondly, what is he saying ? :scratch: Has he been drinking..... ? :)

[ItsMyJewty]

takeo: the only goal of the "fakestinians" (a Frankenstein people which doesn't exist, they are all secret agents from other Arab countries, aided by Hitler, Stalin and FRANCE, and they drink little babies' blood for breakfast) is to annihilate the Jewish people...

Do try to refrain from projecting your own thoughts and ideas on to others.

[takeo]

For the life of me, I can't make heads or tails of this ramble :unsure:

First of all, who is he talking to ? :scratch: Secondly, what is he saying ? :scratch: Has he been drinking..... ? :)

In response to your post 230, of course. And please refrain from this kind of BS and personal attacks.

And now we're at it, what do you think of the article in newsweek?
This is someone who knows, like noone else, what has been going on the latest 16 years concerning peacemaking, and US-Israeli relations. And I absolutely agree with him. I never imagined that I would once find myself on the side of US-officials and US mainstream media, against people with much more radical toughts, such as you.

[takeo]

Actually they understand the language of "martyrdom operations" the most for some reason.

The only language you understand is violence. You're against peace and against giving up the occupied territories, even if Palestinians would never again fight Israel. Am I wrong?

[ItsMyJewty]

No mail for me this morning, takeo?

[takeo]

America needs to mind its own business when it comes to peace. Helping to win two major wars in the last century does not make the US 'peacemakers.' We remain much better at breaking things. Our diplomats, so called, are a world class joke. All the identified evils (minus a few charaters) that were identified in the last century are still alive and well in this century. America has forgotten, that the 'roadmap' to peace has always been by effecting a crushing victory against its enemies. The US now has a modicum of good relations with the former Nazi Germany and the former Imperial Japan. They have not lifted a hand to oppress any other nation in their sphere of influence since then. From Korea on, the emphasis has changed, and more and more Americans have paid the price for their inept leaders and diplomats. A total, crushing victory by one side is the only way to facillitate 'peace;' no matter how short lived that peace may remain.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict IS America's business. Not only becuase Israel received billions of aid and the most sophisticated weapons, but also because the Middle East is extremely important for the US. AND because this is an international conflict, so anyway it concerns the world's powers.

Cruching the ennemy has not always been the US' strategy. On the contrary, they didn't totally crush Japan, and even the emperor could stay. They gave billions to Germany for rebuilding the country. But this is a different kind of conflict. Whenever you look at similar conflicts where two people fight for the same land, such as in Northern Ireland, it is most important to find a negociated solution, santisfactory to both parties. What Thatcher did, calling IRA terrorists and refusing to talk, escalated the situation. The Blair solution was the right one which brought peace.
Palestinians have already been totally crushed and humiliated, occupied for decades, ethnically cleansed from Israel, and yet their fighting spirit didn't disappear, quite on the contrary. The only solution will be a solution which is satisfactory for both Palestinians and Israeli. Do achieve this the radicals on both sides, who don't want peace or have demands which obstruct peace (refusal to give up occupied territory and colonies, demanding the destruction of Israel) need to be neutralised.
The more Israel wants to crush the Palestinians, the more they'll become radical and support radical groups.

[takeo]

So basically none. Let's ignore the fact that the MAJORITY of Muslims who left Israel did so without ever seeing an Israeli soldier, that there were calls by the Arabs to have them get out of the way of the slaughter, etc. Thanks for showing an utter disregard for facts. Not much else would be expected from the likes of you.

According to Benny Morris 700000 have been forcefully ethnically cleansed.(besides not only muslims but christians as well)

[takeo]

Yes well, I'm sure that if takeo's town/city/village came under attack from an armed group he'd want swift action taken. Perhaps he'd understand then what it's like to live under the threat of rocket attacks every day.

if I was in charge of Israel, I would long ago have made peace with the Palestinians. Just withdraw to the green line, and install a regime you can trust in Eastern Jerusalem. If, nevertheless, Israel is still attacked, THEN I would undertake punitive actions on massive scale. Or, even better, I would ask Egypt to do it for us. But I'm quite sure that any regime in Palestine, would not risk it, just like Egypt or Jordan today. And there would be no need to either. If any group would nevertheless undermine autority with Palestine, I'm quite sure the government would take swift and appropriate action, just like Egypt, Jordan and Syria did in the past. But now there isn't a real government, nor a real state, nor any treaty with Israel.

[takeo]

I don't think takeo's anti-Semitic. He just holds certain views that clash with ours... It's sometimes difficult for non-Jews to comprehend issues relating to Jews and Israelis. This leads to a great deal of misunderstanding. I hope he gets a better grasp of the situation.

This isn't a question of Jew or non-Jew (my blood is 75% Jewish by the way), there are many American, French even Israeli Jews who share my opinion. Equally so, there are non-Jews who are very radical pro-Israel and anti-Arab.

[takeo]

Pest Clearance, by its vey nature, is a renewable operation. Control not elimination. Any enterprise worthy of the name would be doing itself out of business if it eliminated the pests. :D

Problem is that you make Palestinians more radical with such actions. even the ones who still beleived in peace and didn't support Hamas, now certainly changed their opinion. Israel could have attacked a few Hamas-buildings in retaliation, but by attacking civilians they proved to be no better than Hamas. By refusing to negociate with hamas (while at the same time not really giving any hope to Abbas either), Israel reinforced the believe that only the armed struggle can liberate Palestine, not negociations.

[pizza4theidf]

Israel never targets civilians - what are you talking about? :confused:

[takeo]

You never said it, but by reading all of your posts, you certainly imply as much. Your Antisemitism makes the hair on my neck stand up.

how and where did I imply it? If you accuse someone of a very serious accusation like that, you need to give proof... or can you read minds?

How can I be anti-semitic? I can't stand people who use the terms "anti-semitism" or "Holocaust" in any discussion concerning Israel, just because they lack arguments. It's disgusting to abuse the legacy of these people who suffered so much to defend Israel's current policy. This kind of behavior only benefits the real antisemites. Go to stormfront.com and meet some real anti-semites.