Palestinian Civilian Casualties

[NewsGuy]

As I watched TV reports of Israel’s military operation in Gaza, I was struck by the universal concern with the ongoing civilian casualties of the residents of Gaza. I heard various Muslim interviewees calling the situation “a massacre,” and the like. The pictures of the Palestinian dead were comprised of scenes of women and children being rushed to the hospital bleeding.

Watching these TV reports, I was almost convinced that there was not a single Hamas soldier in Gaza, nor a single rocket ever fired on Israeli civilians and, actually, no males living in Gaza, except for the hospital physicians. Apparently, there are also no women or children suffering in Israel, no Jewish casualties, no decades of Palestinian terrorism, and no Iranian weapons and financing flowing into Gaza.

To watch CNN or BBC news, there are only two kinds of people living in the Middle East: Evil Israeli soldiers bent on genocide for no reason, and Palestinian women and children who are 100% innocent and haven’t the slightest idea why the Israeli soldiers are in Gaza.

Truly amazing… but I’m not buying it.

I do believe that the Palestinian people are suffering now, and I am saddened by it. It is true that any innocent Palestinian who is used by Hamas terrorists as a human shield and then injured in the war that Hamas started, is a tragedy. Like the various Muslim interviewees on CNN, I too, would like to see all people in the Middle East able to live in peace and freedom. However, unlike the Muslims and their Leftist apologists, I do not believe that Hamas is entitled to have the freedom to use Gaza as a launching pad to mass-murder Jewish families at will – as it has done for the past decade.

I am also saddened by the fact that having Hamas in control of a land situated in Israel’s border has forced Israel to sacrifice its soldiers to stop the rockets from being fired into Jewish homes, schools, and temples. The situation is like having Osama bin Ladin running a country sharing a border with the United States and firing rockets into American cities. Obviously, it is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue.

There are two competing interests in Gaza right now: Israel wants to strike at Hamas and eliminate the Muslim terrorists’ ability to fire rockets into Israeli homes. The IDF wants to do so with minimum civilian casualties. On the other hand, Hamas is interested in maximizing civilian casualties, because the misleading TV pictures are causing anti-Israeli sentiment that they hope will lead to a cease-fire that includes international legitimacy for the Islamic terrorist organization.

To that end, Hamas has stockpiled enormous quantities of explosives in civilian homes and is launching rockets at Israel from Palestinian homes and schools that are filled with children. Every dead Palestinian child brings a trophy for Hamas and for Muslims worldwide: The Leftist media will reward them with even more sympathy for the Islamic cause. After all, if Hamas is able to cause Israel to shoot back at Palestinian homes from where Hamas is firing, the world will love the Palestinians even more.

So far, unfortunately, Hamas seems to be winning the PR war. And it is doing it at the expense of the Palestinian civilian population. No matter, what counts is that the global Jihad is going as planned.

[Tonto]

Newsguy, I gotta tell ya that you really nailed it! The entire exercise has been planned, prepared and executed by hamas with carefully considered purpose to maximize civilian casualties. I think that is why Israel is sending in ground troops, in part at least. Israel needs to seek out and destroy all the arms caches they can find at a minimal casualty rate for civilians. That wrecks hamas' careful plan because, as IDF movement goes forward, proof positive of WHERE munitions and fighters are hidden is a factor that has a direct effect on world opinion. There is no doubt that munitions and fighters are hidden in mosques and civilian centers like schools and hospitals and private homes, especially those with lots of kids in them. The world needs to be shown that because hamas is denying that it does that. As you said, hamas likes nothing better than a giant civilian body count. I think the only thing that will cause Israel to leave Gaza now is excessive Israeli casualties....and right now they're 0 for 30 armed hamas thugs killed. Israeli casualties are only wounded, although some are serious. I think that hezbullah taught the IDF a bunch of good lessons on muz ambush techniques that Israel has figured out the answers for....it's ALWAYS training that make the difference in military operations.
Some female palestinian was on Fox tonight and was saying "Oh me! Oh my! The Israelis have been starving us and preventing medicines to come into Gaza." Well, my question is: How did all those brand new Iranian rockets get there instead of food, fuel and medicine? But nobody seems willing to ask that question. The hezbullah leader's kid was on Fox too (the one that went apostate and converted to Christianity) and he said islam will be dead in 10 years. I pray to GOD Almighty he's right. So many people dead for nothing but BS from a lunatic raider, slaver and killer. Pitiful!

[NewsGuy]

Some female palestinian was on Fox tonight and was saying "Oh me! Oh my! The Israelis have been starving us and preventing medicines to come into Gaza." Well, my question is: How did all those brand new Iranian rockets get there instead of food, fuel and medicine? But nobody seems willing to ask that question.
Right on.

After Israel foolishly gave Hamas the Jewish towns of Gaza in 2005, the Palestinians had the freedom to build a thriving, successful state. Instead of doing so, they spent all their time and money building a bizarre underground maze of smuggling tunnels and weapons caches.

In many ways, Gaza is really typical of the Muslim world, in which they prefer to make bombs than make a living.

The hezbullah leader's kid was on Fox too (the one that went apostate and converted to Christianity) and he said islam will be dead in 10 years. I pray to GOD Almighty he's right. So many people dead for nothing but BS from a lunatic raider, slaver and killer. Pitiful!
Fascinating story. I saw it too. I wanted to post some of the transcript here.

[serdar]

nobody mentions use of civilians as human shield. we people use technologic intelligence for most of airstrikes no matter which military is.. sending dozens of mortar and/or qassam rockets in between of civilian families is not fair. If arabs want a fair fight they should play by the combat rules. the most important rule is to prevent civilian causalities; am I right here?
Israelis might use uneven strike power but hey isn't Hamas confident of it? Thus they're confident of possibility of civilian causalities.
and they're acting the victim.
give them hell

[codedvirus]

"Brave" HAMAS Gunmen firing on the Israeli Defense Force while hiding in a crowd of children knowing that the Israelis will not deliberately fire on children. This exactly what is expected from cowardly terrorists.

[andak01]

First of all, I'm happy that the ground operations are underway, because I believe that will reduce the civilian casualties. Second, I'm glad that Israel has done everything possible to reduce their own civilian casualties. Third, I believe there really are IDF soldiers that are making attempts to reduce civilian casualties, some of which are going to be unavoidable. To those, my hat is off for performing admirably in a very difficult situation. None of us I hope wants Hamas to end up more popular at the end of this conflict than when it began.

[Hisardut]

First of all, I'm happy that the ground operations are underway, because I believe that will reduce the civilian casualties. Second, I'm glad that Israel has done everything possible to reduce their own civilian casualties. Third, I believe there really are IDF soldiers that are making attempts to reduce civilian casualties, some of which are going to be unavoidable. To those, my hat is off for performing admirably in a very difficult situation. None of us I hope wants Hamas to end up more popular at the end of this conflict than when it began.

soilders should not go in, just need to napalm the whole coast.

[serdar]

soilders should not go in, just need to napalm the whole coast.
then things will get hairy.

[dayag]

soilders should not go in, just need to napalm the whole coast.

I hope that is hyperbole. I'd hate to see a fellow Jew advocating genocide.

[Steven]

First of all, I'm happy that the ground operations are underway, because I believe that will reduce the civilian casualties. Second, I'm glad that Israel has done everything possible to reduce their own civilian casualties. Third, I believe there really are IDF soldiers that are making attempts to reduce civilian casualties, some of which are going to be unavoidable. To those, my hat is off for performing admirably in a very difficult situation. None of us I hope wants Hamas to end up more popular at the end of this conflict than when it began.

Days after andak gets bashed for his usual "disproportionate force" comments, he does his usual backtrack.:tdown:

[Steven]

Fascinating story. I saw it too. I wanted to post some of the transcript here.

Please do, the world will be better off if he is correct.

[codedvirus]

Please do, the world will be better off if he is correct.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html

Son of Hamas Leader Turns Back on Islam and Embraces Christianity

Mosab Hassan Yousef is an extraordinary young man with an extraordinary story. He was born the son of one of the most influential leaders of the militant Hamas organization in the West Bank and grew up in a strict Islamic family.

Now, at 30 years old, he attends an evangelical Christian church, Barabbas Road in San Diego, Calif. He renounced his Muslim faith, left his family behind in Ramallah and is seeking asylum in the United States.

The story of how his life unfolded is truly amazing, whether you agree or disagree with his views. Below is a transcript on an exclusive FOX News interview with Hassan as he tells firsthand how a West Bank Muslim became a West Coast Christian.
-----------------

to view video of Mosab Hassan Yousef speaking out..........http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html

[codedvirus]

Son of Hamas Leader Turns Back on Islam and Embraces Christianity
..........http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html

JONATHAN HUNT: Why, after 25 years, did you change?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: I believe that all those walls that Islam built for the last 1,400 years are not existing (sic) anymore. They don't recognize this. They built those walls and made people ignorant because they're afraid. They didn't want people to discuss anything about the reality of Islam, about the big questions of Islam and they asked their followers, the Muslims, 'Don't ask about those certain questions.'

But now, people have media. If the father closes the door for his daughter not to leave the house, she's going to go behind her computer and travel the world. So people easily can get information, knowledge, searching (sic) engines, so it's very, very available for everybody to study about Islam, about other religions. Not from the Islam point of view, but from other points of view.

So for the next 25 years this is for sure going to make huge change in the Muslim and the Arab world.

JONATHAN HUNT: You speak from a unique perspective, a man who grew up not just in an Islamic family but as part of an organization seen by many people around the world as an extreme force in Islam: Hamas. What is the reality of Islam? You say people don't see the reality; What is the reality of Islam?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: There are two facts that Muslims don't understand ... I'd say about more than 95 percent of Muslims don't understand their own religion. It came with a much stronger language than the language that they speak so they don't understand it ... they rely only on religious people to get their knowledge about this religion.

Second, they don't understand anything about other religions. Christian communities live between Muslims and they're minority and they (would) rather not to go speak out and tell people about Jesus because it's dangerous for them.

So, all their ideas about other religions on earth are from Islamic perspectives. So those two realities, most people don't understand.

If people, if Muslims, start to understand their religion — first of all, their religion — and see how awful stuff is in there, they'll start to figure out, this can't (be) ... because most religious people focus on certain points of Islam. They have many points that they are very embarrassed to talk about.

JONATHAN HUNT: Such as?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: Such as Muhammad's wives. You will never go to a mosque and hear about anyone talking about Muhammad's wives, which is like more than 50 wives — and nobody knows (this), by the way. If you ask the majority of Muslims, they will not know this fact.

So they're embarrassed to talk about this, but they talk about the glory of Islam, they talk about the victory, the victories that Muhammad made. So, when people just like look at themselves and see they're defeated, they have ignorance, they're not educated, they're not leading the world as they're expected to do. They’re think they want to get back to that victory by doing the same, what Muhammad did, but disregarding (sic) the timing. They forget that this happened 1,400 years ago and it's not going to happen again.

JONATHAN HUNT: Do they want to destroy Christianity?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: Islam destroyed Christianity from the beginning and Muslims don't recognize that they stabbed Christianity (in) its heart when they said that Jesus wasn't killed on the cross. They think that they honor him in this way.

Basically, any Christians understand that this way, (but Muslims) tell Jesus, okay, we don't care, you didn't die for us. Someone sacrificed his life for you, (but) you tell him, okay, you didn't do it!

This is what Muslims are doing basically. But they don't understand that this is the most important part of Christianity: the cross!

So, they are ignorant, they don't know what they are doing and it explains what an evil idea it is behind this Islam.

JONATHAN HUNT: What specific event or events began to change your mind about Islam?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: Since I was a child I started to ask very difficult questions, even my family was telling me all the time, 'You're a very difficult person and we were having trouble answering your questions. Why are you asking so many questions?' This was from the beginning, to be honest with you.

But I felt that everybody — and my father was a good example for me because he was a very honest, humble person, very nice to my mother, to us, and raised us on the principle of forgiveness, okay? I thought that everybody in Islam was like this.

When I was 18 years old, and I was arrested by the Israelis and was in an Israeli jail under the Israeli administration, Hamas had control of its members inside the jail and I saw their torture; (they were) torturing people in a very, very bad way.

JONATHAN HUNT: Hamas members torturing other Hamas members?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: Hamas leaders! Hamas leaders that we see on TV now, and big leaders, responsible for torturing their own members. They didn't torture me, but that was a shock for me, to see them torturing people: putting needles under their nails, burning their bodies. And they killed lots of them.

JONATHAN HUNT: Why were they torturing people?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: Because they suspected that they had relations with the Israelis and (were) co-operating with the Israeli occupation against Hamas ... So hundreds of people were victims for this, and I was a witness for about a year for this torture. So that was a huge change in my life. I started to open my (eyes), but, the point (is) that I got that there are good Muslims and bad Muslims. Good Muslims, such as my father, and bad Muslims, like those Hamas members in the jail torturing people.
............to read the complete artcle go to
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html

[Tonto]

Yeah, according to the fakestilians, all the casualties so far are widows and orphan kiddies that are starving and denied medical treatment because there are no medicines. What no one has mentioned on the MSM is that hamas precipitated this whole thing by shooting rockets and mortars into Israel. Amazing considering there isn't even a shred of plausible denialbility. There have been no pointed questions about how it was possible to ship vast quantities of arms and munitions while failing to ship in medicine, fuel and food to provide for the civilians. Odd how denialbility works.
The bottom line is that Israel must continue, if for no other reason than to prove that these are lies to the world, and that hamas is really the "bad guy" as portrayed, who has no concern whatsoever for the civilians hamas depends on for support around them. Civilians are simply "cannon fodder" for hamas and the "prefered" casualty for hamas....as a political toy.

[andak01]

The reason Muslims don't know that Muhammad had more than 50 wives is because it didn't happen. After all, he wasn't Solomon!

[Mosche]

Re: The Palestinian Casualties

1. I find it to be deceitful that there is no distinction drawn between so-called "innocent civilians" and "not-so-innocent civilians". If a civilian decides to hide a Hamas agent in his or her home, then that civilian is not an "innocent civilian". Similarly, if a civilian allows his or her home to be used for weapons storage, that civilian is not "innocent". Thus, if those civilians suffer injury, or worse, so be it.

2. After watching the IDF videos, I am convinced that the rockets that were being launced were witnessed by civilians in the area. The civilians who witnessed the rocket launches, and did nothing to stop those launches are NOT innocent.

3. When celebrities such as Annie Lennox and Roseanne Barr voice their concern for civilians in Gaza, I am angered that NO ONE asks them: "Why were you not protesting when innocent civilians in Israel were being bombarded by rockets on a daily basis?"

Don't allow them false apologies, press them on the issue! "I'm sorry Ms. Lennox/Barr, but you have not answered my question! If you are really concerned about innocent civilians, why weren't you protesting before?"

I think that news reporters should STOP trying to be nice/friendly, and start being reporters again! If entertainers want to enter the fray, so be it, but they better know that they are not dealing with their star-struck fan base.


4. Regarding the Hamas-turned-Christian guy, I've watched the interview twice now. Did anyone else get a weird vibe from him? Not so sure that I would trust him as far as I could throw him--hopefully I'm wrong.

[Rob]

Don´t forget the Pallywood factor:

Hamas killings blamed on Israel (http://muslimtv.magnify.net/video/ISRAEL-CARNAGE-CIVILIANS-CHILDR)

The real story (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719)

[Steve369]

Well I think what you guys and gals are saying is that one "lie" leads to another. It's also interesting that there is little to no Arab out-cry when innocent Muslims are killed by their own people.

http://www.sanddust.com/pluplayer.html

[Y. Shulamith]

I can't even watch CNN and Yahoo news is so biased that I wrote them an e-mail about it and await a response. The Yahoo story was written by an Arab and so totally slanted and full of rhentoric that it was more hateful spewing than reporting.

[Tonto]

Right, but he did have 14...because after all, he was the boss and rule don't apply. An early example of RHIP.

[ShimonG]

Right, but he did have 14...because after all, he was the boss and rule don't apply. An early example of RHIP.

Right, lets not blame the pervert, shall we. Its hardly his fault if he has the hots for a 9-yr old child and his own daughter-in-law.

[Tonto]

Shimon, Lots of folks don't know he got his adopted son killed so he could "marry" and bang his daughter-in-law. The dude was a real cold dog.

[Cole Younger]

I just blasted the UK Guardian newspaper for their totally biased and inaccurate article in today's on-line edition concerning these civilian casualties. Israeli forces may have pulled the triggers that killed these people but it was Hamas that murdered them by hiding behind them. Hamas bears 100% of the blame for these unnecessary deaths and the mounting misery there...You'd think these valiant warriors could have spared at least a few of their rocket and weapons smuggling runs to bring in food, water, medical supplies, hospital generators and fuel for the generators...but no; fomenting mayhem, killing Israeli women and children, and doing all within their power to bring on this incursion and having bloodied bodies to wave before idiotic European reporters was more important than protecting the people over whom they have charge.

These creatures are so foul and vile they have lost any claim to being human. Even the civilians who provided material support to Hamas, but who don't themselves carry weapons should have been protected...

To Israel, I wish peace with security. To the peoples of terrorist-occupied Gaza, The West Bank and other regions now under the boot of the beasts I wish peace with security. To the killers -- no matter to which group they belong -- I wish an early and unhappy meeting with Allah.

[Y. Shulamith]

It is important for peoples who post here to make sure that they let their voices be heard in the newspapers, TV stations and all forms of communication where outright lies, exaggerations, and misinformation is being disseminated.

Only through this can we hope to make a dent in letting the real truths be known and not let the Pan-Arabic/Islamic movement take over the world wide communications and distort already perverted opinions, further.

We must all speak up loudly and forcefully!

[KiwiWriter]

Re: The Palestinian Casualties

1. I find it to be deceitful that there is no distinction drawn between so-called "innocent civilians" and "not-so-innocent civilians". If a civilian decides to hide a Hamas agent in his or her home, then that civilian is not an "innocent civilian". Similarly, if a civilian allows his or her home to be used for weapons storage, that civilian is not "innocent". Thus, if those civilians suffer injury, or worse, so be it.



Also have to wonder how many of the civilians were actually terrorists who weren't wearing uniforms.



2. After watching the IDF videos, I am convinced that the rockets that were being launced were witnessed by civilians in the area. The civilians who witnessed the rocket launches, and did nothing to stop those launches are NOT innocent.



There's also the ploy of positioning rockets among civilian population and using civies as human shields. Liberal's are very good at taking their kids along on protests simply so it makes the police look bad on tv.



3. When celebrities such as Annie Lennox and Roseanne Barr voice their concern for civilians in Gaza, I am angered that NO ONE asks them: "Why were you not protesting when innocent civilians in Israel were being bombarded by rockets on a daily basis?"



Not much was mentioned in the lamestream media until Israel acted. That's the way it usually goes. Terrorists can shoot at school buses and unarmed mothers with their children and the lamestream media remains silent. Israel hits a launcher and a few civies who are stupid enough to be close to it are killed and the lamestream media goes nuts.



I think that news reporters should STOP trying to be nice/friendly, and start being reporters again! If entertainers want to enter the fray, so be it, but they better know that they are not dealing with their star-struck fan base.



That's why they're called "Reporters." All they do is report what they're given and don't actually go out and look for themselves.

[Mosche]

Hey Kiwi,

I would be happy if reporters just reported the news. Unfortunately, reporters no longer report the news, they editorialize. I believe that many people have lost the ability to think for themselves--they don't need to think for themselves when Chris Matthews will tell them exactly what to think. FOX news is often just as bad, lest anyone try to defend them: Bill O'Reilly is pure spin...despite his assurance of the contrary!

I will say, however, that FOX has reported on the Israeli war in the MOST fair manner. MSNBC makes me want to kick the TV.

[Yala]

I will say, however, that FOX has reported on the Israeli war in the MOST fair manner.

Let's be honest, Fox is pro-Israel, but they should be! Should they be presenting Hamas's talking points like the other networks???

MSNBC makes me want to kick the TV.

Joe Scarborough is the only Israel supporter on that whole station. They have Pat Buchanan on there to do "fair" analysis for G-d's sake, but to be honest he is more pro-Israel than most of their anchors, even more than the Jewish anchors of, course.

[Rob]

Especially Al-jazeera has a lot of blood on their hands, IMO. Israeli´s should boycott it and not to let them be used in their hate-mongering talk. No more interviews on Al-jazeera!

[Yala]

Especially Al-jazeera has a lot of blood on their hands, IMO. Israeli´s should boycott it and not to let them be used in their hate-mongering talk. No more interviews on Al-jazeera!

Why ban al-jiz but not the BBC and/or CNN? They are so much worse and do so much more damage b/c people are under the impression that these networks are honest and have credibility. AJ already has a bad name, but not those 2.

[yonatan]

nobody mentions use of civilians as human shield.

You wouldn't want the reporters to strain themselves, would you? They might have to do a little research. That would be . . . hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs

[codedvirus]

The reason Muslims don't know that Muhammad had more than 50 wives is because it didn't happen.

Bravo!!! ...:clap:

You have raised the bar. That's the spirit Andak01.

Steven wasn't HAMAS son Muslim.

[andak01]

Bravo!!! ...:clap:

You have raised the bar. That's the spirit Andak01.

Steven wasn't HAMAS son Muslim.

Muhammad's wives were the eleven or thirteen women married to the Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) prophet Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives

If an apostate wants to publicly criticize Islam, I'd suggest they use facts rather than fiction to do it, not that a receptive public after being 24/7 infused with anti-Islam propaganda really cares much about the facts.

[codedvirus]

Muhammad's wives were the eleven or thirteen women married to the Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) prophet Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad).


Thanks for that misleading information. (andak01 - I Never Trust wikipedia information because anybody can edit it. You might see different figure after some time.)

I knew from the beginning Prophet Muhammad had Nine Wives.

1) Lady Khadijah 2) Lady Aishah 3) Umm Salamah 4) Umm Habibah 5) Zainab bint Jahsh 6) Juwayriyah bint Harith 7) Safiyyah bint Huyayy 8) Sawdah bint Zamaa 9) Hafsah bint Umar


MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF: There are two facts that Muslims don't understand ... I'd say about more than 95 percent of Muslims don't understand their own religion.

You just proved the above statement correct.

[Justcurious]

Nine wives or more... Well, nowadays men often have one-night stands, so nothing changes.

[bararallu]

Nine wives or more... Well, nowadays men often have one-night stands, so nothing changes.

What does homosexuality have to do with any of this? :unsure:

[serdar]

What does homosexuality have to do with any of this? :unsure:

I guess he is on drugs

[andak01]

Thanks for that misleading information. (andak01 - I Never Trust wikipedia information because anybody can edit it. You might see different figure after some time.)

I knew from the beginning Prophet Muhammad had Nine Wives.

So my contention that saying he had over 50 is a blatent lie stands. I said there is no valid source for that assertion and that is true. I've never seen an estimate of half that. MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF was lying. I simply produced a single source that validates that he was lying. Any other source that says 9 wifes, 15 wives or anything less than his claim of over 50 shows him to be lying.

So now then, what would you say about me if I made a contention that most Jews and Christians don't know their own religion and followed that with a false statement about one or the other? I suppose if I was some wingnut like Ann Coulter, I'd get a pass around here.

[codedvirus]

So my contention that saying he had over 50 is a blatent lie stands. I said there is no valid source for that assertion and that is true. I've never seen an estimate of half that. MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF was lying. I simply produced a single source that validates that he was lying. Any other source that says 9 wifes, 15 wives or anything less than his claim of over 50 shows him to be lying.

Shouldn't you know How many wives Prophet Mohamed has? Don't you pray five times a day ?

Why were u searching for the information in Wikipedia?

[andak01]

Shouldn't you know How many wives Prophet Mohamed has? Don't you pray five times a day ?

Why were u searching for the information in Wikipedia?

It skips me past the part where you say I got it from some Islamic resource and call me a liar for that. Now you can just call Wikipedia liars.

[codedvirus]

It skips me past the part where you say I got it from some Islamic resource and call me a liar for that. Now you can just call Wikipedia liars.

(andak01 - I Never Trust wikipedia information because anybody can edit it. You might see different figure after some time.)

Till date i never called you a liar and i never will. I don't trust wikipedia information and nobody should because it can be edited by anyone.

When you don't have a answer for my question you change the topic. This is the second or third time your doing it. I hope you remember something about Snipers & Night Vision.

Now my question to u was

Shouldn't you know How many wives Prophet Mohamed has? Don't you pray five times a day ?

Why were u searching for the information in Wikipedia? (Don't you have books or any other resources. I just think You should know the answer.)

--------------

Moderators - We are really sorry for having a debate which if OFF the Topic. Please delete the messages.

[andak01]

Shouldn't you know How many wives Prophet Mohamed has?

I could go my whole life as a Muslim and never have to know this. Besides, there is some dispute over the exact number. There is no dispute about whether he had over 50 wives. If this guy wants to claim that Muslims don't know our faith, making an unsubstantiated statement that no Muslim believes is a poor start.

Don't you pray five times a day ?

Less than 50. :)

Why were u searching for the information in Wikipedia? (Don't you have books or any other resources. I just think You should know the answer.)

I said the answer. Proving that he didn't have over 50 wives doesn't require an exact number. For example, if I claim the moon is made of cheese, you don't have to give me a list of all the cheeses it isn't made of! He made the claim and it is his responsibility to provide evidence for it (or it would be anywhere but IF).

As for deleting off topic posts, I'm fine with that. I'm not sure how the apostate son of a Hizbollah leader is NOT off topic to Palestinian casualties however.

[Yala]

Who cares how many wives Mohammed had 1400 years ago? You guys have got to have better things to argue about.

[bararallu]

Who cares how many wives Mohammed had 1400 years ago? You guys have got to have better things to argue about.

Yeah, Ghengis definitely had more!

[codedvirus]

Who cares how many wives Mohammed had 1400 years ago? You guys have got to have better things to argue about...........:stick:

You forgot to use the stick.



------------------
Moderators please delete our messages.

[Tonto]

The BBC and CNN already do has a crappy rep here in the states among conservatives...as being libtard liars....but are nothing compared to the outright lies and "manufactured" news on MSNBC. MSNBC kinda reminds me of the stuff they put on MEMRITV for us to laugh at and be horrified by. They all have been crying about arab civilian casualties all day. No mention of attacks on Israelis for the last 60 years......so I guess the Jews should just shut up and die like good little dhimmis. I really don't care how many casualties the arabs suffer. They have asked for this beating for 60 years. I really think they feel good about it. It seems to make them feel fulfilled or something. Bless their little hearts.

[Mosche]

The BBC and CNN already do has a crappy rep here in the states among conservatives...as being libtard liars....but are nothing compared to the outright lies and "manufactured" news on MSNBC. MSNBC kinda reminds me of the stuff they put on MEMRITV for us to laugh at and be horrified by. They all have been crying about arab civilian casualties all day. No mention of attacks on Israelis for the last 60 years......so I guess the Jews should just shut up and die like good little dhimmis. I really don't care how many casualties the arabs suffer. They have asked for this beating for 60 years. I really think they feel good about it. It seems to make them feel fulfilled or something. Bless their little hearts.


Well I say, "Let's give'em something to feel good about!":stick::stick::stick:

[KiwiWriter]

Hey Kiwi,

I would be happy if reporters just reported the news. Unfortunately, reporters no longer report the news, they editorialize. I believe that many people have lost the ability to think for themselves--they don't need to think for themselves when Chris Matthews will tell them exactly what to think. FOX news is often just as bad, lest anyone try to defend them: Bill O'Reilly is pure spin...despite his assurance of the contrary!

I will say, however, that FOX has reported on the Israeli war in the MOST fair manner. MSNBC makes me want to kick the TV.

I would be happy with investigative journalists who actually research their stories instead of paraphrase the press release.

[KiwiWriter]

Why ban al-jiz but not the BBC and/or CNN? They are so much worse and do so much more damage b/c people are under the impression that these networks are honest and have credibility. AJ already has a bad name, but not those 2.

I have to agree with Yala on this point. The BBC and CNN are the ones who talk about how balanced and fair they are. At least with AJ you pretty much know what you're getting.

[Tonto]

As far as I can see, all news has a bias, voluntary or not.....there has to be a view from which it is taken. The best anyone can do is to take a look at every available source and evaluate from there....that way one can input their own bias. I'm sure, especially with internet access, anyone can find multiple viewpoints to hear any number of "sides" to any story. All one needs do then is to try to seperate the more obvious lies and predjudices from the "facts". Pity those who only have limited sources....they are actually victims, and sometimes, tools.

[pizza4theidf]

What also annoys me is when the media choose to interview Israeli spokespeople who give the impression of lying, or being callous (or maybe the footage is edited as to appear this way), rather than spokespeople who appear more honest, of which I am sure there are many. It seems like they deliberately pick the worst moments to make Israel appear in the worst possible light.

[KiwiWriter]

What also annoys me is when the media choose to interview Israeli spokespeople who give the impression of lying, or being callous (or maybe the footage is edited as to appear this way), rather than spokespeople who appear more honest, of which I am sure there are many. It seems like they deliberately pick the worst moments to make Israel appear in the worst possible light.


The cutting room and journos can be very creative. (So can photographers who use photoshop :D).

[Mosche]

As far as I can see, all news has a bias, voluntary or not.....there has to be a view from which it is taken. The best anyone can do is to take a look at every available source and evaluate from there....that way one can input their own bias. I'm sure, especially with internet access, anyone can find multiple viewpoints to hear any number of "sides" to any story. All one needs do then is to try to seperate the more obvious lies and predjudices from the "facts". Pity those who only have limited sources....they are actually victims, and sometimes, tools.


I think that you are correct to assert that there is inherent bias. However, the goal of a reporter--not an editorial WRITER--ought to be to present the news with a minimal amount of editorializing. Unfortunately, news has become synonymous with entertainment. Thus, what is labeled as news is little more than editorializing.

I also agree with your second assertion that people should "take a look at every available source and evaluate...." The problem is that this assumes that people are willing to search for the news. If my students are any indication of society as a whole, then I have to assume that society will typically take short-cuts. Why do research, when Chris Matthews will readily tell them what to think.

This takes me back to the thread: Palestinian Civilian Casualties. Why would Chris Matthews report on the nuts and bolts of Middle East affairs? After all, Chris Matthews is an entertainer; if he doesn't entertain, he doesn't have a job. Thus Matthews, like many of his cronies, highlight civilian casualties to boost ratings.

The only solution to the "Chris Matthews" paraadigm is to return to the era of bland, but real, news. I'm no dummy, however--it ain't gonna happen!

[Mosche]

What also annoys me is when the media choose to interview Israeli spokespeople who give the impression of lying, or being callous (or maybe the footage is edited as to appear this way), rather than spokespeople who appear more honest, of which I am sure there are many. It seems like they deliberately pick the worst moments to make Israel appear in the worst possible light.


Again, I think this is part of the entertainment part of the so-called news. Why interview an intelligent, well-spoken individual, when Jerry Springer types will boost ratings? Similarly, why take innocuous photos? Blood and gore sells subscriptions and wins awards.

[Y. Shulamith]

Exactly what part of "never again" don't adversaries all around the world along with Hamas, Hizbollah, Palestinians, et al., not understand?:clap:

Sometimes I really wonder about people......:stick:

[pizza4theidf]

Again, I think this is part of the entertainment part of the so-called news. Why interview an intelligent, well-spoken individual, when Jerry Springer types will boost ratings? Similarly, why take innocuous photos? Blood and gore sells subscriptions and wins awards.

Yep, there are plenty of innocuous photos to be taken of the view of the Gaza Strip at the moment, but they always choose to take the ones with bombs and smoke coming out of them, and chaotic scenes of people running everywhere. Why can't the media portray a more positive image, like families sitting down at the beach, or something?

It's the same with the so-called "settlers" in the West Bank. Why do the media always have to portray them as murderous nutters rather than people living peacefully on their own land?

[Mosche]

By inocuous, I didn't mean to insinuate deceptive--war is terrible! I just think that editors will choose the dead kid photo for the front page lead, and leave the 10+ photos of dead Hamas soldiers for the page B-8 continuation, if they use them at all. Perhaps inocuous was a poor choice of words, though I really think that inocuous assumes both fairness and honesty.

[Tonto]

Gimmie a break! There is no such thing as fair and honest in 98% if any news media....hardly even the attempt here in the US. When I saw "Exodus" on TV I knew that arabs were about to get some butt kicked (I been seeing that connection for 35+ years). When I turned on the news after it started, I knew that Israel was going to be condemned and cursed. When I saw palestinian fake-iods on TV I said....now the outright lies start (muz lie whenever their lips are moving). I knew that there would some huge atrocity the IDF would be blamed for as soon as the 'rabs start hurting too bad...and I wouldn't even be surprised if they actually blew up that school full of people themselves (muz are that dirty and uncaring about the lives of anyone). They certainly, at least, fired at the IDF to precipitate the whole thing....but then, it was a set-up from the very start. If those palestinians that died were muz...they are martyrs. If Christian, who cares...they should have converted. That's how muz think. Anybody that thinks otherwise is an idiot. Any muz that says different is a liar and is accusing me of being stupid, along with the rest of the world.

[bararallu]

Hey I have an idea.. lets drop a billion tons of candy on them from the stratosphere... let them celebrate with terminal velocity.

[ShimonG]

Hey I have an idea.. lets drop a billion tons of candy on them from the stratosphere... let them celebrate with terminal velocity.

:lol:

[KiwiWriter]

Again, I think this is part of the entertainment part of the so-called news. Why interview an intelligent, well-spoken individual, when Jerry Springer types will boost ratings? Similarly, why take innocuous photos? Blood and gore sells subscriptions and wins awards.

Getting off topic a little (but still relevant maybe) I heard an interview with Alice Cooper (hope he's familiar) who talked about discussing "Shock Rock" with Marylin Manson (hope he's familar too). Cooper said he told Manson that shock rock was harder these days because all kids had to do was watch CNN.

I think I have to agree with him there.

[KiwiWriter]

Gimmie a break! There is no such thing as fair and honest in 98% if any news media....hardly even the attempt here in the US. When I saw "Exodus" on TV I knew that arabs were about to get some butt kicked (I been seeing that connection for 35+ years). When I turned on the news after it started, I knew that Israel was going to be condemned and cursed. When I saw palestinian fake-iods on TV I said....now the outright lies start (muz lie whenever their lips are moving). I knew that there would some huge atrocity the IDF would be blamed for as soon as the 'rabs start hurting too bad...and I wouldn't even be surprised if they actually blew up that school full of people themselves (muz are that dirty and uncaring about the lives of anyone). They certainly, at least, fired at the IDF to precipitate the whole thing....but then, it was a set-up from the very start. If those palestinians that died were muz...they are martyrs. If Christian, who cares...they should have converted. That's how muz think. Anybody that thinks otherwise is an idiot. Any muz that says different is a liar and is accusing me of being stupid, along with the rest of the world.

Have to agree. I'm surprised it wasn't another "rocket attack" on an ambulance. Got the story I mentioned about that in another post as well.

[Mosche]

Gimmie a break! There is no such thing as fair and honest in 98% if any news media....hardly even the attempt here in the US. When I saw "Exodus" on TV I knew that arabs were about to get some butt kicked (I been seeing that connection for 35+ years). When I turned on the news after it started, I knew that Israel was going to be condemned and cursed. When I saw palestinian fake-iods on TV I said....now the outright lies start (muz lie whenever their lips are moving). I knew that there would some huge atrocity the IDF would be blamed for as soon as the 'rabs start hurting too bad...and I wouldn't even be surprised if they actually blew up that school full of people themselves (muz are that dirty and uncaring about the lives of anyone). They certainly, at least, fired at the IDF to precipitate the whole thing....but then, it was a set-up from the very start. If those palestinians that died were muz...they are martyrs. If Christian, who cares...they should have converted. That's how muz think. Anybody that thinks otherwise is an idiot. Any muz that says different is a liar and is accusing me of being stupid, along with the rest of the world.

Tonto, you seem really agitated, even though it seems as though you are echoing the same exact sentiments as the prior posts. Could you clarify what was said that you disagree with.

[Mosche]

Getting off topic a little (but still relevant maybe) I heard an interview with Alice Cooper (hope he's familiar) who talked about discussing "Shock Rock" with Marylin Manson (hope he's familar too). Cooper said he told Manson that shock rock was harder these days because all kids had to do was watch CNN.

I think I have to agree with him there.

I'm old enough to remember Alice Cooper--I even remember the episode when he appeared on the Muppets!:confused::eek:

I think this is a great point! Marilyn Manson was at the height of his notoriety just as 24 hour "news" was evolving--just prior to O.J.'s famous car chase. Why watch a white guy dressed in black jackets running around a stage, when you can watch a black guy in a white Blazer running around the city?

[Tonto]

Moshe, I just plain hate the media. For years I have seen the media lie like crazy, slant news and "set up" senarios that point views in their direction....at least in the direction that they want viewers to percieve. The media is not about truth, and hasn't been in a long time, its about pushing an agenda. I hate muz too, with real passion. The affront of them killing almost 3000 people (the japs killed fewer at Pearl Harbor) on 9/11 boils my blood. Their continued arrogance doesn't do anything but fan the fire. Sometimes I just get a bit riled.

[KiwiWriter]

I'm old enough to remember Alice Cooper--I even remember the episode when he appeared on the Muppets!:confused::eek:

I think this is a great point! Marilyn Manson was at the height of his notoriety just as 24 hour "news" was evolving--just prior to O.J.'s famous car chase. Why watch a white guy dressed in black jackets running around a stage, when you can watch a black guy in a white Blazer running around the city?

Or a journalist embedded with a Marine Expeditionary Force? Of course, it can begin to work against the networks. For instance an average teen who has been brought up watching endless news stories of israel hitting lebanon or gaza or where ever is going to start flipping the chanel to My Super Sweet Sixteen or other MTV "reality" show at the first sight of an aircraft with an israeli emblem on it rather than watch in horror like the networks hope they will. (After all, if you've seen one air strike you've seen em all). Perhaps that's why the pictures taken at the protests over here showed mainly people who were in their 40s +?

[Y. Shulamith]

I saw Alice Cooper twice and Black Sabbath twice, BTW.....rock on.....those were the days.....

P.S. Vincent Furnier aka Alica Cooper is an evangelist type guy, living in Arizona....who'd a thought....he plays a lot of golf, too.

[Tonto]

I remember Alice too....he was from Detroit after all. I liked the way he mocked and dumped on the yuppies of then who are the a**h*** liberals of today.

[Y. Shulamith]

I remember Alice too....he was from Detroit after all. I liked the way he mocked and dumped on the yuppies of then who are the a**h*** liberals of today.

I think that you are thinking of Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention....?:scratch:

He was the great inconoclast of the "Great Society"...

[KettleWhistle]

On the topic of civilian casualties, I read today, don't remember where, that they count pretty much any uniformed casualty as civilian. Apparently, according to the international law, off duty terrorists are not considered combatants.

[Tonto]

Evidently they (somebody, I think Pajamas Press) caught CNN in a lie about a kiddie casualty story...they're trying to sort through the denials and "proof" to find out the truth. Think I should tell them the short cut is: "If a muslim's lips are moving, he's probably lying"?

[KiwiWriter]

I saw Alice Cooper twice and Black Sabbath twice, BTW.....rock on.....those were the days.....

P.S. Vincent Furnier aka Alica Cooper is an evangelist type guy, living in Arizona....who'd a thought....he plays a lot of golf, too.

Plays with Glen Campbell :D BTW love your picture, where's it from?

[KiwiWriter]

On the topic of civilian casualties, I read today, don't remember where, that they count pretty much any uniformed casualty as civilian. Apparently, according to the international law, off duty terrorists are not considered combatants.

I was also wondering how many of those figures were subjected to a little "creative accountancy." Saw some footage on BBC while I was on night shift and I started to wonder about how clean some of the casualties looked. Yes often dressings are clean, but if you've been bleeding your clothes usually aren't. Unless Gaza ambulances carry a fresh set of clothes with them, or they're issued with a clean set on arrival

[ItsMyJewty]

Hamas is Killing Its Own People
by Elias Bejjani

This tragedy is orchestrated by Syria and Iran.


The genuine sympathy for, and empathy with, the massive civilian casualties, disastrous human sufferings and extensive material loses sadly taking place in Gaza should not by any means blind the free world and human rights advocacy organizations to the prime causes of the current bloody Israeli-Palestinian confrontation.

What has been going on in Gaza for the last two weeks was instigated by the Axis of Evil countries Syria and Iran, through their terrorist groups Hamas and Hizbullah. Gaza City, the impoverished Palestinian city, has been turned into a theater for a bloody tragedy.

This tragedy is a scheme planned and orchestrated directly by Syria and Iran. The tool in its implementation is fundamentalist Hamas. The Palestinian people in Gaza are mere hostages. They are denied any say in this tragedy. The Axis of Evil countries and organizations are disregarding the security, destiny and livelihood of the people of Gaza.

The entire world knows that Syria and Iran totally control Hamas leadership, finance it directly and train its fighters, as well as supplying it with weapons and equipment. And, according to all standards, the people of Gaza today are hostages in Hamas hands, which trades in their blood mercilessly under the false slogans of "resistance" and "liberation". The Hamas conspiracy against its own people has been overt in all its provocative practices.

In reality, Hamas is mimicking Hizbullah, which back in July 2006 murdered Lebanese civilians and destroyed their infrastructure when it instigated, perpetrated and started its futile and destructive war with Israel, in order to serve the interests, plans and conspiracies of Teheran and Damascus. Then, they claimed the defeat of the Israeli army, calling it a "divine victory".

This is precisely what Hamas has been doing and continues to do. It kept on provoking Israel by firing rockets and missiles on Israeli civilians and refusing to renew a truce with the Jewish State that had been in effect for six months. It gave Israel all the justifications for waging its destructive and devastating on-going war against Gaza. Hamas has so far caused the death and injury of more than 4,000 people and the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian targets in Gaza.

Hamas and Hizbullah's practices and slogans are directly ordered by Teheran and Damascus. They are nothing but military instruments in the hands of Iran and Syria to achieve the expansionist goals of these two countries. It is crystal clear that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and all other moderate Arab countries are also main targets of the Axis of Evil countries and their terrorist tools.

Pro-Iranian and pro-Syrian demonstrators in Beirut revealed this plot when they attempted to sack the Egyptian embassy. At the same time, and within the context of the same evil strategy, Hassan Nasrallah, Hizbullah's General Secretary, openly and boldly called on the Egyptian people to demonstrate by the millions and open the Gaza-Egyptian crossings with their bare hands. Nasrallah and other Hizbullah leaders also called for the Egyptian army officers and soldiers to pressure the Egyptian government into helping Hamas. They lashed out at all Arab states and accused them of conspiracy against the Palestinian people, and of being in bed with the Israelis and the Americans.

The loud Iranian-Syrian anti-Israel rhetoric - theatrical threats to militarily destroy the Jewish state and send its people back to their countries of origin, as Iran's President Ahmadinejad keeps saying - has proved during the last two weeks to be void of any seriousness or actual military capabilities to back up the threats. The obvious questions are: Where are Iran's missiles, navies and bombs? Why have Iran and Syria refrained from coming to the rescue of their tool, Hamas? Where is the Syrian army, which has destroyed Lebanon and massacred our people? Where is Hizbullah's bravery and threats? Why don't they rush to the aid of Hamas?

The answer remains as it was since the establishment of the State of Israel: the threats are mere demagogic, empty speeches motivated by hatred, fundamentalism, lies and a poisonous rejection of the Other. The leaders of Iran and Syria, like many others in the Middle East, have become addicted to insulting the intelligence of their people. They say one thing and do just the opposite. Their claims of illusionary triumphs and divine victories have led their peoples into disasters, poverty, ignorance and fundamentalism.

We may have believed the sincerity and nationalism of those Lebanese politicians who made speeches, issued statements and organized demonstrations in Beirut had they refused to be the stooges and propaganda drums of Iran and Syria. They have instead screamed against Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations, burned Israeli and American flags, and attempted to ransack the Egyptian embassy.

It would have been more productive and honorable for them to be witnesses for the truth and demand that Iran and Syria, along with their terrorist instruments Hamas and Hizbullah, have mercy on the Lebanese and Palestinian people. To release them from bondage. To stop using them as hostages. To halt the murder of their young. To quit using Lebanon and Gaza as theaters of action for the wars of others.

It is sad and distressing that some political and religious leaders in Lebanon and other Middle Eastern countries delivered speeches contrary to their convictions. When they cheered Hamas and blessed its actions, they simply practiced dhimmitude and committed a sinful crime. They surely know the destructive, terrorist and criminal roles of Hamas and Hizbullah, since they call for their disarmament and elimination in private. These leaders must honestly declare their stance, break out of the web of fear and clearly state matters as they are. The only long-lasting solution for the Lebanese-Israeli and Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a peace treaty through direct negotiations, as already signed by Egypt and Jordan.

Lebanon, Gaza and the whole Middle East will not know peace and security until the destructive Iranian-Syrian role is ended, and the terrorist organizations of Hamas and Hizbullah are disarmed and their military teeth extracted.

Source: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8489

[pizza4theidf]

Evidently they (somebody, I think Pajamas Press) caught CNN in a lie about a kiddie casualty story...they're trying to sort through the denials and "proof" to find out the truth. Think I should tell them the short cut is: "If a muslim's lips are moving, he's probably lying"?

I think you should write in and tell them that. Do your bit for the PR war.

[Y. Shulamith]

Plays with Glen Campbell :D BTW love your picture, where's it from?


My avatar is from the Beijing Olympics...

[varian]

Apparently the Hamas cockroaches don't really want to die!!! Hamas leadership is hiding at Shifa Hospital.

'Hamas salaries paid at Shifa Hospital'
Jan. 12, 2009
Amir Mizroch , THE JERUSALEM POST

Hamas is using Gaza's Shifa Hospital as a meeting place and even distributed salaries to its operatives there over the weekend, Public Security Minister and former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Avi Dichter said Monday morning.

Speaking on Army Radio, Dichter noted that "on Saturday, January 10, which is the day salaries are distributed in Gaza, several Hamas commanders who cannot come out of hiding were given their salaries at their hiding places. But those commanders who can move around Gaza made their way to Shifa Hospital to receive their wages."

Regarding Israeli intelligence reports that the Hamas leadership had taken refuge in Gaza's Shifa Hospital, Dichter said that the "Shifa Hospital has long ago ceased to be just a hospital, just as the UNRWA humanitarian and health services in Gaza long ago ceased to be just humanitarian services providing food and medical services."

"UN schools in Gaza long ago stopped being just schools," the minister said. "All these services and places are refuge for Hamas terrorists and commanders."

Asked why Israel was not acting against Shifa Hospital, Dichter answered that an attack on a hospital could not be carried out "for obvious reasons."

"Shifa is in the middle of a very crowded area in Gaza and you would have to get through half-a-million Gazans to get to the hospital and arrest Hamas people there. So that's not doable. Striking the hospital is out of the question for obvious reasons. So in this case we have to just bite our tongues," he said.

The former Shin Bet chief said that is was common knowledge in Gaza that Hamas holds meeting in the hospital. "Shifa Hospital, which is situated in the more wealthy western part of Gaza City, is a very big hospital, but you can hear from the Palestinians who visit there, it is somewhat of an open secret, that Hamas commanders walk around the hospital, in some instances wearing doctors' robes," he said. "In some cases, the Hamas commanders kick medical teams out of rooms so that they can hold meetings."

The Shin Bet told ministers last week that Hamas leaders were hiding in a basement bunker built by Israel under the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City. The basement at the hospital was refurbished during Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip, Haaretz reported on Monday. The United Nations insists that it keeps Hamas members out of the schools, clinics and other institutions it runs in Gaza.

In response to Dichter's comments, a UNRWA spokesman in Israel said on Monday that the UN was getting mixed messages from the Israeli establishment, and that with each "flip flop" the credibility of each Israeli assertion is "diminished incrementally."

Following two attacks against UNRWA employees last week, one in which a Palestinian aid convoy driver was killed by Hamas snipers, UNRWA briefly suspended its humanitarian operations, and restarted them after the Israeli coordinator of government activities in the territories expressed "deep regret" for the targeting of UN workers. "He made it clear he wanted UNRWA's 9,000-10,000 workers to resume their humanitarian efforts," UNRWA's Chris Gunness said.

Regarding Dichter's assertion that UNRWA facilities were shelters for terrorists, Gunness said that where there is a specific complaint about a specific UN installation or employee, that complaint is always investigated.

"Where any abuse of UN installations is discovered, the UN carries out disciplinary action, including dismissals," Gunness said.

UNRWA keeps a list of all of its employees and cross-references them with the UN 1267 terror list, as mandated by the Security Council.

UNSCR 1267 concerns Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and any associated individuals and entities, and it works to freeze their assets. If at any time, someone is on that list, it's incumbent upon all UN members to take action against them. UNRWA also sends lists of all of its employees to the Israeli security establishment, a UN source said. "We have a zero-tolerance policy when we find abuses of our facilities," Gunness said.

Dichter, in the radio interview, went on to say that Israel's goal in the operation in Gaza against Hamas was to stop the smuggling of arms into Gaza.

"This means getting Egypt to do what it should have been doing for the past eight years, and didn't do," he said.

"We are now two weeks into massive firing of weapons into Israel that were "not made inside the Gaza Strip, but were smuggled into there. We're talking about Grad rockets, regardless of whether they were manufactured in China or Iran."

Dichter was optimistic that this goal would be achieved, saying that he thought "the Egyptians will not be able to evade responsibility. I believe that American and European pressure will get the Egyptians to do what they have to do."

"I have no doubt that if the tables were turned, and a huge amount of weaponry originating in Israel was being smuggled into Egypt from Gaza, Egypt would not be sitting quietly."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424936164&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Emphasis by poster. v

[Y. Shulamith]

Why am I not shocked? Stupid arab psychopathic and sociopathic behavior..Pfffttt...

[Mediocrates]

http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=836556

Whatever one's views about Israel and its campaign against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, it is imperative to look closely at its enemy. Those who care deeply about the fate of the Palestinian people should spend some time examining Hamas. The aims of the Islamic group that has held power in Gaza for 18 months stand in direct opposition to the goals of Palestinians who want peace, freedom and a better future.Hamas opposes the two-state solution, and it has proved to be a brutal enemy against any Palestinians who disagree with its views. Hamas has all but banished its Palestinian rival, Fatah, from Gaza. It does not tolerate different views. Freedom of thought, expression and religion, are on their way out in Gaza.

The Hamas charter

The Hamas charter, in Article 8, provides a framework. "Allah is its target, the Prophet (Muhammad) is its model, the Koran is its constitution, jihad is its path, and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes." Last month, a report in an Arab newspaper detailed a vote by the Hamas parliament to introduce Sharia, Islamic law. The report said Hamas wants to bring back amputations, hangings, lashings and even crucifixion. The death penalty would be reserved for serious crimes, such as "negotiat(ing) with a foreign government - against Palestinians' interest."

Anyone under the impression that Hamas secretly wishes to negotiate peace with Israel has fallen victim to wishful thinking. Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and wants to replace "every inch" of it with an Islamic nation, as part of fundamentalists' goal of creating one large supranational caliphate. In fact, Hamas does not like the idea of a nation-state.

Answering to Iran

Like Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas answers to Iran, which would like to sow as much discord as possible in the region. Negotiating peace with Israel goes against the deepest wishes of Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah. The three, along with Syria, formed the Jabat al-Mumana'a, the Front of Obstruction, which seeks to remove Western influence (including Israel's existence) in the Middle East. It's not surprising that on Wednesday, the speaker of the Iranian parliament went to Damascus to discuss strategy with Hamas' supreme leader, Khaled Meshal. Ali Larijani held meetings with several terrorist groups. The next day, perhaps by coincidence, someone fired rockets into Israel from Lebanon. It's worth wondering whose interests Hamas is pursuing.

True, Hamas leaders have talked about a long-term Hudna, a truce with Israel. But they have also spelled out its purpose. A top Hamas leader, Nizar Rayyan, told an Atlantic Monthly correspondent that, "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God." Given that, "The only reason to have a Hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle (with Israel.)"
Last week, Rayyan, a fierce advocate of suicide bombings - who sent his own son on a suicide mission - was killed by Israel along with two of his four wives. Rayyan's death was quietly celebrated by Palestinians in the West Bank. The Hamas leader had threatened the Palestinian Authority, vowing to overthrow the PA there, as it did in Gaza in 2007.
The group, by the way, is viciously anti-Semitic. The charter is filled with rants calling for the murder of Jews - not just Israelis. Rayyan himself explained that the Jews are the "sons of pigs and apes." Critics of Israel may not find Hamas' views on Israel or Jews particularly troubling. But they might want to consider the type of society they would build. One can get a good idea looking at the cult of death, violence and intolerance Hamas has promoted, or watching the hate-filled programs Hamas television produces for children.

Hamas, labeled a terrorist organization by the United States, Europe and Japan, came to power by winning hearts and minds with its tough anti-Israel stance and its widespread social welfare network. Once in power it has kept its warm side hidden. When the war with Israel started in late December, Hamas operatives rounded up members of the rival Fatah, killing dozens of them on claims they might help Israel. Hamas would not create the kind of state most Palestinians want.
Even critics and opponents of Israel should be able to see that the answer to the Palestinians' plight does not lie with Hamas.

[Steve369]

Yeah.

....and we won't find this kind of news on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, or the New York Times. For some reason we have to dig in order to find it.

http://www.sanddust.com/writingsingle.html

[Rubén]

I'm wondering one thing;
Do we have moral justification to bomb anyone if we feel ourselves threatened?

[bararallu]

I'm wondering one thing;
Do we have moral justification to bomb anyone if we feel ourselves threatened?

You mean like the republicans did against the fascists in the Spanish Civil war? Or the British when the V2s started falling on London? Or the Americans after Perl Harbor? Does the concept quid pro quo make sense in Espanol?

Also without one unified religion, there isn't any "morality" possible. You don't belong to my moral universe and neither of us belongs to the Muslim Arabs'. We can have mutually recognized and secularized ethics, and those must be founded on reciprocity. Meaning there are human conventions without any theological universals. When Hamas (and most of Araby) treats the Geneva convention like used toilet paper, why should we continue to subscribe to it in the long run? When the Germans started executing Soviet captured soldiers in WW2, what pray tell did the Soviets do?

[Tonto]

I'm wondering one thing;
Do we have moral justification to bomb anyone if we feel ourselves threatened?

No! Hell no!:rock: Just let them blow hell out of your dumb ass and chalk it up to another Darwin Award.:stick::rofl::rofl:

[Tonto]

No! Hell no!:rock: Just let them blow hell out of your dumb ass and chalk it up to another Darwin Award.:stick::rofl::rofl:

Just WHAT are you thinking??????:lol:

[dayag]

I'm wondering one thing;
Do we have moral justification to bomb anyone if we feel ourselves threatened?

Do we have moral justification to try to destroy an enemy's means of attacking us when they have launched over 10,000 rockets into our country?! Hell, YES!

Have you posted on any Islamic forums since 2001 that Hamas doesn't have the moral right to launch missles at civilians in Israel? Or do you think that was morally justifiable?

[CanDo]

No! Hell no!:rock: Just let them blow hell out of your dumb ass and chalk it up to another Darwin Award.:stick::rofl::rofl:

Well put! :clap:

You put it simple enough that even someone from Barcelona might be able to understand.

[Mediocrates]

In the history of wars since we started collecting data, civilian casualties have exceeded military casualties. That Israel is singled out means either her critics don't understand history or reality or they have a specific anti Israeli agenda.

[Tonto]

In the history of wars since we started collecting data, civilian casualties have exceeded military casualties. That Israel is singled out means either her critics don't understand history or reality or they have a specific anti Israeli agenda.

Write it down and I'll sign it. :rock: Absolutely agree with you. I think that the facts speak for themselves. If hamas brings a knife to a gunfight, they should expect to get shot to hell. Anyone that doesn't see the justice in what Israel is doing in Gaza is either anti-Israel or dumber than a box of rocks.

[dayag]

...If hamas brings a knife to a gunfight, they should expect to get shot to hell...

Well said.
:clap:

[Rubén]

Why all of you suppose that i'm against the israelian cause? Is my question too hard to answer, without sentences as anti-israelian, or whatever?
I think that my question was not offesive, that was not my idea. I know that i'm in Barcelona, and i'm not living in Israel, and maybe ( not maybe, i'm sure ) that i have not the israelian point of view. I just pretended to understand what do you think about innocent people who is dying. I'm not talking about Hamas supporters. I'm talking about the innocent people, you know. I read the spaninsh forums and i have found a lot of oppinions about the attack over Gaza. But i want to know what the israelian comunity think about, because i, as a human being, want to know many different points of view about this theme. I'm agree that Hamas is a cancer, not only for Israel even for Palestine.
But when i see on Tv news, images about a school child bus blowed up in Tel Aviv, or a 3, 6, 8 year old child mutilated in Gaza, i feel the same hole in my stomach.
In my country we have terrorist too, muslims and Vasque independentist, so please don't try to teach me what terrorism is.
BARARALLU, yes, in spanish exist the sentence quid pro quo.
So, now that you know my motivation. I send my question again. And please, try to answer with yes or don't, and an explanation if you want.

Do we have moral justification to bomb anyone if we feel ourselves threatened?

[bararallu]

BARARALLU, yes, in spanish exist the sentence quid pro quo.
So, now that you know my motivation. I send my question again. And please, try to answer with yes or don't, and an explanation if you want.

Do we have moral justification to bomb anyone if we feel ourselves threatened?

Rubén,

My apologies if I sound rude, the internet is not especially given to emotionally charged discussions. Emotionally in the sense that some of us have relatives or are ourselves affected by this conflict. Affected like death by violence and pieces of body missing.

BTW, it's written Israeli in English (as transliterated from Hebrew) not Israelien etc...

This is not really a moral question, since I've already mentioned that morality per se, doesn't work without a shared religion. If it's just human decency or ethics, that too becomes problematic since all ethics (not to mention the Geneva convention) is based on quid pro quo, aka reciprocity. So an argument for the Palestinians, in my opinion cannot be made from either Morality or Ethics... what we come to is practicality.

in that sense, to directly answer your question, I will need to make a parallel:

Are you personally compelled to block an attacker that is about to make his fist contact with your face at high velocity? Assuming someone just attacked you?

Would you furthermore then try to stop him from hitting you again by, unfortunately be put in the position of, hitting him yourself? If it makes things easier for you to understand this issue pretend that you= say your sister or mother or someone you love and care for.

See in these examples, morality and ethics do not play a part, it is pragmatic however to defend yourself... possibly to the extent that stops your assailant from continuing to pummel you, possibly to death.

The issue is not about bombing, it's about living without bombs. We dont cause warfare in the Middle East, our neighbors do. They continually attempt to kill and deliberately target civilians. In our shoes a country like Russia or Egypt would slaughter every "Palestinian" to the man under similar circumstances. We however are not genocidal, so we do not.

To put all of this in context. You are watching an incredibly pro-Palestinian skewed television in Europe. The same was done for the fake genocide in Jennin, and the fake Israeli killing of Mohamed Dura (that France 2 television still hasn't apologized for). Keeping this in mind, I appreciate you coming here to see our position clarified.

[Mil]

Posted by Ruben:

Why all of you suppose that i'm against the israelian cause? Is my question too hard to answer, without sentences as anti-israelian, or whatever?
I think that my question was not offesive, that was not my idea. I know that i'm in Barcelona, and i'm not living in Israel, and maybe ( not maybe, i'm sure ) that i have not the israelian point of view. I just pretended to understand what do you think about innocent people who is dying. I'm not talking about Hamas supporters. I'm talking about the innocent people, you know. I read the spaninsh forums and i have found a lot of oppinions about the attack over Gaza. But i want to know what the israelian comunity think about, because i, as a human being, want to know many different points of view about this theme. I'm agree that Hamas is a cancer, not only for Israel even for Palestine.
But when i see on Tv news, images about a school child bus blowed up in Tel Aviv, or a 3, 6, 8 year old child mutilated in Gaza, i feel the same hole in my stomach.
In my country we have terrorist too, muslims and Vasque independentist, so please don't try to teach me what terrorism is.
BARARALLU, yes, in spanish exist the sentence quid pro quo.
So, now that you know my motivation. I send my question again. And please, try to answer with yes or don't, and an explanation if you want.


Dude - it's a war. Israel and the Arabs have been in war for the past 60 years. This is one of those wars. This is how it's been for most of the history of the region.

[kozzol]

Ruben wrote

But when i see on Tv news, images about a school child bus blowed up in Tel Aviv, or a 3, 6, 8 year old child mutilated in Gaza, i feel the same hole in my stomach.

I think you will find many of us feel the same, but when you have lived on a daily basis of fear you tend to build a wall within, because everyday it could be you or a family member or a friend, this is the way of life when you live in a small country surrounded by enemies who have one thought in their minds, the genocide of your race by any means possible.

I always feel sickened when I see people and the media demonize Israeli's and the Jewish people, yet support the continious onslaught of Israeli's and Jewish people.

No wonder that wall has been built, it is to protect our sanity as much as our desire to live.

[CanDo]

Why all of you suppose that i'm against the israelian cause?

Because Jews are constantly having to deal with the same old tripe, coming from those who are too lazy or too stupid to do a little research into the history of Arab/Muslim persecution of Christians, Jews and other minorities in the Middle East.

You don't ask or research why Arabs/Muslims have driven most Christians and Jews either out of their countries or out of the Middle East.

You don't ask or research why Arabs/Muslims have waged war against the Jews of Israel, in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973, slaughtering Jewish men, women and children, and attempting to murder all of the Jews of Israel, and have waged a terrorist war against the Jews of Israel for over 60 years.

You don't ask or research why the Jews of Israel suffer from constant daily threats and attacks by Arabs/Muslims.

You don't ask or research why there are 600 basically EMPTY Christian Churches in Jerusalem because there are relatively few remaining Christians.

You don't ask or research why the Judeo-Christian towns and villages, in the West Bank, like Jericho, Bethlehem, Nazareth are now Muslim land.

You don't ask or research why Hamas uses civilians as shields and deliberately sets civilians up for massacre just so they can blame it on Israel and benefit from the propaganda.

Is my question too hard to answer,

For you, maybe.

If you really are honest and looking for answers, and not lazy, you can get more than you'll ever need at the Jewish Virtual Library at:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/

You could also read: The Christian Exodus from the Middle East at:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme.html

[yonatan]

IDF officials are starting to back-up their claims (which some of us have heard throughout the ongoing battle) that Arab civilian casualties amount to less than 25% of the total. The IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA) has compiled a list of 900 Arabs that they can confirm were killed during the fighting. Of that list, fewer than 25% were civilian:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950849614&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Considering how densely populated Gaza is, and the attempts by Hamas to use human shields in their propaganda war with Israel, it has been remarkable from day one that the civilian deaths have not soared much higher. Two things come to my mind out of the above news story:

First, is that the Western media always cites the "official" and presumably unbiased fatality count circulated by the UN. As the Jerusalem Post article makes clear, however, the UN is merely regurgitating the numbers provided by the Palestinian Ministry of Health (for whom a 16-year old with a rocket launcher is a "child").


The second thing that strikes me is that, although I've seen this same pattern of media bias before (as in the 1982 and 2006 Lebanon Wars), this is the first time that I have seen the Israeli government take such a proactive stance in countering the bias of UN (and Western media) reporting. In the past, details such as the list of names described above, wouldn't come out until after the fighting was long over - and the media had already moved on to another story.

The Israeli government is slowly learning that they have to engage in the media war head-on, if they want the freedom of maneuver necessary to defend Israeli homes.

[kozzol]

Some thing which comes to mind is that vituallly everyone is saying that the casualties Israel has caused, giving the impression that they have been caused by the bombings or through the ground offensive.

Nobody has given it any thought that alot of these casualties may be the result of Hamas relentless attempts to blow up the IDF or cross fire when engaged with the IDF.

How many of the casualties are actually caused from the above? Of course it suits everyones purpose to lay the blame soley on the IDF and IAF.

[KiwiWriter]

In the history of wars since we started collecting data, civilian casualties have exceeded military casualties. That Israel is singled out means either her critics don't understand history or reality or they have a specific anti Israeli agenda.

I'll go with the agenda thing. Although the same critics have been using the same Civilian casualities arguments against the US operation in Iraq.

[Mediocrates]

Moreover according to what iron law are women and teenagers not soldiers? Go anywhere in the world outside of the EU and north America and 12 year olds lug AK's around. In Sri Lanka half of the suicide bombers where women; they killed 15,000 people.

[Reffo]

I love the way that the apologists for Hamas contradict themselves. I heard an interview today with Uri Avneri in which he was explaining why Israel will never defeat Hamas, he said:
From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not “hide behind the population”, the population views them as their only defenders.And in the next breath, the very same people admonish Israel for "the collective punishment" of innocent Palestinians.

Under the circumstances, one has to wonder why these F...wits don't want to understand that civilian casualties are inevitable in such a war where civilians ARE being deliberately used as human shields by Hamas. Any normal rational human being understands that war is chaotic and mistakes ARE being made, not just against civilians but friendly fire incidents as well in which Israel's own soldiers have been accidentally hit and killed by their own tank fire!

One also has to wonder why these F...wits never cry about the collective punishment of Israeli civilians by Hamas and they only find their collective shrill, self righteous sanctimonious voices when Israel responds to years of atrocities against Southern Israeli civilians?

[Mediocrates]

Again: these people do not support antisemites in spite of what they do and say but BECAUSE of it.