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View Full Version : War is terrible, but the alternative in Gaza was worse


ygalg1
01-15-2009, 08:23 AM
Daily Mail, 5 January 2008 Melanie Phillips

War is always terrible and to be avoided if humanly possible. War in Gaza, where Hamas terrorists are embedded within densely crowded areas, is particularly awful. No one wants to see civilians being killed. Every decent person will be dismayed that it has come to this.

What is profoundly troubling, however, is that as the Israeli ground offensive escalates hostilities still further, so many in Britain don’t understand that, appalling as this war is, the alternative is even worse.

This is a war that Israel spent more than seven years trying to avoid, while no fewer than 6,000 rockets and other missiles rained down from Gaza upon its southern towns. No other country in the world would have sat on its hands while its traumatised children were raised in bomb shelters.

The often-made comparison with IRA terrorism spectacularly misses the point. Hamas actually run Gaza. The equivalent would have been the Irish government firing 6,000 rockets at England.

Does anyone seriously doubt that, in such a hypothetical situation, Britain would have been at war with Ireland long before that total had been reached?

Far from acting out of political opportunism, as some so offensively suggest, Israel has taken massive risks on every front with this operation. A ground war almost certainly means many of its soldiers will die. If just one of its shells were to go astray and hit a school or hospital, a hostile western world would unleash the furies against it.

And in Lebanon, Hezbollah may launch its ferocious arsenal of rockets pointing at northern Israel, forcing it to fight on two fronts. But the brutal fact is that tiny, besieged Israel is damned if it does and dead if it doesn’t.

While Arab countries such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia as well as Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas blame Hamas for provoking this war, it is Israel which is drawing western protests.

These are not confined to the thuggish demonstrations organised by an alliance of Islamists and the far-Left we have seen on the streets of London at the weekend. Many others also share the view that Israel is in the wrong. So why is a country under attack from genocidal fanatics pilloried for defending its citizens against slaughter?

The main complaint is that Israel’s response is ‘disproportionate’, since some 500 Palestinians have been killed compared with ‘only’ four Israelis since the war started nine days ago.

This is absurd. In World War II, 20 times more civilians were killed in Germany than in Britain. Did that make the war against the Nazis ‘disproportionate’? Of course not.

Then there’s the belief that the Hamas rockets are some kind of homemade, harmless Dad’s Army effort which could and should be ignored.

But the only reason more Israelis haven’t been killed by them is that in the south, the population has been all but living in bomb shelters. And there is nothing ‘homemade’ about the Russian-designed Katyushas and Iranian Grad rockets now putting around one-tenth of Israel’s population within their range.

Contrary to Arab propaganda, the Israelis are taking enormous pains to avoid civilian casualties in their attempt to curb these rocket attacks. The UN has confirmed that the vast majority (75 per cent) of the dead in Gaza have been Hamas terrorists. Given the huge number of bombing sorties that have been conducted, this proves that the Israelis are specifically targeting the Hamas infrastructure.

Alas, the civilian death toll will unavoidably mount, which is deeply regrettable. But what must be understood is that Hamas have deliberately situated their weapons under apartment blocks, in mosques and in hospitals.

The Israelis build bomb shelters for their civilians; Hamas store bombs underneath their civilians in order to create as many civilian casualties as possible to manipulate world opinion.

What people find so hard to grasp is that Hamas actually want to maximise the number of Palestinians who are killed because, as they boast: ‘We desire death as you desire life.’

Despite this fanaticism, many fear that Israel’s attack will merely create yet more suicide bombers. There is a grain of sense in this — but only a grain.

This is because every single act of self-defence against Islamist aggression is used as a recruiting sergeant for the Islamic holy war. So if this is allowed to dictate world responses, it follows that no one can ever defend themselves against Islamist rockets and bomb attacks — not just in Israel but in Afghanistan or against Al Qaeda anywhere.

Islamists such as Hamas are galvanised into battle by the perceived weakness of their victims, and are deterred only by implacable strength. That’s why the ferocity of suicide bomb attacks actually rises after peace initiatives. Gaza’s rocket barrage against Israel went up by 500 per cent after Israel ended its occupation.

And the 2000 Intifada which killed thousands of Israelis was the Palestinians’ response to being offered more than 90 per cent of the West Bank and Gaza for a state of their own.

What is so distressing is the desperate unfairness of so much Western reaction. Thus Israel is accused of causing a humanitarian disaster in Gaza, even though it is allowing hundreds of trucks of supplies through the crossing points — so that at one stage aid agencies in Gaza said their storehouses were full.

Few are aware that wounded Gazans — 65 per cent of whom voted for Hamas — are continuing to be treated in Israeli hospitals. Nor are they aware that in a Gaza hospital, by contrast, Hamas shot dead five suspected Palestinian ‘collaborators’ — and murdered a further 30 elsewhere.

The reason for this grotesquely unfair reaction is that so many in Britain now believe as fact the Arab lies about the Middle East impasse. Many think, for example, that the Palestinians are the rightful inheritors not just of Gaza and the West Bank but Israel itself.

But this is totally false. The Jews are the only people for whom ‘Palestine’ was ever their nation state, hundreds of years before Mohammed was even born.

It was in recognition of that inalienable right that in the 1920s the British undertook the legally binding international obligation — never rescinded — to settle Jews in every part of Mandatory Palestine.

That included not just modern Israel but the West Bank and Gaza, too. Despite this, Israel is willing for the Palestinians to have their own state — as was first offered to them in 1937 — but not if its only purpose is to be a launching pad for the final destruction of its Israeli neighbour.

No other country on the planet has ever been expected to make suicidal concessions to its enemies even while they continue to try to destroy it. Yet that is what the world expects of Israel.

Now the British Government, among others, has called for an immediate ceasefire. But this would effectively mean victory for Hamas. Gordon Brown wouldn’t dream of calling for a ceasefire with al Qaeda. So why the double standard where Israel is concerned?

Most important of all, this war is not actually about Israel and the Palestinians. Hamas is controlled by Iran. Unless Hamas is stopped, Iran’s growing influence in the region will be entrenched and put Britain and the West in even greater danger from Islamist aggression and blackmail.

Israel may or may not eventually manage to stop the Hamas rockets. But the Middle East conflict will not end until and unless the West comes to realise that Israel is in the frontline of the West’s own fight for survival, and starts properly defending the country struggling to defend civilisation instead of siding with those waging holy war against it.
link (http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=636)

andak01
01-15-2009, 08:40 AM
This is absurd. In World War II, 20 times more civilians were killed in Germany than in Britain. Did that make the war against the Nazis ‘disproportionate’? Of course not.

Germany was fighting a war on three fronts on the ground and in the air. They were attacked by the British and the Russians and the Americans in waves. There was no ground invasion of Britain or America. I'm curious. Did the Russians, who were invaded on the ground and did fight over land ALSO experience 20 times fewer civilian casualties? Um. No.

Second question, how many munitions have been dumped in populated sections of Gaza versus those 6000 rockets over 8 years? 6000 rockets was less than a week during the Lebanon war.

Israel has been taking reasonable steps in the past which did not earn it the scorn of the world. I don't recall any cardinal at the Vatican comparing Gaza to a concentration camp prior to this most recent conflict. I have witnessed new boycotts and massive demonstrations around the world including among the demonstrators Jews and even Israelis. This is new and different and a sad event for Israel.

bararallu
01-15-2009, 09:11 AM
Germany was fighting a war on three fronts on the ground and in the air. They were attacked by the British and the Russians and the Americans in waves. There was no ground invasion of Britain or America.

Small correction: While the British Isles and the Continental US weren't invaded, both the US and the UK had nationalized territories invaded and taken over by Axis powers.

Mil
01-15-2009, 09:14 AM
By Andak01:

Germany was fighting a war on three fronts on the ground and in the air. They were attacked by the British and the Russians and the Americans in waves.

? Germany was mostly bombed by RAF and USAF. Soviet bombing raids on Germany were very small. In fact compared to what the Germans did in Poland, USSR, Chekoslovakia, Yugoslavia the German people basically got away with murder..... as did Finns, Romanians, Hungarians, Croats, and Bosnia Muslism and other Nazi allies.

There was no ground invasion of Britain or America. I'm curious. Did the Russians, who were invaded on the ground and did fight over land ALSO experience 20 times fewer civilian casualties? Um. No.

Soviet casualties in that war were 27,000,000 million of which only 18,000,000 were civilians. Many of those civilians, including over 2,000,000 Joos, were simply exterminated for belonging to a certain ethnic group. We are talking about MILLIONS!!!!!


Second question, how many munitions have been dumped in populated sections of Gaza versus those 6000 rockets over 8 years? 6000 rockets was less than a week during the Lebanon war.

Google it.

Israel has been taking reasonable steps in the past which did not earn it the scorn of the world. I don't recall any cardinal at the Vatican comparing Gaza to a concentration camp prior to this most recent conflict. I have witnessed new boycotts and massive demonstrations around the world including among the demonstrators Jews and even Israelis. This is new and different and a sad event for Israel.

And for Moroccans who have cleansed their Jewish population. What did your mosque do exactly?

bararallu
01-15-2009, 09:25 AM
Israel has been taking reasonable steps in the past which did not earn it the scorn of the world. I don't recall any cardinal at the Vatican comparing Gaza to a concentration camp prior to this most recent conflict. I have witnessed new boycotts and massive demonstrations around the world including among the demonstrators Jews and even Israelis. This is new and different and a sad event for Israel.

You're really going into hot water with this argument. FYI: The Vatican has never chastised any Arab state, in any way comparable to anything it says about Jews and Israel. BTW, this is the same Vatican that recently rescinded (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28642137/) an important part of Vatican II, the cornerstone of positive Jewish-Catholic relations. Ditto for the Europeans and the Western Press.

Show me the level of condemnation that resulted in:

Syria killing 25k Sunnis in Hama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre).
Jordan killing 20k Palestinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan).
Lebanese Shia Amal (and Syria) killing thousands of Palestinians (http://lebop.blogspot.com/2005/12/investigating-assassinations-hezbollah.html).
Kuwait ethically cleansing 400,000 Palestinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Expulsion_from_Kuwait). They also killed a fair number too I bet in the process.
Egypt killing 40,000 Yemenis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yemen_Civil_War).
Lebanon kills hundreds of Palestinians (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1816643.ece).

Please show us where the Vatican comparably condemned these actions.
Please show us where Western Media editorialized all these actions and condemned them on the same scale.
Please show us the proportionate (:)) UN resolutions.
Please show us the marches in all the Muslim capitals.
Please show us the Left standing up for dead Palestinians babys in Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, and Syria.
Show us where the world cares... about the Arab cannon fodder (=Palestine) when the Jews are not involved.
This is is pure hypocrisy in our opinion and there are no answers that my research shows that even approaches giving proportional response from Israel haters international to the travesties and bloodshed in the ME perpetrated by Arabs against Arabs.

Note I did not even bring up the killing fields of Sudan and Iraq and Algeria. Much less proportional outrage, from those hypocrites, of Jewish targeted civilians, yes those thousands of dead civilians at the hands of Hamas and the PLO et al. Where were was the proportional outrage there?

Please Andak don't preach to us peace and pie in the sky while the sound of the hypocrites is deafening. Neither they nor you have a leg to stand on concerning this.

Mil
01-15-2009, 09:30 AM
I don't think our friend really would go protest of what was done to the Joos of Morocco. He is "left-wing" as it concerns some topics like lets hate Bush (as if it's a left thing or right thing) but gay marriage is a no-no.

It's called everyone protects their own. Screw the Arabs!!!!

andak01
01-15-2009, 09:46 AM
You're really going into hot water with this argument. FYI: The Vatican has never chastised any Arab state, in any way comparable to anything it says about Jews and Israel. BTW, this is the same Vatican that recently rescinded (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28642137/) an important part of Vatican II, the cornerstone of positive Jewish-Catholic relations. Ditto for the Europeans and the Western Press.

Show me the level of condemnation that resulted in:

Syria killing 25k Sunnis in Hama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre).

Here's a good example of what I've been saying. Find me one single post where I condemned Israel for bombing what they believed was a Syrian nuclear facility. I had nothing to say about it then or now. And I've said a couple of times, if Israel wants to bomb Iran, let them. I'm not going to pay for the bombs, but they have the right.

This is is pure hypocrisy in our opinion and there are no answers that my research shows that even approaches giving proportional response from Israel haters international to the travesties and bloodshed in the ME perpetrated by Arabs against Arabs.

I wouldn't know. I'm not an Israel hater. If I was an Israel hater, I'd advise you to rachet up the civilian casualties even further and continue in a unilateral quest regardless of world opinion. I think that direction will be much more detrimental to Israel in the long run than any gains they believe they are making against Hamas. After all, the aim of the Lebanon war was to do away with Hizbollah and they are still shooting at Israel.

The alternative is NOT doing nothing. Israel has already taken effective measures to reduce its own casualties. Otherwise 6000 missiles would have hit 6000 or more Israelis. Also, nobody is suggesting that Israel not take retaliatory action.

Note I did not even bring up the killing fields of Sudan and Iraq and Algeria. Much less proportional outrage, from those hypocrites, of Jewish targeted civilians, yes those thousands of dead civilians at the hands of Hamas and the PLO et al. Where were was the proportional outrage there?

I'm very aware of those killing fields since I watch the news and see condemnation of them on a daily basis.

Please Andak don't preach to us peace and pie in the sky while the sound of the hypocrites is deafening. Neither they nor you have a leg to stand on concerning this.

We're at least agreed that the sound of hypocrites is deafening even if we can't agree on who they are. :)

andak01
01-15-2009, 09:58 AM
I don't think our friend really would go protest of what was done to the Joos of Morocco.

I'd prefer to dine with some of them in their appartments on Rue des Rosiers.

bararallu
01-15-2009, 10:05 AM
Here's a good example of what I've been saying. Find me one single post where I condemned Israel for bombing what they believed was a Syrian nuclear facility.

And this is a clear example of Israel taking quick and careful steps like it always does. The current action likewise.

I wouldn't know. I'm not an Israel hater.

Not saying that you are but you are leveraging a good deal of anti-Israeli sentiment present in western Leftist publications, the European Left and Far Right rhetoric and historical animosity to all things Jewish, and esp all things Jewish self determination.


If I was an Israel hater, I'd advise you to rachet up the civilian casualties even further and continue in a unilateral quest regardless of world opinion.

That was neither my point nor, I believe, a goal of the current Israeli action.

I think that direction will be much more detrimental to Israel in the long run than any gains they believe they are making against Hamas.

Sorry but we dont care, 94% of Jewish Israelis and 15% of Israeli "Arabs" (= 90% of Druze, Christians, Turkic citizens and many Bedouin) agree with the fact that we have far more important short run issues, like rockets falling on our heads.

After all, the aim of the Lebanon war was to do away with Hizbollah and they are still shooting at Israel.

No that was never the Goal, even though the Sunnis and Christians in Lebanon wished it to be.

The alternative is NOT doing nothing. Israel has already taken effective measures to reduce its own casualties. Otherwise 6000 missiles would have hit 6000 or more Israelis.

Are you an Israeli? Are you an IDF person? An Elected representative of Israel? How do you measure Effective. It's effective when the job is done. Note the Egyptians are not so keen on saying that it's been effective, yet.

Also, nobody is suggesting that Israel not take retaliatory action.

It's not retaliatory, it's precautionary and proactive action taken to stop worse attacks in the near future (with Egyptian tunnels supplying heavy ordinance that is being stockpiled via the agency of Iran.

I'm very aware of those killing fields since I watch the news and see condemnation of them on a daily basis.

Of those events that happened? Please show us proportionality of those events and what is happening around the current action.

We're at least agreed that the sound of hypocrites is deafening even if we can't agree on who they are. :)

Do you want a list? This forum overflows with a condemnation of them.

CanDo
01-15-2009, 10:20 AM
... Second question, how many munitions have been dumped in populated sections of Gaza versus those 6000 rockets over 8 years? 6000 rockets was less than a week during the Lebanon war.

Hell, if you attack my family with ONE rocket, I would flatten you. I wouldn't wait for 6000 rockets, are you nuts?!

Obviously you don't have the same ethics and morals about protecting your loved ones or neighbors as nonMuslims do.

I don't recall any cardinal at the Vatican comparing Gaza to a concentration camp prior to this most recent conflict.

Anyone with a modicum of sense would blame the Gaza concentration camp on Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Palestinians, who could have had peace with peace-loving Israel a long time ago! All the Palestinians had to do at any time over the past 60 years, is stretch out their hands in peace and they would have had it.

Hell...... prior to the second Intifada, the Palestinians in Gaza had a higher standard of living than most Arabs throughout the Middle East. But, peace and prosperity wasn't good enough for the hateful, violent Palestinian Arabs. Their racism and religious intolerance trumped their sense of humanity and they attacked Israel.

The Palestinian Arabs deserve to live in a concentration camp. They made their bed and they should lie in it!

ItsMyJewty
01-15-2009, 10:29 AM
andak: I don't recall any cardinal at the Vatican comparing Gaza to a concentration camp prior to this most recent conflict.

Yes, people are being gassed and turned into soap every day.:rolleyes: Say whatever you want to without thinking. Pathetic!

andak01
01-15-2009, 10:41 AM
Hell, if you attack my family with ONE rocket, I would flatten you. I wouldn't wait for 6000 rockets, are you nuts?!

Obviously you don't have the same ethics and morals about protecting your loved ones or neighbors as nonMuslims do.

I haven't attacked you with one rocket, nor do I advocate attacking you with ANY rockets and I unconditionally condemn those who do.

The Palestinian Arabs deserve to live in a concentration camp. They made their bed and they should lie in it!

I didn't say it was a concentration camp and I'm sorry that the cardinal did. Are you saying that?

CanDo
01-15-2009, 10:41 AM
I'm not an Israel hater.

You have got to be kidding. You really think that anyone is going to believe that?!

What you are, also, is sanctimonious and self-centered, and send a strong message that you feel that Jewish families shouldn't do whatever it takes to protect their families from Palestinian rockets.

CanDo
01-15-2009, 10:51 AM
I haven't attacked you with one rocket, nor do I advocate attacking you with ANY rockets and I unconditionally condemn those who do.

When I said: "Hell, if you attack my family with ONE rocket, I would flatten you. I wouldn't wait for 6000 rockets, are you nuts?!", I was referring to what the Palestinians have done to the Jews of Israel. I was saying (making it simple so even andak can understand it) that Israel should have bombed back after ONE rocket. Why Israel waited for 6000 rockets to hit, I don't know. If you, or anyone, would attack someone else's family, don't be surprised if that family strikes back.

I also said to you: "Obviously you don't have the same ethics and morals about protecting your loved ones or neighbors as nonMuslims do.", because you feel that 6000 rockets crashing into civilian homes is no big deal. It takes low morals and ethics to feel that way.

I didn't say it was a concentration camp and I'm sorry that the cardinal did. Are you saying that?

You can call that miserable hole, Gaza, anything that you like. Regardless of what you call it, or I call it, the responsibility for Gaza's miserable conditions lies with the Palestinian-Arabs, who could have had it so much better if they had, just once, over the past 60 years, stretched out their hands in peace.

CanDo
01-15-2009, 11:22 AM
...

I just edited my last two posts to you, and erased most of my personal attacks against you. They were inappropriate. I went over the top, realized it. I apologize.

Most of the world is antiSemitic and opposed to Israel. When you deny Israelis the ability to fight back, in any method or means that Jews feel is appropriate, to protect their families and their neighbors, then you are just piling on with the rest of the AntiSemites of this world.

I got caught up with my emotions, over-reacted (even for me), and regretted it. Hence I edited my posts.