Christian Evangelicals?

[Yala]

Why haven't they marched to show their support for Israel? There are over 75 million + who are pro-Israel in this country alone. They usually reside in the south. Where have they been?

[ShimonG]

Why haven't they marched to show their support for Israel? There are over 75 million + who are pro-Israel in this country alone. They usually reside in the south. Where have they been?

Probably filing for unemployment benefits!

On the plus side, i was in traffic going under an overpass. there were freakin palis on the overpass with the usual signs hating israel. "Honk if you support gaza for peace" "down with israel genocide" etc.

Not one motorist honked. NOT A FREAKING ONE. That overpass sees probably a few hundred thousand cars a day. I have traveled through that point at virtually all times in the day. And never heard a single freakin honk.

So much for islam and its taqqiya.

[friendofisrael]

Yala that's a good point and that same issue is really annoying me at the minute. I hear plenty of churches praying for Israel now like never before, (both here and America) but where is the visible protests?? I think the fundamentalist support for Israel is very much still there, but there is sadly not enough motivation to get them on the streets. Part of the problem is that protesting can be seen as the domain of the scum bags, ie the palis, the terrorist supporters etc. A few marches organized by Christians would look great, and show the world the real support that exists. Media portrays the world as condeming Israel's current actions because 'good men are doing nothing'!

[orwellsghost]

I think there is a lot of support for Israel or at least not for Hamas, however I think a lot of pro-Israelis actually fear visibly supporting Israel since there have been so many incidences of pro-Hamas supporters attacking Israelis and even Jews. Have you seen any of the videos on Youtube? They act like animals and are very intimidating, threatening violence, even to little old ladies.

Also, in a lot of countries its not pc to support Israel and people have to face losing their jobs or being shunned because the powers that be try to intimidate pro-Israelis and stop free speech.

But I think a lot of people are angry. There is a facebook group supporting Israel with almost 150,000 members (and a lot of non-Jews by the look of it).

[Yala]

I think there is a lot of support for Israel or at least not for Hamas, however I think a lot of pro-Israelis actually fear visibly supporting Israel since there have been so many incidences of pro-Hamas supporters attacking Israelis and even Jews. Have you seen any of the videos on Youtube? They act like animals and are very intimidating, threatening violence, even to little old ladies.

Also, in a lot of countries its not pc to support Israel and people have to face losing their jobs or being shunned because the powers that be try to intimidate pro-Israelis and stop free speech.

But I think a lot of people are angry. There is a facebook group supporting Israel with almost 150,000 members (and a lot of non-Jews by the look of it).

OG, this may be true in the UK, but not where the Christian Evangelicals live in the south US. There are very few muslims there so the intimidation factor wouldn't be there. These people go to megachurches with 100k people+. Who can beat that?

[thatisraelgirl]

I wouldn't take it personally either the Christians aren't out there protesting on Isreal's behalf. Right now they've just passed laws allowing crucifixion in Gaza and Iran and the Christians don't even protest that. I'm appreciative they're behind Israel at all. (thatisrealgirl.com)

[CLL1709]

As a Christian I am wondering the same thing. Last week I was at a Jewish synagogue in Tampa for a rally that was not even covered by the local media outlets! I am asking questions of every organization I can find, such as Christians United for Israel. Their representative was there, as well as some of his congregation. But as far as I could tell the main stream churches such as Methodists, Catholic, etc were not represented. If I get any response from anyone I will let you know.

[Madeline]

Same thing here. The only thing I could come up with was a pro Israel rally in Portland, OR.
I don't see it as not wanting to protest, or fearing reprimand of any kind. Christians/conservative Christians just don't protest. It's usually seen as unbecoming. I also doubt that it would get much coverage.
Churches are with Israel, that is for sure.
Are there any pro Israel rallies? Christian, Jewish.....any?

[Israel98]

Just want to second what Madeline said. I am a Christian, I guess evangelical though I dont' use that term, and I even live in the South. We just don't protest. It is not part of our culture. We do pray for Israel all the time though, both at our church services and as individuals. The Christians that I have met over the years love Israel and the Israeli people. We believe that prayer is the most powerful action we can take on behalf of Israel, even more powerful than protesting.

[Yala]

I hear what you're saying and I don't "do" protests either but when I saw all those Hamasniks marching in every European capital in addition to NY, LA and Ft Lauderdale, I felt it was our duty to come out and show that this country supports Israel.

[Aviva]

Churches are with Israel, that is for sure.


I wish we had some of this support in the UK but church attendance is very low amongst the British. The Church of England's stand on most things seems to be quite liberal or left-wing, so I would think in general they would support the Palestinians over Israel anyway, as they view them as desperate and poverty stricken, irrelevant of the actual reasons why. The Baptist churches are mainly black people and I would think they would agree with the Church of England in this regard, identifying more with the Palestinians.

The largest group of Catholics in the UK are now the Polish immigrants, and with their legendary deeply ingrained antisemitism, as well as the current Pope's view on all things Jewish, I would expect them to blame Israel, or both sides equally.

In the last census in 2001, 70% of British people identified themselves as Christian but unless they speak up, I have to assume that they don't care about Israel or the Jewish people like many American Christians do.

[Madeline]

I wish we had some of this support in the UK but church attendance is very low amongst the British. The Church of England's stand on most things seems to be quite liberal or left-wing, so I would think in general they would support the Palestinians over Israel anyway, as they view them as desperate and poverty stricken, irrelevant of the actual reasons why. The Baptist churches are mainly black people and I would think they would agree with the Church of England in this regard, identifying more with the Palestinians.

The largest group of Catholics in the UK are now the Polish immigrants, and with their legendary deeply ingrained antisemitism, as well as the current Pope's view on all things Jewish, I would expect them to blame Israel, or both sides equally.

In the last census in 2001, 70% of British people identified themselves as Christian but unless they speak up, I have to assume that they don't care about Israel or the Jewish people like many American Christians do.
This is an organization fully behind Israel
http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_cufi

[ItsMyJewty]

Aviva: In the last census in 2001, 70% of British people identified themselves as Christian but unless they speak up, I have to assume that they don't care about Israel or the Jewish people like many American Christians do.

Nobody in Britain speaks up about anything and that's why the place is in such a mess - spiralling unemployment, the cisis in the housing market, the appalling state of the "health service" and education (university fees), and the complete lack of social security are just a few examples. Brown's running a Thatcherite right-wing dictatorship - did you know that the British are the most watched people on earth? There are millions of cameras anywhere. They'll put up with anything, it seems.

[Y. Shulamith]

These evangelicals are in la-la land, most all of them. They want to see Jews back in Israel so they can witness the "rapture" and have Jesus resurrected, they go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell.

Their friendship is not without a rather crazy motive. I know some of these people and it's not very funny, the basis for their "friendship" with Israel, as it is a means to an end, for them.

Crazy is as crazy does.

:tdown:

[Y. Shulamith]

Why haven't they marched to show their support for Israel? There are over 75 million + who are pro-Israel in this country alone. They usually reside in the south. Where have they been?


They aren't there because Jews and Israel are just a means to bring on the resurrection, rapture and armaggedon.

*crazy people*

*sigh*

[Madeline]

They aren't there because Jews and Israel are just a means to bring on the resurrection, rapture and armaggedon.

*crazy people*

*sigh*

Either we are crazy, or we just have Faith. Don't forget, the one we worship is a Jew as well.
Love ya too.;)

[Yala]

These evangelicals are in la-la land, most all of them. They want to see Jews back in Israel so they can witness the "rapture" and have Jesus resurrected, they go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell.

Their friendship is not without a rather crazy motive. I know some of these people and it's not very funny, the basis for their "friendship" with Israel, as it is a means to an end, for them.


Crazy is as crazy does.

:tdown:

I don't see why their beliefs are "crazier" than any others. Don't Jews believe that Moses split a sea? Don't Muslims believe Muhammed rode into the sky on a horse? Don't Christian people believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

Are any of those more or less believable than the rapture?

Don't we, as Jews, believe that a Messiah is going to come to bring us all to Israel???

I'm not talking about you Y Shulamith, but I always find it funny when "liberals" insult Christian Evangelicals yet defend the rights of fundamentalist Muslims. At least Bill Mahr and Christopher Hitchens insult all religions equally.

[Y. Shulamith]

Excuse me, but some things I take as a metaphor, and somethings I take in a more literal sense, however, the rapture, resurrection and armageddon is the centerpiece of most Christian fundamentalist believe, with Israel, Jews and other non-believers going straight to "hell".....

[bararallu]

Excuse me, but some things I take as a metaphor, and somethings I take in a more literal sense, however, the rapture, resurrection and armageddon is the centerpiece of most Christian fundamentalist believe, with Israel, Jews and other non-believers going straight to "hell".....

Shulamith,

Come on... why do you care? Do you believe in Christian doctrine? Why is it an issue for you? Are people preaching to your face? Are they harming Jews somewhere? If people are motivated theologically and their actions are aligned with you; if they help you why do you care? There are religious Jews who are Zionist. I'm an atheist I don't care whether they are religious Jews or Christians or Hindus or anything else. IMHO, the Evangelical community is the single greatest reason that Israel is supported in the US so widely (compared to Europe), not AIPAC and the rest of the Jewish orgs combined. Please consider the cutting off ones nose to spite ones face here....

[Aviva]

I see the point Shulamith is making though, that Christian support for Israel could be interpreted as being insincere and based on a fundamental disrespect for Judaism, inasmuch as those Christians who theologically want to see all Jews gathered back in the land of Israel want this because Jesus is going to convert them all and Judaism will be finished forever.

But this very reasoning is what prompted Oliver Cromwell to allow the Jews to return to settle in England again in 1656, so, as for Christian motives, who cares.

[ItsMyJewty]

There's no such thing as evangelism in Britain - it's each to their own there.

[Mediocrates]

Yeah but some of them are loons. Ever hear that Jack van Impe nut? The world is ending in 2012 anyhow. But send him some money and he'll give you a plaque demonstrating you'll be saved.

[Yala]

Yeah but some of them are loons.

Every religion has their loons. We definitely have our fair share!

[Madeline]

Every religion has their loons. We definitely have our fair share!

You called, dear?:p

[bararallu]

You called, dear?:p

I think Yala may be refering to the dozens of well known Rabbis that sell blessings, and/or are totally not in touch with reality or the klal Israel that Zionism realistically establishes. Many ultra orthodox are not especially Zionist at all, some are anti like the NK and the Satmars.

......................................
We Jews should look into fixing our house before pointing fingers at those that generally mean us well, what are we Palestinians?

[KiwiWriter]

As well as every group having its share of loons, there's also people out there who will identify with a group simply to push their own agenda. It's definately a lot easier to steal land and resources if you have the blessing and approval of someone very influential. Be it King or Pope or whatever.

[Madeline]

I think Yala may be refering to the dozens of well known Rabbis that sell blessings, and/or are totally not in touch with reality or the klal Israel that Zionism realistically establishes. Many ultra orthodox are not especially Zionist at all, some are anti like the NK and the Satmars.

......................................
We Jews should look into fixing our house before pointing fingers at those that generally mean us well, what are we Palestinians?
I know, and I was just joking. I make fun of myself often. Life's too short.

[Fall]

I think they are considered a bit more "loony" because they take every word literally. I watched a couple sermons and a preacher was talking about how every time the U.S. sends/(sent) a peace envoy to Israel America suffered extreme weather/hurricanes. He said that Israel was the apple of god's eye and sending our people there is like poking god in the eye. Comparing god's body to geographic borders is pretty loony, but mixing politics and religion never works anyway.

[Sharona]

There's no such thing as evangelism in Britain - it's each to their own there.

It's more of a different outlook in the UK.

The Brits - in general - don't talk about religion. It's just not a massive topic of conversation over here. I know some pretty devout people but they never talk about their faith. They just get on with it, quietly.

I would say that there's an unspoken thing that you don't question peoples' religion, income or politics. It's just not 'done':)

I also think we're wary of the politics-religion mix. When Tony Blair said that G-d would judge him, there was a bit of a 'what???????????' - you see politicians going to church (probably for appearances sake) but if they started to talk about it or prayed or similiar - I think we'd throw a hissy fit.

We have a bloody history where religion and politics are concerned. I think we've learned a lesson!

[Madeline]

I think they are considered a bit more "loony" because they take every word literally. I watched a couple sermons and a preacher was talking about how every time the U.S. sends/(sent) a peace envoy to Israel America suffered extreme weather/hurricanes. He said that Israel was the apple of god's eye and sending our people there is like poking god in the eye. Comparing god's body to geographic borders is pretty loony, but mixing politics and religion never works anyway.

Pat Robertson? Yep, he is a bit iffy:lol:

[Sharona]

Oh - by the way, the 2012 thing is a very widespread thing with some very sinister sidelines.

Has anyone read Hannah Newman's online book 'Rainbow Swastika'?

[Madeline]

Oh - by the way, the 2012 thing is a very widespread thing with some very sinister sidelines.

Has anyone read Hannah Newman's online book 'Rainbow Swastika'?
No, and the 2012 thing is news to me.

[Fall]

2012 is the end of the Myan calendar too! I don't know much about that conspiracy it was on the history channel the other day, but i tend to stay away from conspiracy theories because the source usually draws back to a man who claims to be abducted by aliens. :scratch:

[Sharona]

It's a number of theories based on the Mayan Calendar which ends on 21st December 2012.

I've been researching it for about two years - which is how I found Hannah's book. My interest, initially, was scientific but I kind of changed direction when I saw how big and how diverse this topic was.

It interested me because it's seen so differently by so many different people - some are utterly paranoid, seeing conspiracy theories in everything. 2012 means - variously - the end of the world, the start of a 'Golden Age', the New World Order, the One World Religion, Aliens, - all sorts, depending on the guru you're following. But it's picking up in momentum with every passing month.

What I did begin to see as my researched progressed was anti-semitic. The idea that there really is an Illuminati - mostly Zionist of course - whose aim is to take over the world. Laughable as it may seem, I think it's dodgy to ignore it because there's some seeting anti-semitism going on underneath the usual radar. A fair bit of it coloured in as 'New Age'. Most New Ager's haven't a clue that Alice Bailey is their fundamental founder.

If you read Hannah's online book, you may initially think her focus on 2012 and the New Age is nuts - but if you stick with it, you'll might see a red flag or two.

[Steve369]

Well...

I actually grew up attending church in what use to be a Jewish Synagogue on the West Side of Chicago. From elementary through high school I had public school teachers that were Jewish. I guess it must of had some kind of affect on me, because on one hand I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and at the same time I do support the seed of Abraham:

http://www.sanddust.com/writingsingle.html

[Agricola]

I supose you could call me an "evangelical" CHristian, I could go into great details over this topic, but most people wouldnt read it. FIrst I shall address this issue over number of "Christians" in the UK, yes 70% of people put Christian on census form, but this is just a traditional thing, most British people simply put "Church of England" as their religion because that is the done thing.

Recent polls carried out by TearCraft show that only about 10% of the UK population attend church, with even a smaller number attending regular. a good percentage of these people are made up from immigrants such as Africans and Eastern Europeans.

Many Churches in the UK take and Anti-Israel bias, I am not sure what extent of US churches this applies to, but I know quite a few are anti-Israel. I am glad to say however that my church is 100% behind Israel and the Jews.

Why is it so many Christians do not seem to want to stand with Israel? One reason is due to the ever increasing popular teaching of "replacement theology", where it is argued that God has now replaced his chosen people, the Jews for the Christian Church. This of course is utterly blasphemous and ridiculous. God makes it clear who his chosen people are and always will be, he promised Abraham that. God does not break promises.

Many Christians are also too liberal and wishy washy, they are shown pictures of dead children and piles of rubble and are instantly brainwashed into thinking Israel is simply a nation of brutal thugs bent on genocide and how can they support such a country who acts in this brutal and barbaric way.

There are many reasons, but these are main two points I feel.

[Aviva]

Why is it so many Christians do not seem to want to stand with Israel? One reason is due to the ever increasing popular teaching of "replacement theology", where it is argued that God has now replaced his chosen people, the Jews for the Christian Church.

Surely that replacement theology historically forms the very basis of anti-semitism, along with the whole killing Jesus libel. I'm amazed that any Christian in the modern world would still believe this. But many do.


This of course is utterly blasphemous and ridiculous. God makes it clear who his chosen people are and always will be, he promised Abraham that. God does not break promises.

You are exactly the kind of Christian I have a lot of respect for.

But tell me, what do evangelical Christians believe will happen when the Jews are gathered back to the land of Israel? Do they believe that Jesus will come and again convert them? Surely that will mean the end of Judaism?

[Steve369]

Aricola.

I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Yet Avia I would be careful of grouping people who believe this kind of teaching in one "box." I have spent some time getting to know these people and I can say with certainty that some of them love Israel and the Jewish people dearly. In fact one group that I use to fellowship with celebrated the Passover every year.

There are various reasons why people some how end up drifting in the wrong direction, but I will start with the people I grew up with (people of my race or color).

Like diamonds, African American people have a very rich culture that has survived over the years under lots of heat and "pressure." Now I mention diamonds, because I took a geology 101 class in collage and we discussed the theory of how diamonds are made over many years. When you live among African Americans, experience the challenges, and learn about the history of the people you can get a better understanding about how they think as a people, but there are always exceptions. For one thing, I do not play basketball or football, but I do like to swim, ride horses, fly airplanes, and play the piano. People who listen to the music that I compose and produce are often "taken back" when I show up to perform live.

When I look at the old pictures of the blacks from the slave days on up through the sixties I actually see a somewhat different kind of people or at least a group with a different outlook on life. Given I grew up getting to know these kind of people in a church environment I would say that what I am trying to convey to you is pretty accurate. On one hand back in the 60s and before African Americans struggled physically, mentally, and emotionally to survive. Yet many of them relied on God as their helper and attended church faithfully. They were also hard workers and were very friendly and unified. Although the challenges were a lot harder then in most cases when compared to now, many didn't seem to use "being black" as an excuse to fail or to blame another race as the reason of their failure.

Over time liberal thinkers with new ideas somehow evolved among the people. Their speeches sounded good. One popular person who is well known and respected among many blacks taught the following "lie": that "white men were the devil" and that Christianity was the "white man's" religion. I actually see a similar pattern as what happened in Germany with Hitler. These kind of people created what is called a "paradigm shift" in the way black people think as a whole and I believe the finally "spark" began after Dr. Martin Luther King was killed.

So from then on African Americans started to view life out of one lens with a single world view. Although the Lord clearly states in the book of Genesis that: "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Still most African Americans view the situation in Israel like they do their situation in America. They look at Israel as "European White Oppressors" and they view the Arabs like themselves "black living in a white society."

Now....

Please keep in mind as I said earlier that there are always exceptions and to try to put humans in a "box" is wrong. Basically I have seen a similar situation develop among many Americans and Christians as a whole. But just like the black church I believe the church as a whole in the USA and England have drifted away from the "truth" and embraced a new religion that "feels" and "sounds good." Believe it or not I have even met Jewish Americans that are against Israel (Gee was I taken back). They insisted that Israel was in the wrong. Yet I really believe that this comes from bad teaching as well as listening to lies over a span of many years and CNN as well as most media groups are the real leaders.

http://www.sanddust.com/writing.htm

[Madeline]

Aricola.

I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Yet Avia I would be careful of grouping people who believe this kind of teaching in one "box." I have spent some time getting to know these people and I can say with certainty that some of them love Israel and the Jewish people dearly. In fact one group that I use to fellowship with celebrated the Passover every year.

There are various reasons why people some how end up drifting in the wrong direction, but I will start with the people I grew up with (people of my race or color).

Like diamonds, African American people have a very rich culture that has survived over the years under lots of heat and "pressure." Now I mention diamonds, because I took a geology 101 class in collage and we discussed the theory of how diamonds are made over many years. When you live among African Americans, experience the challenges, and learn about the history of the people you can get a better understanding about how they think as a people, but there are always exceptions. For one thing, I do not play basketball or football, but I do like to swim, ride horses, fly airplanes, and play the piano. People who listen to the music that I compose and produce are often "taken back" when I show up to perform live.

When I look at the old pictures of the blacks from the slave days on up through the sixties I actually see a somewhat different kind of people or at least a group with a different outlook on life. Given I grew up getting to know these kind of people in a church environment I would say that what I am trying to convey to you is pretty accurate. On one hand back in the 60s and before African Americans struggled physically, mentally, and emotionally to survive. Yet many of them relied on God as their helper and attended church faithfully. They were also hard workers and were very friendly and unified. Although the challenges were a lot harder then in most cases when compared to now, many didn't seem to use "being black" as an excuse to fail or to blame another race as the reason of their failure.

Over time liberal thinkers with new ideas somehow evolved among the people. Their speeches sounded good. One popular person who is well known and respected among many blacks taught the following "lie": that "white men were the devil" and that Christianity was the "white man's" religion. I actually see a similar pattern as what happened in Germany with Hitler. These kind of people created what is called a "paradigm shift" in the way black people think as a whole and I believe the finally "spark" began after Dr. Martin Luther King was killed.

So from then on African Americans started to view life out of one lens with a single world view. Although the Lord clearly states in the book of Genesis that: "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Still most African Americans view the situation in Israel like they do their situation in America. They look at Israel as "European White Oppressors" and they view the Arabs like themselves "black living in a white society."

Now....

Please keep in mind as I said earlier that there are always exceptions and to try to put humans in a "box" is wrong. Basically I have seen a similar situation develop among many Americans and Christians as a whole. But just like the black church I believe the church as a whole in the USA and England have drifted away from the "truth" and embraced a new religion that "feels" and "sounds good." Believe it or not I have even met Jewish Americans that are against Israel (Gee was I taken back). They insisted that Israel was in the wrong. Yet I really believe that this comes from bad teaching as well as listening to lies over a span of many years and CNN as well as most media groups are the real leaders.

http://www.sanddust.com/writing.htm

I absolutely agree with this. Yes, we have to be careful not to put people into one box or another. We all are individuals, with individual thoughts. Or, at least, we should be.
But more often than not, we group around someone who voices what we feel at a given moment in time. Many are out there who seek to profit from this need to belong, and often for the wrong reason. Beware of false Prophets....
Taking the Bible literally, starting in the first book of the Bible, one is commanded to embrace, to love the Jews.

[Agricola]

Surely that replacement theology historically forms the very basis of anti-semitism, along with the whole killing Jesus libel. I'm amazed that any Christian in the modern world would still believe this. But many do.



You are exactly the kind of Christian I have a lot of respect for.

But tell me, what do evangelical Christians believe will happen when the Jews are gathered back to the land of Israel? Do they believe that Jesus will come and again convert them? Surely that will mean the end of Judaism?
First of all I hope I will not offend anyone with some of my comments, but this is a Christian based thread, so I will take liberties to point out some things that may not be acceptable to some, but I feel its needed to be said to answer the question properly.

Before I begin to answer questions, I would just like to point out that its not just "evangelical" Christians who look favourably upon Israel. There are plenty of people across all denominations who all think the same regarding this matter, just as there are people across all denominations who beleive in replacement theology. I do not really want to get tied down into denominational differences, as it even confuses me at times!


Anyway on to your question

I shall address your second part of your question as it is more brief. There are plenty of Messianic Jews who no doubt can deal with this a bit better, but as I see and understand it.

I think that many Jews have a wary and even hateful view of Christians due to the harsh treatment over the centuries carried out against Jews in name of Christianity mainly by the the Catholic Church. Despite what the Catholic tried to achieve, to erase every trace of Judaism and convert Jews to being good little Catholics, to accept Christ and be a Christian you do not have to abandon your Jewish roots or to discontinue everything that defines Judaism, You still go to Temple, you still obey and observe feast days, read from Torah carry on as you have done to an extent.

The only real difference accepting Jesus Christ as the Messiah, is that you give up a number of old laws, the main one being sacrifice. Christ's death is the ultimate sacrifice for ALL mankind, His death replaced the old law and need for sacrifice to cover up sin.

Anyway before I end up saying something inaccurate, if i haven't already then I will move on.


The restoration of Israel and the return of all Jews to their rightful and promised land is a huge land mark in End Times prophecy, and key point before the Tribulation, Daniels 70th week, can begin.

There may well be some people who think that maybe if they could amazingly move all Jews back to Israel then suddenly that will bring in the tribulation a lot quicker so to speak. I do not really see how we can push God to move quicker or make God do things in our time. God has it all planed out and knows the timings of events, we can not really do much to influence these things.

Many people think that the Tribulation, will be in our life time, but it could be 100 years. This excitement and anticipation about being "our generation" was first triggered when Israel became a nation back in 1948, as this fulfilled one of the prophecy's in order that the Tribulation can happen, no doubt people being impatient thinking things will happen in a few years rather than 100s maybe.

Now Israel is in existence and the Jews returning, A number of key events can now take place that centre around Israel and Jerusalem. Again people argue and debate over the exact timing of these events etc, but as with all prophecy we are only given enough to know for sure when it has happened, but not when it will happen.

A few key points to note, The Gog Magog War Ezekiel 38, where the armies of the North, and South will attack Israel, The recent events of last year sparked much anticipation and speculation, would Russia help Iran with a Arab coalition force attack Israel?

Formation of the One World Government under the Antichrist. Some kind of major disaster or disasters have to come upon the world when Antichrist will take command of the whole world, this could be as a result of the Gog- Magog war.

Antichrist comes up with a peace proposal accepted by Israel and Palestinians, which will see The Temple being built upon The Temple Mount with sacrifices allowed.

Half way into Daniels 70th week, the Tribulation, it all goes pear shaped where the Anti-Christ sets himself up to be worshipped and defiles The Temple. Jews rise up Antichrist wages war against the Jews, who flee to hills and take refuge in Petra. Antichrist comes to destroy Israel once and for all, which is when we see the True Messiah return to destroy the Antichrist and the worlds army, taking His place on throne in Temple and having all the nations bow at his feet, this will bring 1000 years of peace, when we see final battle and judgement.

I hope this very brief and abridged account gives you a better idea as to how many Christians see Israel and Jews tied in with End Times Prophecy and why we see Israel's reformation and Jews making Aliyah important.

[Aviva]

Yet Avia I would be careful of grouping people who believe this kind of teaching in one "box." I have spent some time getting to know these people and I can say with certainty that some of them love Israel and the Jewish people dearly. In fact one group that I use to fellowship with celebrated the Passover every year.

Loving the Jewish people but respecting their pre-existing Jewish religion isn't always the same thing, though. Many Christians believe the Jews should convert, just like the Inquisition did.


They look at Israel as "European White Oppressors" and they view the Arabs like themselves "black living in a white society."

This is a good point and also the reason why a lot of Western liberals are anti-Israel.


Believe it or not I have even met Jewish Americans that are against Israel (Gee was I taken back). They insisted that Israel was in the wrong.

You'll find Jews all over the world who don't support Israel, for lots of different reasons; some have left-wing or liberal values and will want to support who they perceive as being the poor people, (ie: the Palestinians), some may feel personally guilty about Israel's military actions, some may be too ultra religious to get involved in politics, some don't understand the history and context of the situation, some just don't care. Sadly, some of the harshest critics of Israel and Jews, can be Jews themselves. It doesn't make what they say any truer, though, despite what they may think.

[Aviva]

First of all I hope I will not offend anyone with some of my comments, but this is a Christian based thread, so I will take liberties to point out some things that may not be acceptable to some, but I feel its needed to be said to answer the question properly.

Thanks for even considering that. Honestly, I do feel it's a rare Christian who does.



I shall address your second part of your question as it is more brief. There are plenty of Messianic Jews who no doubt can deal with this a bit better, but as I see and understand it.

I avoid them, for obvious reasons. They want to convert Jews.


you do not have to abandon your Jewish roots or to discontinue everything that defines Judaism,

The only real difference accepting Jesus Christ as the Messiah, is that you give up a number of old laws, the main one being sacrifice. Christ's death is the ultimate sacrifice for ALL mankind, His death replaced the old law and need for sacrifice to cover up sin.

I would disagree and refer you to the Ten Commandments. Being a Christian involves breaking the "There's only One G-d" commandment and also the one about worshipping idols. The Jewish Messiah is a human being; a king, like King David, not a little bit G-d, a little bit holy spirit and a little bit man. The whole theology doesn't equate.



The restoration of Israel and the return of all Jews to their rightful and promised land is a huge land mark in End Times prophecy, and key point before the Tribulation, Daniels 70th week, can begin.

I've honestly ever heard of this - Tribulation and Daniel's 70th week. Where has this doctrine come from? Catholicism?




Formation of the One World Government under the Antichrist. Some kind of major disaster or disasters have to come upon the world when Antichrist will take command of the whole world, this could be as a result of the Gog- Magog war.

Antichrist comes up with a peace proposal accepted by Israel and Palestinians, which will see The Temple being built upon The Temple Mount with sacrifices allowed.

So the antichrist brings peace and rebuilds the Temple? This is what Jews expect of their awaited Messiah.


Half way into Daniels 70th week, the Tribulation, it all goes pear shaped where the Anti-Christ sets himself up to be worshipped and defiles The Temple. Jews rise up Antichrist wages war against the Jews, who flee to hills and take refuge in Petra. Antichrist comes to destroy Israel once and for all, which is when we see the True Messiah return to destroy the Antichrist and the worlds army, taking His place on throne in Temple and having all the nations bow at his feet, this will bring 1000 years of peace, when we see final battle and judgement.

Wow. Is there a movie?! So what's the end result? Israel is saved from the anti-christ who rebuilt the Temple. What then happens to the Temple and the Jewish religion?


I hope this very brief and abridged account gives you a better idea as to how many Christians see Israel and Jews tied in with End Times Prophecy and why we see Israel's reformation and Jews making Aliyah important.

Thanks. But who is it who does all the deciphering of what this all really means? Surely every generation of Christians believes the end times refers to their era?

[Sharona]

Interesting, Agricola:)

Are you aware of Ahmadinejad's 'mystic experience' whilst delivering a speech to the UN? And his conviction that he will, in some way, play a part in ushering in the return of the Imam Mahdi? Which appears to be imminent, in his view. This conviction has led to a 'Messiah' line and specialist news agencies in Iran, dedicated to providing Iranians with the latest developments.

Unfortunately, Ahmadinejad's belief is that the Imam will also bring about global battles - the 'Armageddon' story - in order to restore justice and remove oppression.

Oppression is clearly a subjective term - I, for one, would consider Iran a repressive regime, especially for women.

When religion and politics mix the result is very worrying. Especially if you factor the word 'nuclear' into the equation.

[Agricola]

I avoid them, for obvious reasons. They want to convert Jews.
Yes many people are often too zealous and caught up in wanting instant conversions, which often has the effect of pushing people away and making them stay clear.



I've honestly ever heard of this - Tribulation and Daniel's 70th week. Where has this doctrine come from? Catholicism?....

.....
Thanks. But who is it who does all the deciphering of what this all really means? Surely every generation of Christians believes the end times refers to their era?

It comes from the word of God! And yes every generation thinks that it refers to their era! people saying "the end is nigh" 100+ years ago HOWEVER, 100 years ago we did not have a nation of Israel, 2000 years without a nation, now the Jews have their own land again, which makes the statement "The End Is Nigh" more plausible. Just about every person and denomination has their own little version of end times. There are also some very dangerous far out teachings that are definitely not correct. AS for being Catholic, I will not touch Catholicism with a barge pole.



I would disagree and refer you to the Ten Commandments. Being a Christian involves breaking the "There's only One G-d" commandment and also the one about worshipping idols. The Jewish Messiah is a human being; a king, like King David.

I can understand the thinking behind this and it is logical, However Christians accept everything that Jesus CHrist said about himself and that He is the Son of God, he is God made flesh on earth. . Then there is Holy Spirit, difficult concept for even Christians to understand, seeing as our puny minds are closed to many things, just accept that the Trinity is one and is God, but in different forms.. difficult to comprehend yes, but thats how it is.

Christ fulfilled hundreds of prophecy's given over thousands of years. There are countless signs and things Christ did that scream out he is the Son of God and the Messiah, yet the Jews refuse to interpret them and see them as such. The crucial turning point was Palm Sunday, when all the Jews turned out to cheer Christ on into Jerusalem, thinking He would kick the Romans out and rule, but of course He did not and therefore the Jews still wait for the Messiahs first coming. which leads us onto ...

So the antichrist brings peace and rebuilds the Temple? This is what Jews expect of their awaited Messiah. Yes the Antichrist is seen as the Messiah and treated us such, its only until he defiles the Temple it is clear he is not.


Wow. Is there a movie?
;) yes i believe so although i haven't seen it :D

At the end of day Christians and Jews both have the same God. The Jews are Gods chosen people and God will stand by His promises to the Jews. Just look how a few strips of desert and dusty barren land has been transformed into fruitful powerful prosperous nation.

I am saddened how much distrust and dare I say hate between Jews and Christians exists today, born out of thousands of years of persecution of Jews by so called Christians. It is ironic as Christ was a Jew and some Christians seemed shocked at this.

Anyway I am not on these forums to preach or convert.. Honest! but to simply be on a forum where I can talk about Israel and politics without being called a child killing evil monster.

[Agricola]

Interesting, Agricola:)

Are you aware of Ahmadinejad's 'mystic experience' whilst delivering a speech to the UN? And his conviction that he will, in some way, play a part in ushering in the return of the Imam Mahdi? .....
Oh yes very much so, you bring up another interesting twist to the complexity of "End Times". The Antichrist will be all things to all people. I am sure you realise how Islam has very close parallels to our scripture , albeit corrupted version. The Arab/Muslims will see the Antichrist as their Iman prophet or whatever, the true Messiah who will return to defeat the Antichrist is in Islam the real Antichrist who is coming to destroy the world.

[Aviva]

It comes from the word of God! And yes every generation thinks that it refers to their era! people saying "the end is nigh" 100+ years ago HOWEVER, 100 years ago we did not have a nation of Israel, 2000 years without a nation, now the Jews have their own land again, which makes the statement "The End Is Nigh" more plausible.

The re-established state of Israel may exist for hundreds of years to come though. Right from the very first day in 1948 it was attacked by five different armies and it's still here today, so it may go on indefinitely without an End Of Days.



Christ fulfilled hundreds of prophecy's given over thousands of years. There are countless signs and things Christ did that scream out he is the Son of God and the Messiah, yet the Jews refuse to interpret them and see them as such.

It's not a question of refusal, it's a question of total disagreement that Jesus does in fact match these prophesies. The Gospels try hard to make them fit but they actually don't. There are probably several threads about this subject on this forum. I think this subject is a good example of Christian supercessionism over Judaism.

Here's a website about this subject that might be of interest: http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

Many Christians are not aware that there have been several proposed Messiahs in Jewish history, the most interesting of which is Sabbatai Levi in the 17th century. Currently, the Lubavichers (the black hatted guys) believe that their Rebbe Schneerson, who died in 1991, is the Messiah. This is because he's a person who fits the profile for recognising who the Messiah will be as laid down by Maimonides.



At the end of day Christians and Jews both have the same God.

I wouldn't actually agree with that, seeing as their theologies and concepts of G-d are really quite different.

[Agricola]

Ok Aviva, fair enough, you obviously familiar with all the arguments and counter arguments, what you have come out with is what I expected, and lets just leave it at that and agree to disagree shall we? I have no quarrel with you and no wish or desire to. :) As for timings, yes we have no idea of times, way I see it Israel will stand for a thousand years anyway with the Messiah as Ruler of all nations.

[Aviva]

Ok Aviva, fair enough, you obviously familiar with all the arguments and counter arguments, what you have come out with is what I expected, and lets just leave it at that and agree to disagree shall we? I have no quarrel with you and no wish or desire to. :) As for timings, yes we have no idea of times, way I see it Israel will stand for a thousand years anyway with the Messiah as Ruler of all nations.

Yes, I'm familiar with this subject.

I just don't see why Christianity can't be a religion based on faith, charity, good deeds, etc, that stands alone, without constantly trying to interfere with and change a pre-existing religion of a tribal group.

It's hardly fair! Your Messiah is your Messiah. Ours is someone else. It's as simple as that.

[Sharona]

Hi Agricola

I'm not up for conversion but I am interested in how the 'Son of G-d' belief developed because it does appear to have been a divisive factor over the ages, causing all manner of persecution.

I'm no authority on the New Testament but does Jesus actually declare himself to be the Son of G-d? I didn't think this was the case. He also said he hadn't come to change the law (but to fulfil it) and also when asked what were the most important words in the law (or something akin to that) he replied by reciting the beginning of the Shema - the Jewish prayer, the opening lines of which refers to the oneness of God, not the three-ness. So Jesus himself appears not to go with the 'three-in-one' view.

Which prophecies do you believe Jesus fulfilled?

I'm honestily interested in this because of the troubles it has caused - with no intention of my words appearing to be an argument:)

[bararallu]

Surely that will mean the end of Judaism?

"When the Machiach comes" in normative orthodox Judaism, Jewish practice is supposed to stop being what it is today to a great extent (Temple & tithes for one).

[Aviva]

"When the Machiach comes" in normative orthodox Judaism, Jewish practice is supposed to stop being what it is today to a great extent (Temple & tithes for one).

Yes, I've heard this, too, that the festivals won't be celebrated anymore. Do the mitzvot still apply?

And if the Mosiach rebuilds the Temple, what happens then with regards to sacrifices and tithes?

[dayag]

Yes, I've heard this, too, that the festivals won't be celebrated anymore. Do the mitzvot still apply?

And if the Mosiach rebuilds the Temple, what happens then with regards to sacrifices and tithes?

There are a bunch of guys at Yeshivat Ateret Cohanim studying for the day when the Temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices are commence again.

http://www.ateret.org.il/

[bararallu]

Yes, I've heard this, too, that the festivals won't be celebrated anymore. Do the mitzvot still apply?

Mitzvot, or some subset of them will be in effect, AFAIK. Some festivals will still be celebrated also.


And if the Mosiach rebuilds the Temple, what happens then with regards to sacrifices and tithes?

From my readings, it's not clear whether the Moshiach rebuilds the Temple or comes at the time when the Temple is rebuilt or being rebuilt. This is somewhat parallel to the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty in Israel, for Jews and Christians alike- for comparative but different reasons as you are discussing them up top.

Yes sacrifices will be 100% re-established (mutton futures are looking up!) as are tithes, if your are a Cohen. The rest of us lowly Levites and Israelites will need to keep employment somewhere in the olam habah.

BTW, arguments against are welcome, but Messianism between normative Jews and Christians are pretty much the same save for the rapture; Jews are not big on the sky ripping open and or brass bugles blowing out of the ether either. :) Upto that point we can theologically easily agree to disagree.

[bararallu]

There are a bunch of guys at Yeshivat Ateret Cohanim studying for the day when the Temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices are commence again.

http://www.ateret.org.il/

LOL. How are they studying for it IF there are dozens of open questions that the Mishna and Tosefta don't get around to answering. I would imagine, the whole exercise is in the realm of precise application and not in "it's the thought that counts" category (Being the Jewish MO and all :D). And how can you be precise if you have no access to the details- from garbs (and their coloring- e.g., the Karaites apply tekhelet right? they do color their tzitzit and talit right while we don't...) to where and how to keep the oil and the animals. Since fidelity to ritual purity is like 90% of the exercise. I wish these guys would write a manifesto pamphlet, I'd like to see them address the details. Practically, we should look to Samaritans and to a lesser extent the Karaites for authentic Temple worship... of course no Rabbi would "stoop that low" :p. Well maybe a Reconstructionist. Ah gotta love the Hebrew peoples.

[KiwiWriter]

Hi Agricola

I'm not up for conversion but I am interested in how the 'Son of G-d' belief developed because it does appear to have been a divisive factor over the ages, causing all manner of persecution.

I'm no authority on the New Testament but does Jesus actually declare himself to be the Son of G-d? I didn't think this was the case. He also said he hadn't come to change the law (but to fulfil it) and also when asked what were the most important words in the law (or something akin to that) he replied by reciting the beginning of the Shema - the Jewish prayer, the opening lines of which refers to the oneness of God, not the three-ness. So Jesus himself appears not to go with the 'three-in-one' view.

Which prophecies do you believe Jesus fulfilled?

I'm honestily interested in this because of the troubles it has caused - with no intention of my words appearing to be an argument:)

If you can get your hands on the book "Cosmic Codes" by Chuck Missler it deals with a lot of your questions.

[ShimonG]

Hi Agricola

I'm not up for conversion but I am interested in how the 'Son of G-d' belief developed because it does appear to have been a divisive factor over the ages, causing all manner of persecution.

I'm no authority on the New Testament but does Jesus actually declare himself to be the Son of G-d? I didn't think this was the case. He also said he hadn't come to change the law (but to fulfil it) and also when asked what were the most important words in the law (or something akin to that) he replied by reciting the beginning of the Shema - the Jewish prayer, the opening lines of which refers to the oneness of God, not the three-ness. So Jesus himself appears not to go with the 'three-in-one' view.

Which prophecies do you believe Jesus fulfilled?

I'm honestily interested in this because of the troubles it has caused - with no intention of my words appearing to be an argument:)

The council of Nicea voted divinity and the son of god stuff. That's also when the whole immaculate conception was voted upon, simply because someone mistranslated the aramaic word for maiden to virgin. Suddenly, it became imp to have jesus born of a "virgin." The condition for messiah were clear. The cardinal one being that the messiah would unite the tribes of Israel. That did not happen during jesus's lifetime. It happened approx 1950 yrs later with the birth of Israel.

It was the early christian church that decided to appropriate our religion and dump the new testament and jesus on us, while claiming our prophets were theirs as well (guess where the pervert mohammad got this idea from ??). That is the basis of anti-semitism. The early church elders knew that as long as one jew remained alive to contest the theft of his faith, the foundation of this "one" or "abrahamic" religion would be in doubt. So, why not kill all jews and no one could protest. The ten commandments are jewish not christian.

mohammad did to jews and christians what christians did to us. Having said that, these decisions were not taken by jesus who from all accounts led an exemplary life. It was the decision of the vatican, the MOST EVIL organization on this planet.

[Agricola]

I see a rather all too common theme cropping up, one which is all too common but an understandable one, amongst just about every person who are not Christians, that is , lumping every Christian , tarnishing every Christian with the Catholic Church. It is no different from me saying “oh all you Jews practice Kabbalah and wear a red string around your wrist don’t you”.

The Roman Catholic Church is evil, there are even prophecys that refer to the RC church as being the counterfeit church, a church that will lead billions to their spiritual death. (wow I feel liberated saying that, on most Christian forums I would end up with a warning or banned for saying this!)

From the very early days corruption and perversion set in the Christian church within the Roman Empire. Many practices and rituals were begun that had no scriptural basis what so ever, but simply a way to lure people from other cults and faiths into churches.

When the Roman Catholic church became into being, most of these practices were allowed and even encouraged, which we still see today after 2000 years. As the Roman Catholic Church was the official brand of Christianity, everyone had to adopt it or face persecution for being heretics, after all the Emperors and Popes who headed the church are appointed by God and must be obeyed regardless.

NO one was immune to persecution, I am sure all the Jews on here are fully aware of all the things done to your people in the name of Christianity by the Catholic church. However these things done to the Jews were also carried out against anyone else who refused to bow to the Pope and convert. Churches in Africa and to Eastern Europe which fell outside of the Popes control escaped, but those inside Europe were not so fortunate.

Simple things such as Communion for example, only one of two practices that Christ commanded Christians to undertake. The RC church will have you believe in transubstantiation , where after the priest blesses the bread and wine, it will actually change from being bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ. OF course the apostles who set up churches would have not taught this, instead we know that the bread and wine are simply symbolic. Just for simply saying that Communion is symbolic you would have at least been imprisoned for a good number of years, If you also condemn other practices carried out by RCC as blasphemous and incorrect and refuse to beg forgiveness and convert then death awaited you.

If I was spreading this message several hundred years ago inside the lands controlled by Rome, then I would have to go into hiding along with my family, which many did, The underground church in Europe who refused to accept the RCC, is not really any different from persecuted church in Islamic and Communist countries we see today.

Many of you will already be thinking of the word Protestant and Orthodox. The Protestants have many different denominations such as Baptist, Methodist, Church of England, all who do things different ways and like to spend much length debating trival issues. Many churches are being eaten away inside by false teaching and prophets, so again discernment is needed these days to spot the false and know the truth. Again it is easy to fall into trap of assuming all Christians follow a certain mould or image given by these false teachings.

Anyway, I hope this has gone some way to clear the path. I will continue to answer questions best I can later on today. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this with you!

[Aviva]

It is no different from me saying “oh all you Jews practice Kabbalah and wear a red string around your wrist don’t you”.

It's not quite the same, seeing as kabbalah is a mystical facet of Judaism that's studied by some of the most ultra religious of Jews. It's a part of Judaism, although it's not always seen as a worthy persuit.


The Roman Catholic Church is evil, there are even prophecys that refer to the RC church as being the counterfeit church

Who made the prophesies? Or rather, who interpreted the prophesies? Are they from the New Testament? Doesn't this refer to a historical period when the Catholic church had a schism with the Orthodox church?

The Catholics and the Pope have done some appalling things throughout history. I see them as embodying the last remaining power of the Roman empire. But surely things have changed now? We live in the modern world and the Catholic church seems to have changed from it's historical counterpart. Although it was only in 1965 that they at last lifted the official ruling that Jews were not collectively responsible for the death of Jesus.

The last Pope seemed like a thoroughly decent guy and was a friend of the Jewish community. The current Pope less so.

Don't you think it's a terrible shame that the Christian world can't unite itself now? The Jewish world is also in disarray; in the UK, the Orthodox and Reform synagogues don't even speak to each other. But it's this lack of unity and the senseless hatred it creates that Jews feel was the reason the Temple was destroyed.

[Sharona]

[QUOTE=Agricola;288380]wow I feel liberated saying that, on most Christian forums I would end up with a warning or banned for saying this!
QUOTE]

Glad to have helped with your liberation:p

I suppose Henry VIII did some people a favour - although Bloody Mary was less obliging.

Seriously, though - I don't lump all together. It doesn't really occur to me to do so as I have friends from all manner of denominations. I don't 'get' all the differences, but I am aware that the Catholic church is out there in a place of its own.

I would agree that it has been quite instrumental in creating fear. Even amongst its own members - and especially in Ireland where the priests were actually quite powerful and almost omnipotent amongst their 'flock'. I can remember a couple of girls that I knew as a child being terrified of their religion due to the numerous opportunities it afforded them to go to hell. It puzzled me how not going to church on Sunday could be right up there with murdering someone.:scratch:

With apologies to any Catholics reading this, I find the practice of confession rather odd. I see the psychological advantages of off-loading guilts but I have known one or two people who seemed to abuse this opportunity - being anything but 'good' throughout the week, going to confession and then feeling free to rinse and repeat, knowing they could confess and be forgiven the following week. It strikes me as a religious 'carte blanche' to be used as a substitute for your conscience.

I did think JPII was an ok bloke, though. He seemed to want to change things a bit.

One thing I don't buy is the tendency of so many Christian denominations to maintain that only they have the 'word'. If you don't attend their church, follow their rules then, again, you're hell-bound. To imagine a G-d who has created the universe (just think of the scientific complexities here) yet has a mind caught up in the pettiness of whether or not someone has figured out which 'word' is right and is duly attending that church just defies logic.

Near where I live is a small group of some denomination who, from time to time, take to the local square where one of them stands atop an orange box and warns us all that we're doomed. Again - to hellfire. I wonder if they genuinely wish to save souls or whether they are attempting to score Brownie points.

Hell seems to be the factor that holds some Christian denominations in check. When I was a Kibbutnik, I was told that the movement was attempting to screen the fundamentalists and not allow them to work as volunteers. The Kibbutz didn't mind what religion you were if you were a temporary member, admitting the American fundamentalists into their number. However, once there, they were attempting to convert and generally targeted the young. One such target - a 15yr old lad - become so distressed by the fundamentlists warnings that unless he converted he would go to hell, that he hanged himself.

[Toadstool46]

To Agricola... I believe all that you are saying to be true.

With Jesus healing the blind, deaf, dumb. Raising Laserus from the dead. Turning water to wine. Feeding the five thousand. Waking on water. Predicting his death. Rising from death and ascending to heavan... He certainly was more than just a man.

With the new age speaking of us being planted by aliens. With the muz taking about the impending doom and Armaghedon. With western christian views ( I don't know how else to put this ) speaking of the tribulation and antichrist. It is fairly simple to see that from many views and beliefs the world is readying for some sort of huge event.

I am surprised that many here haven't explored the book of the revelation. It explains, in detail, exactly what is happening now in the ME and with Israel... It also suprises me why true evangelical Christians aren't praying daily for Israel, supporting Israel and asking for a blessing on Israel.

The Bible even states that Israel won't recognise the messiah until later.

I have different views than many of the Jewish people here, thats for sure. However, I am fully in their corner. Praying for their strength and safety, wisdom of their leaders, stealth and victories of their forces, and bless them often. And complete faith that they are going to survive through all of this and emerge the victor. It is promised by God.

[Madeline]

To Agricola... I believe all that you are saying to be true.

With Jesus healing the blind, deaf, dumb. Raising Laserus from the dead. Turning water to wine. Feeding the five thousand. Waking on water. Predicting his death. Rising from death and ascending to heavan... He certainly was more than just a man.

With the new age speaking of us being planted by aliens. With the muz taking about the impending doom and Armaghedon. With western christian views ( I don't know how else to put this ) speaking of the tribulation and antichrist. It is fairly simple to see that from many views and beliefs the world is readying for some sort of huge event.

I am surprised that many here haven't explored the book of the revelation. It explains, in detail, exactly what is happening now in the ME and with Israel... It also suprises me why true evangelical Christians aren't praying daily for Israel, supporting Israel and asking for a blessing on Israel.

The Bible even states that Israel won't recognise the messiah until later.

I have different views than many of the Jewish people here, thats for sure. However, I am fully in their corner. Praying for their strength and safety, wisdom of their leaders, stealth and victories of their forces, and bless them often. And complete faith that they are going to survive through all of this and emerge the victor. It is promised by God.
Exactly.:clap:

[bararallu]

It's not quite the same, seeing as kabbalah is a mystical facet of Judaism that's studied by some of the most ultra religious of Jews. It's a part of Judaism, although it's not always seen as a worthy persuit.

I disagree. The Lithuanian orthodox branch (as in Vilna Gaon) rejects it outright. Their position on it is that it detracts learning- which is Talmudic. Kabbalism came in the Sephardi community and entered the Ashkenazi community via the Hassidic movement. Most Modern Orthodox, Masorti, and all Litvish derivatives do not practice it either.

I agree however that kabbalism is not quite the divide in Judaism as are theological and practical differences between the RC and the Protestant Churches.

.....................................
BTW the red string is not kabbalistic, lol. Per se anyway. It has more to do with the evil eye than the sephriot and their repair.

[Aviva]

I disagree. The Lithuanian orthodox branch (as in Vilna Gaon) rejects it outright. Their position on it is that it detracts learning- which is Talmudic. Kabbalism came in the Sephardi community and entered the Ashkenazi community via the Hassidic movement. Most Modern Orthodox, Masorti, and all Litvish derivatives do not practice it either.

Yes, but the Hassidim do study it, don't they, and they're a large group worldwide.

As for Masorti and Reform (and Liberal in the UK) they wouldn't be interested in anything too mystical anyway.

[bararallu]

Yes, but the Hassidim do study it, don't they, and they're a large group worldwide.

As for Masorti and Reform (and Liberal in the UK) they wouldn't be interested in anything too mystical anyway.

Right, Hassidim are a Jewish branch, but they are relatively a small minority. As are ultra orthodox Litvish who have the hardest stance on this. BTW, Karaites, Ethiopians (non rabbinical) and Samaritans compose minority branches of Judaism as well- and they are significantly different from the Rabbinical standard. Their religious beliefs are not, however, generalized on to all Jews. I mean we all use facilities on the shabbat right? :p Not to mention the more radical side of the reform movement, and the reconstructionist movement; fairly drastic departures from the mean, which is somewhere in the Conservative movement if I were to take a guess- also not really all that mystical. I also understand that the mappings of a branch are sometimes different- the UK Liberal movement being pretty close to say US Cincinnati based Reform; and the US conservative movement somewhere between the UK Masorti and Reform movements.

Mysticism generally [as is the centralization around (Jewish) Messianism on the other side of the coin] is in my opinion adaptations to living in the galut. It offers a lot to some people spiritually I think, but objectively, on a community level, it's hard to envision it as much more than systematic escapism. Not having the power to effect politics or really self defense forced Jews at some point in history to look for extra sensory and extra historic ways to deal with calamity, and unrewarded righteousness. Rabbinic Judaism generally is a macrocosm of this motif, in the de-centralization of belief from the bedrock of Jerusalem. There are stress points like acceptance of mystical reality in our civilization. Things like it come and go, typically wrapped around a cult of personality. They can peter out over centuries or conform to some compromise or start new religions altogether... well sorry to digress. This is not part of the thread topic.

[Mediocrates]

Yes, but the Hassidim do study it, don't they, and they're a large group worldwide.

As for Masorti and Reform (and Liberal in the UK) they wouldn't be interested in anything too mystical anyway.


Hit or miss. I know two brothers who are Lubavitcher rabbis. One follows Qabbalah, the other thinks it's a scam.

[Aviva]

Right, Hassidim are a Jewish branch, but they are relatively a small minority. As are ultra orthodox Litvish who have the hardest stance on this. BTW, Karaites, Ethiopians (non rabbinical) and Samaritans compose minority branches of Judaism as well- and they are significantly different from the Rabbinical standard. Their religious beliefs are not, however, generalized on to all Jews. I mean we all use facilities on the shabbat right? :p Not to mention the more radical side of the reform movement, and the reconstructionist movement; fairly drastic departures from the mean, which is somewhere in the Conservative movement if I were to take a guess- also not really all that mystical. I also understand that the mappings of a branch are sometimes different- the UK Liberal movement being pretty close to say US Cincinnati based Reform; and the US conservative movement somewhere between the UK Masorti and Reform movements.

Mysticism generally [as is the centralization around (Jewish) Messianism on the other side of the coin] is in my opinion adaptations to living in the galut. It offers a lot to some people spiritually I think, but objectively, on a community level, it's hard to envision it as much more than systematic escapism. Not having the power to effect politics or really self defense forced Jews at some point in history to look for extra sensory and extra historic ways to deal with calamity, and unrewarded righteousness. Rabbinic Judaism generally is a macrocosm of this motif, in the de-centralization of belief from the bedrock of Jerusalem. There are stress points like acceptance of mystical reality in our civilization. Things like it come and go, typically wrapped around a cult of personality. They can peter out over centuries or conform to some compromise or start new religions altogether... well sorry to digress. This is not part of the thread topic.

Interesting; thanks for that. My background is UK Reform but I spend quite a lot of time in very Orthodox areas in London where I see quite a few posters and flyers for talks being given in synagogues and community centres about kabbalistic subjects. This community is largely black hatted men and more modern knitted kippah wearers, so I've assumed they're mainly Hassidim, with a smattering of Modern Orthodox.

I know Karaites and Samaritans have very different beliefs but I don't think I've ever come across any in the UK. They're mostly in Israel, aren't they?

[bararallu]

Hit or miss. I know two brothers who are Lubavitcher rabbis. One follows Qabbalah, the other thinks it's a scam.

Wait. Isn't the Tanya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya) the divergent/innovative text for Hassidism? Isn't it structurally based on kabbalistic principles?

[bararallu]

Interesting; thanks for that. My background is UK Reform but I spend quite a lot of time in very Orthodox areas in London where I see quite a few posters and flyers for talks being given in synagogues and community centres about kabbalistic subjects. This community is largely black hatted men and more modern knitted kippah wearers, so I've assumed they're mainly Hassidim, with a smattering of Modern Orthodox.

Yeah it's easy to mistake one ultra orthodox for another without a trained eye and some yiddish. :cool:


I know Karaites and Samaritans have very different beliefs but I don't think I've ever come across any in the UK. They're mostly in Israel, aren't they?

Few Samaritans are left, maybe 600 or so, around mt Shechem near the orthodox community of Har Brakha and a little in Holon I hear. They will be smashed to bits as the other minorities if Israel leaves Samaria. They are all citizens of Israel if they want it that is (some dont most do). The Karaites, I think most are from Egypt and do now live in Israel (mostly in Ashkelon and Ashdod I think) pretty much since Nasser threw them out along with the other Jews. The northern sect from Ukraine and Lithuania are all over the place, some in Israel and some in France, UK, US and Canada. I've met a few, actually I had an aquaintence that sat next to me in a Tanach class in college. It was a surprise to find out he was a Karaite... the jokes ensued of course :cool:.

[Sharona]

With the new age speaking of us being planted by aliens. With the muz taking about the impending doom and Armaghedon. With western christian views ( I don't know how else to put this ) speaking of the tribulation and antichrist. It is fairly simple to see that from many views and beliefs the world is readying for some sort of huge event.

I am surprised that many here haven't explored the book of the revelation. It explains, in detail, exactly what is happening now in the ME and with Israel... .

Hi Toadstool

As mentioned in another thread, I have spent two years researching the enigma that is 2012. Its entire point is that a huge event of some sort is due to occur around that time. However, underlying many of the works and theories is some seething anti-semitism - some of it cloaked in the New Age movement. The works of Alice Bailey who was pretty anti-semitic in my view, have permeated the UN (she was awarded some posthumous prize in 1989), schools in the USA and heaven knows where else. I would strongly urge all Jewish people to read Hannah Newman's 'Rainbow Swastika' to see the extent of the New Age influence and its underlying threats. It's available free, online. Hannah is a pretty Orthodox Jew and so anti all things beyond Torah, but that doesn't detract from her argument because every assertion she makes she also supports with links to the appropriate source. Below is taken from Hannah's opening page.

This phenomenon has triggered a "paradigm shift" that is pregnant with a brand of antisemitism both new and frighteningly familiar. It has carried its seeds throughout our global environment to the point where you will be tempted to disbelieve what you are reading. That's fine -- be skeptical; check it out for yourself. Everything is documented.

The most shocking thing is that this warning has been sounding since 1980. Why haven't the Jews heard about it before? Because the warning was coming from Christians, and we Jews don't pay attention to anything that might contain a possible proselytizing message. So we've missed it.

She makes reference to the 'Ascended Masters' - a group of spirits said to be leading the world from the etheric planes. This might sound crazy to many but it becomes a little more newsworthy when you learn that one particular man, Benjamin Creme, who is supposedly involved with these AM's, claims that the Maitreya (a Messiah of sorts) is already here and appearing to groups of people around the world. OK, still sounding a little loopy? The Maitreya has apparently had audiences with the UN. A Google search for Bejamin Creme will probably expand on this.

The 'Rainbow Swastika' is not about a lunatic fringe group - you will be surprised at how far this stuff has permeated global institutions. If it is written into the 'Goals 2000' school program, it would seem Hannah is on the ball.


With regard to Revelations - because it has a place in the research I've been doing I've tried to read it but it's incredibly difficult to understand, given that so much of it is written symbolically. Is there an easy-to-understand version anywhere:scratch:

[Toadstool46]

Sharona: There are many books on this confusing Bible scripture... I beleive you can get a fairly good idea crunching through it yourself but these links may help.

Jack Van Impe it a little esentric but very well studied in this imprortant book of the bible.. Remember The revelation of Christ is the only book with a pointed blessing to the person who reads it.

Hope this helps. We are living at the doorstep of these events. Get ready for the ride of history.

http://www.discoverrevelation.com/Rev_Links.html

http://www.thercg.org/books/real.html

http://www.jvim.com/

[Sharona]

Remember The revelation of Christ is the only book with a pointed blessing to the person who reads it.



Sorry - I don't really understand what this means.:)

By the way, I forgot to add that the New Age movement as discussed in Hannah's book speaks of 'benevolent correction' in respect of religious beliefs- but I forgot to mention that this 'correction' is applicable to Jews and Christians alike. Oddly, there is no mention of any other religion designated for 'correction'.

[Toadstool46]

Sorry - I don't really understand what this means.:)



Sharona: It just means that no other book in the Bible states that you will be blessed for reading it specifically. Revelations states exactly that.

Just like the comandment "Honour your father and your mother " has the blessing attched that says "that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee."

[deut_20-21]

Well, speaking as one of those evangelicals...

Israel is making a serious mistake, 'you' (Israel,) should rely on the promises that G_d has made, and in this context I am referring to Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21.

Harsh? Yes, I suppose so.

But effective? Beyond all doubt. And notice, Israel would not need UN approval, for no where in these chapters is the United Nations mentioned -- not once. It almost makes me think that our G_d, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob doesn't consider the UN relevant. (I wonder if he might have something there!)

I am an American. I am a Jew who used to be an atheist, but when I was young, I became a Christian. And I can tell you that the God of the Bible does indeed rush to help, to answer prayers. Sometime read the first 30 or 40 chapters of Psalms and see how many times God promises to help righteous, no matter the odds or the degree of difficulty -- and on two occasions, I was the recipient of such help too.

But to get help from God, we have to ask!!

Again, God has indeed provided counsel as to how to manage the problems that exist today in the Gaza strip.

And what did he say? Read what he said in Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21. And to keep this in context, read the prior and succeeding five or ten chapters, too.

One thing; Do not come to me and complain that this is inhumane. First, God said this and his Word is always right and without stain or defect of any kind. Second, he would not have said this if he didn't think Israel would someday need to apply it.

I welcome responses and realize that I will get a few notes from people who don't like the fact that I've become a Christian, but I caution you -- if you contact me via email, recognize that in any discussion, both sides need to have an open mind.

[Madeline]

Well, speaking as one of those evangelicals...

Israel is making a serious mistake, 'you' (Israel,) should rely on the promises that G_d has made, and in this context I am referring to Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21.

Harsh? Yes, I suppose so.

But effective? Beyond all doubt. And notice, Israel would not need UN approval, for no where in these chapters is the United Nations mentioned -- not once. It almost makes me think that our G_d, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob doesn't consider the UN relevant. (I wonder if he might have something there!)

I am an American. I am a Jew who used to be an atheist, but when I was young, I became a Christian. And I can tell you that the God of the Bible does indeed rush to help, to answer prayers. Sometime read the first 30 or 40 chapters of Psalms and see how many times God promises to help righteous, no matter the odds or the degree of difficulty -- and on two occasions, I was the recipient of such help too.

But to get help from God, we have to ask!!

Again, God has indeed provided counsel as to how to manage the problems that exist today in the Gaza strip.

And what did he say? Read what he said in Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21. And to keep this in context, read the prior and succeeding five or ten chapters, too.

One thing; Do not come to me and complain that this is inhumane. First, God said this and his Word is always right and without stain or defect of any kind. Second, he would not have said this if he didn't think Israel would someday need to apply it.

I welcome responses and realize that I will get a few notes from people who don't like the fact that I've become a Christian, but I caution you -- if you contact me via email, recognize that in any discussion, both sides need to have an open mind.
In all of this, let's not forget that we are praying to the SAME God, and He is the ultimate Judge.
He loves us all.

[deut_20-21]

To Madeline:

Yes!, Isn't that true. Of course the Christian God and the God of Israel is the same. (Not so the Muslim thing -- I've never read the Muslim books but apparently they teach that their god is the father of deception; No doubt.)



But this is about America and Israel.

I know that Israel is a small country and has nothing like the resources of say, the US.

One thing that Israel needs to keep in mind is that the US will soon dramatically reduce it's links to Israel, in fact even today, Iran and America are discussing what the US must do to normalize relations with Iran. (Now would be a good time to google "Munich Appeasement".)

About US Christians...

I am going to make my point about Evangelicals this way. Look at the recent economic problems the US has had. First we saw lot's of mortgage defaults, then we saw the banks fail, and after that, several stock-market segments tanked. And now the malaise has spread further, of course.

(And Madeline, God promises to bless those that bless Israel, and to curse those that curse Israel -- but didn't you just say that!)

My point about the US economy? Most American's had no idea that our nation's wealth was being stressed and reduced, it wasn't obvious at all; and thus, for most American's these events came as a sudden shock.

Now, about Christian support of Israel...

Christians, real Christians, still support Israel; Even more than we used to! The problem is that America is losing it's faith in God. We are seeing a nation turn away from God and thus, God is turning away from us.

The people who live in America and classify themselves as serious Christians still support Israel, but the numbers of these people is reduced and the more casual Christian believers find it inconvenient to be a Christian in a culture that pretends that homosexuality is normal and that a woman has a 'right' to an abortion.

In short the cost of being a Christian is increasing. And some American's have decided that the cost is too high.

So, when the Obama folks decide that Israel is nice but support for Israel is uncomfortable or even just inconvenient, Israel will lose it's access to energy and munitions.

I've done some simulations (computer based simulations,) about what this might mean in another mid-east conflict and I think we'd see much higher Arab/Palestinian or Persian death tolls, not lower -- for example, in a future conflict Israel might not have access to US supplied GPS smart bombs but they can make their own fuel-air bombs (I think they already have these, anyway.)

Still, my main point is that I believe that the US will cutoff aid to Israel within the next four years. (And I am hoping that some smart fellow in the IDF has already thought about what to do in this scenario.)

But didn't God say that he would bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel? Hello? Is anyone listening! (In the Obama administration.)

Unfortunately, I think we're going to see this administration learn this simple truth first-hand. And while Bush made some mistakes, at least he knew this stuff!

[Aviva]

Well, speaking as one of those evangelicals...

Israel is making a serious mistake, 'you' (Israel,) should rely on the promises that G_d has made, and in this context I am referring to Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21.

Firstly, if you're Jewish, then the Biblical Israel is YOU too, irrelevant of if you've decided to follow other gods or be an atheist.


One thing; Do not come to me and complain that this is inhumane.

Secondly, Israel isn't governed by religious extremists and nut-jobs who act on literal translations of the Torah. There's a good example of this in what you've quoted; The Rebellious Son in Deut: 21.18 which is about stoning to death badly behaved kids. The discussion in and wisdom of the other Jewish writings, (ie: the Talmud, Mishnah, etc) makes this more or less impossible, as it's basically immoral. It's meant to be understood symbolically, not literally. That's what's Christians don't comprehend when they read it in literal translation.

[Madeline]

To Madeline:

Yes!, Isn't that true. Of course the Christian God and the God of Israel is the same. (Not so the Muslim thing -- I've never read the Muslim books but apparently they teach that their god is the father of deception; No doubt.)



But this is about America and Israel.

I know that Israel is a small country and has nothing like the resources of say, the US.

One thing that Israel needs to keep in mind is that the US will soon dramatically reduce it's links to Israel, in fact even today, Iran and America are discussing what the US must do to normalize relations with Iran. (Now would be a good time to google "Munich Appeasement".)

About US Christians...

I am going to make my point about Evangelicals this way. Look at the recent economic problems the US has had. First we saw lot's of mortgage defaults, then we saw the banks fail, and after that, several stock-market segments tanked. And now the malaise has spread further, of course.

(And Madeline, God promises to bless those that bless Israel, and to curse those that curse Israel -- but didn't you just say that!)

My point about the US economy? Most American's had no idea that our nation's wealth was being stressed and reduced, it wasn't obvious at all; and thus, for most American's these events came as a sudden shock.

Now, about Christian support of Israel...

Christians, real Christians, still support Israel; Even more than we used to! The problem is that America is losing it's faith in God. We are seeing a nation turn away from God and thus, God is turning away from us.

The people who live in America and classify themselves as serious Christians still support Israel, but the numbers of these people is reduced and the more casual Christian believers find it inconvenient to be a Christian in a culture that pretends that homosexuality is normal and that a woman has a 'right' to an abortion.

In short the cost of being a Christian is increasing. And some American's have decided that the cost is too high.

So, when the Obama folks decide that Israel is nice but support for Israel is uncomfortable or even just inconvenient, Israel will lose it's access to energy and munitions.

I've done some simulations (computer based simulations,) about what this might mean in another mid-east conflict and I think we'd see much higher Arab/Palestinian or Persian death tolls, not lower -- for example, in a future conflict Israel might not have access to US supplied GPS smart bombs but they can make their own fuel-air bombs (I think they already have these, anyway.)

Still, my main point is that I believe that the US will cutoff aid to Israel within the next four years. (And I am hoping that some smart fellow in the IDF has already thought about what to do in this scenario.)

But didn't God say that he would bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel? Hello? Is anyone listening! (In the Obama administration.)

Unfortunately, I think we're going to see this administration learn this simple truth first-hand. And while Bush made some mistakes, at least he knew this stuff!
I wonder if you mean true Bible believing Christian, when you write serious Christian?
So then, if you are a Bible believing Christian, you must believe in 2 Chronicles 7:14 as the way out of our world wide debacle?

[deut_20-21]

No,

Of course you are right when you say that not everything written is intended literally. For example, in Psalms on occasion an author will say something that is more a literary device than the actual truth.

I want you to realize that yes, in some ways, -- look at the dialog between Job and God, -- yes, literary devices do exist in the text.

But!!, about the remarks in Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21, you are badly mistaken. Read it if you haven't, please. Because it is clear that this is simply normal advice, as a Father might give a son about how to handle a would-be bully.

And by the way, your position will lead you to utter foolishness. Because once you start monkeying around with accepting one part of the Bible and not another, where do you stop??

It's like those people who don't accept the premise of a literal Adam and Eve? For if those two were not actually living people, then I ask you:

When did God start telling the truth? At which point in the Bible does he stop fibbing?

Of course God never fibs!! And His word is completely reliable.

And one problem with Israel today is that it is trying too hard to be agreeable, to be "one of the guys". It needs to recognize that Israel is special today, that it will always be special, and that it doesn't need to cow-tow to the UN (or anyone else.)

This is not to say that Israel should be aloof -- for example, these days Egypt is making a real effort to be a good neighbor, and I notice that Israel is responding well, too.

But to aggression, Israel should not be taking advice from the United States. Israel should deal with Iran and then, if the US has any sense at all, it will say "thank you" and "please be our friend."

This is no longer about Christian Evangelical's -- but I can't change the area this is published in. Can a moderator do this for me, please.

(And if so, please send me a link so I'll be able to find it.)

Thank you.

[deut_20-21]

Madeline:

Oh yes -- thank you for that reference to 2 Chronicles, 7:14.

I fear that the US will never do this. Of course I don't know, but as I look around, I don't see it happening. Not that my vision in such things is particularly acute.

[deut_20-21]

And Aviva:

The covenant that God and Abraham agreed on has a two part definition as to who is Jewish:

First mentioned is faith in God.

And second, being Jewish is based on blood.

For now, I am only going to discuss the first requirement for a Jew, faith!

I submit that a leader of Jews who doesn't exhibit faith in what God has written isn't much of a leader.

And in your response please be polite -- I notice that your remarks to me included statements that were probably intended very negatively. Really, stick to the point, please. Otherwise a forum quickly degenerates into name calling and bias.

If I said something that offended you, then please tell me what it was -- and we can discuss it. But if you don't happen to agree with my position, then refute the position.

Okay?

[Mil]

By Deout:

I've done some simulations (computer based simulations,) about what this might mean in another mid-east conflict and I think we'd see much higher Arab/Palestinian or Persian death tolls, not lower -- for example, in a future conflict Israel might not have access to US supplied GPS smart bombs but they can make their own fuel-air bombs (I think they already have these, anyway.)

I also like playing "Call to Duty" and kill a few Germans on the way.

[deut_20-21]

Hello Mil:

Let me state with as much precision as I can muster that we are living in a world that is headed into real trouble!

I was serious when I mentioned that it would be appropriate to google the two words "Munich Appeasement", because American state department personnel are in Iran negotiating. And what are they negotiating? Well, I only have access to public news sources, but apparently, we're trying (the US,) to find out what Iran requires.

And any accommodation is:

a) going to be made at Israel's expense, and

b) going to be short lived. I say this because so far, the Iranian leader (Amad...,) has been a duplicate of Hitler. And Hitler had an insatiable appetite.

[Mil]

Posted by deut:

was serious when I mentioned that it would be appropriate to google the two words "Munich Appeasement"

Which one are you referring to? One attended by Chamberlain or Molotov?

Myself a computer-man I am more interested in the computer simulations you've been working on.

[bararallu]

For now, I am only going to discuss the first requirement for a Jew, faith!


"Faith" as in the foundation for Salvation, is extra Jewish, as in not part of Judaism but rather Christianity. Judaism is practice religion, it's not inherently metaphysical like Christianity is. It is based 100% in acts not beliefs. Even the variety of covenants undertaken or affirmed, brit, bar mitsvah, by a Jew do not wonder into the theological and esoteric belief states.

[deut_20-21]

Well, we disagree.

First, looking at what we know about Abraham -- and in fact several of the Prophets and Patriarch's, I see an example of lives filled with a vibrant faith.

Do you think Abraham would have gone after Lot if he was a faithless creature?

Or Moses? How much faith did Moses demonstrate when he confronted Phareoh? My guess is he was trembling and might even have written his life off, but remembered what he had heard of the Hebrew God, of the life of Abraham, that he and Sara and had their own confrontation with another Egyptian ruler, and lived to tell their story.

And Jacob -- isn't he the very example of a man deficient in every way, who God took and worked with, building him and changing him and increasing his faith. I remember that Jacob was willing to meet his brother -- don't you think that took a great deal of faith?

Think about it... Esau was the progenitor of today's Hamas, but Jacob had no IDF forces, he had no US supplied GPS targeting smart bombs, yet he marched towards his brother anyway.

These men were all Jews (not Esau!, of course) and they are each Hebrew heros. So your remark that the Jewish religion isn't based on faith -- well, I don't agree.

And what did Abraham and God decide made a Jew?

Faith and blood. (I'll leave what 'blood' means for another time.) But look it up Mr. "Bararallu". See what the author of Genesis said about who was Jewish.

First and foremost, it's faith.

[Brody15]

Why haven't they marched to show their support for Israel? There are over 75 million + who are pro-Israel in this country alone. They usually reside in the south. Where have they been?


I wouldn't be surprised if the media just isn't covering it. I haven't seen any coverage of any support for Israel. Sad.

[deut_20-21]

To Mil --

First of all my complex of exceedingly fast x86 blades with several terabytes of storage consistently predicted that Hillary Clinton was going to win the Democratic nomination for President.

As I recall it didn't quite turn out that way...

So my computer program's are like me, they are wrong some times.

I have a small research business, much of my focus relates to simple financial predictions such as the next day price of stocks (the OPEN, HIGH, LOW, and CLOSE'ing prices.)

I'm not sure what is appropriate here. Can you send me an email -- I don't want to discuss this stuff publicly, it's off-topic.

But please, if you want to discuss such stuff, let's go to private email. (I assume the website owner/operator will give you my email.)

PS: It's okay.

[deut_20-21]

To Brody15 --

Because American Christians are being decimated (I tried, poorly, to say this in an earlier post. Let me give it another shot.)

Just as the loss of America's wealth wasn't obvious for some time, American Christians are living in a country in which the cost of being a Christian has risen substantially.

Obama's first act (apparently,) a few hours after being sworn in was to have the Whitehouse.gov website updated. The changes state that he would target a new category of discrimination.

Well, like most Christians (and I hope!, most Jews,) I recall God's warnings against gay's in Leviticus and anything condemned by God is not deserving of protected status. Yet, here we are...

It may not be obvious to non-Christians, but the US is now undergoing a great falling away; People see that being a Christian is no longer culturally acceptable and also, some Christians are walking away from faith.

I submit that this is why Israel isn't seeing a great overflowing of support from America, and I expect these changes to produce a change in American policy, I don't think America will long continue to support Israel.

That's why I did my war simulations -- I wanted to make sure that Israel still has an easy win. (As I say, it looks to me that the number of enemy deaths increases in such circumstances.)

I am trying to obtain data now so that I can examine what happens in an Iranian conflict.

[Brody15]

To Brody15 --

Because American Christians are being decimated (I tried, poorly, to say this in an earlier post. Let me give it another shot.)

Just as the loss of America's wealth wasn't obvious for some time, American Christians are living in a country in which the cost of being a Christian has risen substantially.

Obama's first act (apparently,) a few hours after being sworn in was to have the Whitehouse.gov website updated. The changes state that he would target a new category of discrimination.

Well, like most Christians (and I hope!, most Jews,) I recall God's warnings against gay's in Leviticus and anything condemned by God is not deserving of protected status. Yet, here we are...

It may not be obvious to non-Christians, but the US is now undergoing a great falling away; People see that being a Christian is no longer culturally acceptable and also, some Christians are walking away from faith.

I submit that this is why Israel isn't seeing a great overflowing of support from America, and I expect these changes to produce a change in American policy, I don't think America will long continue to support Israel.

That's why I did my war simulations -- I wanted to make sure that Israel still has an easy win. (As I say, it looks to me that the number of enemy deaths increases in such circumstances.)

I am trying to obtain data now so that I can examine what happens in an Iranian conflict.

I could completely understand that it's harder for people to be Christian in this country. I'm one of those who believe there is an attack on Christianity from the secular lefties.

I don't see America altering their relationship with Israel. Things might change a bit, and Obama will play the appeasment card, but we're not gonna break off relations.

Or are you saying this is all leading to the apocolypse?

Oh, I thought I'd throw this in about Jew and faith...one way it has been described to me, and I get this...Jews would want a world where no one ever has to depend on faith in G-d, we should be able to look anywhere and see G-d's light, through acts, we can create such a world. Yjere isn't much about simply believing in something. Like Abraham did the things he did because he was commanded to. Moses stood up to Pharoah because G-d commanded him to. It's a concept that's always fascinated me about Judaism.

[Aviva]

No,

But!!, about the remarks in Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21, you are badly mistaken. Read it if you haven't, please. Because it is clear that this is simply normal advice, as a Father might give a son about how to handle a would-be bully.

And by the way, your position will lead you to utter foolishness. Because once you start monkeying around with accepting one part of the Bible and not another, where do you stop??

In order to understand what the Torah, refer to Jewish sources in Hebrew, otherwise the information is taken out completely out of context. No, I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve or absolute creationism, stoning for homosexuals, etc and people who do could very much be called hard-line extremists.


And Aviva:

The covenant that God and Abraham agreed on has a two part definition as to who is Jewish:

First mentioned is faith in God.

And second, being Jewish is based on blood.

For now, I am only going to discuss the first requirement for a Jew, faith!

This is not true. The definition of a Jew is not based on faith, (except for a convert). A Jew is a person who's mother is a Jew.


And in your response please be polite -- I notice that your remarks to me included statements that were probably intended very negatively. Really, stick to the point, please. Otherwise a forum quickly degenerates into name calling and bias.

My answer was polite; although yours is quite dismissive and respectful to Judaism and Jewish tradition. This is a mainly Jewish forum, (or used to be) but it isn't particularly religious; it's about the modern state of Israel. However, if Christians, especially ones who claim to be Jewish, want to start telling Jews they're wrong about their own Torah, just like Muslims do, then yes, I will have a problem with that attitude.

[Madeline]

I wouldn't be surprised if the media just isn't covering it. I haven't seen any coverage of any support for Israel. Sad.

Cleveland just had a rally, no media coverage. Muslim outrage is more newsworthy. Same in other cities. Why cover some Jews and Christians come together and march peacefully for Israel when you can cover riots elsewhere?

[Toadstool46]

Well, speaking as one of those evangelicals...

Israel is making a serious mistake, 'you' (Israel,) should rely on the promises that G_d has made, and in this context I am referring to Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21.

Deut:

It may seem like a mistake however:

All the leaders and powers that be in this world today are doing what they feel is "right" and for the "god" they serve.

These actions are allowed by the on true God and are part of his plan.

All the men and women that are now in power or of influence to the world events are there because God wants them there.

God is in control, his plan is unfolding. Gods ways are not man's ways.

Evil will be conquered. The words of Gods book will be fullfilled.

[deut_20-21]

Well Aviva, whether you believe in stoning homosexuals or not, the author of Genesis did!

And who would that be?

Most authorities credit Moses with writing Genesis, but...

Today if I have to write something, I might use a pen. Or, maybe a computer terminal or a laptop.

No one would read it and say, oh -- "his computer wrote this." No, people will read it and recognize that I wrote it.

It's the same with Genesis. God wrote it. Moses was his laptop.

Let me do a little homework and I'll have more to say wrt your last response, if you like.

[deut_20-21]

Toadstool46:

What? Do you think the leadership of Iran is composed of Godly men? Men who are trying to serve God and be good to their neighbors? (Which includes Israel, BTW! -- while they do not have a common border they are only a one-hour plane ride away.)

My fear is that the leadership of Israel has forgotten that it's easy to nuke Iran today, to eliminate all possibility of their using nuclear weapons against Israel, but that once they are able to field a weapon, then, it's going to be a whole lot harder to locate it sufficiently precisely to prevent a response.

And remember, Mr. Toad-Stool-46, (what does that moniker mean?,) Israel would have been content to never considered nuking Iran, but all they have done for years now is to develop the means to assemble a bomb. And while Israel has had nukes for about fifty years and never used one in anger, do you actually imagine that Iran will have one for fifty weeks and not use it? Or even 50 days? Because I don't think Iran is what we'd call "a good neighbor."

They have (I think this is the right number,) 5000 centrifuges running 24X7.

America had less than 200 (I don't know the number, but it was something like this,) less than 200 to build the 20k-ton Hiroshima weapon.

And what does Israel do? Israel has taken the advice of the US and not attacked Iran's nuke facilities.

But look at the Kurds, in fact look at most of the promises the US has made to it's strategic partners, we simply don't have a great track record.

And am I the only one here who sees the parallel's to the appeasement plan worked out in Munich?

[Mosche]

Do you think Abraham would have gone after Lot if he was a faithless creature?

Abraham went after Lot because he was visited by (i.e. he witnessed) angels--not really a faith thing. To speak of something that one witnesses is to speak of empirical understanding; not "faith" in the metaphysical sense that you seem to suggest. Thus, if one talks of "faith" in the instance of Abraham, one is speaking of his willingness to obey G-d's command to "go get Lot"; not his obeyance of a metaphysical being.


Or Moses? How much faith did Moses demonstrate when he confronted Phareoh?

Moses spoke directly to G-d. No metaphysical faith there! Moses--reluctantly I might add--obeyed G-d's command to be the leader of the Hebrew people after speaking DIRECTLY TO G-D.


And Jacob -- isn't he the very example of a man deficient in every way, who God took and worked with, building him and changing him and increasing his faith. I remember that Jacob was willing to meet his brother -- don't you think that took a great deal of faith?

Jacob, with the help of his mother, stole the birthrite. Sounds to me like Jacob took practical action to get what he wanted. If Jacob had a metaphysical faith in G-d, he would have waited for Esau to be struck down; then he would have received the birthrite in the cultural manner that was normal.


So your remark that the Jewish religion isn't based on faith -- well, I don't agree.

Faith? Yes! But their faith was to obey the commands that were given to the Hebrew people--even in times of great difficulty.


And what did Abraham and God decide made a Jew?

Faith and blood. (I'll leave what 'blood' means for another time.) But look it up Mr. "Bararallu". See what the author of Genesis said about who was Jewish.

First and foremost, it's faith.

This I will grant, but the definition of "faith" is still the issue.

[bararallu]

There is no Judaic equivalence of what is understood as "Faith", "Sin", "Salvation" in Christianity. In any Judaism, from the most orthodox to the most Liberal (certainty). That is why there is a Christianity, and it is separate and distinct from Judaism. There is a fundamental difference in interpreting not only the nature of man, God, but also of what is written in the Tanach. From a Jewish perspective, this is not really a problem, unless Jews start to die, or be prosecuted. Which has all too often happened. Judaism accepts that there are other ways to interpret the Universe.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=deut_20-21;288634]



Abraham went after Lot because he was visited by (i.e. he witnessed) angels--not really a faith thing. To speak of something that one witnesses is to speak of empirical understanding; not "faith" in the metaphysical sense that you seem to suggest. Thus, if one talks of "faith" in the instance of Abraham, one is speaking of his willingness to obey G-d's command to "go get Lot"; not his obeyance of a metaphysical being.



Moses spoke directly to G-d. No metaphysical faith there! Moses--reluctantly I might add--obeyed G-d's command to be the leader of the Hebrew people after speaking DIRECTLY TO G-D.



Jacob, with the help of his mother, stole the birthrite. Sounds to me like Jacob took practical action to get what he wanted. If Jacob had a metaphysical faith in G-d, he would have waited for Esau to be struck down; then he would have received the birthrite in the cultural manner that was normal.



Faith? Yes! But their faith was to obey the commands that were given to the Hebrew people--even in times of great difficulty.

QUOTE]

This I will grant, but the definition of "faith" is still the issue.
Great points, Mosche. I do think though that Moses showed a lot of Faith, wandering around in the desert for all those years. Just listening to God, even though He promised him directly may have not been enough to keep on for that long.
It is written. Who are we to know what it all means? That is what makes us people, and God, well, Almighty.

[Mosche]

[QUOTE=Mosche;288692]
It is written. Who are we to know what it all means? That is what makes us people, and God, well, Almighty.

Hey now! Are you saying that I'm a mere mortal? NOT POSSIBLE! My friends have told me many times that I'm "a know it all!" That is a good thing...right?

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=Madeline;288704]

Hey now! Are you saying that I'm a mere mortal? NOT POSSIBLE! My friends have told me many times that I'm "a know it all!" That is a good thing...right?
You're a keeper, whatever you call yourself.:lol:

[Y. Shulamith]

Come now....there are many things in the bible which were "advanced thinking" for their time, but for now, are antiquated and way out of date. You cannot live, today, exactly as a "fundamentalist" because society, as such prohibits a lot of what is said. Much of what the Jewish bible says is a rule of behavior that made sense in it's day, but not today. I take offense at non-Jews telling Jews what the Jewish Bible means because, it means different things to different people, in general and no one who has denounced their Jewish faith is going to tell me anything about religion that would, in anyway, be of any value, in my humble opinion. There are plenty enough of Jewish sages around, if I were to have any questions, that would be happy enough and qualified to give their opinions about whatever.

I take offense at anyone trying to convert Jews and I am incensed at seeing it here.

[Toadstool46]

Toadstool46:

What? Do you think the leadership of Iran is composed of Godly men? Men who are trying to serve God and be good to their neighbors?

Absolutely not.

The point of my post was that no matter what we as humans think.. everything is going as God planned. Every political speech, every rocket launch, every response, every scandle uncovered, every tunnel dug and destroyed.

God has used many many ungodly nations for his tools. You seem to know scripture so you should know this.

All I am saying is that God is in control and what looks like a mistake is necessary for God to set up and carry out the workings of his plans.

God is setting up the biggest domino board of all time.. then one day he will let em go...

[bararallu]

I take offense at anyone trying to convert Jews and I am incensed at seeing it here.

I really don't think anyone is trying to convert Jews here.

Generally (not vis-a-vis your post Shulamith),

What we have here is a case of projection, nothing more. People, Jews included, sometimes think everyone reasons exactly the same way, based on the same *fundamental assumptions*. It's very hard to get out of ones own shoes and into someone else's, whose way of thinking is fairly different (not necessarily adversarial, just different). We have different religions, most Christians and Jews readily admit this, and different religions have different fundametal assumptions. Not all different, but a lot. And yes there are synergies, based on ethics, on culture, on politics and on personal respect, and they go beyond the scope of staid "Interfaith" dialog.

Christians are not prosecuting Jews. Most Evangelicals, are critical of Christian sects that have done so. Lets keep the big picture in focus. If there is a misunderstanding then we need to go to the fundamentals and see where the differences lie. I posted up top specifically to point out that deut_20-21 was looking at the situation strictly in a Christian way, since the formulation of "Faith" is not ecumenical with the Jews, and never has been. It is not a driver of history from the Jewish perspective, where adherence to mitsvot , or at least their extrapolations are. We have our own way of reconciling belief and practice, most Christians do not know enough about Judaism to understand that. Vice versa btw. Thats really no ones fault.

[deut_20-21]

Mosche:

Well!! How do I say "You're right!" In fact you said each of these things much better than I had.

These men were the way they were, people that God was willing to talk to, to spend time with, to befriend, because of who they were; (I believe these men exhibited great faith in God.) But you make my points for me.

For example -- Jacob -- he didn't have much (if any,) of what we call "faith" when he and his Mom stole Esau's birthrite, (though remember his Mother had been given a head's up years prior -- she clearly didn't have faith because, just as you say, had she, she would have waited for God to remove Esau from the picture. Didn't happen.)

[You said almost exactly the same thing -- and you said it first, too.]

BTW: My guess is that Isaac's household was what we'd call a tad dysfunctional. Not that this stopped God or limited him, in fact, he seems to have made use of these limitations.

And Jacob? No, he didn't have faith as a young man living with his parents. But later? I think God cultivated faith in him. In fact I think this is the point of his life, that God takes imperfect people and, if we're willing, works to rebuild us into people he can use and not be ashamed of.

I got started here (ie., why I joined this group,) because I see what is happening now wrt the mid-east, with particularity to Israel and Iran ("south Asia",) and am worried that we are looking at the makings of a real calamity for Israel.

Because I see the US changing -- in a way that makes the US useless as Israel's security partner.

(We only realized that the US's wealth was diminishing after the fact, and I fear that our country has lost it's Christian base, which has put the Obama crowd in Washington.)

Israel needs a security partner (assuming that it needs a security partner at all -- I don't think it does;) that is reliable. And not one that reneges on support in a critical time. But now, because American troops are next-door, in Iraq, the US has been pleading with Israel not to attack Iran.

(I'd like to see some coordination here, but to me this looks like the Chamberlain's brain and backbone have been scientifically preserved and are now the basis of our State Department's decision making.) Or at least this administration's.

I just don't see men of faith in the Obama administration -- in fact, the Obama administration is supporting issues and ideas that God has strenuously objected to. (Such as equal rights for homosexuals, for God's position is that such people must be stoned by the society in which they life -- and not killed as a mob might kill someone, but by a society with laws prohibiting such things, and only after a fair trial with witness's.)

In fact as I look as the US, I see God doing as he did on several occasions with Israel, he gave the nation the ruler they wanted -- on occasion these rulers were corrupt and evil, and he allowed people to see the fruit of disobedience.

As for the US, I notice that God is able to weave events together -- and I understand that Obama's grasp on the Presidency remains uncertain, that the US Supreme court is examining two cases now, and an unfavorable ruling in either case would unseat him.

Obviously I don't know this, but I am guessing that these cases will drag on for some time.

So, wrt the US, I think a lot depends on us. On how we deal with our problems -- and yes, on our support (or lack of support,) for Israel. Because it's still true, that God will deal with us in accord with our dealings with Israel (boy!, is that a paraphrase. None the less, I think that's true.)

Mosche, I'd like to know what you think...

--jg

[Madeline]

I really don't think anyone is trying to convert Jews here.

Generally (not vis-a-vis your post Shulamith),

What we have here is a case of projection, nothing more. People, Jews included, sometimes think everyone reasons exactly the same way, based on the same *fundamental assumptions*. It's very hard to get out of ones own shoes and into someone else's, whose way of thinking is fairly different (not necessarily adversarial, just different). We have different religions, most Christians and Jews readily admit this, and different religions have different fundametal assumptions. Not all different, but a lot. And yes there are synergies, based on ethics, on culture, on politics and on personal respect, and they go beyond the scope of staid "Interfaith" dialog.

Christians are not prosecuting Jews. Most Evangelicals, are critical of Christian sects that have done so. Lets keep the big picture in focus. If there is a misunderstanding then we need to go to the fundamentals and see where the differences lie. I posted up top specifically to point out that deut_20-21 was looking at the situation strictly in a Christian way, since the formulation of "Faith" is not ecumenical with the Jews, and never has been. It is not a driver of history from the Jewish perspective, where adherence to mitsvot , or at least their extrapolations are. We have our own way of reconciling belief and practice, most Christians do not know enough about Judaism to understand that. Vice versa btw. Thats really no ones fault.
Yes.

[Y. Shulamith]

All people of the "faith" that are goyim see Jews as people who are just ripe for the proselytizing picking.......I've known lots of these folks and they try to chip away at Jews in anyway they can, poke, jajole, guilt trip, you name it, they try every trick in the book to look like "they" are the authorities of what Jews and the Hebrew nation wrote down through the ages, and not what Pagan converts the world over, they in actuality are....would have history believe.

If Christianity has brought such lovely behavior upon these people's, I can hardly imagine what pagans would have become, had they not become "Christianized" over the ages.

It's sad, actually.

[Mosche]

Mosche:

[QUOTE]For example -- Jacob -- he didn't have much (if any,) of what we call "faith" when he and his Mom stole Esau's birthrite, (though remember his Mother had been given a head's up years prior -- she clearly didn't have faith because, just as you say, had she, she would have waited for God to remove Esau from the picture. Didn't happen.)

[You said almost exactly the same thing -- and you said it first, too.]

Not sure that we are on the same page here--maybe I'm wrong? My argument was that the men you mentioned were more concerned with an empirical understanding of G-d; not a metaphysical understanding. When Jacob--and Rebekah--didn't get what they wanted, they took empirical action. Thus, they are not solid examples of metaphysical faith (neither are they great examples obeying G-d's commands).


BTW: My guess is that Isaac's household was what we'd call a tad dysfunctional.

A tad!;)


And Jacob? No, he didn't have faith as a young man living with his parents. But later? I think God cultivated faith in him. In fact I think this is the point of his life, that God takes imperfect people and, if we're willing, works to rebuild us into people he can use and not be ashamed of.

This, I think, is where Bararallu's point is valid: How exactly does G-d do that? Jews, Christians, and others would disagree--at least a little--on this point.


I got started here (ie., why I joined this group,) because I see what is happening now wrt the mid-east, with particularity to Israel and Iran ("south Asia",) and am worried that we are looking at the makings of a real calamity for Israel.

By the way, "Welcome to the forum!"


Because I see the US changing -- in a way that makes the US useless as Israel's security partner.

If scripture is to be believed, the U.S. needs Israel more than Israel needs the U.S..


(We only realized that the US's wealth was diminishing after the fact, and I fear that our country has lost it's Christian base, which has put the Obama crowd in Washington.)

This quote is, to me, a bit disturbing. It assumes that we are a Christian nation. I am a Jew: what does that mean for me? I was born here--does that mean that I am less American? I know that you mean no disrespect--I was raised in Arkansas, and I've heard this said many, many times; I hope that you can understand, however, how such a statement can be off-putting.


Israel needs a security partner (assuming that it needs a security partner at all -- I don't think it does;) that is reliable. And not one that reneges on support in a critical time. But now, because American troops are next-door, in Iraq, the US has been pleading with Israel not to attack Iran.

I'd like to see some coordination here, but to me this looks like the Chamberlain's brain and backbone have been scientifically preserved and are now the basis of our State Department's decision making.) Or at least this administration's.

This is actually a consequence of the Bush administration. I'm no fan of Obama, but give credit where credit is due.


I just don't see men of faith in the Obama administration -- in fact, the Obama administration is supporting issues and ideas that God has strenuously objected to. (Such as equal rights for homosexuals, for God's position is that such people must be stoned by the society in which they life -- and not killed as a mob might kill someone, but by a society with laws prohibiting such things, and only after a fair trial with witness's.)

Sorry, I just can't accept this--as a Jew, as a human, and as an American. I won't bore you with the details, suffice it to say that I am scared of fundamentalism in all forms.


As for the US, I notice that God is able to weave events together -- and I understand that Obama's grasp on the Presidency remains uncertain, that the US Supreme court is examining two cases now, and an unfavorable ruling in either case would unseat him.

Obama is President--there is no way that the Supreme Court will remove him--even if they assume that he was not born in the U.S. (I'm certain he was, the state of Hawaii has verified his claim).

[Madeline]

All people of the "faith" that are goyim see Jews as people who are just ripe for the proselytizing picking.......I've known lots of these folks and they try to chip away at Jews in anyway they can, poke, jajole, guilt trip, you name it, they try every trick in the book to look like "they" are the authorities of what Jews and the Hebrew nation wrote down through the ages, and not what Pagan converts the world over, they in actuality are....would have history believe.

If Christianity has brought such lovely behavior upon these people's, I can hardly imagine what pagans would have become, had they not become "Christianized" over the ages.

It's sad, actually.
Is it not you who is generalizing? Who is they? Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims...? Do you speak for all Jews? The practicing Jews, the seculars, the Jewish born atheists, the orthodox Jews?

[Fall]

[QUOTE=deut_20-21;288725]Mosche:

Obama is President--there is no way that the Supreme Court will remove him--even if they assume that he was not born in the U.S. (I'm certain he was, the state of Hawaii has verified his claim).

McCain was born in a Panama Naval Statopm, i'm pretty mad that neither candidates were born in the "Heartland" of America heh.

[Mosche]

[QUOTE=Mosche;288740]

McCain was born in a Panama Naval Statopm, i'm pretty mad that neither candidates were born in the "Heartland" of America heh.

The heartland is overrated! All that clean air, wide open space, foliage, etc.... It's enought to drive a person to banjo picking!

[Madeline]

Quote:
I just don't see men of faith in the Obama administration -- in fact, the Obama administration is supporting issues and ideas that God has strenuously objected to. (Such as equal rights for homosexuals, for God's position is that such people must be stoned by the society in which they life -- and not killed as a mob might kill someone, but by a society with laws prohibiting such things, and only after a fair trial with witness's.)
Sorry, I just can't accept this--as a Jew, as a human, and as an American. I won't bore you with the details, suffice it to say that I am scared of fundamentalism in all forms.

Do not generalize and speak for all Americans. You are not Judge and Jury, and I must agree with Mosche once again. Extremism in any form is not right. We see what it does to Muslims, how can you condone it here in America?
God gave us free will, and only He is the ultimate Judge.
Y. Shulamith and you are at the opposite end here, and IMHO you are both extreme.
Sorry, no offense.

[bararallu]

All people of the "faith" that are goyim see Jews as people who are just ripe for the proselytizing picking.......I've known lots of these folks and they try to chip away at Jews in anyway they can, poke, jajole, guilt trip, you name it, they try every trick in the book to look like "they" are the authorities of what Jews and the Hebrew nation wrote down through the ages, and not what Pagan converts the world over, they in actuality are....would have history believe.

If Christianity has brought such lovely behavior upon these people's, I can hardly imagine what pagans would have become, had they not become "Christianized" over the ages.

It's sad, actually.

The same can be said of the Maccabees you know. Pretty much all of us Jews are a significant proportion (%) Idumean (and Arab Iturians from the Golan region), by virtue of a full-on forced conversion that was done in the second Temple time by Kings Jonathan, Hyrcanus, Aristobulos and the rest. Herod was half converted Idumean, for instance. We also bought Pagan slaves and converted them to Judaism in the Middle Ages (in "the first contracts" period of European life for the proto-Ashkenazim/Roman Jews). That too is sad, and there is nothing and no one to reconcile with today. We are big, mostly happy (to be unhappy :)) family. The Christians have their own road. Just like not everyone agreed with the Hasmonean conversion, and just as Hasmonean actions were initially grounded in the welfare of Jews, the Christians too have had dissenters over the centuries and more over tried to do what is good for their communities.

This is not to take away the hell on earth that visited Jews many times, due to both the forced witness and the forced conversion policies undertaken by the Byzantines and the RCC (and evictions as well by them and others) but that is not reality for a good while now. Let's not live in the past. We are not perma victims, like some people want us to be. If someone offends us, sure we should respond, but we should also give them the benefit of the doubt, as many of them give us the same.

[Aviva]

I take offense at anyone trying to convert Jews and I am incensed at seeing it here.

I feel the same as you, Y Shulamith. I don't really come to Israel Forum for this kind of discussion so I'll bow out of this thread and let you lot get on with it.

I hope the Christians here appreciate that missionising in any way is against the Rules of the Road. I certainly don't want to hear it here in any of it's guises. In all fairness, this isn't a religion themed forum anyway.

[Sharona]

I just don't see men of faith in the Obama administration -- in fact, the Obama administration is supporting issues and ideas that God has strenuously objected to.

--jg


Do you not find the mix of religion and politics an extremely dangerous one?

Have a look at British history to see the havoc such a mix creates.

From my point of view, the moment a British politician - let alone a Prime Minister - begins to bring G-d into the equation is the moment he should step down from office.

There is a fundamental difference between a nation's religious heritage and a political system which confuses the two.

[Y. Shulamith]

The same can be said of the Maccabees you know. Pretty much all of us Jews are a significant proportion (%) Idumean (and Arab Iturians from the Golan region), by virtue of a full-on forced conversion that was done in the second Temple time by Kings Jonathan, Hyrcanus, Aristobulos and the rest. Herod was half converted Idumean, for instance. We also bought Pagan slaves and converted them to Judaism in the Middle Ages (in "the first contracts" period of European life for the proto-Ashkenazim/Roman Jews). That too is sad, and there is nothing and no one to reconcile with today. We are big, mostly happy (to be unhappy :)) family. The Christians have their own road. Just like not everyone agreed with the Hasmonean conversion, and just as Hasmonean actions were initially grounded in the welfare of Jews, the Christians too have had dissenters over the centuries and more over tried to do what is good for their communities.

This is not to take away the hell on earth that visited Jews many times, due to both the forced witness and the forced conversion policies undertaken by the Byzantines and the RCC (and evictions as well by them and others) but that is not reality for a good while now. Let's not live in the past. We are not perma victims, like some people want us to be. If someone offends us, sure we should respond, but we should also give them the benefit of the doubt, as many of them give us the same.


Well, I had a "girlfriend" take me to Jews for Jesus meeting, unbeknownst to me in high school.....well, I guess my high school days are "ancient history".:lol:

I guess Mormons pester everyone equally, too.:clap:

I remember when I went out with a Catholic guy and his mother found out I wasn't Catholic, but Jewish and she said, serious as a heart-attack, "Well, at least you believe in something!". I'll never forget that!!
:clap:

[ItsMyJewty]

Many Christians don't like to admit that Christianity's based on Judaism - it makes them feel... uneasy and they find it hard to deal with. Hence, concerted efforts to remove the problem - either by conversion or other means. It's sort of like a kid who can't feel grown up till he's got rid of his parents. Sad, really.

[bararallu]

I remember when I went out with a Catholic guy and his mother found out I wasn't Catholic, but Jewish and she said, serious as a heart-attack, "Well, at least you believe in something!"


:clap:

[bararallu]

Many Christians don't like to admit that Christianity's based on Judaism - it makes them feel... uneasy and they find it hard to deal with. Hence, concerted efforts to remove the problem - either by conversion or other means. It's sort of like a kid who can't feel grown up till he's got rid of his parents. Sad, really.

Theologically, I'd say Christianity is more based on Indo-European religion (like mythraism or Zoroastrianism) than it is on ancient (certainly modern) Judaism. And Judaism is itself derivative to a great extent from other semitic religions that preceded it and coexisted with it (Sinaic, Ugaritic etc). Also both religions, fractured and both drifted substantially from their classical origins along the way (e.g., Temple vs Rabbinical Judaism, Kohanut vs Rabbanut authority etc). So I don't think a simple summary can do justice to all parties here. Same with any religion really; it's a big word, and any given reference encompasses a lot of variation, some of it self contentious.

[orangeblossom]

I believe Chrisitans are just sick of the mindless wars. Why protest, when one knows the outcome? Only fools do. And Chrisitans of Middle East know Muslims and Jews sell us. That is reality. In the end, we and our lands are sold for a price.

Now, do be upset by that paragraph. It is reality. Prove me the love.

OK.....Did Isreal make the area safer with Gaza war? No. Did they accomplish anything in the end? NO. Did they defeat Hamas? No. Hamas still exist, therefore, they are better than you according to Arab world. Repetition with Hezbollah.

While Hezbollah enters your areas...they will not fool with the Christians as of yet. They know we will go all out. THey entered Sunnis, and Sunnis never could fight. They went into Druze...they got hit badly...GOD help them in Chrisitan areas.

Oh...do not misunderstand ME....I prefer Israel over other ARAB governments. But, the question is, "Where are the Christians?"

Well, now that you feel the hallowness...perhaps you should understand why?

To be honest...we are watching your wars...on our balconies...having BBQs and laughing with friends. WE ARE enjoying life...in a stupid, suckfull recession. Getting dressed up and heading to clubs till 5am. And, that is where you will find us chrisitans. We are working hard...looking to party hard.

If they enter our areas...then you will see us. And of course..you'll want a piece of it...until you get a better offer.

As for evangelical....what can I say. These ppl been through a lot of crap. And basically, they don't want it anymore.

Until then...good luck. We are with you morally...but just not physically.

[Mosche]

I believe Chrisitans are just sick of the mindless wars. Why protest, when one knows the outcome? Only fools do. And Chrisitans of Middle East know Muslims and Jews sell us. That is reality. In the end, we and our lands are sold for a price.

Now, do be upset by that paragraph. It is reality. Prove me the love.

OK.....Did Isreal make the area safer with Gaza war? No. Did they accomplish anything in the end? NO. Did they defeat Hamas? No. Hamas still exist, therefore, they are better than you according to Arab world. Repetition with Hezbollah.

While Hezbollah enters your areas...they will not fool with the Christians as of yet. They know we will go all out. THey entered Sunnis, and Sunnis never could fight. They went into Druze...they got hit badly...GOD help them in Chrisitan areas.

Oh...do not misunderstand ME....I prefer Israel over other ARAB governments. But, the question is, "Where are the Christians?"

Well, now that you feel the hallowness...perhaps you should understand why?

To be honest...we are watching your wars...on our balconies...having BBQs and laughing with friends. WE ARE enjoying life...in a stupid, suckfull recession. Getting dressed up and heading to clubs till 5am. And, that is where you will find us chrisitans. We are working hard...looking to party hard.

If they enter our areas...then you will see us. And of course..you'll want a piece of it...until you get a better offer.

As for evangelical....what can I say. These ppl been through a lot of crap. And basically, they don't want it anymore.

Until then...good luck. We are with you morally...but just not physically.

What? I mean, WHAT? Did you write one cogent sentence?

[Madeline]

What? I mean, WHAT? Did you write one cogent sentence?

I am glad you answered first, Mosche. I couldn't make heads or tails out of that one. What is that OB smoking?

[Mosche]

I hope the Christians here appreciate that missionising in any way is against the Rules of the Road. I certainly don't want to hear it here in any of it's guises. In all fairness, this isn't a religion themed forum anyway.

While I appreciate your opinion, I do feel that we can have civil discussions with one another witout trying to proselytize--I didn't feel like I was being "recruited". Hmmm, I can't get into he cool nightclubs either!:unsure:

I'm so UNcool!

[Fall]

I'm not sure what that message said, but it was sure fun to read. :)

[Mosche]

I am glad you answered first, Mosche. I couldn't make heads or tails out of that one. What is that OB smoking?

It must have been the really good stuff! I've always wanted to say that.

[orangeblossom]

I am glad you answered first, Mosche. I couldn't make heads or tails out of that one. What is that OB smoking?



Ok dopie! Good reply.

[bararallu]

You guys just don't speak ME well enough, I understand Orangeblossom well. Even though this is thread about Evangelicals and not ALL Christians. :cool: And you know what, we Israelis have sold them out, as has the US and France. But they also sold themselves out too ;), and splintered and immigrated en mass. To understand the balagan that is Israel, one can just look across the border at the balagan called Lebanon. BTW, thats the case for about 4000 years.

[Mosche]

I didn't realize that orangeblossom is from the ME--just assumed (stupid thing to do, I admit it) that since it said USA, he/she is from the USA. I read the word "thug" in another forum, and thought he/she was speaking "street lingo".

Madeline, I'm the dope! Duh!

[bararallu]

Mosche,

Orangeblossom is a Maronite Christian from Lebanon, living in the US I guess. He's here to chide us Israelis on our mistakes, since I think he doesn't want Israel to turn into Lebanon, which is happening slowly everyday. It would be wonderful if the majority of Lebanese where Orangeblossoms, we would collectively be in far better shape in the region. But reality is... as he says it is.

[Yala]

I believe Chrisitans are just sick of the mindless wars. Why protest, when one knows the outcome? Only fools do. And Chrisitans of Middle East know Muslims and Jews sell us. That is reality. In the end, we and our lands are sold for a price.

Now, do be upset by that paragraph. It is reality. Prove me the love.

OK.....Did Isreal make the area safer with Gaza war? No. Did they accomplish anything in the end? NO. Did they defeat Hamas? No. Hamas still exist, therefore, they are better than you according to Arab world. Repetition with Hezbollah.

While Hezbollah enters your areas...they will not fool with the Christians as of yet. They know we will go all out. THey entered Sunnis, and Sunnis never could fight. They went into Druze...they got hit badly...GOD help them in Chrisitan areas.

Oh...do not misunderstand ME....I prefer Israel over other ARAB governments. But, the question is, "Where are the Christians?"

Well, now that you feel the hallowness...perhaps you should understand why?

To be honest...we are watching your wars...on our balconies...having BBQs and laughing with friends. WE ARE enjoying life...in a stupid, suckfull recession. Getting dressed up and heading to clubs till 5am. And, that is where you will find us chrisitans. We are working hard...looking to party hard.

If they enter our areas...then you will see us. And of course..you'll want a piece of it...until you get a better offer.

As for evangelical....what can I say. These ppl been through a lot of crap. And basically, they don't want it anymore.

Until then...good luck. We are with you morally...but just not physically.

Hi OB. You misunderstood me. I didn't ask where were the Christian Maronites. I asked where were the Evangelicals, who live in the US.

Christians already lost and gave up on Lebanon. Most of the Christians live in the diaspora. As for Lebanon, if Hezbollah enter your areas there's not much you can do and you're wrong Israel won't have anything to do with it.

[Yala]

Mosche,

Orangeblossom is a Maronite Christian from Lebanon, living in the US I guess. He's here to chide us Israelis on our mistakes, since I think he doesn't want Israel to turn into Lebanon, which is happening slowly everyday. It would be wonderful if the majority of Lebanese where Orangeblossoms, we would collectively be in far better shape in the region. But reality is... as he says it is.


Well Lebanese Christians made their own mistakes and they don't feel like fighting for Lebanon. What they want the Jews to do about it? Israelis could just not save Lebanon, you don't think they tried??? The Christians have lost, most left and the ones who stayed have accepted their semi dhimmi status.

[Madeline]

Well Lebanese Christians made their own mistakes and they don't feel like fighting for Lebanon. What they want the Jews to do about it? Israelis could just not save Lebanon, you don't think they tried??? The Christians have lost, most left and the ones who stayed have accepted their semi dhimmi status.
The same thing happens in the US today. Gabriel speaks expensively of this. I attended her lectures, very interesting.
Sorry, OB, I really did not understand what you were trying to convey.:scratch:Another cup of coffee, and a new day with rested neurons should do the trick.
:lol:and you better not be smoking anything.

[deut_20-21]

I have only one thing to say in my defense wrt to my recent remarks.

First, the only basis for a Christian to make statements in this area to a Jew is on the basis of Scripture. ie., the Jewish Scriptures.

And, I cetainly don't think I can claim that gentiles have treated Jewish people well, or even fairly. (They have not.) But please remember this is not a discussion about culture, at least not on my part. No, it's a discussion about what is right and also about what God has said and done. More to the point, it's about helping to insure Israel's future military power.

I think I've considered the relevant issues from several perspectives and -- all I see that is legitimate to discuss, is Scripture.

So here goes...

I believe that Jesus is the Messiah (which makes me a Christian,) because the writers who God used to write our Scriptures, I believe, uniquely identified Jesus as this person.

I refer with particularity to David, to Isaiah, to Zechariah, and Daniel. Of course a number of other authors, such as Micah contributed too.

Here's what I mean: In Psalms, read Psalm 22.

In Isaiah, (read the book!!, and then again and again!,) but I refer to Isaiah 53. (I say this because what he say's is incredible -- one example, he uses the term "The Land of the Rising Sun" in reference to the Japanese before the Japanese used this phrase themselves! -- He remarks that he's writing to later generations and then proceeds to salt the text with such "one-liners.")

In Daniel, read Chapter 9. Daniel makes the claim that the Messiah would come before the destruction of the second Temple -- remember, he wrote this from Babylon, where the Jews were, effectively, prisoners. And construction of the second Temple had not yet been started, let alone completed -- the Jewish people were still in Babylon. Yet Daniel said that the Messiah would come before the second Temple was destroyed, which occurred under Roman occupation in AD 55.

And last, read Zechariah, who twice (this is from memory, but I think it's chapter 12,) tucked in two very cogent remarks about the Messiah.

About Zechariah, read it!, because it's clear that he knew he was writing for a resistant audience. Sorry, but read it and see if you agree.

I suppose I should have played down my faith (in the context of Israel, I believe that God has promised it to the Jews forever -- and that they will never be removed.)

I'm not sure I'll get the chance, but if I can stay I also want to discuss the borders of Israel, the absense (in this present day,) of sacrifices, why their are so many Jewish doctors! (No, I'm not being anti-semitic. See below.)

Briefly, as I consider God's promises in Genesis, I think the present borders are not at all what was promised. Am I wrong, shouldn't Israel extend north to the Litani river? And shouldn't the western border be the Euphrates? (And yes I well understand that I am writing from the safety of my American living room and that obtaining and securing these borders would be responsibility of the IDF.)

One thing more on this subject -- sometimes the wiser and better course is not to insist on your right's. I see the legitimate government of Lebanon and many of it's people as struggling and I don't think we want to further hurt such people. But if someday Syria takes over...

About the over representation of Jewish physicians; It's simple. God made a deal, he told us to guard His Scriptures, and He promised to bless us as part of that exchange of services. Does God love the Jews? Oh yes!! And read Isaiah, you'll see that this relationship is still in it's infancy, that it continues forever.

And notice, on joining this group, I chose a name-tag incorporating the reference to Deuteronomy, chapters 20 and 21. But just like Jewish doctors, God uses the Jews to help this world, not as a means to harm others. Still, when I look at Hamas and consider the facts in evidence, I think they cry out for a well thought out response, which for me, is outlined in Deuteronomy, 20-21.

Of course everything I have said has been better said by others.

Again:

My reason for coming here (for joining this forum,) is to announce that I am fairly certain that US support for Israel is beginning to weaken, and just as information about the US economy was not well understood (that the US was undergoing an invisible but none the less dramatic economic downturn,) I believe that the historic support Israel has received from the US is about to go away. (To weaken substantially.)

Did you notice how little support for Israel was demonstrated vis the recent Gaza conflict? Compare this to the very public support Israel has received in past wars.

America is changing, the makeup and framework of Christian America is changing, and as America becomes less Christ-oriented, America's support for Israel will weaken.

I have completed my major purpose in joining -- to warn people as I have done. I do research in the domain of event predicting, and have been doing this work for almost ten years. (I've been a programmer and computer scientist for about 45 years.)

Okay, so I'm opinionated -- since I am seeing several negative comments about my remarks I realize that this may be my last post.

So let me get this in too:

If America fails to support Israel (and I fear this is exactly what is about to occur.) Then God, the God of Israel, will look at us and say to himself something like

"Tell me again why I tolerate these people? Why do I bother with them? What do they contribute?"

And his answer will be nothing. And -- we'll go the way of the Myan's, the Aztec's or a dozen other civilizations we know about that have come and gone.

I saw a reference to Lebanese Christians -- who, remember, are located in a difficult place and are, by population, overwhelmed by the Muslims. But we won't even rate dhimmi status (refering to a thread by Madeline.)

[bararallu]

Well Lebanese Christians made their own mistakes and they don't feel like fighting for Lebanon. What they want the Jews to do about it? Israelis could just not save Lebanon, you don't think they tried??? The Christians have lost, most left and the ones who stayed have accepted their semi dhimmi status.

all true, although the disbanding of the SLA by Israel was a direct route to Iranian predominance in south Leb at least.

[bararallu]

I have only one thing to say in my defense wrt to my recent remarks.


You don't need to defend yourself, you're not at Ummah.com. You can be at ease here. There are some sensitive areas for Jews, and you hit a few. And even though few of us are for things like gay marriage, non of us are on board stoning these folks. We generally haven't stoned for thousands of years (not to mention stoning is not what most people think it is). I also respectfully disagree that there is not relationship between people (Christians and Jews for instance) outside scripture. You are an American you have goods bought in China I presume? They are neither Jews or Christian but there is a minimal relationship there too by proxy. Lastly, if you trace the history of the Disputatas you will understand why we Jews generally are a little shy regarding this particular methodology. The best way to do this is to open threads in the religion sub forum, and focus on religion per se, and some people will opine. As is the mixing of politics w/ Religion, be it Jewish, Christian, Muslim etc, is a recipe for a lot of strife. Take the opportunity to learn what we are about, it takes time to see eye to eye.

[Mosche]

You don't need to defend yourself, you're not at Ummah.com. You can be at ease here. There are some sensitive areas for Jews, and you hit a few. And even though few of us are for things like gay marriage, non of us are on board stoning these folks. We generally haven't stoned for thousands of years (not to mention stoning is not what most people think it is). I also respectfully disagree that there is not relationship between people (Christians and Jews for instance) outside scripture. You are an American you have goods bought in China I presume? They are neither Jews or Christian but there is a minimal relationship there too by proxy. Lastly, if you trace the history of the Disputatas you will understand why we Jews generally are a little shy regarding this particular methodology. The best way to do this is to open threads in the religion sub forum, and focus on religion per se, and some people will opine. As is the mixing of politics w/ Religion, be it Jewish, Christian, Muslim etc, is a recipe for a lot of strife. Take the opportunity to learn what we are about, it takes time to see eye to eye.

Master Bararallu, you are quickly becoming my sensei!

[bararallu]

LOL, nah I'm just a keyboard junkie. You've heard of these fellas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem) right? :cool:

[Mosche]

You don't need to defend yourself, you're not at Ummah.com.

I had not visited Ummah until today! After reading several misleading posts, I decided to apply for membership to the forum. I was just denied membership, because my name is "racially charged"? What does that mean? I mean, I could choose a different screen name, but my real name is "Moshe"!--I use "Mosche" as a screen name, because many screen names reguire six characters, and I'm too old to memorize hundreds of screen names. But, I've never thought of my moniker being "racially charged"!

[Brody15]

I also respectfully disagree that there is not relationship between people (Christians and Jews for instance) outside scripture.

Yeah, I disagree with this too. Jews and Christians often times share the same values, this is what brings us together.

[dayag]

I had not visited Ummah until today! After reading several misleading posts, I decided to apply for membership to the forum. I was just denied membership, because my name is "racially charged"? What does that mean? I mean, I could choose a different screen name, but my real name is "Moshe"!--I use "Mosche" as a screen name, because many screen names reguire six characters, and I'm too old to memorize hundreds of screen names. But, I've never thought of my moniker being "racially charged"!

That should tell you a lot about the type of people over at Ummah. They have some real Bin-Laden wannabes over there.
Try Musa and see what happens!

[deut_20-21]

About the Lebanese;

I don't disagree, I was noting that geography makes many issues much harder for them, and other Christians, say in the US, don't have Syria next door.

That was my point -- someday I'll learn to write better.

[Yala]

all true, although the disbanding of the SLA by Israel was a direct route to Iranian predominance in south Leb at least.

Could they stay there forever fighting a proxy war? They should've left after they kicked the PLO to Tunis. In any case, after Bashir Gemayel was killed by the Palestinians & Syria, Lebanon was doomed anyway.

[Madeline]

I had not visited Ummah until today! After reading several misleading posts, I decided to apply for membership to the forum. I was just denied membership, because my name is "racially charged"? What does that mean? I mean, I could choose a different screen name, but my real name is "Moshe"!--I use "Mosche" as a screen name, because many screen names reguire six characters, and I'm too old to memorize hundreds of screen names. But, I've never thought of my moniker being "racially charged"!
Their loss, Mosche, their loss.

[KiwiWriter]

That should tell you a lot about the type of people over at Ummah. They have some real Bin-Laden wannabes over there.
Try Musa and see what happens!

Can always add an "F" and "A" to meet the six character requirements :D

[ItsMyJewty]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMyJewty
Many Christians don't like to admit that Christianity's based on Judaism - it makes them feel... uneasy and they find it hard to deal with. Hence, concerted efforts to remove the problem - either by conversion or other means. It's sort of like a kid who can't feel grown up till he's got rid of his parents. Sad, really.

bararallu: Theologically, I'd say Christianity is more based on Indo-European religion (like mythraism or Zoroastrianism) than it is on ancient (certainly modern) Judaism. And Judaism is itself derivative to a great extent from other semitic religions that preceded it and coexisted with it (Sinaic, Ugaritic etc). Also both religions, fractured and both drifted substantially from their classical origins along the way (e.g., Temple vs Rabbinical Judaism, Kohanut vs Rabbanut authority etc). So I don't think a simple summary can do justice to all parties here. Same with any religion really; it's a big word, and any given reference encompasses a lot of variation, some of it self contentious.

The roots of Christianity are essentially Jewish. I don't think there's any doubt about that. And, although there have been many reasons for Christian anti-Semitism over the centuries, I still think there's some truth in what I said.

[Madeline]

The roots of Christianity are essentially Jewish. I don't think there's any doubt about that. And, although there have been many reasons for Christian anti-Semitism over the centuries, I still think there's some truth in what I said.

Christianity as based on the Old Testament, and the coming of Christ, or the Savior, is mentioned several times. Many see the Old Testament as an outdated set of 'restrictions and laws'. Bible believing Christians see the Old Testament, and the Jewish Geneology, as part of the Faith necessary to understand the New Testament.
The true, Bible believing Christian Faith adheres strictly to the fact that the origin of it all is Jewish. Do not confuse that with Denominations. It is the different Denominations who veer from the true teachings, from God's law.
Esp. the Catholic Church, with the Pope as the authority, has been led astray, and many Catholics, instead of reading the Bible themselves see it as more appropriate to come to a scheduled ceremony of Latin rituals, than to actually seek understanding.

Yes, Jews and Christians are very much so related, after all, Jesus is a Jew. And my signature should speak volumes.
Now, please do not understand what I have written as trying to convert. It says in the Bible many time that God gave us free will.

[Yala]

Now, please do not understand what I have written as trying to convert.

Nobody is reading that way Madeline. Thanks for your explanation about Christianity.

[deut_20-21]

Bararallu said: Theologically, I'd say Christianity is more based on Indo-European religion (like mythraism or Zoroastrianism) than it is on ancient (certainly modern) Judaism. And Judaism is itself derivative to a great extent from other semitic religions that preceded it and coexisted with it (Sinaic, Ugaritic etc). Also both religions, fractured and both drifted substantially from their classical origins along the way (e.g., Temple vs Rabbinical Judaism, Kohanut vs Rabbanut authority etc). So I don't think a simple summary can do justice to all parties here. Same with any religion really; it's a big word, and any given reference encompasses a lot of variation, some of it self contentious.

====

Oh Mr. Bararallu:

You are so wrong. I'm serious. Christianity exists because, with the death and resurrection of the Messiah, their was a huge schism among Jews. Most followed the party line, while some continued to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

And then (this is how the break came about,) the rebellion against the Romans necessitated a battle in which both groups of Jews needed to cooperate in order to win.

The Jewish leader (whose name I forget, but I'll try to find this for you, -- I'm already working on a document, I'll add this to my to do-list.) Anyway, the Jewish leader was claiming to be God or some such thing (he may only have been claiming to be a god, I'm not sure.) But the Christian Jews were unwilling to accept such a leader, and in fact, their help wasn't welcome -- this part depends on who you ask, which historical account you accept.

But what happens in such cases? The unified opposition wins. The Romans put down the rebellion.

Now, I've already posted four references where clearly Jewish writers, men writing for the God of Abraham wrote passages that uniquely identify the Messiah. Those writers are: David, Isaiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. (One of my other posts here very briefly surveyed their remarks.)

So, my friend Mr. Bararallu, (you who have treated me very nicely indeed!,) before you go off and say that Christianity is Indo-European or some such thing, please address what these men said. (I'm not being insincere, I am favorably impressed at the conduct I see here. Thank you. So I'm trying to exhibit good behavior too.)

But one thing more: I am not here to defend the conduct of Christians. I recall a man, a Jewish man who had become a Christian, a Poie, who became a Christian a few years before Poland was invaded and it's Jews taken away, he had been going to a Christian Bible study at a Lutheran church and was known to the pastor.

And he showed up one evening at this Lutheran church, asking the pastor to hide him. And this high and mighty pastor (in his own eyes maybe, but the eye's of God -- no, I don't think so...) refused to hide him.

And he twice was captured by the Germans. And twice escaped, once from a prison death camp. He wrote a book, it's published by Jews For Jesus. You should read it.

The Lutheran pastor, after the war, didn't even apoligize. Instead he defended his actions saying that he did what he did because he was following the law.

Well let me tell you!!, in my world the Laws of God are infinitely more important than the laws of man -- not that the two should ever be in conflict, in fact God helped man to develop laws; We call the beginning of these laws the Laws handed down to Moses.

However, from time to time, man's laws do conflict with God's laws. Unfortunately I see American Jews as sitting ducks for American repression. (I went into this topic last week and got nowhere -- sigh...)

Oh yeah, once upon a time... Well, let me leave you with this -- and I know this isn't fair, saying something like this and not disclosing the meaning -- but the God of the Bible still does miracles. He still looks after His own. His arm isn't shortened that he can't reach out. He's not asleep either.

Habakkuk said that the righteous live by faith; So, tell me folks, what do you think about this? But please don't start with Christianity being anything but Jewish.

Instead read Habukkuk, it's short. He said the righteous live by faith. It seems to me that this is what we're supposed to do.

[Madeline]

Bararallu said: Theologically, I'd say Christianity is more based on Indo-European religion (like mythraism or Zoroastrianism) than it is on ancient (certainly modern) Judaism. And Judaism is itself derivative to a great extent from other semitic religions that preceded it and coexisted with it (Sinaic, Ugaritic etc). Also both religions, fractured and both drifted substantially from their classical origins along the way (e.g., Temple vs Rabbinical Judaism, Kohanut vs Rabbanut authority etc). So I don't think a simple summary can do justice to all parties here. Same with any religion really; it's a big word, and any given reference encompasses a lot of variation, some of it self contentious.

====

Oh Mr. Bararallu:

You are so wrong. I'm serious. Christianity exists because, with the death and resurrection of the Messiah, their was a huge schism among Jews. Most followed the party line, while some continued to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

And then (this is how the break came about,) the rebellion against the Romans necessitated a battle in which both groups of Jews needed to cooperate in order to win.

The Jewish leader (whose name I forget, but I'll try to find this for you, -- I'm already working on a document, I'll add this to my to do-list.) Anyway, the Jewish leader was claiming to be God or some such thing (he may only have been claiming to be a god, I'm not sure.) But the Christian Jews were unwilling to accept such a leader, and in fact, their help wasn't welcome -- this part depends on who you ask, which historical account you accept.

But what happens in such cases? The unified opposition wins. The Romans put down the rebellion.

Now, I've already posted four references where clearly Jewish writers, men writing for the God of Abraham wrote passages that uniquely identify the Messiah. Those writers are: David, Isaiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. (One of my other posts here very briefly surveyed their remarks.)

So, my friend Mr. Bararallu, (you who have treated me very nicely indeed!,) before you go off and say that Christianity is Indo-European or some such thing, please address what these men said. (I'm not being insincere, I am favorably impressed at the conduct I see here. Thank you. So I'm trying to exhibit good behavior too.)

But one thing more: I am not here to defend the conduct of Christians. I recall a man, a Jewish man who had become a Christian, a Poie, who became a Christian a few years before Poland was invaded and it's Jews taken away, he had been going to a Christian Bible study at a Lutheran church and was known to the pastor.

And he showed up one evening at this Lutheran church, asking the pastor to hide him. And this high and mighty pastor (in his own eyes maybe, but the eye's of God -- no, I don't think so...) refused to hide him.

And he twice was captured by the Germans. And twice escaped, once from a prison death camp. He wrote a book, it's published by Jews For Jesus. You should read it.

The Lutheran pastor, after the war, didn't even apoligize. Instead he defended his actions saying that he did what he did because he was following the law.

Well let me tell you!!, in my world the Laws of God are infinitely more important than the laws of man -- not that the two should ever be in conflict, in fact God helped man to develop laws; We call the beginning of these laws the Laws handed down to Moses.

However, from time to time, man's laws do conflict with God's laws. Unfortunately I see American Jews as sitting ducks for American repression. (I went into this topic last week and got nowhere -- sigh...)

Oh yeah, once upon a time... Well, let me leave you with this -- and I know this isn't fair, saying something like this and not disclosing the meaning -- but the God of the Bible still does miracles. He still looks after His own. His arm isn't shortened that he can't reach out. He's not asleep either.

Habakkuk said that the righteous live by faith; So, tell me folks, what do you think about this? But please don't start with Christianity being anything but Jewish.

Instead read Habukkuk, it's short. He said the righteous live by faith. It seems to me that this is what we're supposed to do.
You over complicate.

[dayag]

If this is going to turn into a theological discussion, perhaps this thread should be moved to the Relgion/Culture section of the Forum?

[Madeline]

If this is going to turn into a theological discussion, perhaps this thread should be moved to the Relgion/Culture section of the Forum?
Just answering a question, dayag, but point taken. I think this thread has run its course.

[dayag]

Just answering a question, dayag, but point taken. I think this thread has run its course.

I'm not complaining. Religious discussions are fine, but it doesn't seem to fit the "War in Gaza" section is all.

[deut_20-21]

I'm not complaining. Religious discussions are fine, but it doesn't seem to fit the "War in Gaza" section is all.

Dayag and Madeline:

Both of you are right: I do not know how to move a topic and also, I am trying to say something that normally I wouldn't say -- but I see the Obama admin. moving the US in such a way that will have terrible implications, first, for Israeli, and subsequently, for Jews living in the US.

So I'm trying to signal Jewish people that the military umbrella which the United States has extended for Israel is coming to an end.

As far as I can tell, certainly not by counting each individual country, but rather by using estimation techniques, about 1000 times in history (REMEMBER: this is just my estimate,) a small country has been protected from a larger, more powerful neighbor by a regional super-power.

Example: For a time, Egypt and Israel had a mutual aggression pact to protect Israel from Babylon.

Another example; Remember two Viet Nam's, and the US.

Another example; Two Korea's, and the US.

In almost every single example I have been able to find (I do a lot of computer based AI;) The super-power or regional protector grows tired of providing support, or in other ways fails to provide protection, and the belligerent successfully attacks (and usually consumes their weaker neighbor.) The only case I have found where the defense has worked for the weaker state is wrt South Korea.

Israel has been and is now the recipient of military assistance from the US -- and that's been useful, except the US, which has been changing, moving away from a Christian context, will soon demonstrate considerable resistance to sticking up for Israel.

I know, this prior paragraph is speculative.

Unfortunately, merely watching this occur does nothing for Israel. What do I think Israel should do? Exactly what they wanted to do: Neutralize Iran. But the US has forbid it. And Israel is listening to the US, doing nothing, while Iran has 5000 centrifuges spinning 24X7.

As for my thinking, for me this just flows together -- but I recognize that religion sometimes isn't a reliable basis for making wise decisions. Actually I think that depends on whether or not someone's "religion" is based on knowing the Creator (remember, He told us he made us for fellowship!,) or whether it's something else entirely.

Look at Hamas. Those people have hard-line views, too. (Like me, I admit.) The difference is (this is my analysis,) that they have none of the attributes that go along with knowing God, (such as being willing to be long-suffering, demonstrating kindness, and people who are patient, exhibit joy, desire peace, goodness, faithfulness, and appreciate gentle behavior in others.

I claim that such things are from God, and that these qualities come naturally with knowing God.

But I am speaking up because I fear that the US is soon (a year, two at the most, -- in my opinion) going to substantially reduce the scope and nature of it's protection wrt Israel.

I do have some proof of my research BTW. I also do short-term predictions, day-to-day stuff and I am willing to disclose this work to someone to check and thus, in a few days, it would be obvious whether my claims are based on quackery or not. (The day-to-day predictions are financial in nature. I own a company that supplies estimated OHLC numbers for the 2500 most active US traded securities.)

I am experimenting too, obviously I don't know the future; And I don't care about the Mayan calendar. What will happen in 2012? Their calendar will roll over, that's all. (And the Mayan's are extinct as a people-group because they killed their young people, God doesn't like people who kill, claiming that he's behind there actions. Though I think wrt Iraq and Iran, Israel's action's were/are clearly warranted, as self-defense.)

[Brody15]

I don't see the US cutting off support to Israel. And I think you're saying that the US is becoming more secular, and that is why the US will cut off support. I'm not sure if I agree with that either. You seem to have an angle, but I'm not sure what it is.

[deut_20-21]

I don't see the US cutting off support to Israel. And I think you're saying that the US is becoming more secular, and that is why the US will cut off support. I'm not sure if I agree with that either. You seem to have an angle, but I'm not sure what it is.

Right now!, the Obama admin. has asked ex-Senator Mitchell to go to Israel, (well, right this second Israel is in the midst of elections, but as soon as these elections are over,) Mr. Mitchell will go to Israel.

And now, no waiting!, now, this admin. has people talking with Iran, trying to obtain non-attack pledges. Not a pledge to not attack the US, but a pledge by Iran not to attack Israel.

(I am amazed that anyone would believe the Iranians, assuming that they agree.) But make no mistake, they will agree, and the US will cover Israel with it's nuclear shield.

Does anyone remember Bill Clinton and the Kurds?

Or how about JFK and the Cuban freedom fighters?

Need I go on?

Israel is going to get nuked -- at least their going to get nuked if they foolishly rely on Iranian promises to behave themselves.

And the US is going to continue to move away from Israel.

[Madeline]

I don't see the US cutting off support to Israel. And I think you're saying that the US is becoming more secular, and that is why the US will cut off support. I'm not sure if I agree with that either. You seem to have an angle, but I'm not sure what it is.
I think Obama is listening too much to the UN, and there lies the problem. He has a global mindframe. If push came to shove, yes, he'd side with Palestine. I don't have nothing to back that up, it is just a feeling.

[Mediocrates]

Well you can't go by the State Dept and Clinton. The State Dept has had Arab sympathies written into its DNA for decades. After WW2 the State Dept in conjunction with the CIA had a program that depicted Communism as a Jewish invention JUST SO Arab states would hate Communism. I don't think our own Communists here have ever forgiven the Jews for that.

[Y. Shulamith]

I believe that the USA keeps its' aces up its' respective sleeves and we can all sit around and wonder 'til kingdom come what the real truth is, that is going on. I think that what we hear and what gets out to us "regular folk" in no way reveals what is truly going on. The Mossad doesn't go around telling it's secrets, I don't believe, either.

Speculation is a crapshoot.....but what the heck, let's fire away.

[Brody15]

I tend to agree with what Netanyahu says about how we need to stop Iran NOW, and that Israel will not let another holocaust happen. I agree too that the Obama admin is going tot ry to appease the Arabs. My hope is that he'll quickly learn that the situation is complicated. Like how he went from "closing Gitmo on day one" to "eventually closing gitmo and recognizing the complications of the situation."

Maybe what Deut is saying is that America is believing less in G-d, and more in progressivism. And that is dangerous. Which I think it is.

[deut_20-21]

Well, Madeline: I'm willing to plead to a reduced charge of getting carried away.

[Aviva]

Oh Mr. Bararallu:

You are so wrong. I'm serious.

Well, it looks like I've come back into this thread, largely because you're saying things, Deut 20-21 that are just asking to be refuted.

I agree with Bararallu about Christianity being based on Indo-European theology. It may have tacked itself onto the religious scriptures of Judaism and emerged as a Jewish sect, but it's concepts of G-d, ie: it's specific theology, is alien to Jewish thinking. There are no sons of G-d in Jewish thought, no holy people but there certainly are in the ancient religion of Hinduism, where the gods frequently are believed to incarnate as avatars, ie: in human form.

There have been books written about the missing life of Jesus between the ages of 12 and 33 and it's been suggested in these books that he travelled to India and learned about Eastern theology and philosophy. It makes perfect sense. Young Israelis still do it now.

Monotheism is the whole point of Judaism and what makes is unlike any other religion, (with the possible exception of Islam - although they do see their Prophet as being infallible). I'm not interested in being explained the Trinity. It's NOT monotheism. The Ten Commandments set out very clearly that there is only one G-d, in a world where other religions worship images of all kinds of deities. A deified man would be just an image, no different to a golden calf. There is absolutely no comprising on there being only one G-d and with no images, statues or other such aids to worship. The awaited Messiah is not a god.


Christianity exists because, with the death and resurrection of the Messiah

Fair enough - you believe that as a Christian. As a Jew, I would disagree. Christianity was one small sect amongst many in the Jewish community that grew when exposed to non-Jews, (ie: Greeks) and became huge due the Romans making it their state religion. Otherwise, it would have remained obscure.


their was a huge schism among Jews. Most followed the party line, while some continued to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, as the schism in Jewish history was after the death of King Solomon.


And then (this is how the break came about,) the rebellion against the Romans necessitated a battle in which both groups of Jews needed to cooperate in order to win.

The Jewish leader (whose name I forget, but I'll try to find this for you, -- I'm already working on a document, I'll add this to my to do-list.) Anyway, the Jewish leader was claiming to be God or some such thing (he may only have been claiming to be a god, I'm not sure.) But the Christian Jews were unwilling to accept such a leader, and in fact, their help wasn't welcome -- this part depends on who you ask, which historical account you accept.

The Jewish leader was claiming to be G-d? I really don't know what you're talking about. Are you referring to Simon Bar Kochbar? Yes, he was considered by many Jews to be the Messiah at the time, as he fitted the Messianic profile. He's one of several men who have been presented as being the possible Messiah over the last two thousand years. The most memorable one, Sabatai Zevi in the 17th century is a truly fascinating story.


But what happens in such cases? The unified opposition wins. The Romans put down the rebellion.

With the exception of the Holocaust, this is the worst period of Jewish history. The lack of unification and the senseless hatred it caused is considered to be the reason the Temple was destroyed. It's got very little to do with Christianity per see, seeing as that was only one of many arguing sects in the Jewish community. It was the Zealots, who were most active at that time.


Now, I've already posted four references where clearly Jewish writers, men writing for the God of Abraham wrote passages that uniquely identify the Messiah. Those writers are: David, Isaiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. (One of my other posts here very briefly surveyed their remarks.)

Posting Christian references doesn't take into account the Jewish counter-argument, which I posted earlier. Here it is again: http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

If you scroll down, there a lot of interesting information that refutes a lot of Christian claims. Now, no one is trying to assault your personal faith - you're free to believe what you like. But claiming Jesus is the Jewish Messiah as though it's a fact, rather than an opinion based on faith, is exactly what I would describe as missionising.


He wrote a book, it's published by Jews For Jesus. You should read it.

Jews For Jesus are one of the most offensive Christian groups I can think of. Surely you are aware of their reputation and their below the belt tactics?

[baggi]

Well, it looks like I've come back into this thread, largely because you're saying things, Deut 20-21 that are just asking to be refuted.

I agree with Bararallu about Christianity being based on Indo-European theology. It may have tacked itself onto the religious scriptures of Judaism and emerged as a Jewish sect, but it's concepts of G-d, ie: it's specific theology, is alien to Jewish thinking. There are no sons of G-d in Jewish thought, no holy people but there certainly are in the ancient religion of Hinduism, where the gods frequently are believed to incarnate as avatars, ie: in human form.

There have been books written about the missing life of Jesus between the ages of 12 and 33 and it's been suggested in these books that he travelled to India and learned about Eastern theology and philosophy. It makes perfect sense. Young Israelis still do it now.

Monotheism is the whole point of Judaism and what makes is unlike any other religion, (with the possible exception of Islam - although they do see their Prophet as being infallible). I'm not interested in being explained the Trinity. It's NOT monotheism. The Ten Commandments set out very clearly that there is only one G-d, in a world where other religions worship images of all kinds of deities. A deified man would be just an image, no different to a golden calf. There is absolutely no comprising on there being only one G-d and with no images, statues or other such aids to worship.



Fair enough - you believe that as a Christian. As a Jew, I would disagree. Christianity was one small sect amongst many in the Jewish community that grew when exposed to non-Jews, (ie: Greeks) and became huge due the Romans making it their state religion. Otherwise, it would have remained obscure.



I'm not sure what you're referring to, as the schism in Jewish history was after the death of King Solomon.



The Jewish leader was claiming to be G-d? I really don't know what you're talking about. Firstly, there are no human gods in Jewish thinking and secondly, if you're going to claim there are, then you'll need to have a convincing argument.



With the exception of the Holocaust, this is the worst period of Jewish history. The lack of unification and the senseless hatred it caused is considered to be the reason the Temple was destroyed. It's got very little to do with Christianity per see, seeing as that was only one of many arguing sects in the Jewish community. It was the Zealots, who were most active at that time.



Posting Christian references doesn't take into account the Jewish counter-argument, which I posted earlier. Here it is again: http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

If you scroll down, there a lot of interesting information that refutes a lot of Christian claims. Now, no one is trying to assault your personal faith - you're free to believe what you like. But claiming Jesus is the Jewish Messiah as though it's a fact, rather than an opinion based on faith, is exactly what I would describe as missionising.



Jews For Jesus are one of the most offensive Christian groups I can think of. Surely you are aware of their reputation and their below the belt tactics?

but if there is no christ how do we (us non jews) go to heaven ?

[Aviva]

but if there is no christ how do we (us non jews) go to heaven ?

In Jewish thinking, the righteous (ie: the good, decent people) of ALL religions have a place in the world to come.

I didn't say there was no valid Christian Saviour. I just refute the claims that he's the same as the Jewish Messiah.

[codedvirus]

but if there is no christ how do we (us non jews) go to heaven ?

Do you really want to go to heaven?

I have booked my ticket to Hell....:p

[Aviva]

Do you really want to go to heaven?

I have booked my ticket to Hell....:p

I rather agree with Sartre inasmuch as I see Hell as being other people...

[Kenneth]

but if there is no christ how do we (us non jews) go to heaven ?

By houseboat of course. Townes Van Zandt is building one now.

[baggi]

In Jewish thinking, the righteous (ie: the good, decent people) of ALL religions have a place in the world to come.

I didn't say there was no valid Christian Saviour. I just refute the claims that he's the same as the Jewish Messiah.

so worshipping allah would do it?.. offcource the good people in the world have a place in heaven, but it sounds like there i no "right" religion from what you say.. do you meen that all gods are the same, the bibels god, the koran,hindu ect. that it is all the same? but just says differént things.

[baggi]

Do you really want to go to heaven?

I have booked my ticket to Hell....:p

i`m sure you will get a warm welcome :D

[dayag]

so worshipping allah would do it?.. offcource the good people in the world have a place in heaven, but it sounds like there i no "right" religion from what you say.. do you meen that all gods are the same, the bibels god, the koran,hindu ect. that it is all the same? but just says differént things.

It says the righteous of all nations, not all religions.

According to Jewish tradition, we Jews are required to obey 613 commandments, but non-Jews are only required to keep seven, called the Noachide Laws:

"The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are

Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.

Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)

Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.

Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.

Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)

Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

[baggi]

It says the righteous of all nations, not all religions.

According to Jewish tradition, we Jews are required to obey 613 commandments, but non-Jews are only required to keep seven, called the Noachide Laws:

"The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are

Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.

Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)

Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.

Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.

Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)

Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

interesting. never heard of the seven commandments before :/

[Aviva]

It says the righteous of all nations, not all religions.

Yes, that's true; it does say 'nation' not 'religion'.

But I'm still uneasy with the concept of some religions being "right" at the expense of other religions being "wrong". It's that very concept that justified the Inquisition and the various waves, both Christian and Muslim of mass enforced conversions.

[codedvirus]

Originally Posted by baggi
i`m sure you will get a warm welcome
Ya I am preparing for that. Thanks to Global warming. ........:cool:

Just dont want to get warm by our Jihadi Brothers....:unsure:

[ItsMyJewty]

Aviva: Monotheism is the whole point of Judaism and what makes is unlike any other religion, (with the possible exception of Islam - although they do see their Prophet as being infallible).

Christianity is rooted in the Jewish teaching of monotheism. The schism between Judaism and Christianity occurred after the Roman destruction of the Temple (seen by both religions as punishment from G-d). The Gospels blamed the Jews, not the Romans, for killing Jesus – Jews were depicted as Christ killers. This, together with failed attempts by Christians (the new Jews) to convert Jews to the new (and therefore more "advanced" religion), led to resentment and centuries of persecution. The problem is clear: Christians have never accepted the fact that Jews stubbornly continued practising their own religion, when theirs was supposed to be the more advanced version. It makes them feel insecure about their religion and they see Jews as an inconvenience, a threat: if Jews are continuing to practise Judaism, what's the point of Christianity?

[Aviva]

Christianity is rooted in the Jewish teaching of monotheism.

It pays lip service to monotheism on the one hand, otherwise why do Christians keep the Ten Commandments. On the other hand, though, Christians have an immortal Holy Man who claims to be G-d incarnated, a Holy Spirit, an infallible Virgin Mother and the Catholics have an infallible Pope and many Holy Saints. All of these characters are worshipped as images and statues.

All of this breaks what is expressly forbidden by the monotheism of the Ten Commandments.


The schism between Judaism and Christianity occurred after the Roman destruction of the Temple (seen by both religions as punishment from G-d). The Gospels blamed the Jews, not the Romans, for killing Jesus – Jews were depicted as Christ killers. This, together with failed attempts by Christians (the new Jews) to convert Jews to the new (and therefore more "advanced" religion), led to resentment and centuries of persecution.

I see your point. But, if I were a Christian, I would genuinely wonder how much of the Gospels, (which, after all, were written many years after the events and none of which were eye-witness accounts), were actually journalistically true and how much were political polemics to appease the Roman authorities? It seems a reasonable question, especially as the Gospels are taken as ultimate literal truth.


The problem is clear: Christians have never accepted the fact that Jews stubbornly continued practising their own religion, when theirs was supposed to be the more advanced version. It makes them feel insecure about their religion and they see Jews as an inconvenience, a threat: if Jews are continuing to practise Judaism, what's the point of Christianity?

That's a very good point. Christians also don't seem to see that the Messiah is meant to bring peace. Where is that peace? Does it mean peace in heaven rather than peace currently on earth? It doesn't make sense.

[codedvirus]

baggi,

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/heavenhell.asp
Just found out as per Hindu scriptures do not conclude with the description of just one heaven and one hell. Frankly, Hindus well versed in scriptures, do not believe in just one heaven or one hell.

I dont no anything about my religion..........:scratch:

Now I need to book my Heaven Ticket...........:D

[Toadstool46]

The way I understand it is this:
God gave Moses the 10 comandmants. At that time it was for the Jewish people.

The 10 comandamants were given not that any human can ever keep all of them, in fact due to the fact that we are human we can't keep all of them.

The comandments were given to show mankind that they cannot achieve the perfection and rightous purity needed to enter into an eternal relationship in the presents of God.

Therefore we need to admitt our sinfulness and be forgiven. First by sacrifices. Then after Christ's death and resurection, after which the price was payed, sacrifices are no longer necessary just acceptance of Christ as the son of man and faith that he has payed the price and will pardon us when we face his father.

In this period of time we have two comandmets 1: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and 2: Treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.

Those two sum it all up.

As for enterance into heaven.. there will be only one question asked of you at your judgement. Only one is needed because we all have done something sinful even if it was to tell a simple lie.... your busted. As God sees it only one sin causes us to be imperfect and damned.

The question that will be asked is Did you believe in my Son and repent of your sins and strive for a righteous walk in your life?

Thats it. Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Budist, Black, white, Asian, Indian, French, German, polish, Russian, theif, killer, liar, bigot, glutten, drunkard.... Doesn't matter. Did you believe and try to change.
Thats it

[Aviva]

The way I understand it is this:
God gave Moses the 10 comandmants. At that time it was for the Jewish people.

The 10 comandamants were given not that any human can ever keep all of them, in fact due to the fact that we are human we can't keep all of them.

The comandments were given to show mankind that they cannot achieve the perfection and rightous purity needed to enter into an eternal relationship in the presents of God.

But religious Jews still keep those commandments - there are actually 613 of them, which include the Ten Commandments. Sure, it's difficult for them to do and each person will make mistakes but it's the continued action of trying to keep them which counts. They keep them because they were asked to. It's fulfulling their side of a covenant.

And by the way, a Jewish midrash (ie: a religious legend) tells that all the other nations were offered the keeping of the Torah first and they all said no. The Jews also said no but G-d made them change their mind.


Therefore we need to admitt our sinfulness and be forgiven. First by sacrifices. Then after Christ's death and resurection, after which the price was payed, sacrifices are no longer necessary just acceptance of Christ as the son of man and faith that he has payed the price and will pardon us when we face his father.

This is where Christianity becomes different from mainstream Judaism. It sounds as though life becomes like a constant Yom Kippur.


In this period of time we have two comandmets 1: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and 2: Treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.

That first quote is from the Jewish prayer the Shema. The second quote is attributed to Hillel, not Jesus (who came after him and must have heard about Hillel's teachings).



As for enterance into heaven.. there will be only one question asked of you at your judgement. Only one is needed because we all have done something sinful even if it was to tell a simple lie.... your busted. As God sees it only one sin causes us to be imperfect and damned.

The question that will be asked is Did you believe in my Son and repent of your sins and strive for a righteous walk in your life?

Thats it. Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Budist, Black, white, Asian, Indian, French, German, polish, Russian, theif, killer, liar, bigot, glutten, drunkard.... Doesn't matter. Did you believe and try to change.
Thats it

Don't you think that's very unfair? That Christians see only Christians as being worthy of heaven?

[Toadstool46]

I agree, Aviva, that the Jews still keep those comandments, as they should, as everyones should. And yes everyone is going to slip up. And, yes it is the continued aim of keeping them that is what all should strive for.

I also agree that all of mankind was offered the comandments but all but the Jews rejected them. This is why it was so radical for the diciples to preach conversion to the Gentiles who were unclean and basically damned.

This is where Christianity becomes different from mainstream Judaism. It sounds as though life becomes like a constant Yom Kippur.

I understand your view on this but admittance of our human sinfullness and choice to follow Christs example happens only once. Continual prayer and relationshiop with Jesus after that with requests for forgiveness when we slip up is all that is necessary. It is not a licience to sin with no remorce.

As for Hillel, sorry I haven't heard of him but I was taught that Jesus said that these were two new comandments that he gave to his people.

And no Christians are not the only ones worthy of this. The word Christian is just a name. Christ doesn't care who you are, just that you believe. It is for everyone.

What I have stated, to me, is just the evangelical outlook to salvation.

I just wanted to put it out there as my opinion and I understand that the Jewish people and other religions will disagree with some or all of it.

[Aviva]

I agree, Aviva, that the Jews still keep those comandments, as they should, as everyones should.

But the point is that the covenant was made specifically with the Jewish people, not universally with all of humanity. In return, the Jews agreed to keep the 613 commandments (the mitzvot). That's why they consider themselves "chosen"; not because they're any better but because they agreed to enter into this relationship of covenant. They still keep that covenant.


I also agree that all of mankind was offered the comandments but all but the Jews rejected them. This is why it was so radical for the diciples to preach conversion to the Gentiles who were unclean and basically damned.

Gentiles were unclean and damned? No, that's an unfortunate misunderstanding. What specifically are you referring to? Non-Jews are not seen as unclean and damned. That would be terrible, if it were true.


As for Hillel, sorry I haven't heard of him but I was taught that Jesus said that these were two new comandments that he gave to his people.

The commandments you mentioned: the first one is from the Shema, which is the most important prayer in Judaism. And Hillel was a Jewish sage living a generation or two before Jesus who said: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour", which is similar to what Jesus said was the most important commandment in the Torah.

[Sharona]

The question that will be asked is Did you believe in my Son and repent of your sins and strive for a righteous walk in your life?


This question of believing in Jesus as the Messiah or you're doomed thing is the one thing that I find quite strange.

Firstly - what about all those who lived before Jesus? What about those civilisations that are still largely untouched by the West - they haven't even heard of Jesus.

Thirdly - I cannot, for the life of me, envisage a G-d who could create a universe (just a few high-level physics lessons give you a tiny insight into such a mind) and yet be a little egotistical and petty with regard to his son. Not to mention a tad tyrannical.

I kind of liken people to ants. An ant simply cannot conceive the world in which we live. It doesn't have a brain capable of understand a TV, a car, a school and so on. If there is a G-d who created the universe, we must be somewhere around the level of an ant in terms of our comprehension of His mind.

Why on earth would such an omnipotent G-d be quite so small-minded as to be remotely interested in whether or not his creation believed in his son?

What happens to the likes of Gandhi - a deeply spiritual man who struggled his whole life towards the divine - but wasn't a Christian? How will Gandhi and others like him be judged?

This 'you must believe in my son' just sounds so silly and frankly - so worldly. It brings G-d down to our level.

[dayag]

This question of believing in Jesus as the Messiah or you're doomed thing is the one thing that I find quite strange.

Firstly - what about all those who lived before Jesus? What about those civilisations that are still largely untouched by the West - they haven't even heard of Jesus.

Thirdly - I cannot, for the life of me, envisage a G-d who could create a universe (just a few high-level physics lessons give you a tiny insight into such a mind) and yet be a little egotistical and petty with regard to his son. Not to mention a tad tyrannical.

I kind of liken people to ants. An ant simply cannot conceive the world in which we live. It doesn't have a brain capable of understand a TV, a car, a school and so on. If there is a G-d who created the universe, we must be somewhere around the level of an ant in terms of our comprehension of His mind.

Why on earth would such an omnipotent G-d be quite so small-minded as to be remotely interested in whether or not his creation believed in his son?

What happens to the likes of Gandhi - a deeply spiritual man who struggled his whole life towards the divine - but wasn't a Christian? How will Gandhi and others like him be judged?

This 'you must believe in my son' just sounds so silly and frankly - so worldly. It brings G-d down to our level.

No disrespect intended to anyone's religious beliefs, but I have a problem with the idea of a just G-d sentencing anyone to an infinite punishment for the finite sins committed in one short human life span.

[Sharona]

No disrespect intended to anyone's religious beliefs, but I have a problem with the idea of a just G-d sentencing anyone to an infinite punishment for the finite sins committed in one short human life span.

And a life that doesn't start on an even playing field for all people.

Nor does it last the same length of time for all people. Some die as babies without comprehension of a G-d, some die as young people who haven't had time to seek answers to life.

I once overheard a discussion between a small group of women and an Anglican priest. The priest had refused to officiate at the funeral of a 16yr old, killed in an accident, because he hadn't been baptised. Answering further questions from this group of women - who were becoming more bemused by the moment - he also said that a stillborn child would not go to heaven because it had not been baptised. Nor would a baby who was born alive but died before it could be baptised.

[Toadstool46]

Aviva ...Thank you for those views. It helps to understand others points of view on these topics.

Sharona.. I believe that what I said is the question asked for those who have had a personal oportunity to make the choice and have had the knowledge that they are infact making the choice between believing or not.

Also because God cares about you, knows you and loves you, and every human, He created us for eternal live with Him. And... when we sin we become unclean. God cannot have sin in his presence. So we cannot be with Him.

Also. any human who doesn't have the mental capabilities to understand things such as this would never be held accountable. This means stillborn, infants, young children, mentally challenged people etc. Baptism doesn't save anyone. It is the choice made before being baptised. The baptism is a public profession of your faith.

[baggi]

just found a interesting video. is he right about the translation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaaosPgQJXE

[Mosche]

No! This is one of those moments when you are better to look up the meaning for yourself--so that it doesn't seem as though "it's one of them there Jewish conspiracies to hide the truth from Christians."

The website Think Baby Names is an easy to use website, but there are several available--again, use your own discretion, so that you don't think that I'm trying to manipulate the results.

I have read several of Missler's sermons/works; when drafting his works, he often quotes questionable authorities--or no authorities at all. This article--there are others--pointedly addresses Chuck Missler's credability:

Jim Lippard
Department of Philosophy
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
lippard@ccit.arizona.edu

June 8, 1993

Chuck Missler
c/o Koinonia House
P.O. Box D
Coeur d'Alene, ID 83816-0347

Dear Mr. Missler:

There are two kinds of people responsible for falsehoods widely believed by Christians--people who are sources of error, either because of deceit or incompetence, and people who are propagators of error. Sources of recent falsehoods include Mike Warnke's and "Lauren Stratford"'s lies about their involvement with Satanism and Barry Setterfield's bogus speed-of-light decay theory. Propagators include Harvest House books, Lambert Dolphin, and yourself. Those who have corrected these errors include Cornerstone magazine, Christianity Today (to a more limited extent), the Creation Research Society Quarterly, the Institute for Creation Research's Impact, the Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, and the Creation/Evolution journal.

I assume from your continued promotion of Barry Setterfield that you are simply unaware of the devastating and unanswered critiques of his work. I have enclosed a copy of a recent publication (by a Christian creationist, Eugene Chaffin) which shows that the speed of light has not changed by more than 0.4% in the last three centuries. I also direct your attention to P. Sisterna and H. Vucetich, "Time variation of fundamental constants: Bounds from geophysical and astronomical data," Physical Review D: Particles and Fields vol. 41, no. 4, 15 February 1990, pp. 1034-1046. This paper, like Chaffin's, completely rules out the possibility of Setterfield's theory being correct.

Setterfield's work has not only been debunked, it has been shown to be incompetent and dishonest. Setterfield has on at least two occasions published alleged favorable quotations and presented them as approving of his theory when the supposed authors of those quotations either completely disclaim them or were not speaking about what Setterfield implies. (The two people I know of who have been misquoted are: (1) D. Russell Humphreys, who complained about it in his "Has the Speed of Light Decayed Recently?", Creation Research Society Quarterly vol. 25, June 1988, pp. 40-45 (quote discussed on the first page). Setterfield's reply does not address the quotation issue. (2) Walter Brown, who denied the quote in his "Brown Responds to Lippard," Creation/Evolution issue 25, Fall 1989, pp. 35-48 (quote discussed on p. 39) and in his "A Second Response to Jim Lippard," Creation/Evolution issue 26, Winter 1989-90, pp. 34-54 (quote discussed on p. 39). Brown went so far as to accuse me of possessing a "doctored" version of Setterfield's monograph which used the quote, but he was in error, as the Creation Science Foundation of Australia and other possessors of the second edition of Setterfield's monograph can verify.)

For debunking of Setterfield, I recommend, in addition to the above, Gerald E. Aardsma, "Has the Speed of Light Decayed Recently?", CRSQ vol. 25, June 1988, pp. 36-40; Gerald E. Aardsma, "Response to Setterfield," CRSQ vol. 26, June 1989, p. 30; D. Russell Humphreys, "Inadequate Defense of c-Decay Hypothesis," CRSQ vol. 26, June 1989, pp. 30-32; R.H. Brown, "Rejoinder to Setterfield," CRSQ vol. 26, June 1989, p. 32; Roy D. Holt, "The Norman-Setterfield Model: An Inaccurate Description of Reality," CRSQ vol. 26, September 1989, p. 68; M.G. Evered, "Is There Really Evidence of a Recent Decrease in c?" Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, vol. 5, no. 2, 1991, pp. 99-104; and my own articles in Creation/Evolution issues 25, 26, and 27. Setterfield himself stopped responding to criticism after his exceedingly lame "The Atomic Constants in Light of Criticism," CRSQ vol. 25, March 1989, pp. 190-197.

By the way, Setterfield is not a physicist--he has no advanced degrees in that field (or didn't as of 1989) and no academic appointment. Also by the way, your reference to V.S. Troitskii's work is misleading. If you read Troitskii's paper, you will find that, while he does give a model in which the speed of light is changing (though one which has, I believe, been empirically falsified), his model is completely incompatible with Setterfield's theory for reasons given in William Jefferys' letter to Creation/Evolution, issue 27, Winter 1989- 90, pp. 55-56. (Troitskii's theory implies a very old (billions of years) universe.)

I hope that you will examine some of this evidence and inform your readers of it rather than continuing to propagate error in the name of Christianity.

I would also like to comment on your June article on prophecy fulfillment, which contains a bogus probability analysis. For instance, you estimate the probability of a Messiah claimant entering Jerusalem on a donkey based on how many candidate Messiahs have done this, assuming (without evidence) that it is less than one in a hundred. Not only is this probably wrong, the correct question to ask is: How many prospective Messiahs, knowing of the existence of this prophecy, would bother taking the trouble to fulfill it? It's not as though entering Jerusalem on a donkey is beyond the capacity of a human being to intentionally fulfill. I'd assess the probability as on the order of one in one.

Your commentary on the alleged betrayal prophecy in Zechariah has both misinterpreted the verse and taken it out of context. First, you've quoted an erroneous translation of Zechariah 11:12, which does not say the coins were cast "to the potter," but rather "into the treasury." (It is correctly translated in the Revised Standard Version and New Revised Standard Versions.) Second, Zechariah is describing his own wages--there is no mention at all of a betrayal. Finally, your footnote about Jeremiah is assuming a lot--there is no evidence that Jeremiah said any such thing (though Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties struggles mightily to put the appropriate words into the text of Jeremiah).

I have enclosed for you a copy of my Fabulous Prophecies of the Messiah which criticizes most of the alleged prophecies you discuss and a number of others, and specifically discusses Peter Stoner's probability calculations.

By the way, your statement that "In the mathematical domain of probabilities, nothing is considered absolutely certain ... and nothing is considered impossible" is simply false. 0 and 1 are perfectly good probabilities. All contradictions have probability 0, all tautologies have probability 1, and the sum of the probabilities of statements which jointly describe all possibilities is 1. Your statement that "To be practical, scientists regard anything with a probability of less than 10-50 as so unlikely as to be regarded as absurd" is also erroneous. It is trivial to generate as many events with that probability (or lower) as you like with a random number generator.

I note in your newsletter that you proudly advertise your involvement with the Ancient Secrets of the Bible television programs. I hope you are aware of the dishonesty behind these productions. Members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (P.O. Box 750, Madison, WI 53701) were offered a chance to be in the most recent program as skeptics--but were offered prewritten bogus scripts to read from. When they protested, producer David Balsiger replied that "We don't try to provide balance. We have been contracted by CBS to produce an entertainment show, so the purpose is not to provide balance but entertainment. ... you have to understand that the average TV viewer in America is not that intelligent, so what they want is entertainment and not intellectual debate. Shows then have to be brought down on a level that will appeal to the broadest audience." (Quotations and account from Tom Malone, "What Price Fame?", Freethought Today, April 1993, pp. 4-5.) Bible skeptic and former Church of Christ minister Farrell Till was also offered an opportunity to be on the program, which he accepted on the condition he be allowed to write his own script. This condition was granted, but of the three interviews which were taped, one was cut completely and a second was edited beyond recognition. Someone else (obviously with someone with little integrity) read the pre-written script which Till was originally offered. In short, the program is a sham. You should be thoroughly embarrassed to be involved with such a dishonest enterprise.

As you have probably gathered by now, I am not a Christian. I am, however, concerned with honesty and accuracy on all sides of every issue. This is why I wrote an article criticizing some of my fellow opponents of creationism titled "How Not to Argue with Creationists," which appeared in Creation/Evolution issue 29, Winter 1991-1992, pp. 9- 21, and why I am on good terms with a number of creationists (such as those involved with the Australian Creation Science Foundation). I would hope that you likewise have respect for the truth and are willing to share it with your readers.

Sincerely,

Jim Lippard
Doctoral candidate in philosophy

[baggi]

i'm not asking about all the other stuff he makes.. just about the video.. can anyone (jewish) please translate ?

[Mosche]

i'm not asking about all the other stuff he makes.. just about the video.. can anyone (jewish) please translate ?

First, I AM JEWISH.

Second, that's my point: why not investigate this for yourself--that way you know if it's really true or not. I told you that it's not true, but that makes it a he said/she said thing. When these preachers make these claims, people accept the claims without investigating those claims for themselves; thus, the lies are perpetuated.

[baggi]

okay I tryed to translate the first 3 first names, and I came up with something like what's in the video.. before I go on I would like to see something from one that knows hebrew, thats why I came and ask it here on this forum.. would you do me a favor and translate it to me? to show that he is wrong..?

[baggi]

if it makes any sense at all ;)