Phosphor Bombs

[baggi]

haven't read much news lately, so was the israelis using illiegal weapons in gaza?

any news ?

[Yala]

haven't read much news lately, so was the israelis using illiegal weapons in gaza?

any news ?

Red Cross: Israel's use of white phosphorus not illegal (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_eu/eu_red_cross_white_phosphorus_2)

[Mediocrates]

We call them FLARES.

[jrpfeffer]

Don't let the question of legal and illegal weapons distract the issue. The enemies of Israel want Israel to use weapon which kill civilians and further their propaganda. Let the IDF commanders figure out which weapons to use. This is what they are paid for. This should not become a political issue.

Of course the enemies of Israel want to steal the narrative of this conflict and rather than it being about terrorists, its about Israel wanting to attack civilians with nasty weapons for fun. :rofl:

[Y. Shulamith]

We call them FLARES.


OIC, even the police use them here to prevent another accident from occurring when they are helping out with a first problem after nightfall.

Some phosphorus.....anything to lie about from these Islamofacists...:stick:

[bararallu]

Please phosphorus is in everything. no one dumped a load of white hot phosphorus on them. Their use is just the same. Every higher caliber automatic weapon has some phosphorus tagged rounds- they are called tracers. If they didn't exist a lot more cows and people would be mowed down by accident.

Liars and the lying lies they spread.

[ArthurCrandall]

http://i41.tinypic.com/28k27h1.jpg
tracer rounds

[wat0n]

http://i41.tinypic.com/28k27h1.jpg
tracer rounds

How can you exactly conclude that its WP only by looking a pic? Is it possible that any other weapons can be used like that instead of WP?

I mean, if we just look at pics, then the bonsai kittens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai_Kitten) do exist...

Anyway, I hope that an independent investigation on war crimes and attroricities commited by both sides will be able to confirm on wether Israel used WP illegally or not. And whoever did something wrong, should pay for it...

[bararallu]

What we call this in the colloquial: troll dropping.

[ArthurCrandall]

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt0309webwcover.pdf

Don't worry. They are antisemites. Just like everyone else.

[bararallu]

Hmmm.. How many negative reports have the HRW published concerning 1. Arabs 2. Muslims vs 3. Self Determined Jews. One may just ask, since the LEFT(tm) and white nationalist far right is so concerned about proportionality and statistics...

Nah, not out right anti-Semites, just your run of the mill white washers and apologists for terror. They merely fan Jew hate, rather than start the fire. But those that drop them, and the like, anonymously, in forums, without proportional identification of alleged war crimes on the other side,... those... are a little different.

[ArthurCrandall]

Hmmm.. How many negative reports have the HRW published concerning 1. Arabs 2. Muslims vs 3. Self Determined Jews. One may just ask, since the LEFT(tm) and white nationalist far right is so concerned about proportionality and statistics...

Nah, not out right anti-Semites, just your run of the mill white washers and apologists for terror. They merely fan Jew hate, rather than start the fire. But those that drop them, and the like, anonymously, in forums, without proportional identification of alleged war crimes on the other side,... those... are a little different.

Ironic isn't it? That you are trying to white wash this. Also ironic that you are an israeli war crimes apologist. You really like to put words in other people's mouthes don't you? It's also funny that you only care about proportionality when applies to assigning blame for war crimes. Not for civilian casualties or damage done. The only person who spreads "jew hate" here seems to be ethnic nationalists like yourself.

Why don't you try to refute what is in the report instead of sayings "oh its just a huge conspiracy to start a new holocaust!!!". Oh wait, you can't. You have no substance at all.

[wat0n]

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt0309webwcover.pdf

Don't worry. They are antisemites. Just like everyone else.

That's better. Yet I'd still follow their recommendations and wait for a final, comprehensive UN report on the war.

[Golem of Prague]

How can you exactly conclude that its WP only by looking a pic? Is it possible that any other weapons can be used like that instead of WP?
It's WP, but it's not an incendiary round. It's a smoke round.

WP use is not in and of itself illegal in warfare. It is illegal to use it as an incendiary, but it is legal- and widely used- as a smoke agent. What you see in the picture is a shell that airbursts omnidirectionally releasing small, lightweight smoking bundles- is not an incendiary round. It's base ejection smoke, a round used to set up smoke screens in built-up urban areas.

All You Wanted To Know About White Phosphorous (http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/01/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-white.html).

[Mosche]

[QUOTE][I]ronic that you are an israeli war crimes apologist.

There is no need to apologize for Israel's use of WP--even IF they did use it! Israel has never forfeited its right to use WP as a weapon (ergo, they are not bound by any international agreement to the contrary--this is also granted in the HRW report).

[P]roportionality...applies to assigning blame for war crimes. Not for civilian casualties or damage done.

Let's talk proportionality! Israel has been bombarded by a daily rainfall of rocketfire for YEARS. When the rockets come, there are no advance warnings for civilians to take cover--NONE. Additionally, Israel has endured the loss of civialian casualties in malls, in coffee shops, on buses, etc... as a result of suicide bombers; again, there are NO WARNINGS for civilians to take cover. As a matter of fact, civilians are the targets!

Now let's look at Israel. Israel's attack on Gaza ended in mid-January (days as opposed to years). If you are serious about proportionality--which I doubt--then you should be lobbying for Israel to renew the attacks, and continue the attacks for years! Additionally, if you are truly advocating "proportionality", you are proposing that Israel just drop arbitrary bombs on civilian populations in Gaza--that is what the rocket launcers do in Gaza; however, THAT IS JUST BARBARIC! Israel believes that civilians ought to be given EVERY CHANCE TO FLEE THE BOMBINGS! That is why Israel ANNOUNCED the areas that they would be targeting PRIOR to their assaults--allowing civilians (all persons, really) to flee the area.

The fact that you want Israel to behave in a barbaric manner really makes you appear evil!

The only person who spreads "jew hate" here seems to be ethnic nationalists like yourself.

Actually, you spread "Jew hate" when you expect Israel--a predominantly Jewish State--to behave in a manner that is one-sided.

[Mosche]

haven't read much news lately, so was the israelis using illiegal weapons in gaza?

any news ?

removed by author.

[baggi]

troll!


why do you say that.. im on your side, and think the israelis have been to gentle in the last war, and withrew way to early..

[wat0n]

It's WP, but it's not an incendiary round. It's a smoke round.

So there aren't any other weapons that could have been used instead of WP in that particular case? Sorry for insisting on this, but I find quite amazing that somehow people can turn into forensic experts just by looking pics.

I think that the accusations are serious enough for being much more rigorous before leaving conclusions.

WP use is not in and of itself illegal in warfare. It is illegal to use it as an incendiary, but it is legal- and widely used- as a smoke agent. What you see in the picture is a shell that airbursts omnidirectionally releasing small, lightweight smoking bundles- is not an incendiary round. It's base ejection smoke, a round used to set up smoke screens in built-up urban areas.

All You Wanted To Know About White Phosphorous (http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/01/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-white.html).

Well, that's debatable considering that it has multiple uses.

By the way, are there any ICJ rulings regarding WP? I think that there was a case regarding Americans using it in Iraq in 2005, right? How did that end?

I'm asking because even though WP can be used as a flare and can be justified to use it EVEN in urban areas if the military gain surpasses the damage done to civilians, it's also true that you can't avoid collateral damage and thus its usage in cities can be seen as a indiscriminate attack. So, this means that we should look to previous rulings to see how the ICJ understands this...

[bararallu]

Why don't you try to refute what is in the report instead of sayings

Why don't you refute the charge of being a Jew hating troll instead of pushing propaganda talking points which are refuted before they are even posted.

And it's ironic that you mention "ethnic nationalism", since your explicit position is writ large all over stormfront.

[bararallu]

By the way, are there any ICJ rulings regarding WP? I think that there was a case regarding Americans using it in Iraq in 2005, right?

I haven't seen this case, can you link it?

[Mediocrates]

Even the Red Cross debunked their own claims of this. The case has been closed on this subject for quite some time.

[wat0n]

I haven't seen this case, can you link it?

Doesn't matter, the only thing close to a ICJ ruling on the case I've found is this: http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/icc/2006/02ocampo.htm

And it's still not about WP, but rather about the Iraq War as a whole...

Anyone knows about any ICJ ruling on the use of WP in any conflict?

[Mosche]

why do you say that.. im on your side, and think the israelis have been to gentle in the last war, and withrew way to early..


I am sorry if I misjudged you--VERY Sorry! I looked at some of your previous posts, and it appeared to me that you were starting new threads with one sentence statements that were meant to inflame. If your real intention is serious <HONEST> debate then I humbly ask for your forgiveness. I will remove my previous post.

[bararallu]

Doesn't matter, the only thing close to a ICJ ruling on the case I've found is this: http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/icc/2006/02ocampo.htm

And it's still not about WP, but rather about the Iraq War as a whole...

Anyone knows about any ICJ ruling on the use of WP in any conflict?

It's a GC issue, ICJ doesnt rule on most of that IIRC.

BTW- if this is the only time/place this issue is documented and in reality propagandized then naturally other questions will be forthcoming.

[ArthurCrandall]

There is no need to apologize for Israel's use of WP--even IF they did use it!
Yes because admitting to being wrong is a sign of weakness... Or perhaps you believe that nothing israel ever can do to palestinians can be considered wrong. Due to them being palestinians and all.

Israel has never forfeited its right to use WP as a weapon (ergo, they are not bound by any international agreement to the contrary--this is also granted in the HRW report).

All fine and dandy. You advocate that due to a state not signing a global agreement on chemical weapons that they can avoid the consequences when they use them. You then set the moral ground work for terrorists or other state actors to use chemical weapons inside israel. You don't care though since you care more about land then jews.


Let's talk proportionality! Israel has been bombarded by a daily rainfall of rocketfire for YEARS. When the rockets come, there are no advance warnings for civilians to take cover--NONE.

Does israel not have radar? Do they not have sirens? This is a joke of an argument when the israeli census has concluded that more israelis have been killed from their own fireworks then hammas rockets. Semantics games are for people who have no substantive argument to defend the inexcusable.


Additionally, Israel has endured the loss of civialian casualties in malls, in coffee shops, on buses, etc... as a result of suicide bombers; again, there are NO WARNINGS for civilians to take cover. As a matter of fact, civilians are the targets!

It's nice of you to bring up suicide bombings to dehumanize palestinians. I mean, how else can you seriously counter the statistics that show that palestinians have been the ones victimized unless you use weasel words to paint them as evil. I guess those palestinians where warned before being burned to death from above. To use this as a justification of white phosphorus on civilians. That takes some nerve!

Now let's look at Israel. Israel's attack on Gaza ended in mid-January (days as opposed to years).

Has the blockade been lifted? If not, then gaza is still under attack.

If you are serious about proportionality--which I doubt--then you should be lobbying for Israel to renew the attacks, and continue the attacks for years!

I don't give a crap about proportionality as you define it in your semantics games just like you don't give a crap about the consequences of israeli military actions. But since you brought it up. Has the blockade been lifted?

Additionally, if you are truly advocating "proportionality", you are proposing that Israel just drop arbitrary bombs on civilian populations in Gaza--that is what the rocket launcers do in Gaza

The idf killed more jews during the current military action then all the rockets hamas lobbed at israel all these years. That is a fact. What should be the proportional response to the idf? Kill 1,500 idf soilders? Or does proportionality own count when it has to do with intent but not with actual results? Since the only thing you care about is intent and not the consequences of actions.

however, THAT IS JUST BARBARIC! Israel believes that civilians ought to be given EVERY CHANCE TO FLEE THE BOMBINGS! That is why Israel ANNOUNCED the areas that they would be targeting PRIOR to their assaults--allowing civilians (all persons, really) to flee the area.

Where do people flee from when they are in a place under seige? Where no safe haven exists? You know what is barbaric? Saying that starting an election war is humane. Having children subsist on bird food lest they starve. I would post some gaza pictures. But you have already seen them and dismissed them i bet.

The fact that you want Israel to behave in a barbaric manner really makes you appear evil!
Actually, you spread "Jew hate" when you expect Israel--a predominantly Jewish State--to behave in a manner that is one-sided.
Israel can behave barbaric on it's own without me. As long as it has apologists like yourself it will behave with impunity towards the people it occupies. You apologists enable israel and advocate it being the "jewish state". Thus creating the illusion that an attack on israel is an attack on jews and vice versa. This in turn creates an atmosphere of hostility towards jews worldwide whenever israel massacre's civilians. You really don't give a damn about jews. If you did you would stop pushing that line of thought and actively pursue peace.

[ArthurCrandall]

PS if anyone actually read the hrw paper it showed that it was fair and unbiased when it cited hamas using a wp weapon of its own. Ironically it was made with material from a dude israeli munition.

[wat0n]

It's a GC issue, ICJ doesnt rule on most of that IIRC.

BTW- if this is the only time/place this issue is documented and in reality propagandized then naturally other questions will be forthcoming.

Nope, it isn't. There was at least one more scandal on American usage of WP in Iraq.

[Reffo]

Does israel not have radar? Do they not have sirens? This is a joke of an argument when the israeli census has concluded that more israelis have been killed from their own fireworks then hammas rockets. Semantics games are for people who have no substantive argument to defend the inexcusable. You live in Philadelphia right Arthur?

I wonder how your fellow Philadelphians would react to you if a hostile foreign group say from Cuba would start culling Philadelphians and if you'd tell them what you are telling us above? Say one Philadelphian dead today, two dead in a couple of weeks and millions traumatised on a daily basis through ineffective but daily rocket fire attacks and this going on year in year out for 8 years....

PS
Dare I ask? Please try and be honest...

[Golem of Prague]

So there aren't any other weapons that could have been used instead of WP in that particular case? Sorry for insisting on this, but I find quite amazing that somehow people can turn into forensic experts just by looking pics.

I think that the accusations are serious enough for being much more rigorous before leaving conclusions.
It's WP. The IDF said it was WP. Shell cases were photographed.

Well, that's debatable considering that it has multiple uses.
WP smoke shells can only be used as incendiaries when fired into closed spaces for "smoking out" those sitting there. The shell in the picture is not designed as an incendiary; on larger versions you can see those bundles bounce off the roof of the car. Even the lightest cover would easily protect against them.

By the way, are there any ICJ rulings regarding WP? I think that there was a case regarding Americans using it in Iraq in 2005, right? How did that end?
We don't hear about it anymore; 'nuff said.

Does israel not have radar? Do they not have sirens?
We do have radars and sirens. There's a 15 seconds warning, usually. How does it make it ok to shoot rockets at civilians?

This is a joke of an argument when the israeli census has concluded that more israelis have been killed from their own fireworks then hammas rockets.
That is your excuse for Palestinian attempts to murder civilians? They're poor shots so it doesn't count?

Much more people in your country die from car accidents than at the hands of serial killers- should the police stop hunting down serial killers? You're advancing a completely cretinous argument here.

Has the blockade been lifted?
The blockade was imposed in reaction to the rocket fire, not the other way round. Has the rocket fire stopped?
P.S. Regarding the HRW report. It doesn't claim that the use of WP is in and of itself illegal. It says Israel has used WP "improperly"- meaning that WP smoke shells were fired in populated areas. The catch being, of course, that all of the the fighting took place in populated areas because that's where the Hamas hides and that's where they launch their rockets from. Basically, it's yet another case of HRW being obilvious to the differences between conventional warfare anda terrorist organization which operates from civilian areas.

They make a bizarre claim that non-WP based alternative smoke shells were available. I've made a search on what smoke agent they meant, and it seems that all available alternatives are aggressively toxic and damaging on skin contact or when breathed in. There's apparently a good reason why all Western armies insist on using WP, of all smoke agents.

[Reffo]

Has the blockade been lifted?
The blockade was imposed in reaction to the rocket fire, not the other way round. Has the rocket fire stopped?

A blockade was imposed after Hamas defeated Fatah in the Battle of Gaza (2007), when Egypt and Israel partially sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on their side.

The 2007–2009 blockade of the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_blockade)

And Hamas is still in power so the blockade will stay at least until Hamas agrees to abide by past agreements that the PA signed on behalf of the Palestinian people.

[Oberon]

By the way, are there any ICJ rulings regarding WP? I think that there was a case regarding Americans using it in Iraq in 2005, right? How did that end?

I'm asking because even though WP can be used as a flare and can be justified to use it EVEN in urban areas if the military gain surpasses the damage done to civilians, it's also true that you can't avoid collateral damage and thus its usage in cities can be seen as a indiscriminate attack. So, this means that we should look to previous rulings to see how the ICJ understands this...

I wouldn't pay any more attention to ICJ rulings or opinions than I would UN 'resolutions'; they rotate judges among the same countries that make up the UN, more or less, and the judges form the same political blocs among themselves; i.e. it's just another politicized joke. What rulings it gives out will be determined entirely by whatever the makeup of the current court benches are, not any real concern about international law.

Current members:

Current Members

President

* Hisashi Owada (Japan)

Vice-President

* Peter Tomka (Slovakia)

Judges

* Shi Jiuyong (China)
* Abdul G. Koroma (Sierra Leone)
* Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh (Jordan)
* Thomas Buergenthal (United States of America)
* Bruno Simma (Germany)
* Ronny Abraham (France)
* Kenneth Keith (New Zealand)
* Bernardo Sepúlveda-Amor (Mexico)
* Mohamed Bennouna (Morocco)
* Leonid Skotnikov (Russian Federation)
* Antônio A. Cançado Trindade (Brazil)
* Abdulqawi Ahmed Yusuf (Somalia)
* Christopher Greenwood (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)

Registrar

* Philippe Couvreur (Belgium)

http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=2&p3=1

The real issue is ...'Do You Feel Lucky Today?' when it comes to ICJ rulings. No Court that was really serious about unbiased justice would have reps from Somalia, Sierra Leone, or narco states like Mexico on it. I mean, please, give us all a break here ... This is the judicial equivalent of the Keystone Kops.

[Mosche]

[QUOTE][P]erhaps you believe that nothing israel ever can do to palestinians can be considered wrong. Due to them being palestinians and all.
It's nice of you to bring up suicide bombings to dehumanize palestinians.

Great logic there! I mention suicide bombings, therefore all Palestinians are dehumanized! To say such a stupid thing is to paint all Palestinians with a single brush-stroke. Sir, you are a RACIST!

I don't give a crap about proportionality

This statement alone is enough to brand you an anti-Semite. Additionally, this statement perfectly illustrates that you have absolutely NO DESIRE FOR PEACE.

The idf killed more jews during the current military action then all the rockets hamas lobbed at israel all these years. That is a fact.

This is a bold statement--where are the statistics to back it up? I don't care about "what you've heard," I want to see the so-called facts: How many Jews were killed by the IDF during the recent military action vs. how many Jews were killed by rockets and, OH YEAH, suicide bombers.

You know what is barbaric? Having children subsist on bird food lest they starve.

Have you EVER been to Gaza? Israel? I have, many times! I have NEVER seen kids eating bird seed--unless you mean sunflower seeds, in which case Israeli kids eat them too! I have seen kids dressed in pseudo-military garb proclaiming the inevitable destruction of Israel.

Additionally, since you've obviously never been to Gaza, you might be interested to know that Gaza, like every other place on earth, has affluent neighborhoods. The people who live in those neighborhoods, however, use their wealth to propogate an on-going terror campaign where poor and uneducated Palestinians are used as pawns--not that you really care about Palestinians, since you have already proven that you are a racist.

I would post some gaza pictures. But you have already seen them and dismissed them i bet.

Spoken like someone who has never been to Gaza! I, on the other hand, have been to Gaza, as I stated before; therefore, I don't need photo shop to form my opinions.

You really don't give a damn about jews.

Funny that you say such a horrible thing during Pesach! It's because I care about my people that I support Israel. It's because I will NEVER forget the attrocities of the past that I care about Israel. It's because of people like YOU--people who don't "give a crap about proportionality"-- that I care about Israel.

For what it's worth, I will no longer respond to your baiting--EXCEPT FOR THE SO-CALLED FACTS ON THE IDF THAT I WILL INVESTIGATE IF YOU OFFER THEM.

[Oberon]

I think the world should see a lot more pictures of Gaza, myself. The faux 'Peace Left' propaganda has most of the world convinced the 'palestinians' are living in caves and tents and scavenging for grass and rats to survive. Here are some pics of Gaza that quite a few people here where I live I know were amazed at:

http://www.boti.ru/node/54353

Oh look, there is a swiming pool ... and over there is a fountain ... How can this be, when the Israelis are stealing so much water from then their children are dying from dehydrations? Oh and over here, over there, hmmm, just about everywhere are nice green parks and gardens.

There are a lot of Americans who should live so well. Where can we sign them up for 'Arab Refugee' status? I hear all you need is to hang around a UN service center for two years and Presto!!! You are now a Refugee!!! Congratulations!!!

[bararallu]

Mosche,

What do you think... should we hold our breath until this troll from philly produces a HRW report on Arab war crimes?

[ranchcer]

The promised Land of the chosen ones has always caused stress among other people. The rest is circumstantial..

Arthur, i share your anti-war sentiments and I believe that most Jews see war as a human catastrophe and consider themselves first beneficiaries of a sustainable peace.

No one rejoices in the death of any Palestinian but Hamas and their sponsors are tough nuts to crack and if they fooled the palestinians into electing them as their leader, their share responsibility for their plight.
Fom the safe heaven of our western homes, lets put ourselves into the shoes
of Israeli youths who have been under siege for decades with so much hostility on their borders. They too have the noble aspirations to get on with their lives.

[Mosche]

I think the world should see a lot more pictures of Gaza, myself. The faux 'Peace Left' propaganda has most of the world convinced the 'palestinians' are living in caves and tents and scavenging for grass and rats to survive. Here are some pics of Gaza that quite a few people here where I live I know were amazed at:

http://www.boti.ru/node/54353

Oh look, there is a swiming pool ... and over there is a fountain ... How can this be, when the Israelis are stealing so much water from then their children are dying from dehydrations? Oh and over here, over there, hmmm, just about everywhere are nice green parks and gardens.

There are a lot of Americans who should live so well. Where can we sign them up for 'Arab Refugee' status? I hear all you need is to hang around a UN service center for two years and Presto!!! You are now a Refugee!!! Congratulations!!!


Where are the bird seed photos?:rofl:

Bararallu, I wouldn't hold my breath--this "lover of peace" has already admitted that he cares nothing about proportionality. It's almost like watching all of the violent anti-war protests all over again. The great thing about these idiots is that they are beginning to show their true colors to the rest of the world!

[Reffo]

It's nice of you to bring up suicide bombings to dehumanize palestinians. I love this one, it is deliciously ironic coming from one of the chattering class who specialize in dehumanizing Israel at every opportunity.... His own comments on this thread are a testimony to that effect

And they don't even perceive their own double standard when they make such comments. :lol:

[Reffo]

Where do people flee from when they are in a place under seige?Is he suggesting that Israel carpet bombed Gaza in the same way that both sides were carpet bombing each other's civilian populations in WW2? Has this guy got any clue? Or is he just driven by pure prejudice, ignorance and hatred of Israel?

I'll give him a clue: The Gazans should stop their violence against Israeli civilians, then the Gazans won't have to flee anywhere. But if they insist on their right to violence (as they do) then they can always flee to areas where no fighting is going on in Gaza because even when Israel, responds with violence, they have never carpet bombed the population...

[bararallu]

Reffo,

He is suggesting this and other immense exaggerations. He thinks that siting HRW gives him standing. I've asked him to provide us links to HRW reports on Palestinian war crimes. Not to say that the HRW arent outright hypocrites when it comes to collecting facts on Palestinian methods of warfare. So far nothing.

[Reffo]

bararallu

At best, HRW and their ilk quietly mutter something about Hamas transgressions and I mean quietly and mutter, very occasionally... then they quickly move onto their favourite subject and repeat ad nauseum "Israeli war crimes"..."Israeli war crimes"..."Israeli war crimes"... Of course when one scrutinizes their histrionics, more often than not one finds them to be shameless lies (a la Gaza school allegation) or just baseless allegations which they cannot substantiate.

Last but not least, they are not shy to level accusations against Israel which may be true but they forget to mention that virtually all other western armies follow the exact same practices in their wars against similar enemies...

Oh well, you can't cure hypocrisy and hypocrites :rolleyes:

[Oberon]

Where are the bird seed photos?

Hmmmm ... I can't find one at the moment.

How about photos of a seedy bird?

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/images/corrie01.jpg

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

I like to point out the well dressed children, some even wearing school uniforms, and obviously they have access to good dentists. It's always good to contrast this pic with pics from Darfur camps and of course Egyptian children and pics from other bastions of Islamic Truth.

[Tonto]

Willie Pete (white phosphorus) is legal under Geneva's Conventions (there are several) and used extensively by the US military. Good stuff too! Causes casualties instead of outright kills so it ties up valuable resources that won't be used against the attacking force. Also very effective in slowing down people attacking you. I always liked it, but it is scary! Napalm is the only thing scarier to me, but I like napalm too. Kept me safe a couple times.

[bararallu]

Napalm is the only thing scarier to me, but I like napalm too. Kept me safe a couple times.

If there was no Napalm, Egypt would have made major inroads into southern Israel in '73.

[Mosche]

Oberon...Nice picture of a seedy bird! I read the article link that you provided, and let's just say that it continues to amaze me how many times the Palestinians and thier do-gooders will manipulate photos and stories in the name of "peace"!

[Mediocrates]

That's Rachel Corrie if I'm not mistaken.

[Reffo]

Jerusalem-based watchdog NGO Monitor today released a report analyzing NGO coverage of the recent Gaza conflict. The report documents the over 500 statements released by over 50 NGOs in the month covering the fighting and its immediate aftermath.

NGO Monitor accused the groups behind the statements of devoting minimal attention to Israeli human rights and casualties, as well as the "consistent manipulation of international law by NGOs in their statements on Gaza."

In 2008 alone, they wrote, NGOs issued over 300 statements in condemnation of Israel's policy regarding Hamas-controlled Gaza. This contrasts with a handful of statements condemning over 6,500 rockets fired on Israel from Gaza since disengagement in 2005.

NGO Monitor's Executive Director, Prof. Gerald Steinberg commented, "The NGO campaign in the Gaza conflict further erodes what remains of the moral foundation and the universality of the human rights movement. The consistent attempt to demonize Israel in the media and in the courts while turning a blind eye to the illegal activities of Hamas demonstrates that many human rights groups have lost their moral compass."

The organization warned that anti-Israel activities are likely "to continue through the persistent attempts by NGOs to bring 'war crimes' charges against Israeli military and political leaders in international law courts,' noting that "NGOs including Adalah, Amnesty International and Ittijah have already called for charges to be brought over Gaza."

'No probe for blatant Hamas war crimes' (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304687815&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[Reffo]

Why are the NGO's so hostile to Israel? Of course there is more than one reason but here are a series of clues:

One only has to ask the question: Why do these NGOs exist? Would they exist if they would not have their various wretched clients for example the Palestinian refugees? Answer: Of course not!

The next question is: Who controls these clients? Answer: The various predatory governments/groups which in the case of Gaza happens to be Hamas.

And the last question is: What happens to the NGOs when they make life difficult for the likes of Hamas? Answer: The NGOs get booted in their proverbial behinds, at best they get sidelined and at worst their volunteers get kidnapped, injured or killed.

Anyone who doubts this should look at what happened recently in Sudan after the ICJ attempted to take on Sudan's "fearless leader" ...... come to think of it, what IS the latest on that one? Things seem to have quitened down after the NGOs were booted out. The last thing that I recall is that the initial bravado has died down and was replaced by a lot of pleading by international organisations .... I bet they are saying to themselves: "What were we thinking.... ? We should have stuck to our old ways....it's a lot easier to do more Israel bashing than to take on the entire Arab world, backed by the Muslim bloc and oil...."?

[Mediocrates]

An NGO is a legal entity. Many of them exist SOLELY to exploit media & international law according to the needs of the major funding sources.

[Tonto]

That's Rachel Corrie if I'm not mistaken.

If that's Rachel Corrie, she was dead 6 years ago, so this is a real old photo or she rose from the dead for a photo shoot. Either way, she was an idiot to put herself in such a position. I consider her death a suicide by stupidity.

[bararallu]

Yes thats her.

[Mosche]

[S]he was an idiot to put herself in such a position. I consider her death a suicide by stupidity.

Well put!

[bararallu]

a candidate for the Darwin Awards: Dying idiotically under influence of Jew hate.

[Reffo]

The above question appears in the Frequently Asked Questions of the HRW site and their answer appears below. It too gives a clue why an NGO like HRW takes the stance that it does about the Middle East conflict...

We try to strike a balance between working in countries where the most atrocious human rights violations occur and those where we can bring about the most change. In assessing trouble spots, we take into consideration the severity of the crimes being committed, the numbers of those affected, and our potential to have impact. Our thematic divisions, such as those working on women's rights and children's rights, typically look at specific problems in one or more countries that reflect global concerns. We consider whether our researchers will be able to obtain current and accurate information, either by going to the site of the abuse or by interviewing refugees, exiles, and other knowledgeable sources. We also are in constant communication with reliable local organizations. Although we outline a plan of action each year, we stay flexible, knowing that unforeseen crises will unfold and that we will sometimes need to quickly deploy emergency researchers. The more resources we have, the more trouble spots we cover. The sentence in bold says it all .... the rest is BS!

So, where would one think they could hope to bring about most change? Amongst autocratic, violence prone dictatorships/theocracies supported by 400 million Arabs and the entire Muslim world, where there are great risks to themselves and to their cause if they 'rock the boat'? Or in a tiny relatively isolated democracy like Israel?

HRW claims to have 275 full time employees world wide. I am sure that some of them are idealists who only want a better world. But I am equally sure that their decision makers are well paid, shrewd pragmatists who know how to play hardball politics and who know what they have to do to survive ... And I am sure that it is not too hard for them to convince even their idealists that they need to be seen to be effective, in order to survive and that the end justifies the means (isn't that what all idealists did throughout history to justify their less than perfect actions?).... So if it takes a bit of smearing of an easy target such as the Jewish state which is already hated by 1.3 billion Muslims (and some others too), even idealists can convince themselves that a bit of smearing goes a long way for 'a good cause' ...

.....And I doubt whether other NGOs are any different...

PS
No sane person claims that ANY country is perfect. Neither is Israel but is it really as imperfect as the NGOs are trying to make it appear? Does it really justify the amount of attention and condemnation that it actually receives? Any sane rational person, who has no axe to grind, should ask themselves: How come Israel has been singled out by the NGOs to the extent that it has been when at any given time there are at least another dozen trouble spots in the world where there is much greater human suffering and much greater human rights violations yet Israel is singled out by the NGOs with much greater frequency (see my earlier post #46). I find it suspicious and I think that most people who are not prejudiced find it suspicious too, or at least they ought to..... if they are thinking people that is!

[Mediocrates]

Once again I will point back to the seminal work; "Unrestricted Warfare" (available on Amazon or as a free download online) published by the PLA (Mainland Chinese People's Liberation Army) back in the '90's. It articulates a schema through which war is fought by ALL means both military and non military. One of the axes described is "International Law and NGOs" as a mode of a weaker force exploiting a much more powerful opponents very nature against them. And this is not restricted to weak para-military states alone. For example, France considers one of their cornerstones of foreign policy to be their role in the UN and their ability to use international law as a tool to wield for their own agenda.

[Reffo]

In a BBC television interview, Ron Prosor, Israel's ambassador to Britain, has acknowledged the difficulty of the battle when the suffering of Palestinians is dominating the debate.

"In a sense, it is very hard for me, but I know that our nation has to defend itself and its citizens," he said. The killing of 40 Palestians in a school in Jabaliya may just have persuaded Israel's security cabinet that it was time to hoist the white flag in the war for international public opinion.

But subsequently "The killing of 40 Palestians in a school in Jabaliya" was uncovered and proven as a lie. The reality turned out to be that no one in the school was hurt. Israeli forces were attacked from the vicinity of the school, the Israelis returned fire and killed the terrorists as well as some bystanders (not in the school). UN personnel were fully aware of the circumstances yet they did everything in their power to suppress the truth .... a standard operating procedure of the UN and the NGOs in Gaza, they are part of the propaganda toolset of the likes of Hamas....

I suppose as Medio says, there is nothing new in the use of propaganda in wars. What does seem to be new though is the use of supposedly neutral international humanitarian organisations by one side against the other through blackmail and sheer political thuggery. I believe that this will ultimately do irreparable damage to those organisations. Why? Because the Jews are history's canaries in the mine. These disasters always start by affecting the Jews first, and not too many tend to worry at that stage but the practice will spread and the end result will destroy the credibility of the UN and the NGOs. It's as sure as night follows day ....

[ArthurCrandall]

Reffo,

He is suggesting this and other immense exaggerations. He thinks that siting HRW gives him standing. I've asked him to provide us links to HRW reports on Palestinian war crimes. Not to say that the HRW arent outright hypocrites when it comes to collecting facts on Palestinian methods of warfare. So far nothing.

Sorry i was away:) Even though it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, The HRW report i provided showed one incident where hamas used WP in the previous conflict. To bad you didn't spend anytime to read it. Instead you just hurled insults.

[ArthurCrandall]

An NGO is a legal entity. Many of them exist SOLELY to exploit media & international law according to the needs of the major funding sources.

Like "NGO Monitor"?

[Mediocrates]

No not really. But NGO Watch is a project of AEI and FSLPPS. There are 2 million NGOs in the US today. NGO Monitor is a project of JCPA and has a fairly specific agenda.

[bararallu]

Sorry i was away:) Even though it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, The HRW report i provided showed one incident where hamas used WP in the previous conflict. To bad you didn't spend anytime to read it. Instead you just hurled insults.

I asked you to provide us with apples to apples. Show us # of reports published by the HRW that depicts Arabs as violators vs Jews. We will then judge what is fair or not, real or not. As is it's little less than propaganda and little more than Iranians talking at Durban II, enabled in majority to destroy Jewish self determination.

[ArthurCrandall]

I asked you to provide us with apples to apples. Show us # of reports published by the HRW that depicts Arabs as violators vs Jews. We will then judge what is fair or not, real or not. As is it's little less than propaganda and little more than Iranians talking at Durban II, enabled in majority to destroy Jewish self determination.

What does "arabs" have to do with palestinians again? What does this line of thought have anything to do with reality? Oh yeah nothing. If i wanted to discuss "arabs" occupying israel then i would goto the "arabforum". I'm here to discuss israeli policy. Too bad you are so out there that you even insinuate that iran runs the UN :rofl: .

Now to the meat of your ignorant post. First off, i do not need to prove another people has done wrong to provide proof that a nation's government has done wrong. It is mighty big of you to frame it in a "jews" vs "arabs" debate. Too bad i don't bye it and too bad you are too much of an ignorant racist, or even worse you did this on purpose, to understand why framing it like this is wrong.

Second, who are you to judge what is fair or not? And what is real or not? What makes you special? You sound like that iranian nut job who is a holocaust denier with that line of thinking. I guess ethnic nationalism always brings out the fascist in people.

Now tell me, do you believe palestinians, deserve self determination? If so, then do you agree that the most common agreed upon boarder (the green line) should be the boarder between the two nations? If not, do you support the settler's in there effort in ethnic cleansing in the territories? And if you do not agree on the two state solution or anything less then palestinian self determination, then why do you hate israelis and wish for them to be in perpetual war?

I could show you pictures of children and women burned with WP all day long. I am sure you have already seen them anyways. But i guess they don't register to you. You see it as a curiosity, not as a crime to be accounted for. After all, to you and yours, they are just palestinians. Good thing lieberman and company know arabs eh?

Anyways you bring nothing to this conversation. Delusional, racist, condescending, and paranoid does not suit honest discourse.

[ArthurCrandall]

No not really. But NGO Watch is a project of AEI and FSLPPS. There are 2 million NGOs in the US today. NGO Monitor is a project of JCPA and has a fairly specific agenda.

So they are not NGO's? What are their specific agendas btw? Also could you define most to me. As in what percent do you think the 2 million ngo's in the usa are exploiting international law? Please list them as well.


I would add in media as well, but, it would be embarrassing to bring up MEMRI and Camera into this conversation. BUT if you want to strive for completion. Please list those as well.

[Tonto]

So Art, let me get this straight. You are against "willie pete" because it does not discriminate and splatters and burns whatever it hits with no regard to sex, age, religion, race or whatever. So, in essence, palestinians get to shoot unaimed rockets, target bus loads of innocent Jews with suicide bombs and attack with total nondiscrimination while Israel is supposed to hunt down the individuals they want to kill and make sure to be absolutely sure that no others that may be associating with that individual is hurt when they kill the bastage they're after. Have I got your game plan correct? Do you have any idea how idiotic that sounds? Personally, if I was directing the IDF, it would be carpet bombing with napalm and WP until they begged to surrender and to be slaves to Israel forever.....or annihilated...whatever they choose. Either option is acceptable. Now my plan would definitely get some results! Quite frankly, as I have observed the conflict, the time for someone to just take the bull by the horns and "take care of business" is over ripe! Get to it and get it done.

[shravan]

Personally, if I was directing the IDF, it would be carpet bombing with napalm and WP until they begged to surrender and to be slaves to Israel forever.....or annihilated...whatever they choose.

I would have stopped the water & electricity supply. And would have blamed that on HAMAS after 96 hrs....;)

[Mediocrates]

So they are not NGO's? What are their specific agendas btw? Also could you define most to me. As in what percent do you think the 2 million ngo's in the usa are exploiting international law? Please list them as well.


I would add in media as well, but, it would be embarrassing to bring up MEMRI and Camera into this conversation. BUT if you want to strive for completion. Please list those as well.


What actually is your point? That so called NGO's only have an agenda when it's against the Peaceful Palestinians of Peace and everyone else is selling cotton candy?

For instance, the nation of France openly says that its role in the UN is a cornerstone of its foreign policy. That when economics and military force don't work that 'lawfare' and active participation in what they themselves call 'transnational bodies' is a bona fide extension of their national aims. Similarly the ICC, when it bothers to function at all, cherry picks those cases where it has a reasonably good case that won't be criticised in the west.

I'm not going to try to prove the nonexistance of something for you - if you have a point, make it.

[bararallu]

What does "arabs" have to do with palestinians again?

Palestinians are Arabs. Or do you have to have to be demonstrated that fact? everything else you bloviate about is irrelevant. Still waiting...

[ArthurCrandall]

What actually is your point? That so called NGO's only have an agenda when it's against the Peaceful Palestinians of Peace and everyone else is selling cotton candy?

For instance, the nation of France openly says that its role in the UN is a cornerstone of its foreign policy. That when economics and military force don't work that 'lawfare' and active participation in what they themselves call 'transnational bodies' is a bona fide extension of their national aims. Similarly the ICC, when it bothers to function at all, cherry picks those cases where it has a reasonably good case that won't be criticised in the west.

I'm not going to try to prove the nonexistance of something for you - if you have a point, make it.

Wow and you get angry at me even though the two other posters declared that they want to exterminate the palestinians with a big old genocide. Just tell me what percent of ngo's you consider much and list all the biased ones out of the two million in the usa. I didn't ask for france or the icc. I just asked for the usa. It's not me who brought this allegation up, it was you. THe burden of proof is on you on this and if you can't provide then you are full of it.

[Mediocrates]

Now you're just ranting. Still you don't have a specific point.

[ArthurCrandall]

Now you're just ranting. Still you don't have a specific point.

No i am answering multiple individuals. You made the claim of "most of 2 million ngos in usa blahblah" now all i ask is for you to back it up. Why is it so hard to back it up?

[bararallu]

And you are a sperger idiot who lives through israel because you are a failure at everything else in real life. Why don't you answer any of my questions or counter any of my actual points instead of reiterating racist talking points? Still waiting for some of substance from you... I guess i shouldn't get my hopes up though..:rofl:

Really, why don't you back that up Aurthur... please link to some facts.

[Mediocrates]

No, go back and check. I said there are more than 2 million NGO's in the US today. To assume that they exist to have no specific political agenda is incorrect. Not even the Boy Scouts of America stays out of politics.

[shravan]

Who needs human rights when they are just exterminating subhumans... right? Yeah never reply to my posts again you fascist lil shit.

Cambodia, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Congo, Dufar ... :scratch:

Seems like Humans Rights people are busy in Kashmir & Gaza ONLY.

[ArthurCrandall]

No, go back and check. I said there are more than 2 million NGO's in the US today. To assume that they exist to have no specific political agenda is incorrect. Not even the Boy Scouts of America stays out of politics.

yes but you also said


An NGO is a legal entity. Many of them exist SOLELY to exploit media & international law according to the needs of the major funding sources.

see i did read. Now tell me how most of these 2 million exsist solely to exploit international law. Then list them.

[ArthurCrandall]

Cambodia, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Congo, Dufar ... :scratch:

Seems like Humans Rights people are busy in Kashmir & Gaza ONLY.

Ok fine... here ya go since ya are such a humanitarian..
http://www.hrw.org/en/asia/cambodia
http://www.hrw.org/en/africa/rwanda
http://www.hrw.org/en/europecentral-asia/russia (cuz chechnya is a part of russia durrr)
http://www.hrw.org/en/africa/democratic-republic-congo
http://www.hrw.org/en/africa/sudan (because darfur is a part of the sudan.. durrrr)

and last but not least yugoslavia... which has ceased to exsist.. Please go help those people in those links i have provided. I already do my part by donating to doctors without boarders. I hope you donate and help those folks instead of just trying to hijack their plight to score sick and twisted political points.

[shravan]

Ok fine... here ya go since ya are such a humanitarian..

Tell me how many people were Killed in those Places in the last 25 years.

[Mediocrates]

yes but you also said



see i did read. Now tell me how most of these 2 million exsist solely to exploit international law. Then list them.

AI and HRW for two.

[NewsGuy]

ArthurCrandall booted for personal attacks.

No point in responding to him further.

[Mediocrates]

They already using the same phosphor bomb canard against the US in Afghanistan. Apparently fighting the Taliban is now considered a racist genocidal act. I say leave Afcrackistan and let it plummet all the way back to hell.

[Mediocrates]

Oh look the Taliban use WP as a real weapon. Where's the outcry?

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20090524.aspx

[maven]

They already using the same phosphor bomb canard against the US in Afghanistan. Apparently fighting the Taliban is now considered a racist genocidal act. I say leave Afcrackistan and let it plummet all the way back to hell.The Pakistani army are using phosporous shells in Swat. The Sri Lankan army used them on the Tamils.

George Galloway had a comrade from the Sri Lankan government on his show tonight on Press TV Iran. Interesting is'int it that his friends Stalin, Saddam and socialist Sri Lanka can do worse than Israel is accused of in Gaza but it's ok with the left?

[Brody15]

PS if anyone actually read the hrw paper it showed that it was fair and unbiased when it cited hamas using a wp weapon of its own. Ironically it was made with material from a dude israeli munition.

Oh, so what you are saying is that Hamas made illegal WP weapons from Israeli smoke rounds. Good find.