how about some SOLUTIONS !!

[cabcxx]

both sides seem to be dug in .. pointing fingers
the same old mantra ..
what would both sides be willing to do to establish PEACE ??

everyone's gonna have to give up something:

Islam must give up:
kill yourself and another .. go straight to heaven without judgement, into the arms of 72 lovely babes.

This should be easy, cos it is not found in the Qu'ran.

Israel must give up:
"this land is mine, God gave this land to me "

not so easy .. cos it is found in the book: Genesis.

Where are the [west bank/gaza] jews gonna go? With the 40 billion dollars USA is spending to "combat terrorism" they could
use that money to buy new housing for the occupying jews ..
hell .. they could buy beach houses for every man, woman,
child for that kind of money!!

If you build your house near the river, you know that sooner or
later the flood's gonna come, and you're gonna loose your house.

In just the same way, every person who built a house in occupied
Palestine knows that sooner or later they are gonna loose their house.

Begin [a lawyer] should be horse-whipped for introducing these
settlements into the Camp David agreements.

[Negev]

You probably didn't notice that there is an entire section on this forum dedicated to peaceful solutions to the conflict.

[takeo]

Finally i met a reasonable voice on this forum! I thought this forum was as reasonable as the negev desert is green.

[Negev]

Originally posted by cabcxx

If you build your house near the river, you know that sooner or
later the flood's gonna come, and you're gonna loose your house.

In just the same way, every person who built a house in occupied
Palestine knows that sooner or later they are gonna loose their house.


Personally, I agree, sort of.

The Arabs should have known better when they came into Israel and occupied the Jewish homeland, that the original owners of the land, the Jews, would come back and kick their thieving Arab asses all the way back to Arabia.

[takeo]

Negev, you're the worst die-hard extremist here, congratulations, your comments would even make Sharon or aid a moderate.

"The Arabs should have known better when they came into Israel and occupied the Jewish homeland, that the original owners of the land, the Jews, would come back and kick their thieving Arab asses all the way back to Arabia."

This happened 2000 years ago and by the way it weren't the Palestinians who kicked the Jews out and the Palestinians lived already longer than 2000 years ago in this region. By the way, the Jews came from the East as well, check your Jewish history. (not that it matters, what happened 2000 years ago can in no way affect contemporary decisions, otherwise anyone can make the wildest claim). I think such remarks would be funny if they weren't so dangerous.

[Zenthik]

What utter nonsense. Do you have any proof that the so-called "Palestinians" had lived there for 2000 years? Arabs only came into power in the mideast with the rise of pagan Islam.

[takeo]

Yes, lots of historical evidence, just read any (even jewish) history book about Palestine. The Filistines were not just Arabs, and there were already Arabs on the Arab peninsula (which Israel is a part of) long before islam was created.

[takeo]

my God, this seems to be a contest "who's the most extremist and least reasonable on this board" .

[cabcxx]

lots of 'shots' fired from each corner, but can anyone answer:

what would Israel be will ing to give up so that a lasting peace
will inhabit the land.

what would PA be will ing to give up so peace may reign?

[watcher]

Neither would have to give up anything! Israel should just be able to settle in at home... "palestinians" can give up practicing terrorism and go home to their countries, or stay in Israel if they can live peaceably. If they can't again they must leave to their countries.

[DeadSeaWater]

There will NEVER be a way for Jews and Arabs to live peacefully on land they both want-period. They both have valid reasons to want that land. I don't want to list these reasons-we all know them.

The only rational solution would be if the root of the problem were eliminated.
How?
Arabs have several powerful and very wealthy nations. One or two of them CAN take ALL the Arabs who currently live in Palestine/Israel. They CAN give them land, homes, and jobs. The Palestinians would be regular citizens in a country that shares their beliefs and respects their rights. They would not be "guests" or "refugees". They sure would have to put aside a lot of ego and pride for the tangible benefit of a stable, better life.

Israel on the other hand has no choice but stay where it is. There are no Jewish states for Israelis to go to.
This is the only solution that would enable the two peoples to live and prosper, instead of today's mess.

[Womble]

DeadSeaWater- why did you resurrect this long dead thread?

[KettleWhistle]

There will NEVER be a way for Jews and Arabs to live peacefully on land they both want-period. They both have valid reasons to want that land. I don't want to list these reasons-we all know them.

The only rational solution would be if the root of the problem were eliminated.
How?
Arabs have several powerful and very wealthy nations. One or two of them CAN take ALL the Arabs who currently live in Palestine/Israel. They CAN give them land, homes, and jobs. The Palestinians would be regular citizens in a country that shares their beliefs and respects their rights. They would not be "guests" or "refugees". They sure would have to put aside a lot of ego and pride for the tangible benefit of a stable, better life.

Israel on the other hand has no choice but stay where it is. There are no Jewish states for Israelis to go to.
This is the only solution that would enable the two peoples to live and prosper, instead of today's mess.

Agreed. However, it is impossible at the moment. So there will have to be better, taller border fenses, and some anti-tunnel and anti-rocket technologies.

[CoinToss]

---
Nice post. Your plan would have been a lot easier to apply in 1899, when there was only 500.000 arabs on the whole British Mandate(Jordan included). However, I am not sure it could ever take place nowadays.

What I can tell you is that, this is not a territorial problem from the arab viewpoint, it's a narcissic problem. If Israel surrendered 90% of it's territory, no peace would be reached. The problem have never been the israeli policy, but its mere existence that supposedly "humiliates" the arab/muslim nation.

Thus, no roadmap could ever work. Better trying a group psychoterapy...

[Roland]

Is Olmerts plan not that stupid after all?

1. Get all Israelis out of the Gaza Strip.
2. Have the predicable chaos and the continuing terror even more visible to the audience.
3. Recieve the predictable casus belli.
4. Send troops.
And now ... the Gaza Strip is 100% enemy territory - little chance to encounter human shields/hostages situations vulnerable to friendly fire. No need to save any infrastructure, buildings, roads. Well done, from a military pov, at least.
Options:
Stay in GS permanently? Annex territory to create a buffer zone?
Get a deal and leave? Decapitate Hamas? Unilaterally draw borders?
Will this procedure be repeated in the WB?

[Reffo]

Roland

There is only one problem with it, the Palestinian scam that I mentioned on the following thread:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=10462

And the chorus of condemnation about "collective punishment" is already loud and clear!!!!

[Roland]

And the chorus of condemnation about "collective punishment" is already loud and clear!!!!Yes. I can hear it.
But cutting off the electricity or water supply is "collective punishment", always hitting innocent civilians very hard.
Even if the majority of the pal voters had elected Hamas out of sympathy, and can't be called innocent from a certain pov, the kidnappers won't be hit or won't care.
The IDF may have to frisk the whole GS to get the hostage back home. Be it.
But why not with working street lights?
(CBS/AP) Israeli forces on Thursday took over the remains of three abandoned Jewish settlements in the northern Gaza Strip and entered a nearby Palestinian town, creating a temporary buffer zone to prevent Palestinian militants from firing rockets at Israel. (...)
Critics say it shows the Gaza pullout nearly a year ago was a complete failure.Complete failure? Premature. A working tactic to clear the battlefield IMO.

[Reffo]

Roland

You see Roland? Even a reasonable person like you is already falling for the Palestinian scam of screaming "collective punishment". You say that knocking out the electrical grid of Gaza is not fair and will not be effective? But you may not be aware that NATO did exactly the same thing to the Serbs in 1999, they disabled the power grid of the Serbs. And it's interesting that I don't remember anyone screaming "collective punishment" at them at the time. Everyone was just congratulating them for protecting the Muslims. And you know what else is interesting? It actually worked.

By the way Roland, I don't think that Israel will ever get back the poor abducted 19 year old soldier, certainly not alive. As sad as that is, this whole thing is about much more than that. It's about dealing effectively with Palestinian terrorism like Qussam rockets, suicide bombings and other attacks. Israel has to be allowed to deal with provocations effectively, otherwise their overwhelming military superiority is useless. That's why NATO succeeded against the Serbs, they were allowed to apply as much power as necessary to get their way. And that's why Israel has been relatively ineffective in their fight against the Palestinians, because their hands are tied by accusations of collective punishment and much worse. The interesting thing is that knocking out the power grid does not directly kill, it just causes inconvenience.

[Roland]

Even a reasonable person like you is already falling for the Palestinian scam of screaming "collective punishment". No, I don't.
You say that knocking out the electrical grid of Gaza is not fair and will not be effective? No, I doubt, that it is helpful or neccessary.
But you may not be aware that NATO did exactly the same thing to the Serbs in 1999, they disabled the power grid of the Serbs. And it's interesting that I don't remember anyone screaming "collective punishment" at them at the time. Everyone was just congratulating them for protecting the Muslims. And you know what else is interesting? It actually worked. I remember that very well. A new graphite bomb had to be tested in the battlefield. The test was successful. The ordinary Serb civilian had to suffer. And I do remember people condemning "collective punishment".
Same goes for the destroyed Sloboda-bridge in Novi Sad in april 99. Irrelevant for military purposes but the lifeline in Novi Sad.

By the way Roland, I don't think that Israel will ever get back the poor abducted 19 year old soldier, certainly not alive. I'm afraid so, too. :(
As sad as that is, this whole thing is about much more than that. It's about dealing effectively with Palestinian terrorism like Qussam rockets, suicide bombings and other attacks. Israel has to be allowed to deal with provocations effectively, otherwise their overwhelming military superiority is useless. That's why NATO succeeded against the Serbs, they were allowed to apply as much power as necessary to get their way. And that's why Israel has been relatively ineffective in their fight against the Palestinians, because their hands are tied by accusations of collective punishment and much worse.IMO Olmert does the right thing with clearing the GS, creating a wide buffer zone, invade the GS, search every house until the hostage is revocered dead or alive, until the kassams are eliminated and until the area is no threat anymore.
Destroying the civil infrastructure is a bad mistake, though.
Yeah, the generals rule! It is a nice target for our guns, so shoot it!
But that is not a mission objective - it creates a diversion playing into the hands of the enemies.
Serbia is a bad example. Fat targets were good to show the NATO member's audiences a good proceeding of the campaign.
Israel has very different priorities. Nobody would doubt the superior military power is good enough to blast the pal PM's office desk and not spoil the carpet. But the IDF is expected to round up the AK wielding gunmen in front of CNN's cameras at prime time without collateral damage.
The interesting thing is that knocking out the power grid does not directly kill, it just causes inconvenience."I didn't kill - it was the bullet"??
The power grid was destroyed to put pesessure on Hamas to negotiate - a grave mistake.

[Reffo]

I remember that very well. A new graphite bomb had to be tested in the battlefield. The test was successful. The ordinary Serb civilian had to suffer. And I do remember people condemning "collective punishment".
Same goes for the destroyed Sloboda-bridge in Novi Sad in april 99. Irrelevant for military purposes but the lifeline in Novi Sad.I'll take your word for it but I personally don't remember that there was a great outcry about it in the mainstream media.

IMO Olmert does the right thing with clearing the GS, creating a wide buffer zone, invade the GS, search every house until the hostage is revocered dead or alive, until the kassams are eliminated and until the area is no threat anymore.
Destroying the civil infrastructure is a bad mistake, though.
Yeah, the generals rule! It is a nice target for our guns, so shoot it!
But that is not a mission objective - it creates a diversion playing into the hands of the enemies.
Serbia is a bad example. Fat targets were good to show the NATO member's audiences a good proceeding of the campaign.
Israel has very different priorities. Nobody would doubt the superior military power is good enough to blast the pal PM's office desk and not spoil the carpet. But the IDF is expected to round up the AK wielding gunmen in front of CNN's cameras at prime time without collateral damage.I'm afraid that for Israel to be able to search the GS house to house, there will be lots of Palestinian civilian deaths. I can hear the cries of genocide and murder already :(

The interesting thing is that knocking out the power grid does not directly kill, it just causes inconvenience.
"I didn't kill - it was the bullet"??
The power grid was destroyed to put pesessure on Hamas to negotiate - a grave mistake.I'm not sure I understand your response, you might want to clarify it please.

[Roland]

I'll take your word for it but I personally don't remember that there was a great outcry about it in the mainstream media.We have lots of ex-yugoslavs in the neighbourhood. Yugoslavia was a very popular tourist destination. Things caught a lot of attention here.
People do forget - the downfall of Yugoslavia was a short and quick succession of events, compared to what Israel is enduring.
When one outcrie is just followed by the next - who remembers the last outcry about i.e. Haiti, Somaila, East Timor? I'd have to google it up just to be able to say the year.
I'm afraid that for Israel to be able to search the GS house to house, there will be lots of Palestinian civilian deaths. I can hear the cries of genocide and murder already :( I did not mean crush houses and inspect the rubble. :rolleyes: But you are right. Everything causes casualties and outcries.

I'm not sure I understand your response, you might want to clarify it please.

"knocking out the power grid does not directly kill"
It kills indirectly. I.e. cutting off a hospital's power can kill people there.

[KettleWhistle]

It kills indirectly. I.e. cutting off a hospital's power can kill people there.
Most hospitals have generators.

[nonjewnonarab]

Most hospitals have generators.

How fortunate: That should ease the suffering of those left desperate, battered, and dying from years oppression and *severe* injustice. Palestinians: nothing but fair game in the middle east safari hunt? Maybe sharing and careing could work? After all, "Palestinans" lived pretty well along side people of the jewish faith before anyone thought about artificial borders.

[Reffo]

How fortunate: That should ease the suffering of those left desperate, battered, and dying from years oppression and *severe* injustice. Palestinians: nothing but fair game in the middle east safari hunt? Maybe sharing and careing could work?You obviously dropped in from outer space because in writing this one sided diatribe you make it sound like Palestinians are just poor innocents who do nothing but mind their own business and them nasty joooooos just pick on them without any reason or provocation. When are you people going to grow up and realise that there are two sides to any story? Or did you just come here to annoy people?

How about an attempt to discuss this complex situatuation a bit more intelligently?

After all, "Palestinans" lived pretty well along side people of the jewish faith before anyone thought about artificial borders.Yea? When? certainly not in 1929, the descedants of Jews who survived the 1929 massacre by Palestinian Arabs will not agree with you. And those Jews were not even zionists and there was no Israel and there was no "occupation".....So, do you want to re-phrase what you said above?

[nonjewnonarab]

You obviously dropped in from outer space because in writing this one sided diatribe you make it sound like Palestinians are just poor innocents who do nothing but mind their own business and them nasty joooooos just pick on them without any reason or provocation. When are you people going to grow up and realise that there are two sides to any story? Or did you just come here to annoy people?

How about an attempt to discuss this complex situatuation a bit more intelligently?

I for one would call the current situation, *very* one sided. Bullying, unsanctioned action against a people little equiped to deal with it, ad infinitum,

Personally: I don't go over and slap someone half my size for looking at me in the wrong tone of voice [sic]. Calls for moderation and restraint in israels reaction seem to have gone ignored.

Yea? When? certainly not in 1929, the descedants of Jews who survived the 1929 massacre by Palestinian Arabs will not agree with you. And those Jews were not even zionists and there was no Israel and there was no "occupation".....So, do you want to re-phrase what you said above?

Read a little history, like before Israel was ever imagined by modern day zionists, remember earliest known settlements of this area cab be traced back 7000 years but anyway.....

Even in living memory, a friend that has since passed away remembers assisting the joooooos [sic, quote, huh?] in Palestine on their holy day.

I think there have been enough massacres on either side, in fact in the world in general, no? So I don't think useful to talk about: I would prefer to talk about how to improve matters than going back through history over who has the right to hurt others because of some historic event.

[Reffo]

Nonjewnonarab

Looking at you the wrong way? Is that what you call months of bombardments of Sderot with rockets? After the Jews withdrew from Gaza? And please don't tell me that the Qussams were harmless because it terrorised, wounded and killed Israeli civilians, even children.

But in any case, if you don't agree with Israel's response, then just tell us: How can Israel react to the provocations even though though the provocations happened after Israel withdrew from Gaza?

Even in living memory, a friend that has since passed away remembers assisting the joooooos [sic, quote, huh?] in Palestine on their holy day.I'm very impressed, really I am. And I'm sure it happened the other way around too. But just tell me, how does that negate acts such the massacre of 1929? And others before and after it? How do those stack up with your previous claim?

I think there have been enough massacres on either side, in fact in the world in general, no? So I don't think useful to talk about: I would prefer to talk about how to improve matters than going back through history over who has the right to hurt others because of some historic event.Oh yes, I agree. And even one massacre on either side is one too many but please don't come to this site and claim that the Israelis act entirely without provocation and that everything is Israel's fault!!!

[Reffo]

It kills indirectly. I.e. cutting off a hospital's power can kill people there.KW is right, hospitals do have generators. But even if that still doesn't work, that' the sad part of war, a war that Israel never wanted and still doesn't want.

And I still say that cutting off the power results in fewer deaths than attempting a house to house search which will result in fighting. In any case, what is Israel allowed to do when it gets attacked? Anything at all? Or must it take it all on the chin?

[Roland]

KW is right, hospitals do have generators. But even if that still doesn't work, that' the sad part of war, a war that Israel never wanted and still doesn't want.

And I still say that cutting off the power results in fewer deaths than attempting a house to house search which will result in fighting. In any case, what is Israel allowed to do when it gets attacked? Anything at all? Or must it take it all on the chin?
In know, generators. And you know, a city with 1+ mio ppl and a damaged infrastructure looses human lives. With whatever kind of directness. Yes, the sad and unwanted part of war.
With some great luck, Gaza might not have indirect casualties, this time.
Cutting off the power will not bring the hostage back home.
Cutting off the power can not replace the house-by-house search, or the subsequent fighting.
Cutting off the power won't get the abductors to do anything at all.
Cutting off the power puts pressure on the Hamas govt - but I don't know if the Hamas govt has enough power to get the kidnappers to release their victim at all?
So why tf cut off the power at all??? It makes no sense to me.

In any case, what is Israel allowed to do when it gets attacked? Anything at all? Or must it take it all on the chin?
That's to be decided later.
(It must take it all on the chin of course. It's Israel's fate anyway. Why do you ask that, silly? :rolleyes: )

I see no alternative to a really exhaustive search, until the hostage is back, or at least the damn kassams are found.
If they won't let their places be searched without a fight, they will have a fight.

This time, Israel is in for the hard way - succeed or leave and look stupid, powerless and weak, subsequently followed by another wave of bad PR, more kassams, more abductions.

Choose, Olmert! Only the result can make a difference!

[Reffo]

Cutting off the power will not bring the hostage back home.
Cutting off the power can not replace the house-by-house search, or the subsequent fighting.
Cutting off the power won't get the abductors to do anything at all.
Cutting off the power puts pressure on the Hamas govt - but I don't know if the Hamas govt has enough power to get the kidnappers to release their victim at all?
So why tf cut off the power at all??? It makes no sense to me. I thought we covered that already. It's highly doubtful that the poor soldier will get out alive and to be honest, I'd be surprised if Israel will even get his body back. I hate to say this and I hope his family don't read what is being said in this forum ....

Now, with regards to the power station: We are all arm chair generals and none of us really know whether it serves a useful purpose, but here are the facts:

It is a war that the Palestinian government (Hamas) provoked (or at least it tacitly encouraged and certainly did not do anything to prevent) and it's legitemate to apply pressure on your enemy
It's not a unique Israeli tactic, other armies, including NATO, knocked out civilian infrastructure in their wars
It's a tactic that has the capacity to psychologically demoralise the enemy.
It demonstrates that Israel is in control because it can provide or turn off electric power to the Palestinians from Israel's own grid at will, and it has already done so.
It's likely to cause less deaths than anything that leads to direct fighting

Will this tactic work? Probably not. But then again, nothing else seems to work, least of all a nil response from Israel which is seemingly what's expected of Israel by it's critics.

I see no alternative to a really exhaustive search, until the hostage is back, or at least the damn kassams are found.
If they won't let their places be searched without a fight, they will have a fight.

This time, Israel is in for the hard way - succeed or leave and look stupid, powerless and weak, subsequently followed by another wave of bad PR, more kassams, more abductions.

Choose, Olmert! Only the result can make a difference!I'm not sure that you are right. Israel has already been "in for the hard way" in the past. I think it was in 2002 when they went in hard and tried to eliminate the terrorist infrastructure. The problem with that is that once Israel moves out, they just replace it, they have plenty of willing parties such as Iran and Syria (probably others too) who resupply them with explosives and weapons.

You might also recall the outcry against Israel from "the civilised" world at the time. I'm sure you remember the allegations about a massacre in Jenin. Even though the easiest way for Israel to commit a massacre, if that's what they wanted to do' would be to just stand back and pulverise the Palestinians with tanks and planes. Instead, they risked their troops and they lost over a dozen soldiers through close fighting.

So, given that this fight is more than just about the hostage, it's also about stopping the bombardment of Israeli border towns, I think Israel will be content to subject them to continual pressure until they see some reason and agree to some sort of meaningful cease fire that will have to be respected by both sides, not just Israel (for a change).

[MGB8]

The first thing the US did in Iraq was knock out power. Its a standard military manuever especially when your side has night vision and the other does not (or at least not to the same extent).

Remember, when Israel first came in their was strong consideration of a block by block search for Shalit. Knocking out power is key for that. They decided against it, but it still gives the IDF a large tactical advantage against Hamas et al in the effected area (southern Gaza).

[peace4ev4]

Hi im writing due to concern. i pray everytime i remeber or see these bombings happening.I wish we had peace. I wish people would'nt just talk about it and drive past when its there infront of them. why are we letting this killing go on. you know what the problem is we allowed those terrorists to teach while we drived by in our cars, we didnt bother to to talk to them get to know them, which one of us ever atleast put out our hands out of jesture or atleast our leaders should. tell them in theyr own Quran it says not to harm the unarmed. We all know they are paranoid about Al Aqsa being taken over its one of theyr signs for the coming of the one eyed Anti-Christ. you know i wish i could be there to communicate to help everyone. Do you know the biggest fault. its the fact of America placing idiotic and ignorant leaders on top of Arabic countries thats where everything has happened my friends. if you opress people they become abase if they become abase they do wrong as we see today. I am Muslim and i have nothing but love for you and your families as a Muslim should. if I saw you hurt i would help without doubt. i would like your opinions. I figured we should learn from each other to help tackle anti-semitism. please write back I have so much to say and answer. peace be with you my friend. P.s i would really appreciate to know how far the zionist movement has yet to go because the signs also say "The people will take over all the way to syria." I know its not good to hear and we should try not to let this happen because i feel the worst for all of mankind because as soon as this happens Antichrist is here well thats what i believe you can believe its false if you like im just sharing information. thanks