idea for a new type of zionist organization...

[victot]

1 idea I’ve been sort of thinking of...

this girl i once knew told me that she was a jew-for-jesus...
some Jewish Christian dude sorta convinced her and her family that the New Testament was the word of g-d and all that. at the time i was totally secular and non-alligienced, but this still pissed me off to no end. so i did some research on the net. 1 thing that sorta sprang from the jewish community to combat the phenomenon of christians converting jews to christianity was anti-missionaries...
where learned professionals, usually rabbis who totally studied the jewish bible and the christian bible... learn how to convince these "jews for jesus" 1 on 1 that the judaism belief is true. examples of this type of organization are jews for judaism and outreach judaism. these organizations apparently have pretty good success rates in getting these jewish-christians back to judaism.

anywho, my idea was for the same principle to work for proud, learned jews to convince leftist jews who believe zionsim is evil, that zionsim is in actuality quite a beautiful concept, in a 1 on 1 format. (sort of like counselling) i think there should be a professional organization with professionals who are experts, highly intelligent and pursuasive, located in major cities throughout the world, particularly those cities with a large jewish population, to bring leftist jews back to being proud members of our nation. the principle could work for all people who are anti-zionism, but the most painful of course, are those jews who feel they have a better understanding of morality then the rest of the jewish people, and have managed to discover various "truths" which the rest of us have been blind to, such as the state of israel, it's creation, its existence, is immoral.

i really believe that once haven gotten all the facts, and have looked at all the factors from all the points of view, the conclusion that most people who are not part of the arab/muslim world, or people who are just plain anti-semites (cuz these groups might be too biased, im afraid) should believe that for the most part, the modern state of israel, is really a very good, beatiful thing.

anywho, that's my idea...
peace

[Teacake]

Victot, you have addressed my exact concern in a way that I wish I had. I hope this idea of yours takes off. You might want to ask some of the various moderators at About.com who have forums about this what ideas they have. Just run a search on anti missionary.

I'm with you and will be thinking of ideas. It is a serious problem.

[Philip]

Maybe you guys can start with this:


THIS BOOK, although written in English and addressed to people living outside the State of Israel, is, in a way, a continuation of my political activities as an Israeli Jew. Those activities began in 1965-6 with a protest which caused a considerable scandal at the time: I had personally witnessed an ultra-religious Jew refuse to allow his phone to be used on the Sabbath in order to call an ambulance for a non-Jew who happened to have collapsed in his Jerusalem neighbourhood. Instead of simply publishing the incident in the press, I asked for a meeting which is composed of rabbis nominated by the State of Israel. I asked them whether such behavior was consistent with their interpretation of the Jewish religion. They answered that the Jew in question had behaved correctly, indeed piously, and backed their statement by referring me to a passage in an authoritative compendium of Talmudic laws, written in this century. I reported the incident to the main Hebrew daily, Ha'aretz, whose publication of the story caused a media scandal.

The results of the scandal were, for me, rather negative. Neither the Israeli, nor the diaspora, rabbinical authorities ever reversed their ruling that a Jew should not violate the Sabbath in order to save the life of a Gentile. They added much sanctimonious twaddle to the effect that if the consequence of such an act puts Jews in danger, the violation of the Sabbath is permitted, for their sake. It became apparent to me, as drawing on Talmudic laws governing the relations between Jews and non-Jews, that neither Zionism, including its seemingly secular part, nor Israeli politics since the inception of the State of Israel, nor particularly the policies of the Jewish supporters of Israel in the diaspora, could be understood unless the deeper influence of those laws, and the worldview which they both create and express is taken into account. The actual policies Israel pursued after the Six Day War, and in particular the apartheid character of the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories and the attitude of the majority of Jews to the issue of the rights of the Palestinians, even in the abstract, have merely strengthened this conviction.

Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years

I am unable to see how this is "really a very good, beautiful thing." Please educate me.

[minusthejihad]

How do you spell out the fart sound you make when you place your palm in the cup of your arm pit and begin pumping?

[Philip]

I'd spell it "M-I-N-U-S-T-H-E-J-I-H-A-D."

[Mediocrates]

Could you identify "This"?

[minusthejihad]

I'm glad you responded to my post Fillup. Because every time you say, see, or spell my name, I want you to remember, your precious persecuted Palestinians would be able to have better lives if they would say my Handle as well:

Minus the Jihad

[Dyeus]

Torah tells us to be proud as lions to be Jewish and it as a shame to find so many to ignore or "cover up" their Jewishness, we should stand together so we wont fall, we should help eachother not ruin eachother and I agree with some sort of modified organisation but one that would keep a true and clear Jewish character :cool:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by victot

this girl i once knew told me that she was a jew-for-jesus...
some Jewish Christian dude sorta convinced her and her family that the New Testament was the word of g-d and all that. at the time i was totally secular and non-alligienced, but this still pissed me off to no end. so i did some research on the net. 1 thing that sorta sprang from the jewish community to combat the phenomenon of christians converting jews to christianity was anti-missionaries...



Depending on the circumstances would you consider a Christian trying to convert a Jew to Christianity as being an anti Semite act?

[minusthejihad]

I wouldn't call it an anti-semetic act at all. I would call it misdirected recruiting or misguided saving. Just the thought of it makes me laugh.

Like I said, my girlfriend is a gentile or a shikza for those not offended (she's not), and she always asks if my parents would want her to convert to Judaism if we got married, and I always say,

"Baby, don't be foolish, if your parents wanted me to convert to Christianity, I would laugh at them, so why would I want you to go through anything so hypocritical?"

I just remind any person of any faith that tries to show me the WAY,

"Look, my people were here long before yours, in some instances, set your religion up even, so, if I don't even believe in most of the religious history of my religion, then why would I even possibly want to believe in some watered down, abridged version of yours?"

No offense to the gentiles out there, I think all of that history (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddist, Hindu, etc.) was made up by very smart men who wanted to maintain power over the masses. What better way, than giving them an instruction book?

[victot]

Depending on the circumstances would you consider a Christian trying to convert a Jew to Christianity as being an anti Semite act?

na, the way these evangelical christians consider it, it is the most dispicable act of all, if you don't try to convert jews... the way they see it, everyone who doesn't believe in jesus is goin ta hell for an eternity. also, as i understand it, the modern conversion techniques of theirs, is to LOVE the jew, the chosen people, they feel honoured if they talk to a jew on the internet, they get ALL their friends and family to pray for you... i've personnally experienced how these evangelicals work. i don't trust them, the idea of jews converting to christianity really bothers me.

and phillip, that is a bizzare example, the phone thing isn't really anything to do with zionism, it's more strict judaism... i think the vast majority of jews, in israel and not, observant or not, would make the call on shabbat...

also, i do feel for israel to keep the upper moral ground, they should give most of the west bank and gaza to the palestinians, if it would make peace.

phillip, i'm not sure why, you said once that you just want america to wash your hands of the whole affair, but it seems to me like you have somewhat of an ax to grind with israel... o well.
i dunno what to tell ya, visit israel maybe? it's a swell place, pretty inspiring, at least to me it was.

anyways,
peace.

[Philip]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Could you identify "This"?

'This' would be the strongly chauvinistic undercurrent of Judaism, and undercurrent that has been rejected by reformation but which is embraced by the State of Israel.

[Philip]

Originally posted by victot
and phillip, that is a bizzare example, the phone thing isn't really anything to do with zionism, it's more strict judaism... i think the vast majority of jews, in israel and not, observant or not, would make the call on shabbat...

I expect that that's true ... as long as the Gentile in question is not Palestinian.


also, i do feel for israel to keep the upper moral ground, they should give most of the west bank and gaza to the palestinians, if it would make peace.

"To keep the upper moral ground?" But not because Palestinians have any right to a small fragment of the land their ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years?


phillip, i'm not sure why, you said once that you just want america to wash your hands of the whole affair, but it seems to me like you have somewhat of an ax to grind with israel... o well.
i dunno what to tell ya, visit israel maybe? it's a swell place, pretty inspiring, at least to me it was.

If my government would stop bankrolling Israel to the tune of $4-6 billion a year, my concern with Israel would drop to the level of my concern with, say, Burma. I think that ethnically based states, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that essentially colonial states that were imposed by force, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that states where different ethnicities receive different levels of government service, such as Israel, are morally wrong. But as many people here have written, there are worse things going on in the world than Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. My ax to grind with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is that, because of the $4-6 billion a year by which my government bankrolls Israel, I am partly responsible for that abomination.

[Luser]

Originally posted by Philip


I expect that that's true ... as long as the Gentile in question is not Palestinian.

[/b]

"To keep the upper moral ground?" But not because Palestinians have any right to a small fragment of the land their ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years?



If my government would stop bankrolling Israel to the tune of $4-6 billion a year, my concern with Israel would drop to the level of my concern with, say, Burma. I think that ethnically based states, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that essentially colonial states that were imposed by force, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that states where different ethnicities receive different levels of government service, such as Israel, are morally wrong. But as many people here have written, there are worse things going on in the world than Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. My ax to grind with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is that, because of the $4-6 billion a year by which my government bankrolls Israel, I am partly responsible for that abomination. [/B]

Except the fact that 4-6 billion returns to the US in the form of Defence contracts (Locheed-Martin/GE/Gruman/Northrop) you are correct.
Of course the Carlile Group stand to make pretty pennies on all conflicts.
Profile
Established in 1987, The Carlyle Group is a private global investment firm that originates, structures and acts as lead equity investor in management-led buyouts, strategic minority equity investments, equity private placements, consolidations and buildups, and growth capital financings. Since its inception, the firm has invested more than $6.6 billion of equity in 247 corporate and real estate transactions with an aggregate acquisition value of over $18 billion. As of March 31, 2002, the firm had more than $13.5 billion of committed capital under management.

In short, they finance conflicts worldwide Large or Small.!
Bush's daddy is a profitable member.

So, get off your horse about US tax dollars going to Israel. It all comes back as US jobs and profits that keep the wealthy in power and the workers enslaved.
Stop electing the Rich if you want REAL change! Yes, that includes the likes of Clinton, and Gore!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Philip


'This' would be the strongly chauvinistic undercurrent of Judaism, and undercurrent that has been rejected by reformation but which is embraced by the State of Israel.


Wellll as long as you don't hate Jews..

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Philip




If my government would stop bankrolling Israel to the tune of $4-6 billion a year, my concern with Israel would drop to the level of my concern with, say, Burma. I think that ethnically based states, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that essentially colonial states that were imposed by force, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that states where different ethnicities receive different levels of government service, such as Israel, are morally wrong. But as many people here have written, there are worse things going on in the world than Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. My ax to grind with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is that, because of the $4-6 billion a year by which my government bankrolls Israel, I am partly responsible for that abomination. [/B]


If we take up a collection and send you ($ 30.00) thirty bucks will you shut up and go away?

[Dyeus]

Israel was NOT imposed by force.... read ur history book a little bit better

[Luser]

Originally posted by victot
1 idea I’ve been sort of thinking of...

this girl i once knew told me that she was a jew-for-jesus...
some Jewish Christian dude sorta convinced her and her family that the New Testament was the word of g-d and all that. at the time i was totally secular and non-alligienced, but this still pissed me off to no end. so i did some research on the net. 1 thing that sorta sprang from the jewish community to combat the phenomenon of christians converting jews to christianity was anti-missionaries...
where learned professionals, usually rabbis who totally studied the jewish bible and the christian bible... learn how to convince these "jews for jesus" 1 on 1 that the judaism belief is true. examples of this type of organization are jews for judaism and outreach judaism. these organizations apparently have pretty good success rates in getting these jewish-christians back to judaism.

anywho, my idea was for the same principle to work for proud, learned jews to convince leftist jews who believe zionsim is evil, that zionsim is in actuality quite a beautiful concept, in a 1 on 1 format. (sort of like counselling) i think there should be a professional organization with professionals who are experts, highly intelligent and pursuasive, located in major cities throughout the world, particularly those cities with a large jewish population, to bring leftist jews back to being proud members of our nation. the principle could work for all people who are anti-zionism, but the most painful of course, are those jews who feel they have a better understanding of morality then the rest of the jewish people, and have managed to discover various "truths" which the rest of us have been blind to, such as the state of israel, it's creation, its existence, is immoral.

i really believe that once haven gotten all the facts, and have looked at all the factors from all the points of view, the conclusion that most people who are not part of the arab/muslim world, or people who are just plain anti-semites (cuz these groups might be too biased, im afraid) should believe that for the most part, the modern state of israel, is really a very good, beatiful thing.

anywho, that's my idea...
peace

Your problem is that anyone 'highly intelligent' doesn't believe in invisible super friends. You will have to settle for someone considerably less than intellegent.
'Truth' and makebelieve invisible friends, ahhh... don't mix.

Good luck!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Luser


Your problem is that anyone 'highly intelligent' doesn't believe in invisible super friends. You will have to settle for someone considerably less than intellegent.
'Truth' and makebelieve invisible friends, ahhh... don't mix.

Good luck!

Could you elaborate on that please?

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Philip
Maybe you guys can start with this:
[...]

Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand YearsI am unable to see how this is "really a very good, beautiful thing." Please educate me. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Israel Shahak, RIP....

[Luser]

Originally posted by Mediocrates


Could you elaborate on that please?

Any society that collectively believes in invisible silent superfriends cannot be reasoned with.

Who can EVER agree on what the Super Friend REALLY wants? As the meanings of sentences can change with simple inflection, no one could ever pretend to KNOW what the SF wants, needs, or desires based on reading scriptures.

Especiallywhenthescriptureswerewritteninsuchamanne rthateventhewordsaredisputedletaloneanyinflectiont hatmayormaynothavebeenintended!

Sorry for that, but I think you get my point.
So, my point. There are no SF's. Unless I am to believe those pesky voices in my head that the doctors keep telling me to ignore.

With that out of the way, Islam, Christers, Jews, Pagans all are to be treated with equal regard. No nation that wishes to be just to ALL humans should ever be built on those beliefs.

Social Justice is simple to spell out, and implement. We need no god to tell us right from wrong. Do we?

Hope that was elaborate enough.

[Mediocrates]

no actually it borders on the paranoid. sorry but I don't get you.

[Philip]

Originally posted by Luser
So, get off your horse about US tax dollars going to Israel. It all comes back as US jobs and profits that keep the wealthy in power and the workers enslaved.

...and sometimes it comes back as jet fuel-laden airliners crashing into the sides of buildings. But I guess that's not your point, is it?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Philip


...and sometimes it comes back as jet fuel-laden airliners crashing into the sides of buildings. But I guess that's not your point, is it?

No Philip, US tax dollars don't come back as airplanes flown into buildings. There are no excuses for mass murder of innocent civilians, and the people who perpetrate such acts are simply evil.

The main complaint that militant Islam has with the U.S. is not that the U.S. supports Israel, but that the U.S. stands between them and world conquest.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Philip

If my government would stop bankrolling Israel to the tune of $4-6 billion a year, my concern with Israel would drop to the level of my concern with, say, Burma. I think that ethnically based states, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that essentially colonial states that were imposed by force, such as Israel, are morally wrong. I think that states where different ethnicities receive different levels of government service, such as Israel, are morally wrong. But as many people here have written, there are worse things going on in the world than Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. My ax to grind with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is that, because of the $4-6 billion a year by which my government bankrolls Israel, I am partly responsible for that abomination.

Well Philip, I'm glad to see you now consider (if you follow your own formula) most Arab states "morally wrong" as well as the Palestinians' demand for a Jew-free West Bank.

It's also revealing that you are concerned with how Israel treats Palestinians but not how Palestinians treat Israelis. Palestinian Arabs just mass murdered another busload of Jews; like you, most of the world is more worried about the treatment of Yasser Arafat, the Father of Modern Terrorism.

Is Yasser unharmed? Does he have food and water? electricity? Inquiring world leaders want to know.

But none of them want to know how the seriously injured are doing in Tel Aviv.

[Philip]

Are you the Bastard Son of The Big Lie, then ibrodsky?

With regard to the alleged over-wroughtness of "most of the world" over Palestinian but not Israeli suffering, try here (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=2364).


Many US media reports were quick to declare that two suicide bombings in Israel on September 18 and 19, in which eight Israelis were killed, had brought an end to a period of "calm" simply because there had been no similar attacks for six weeks and few Israelis had been victims of Palestinian violence. In fact, the bombings came at the end of a particularly bloody period in which dozens of Palestinians, most of them unarmed civilians, and a large number of them children, had been killed and injured by Israeli occupation forces. In effect, the definition of "calm" or a "lull in violence" inherent in these reports is 'only Palestinians are being killed.'

[Philip]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
No Philip, US tax dollars don't come back as airplanes flown into buildings. There are no excuses for mass murder of innocent civilians, and the people who perpetrate such acts are simply evil.

The main complaint that militant Islam has with the U.S. is not that the U.S. supports Israel, but that the U.S. stands between them and world conquest.

Ah, there are always excuses, ibrodsky. The only question is wheter or not they are legitimate. As to your Big Lie about what motivates militant Islam, here is a rather powerful comment from one Osama bin Laden:


As for what is taking place in Palestine these days, I can only say we have no one but God to complain to.

What is taking place cannot be tolerated by any nation. I do not say from the nations of the human race, but from other creatures, from the animals. They would not tolerate what is taking place.

A confidant of mine told me that he saw a butcher slaughtering a camel in front of another camel.

The other camel got agitated while seeing the blood coming out of the other camel. Thus, it burst out with rage and bit the hand of the man and broke it.

How can the weak mothers in Palestine endure the killing of their children in front of their eyes by the unjust Jewish executioners with US support and with US aircraft and tanks?

Maybe one day you will be able to rise up to the moral standard of the camel, ibrodsky.

[Mediocrates]

some day we can all hope to live in the squalor and stone age morality of Phil's world -

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Philip
here is a rather powerful comment from one Osama bin Laden...the ultimate moral authority of one Philip

[Luser]

Originally posted by Dyeus
Torah tells us to be proud as lions to be Jewish and it as a shame to find so many to ignore or "cover up" their Jewishness, we should stand together so we wont fall, we should help eachother not ruin eachother and I agree with some sort of modified organisation but one that would keep a true and clear Jewish character :cool:


So where then do you stand with Noam Chomsky exactly as he never covers up his Jewness, hhmmm?
Do you "stand as Lions" to back up his reasoned nature?
As an immigrant son of Jews, who taught Hebrew as the "one true language", who escaped the holocaust, how do you stand by this man of intellect fellow Jews, huh?

You only want an organization that supports one narrow interprtation of what your make-believe superfriend said (read god.)

Torah is a collection of some nice and not so nice fairy tales. Grow up, be responsable adults, and join the rest of mankind in trying to live and work together peacefully.

[Mediocrates]

Calling somone's religion a fairy tale in the same sentence with work together peacefully and join mankind is childish, mean, arrogant, self serving, bigoted and narrow minded.

[Mediocrates]

It matters not at all to me what Dr. Chomsky's street cred is any more than molesting priests are men of God.

[Luser]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Calling somone's religion a fairy tale in the same sentence with work together peacefully and join mankind is childish, mean, arrogant, self serving, bigoted and narrow minded.

Dang, where is my crying towel...

I can't tell you how Sharon, or Arafat relate to their religions.
I can tell you that Bush uses his Christianity as a cloak for no other reason than to draw votes, and public support. Rice, a preachers daughter uses her Christianity as a cloak to justify her immoral acts.
I assume Arafat, and Sharon cloak themselves as well.

So yes, I am mean, childish, and arrogant towards ALL those who pretend to 'believe' for their own self interests.

All scriptures (Islam/Christian/Jew) warn AGAINST violence and war, yet you all wave your stupid icons rushing to the battlefield to avenge wrong doings.

Yes, the ball is in Israels court, Israel has ALL the money, ALL the military, and control of ALL the land.
It is Israels choice on how she wants to exist in the 21st century.

[Luser]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
It matters not at all to me what Dr. Chomsky's street cred is any more than molesting priests are men of God.

So then, do the Jews stand behind him like lions, or not? He certainly is easier to listen to than the shifty eyed Sharon...Whats up with that anyway...does he have a disease, or can he simply not look anyone in the eye?

If you believe in "him" then we are ALL men of god, not just the child molestors, but the butchers as well. What is your point?

[Mediocrates]

I really can't follow you - you're all over the place. I can't respond to it, sorry.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by victot
anywho, my idea was for the same principle to work for proud, learned jews to convince leftist jews who believe zionsim is evil, that zionsim is in actuality quite a beautiful concept,
<snip>
to bring leftist jews back to being proud members of our nation. the principle could work for all people who are anti-zionism, but the most painful of course, are those jews who feel they have a better understanding of morality then the rest of the jewish people, and have managed to discover various "truths" which the rest of us have been blind to, such as the state of israel, it's creation, its existence, is immoral.


The left-wing Jews believe Zionism is evil? tha'ts news to me, being a leftist ZIONIST Israeli Jew...

I may have criticism over the policy and actions of my government, but so what? Would you call the anti-war movement in the Vietnam era an unamerican movement?

and FYI, to date, the ONLY Jewish group to believe the exitence of Israel to be immoral is the fanatic ultra orthodox "Neturei Karta" cult who stood in the steets of Durban in the anti racism convention of 2001 with signs "Israel is the tool of the devil" and "Israel has no moral basis".

so please, enough of the cheap propoganda and these suggestions of brainwash. God gave me brain so I will think for myself and form my own opinions and ideals.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by sharonbn
The left-wing Jews believe Zionism is evil? tha'ts news to me, being a leftist ZIONIST Israeli Jew... Remember "our" "Takeo"? Noam Chomsky? Felicia Langer? You should have put the "Israeli" in upper-case letters. Elsewhere Israel-hating (not certain government policies, but the country as such) Jews are quite a problem. They rarely, if ever, exist in explicit organized form, but rather let local institutions grant them comfortable positions for their accomplishments in "criticizing Israel". It has become a second profession for some, if not the first one.

As for Victot's idea: good, but won't function, at least in my part of the world. Maybe in Canada. A typical European problem is that most Jewish community leaders are too unattractive for many of the younger, well-educated, ambitious Jews, especially the leftists. This may well be one of the reasons why someone like Rabbi Sacks for all his shortcomings is being tolerated by the British community leadership, but he is an exception rather than the rule. A typical Jewish leader is, similar to most of the official Israeli representatives we get to see around here, a rather embarassing sight: bad rhetorics, puny appearance, ignorant of the finer political intricacies, etc.

Here, many Jews grow up with the feeling that Jewish communities are bent on keeping them out of the surrounding societies, firmly in their own grip, in their own dark and dusty paranoid little corner, and that demands to show solidarity with Israel are yet another deceitful ruse to achieve it. For such people, anti-Zionist zealotry becomes their entrance ticket to what they perceive as full integration into their non-Jewish surroundings. The hatred they draw from some of the more "conservative" parts of Jewish communities as well as from Israel only serves to reaffirm them. Maybe we need a new peace movement: for a dialogue between Jews, Israeli and other.

[victot]

whoa, were getting back on topic here!

sharonbn:

i meant those jews who are against zionism and the state of israel... i find they tend to be leftists, often fanatical leftists. i remember seeing somewhere on this forum, the leftists of israel are differant from the other "leftists"
in terms of politics, i view myself as left wing or moderate in terms of the israel situation...
when i said leftists before, i had in mind noam chomsky, norman finklestein... you know, the socialists, anti-american types, and their followers.
i subscribe to this jewish anti-zionism, anti-israel newsletter, just for montreal jews. it's not huge, but a few dozen jews in montreal alone subscribe to it. i can't believe how these people support iraq, and are against israel. these people seem to believe that zionism expressively means racism, and that israel is racist, evil...
A LOT of jews think israel has no right to exist, and that it has been nothing but evil, and colonilists to the arabs...

in my heart, i KNOW this not to be true, that the basic idea of israel is moral, but i don't know how to really articulate it enough, to convince one of these people 1 on 1 of the absolute beauty of israel, the whole idea of it, the jewish people getting jerusalem back after 2000 years...
i wouldn't consider something like this brainwashing, i wouldn't want to target the weakest and stupidest of the anti-israel crowd; i would want a true israel debate expert to speak with the leaders of the anti-israel intellectuals, to speak with them over a few hours...

the idea i had would not to be for brainwash, just someone who is knowlegeable enough about the situation, and hip and empathetic enough, and with enough people skills to convince people about zionism and israel.


MIRIAM,
it wouldn't hafta to be a typical jewish community leader... it could be anyone, someone secualr, someone hip, good-loooking, tough-looking, wierd-looking... anything. just a jew with a spark to them, and who is persuasive.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by victot
MIRIAM,
it wouldn't hafta to be a typical jewish community leader... it could be anyone, someone secualr, someone hip, good-loooking, tough-looking, wierd-looking... anything. just a jew with a spark to them, and who is persuasive. The trouble is that with such personalities a constant fixture in the public space the job is likely to be pretty tough. As I wrote, in certain social surroundings Zionist Jews can function - for left-wing Jews subscribing to the snobbery of their environment - as the equivalent of poor and embarassing relatives. If you can find "a Jew with a spark" then you'd better persuade him to run for a community leadership position... Or make himself conspicious in the local media... I know that this is not realistic :mad: :mad: :mad: