Terrorism, brutality, polygamy: why it's so easy to "hijack" Islam, the so-called "re

[Simon]

I would highly recommend this book for the jewish readers of this forum.

Just reading the excerpts makes for some really interesting reading. It confirms essentially what I have been saying all along. I wont repeat my allegations against Islam or muslims. The book says it better than I can.

http://www.nrbookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=C6008#

Planes crashing into the World Trade Center, bombers blowing themselves up in crowded supermarkets, female genital mutilation, the imprisonment of rape victims, polygamy: the media claims that all these are results of the "hijacking" of Islam, "the religion of peace." But here at last is a book that dares to tell the truth about Islam - and to show you exactly why this religion is so easy to "hijack," and what Islamic authorities really teach about such barbarities!

Exploding dozens of PC myths, Robert Spencer goes beyond the media's shallow distinction between "true" Islam and terrorist Islam to demonstrate - in the words of Muslims themselves - that Islamic fanaticism and terrorism are rooted in the Qur'an and core Islamic traditions. He shows that since Muslim radicalism stems from elements at the religion's heart, Islamic moderates (and cowardly Western multiculturalists) will never convince the Muslim world at large that there is no place for violence in Islam.

Refreshingly free of multiculturalist cant, Islam Unveiled goes straight to Islamic sources to explain why Muslims worldwide take the violent passages in the Qur'an as marching orders for today, while Jews and Christians do not do so with similar passages in the Old Testament. Spencer also forthrightly examines the treatment of women in the Islamic world, tracing the devastating societal effects of Muslim polygamy and Islamic divorce laws.

And, since Muslims worldwide revere Muhammad as the greatest model of human behavior, Spencer explores the tumultuous life of prophet of Islam - squarely facing his violence, bloodlust and Clintonesque sexual appetites (and their unsettling implications for the contemporary international scene).

Spencer also examines the human rights records and political systems of Islamic countries, detailing why democracy has never taken root in Muslim soil - and why it probably never will. He details the titanic hurdles that secularism must overcome in order to gain a secure foothold in the Islamic world, and how Osama bin Laden and other radicals skillfully play on Muslim sensibilities in order to gain a huge following among Muslims.

Spencer's provocative and entertaining articles on Islam and a wide variety of other topics have appeared in Human Events, National Review Online, Chronicles, Crisis, and many other publications. He provides here a desperately needed antidote to the distortions and wishful thinking about Islam that have swamped the media since September 11. No American can afford to ignore the facts he provides here - if he wants to face realistically the ongoing threat from the Muslim world.

Among the startling revelations of Islam Unveiled:

What Muslim authorities worldwide really said about the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks

Suicide bombing: the rationale for this barbaric practice in Islamic theology

Muslim "fundamentalists": a radical fringe? Why their message has such resonance in the Islamic world even among those who will never commit any acts of violence

Wife-beating: sanctioned by the Qur'an - and by contemporary Islamic commentators! The shocking details

Rape in Islam: why, under Islamic law, it's virtually impossible to prove

The truth about Aisha, Muhammad's nine-year-old wife (plus the Muslim world's sorry record of child brides)

How the prophet of Islam came to marry his daughter-in-law - and other curious episodes in the life of Muhammad

"Temporary marriage": the facts about this strange and destructive Shi'ite Muslim practice

Jihad: does it really impose an obligation on Muslims to wage war? The facts

Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi sect: why it is (contrary to Western analyses) not the originator of Islamic radicalism or terrorism

Why jihad won't conclude with the end of the war in Afghanistan, or even the war on terrorism

Why converts from Islam in Islamic countries live in fear of their very lives

The Muslim journalist who acknowledged that "the Muslim world today is full of bigotry, fanaticism, hypocrisy and plain ignorance"!

Human rights: the grim record of Islamic countries - and the roots causes of this record in basic Muslim beliefs

Science and high culture: why they virtually died out in the Muslim world - and why this is a root cause of modern Muslim resentment

Why Islamic philosophy, which once exercised enormous influence in the West, declined into insignificance

Slavery: why it exists today nowhere in the world except in two Islamic nations, Sudan and Mauritania

The Crusades: why the Western world has no need to apologize to the Muslim world

Islamic tolerance? The whole truth about non-Muslim minorities under Muslim rule

The PC straitjacket: evidence that it's easier to tell the truth about Islam in predominantly Muslim countries than in Europe and the U.S.

Demographic jihad: how population trends may allow Islam to conquer Western Europe without the setting off of a single suicide bomb

Secular Turkey: why the rest of the Muslim world is not following its example - and the constant pressure it suffers from Islamic radicals

Can Islam be secularized and incorporated into the West's multicultural mosaic? The hard facts

"In its own lively style, this book puts down a strong and significant marker to what lies ahead, as Islam and the rest of the world strive to come to terms." - From the Introduction by David Pryce-Jones, senior editor, National Review
"This is a bracing argument that can help Americans think through what might well turn out to be the greatest religious, cultural, and political conflict of this century." - The Rev. Richard John Neuhaus, author, The Naked Public Square

"Spencer has explained very ably some of the misconceptions about Islam. The reader will be greatly enriched in understanding Islam and how Muslims act, in the light of the attack on America." - Dr. Anis Shorrosh, author, Islam Revealed

"Robert Spencer's attempt to unveil what most do not want to say about Islam is inspiring and informative. What do Muslims believe, and why they believe as such? Spencer's is the first successful attempt in unveiling this matter." - Daniel Ali, founder and president of the Christian-Islamic Forum

[victot]

you know, im even against being so pr that you can't say a controversial truth, once in a while...

but in my opinion, posts like the above give israel forums and jewish forums a bad name, it breeds only bad feelings.

i'm even interested in reading the book to see what it has to say, but please, if you're recommending a book which is so anti-someone else's religeon, a religeon which for better or for worse has certainly earned itself a place into human civilization, why not give a warningor something that some may find it offensive or something?

i dunno, i mention this, cuz i've seen VERY similar stuff said by neo-nazis about the talmud, it just pisses me off.

o well, peace.

[TheAZCowBoy]

Re: The Arabs high jacking of Islam?

Sorry to rain on your parade Simon, ole boy, but when you talk about how Arab terrorists have high jacked Islam for their own selfish reasons, you have only to see how Zionism has high jacked the decency of Judaism and the tsunami of anti-semitism and seething hate that the bloodiest living Jew; LIKUDNIK, Ariel Sharon has unleashed on the unsuspecting decent Jews of the world because of his polices of state sponsored terrorism, apartheid, racism, bigotry and even "human bondage" being visited against the defenseless and downtrodden Palestinian people.

The state sponsored terrorism that is currently being unleased on the Palestinian people ( including the "illegal" use of US supplied weaponry against civilians in violation of the US Arms Export Act by Israel ) who have lived in the Holy lands for centuries, by the IDF/IAF/Settlers and the LIKUDNIK criminals that abound in modern israel are a tribute to mans inhumanity to man as we saw in Slobadan Milosevics murderous behavior in the Balkans to Israel's chagrin.

Nowhere on the globe have we a small impotent country ( sans US aid ) that continues to give the world community its extended middle finger to a myraid of resolutions that have been passed over the past 54 years against Israel. ( and we point fingers at Saddam's Iraq?! ).

Israel, as the world currently knows it has little chances of existing for much longer--I believe every God fearing Jew accepts this as a holy truth---and the Sharon's, Arafat's and the other ( Natanyahu ) political thugs, bafoons, rabble rousers and unindicted mass murderers must soon step aside and make room for a peaceful solution to the problems between the Zionist "colonizers" and the Palestinian's.


The UN Human Rights Commission, Amnesty Int'l and "many" others have archives full of crimes against humanity being committed against Arabs by the Zionist Jews of Israel ( Jenin, being "just" one ) and there's no reason to even debate the issue.

If you add up all the murders commited by Arabs against Jews even since the '72 Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes, including "the roadside murders," and the massacre of the "children of Ma'lott," you will find that they don't even add up to 10% of Israel's murder of lebanese and Palestinian's in the summer of 1982 invasion of Lebanon by LIKUDNIK killers Menechem Begin, Arik Sharon & company...

Nuff said.

[Mediocrates]

PS: I know how criticism of Israel and Jews "always" ends up being defined as "Anti-Semitic" drivel by you Jews---but let me ask you Simon: "What is more anti-Semitic that the daily murder, maiming and displacement of Semitic people---the Palestinian's?

Fact: Most European Jews. the Kahzars that went to Europe from the Cacasus and Black sea areas in AD 570 were not even Semitic people!


Wingnut!

[danholo]

Actually this Khazar theory is not a fact. Yes, the Khazars mostly adopted Judaism, but it hardly makes European Jews descendants of them. I was worried about this "fact" until I rounded up enough info. Although genetics has nothing to do with Judaism, genetics itself has proved that most Jews are genetically related to each other, both Sefardim and Ashkenazim. Also, if you would be knowledgeable in geography, the Caucasus and Black Sea areas are hardly a big part of Europe. The best explanation was, from a site (http://www.khazaria.com) especially dedicated to Khazars that Khazarian Jews mixed with Russian Jews that had come from the west.
After being expelled from Western European countries, many Jews fleed to Poland or other Eastern European countires. The Khazarian descent is a VERY small percentage to say the least and is mostly mixed with Semitic "Jewish blood". So much for your facts...

BTW, this AZ cowboy reminds me of a guy on another forum who thoroughly claimed the Khazar theory being true and the Talmud being racist. I hope we don't get the same utter ******** from this guy.

[Simon]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893554589/qid=1032981145/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5065172-7727060#product-details


These are some of the reviews of the book Islam Unveiled.


To answer Victot's post:

I dont mind if a person were to read this book and refute its findings based on factual evidence. However, just because the book is critical of Islam and (seeks to) prove that Islam indeed incites hatred, does not make it any less useful reading.

In fact, the book may serve to dispel several absurd politially correct notions about Islam.

From a hindu perspective, this book is important to me. Just yesterday, muslims entered a temple in the Gujarat state of India and brutally murdered some 30-odd people. Included was a pregnant women who was shot in the back while trying to save herself and her baby. Also included was a little boy.

So, for me the book is very useful. It outlines exactly why muslims are killing my fellow hindus.

Regarding, respecting the feelings of muslims: Do they care about mine as a hindu? I am a kuffar, aint I?

What about the feelings of that pregnant woman?
Or the 58 hindu men, women and children burnt to death in India by muslims? Ooops, sorry, they are dead. Who gives a damn about their feeling, right?

Only now are hindus fighting back. After the train burning incident, Gujarat, incidentally the home state of Gandhi of the non-violence fame, went on a rampage and the retaliatory attacks by hindus, for one of the few times in the recorded history of communal riots in India, killed more muslims than hindus. It would be very useful for my fellow hindus to understand what drives muslims and this book is a step in that direction. If I had the resources, i would have bought a million copies and distributed them in India. Understanding the origin of the hatred that muslims feel for hindus would be invaluable in countering the muslims in India. Burying ones' head in the sand and pretending that the murders are committed by a small fringe of muslims is not going to get us anywhere.


As an analogy, I am posting some links by Daniel Pipes who has made it (one of his) mission to counteract the Goebbelsian propaganda of CAIR-the council of american-islamic relations. Note that CAIR considers Daniel Pipes to be a muslim-hating bigot

What do you think Victot, of Daniel Pipes efforts to expose CAIR? You think Daniel Pipes is a bigot too? For telling the truth?

http://www.danielpipes.org/cair.shtml
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/394
http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html
(CAIR writes: Throughout his career, Daniel Pipes has exhibited a troubling bigotry toward Muslims and Islam.)

[Simon]

On another personal note: I would not be discussing islam or muslims if at the time of Partition our "great" leaders had done the needful and ensured a complete exchange of populations. All hindus, sikhs, jains, buddhists in India. All muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

If that had happened, I would wager that India would have been far ahead of even China by now. And instead of reading Robert Spencer's book, I would have been trying to triple our IT exports or trying to ensure safe drinking water to even the remotest village in India or trying to ensure gender equality, or trying to ensure that every indian was educated.

Unfortunately, that was not so. I am not discussing Islam/muslims because I want to. I have to. Because my country, India, the only homeland of hindus, sikhs, buddhists, jains is in mortal danger.



To illustrate this point: Do you ever hear of the Chinese caring about muslims/islam? They dont give a damn because they dont have much of a muslim population. The ones in Xinjiang (the Uighurs) are so effectively suppressed that an Uighuir cannot even take a leak without the Chinese police finding it out.

Would Israelis have cared about the finer points of Islam if your very existence was not threatened by muslims?

[TheAZCowBoy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
PS: I know how criticism of Israel and Jews "always" ends up being defined as "Anti-Semitic" drivel by you Jews---but let me ask you Simon: "What is more anti-Semitic that the daily murder, maiming and displacement of Semitic people---the Palestinian's?

Fact: Most European Jews. the Kahzars that went to Europe from the Cacasus and Black sea areas in AD 570 were not even Semitic people!


Wingnut!

Response from: TheAZCowBoy

Same ole Jewish "caca" response, huh folks?

Silence and more silence when the "Anti-Semitic" behavior is in the Jews corner.

Pslam 124:20 explains much of what is to be expected Zionist Israel......

"Jehovah is guarding those that love him---the evil ones he will annihilate!" :mad:

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by TheAZCowBoy
PS: I know how criticism of Israel and Jews "always" ends up being defined as "Anti-Semitic" drivel by you Jews---but let me ask you Simon: "What is more anti-Semitic that the daily murder, maiming and displacement of Semitic people---the Palestinian's?

Actually, the Palestinians are nothing more than squatters brutally occupying parts of the Jewish homeland.

Still, there is no "daily murders" as you know very well. The war on terrorism is not murder, it's self-defense of course.

We can't say that reacting to the Arab terrorists of al Qaeda is murder, just like reacting to groups like Islamic Jihad or Hamas is considered anything but self-defense.

But speaking of murder, we need to ask ourselves why someone living in the U.S., after seeing the Arab attack on America of 9/11 in which 3000 Americans were mass murdered, would still support Palestinian terrorism. The only answer is that person wants to see more Jews and more Americans slaughtered at the hands of the Arabs, i.e., an traitor to this country and a vile anti-Semite to boot.

And let's take a closer look at the anti-American traitors:

The 'players' are an interesting lot. From the right we have the 'faceless' anti-Semitic parasites who come in force to defend their murderous brethren in Iraq, Arafatistan and Saudi Arabia.

Then there come the plastic self-appointed 'pseudo-intellectuals' and cut-n-paste experts like we've seen here by the droves.

Then come the "vociferous" contributors, and finally we get down to the basic 'shoot-the-Zionist-and-American-bastards-in-the-groin,' types, like ( smiling ) TheAZCowBoy. (These are his very own words, btw).

* * *

But, it's still generally recognized that the Palestinians and their Iranian and Saudi bankrollers have sent a tsunami of anti-Semitism around the world and over the long term they will discover that the "eternal" victims have lost their place in the world's sympathies.

In the end, good triumphs over evil, and the "axis of evil" of extremist IslamiNazis will go down in history as primitive savages who were overcome by Western values and progress.

[minusthejihad]

AZCowgirl,

Cookoo, cookoo.

[minusthejihad]

But speaking of murder, we need to ask ourselves why someone living in the U.S., after seeing the Arab attack on America of 9/11 in which 3000 Americans were mass murdered, would still support Palestinian terrorism. The only answer is that person wants to see more Jews and more Americans slaughtered at the hands of the Arabs, i.e., an traitor to this country and a vile anti-Semite to boot.

I think he is just a wimpy little neo-nazi skinhead from AZ, who is too scared to espouse his real hatred and seeks the warm, safe comfort of his mouse and keyboard in his attempt to annihilate Jews. Either that or he his just cookoo, cookoo.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by TheAZCowBoy
Actually the flow was from east Europe to the west---the Khazarian Jews drifted into Ukraine, Russia and Poland and eventually began to dominate in Western Europe until the guy with the funny mustache decided he had had enough of the Jewish domination and humiliation of the German people.

And you will end up in the same place he did.

[MGB8]

LOL Cowboy...

a couple of points to rebut your ignorant and clearly racist dribble...


(1) Israel was asked to go into Lebanon by Christians who were being Murdered by "Palestinians" and other Arabs - they had just been expelled from Jordan and Syria after trying to start uprisings there and caused the Lebanese Civil War. Without Israeli action, there would be no Christians left in Lebanon.

(2) To a large extent, Zionism IS Judaism. Every Jew who prays prays towards Jerusalem, and prays "next year in Jerusalem" and calls him/herself part of the People of Israel - meaning not just the decendents of Jacob but also the historic NATION of Israel. We mourn the destruction of the two temples in Jerusalem.

(3) you use a lot of harsh-words, without any facts to back them up. LOL..."state terrorism," "crimes against humanity," "criminals" ..... DEFINE THE TERM AND BACK IT UP WITH FACTS! You can't though, can you. Other than too site the UN, which FINALLT Colin Powell or some US Senator pointed out IS JUST A GROUP OF NATIONS (mostly not even representing their people but just petty despots) WITH THERE OWN SELFISH INTERESTS. World community? How about the French in Sierra Lione...

As for Israel being "impotent" and not lasting much longer...keep dreaming. Each year Israel grows stronger. We won against horrid odds, and now we have nuclear weapons. The day Israel is destroyed is the same day that the rest of the Middle East becomes a Radioactive wasteland.

Israel will exist for the rest of human time...get used to it.



Originally posted by TheAZCowBoy
Re: The Arabs high jacking of Islam?

Sorry to rain on your parade Simon, ole boy, but when you talk about how Arab terrorists have high jacked Islam for their own selfish reasons, you have only to see how Zionism has high jacked the decency of Judaism and the tsunami of anti-semitism and seething hate that the bloodiest living Jew; LIKUDNIK, Ariel Sharon has unleashed on the unsuspecting decent Jews of the world because of his polices of state sponsored terrorism, apartheid, racism, bigotry and even "human bondage" being visited against the defenseless and downtrodden Palestinian people.

The state sponsored terrorism that is currently being unleased on the Palestinian people ( including the "illegal" use of US supplied weaponry against civilians in violation of the US Arms Export Act by Israel ) who have lived in the Holy lands for centuries, by the IDF/IAF/Settlers and the LIKUDNIK criminals that abound in modern israel are a tribute to mans inhumanity to man as we saw in Slobadan Milosevics murderous behavior in the Balkans to Israel's chagrin.

Nowhere on the globe have we a small impotent country ( sans US aid ) that continues to give the world community its extended middle finger to a myraid of resolutions that have been passed over the past 54 years against Israel. ( and we point fingers at Saddam's Iraq?! ).

Israel, as the world currently knows it has little chances of existing for much longer--I believe every God fearing Jew accepts this as a holy truth---and the Sharon's, Arafat's and the other ( Natanyahu ) political thugs, bafoons, rabble rousers and unindicted mass murderers must soon step aside and make room for a peaceful solution to the problems between the Zionist "colonizers" and the Palestinian's.


The UN Human Rights Commission, Amnesty Int'l and "many" others have archives full of crimes against humanity being committed against Arabs by the Zionist Jews of Israel ( Jenin, being "just" one ) and there's no reason to even debate the issue.

If you add up all the murders commited by Arabs against Jews even since the '72 Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes, including "the roadside murders," and the massacre of the "children of Ma'lott," you will find that they don't even add up to 10% of Israel's murder of lebanese and Palestinian's in the summer of 1982 invasion of Lebanon by LIKUDNIK killers Menechem Begin, Arik Sharon & company...

Nuff said.

[Simon]

http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher092302.asp

September 23, 2002 9:00 a.m.
Not Peace-Loving, After All Is Islam itself a threat?

Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest Growing Faith by Robert Spencer (Encounter, $24.95) 170 pages.



Most Americans have a benignly positive attitude toward religion, one that holds faith to be a good thing for the commonweal, regardless of sectarian particulars. Norman Rockwell's famous "Freedom of Worship" painting captures this nicely, while Eisenhower's remark — "I believe every American should have a religious faith, and I don't care what it is" — does so a little more clumsily. That tolerant, pro-religion view has served America well over time, but one cannot help wondering if our civic piety, allied with political correctness, is blinding us to some hard questions about Islam — questions upon which the survival of our civilization depends.

I don't know many non-Muslims who believe President Bush's politically necessary but theologically nonsensical proclamation that, "Islam means peace." But there are many more who take comfort in the belief that the threat to America comes not from Islam itself, but from an extremist form of the religion espoused by terrorists and their small but vocal band of supporters. That's certainly the line taken by the mainstream media, who seem so afraid of sparking American bigotry against Muslim citizens that they have largely resisted critical analysis of Islamic writings, practice, and history.

What if they are wrong? What if the threat is not extremist Islam, but Islam itself? That's the view set out by author Robert Spencer in his new book, Islam Unveiled, a relatively short, plainspoken analysis of the Islamic faith and the challenge it poses to pluralist democracy. Warns Spencer, "The culture of tolerance threatens to render the West incapable of drawing reasonable distinctions. The general reluctance to criticize any non-Christian religion and the almost universal public ignorance about Islam make for a lethal mix."

This is a deeply unsettling little volume, because it offers scant hope that the West can live at peace with Islam unless the religion changes radically, and even less hope that that is possible. Still, the questions Islam Unveiled poses and the answers it provides are hard to dismiss, and given the urgency of the times, necessary to ask. As Spencer writes, "This is not in order to incite thugs to attack Muslims on the street, but to look squarely at what the West is up against."

If Spencer is right, the West faces a primitive, violent, and fiercely chauvinistic religion whose followers, to the extent that they are pious adherents to its teachings, cannot be reasoned with, only resisted. Islam is at its core inimical to democracy and human rights as we in the West understand them. To expect Muslims to drop their belligerence toward the West, which has existed since Islam's founding in the 7th century, is to expect them to jettison core values of their faith — something for which there is no precedent in Islamic history.

The Koran, writes Spencer, is more central to the Islamic faith than the Bible is to Christianity. Muslims believe it was revealed directly from God to the Prophet Muhammad. A pious Muslim may consult an imam or spiritual leader for guidance, but he will also read the Koran himself. He will find there many divine instructions to make constant war on the infidel, who is only to be given the choice of conversion, slave-like subjugation (in historian Bat Yeor's word, dhimmitude) — or death. And throughout Islamic history, that's exactly how Muslim societies have behaved toward non-Muslims, who are by the very fact of their unbelief not considered innocents in the eternal, divinely mandated conflict.

Undeniably, Christians have in the past committed many despicable acts in the name of God, but they did so in violation of scriptural teaching, not in fulfillment of it, as in Islam. Though the Bible testifies to violence committed at the command of God, and they the few if any Christians or Jews today believe that this is how God expects man to live today. "Islam, by contrast, generally rejects the idea of a historical progression in revelation, and allows little latitude for allegorical interpretation of the martial verses in the Qu'ran ," Spencer writes. "A book [that claims] literal perfection tends to resist any interpretation that diminishes the literal truthfulness of any of its statements."

This literalism has profound consequences for the way Muslims live. Unlike in Christianity, there is no scriptural mandate for separation of church and state in Islam, making secular democracy an alien and hostile concept. Women have few rights over and against their husbands, who may legally beat them, and men in general. (Spencer, quoting from Islamic sources, demonstrates that Muhammad, considered the ideal man for all time, treated women cruelly by contemporary Western standards.) Enslaving infidels and raping infidel women are justified under Koranic law (and still occur in some Muslim lands). Grotesque punishments for crimes — beheadings and the like — are not medieval holdovers, writes Spencer; "On the contrary, they will forever be part of authentic Islam as long as the Qur'an is revered as the perfect Word of Allah."

Spencer does not believe that Islam can be tamed. While Muslims in the West live in peace, prosperity and religious liberty, Christians and other non-Muslims are persecuted, sometimes unto death, throughout the Muslim world today. Turkey is the only Muslim country that could be called democratic, and that's a stretch; its example shows that secularist values can only be imposed on Islamic societies by force, and will therefore remain tenuous. Because Islam demands death for heretics, moderate Muslims will always risk their lives by offering more liberal interpretations of their faith.

And most crucially, in his view, Islam cannot be other than a religion of violence. "Of course, most Muslims will never be terrorists. The problem is that for all its schisms, sects, and multiplicity of voices, Islam's violent elements are rooted in its central texts," Spencer writes. His final verdict on Islam is sobering, particularly when one considers the rapidly increasing Islamic presence in Europe, the cradle of Western civilization: "It would be too pessimistic to say that there are no peaceful strains of Islam, but it would be imprudent to ignore the fact that deeply imbedded in the central documents of the religion is an all-encompassing vision of a theocratic state that is fundamentally different from and opposed to the post-Enlightenment Christian values of the West."

To be sure, Spencer's despairing view is not shared by many scholars, even one as reliably critical of radical Islam as Daniel Pipes. In his recent Militant Islam Reaches America, Pipes emphatically denies that radical Islam is the same thing as traditional Islam. He insists that drawing the distinction and encouraging moderates within Islamic societies is an imperative for the West, though he offers scant evidence for this conclusion. And he admits that Muslim moderates are "weak, divided, intimidated and generally ineffectual. Indeed, the prospects for Muslim revitalization have rarely looked dimmer than at this moment... ." One gets the feeling that Pipes would rather light a candle for the unlikely hope of a peaceful revolution within Islam, not because the alternative — one-sixth of humanity, many of whom are already living among us, as implacable enemy of the West — is unrealistic, but because it is unthinkable.

"Nowadays, nothing seems less tolerated than what people call pessimism — and which is often in fact just realism," says Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Is Islam Unveiled pessimism, or realism? We can only know for sure if we have a serious public discussion of the issues Spencer raises in this important (but unsatisfyingly brief) book — issues that stand to be ignored by the media, for fear of trading in anti-Muslim bigotry. If Islam Unveiled, which is published by Encounter Books, Peter Collier's imprint, becomes the bestseller it deserves to be, it will be through talk radio and word of mouth by Americans who believe that post-9/11, America cannot afford the moral disarmament of indulging in multicultural platitudes.

Spencer may be wrong — I doubt it, but I'd like to hear a convincing refutation of his arguments — but he is asking questions that few others have the courage to . And until we hear from this supposed vast silent majority of peace-loving Muslims, the answers Spencer gives go a long way to explain the hatred, violence, backwardness, and fanaticism endemic to the Islamic world.

[Simon]

IBrodsky/NewsGuy/Mediocrates: Can anyone of you please change the title of the thread to "Islam Unvelied: A Book by Robert Spencer." That would be a more accurate title.

[michael]

Originally posted by Simon
[I]Just reading the excerpts makes for some really interesting reading. It confirms essentially what I have been saying all along. I wont repeat my allegations against Islam or muslims. The book says it better than I can.realistically the ongoing threat from the Muslim world.


Simon,

Sounds interesting. Exposing religous chauvanism is a worthwhile activity in pursuit of a saner world.

You must have an inquiring mind. There is a Israeli author who has written extensively on the same theme. Interested?

[Simon]

Michael: Please post any links to the material you refer to here directly.

[Simon]

http://www.alsalafyoon.com/EnglishPosts/alwalaawalbara.htm

Al-Walaa' wal-Baraa'

by Um Khalid

Al-walaa means loyalty and al-bara means disownment. In the context of Islam al-walaa is loyalty to Allah and whatever He is pleased with as well as friendship and closeness to the believers, whereas al-baraa is freeing oneself from that which is displeasing to Allah and disowning the disbelievers.

After loving Allah and His Messenger (s.a.w.), Allah obligates us to love those who love Allah and His Messenger (s.a.w.) and hate those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (s.a.w.). The Islamic Belief System('Aqeedah) obligates every Muslim to love the people of 'Tawheed and hate the people of Shirk.

This obligation is from the religion of Muhammad(s.a.w.) Allah the Exalted said:

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends. They are Awliyaa(friends) to each other. And the one among you that turns to them is one of them. Indeed, Allah guides not an unjust people." (5:51)

The above verse forbids Muslims from taking any of the People of the Book, specifically, and any of the disbelievers as a Mawlaat (friend).

Allah also forbade the believer from supporting the Kuffaar, even if they are blood relatives. Allah the Exalted said:

"O you who believe! Do not take your fathers and your brothers as Awliyaa, if they love disbelief (Kufr) instead of faith ( Eemaan). If any of you do so, they are wrongdoers." (9:23)

Allah the Exalted said:

"You will not find any people that believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and his Messenger (s.a.w.), even though they were their fathers, sons, brothers, or relatives...." (58:22)

Allah the Glorified forbade Muslims from supporting the Kuffaar, and the enemies of the 'Aqeedah. The Glorified commands us to support and love the Believers. Allah the Exalted said:

"Your (real) friends are Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers,- those who establish the Salaat and pay Zakaat and bow down. As for those who turn to Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers(for friendship)- it is the part of Allah that will certainly triumph." (5:55-56)

Indications Of Taking The Kuffaar As Friends (Mawlaat).

#1 Imitating them in dress and lingo......

Imitating them in dress and lingo indicates loving them, and because imitation leads love, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) said:

"Whoever imitates a people is one of them."

Allah forbids imitating the Kuffaar in their worship, traditions, and things special to them. We should not imitate them in their appearance and morals. Also, we should not speak their language, except when necessary, and we should not adopt their way of dressing and eating.

#2 Residence in their lands and not moving from their lands to the lands of the Muslims to save one's Deen. (This is a concise meaning of Hijrah)....

Hijrah, according to this meaning, is an obligation upon every Muslim.

Residence in the land of the Kuffaar indicates friendship with them. Allaah forbade the Muslims from residing in the lands of the Kuffaar, if they are able to make Hijrah. Allaah the Exalted said:

"When angles take the souls of those who die while they have wronged their souls, they say, 'In what state were you?' They reply: 'We were weak and oppressed in earth.' [The Angels] say: 'Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (from evil) ? Such men will find their abode in Hell, what an evil refuge! Except those who are weak and oppressed: men, women, and children who have no means in their power, nor can they find a way (to escape). For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive, because Allah blots out (sins) and forgives again and again. " (4:97-99)

#3 Helping them, giving them victory over the Muslims, speaking well of them and defending their honour.....

These are some of the actions that negate a person's Islam. Seek refuge in Allah from that!

#4 Seeking their aid....

"O you who believe! Do not take into your intimacy those outside your ranks. They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire for you to suffer. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the SIgns, if you have wisdom. Ah! you are those who love them, but they do not love you, though you believe in the whole of the Book. WHen they meet you, they say, "We believe,' but when they are alone, out of frustration and rage, they bite off the tips of their fingers because of you. Say: 'Perish in your frustration rage. Allah knows well all of the secrets of the heart.' If anything that is good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some misfortune overtakes you, they rejoice at it....." (3:118-120)

The above verses show what is in the hearts of the Kuffaar about the Muslims, such as hatred, betrayal, evil, plotting, and the love for harm to affect them. They want harm to reach them by any means. They use the trust of the Muslims to plot against them.

#5 Observing their holidays or helping them to make that celebration or congratulating them for their holidays or just being present at their celebrations.....

The scholars say about the verse, "Those who witness no falsehood...."(25:72), that the description of the worshippers of the Most Merciful is that they do not gather at the celebrations of Kuffaar.

#6 Supplicating for them and being compassionate to them....

Allah forbade these actions by His statement,

"It is not fitting for the Messenger of Allah and those who believe that they should ask forgiveness for Pagans, even though they are relatives, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire..." (9:13)

Supplicating and having compassion for them causes us to love them and their(disgusting) practices.

The Outward Manifestations Of Taking The Believers as Mawlaat.

1 Hijrah from the lands of the Kuffaar to the lands of the Muslims.....

Hijrah means to move from the land of Kuffaar to land of the Muslims for the sake of saving one's Deen. Hijrah, with this meaning, is obligatory upon the Muslims until the sun rises from the west before the establishment of Judgment Day. The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) said that he is free from he Muslim who lives among pagans. If a Muslim can move from the lands of the Kuffaar, then Allah forbids him to stay in those lands. He may stay, if he gives da'wah and propagates Islam, and shows his Deen openly. Allah the Exalted said,

"When angels take the souls of those who die while they have wronged their souls, they say, 'We were weak and oppressed in the earth.' [The Angels] say: 'Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (from evil)? Such men will find their abode in Hell, what an evil refuge! Except those who are weak...For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive, because Allah blots out (sins) and forgives again and again." (4:97-99)

#2 Helping the Muslims with money, body, and tongue in what they need in their Deen and material life...

Allah the Exalted said:

"The Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another," (9:71)

#3 Feeling sympathy for the Muslims whenever harm comes to them and feeling happy when good comes to them....

The Messenger of Allah(s.a.w.) said:

"The example of the Muslims is like a body shares that hurt (like a body stricken) with a fever and no sleeping."

Then he(s.a.w.) said:

"The Believer to another Believer is like a building. " (He then brought his hands together with his fingers intertwine.)

#4 Advising and counseling the Muslims. always loving good things to happen to them, not cheating them, tricking them or going behind their back..

The Messenger of Allah(s.a.w.) said:

"No one of you has Eemaan until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself," and , "A Muslim doesn;t betray his brother Muslim nor does he go behind his back."

#5 Making supplication for them and asking forgiveness for them...

Allah the Exalted said:

"Know, therefore, that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. And ask forgiveness for your fault, and for the believing men and women..." (18:28)

We should know that both the requirement and the concept of al-walaa and al-baraa stems from the shahaadah. It is a matter of faith and thus of fundamental importance. Loving and hating for the sake of Allah is one of the major pillars of Eemaan. Nowadays, people love each other for the sake of worldly life and seeking to gain benefit, even though the one that is loved is an enemy of Allah, His Messenger(p.b.u.h.), and the Deen of the Muslims. Muslims today should disassociate with the People of Disbelief and Falsehood and associate with the People of Islam and Eeman. Muslims today should live by this principle.

[Leon Uris]

Islamic Terrorism
From: Jim Croft
Date: 02 Oct 2002
Time: 23:46:32


Comments
ISLAMIC TERRORISM

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW AND WHAT YOU NEED TO DO By Jim Croft Post the
9/11/01 Islamic terrorist attacks on America the major television
networks began filling the airwaves with interviews with consultants
that specialize in Islamic issues. The majority of them have been
less than candid about the role of Islam in spawning international
terrorism. They present the traditions and Holy books of Islam as
those that promote peace, tolerance, and truth. The experts neglect
to inform you of the overriding aspects of Muslim traditions and
writings that encourage hostility, intolerance, and lying as a
policy, particularly to non-Muslims. In reality, if the teachings of
Mohammed and Muslim clerics were extracted from the hearts and minds
of the 19 hijackers of 9/11, 3,000 Americans would still be living
members of their families. The points related in this report have
been gleaned from years of investigating Islam and correspondence
with Arabic-speaking ex-Muslims that have chosen to put their faith
in Jesus Christ.

Things the Islamic experts won't tell you! About Islam's worldview -
The Muslims of Islamic states, and many within the USA, have the
tradition of a worldview that divides humanity into two opposing
halves. Dar al-Islam, House of Islam, is the zone where Islam rules.
The other side is the war zone that is called, Dar el Harb, House of
War. This worldview dictates that war will continue between these
two sections of humanity until the supremacy of Islam is fully
established throughout the earth.

About deceptive revisions of the Koran - There has been a great
effort among Muslim translators to enhance Islam's appeal and
reputation among people of other faiths. To accomplish this they
have adopted a slanted, freestyle method of translating certain
sections of the Koran. This is done to veil the truth about their
religion's primitive barbarism and contempt for Christians and Jews
that is revealed in the original Arabic texts. Here is an example
from the new French translation of the Koran in regard to the Jews.
It reads, "The people of Israel will be twice destroyed as an
innocent victim, and God will reward them by elevating them to great
heights." The original translation reads just the opposite. "The
people of Israel, after sowing corruption twice on earth for the
purpose of dominating other people, will push themselves up into a
position of extreme power before being punished by God."


About the Koran's violent verses - The Koran was written in two
major stages. These have been integrated and arranged by chapter
length as opposed to the chronological order in which they were
initially written. The first part was penned in the early years of
the Islamic movement while Mohammed was living in Mecca, Arabia. The
experts boast the verses from these chapters as proof that Islam is
a bastion of peace, love, and tolerance. They avoid references to
verses from the second and largest portion of the Koran. It was
written after the movement relocated its headquarters to Medina,
Arabia, and increased in strength. These verses often reflect
religious intolerance and encourage cruel hostility towards non-
Muslims. Here are two examples that were aimed at Jews, Christians,
and Arabs that clung to traditional tribal polytheistic beliefs. -
So when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters, wherever
you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in
wait for them in every ambush.. (Koran 9:5) The only punishment of
those that wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to
make mischief in the land is that they should be murdered, or
crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut-off on
opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned.. (Koran 5:33)


About the stage of weakness/the stage of strength strategy - The
stark differences in the tone of the verses that were written in
Mecca and those written in Medina exposes a tactic that has been
characteristic of Islam throughout its history. Traditionally,
Muslims determine the strength of the religion in various settings
as being in one of two states; the stage of weakness and the stage
of strength. When Muslims are in the minority and perceive that they
are vulnerable, it is their custom to agree to most anything and to
be conciliatory towards other religious groups. The moment that they
sense superiority in numbers and influence, a form of ruthlessness
sets in. They begin to oppress minority religious groups and to
demonstrate a blatant disregard for the agreements that they made
during the stage of weakness.

About sanctioned lying - Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam does
not simply make a provision for forgiveness if one tells a lie; it
actually encourages lying in certain situations. This is evident in
both the Koran and the Hadith. The latter is a collection of
Mohammed's sayings and deeds according to his wives, relatives, and
companions. Next to the Koran, it is the most important part of
Islamic law. In the Hadith, Mohammed was quoted as saying, "The sons
of Adam are accountable for all lies with the exception of those
spoken to reconcile two men that are quarreling, for a man to
appease his wife, and in war, because war necessitates deception."
This is what often makes life such a nightmare for non-Muslim women
that marry Muslim men. Without the pangs of conscience, men are
licensed to appease their wives with promises which they have no
intention of keeping. In addition, within Islam there is the
principle of "Al Takeyya." The term means, "prevention". This
principle permits Muslims to lie at their discretion whenever they
interpret that it is expedient for the influence of Islam or their
personal protection and well-being. They justify lying by using the
following verse as a springboard for expanded applications of Al
Takeyya. "Let not the believers take the disbelievers for friends
rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with
Allah unless it is done to guard (Takeyya) yourselves against them,
guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against His retribution.
And to Allah is the eventual coming." (Koran 3:27) The principle of
Al Takeyya is precisely what makes negotiations with Islamic
statesmen such a frustrating endeavor for the naïve diplomats of
Christianized nations. It is imperative that diplomatic envoys learn
that when dealing with Muslims, what Muslim statesmen say is not the
issue. The real issue is, what do they mean and actually intend to
do in their hearts.


About the depth of hatred for the West - The pro-Islam experts
endlessly reiterate that only a small number of Muslims would
qualify as West-hating-radicals. The claim is that the majority are
peace-loving moderates. This may be true of the majority of Muslims
that have immigrated to America in pursuit of economic opportunity.
For most of these, strict compliance with the dictates of clerics in
relation to the teachings of Islam is secondary to their thirst for
prosperity and political freedom. However, their sentiments are not
indicative of the majority of the world's 1.2 billion Muslims. The
facts are as follows:

Polls indicate that high percentages of our supposed allies in
Pakistan and Saudi Arabia support Osama Bin Laden.

Post 9/11, his first name, Osama, has attained a favored name status
for newborn male children in a dozen or more Muslim nations. (In
some nations 7 out of 10 baby boys are the namesakes of the
terrorist).

Numerous Mosques in Islamic states exhibit the photo of Bin Laden as
a hero of the faith. The abbreviated list of nations wherein Muslims
mob the streets gleefully chanting "Allah Akbar" (Allah is greater)
every time America or Israel suffers from Islamic terrorist
activities includes Israel, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi
Arabia, Algeria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Nigeria, and the
Philippines. In America, Muslims have been observed doing the same
in many convenience marts and mosques. (It may be true that
Christianity has a miniscule number of violent radicals; however,
you don't find pictures of IRA terrorists hanging in the vestibules
of Christian sanctuaries around the globe or hordes of America's
Catholics streaming to the aid of their oppressed brethren in
Northern Ireland.) The experts can claim that most of the world's
Muslims are peace-loving moderates, but the stats reveal that it is
the radicals that have the power to influence the hearts and minds
of the Muslim masses.


About envy of the West - There are two interrelated spiritual
factors for the radical Muslim's hatred for our way of life.


Islamic clerics and political leaders espouse inflammatory anti-
Semitic and anti-Christian rhetoric based on the writings and
sayings of Mohammed.

The prosperity and technology of nations that are based on Judeo-
Christian values embarrasses the Islamic claim of spiritual/cultural
superiority and provokes them to virulent jealousy.

[Leon Uris]

The premise for
Islam's exaggerated sense of spiritual/cultural superiority is built
on the widely held Muslim view that they led the world in advances
in math, literature and the sciences from 700AD until 1200AD. Many
scholars contend that the advances were actually a continuum of the
momentum that had been attained, prior to the arrival of the
Muslims, by the Persians, Jews, and Christians. A comparison of
Islamic nations and other nations gives ample evidence that Islam
stifles rather than inspires innovations. No other nations, other
than under Muslim rule, that have claimed a history of being
fountainheads of cultural advances have ceased to continue as such.
Two atomic bombs have not stopped the Japanese. Politically torn
South Korea, without oil, has a gross national product of $600
billion. Oil rich Saudi Arabia's GNP is a mere $186 billion. Each
year since 1901, the Nobel Prize has been awarded to people that
have been distinguished for notable endeavors for world peace and in
literature, and for outstanding accomplishments in the sciences.
During the history of the Nobel there have been 139 Jewish
recipients and well over 200 Christians, but only 6 recipients from
Islamic nations. There is nothing lacking in the mental capacities
of Muslim people, because they flourish in technology and the
sciences when living in Westernized democracies. The objective
evidence is that it is the rule of Islam that is the culprit that
smothers creativity.

5 Things that you can do to protect your family and community!

Educate your kids - It is essential that parents educate their
children about the dangers of embracing Islam as the path of
expression for their personal faith. The points that have been made
in this report can be modified and gently shared with your
youngsters. In reality, becoming a Muslim holds sure perils that
eclipse the remote potential of being harmed by Islamic terrorists.
This is particularly true of your daughters. Islamic law puts women
in a position that excludes them from many of the liberties that
Western parents expect their children to enjoy as adults. My book,
The Muslim Masquerade, and Abdullah Al-Araby's, Islam Unveiled,
disclose many of the human rights violations that Islam routinely
permits Muslim men to perpetrate against women. Many young women
from Christian backgrounds have fallen prey to the intriguing appeal
of Islamic men. Countless numbers of these hapless women have reaped
tragic lives of heartache. Don't let it happen to your child. God
honors the prayers of parents that begin to regularly pray for the
future spouses of their children while they are still in diapers.
Pray that our national, state, and local police investigative
agencies will uncover the plots of the multitudes of terror cell
members and their supporters that are living amongst us. In faith,
rather than fear, intermittently ask the Lord to protect your
children, family, and friends from potential harm by homicide
bombers.

Work to insure that our nation's Immigration and Naturalization
Service will have the wisdom to limit the number of visas granted to
persons under the age of 50 from Islamic backgrounds. Do whatever
you can to help the authorities locate those that have false
documents and expired visas.

Become a profiler - The liberal establishment insists that our
nation's constitutional amendments limit the extent to which ethnic
and religious profiling can be utilized. Regardless of the
politically correct limitations, as an American citizen, you are
free to choose not to be politically correct. You can assist in the
needed profiling. When profiling do not hone in on people simply
because they have Middle Eastern physical features. Potential
Islamic terrorists cover the entire spectrum of the nationalities of
those that adhere to Christianity. It is erroneous to suspect that
everyone with Arab physical features is a potential terrorist. Not
all Arabs are Muslims and not all Muslims are Arabs. Less than 25%
of the followers of Islam are of Arabic heritage. In America, 80% of
the resident Arabs are actually Christian in their religious
affiliation. The identification of potential terrorists should never
be based solely on racial features. When it is, a Thai Buddhist can
easily be mistaken for an Islamic Indonesian. A group of Nigerian
Muslims could easily pass as African Baptists. Armenian Christians
may look very similar to Afghani Muslims. The key is to be observant
of everyone's demeanor. Keep a watchful eye on fellow travelers when
using public transportation. Nervousness, exaggerated clock-
watching, over concern with carry-on luggage, and rude avoidance of
customary cordialness can all be indicators. If anyone or anything
looks suspicious, regardless of the nationality of those involved,
report it to the authorities. Subsequent to terrorist attacks
monitor the responses of people in venues where terrorism supporters
might be expected to congregate: mosques, convenience marts,
university campuses, etc.; if anyone acts hostile or overly
jubilant, report it to the FBI.

Educate others - Put legs on your prayers by sending this report to
your friends, clergymen, and any civic representatives that are
responsible for the safety of the nation and our communities.

Jim Croft's book, The Muslim Masquerade, and his teaching
newsletter, In Search of Truth, may be obtained by contacting him
via e-mail. jimcroftministries@u...

[Leon Uris]

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgiPage=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA7501


Terror in America (23) Muslim Soldiers in the U.S. Armed Forces in Afghanistan: To Fight or Not to Fight?As soon as the U.S. geared up for the war against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, Muslim military personnel in the American armed forces began to deal with the question of the religious permissibility of their participation in battle. Army Chaplain Capt. Abd Al-Rasheed Muhammad, the Imam of Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C. sent an inquiry on the matter to the North American Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) Council, which in turn referred the matter to clerics in the Arab world. The clerics issued a Fatwa permitting Muslim soldiers to take part in the fighting if there was no alternative, and the council delivered the ruling to Capt. Muhammad. But on October 30, the editor of the Arabic London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat reported that the clerics who signed this Fatwa had changed their minds and abrogated their previous Fatwa with a new one prohibiting participation of Muslim soldiers in the war in Afghanistan. The Unfolding of EventsFollowing the attacks of September 11 and the subsequent preparations for war, Capt. Muhammad sent his inquiry to the council. Seven years earlier, when he was asked by the Arab weekly Al-Majalah following his appointment in 1994 about his opinion on American forces fighting in Islamic countries, he said, "We are soldiers, not politicians. Obeying orders is a fundamental part of the work of the military, but I hope that America's relations with Islamic countries and with other countries will be always good, and if we are forced to intervene, the intervention will be positive. I pray to Allah every day that we will not be forced to fight our Muslim brothers, although Muslims kill each other in their civil wars here and there, which saddens me."[1] Nevertheless, in 2001 Capt. Muhammad felt that on such a momentous matter, it was best to consult with external Islamic authorities. In his letter to the council, he outlined the goals of the prospective war and concluded that more than 15,000 Muslim military personnel serve in all three branches of the U.S. armed forces, and that if they refuse to participate in the fighting, they would have to resign, which might have other consequences. Finally, he asked whether it is permissible for those able to transfer to serve in capacities other than direct fighting.[2] Capt. Muhammad first sent his inquiry to Dr. Taha Jaber Al-'Alwani, president of North American Fiqh Council. Al-'Alwani passed it on to several well-known clerics in the Arab world. He told Al-Sharq Al-Awsat why he did this: "When a question is referred to us, we often consult with our brothers, colleagues, and teachers in the Islamic world. We send the question to several experts among the clerics, and when we receive their answers, we [usually] adopt their Fatwas as they are written, and back them up with proof and explanations – because the Western mind, as you know, cannot accept anything if it is not proven and explained. Sometimes, we introduce changes in the Fatwa..." "Many Fatwas [on the matter] were issued at the time of the Gulf War," said Al-'Alwani, "and we tried to gather and study them. At the same time, we sent [Capt. Muhammad's inquiry] on to a group of clerics in the Muslim world, asking that they advise us about the new catastrophe." "[There were] instances during the Gulf War when many Muslim military personnel were advised to [transfer] to auxiliary corps such as supplies and transportation. It appeared that several Muslim military personnel's refusal to serve in the war against a Muslim nation led to Muslim American soldiers being looked at askance... Therefore, we made sure that the matter did not reach the Arab or Western media, and that it would remain between us and the Muslim chaplains in the U.S. Department of Defense. But to our surprise, some Arab and European media, and afterwards American media, addressed this matter, and we found ourselves facing a fait accompli.

[Ali Muhammad]

After reading all of that I am overwhelmed and quite saddened...it is obvious that people are more willing to listen to a single persons book...who has the right to voice his opinion...then to actually study and learn for them selves, that just shows the ignorance of some people, I have read the Holy Qur'an as well as the Holy Bible...and the Holy Torah and can tell you in non of them do I actually find any of the things accused in the thread. Simon and other's you may want to do actual research into non-politically and anger driven books and articles as you mentioned and actually read the scriptures and books in question you may learn more then you thought you would. Of course you will find bad people in Islam...people who wish to take your mind off god and on to their political agenda. People who break Islamic law by beating women and killing innocent civilians. You will find them in every religion, in every country and they will have their day infront of god, and that is where they will pay.

And on another note Simon and others, you keep saying that Islam is intollerant and a religion of hate...but what are you doing right now??? To change the way people see you have to change your self first.


W'asalaam (peace be upon you),

Ali Muhammad

[atricnorth]

After reading all of that I am overwhelmed and quite saddened...it is obvious that people are more willing to listen to a single persons book...who has the right to voice his opinion...then to actually study and learn for them selves, that just shows the ignorance of some people, I have read the Holy Qur'an as well as the Holy Bible...and the Holy Torah and can tell you in non of them do I actually find any of the things accused in the thread. Simon and other's you may want to do actual research into non-politically and anger driven books and articles as you mentioned and actually read the scriptures and books in question you may learn more then you thought you would. Of course you will find bad people in Islam...people who wish to take your mind off god and on to their political agenda. People who break Islamic law by beating women and killing innocent civilians. You will find them in every religion, in every country and they will have their day infront of god, and that is where they will pay.

And on another note Simon and others, you keep saying that Islam is intollerant and a religion of hate...but what are you doing right now??? To change the way people see you have to change your self first.


W'asalaam (peace be upon you),

Ali Muhammad


remember, ishmael prophecy on his generation

he will be against his brothers
he will be against everyone
he will be a wild donkey
he will live in hostility towards all his brothers

genesis 17:12


try explaining that curse to all the muslims who are under that, try explaining why is in reality muslims( sunni, shiite and kurd) and the religion as a whole are so similiar to the prophecy.

dont you see it, the blind leading the blind.

please eat more rice, but dont get bloated.
we are more seasoned than you.

put some salt into it and chilly, u will learn something out of it.

[Mira]

and here I was under the impression that aussies were hospitable. :rolleyes:

[Ali Muhammad]

remember, ishmael prophecy on his generation

he will be against his brothers
he will be against everyone
he will be a wild donkey
he will live in hostility towards all his brothers

genesis 17:12


try explaining that curse to all the muslims who are under that, try explaining why is in reality muslims( sunni, shiite and kurd) and the religion as a whole are so similiar to the prophecy.

dont you see it, the blind leading the blind.

please eat more rice, but dont get bloated.
we are more seasoned than you.

put some salt into it and chilly, u will learn something out of it.



My brother atricnorth,

I am familiar with that Passage but am sorry to say that what Ishmael (P.B.U.H.) was referring to was the growing hostility of the social ladder of economics, he was saying that the world is growing colder and is forgetting the roots that brought mankind to his generation...when he said HE he was referring to all of mankind.

If what you were trying to say was that he was referring to Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) then I remind you to read the Qur'an and see what is says about past prophets, from Adam (P.B.U.H) to Moses (P.B.U.H) to Jesus (P.B.U.H) to Ishmael (P.B.U.H) and 342,000 more all of the past prophets of god are beloved just as Muhammad so that passage in the context you put it is false.

Thank you brother!

W'asalaam,

Ali Muhammad

[Ali Muhammad]

I am sorry but I forgot to address the issue of Sunni and Shia Islam...the only difference is a historical one...on the decendency of Muhammad and the Caliphate. It is a very detailed and interesting history resulting Shia's observing 12 error free Imam's most notably Imam Ali (P.B.U.H). If you are referring to the violence in Iraq over the sects I remind you that there is a war going on and people in the region have been tribal for thousands of years so differences mean a lot more to them and can result in misunderstanding. I myself am Shia and many of my greatest friends are Sunni so I can tell you that in the rest and majority of the world sect means nothing....as in Christianity.

Thank you again my brother!

W'asalaam,

Ali Muhammad

[tzanchan]

you know, im even against being so pr that you can't say a controversial truth, once in a while...

but in my opinion, posts like the above give israel forums and jewish forums a bad name, it breeds only bad feelings.

i'm even interested in reading the book to see what it has to say, but please, if you're recommending a book which is so anti-someone else's religeon, a religeon which for better or for worse has certainly earned itself a place into human civilization, why not give a warningor something that some may find it offensive or something?

i dunno, i mention this, cuz i've seen VERY similar stuff said by neo-nazis about the talmud, it just pisses me off.

o well, peace.

well said

[tzanchan]

Response from: TheAZCowBoy

Same ole Jewish "caca" response, huh folks?

Silence and more silence when the "Anti-Semitic" behavior is in the Jews corner.

Pslam 124:20 explains much of what is to be expected Zionist Israel......

"Jehovah is guarding those that love him---the evil ones he will annihilate!" :mad:


while mediocrates response was sub par and of no use, dan holo's site and modern genetics debunked your khazaria theory years back.

[Mediocrates]

I'm glad you focused on my one word response from 3 years ago. Kudos!

[Greta]

[QUOTE=Ali Muhammad]After reading all of that I am overwhelmed and quite saddened...it is obvious that people are more willing to listen to a single persons book...who has the right to voice his opinion...then to actually study and learn for them selves, that just shows the ignorance of some people, I have read the Holy Qur'an as well as the Holy Bible...and the Holy Torah

And on another note Simon and others, you keep saying that Islam is intollerant and a religion of hate...but what are you doing right now??? To change the way people see you have to change your self first.


Well, the "holy Torah" and the "holy Bible" are not being accused of anything on this thread. So, if Islam is not an intolerant religion that does not preach hate, where is the Islamic world outcry against what your "bad" people are doing in the name of Allah and the Holy Qur'an? This terror is worldwide, and all encompassing. It's as menacing as Hitler's Germany was, and no less. Yet I have not heard any protests from the peaceful Muslims against the bad name your fundamentalist factions are giving you ( as you seem to see it, and I mean in the world, not on this board). When I hear one Muslim tell me that they think Israel has the claim to the land, and the right to exist, and that a Palestinian state should be created outside of the entire state of Israel, maybe then I'll believe you are sincere. Until then, it is the same old song and dance.

[Greta]

What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East -- by Bernard Lewis

What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response -- by Bernard Lewis

The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror -- by Bernard Lewis

[Illuminatus]

Some pretty good book reviews

1) ”What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East” – book review
For many centuries, the Islamic world was at the forefront of human civilization, one of the greatest powers on earth. He provides an exciting and detailed demonstration of Islamic military strength, economic achievement, and advancement in the arts and sciences. Lewis leaves little doubt that between the decline of antiquity and the dawn of modernity, Islamic culture reigned supreme.

However, Lewis continues by showing that since the beginning of the modern era, the once-spectacular Islamic civilization has become weak, poor and ignorant. What went wrong? Bernard Lewis acutely examines several critical societal aspects, including social barriers, concepts of time and space, militarization, modernization, and cultural change, as he traces the rise and fall of Islam’s leaders in an effort to determine what actually occured in the Middle East.
http://www.yaleisraeljournal.com/spr2003/whatwentwrong.html

2) Islam's Wrong Turns. – "What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response" - book review

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_3_54/ai_82757196

3) ”The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror” - book review

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0310/reviews/wilken.html

quote:
[.. The “crisis” of which Lewis speaks is a crisis in the Arab world. ..]

[Ray]

but in my opinion, posts like the above give israel forums and jewish forums a bad name, it breeds only bad feelings.

i'm even interested in reading the book to see what it has to say, but please, if you're recommending a book which is so anti-someone else's religeon, a religeon which for better or for worse has certainly earned itself a place into human civilization, why not give a warningor something that some may find it offensive or something?


To be a bigot is an end of education and openess in thought.

To advocate that one should not read a book because one must have mental peace at all costs, is to put a veil over the brain. Sort of putting one mind on Polar ice or prefering to hibernate in a timewrap!

It is an illiterates way of adopting escapism for the fear of the unknown "truth".

And yet at the same time, if one reads even books which are factually spun, it at least allows the mind to discern the chaff from the wheat!

Therefore, the choice is between being an educated illiterate and being a educated emancipated!

[andak01]

To be a bigot is an end of education and openess in thought.

To advocate that one should not read a book because one must have mental peace at all costs, is to put a veil over the brain. Sort of putting one mind on Polar ice or prefering to hibernate in a timewrap!

It is an illiterates way of adopting escapism for the fear of the unknown "truth".

And yet at the same time, if one reads even books which are factually spun, it at least allows the mind to discern the chaff from the wheat!

Therefore, the choice is between being an educated illiterate and being a educated emancipated!

I agree. So don't stop your Islamic education with Bernard Lewis. I'd suggest that just occasionally Muslims know as much about Islam as non-Muslims. Moreover, not every non-Muslim is an Islam basher. Karen Hughes for example wrote a beautiful life of Prophet Muhammed that I often recommend as well as several other books on Islam. John Esposito is another incredible scholar. Bilal Philips is a Muslim convert from Jamaica that lectures in Arabic throughout the Arab world. His books are a brilliant introduction to Islam.

[Ray]

One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest!

I sure don't want to fly over any nest.

Who is advocating that read only on Islam bashing?

Islam loving too is necessary for an overall education.

Then sift the wheat from the chaff is all that one must do.

[Achihud]

...

[andak01]

Originally Posted by Leon Uris
About the Koran's violent verses - The Koran was written in two major stages. These have been integrated and arranged by chapter length as opposed to the chronological order in which they were initially written.

Pardon me, but that's just crud. The arrangement has to do with the order in which Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was observed to have recited them on the occasions towards the end of his life when he did recite the entire Quran.

If you still believe that they were arranged according to length, go count the lengths.

Surah 1 - 7 verses
Surah 2 - 286 verses
Surah 3 - 200 verses
Surah 4 - 176 verses
Surah 5 - 120 verses
Surah 6 - 165 verses
Surah 7 - 206 verses
Surah 8 - 75 verses
Surah 9 - 129 verses
Surah 10 - 109 verses
etc.

I do hope you aren't working as a clerk. Your sorting is dreadful.

[Achihud]

Still better then being naive when it comes to the Mecca-clinchers!

[Cato]

Anybody who says this


"Actually the flow was from east Europe to the west---the Khazarian Jews drifted into Ukraine, Russia and Poland and eventually began to dominate in Western Europe until the guy with the funny mustache decided he had had enough of the Jewish domination and humiliation of the German people."

Forfiets his/her right to be heard on any issue. Yes he/she has the right to say it, but nobody should listen.

[Ossian]

Hey Leon Uris,

I've been reading your posts from the earlier page and wonder why you don't just write a book, you could call it "the Poisonous Mushroom" for children so that they can pick out 'evil' muslims' in society?

[JaboLucius]

I wonder. How much energy does it take to make up all the lies against the Jews. I have yet to see Muslims or Palestinians be marginalized in the world like Jews and Christians have. If you, TheAZCowboy, are a racist, why do you side with the Arabs? Aren't they not white? Don't they represent a group that is "less than human" to you? You (TheAZCowboy), speak as though you envy the Germans during the holocaust. You sound as though you wish you were there, as an active participant. What am I saying...TheAZCowboy, you probably deny that it ever happened.

Now, supposing that you are a Christian, do you not listen to Jesus at His word when he said, "...salvation is of the Jews." - John 4:22.

Why do you hate and persecute so, TheAZCowboy?

[Ali_Muhammad]

Dear Simon,

I also highly recommend this book for the jewish readers of this forum. Its called the Talmud....you may have heard of it. Instead of bashing other religions and being a hipocrite follower of th Jewish faith by practicing hatred look at your own scripture. Perhaps then you would refrain from looking like an ignorant, nazi idiot. After all....didn't Hitler preach hatred for a who religion of people??? I could be wrong.

OK to Have Sex With a Child:
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Adults Allowed to Have Sex with Little Girls:
Kethuboth 11b. When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing.

Jews Allowed to Marry 3-year old Girls:
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

OK for Jews to Have Sex with 3-year old Child:
Babylonian Talmud States:
"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Attitude Towards Non-Jewish Children:
Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile (Non-Jewish) children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile (Non-Jewish) girls are in a state of filth (niddah) from birth.

Non-Jews are Not Human:
Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human.
Schene luchoth haberuth, p 250b. Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew as a monkey to a human.
Baba Mezia, 114b (page referrals). The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts.

Honoring Dogs More Than Non-Jews:
Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30. The Akum is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the Non-Jew.

Segregation of Women (and Dogs):
Pesahim 111a (p. 571). It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.

It's OK to Kill & Steal from Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a Gentile (Non-Jew), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

It's OK for Jews to Lie to Non-Jews:
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (subterfuges) to circumvent a Gentile (Non-Jew).

Destroying Christian Books:
Shabbath 116a (p. 569). Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

Jesus' Mother Mary was a Whore:
Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother had sex with many men.

Treatment of Pregnant Non-Jews:
Coschen Hamischpat 405. A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal.

Non-Jews are Disgusting:
Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b. If you eat with a non-Jew it is the same as eating with a dog.

Toilet Dust and Honey for Health:
Gittin 69a. To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

Eating Dog's Excrement Mixed with Balsam:
Gittin 69b (p. 329). To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs."

It's OK Not to Pay Owed Wages to Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not pay a Gentile (Non-Jew) the wages owed him for work.

It's OK for Jews to do Evil:
Moed Kattan 17a. If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Hitting a Jew or Hitting a God:
Sanhedrin 58b. If a Gentile (Non-Jew) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

No Need to Return Lost Objects to Non-Jews:
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile (Non-Jew) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

It's OK to Kill Non-Jews:
Sepher Ikkarim III c 25. It is permited to take the body and life of a Gentile (Non-Jew).
Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425. It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah.
Bammidber raba c 21 & jalkut 772. Every Jew who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God.

Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog. Translation: Even the best of the Gentiles (Non-Jews) should all be killed. <------ This passage is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617). This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been altered, 'The best among the Egyptians' being generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b]. Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press of June 9, 1989, p. 56B). On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Khazar from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Rabbi Kahane who has stated that his view of Arabs as "dogs" is "from the Talmud." (Cf. CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane"). University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against 'goyim,' a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5). Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5). Rabbi Yaacov Perrin says, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

It is lawful for a girl three years old to have sexual intercourse (Abodah Zarah, 37a; Kethuboth, 11b,39a; Sanhedrin, 55b,69a,b; Yebamoth, 12a,57b,58a,60b).

When a man commits sodomy with a boy under nine years of age, it "is not deemed as pederasty" (Sanhedrin, 54b,55a).

Sexual intercourse with a boy under the age of eight is lawful since it isn't fornication (Sanhedrin, 69b).
The birth of a girl is an unhappy event (Baba Bathra, 16b).
All women are "temperamentally light-headed" (Kiddushin, 80b).

It is okay to divorce your wife if she spoils your food, or if you find a more beautiful woman (Gittin, 91a).
Since all Gentiles are only animals, all Gentile children are bastards (Yebamoth, 98a).




Think about those before you attempt to defame and be anti-semetic against Arabs and Muslims....YES "anti-semetic" the term means to discriminate against any peoples of the semetic languages ie. Hebrew, Arabic, Ethiopian, North African

************************************************** ********All verses came from http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/index.html an accurate version of the Seders.

[Mediocrates]

Yes? And? Is Talmud law or is Talmud discussions on Law? You raised the issue. I mean of you're going to cut a few hundred words out of 60 volumes of text in 3 different languages, 2 of which are dead, comprising several million words I'd like to know your opinion on whether Gemarah is Law or commentary?

Also please show me the contextual discussions of the translation from Aramaic to English. As far as I know Aramaic has a vocabulary of about 5000 words vs 100x that for English.

I've seen these exact sections culled before from the same old people ranting the same old things. It's amazing how haters all seem to be able to distill 60 volumes of text down to the same dozen excerpts at the drop of a hat? What is it? You guys have a listserv?

[scattergood]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/exp.html

This link has a pretty comprehensive list of responses to the cut and paste trash the troll has provided.

[Talitha]

I agree. So don't stop your Islamic education with Bernard Lewis. I'd suggest that just occasionally Muslims know as much about Islam as non-Muslims. Moreover, not every non-Muslim is an Islam basher. Karen Hughes for example wrote a beautiful life of Prophet Muhammed that I often recommend as well as several other books on Islam. John Esposito is another incredible scholar. Bilal Philips is a Muslim convert from Jamaica that lectures in Arabic throughout the Arab world. His books are a brilliant introduction to Islam.

John Esposito, Karen Hughes and Bilal Philips are Muslim apologistic propagandists. The first two are bought by Moslems, the latter one is a Jihadist.

[Ali_Muhammad]

Mediocrates....thank you for proving my point...the Quran is the same way so I expect never to see anything like what I did done to the Quran again....

[Parsi]

Robert Spencer goes beyond the media's shallow distinction between "true" Islam and terrorist Islam to demonstrate - in the words of Muslims themselves - that Islamic fanaticism and terrorism are rooted in the Qur'an and core Islamic traditions. He shows that since Muslim radicalism stems from elements at the religion's heart, Islamic moderates (and cowardly Western multiculturalists) will never convince the Muslim world at large that there is no place for violence in Islam.

Yes, the true Islam is what Bin Laden and the fanatics in London practice. The "western-friendly" version of Islam that the apologists try to portray the gullible westerners is dishonest, inaccurate and inconsistent with Quran, Hadith and the history of Islam.

And, since Muslims worldwide revere Muhammad as the greatest model of human behavior, Spencer explores the tumultuous life of prophet of Islam - squarely facing his violence, bloodlust and Clintonesque sexual appetites (and their unsettling implications for the contemporary international scene).

This is why Islam is fundamentally different to other religions. For Muslims Quran is the exact word of Allah - word for word and nothing more or less. For them Quran is the book for all times and Mohammad remains the best example and model to follow.

[Parsi]

Mediocrates....thank you for proving my point...the Quran is the same way so I expect never to see anything like what I did done to the Quran again....

Your Quran tells you to kill me wherever you find me. Your Quran tells you to cut my hands and feet of the opposite side....

And Muslims believe that their book is perfect, without any errors. Islam is one of the most serious and dangerous social and political problems of the time. I personally don't hesitate to expose this religion whenever and wherever I can. Islam's ideology is one of the biggest enemies of the human race and civilisation.

[ece]

I am born as muslim. Raised and educated in a secular , laicist country, Turkey, thank God. When I was young I had no problem with Islam, mom and dad were devout muslims, mom had a headscarf, they prayed five times a day, I also prayed and fasted, no headscarf , because in the schools it is forbidden. my father paid for the private schools , I got the best education. Mom had many friends, actually all of her friends, very european from the outlook, they also had no problems, in the contrary mom was very loved, a deeply ethical and honest woman.
Then, something began to change. First we didn't realize. Nobody like us realized. There was the rumours of Saudi money, new newspapers, and then islamic parties surfaced , who used religion in their speeches very openly.
Then came a very harsh coup detat in 1980, backed by Americans.They said there was a big communist threat. Torture,killings , especially bad in the southeast , where mostly kurds live, but also in the west. all the leftist intellectuals were either dead, tortured or totally defeated. They changed everything, the constitution, institutions etc. The chief general, whom the Americans loved so deeply, began to make speeches with Quranic verses.
It was very weird and puzzling, because the Turkish Army is supposed to defend secularity, that was what the founder of Republic said.
Seemingly, very weird things were going on.
After opposition was totally defeated, there began a new era.
Some islamic parties were closed, but new ones appeared immediately.
And , because of EU process, which is a joke, Turkey will never be a full member, this is just a game, with the excuse of democracy, Islamist pary grew, not all the people who vote for them are islamist, even many turkish jews voted for them, but there is a big population of uneducated people who can be fooled very easily. And the islamic sentiment grows and grows , and they are more courageous . Things which couldn't be said , are said now.
And there even some leftists who think islam could be used against western politics.
The same mistakes the persian left made..
Everybody thinks they can use Islam for their own agenda.
Americans: A model of "moderate Islam"
Some Turkish intellectuals: For the EU process in order for more freedom.
Armenians: because Islamist party causes so much problem they can have their own agenda easier
Kurds: Because of this Eu process, more freedom, they can fight better, which they do
EU: Although they will never accept Turkey as a full member, they know Islamist party needs them for propaganda purposes , so half of the voters of Islamist party which are actually not Islamists, feel themselves secure and see EU as a guarantee.EU gets what it wants, economically. they bought out turkey.

At the end, Turkey can be destabilized severely and Islamists can thrive much easier.
At the End, Islam can laugh at all of them, who think they can play games with Islam.
We don't want arabic islam. Turks didn't convert with joy and laughter. Arab sword was very powerful. Many turkish cities in Asia were destroyed and Turks were killed, because Turks were pagans for Arabs they thought they have the right to do with pagans whatevet they wanted , because it is said in the Quran and hadiths.
I hope everbody in the West come to their senses and stop wishful thinking.
True islamic potential is no more than %20. It was like that also before. The problem is they become more indoctrinated, more money from the arabs, Saudis and others and Western politics.
But we have a very deep traditional understanding of anatolian islam, very remote from arabic islam in every aspect.
We are Turkish citizens of a secular republic before all, I don't consider myself a member of umma and never will.
My grand grand grand ......dads had to convert or they had to die.
How can such a religion be a religion of peace.
Christianity is also not a religion of peace, see the History.
Jews don't try to convert peope forcefully
They say , if you keep 7 commandments of Noah you will be saved.
I believe in one God and keep this 7 commandments.
If any religion should be labeled a religion of piece then it should be judaism.
If the world ends according the Islamic version I surely will end up in the hell.

If it will end according the christian version, I will end up in the hell (Calling Jesusd God is the blasphemy which I will never do)

The only version where I don't end up in the hell, is jewish version. And they don't even except from me that I convert.
Can any muslim explain me please why is Islam the best?

[ece]

why the jews of the west thrived so wonderfully intellectually, and jews of the Islamic countries not? Except at the 9, 10, 11 th centuries.
Why even Maimonides had to leave iberian peninsula ?
What is the reality of Andalusian Myth?
It was not rosy at all. Not exactly as in the myths.
Unless Islam goes a thorough reformation like Christianty, there is no hope for Islam and islamic countries. Goldenn age is far far back, they should first think why they have lost it, it is not the fault of Jews or Christians, their own fault.
Oil wells will dry up , sooner or later.

[Yala]

Ece, are your parents still practicing?

[ece]

Yala,

Yes, they practice.
My dad actually was very secular when he was young. He married my mother who was from anatolia. She was a devout muslim, prayed and fasted, at the same time my dad, as he told me, met some arabized muslims frrom some sect, he read Quran in Turkish and became muslim too. But mum stayed all the time typically anatolian muslim, all her friends were secular women, she never interfered or judged other people's business. Dad became more religious, he began to say sharia shoul come back.He tried to interfere with my life.
Now, he changed his mind about sharia but they are still practising
I begged my dad not to vote for AKP next time, I think at least he began to understand. Well, I have been talking for 30 years.:))

[Yala]

Interesting.... So would you say you notice a lot of differences between the young generation and the older, like they are more religious and are starting to wear headscarves more? This is the trend in the Arab world, for ex. in Egypt. Would you say Turkey is going in this direction, or that we just need to watch out for it?

[ece]

The problem is actually not that more young women wear headscarfs , which they do. But at the same time they have make ups and some of them even go to rock concerts. And even hold hands with their boyfriends. So they are critized from the ones with true arabic hearts. It is not so easy to arabize Turkey. Turks never have taken Islam very seriously. They still do get it,, the masses. Most of the young women do this , head scarf thing, in order to gain an identity, they come from lower classes, it is also a class strugle, this "in", now they are accepted. This is dangeous, because you cannot control when it gets out of hand.
The problem is, Turkey has a fast growing population, and indoctrination in the schools should be prevented. Previous week there was a scandal, a teacher showed the pupils a video about the Hell. Somethig like that in a turkish school was unthinkable a year ago. They will punish the teacher , I hope, but some Islamists think they are more powerful now. Things like that happen al the time. And we fight back, neswpapers write, peole talk in tvs.,We do what we can.
Due to the EU process, they make excuse of freedom of religion and the young generation can be indoctrinated, the younger ones , more seriously. We need more freedom, but we get more conservatism. That is the weird result of democracy.
Islamists make takiyya.(Machiavelists) ) This is an old islamic tradition. They use democracy.
I always remember Hitler's democratic rise to power. Democracy is not a sacred word which can protect us from every thing.

[ece]

Turkishdailynews.com.tr

The turban, multiple wives, and a hundred lashes
Wednesday, May 7, 2008


The turban is not mentioned in the Koran. But the legitimacy of having up to four wives and a hundred lashes in case of adultery are. Should we change our penal code accordingly?


Burak BEKDİL
Had Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan not felt so dizzy about his election victory, he would probably not have decided to keep his long-delayed promise to his Islamic constituencies and liberalize the turban on campus. And had he not done so, Turkey’s ruling party would probably not have faced a legal challenge for its closure. That, along with a series of recent “social news” featuring “how observant Muslim men view and treat women,” makes it necessary to correct parts of the Islamic propaganda.

In fact, the main opposition party which boasts of being the guardian of Turkey’s secular regime should have done this country a favor and itself spearheaded the parliamentary initiative to lift the campus ban on the turban. But it is too late for should-have-done’s. The damage is already done .



What’s wrong with many wives?:

Let’s go back to the turban. What was Mr. Erdoğan’s justification for his “freedom for the turban” campaign? Ladies wear this garment because they believe it is God’s commandment. Ostensibly, a very convincing argument. Things may look different, though, with a more in-depth thinking. Mr Erdoğan’s party’s not-so-shrewd move to amend the Constitution “because some ladies believe a certain practice is God’s commandment” could set a very perilous precedent.

First, let’s get our facts straight: there is no mention of any appropriate headwear for Muslim women in the Koran. So, the belief that any headscarf is God’s commandment is a personal interpretation of the holy book – an interpretation everyone must respect no matter how dubious it may be. But there are some very explicit commandments in the Koran which a dogmatic/absolutist Muslim cannot ignore – unless he is politically motivated to do so.

Recently, the man known to be Turkey’s Muslim fashion guru hit the headlines when secular(ist) media discovered he had three wives. “So what?” the man logically asked, “Having multiple wives (as long as the husband treats them equally) is allowed in our religion and is better than adultery since men by nature cannot be monogamous.” He came under cross-fire -- from the secularists as well as from senior figures in Mr Erdoğan’s party.

For example, Halide İncekara, a lady MP from Mr Erdoğan’s party, said that “it was impossible to accept multiple wives.” Former AKP minister for women’s rights, now an MP, Güldal Akşit, said that “she would not consider unofficial wives (wives men marry by religious ceremony) as spouses.” Similarly, Mr Erdoğan’s party’s deputy chairman, Nükhet Hotar Göksel, said that “she defended single marriage.”

All that’s very nice; but is there not something bizarre here? On the one hand the AKP fiercely advocates a Muslim practice, the turban, although this practice is not even mentioned in the Koran, and on the other it stands against a practice which is explicitly mentioned in the Koran (according to the Koran it is perfectly legitimate if men marry up to four wives and treat them equally). How come, the House of the AKP which has “Muslim thinking” about all things worldly “not accept” a practice allowed by God?

Is there not a contradiction here? Why legitimize a practice not mentioned in the Koran only because “some people believe it is God’s commandment,” and turn around and whistle about another practice undisputedly deemed “legitimate” in the Koran? Do some people not think having up to four wives is part of their faith?



What’s wrong with lashes?:

That’s the troubling part about the turban. If we apply the same rule – that we can make/change laws in favor of a practice because some people think it is God’s commandment—to God’s commandments explicitly mentioned in the Koran we should also end up with what Mr. Erdoğan proposed a few years earlier: criminalizing adultery.

But Mr. Erdoğan was wrong about the appropriate sentence for this act when he proposed a prison term. The Koranic verse on adultery describes in detail about how this act should be penalized: “The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out God’s law, if you truly believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty. (Koran, 24:2)”

In this case, why should Mr. Erdoğan and his men not legislate a hundred lashes for adultery “because Muslims believe in this practice” – and further because it is explicitly God’s commandment, just like avoiding alcohol and pork. Since there are not “more important verses” against “less important verses,” why all that trademark perseverance about the turban (and alcohol and pork) and the “let’s-not-talk-about-it” shyness on multiple wives and the whip for adultery?

Another recent piece of “social news” the secular(ist) press jumped into was about the 78-year-old columnist, a heavyweight of the Islamic press, who has been arrested on charges of sexual abusing a 14-year-old girl. The accused could have been a man of any ideology since perverted behavior is not limited to any race, religion or ideology.



Partisan and confused:

All the same, it was stunning news, no doubt, but the way both the secular(ist) and the Islamist newspapers covered the incident was truly disgusting (or simply too partisan): The secular(ist) editors showcased the incident around a not-so-hidden “see your pervert Islamist mujahadeen” theme; while the Islamic coverage focused on the ideas that (a) this is a conspiracy against an Islamist columnist, and (b) Muslim fighters should be tolerated if they “stumble” in their private lives while fighting for Islam.

But such partisan behavior is hardly surprising in a polarized country like Turkey where confused minds often produce confusing interpretations of confusing incidents, a habit even amusing at certain times. Recently, the police in Istanbul raided a wedding ceremony in which a couple of teenagers, with consent of their families, were to get married. They were not permitted to marry.

Legal proceedings were launched against the would-be groom, himself underage, for “illegally keeping an underage girl.” The would-be bride was only 14, or one year younger than our First Lady when she married our president.

[ece]

This is the country where nowadays the greatest fight between islamists and seculars are fought.This result of this fight will be important for future of Middle East and Europe, even the other nations are not fully aware of it.

A glossary of Turkish political terms
Wednesday, April 16, 2008


I gather there is a general confusion over the most important terms and concepts in Turkish politics. I hope my homemade glossary could help a little bit

BURAK BEKDİL
I gather there is a general confusion over the most important terms and concepts in Turkish politics. I hope my homemade glossary could help a little bit.We often argue, column-to-column, face-to-face, message-to-message, on various contentious issues surrounding the never-boring Turkish political affairs, indeed without agreeing on a common terminology. In the hope of making a modest contribution to our future arguments, here is an introductory glossary of Turkish political terms:

Anti-Americanism: A state of mental delirium of which Islamists and nationalists accuse each other. In fact both accusations are true, for different reasons.

Anti-Semitism: see anti-Americanism.

Bribe: A de facto “halal” earning that allows politicians and bureaucrats to live on their modest salaries without any dishonest income. A major means of redistribution of income.

Conservatism: A political doctrine in which a politician defends existing evils as opposed to Liberalism, in which a politician would wish to replace them with the new ones.

Conciliation: A parliamentary session at which government and opposition MPs discuss their salaries and other benefits.

Constituents: A long queue of people waiting in front of MP's office rooms for jobs, business contracts and other favors in return for their votes in the next election.

Corruption: An infidel slandering against honestly Muslim Turks. A western attempt to weaken the integrity of the world's most honest nation. Also a banking coincidence of erroneous wire transfer into a bigwig's account coupled with a government contract for the sender.

Coup d'etat: A state of undemocratic rule the Turks hate but give 92 percent consent.

Cyprus: A Mediterranean island that is considered as a province of Turkey by the Turks. Possibly one of the few common denominators uniting all different ideologies in the Turkish political spectrum.

Demagoguery: Whatever a rival politician says.

Dishonesty: A prerequisite to political success.

Election: The only day in a span of four years that the average Turk believes he is an important man. A sine-qua-non for the subsequent public deception.

Election pledges: A grandiose public deception which, in the corporate world, would have led to multi-billion dollar compensation cases.

EU, the: Jobs with fat salaries for most of our “enlightened” nation; the instigator of Project Sevres Version 21st century” for the nationalists; a full motor insurance for motorist Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in case his car crashed into a tank.

Free speech: Tolerance, as long as the speech fits into the ruling ideology. An attack on “our moral values” when it does not.

Honesty: An imaginary condition voters tend to believe exists in politics.

Hypocrisy: (see politics) Muslim hypocrisy: Islamic banking. Jewish hypocrisy: Shabbat elevator.

Infidel: Anyone who practices Islam less observantly than you.

Innocence: The state or condition of a politician before he becomes a full-fledged politician. If this unwanted case persists, the person disappears from the political scene.

Intention: Mostly the opposite of what a politician says he intends.

Islamism: Overt abstinence of alcohol and pork, semi-overt desire to see an increase in the number of observant Muslims, and a covert desire to see the whole world converting to Islam. Judicial coup d'etat: The chief public prosecutor attempting to ban the ruling party.

Judicial perfection: The Constitutional Court removing the political ban of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

Judiciary: The institution most Turks think is corrupt. These days the institution secular Turks tend to trust.

Kemalism: An ideology a quarter of Turks militantly defend, half of them are indifferent to and another quarter hate.

Liberalism: A nice political doctrine used as a weapon to defend the rights of fellow ideologues. Just like a Windows application, liberalism disappears into the background when at stake is an opponent ideology, its symbols or the rights of its defenders.

Muslim democrats: The imaginary tag former and present Islamists use to look pretty to their western supporters and to avoid clashes with the secular military.

National view: The “illegal shirt” Recep Tayyip Erdoğan once wore, then said he took off, but was recently prosecuted for secretly putting it on at his home.

Nationalism: Shooting in the air and killing your neighbor's six-year-old child after a national football victory.

Nation's will: The most often-repeated concept for the winner of an election. A democratic carte blanche for undemocratic rule.

Nepotism: Appointing the village imam as head of a hospital in Istanbul, or your 80-year-old aunt as head of the Football Association. Formerly, appointing a junior banker as minister for economy.

Packs of food: (also sacks of coal) Principal instrument to garner votes.

Politics: The patriotic art of mass deception to satisfy any feeling of power fetish often disguised as heroism.

Opinion polls: Principal instruments for political manipulation. Ironically, some may prove to be accurate.

Parliament: A sacrosanct house that gives legal immunity to its tenants who follow their private agendas disguised as representing the nation.

Poetry: A literary discipline which may put a future prime minister in gaol. In the 1970s it meant a ban and prison for a script that read: “We shall walk hand in hand / and always forward…”

President: The job that allows Islamist politicians to use their “religious-meters” in electing someone for the presumably apolitical position. Job qualifications in 2007 included a wife with the turban.

Secularism: The always-nervous retired woman who shouts at her cleaning lady because she had voted for the AKP.

Social democracy: In the past, contracts to businessmen from a selected sect of Islam; today, political isolationism.

Sultan: The person the Turks often think is their prime minister.

Traitor: Anyone who thinks different than you in matters of national ethos.

Turban: (what if … is a political symbol) The jewel of 21st century Turkish political semiotics. An excuse seculars and Islamists love to justify their wars which, without the turban, also would have broken out.

USA, the: The country all Turks say they hate but would pack up and immigrate to within 15 minutes if given the chance.

[ece]

I'm not in total agrrement with the writer, because I believe the islamization can't stop halfways, it goes up to sharia.
And there are people who openly want sharia. The top politicians can't declare this wish, because they would be prosecuted immediately.
This guy writes funny and speaks out a lot of truth that is the reason I paste his articles

Democratic jihad?
Friday, April 4, 2008


I would bet that in the unwanted event of an ‘unpopular coup’ the ‘nation’s will’ would probably show up in the form of 70 percent support for that coup if in two years’ time a coup constitution is put to referendum

Burak BEKDİL
Necmettin Erbakan, former prime minister, the guru of political Islam in Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's one-time heroic mentor and the man with a prison sentence for siphoning off his party's money, once said that the Islamic revolution in Turkey would crop up sooner or later “with or without blood.” His young and talented apprentice, Mr. Erdoğan, took the wiser option, “without blood,” the day he deserted his master's academy.These days the deserter is facing the same judicial threat his master faced several times during his long political career. Can this be explained by a “simple twist of fate?” Not really. Half a dozen times is too big a number for “coincidence.” The fact is, Mssrs Erbakan and Erdoğan are politicians with the same goals but different means to reach these goals.

No, not shariah:

What are these common goals? Shariah? No, both Mr. Erbakan and Mr. Erdoğan would only be viewed as “infidels” by genuine pro-Shariah fanatics. Their ideological color is too “light green” for the “shiny green” Shariah camp. For one thing, it would be terribly unfair to fabricate a connection between the ideological wars of Mr. Erbakan and Mr. Erdoğan and violence. Neither the master nor the former apprentice is a Jihadist. They merely wish to Islamize their country “without resorting to violence” and preferably by all possible democratic means which is fine. So where, really, is the problem?Are they really crashing into a despotic wall each time they make progress with their end goal because their secular opponents are too despotic? Maybe. If so, why are their secular opponents so incurably despotic when it comes to the “Islamization” of Turkey? Why can they not tolerate a “perfectly democratic will of the nation?” Why are they so badly allergic to any degree of socio-political Islamization? Is it because these visible and invisible men hate their country, hate Islam, hate anything with a religious connotation, hate anything that goes beyond the Kemalist dogma? Can they be secret enemies of the country they say they love? Or are they just a bunch of disillusioned elites whose percentage in what makes “our great nation” is exponentially diminishing? Are they traitors?

Unfortunately, a realistic answer to any of those questions does not exist. Even worse, opposite answers do exist, depending on the ideology of the person who might volunteer to answer them. Worst, the answer to each of the question is either a “yes” or a “no,” again, depending on the chosen ideology. Too bad, everyone is being forced into a “yes” or “no” none of which is probably the right answer. At the opposite camp of this dangerous polarization, different questions can be asked, but the answers would probably be the same: a “yes” or a “no.” Who are Mr. Erdoğan and his men? Islamists? Former Islamists? Islamists with a hidden agenda? Mild Islamists? Muslim democrats? Neo-libertarians? Liberal Muslims? Champions of democracy and free speech? Champions of democracy and free speech only when democracy and free speech would suit their ideology? Jihadists? Disguised Jihadists? “Without blood” Jihadists? A bizarre –but pragmatic—bunch of pro-western and at the same time pro-Islam politicians? Koranic dogmatists? Part-time Koranic dogmatists? Traitors? Again, anyone can give his/her choice of answers to those questions. Too bad, again, we would either get a “yes” or a “no” depending on the dogmatic belief of the person who answers.Probably no one in either camp is a traitor. Probably not all secular Turks are Islam-hating despots. Probably not all pious Muslims in Mr Erdoğan's entourage are Jihadists, disguised or otherwise. Probably some in the secular camp are more liberal than their opponents; and vice versa. There are probably fake, part-time liberals in both camps. There are probably fascists in both camps too.

There are probably Kemalist dogmatists like there are Koranic dogmatists. There are probably Kemalist hypocrites like there are Koranic hypocrites. All that, however, does not change the fact that there is a war between the ones who want to “Islamize” Turkey through overt and covert means and the ones who want to block this goal through overt and covert means. The chosen weaponry in this war changes from time to time, ranging from democracy to judiciary and, as a last resort, to tanks on the streets of Ankara which, in practice, means the “nation's democratic choice” is not always a perfect shield. Of course, the “nation's will” is a powerful ammunition for its possessor. But not sufficient to win the war, especially when the other camp possesses the ultimate weaponry. This brings us to the dangerous concept of the “nation's will.” I have previously cited numerous examples to illustrate that “nation's will” cannot always guarantee democracy or good governance.



A deadlock situation:

I would bet, by the way, that in the unwanted event of an “unpopular coup” the “nation's will” would probably show up in the form of 70 percent support for that coup if in two years' time a coup constitution is put to referendum (the “nation” had given a 92 percent seal of approval to the 1980 coup and its constitution). That is one good reason why Mr. Erdoğan wisely refrains from putting to national vote issues like, say, a permanent invasion of northern Iraq, relations with the United States or the execution of Abdullah Öcalan. This is a deadlock situation. Mr. Erdoğan and his men will no doubt use all possible democratic means to advance their political agenda which clearly is an Islamization of Turkey. Similarly, the opponents of that political agenda will use every tactic to block it, democratic or otherwise. Too sad, this, like the war in the Southeast, is a war with no winners. Battles can be won or lost, but this is a losing war for all.

[Anatolia]

Maybe forum owner should change the forum name from israelforum to turkeyforum.:)