World calling for support of Islam

[ranchcer]

The rapid rise and spread of Islam didn't go unnoticed among World religious and political leaders who are turning to moderate islam in their search for a strong ally to help in their fight against religious extremism and terrorism despite uncertain political implications and difficult issues such as the Sharia laws, religious freedom, equality and human rights, dignity of women, gay rights, etc

The french philosopher, Bernard-Henry Levy remains a staunch supporter of moderate Islam as opposed to Islamic Fundamentalism. Long before anyone else, he backed the Afghans against the Taliban regime and rallied to the cause of communist dissidents like the Chechen s or the Bosnian Muslims.

World leader Obama with a strong approval rating, reached out to moderate Islam and distanced himself from Bush's foreign policies by placing emphasis on mutual respect and understanding rather than pressing for reforms or for a democracy agenda for the Arab World.

Finally, the Head of the Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI during his recent visit of the ME praised King Abdullah II and Islamic scholars for their initiative of dialogue and cooperation to defeat Radical Islam.

Is the Western World unduly raising Hope that by giving a stronger voice to moderate Islam the hateful ideologies of Radical Islam can be defeated? :rolleyes:

[Yala]

I think the term "moderate Islam" is offensive. We don't say "moderate Christianity" or "moderate Judaism," even though there are fundamentalist types of both who are bad, although not as violent in number as the fundamentalist Muslims.

There is Islam and then there are Islamic Jihadists / Islamic fundamentalists. I don't think we are winning anybody over by calling it "moderate Islam." This whole branding thing is so dumb IMHO. In the end it doesn't matter what we choose to support, it matters what the Muslims will choose.

[Reffo]

In the end it doesn't matter what we choose to support, it matters what the Muslims will chooseI totally agree but our own behaviour has a bearing on what they would more likely choose. If we end up giving them too many carrots to sway them against choosing the Jihadis, then they will have a vested interest to ensure that at least the threat of Jihadis will hang over us (in order to keep the carrots coming their way)....

Conversely, if we attack all Muslims indiscriminately then we will push all of them directly into the arms of the Jihadis.

So, it is a balancing act. Some 'carrots', some 'sticks' but we have to behave in such a way that they themselves will recognize as THEIR self interest not to include even a small vestige of Jihadis...

Easy to say .... hard to do .....

[ranchcer]

I think the term "moderate Islam" is offensive. We don't say "moderate Christianity" or "moderate Judaism," even though there are fundamentalist types of both who are bad, although not as violent in number as the fundamentalist Muslims.

There is Islam and then there are Islamic Jihadists / Islamic fundamentalists. I don't think we are winning anybody over by calling it "moderate Islam." This whole branding thing is so dumb IMHO. In the end it doesn't matter what we choose to support, it matters what the Muslims will choose.

I agree but Christianity and Judaism repudiate fundamentalists who would ignore our Laws, cut deal with or overrule our government by taking up arms to implement their religious concepts.
However, some political strategies are shaped on the assumption that moderate Islam does exist. An example of moderate Islam could be characterised by a peace-loving religion whose Islamic teachings could change the perception of Talibans as heroes for their great love of Islam in Pakistan children's eyes.

[ranchcer]

I totally agree but our own behaviour has a bearing on what they would more likely choose. If we end up giving them too many carrots to sway them against choosing the Jihadis, then they will have a vested interest to ensure that at least the threat of Jihadis will hang over us (in order to keep the carrots coming their way)....

Conversely, if we attack all Muslims indiscriminately then we will push all of them directly into the arms of the Jihadis.

So, it is a balancing act. Some 'carrots', some 'sticks' but we have to behave in such a way that they themselves will recognize as THEIR self interest not to include even a small vestige of Jihadis...

Easy to say .... hard to do .....
Of course Reffo.. Carrots and sticks. Men belong to the animal Kingdom :D

[bararallu]

I think the term "moderate Islam" is offensive. We don't say "moderate Christianity" or "moderate Judaism," even though there are fundamentalist types of both who are bad, although not as violent in number as the fundamentalist Muslims.

There is Islam and then there are Islamic Jihadists / Islamic fundamentalists. I don't think we are winning anybody over by calling it "moderate Islam." This whole branding thing is so dumb IMHO. In the end it doesn't matter what we choose to support, it matters what the Muslims will choose.

This is a hard issue. I can see why e.g., Pipes uses it, and also how it damages places like secular Turkey. Its problematic I give you that.

[Yala]

This is a hard issue. I can see why e.g., Pipes uses it, and also how it damages places like secular Turkey. Its problematic I give you that.

And in reality there is no "moderate Islam." There are people who practice Islam and some are moderate and some are not. Moderate can only describe the followers of a religion, not the religion itself.

[bararallu]

And in reality there is no "moderate Islam." There are people who practice Islam and some are moderate and some are not. Moderate can only describe the followers of a religion, not the religion itself.

I totally understand the argument, I also understand that an arbitrary line needed to be drawn in the sand, mostly in western countries, that would allow for people to speak in... well... moderate tones. It was never the nature of the message but rather it's political expediency. Not unlike 1. the wringing of hands around the "peace process," 2. "political wing" vs "military wing"... which in the case of the Hizbullies the West was smacked down by Nasrallah, per LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30536_Britain_Bans_Military_Wing_of_Hizballah_Nasr allah_Laughs). All this nouveau phraseology and inventive memes amount to very little tangibly, but it grants Western governments (rather than extremist theists) an ability to do diplomacy...er... politics. my 2c...

[Reffo]

Of course Reffo.. Carrots and sticks. Men belong to the animal Kingdom :DI sometimes think that such a comparison would be an insult to animals :D

Seriously though, it was just a figure of speech, I take your point about the image that it conjures up but I could not think of a more concise way of conveying the message. Any suggestions?

[ranchcer]

I sometimes think that such a comparison would be an insult to animals :D

Seriously though, it was just a figure of speech, I take your point about the image that it conjures up but I could not think of a more concise way of conveying the message. Any suggestions?

Not really...As you say, it is a tricky one. While i appreciate your efforts to work out a well-balanced and digestible sticks and carrots diet for the muslims, it raises one doubt in my mind. At the end of the day, will not they hate you much more for the sticks than they will like you for the carrots?:unsure:
Humans usually do...

[Achihud]

I think the term "moderate Islam" is offensive. We don't say "moderate Christianity" or "moderate Judaism," even though there are fundamentalist types of both who are bad, although not as violent in number as the fundamentalist Muslims.

There is Islam and then there are Islamic Jihadists / Islamic fundamentalists. I don't think we are winning anybody over by calling it "moderate Islam." This whole branding thing is so dumb IMHO. In the end it doesn't matter what we choose to support, it matters what the Muslims will choose.
The only thing that keeps a muslim 'moderate' is fear of defeat for his religion. Osama's islam is the real islam, if not then the Quran was deliberately written to bring forth and ensure a continued presence of a significant portion of radicalized islam! Bottom line; it's peas and carrots in the same bottle.

[Reffo]

Not really...As you say, it is a tricky one. While i appreciate your efforts to work out a well-balanced and digestible sticks and carrots diet for the muslims, it raises one doubt in my mind. At the end of the day, will not they hate you much more for the sticks than they will like you for the carrots? :unsure: Humans usually do... Just to clear it up, when I said that the comparison would be an insult to animals, I didn't restrict that just to Muslims, I meant the whole human race ... but never mind ignore me, I sometimes get like that in my darker moments ;)

Now back to the carrots and the sticks, I think you are right but I don't know how else to go about it. As I mentioned: Just 'carrots' would entail risks as would just 'sticks' .....

On a more trivial note, when my son was about 3 to 4 (maybe 5 I forget now), I tried to channel his behaviour by sticking up a chart on a wall. Whenever he behaved well, I drew a smiley face. Whenever he misbehaved I drew a crying face. At the end of a given period, if he would have more smileys he would get a present, otherwise he would get nothing...

I have to tell you, the whole scheme turned out to be a big flop. He was a lively little fellow and he was mischievous so he did score a few crying faces on the chart and after a while he developed his own defense ..... he threw a tantrum and scribbled over the crying faces.

So, I guess I haven't learnt the moral of that experience. Maybe I am wrong with this carrot and stick stuff. But then again, I would like to think that the majority of Muslims are older and wiser than 3 - 5 year old kids ....

[Y. Shulamith]

Why aren't the moderate Muslims ever heard of speaking out against terrorism????

Some "moderate Muslims" pfffffffttttttttt.

[ranchcer]

Just to clear it up, when I said that the comparison would be an insult to animals, I didn't restrict that just to Muslims, I meant the whole human race ... but never mind ignore me, I sometimes get like that in my darker moments ;)

Now back to the carrots and the sticks, I think you are right but I don't know how else to go about it. As I mentioned: Just 'carrots' would entail risks as would just 'sticks' .....

On a more trivial note, when my son was about 3 to 4 (maybe 5 I forget now), I tried to channel his behaviour by sticking up a chart on a wall. Whenever he behaved well, I drew a smiley face. Whenever he misbehaved I drew a crying face. At the end of a given period, if he would have more smileys he would get a present, otherwise he would get nothing...

I have to tell you, the whole scheme turned out to be a big flop. He was a lively little fellow and he was mischievous so he did score a few crying faces on the chart and after a while he developed his own defense ..... he threw a tantrum and scribbled over the crying faces.

So, I guess I haven't learnt the moral of that experience. Maybe I am wrong with this carrot and stick stuff. But then again, I would like to think that the majority of Muslims are older and wiser than 3 - 5 year old kids ....

Cool stuff:cool: and my apologies for going a bit off topic but in the past i geared mysel up for a little lad like yours and I read all the pedagical material I could lay my hands on. Then, came a girl, a dream come true now turning seventeen.This year, i'll take my chance again to see if I can draw up schemes too and and what backup plans i get from my boy so that we can learn and grow wise...together.:)

[andak01]

Why aren't the moderate Muslims ever heard of speaking out against terrorism????

Because when we do, we are called liars or not true Muslims etc. by the Clash of Civilization folks. Muslims have spoken out against terrorism, written books against terrorism and marched against terrorism, but you'd never know it because tens of thousands of people marching in Casablanca against terrorism isn't hanging in the blogs for a years while extreme statements by Khomeini who has been dead for three decades are still on every bloggers top ten list.

[Mil]

Posted by Andak01:

thousands of people marching in Casablanca against terrorism

You mean a king sponsored exercise?

[andak01]

Posted by Andak01:

thousands of people marching in Casablanca against terrorism

You mean a king sponsored exercise?

Kind of what I was talking about. You can't deny that something happened, therefore it must be for all the wrong reasons. No. Even the king can't force that many people into the streets. But if he could have, wouldn't that prove that he is against terrorism? Or would you consider the thousands arrested and sent to oblivion proof of that? If the king flew to Pakistan and came out of a cave with the head of Bin Laden in his hand, you'd figure some way to question whether or not he supports Bin Laden.

[Mil]

Posted by Andak01:

Kind of what I was talking about. You can't deny that something happened, therefore it must be for all the wrong reasons.

Yeah - it's an officially sponsored exercise. It's if Barak Obama would organize a demonstration. Sounds pretty stupid and Obama is an elected official.

No. Even the king can't force that many people into the streets.

You ever lived in an authoritarian regime? I did. I remember also going on 1st of May demonstrations.

But if he could have, wouldn't that prove that he is against terrorism? Or would you consider the thousands arrested and sent to oblivion proof of that?

Yeah - the monarch is protecting the regime. Terrorism in Morocco did not start yesterday, and especially the islamic terrorism that targets the regime in particular. Somehow most of this terrorism has political undertones. For the same reasons thousands rot in jails all over the Arab world.

If the king flew to Pakistan and came out of a cave with the head of Bin Laden in his hand, you'd figure some way to question whether or not he supports Bin Laden.

The king is scared sh***tless of Osama. But anyways, this was a government sanctioned and initiated event; and not a grass-root effort of any kind.

Why should I not question how genuine this is?

[Mediocrates]

Most people have no public stance on it either way. Like our own retards here in the US the reaction most people have is to wince and hope they go away.